English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 12 Mawrth 2002

Tuesday 12 March 2002

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:29

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 3Buddion Polisïau’r LlywodraethBenefits of Government Policy
    2. 5Adolygiad Cynhwysfawr o WariantComprehensive Spending Review
    3. 7Datganoli Pŵer i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruDevolution of Power to the National Assembly for Wales
    4. 10Gweithredu Polisïau yn Nwyrain De CymruImplementation of Policies in South Wales East
    5. 11Y Comisiwn Annibynol ar Bwerau’r CynulliadThe Independent Commission on Assembly Powers
    6. 13Cyfarfodydd â ConsigniaMeetings with Consignia
    7. 15Canolfan Ymwelwyr BHP Billiton yn LlanasaBHP Billiton’s Visitor Centre in Talacre
    8. 16Effeithiau yr Ewro ar GymruEffects of the Euro on Wales
    9. 18Blaenoriaethau’r CabinetCabinet Priorities
  2. 22Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  3. 22Datganiad ar Hiliaeth mewn ChwaraeonStatement on Racism in Sport
  4. 30Datganiad ar Gynigion Llwyddiannus ar gyfer Rhaglenni Hybu Iechyd yn y Sector GwirfoddolStatement on Successful Voluntary Sector Health Promotion Scheme Bids
  5. 41Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  6. 43Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  7. 47Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  8. 49Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Grantiau Cyfalaf) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Education (Capital Grants) (Wales) Regulations 2002 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  9. 58Cymeradwyo’r Newidiadau i’r Prif Grwpiau GwariantApproval of Changes to the Main Expenditure Groups 1 bleidlais1 vote
  10. 64Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  11. 65Gwasanaethau PostPostal Services 5 o bleidleisiau5 votes
  12. 104Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders
Cynnig cyfansawdd NDM982Composite motion NDM9825100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Grantiau Cyfalaf) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Education (Capital Grants) (Wales) Regulations 2002
Cynnig NDM983Motion NDM9834900DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM984Motion NDM9845000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo’r Newidiadau i’r Prif Grwpiau GwariantApproval of Changes to the Main Expenditure Groups
Cynnig NDM985Motion NDM9854500DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwasanaethau PostPostal Services
Gwelliant 1Amendment 120029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 225024DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 3Amendment 312037GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 437120DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion5000DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Buddion Polisïau’r Llywodraeth

Benefits of Government Policy

Q1 Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 3

C1 Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

How have the policies of the Government of Wales benefited Mid and West Wales? (OAQ16197)

Sut y mae polisïau Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod o fudd i Ganolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? (OAQ16197)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I refer you to one of the significant moves in recent weeks, which was writing off the debts of Dyfed Powys Health Authority and some of the health trusts in that area. Dyfed Powys Health Authority owed £23.7 million and was due to start repaying it in 2003. That is a major burden lifted from the shoulders of the authority and trusts. Over £30 million has been written off in total.

Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at un o’r datblygiadau pwysig yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf, sef dileu dyledion Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys a rhai o’r ymddiriedolaethau iechyd yn yr ardal honno. Yr oedd Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys mewn dyled o £23.7 miliwn ac yr oedd disgwyl iddo ddechrau ei ad-dalu yn 2003. Mae hynny’n faich anferth a godwyd oddi ar ysgwyddau’r awdurdod a’r ymddiriedolaethau. Dilëwyd cyfanswm o dros £30 miliwn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 3

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I recognise the importance of that to Mid and West Wales. However, I want to ask about the council tax settlement and its effect on education. The teachers’ pay settlement has not been fully funded in Wales, money is not going directly to schools in Wales as it does in England, and many schools in my constituency are concerned that they are being short-changed. I believe that that is the case. I recently visited Crickhowell, Builth Wells and Brecon high schools. They feel that they are being short-changed, which is evidenced by the figures. Will you reconsider directly funding schools? That would lift children’s educational attainment throughout Wales.

