Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 16 Mai 2002
Thursday 16 May 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r GymraegQuestions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language
- 3Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau Cyngor Celfyddydau CymruFunctions and Responsibilities of the Arts Council of Wales
- 4Adeiladu Canolfan Mileniwm CymruBuilding the Wales Millennium Centre
- 6Pecyn Dathlu’r Jiwbilî AurThe Golden Jubilee Celebrations Toolkit
- 6Sianelau Teledu yn SaesnegTV Channels in English
- 9Y Gyllideb ar gyfer DiwylliantThe Culture Budget
- 11Cymorth i Gerddorion Ifanc yng NghymruSupport for Young Musicians in Wales
- 12Gweithredu Adroddiad Tasker WatkinsImplementing the Tasker Watkins Report
- 13Cwestiytnau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y CynulliadQuestions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business
- 13Adolygiad Canol Tymor y Cynllun Datblygu Cefn GwladMid-term Review of the Rural Development Plan
- 14Datblygu Cnydau YnniDeveloping Energy Crops
- 15Cynhyrchu Bwyd Organig yng NghymruProducing Organic Food in Wales
- 16Clwy’r Traed a’r GenauFoot and Mouth Disease
- 17Mewnforio Cig yn AnghyfreithlonImporting Illegal Meat
- 19Iawndal Amaeth-ariannol ar gyfer Da BywAgri-monetary Compensation for Livestock
- 20Troseddu mewn Ardaloedd GwledigCrime in Rural Areas
- 21Mynediad i Wasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng Nghefn GwladAccess to Public Services in Rural Areas
- 22Premiwm Blynyddol DefaidSheep Annual Premium
- 23Y Strategaeth i Bobl HŷnThe Older Persons’ Strategy 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
- 60Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 60Dadl FerShort Debate
- 73Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Y Strategaeth i Bobl HŷnThe Older Persons’ Strategy | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 17 | 0 | 27 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 9 | 13 | 22 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 9 | 8 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM1053Motion NDM1053 | 45 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg
Questions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language
Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Functions and Responsibilities of the Arts Council of Wales
A oes unrhyw gynlluniau i gyflwyno newidiadau i swyddogaethau a chyfrifoldebau Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru? (OAQ17655)
Are there any plans to introduce changes to the functions and responsibilities of the Arts Council of Wales? (OAQ17655)
Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 3
Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
The Arts Council of Wales has recently revised its structure, and it should now be given the opportunity to bed down. There are no plans at present to introduce changes to its functions and responsibilities, but a quinquennial review is planned for later this financial year, together with the arts council’s review of its new structure, following 12 months of implementation. The Culture Committee and I will carefully consider any recommendations arising from those reviews.
Mae Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru wedi diwygio’i strwythur yn ddiweddar, a dylid rhoi cyfle’n awr iddo ymsefydlogi. Nid oes unrhyw fwriad ar hyn o bryd i gyflwyno newidiadau i’w swyddogaethau a’i gyfrifoldebau, ond bwriedir cynnal adolygiad pum-mlynyddol yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, ynghyd ag adolygiad cyngor y celfyddydau o’i strwythur newydd, ar ôl 12 mis o’i weithredu. Bydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant a minnau’n ystyried yn ofalus unrhyw argymhellion sy’n codi o’r adolygiadau hynny.
Cyhoeddwyd papur ymgynghori sy’n awgrymu y dylai Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru drosglwyddo’i gyfrifoldebau am ariannu llenyddiaeth i Gyngor Llyfrau Cymru ac i’r Academi Gymreig. Mae rhai yn teimlo y gallai hynny fod yn fuddiol i awduron a chyhoeddwyr Cymru. A fydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant yn trafod goblygiadau hynny?
A consultation paper has been published suggesting that the Arts Council of Wales should transfer its responsibility for funding literature to the Welsh Books Council and the Welsh Academy. Some feel that that could be beneficial to authors and publishers in Wales. Will the Culture Committee discuss the implications of that?
In line with what happened for previous transfers of funding, it would be appropriate for the Committee to discuss the outcomes of the arts council’s current consultation exercise. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to do so when arts council officials are present, but we will certainly find a way to discuss it.
Yn unol â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd ar gyfer trosglwyddiadau arian blaenorol, byddai’n briodol i’r Pwyllgor drafod canlyniadau ymgynghoriad presennol cyngor y celfyddydau. Efallai y byddai’n fwy priodol gwneud hynny pan yw swyddogion cyngor y celfyddydau’n bresennol, ond byddwn yn sicr o ganfod modd i’w drafod.
Given that national flagship companies account for a large part of the Arts Council of Wales’s budget, will you consider funding institutions with national status in Wales directly from your own budget? We currently fund some of our major cultural institutions, such as the National Museums and Galleries of Wales and the National Library of Wales, to name only two. That would leave the arts council free to do its important work in developing community arts.
O ystyried mai cwmnïau cenedlaethol o bwys sy’n mynd â rhan helaeth o gyllideb Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, a wnewch ystyried ariannu sefydliadau sydd â statws cenedlaethol yng Nghymru’n uniongyrchol o’ch cyllideb eich hun? Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn ariannu rhai o’n prif sefydliadau diwylliannol, fel Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru a Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, ac enwi dim ond dau. Byddai hynny’n rhyddhau cyngor y celfyddydau i wneud ei waith pwysig o ddatblygu celfyddydau cymunedol.
Several people have put forward that opinion, but I do not intend to do that at present. However, as I signalled with the funding of chamber orchestras, I do not regard the Arts Council of Wales as having a monopoly on the provision of grants. Section 32 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 provides us with flexibility. However, that would be a big decision to make, following a turbulent time for the arts council, and I am not considering it at present.
Mae sawl un wedi cynnig y farn honno, ond nid wyf yn bwriadu gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, fel y dangosais yn achos ariannu cerddorfeydd siambr, nid wyf yn ystyried bod gan Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru fonopoli ar ddarparu grantiau. Mae adran 32 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn rhoi hyblygrwydd i ni. Fodd bynnag, byddai hynny’n benderfyniad mawr, ar ôl cyfnod cythryblus i gyngor y celfyddydau, ac nid wyf yn ei ystyried ar hyn o bryd.
Sut ydych yn sicrhau bod Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn rhoi chwarae teg i grwpiau gwirfoddol fel y grŵp yn Nhrefyclo, Powys, sy’n ceisio gwella neuadd eglwys St Edwards er mwyn parhau i hyrwyddo’r celfyddydau perfformio?
How are you ensuring that the Arts Council of Wales gives a fair deal to voluntary groups such as that in Knighton, Powys, which is trying to improve St Edwards church hall in order to continue to promote the performing arts?
The arts council now functions within the overall strategy of ‘Creative Future: Cymru Creadigol’, which I announced last February, and which gives a strong role to voluntary groups. The arts council’s current five-year plan, on which it is consulting, is set firmly within that strategy, and strongly reflects the role of voluntary groups. The arts council has an excellent record in providing lottery grants to Powys, which has received over £7 million. That would probably be the route for that sort of group to take.
Mae cyngor y celfyddydau’n gweithredu bellach yn ôl strategaeth gyffredinol ‘Creative Future: Cymru Creadigol’, a gyhoeddais fis Chwefror diwethaf, sy’n rhoi rôl bwerus i grwpiau gwirfoddol. Mae cynllun pum mlynedd presennol cyngor y celfyddydau, y mae’n ymgynghori arno, wedi’i osod yn bendant o fewn y strategaeth honno, ac mae’n rhoi lle amlwg i rôl grwpiau gwirfoddol. Mae gan gyngor y celfyddydau record ragorol o ran darparu grantiau loteri i Bowys, sydd wedi derbyn dros £7 miliwn. Mae’n debyg mai hwnnw fyddai’r llwybr i grŵp o’r fath ei ddilyn.
Adeiladu Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru
Building the Wales Millennium Centre
How many north Wales contractors are/will be involved in building the Wales Millennium Centre? (OAQ17649)
Faint o gontractwyr o ogledd Cymru sydd/a fydd yn gysylltiedig ag adeiladu Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru? (OAQ17649)
I am pleased to say that we expect to procure slate for the front of the building from north Wales, worked by north Wales slaters. Subcontracting, however, is still at an early stage, with only the highly specialised steelwork having been sub-contracted so far. North Wales contractors may win subcontracted work as the project progresses, and I will be pleased to give you more information when it becomes available.
Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud ein bod yn disgwyl caffael llechi ar gyfer blaen yr adeilad o’r Gogledd, wedi’u gweithio gan weithwyr llechi o’r Gogledd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r isgontractio mewn cyfnod cynnar o hyd, a dim ond y gwaith dur tra arbenigol sydd wedi’i isgontractio hyd yn hyn. Efallai y bydd contractwyr o’r Gogledd yn ennill gwaith o dan isgontract wrth i’r prosiect fynd yn ei flaen, a byddaf yn falch o roi rhagor o wybodaeth ichi pan fydd ar gael.
I do not have a supplementary question. I am pleased with that answer, but I hope that you will remember the need for jobs for north Wales.
Nid oes gennyf gwestiwn atodol. Yr wyf yn fodlon ar yr ateb hwnnw, ond gobeithiaf y byddwch yn cofio am yr angen am swyddi i’r Gogledd.
Do you agree that there is a danger of promoting the idea that people in north Wales begrudge Cardiff the millennium centre, when the real problem is that such projects do not come to north Wales also?
A ydych yn cytuno bod perygl o hyrwyddo’r syniad bod pobl y Gogledd yn gwarafun canolfan y mileniwm i Gaerdydd, er mai’r wir broblem yw nad yw prosiectau o’r fath yn dod i’r Gogledd hefyd?
There is an unfortunate perception that north Wales does not get a full share of the money available, and I hope that, if we reach Alison’s second question for today, question 5, I will be able to dispel that, because it is not the case.
Mae canfyddiad anffodus nad yw’r Gogledd yn cael cyfran lawn o’r arian sydd ar gael, a gobeithiaf, os cyrhaeddwn ail gwestiwn Alison am heddiw, cwestiwn 5, y byddaf yn gallu chwalu’r canfyddiad hwnnw, oherwydd nid felly y mae.
Yr wyf yn falch o glywed yr ateb i gwestiwn Alison Halford. Wrth sôn am y manteision economaidd a ddaw i’r Gogledd yn sgîl datblygiadau yn y brifddinas, yr ydych wedi dweud y bydd Cymru gyfan yn elwa o’r cyfleoedd a ddaw os bydd cais Caerdydd i fod yn Brifddinas Diwylliant Ewrop 2008 yn llwyddiannus. A wnewch chi ddatganiad ar y cyfleoedd hyn? Pa fanteision economaidd yr ydych yn eu rhagweld ar gyfer y Gogledd?
I was pleased to hear your answer to Alison Halford’s question. In referring to the economic advantages that will come to north Wales as a result of developments in the capital, you have said that the whole of Wales will benefit from the opportunities afforded if Cardiff’s bid to be Cultural Capital of Europe 2008 is successful. Will you make a statement on these opportunities? What economic advantages do you anticipate for north Wales?
If Cardiff’s bid is successful, that will reflect well on all of Wales. Ideas have flooded into Cardiff from the whole of Wales on projects that can be taken forward in the next few years. I am aware of this, because some of them have come via me. I am delighted that people throughout Wales want to be engaged in this exciting project.
Os bydd cais Caerdydd yn llwyddo, bydd hynny’n adlewyrchu’n dda ar Gymru gyfan. Mae syniadau wedi llifo i Gaerdydd o Gymru gyfan am brosiectau y gellir eu datblygu yn y blynyddoedd nesaf hyn. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o hyn, gan fod rhai ohonynt wedi dod drwof fi. Yr wyf wrth fy modd bod pobl ledled Cymru am gymryd rhan yn y prosiect cyffrous hwn.
Pecyn Dathlu’r Jiwbilî Aur
The Golden Jubilee Celebrations Toolkit
What arrangements has the Minister made to distribute the Golden Jubilee celebrations toolkit to organisations and official bodies in Wales? (OAQ17662)
Pa drefniadau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u gwneud ar gyfer dosbarthu pecyn dathlu’r Jiwbilî Aur i sefydliadau a chyrff swyddogol yng Nghymru? (OAQ17662)
The Golden Jubilee toolkit was distributed in Wales by the Golden Jubilee office in November 2001 to a wide range of local and community bodies. It has been possible to download the toolkit, in English and Welsh, from the Golden Jubilee website since September 2001.
Dosbarthwyd pecyn y Jiwbilî Aur yng Nghymru gan swyddfa’r Jiwbilî Aur yn Nhachwedd 2001 i amrywiaeth eang o gyrff lleol a chymunedol. Mae modd llwytho’r pecyn, yn y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg, i lawr o wefan y Jiwbilî Aur ers Medi 2001.
What do you say in response to complaints that information on organising the Jubilee celebrations has not been made as readily available as it could have been, and that officialdom has not appeared to be enthusiastic about the Jubilee? Is this Government fully committed to the monarchy and to ensuring that all those who wish to celebrate 50 glorious years of Her Majesty’s reign across Wales can do so?
Beth a ddywedwch mewn ymateb i gwynion nad yw’r wybodaeth am drefnu dathliadau’r Jiwbilî ar gael mor rhwydd ag y gallasai fod, ac nad yw’r byd swyddogol wedi ymddangos yn frwdfrydig am y Jiwbilî? A yw’r Llywodraeth hon wedi llwyr ymrwymo i’r frenhiniaeth ac i sicrhau bod pawb sy’n dymuno dathlu’r 50 mlynedd gogoneddus o deyrnasiad Ei Mawrhydi ledled Cymru’n gallu gwneud hynny?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Order. This question is not about the monarchy. It is about the Jubilee celebrations.
Trefn. Nid yw’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud â’r frenhiniaeth. Mae’n ymwneud â dathliadau’r Jiwbilî.
The Golden Jubilee toolkits, and the funding of the celebrations, are the responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I am certain that DCMS officials have been no less enthusiastic in Wales than in the rest of the UK. However, the matter is DCMS’s responsibility.
Mae pecynnau’r Jiwbilî Aur, ac ariannu’r dathliadau, yn gyfrifoldeb i’r Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon. Yr wyf yn sicr y bu swyddogion yr adran honno yr un mor frwdfrydig yng Nghymru ag y buont yng ngweddill y DU. Fodd bynnag, yr Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon sy’n gyfrifol am y mater hwn.
Sianelau Teledu yn Saesneg
TV Channels in English
What is the Minister doing to ensure that all viewers are able to receive the four main television channels in their mother tongues?
Beth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod yr holl wylwyr yn gallu derbyn y pedair prif sianel deledu yn eu mamiaith?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Order. That is not the tabled question.
Trefn. Nid hwnnw yw’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd.
Will the Minister give consideration to ensuring that English-speaking viewers are able to receive all four main television channels in their mother tongue? (OAQ17663)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried sicrhau bod gwylwyr Saesneg eu hiaith yn gallu derbyn y pedair prif sianel deledu yn eu mamiaith? (OAQ17663)
I apologise, Llywydd. I did not have my glasses on.
Ymddiheuraf, Lywydd. Nid oeddwn yn gwisgo fy sbectol.
You will appreciate, David, that that was a significantly different question.
Byddwch yn sylweddoli, David, fod y cwestiwn hwnnw’n un tra gwahanol.
Broadcasting is not a devolved matter. Three of the four main analogue television channels in Wales broadcast in English only. Furthermore, with the gradual roll-out of digital television, Channel 4 will be available to all viewers in Wales. The majority of programmes broadcast on S4C are in English, with Welsh-language programmes at peak hours. Most of the Welsh programmes may be viewed with English subtitles.
Nid yw darlledu’n fater a ddatganolwyd. Mae tair o’r pedair prif sianel deledu analog yng Nghymru’n darlledu yn y Saesneg yn unig. At hynny, wrth i deledu digidol gael ei gyflwyno’n raddol, bydd Channel 4 ar gael i’r holl wylwyr yng Nghymru. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r rhaglenni a ddarlledir ar S4C yn rhai Saesneg, gyda rhaglenni Cymraeg ar yr oriau brig. Gellir gwylio’r rhan fwyaf o’r rhaglenni Cymraeg gydag is-deitlau Saesneg.
Nevertheless, a significant number of people living in largely English-speaking areas of Wales, such as Monmouthshire, cannot receive all the English-language channels. Do you agree that that is unfair and that they should have access to all four television channels in their mother tongue?
Er hynny, mae nifer sylweddol o bobl sy’n byw mewn ardaloedd o Gymru sy’n Saesneg eu hiaith gan mwyaf, fel sir Fynwy, yn methu â derbyn yr holl sianeli Saesneg. A ydych yn cytuno bod hynny’n annheg ac y dylent allu derbyn pob un o’r pedair sianel deledu yn eu mamiaith?
The situation is far from satisfactory. It is the mirror-image of the situation Nick Bourne referred to earlier in the term, when he pointed out that people living in east Powys are unable to receive Welsh television. The development of digital television will overcome this. Wales has suffered this situation for many decades and it is not satisfactory. However, I repeat that 75 per cent of the Welsh-language programmes on S4C have English subtitles.
Mae’r sefyllfa ymhell o fod yn foddhaol. Mae’n adlewyrchiad o’r sefyllfa y cyfeiriodd Nick Bourne ati’n gynharach yn y tymor, pan dynnodd sylw at y ffaith nad yw pobl yn nwyrain Powys yn gallu derbyn teledu o Gymru. Bydd datblygu teledu digidol yn fodd i oresgyn hyn. Mae Cymru’n dioddef y sefyllfa hon ers degawdau lawer ac nid yw’n foddhaol. Fodd bynnag, dywedaf eto fod is-deitlau Saesneg ar gyfer 75 y cant o’r rhaglenni Cymraeg ar S4C.
Do you agree that it is important that all households in Wales can receive BBC Wales, HTV Wales and S4C, and that it should be made as easy as possible for Welsh households to receive Welsh channels? If the people of Wales are to be properly informed about matters which directly affect them, and if we are to ensure that community, civic and political life benefits from better informed participation, it is important that we ensure that provision.
A ydych yn cytuno’i bod yn bwysig bod pob teulu yng Nghymru’n gallu derbyn BBC Wales, HTV Wales ac S4C, ac y dylid ei gwneud mor rhwydd â phosibl i deuluoedd Cymru dderbyn sianeli Cymru? Os ydym am hysbysu pobl Cymru’n briodol am faterion sy’n effeithio arnynt yn uniongyrchol, ac os ydym i sicrhau bod y bywyd cymunedol, dinesig a gwleidyddol yn cael budd o gyfranogi mwy gwybodus, mae’n bwysig inni sicrhau’r ddarpariaeth honno.
It is important that people receive information about the country in which they live and the events that take place there in their chosen language. That is increasingly important now that the Assembly has been established. I am concerned when I stay in hotels in Wales that only provide English television channels. I would be grateful if Members would complain, as I do, if they come across this problem and ask the management of the hotels to make an effort to receive Welsh television channels.
Mae’n bwysig bod pobl yn cael gwybodaeth am y wlad lle y maent yn byw ac am ddigwyddiadau yno yn eu dewis iaith. Mae hynny’n fwyfwy pwysig ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Mae’n peri pryder i mi pan arhosaf mewn gwestai yng Nghymru nad ydynt ond yn darparu sianeli teledu o Loegr. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddai’r Aelodau’n cwyno, fel y gwnaf fi, os ydynt yn profi’r broblem hon a gofyn i reolwyr y gwestai wneud ymdrech i dderbyn sianeli teledu o Gymru.
In the past, you have assured us that you aim to improve the reception of Welsh television channels throughout Wales, possibly by using transmitters on English soil. What action have you taken on this?
Yn y gorffennol, yr ydych wedi’n sicrhau mai’ch bwriad yw gwella derbyniad sianeli teledu o Gymru ledled Cymru, efallai drwy ddefnyddio trosglwyddyddion yn Lloegr. Pa gamau yr ydych wedi’u cymryd i wireddu hyn?
I am vigorously discussing the issue with the UK Government and with broadcasters. I attended a meeting at which this issue was addressed earlier this week.
Yr wyf yn trafod y mater hwn yn egnïol gyda Llywodraeth y DU a chyda’r darlledwyr. Bûm yn bresennol mewn cyfarfod lle y trafodwyd y mater hwn yn gynharach yr wythnos hon.
Do you agree that it is important that everyone in Wales can get some television reception? For some, receiving any television, let alone programmes in their mother tongue, is a luxury. Do you agree that the roll-out of digital television means that the proportion of people who will not be able to receive free-to-air television will increase significantly?
A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn bwysig bod pawb yng Nghymru’n gallu derbyn rhywfaint o deledu? I rai, mae derbyn rhyw fath o deledu, heb sôn am raglenni yn eu mamiaith, yn foeth. A ydych yn cytuno bod ehangu teledu digidol yn golygu y bydd cyfran fwy o lawer o bobl yn methu â derbyn teledu sydd ar gael am ddim?
I agree that there are major concerns about the roll-out of digital television. I discuss the issue with Kim Howells regularly. The UK Government has set an availability target of 95 per cent. However, at this point, what to do about the other 5 per cent has not been addressed in sufficient detail. I am sure that it will be addressed. There are difficult decisions to be made in the coming years. However, in this day and age, it is unacceptable that anyone should be unable to receive television.
Cytunaf fod pryderon mawr ynglŷn â chyflwyno teledu digidol. Yr wyf yn trafod y mater yn rheolaidd â Kim Howells. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi gosod targed argaeledd o 95 y cant. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, ni thrafodwyd yn ddigon manwl beth y dylid ei wneud am y 5 y cant arall. Yr wyf yn sicr yr ymdrinnir â hynny. Bydd yn rhaid gwneud penderfyniadau anodd yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Fodd bynnag, yn yr oes sydd ohoni, mae’n annerbyniol bod rhai nad ydynt yn gallu derbyn teledu.
Y Gyllideb ar gyfer Diwylliant
The Culture Budget
What percentage of the culture budget has gone to north Wales ventures in the last financial year, and what percentage of the budget is planned to go to north Wales ventures in the current financial year? (OAQ17605)
Pa ganran o’r gyllideb ar gyfer diwylliant a roddwyd i fentrau yn y Gogledd yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf a pha ganran o’r gyllideb y bwriedir ei rhoi i fentrau yn y Gogledd yn y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol? (OAQ17605)
I hope that Members will bear with me, given the detail in this answer; the culture budget is distributed in many different ways.
Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau’n amyneddgar â mi, o ystyried manylder yr ateb hwn; caiff y gyllideb ar gyfer diwylliant ei dosbarthu drwy lawer dull a modd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 9
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Order. Members may bear with the Minister, but I will not. If there is detail, it should be published in appropriate form, that is, in a written statement on the internet. Questions to Ministers is a chance for Members to ask questions, not for Ministers to make surrogate statements.
Trefn. Efallai y bydd yr Aelodau’n amyneddgar â’r Gweinidog, ond ni fyddaf fi. Os oes manylion, dylid eu cyhoeddi ar ffurf briodol, hynny yw, mewn datganiad ysgrifenedig ar y rhyngrwyd. Mae cwestiynau i’r Gweinidogion yn gyfle i’r Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau, nid i’r Gweinidogion wneud dirprwy ddatganiadau.
It is impossible to give an accurate answer without giving at least a bare minimum of detail, Presiding Officer.
Mae’n amhosibl rhoi ateb cywir heb roi o leiaf ychydig o fanylion, Lywydd.
The latest round of Arts Council of Wales lottery applications allocated 42 per cent of the total grant available to north Wales. Thirty-one per cent of Sports Council for Wales funding under local development was spent in north Wales last year; 32 per cent expenditure is planned for this year. Since the lottery began, 30 per cent of all regional awards have gone to north Wales. Thirty per cent of the Council of Museums in Wales grants were awarded to north Wales, rising to 36 per cent this year. Forty-two per cent of Welsh Language Board grants to mentrau iaith go to north Wales.
Yn y cylch diweddaraf o geisiadau loteri Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, dyrannwyd 42 y cant o gyfanswm y grant a oedd ar gael i’r Gogledd. Y llynedd gwariwyd 31 y cant o arian Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru ar gyfer datblygu lleol yn y Gogledd; bwriedir gwario 32 y cant yno eleni. Ers dechrau’r loteri, aeth 30 y cant o’r holl ddyfarniadau rhanbarthol i’r Gogledd. Dyfarnwyd 30 y cant o grantiau’r Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru i’r Gogledd, a bydd hynny’n codi i 36 y cant eleni. Mae 42 y cant o grantiau Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg i’r mentrau iaith yn mynd i’r Gogledd.
I thank you for that impressive list of figures, Minister, which I will digest when I see it in writing. However, the hard truth is that the only theatre in my area, which you know well, is falling apart and desperately needs a face-lift. Given that £104 million is being spent on the Wales Millennium Centre, will you assure us that you will find £22 million from the culture budget to upgrade that theatre, so that it can offer a better standard of service to the people of north Wales?
Diolchaf i chi am y rhestr ffigurau drawiadol honno, Weinidog, y byddaf yn ei hystyried pan welaf hi mewn ysgrifen. Fodd bynnag, y gwir plaen yw bod yr unig theatr yn fy ardal i, y gwyddoch amdani’n iawn, yn dadfeilio a bod taer angen ei hadnewyddu. O wybod bod £104 miliwn yn cael ei wario ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru, a wnewch ein sicrhau y byddwch yn dod o hyd i £22 filiwn yn y gyllideb ar gyfer diwylliant i wella’r theatr honno, fel y gall gynnig gwasanaeth o well safon i bobl y Gogledd?
I cannot give that commitment this morning. As you know, £20 million comprises the arts council’s budget for more than one year. Other projects in north Wales, and in your constituency, might be unhappy if the whole of the arts council’s budget were to be spent on one theatre. However, I assure you that the arts council is working closely with Flintshire County Council to find a solution to the problem.
Ni allaf roi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw y bore yma. Fel y gwyddoch, £20 miliwn yw cyllideb cyngor y celfyddydau am flwyddyn a mwy. Mae’n bosibl y byddai prosiectau eraill yn y Gogledd, ac yn eich etholaeth, yn anfodlon pe byddai’r cyfan o gyllideb cyngor y celfyddydau’n cael ei wario ar un theatr. Er hynny, yr wyf yn eich sicrhau bod cyngor y celfyddydau’n cydweithio’n agos â Chyngor Sir y Fflint i ganfod ateb i’r broblem.
A oes arian wedi’i glustnodi o fewn y gyllideb i annog cynyrchiadau a grwpiau sy’n cymryd rhan yn y celfyddydau yn y Gogledd, i ymweld â chanolfannau yn y De, ac i’r gwrthwyneb? Os nad oes, a wnewch chi weithio ar hyn, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun datblygiadau gyda Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru?
Has money been allocated within the budget to encourage productions and groups that participate in the arts in north Wales to tour centres in south Wales, and vice versa? If not, will you consider this, particularly in the light of developments with the Wales Millennium Centre?
Jenny Randerson. Thank you for that question; I know of your interest in this particular issue. You have my commitment that we are actively considering how to spend the earmarked £2 million, which will come on stream in 2004 when the millennium centre is completed. Expenditure will be based on the principle that there should be a two-way flow of productions.
Diolch i chi am y cwestiwn hwnnw; gwn am eich diddordeb yn y mater penodol hwn. Yr wyf yn rhoi ymrwymiad i chi ein bod yn ystyried o ddifrif sut i wario’r £2 filiwn a glustnodwyd, a fydd ar gael yn 2004 ar ôl cwblhau canolfan y mileniwm. Bydd y gwariant yn seiliedig ar yr egwyddor y dylid cael llif o gynyrchiadau i’r ddau gyfeiriad.
I welcome those figures, Jenny. However, do you agree that we need to guard against the idea that south Wales should get more funding because more people live there? Do you agree that we should give priority to considering the potential impact of a project on attracting visitors, irrespective of existing population densities?
Croesawaf y ffigurau hynny, Jenny. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn cytuno bod angen inni ochel y syniad y dylai’r De gael mwy o arian am fod mwy o bobl yn byw yno? A ydych yn cytuno y dylem roi blaenoriaeth i ystyried effaith bosibl prosiect ar ddenu ymwelwyr, beth bynnag fo’r trwch poblogaeth presennol?
I assume that you are referring to the importance of a strategic approach. I agree that that is important. Part of my strategy takes account of the importance of tourism, and I know that north Wales has particular attractions to offer. My answer to Alison’s original question shows that north Wales gets more than its share of grant, given its population. It is important that we consider the potential of projects, rather than population figures alone.
Cymeraf eich bod yn cyfeirio at y pwysigrwydd o gael dull gweithredu strategol. Cytunaf fod hynny’n bwysig. Mae rhan o’m strategaeth yn ystyried pwysigrwydd twristiaeth, a gwn fod gan y Gogledd atyniadau penodol i’w cynnig. Mae fy ateb i gwestiwn gwreiddiol Alison yn dangos bod y Gogledd yn cael mwy na’i gyfran o grantiau, o ystyried ei boblogaeth. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried potensial prosiectau, yn hytrach na’r ffigurau poblogaeth yn unig.
Cymorth i Gerddorion Ifanc yng Nghymru
Support for Young Musicians in Wales
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch y cymorth sydd ar gael i gerddorion ifanc yng Nghymru? (OAQ17657)
Will the Minister make a statement on the support available for young musicians in Wales? (OAQ17657)
Lottery awards of about £500,000 were given in the last financial year to projects involving music and young people, including work to develop the national youth choir and orchestra of Wales, the BBC National Orchestra of Wales and Community Music Wales projects. The music development fund has also committed £8 million over three years through the grants for education support and training scheme, and funding for that programme has been extended for a further year.
Rhoddwyd dyfarniadau loteri o tua £500,000 yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf i brosiectau a oedd yn ymwneud â cherddoriaeth a phobl ifanc, gan gynnwys gwaith i ddatblygu côr a cherddorfa ieuenctid cenedlaethol Cymru, Cerddorfa Genedlaethol Gymreig y BBC a phrosiectau Cerdd Gymunedol Cymru. Mae’r gronfa ddatblygu cerddoriaeth hefyd wedi neilltuo £8 miliwn dros dair blynedd drwy’r cynllun grantiau cynnal addysg a hyfforddiant, ac mae’r cyllid i’r rhaglen honno wedi’i ymestyn am flwyddyn ychwanegol.
A wnewch ystyried cynllun noddi i gerddoriaeth fyw yn dilyn model Llydaw sy’n cysylltu cerddoriaeth â thwristiaeth?
Will you consider a sponsorship scheme for live music, following the Breton model, which links music to tourism?
The Arts Council of Wales is consulting on a five-year development plan and is considering a youth music fund. Live music is an important priority for the arts council. I am interested in the projects in Brittany, so I will take them into account.
Mae Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru’n ymgynghori ar gynllun datblygu pum mlynedd ac yn ystyried cronfa gerddoriaeth ieuenctid. Mae cerddoriaeth fyw’n flaenoriaeth bwysig gan gyngor y celfyddydau. Ymddiddoraf yn y prosiectau yn Llydaw, felly fe’i cymeraf i ystyriaeth.
Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 11
Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I declare an interest, as my daughter is a music teacher. What funding is available towards meeting the cost of loaning or purchasing musical instruments, particularly for school pupils from low-income families? Will the music development fund that you mentioned be able to continue for a number of years?
Datganaf fuddiant, gan fod fy merch yn athrawes gerdd. Pa arian sydd ar gael at gost benthyca neu brynu offerynnau cerdd, yn enwedig i ddisgyblion ysgol o deuluoedd sydd ar incwm isel? A fydd y gronfa ddatblygu cerddoriaeth y cyfeiriasoch ati’n gallu parhau am nifer o flynyddoedd?
The music development fund has been extended for a further year—it was originally to be for three years—while we consider a youth arts fund and youth music fund. I am aware of the issues and concerns that you raise, and I will ensure that they are considered in further developments.
Mae’r gronfa ddatblygu cerddoriaeth wedi’i hymestyn am flwyddyn ychwanegol—i ddechrau yr oedd i barhau am dair blynedd—tra ein bod yn ystyried cronfa gelfyddydau ieuenctid a chronfa gerddoriaeth ieuenctid. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r materion a’r pryderon yr ydych yn eu codi, a byddaf yn sicrhau y cânt eu hystyried mewn datblygiadau pellach.
What action has the Minister taken to ensure propriety in funding orchestras?
Pa gamau a gymerodd y Gweinidog i sicrhau gwedduster wrth ariannu cerddorfeydd?
The allocation of grants involves increasingly stringent requirements in terms of assessment and of the artistic ability of the group. The arts council provides professional input into the process.
Mae’r dyrannu ar grantiau’n cynnwys gofynion mwyfwy caeth o ran asesu a gallu artistig y grŵp. Mae cyngor y celfyddydau’n darparu mewnbwn proffesiynol i’r broses hon.
Are you aware of the innovative work done by IMMTECH, which is based in my constituency, with young musicians, particularly those on the New Deal for Musicians scheme?
A ydych yn ymwybodol o waith arloesol IMMTECH, sydd wedi’i leoli yn fy etholaeth i, gyda cherddorion ifanc, yn enwedig y rhai sydd yng nghynllun y Fargen Newydd i Gerddorion?
I am, and it is an exciting project. The First Minister visited it last week and I plan to visit it in the future; I hope that you will be there also.
Ydwyf, ac mae’n brosiect cyffrous. Aeth Prif Weinidog Cymru i ymweld ag ef yr wythnos diwethaf a bwriadaf ymweld ag ef yn y dyfodol; gobeithiaf y byddwch chithau yno.
Gweithredu Adroddiad Tasker Watkins
Implementing the Tasker Watkins Report
What discussions has the Minister had with the Welsh Rugby Union about the implementation of the Tasker Watkins report? (OAQ17636)
Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru ynghylch gweithredu adroddiad Tasker Watkin? (OAQ17636)
I have not had formal meetings or discussions with the WRU about the Tasker Watkins report. However, points made in the report have been referred to in informal discussions on Welsh rugby with a range of individuals.
Nid wyf wedi cael cyfarfodydd neu drafodaethau ffurfiol ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru am adroddiad Tasker Watkins. Fodd bynnag, fe gyfeiriwyd at bwyntiau a wneir yn yr adroddiad mewn trafodaethau anffurfiol am rygbi Cymru gydag amryw o unigolion.
Do you share my concern that the Welsh Rugby Union is losing money when the Scottish Rugby Union is making money? Is it not time that the WRU bit the bullet and accepted the recommendation of the Tasker Watkins report at the end of this month?
A ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder bod Undeb Rygbi Cymru’n colli arian tra bo Undeb Rygbi’r Alban yn gwneud arian? Onid yw’n bryd i Undeb Rygbi Cymru dderbyn y sefyllfa ac argymhellion adroddiad Tasker Watkins ddiwedd y mis yma?
It is important that the Welsh Rugby Union comes to terms with the need for a modernised structure for a modern professional game. It is important that the union takes that on board, takes action on 26 May and makes decisions. We understand that those decisions will not be easy. I certainly would not tell it what decisions it needs to make.
Mae’n bwysig bod Undeb Rygbi Cymru’n derbyn yr angen am strwythur modern i gêm broffesiynol fodern. Mae’n bwysig bod yr undeb yn derbyn hynny, yn gweithredu ar 26 Mai ac yn gwneud penderfyniadau. Yr ydym yn deall na fydd y penderfyniadau hynny’n rhai hawdd. Yn sicr, ni fyddwn yn dweud wrtho pa benderfyniadau y mae angen iddo’u gwneud.
What discussions have you had with the First Minister about keeping your nose out of matters that do not concern you?
Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda Phrif Weinidog Cymru am beidio â gwthio’ch trwyn i faterion nad oes a wnelont â chi?
Your opinion is not shared by the vast majority. It is interesting that many people have said, ‘Yes, perhaps it was bold to make a statement, but it was jolly well time that that was said.’
Nid yw’r mwyafrif helaeth yn rhannu’ch barn. Mae’n ddiddorol bod llawer wedi dweud, ‘Ie, efallai mai peth beiddgar oedd gwneud datganiad, ond yr oedd yn hen bryd dweud hynny.’
A gytunwch ei bod yn bwysig i’r rhai sy’n gorfod gwneud y penderfyniadau gael llonydd i ystyried adroddiad Tasker Watkins, sy’n sylweddol a phwysig, heb ymyrraeth allanol nad yw ond yn cymylu’r mater?
Do you agree that it is important that those charged with making the decisions be left in peace to consider the substantial and important Tasker Watkins report, without external intervention, which only clouds the issue?
There has been plenty of external intervention. Every newspaper that I read is intervening in this issue. The Tasker Watkins report was produced six months ago and the committee said that a meeting should be held by the end of February at the latest. If the committee suggested the end of February, the end of May is a reasonable timescale.