Cydnabyddaf bwysigrwydd hynny i Ganolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn holi ynglŷn â setliad y dreth gyngor a’i effaith ar addysg. Nid ariannwyd y setliad cyflog i athrawon yn llawn yng Nghymru, ni roddir arian yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion yng Nghymru fel sy’n digwydd yn Lloegr, ac mae llawer o ysgolion yn fy etholaeth yn pryderu eu bod yn cael cam. Credaf eu bod yn iawn. Yn ddiweddar ymwelais ag ysgolion uwchradd yng Nghrucywel, Llanfair ym Muallt ac Aberhonddu. Teimlant eu bod yn cael cam, ac mae hynny’n amlwg o’r ffigurau. A ystyriwch ariannu ysgolion yn uniongyrchol? Byddai hynny’n gwella cyflawniad addysgol plant drwy Gymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

We will not reopen the issue of direct funding of schools. However, by common consent, next year’s local government revenue settlement is good; it allows for 6.75 per cent growth and it took account, through the revenue support grant, of our estimation of the upper pay spine pressure at this stage. However, that depends on headteachers exercising proper responsibility in applying the guidance relating to the upper pay spine. We have already made it clear that we will be prepared to consider in-year pressures, if hard evidence demonstrates a need to do so.

Ni wnawn ailagor mater ariannu ysgolion yn uniongyrchol. Fodd bynnag, y farn gyffredinol yw bod setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol y flwyddyn nesaf yn dda; mae’n caniatáu ar gyfer twf o 6.75 y cant ac ystyriodd, drwy’r grant cymorth refeniw, ein hamcangyfrif o’r pwysau ar y raddfa gyflog uchaf ar yr adeg hon. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n dibynnu ar benaethiaid yn ymddwyn yn gyfrifol wrth weithredu ar y canllawiau sy’n ymwneud â’r raddfa gyflog uchaf. Yr ydym eisoes wedi egluro y byddwn yn barod i ystyried pwysau yn ystod y flwyddyn, os bydd tystiolaeth gadarn yn dangos bod angen gwneud hynny.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 4

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

You are aware that many people in the farming and tourism industries in Brecon and Radnorshire are beginning to come to grips with the tragic circumstances of last year’s foot and mouth disease crisis. Are you satisfied that the Assembly support provided via the rural recovery programme is delivering for the people of Brecon and Radnorshire, and how are you monitoring the effects of that expenditure?

Yr ydych yn ymwybodol bod llawer o bobl yn y diwydiannau ffermio a thwristiaeth ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed yn dechrau dod i arfer ag amgylchiadau erchyll argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau y llynedd. A ydych yn fodlon bod cymorth y Cynulliad a ddarperir drwy’r rhaglen adfywio gwledig yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i bobl Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed, a sut yr ydych yn monitro effeithiau’r gwariant hwnnw?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

The tourist season is getting underway about now. It appears to have made a reasonable start but it could go pear-shaped during the year, for all sorts of reasons that are outside our control. However, the assistance that we directed to local authorities like Powys, to be passed on to those who can make a good case for assistance, and our programme for extending rate relief for small businesses—from the small local shop to other businesses on which local services depend—are positive programmes. They compare favourably with the programmes available elsewhere in the UK.

Mae’r tymor twristiaeth ar fin cychwyn. Ymddengys ei fod wedi dechrau’n eithaf da ond gallai pethau fynd o chwith yn ystod y flwyddyn, am bob math o resymau sydd y tu hwnt i’n rheolaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cymorth a roesom i awdurdodau lleol fel Powys, i’w drosglwyddo i’r rhai sy’n gallu cyflwyno achos da dros gael cymorth, a’n rhaglen ar gyfer ehangu’r cynllun rhyddhad trethi i gynnwys busnesau bach—o’r siop fach leol i fusnesau eraill y mae gwasanaethau lleol yn dibynnu arnynt—yn rhaglenni cadarnhaol. Maent yn cymharu’n ffafriol â’r rhaglenni sydd ar gael mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 4

Mae incwm cyfartalog yng Nghymru wedi cwympo o 87 y cant i 86 y cant o gyfartaledd Prydain. Wrth ystyried bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn israddio gweithgynhyrchu, twristiaeth ac amaethyddiaeth, a chan gofio effeithiau BSE, clwy’r traed a’r genau, ac yn y blaen, mae’n sicr bod y sefyllfa yn y Canolbarth a’r Gorllewin yn waeth na hynny. A wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru gydnabod y realiti caled hwnnw ac ildio i alwad Plaid Cymru am osod targedau rhanbarthol ar gyfer creu swyddi yn y strategaeth datblygu economaidd? A wnaiff hefyd fwydo’r realiti hwnnw i fformiwla gyllido llywodraeth leol yn y dyfodol?

Average income in Wales has fallen from 87 per cent to 86 per cent of the British average. Given that the United Kingdom Government is running down manufacturing, tourism and agriculture, and bearing in mind the effects of BSE, foot and mouth disease, and so on, the situation in Mid and West Wales is certainly worse than that. Will the Government of Wales acknowledge that hard reality and give in to Plaid Cymru’s demand that regional targets for job creation be set in the economic development strategy? Will he also take account of that reality in the local government funding formula in the future?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 4

Gwelaf nad yw Cynog wedi cyfeirio at y ffigurau a roddais wrth ateb Nick. Yr oedd cynnydd, yn uwch na chwyddiant, o 6.75 y cant yn y cyllid ar gyfer llywodraeth leol. Mae’r elfennau hynny y bu ichi eu rhestru wedi bod yn ergydion caled i’r Canolbarth. Sylwais hefyd na fu ichi gydnabod y pwyntiau a wneuthum i Kirsty. Credaf mai cwestiwn wedi’i ddarllen oedd gennych yn hytrach na chwestiwn deallus, os gallaf ei roi felly. Dylid bob tro ystyried yr atebion a wnaed eisoes wrth ofyn cwestiwn, Cynog.

I see that Cynog did not refer to the figures that I gave in reply to Nick. There was an increase, above inflation, of 6.75 per cent in the funding for local government. Those elements that you listed have hit mid Wales hard. I also notice that you did not pick up on the points that I made to Kirsty. I think that that question was read out, rather than it being an intelligent question, if I can put it like that. In asking a question, Cynog, you should always consider the answers that have already been given.

Adolygiad Cynhwysfawr o Wariant

Comprehensive Spending Review

Q2 Phil Williams spoken in English p. 5

C2 Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that a fair assessment of the needs of Wales is included in the current comprehensive spending review? (OAQ16202)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru er mwyn sicrhau bod asesiad teg o anghenion Cymru yn cael ei gynnwys yn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr presennol o wariant? (OAQ16202)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

The basis of the comprehensive spending review will be as before. As the head of the only devolved administration—pre or post democratic devolution—that has achieved a settlement that included money outside the Barnett formula, I have a basis for saying that we have done it before. I am as confident now as I was at the same stage of the comprehensive spending review negotiations two years ago that we can do it again. We cannot guarantee that, but I am confident that a well-argued case, presented by me, the Secretary of State and Edwina Hart, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will be successful.

Bydd sail yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant fel o’r blaen. Fel pennaeth yr unig weinyddiaeth ddatganoledig—cyn neu ar ôl datganoli democrataidd—a sicrhaodd setliad a oedd yn cynnwys arian yn ychwanegol at fformiwla Barnett, mae gennyf reswm dros ddweud ein bod wedi gwneud hynny o’r blaen. Gallwn ei wneud eto, ac yr wyf yr un mor hyderus o hynny yn awr ag yr oeddwn ar ddechrau’r un cam yn negodiadau’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant ddwy flynedd yn ôl. Ni allwn warantu hynny, ond yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd achos â dadleuon cryf, wedi’i gyflwyno gennyf fi, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ac Edwina Hart, i Ganghellor y Trysorlys, yn llwyddiannus.

We must show that we have the capacity to spend the money and that we do not underspend. We will be able to demonstrate that we are high up the league table in terms of not underspending. We must also demonstrate need in order to get additional moneys over and above Barnett. We have done that in the past through our need for match funding to enable us to spend Objective 1 to the full.