Bu llawer o ymyrraeth allanol. Mae pob papur newydd a ddarllenaf yn ymyrryd yn y mater hwn. Lluniwyd adroddiad Tasker Watkins chwe mis yn ôl a dywedodd y pwyllgor y dylid cynnal cyfarfod erbyn diwedd Chwefror fan bellaf. Os mai diwedd Chwefror a awgrymodd y pwyllgor, mae diwedd Mai’n rhoi cyfnod rhesymol.
Cwestiytnau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad
Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business
Adolygiad Canol Tymor y Cynllun Datblygu Cefn Gwlad
Mid-term Review of the Rural Development Plan
In the mid-term review of the rural development plan, will the Minister consider establishing a menu of environmental works that can be accessed by all farmers? (OAQ17630)
Adeg adolygiad canol tymor y cynllun datblygu cefn gwlad, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried sefydlu rhestr o fannau lle ceir gwaith amgylcheddol, fel bod y wybodaeth ar gael i bob ffermwr? (OAQ17630)
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 13
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
The future of environmental schemes is a key concern of the common agricultural policy mid-term review. An agri-environmental working group has been established to consider the role of such schemes. I am content for it to produce a menu of environmental works that can be accessed by all farmers.
Dyfodol y cynlluniau amgylcheddol yw un o’r prif faterion y bydd yr adolygiad canol tymor o’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin yn ymwneud â hwy. Sefydlwyd gweithgor amaeth-amgylcheddol i ystyried rôl cynlluniau o’r fath. Yr wyf yn fodlon iddo gynhyrchu rhestr o waith amgylcheddol y gall pob ffermwr gael mynediad ati.
As all farms are modulated and only a small percentage are accepted into Tir Gofal, what can you do to provide more equity for those who cannot access an agri-environmental scheme?
Gan fod yr holl ffermydd wedi’u modiwleiddio a chan mai dim ond canran fach a dderbynnir i Tir Gofal, beth y gallwch ei wneud i roi mwy o degwch i’r rhai na allant gael mynediad i gynllun amaeth-amgylcheddol?
The group is considering whether it would be appropriate to develop a broad and shallow agri-environmental scheme for the future, which would be accessible to all farmers in Wales and have a range of options, including improving landscape, protecting habitats, animal welfare, and encouraging biodiversity and collective working partnerships.
Mae’r grŵp yn ystyried a fyddai’n briodol datblygu cynllun amaeth-amgylcheddol eang a bas at y dyfodol, y byddai modd i holl ffermwyr Cymru gael mynediad iddo ac a fyddai ag amryw o ddewisiadau, gan gynnwys gwella’r tirwedd, gwarchod cynefinoedd, lles anifeiliaid, a hybu bioamrywiaeth a phartneriaethau gweithio cyfunol.
The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee was informed yesterday of the business reviews that are being undertaken. You said, correctly, that too many people had chosen the agriculture development advisory scheme, which had log-jammed the system. This morning I heard from a farmer who wants to diversify by developing a fishing complex on his farm. He has contacted all the agencies, but the business consultation will not happen until September. This means that work will not commence until 2004 at the earliest. Do you agree that we must find a way of doing these reviews much more quickly in order to save the rural economy?
Hysbyswyd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ddoe am yr adolygiadau busnes yr ymgymerir â hwy. Dywedasoch, yn gywir, fod gormod wedi dewis y gwasanaeth datblygu a chyngori amaethyddol, a oedd wedi gorlenwi’r system. Y bore yma clywais gan ffermwr sy’n dymuno amrywiaethu drwy ddatblygu canolfan bysgota ar ei fferm. Mae wedi cysylltu â’r holl asiantaethau, ond ni fydd yr ymgynghoriad busnes tan fis Medi. Golyga hynny na fydd y gwaith yn dechrau tan 2004 ar y cynharaf. A ydych yn cytuno bod rhaid inni ganfod modd i wneud yr adolygiadau hyn yn gynt o lawer er mwyn achub yr economi wledig?
I know the farmer and I am aware of the proposed project. He has e-mailed me this morning and I will ensure that his e-mail is dealt with as quickly as possible and his concerns addressed.
Yr wyf yn adnabod y ffermwr a gwn am y prosiect arfaethedig. Anfonodd neges e-bost ataf y bore yma a byddaf yn sicrhau y caiff ei neges e-bost ei thrafod cyn gynted â phosibl ac y bydd ei bryderon yn derbyn sylw.
Datblygu Cnydau Ynni
Developing Energy Crops
What steps has the Minister taken to assist Welsh farmers in developing energy crops? (OAQ17644)
Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi eu cymryd i gynorthwyo ffermwyr Cymru i ddatblygu cnydau ynni? (OAQ17644)
The woodland development and biomass strategy group, which is one of three groups that I established last year to develop initiatives to diversify sources of income in Wales, is considering the scope to develop energy crops and will present its draft action plan at the end of this month.
Mae’r grŵp strategaeth datblygu coetir a biomas, sef un o’r tri o grwpiau a sefydlais y llynedd i ddatblygu mentrau i amrywiaethu’r ffynonellau incwm yng Nghymru, yn ystyried y posibiliadau ar gyfer datblygu cnydau ynni a bydd yn cyflwyno’i gynllun gweithredu drafft ddiwedd y mis yma.
Energy crops can have an important role in sustainable development. What are you doing to facilitate the transfer from grazing land to energy crops?
Gall cnydau ynni fod â rôl bwysig mewn datblygu cynaliadwy. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i hwyluso’r newid o dir pori i gnydau ynni?
This will be included in the group’s strategy so that we are fully informed as to the best way forward for Wales.
Cynhwysir hynny yn strategaeth y grŵp fel y cawn ein hysbysu’n llawn o ran y ffordd orau ymlaen i Gymru.
Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd am botensial cnydau ynni? A ydych wedi esbonio iddi nad yw osgoi delio â cheisiadau cynllunio yn bolisi hirdymor derbyniol?
What discussions have you had with the Minister for Environment regarding the potential of energy crops? Have you explained to her that avoiding decisions on planning applications is not an acceptable long-term policy?
Cynhyrchu Bwyd Organig yng Nghymru
Producing Organic Food in Wales
A gawn ni ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog ar y camau y mae wedi eu cymryd i hybu cynhyrchu bwyd organig yng Nghymru? (OAQ17619)
Will the Minister make a statement on the action he has taken to promote the production of organic food in Wales? (OAQ17619)
Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi a datblygu’r sector organig ledled Cymru. Mae sector organig cryf yn rhan allweddol o’n gweledigaeth i greu dyfodol ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth amrywiol, gynaliadwy ac o ansawdd uchel yng Nghymru.
The Assembly Government is committed to supporting and developing the organic sector throughout Wales. A strong organic sector is a key part of our vision to create a future for varied, sustainable and high quality agriculture in Wales.
Mae delwedd bwyd organig pur yn cyd-fynd â’r syniad o gefn gwlad agored ac awyr iach. Un peth yw cynhyrchu, peth arall yw gwerthu. Faint o ymdrech sydd yn cael ei wneud i geisio dwyn perswâd ar y diwydiant twristiaeth i hybu’r defnydd o fwyd organig?
The image of pure organic food sits well with the idea of an open countryside and fresh air. Production is one thing, but selling that produce is another. What efforts are being made to try to persuade the tourism industry to promote the use of organic food?
Mae dyletswydd arnom i gyd i hybu twristiaeth drwy ddefnyddio pob math o gynnyrch o Gymru gyfan. Pan fyddaf yn teithio o amgylch Cymru byddaf yn synnu bod cynifer o westai gwely a brecwast yn hysbysebu brecwast Saesneg ac nid brecwast Cymreig. Rhaid inni ddatblygu bwyd Cymreig er mwyn hybu twristiaeth a delwedd Cymru dros y byd. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Mae rhai gwestai yn coginio bwyd organig yn unig. Mae hynny wedi tyfu dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Rhaid hybu bwyd organig o Gymru ac mae grŵp yn ystyried hynny dan nawdd partneriaeth bwyd-amaeth Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Mae’n rhan bwysig o’r ffordd ymlaen i ffermio yng Nghymru.
We all have a duty to promote tourism by using all kinds of produce from all parts of Wales. When I travel around Wales I am surprised that so many bed and breakfasts advertise English breakfasts rather than a Welsh breakfast. We must develop Welsh food to promote tourism and the image of Wales throughout the world. That is important. Some hotels only offer organic food. That has developed over the last few years. We must promote organic food from Wales, and a group, under the aegis of the Welsh Development Agency’s agri-food partnership is considering exactly how that can be done. It is an important part of the way forward for farming in Wales.
How can the Assembly assist the organic sector to prevent it being undermined by cheaper foreign imports and higher rates of subsidies in other countries?
Sut y gall y Cynulliad helpu’r sector organig i sicrhau na chaiff ei danseilio gan fewnforion tramor rhatach a chyfraddau cymhorthdal uwch mewn gwledydd eraill?
You have raised an important question. How seriously should we consider ongoing subsidies? That must be considered in view of what is happening elsewhere in Europe; the UK Government is considering it.
Yr ydych wedi codi cwestiwn pwysig. Pa mor ddifrif y dylem ystyried y cymorthdaliadau cyfredol? Rhaid ystyried hynny yng ngolwg yr hyn sy’n digwydd mewn mannau eraill yn Ewrop; mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ei ystyried.
Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau
Foot and Mouth Disease
Will the Minister make a statement on any changes that have been introduced regarding the way his department will try to prevent/deal with any future foot and mouth disease outbreak? (OAQ17675)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar unrhyw newidiadau a gyflwynwyd o ran sut y bydd ei adran yn ceisio atal neu ymdrin ag unrhyw argyfwng pellach o ran clwy’r traed a’r genau? (OAQ17675)
The responsibility for dealing with a foot and mouth disease outbreak continues to rest with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. However, we are in the process of transferring powers, in agreement with DEFRA—which has not registered any objection—to deal with farm animal health issues. We await the results of the Anderson inquiry and the Follett inquiry to be fully briefed on what the future should hold in terms of controlling foot and mouth disease.
Mae’r cyfrifoldeb dros ddelio ag achosion o glwy’r traed a’r genau’n dal i fod gan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym ar ganol trosglwyddo pwerau, gyda chydsyniad yr adran—sydd heb fynegi unrhyw wrthwynebiad—i ymdrin â materion iechyd anifeiliaid fferm. Yr ydym yn disgwyl canlyniadau ymchwiliad Anderson ac ymchwiliad Follett er mwyn cael ein briffio’n llawn am yr hyn sy’n debygol o fod yn yr arfaeth o ran rheoli clwy’r traed a’r genau.
Why has the UK not banned imports from countries where animals are suffering from foot and mouth disease, and why does the UK not have border controls similar to those of Ireland, New Zealand and Australia, to check meat imports?
Pam nad yw’r DU wedi gwahardd mewnforion o wledydd lle y mae anifeiliaid yn dioddef gan glwy’r traed a’r genau, a pham nad oes gan y DU reolaethau ar ei ffiniau yn debyg i’r hyn sydd gan Iwerddon, Seland Newydd ac Awstralia, i archwilio mewnforion cig?
Ireland has no such border controls. I am familiar with the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and it is completely open. Animals travel back and forth regularly, which allows the subsidy systems of both countries to be investigated. The Irish border is not closed. I accept that New Zealand and Australia have stronger controls than the European Union. The UK has no such power and it would not be effective for it to introduce unilateral power, given the fact that the UK’s only international border is porous. However, the EU must consider that carefully, and it is doing so as we speak.
Nid oes gan Iwerddon reolaethau o’r fath ar ei ffiniau. Yr wyf yn gyfarwydd â’r ffin rhwng Gogledd Iwerddon a Gweriniaeth Iwerddon ac mae’n gwbl agored. Mae anifeiliaid yn teithio’n ôl ac ymlaen yn rheolaidd, fel y gellir ymchwilio i systemau cymhorthdal y ddwy wlad. Nid yw ffin Iwerddon wedi’i chau. Derbyniaf fod gan Seland Newydd ac Awstralia reolaethau cryfach na rhai’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Nid yw’r DU yn meddu ar bŵer o’r fath ac ni fyddai’n effeithiol iddi gyflwyno pŵer unochrog, o gofio bod unig ffin ryngwladol y DU yn hydraidd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r UE ystyried hynny’n ofalus, ac mae’n gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd.
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 17
Fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog, mae rheoliadau newydd yn cael eu cyflwyno yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd i ymateb i unrhyw ddigwyddiad tebyg yn y dyfodol. Gŵyr y Gweinidog bod rheoliadau enseffalopathi sbyngffurf trosglwyddadwy Lloegr wedi cael eu cyflwyno ym mis Ebrill. A fydd y Gweinidog yn cyflwyno rheoliadau tebyg i Gymru, ac os felly, a wnaiff sicrhau bod trafodaeth fanwl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn neu yn y Pwyllgor cyn bod y rheoliadau hynny’n dod yn ddeddf gwlad?
As the Minister knows, new regulations are being introduced in England at present to respond to any such event in the future. The Minister knows that England’s transmissible spongiform encephalopathies regulations were introduced in April. Will the Minister introduce similar regulations for Wales, and, if so, will he ensure that a detailed discussion is held either in Plenary or in Committee before those regulations become law?
Y Pwyllgor sydd yn dewis yr hyn y mae’n ei drafod. Gwn fod y rheoliadau yn cael eu hystyried yn fanwl yn San Steffan, ac ystyriwn beth fydd yn digwydd pan fydd y trafodaethau hynny ar ben.
The Committee decides what it discusses. I know that these regulations are being considered in detail in Westminster, and we will consider what steps are necessary when those discussions have been concluded.
Mewnforio Cig yn Anghyfreithlon
Importing Illegal Meat
Q5 Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 17
C5 Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
What discussions has the Minister had with Westminster colleagues regarding the import of illegal meat? (OAQ17676)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd y Gweinidog gyda’i gyd-Weinidogion yn San Steffan ynghylch mewnforio cig yn anghyfreithlon? (OAQ17676)
I have raised the matter with Margaret Beckett on several occasions in the monthly ministerial meetings of all four UK administrations. The National Assembly and its officials are represented on the relevant working groups, which are considering the matter at present.
Yr wyf wedi codi’r mater hwn sawl gwaith gyda Margaret Beckett yng nghyfarfodydd gweinidogol misol pedair gweinyddiaeth y DU. Mae cynrychiolaeth gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’i swyddogion ar y gweithgorau perthnasol, sy’n ystyried y mater hwn ar hyn o bryd.
You will be aware that there is an ongoing inquiry into illegal meat imports, and written submissions must be in by tomorrow. Will you give an indication of any submissions by the Government in relation to the need to have more stringent controls at ports? As you know, port authorities at present, do not have powers to stop and search, nor do local authorities, although they are given the primary responsibility for control of imports. Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise therefore give it a lower control. What is the administration’s view on that, and has it formed part of any submission to that Committee?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod ymchwiliad ar hyn o bryd i fewnforion cig anghyfreithlon, a rhaid i’r cyflwyniadau ysgrifenedig gyrraedd erbyn yfory. A wnewch roi gwybod am unrhyw gyflwyniadau gan y Llywodraeth mewn cysylltiad â’r angen i gael rheolaethau mwy caeth mewn porthladdoedd? Fel y gwyddoch, nid oes gan yr awdurdodau porthladd bwerau ar hyn o bryd i atal a chwilio, na’r awdurdodau lleol ychwaith, er mai iddynt hwy y rhoddir y prif gyfrifoldeb dros reoli mewnforion. Felly mae Tollau Tramor a Chartref Ei Mawrhydi’n darparu llai o reolaeth ar hyn. Beth yw barn y weinyddiaeth am hynny, ac a fu hynny’n rhan o unrhyw gyflwyniad i’r Pwyllgor hwnnw?
I understand that the products of animal origin legislation will come into effect on 22 May, giving greater powers to enforcement officers. HM Customs and Excise is looking at running an awareness campaign over the peak summer holiday period and the Metropolitan Police will begin training detective dogs shortly. This needs to be considered carefully; there is scope for tightening up on imports into the EU from countries where foot and mouth disease exists. I have said so publicly on many occasions and it has been reiterated in ministerial meetings.
Deallaf y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth ar gynhyrchion sy’n tarddu o anifeiliaid yn dod i rym ar 22 Mai, gan roi mwy o bwerau i swyddogion gorfodi. Mae Tollau Tramor a Chartref Ei Mawrhydi’n ystyried cynnal ymgyrch hybu ymwybyddiaeth yn ystod cyfnod brig gwyliau’r haf a bydd Heddlu Llundain yn dechrau hyfforddi cŵn synhwyro cyn hir. Rhaid ystyried hyn yn ofalus; mae lle i dynhau o ran mewnforion i’r UE o wledydd lle y mae clwy’r traed a’r genau. Dywedais hynny’n gyhoeddus lawer gwaith ac ailddatganwyd hynny yn y cyfarfodydd gweinidogol.
On Assembly Government actions, we have no power over border controls, but I have written to all airlines using Welsh airports to remind them of their responsibilities in terms of informing passengers that they should not bring meat into the UK from countries where foot and mouth disease is endemic. There are direct flights from those countries to Wales.
Ynghylch camau gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, nid oes gennym bŵer dros reolaethau ar ffiniau, ond yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at yr holl gwmnïau awyrennau sy’n defnyddio meysydd awyr yng Nghymru i’w hatgoffa am eu cyfrifoldebau o ran hysbysu teithwyr na ddylent ddod â chig i’r DU o wledydd lle y mae clwy’r traed a’r genau’n endemig. Mae ehediadau uniongyrchol o’r gwledydd hynny i Gymru.
The process of control involves five different agencies, which creates much confusion about jurisdiction. What discussions have you had with your colleagues in the Westminster Government to untangle this mess?
Mae’r broses rheolaeth yn cynnwys pum asiantaeth wahanol, sy’n peri llawer o ddryswch ynghylch awdurdodaeth. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â’ch cyd-aelodau yn Llywodraeth San Steffan i ddatrys yr aflerwch hwn?
HM Customs and Excise has primary responsibility for dealing with imports. It is charged with that responsibility at ports and airports. The new legislation to be introduced will give enforcement officers greater powers; the lead agency must be HM Customs and Excise.
Gan Dollau Tramor a Chartref EM y mae’r prif gyfrifoldeb dros drafod mewnforion. Ymddiriedwyd y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw iddo mewn porthladdoedd a meysydd awyr. Bydd y ddeddfwriaeth newydd sydd i’w chyflwyno’n rhoi mwy o bwerau i’r swyddogion gorfodi; yr asiantaeth arweiniol o reidrwydd yw Tollau Tramor a Chartref EM.
Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at y peryglon sydd yn codi pan fo cig yn cael ei fewnforio’n anghyfreithlon. Mae hynny’n gallu creu pob math o broblemau o ran iechyd anifeiliaid yn y wlad hon. Y mae’r Gweinidog a’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn barod iawn i gyflwyno mesurau llym wrth ymdrin â ffermwyr, ond pan fo’n fater o geisio rheoli mewnforio cig anghyfreithlon, mae’n ymddangos bod y Gweinidog yn cymryd agwedd tra gwahanol.
The Minister referred to the dangers that arise when meat is illegally imported. That can create all sorts of animal health problems in this country. The Minister and the Labour Government are only too happy to introduce stringent measures when dealing with farmers, but when it is a matter of controlling the importation of illegal meat, the Minister seems to take a very different line.
Ni wrandawodd Rhodri Glyn ar yr hyn a ddywedais. Dywedais droeon bod angen i ni ystyried tynhau’r rheolau presennol ar draws Ewrop. Sefydlwyd y rheolau presennol ar symudiadau ar ôl siarad gyda milfeddygon. Gobeithiaf y bydd y rheolau hynny’n cael eu llacio unwaith eto yn yr haf.
Rhodri Glyn did not listen to my answer. I said many times that we need to consider tightening the current regulations across Europe. The current restrictions on movement were put in place after consultation with vets. I hope that those restrictions will be relaxed again in the summer.
Iawndal Amaeth-ariannol ar gyfer Da Byw
Agri-monetary Compensation for Livestock
Will the Minister make a statement on any discussions he has had with his UK counterpart regarding agri-monetary compensation for livestock? (OAQ17641)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch unrhyw drafodaethau y mae wedi eu cynnal â’r gweinidog cyfatebol yn y DU ynghylch iawndal amaeth-ariannol ar gyfer da byw? (OAQ17641)
It is a matter of public record that I have consistently pressed the UK Government to claim the maximum amount of agri-monetary compensation available, and I am extremely disappointed that it has felt unable to draw down that support.
Mae wedi’i gofnodi’n gyhoeddus fy mod wedi pwyso’n barhaus ar Lywodraeth y DU i hawlio’r swm mwyaf o iawndal amaeth-ariannol sydd ar gael, ac yr wyf yn siomedig iawn ei bod wedi teimlo nad yw’n gallu hawlio’r cymorth hwnnw.
Will you therefore take unilateral action to support the livestock industry, particularly the dairy sector, given that many farmers are leaving it to go into meat production, which will affect the whole livestock industry in Wales?
Gan hynny, a wnewch gymryd camau unochrog i gynorthwyo’r diwydiant da byw, yn enwedig y sector llaeth, o gofio bod llawer o ffermwyr yn ei adael i ddechrau cynhyrchu cig, a fydd yn effeithio ar yr holl ddiwydiant da byw yng Nghymru?
The scope for unilateral support outside the common agricultural policy is limited, as are the resources that the Assembly Government has at its disposal. However, we will do all that we can to assist dairy farmers in particular, who are currently experiencing difficulties.
Mae’r cyfle i roi cymorth unochrog y tu allan i’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin yn gyfyngedig, fel y mae’r adnoddau sydd ar gael i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, fe wnawn bopeth o fewn ein gallu i helpu ffermwyr llaeth yn benodol, gan eu bod yn profi anawsterau ar hyn o bryd.
Have you met with a member of the Treasury team to discuss this matter?
A ydych wedi cwrdd ag aelod o dîm y Trysorlys i drafod y mater hwn?
The Assembly does not deal directly with the Treasury on these matters; the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is the lead agency. We make our representations to DEFRA, which then takes up the matter with the Treasury. That practice is outlined in the concordats and has always been in place in terms of the Assembly’s relationship with certain Whitehall departments.
Nid yw’r Cynulliad yn delio’n uniongyrchol â’r Trysorlys ar y materion hyn; Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig yw’r asiantaeth arweiniol. Yr ydym yn cyflwyno’n sylwadau i’r adran honno, sydd wedyn yn codi’r mater gyda’r Trysorlys. Amlinellir yr arfer hwnnw yn y concordatau ac felly y bu erioed o ran perthynas y Cynulliad â rhai o adrannau Whitehall.
O ran y sector llaeth, a fyddech yn derbyn yr effeithir ar brisiau llaeth presennol gan gryfder y bunt sydd yn codi’n uniongyrchol o bolisïau ariannol y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan? Iawndal yw hwn am golledion ffermwyr o ganlyniad i bolisïau’r Llywodraeth. Pam nad yw’n mynnu bod DEFRA’n tynnu i lawr yr arian y mae gan ffermwyr yng Nghymru yr hawl iddo?
As far as the milk sector is concerned, would you accept that current milk prices are affected by the strength of the pound, which is a direct result of the monetary policies of the Labour Government in Westminster? This is merely compensation for the losses that farmers have suffered as a result of the Government’s policies. Why does he not insist that DEFRA draws down the money to which farmers in Wales are entitled?
Troseddu mewn Ardaloedd Gwledig
Crime in Rural Areas
Will the Minister make a statement concerning the incidence of crime in rural areas? (OAQ17672)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch amlder achosion o droseddu mewn ardaloedd gwledig? (OAQ17672)
The Assembly Government places a high priority on building safer communities throughout Wales. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 has created a partnership approach to crime reduction, which is as relevant to rural areas as urban areas in Wales. The fear and general level of crime are significantly lower in rural areas, but that has not led to any complacency. Police forces and partner agencies are engaged in a range of crime reduction interventions that address the problems of rural communities
Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i greu cymunedau mwy diogel ledled Cymru. Mae Deddf Trosedd ac Anhrefn 1998 wedi creu dull partneriaeth o leihau troseddu, sy’n berthnasol i ardaloedd gwledig ac ardaloedd trefol yng Nghymru fel ei gilydd. Mae ofn troseddu a lefel gyffredinol troseddu’n is o lawer mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ond nid yw hynny wedi arwain at hunanfodlonrwydd o gwbl. Mae heddluoedd a’r asiantaethau partner yn cymryd rhan mewn amryw o ymyriadau lleihau troseddu sy’n ymdrin â phroblemau cymunedau gwledig.
Burglary from rural properties has increased by approximately 6 per cent in the last year. Will you outline the discussions that you have had with the chief constables of police forces in Wales on how this matter may be resolved?
Bu cynnydd o tua 6 y cant mewn lladrata o dai yng nghefn gwlad y llynedd. A wnewch chi amlinellu’r trafodaethau a gawsoch â phrif gwnstabliaid heddluoedd yng Nghymru am y modd y gellid datrys y mater hwn?
This is not primarily a matter for me; the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has primary responsibility for discussions with the police. However, I will pass your comments on to her so that, if appropriate, she can take the matter up with the relevant bodies.
Nid yw hyn yn fater i mi’n bennaf; gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau y mae’r prif gyfrifoldeb dros drafodaethau â’r heddlu. Fodd bynnag, trosglwyddaf eich sylwadau iddi hi fel y gall godi’r mater gyda’r cyrff perthnasol, os yw hynny’n briodol.
Mynediad i Wasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng Nghefn Gwlad
Access to Public Services in Rural Areas
Will the Minister make a statement on access to public services for people living in rural areas? (OAQ17617)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar fynediad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gyfer trigolion cefn gwlad? (OAQ17617)
The Assembly Government considers access to public services for people in rural areas to be a key element of its strategy to support and develop rural Wales. I am exploring a number of options in taking forward the document ‘A Winning Wales’ in rural areas and I am working closely with the rural partnership, Assembly sponsored public bodies and other partners on a range of issues. People in rural areas have a number of concerns regarding the loss of services. However, we must ensure that everything possible is done to preserve those services.
Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o’r farn bod mynediad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gyfer pobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn elfen allweddol yn ei strategaeth i gynnal a datblygu’r Gymru wledig. Yr wyf yn ymchwilio i nifer o ddewisiadau wrth fwrw ymlaen â’r ddogfen ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac yr wyf yn cydweithio’n agos â’r bartneriaeth wledig, cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad a phartneriaid eraill ar amryw o faterion. Mae gan bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig nifer o bryderon ynghylch colli gwasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau y gwneir popeth posibl i gynnal y gwasanaethau hynny.
Post offices have always been places where people can carry out a wide range of government business. That role will be further strengthened by current plans to make local post offices one stop shops. Their role in the community could be further strengthened if the rural post office network could also be used to access local government services, to provide advice on disabled parking badge applications, bus passes, home improvement grants and so on. Will you raise with local authorities the matter of the huge potential of rural post offices to help them connect with local people?
Mae’n bosibl erioed i bobl wneud amrywiaeth eang o fusnes llywodraeth mewn swyddfeydd post. Cryfheir y rôl honno ymhellach gan y cynlluniau presennol i wneud swyddfeydd post lleol yn siopau un stop. Gellid cryfhau eu rôl yn y gymuned ymhellach os gellid defnyddio’r rhwydwaith swyddfeydd post gwledig hefyd i gael mynediad at wasanaethau llywodraeth leol, i roi cyngor ar geisiadau am fathodynnau parcio i bobl anabl, tocynnau teithio am ddim ar fysiau, grantiau gwella tai ac yn y blaen. A wnewch dynnu i sylw awdurdodau lleol botensial aruthrol swyddfeydd post gwledig i’w helpu i gysylltu â phobl leol?
I have great sympathy with that viewpoint, Ann. It is important that local authorities support rural post offices. That is one of the functions of local government: to assist with services in their own areas. Consignia’s current restructuring plans do not affect rural post offices. However, the rural partnership, via the Wales co-operative centre, is currently assessing the scope for developing the one stop shops that you mentioned so that the local shop, pub, post office and any other services are located in the same building. The post office becomes, in effect, a centre for community services. We want to pursue that strongly.
Cydymdeimlaf yn fawr â’r safbwynt hwnnw, Ann. Mae’n bwysig bod awdurdodau lleol yn cefnogi swyddfeydd post gwledig. Dyna un o swyddogaethau llywodraeth leol: cynorthwyo gwasanaethau yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain. Nid yw cynlluniau ailstrwythuro presennol Consignia’n effeithio ar swyddfeydd post gwledig. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, mae’r bartneriaeth wledig, drwy ganolfan gydweithredol Cymru, yn asesu’r cyfleon i ddatblygu’r siopau un stop y cyfeiriasoch atynt fel y bydd y siop, y dafarn, y swyddfa bost leol ac unrhyw wasanaethau eraill wedi’u lleoli yn yr un adeilad. Daw’r swyddfa bost, i bob pwrpas, yn ganolfan i wasanaethau cymunedol. Yr ydym am ddilyn hynny’n egnïol.
Premiwm Blynyddol Defaid
Sheep Annual Premium
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar amlen genedlaethol y premiwm blynyddol defaid ar gyfer 2003? (OAQ17622)
Will the Minister make a statement on the sheep annual premium national envelope in 2003? (OAQ17622)
Ddydd Gwener diwethaf, cyhoeddwyd papur ymgynghori i ofyn barn y diwydiant a’r sawl â diddordebau amgylcheddol ynglŷn â’r ffordd y bydd amlen genedlaethol y premiwm blynyddol defaid yn gweithio o 2003. Mae copi o’r ddogfen honno yn y llyfrgell
Last Friday, a consultation paper was published to seek the opinions of the industry and those with environmental interests on how the national sheep annual premium envelope will work from 2003. A copy of that document is available in the library.
A wnewch chi ystyried defnyddio’r amlen genedlaethol i hyrwyddo rhai o flaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad ar gyfer datblygu’r sector amaeth yn y dyfodol?
Will you consider using the national envelope to promote some of the Assembly’s priorities for developing the agricultural sector in the future?
Mae sawl opsiwn yn y ddogfen ymgynghori ac arhosaf i glywed barn y gwahanol grwpiau â diddordeb cyn gwneud penderfyniad.
There are a number of options in the consultation document and I await the opinions of the different interest groups before I make a decision.
Mae’r mater hwn yn bwysig i’r diwydiant amaethyddiaeth. Fe’ch llongyfarchaf ar y ffordd y trafodasoch y mater yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig.
This issue is important to the agriculture industry. I congratulate you for the manner in which you have discussed the issue in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 9.47 a.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 9.47 a.m.
Y Strategaeth i Bobl Hŷn
The Older Persons’ Strategy
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan, a gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
Brian Gibbons The Deputy Minister for Health spoken in English p. 23
Brian Gibbons Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Iechyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Brian Gibbons The Deputy Minister for Health (continued) spoken in English p. 23
Brian Gibbons Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Iechyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
The number of older people in our society is increasing significantly. Over the next 20 years, the number of people of retirement age in Wales will have increased by 11 per cent to 650,000. The number of over 85-year olds will increase by a third to 82,000. We must, therefore, plan for their future, not only for this generation, but for generations to come. That is why the Welsh Assembly Government decided to develop a comprehensive and integrated strategy for older people in Wales in collaboration with all our partners and stakeholders.
Mae nifer y bobl hŷn yn ein cymdeithas yn cynyddu’n sylweddol. Dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf, bydd y nifer o bobl o oed ymddeol yng Nghymru wedi codi 11 y cant i 650,000. Bydd nifer y rhai dros 85 mlwydd oed yn cynyddu o draean i 82,000. Gan hynny, rhaid inni gynllunio ar gyfer eu dyfodol, nid yn unig ar gyfer y genhedlaeth hon, ond ar gyfer y cenedlaethau i ddod. Dyna pam y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi penderfynu datblygu strategaeth gynhwysfawr ac integredig i bobl hŷn yng Nghymru ar y cyd â’n holl bartneriaid a rhanddeiliaid.
The strategy will consider how all aspects of the National Assembly’s work impacts on older people and will provide a framework for the statutory bodies that work with the Assembly.
Bydd y strategaeth yn ystyried sut y mae pob agwedd ar waith y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn effeithio ar bobl hŷn ac yn darparu fframwaith i’r cyrff statudol sy’n gweithio gyda’r Cynulliad.
The report of the advisory group, which I chaired, is the culmination of almost a year’s deliberation, which included extensive consultation, the personal involvement of hundreds of people and the response of over 1,000 people to our questionnaires. The deliberations have also been informed by the advice of professionals and other experts, and research evidence from the University of Wales, Bangor. Therefore, the report has added authority. The advisory report contains over 100 recommendations and many proposals to improve health and social care. However, the report also examines the broader context of how older people in Wales live.
Mae adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol, yr oeddwn i’n ei gadeirio, yn ddiweddglo ar ymron i flwyddyn o drafod, a oedd yn cynnwys ymgynghori helaeth, cynnwys cannoedd o bobl ar lefel bersonol ac ymateb gan dros 1,000 o bobl i’n holiaduron. Mae’r trafodaethau wedi’u goleuo hefyd gan gyngor gweithwyr proffesiynol ac arbenigwyr eraill, a thystiolaeth ymchwil Prifysgol Cymru, Bangor. Felly, mae’r adroddiad yn meddu ar awdurdod ychwanegol. Mae’r adroddiad ymgynghorol yn cynnwys dros 100 o argymhellion a llawer o gynigion i wella gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r adroddiad yn ystyried hefyd gyd-destun ehangach y modd y mae pobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n byw.
I will comment on the report’s highlights and recommendations. Addressing ageism and other forms of discrimination against older people and promoting a positive image of these people is essential. We must recognise their potential contribution to society and older people must recognise that it is never too late for them to start living the rest of their lives. I welcome Jonathan Morgan’s support for this principle. However, amendment 1 is superfluous and adds nothing to the advisory group’s report. I have no doubt that the Welsh Assembly Government will pick up the issue of age discrimination when it responds to the consultation later in the year.
Soniaf am brif bwyntiau ac argymhellion yr adroddiad. Mae’n hollbwysig mynd i’r afael â gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran a ffurfiau eraill ar wahaniaethu’n erbyn pobl hŷn a hyrwyddo delwedd gadarnhaol o’r bobl hyn. Rhaid inni gydnabod yr hyn y mae ganddynt y potensial i’w gyfrannu i gymdeithas a rhaid i bobl hŷn sylweddoli nad yw byth yn rhy hwyr iddynt ddechrau byw gweddill eu bywyd. Croesawaf gefnogaeth Jonathan Morgan i’r egwyddor hon. Fodd bynnag, mae gwelliant 1 yn ddiangen ac nid yw’n ychwanegu dim at adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n ymdrin â mater gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran pan yw’n ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn.
Developing a dedicated research and development programme is important in order to study the context of ageing in Wales and to develop a better understanding of older people’s needs and concerns. We must also develop integrated, flexible and innovative transport schemes to address the transport needs of older people in Wales and to build on the outstanding success of our free bus transport scheme to date.
Mae’n bwysig datblygu rhaglen ymchwil a datblygu arbennig i astudio cyd-destun heneiddio yng Nghymru a meithrin gwell dealltwriaeth o anghenion a phryderon pobl hŷn. Rhaid inni hefyd ddatblygu cynlluniau trafnidiaeth integredig, hyblyg ac arloesol i ymdrin ag anghenion trafnidiaeth pobl hŷn yng Nghymru ac adeiladu ar lwyddiant eithriadol ein cynllun trafnidiaeth bws am ddim hyd yn hyn.
We must also promote older people’s participation in education and address the disincentives for older people to participate in learning. A great deal of the evidence that we heard in our deliberations pointed out many of the barriers for older people who wish to participate in lifelong learning. While we recognise that we are not in a position to change welfare benefit levels, we can do a great deal to protect the incomes of poorer older people and promote their level of income through schemes such as encouraging benefit uptake.
Yn ogystal â hynny, rhaid inni hybu cyfranogiad gan bobl hŷn mewn addysg a rhoi sylw i’r hyn sy’n eu cymell i beidio â chymryd rhan mewn dysgu. Yr oedd llawer o’r dystiolaeth a glywsom yn ein trafodaethau’n tynnu sylw at lawer o’r rhwystrau i bobl hŷn a allai ddymuno cymryd rhan mewn dysgu gydol oes. Er ein bod yn cydnabod nad ydym mewn sefyllfa i newid lefelau budd-daliadau, gallwn wneud llawer iawn i ddiogelu incwm pobl hŷn dlotach a hybu lefel eu hincwm drwy gynlluniau fel hyrwyddo derbyn budd-daliadau.
The advisory group’s report was launched on Monday 13 May and consultation will continue until August. During the debate on the NHS plan last year, the Minister for Health and Social Services promised that we would examine in Committee and Plenary the consequences of free personal care in Wales in the context of developing the strategy for older people. Therefore, the advisory group’s remit was extended to include this issue. The Health and Social Services Committee discussed some of these issues on 1 May. Today’s Plenary debate now fulfils the Minister’s commitment.
Lansiwyd adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol ddydd Llun 13 Mai a bydd yr ymgynghori’n parhau tan fis Awst. Yn ystod y ddadl ar gynllun y GIG y llynedd, addawodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y byddem yn archwilio yn y Pwyllgor ac yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ganlyniadau gofal personol am ddim yng Nghymru yng nghyd-destun datblygu’r strategaeth i bobl hŷn. Felly, ehangwyd cylch gwaith y grŵp ymgynghorol i gynnwys y mater hwn. Trafodwyd rhai o’r materion hyn gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 1 Mai. Mae’r ddadl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw’n cyflawni ymrwymiad y Gweinidog.
I will not support Jocelyn Davies’s amendments 2 and 3. Amendment 2, which invites us to condemn the UK Government, is typical of Plaid Cymru’s negative and confrontational attitude. The Welsh Assembly Government is committed to working in partnership with the UK Government to address the issues raised in the report and other priorities with regard to older people; a necessity that the steering group has recognised.
Ni chefnogaf welliannau 2 a 3 Jocelyn Davies. Mae gwelliant 2, sy’n ein gwahodd i gondemnio Llywodraeth y DU, yn nodweddiadol o agwedd negyddol a gwrthdrawiadol Plaid Cymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymrwymo i weithio mewn partneriaeth â Llywodraeth y DU i ymdrin â’r materion a godwyd yn yr adroddiad a’r blaenoriaethau eraill o ran pobl hŷn; anghenraid a gydnabuwyd gan y grŵp llywio.
Amendment 3 is concerned with the distinction between nursing and social care. The Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly envisaged that free nursing care could be both a stand-alone measure and a stepping measure towards free personal care. The relatively generous arrangements for nursing care in Wales and our standard payment approach coupled with the unified assessment process ensures that people in Wales will get the holistic package of care that they need without any undue bureaucracy or unnecessary semantic arguments about the definition of health care or social care.
Mae gwelliant 3 yn ymwneud â’r gwahaniaeth rhwng gofal nyrsio a gofal cymdeithasol. Yr oedd y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir i’r Henoed yn rhagweld y gallai gofal nyrsio am ddim fod yn gam ar wahân ac yn gam ar y ffordd at ofal personol am ddim. Mae’r trefniadau cymharol hael i ofal nyrsio yng Nghymru a’n dull taliadau safonol ynghyd â’r broses asesu unedig yn sicrhau y bydd pobl yng Nghymru’n cael y pecyn gofal cyfannol y mae arnynt ei angen heb unrhyw fiwrocratiaeth ormodol neu ddadleuon semantig diangen am y diffiniad o ofal iechyd neu ofal cymdeithasol.
The Minister has made available the two main papers that helped to inform the advisory group’s deliberations, one by the strategic policy unit and the other by Professor David Bell of the University of Stirling. It is worth highlighting a few points in the analysis. First, free personal care would need to be extended to include free domiciliary care, as free residential care on its own would create perverse incentives for people to go into residential homes, which 80 per cent of older people do not want to do. There would also be unpredictable and increasing costs for a relatively small number of self-funders. Providing extra money would do nothing to improve their quality of care or that of the overwhelming majority of people who are already entitled to free service. Our most realistic expectation is that this policy would cost £67.5 million to implement, with the cost rising to £130 million by 2021. However, there is uncertainty about the impact due to increased demand and changing patterns of care. The final figure could be as much as £181 million.
Mae’r Gweinidog wedi darparu’r ddau brif bapur a fu o gymorth i oleuo trafodaethau’r grŵp ymgynghorol, un gan yr uned bolisi strategol a’r llall gan yr Athro David Bell o Brifysgol Stirling. Mae’n werth tynnu sylw at ychydig o’r pwyntiau yn y dadansoddiad. Yn gyntaf, byddai’n rhaid ymestyn gofal personol am ddim i gynnwys gofal am ddim yn y cartref, gan y byddai gofal preswyl am ddim ar ei ben ei hun yn creu anogaethau gwrthnysig i bobl fynd i gartrefi preswyl, ac nid yw 80 y cant o bobl hŷn am wneud hynny. Byddai costau cynyddol na ellid eu rhagweld hefyd i nifer gymharol fach o’r rhai sy’n eu hariannu eu hunain. Ni fyddai darparu arian ychwanegol yn gwneud dim i wella ansawdd eu gofal hwy na gofal y mwyafrif llethol o bobl sydd eisoes â hawl i gael gwasanaeth am ddim. Ein disgwyliad mwyaf realistig yw y byddai’r polisi hwn yn costio £67.5 miliwn i’w weithredu, ac y byddai’r gost yn codi i £130 miliwn erbyn 2021. Fodd bynnag, mae ansicrwydd ynghylch yr effaith oherwydd galw cynyddol a’r newid mewn patrymau gofal. Gallai’r ffigur terfynol fod yn gymaint â £181 miliwn.
The cost of the policy would be in addition to the extra costs that will arise due to demographic changes and the above-inflation increases in the cost of care. These costs could be as much as £323 million, rising to £565 million by 2021—an increase of 72 per cent. As we know from Scotland’s experience, implementing free residential care will result in the loss of attendance allowance, which could result in £14 million being lost from the Assembly’s budget to the Treasury.
Byddai cost y polisi ar ben y costau ychwanegol a fydd yn codi oherwydd newidiadau demograffig a’r cynnydd uwchlaw chwyddiant yng nghost gofal. Gallai’r costau hyn fod yn gymaint â £323 miliwn, gan godi i £565 miliwn erbyn 2021—cynnydd o 72 y cant. Fel y gwyddom oddi wrth brofiad yr Alban, bydd gweithredu gofal preswyl am ddim yn arwain at golli’r lwfans gweini, a allai arwain at golli £14 miliwn o gyllideb y Cynulliad i’r Trysorlys.
Implementing the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly would not eliminate the needs for a means test, as anyone entering residential care would still be subject to a means test for hotel costs. Finally, and not least, implementing free personal care in Wales would require the ability to make primary legislation, which is not in our gift. However, the advisory group supported some aspects of the royal commission’s report. We were impressed by the principle of diagnostic equity, in which people with different life-limiting conditions should come under the same funding regime, irrespective of their care setting.
Ni fyddai gweithredu argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir i’r Henoed yn dileu’r angen am brawf moddion, gan y byddai unrhyw un sy’n dechrau derbyn gofal preswyl yn gorfod mynd drwy brawf moddion am gostau gwesty. Yn olaf, ac nid yn lleiaf, byddai gweithredu gofal personol am ddim yng Nghymru yn gofyn am y gallu i wneud deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, ac nid yw hynny gennym. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y grŵp ymgynghorol o blaid rhai agweddau ar adroddiad y comisiwn brenhinol. Gwnaethpwyd argraff arnom gan yr egwyddor o degwch diagnostig, sy’n golygu y dylai pobl â gwahanol gyflyrau sy’n cyfyngu ar eu bywyd ddod o dan yr un gyfundrefn ariannu, beth bynnag fo lleoliad eu gofal.
We must consider the royal commission’s recommendations. It recommended that free personal care should be funded from additional general taxation, not from current spending. It wants provision for free personal care to be made at UK level, which would feed back to the National Assembly through the Barnett formula. It did not support the notion that the Assembly should fund this from its own budget at a cost to the many other programmes that are essential to promote the health and wellbeing of older people in Wales.
Rhaid inni ystyried argymhellion y comisiwn brenhinol. Argymhellodd y dylid ariannu gofal personol am ddim o drethiant cyffredinol ychwanegol, nid o’r gwariant presennol. Mae am i’r ddarpariaeth i ofal personol am ddim gael ei gwneud ar lefel y DU, a byddai hynny’n porthi’n ôl i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol drwy fformiwla Barnett. Nid oedd o blaid y syniad y dylai’r Cynulliad ariannu hyn o’i gyllideb ei hun ar draul y nifer fawr o raglenni eraill sy’n hollbwysig i hybu iechyd a lles pobl hŷn yng Nghymru.
I commend the advisory group’s report to Members as a basis for further consultation to inform the Welsh Assembly Government’s response and the formulation of its implementation plan—a plan that will be relevant to the needs and aspirations of older people in Wales now and for the next five to 10 years.
Cymeradwyaf adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol i’r Aelodau fel sail i ymgynghori pellach i oleuo ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r fformiwleiddio ar ei chynllun gweithredu—cynllun a fydd yn berthnasol i anghenion a dyheadau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n awr ac am y pump i 10 mlynedd nesaf.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Add a new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd:
I will start with personal care, and respond to comments made during Dr Gibbons’s confusing speech. [Interruption.] I will outline why I found it confusing. I have studied personal care for many years. The proposition to accept the royal commission’s recommendations on the funding of personal care is enticing. Plaid Cymru is convinced by it and takes a direct view on this. However, like the Government, I do not think that it is the best path to take. We must be cautious. However, the Government is playing a double game in hiding behind the device that we could endorse the principle of free personal care here but negotiate with the UK Government to implement and fund it on a UK basis. If we want to fund personal care, we must be adult enough, given that we have devolution, to make that decision or to say that it is beyond our competence. Some of Brian’s distinctions are incoherent. The Royal Commission on Long Term Care report stated that personal care should also be funded, not residential care alone, and it extends to domiciliary care, as he knows.
Dechreuaf drwy sôn am ofal personol, ac ymateb i sylwadau a wnaethpwyd yn ystod araith ddryslyd Dr Gibbons. [Torri ar draws.] Amlinellaf pam y’i cefais yn ddryslyd. Yr wyf wedi astudio gofal personol ers blynyddoedd lawer. Mae’r cynnig i dderbyn argymhellion y comisiwn brenhinol ar ariannu gofal personol yn un deniadol. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi’i hargyhoeddi ganddo ac yn bendant ei barn am hyn. Fodd bynnag, fel y Llywodraeth, ni chredaf mai hwn yw’r llwybr gorau i’w ddilyn. Rhaid inni fod yn bwyllog. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Llywodraeth yn chwarae gêm ddwbl drwy guddio y tu ôl i’r ystryw y gallem gefnogi’r egwyddor o ofal personol am ddim yma ond negodi â Llywodraeth y DU i’w gweithredu a’i hariannu ar sail y DU. Os ydym am ariannu gofal personol, rhaid inni fod yn ddigon aeddfed, o dderbyn bod datganoli gennym, i wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw neu ddweud ei fod y tu hwnt i’n gallu. Mae rhai o wahaniaethiadau Brian yn anghydlynol. Dywedodd adroddiad y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir y dylid ariannu gofal personol hefyd, nid gofal preswyl yn unig, ac mae hynny’n cynnwys gofal yn y cartref, fel y mae’n gwybod.
Our increase in direct taxation is greater than the amount needed for funding personal care, which was estimated at 0.3 per cent. Even if the royal commission assessment is inaccurate—it was made several years ago—the latest figures in this strategy show that funding personal care would cost between £67 million and £125 million. Even if 0.3 per cent is a low estimate, a 1 per cent increase would be way above even the current worst-case scenario estimates. We have had an increase in direct taxation, and the First Minister, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities and the Minister for Health and Social Services have all been careful to say that the increase in health spending is for healthcare in general, not necessarily for the NHS alone: translation—it could be used in what is currently the personal care and social services sector. Confusing tactics are currently being deployed.
Mae’r cynnydd a gawsom mewn trethiant uniongyrchol yn fwy na’r swm sydd ei angen i ariannu gofal personol, yr amcangyfrifwyd ei fod yn 0.3 y cant. Hyd yn oed os yw asesiad y comisiwn brenhinol yn anghywir—fe’i gwnaethpwyd sawl blwyddyn yn ôl—mae’r ffigurau diweddaraf yn y strategaeth hon yn dangos y byddai ariannu gofal personol yn costio rhwng £67 miliwn a £125 miliwn. Hyd yn oed os yw 0.3 y cant yn amcangyfrif isel, byddai cynnydd o 1 y cant ymhell uwchlaw hyd yn oed yr amcangyfrifon presennol am y senario gwaethaf. Cawsom gynnydd mewn trethiant uniongyrchol, a bu Prif Weinidog Cymru, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau a’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i gyd yn ofalus i ddweud bod y cynnydd yn y gwariant ar iechyd ar gyfer gofal iechyd yn gyffredinol, ac nid i’r GIG yn unig o reidrwydd: o’i gyfieithu—gellid ei ddefnyddio yn y sector gofal personol a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol fel y mae ar hyn o bryd. Defnyddir tactegau dryslyd ar hyn o bryd.
On petitioning the UK Government, its position is clear: it has rejected the royal commission’s recommendation of funding free personal care. No-one is naive enough to think that were the First Minister to abandon his usual tirades against the Welsh Rugby Union, and take on the Treasury he would win. He will be given as short a shrift there as he was in Cardiff. We must accept the realities of our political situation. This motion is an empty gesture. It would be much more productive—as I thought the Minister was steering toward at a previous Health and Social Services Committee meeting—to ask the Committee to examine the question of healthcare and social care combined, to see if there is a way forward on these issues. We should hold an inquiry to examine this issue, then reach some coherent judgments and make recommendations. We should not play to the grandstand, running to the Welsh public blaming the UK Government for everything.
Ynghylch gwneud cais i Lywodraeth y DU, mae ei safbwynt yn glir: mae wedi gwrthod argymhelliad y comisiwn brenhinol i ariannu gofal personol am ddim. Nid oes neb yn ddigon gwirion i gredu y byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru’n ennill pe byddai’n rhoi’r gorau i’w bregethu arferol yn erbyn Undeb Rygbi Cymru ac yn mynd i’r afael â’r Trysorlys. Fe gaiff gymaint o drugaredd yn y fan honno ag a gafodd yng Nghaerdydd. Rhaid inni dderbyn y gwir am ein sefyllfa wleidyddol. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn ystum diystyr. Llawer mwy cynhyrchiol fyddai gofyn i’r Pwyllgor archwilio cwestiwn gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol gyda’i gilydd—a chredais fod y Gweinidog yn anelu at hynny mewn cyfarfod blaenorol o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol—i weld a oes ffordd ymlaen ar y materion hyn. Dylem gynnal ymchwiliad i archwilio’r mater hwn, ac wedyn dod i rai dyfarniadau cydlynol a gwneud argymhellion. Ni ddylem chwarae i’r galeri, gan redeg at y cyhoedd yng Nghymru gan roi’r bai ar Lywodraeth y DU am bob dim.
We must consider several options. The Assembly could fund what is currently classified as personal care. We know that the resources in health will increase substantially, coming to us as a block grant. The Government has already indicated that it will have flexibility to allocate that money. Instead of funding personal care directly, we could continue to charge, but have a national policy or a fairer, more standard policy. That could limit the charging policies that are applied to people who are deemed to have to pay for personal care.
Rhaid inni ystyried sawl dewis. Gallai’r Cynulliad ariannu’r hyn a ddynodir yn ofal personol ar hyn o bryd. Gwyddom y bydd cynnydd sylweddol yn yr adnoddau i iechyd, a fydd yn dod atom ar ffurf grant bloc. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi nodi eisoes y bydd ganddi hyblygrwydd wrth ddyrannu’r arian hwnnw. Yn lle ariannu gofal personol yn uniongyrchol, gallem barhau i godi tâl, ond cael polisi cenedlaethol neu bolisi tecach a mwy safonol. Gallai hynny gyfyngu ar y polisïau taliadau a gymhwysir at bobl y bernir bod yn rhaid iddynt dalu am ofal personol.
The best way forward is to look at piloting a united care trust, with responsibility for delivering healthcare and personal and social care. We could then see how that operates in the outside world. If that is a coherent model—purely by being functional—it will end what many people regard to be—
Y ffordd orau ymlaen yw ystyried rhagbrofi ymddiriedolaeth gofal unedig, ac iddi gyfrifoldeb dros ddarparu gofal iechyd a gofal personol a chymdeithasol. Gallem weld wedyn sut y mae hynny’n gweithio ar lawr gwlad. Os yw’n fodel cydlynol—dim ond drwy ateb ei ddiben—bydd yn rhoi terfyn ar yr hyn y mae llawer o bobl yn ei ystyried yn—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
Order. Your time is up. You may have one sentence to finish, David.
Trefn. Mae’ch amser ar ben. Cewch un frawddeg i orffen, David.
It would then end the somewhat artificial distinction that many people see in healthcare and social care. I regret—and this is not a complaint against the Deputy Presiding Officer; the Business Committee should consider this matter—that I have only spoken for five minutes in a debate lasting an hour and a half on the older persons’ strategy. It is a parody of a parliament—
Byddai’n rhoi terfyn wedyn ar y gwahaniaeth ffug braidd y mae llawer o bobl yn ei weld rhwng gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae’n ofid imi—ac nid yw hyn yn gŵyn yn erbyn y Dirprwy Lywydd; dylai’r Pwyllgor Busnes ystyried y mater hwn—nad wyf ond wedi siarad am bum munud mewn dadl sy’n parhau am awr a hanner ar y strategaeth i bobl hŷn. Mae’n barodi o senedd—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30
Order. This is not an hour and a half’s debate, although that may have been the indicative time. Many Members wish to speak—perhaps enough to make this debate last for an hour and a half, perhaps not. I will judge that when it is time to close the debate.
Trefn. Nid dadl awr a hanner yw hon, er ei bod yn bosibl mai hwnnw oedd yr amser a ddynodwyd. Mae llawer o’r Aelodau’n dymuno siarad—digon efallai i beri i’r ddadl barhau am awr a hanner, efallai ddim. Byddaf yn dyfarnu ar hynny pan ddaw’n adeg dod â’r ddadl i ben.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd:
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 2: add a new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd:
I propose amendment 3. Add a new point:
David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 30
David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 30
Datganaf fy muddiannau arferol fel meddyg teulu, cynghorydd sir, is-gadeirydd cymdeithas Crossroads—Caring for Carers, ac is-lywydd Cymdeithas Alzheimer yn Abertawe.
in Welsh I declare my usual interests as a general practitioner, county councillor, vice-chair of the Crossroads—Caring for Carers association and vice-president of the Alzheimer’s Society in Swansea.
Croesawaf y ddadl hon a’r gwaith clodwiw yn yr adroddiad ger ein bron. Mae mwy o bobl yn byw yn hirach a llawer yn fwy ffit nag erioed o’r blaen. Rhydd y strategaeth newydd gyfle inni ystyried y mater hwn o’r newydd, ac i fynnu, fel pwynt cychwynnol, mai’r ddelfryd yw cadw pobl hŷn yn eu cartrefi a’u galluogi, drwy ddarparu’r gwasanaethau angenrheidiol, i fyw bywyd mor annibynnol â phosibl.
in Welsh I welcome this debate and the commendable work contained in the report before us. More people live longer and are fitter than ever before. The new strategy affords us the opportunity to consider the issue anew, and to insist that, as a starting point, we should, ideally, try to keep elderly people in their own homes and enable them, by providing the necessary services, to live as independent a life as possible.
Such an innovative strategy to promote independent living will have considerable resource implications. However, to change a strategy from a mere wish list to a costed action plan, after consultation, will take significant resources. As regards enabling people to stay in their own homes, we are talking about providing rapid response teams, primary care staff, district nurses, home care services, elderly care assessment teams, care and repair services and an array of physiotherapists and occupational therapists, as well as voluntary sector input from organisations such as Crossroads, Age Concern and the Alzheimer’s Society. Prevention of falls, and active rehabilitation in terms of getting older people fitter and less prone to falls, must be a priority, coupled with more effective intermediate care.
yn Saesneg Daw goblygiadau sylweddol o ran adnoddau o strategaeth mor arloesol i hybu byw’n annibynnol. Fodd bynnag, bydd angen adnoddau sylweddol i newid y strategaeth o fod yn ddim ond rhestr ddymuniadau i fod yn gynllun gweithredu wedi’i brisio, ar ôl ymgynghori. Yng nghyd-destun galluogi pobl i aros yn eu cartrefi eu hunain, yr ydym yn sôn am ddarparu timau ymateb cyflym, staff gofal sylfaenol, nyrsys ardal, gwasanaethau gofal yn y cartref, timau asesu gofal yr henoed, gwasanaethau gofal a thrwsio a rhengoedd o ffisiotherapyddion a therapyddion galwedigaethol, yn ogystal â mewnbwn o’r sector gwirfoddol gan fudiadau fel Crossroads, Gofal Henoed a Chymdeithas Alzheimer. Rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i atal codymau, ac ailsefydlu gweithredol o ran peri i bobl hŷn fod yn fwy heini ac yn llai tueddol i gael codwm, ynghyd â gofal canolraddol mwy effeithiol.
There were common themes in the evidence-taking sessions for the older person’s strategy: pensions; poverty; the take-up of benefits; free personal care; the care homes crisis; and the state of the health service. In terms of free personal care, it is Plaid Cymru policy to enact in full the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly. Why have a royal commission unless you are going to listen to its recommendations? Recommendation 5.27 in the advisory group’s report states that the Welsh Assembly Government should formally accept the royal commission’s recommendations and should challenge the UK Government’s stance. That recommendation needs to be translated into reality in the action plan that will follow the consultation. How will it be brought about? Or are we only going to have the grandstand today?
yn Saesneg Yr oedd rhai themâu cyffredin yn y sesiynau cymryd tystiolaeth ar gyfer y strategaeth i bobl hŷn: pensiynau; tlodi; manteisio ar fudd-daliadau; gofal personol am ddim; argyfwng y cartrefi gofal; a chyflwr y gwasanaeth iechyd. O ran gofal personol am ddim, polisi Plaid Cymru yw rhoi ar waith holl argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir i’r Henoed. I beth y cewch gomisiwn brenhinol os nad ydych am wrando ar ei argymhellion? Mae argymhelliad 5.27 yn adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol yn datgan y dylai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru dderbyn yn ffurfiol argymhellion y comisiwn brenhinol ac y dylai herio safbwynt Llywodraeth y DU. Mae angen gwireddu’r argymhelliad hwnnw yn y cynllun gweithredu a fydd yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad. Sut y gwireddir hynny? Neu ai dim ond heddiw y gwelwn y chwarae i’r galeri?
The distinction between nursing care and personal care is artificial. Personal care is what is traditionally called ‘nursing’, as it forms part of the extra help that someone might need in terms of washing and self-care by virtue of their frailty or disability. Personal care is best carried out by nurses who can pick up the early development of physical problems, such as sores and ulcers, before they would become evident to less-qualified eyes. That is health promotion par excellence, and why personal care means nursing care. However, the personal care of someone suffering from Alzheimer’s disease in a home is charged for, while similar care for someone with advanced heart failure in hospital is free. The UK Government’s standpoint makes no clinical sense.
yn Saesneg Mae’r gwahaniaeth rhwng gofal nyrsio a gofal personol yn artiffisial. Gofal personol yw’r hyn a elwir yn draddodiadol yn ‘nyrsio’, gan ei fod yn rhan o’r cymorth ychwanegol y gallai fod ar rywun ei angen o ran ymolchi a gofalu amdano’i hun am ei fod yn fregus neu’n anabl. Cyflawnir gofal personol orau gan nyrsys sy’n gallu sylwi ar broblemau corfforol, fel briwiau a chrawniadau, pan fônt yn dechrau datblygu, cyn y byddent yn amlwg i rai llai cymwys. Dyna yw hybu iechyd ar ei orau, a dyna pam y mae gofal personol yn golygu gofal nyrsio. Fodd bynnag, fe godir tâl am ofal personol am rywun sy’n dioddef gan glefyd Alzheimer mewn cartref, tra bo gofal tebyg am rywun sydd yn ddifrifol wael â methiant y galon mewn ysbyty yn rhad ac am ddim. Nid yw safbwynt Llywodraeth y DU yn gwneud synnwyr clinigol.
I will discuss domiciliary care, or home care services, which enable people to stay at home. Attention to prioritisation, financing, improved training and pay and workforce esteem within this form of care is long overdue. This should be the very bedrock of future policy development.
yn Saesneg Trof at ofal yn y cartref, neu wasanaethau gofal yn y cartref, sy’n galluogi pobl i aros gartref. Mae’n hen bryd rhoi sylw i flaenoriaethu, cyllido, gwella hyfforddiant a thâl a pharch at y gweithlu yn y math hwn o ofal. Dylai hynny fod yn sylfaen i ddatblygu polisi yn y dyfodol.
Finally, according to the evidence taken, the national health service is important to older people. Issues mentioned were the general pressures on the NHS, orthopaedic waiting lists, and services for the elderly, in terms of visual and hearing impairments, and the need for stroke units and multidisciplinary teams, as 5 per cent of over 75-year-olds suffer strokes. Also, a quarter of all people over the age of 84 will suffer from Alzheimer’s disease. The phenomenal burden of arthritis, osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis is hardly mentioned in the advisory group’s report. We need a framework; priority must be given to addressing this significant cause of morbidity, as well as orthopaedic waiting lists.
yn Saesneg Yn olaf, yn ôl y dystiolaeth a gymerwyd, mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn bwysig i bobl hŷn. Y materion a grybwyllwyd oedd y pwysau cyffredinol ar y GIG, rhestrau aros orthopedig, a gwasanaethau i’r henoed, o ran diffygion ar y golwg a’r clyw, a’r angen am unedau strôc a thimau amlddisgyblaethol, gan fod 5 y cant o’r rhai dros 75 mlwydd oed yn dioddef gan strôc. Hefyd, bydd chwarter o’r holl bobl dros 84 oed yn dioddef clefyd Alzheimer. Prin yw’r sôn yn adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol am y baich aruthrol oherwydd grydcymalau, crydcymalau esgyrnol a chrydcymalau gwynegol. Mae arnom angen fframwaith; rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i ymdrin â’r achos amlwg hwn o afiachusrwydd, yn ogystal â’r rhestrau aros orthopedig.
The strategy for older people in Wales makes a significant contribution to raising the profile of issues that are important to older people everywhere—poor pensions, poverty, the care homes crisis, free long-term care for the elderly and the state of the health service. The challenge is to change aspiration into reality.
yn Saesneg Mae’r strategaeth i bobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n gyfraniad o bwys at amlygu materion sy’n bwysig gan bobl hŷn ym mhob man—pensiynau gwael, tlodi, argyfwng y cartrefi gofal, gofal tymor hir am ddim i’r henoed a chyflwr y gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr her yw gwireddu’r dyhead.
I congratulate and thank the members of the advisory group for their commitment and hard work in developing this comprehensive and well-rounded report. The innovative way in which the group carried out its work, in gathering views and consulting people, is welcome, and hopefully will be replicated for subsequent reports. It is inevitable that members of the Health and Social Services Committee would not be able to resist talking about free personal care. I know that that will disappoint some people, because this report is about so much more than just the health service. However, I cannot resist doing it either, and I welcome the partnership Government’s acceptance of the principles outlined by the Sutherland report, following the lead of Scotland’s partnership Government in implementing free personal care and the Westminster Liberal Democrats’ call for the full implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly. Public desire for this policy was starkly demonstrated by the recent BBC ‘Your NHS’ day poll. Of all the issues on which people could vote, this topped the poll, above increased expenditure on accident and emergency services, and recruiting more doctors and nurses. This issue exercises the minds of many people in England and Wales, and they look to us to take this policy forward. The acknowledgement by Welsh Labour that it needs to press its colleagues in Westminster to take action on this policy is a first step.
Llongyfarchaf a diolchaf i aelodau’r grŵp ymgynghorol am eu hymroddiad a’u gwaith caled wrth ddatblygu’r adroddiad cynhwysfawr a chyflawn hwn. Mae dull arloesol y grŵp o wneud ei waith, wrth gasglu barn ac ymgynghori, i’w groesawu, a gobeithiaf y caiff hynny ei ailadrodd yn achos adroddiadau yn y dyfodol. Mae’n anorfod na fyddai aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gallu ymatal rhag siarad am ofal personol am ddim. Gwn y bydd hynny’n siomi rhai, gan fod yr adroddiad yn ymwneud â llawer mwy na’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn unig. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf fi ymatal rhag hynny ychwaith, a chroesawaf y ffaith bod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn derbyn yr egwyddorion a amlinellir gan adroddiad Sutherland, gan ddilyn arweiniad Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yr Alban wrth gyflwyno gofal personol am ddim a galwad Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol San Steffan am weithredu holl argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir i’r Henoed. Dangoswyd awydd y cyhoedd am y polisi hwn yn glir gan arolwg diweddar y BBC ar ddiwrnod ‘Your NHS’. O’r holl faterion y gallai pobl bleidleisio arnynt, hwn a gafodd y bleidlais fwyaf, yn fwy na gwariant uwch ar wasanaethau damweiniau ac argyfwng, a recriwtio rhagor o feddygon a nyrsys. Mae’r mater hwn yn peri pryder i lawer o bobl yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac maent yn disgwyl i ni fwrw ymlaen â’r polisi hwn. Mae’r gydnabyddiaeth gan Lafur Cymru fod angen iddi bwyso ar ei chyd-aelodau yn San Steffan i weithredu ar y polisi hwn yn gam cyntaf.
However, it is only the first step. I welcome the policies and initiatives already announced by the Minister for Health and Social Services on how Wales can lighten the burden on older people who face the prospect of having to pay for their long-term care. For instance, we have the introduction of free home care following release from hospital, the commitment to consider the disregard of disability benefits when assessing charges for domicilary care, and the opportunity to consider capital allowances, that is, the value that people are allowed to retain in their home before they are forced to sell it to pay for their care.
Fodd bynnag, dim ond y cam cyntaf yw hwn. Croesawaf y polisïau a’r mentrau a gyhoeddwyd eisoes gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar y modd y gall Cymru ysgafnhau’r baich ar bobl hŷn sy’n wynebu’r posibiliad o orfod talu am eu gofal tymor hir. Er enghraifft, cyflwynwyd gofal am ddim yn y cartref i bobl sy’n cael eu rhyddhau o’r ysbyty, cafwyd ymrwymiad i ystyried anwybyddu budd-daliadau anabledd wrth asesu’r taliadau a godir am ofal yn y cartref, a chafwyd cyfle i ystyried lwfansau cyfalaf, sef y gwerth y caniateir i bobl ei gadw yn eu cartref cyn eu bod yn gorfod ei werthu i dalu am eu gofal.
We cannot get away from this fact—it was confirmed again this morning by Dame June Clark—that we need primary legislation to implement free personal care in Wales. I hope that you will take the opportunity today, Minister, to clear the mist for David Melding. I also hope that you will give a commitment that, if Westminster will not act and will not implement the Sutherland report, you will seek, on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government, the powers and the resources to pursue this policy in Wales. I hope that you will consider how we can best use the increased resources that the Assembly will receive following the Chancellor’s budget announcement in London to alleviate the burden that many older people in Wales face. Tony Blair said in the 1997 general election campaign that he did not want to live in a country where older people were forced to sell their homes to pay for care. I am sure that you would not want that to be the case in Wales where we have the resources, and, potentially, powers to act differently.
Ni allwn ddianc rhag y ffaith hon—fe’i cadarnhawyd eto y bore yma gan y Fonesig June Clark—bod arnom angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i roi gofal personol am ddim ar waith yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn achub ar y cyfle heddiw, Weinidog, i glirio’r niwl i David Melding. Yr wyf hefyd yn gobeithio y byddwch yn ymrwymo, os na wnaiff San Steffan weithredu a rhoi adroddiad Sutherland ar waith, y byddwch, ar ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn ceisio’r pwerau a’r adnoddau i ddilyn y polisi hwn yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ystyried sut y gallwn gwneud y defnydd gorau o’r adnoddau ychwanegol y bydd y Cynulliad yn eu derbyn ar ôl cyhoeddiad cyllideb y Canghellor yn Llundain, i liniaru’r baich y mae llawer o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n ei wynebu. Dywedodd Tony Blair yn ymgyrch etholiad cyffredinol 1997 nad oedd am fyw mewn gwlad lle’r oedd pobl hŷn yn gorfod gwerthu eu cartrefi i dalu am ofal. Yr wyf yn sicr na fyddech am iddi fod felly yng Nghymru lle y mae gennym yr adnoddau, a’r pwerau, yn ddichonol, i weithredu’n wahanol.
On other aspects of the report, a significant amount of attention will be paid to how we can strengthen the voice of older people in the Assembly and local government. The report presents several options—a minister for older people, a joint Cabinet committee and a commissioner for older people similar to the children’s commissioner that we have already achieved in Wales. I do not want to pre-empt the consultation, but I hope that we will carefully consider how we can mainstream older people’s issues into policy development in the National Assembly, as well as ways of demonstrating to older people that they are being listened to. Older people are discriminated against in Wales. We must do all that we can to challenge discrimination and the perception of discrimination. To send a clear message today to the older people of Wales that we are listening to their needs, will the Minister say that she will pursue the issue of free personal care, not only in Westminster, but here in the National Assembly for Wales?
Ynghylch agweddau eraill ar yr adroddiad, rhoddir cryn sylw i’r modd y gallwn gryfhau llais pobl hŷn yn y Cynulliad ac mewn llywodraeth leol. Mae’r adroddiad yn cyflwyno sawl dewis—gweinidog i bobl hŷn, cydbwyllgor Cabinet a chomisiynydd i bobl hŷn, a fyddai’n debyg i’r comisiynydd plant yr ydym eisoes wedi’i sicrhau yng Nghymru. Nid wyf am achub y blaen ar yr ymgynghoriad, ond gobeithiaf y byddwn yn ystyried yn ofalus sut y gallwn roi materion pobl hŷn yn y brif ffrwd wrth ddatblygu polisi yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn ogystal â dulliau o ddangos i bobl hŷn ein bod yn gwrando arnynt. Gwahaniaethir yn erbyn pobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni wneud popeth a allwn i herio gwahaniaethu a’r canfyddiad o wahaniaethu. Er mwyn anfon neges glir heddiw at bobl hŷn Cymru ein bod yn gwrando ar eu hanghenion, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud y gwnaiff ddilyn mater gofal personol am ddim, nid yn unig yn San Steffan, ond yma yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru?
Ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Dai Lloyd yn gynharach. Gobeithiaf y byddai’r Aelodau yn cytuno mai’r sefyllfa ddelfrydol fyddai sicrhau y gall pobl aros yn eu cartrefi eu hunain gyhyd ag sydd yn bosibl, a phan fo angen gofal a chynhaliaeth arnynt, y gallant dderbyn hynny yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid inni dderbyn bod angen cartrefi gofal ar rai pobl yn ein cymdeithas. Gobeithiaf fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn derbyn bod argyfwng gwirioneddol yn wynebu’r sector hwnnw ar hyn o bryd. Mae nifer o achosion yn fy etholaeth, Dwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr, lle mae pobl yn gorfod aros mewn ysbytai cymunedol oherwydd nad oes modd i’w trosglwyddo i gartefi gofal. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod modd gwneud hyn. Fel y dywedodd David Melding, dylem archwilio’r modd y defnyddir y cyllidebau iechyd a gofal. Efallai fod ffordd fwy effeithiol o ddefnyddio’r arian er mwyn darparu’r math o ofal sydd ei angen ar bobl, yn hytrach na’u gorfodi i aros mewn sefydliadau sy’n anaddas ar gyfer eu hanghenion.
I echo what Dai Lloyd said earlier. I hope that Members agree that our aim should be to enable people to remain in their own homes for as long as possible, and that when they need care and support, that it be provided in their own homes. However, we must accept some people in our society require care homes. I hope that the Assembly Government accepts that there is a real crisis facing that sector at the moment. In my constituency, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, there are several cases of people who are forced to stay in community hospitals because there is no way of transferring them to care homes. We must ensure that this situation is remedied. As David Melding said, we must scrutinise how the health and care budgets are used. That money could perhaps be used more effectively to provide the sort of care people need, rather than forcing them to stay in inappropriate institutions.
Yr ydym wedi colli 47,000 o welyau gofal ers i’r Llywodraeth Lafur gael ei hethol yn 1997. Mae hyn yn gwbl annerbyniol oherwydd bod arnom angen y gwelyau hynny. Mae 108 cartref gofal wedi cau yng Nghymru ers 1997—pedwar ohonynt yn Sir Gaerfyrddin. Ni allwn ddygymod â cholledion o’r fath; mae arnom angen y cartrefi hyn. Beth a wna’r Llywodraeth hon i sicrhau eu bodolaeth?
We have lost 47,000 care beds since the Labour Government was elected in 1997. This is totally unacceptable because we need those beds. A total of 108 care homes have closed in Wales since 1997—four of which were in Carmarthenshire. We cannot tolerate such losses; we need these homes. What will this Government do to secure their survival?
Pwy sydd â’r cyfrifoldeb dros y cartrefi hyn? Yng Nghymru, er bod y sector preifat wedi cyfrannu, yn draddodiadol, mae cartrefi gofal wedi bod yn gyfrifoldeb awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd yr angen i godi safonau yn y cartrefi hyn—ac yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno â hynny gan fod mwy o angen yng Nghymru, o bosibl, nag mewn rhannau eraill o Brydain—mae pwysau ar awdurdoadau lleol i drosglwyddo eu stoc. Pam na all awdurdodau lleol hawlio’r arian a fyddai’n eu galluogi i gadw’r cartrefi hyn yn gyfrifoldeb iddynt hwy? Mae ymgynghoriad yn parhau ar hyn o bryd yn Sir Gaerfyrddin, ac mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r bobl sy’n dod i’m cynghorfeydd am weld awdurdodau lleol yn parhau’n gyfrifol am gartrefi gofal. Teimlant yn ddiogel gyda hynny, a chredant ei bod yn gyfrifoldeb ar y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod hyn digwydd.
Where does the responsibility for these care homes lie? In Wales, although the private sector has contributed, care homes have traditionally been the responsibility of local authorities. However, because of the need to raise standards in these homes—and we all agree with that, as there is possibly greater need in Wales than other parts of Britain—there is pressure on local authorities to transfer their stock. Why can local authorities not draw down the funds that would enable them to keep these homes within their remits? Consultation is taking place at present in Carmarthenshire, and the majority of those who come to my surgeries want to see care homes remain within the local authority’s remit. They feel safe with that, and believe that it is the Government’s responsibility to ensure that it happens.
Cyflwynais gwestiwn ysgrifenedig ar y mater hwn, ac yr oedd yr ateb a gefais yn galonogol. Fodd bynnag hoffwn ymrwymiad y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn cael cyfle i hawlio arian i godi safonau, a chadw cyfrifoldeb dros y cartrefi hyn. Rhoddaf her—
I tabled a written question on this matter, and the answer I received was reassuring. However, I want a commitment that local authorities will be able to draw down funds to raise standards, and will retain responsibility for these homes. I challenge—
The Chief Inspector of Social Services says that we have a dangerous situation in Wales because councils are concentrating too much on their role as care providers and not enough on their role as care commissioners, and that they should start to move away from providing in such quantities. Your proposal goes against that, Rhodri.
Dywed Prif Arolygydd y Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol fod gennym sefyllfa beryglus yng Nghymru am fod y cynghorau’n canolbwyntio’n ormodol ar eu rôl fel darparwyr gofal a dim digon ar eu rôl fel comisiynwyr gofal, ac y dylent ddechrau symud oddi wrth ddarparu i’r fath raddau. Mae’r hyn a gynigiwch yn mynd yn groes i hynny, Rhodri.
Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau mai dymuniad defnyddwyr y cartrefi yw eu bod nhw’n aros o dan reolaeth awdurdodau lleol. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod bod y sector preifat—ac mae lle i’r sector preifat—yn cael ei yrru gan elw. A yw David Melding yn dweud wrthym ei fod am ymddiried y gofal am bobl hŷn sydd mewn angen i sector sydd yn ddibynnol ar elw, yn hytrach nag i awdurdodau lleol, sydd yn uniongyrchol atebol i’r bobl y maent yn eu gwasanaethu? Mae’n rhaid inni greu sefyllfa lle rhoddir opsiwn i gartrefi aros o dan reolaeth awdurdod lleol. Ni fydd hynny’n digwydd bob amser, ond mae’n bwysig ystyried yr opsiwn hwnnw yn llawn mewn unrhyw broses ymgynghorol.
I assure you that those who use the homes want them to remain within the local authorities’ remits. We must recognise that the private sector—and there is a place for the private sector—is driven by profit. Is David Melding claiming that he wants to entrust the care of older people in need to a sector dependent on profit, rather than to the local authorities, which are directly accountable to the people whom they serve? We must create a situation where there is an option for homes to remain within the remit of the local authority. That will not happen in every case, but it is important that the option is considered fully in any consultation process.
I declare an interest as a registered nurse and a member of Swansea City and COunty Council. I welcome this comprehensive strategy, and I am sure that the consultation process will result in many and varied comments. In a small way, I have carried out my own consultations. In the last few weeks, I have had the opportunity to talk about the strategy’s aims and recommendations with a few interested groups. Everyone whom I talked with saw the purpose and need for such a strategy, even when there was animated discussion about the recommendations. It makes sense to review services for older people and other issues related to their wellbeing in an integrated way, and also to do that before exponential growth in the number of retirement age people.
Datganaf fuddiant fel nyrs gofrestredig ac aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Croesawaf y strategaeth gynhwysfawr hon, ac yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y broses ymgynghori’n arwain at sylwadau niferus ac amrywiol. Yr wyf wedi ymgynghori â phobl fy hun, ar raddfa fach. Yn yr wythnosau diwethaf, cefais gyfle i sôn am nodau ac argymhellion y strategaeth gydag ychydig o grwpiau sydd â budd yn hyn. Yr oedd pawb y siaradais â hwy’n gweld pwrpas strategaeth o’r fath a’r angen amdani, hyd yn oed pan oedd trafodaeth frwd am yr argymhellion. Mae’n ddoeth adolygu’r gwasanaethau i bobl hŷn a materion eraill sy’n ymwneud â’u lles mewn modd integredig, gan wneud hynny hefyd cyn i nifer y bobl o oed ymddeol gynyddu’n gyflymach gyflymach.
The perception of retirement has changed radically for individuals and society. I hope that that continues, especially as I approach retirement. The era of retirement should and can be exciting. It affords opportunities to change direction and perspective. However, to enable that requires the ability to vary lifestyle, have suitable housing and transport and focused health and social care. I especially welcome the consideration of more innovative and diverse patterns of housing provision. Appropriate transport provision should be integrated with this. Practical recommendations on a range of transport options are not only essential to older people, but will benefit the whole community. Older people do not just want for things to be done for them; they want to actively participate in community life and to continue to contribute. That is in line with the strategy’s aim of bringing new opportunities to promote self-fulfilment and independence.
Bu newid sylfaenol yn y canfyddiad o ymddeol ymysg unigolion ac mewn cymdeithas. Gobeithiaf y bydd hynny’n parhau, yn enwedig wrth imi nesáu at ymddeol. Gall cyfnod ymddeol fod yn gyffrous, ac felly y dylai fod. Mae’n cynnig cyfleoedd i newid cyfeiriad a safbwynt. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn gwneud hynny, rhaid wrth y gallu i newid ffordd o fyw, a bod â thai a thrafnidiaeth addas a gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol pwrpasol. Croesawaf yn arbennig yr ystyriaeth i batrymau mwy arloesol ac amrywiol o ddarparu tai. Dylid integreiddio darpariaeth drafnidiaeth briodol â hynny. Mae argymhellion ymarferol ar amryw o ddewisiadau trafnidiaeth yn hollbwysig i bobl hŷn, ond byddant o fudd i’r gymuned gyfan hefyd. Nid yw pobl hŷn am weld pethau’n cael eu gwneud ar eu rhan yn unig; maent am gymryd rhan weithredol ym mywyd y gymuned a pharhau i gyfrannu. Mae hynny’n unol â nod y strategaeth o gyflwyno cyfleoedd newydd i hybu hunangyflawniad ac annibyniaeth.
On the recommendations relating to health and social care, much of what I wanted to say has already been said. However, I highlight the anomaly, dating from 1974, whereby local authorities are responsible for and make provision for basic nursing care, but are not allowed to provide the nurses that give such care. Another issue that concerns me is the unified assessment framework—though not as a concept, as I believe that it is an excellent recommendation. I presume that it is intended to be a single, holistic assessment tool for universal and equitable application. However, I understand that that will not be the case in practice, as there will be local arrangements for its application. That could lead to 22 different assessment tools. Some central guidance would be beneficial and I would value the Minister’s comments on these issues.
Ynghylch yr argymhellion sy’n ymwneud â gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol, mae llawer o’r hyn yr oeddwn am ei ddweud wedi’i ddweud eisoes. Fodd bynnag, tynnaf sylw at y sefyllfa anghyson, sy’n bod ers 1974, lle y mae awdurdodau lleol yn gyfrifol am ofal nyrsio sylfaenol ac yn darparu ar ei gyfer, ond heb gael darparu’r nyrsys sy’n rhoi gofal o’r fath. Mater arall sy’n peri pryder i mi yw’r fframwaith asesu unedig—ond nid fel cysyniad, gan y credaf ei fod yn argymhelliad rhagorol. Cymeraf mai’r bwriad yw iddo fod yn offeryn asesu cyfannol, sengl i’w gymhwyso’n gyffredinol ac yn deg. Fodd bynnag, deallaf na fydd hynny’n digwydd yn ymarferol, gan y bydd trefniadau lleol i’w weithredu. Gallai hynny arwain at 22 o wahanol offer asesu. Byddai rhywfaint o gyfarwyddyd canolog yn fuddiol a byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi sylwadau gan y Gweinidog ar y materion hyn.
Most of us should declare an interest in this debate, as we will all stand to benefit from the strategy at a later stage of our lives. To paraphrase Lennon and McCartney, to the question ‘Will you still love me, will you still need me, when I’m 64?’—I want society to say ‘yes’.
Dylai’r rhan fwyaf ohonom ddatgan buddiant yn y ddadl hon, gan y byddwn oll yn cael budd o’r strategaeth yn ddiweddarach yn ein hoes. Gan aralleirio Lennon a McCartney, yn ateb i’r cwestiwn ‘Will you still love me, will you still need me, when I’m 64?’—yr wyf am i gymdeithas ddweud ‘bydd’.
The document aims to ensure that older people can play a fuller role and feel valued by society. This is extremely important as people are living longer. It is equally important to my constituency, with the second largest number of pensioners in Wales, about a third of the constituents. It is also important that such a document as this does not gather dust on shelves or prop up piano legs. Older people have much to contribute to society and I support the move to replace the term ‘age of retirement’ with the term ‘age of entitlement’. Such a change would reflect the fact that, in the twenty-first century, retirement is not the end of the road, but simply a change of lifestyle. People are increasingly taking up second careers after their official retirement, partly to earn money and partly to keep busy. In the US, these are called bridge jobs; they bridge the gap between full employment and full retirement. However, it is not all work and no play. Many more retired people these days enjoy robust good health into their 60s and 70s. That includes the crown green bowlers among us.
Mae’r ddogfen yn ceisio sicrhau y bydd modd i bobl hŷn chwarae rhan lawnach a theimlo’u bod yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi gan gymdeithas. Mae hyn yn dra phwysig gan fod pobl yn byw’n hwy. Mae yr un mor bwysig i’m hetholaeth i, sydd â’r nifer ail fwyaf o bensiynwyr yng Nghymru, tua thraean o’r etholwyr. Mae hefyd yn bwysig nad yw dogfen fel hon yn hel llwch ar silffoedd neu’n dal coesau piano. Mae gan bobl hŷn lawer i’w gyfrannu i gymdeithas a chefnogaf y symudiad i ddefnyddio’r term ‘oed derbyn hawliau’ yn lle ‘oed ymddeol’. Byddai newid o’r fath yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith nad ymddeol yw diwedd y daith yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain; nid yw ond yn newid mewn ffordd o fyw. Mae’n fwyfwy cyffredin i bobl ddilyn ail yrfa ar ôl eu hymddeoliad swyddogol, yn rhannol er mwyn ennill arian ac yn rhannol er mwyn cadw’n brysur. Yn yr Unol Daleithiau, fe elwir y rhain yn swyddi pontio; maent yn pontio’r bwlch rhwng cyflogaeth lawn ac ymddeoliad llawn. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n golygu gwaith a dim gŵyl. Erbyn hyn mae llawer mwy o bobl sydd wedi ymddeol yn dal i fod mewn iechyd da yn eu chwe degau a’u saith degau. Mae hynny’n cynnwys bowlwyr y grîn gefngrom yn ein plith.
I am concerned about the issue of free personal care. For eight out of 10 people in residential care in Wales, their care is already paid for by the taxpayer. The Assembly is taking steps to ease the costs of care. We have abolished charges for nursing care, with a simpler and more generous funding system that costs £13 million. We now provide six weeks of free home care for all elderly people leaving hospital, at a cost of £3 million. We also allow three months of personal care before assessing the value of people’s houses, so that nobody has to sell their home before it is clear that they will not be able to move back home.
Yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch mater gofal personol am ddim. Yn achos wyth o bob 10 sydd mewn gofal preswyl yng Nghymru, fe delir am eu gofal eisoes gan y trethdalwr. Mae’r Cynulliad yn cymryd camau i liniaru costau gofal. Yr ydym wedi diddymu’r taliadau a godir am ofal nyrsio, gyda system ariannu symlach a haelach sy’n costio £13 miliwn. Yr ydym bellach yn darparu chwe wythnos o ofal am ddim yn y cartref i’r holl bobl oedrannus sy’n gadael yr ysbyty, ar gost o £3 miliwn. Yr ydym hefyd yn caniatáu tri mis o ofal personol cyn asesu gwerth tai pobl, fel nad oes neb yn gorfod gwerthu ei gartref cyn iddi ddod yn amlwg na fydd yn gallu mynd adref.
Free personal care would not mean a single extra person receiving care. It would benefit a small minority of elderly people who have assets of over £19,000. It would not even benefit them; the only real beneficiaries would be their heirs. The cost would be vast and I would much rather have a policy that raises thresholds, for example, by disregarding income from industrial injury pensions and other benefits, and by increasing substantially the amount of savings that can be disregarded, before we consider the payments system. That would be a better solution, by which more people in our society would be genuinely helped.
Ni fyddai gofal personol am ddim yn golygu y byddai’r un unigolyn ychwanegol yn derbyn gofal. Byddai o fudd i leiafrif bach o bobl oedrannus a chanddynt asedau o dros £19,000. Ni fyddai o fudd iddynt hwy hyd yn oed; yr unig rai a fyddai ar eu hennill mewn gwirionedd fyddai eu hetifeddion. Byddai’r gost yn aruthrol a byddai’n well o lawer gennyf gael polisi sy’n codi’r trothwyon drwy, er enghraifft, anwybyddu incwm a geir o bensiynau anaf diwydiannol a budd-daliadau eraill, a thrwy gynyddu’n sylweddol y swm o gynilion y gellir eu hanwybyddu, cyn inni ystyried y system daliadau. Byddai hynny’n ateb gwell a fyddai’n fodd i roi cymorth gwirioneddol i fwy o bobl yn ein cymdeithas.
I will comment on the Conservatives’ amendment 1, which argues that the Government should recognise the rights of older people to access public services and opportunities for employment and leisure. I fully support those sentiments because society is changing and people are living longer and healthier lives. People of retirement age and over comprise some 20 per cent of Wales’s population, which is about half a million people. By 2016, that figure is expected to rise to 23.5 per cent. The largest increase will be in the number of those who are over 80. Most of us can now expect to live into our 80s and 90s.
Gwnaf sylw ar welliant 1 y Ceidwadwyr, sy’n dadlau y dylai’r Llywodraeth gydnabod hawliau pobl hŷn i gael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a chyfleoedd i gael gwaith a hamdden. Llwyr gefnogaf y teimladau hynny gan fod cymdeithas yn newid a phobl yn byw’n hwy ac yn iachach. Pobl o oed ymddeol a throsodd yw tua 20 y cant o boblogaeth Cymru, sef oddeutu hanner miliwn o bobl. Erbyn 2016, disgwylir i’r ffigur hwnnw godi i 23.5 y cant. Bydd y cynnydd mwyaf yn y nifer sydd dros 80. Erbyn hyn gall y rhan fwyaf ohonom ddisgwyl byw hyd ein hwyth a’n naw degau.
Living longer, healthier lives sounds great but, for some, it may mean many years in poverty. You can now expect to spend perhaps a third of your life in retirement. It can prove a financially difficult time for women, especially.
Mae byw’n hwy ac yn iachach yn swnio’n ardderchog ond, i rai, fe allai olygu blynyddoedd o dlodi. Gallwch bellach ddisgwyl treulio traean o’ch bywyd o bosibl ar ôl ymddeol. Gall menywod, yn enwedig, brofi anawsterau ariannol yn y cyfnod hwnnw.
According to Age Concern, three out of five elderly people are living in poverty. Do you agree that the fact that Consignia is now putting a surcharge of £1.65 on paying electricity bills, given that old people often want to pay in small amounts, is adding to the poverty of old people?
Yn ôl Gofal Henoed, mae tri o bob pump o bobl oedrannus yn byw mewn tlodi. A ydych yn cytuno bod Consignia, drwy godi tâl ychwanegol o £1.65 am dalu biliau trydan, gan fod hen bobl yn aml yn dymuno talu symiau bach, yn ychwanegu at dlodi hen bobl?
Those small amounts make a big difference to individuals. The situation is even worse for women because they will have been poorly paid in their working lives and then have a poorly paid retirement. Rates of poverty among women pensioners are high; three-quarters of pensioners on income support are women.
Mae’r symiau bach hynny’n gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i unigolion. Mae’r sefyllfa’n waeth byth i fenywod gan eu bod wedi’u talu’n wael yn ystod eu hoes gwaith a hwythau wedyn yn cael eu talu’n wael ar ôl ymddeol. Mae’r cyfraddau tlodi ymysg menywod ar eu pensiwn yn uchel; mae tri chwarter o’r pensiynwyr sy’n derbyn cymhorthdal incwm yn fenywod.
We ought to recognise that older people are a large group but that there are smaller groups within that group who are much worse off. One way in which we can help those who are in the worst financial situations is by providing effective and easily accessible independent information and advice on the benefits available. Research shows that in 1999 over a third of pensioners who were entitled to income support and council tax discount failed to claim them and that 15 per cent of pensioners entitled to housing benefit do not claim it. When the Minister replies, will she tell me what action will be taken to ensure that people take up their entitlements?
Dylem gydnabod bod pobl hŷn yn grŵp mawr ond bod grwpiau llai o fewn y grŵp hwnnw sy’n llawer gwaeth eu byd. Un modd inni helpu’r rhai yn y sefyllfaoedd ariannol gwaethaf yw drwy ddarparu gwybodaeth a chyngor annibynnol sy’n effeithiol ac yn hawdd eu cyrraedd ar y budd-daliadau sydd ar gael. Mae ymchwil yn dangos bod dros draean o’r pensiynwyr a oedd â hawl i dderbyn cymhorthdal incwm a gostyngiad ar y dreth gyngor yn 1999 wedi methu â’u hawlio a bod 15 y cant o’r pensiynwyr sydd â hawl i dderbyn budd-dal tai yn peidio â’i hawlio. Pan fydd y Gweinidog yn ymateb, a wnaiff ddweud wrthyf pa gamau a gymerir i sicrhau bod pobl yn derbyn yr hyn y mae ganddynt hawl iddo?
Older people sometimes complain that they are discriminated against. We must press for legislation to make discrimination on the grounds of age illegal. We can do a great deal without legislation to change attitudes to older people. For example, what is the Assembly’s record on employing people who are over 55? We can lead by example. If the Minister cannot tell me today how many people over 55 have been employed by the Assembly since 1999, perhaps an answer could be provided later. Let us not say that discrimination is wrong and then ignore this group when we recruit staff.
Mae pobl hŷn yn cwyno weithiau fod gwahaniaethu yn eu herbyn. Rhaid inni bwyso am ddeddfwriaeth i’w gwneud yn anghyfreithlon gwahaniaethu ar sail oed. Gallwn wneud llawer iawn heb ddeddfwriaeth i newid yr agweddau at bobl hŷn. Er enghraifft, beth yw record y Cynulliad ar gyflogi pobl dros 55? Gallwn arwain drwy osod esiampl. Os na all y Gweinidog ddweud wrthyf heddiw pa nifer o bobl dros 55 a gyflogwyd gan y Cynulliad ers 1999, efallai y gellid darparu ateb yn ddiweddarach. Gadewch inni beidio â dweud bod gwahaniaethu’n anghywir ac yna anwybyddu’r grŵp hwn pan ydym yn recriwtio staff.
Take the example of golden handshakes for councillors; the Government proposes that 60 is a suitable retirement age for councillors. We believe that that is a little too young. Many people do not consider becoming councillors until they retire. Harry Jones is running Newport County Borough Council in his mid-70s. Who here would say that he is too old to do that? Any takers? No, I did not think that there would be.
Cymerwch y tâl ymadael i gynghorwyr yn enghraifft; mae’r Llywodraeth yn cynnig bod 60 yn oed ymddeol addas i gynghorwyr. Credwn fod hynny braidd yn rhy ifanc. Mae llawer nad ydynt yn ystyried mynd yn gynghorwyr nes eu bod yn ymddeol. Mae Harry Jones yn rhedeg Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd ac yntau yng nghanol ei saith degau. Pwy yma a ddywedai ei fod yn rhy hen i wneud hynny? Unrhyw gynnig? Nac oes, nid oeddwn yn credu y byddai.
We can also influence the voluntary sector. Many older people gain huge satisfaction in volunteering and their contribution to that sector is vital. I was disappointed to hear on the radio yesterday that the Stroke Association has now imposed an upper age limit of 80 on all its volunteers. Will the Minister consider whether we could encourage voluntary bodies not to have upper age limits for their volunteers?
Gallwn hefyd ddylanwadu ar y sector gwirfoddol. Mae llawer o bobl hŷn yn cael llawer o foddhad drwy wirfoddoli ac mae eu cyfraniad i’r sector hwnnw’n hollbwysig. Yr oedd yn siom imi glywed ar y radio ddoe fod y Gymdeithas Strôc bellach wedi gosod terfyn oedran uchaf o 80 ar ei holl wirfoddolwyr. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried a allem annog cyrff gwirfoddol i beidio â chael terfynau oedran uchaf i’w gwirfoddolwyr?
The report is thoughtful. Brian told us how it came to be drawn up, and therefore I am not surprised that it is so comprehensive. However, there are one or two omissions to which I am sure that Brian would admit. For example, why has the issue of sexuality been omitted? After all, older gay people find themselves even more isolated than their heterosexual counterparts. They are least likely to have children and families and they may miss out on normal support networks that other people enjoy and rely on. Legally, they are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to inheritance laws and accessing their partner’s pension entitlement.
Mae’r adroddiad yn un ystyriol. Dywedodd Brian wrthym sut y daethpwyd i’w lunio, ac felly nid wyf yn synnu ei fod mor gynhwysfawr. Er hynny, mae un neu ddau o bethau wedi’u gadael allan yr wyf yn sicr y byddai Brian yn eu cydnabod. Er enghraifft, pam y gadawyd allan mater rhywioldeb? Wedi’r cyfan, mae pobl hoyw hŷn yn eu cael eu hunain yn fwy unig na’u cymheiriaid gwahanrywiol. Hwy yw’r lleiaf tebygol o fod â phlant a theuluoedd a gallant fod heb y rhwydweithiau cynnal arferol y mae eraill yn eu mwynhau ac yn dibynnu arnynt. Yn gyfreithiol, maent o dan anfantais aruthrol o ran y deddfau etifeddiant a chael derbyn hawliadau pensiwn eu cymar.
These are not devolved matters, but we could look at the tenancy rules of local authorities and housing associations. We must acknowledge that older gay couples may not have conventional families, therefore the rules on assignment of tenancy on the death of a tenant should acknowledge that. We should also consider the fact that care services for older people are delivered on the assumption of their being single persons or different sex couples. Getting a hospital to accept that a same sex partner is the next of kin is almost impossible. It is difficult for people who are not married to get the hospital to accept that the next of kin is your partner; for gay people that is even more difficult.
Nid yw’r materion hyn wedi’u datganoli, ond fe allem edrych ar reolau tenantiaeth yr awdurdodau lleol a’r cymdeithasau tai. Rhaid inni gydnabod ei bod yn bosibl na fydd gan barau hoyw hŷn deuluoedd confensiynol, felly dylid cydnabod hynny yn y rheolau ar aseinio tenantiaeth ar farwolaeth tenant. Dylem hefyd ystyried y ffaith bod gwasanaethau gofal i bobl hŷn yn cael eu darparu ar sail y rhagdybiaeth mai dim ond rhai sengl neu gyplau gwahanrywiol a geir. Mae cael ysbyty i dderbyn bod cymar o’r un rhyw yn berthynas agosaf bron yn amhosibl. Mae’n anodd i rai di-briod gael yr ysbyty i dderbyn mai’r perthynas agosaf yw’ch cymar; mae hynny’n anos byth i bobl hoyw.
Most of us take these matters for granted. They are in our gift, are simple and we could put them right. As for all strategies, we need to know the principles on which policies and services for older people will be based and against which principle they will be measured. The key principle should be respect for the individual and their choices. Older people should be seen as partners in all the work affecting them and society should stop patronising them. This is a cross-cutting strategy—
Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn cymryd y materion hyn yn ganiataol. Maent yn ein dwylo ni, maent yn syml a gallem eu cywiro. Yn yr un modd â phob strategaeth, rhaid inni wybod ar ba egwyddorion y bydd y polisïau a’r gwasanaethau i bobl hŷn yn cael eu seilio ac yn erbyn pa egwyddorion y’u mesurir. Y brif egwyddor y dylid ei chael yw parch at yr unigolyn a’i ddewisiadau. Dylid ystyried pobl hŷn yn bartneriaid yn yr holl waith sy’n effeithio arnynt a dylai cymdeithas roi’r gorau i’w trin yn nawddoglyd. Strategaeth drawsbynciol yw hon—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
Order. Jocelyn, you need to wind up.
Trefn. Jocelyn, rhaid ichi gloi.
In that case, I have finished.
Os felly, yr wyf wedi gorffen.
I declare an interest as a member of the City and County of Swansea council.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe.
The burning political issue in this strategy is to persuade the UK Government to adopt the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly to abolish charging for nursing and personal care. Although health must feature strongly in any strategy on older people, the strength of this report is its cross-cutting approach to this issue. It recognises that health and wellbeing depends as much on good housing and an active life and healthy environment as it does on good primary care and the availability of appropriate care to maintain independence as long as possible.
Y pwnc gwleidyddol llosg yn y strategaeth hon yw darbwyllo Llywodraeth y DU i fabwysiadu argymhelliad y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Ofal Tymor Hir i’r Henoed i ddiddymu codi taliadau am ofal nyrsio a phersonol. Er bod rhaid i iechyd gael lle amlwg mewn unrhyw strategaeth ar bobl hŷn, cryfder yr adroddiad hwn yw ei ymagwedd drawsbynciol at y mater hwn. Mae’n cydnabod bod iechyd a lles yn dibynnu’n ogymaint ar dai da a bywyd gweithredol ac amgylchedd iach ag y mae ar ofal sylfaenol da ac argaeledd gofal priodol i gynnal annibyniaeth cyn hwyed ag y bo modd.
In that context, I will concentrate on the housing agenda. It is a matter of concern that there is a projected backlog of £1 billion in repairs and improvements in the owner-occupied sector in Wales. In addition, one in five privately rented homes are classed as unfit. Many of the homes in need of repair and improvement will be occupied by older people, who are often on a low income and unable to afford the necessary works.
Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, canolbwyntiaf ar yr agenda tai. Testun pryder yw bod ôl-groniad rhagamcanedig o £1 biliwn mewn atgyweiriadau a gwelliannau yn y sector perchnogaeth breswyl yng Nghymru. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae un ym mhob pump o’r tai preifat sydd ar osod wedi’i ddynodi’n anaddas. Pobl hŷn fydd yn preswylio mewn llawer o’r cartrefi y mae angen eu hatgyweirio a’u gwella, ac yn aml byddant ar incwm isel ac yn methu â fforddio’r gwaith angenrheidiol.
Up until the last few years, resources for grants have been cut year-on-year since 1992. The partnership Government has now reversed that trend, but there is still not enough money in the system and, realistically, there will not be any in the near future. It is important that this problem is dealt with imaginatively. I applaud the extra funding that has been found for Care and Repair Cymru and the increasingly important role of that organisation in assisting older people to remain in their own homes and to live in warmth and comfort. It is no coincidence that the amount of money spent on disabled facility grants and adaptations has been rising. The money for these grants has reduced the resources available for more general improvement grants. The investment in the home energy efficiency scheme is also welcome, as is how that has been linked to crime prevention measures in some areas. However, more needs to be done to improve this scheme’s integration with other grant measures to ensure a more holistic approach to the homes of those most in need. However, it is an important step forward.
Hyd at y blynyddoedd diwethaf hyn, mae’r adnoddau ar gyfer grantiau wedi’u torri flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn ers 1992. Mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth wedi gwrthdroi’r duedd honno bellach, ond nid oes digon o arian yn y system byth ac, mewn gwirionedd, ni fydd digon yn y dyfodol agos. Mae’n bwysig trin y broblem hon yn greadigol. Canmolaf yr arian ychwanegol a ganfuwyd ar gyfer Gofal a Thrwsio Cymru a rôl gynyddol bwysig y corff hwnnw wrth helpu pobl hŷn i aros yn eu cartrefi eu hunain a byw mewn cynhesrwydd a chysur. Nid yw’n gyd-ddigwyddiad bod cynnydd wedi bod yn y swm a gaiff ei wario ar grantiau cyfleusterau i’r anabl ac addasiadau. Mae’r arian i’r grantiau hyn wedi lleihau’r adnoddau sydd ar gael ar gyfer grantiau gwella mwy cyffredinol. Mae’r buddsoddiad yn y cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref i’w groesawu hefyd, fel y mae’r modd y cysylltwyd hynny â’r mesurau atal troseddu mewn rhai ardaloedd. Fodd bynnag, mae angen gwneud rhagor i integreiddio’r cynllun hwn yn well gyda mesurau grant eraill i sicrhau agwedd fwy cyfannol at gartrefi’r rhai mwyaf anghenus. Er hynny, mae’n gam pwysig ymlaen.
I am pleased that this report has identified the one measure that can best help those living in their own homes to deal with repairs and improvement, namely the use of equity release schemes. Those schemes enable owner-occupiers to borrow against the equity in their homes to finance improvement, but defer payments on the capital and the interest until the property is sold. The Council of Mortgage Lenders is interested in these schemes and I hope that we can move forward the further research and development recommended by this report as soon as possible in order to progress this matter and to make this the rule, not the exception, in Wales. The swift implementation of adaptation works in the homes of older people is also important. Too often, there are unacceptable backlogs in local councils, and in some cases, this can leave someone housebound for a year or more. The fund that was set up this year to fast track some of these adaptations is welcome and should be expanded in future years. However, the key issue is to secure independence for older people through housing improvements. Although we have made a start, we still have a long way to go to achieve that. I hope that the report’s recommendations are another step towards achieving that goal.
Yr wyf yn falch bod yr adroddiad hwn wedi nodi’r mesur hwnnw a all fod o’r cymorth mwyaf i’r rhai sy’n byw yn eu cartrefi eu hunain ddelio ag atgyweiriadau a gwelliannau, sef defnyddio cynlluniau rhyddhau ecwiti. Mae’r cynlluniau hynny’n galluogi perchnogion preswyl i fenthyca yn erbyn ecwiti eu cartrefi i dalu am welliannau, ac i ohirio’r taliadau ar y cyfalaf a’r llog nes y caiff yr eiddo ei werthu. Mae Cyngor y Benthycwyr Morgeisi’n ymddiddori yn y cynlluniau hyn a gobeithiaf y gallwn hyrwyddo’r ymchwil a’r datblygu pellach y mae’r adroddiad hwn yn eu hargymell cyn gynted ag y bo modd er mwyn symud ymlaen ar y mater hwn a’i wneud yn arfer, ac nid yn eithriad, yng Nghymru. Mae hefyd yn bwysig cwblhau gwaith addasu yng nghartrefi pobl hŷn yn gyflym. Yn rhy aml, ceir ôl-groniadau annerbyniol yn y cynghorau lleol, ac mewn rhai achosion, gall hynny adael rhywun yn gaeth i’w dŷ am flwyddyn neu fwy. Mae’r gronfa a sefydlwyd eleni i drafod rhai o’r addasiadau hyn drwy ddull carlam i’w chroesawu a dylid ei hehangu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Fodd bynnag, y mater allweddol yw sicrhau annibyniaeth i bobl hŷn drwy welliannau i’w tai. Er ein bod wedi dechrau ar y gwaith, mae gennym ffordd bell o’n blaen at gyflawni hynny. Gobeithiaf fod argymhellion yr adroddiad yn gam arall tuag at y nod honno.
The older persons’ strategy is a beacon of good practice and is long overdue. We are not discussing one or two issues with regard to our senior citizens or something that might be useful for a Liberal Democrat election platform. We are discussing recognising the needs of senior citizens throughout Wales. That has many facets and the advisory group is working on them. I compliment it on its good work. This will go out to consultation, and we all look forward to that. We do not have a monopoly on wisdom, and it will be pleasing to hear what the people on the ground have to say. We want to hear from senior citizens and their representative organisations. I was delighted that Age Concern Cymru, Age Alliance Cymru, the National Old Age Pensioners Association of Wales and many other organisations played a part in this advisory group. That reflects on the network of organisations that exist throughout Wales. We owe them a great debt. Wales is a better nation today because of the contribution of the senior citizens of this country. We must thank them and recognise their contribution. We must remember that many of us will become senior citizens over the coming years. We take matters for granted far too often. It is nice to be able to reflect upon all those senior citizen and pensioner organisations throughout Wales, which meet every week and provide a great deal of support, enriching the lives of our pensioners. We all know of them—there are thousands in our constituencies. Those organisations are doing an excellent job and it is nice to be able to thank them.
Mae’r strategaeth i bobl hŷn yn esiampl o arfer da ac mae’n hir-ddisgwyliedig. Nid ydym yn trafod un neu ddau o faterion sy’n ymwneud â’n hen bobl neu rywbeth a allai fod yn ddefnyddiol i lwyfan etholiadol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr ydym yn trafod cydnabod anghenion hen bobl ledled Cymru. Mae sawl agwedd ar hynny ac mae’r grŵp ymgynghorol yn gweithio arnynt. Fe’i canmolaf ar ei waith da. Bydd hyn yn mynd allan ar gyfer ymgynghori, ac yr ydym oll yn edrych ymlaen at hynny. Nid yw’r holl ddoethineb yn eiddo i ni, a bydd yn dda clywed beth sydd gan bobl i’w ddweud ar lawr gwlad. Yr ydym am glywed gan hen bobl a’u cyrff cynrychioladol. Yr oeddwn wrth fy modd bod Gofal Henoed Cymru, Cynghrair Henoed Cymru, Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Pensiynwyr Cymru a nifer o fudiadau eraill wedi chwarae rhan yn y grŵp ymgynghorol hwn. Mae hynny’n dangos y rhwydwaith o fudiadau sy’n bod ledled Cymru. Mae arnom ddyled fawr iddynt. Mae Cymru’n well cenedl heddiw oherwydd cyfraniad hen bobl y wlad. Rhaid inni ddiolch iddynt a chydnabod eu cyfraniad. Rhaid inni gofio hefyd y bydd llawer ohonom ni’n dod yn bobl mewn oed dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Yr ydym yn cymryd pethau’n ganiataol yn rhy aml o lawer. Mae’n braf gallu meddwl am yr holl fudiadau hen bobl a phensiynwyr hynny ledled Cymru, sy’n cwrdd bob wythnos ac yn darparu llawer iawn o gymorth, gan gyfoethogi bywydau ein pensiynwyr. Yr ydym oll yn gwybod amdanynt—mae miloedd yn ein hetholaethau. Mae’r mudiadau hynny’n gwneud gwaith rhagorol ac mae’n braf gallu diolch iddynt.
Blaenau Gwent benefits from Age Concern local constituency workers. They do a wonderful job. There are many similar organisations to which I am sure all of you can refer. This is an opportunity to celebrate their work and ensure that we get it right this time and do even more for our pensioners in future. I received the Pensioners Forum for Wales manifesto document this week, which was interesting. Good luck to it: I admire the support it has from so many high powered organisations, from the trade union movement to the Federation of Sub Post Officers. There is support for the forum across Wales. It lays out 12 items in its manifesto for Wales. I cannot discuss all of them now, but the manifesto states that the strategy is welcome and it refers to several issues. Its first manifesto point is to create a mechanism to enable pensioners to contribute fully and effectively to the development of policies and legislation that affects them. I hope that will be the case. We need a standing forum for our senior citizens to make that link with the National Assembly, within our limited powers. We must remember that those powers are limited. There is no point in our tilting at windmills, but we must do as much as we can.
Mae Blaenau Gwent ar ei ennill oherwydd gweithwyr etholaeth leol Gofal Henoed. Maent yn gwneud gwaith rhyfeddol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gallai pob un ohonoch gyfeirio at lawer o fudiadau tebyg. Mae hwn yn gyfle i ddathlu eu gwaith a sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y peth iawn y tro hwn ac yn gwneud mwy byth dros ein pensiynwyr yn y dyfodol. Daeth dogfen maniffesto Fforwm Pensiynwyr Cymru i’m llaw yr wythnos hon, ac yr oedd yn ddiddorol. Pob lwc iddo: edmygaf y gefnogaeth a gafodd gan gynifer o fudiadau grymus, yn amrywio o fudiad yr undebau llafur i Ffederasiwn yr Is-bostfeistri. Mae cefnogaeth i’r fforwm ledled Cymru. Mae’n nodi 12 eitem yn ei faniffesto i Gymru. Ni allaf drafod pob un ohonynt yn awr, ond mae’r maniffesto’n datgan bod y strategaeth i’w chroesawu ac mae’n cyfeirio at sawl pwnc. Y pwynt cyntaf yn ei faniffesto yw y dylid creu mecanwaith i alluogi pensiynwyr i gyfrannu’n llawn ac yn effeithiol i ddatblygiad polisïau a deddfwriaeth sy’n effeithio arnynt. Gobeithiaf y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Mae arnom angen fforwm sefydlog i’n hen bobl i greu’r ddolen honno â’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o fewn ein pwerau cyfyngedig. Rhaid inni gofio bod y pwerau hynny’n gyfyngedig. Nid oes diben inni ymladd â melinau gwynt, ond rhaid inni wneud cymaint ag y gallwn.
The manifesto also refers to the need to work towards an integrated public transport system—which my colleague, Sue Essex is doing—that enables pensioners to travel free by road and rail. We have already achieved free bus transport for pensioners, and I am pleased that that was a flagship Labour policy in 1999. That has been delivered, but we must consider rail. Let us say that we are going over the boundary and let us consider what we can do for pensioners in terms of rail transport. That is a reasonable point to make.
Mae’r maniffesto’n cyfeirio hefyd at yr angen i weithio tuag at system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus integredig—ac mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Sue Essex yn gwneud hynny—sy’n galluogi pensiynwyr i deithio am ddim ar y ffyrdd a’r rheilffyrdd. Yr ydym eisoes wedi sicrhau trafnidiaeth am ddim ar fysiau i bensiynwyr, ac yr wyf yn falch mai un o brif bolisïau Llafur yn 1999 oedd hynny. Cyflawnwyd hynny, ond rhaid inni ystyried y rheilffyrdd. Gadewch inni ddweud ein bod am arloesi a gadewch inni ystyried beth y gallwn ei wneud dros y pensiynwyr o ran trafnidiaeth rheilffyrdd. Mae hynny’n pwynt rhesymol.
The manifesto also suggests positive action to improve crime prevention and detection and to alleviate pensioners’ fear of crime. I note that the working group considered that issue thoroughly. It is important; it is about making the streets safer for our pensioners and combating the confidence tricksters, the rogue tradespeople and others who prey on or abuse older people in our communities. We need to control those people. That would probably involve passing new UK Government legislation. However, the Assembly should be behind the call to tackle the problem, because pensioners in Wales deserve to be treated with respect, not taken advantage of.
Mae’r maniffesto hefyd yn awgrymu camau cadarnhaol i wella atal a darganfod troseddu ac i liniaru ofn troseddu ymysg pensiynwyr. Sylwaf fod y gweithgor wedi ystyried y pwnc hwnnw’n drwyadl. Mae’n bwysig; mae’n golygu gwneud y strydoedd yn fwy diogel i’n pensiynwyr ac ymladd y twyllwyr, y masnachwyr drygionus ac eraill sy’n manteisio ar y bobl hŷn yn ein cymunedau neu’n eu cam-drin. Rhaid inni reoli’r bobl hynny. Byddai hynny’n golygu pasio deddfwriaeth newydd gan Lywodraeth y DU, yn ôl pob tebyg. Er hynny, dylai’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r alwad i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem, gan fod pensiynwyr yng Nghymru’n haeddu cael eu trin â pharch, ac nid eu dal ar eu hanfantais.
I also support legislation to make discrimination on the grounds of age illegal. Kirsty Williams’s earlier comments on this issue were correct. Many Members have said in the past that a commissioner for older people should be appointed. If we can have a commissioner for children, we should also have a commissioner for older people. I hope that that issue will be pursued. There are many ways in which we can help to enrich older people’s lives. The document is commendable and I am pleased to support it.
Yr wyf hefyd o blaid deddfwriaeth i anghyfreithloni gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran. Yr oedd y sylwadau cynharach gan Kirsty Williams ar y mater hwn yn gywir. Mae llawer o’r Aelodau wedi dweud yn y gorffennol y dylid penodi comisiynydd i bobl hŷn. Os gallwn gael comisiynydd i blant, dylem gael comisiynydd i bobl hŷn hefyd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y mater hwnnw’n cael ei ddilyn. Gallwn helpu i gyfoethogi bywydau pobl hŷn drwy lawer dull a modd. Mae’r ddogfen i’w chanmol ac yr wyf yn falch o’i chefnogi.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
No more opposition speakers wish to speak. In the interests of a balanced debate, I would normally curtail the debate when this occurs. However, five or six Government Members wish to speak. I intend to call the Minister to respond before 11 a.m., therefore, I appeal for short speeches from the remaining Government Members who wish to speak.
Nid oes neb o blith siaradwyr eraill yr wrthblaid yn dymuno siarad. Er mwyn sicrhau dadl gytbwys, byddwn yn talfyrru’r ddadl fel arfer pan yw hynny’n digwydd. Fodd bynnag, mae pump neu chwech o Aelodau’r Llywodraeth yn dymuno siarad. Bwriadaf alw’r Gweinidog i ymateb cyn 11 a.m., felly, apeliaf am areithiau byr gan y gweddill o Aelodau’r Llywodraeth sy’n dymuno siarad.
I also welcome the strategy as the Assembly’s stamp on developing a more caring Wales. I declare an interest as a former domiciliary care manager who worked with older people. I have an elderly mother living alone and I am aware of the challenges of old age. I had the privilege of attending the launch of the Care and Repair scheme in Wrexham last week. The ability of older people to call on help in their own home is essential. That is done in partnership with the police and local authorities. My mother, at the age of 84, is still motivated and, like many other older people, has much to offer her local community of Llandrillo, Denbighshire. For example, she still chairs the local friends of Gobowen Orthopaedic Hospital committee after 25 years and is a chapel deacon. She makes a real effort to take an active part in her local community, including attending the excellent luncheon club, which is supported by many wonderful local volunteers.
Yr wyf finnau’n croesawu’r strategaeth fel stamp y Cynulliad ar ddatblygu Cymru fwy gofalgar. Datganaf fuddiant fel cyn reolwr gofal yn y cartref a weithiai â phobl hŷn. Mae gennyf fam oedrannus sy’n byw ar ei phen ei hun ac yr wyf yn ymwybodol o heriau henaint. Cefais y fraint o fod yn bresennol yng nghyfarfod lansio’r cynllun Gofal a Thrwsio yn Wrecsam yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae’n hollbwysig bod pobl hŷn yn gallu galw am gymorth yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Gwneir hynny mewn partneriaeth â’r heddlu a’r awdurdodau lleol. Mae fy mam, a hithau’n 84 oed, yn dal i fod yn frwdfrydig ac, fel llawer o bobl hŷn eraill, mae ganddi lawer i’w gynnig i’w chymuned leol yn Llandrillo yn sir Ddinbych. Er enghraifft, mae’n dal i fod yn gadeirydd y pwyllgor lleol o gyfeillion Ysbyty Orthopaedig Gobowen ar ôl 25 mlynedd ac mae’n flaenor mewn capel. Mae’n gwneud ymdrech gwirioneddol i gymryd rhan weithredol yn ei chymuned leol, gan gynnwys mynychu’r clwb cinio rhagorol, a gefnogir gan lawer o wirfoddolwyr lleol gwych.
The report’s emphasis on challenging and addressing ageism and discrimination is most welcome. Older people have much to offer their communities and society at large; they have invaluable experience, insight and skills. They are often overlooked and disregarded by employers and others who do not recognise the valuable contribution that they can make. Given the increasing number of older people in the population, we need a change of attitude in society. We need to wake up and realise that older people can be an asset, given some community support, such as that my mother received from dedicated local carers and Crossroads. With that support, she was able to care for my father at home until his death earlier this year. We do not have to consider older people as a burden. In today’s more tolerant society, we need to consider how we can continue to improve the lot of older people.
Mae pwyslais yr adroddiad ar herio a mynd i’r afael ag oedraniaeth a gwahaniaethu i’w groesawu’n fawr. Mae gan bobl hŷn lawer i’w gynnig i’w cymuned leol ac i gymdeithas yn gyffredinol; mae ganddynt brofiad, mewnwelediad a sgiliau amhrisiadwy. Cânt eu hesgeuluso a’u hanwybyddu’n aml gan gyflogwyr ac eraill nad ydynt yn cydnabod y cyfraniad gwerthfawr y gallant ei roi. O ystyried y nifer gynyddol o bobl hŷn yn y boblogaeth, mae arnom angen newid agwedd mewn cymdeithas. Rhaid inni ddeffro a sylweddoli y gall pobl hŷn fod yn ased, o dderbyn rhywfaint o gymorth cymunedol, fel yr hyn a gafodd fy mam gan ofalwyr lleol ymroddedig a chan Crossroads. Gyda’r cymorth hwnnw, yr oedd modd iddi ofalu am fy nhad gartref tan ei farwolaeth yn gynharach eleni. Nid oes rhaid inni ystyried pobl hŷn yn faich. Yn y gymdeithas fwy goddefgar sydd ohoni heddiw, rhaid inni ystyried sut y gallwn ddal i wella byd pobl hŷn.
I support the appointment of an older people’s commissioner for Wales and the establishment of a designated minister and older people’s committee to oversee the work. You may recall that I also called for these measures for children and young people in Wales.
Yr wyf o blaid penodi comisiynydd pobl hŷn i Gymru a sefydlu gweinidog dynodedig a phwyllgor pobl hŷn i oruchwylio’r gwaith. Efallai y cofiwch imi hefyd alw am y mesurau hynny i blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru.
On employment, Benefit Agency rules already allow people to work beyond retirement age while still receiving their retirement pension. The earnings rule has long been abolished and national insurance contributions cease at retirement age. The potential of older people as reliable employees needs to be recognised.
Ynghylch cyflogaeth, mae rheolau’r Asiantaeth Budd-daliadau eisoes yn caniatáu i bobl weithio ar ôl oed ymddeol gan barhau i dderbyn eu pensiwn ymddeol. Mae’r rheol enillion wedi’i hen ddiddymu ac mae cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol yn dod i ben ar oed ymddeol. Rhaid cydnabod posibiliadau pobl hŷn fel gweithwyr dibynadwy.
Free personal care must be the aim, but intensive social care could be avoided for longer if the traditional home help was reintroduced to provide help with housework and shopping, for example. Garden clearance schemes could also be extended. Sheltered housing schemes, which allow independent living linked to 24-hour care, should also be promoted.
Rhaid anelu at ofal personol am ddim, ond gellid gohirio’r angen am ofal cymdeithasol dwys os câi’r cynorthwy-ydd cartref traddodiadol ei ailgyflwyno i roi cymorth gyda gwaith tŷ a siopa, er enghraifft. Gellid ymestyn y cynlluniau clirio gerddi hefyd. Dylid hefyd hybu cynlluniau tai â chymorth, sy’n caniatáu i bobl hŷn fyw’n annibynnol a bod mewn cysylltiad â gofal ddydd a nos.
I strongly support the proposal that local authorities should develop their own strategies, which should contribute to partnership working, with budgets planned and shared jointly with other statutory bodies and the voluntary sector. The meaningful monitoring and evaluation of these partnerships must be developed. Joint care plans must not be merely documents on a shelf. Social workers must consult with the local police, district nurses with home carers, and so on. The fire service’s community safety policies should also be a part of the care planning strategy.
Yr wyf yn gadarn o blaid y cynnig y dylai’r awdurdodau lleol ddatblygu eu strategaethau eu hunain, drwy gyfrannu at weithio mewn partneriaeth, gan gynllunio a rhannu cyllidebau ar y cyd â chyrff statudol eraill ynghyd â’r sector gwirfoddol. Rhaid datblygu monitro a gwerthuso ystyrlon ar y partneriaethau hyn. Rhaid i gynlluniau gofal ar y cyd fod yn fwy na dim ond dogfennau ar silff. Rhaid i weithwyr cymdeithasol ymgynghori â’r heddlu lleol, a nyrsys ardal â’r cynorthwywyr cartref, ac yn y blaen. Dylai polisïau diogelwch cymunedol y gwasanaeth tân hefyd fod yn rhan o’r strategaeth cynllunio gofal.
Local authorities, as lead agencies, must encourage older people to participate in the Communities First initiative, and groups such as the University of the Third Age must be consulted on lifelong learning opportunities. The work already being carried out by welfare rights teams, Citizens Advice Bureaux, and others, in maximising benefit entitlement among older people, should be recognised. There has been significant success.
Gan mai hwy yw’r asiantaethau arweiniol, rhaid i’r awdurdodau lleol annog pobl hŷn i gymryd rhan yn y fenter Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, a rhaid ymgynghori â grwpiau fel Prifysgol y Drydedd Oes ar gyfleoedd dysgu gydol oes. Dylid cydnabod y gwaith a wneir eisoes gan y timau hawliau lles, y Canolfannau Cynghori, ac eraill, o ran amlhau hawliadau budd-dal ymysg pobl hŷn. Cafwyd cryn lwyddiant.
I strongly support the recommendation that the cost of using available vehicles out of hours be investigated. That should include social services buses, as they are already adapted for disabled people. Day centres could be used during weekends and evenings to minimise isolation and encourage community participation among older people. I also support the recommendation that a monitoring process be developed to prevent abuse of the elderly. A register of elderly people at risk could form part of preventative measures.
Yr wyf yn gadarn o blaid yr argymhelliad y dylid ymchwilio i’r gost o ddefnyddio cerbydau sydd ar gael y tu allan i oriau. Dylai hynny gynnwys bysiau’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, gan eu bod eisoes wedi’u haddasu ar gyfer pobl anabl. Gellid defnyddio canolfannau dydd yn ystod y penwythnosau a chyda’r nos i leihau unigedd a hyrwyddo cyfranogiad yn y gymuned ymysg pobl hŷn. Yr wyf hefyd yn cefnogi’r argymhelliad y dylid datblygu proses monitro i atal cam-drin pobl oedrannus. Gallai cofrestr o bobl oedrannus sydd mewn perygl fod yn rhan o’r mesurau ataliol.
I welcome the reference to carers’ needs and rights and a recent change to benefit regulations that, from October, will see the end to the age ceiling of 65 placed on claiming invalid care allowance. While most carers aged over 65 will not receive invalid care allowance as it overlaps the retirement pension, they may gain up to £24.80 per week through the inclusion of the carers’ premium.
Croesawaf y cyfeiriad at anghenion a hawliau gofalwyr ac at y newid diweddar i’r rheoliadau budd-dal a fydd, o fis Hydref ymlaen, yn rhoi pen ar y terfyn oed uchaf o 65 ar hawlio’r lwfans gofal analluedd. Er na fydd y rhan fwyaf o ofalwyr dros 65 oed yn derbyn y lwfans gofal analluoedd gan ei fod yn gorgyffwrdd â’r pensiwn ymddeol, gallent ennill hyd at £24.80 yr wythnos drwy gynnwys y premiwm gofalwyr.
To close, the advisory group’s report is welcome, and I acknowledge its hard work under the chairmanship of Dr Brian Gibbons. Its recommendations are wide-ranging, and successfully put into words the experiences many of us have faced in our own families.
I gloi, mae adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol i’w groesawu, a chydnabyddaf ei waith caled o dan gadeiryddiaeth Dr Brian Gibbons. Mae ei argymhellion yn eang, ac yn llwyddo i gyfleu’r profiadau y mae llawer ohonom wedi’u hwynebu yn ein teuluoedd ein hunain.
The most significant aspect of this report is the recognition that, as a society with an ageing population, we must be proactive in our approach to older people, and put a proactive framework in place, to ensure that older people’s needs are met. This is about ensuring that people have the opportunity to live their lives to the full. It is also about barriers to opportunity, which must be removed.
Yr agwedd bwysicaf ar yr adroddiad hwn yw’r gydnabyddiaeth fod rhaid i ni, fel cymdeithas y mae ei phoblogaeth yn heneiddio, fod yn rhagweithiol yn ein hagwedd at bobl hŷn, a sefydlu fframwaith rhagweithiol, i sicrhau y caiff anghenion pobl hŷn eu diwallu. Mae hynny’n golygu sicrhau y caiff pobl gyfle i fyw bywyd cyflawn. Mae’n ymwneud hefyd â’r rhwystrau i gyfleoedd, y mae’n rhaid eu dileu.
People deserve independence, dignity and security whatever their age. To pick up on Peter Law’s points, crime is one of the greatest direct threats to independence and opportunity for our older population. Older people present vulnerable targets to criminals, and shocking cases are often highlighted in the media. In my constituency, people have lost their life savings to con men, bogus callers and confidence tricksters. Crime, and the fear of it, can lead to isolation and have a hugely detrimental effect on people’s ability to participate fully in their communities. It can greatly reduce quality of life. Therefore, I welcome the report’s recommendation that the Government should review how strategies for tackling crime impact on older people, and how more can be done to focus on their needs. I hope that the Government will take note of the contribution of neighbourhood watch groups in identifying local and practical needs, such as street lighting, and in police liaison.
Mae pobl yn haeddu annibyniaeth, urddas a diogelwch beth bynnag fo’u hoed. Gan fynd ar ôl pwyntiau Peter Law, troseddu yw un o’r bygythiadau uniongyrchol mwyaf i annibyniaeth a chyfle ein poblogaeth hŷn. Mae pobl hŷn yn dargedau hawdd i droseddwyr, a thynnir sylw’n aml at achosion brawychus yn y cyfryngau. Yn fy etholaeth i, mae pobl wedi colli eu holl gynilion i hocedwyr, galwyr ffug a thwyllwyr. Mae troseddu, ac ofn troseddu, yn gallu arwain at unigrwydd ac amharu’n ddirfawr ar allu pobl i gymryd rhan yn llawn yn eu cymunedau. Gall ostwng ansawdd eu bywyd yn ddifrifol. Felly, croesawaf yr argymhelliad yn yr adroddiad y dylai’r Llywodraeth adolygu effaith y strategaethau i fynd i’r afael â throseddu ar bobl hŷn, a sut y gellir gwneud rhagor i ganolbwyntio ar eu hanghenion. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cymryd sylw o gyfraniad y grwpiau gwarchod cymdogol o ran nodi anghenion lleol ac ymarferol, fel goleuadau strydoedd, ac o ran cydgysylltu â’r heddlu.
I hope that we can be much more proactive, working with local government and the voluntary sector, in considering how we can best promote older people’s participation in their communities and how we can strengthen community groups and voluntary organisations. Such action should also address how older people can be best involved in the political process.
Gobeithiaf y gallwn fod yn llawer mwy rhagweithiol, gan weithio gyda llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol, wrth ystyried y dull gorau inni hybu cyfranogiad pobl hŷn yn eu cymunedau a sut y gallwn atgyfnerthu grwpiau cymunedol a mudiadau gwirfoddol. Wrth wneud hynny dylid hefyd ystyried y dull gorau o gynnwys pobl hŷn yn y broses wleidyddol.
I was particularly interested in the recommendation on the role that champions for older people could play in local health boards. I hope that that could be extended to encompass other public bodies. That would not only enhance the democratic process, but ensure that someone at every level is shouting for the needs of older people and for their access to the high-quality services and facilities that are essential to enable them to live their lives to the full.
Ymddiddorais yn arbennig yn yr argymhelliad ar y rôl y gallai cefnogwyr pobl hŷn ei chwarae yn y byrddau iechyd lleol. Gobeithiaf y bydd modd ymestyn hynny i gynnwys cyrff cyhoeddus eraill. Yn ogystal â hybu’r broses ddemocrataidd, byddai hynny’n sicrhau bod rhywun ar bob lefel yn codi llais dros anghenion pobl hŷn a’u gallu i gael y gwasanaethau a’r cyfleusterau o ansawdd da sy’n hollbwysig i’w galluogi i fyw eu bywyd yn llawn.
Finally, I draw attention to practical considerations. All levels of Government have launched worthy initiatives for pensioners—free bus passes, free TV licences and the minimum income guarantee, to name but a few. These are great initiatives; no-one can deny that. However, we must ensure that they are delivered in an appropriate, practical and sympathetic way, which best suits the needs of older people. Well-meaning policies are no good if they do not reach those they are intended to benefit. We must maximise their uptake and break down barriers, no matter how big or small, so that those who are most in need receive what they are entitled to.
Yn olaf, tynnaf sylw at yr ystyriaethau ymarferol. Mae pob lefel o Lywodraeth wedi lansio mentrau buddiol i bensiynwyr—tocynnau teithio ar fysiau am ddim, trwyddedau teledu am ddim a’r gwarant isafswm incwm, ag enwi dim ond rhai. Mae’r rhain yn fentrau gwych; ni all neb wadu hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau eu bod yn cael eu cyflwyno yn y modd priodol, ymarferol a chydymdeimladol sy’n fwyaf addas i anghenion pobl hŷn. Nid yw polisïau da eu bwriad o unrhyw werth os nad ydynt yn cyrraedd y rhai sydd i fod i gael budd ohonynt. Rhaid inni amlhau’r derbyniad ohonynt a dileu rhwystrau, ni waeth pa mor fawr neu fach, fel bod y rhai mwyaf anghenus yn derbyn yr hyn y mae ganddynt hawl i’w gael.
I welcome this strategy and thank the advisory group for its tremendous hard work. I declare an interest as a patron of the Alltwen Residents Association, which provides sheltered accommodation for the elderly. It is a measure of our success and desire to provide open and accountable government that we can hold this debate on older people and a debate on young people in politics—which is to take place later—in the same Plenary session.
Croesawaf y strategaeth hon a diolchaf i’r grŵp ymgynghorol am ei waith aruthrol. Datganaf fuddiant fel noddwr Cymdeithas Trigolion Alltwen, sy’n darparu llety â chymorth i’r henoed. Mesur o’n llwyddiant a’n hawydd i ddarparu llywodraeth agored ac atebol yw y gallwn gynnal y ddadl hon ar bobl hŷn a dadl ar bobl ifanc mewn gwleidyddiaeth—sydd i ddigwydd yn ddiweddarach—yn yr un Cyfarfod Llawn.
The problems facing older people are becoming increasingly prevalent. Fewer births and longer lives mean that the number of people aged 65 and over will increase at 10 times the overall population in the next 40 years. Older people’s issues also comprise a disproportionate amount of constituency casework. I am pleased that we are developing a strategy that will give older people a stronger political voice.
Mae’r problemau sy’n wynebu pobl hŷn yn dod yn fwyfwy cyffredin. Am fod llai o enedigaethau ac am fod pobl yn byw’n hwy, bydd nifer y rhai 65 oed a throsodd yn cynyddu 10 gwaith yn gyflymach na’r boblogaeth gyffredinol yn y 40 mlynedd nesaf. Mae materion sy’n ymwneud â phobl hŷn yn ffurfio fwy na’r cyfartaledd o waith achosion yr etholaethau. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn datblygu strategaeth a fydd yn rhoi llais gwleidyddol cryfach i bobl hŷn.
One of the most powerful messages in this report is that society should not write older people off. Unfortunately, older people are often stereotyped, and the media, at times, does not help matters. Assumptions are made about older people’s ability to play a full part in society. In my discussions with groups of older people in my constituency, they have been frank about the labels placed on them. Those labels can sometimes lead to poor services and exploitation by ruthless salespeople. Older people can be patronised and assumptions made about the sort of people they are, particularly if they live in sheltered accommodation. That is nothing less than ageism and discrimination. I welcome the fact that this report highlights the need to address those issues.
Un o’r negeseuon cryfaf yn yr adroddiad hwn yw na ddylai cymdeithas ddiystyru pobl hŷn. Gwaetha’r modd, mae pobl hŷn yn cael eu stereoteipio’n aml ac weithiau nid yw’r cyfryngau’n gwneud dim i helpu. Gwneir rhagdybiaethau ynghylch gallu pobl hŷn i chwarae rhan lawn mewn cymdeithas. Yn fy nhrafodaethau â grwpiau o bobl hŷn yn fy etholaeth, maent wedi siarad yn agored am y labeli a roddir arnynt. Gall y labeli hynny arwain weithiau at wasanaethau gwael ac ecsbloetio gan werthwyr didrugaredd. Gall pobl hŷn gael eu trin yn nawddoglyd a gwneir rhagdybiaethau am y math o bobl ydynt, yn enwedig os ydynt yn byw mewn tai gwarchod. Nid yw hynny’n ddim llai nag oedraniaeth a gwahaniaethu. Croesawaf y ffaith bod yr adroddiad hwn yn tynnu sylw at yr angen i ymdrin â’r materion hynny.
I turn to the fear of crime—and I declare an interest as president of Cynon Valley Victim Support. While, statistically, older people are less likely to suffer serious violent crime than younger people, the psychological, social and emotional effects of the fear of crime are more prevalent among older people and affect more than any other age group. At this point, I offer my condolences to the families of those who have been brutally murdered in Llangollen; that community is now in shock. Many older people will take drastic action. They will stay at home to avoid danger or perceived danger. They are therefore more vulnerable and more likely to be physically frail. Many of them live alone. They will try to minimise the risk of suffering from a crime. Therein lies the problem: if the Assembly is serious about tackling social exclusion among older people, it cannot afford for them to be isolated and cut off from society. I welcome the emphasis in the report on the need for active citizenship and for ownership of this strategy.
Trof at ofn troseddu—a datganaf fuddiant fel llywydd Cymorth i Ddioddefwyr Cwm Cynon. Er bod pobl hŷn yn llai tebygol, yn ôl yr ystadegau, o ddioddef troseddu treisiol difrifol na phobl ifanc, mae’r effeithiau seicolegol, cymdeithasol ac emosiynol oherwydd ofn troseddu’n fwy cyffredin ymysg pobl hŷn ac maent yn effeithio arnynt hwy’n fwy na’r un grŵp oedran arall. Ar y pwynt hwn, cydymdeimlaf â theuluoedd y rhai a lofruddiwyd yn giaidd yn Llangollen; mae’r gymuned honno wedi cael ergyd drom. Bydd llawer o bobl hŷn yn gweithredu’n eithafol. Gwnânt aros gartref i osgoi perygl neu berygl canfyddedig. Maent felly’n fwy agored i niwed ac yn fwy tebygol o fod yn gorfforol fregus. Mae llawer ohonynt yn byw ar eu pennau eu hunain. Byddant yn ceisio lleihau’r risg o ddioddef oherwydd trosedd. Yn y fan honno y mae’r broblem: os yw’r Cynulliad o ddifrif ynghylch mynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol ymysg pobl hŷn, ni all fforddio iddynt fod ar wahân ac wedi’u torri oddi wrth gymdeithas. Croesawaf y pwyslais yn yr adroddiad ar yr angen am ddinasyddiaeth weithredol ac am berchnogaeth ar y strategaeth hon.
Access to services is crucial for older people. Poor transport links, deprivation and debilitating long-term illness often conspire to limit older people’s access to essential services and amenities, and limit their independence. People often think that improving healthcare means building a new hospital or surgery. We must be more imaginative. Often, healthcare can be substantially enhanced for older people by improving their access to services at home. I am pleased that this report has drawn attention to that.
Mae’r gallu i gael gwasanaethau’n hollbwysig i bobl hŷn. Yn aml mae cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth gwael, amddifadedd a salwch tymor hir gwanhaol yn cyfuno i gyfyngu ar allu pobl hŷn i gael gwasanaethau a mwynderau hanfodol, ac yn cyfyngu ar eu hannibyniaeth. Mae pobl yn meddwl yn aml fod gwella gofal iechyd yn golygu codi ysbyty neu feddygfa newydd. Rhaid inni feddwl yn fwy creadigol. Yn aml, gellir gwella’r gofal iechyd i bobl hŷn yn sylweddol drwy hybu eu gallu i gael gwasanaethau yn eu cartrefi. Yr wyf yn falch bod yr adroddiad hwn wedi tynnu sylw at hynny.
We have begun to make a difference to the lives of older people in Wales, with free bus travel and free nursing care provided by this Welsh Assembly Government. We need to do much more, but this strategy is a positive step forward.
Yr ydym wedi dechrau gwneud gwahaniaeth ym mywydau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, gyda theithio am ddim ar fysiau a gofal nyrsio am ddim wedi’u darparu gan y Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru hon. Rhaid inni wneud llawer mwy, ond mae’r strategaeth hon yn gam cadarnhaol ymlaen.
I welcome today’s debate, and congratulate Brian and the representatives of the organisations who served on the advisory group, on their hard work, and the time and commitment involved in producing this report.
Croesawaf y ddadl hon heddiw, a llongyfarchaf Brian a chynrychiolwyr y cyrff a’r mudiadau a wasanaethodd ar y grŵp ymgynghorol, ar eu gwaith caled, a’r amser a’r ymroddiad a roddwyd i gynhyrchu’r adroddiad hwn.
The report recognises that older people now live differently than in previous generations and have different expectations. On retirement, people look forward to a new lease of life and an active old age. They have longer and fitter lives. During the recent Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference in Cardiff, a delegate from Cyprus told me that she had just bought a holiday hut on a beach in Cyprus from a Welsh couple in their mid-90s. They had decided to sell it, because they wanted to travel the world. She had kept tags on their progress and the couple had travelled about half way around and were confident of completing the world tour.
Mae’r adroddiad yn cydnabod bod pobl hŷn yn byw’n wahanol yn awr i’r cenedlaethau a fu a bod ganddynt ddisgwyliadau gwahanol. Wrth ymddeol, mae pobl yn edrych ymlaen at gael estyniad einioes a henaint bywiog. Mae eu bywydau’n hwy ac yn fwy heini. Yn ystod cynhadledd Cymdeithas Seneddol y Gymanwlad yng Nghaerdydd yn ddiweddar, dywedodd cynrychiolydd o Gyprus wrthyf ei bod newydd brynu cwt gwyliau ar draeth yng Nghyprus oddi wrth bâr o Gymru a oedd yn eu naw degau canol. Yr oeddent wedi penderfynu ei werthu, am eu bod am deithio’r byd. Mae wedi cadw llygad ar eu hynt ac yr oedd y pâr wedi teithio tua hanner y ffordd ac yn ffyddiog y byddent yn cwblhau’r daith o amgylch y byd.
I have run six London marathons and in every one I have seen people in their 80s taking part. One woman told me that she had begun to run marathons in her 80s; she had already run three or four, and intended to continue until she was 90. After that, she would look to other activities. I have run six marathons, but have stopped now. I am not sure whether I will run a marathon in my 80s, if I am lucky enough to live that long, but I know that old people today are taking advantage of the opportunity to live full and active lives and that that is positive. The University of the Third Age provides great opportunities and, through that organisation, many senior citizens take degrees and study at all levels, keeping their minds active and meeting new people.
Yr wyf wedi rhedeg mewn chwe marathon yn Llundain ac ym mhob un fe welais bobl yn eu hwyth degau’n cymryd rhan. Dywedodd un fenyw wrthyf ei bod wedi dechrau rhedeg mewn marathonau yn ei hwyth degau; yr oedd eisoes wedi rhedeg mewn tri neu bedwar, a bwriadai barhau nes ei bod yn 90. Wedi hynny, byddai’n ystyried gweithgareddau eraill. Yr wyf wedi rhedeg mewn chwe marathon, ond yr wyf wedi rhoi’r gorau iddynt bellach. Nid wyf yn sicr a fyddaf yn rhedeg marathon yn fy wyth degau, os wyf yn ddigon ffodus i fyw mor hen â hynny, ond fe wn fod hen bobl heddiw’n achub ar y cyfle i fyw bywydau llawn a bywiog ac mae hynny’n beth cadarnhaol. Mae Prifysgol y Drydedd Oes yn cynnig cyfleoedd gwych a, drwy’r corff hwnnw, mae llawer o hen bobl yn gwneud graddau ac yn astudio ar bob lefel, gan gadw eu meddyliau’n effro a chwrdd â phobl newydd.
The Assembly, and Government in general, must accept this new reality and realise that there is growing confidence and independence among older people. We must foster that and enable older people to be independent. I welcome the recommendation that we ensure that older people can participate fully in every aspect of society. It is about dignity, and respect for the lives they have lived and the wisdom and experience that they have accumulated. There is a view that other countries and cultures accord older people much more respect. We must ensure that older people in Wales get the respect to which they are entitled. Age discrimination is wrong and must be tackled.
Rhaid i’r Cynulliad, a Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol, dderbyn y realiti newydd hwn a sylweddoli bod ymdeimlad cynyddol o hyder ac annibyniaeth ymysg pobl hŷn. Rhaid inni feithrin hynny a galluogi pobl hŷn i fod yn annibynnol. Croesawaf yr argymhelliad y dylem sicrhau bod pobl hŷn yn gallu cyfranogi’n llawn ym mhob agwedd ar gymdeithas. Mae hyn yn ymwneud ag urddas, a pharch at y bywyd y maent wedi’i fyw a’r doethineb a’r profiad y maent wedi’u hennill. Mynegwyd barn fod gwledydd a diwylliannau eraill yn rhoi mwy o barch i bobl hŷn. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl hŷn yng Nghymru’n derbyn y parch priodol. Mae gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran yn anghywir a rhaid mynd i’r afael ag ef.
Some companies make a point of employing older people and prosper as a result. Taking an enlightened approach helps their business, because they can draw on older people’s experience and accumulated wisdom. In its strategy, the Assembly should lead the way in changing mindsets and perceptions so that old age is viewed more positively and realistically. I welcome the recommendations about challenging and addressing ageism and other forms of discrimination, and promoting more positive images. Older people are a great resource in terms of voluntary work and community activities. We must use their experience and time better.
Mae rhai cwmnïau’n cyflogi pobl hŷn o fwriad ac yn ffynnu o ganlyniad. Mae eu hymagwedd oleuedig yn helpu eu busnes, am eu bod yn gallu manteisio ar y profiad a’r doethineb y mae pobl hŷn wedi’u hennill. Yn ei strategaeth, dylai’r Cynulliad arwain y ffordd wrth newid cyfeiriadau meddwl a chanfyddiadau fel bod y farn am henaint yn fwy cadarnhaol a realistig. Croesawaf yr argymhellion am herio ac ymdrin ag oedraniaeth a ffurfiau eraill o wahaniaethu, a hybu delweddau mwy cadarnhaol. Mae pobl hŷn yn adnodd gwych o ran gwaith gwirfoddol a gweithgareddau cymunedol. Rhaid inni ddefnyddio’u profiad a’u hamser yn well.
To combat poverty and poor housing, we must ensure that older people are better informed about benefits and that more of them are persuaded to take up benefits. Life opportunities exist, but poverty stops some pensioners taking full advantage of them. We must tackle that.
Er mwyn ymladd tlodi a thai gwael, rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl hŷn wedi’u hysbysu’n well am fudd-daliadau a bod mwy ohonynt yn cael eu darbwyllo i dderbyn budd-daliadau. Mae cyfleoedd oes yn bodoli, ond mae tlodi’n atal rhai pensiynwyr rhag manteisio’n llawn arnynt. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hynny.
We must ensure that the Government and the Assembly recognises the new reality of old age, and takes decisions on that basis. A more realistic and positive view of old age should prevail. Only if that happens will we ensure that the opportunities for an active and fulfilled old age are fostered across Wales.
Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad yn cydnabod realiti newydd henaint, ac yn gwneud penderfyniadau ar sail hynny. Dylid derbyn agwedd fwy realistig a chadarnhaol at henaint. Dim ond os digwydd hynny y bydd modd inni sicrhau y caiff cyfleoedd am henaint bywiog a chyflawn eu hybu ledled Cymru.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 53
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
We should celebrate the fact that so many more people live substantially longer and have generally healthier lives. Older people make a great contribution to Wales and all of us will benefit from that as years go by. The challenge is to ensure that we have the policies and programmes to enable older people to make the most of the opportunities that they have in Wales and that high quality services and choice are available when they need care and support. However, as Age Concern said in response to the strategy, this must not be seen as just health and social care territory. I am pleased that the strategy’s all-embracing nature has been welcomed by everyone today. I, too, thank Brian for chairing the advisory group, and all those Members and officials who helped develop it.
Dylem ddathlu’r ffaith bod cynifer o bobl yn byw’n hwy o lawer a bod ganddynt fywydau mwy iach at ei gilydd. Mae pobl hŷn yn gwneud cyfraniad mawr i Gymru a bydd pob un ohonom yn cael budd o hynny wrth i’r blynyddoedd fynd heibio. Yr her yw sicrhau bod gennym bolisïau a rhaglenni priodol i alluogi pobl hŷn i wneud y gorau o’r cyfleoedd sydd ganddynt yng Nghymru a bod gwasanaethau a dewis o ansawdd da ar gael pan fo arnynt angen gofal a chymorth. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Gofal Henoed yn ei ymateb i’r strategaeth, ni ddylid ystyried hyn yn faes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn unig. Yr wyf yn falch bod natur hollgynhwysfawr y strategaeth wedi’i chroesawu gan bawb heddiw. Yr wyf finnau’n diolch i Brian am gadeirio’r grŵp ymgynghorol, ac i’r holl Aelodau a swyddogion hynny a helpodd i’w datblygu.
As Jocelyn, Eleanor and John said, we must consider ageism. That is tackled in chapter 2. Other equality issues are also relevant, and the Committee on Equality of Opportunity may wish to tackle that. We want a voice for older people in politics and communities, as Janice and Christine said, and even to open up whole new horizons, such as running marathons, which John mentioned—I do not think that I will be joining the 90-year-olds in that challenge.
Fel y dywedodd Jocelyn, Eleanor a John, rhaid inni ystyried oedraniaeth. Ymdrinnir â hynny ym mhennod 2. Mae materion cydraddoldeb eraill yn berthnasol hefyd, ac mae’n bosibl y bydd y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn dymuno mynd i’r afael â hynny. Yr ydym am gael llais i bobl hŷn mewn gwleidyddiaeth a chymunedau, fel y dywedodd Janice a Christine, a hyd yn oed agor meysydd cwbl newydd, fel rhedeg marathonau, a grybwyllodd John—nid wyf yn credu y byddaf yn ymuno â’r rhai naw deg oed yn yr her honno.
As Val and Peter Black mentioned, the strategy is about housing, lifelong learning—you are right that the University of the Third Age has an important role—transport, and education, as well as health and social care. This is a cross-cutting issue and that will inform the Welsh Assembly Government’s response.
Fel y nododd Val a Peter Black, mae’r strategaeth yn ymwneud â thai, dysgu gydol oes—yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud bod rôl bwysig i Brifysgol y Drydedd Oes—trafnidiaeth, ac addysg, yn ogystal ag iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Mater trawsbynciol yw hwn a bydd hynny’n goleuo ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.
On free personal care, today’s motion confirms the advisory group’s conclusions as Welsh Assembly Government policy. Following today’s debate, I will write to Paul Murphy to support the advisory group’s recommendation that this issue be addressed in the context of UK taxation and benefits policy. Like the advisory group, the Welsh Assembly Government is clear that it would be impractical for the Assembly to pursue a policy of free personal care in Wales. If we are not successful, Kirsty, we will press the UK Government for the powers and resources to consider the matter in Wales.
Ynghylch gofal personol am ddim, mae’r cynnig heddiw’n cadarnhau mai casgliadau’r grŵp ymgynghorol yw polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Ar ôl y ddadl heddiw, byddaf yn ysgrifennu at Paul Murphy i gefnogi argymhelliad y grŵp ymgynghorol y dylid rhoi sylw i’r mater hwn yng nghyd-destun polisi trethiant a budd-daliadau’r DU. Fel y grŵp ymgynghorol, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn bendant y byddai’n anymarferol i’r Cynulliad ddilyn polisi o ofal personol am ddim yng Nghymru. Os na lwyddwn, Kirsty, byddwn yn pwyso ar Lywodraeth y DU am y pwerau a’r adnoddau priodol i ystyried y mater yng Nghymru.
The UK Government has formally responded to the royal commission. Will you now ask it to withdraw its response rejecting the funding of personal care from general taxation and issue a new one? Do you realistically hope that the UK Government will do that?
Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi ymateb yn ffurfiol i’r comisiwn brenhinol. A wnewch chi ofyn yn awr iddi dynnu’n ôl ei hymateb a oedd yn gwrthod ariannu gofal personol o drethiant cyffredinol a chyhoeddi un newydd? A ydych yn gobeithio o ddifrif y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn gwneud hynny?
I have made it clear that I will write to Paul Murphy in support of the advisory group’s recommendation that this issue should be addressed in the context of UK taxation and benefits policy, and to ensure that those views are shared with the UK Government.
Yr wyf wedi rhoi ar ddeall y byddaf yn ysgrifennu at Paul Murphy i gefnogi argymhelliad y grŵp ymgynghorol y dylid rhoi sylw i’r mater hwn yng nghyd-destun polisi trethiant a budd-daliadau’r DU, ac i sicrhau y rhennir y farn honno â Llywodraeth y DU.
As Kirsty and Ann say, we are developing a distinctive Welsh policy of long-term care and support.
Fel y dywed Kirsty ac Ann, yr ydym yn datblygu polisi Cymreig neilltuol ar ofal a chymorth hirdymor.
Gan eich bod yn trafod materion cyllid a threthiant, a wnewch sicrhau y bydd egwyddorion pwysig y Cynulliad ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy, cyfle cyfartal a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol yn rhan annatod o’r strategaeth?
While you are discussing budget and taxation issues, will you give an assurance that the Assembly’s important principles on sustainable development, equality of opportunity and social inclusion will be an integral part of the strategy?
Those principles are in every chapter of the report and have clearly steered and influenced the advisory group.
Mae’r egwyddorion hynny ym mhob pennod o’r adroddiad ac mae’n amlwg eu bod wedi llywio a dylanwadu ar y grŵp ymgynghorol.
To return to the distinctive Welsh policy that we are developing, it is coherent and it is about building on flexibility, as Gwenda Thomas said, and developing health and wellbeing strategies that the local health boards will have the statutory responsibility to implement. Older people will be engaged at a community level to help develop those strategies. The fundamental principles of the Welsh strategy for older people are maximising independence, alleviating financial hardship and providing fairness and opportunity. We need the increases to our budget to deliver our aspirations for older people, Dai. There is much to be done. We are progressing the reform of charging arrangements in Wales, including free nursing care for self-funders at a much higher level than is the case in England and Scotland. A review of capital limits will examine the needs of low income owner-occupiers, of whom we have a large number in Wales.
I fynd yn ôl at y polisi Cymreig neilltuol yr ydym yn ei ddatblygu, mae’n un cydlynol ac mae’n ymwneud ag adeiladu ar sail hyblygrwydd, fel y dywedodd Gwenda Thomas, a datblygu strategaethau iechyd a lles y bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn statudol gyfrifol am eu gweithredu. Bydd rhan gan bobl hŷn ar lefel y gymuned i helpu i ddatblygu’r strategaethau hynny. Egwyddorion sylfaenol y strategaeth Gymreig i bobl hŷn yw mwyhau annibyniaeth, lliniaru cyni ariannol a darparu tegwch a chyfle. Mae arnom angen y codiadau yn ein cyllideb i gyflawni’n dyheadau ar gyfer pobl hŷn, Dai. Mae llawer i’w wneud. Yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen â diwygio’r trefniadau codi tâl yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys gofal nyrsio am ddim i rai sy’n eu hariannu eu hunain ar lefel uwch o lawer nag a geir yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Bydd adolygiad o’r terfynau cyfalaf yn archwilio anghenion perchnogion preswyl ag incwm isel, y mae gennym nifer fawr ohonynt yng Nghymru.
As Ann and Peter remarked, we have a 12-week disregard of capital assets when somebody goes into care. Also, six weeks’ free home care following hospital discharge was announced in April. That provides us with a great opportunity, Gwenda, to develop the kind of coherent, local provision you mentioned. There are also regulations that allow local authorities to take charge over a person’s home to pay for care, rather than selling the home during their lifetime, as Peter Black mentioned, and statutory guidance to achieve greater fairness in charging for domiciliary care, which we have been debating in Committee. Part of that guidance, Jocelyn, will ensure that local authorities take on board the need for advice on benefits. Our funding of the Citizens Advice Bureaux campaign, Better Advice: Better Health, on the take-up of benefits in every local health board area in Wales, will help achieve the important aim of increasing the take-up of benefits.
Fel y soniodd Ann a Peter, mae gennym anwybyddiad 12 wythnos o asedau cyfalaf pan fo rhywun yn cael ei dderbyn i ofal. Hefyd, cyhoeddwyd gofal yn y cartref am ddim am chwe wythnos ar ôl rhyddhau o’r ysbyty yn Ebrill. Mae hynny’n rhoi cyfle gwych i ni, Gwenda, i ddatblygu’r math o ddarpariaeth gydlynol, leol y soniasoch amdani. Mae rheoliadau hefyd sy’n caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol fynd yn gyfrifol am gartref rhywun i dalu am ofal, yn hytrach na gwerthu’r cartref yn ystod ei oes, fel y soniodd Peter Black, a chyfarwyddyd statudol i sicrhau mwy o degwch wrth godi tâl am ofal yn y cartref, y buom yn ei drafod yn y Pwyllgor. Bydd rhan o’r cyfarwyddyd hwnnw, Jocelyn, yn sicrhau bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn cymryd i ystyriaeth yr angen am gyngor ar fudd-daliadau. Bydd yr arian a roesom at ymgyrch y Canolfannau Cynghori, Gwell Cyngor: Gwell Iechyd, ar y derbyniad o fudd-daliadau yn ardal pob bwrdd iechyd lleol yng Nghymru, yn gymorth i sicrhau’r nod bwysig o gynyddu’r derbyniad o fudd-daliadau.
You know, Rhodri Glyn, that we have established a care strategy group, chaired by Professor Ken Woodhouse, to tackle the care homes situation, and £17 million will go to local government over two years to address this problem. The responsibility lies with local authorities, and we are considering, through the Wales programme for improvement, the strategic approach that they need to take.
Fe wyddoch, Rhodri Glyn, ein bod wedi sefydlu grŵp strategaeth gofal, dan gadeiryddiaeth yr Athro Ken Woodhouse, i fynd i’r afael â sefyllfa’r cartrefi gofal, a bydd £17 miliwn yn mynd i lywodraeth leol dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf i ymdrin â’r broblem hon. Gan yr awdurdodau lleol y mae’r cyfrifoldeb, ac yr ydym yn ystyried, drwy raglen Cymru ar gyfer gwella, y strategaeth y mae angen iddynt ei dilyn.
Did I hear you say that £17 million will go to local authorities throughout Wales? The assessment for Carmarthenshire states that, if you opt for the higher standards, you will need to invest £20 million.
A ddywedasoch y bydd £17 miliwn yn mynd i’r awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru? Mae’r asesiad i sir Gaerfyrddin yn datgan, os dewiswch y safonau uwch, y bydd yn rhaid ichi fuddsoddi £20 miliwn.
Local government and our partners in the care sector are pleased that the Welsh Assembly Government ring-fenced an extra £17 million for local authorities to help them deal with delayed transfers of care. That is the partnership that they want. This is a substantial package of reforms to tackle unfairness and to reduce the pressures on individuals in a way that is affordable and allows us to most effectively target the resources available. This Welsh package of reforms forms our response to the royal commission. I thank the advisory group for helping us to take this forward. We must remember that the advisory group spent over a year considering these issues. We must give it credit for taking longer than we are taking today to consider these challenging issues. This is about deciding what older people want by listening to them, and recognising that we all have a responsibility to make that a priority in terms of our budgets, powers and responsibilities.
Mae llywodraeth leol a’n partneriaid yn y sector gofal yn falch bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi pridiannu £17 miliwn ychwanegol i’r awdurdodau lleol i’w helpu i ddelio ag oedi mewn trosglwyddiadau gofal. Dyna’r math o bartneriaeth y maent am ei chael. Mae hwn yn becyn sylweddol o ddiwygiadau i fynd i’r afael ag annhegwch a lleihau’r pwysau ar unigolion mewn modd sy’n fforddiadwy ac yn caniatáu inni dargedu’r adnoddau sydd ar gael yn fwyaf effeithiol. Y pecyn diwygiadau Cymreig hwn yw ein hymateb i’r comisiwn brenhinol. Diolchaf i’r grŵp ymgynghorol am ein helpu i fwrw ymlaen â hyn. Rhaid inni gofio bod y grŵp ymgynghorol wedi treulio dros flwyddyn yn ystyried y materion hyn. Rhaid inni ei ganmol am gymryd mwy nag yr ydym ni’n ei gymryd heddiw i ystyried y materion anodd hyn. Mae hynny’n golygu penderfynu ar yr hyn y mae ar bobl hŷn ei angen drwy wrando arnynt, a chydnabod bod cyfrifoldeb ar bob un ohonom i flaenoriaethu hynny yn ein cyllidebau, ein pwerau a’n cyfrifoldebau.
This strategy provides the way forward; it is a beacon, as Peter Law said, of good practice. More importantly, the action that will flow from it will be seen in years to come as one of the Assembly’s defining achievements.
Mae’r strategaeth hon yn dangos y ffordd ymlaen; mae’n esiampl o arfer da, fel y dywedodd Peter Law. Yn bwysicach na hynny, bydd y gweithredu a fydd yn deillio ohoni’n cael ei ystyried yn y blynyddoedd i ddod yn un o gyflawniadau diffiniol y Cynulliad.
Gwelliant 1 David Melding t. 57
Amendment 1 David Melding p. 57
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 17 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (17)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 David Lloyd t. 57
Amendment 2 David Lloyd p. 57
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 13 Yn erbynAgainst 22
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
YmatalAbstain (13)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
Gwelliant 3 David Lloyd t. 58
Amendment 3 David Lloyd p. 58
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
YmatalAbstain (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1053 Brian Gibbons t. 59
Motion NDM1053 Brian Gibbons p. 59
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.1, sy’n caniatáu i Aelodau siarad yn Gymraeg neu yn Saesneg. Rhaid inni gael yr adnoddau priodol er mwyn gwneud hynny. Yr oedd adroddiad y grŵp ymgynghorol ar strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn yn adnodd holl bwysig i ddadl heddiw. Fodd bynnag, dim ond fersiwn Saesneg oedd ar gael. Achosodd hyn benbleth i mi. Cytunaf â’ch dyfarniad i’m rhwystro rhag siarad oherwydd nad oeddwn yma ar ddechrau’r ddadl. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd fy absenoldeb yn ymwneud â’r ffaith nad oedd y ddogfen ar gael yn ddwyieithog. Efallai ei bod yn gostus ac yn anodd cael cyfieithiad llawn o bob adroddiad a ddaw ger ein bron, ond dylem o leiaf gael cyfieithiad o’r crynodeb ac o’r argymhellion; byddai hynny o gymorth mawr.
Point of order. I raise this point of order under Standing Order No. 7.1, which permits Members to speak in either Welsh or English. We must have the appropriate resources in order to do that. The advisory group’s report on a strategy for older people was a crucial resource to today’s debate. However, it was only available in English. This caused me some confusion. I agree with your decision to prevent me from speaking because I was not present at the start of the debate. However, my absence was related to the fact that the document was not available bilingually. It may be costly and difficult to provide a full translation of all reports that come before us, but we should at least have a translation of the summary and of the recommendations; that would be of great help.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
I will make inquires and refer the matter to the Presiding Officer. If necessary, I will ask him to make a statement next week.
Gwnaf ymholiadau a chyfeirio’r mater at y Llywydd. Os bydd angen, gofynnaf iddo wneud datganiad yr wythnos nesaf.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Cyfranogiad Pobl Ifanc mewn Gwleidyddiaeth
The Participation of Young People in Politics
I am delighted that we are having this debate, which has been rescheduled twice, at long last. I will be cheeky and declare an obvious interest in the title of the debate.
Yr wyf wrth fy modd ein bod yn cael y ddadl hon o’r diwedd, a hithau wedi’i hailamserlennu ddwywaith. Byddaf yn ddigywilydd a datgan buddiant amlwg yn nheitl y ddadl hon.
That is ageist.
Mae hynny’n oedraniaethol.
Listen to the rest of my speech, Mick. I have agreed to let Eleanor Burnham, Owen John Thomas and Christine Chapman contribute to the debate, according to convention.
Gwrandewch ar weddill fy araith, Mick. Yr wyf wedi cytuno i adael i Eleanor Burnham, Owen John Thomas a Christine Chapman gyfrannu i’r ddadl, yn unol â’r arfer.
I chose this topic for three reasons. First, I am the youngest Assembly Member, as I have mentioned on several occasions. I feel passionately that we should do all we can to open up the political process in Cardiff bay and to engage with people, especially those of my generation, who find this sort of institution a turn-off. Secondly, we are three years into the first Assembly, and this is a timely opportunity for us to examine the impact of the younger generation on elected politics, particularly in a post-devolution Britain, and to examine whether the Assembly has taken the necessary steps to interact with young people. Thirdly, I chose this topic because the conventional view that young people are somehow not interested in the political process and political issues must be continuously and publicly challenged.
Dewisais y pwnc hwn am dri rheswm. Yn gyntaf, myfi yw’r Aelod Cynulliad ieuengaf, fel yr wyf wedi crybwyll sawl gwaith. Teimlaf yn angerddol y dylem wneud popeth a allwn i agor y broses wleidyddol ym mae Caerdydd a chysylltu â phobl, yn enwedig y rhai yn fy nghenhedlaeth i, sy’n cael eu diflasu gan sefydliad o’r math hwn. Yn ail, mae tair blynedd o’r Cynulliad cyntaf wedi mynd heibio, ac mae hyn yn gyfle amserol inni archwilio effaith y genhedlaeth iau ar wleidyddiaeth etholiadol, yn enwedig ym Mhrydain ar ôl datganoli, ac i ystyried a yw’r Cynulliad wedi cymryd y camau angenrheidiol i ryngweithio â phobl ifanc. Yn drydydd, dewisais y pwnc hwn am fod rhaid herio’n barhaus ac yn gyhoeddus y farn gonfensiynol nad yw pobl ifanc rywsut yn ymddiddori yn y broses wleidyddol a materion gwleidyddol.
Opening up the political process is a key theme of this institution. Themes, ideas and good intentions are all very well, but the opportunities for young people to influence what happens here are still limited. Research undertaken by the BBC and organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Institute for Public Policy Research and the Adam Smith Institute indicates a growing problem in attitudes towards parties, politicians and elected bodies such as the Assembly. The BBC’s research and ongoing work on this topic is impressive, and provides the basis for further work. The research is important because, according to recent work by the IPPR, young people, especially those aged between 18 and 24, are less likely to register and vote than the population as a whole. Ensuring that a greater proportion of young people vote in local and national elections is only part of the challenge. More important is finding more sustainable ways of including young people in public policy discussions.
Agor y broses wleidyddol yw thema allweddol y sefydliad hwn. Mae themâu, syniadau a bwriadau da yn iawn, ond mae’r cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc ddylanwadu ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yma’n gyfyngedig o hyd. Mae ymchwil gan y BBC a chyrff fel Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree, y Sefydliad Ymchwil Polisi Cyhoeddus a Sefydliad Adam Smith yn dangos problem gynyddol o ran yr agweddau at bleidiau, gwleidyddion a chyrff etholedig fel y Cynulliad. Mae ymchwil a gwaith parhaus y BBC ar y pwnc hwn yn drawiadol, ac yn sail i waith pellach. Mae’r ymchwil yn bwysig oherwydd, yn ôl gwaith diweddar gan y Sefydliad Ymchwil Polisi Cyhoeddus, mae pobl ifanc, yn enwedig y rhai rhwng 18 a 24 oed, yn llai tebygol o gofrestru a phleidleisio na’r boblogaeth yn ei chyfanrwydd. Dim ond un rhan o’r her yw sicrhau bod cyfran fwy o bobl ifanc yn pleidleisio mewn etholiadau lleol a chenedlaethol. Pwysicach na hynny yw darganfod dulliau mwy cynaliadwy o gynnwys pobl ifanc mewn trafodaethau ar bolisi cyhoeddus.
Political parties, while largely viewed in a negative light by young people, should promote elected politics as a career. It may appear strange to say that we must start to do that. As members of parties, we cannot afford to be defeatist simply because young people do not always flock to the cause of party politics. We are the only profession in the world that seems damned useless at proactive public recruitment. We can recruit civil servants and support staff for politicians, but we are not doing enough to promote the profession of the elected politician to a younger generation. As we can all appreciate, it is a somewhat predictable career, but elected institutions such as this will have a limited future if we do not see young people elected.
Er mai barn negyddol sydd gan bobl ifanc am y pleidiau gwleidyddol gan mwyaf, fe ddylent hwy hyrwyddo gwleidyddiaeth etholiadol fel gyrfa. Gallai ymddangos yn rhyfedd fy mod yn dweud bod yn rhaid inni wneud hynny. Fel aelodau o bleidiau, ni allwn fforddio bod yn wangalon dim ond am nad yw pobl ifanc bob amser yn heidio i gefnogi gwleidyddiaeth blaid. Ni yw’r unig broffesiwn yn y byd sy’n ymddangos yn felltigedig o aneffeithiol wrth recriwtio’n rhagweithiol ymysg y cyhoedd. Gallwn recriwtio gweision sifil a staff cynorthwyol i wleidyddion, ond nid ydym yn gwneud digon i hyrwyddo proffesiwn y gwleidydd etholedig ymysg y genhedlaeth iau. Fel y gallwn oll werthfawrogi, mae’n yrfa ragweladwy braidd, ond dyfodol cyfyngedig fydd i sefydliadau etholedig fel hwn os na welwn ethol pobl ifanc.
There are four Assembly Members—if I may refer to David Davies, Alun Cairns, Kirsty Williams and myself, without insulting anybody else—who were all under the age of 30 when elected here three years ago. The impact of the younger generation of Assembly Members should be used to encourage the younger generation to consider politics as a career, and also to participate in politics and in the decisions that we take here. We need new people and new ideas and not to be shackled to the kind of image that turns people off. We need a new image, created in this post devolution era, which inspires confidence that life in Cardiff bay is somewhat different from the yah-boo environment of Westminster.
Mae pedwar Aelod Cynulliad—os caf gyfeirio at David Davies, Alun Cairns, Kirsty Williams a minnau, heb sarhau neb arall—a oedd dan 30 oed pan etholwyd hwy i’r fan hon dair blynedd yn ôl. Dylid defnyddio effaith y genhedlaeth iau o Aelodau Cynulliad i annog y genhedlaeth iau i ystyried gwleidyddiaeth yn yrfa, a hefyd i gymryd rhan mewn gwleidyddiaeth ac yn y penderfyniadau a wnawn yma. Mae arnom angen pobl newydd a syniadau newydd a rhaid inni beidio â chael ein llyffetheirio gan y math o ddelwedd sy’n diflasu pobl. Mae arnom angen delwedd newydd, wedi’i chreu yn yr oes ôl-ddatganoli hon, sy’n ennyn hyder bod bywyd ym mae Caerdydd rywfaint yn wahanol i amgylchedd cecrus San Steffan.
If you examine what the younger generation of politicians have done in Cardiff bay—and in Scotland and Northern Ireland—and the range of issues that have excited us, the campaigns that we have been involved in, and the persistence with which we have worked, our enthusiasm for this job is clear. We all have different styles and views, and we are not afraid to express them, but there is one strand that unites us: young people in this institution want to contribute to debate in this new political arena. We are not untypical of many thousands of young people throughout Wales, who also want to contribute but who, for whatever reason, feel that this institution, and politicians in general, are out of touch and out of reach.
Os edrychwch ar yr hyn a wnaeth y genhedlaeth iau o wleidyddion ym mae Caerdydd—ac yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon—a’r amrediad o bynciau sydd wedi’n cynhyrfu, yr ymgyrchoedd y buom â rhan ynddynt, a’n dyfalbarhad yn ein gwaith, mae ein brwdfrydedd dros y gwaith yn amlwg. Mae gennym oll arddulliau a safbwyntiau gwahanol, ac nid oes arnom ofn eu mynegi, ond mae un llinyn sy’n ein huno: mae’r bobl ifanc yn y sefydliad hwn am gyfrannu i’r dadleuon yn yr ymrysonfa wleidyddol newydd hon. Nid ydym yn annodweddiadol o’r miloedd lawer o bobl ifanc ledled Cymru, sydd hefyd am gyfrannu ond sydd, am ba reswm bynnag, yn teimlo bod y sefydliad hwn, a gwleidyddion yn gyffredinol, wedi colli cysylltiad a’u bod allan o gyrraedd.
If this institution—and democracy, in terms of the elected parliaments and institutions of Britain—is to succeed in the long term, then we need to address the difficult issue of a generation that has less intention than any other of expressing its will at the ballot box. Without a healthy turnover of younger politicians, the stale nature of politics—whether that be local government or national politics—will continue to assist this process of disengagement. We have seen that in many Welsh local authorities. In the run-up to the English local elections in May, several young politicians decided to become radio DJs and broadcast their own shows. Have no fear: I have no intention of starting to wear a baseball cap and I am not convinced that gimmicks will convince the public and the younger generation to take politics seriously. Nor am I convinced—and research bears this out—that changing or extending polling day, putting ballot boxes in shopping centres, or extending postal votes, will convince the younger generation to vote. Young people do not want to vote, and we must ask ourselves what it is we are doing which contributes to that dangerous process.
Os yw’r sefydliad hwn—a democratiaeth, o ran seneddau a sefydliadau etholedig Prydain—i lwyddo yn y tymor hir, rhaid inni ymdrin â mater anodd cenhedlaeth sydd â llai o fwriad na’r un arall o fynegi ei hewyllys drwy’r blwch pleidleisio. Heb gael trosiant iach o wleidyddion iau, bydd natur ddiflas gwleidyddiaeth—boed hynny mewn llywodraeth leol neu mewn gwleidyddiaeth genedlaethol—yn dal i hybu’r broses hon o ymddieithrio. Gwelsom hynny mewn llawer o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru. Yn y cyfnod cyn etholiadau lleol Lloegr ym Mai, penderfynodd nifer o wleidyddion ifanc fynd yn droellwyr disgiau ar y radio a darlledu eu sioeau eu hunain. Peidiwch â phoeni: nid wyf yn bwriadu dechrau gwisgo cap pêl fas ac nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi y bydd gimigau’n darbwyllo’r cyhoedd a’r genhedlaeth iau i gymryd gwleidyddiaeth o ddifrif. Nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi ychwaith—ac mae ymchwil yn ategu hyn—y bydd newid neu ymestyn y diwrnod pleidleisio, rhoi blychau pleidleisio mewn canolfannau siopa, neu ymestyn pleidleisio drwy’r post, yn darbwyllo’r genhedlaeth iau i bleidleisio. Nid yw pobl ifanc am bleidleisio, a rhaid inni ofyn i ni’n hunain beth yr ydym yn ei wneud sy’n cyfrannu at y broses beryglus honno.
I mentioned earlier that young people are interested in issues and debates, but do not feel that we listen to their views. The Llais Ifanc/Young Voice initiative was a welcome start. However, it would be appropriate at this point in our term of office to hear of progress and responses. How many young people have expressed an interest in the schemes that we have run? How does the Government of Wales follow up the ideas, views and interests expressed by young people? One main complaint discovered in the research was that young people felt that sitting in front of a computer and offering information about their interests and views on the internet was even more disengaging than sitting in front of a politician. While modern technology may be useful and swift, it is not the same as putting politicians and policy decision-makers in a room with young people to listen to their views. Research seems to suggest that youth fora are the most positive method of youth involvement. The European Youth Parliament discussions in this Chamber have offered the kind of environment in which young people at school can debate issues. However, that scheme provides an opportunity for those who, in all probability, would have the confidence to voice their opinions even if the forum did not exist. Creating interest and debate at school can influence involvement in issues beyond the school setting and into adult life. We should congratulate the education team in the Assembly, which has done sterling work in organising 433 visits for educational groups since 1999. Many of those visits are linked to the curriculum and developing the personal and social education agenda. However, not everybody would feel that visiting this institution is important. It is all very well attacking disengagement at school level, but disengagement is greatest among those aged 18 to 24. Some evidence suggests that it extends beyond that, to those heading into their early thirties.
Dywedais yn gynharach fod pobl ifanc yn ymddiddori mewn pynciau a dadleuon, ond nad ydynt yn teimlo ein bod yn gwrando ar eu barn. Yr oedd menter Llais Ifanc/Young Voice yn fan cychwyn sydd i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n briodol ar yr adeg hon yn ein tymor yn y swydd glywed am y cynnydd a’r ymatebion. Faint o bobl ifanc sydd wedi mynegi diddordeb yn y cynlluniau yr ydym wedi’u gweithredu? Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n dilyn y syniadau, y barnau a’r diddordebau a fynegir gan bobl ifanc? Un o’r prif gwynion a ddarganfuwyd yn yr ymchwil oedd bod pobl ifanc yn teimlo bod eistedd o flaen cyfrifiadur a chynnig gwybodaeth am eu diddordebau a’u safbwyntiau ar y rhyngrwyd yn fwy ymddieithriol hyd yn oed nag eistedd o flaen gwleidydd. Er y gallai technoleg fodern fod yn ddefnyddiol ac yn gyflym, nid yw’r un peth â rhoi gwleidyddion a’r rhai sy’n penderfynu ar bolisi mewn ystafell gyda phobl ifanc i wrando ar eu barn. Ymddengys fod yr ymchwil yn awgrymu mai fforymau ieuenctid yw’r dull mwyaf cadarnhaol o gynnwys ieuenctid. Mae trafodaethau Senedd Ieuenctid Ewrop yn y Siambr hon wedi cynnig y math o amgylchedd lle y gall pobl ifanc yn yr ysgol drafod pynciau. Er hynny, mae’r cynllun hwnnw’n cynnig cyfle i’r rhai a fyddai, yn ôl pob tebyg, yn ddigon hyderus i ddatgan eu barn hyd yn oed os nad oedd y fforwm yn bodoli. Mae creu diddordeb a dadlau yn yr ysgol yn gallu dylanwadu ar y rhan a gymerir mewn materion y tu allan i’r ysgol ac ar ôl dod i oed. Dylem longyfarch y tîm addysg yn y Cynulliad, a wnaeth waith rhagorol wrth drefnu 433 o ymweliadau i grwpiau addysgol ers 1999. Yr oedd llawer o’r ymweliadau hynny’n gysylltiedig â’r cwricwlwm a datblygu’r agenda addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, nid pawb a deimlai fod ymweld â’r sefydliad hwn yn bwysig. Un peth yw ymladd ymddieithrio ar lefel yr ysgol, ond mae ymddieithrio ar ei fwyaf ymysg y rhai 18 i 24 oed. Mae rhywfaint o dystiolaeth ei fod yn ymestyn y tu hwnt i hynny, i’r rhai yn eu tri degau cynnar.
In terms of those who are less confident but no less interested in politics, we face a difficult challenge. How do we ensure that the views of those young people who lack the confidence to come to the Assembly, become as important to us as they are to them? Perhaps we could expand the remit of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity—I do not know whether that would be possible—to include the cross-cutting theme of young people. We could then consider, in depth, youth disengagement, how we feed young people’s views into policy development, and how we can ensure that a generation that is becoming somewhat lost, becomes important in our consultations on legislative matters. The seriousness of this issue warrants swift action. Again, I do not know whether this is possible, but the Assembly could also consider how it shows young people that we take them, and their views on issues and policies, seriously. We should show them that we consider their views to be as important as those of the established, usual suspects that make up our standard list of consultees.
O ran y rhai sy’n llai hyderus ond sy’n ymddiddori mewn gwleidyddiaeth i’r un graddau, yr ydym yn wynebu her anodd. Sut y gallwn sicrhau y bydd barn y bobl ifanc hynny nad ydynt yn ddigon hyderus i ddod i’r Cynulliad, yn dod yr un mor bwysig inni ag y mae iddynt hwy? Efallai y gallem ehangu cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal—ni wn a fyddai modd gwneud hynny—i gynnwys thema drawsbynciol pobl ifanc. Wedyn, gallem ystyried, yn fanwl, ymddieithrio ymysg pobl ifanc, sut yr ydym yn cynnwys barn pobl ifanc yn y gwaith o ddatblygu polisi, a sut y gallwn sicrhau bod y genhedlaeth honno sy’n mynd ar goll braidd yn dod yn bwysig yn ein hymgyngoriadau ar faterion deddfwriaethol. Mae difrifoldeb y mater hwn yn cyfiawnhau gweithredu cyflym. Unwaith eto, ni wn a yw hyn yn bosibl, ond gallai’r Cynulliad ystyried hefyd sut y mae’n dangos i bobl ifanc ein bod yn eu cymryd hwy, a’u barn ar faterion a pholisïau, o ddifrif. Dylem ddangos iddynt ein bod yn ystyried bod eu barn yr un mor bwysig ag un criw arferol y sefydliad sy’n ffurfio ein rhestr safonol o ymgynghoreion.
The Assembly should aim to actively encourage schools, colleges, universities, and youth associations to become involved in furthering discussions on matters of interest among young people. I have always been suspicious of using educational institutions in Wales to promote citizenship, but I am coming round to the argument that the Assembly and its advisory bodies should examine the role of schools and how they can develop awareness of community issues. Young people should be able to debate these issues within our schools. We should not be afraid of allowing schools the freedom to develop young people’s ability to think and discuss issues.
Dylai’r Cynulliad geisio mynd ati o ddifrif i annog ysgolion, colegau, prifysgolion a chymdeithasau ieuenctid i gymryd rhan mewn hyrwyddo trafodaethau ar faterion sydd o ddiddordeb ymysg pobl ifanc. Yr wyf wastad wedi bod yn amheus o ddefnyddio sefydliadau addysgol yng Nghymru i hybu dinasyddiaeth, ond yr wyf yn dechrau cael fy mherswadio y dylai’r Cynulliad a’i gyrff ymgynghorol archwilio rôl ysgolion a sut y gallant feithrin ymwybyddiaeth o faterion cymunedol. Dylai pobl ifanc allu trafod y materion hyn yn ein hysgolion. Ni ddylem ofni rhoi rhyddid i ysgolion ddatblygu gallu pobl ifanc i feddwl a thrafod pynciau.
In conclusion, youth disengagement, and the lack of young people involved in the political process, threatens the future of democracy. Research bears out that those young people who are currently uninterested in politics show no sign of becoming more interested in it as they age. Therefore, we are in danger of losing this generation, and the next, for good. We should begin to challenge this decline, and consider what the Assembly can do in that respect.
I gloi, mae ymddieithrio ymysg yr ifanc, a phrinder y bobl ifanc sy’n cymryd rhan yn y broses wleidyddol, yn bygwth dyfodol democratiaeth. Mae ymchwil yn dangos nad yw’r bobl ifanc hynny sydd â dim diddordeb mewn gwleidyddiaeth ar hyn o bryd yn dangos unrhyw arwydd o ymddiddori’n fwy ynddi wrth iddynt fynd yn hŷn. Felly, mae perygl inni golli’r genhedlaeth hon, a’r nesaf, am byth. Dylem ddechrau herio’r dirywiad hwn, ac ystyried beth y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud yn hynny o beth.
I am sure that we all agree that the apathy displayed by many young people towards politics is worrying. We face the threat of most people not taking advantage of their right and responsibility to participate in a democratic election. When we consider that thousands of people queued for days, without anything to eat or any comforts, to vote for Nelson Mandela in South Africa, it is appalling that the youth of today do not appreciate that the continuation of democracy depends on them. Wales has a long history of being a driving force in British democracy, most notably in the Chartist movement. Without such gains we would not have had, among other things, the NHS, or free universal education. The list of democracy’s achievements is long and illustrious. If young people get into the habit of not voting, democracy is in serious trouble.
Yr wyf yn sicr ein bod oll yn cytuno bod y difaterwch a amlygir gan lawer o bobl ifanc ynghylch gwleidyddiaeth yn peri pryder. Yr ydym yn wynebu’r bygythiad o weld y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn peidio â manteisio ar eu hawl a’u cyfrifoldeb i gymryd rhan mewn etholiadau democrataidd. Pan ystyriwn fod miloedd o bobl wedi ciwio am ddyddiau, heb ddim i’w fwyta nac unrhyw gysuron, i bleidleisio dros Nelson Mandela yn Ne Affrica, mae’n warthus nad yw ieuenctid heddiw’n sylweddoli bod democratiaeth yn dibynnu arnynt hwy am ei pharhad. Mae gan Gymru hanes hir o fod yn ysgogwr yn nemocratiaeth Prydain, ym mudiad y Siartwyr yn fwyaf arbennig. Heb welliannau o’r fath ni fyddem wedi cael, ymysg pethau eraill, y GIG, neu addysg am ddim i bawb. Mae rhestr yr hyn a gyflawnwyd drwy ddemocratiaeth yn hir ac yn ddisglair. Os yw pobl ifanc yn mynd i’r arfer o beidio â phleidleisio, bydd democratiaeth mewn trafferth difrifol.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats take pride in the fact that we have a disproportionately large amount of support—
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n ymfalchïo yn y ffaith bod gennym gefnogaeth uwch na’r cyfartaledd—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65
Order. You must wind up; you have already had a minute and a quarter.
Trefn. Rhaid ichi gloi; cawsoch funud a chwarter eisoes.
We have a large amount of support among young people, whereas the average Conservative supporter is 67 years old. We want all people, of all ages and backgrounds, to engage in the political process.
Mae gennym lawer o gefnogaeth ymysg pobl ifanc tra bo’r cefnogwr Ceidwadol yn 67 mlwydd oed ar gyfartaledd. Yr ydym am i bawb, o bob oed a chefndir, gymryd rhan yn y broses wleidyddol.
We must address apathy among young people, which is fostered by media images of politics and politicians—many of which are not unfounded. We see sleaze, spin, the convergence of British politics, and the loss of hope for young people. For example, how can you spot the difference between the parties in the National Assembly? Is David Melding to the left of Lorraine, is Peter Black more Conservative and centralist than David Davies? The confusion is considerable. Plaid Cymru offers a distinctive policy that, given the proper medium, would encourage young people to vote. Increasingly, young people in Wales recognise that they have a choice, which can rid them of their apathy. It gives them hope.
Rhaid inni roi sylw i’r difaterwch ymysg pobl ifanc, sy’n cael ei hybu gan y delweddau yn y cyfryngau o wleidyddiaeth a gwleidyddion—a rhai ohonynt heb fod yn ddi-sail. Gwelwn lygredd, sbin, cydgyfeirio yng ngwleidyddiaeth Prydain, a cholli gobaith ymysg pobl ifanc. Er enghraifft, sut allwch chi sylwi ar y gwahaniaeth rhwng y pleidiau yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? A yw David Melding i’r chwith i Lorraine, a yw Peter Black yn fwy Ceidwadol a chanoliaethol na David Davies? Mae cryn ddryswch. Mae Plaid Cymru’n cynnig polisi neilltuol a fyddai, o gael y priod gyfrwng, yn cymell pobl ifanc i bleidleisio. Yn fwyfwy, mae pobl ifanc yng Nghymru’n sylweddoli bod ganddynt ddewis, a all eu gwared rhag eu difaterwch. Mae’n rhoi gobaith iddynt.
I thank Jonathan for raising this important issue. Sometimes, we presume that young people are not interested in politics, but in fact, many of them have strong views about globalisation, world poverty, fox hunting, the environment, and other issues that directly affect them. In some ways, this is an issue of definition.
Diolchaf i Jonathan am godi’r mater pwysig hwn. Weithiau, yr ydym yn rhagdybio nad yw pobl ifanc yn ymddiddori mewn gwleidyddiaeth ond, mewn gwirionedd, mae gan lawer ohonynt ddaliadau cryf am globaleiddio, tlodi byd, hela llwynogod, yr amgylchedd, a materion eraill sy’n effeithio arnynt yn uniongyrchol. Ar ryw ystyr, mae hyn yn fater o ddiffinio.
In my constituency, the young people of the Fernhill Youth Project are highly political. They care for their community; they want to play a part in its regeneration and, in testimony of this, they won a Wales youth award some months ago.
Yn fy etholaeth i, mae pobl ifanc Prosiect Ieuenctid Fernhill yn dra gwleidyddol. Maent yn gofalu am eu cymuned; maent am chwarae rhan yn ei hadfywiad ac, yn brawf o hynny, enillasant wobr i ieuenctid Cymru rai misoedd yn ôl.
Serious challenges remain—I do not dispute that—but we must build on what has already been done. We should acknowledge how much the Assembly has already achieved in bringing politics closer to young people. We have mentioned Llais Ifanc/Young Voice, but we must also remember how much the Assembly is making it easier for everybody—including young people—to access Assembly Members, via letters, e-mail or visits to the Chamber. We must build upon this improvement in open government.
Mae heriau anodd o hyd—nid wyf yn amau hynny—ond rhaid inni adeiladu ar sail yr hyn a wnaethpwyd eisoes. Dylem gydnabod cymaint y mae’r Cynulliad wedi’i gyflawni eisoes wrth ddod â gwleidyddiaeth yn agosach at bobl ifanc. Yr ydym wedi sôn am Llais Ifanc/Young Voice, ond rhaid inni hefyd gofio sut y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei gwneud yn haws i bawb—gan gynnwys pobl ifanc—gyrraedd Aelodau’r Cynulliad, drwy lythyrau, e-bost neu ymweliadau â’r Siambr. Rhaid inni adeiladu ar sail y gwelliant hwn mewn llywodraeth agored.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 67
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
I thank Jonathan for tabling this debate, and I am delighted that, three weeks late, we have had a chance to listen to you. No-one needs convincing of the importance of including young people in the political process. Our democratic future depends on capturing the interest of young people, not simply as voters, but as active participants in political life. Members’ contributions suggested different ways to capture interest in the democratic process, but the means are not as important as achieving that end.
Diolchaf i Jonathan am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, ac yr wyf yn hynod falch ein bod wedi cael cyfle, dair wythnos yn hwyr, i wrando arnoch. Nid oes angen argyhoeddi neb mor bwysig yw cynnwys pobl ifanc yn y broses wleidyddol. Mae dyfodol ein democratiaeth yn dibynnu ar ein gallu i ennyn diddordeb pobl ifanc, nid yn unig fel pleidleiswyr, ond fel cyfranogion gweithredol mewn bywyd gwleidyddol. Yr oedd cyfraniadau’r Aelodau’n awgrymu gwahanol ddulliau o ennyn diddordeb yn y broses ddemocrataidd, ond nid yw’r modd mor bwysig â chyrraedd y nod honno.
I reply on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government, and the contribution that we can make to this process. These issues are relevant to every Minister’s portfolio. The Government cannot intervene in the life of political parties, but we can invest in the groundwork that prepares young people for involvement in political life, by creating ways in which young people can engage with our political structure. We can try to ensure that young people gain the confidence to participate in public affairs and help them to develop a sense of citizenship and an understanding of what it means to make a difference. Unless we carry out that preparatory work, we will have failed to provide our young people with the basic building blocks to develop active participation in the political process.
Ymatebaf ar ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, a’r cyfraniad y gallwn ei wneud i’r broses hon. Mae’r materion hyn yn berthnasol i bortffolio pob Gweinidog. Ni all y Llywodraeth ymyrryd ym mywyd y pleidiau gwleidyddol, ond gallwn fuddsoddi yn y gwaith sy’n paratoi pobl ifanc i gymryd rhan mewn bywyd gwleidyddol, drwy greu modd i bobl ifanc gysylltu â’n strwythur gwleidyddol. Gallwn geisio sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn meithrin yr hyder sydd ei angen i gymryd rhan mewn materion cyhoeddus a’u helpu i ddatblygu ymdeimlad o ddinasyddiaeth a dealltwriaeth o’r hyn y mae gwneud gwahaniaeth yn ei olygu. Os na wnawn y gwaith paratoi hwnnw, byddwn wedi methu â rhoi’r defnyddiau crai i’n pobl ifanc i ddatblygu cyfranogiad gweithredol yn y broses wleidyddol.
Some Members may have walked into the Chamber when we were not using it, as I have done, and found young people in debate, thanks to such initiatives as the European Youth Forum. My Cabinet colleague, Sue Essex invited sixth-formers to debate local issues in the Chamber. Many of us have spoken with secondary school pupils, and visited young people in our constituencies. That is a matter for us as individual Members.
Efallai fod rhai Aelodau wedi cerdded i mewn i’r Siambr pan nad oeddem yn ei defnyddio, fel y gwneuthum i, ac wedi gweld pobl ifanc yn cynnal dadl, diolch i fentrau fel y Fforwm Ieuenctid Ewropeaidd. Gwahoddodd fy nghyd-Weinidog yn y Cabinet, Sue Essex, ddisgyblion dosbarth chwech i gynnal dadl ar faterion lleol yn y Siambr. Mae llawer ohonom wedi siarad â disgyblion ysgol uwchradd, ac wedi mynd i weld pobl ifanc yn ein hetholaethau. Mae hynny’n fater i ni fel Aelodau unigol.
Do you agree that one of the best examples of such an occasion was when young disabled people, some with learning difficulties, asked questions of Ministers as though they were Assembly Members? I congratulate the Cabinet for arranging that, and I sincerely hope—particularly for those who are more excluded from the democratic process than others—that we can continue to build on what we have achieved.
A ydych yn cytuno mai un o’r goreuon o blith y digwyddiadau o’r fath oedd hwnnw pan oedd pobl ifanc anabl, a rhai ohonynt ag anableddau dysgu, yn gofyn cwestiynau i Weinidogion fel pe byddent yn Aelodau Cynulliad? Llongyfarchaf y Cabinet ar drefnu hynny, ac yr wyf yn gwir obeithio—yn enwedig er mwyn y rhai sydd wedi’u hallgáu o’r broses wleidyddol yn fwy nag eraill—y gallwn barhau i adeiladu ar yr hyn a gyflawnasom.
That goes to the heart of the Assembly’s philosophy, not only the Cabinet’s. We want to ensure that past processes, which may have attracted more articulate young people, now attract all young people to political debate. Our approach in the documents ‘Children and Young People: A Framework for Partnership’ and ‘Extending Entitlement: Supporting Young People in Wales’ concerns finding mechanisms to encourage all our young people—whatever their background—to influence the development of Assembly policy. Children and young people should be treated as valued members of the community, whose voices are heard and whose needs are considered across the range of policy making.
Mae hynny’n mynd at wraidd athroniaeth y Cynulliad, nid y Cabinet yn unig. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod prosesau’r gorffennol, a allai fod wedi denu pobl ifanc fwy huawdl, bellach yn denu’r holl bobl ifanc i ddadleuon gwleidyddol. Mae ein dull o weithredu yn y dogfennau ‘Plant a Phobl Ifanc: Fframwaith ar gyfer Partneriaeth’ ac ‘Ymestyn Hawliau: Cynorthwyo Pobl Ifanc yng Nghymru’ yn ymwneud â darganfod mecanweithiau i annog ein holl bobl ifanc—beth bynnag fo’u cefndir—i ddylanwadu ar ddatblygiad polisi’r Cynulliad. Dylid trin plant a phobl ifanc fel aelodau gwerthfawr o’r gymuned, y clywir eu lleisiau ac yr ystyrir eu hanghenion ym mhob maes llunio polisi.
That ideal is firmly based on our belief in the importance of active citizenship, social inclusion and the involvement of our children and young people in activities in their communities and beyond.
Mae’r ddelfryd honno wedi’i seilio’n gadarn ar ein cred ym mhwysigrwydd dinasyddiaeth weithredol, cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a’r rhan a gymerir gan ein plant a’n pobl ifanc mewn gweithgareddau yn eu cymunedau a’r tu hwnt.
Do you agree that the Assembly must not be seen as merely a building in Cardiff bay, but that all politicians must engage actively with young people in their communities? It is almost a virtual Assembly, not just a building in Cardiff bay. What we do in our constituencies is equally important.
A ydych yn credu bod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad gael ei ystyried yn fwy na dim ond adeilad ym mae Caerdydd, a bod rhaid i’r holl wleidyddion ymwneud o ddifrif â phobl ifanc yn eu cymunedau? Mae’n Gynulliad rhithiol bron, nid adeilad ym mae Caerdydd yn unig. Mae’r hyn a wnawn yn ein hetholaethau yr un mor bwysig.
This is not just about what we as Members do. It is about putting the right structures in place to enable young people to participate better. Through the agendas that I described, ‘Children and Young People: A Framework for Partnership’ and ‘Extending Entitlement’, we are considering setting structures at national and local levels that will involve young people in the planning and review of their services, involving local authorities, health services and schools. Let us remember that young people were involved in the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. The establishment of Llais Ifanc/Young Voice as an effective all-Wales body that enables the young to play a full part in decision making has been mentioned. The body will comprise representatives from local youth forums, other people-led groups and voluntary sector projects. All Members will be as proud as I was when I discovered that that particular initiative was used as a key example of best practice in the European White Paper on youth. We want young people to become active players in local government and local health services planning by consulting them on their needs through their local fora and by involving them in the production of local community and framework plans. I agree with Jonathan that schools are key. We consulted on proposals in ‘The Learning Country’ to have a school council in every primary and secondary school in Wales. Whenever I visit schools as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning—which is three times a week at least, and six times this week—that have school councils, young people tell me how valuable it is as a means for them to contribute to the debate. They are particularly important in providing opportunities to put into practice the principles of active citizenship and in contributing to the curriculum at secondary level.
Mae hyn yn ymwneud â mwy na’r hyn a wnawn fel Aelodau. Mae’n golygu rhoi’r strwythurau iawn ar waith i alluogi pobl ifanc i gyfranogi’n well. Drwy’r agendâu a ddisgrifiais, ‘Plant a Phobl Ifanc: Fframwaith ar gyfer Partneriaeth’ ac ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’, yr ydym yn ystyried gosod strwythurau ar y lefel genedlaethol a lleol a fydd yn cynnwys pobl ifanc yn y gwaith o gynllunio ac adolygu eu gwasanaethau, gan gynnwys yr awdurdodau lleol, gwasanaethau iechyd ac ysgolion. Gadewch inni gofio bod pobl ifanc wedi cymryd rhan ym mhenodi Comisiynydd Plant Cymru. Soniwyd am sefydlu Llais Ifanc/Young Voice fel corff effeithiol i Gymru gyfan sy’n galluogi’r ifanc i chwarae rhan lawn mewn penderfyniadau. Bydd y corff hwnnw’n cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o fforymau ieuenctid lleol, grwpiau eraill o dan arweiniad y bobl a phrosiectau yn y sector gwirfoddol. Bydd yr holl Aelodau cyn falched ag yr oeddwn i pan ddarganfûm fod y fenter benodol honno wedi’i defnyddio’n enghraifft allweddol o’r arfer gorau yn y Papur Gwyn Ewropeaidd ar ieuenctid. Yr ydym am i bobl ifanc gymryd rhan weithredol mewn cynllunio mewn llywodraeth leol a gwasanaethau iechyd lleol drwy ymgynghori ar eu hanghenion drwy eu fforymau lleol a thrwy’r rhan a gymerant mewn cynhyrchu cynlluniau fframwaith a chymunedol lleol. Cytunaf â Jonathan fod yr ysgolion yn allweddol. Gwnaethom ymgynghori ar y cynigion yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ i gael cyngor ysgol ym mhob ysgol gynradd ac uwchradd yng Nghymru. Pryd bynnag yr ymwelaf ag ysgolion fel y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes—sef teirgwaith yr wythnos o leiaf, a chwe gwaith yr wythnos hon—sydd â chynghorau ysgol, mae’r bobl ifanc yn dweud wrthyf mor werthfawr ydyw fel modd iddynt gyfrannu i’r ddadl. Maent yn arbennig o bwysig o ran cynnig cyfleoedd i roi ar waith yr egwyddorion o ddinasyddiaeth weithredol a chyfrannu i’r cwricwlwm ar y lefel uwchradd.
Mae sefydlu’r fath gynghorau ymhob ysgol yn holl bwysig. Mae’n rhoi cyfle arbennig i’r disgyblion gyfrannu a bod yn rhan o wneud penderfyniadau. A gredwch y dylem ystyried sut yr ydym yn cyflawni’r cwricwlwm yn ein hysgolion? Nid sôn cymaint am y pynciau craidd gorfodol ydwyf, ond y profiadau y mae plant yn eu cael yn y dosbarth. Yno y mae’n cyfrif. Oni newidiem ein dull o gyflawni’r cwricwlwm, bydd llawer o bobl ifanc yn gadael yr ysgol gyda’r profiadau anghywir ac wedi’u dadrithio â gwleidyddiaeth.
Establishing such councils in every school is crucial. It gives pupils a unique opportunity to make a contribution and participate in decision making. Do you believe that we should examine the method of delivering the curriculum in our schools? I do not mean the compulsory core subjects, but the experiences that the children have in the classroom. That is where it counts. Unless we change our method of delivering the curriculum, many young people will leave school with the wrong experiences and will feel disaffected by politics.
We will be reviewing the curriculum for 14 to 19-year olds later this year. Yesterday, at a school in Gwynedd, I observed the alternative curriculum delivery and saw how important it is for young people in terms of challenging disaffection. That is happening throughout Wales. Citizenship is key, and is part of the personal and social educational framework that requires young people to learn about their rights and responsibilities in a democratic society under rule of law. That can encourage a political literacy in young people to help enable them to make effective decisions and judgments. In developing the Welsh baccalaureate, we are keeping in mind the importance of citizenship and political literacy. That programme will include activities where students can examine political systems and their importance. As I said when I announced the 19 pilot centres, young people will complete the first Welsh baccalaureate in 2005. They will have subject qualifications under their belts that will give them the best possible chance of entering work or further study, in Wales or elsewhere. They will be able to talk confidently of the voluntary work, work experience and enterprise activities they will have engaged in. Future employers will notice the transferable skills—the thinking skills that Jonathan referred to—that will help them perform better at work or study. They will know their local communities in some depth.
Byddwn yn adolygu’r cwricwlwm i bobl ifanc 14 i 19 mlwydd oed yn ddiweddarach eleni. Ddoe, mewn ysgol yng Ngwynedd, arsylwais ar gyflwyno’r cwricwlwm amgen a gwelais mor bwysig ydyw i bobl ifanc o ran herio ymddieithrio. Mae hynny’n digwydd ledled Cymru. Mae dinasyddiaeth yn allweddol, ac mae’n rhan o’r fframwaith addysgol personol a chymdeithasol, sy’n mynnu bod pobl ifanc yn dysgu am eu hawliau a’u cyfrifoldebau mewn cymdeithas ddemocrataidd o dan reolaeth y gyfraith. Fe all hynny hybu llythrennedd gwleidyddol ymysg pobl ifanc i’w helpu i wneud penderfyniadau a dyfarniadau effeithiol. Wrth ddatblygu’r fagloriaeth Gymreig, yr ydym yn cofio am bwysigrwydd dinasyddiaeth a llythrennedd gwleidyddol. Bydd y rhaglen honno’n cynnwys gweithgareddau lle y caiff myfyrwyr archwilio systemau gwleidyddol a’u pwysigrwydd. Fel y dywedais wrth gyhoeddi’r 19 canolfan beilot, bydd pobl ifanc yn cwblhau’r Fagloriaeth Gymreig gyntaf yn 2005. Byddant wedi ennill cymwysterau pwnc a fydd yn rhoi’r cyfle gorau posibl iddynt gael gwaith neu astudio ymhellach, yng Nghymru neu mewn man arall. Byddant yn gallu siarad yn hyderus am y gwaith gwirfoddol, y profiad gwaith a’r gweithgareddau menter y byddant wedi cymryd rhan ynddynt. Bydd cyflogwyr y dyfodol yn sylwi ar y sgiliau trosglwyddadwy—y sgiliau meddwl y cyfeiriodd Jonathan atynt—a fydd yn eu helpu i wneud yn well yn eu gwaith neu eu hastudiaethau. Byddant yn adnabod eu cymunedau lleol yn eithaf manwl.
They will be confident in their roots and identity. Who knows, their first holidays abroad as young adults could see them using their baccalaureate Spanish in Gran Canaria or their baccalaureate French in Tunisia.
Bydd ganddynt hyder yn eu gwreiddiau a’u hunaniaeth. Pwy a ŵyr, ar eu gwyliau cyntaf dramor fel oedolion ifanc, efallai y byddant yn arfer y Sbaeneg o’u bagloriaeth yn Gran Canaria neu’r Ffrangeg o’u bagloriaeth yn Nhiwnisia.
Do you agree with the Liberal Democrat policy of lowering the voting age to 16 years of age, as we entrust young people with taxation and so on, at that age?
A ydych yn cytuno â pholisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o ostwng yr oed pleidleisio i 16 mlwydd oed, gan ein bod yn ymddiried pobl ifanc â threthiant ac yn y blaen, yn yr oed hwnnw?
I will return to the Welsh Assembly Government’s response to the issues raised in this debate.
Dychwelaf at ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i’r materion a godwyd yn y ddadl hon.
The theme of participation and citizenship runs through our approach to the provision of support services for young people—the approach advocated through ‘Extending Entitlement’—focusing on giving young people a chance to succeed, develop self-confidence and be independent. A key message that we can convey as politicians in a world where people increasingly consider which qualifications are appropriate for jobs is that we have jobs that do not require qualifications but which require us to be driven by a passion to improve society. I often see that passion when I meet young people, as Jonathan has, and as has Jane Hutt in her role as the Minister for young people.
Mae thema cyfranogiad a dinasyddiaeth yn rhedeg drwy ein dull o ddarparu gwasanaethau cymorth i bobl ifanc—y dull sy’n cael ei argymell yn ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’—sy’n canolbwyntio ar roi cyfle i bobl ifanc lwyddo, meithrin hunanhyder a bod yn annibynnol. Un neges hollbwysig y gallwn ei chyfleu fel gwleidyddion mewn byd lle y mae pobl yn ystyried fwyfwy pa gymwysterau sy’n briodol i swyddi yw bod gennym swyddi nad ydynt yn gofyn cymwysterau ond sy’n gofyn inni gael ein hysgogi gan yr awch am wella cymdeithas. Gwelaf yr awch hwnnw’n aml pan wyf yn cwrdd â phobl ifanc, fel y gwnaeth Jonathan, ac fel y gwnaeth Jane Hutt yn ei rôl fel y Gweinidog dros bobl ifanc.
Last summer we arranged events at which over 400 young people from diverse backgrounds across Wales had an opportunity to air their opinions about our approach to youth policy as set out in ‘Extending Entitlement’. I spent several days with these young people and I was immensely impressed with their huge amount of enthusiasm, their willingness to tell us their opinions and the common sense and realism that they demonstrated. We must demonstrate that willingness to listen and take their views on board in terms of taking the agenda forward. Young people are not asking for the impossible. They want the adults who come into contact with them to listen to them and show them some respect. They tell us that they want good quality information on matters such as sexual health, substance misuse, careers, housing and benefits, and in a form that they can understand so that they can make informed choices. We have already put this in hand with Assembly funding to Canllaw Online information services, and a range of other initiatives supported by the Cabinet.
Yr haf diwethaf gwnaethom drefnu digwyddiadau lle yr oedd cyfle i dros 400 o bobl ifanc o wahanol gefndiroedd ledled Cymru wyntyllu eu barn am ein hagwedd at bolisi ieuenctid fel y’i nodwyd yn ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’. Treuliais sawl diwrnod gyda’r bobl ifanc hyn a gwnaethpwyd argraff fawr arnaf gan eu brwdfrydedd aruthrol, eu parodrwydd i ddweud eu barn wrthym a’r synnwyr cyffredin a’r ymagwedd realistig a amlygasant. Rhaid i ni ddangos yr un parodrwydd i wrando a chymryd eu barn i ystyriaeth wrth fwrw ymlaen â’r agenda. Nid yw pobl ifanc yn gofyn yr amhosibl. Maent am i’r oedolion a ddaw i gysylltiad â hwy wrando arnynt a dangos rhywfaint o barch tuag atynt. Maent yn dweud wrthym fod arnynt angen gwybodaeth o ansawdd da am faterion fel iechyd rhywiol, camddefnyddio sylweddau, gyrfaoedd, tai a budd-daliadau, a hynny ar ffurf y gallant ei deall fel y gallant wneud dewisiadau gwybodus. Yr ydym eisoes wedi rhoi hynny ar waith drwy roi arian y Cynulliad at wasanaethau gwybodaeth Canllaw Ar-lein, ac amryw o fentrau eraill a gefnogir gan y Cabinet.
Young people also tell us that they need skilled support and sometimes expert counselling of different kinds and varying degrees throughout their adolescent years to enable them to grow into confident and effective citizens. This support, if it has been available—as it has been in some forward-thinking areas—has often been piecemeal, ad-hoc and not available across the whole of Wales. We are now taking steps to rectify the situation through the network of young people’s partnerships, which will be in place through statute from September 2002. Wales is the only part of the UK where youth work will be statutory because of our commitment to young people and informal and formal learning opportunities.
Dywed pobl ifanc wrthym hefyd fod arnynt angen cymorth medrus ac weithiau cynghori arbenigol o wahanol fathau ac i wahanol raddau drwy gydol eu glaslencyndod i’w galluogi i dyfu’n ddinasyddion hyderus ac effeithiol. Bu’r cymorth hwn, os oedd ar gael—ac fe fu mewn rhai ardaloedd blaengar—yn dameidiog ac yn unswydd yn aml a heb fod ar gael ledled Cymru. Yr ydym yn cymryd camau bellach i gywiro’r sefyllfa drwy’r rhwydwaith o bartneriaethau pobl ifanc, a fydd ar waith drwy statud o fis Medi 2002 ymlaen. Cymru yw’r unig ran o’r DU lle y bydd gwaith ieuenctid yn statudol oherwydd ein hymrwymiad i bobl ifanc a chyfleoedd dysgu anffurfiol a ffurfiol.
We are directing local authorities to set up young people’s partnerships to put in place a more comprehensive support structure. Those partnerships will be expected to work with young people, and not for young people, as services have tended to do in the past, to audit existing provision and need in relation to service provision and support services, to identify key priorities and to develop planning to meet young people’s needs on a year by year basis.
Yr ydym yn cyfarwyddo’r awdurdodau lleol i sefydlu partneriaethau pobl ifanc er mwyn rhoi strwythur cymorth mwy cynhwysfawr ar waith. Disgwylir i’r partneriaethau hynny weithio gyda phobl ifanc, ac nid dros bobl ifanc, fel y bu tuedd i’r gwasanaethau hynny wneud yn y gorffennol, i archwilio’r ddarpariaeth a’r angen presennol mewn cysylltiad â darparu gwasanaethau a gwasanaethau cymorth, i ddynodi blaenoriaethau allweddol ac i ddatblygu cynllunio a fydd yn diwallu anghenion pobl ifanc o’r naill flwyddyn i’r llall.
We have asked local authorities working with young people on this agenda to dream the dream and consider developing proposals through to 2008. They can be ambitious about how they will work with young people in their areas. If these partnerships work and the support mechanisms are established, and if we engage young people through Llais Ifanc—as Jonathan said, evidence suggests that youth fora are the best way of engaging with young people—and make it meaningful, listen to young people as politicians and demonstrate in our policies that we are delivering for them, then Wales could show the way forward, not only for other parts of the UK, but for the world. That is why I was so pleased to see that the European White Paper on youth recognised the immense contribution that has already been made in developing policies in Wales for young people. Therefore, there are major challenges for the future.
Yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r awdurdodau lleol sy’n gweithio gyda phobl ifanc ar yr agenda hon freuddwydio breuddwydion ac ystyried datblygu cynigion hyd at 2008. Cânt fod yn uchelgeisiol ynghylch y modd y byddant yn gweithio gyda phobl ifanc yn eu hardaloedd. Os bydd y partneriaethau hyn yn llwyddo ac os sefydlir y mecanweithiau cymorth, ac os cysylltwn â phobl ifanc drwy Llais Ifanc—fel y dywedodd Jonathan, mae’r dystiolaeth yn awgrymu mai fforymau ieuenctid yw’r dull gorau o gysylltu â phobl ifanc—a’i wneud yn ystyrlon, ac os gwrandawn ar bobl ifanc fel gwleidyddion a dangos drwy ein polisïau ein bod yn cyflawni pethau drostynt, yna gallai Cymru ddangos y ffordd ymlaen, nid yn unig i rannau eraill y DU, ond i’r byd. Dyna pam yr oeddwn mor falch o weld bod y Papur Gwyn Ewropeaidd ar ieuenctid yn cynabod y cyfraniad aruthrol a wnaethpwyd eisoes wrth ddatblygu polisïau yng Nghymru i bobl ifanc. Felly, mae heriau mawr yn y dyfodol.
Jonathan, I am pleased that you brought this debate forward today. Involving young people in the political process is not a party political issue, it is about engaging them in democracy, and engaging with them so that they do not have to fight or die for the vote as many of their forbears and ours did. However, without the vote and democracy we will not have the fair society in which the young people of Wales want to grow up.
Jonathan, yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi cyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw. Nid mater pleidiol wleidyddol yw cynnwys pobl ifanc yn y broses wleidyddol, ond un sy’n ymwneud â’u cysylltu â democratiaeth, a hynny fel nad oes rhaid iddynt ymladd a marw dros gael pleidlais fel y gwnaeth llawer o’u cyndadau hwy a ninnau. Fodd bynnag, heb y bleidlais a heb ddemocratiaeth ni chawn y cymdeithas deg lle y mae pobl ifanc Cymru am dyfu.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Cymuned yr Armeniaid yng Nghymru a’r Hil-laddiad yn Nhwrci
The Armenian Community in Wales and Genocide in Turkey
Yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf mynychais nifer o gyfarfodydd a drefnwyd gan gymdeithas brawdgarwch Cymru ac Armenia. Un rheswm dros ei ffurfio oedd i berswadio’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i wneud datganiad i’r perwyl ei fod yn cydnabod yn swyddogol wirionedd hil-laddiad yr Armeniaid yn Nhwrci yn 1915.
in Welsh During the last two years I have attended a number of meetings organised by Wales-Armenia Solidarity. One reason for forming that organisation was to persuade the National Assembly to make a statement to the effect that it officially recognises the authenticity of the Armenian genocide in Turkey in 1915.
Cynhaliwyd gwasanaeth coffáu arbennig yn y Deml Heddwch yng Nghaerdydd ar 24 Ebrill 2001—pen-blwydd cychwyn yr hil-laddiad—y bu Rhodri Morgan a Jenny Randerson yn bresennol ynddo. Flwyddyn cyn hynny, cynhaliwyd arddangosfa yno o luniau arswydus Armin Wegner, sy’n rhan allweddol o’r dystiolaeth am yr hil-laddiad. Bu arddangosfa yn y Cynulliad, hefyd. Traddodwyd darlithoedd pwysig yn y Deml Heddwch ar achlysuron eraill a bu gwasanaeth a chyflwyniad yn y Cynulliad ar 25 Ebrill 2002.
in Welsh A special service of remembrance was held in Cardiff’s Temple of Peace on 24 April 2001—the anniversary of the start of the genocide—at which Rhodri Morgan and Jenny Randerson were present. A year earlier, an exhibition was held there of the shocking pictures taken by Armin Wegner, which form a key part of the evidence for the genocide. There was also an exhibition in the Assembly. Important speeches have been given in the Temple of Peace on other occasions and on 25 April 2002 a service and presentation was held at the Assembly.
Nid digwyddiadau 1915 oedd yr enghraifft gyntaf o’r Armeniaid yn cael eu herlid yn ffiaidd yn Nhwrci. Rhwng 1894 ac 1896, er enghraifft, lladdwyd dros 100,000 o Armeniaid gan filwyr arbennig ar orchymyn y swltan. Serch hynny, yr oedd digwyddiadau 1915 a’r blynyddoedd wedi hynny yn wahanol: hil-laddiad yng ngwir ystyr y gair arswydus hwnnw. Mae’r gair hwnnw’n cael ei orddefnyddio, ond nid yn yr achos hwn lle y cafwyd proses systematig a threfnedig o ddileu poblogaeth gyfan.
in Welsh The events of 1915 were not the first example of the Armenians being brutally persecuted in Turkey. Between 1894 and 1896, for example, over 100,000 Armenians were killed by special forces on the sultan’s orders. However, the events of 1915 and the following years were different: it was genocide in the true sense of that terrifying word. The word is overused, but not in this case where there was a systematic and organised process to exterminate an entire population.
Yn 1915 yr oedd 2 filiwn o Armeniaid yn byw yn Nhwrci: 10 y cant o boblogaeth y wlad. Yn ystod 1915 lladdwyd 1.5 miliwn ohonynt, a dadgludwyd mwyafrif y gweddill. Ym Mai 1918, wrth i fyddin Twrci ymosod tua’r dwyrain lladdwyd 100,000 yn ychwaneg. Yr oedd yr ‘anhawster Armenaidd’, i ddefnyddio geiriau chwerw-eironig David Lloyd George, wedi cael ei ‘symleiddio’. Pan ddaeth Kemal Ataturk i rym yn 1920, aethpwyd ati yr un mor systematig i ddileu pob ôl o dreftadaeth yr Armeniaid, gan gynnwys campweithiau pensaernïol, llyfrgelloedd, archifau, a dinasoedd a phentrefi cyfan—gan ddileu 3,000 o flynyddoedd o hanes.
in Welsh In 1915 there were 2 million Armenians living in Turkey: 10 per cent of the country’s population. During 1915, 1.5 million of them were killed, and the majority of the rest was taken away. In May 1918, as the Turkish army made an eastward incursion, a further 100,000 were killed. The ‘Armenian difficulty’, in David Lloyd George’s bitterly ironic words, had been ‘simplified’. When Kemal Ataturk came to power in 1920, the work, of destroying every trace of the Armenians’ heritage, including architectural masterpieces, libraries, archives, and entire cities and villages continued just as systematically—destroying 3,000 years of history.
Af yn ôl i 1915 ac at wahanol gamau’r dinistr. Gwnaed y cyfan ar orchymyn y triwyr a lywodraethai Dwrci ar y pryd, y ‘Tyrciaid ifanc’ fel y’u gelwid. Cafwyd cynhadledd arbennig, cynulliad cyfrinachol o ryw 75 o brif arweinyddion Twrci yn Istanbwl, i gwblhau cynllun gweithredu i ddatrys y cwestiwn Armenaidd. Y cam cyntaf oedd portreadu’r Armeniaid fel gelynion mewnol ac annog eu herlid. Y cam nesaf oedd diarfogi 40,000 o filwyr Armeniadd ym myddin Twrci, a’u lladd. Wedyn arestiwyd rhyw 300 o ddeallusion ac arweinyddion allweddol, a’u dienyddio. Tro’r gwragedd, y plant a’r oedrannus oedd nesaf; cawsant eu gorfodi o’u cartrefi gan esgus bod yn rhaid gwneud hynny er eu diogelwch. Cafodd llawer eu lladd a bu eraill farw o newyn, syched ac effeithiau noethni. Mae’r disgrifiadau o’r dioddefaint yn ddirdynnol. Gallwch eu gweld ar wefan ymgyrch cydnabod hil-laddiad yr Armeniaid.
in Welsh I will go back to 1915 and the different stages of the destruction. It was all carried out at the order of the triumvirate that governed Turkey at the time, the ‘young Turks’ as they were known. A special conference was held, a secret assembly of some 75 of the major Turkish leaders in Istanbul, to complete the action plan that would solve the Armenian problem. The first step was to portray the Armenians as the enemy within and encourage their persecution. The next step was to disarm 40,000 Armenian soldiers serving in the Turkish army and execute them. Then about 300 key intellectuals and leaders were arrested and executed. Next it was the turn of women, children and the elderly; they were marched from their homes, under the pretext that that had to be done for their own safety. Many of them were killed and others died of starvation, dehydration and the affects of exposure. The descriptions of the suffering are heart-rending. You can see them on the website of the campaign for recognition of the Armenian genocide.
Beth yw’r dystiolaeth fod hyn wedi digwydd? Cafwyd tystiolaeth gan Almaenwyr a oedd yn Nhwrci ar y pryd, gan gynnwys Armin Wegner yn arbennig, a adawodd archif anferth o ffotograffau. Yr oedd llygad-dystion o blith diplomyddion a chenhadon Americanaidd. Cyhoeddwyd erthyglau yn y wasg orllewinol a chyhoeddodd Llywodraethau Prydain, Ffrainc a Rwsia rybudd i Dwrci y byddai aelodau ei Llywodraeth yn cael eu dal yn gyfrifol am yr hyn a oedd yn digwydd.
in Welsh What is the evidence that all this happened? There was evidence from Germans who were in Turkey at that time, including Armin Wegner in particular, who left a massive archive of photographs. There were eyewitnesses among American diplomats and missionaries. Articles were published in the western press, and the Governments of Britain, France and Russia issued a warning to Turkey that members of its Government would be held accountable for the events.
Yn Chwefror 1916, comisiynwyd yr hanesydd Arnold Toynbee ac eraill gan Lywodraeth Prydain i gasglu’r dystiolaeth a’i chyhoeddi mewn llyfr glas seneddol. Gwyddom yng Nghymru am lyfrau gleision seneddol, ond dyma lyfr glas seneddol pwysig eithriadol. Nid oes dim amheuaeth ynglŷn â’r ffeithiau: bu hil-laddiad.
in Welsh In February 1916, the historian Arnold Toynbee and others were commissioned by the British government to collect the evidence and publish it in a parliamentary blue book. We in Wales know all about parliamentary blue books, but this was an exceptionally important blue book. There is no doubt about the facts: genocide had been perpetuated.
Soniodd Lloyd George yn 1939 am holocostau 1915. Mae’r gair ‘holocost’ yn arwyddocaol, yn enwedig o’i ddefnyddio yn 1939. Byddwch wedi sylwi ar y tebygrwydd oerllyd rhwng y digwyddiadau a’r meddylfryd oedd y tu ôl iddynt, a’r hyn a wnaethpwyd i’r Iddewon gan y Natsiaid chwarter canrif yn ddiweddarach. Yn ôl Michael Joseph, sydd wedi astudio’r hanes, nid cyd-ddigwyddiad mo hynny. Yn hytrach, daethpwyd â gwersi hil-laddiad yr Armeniaid yn ôl i’r Almaen gan filwyr a ymunodd â’r Natsiaid ar ôl dychwelyd o Dwrci, ac fe’u cymhwyswyd i brosiect Adolf Hitler. Wrth annerch ei gadfridogion yn Awst 1939, ac yntau’n cynllunio lladdfa didostur ar y Pwyliaid, dywedodd Hitler:
in Welsh In 1939, Lloyd George talked of the 1915 holocausts. The word ‘holocaust’ is significant, particularly when used in 1939. You will have noticed the chilling similarity between these events and the philosophy behind them, and what the Nazis did to the Jews a quarter of a century later. According to Michael Joseph, who has studied the history, this was no coincidence. Rather, the lessons of the Armenian genocide were brought back to Germany by soldiers who joined the Nazis on returning from Turkey, and were applied to Adolf Hitler’s project. In an address to his generals in August 1939, while planning the merciless slaughter of the Poles, Hitler said:
‘Pwy, wedi’r cwbl, sy’n sôn heddiw am ddilead yr Armeniaid?’
in Welsh ‘Who, after all, talks nowadays of the annihilation of the Armenians?’
Parhaodd drwy ddweud mai eu bwriad oedd cyflwyno polisi o ailanheddu. Dywedodd wrthynt i feddwl am y dadgludiadau Beiblaidd a chyflafanau’r Oesoedd Canol, ac i gofio difodiant yr Armeniaid.
in Welsh He went on to say that it was their intention to introduce a policy of repatriation. He told them to think of the Biblical diaspora and the massacres of the Middle Ages, and to remember the extermination of the Armenians.
Ei bwynt oedd ei bod yn bosibl cyflawni hil-laddiad a bod yn rhydd o unrhyw gosb ac y câi’r digwyddiad ei anghofio. Yr oedd yn sôn am y Pwyliaid ar y pryd, ond mae’n amlwg ei fod yn meddwl am yr Iddewon hefyd.
in Welsh His point was that it was possible to commit genocide without facing punishment and that the event would be forgotten. He was referring to the Poles at the time, but it is obvious that he was also thinking about the Jews.
A oes angen gofyn, felly, pam ei bod yn bwysig cydnabod hil-laddiad yr Armeniaid? Beth yw ein dedfryd ni ar unrhyw un sy’n gwadu ymdrech Hitler i ddileu’r Iddewon o wyneb y ddaear? Mae gadael trosedd mor enbyd yn erbyn y ddynoliaeth heb ei chydnabod, yn drosedd ynddi ei hun.
in Welsh Do we need to ask, therefore, why it is important to recognise the Armenian genocide? How do we judge those who seek to deny the authenticity of Hitler’s efforts to exterminate the Jews? To leave such a terrible crime against humanity unrecognised is a crime in itself.
Pwy sydd yn cydnabod yr hil-laddiad diamheuol hwn? Dechreuwn yn agos i gartref. Drwy gydol y rhyfel byd cyntaf, bu i Aneurin Williams, Aelod Seneddol o Gymro nad wyf yn gwybod dim o’i hanes, dynnu sylw’r Swyddfa Dramor at y perygl, ac yna at y realiti, o gyflafan yn Nhwrci. Mae’n bosibl iddo gymryd rôl ddylanwadol yn yr ymchwiliad a drefnwyd gan Lywodraeth Prydain wedi hynny. Drwy ddefnyddio’r geiriau a ddyfynnias eisoes, bu i Lloyd George gydnabod yr hil-laddiad yn ddiamwys. Yn agosach byth i gartref, yn y cyfarfod coffa yn y Deml Heddwch, dywedodd y Gweinidog, Jenny Randerson:
in Welsh Who recognises this indisputable genocide? We will start close to home. Throughout the first world war, Aneurin Williams, a Welsh Member of Parliament about whom I know nothing, drew the Foreign Office’s attention to the threat, and then the reality, of a massacre in Turkey. He may also have been influential in the subsequent inquiry set up by the British Government. Lloyd George’s use of the words I quoted earlier were an unambiguous recognition of the genocide. Even closer to home, during the memorial service at the Temple of Peace, the Assembly Minister, Jenny Randerson, said that:
‘Yn sicr, mae bai ar Lywodraeth Twrci am wadu’r hil-laddiad. Ac…fel un a fu’n hanesydd, yr wyf yn gwybod sut i farnu tystiolaeth a thafoli dadleuon, a barnu lle mae’r gwir…Mae’r digwyddiadau hyn yn gwbl nodweddiadol o hil-laddiad’.
in Welsh ‘Turkey can certainly be blamed for its modern denial. And…as someone who in past life was a historian, I know how to judge evidence and weigh up the pros and cons, and to judge where the truth lies…[These] events bear all the hallmarks of genocide’.
Yr oedd Rhodri Morgan yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw hefyd. Derbyniodd gopi o’r llyfr glas seneddol a gosododd dorch ar y gofeb. Yn dilyn y cyfarfod, dywedodd llefarydd ar ran Rhodri Morgan nad oedd presenoldeb dau o Weinidogion y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o anghenraid yn golygu bod y weinyddiaeth yn cydnabod yr hil-laddiad, ond nad oedd hynny yn eu rhwystro, fel gwleidyddion, rhag ei gydnabod. Dyna ichi gydnabyddiaeth, er y byddwn yn croesawu geiriad mwy diamwys na hynny.
in Welsh Rhodri Morgan also attended that service. He received a copy of the parliamentary blue book and placed a wreath on the memorial. Following the service, Rhodri Morgan’s spokesperson said that the presence of two Assembly Ministers did not necessarily mean that the administration recognises the genocide, but that does not prevent them, as politicians, from recognising the events. That is recognition enough, although I would have welcomed a less ambiguous wording.
Mae’r ymgyrch i gael mwy o bobl i ddatgan cydnabyddiaeth yn mynd rhagddi. Mae dros 100 o seneddau, cynulliadau rhanbarthol a chynghorau lleol wedi gwneud hynny eisoes. Mae gobaith y bydd Senedd y Swistir yn gwneud hynny hefyd cyn bo hir. Ar 28 Chwefror 2002, bu i Senedd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, drwy fwyafrif o 391 yn erbyn 96, ddatgan bod yn rhaid i Dwrci gydnabod yr hil-laddiad Armenaidd cyn y gall ymuno â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Amen i hynny. Hoffwn ychwanegu amodau eraill at hynny, yn enwedig yr angen i gydnabod hawliau diwylliannol a gwleidyddol y Cwrdiaid.
in Welsh The campaign to encourage more people to recognise the genocide is ongoing. Over 100 parliaments, regional assemblies, and local councils have already done so. It is hoped that the Swiss Parliament will also do so soon. On 28 February 2002, the European Union Parliament, by a majority of 391 to 96, stated that Turkey must recognise the Armenian genocide before it could join the European Union. Amen to that. I would apply other conditions, particularly the need to recognise the cultural and political rights of the Kurds.
Pwy sy’n gwrthod cydnabod yr hil-laddiad? Yn gyntaf, wrth gwrs, y mae Llywodraeth Twrci, sydd yn rhedeg ymgyrch systematig, drwyadl i wadu’r hil-laddiad yn llwyr. Nododd Jenny Randerson i gynrychiolwyr o Lywodraeth Twrci bwyso arni i gau ei cheg ar ôl iddi fynegi barn ar y pwnc. Beth arall sydd i’w ddisgwyl gan wlad sy’n gormesu ei lleiafrif Cwrdaidd yn greulon o awdurdodus, yn wir, yn gwadu ei fodolaeth—gwlad a chanddi record mor ddifrifol ar iawnderau dynol?
in Welsh Who is unwilling to recognise the genocide? First, of course, is the Turkish Government, which is conducting a systematic and thorough campaign to deny the genocide outright. Jenny Randerson said that representatives of the Turkish Government brought pressure to bear on her to be silent after she spoke out on this issue. What else would you expect from a country that so cruelly oppresses its Kurdish minority, indeed, denies its very existence—a country with such a terrible record on human rights?
Treuliais ddiwrnod mewn llys barn yn Ankara, adeg prawf Aelod Seneddol Cwrdaidd ar gyhuddiadau a oedd yn cynnwys defnyddio’r iaith Gwrdeg a chyfeirio at broblem y Cwrdiaid. Dyna oedd ei drosedd ac yr oedd o flaen ei well. Yr oedd llun Kemal Atatuk yn hongian ar y wal uwchben y fainc ac yr oedd ei ysbryd yn hydreiddio’r lle.
in Welsh I spent a day in a court of law in Ankara, during the trial of a Kurdish Member of Parliament, who was facing charges relating to his use of the Kurdish language and referring to the Kurdish problem. That was his crime and he was on trial. A picture of Kemal Atatuk was hanging on the wall above the bench, and his spirit permeated the place.
Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sydd yn ofnadwy yw gafael rhyfeddol Llywodraeth Twrci ar wledydd y Gorllewin ac ar Brydain, yr Unol Daleithiau a’r Almaen yn enwedig. Mae’r gwledydd hynny yn gwrthod cydnabod mai hil-laddiad oedd yr hyn a wnaethpwyd i’r Armeniaid. Maent yn cydnabod bod ysgelerderau wedi digwydd ond maent yn gwrthod defnyddio’r gair cywir na’r enw priodol amdanynt—yn yr yn modd ag y mae Llywodraeth Prydain yn gwrthod cydnabod mai trosedd yn erbyn y ddynoliaeth oedd y farchnad gaethwasiaeth. Rhag eu cywilydd—dyna safonau dwbl. Beth a ddywedai’r Llywodraeth wrth y rhai sydd yn gwrthod cydnabod yr holocaust Iddewig am yr hyn ydoedd?
in Welsh However, what is even worse is the remarkable hold that the Turkish Government has over Western countries, particularly Britain, the United States and Germany. These countries refuse to acknowledge that what was suffered by the Armenians was genocide. They acknowledge that these atrocities took place, but they refuse to use the correct word or the proper name for them—in the same way as the British Government refuses to acknowledge that slavery was a crime against humanity. They should be ashamed of themselves—that is what I call double standards. What would the Government say to those who refused to recognise the Jewish holocaust for what it was?
Beth allwn ni ei wneud? Yn anffodus, ni allwn basio penderfyniad o gydnabyddiaeth gyda’r bwriad o roi pwysau ar Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol i gydnabod yr hil-laddiad. Hynny fyddai’n ddelfrydol. Fodd bynnag, cyflwynwyd datganiad o farn Rhif 2000-0029 ym mis Mawrth 2000. Mae’r datganiad yn cydnabod y gwirionedd am yr hil-laddiad. Mae’n galw ar Dwrci i derfynu’r gwarchae economaidd ar Weriniaeth Armenia, sy’n fater arall sy’n codi ei ben ar hyn o bryd. Arferai Gweriniaeth Armenia, sydd wedi’i lleoli i’r dwyrain o Dwrci, fod yn rhan o’r Undeb Sofietaidd ac mae o dan warchae gan Dwrci. Mae’r datganiad hefyd yn galw ar Lywodraeth Prydain i wrthwynebu mynediad Twrci i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd tan iddi gydnabod yr hil-laddiad ac yn dod â’r gwarchae ar Weriniaeth Armenia i ben.
in Welsh What can we do? Unfortunately, we cannot pass a resolution of acknowledgement with the aim of putting pressure on the UK Government to acknowledge the genocide. That would be ideal. However, a statement of opinion No. 2000-0029 was tabled in March 2000. The statement acknowledges the true nature of the genocide. It asks Turkey to end its economic blockade on the Republic of Armenia. That is another issue. The Republic of Armenia, which is situated to the east of Turkey, used to be part of the former Soviet Union, and it is being blockaded by Turkey. The statement also calls for the British Government to oppose Turkey’s entry into the European Union until it acknowledges the genocide and ends the blockade on the Republic of Armenia.
Ar hyn o bryd, dim ond 15 o Aelodau o dair plaid yn unig sydd wedi llofnodi’r datganiad hwn. Pe bai mwyafrif clir o Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn llofnodi, byddai hynny gystal â phenderfyniad mwyafrifol yn dilyn dadl. Byddai’n well byth pe bai’n fwyafrif llethol.
in Welsh At the moment, only 15 Members from only three parties have signed the statement. If a majority of Assembly Members signed, that would be as good as a majority resolution following a debate. It would be even better if it were an overwhelming majority.
Dyna fy apel i heddiw nid yn unig i’r Aelodau sy’n bresennol, ond i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mewn achos mor eithriadol, efallai fod modd eithrio o’r rheol nad yw arweinyddion pleidiau ac aelodau’r Cabinet, yn gallu llofnodi datganiadau o farn.
in Welsh That is my appeal today, not only to Members present in the Chamber, but to all Assembly Members. In such an extraordinary case, it may be possible to make an exception to the rule that party leaders and Cabinet Members are not allowed to sign such statements.
Dyfynnaf Jenny Randerson eto:
yn Saesneg I quote Jenny Randerson again:
‘Rhaid inni weithio gyda’n gilydd yn y Cynulliad ac yn y gymdeithas i sicrhau bod y gyflafan, yr hil-laddiad hwn, yn cael ei gydnabod yn llawn [gan y Llywodraeth Brydeinig] oherwydd cydnabod a choffau yw’r ddau gam hanfodol i sicrhau na fydd yn ddigwyddbyth eto.’
in Welsh ‘We must work together within the Assembly and throughout society to ensure that this massacre, this genocide, is fully recognised [by the British Government], because recognition and commemoration are the vital steps to ensure that it never happens again’.
Byddai cydnabod yr hil-laddiad hefyd yn allweddol i sicrhau cymod yn y rhan arbennig honno o’r byd, sydd ar y ffin rhwng Ewrop ac Asia. Peth bach yw llofnodi datganiad o farn. Fodd bynnag, nid peth bach fyddai i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddatgan ei farn ynglŷn â hil-laddiad Armeniaid Twrci. Byddai’n hwb i’r ymgyrch yng Nghymru, ym Mhrydain a thu hwnt. Rhaid cael cydnabyddiaeth gyffredinol ynglŷn â gwirionedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Armenia er mwyn dechrau’r gwaith o gywiro’r camwri arswydus a wnaethpwyd. Apeliaf am gefnogaeth pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad.
in Welsh An acknowledgement of genocide would also be a key element in securing peace in that region, which borders Europe and Asia. Signing a statement of opinion is a small gesture. However, it would not be a small gesture for the National Assembly for Wales to make a declaration. It would boost the campaign in Wales and beyond. We must have general acknowledgement of the truth of what happened in Armenia in order to begin to right these appalling wrongs. I appeal for the support of all Assembly Members.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 78
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
There is no doubt that the first world war had tragic consequences, not just for the people of Western Europe but for the peoples of the former Ottoman Empire and the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. In 1918, at the conclusion of that war, the victorious powers—Britain, France, USA and Italy—met to discuss and sign the Treaty of Versailles. At the time, it was said that the first world war was a war to defend small nations. In 1918, Woodrow Wilson, the US President, attempted to recognise and protect the rights of small nations. They proved to be fine words at the time. The aftermath of the events of 1918 was quite different; those events led directly to the rise of Nazism and the second world war.
Nid oes amheuaeth na fu canlyniadau trychinebus i’r rhyfel byd cyntaf, nid yn unig i bobl Gorllewin Ewrop ond i bobloedd y gyn Ymerodraeth Otomanaidd a chyn Ymerodraeth Awstria-Hwngari. Yn 1918, ar derfyn y rhyfel hwnnw, fe gyfarfu’r pwerau buddugol—Prydain, Ffrainc, UDA a’r Eidal—i drafod ac arwyddo Cytundeb Versailles. Ar y pryd, dywedwyd mai rhyfel i amddiffyn cenhedloedd bach oedd y rhyfel byd cyntaf. Yn 1918, ceisiodd Woodrow Wilson, Arlywydd yr UD, gydnabod a diogelu hawliau’r cenhedloedd bach. Profasant yn eiriau teg ar y pryd. Bu adladd digwyddiadau 1918 yn gwbl wahanol: arweiniodd y digwyddiadau hynny’n uniongyrchol at ymddyrchafiad Natsïaeth a’r ail ryfel byd.
Many of the victorious powers—including Britain—abdicated their responsibility of protecting emerging small nations. Britain and France, in particular, were guilty of taking over former German territories with no intention of allowing them self-determination. We know what happened in what was then called Arabia and in Palestine. The right to self-determination, as far as Britain was concerned at that time, did not extend to Ireland. It took four years for that recognition to be granted. Armenia was caught up in all of this. It was supposedly offered the protection of the victorious powers, but that protection was subsequently withdrawn. Recognition of an independent Armenia was never forthcoming.
Ymwrthododd llawer o’r pwerau buddugol—gan gynnwys Prydain—â’u cyfrifoldeb dros ddiogelu’r cenhedloedd bach a oedd yn codi. Bu Prydain a Ffrainc, yn enwedig, yn euog o gymryd drosodd cyn diriogaethau’r Almaen heb unrhyw fwriad i ganiatáu iddynt benderfynu drostynt eu hunain. Gwyddom beth a ddigwyddodd yn yr hyn a elwid yn Arabia ar y pryd ac ym Mhalestina. Nid oedd yr hawl i hunanbenderfyniad, o ran Prydain bryd hynny, yn berthnasol i Iwerddon. Cymerodd bedair blynedd i gydnabod hynny. Yr oedd Armenia wedi’i dal yn hyn i gyd. Yn ôl pob sôn yr oedd y pwerau buddugol wedi cynnig amddiffyniad iddi, ond wedi tynnu hwnnw’n ôl wedyn. Ni chydnabuwyd Armenia annibynnol erioed.
The turmoil after the end of the first world war and the defeat of the Ottoman armies led to much death, mayhem and displacement across the Caucasus and in parts of what was then the Ottoman empire. Turkey became a secular state in the early 1920s. When Kemal Ataturk took over the country, the move from a religious sultanate was completed, and Turkey became a secular state in the western fashion. The banning of the fez was one example of what happened in Turkey at that time. Turkey still prides itself on being a secular state. Pictures of Kemal Ataturk are still seen in many cafes and shops in Turkey, and he is still revered as the founding father of modern Turkey.
Arweiniodd y cynnwrf ar ôl diwedd y rhyfel byd cyntaf a gorchfygu’r byddinoedd Otomanaidd at lawer o farwolaethau, anhrefn a symudiadau ar draws y Cawcasws ac mewn rhannau o’r Ymerodraeth Otomanaidd fel yr oedd ar y pryd. Daeth Twrci’n wladwriaeth seciwlar ddechrau’r 1920au. Pan ddaeth Kemal Ataturk i rym yn y wlad, yr oedd y symudiad oddi wrth y swltaniaeth grefyddol wedi’i gwblhau, a daeth Twrci’n wladwriaeth seciwlar yn y dull gorllewinol. Gwahardd y fez yw un enghraifft o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Nhwrci bryd hynny. Mae Twrci’n dal i ymfalchïo yn y ffaith ei bod yn wladwriaeth seciwlar. Gwelir lluniau Kemal Ataturk o hyd mewn llawer o gaffis a siopau yn Nhwrci, ac fe’i mawrygir o hyd fel sefydlwr y Dwrci fodern.
The Armenian people contend that a massacre that amounted to genocide took place in the years preceding the first world war and, in particular, in the years after the war ended—in 1918 to 1923 and perhaps beyond. It is ingrained in the folk memory of the Armenian people, who refer to it as metz yeghern—the time of great evil. There is evidence to suggest mass displacement of Armenian people around Europe at that time. The Turkish Government contends that what happened was regrettable but that it was nothing more than the fortunes of war, and that it did not amount to genocide.
Mae’r Armeniaid yn hawlio bod cyflafan a oedd yn gyfystyr â hil-laddiad wedi digwydd yn y blynyddoedd cyn y rhyfel byd cyntaf ac, yn benodol, yn y blynyddoedd wedi i’r rhyfel ddod i ben—rhwng 1918 a 1923 ac ar ôl hynny efallai. Mae wedi ymwreiddio yng nghof gwerin yr Armeniaid, sy’n ei galw’n metz yeghern—cyfnod y drwg mawr. Mae tystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu bod dadleoliad torfol o Armeniaid o gwmpas Ewrop ar y pryd. Mae Llywodraeth Twrci’n hawlio bod yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn destun gofid ond nad oedd yn ddim mwy na ffawd rhyfel, ac nad oedd yn gyfystyr â hil-laddiad.
It is difficult to judge. Many victims of the holocaust during the second world war, as well as many of those who liberated the death camps, are still alive. I have had the honour of meeting members of the British armed forces who liberated the camp at Belsen, and hearing of their experiences. The evidence before us of the holocaust is strong, as there is living evidence and evidence on film. The only conclusion that a sensible person can draw is that mass murder on a grand scale occurred against the Jewish people. When trying to justify the holocaust to his staff, Hitler said that no one would remember in time because ‘who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?’ That is a chilling quotation. I am unqualified to judge as to what happened in this case, although there is strong evidence to suggest that what happened amounted to a massacre. However, many people in Europe do not know of the full extent of what happened, and need to know more about it.
Anodd yw barnu. Mae llawer o ddioddefwyr yr holocost yn ystod yr ail ryfel byd, yn ogystal â llawer o waredwyr y gwersylloedd angau, yn fyw o hyd. Cefais y fraint o gwrdd ag aelodau o luoedd arfog Prydain a waredodd y gwersyll yn Belsen, a chlywed eu profiadau. Mae’r dystiolaeth sydd o’n blaen am yr holocost yn gryf, gan fod tystiolaeth fyw a thystiolaeth ar ffilm. Yr unig gasgliad y gall rhywun synhwyrol ddod iddo yw bod llofruddiaeth dorfol ar raddfa aruthrol wedi digwydd yn erbyn yr Iddewon. Wrth geisio cyfiawnhau’r holocost i’w staff, dywedodd Hitler na fyddai neb yn cofio ymhen amser oherwydd ‘pwy, wedi’r cwbl, sy’n sôn heddiw am ddilead yr Armeniaid?’ Mae hwnnw’n ddyfyniad iasol. Nid wyf yn gymwys i farnu ynghylch yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn yr achos hwn, er bod tystiolaeth gryf sy’n awgrymu bod yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn gyflafan. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o bobl yn Ewrop na wyddant am raddau’r hyn a ddigwyddodd, ac mae angen iddynt wybod mwy amdano.
Tynnaf sylw’r Gweinidog at y dystiolaeth lethol a gynhwysir yn y llyfr glas seneddol, a baratowyd gan Arnold Toynbee a Llywodraeth Prydain. Mae’r ddogfen honno’n cadarnhau y bu hil-laddiad, oherwydd difodwyd poblogaeth gyfan o Armeniaid yn Nhwrci. A yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn mai’r unig bobl sydd yn honni bod ganddynt dystiolaeth ysgolheigaidd yn erbyn yr honiad o hil-laddiad yw’r Tyrciaid eu hunain? Ni ellir cymryd y dystiolaeth honno o ddifrif. Byddai unrhyw hanesydd a ystyriodd y mater hwn yn dod i’r casgliad bod hil-laddiad wedi digwydd, a bod tystiolaeth gref ei fod wedi gweithredu fel model i Hitler. A wnaiff y Gweinidog gydnabod hynny y bore yma?
I draw the Minister’s attention to the overwhelming evidence included in the parliamentary blue book, which was prepared by Arnold Toynbee and the British Government. That document confirms that genocide took place, as an entire population of Armenians in Turkey were annihilated. Does the Minister accept that the only people who allege that they have academic evidence against the claim of genocide are the Turks themselves? That evidence cannot be taken seriously. Any historian who considered this matter would reach the conclusion that genocide occurred and that there is clear evidence that it was a model for Hitler. Will the Minister acknowledge that this morning?
There is no question that the weight of evidence suggests that a mass displacement and killing of Armenian people took place at that time. The Turkish Government contends that there is alternative historical evidence; history teaches us that there is always someone who will say something unusual. One historian in particular believes that the holocaust never happened. You will always find people to back up your case in terms of history and science.
Nid oes amheuaeth nad yw pwysau’r dystiolaeth yn awgrymu bod niferoedd mawr o Armeniaid wedi’u symud a’u lladd bryd hynny. Mae Llywodraeth Twrci’n hawlio bod tystiolaeth hanesyddol arall; mae hanes yn ein dysgu y bydd bob amser rywun a fydd yn dweud rhywbeth anarferol. Mae un hanesydd yn benodol yn credu na ddigwyddodd yr holocost. Fe gewch rai bob amser a wnaiff gefnogi’ch achos o ran hanes a gwyddoniaeth.
I cannot ignore the fact that there is strong evidence to suggest that such a massacre or genocide took place. I cannot ignore the fact that so many national and regional parliaments, including those of France, Belgium, Sweden and the European Parliament, have taken the same view. Most importantly, the Lebanese Parliament also shares that view. One of the allegations that is sometimes thrown at those who contend that genocide took place is that it is the result of anti-Muslim feeling—that it is a conspiracy by Christian governments and parliaments to deprecate a state where the majority of people are Muslims. To say that we live in Christian states in western Europe is an oversimplification. The drive of Christianity is more blunted now than it was 100 or 200 years ago. It is important that the Lebanese Parliament took that view because its state has a majority of Muslims, and that has been the case for some time. We know from the history of the Lebanon in the early 1980s that it also has a large Christian population. However, it has a Muslim majority, therefore Muslims cannot allege that this is an example of prejudice against them.
Ni allaf anwybyddu’r ffaith bod tystiolaeth gryf sy’n awgrymu bod cyflafan neu hil-laddiad o’r fath wedi digwydd. Ni allaf anwybyddu’r ffaith bod cynifer o seneddau cenedlaethol a rhanbarthol, gan gynnwys rhai Ffrainc, Gwlad Belg, Sweden a Senedd Ewrop, wedi datgan yr un farn. Yn bwysicaf oll, mae Senedd Libanus o’r un farn hefyd. Un o’r cyhuddiadau a deflir weithiau at y rhai sy’n hawlio bod hil-laddiad wedi digwydd yw ei fod yn ganlyniad i ymdeimlad gwrth-Foslemaidd—ei fod yn gynllwyn gan lywodraethau a seneddau Cristnogol i wrthwynebu gwladwriaeth lle y mae mwyafrif y bobl yn Foslemiaid. Gorsymleiddio yw dweud ein bod yn byw mewn gwladwriaethau Cristnogol yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Mae egni Cristnogaeth wedi pylu bellach o’i gymharu â 100 neu 200 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae’n bwysig bod Senedd Libanus wedi datgan y farn honno gan fod mwyafrif o Foslemiaid yn ei gwladwriaeth, ac mae hynny’n wir ers cryn amser. Gwyddom o hanes Libanus yn y 1980au cynnar fod ganddi boblogaeth fawr o Gristnogion hefyd. Fodd bynnag, mae ganddi fwyafrif o Foslemiaid, felly ni all Moslemiaid honni bod hyn yn enghraifft o ragfarn yn eu herbyn.
The Turkish Government needs to reconsider carefully what happened in the years after the first world war. It is not good enough to say that this is a plot by non-Muslims or by those who are trying to prevent Turkey from joining the EU; it is not as simple as that. Turkey has the right to exist, as does the new state of Armenia. Turkey should reconsider carefully all of the evidence, not only the parts that it considers to be important.
Rhaid i Lywodraeth Twrci ailystyried yn ofalus yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y blynyddoedd ar ôl y rhyfel byd cyntaf. Nid yw’n ddigon da dweud bod hyn yn gynllwyn gan rai nad ydynt yn Foslemiaid neu gan rai sy’n ceisio atal Twrci rhag ymuno â’r UE; nid yw mor syml â hynny. Mae gan Dwrci hawl i fodoli, fel y mae gan wladwriaeth newydd Armenia. Dylai Twrci ailystyried yr holl dystiolaeth yn ofalus, ac nid y rhannau y mae’n eu hystyried yn bwysig yn unig.
Other states have recognised their past misdemeanours and crimes. Those states have grown and prospered as a result of that recognition. They have cleared the decks. People have accepted that difficult and bad incidents have occurred and now they can move on. In reconsidering what happened to Armenians between 1909 and 23, the Turkish Government must decide whether it wants to clear the decks, whether it should recognise that something different to its point of view occurred, and whether a recognition of that would lead to the matter being laid to rest and to a greater respect for how Turkey deals with its history. That is a matter for the Turkish Government. We cannot ignore the fact that so many national parliaments and regional assemblies believe that genocide occurred and that so many academics have unearthed evidence of what could be described as genocide.
Mae gwladwriaethau eraill wedi cydnabod eu camymddygiad a’u troseddau yn y gorffennol. Mae’r gwladwriaethau hynny wedi tyfu a ffynnu o ganlyniad i’r gydnabyddiaeth honno. Maent wedi clirio’r byrddau. Mae pobl wedi derbyn bod digwyddiadau dyrys a drwg wedi bod ac yn awr gallant symud ymlaen. Wrth ailystyried yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i Armeniaid rhwng 1909 a 1923, rhaid i Lywodraeth Twrci benderfynu a yw am glirio’r byrddau, a ddylai gydnabod bod rhywbeth gwahanol i’w safbwynt hi wedi digwydd, ac a fyddai cydnabod hynny’n arwain at setlo’r mater a mwy o barch at y modd y mae Twrci’n delio â’i hanes. Mae hynny’n fater i Lywodraeth Twrci. Ni allwn anwybyddu’r ffaith bod cynifer o seneddau cenedlaethol a chynulliadau rhanbarthol yn credu bod hil-laddiad wedi digwydd a bod cynifer o academwyr wedi datgelu tystiolaeth o’r hyn y gellid ei alw’n hil-laddiad.
Successive British Governments have not been persuaded that the evidence is sufficiently unequivocal to categorise the Armenian massacres as genocide, as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide. That does not suggest that what happened should be forgotten, or that it can be brushed under the carpet, or that there are people who will not continue to delve and work so that the truth is made known. It is important that the Welsh Assembly Government—for what it is worth, because we do not have a foreign policy role—urges the Governments of Armenia and Turkey to look to the future, to build a better relationship, and to work towards peace, security and mutual understanding in a region that, for so much of its history, has been torn by strife and war. The recent visit to Wales by delegates from the National Assembly of Armenia helped in that process.
Mae’r naill Lywodraeth Brydeinig ar ôl y llall heb gael ei darbwyllo bod y dystiolaeth yn ddigon diamwys i ddynodi’r cyflafanau Armenaidd yn hil-laddiad, yn ôl diffiniad Cytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hil-laddiad yn 1948. Nid yw hynny’n awgrym y dylid anghofio am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd, neu y gellir ei ysgubo o’r golwg, neu nad oes rhai a fydd yn dal i dyrchu a gweithio fel y ceir gwybod y gwir. Mae’n bwysig bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—am ei werth, oherwydd nid oes gennym rôl polisi tramor—yn pwyso ar Lywodraethau Armenia a Thwrci i edrych tua’r dyfodol, adeiladu gwell perthynas, ac ymdrechu i sicrhau heddwch, diogelwch a chyd-ddealltwriaeth mewn rhanbarth sydd wedi’i rwygo gan gynnen a rhyfel drwy lawer o’i hanes. Mae’r ymweliad diweddar â Chymru gan gynrychiolwyr o Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Armenia wedi helpu yn y broses honno.
The one thing that the history of Armenia teaches us, as indeed does the history of the second world war and the history of Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, is that we cannot simply sit back and hope that the problem goes away. The massacres and the genocide that took place in Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, which we saw on our television screens, was a disgrace. What happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, particularly to those Muslims who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, was a disgrace that is only now being rectified. It would have been better if there had been some form of intervention at the time rather than bringing people to trial 10 years after the event. However, in the finest tradition of western European foreign office departments, people sat on their hands and did nothing, and indeed deprived one side of the weapons that the other side was receiving via other countries to the east of Yugoslavia.
Y peth pwysicaf y mae hanes Armenia’n ein dysgu fel, yn wir, y mae hanes yr ail ryfel byd a hanes Iwgoslafia yn y 1990au cynnar, yw na allwn eistedd yn braf a gobeithio y bydd y broblem yn diflannu. Yr oedd y cyflafanau a’r hil-laddiad a ddigwyddodd yn Iwgoslafia yn y 1990au cynnar, a welsom ar ein sgriniau teledu, yn warth. Yr oedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd ym Mosnia-Hertsegofina, yn enwedig i’r Moslemiaid hynny a oedd yn y lle anghywir ar yr adeg anghywir, yn warth nad yw ond yn cael ei unioni’n awr. Buasai’n well pe buasai rhyw fath o ymyriad ar y pryd yn hytrach na dwyn achos yn erbyn pobl 10 mlynedd ar ôl y digwyddiad. Fodd bynnag, yn unol â thraddodiad gorau adrannau swyddfa dramor gorllewin Ewrop, fe eisteddodd pobl ar eu dwylo a gwneud dim ac, yn wir, amddifadu un ochr o’r arfau yr oedd yr ochr arall yn eu derbyn drwy wledydd eraill i’r dwyrain o Iwgoslafia.
We must never forget what is done in the name of one race against another, by one country against another, or say that what we need to do is just sweep it under the carpet and forget about it. If we do that, it shows that as human beings we never learn from mistakes. We can never allow that to happen. While the Assembly Government cannot give a definitive answer to Cynog’s short debate, and I am aware of the statement of opinion that Cynog mentioned, we must bear in mind what the weight of evidence actually is. When people examine that weight of evidence, they may wish to draw certain conclusions.
Rhaid inni beidio byth ag anghofio’r hyn a wneir yn enw un hil yn erbyn un arall, gan un wlad yn erbyn un arall, neu ddweud mai’r hyn y dylem ei wneud yw ei ysgubo o’r golwg a’i anghofio. Os gwnawn hynny, mae’n dangos na fyddwn byth yn dysgu oddi wrth ein camgymeriadau fel bodau dynol. Ni allwn byth adael i hynny ddigwydd. Er na all Llywodraeth y Cynulliad roi ateb diffiniol i ddadl fer Cynog, ac yr wyf yn gwybod am y datganiad o farn y soniodd Cynog amdano, rhaid inni gofio beth yw gwir bwysau’r dystiolaeth. Pan fydd pobl yn ystyried pwysau’r dystiolaeth honno, efallai y byddant yn dymuno dod i rai casgliadau.
I emphasise that there has been no pressure on me, and there has been no communication from the Turkish Embassy and the Turkish Government, or from the Foreign Office in London. This is my individual viewpoint, and I speak today on behalf of the Government. If any attempt had been made to put pressure on me, I guarantee that I would have told you, because I am not prepared to buckle under such pressure. Much still needs to be done to inform people of what happened in those terrible years in Armenia and what happened to the people of Armenia. We must encourage those organisations, which Cynog mentioned, that seek nothing more than the truth.
Pwysleisiaf na fu unrhyw bwysau arnaf, ac na fu unrhyw gyfathrebu oddi wrth Lysgenhadaeth Twrci a Llywodraeth Twrci, neu oddi wrth y Swyddfa Dramor yn Llundain. Fy safbwynt i fel unigolyn yw hwn, a siaradaf heddiw ar ran y Llywodraeth. Pe buasai unrhyw ymdrech i roi pwysau arnaf, fe’ch sicrhaf y byddwn wedi dweud wrthych, oherwydd nid wyf yn barod i blygu o dan bwysau o’r fath. Mae angen gwneud llawer eto i hysbysu pobl am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y blynyddoedd ofnadwy hynny yn Armenia a’r hyn a ddigwyddodd i bobl Armenia. Rhaid inni gefnogi’r mudiadau hynny, y cyfeiriodd Cynog atynt, nad ydynt yn ceisio dim mwy na’r gwirionedd.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.06 p.m.
The session ended at 12.06 p.m.