Rhaid inni ddangos ein bod yn gallu gwario’r arian ac nad ydym yn tanwario. Byddwn yn gallu dangos ein bod wrth frig tabl y gynghrair o ran peidio â thanwario. Rhaid inni hefyd brofi angen er mwyn cael arian ychwanegol at fformiwla Barnett. Gwnaethom hynny yn y gorffennol drwy gyfleu ein hangen am arian cyfatebol i’n galluogi i fanteisio ar arian Amcan 1 i’r eithaf.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 5

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

According to your figures on the profile of spending on structural funds, the European component will increase over the next three years to an average of £70 million per year more than in this year. The corresponding public sector match funding will increase from £100 million to £150 million per year. Do you accept that unless both these increases are met in full, there will be a hole in the budget? If you do not succeed in getting a contribution to public sector match funding this time, will you sacrifice the Objective 1 programme or the core budgets for health and education?

Yn ôl eich ffigurau ar y proffil o wario ar arian strwythurol, bydd yr elfen Ewropeaidd yn cynyddu dros y tair blynedd nesaf i gyfartaledd o £70 miliwn y flwyddyn yn fwy na’r swm eleni. Bydd arian cyfatebol y sector cyhoeddus yn cynyddu o £100 miliwn i £150 miliwn bob blwyddyn. A dderbyniwch y bydd bwlch yn y gyllideb oni bai y caiff symiau cyfatebol i’r ddau gynnydd hyn eu talu’n llawn? Os na lwyddwch i sicrhau cyfraniad at yr arian cyfatebol cyhoeddus y tro hwn, a fyddwch yn aberthu rhaglen Amcan 1 neu’r cyllidebau craidd ar gyfer iechyd ac addysg?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Plaid Cymru’s existence over the past three years has not been based on the search for independence, but on demonstrating that we are incapable of either funding or getting match funding for Objective 1. Yet again, you are predicating the words ‘what will you do if you fail?’, as you did unsuccessfully two years ago. You do not recognise that, far from failing, we succeeded. We are the only administration to have succeeded in obtaining additional money over the Barnett formula’s 21-year existence. I do not know why you assume that you can direct that question at me, hold your head up high and ask ‘if you fail this time, will you sacrifice health and education or Objective 1?’ You should have listened to my previous answer: we have done it before, and I am equally confident that we can do it again.

Ni fu bodolaeth Plaid Cymru dros y tair blynedd diwethaf yn seiliedig ar yr ymgyrch dros annibyniaeth, ond yn hytrach ar ddangos na allwn naill ai gael arian Amcan 1 neu gael arian cyfatebol ar ei gyfer. Unwaith eto, yr hyn yr ydych yn ceisio’i ddweud yw ‘beth a wnewch os byddwch yn methu?’, fel y gwnaethoch yn aflwyddiannus ddwy flynedd yn ôl. Ni wnaethoch gydnabod mai llwyddo a wnaethom, a’n bod ymhell o fethu. Ni yw’r unig weinyddiaeth sydd wedi llwyddo i gael arian ychwanegol ers llunio fformiwla Barnett 21 mlynedd yn ôl. Ni wn pam eich bod yn tybio y gallwch ofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw i mi, gan ddal eich pen yn uchel a dweud ‘os methwch y tro hwn, a fyddwch yn aberthu iechyd ac addysg neu Amcan 1?’ Dylech fod wedi gwrando ar fy ateb blaenorol: yr ydym wedi gwneud hyn o’r blaen, ac yr wyf yr un mor hyderus y gallwn ei wneud eto.

Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 6

Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Do you agree that the Wanless report that the Chancellor received, and its closely argued case for more expenditure on the NHS, could lead to a further squeeze on the Welsh block through the Barnett formula, particularly as there are more doctors and nurses per capita in Wales than in England? The formula will only reflect average expenditure across England and Wales. Do you think that trying to renegotiate that position in the block or, at least, getting a supplementary approval for the block, will be essential? Is it not part of your strategy in the ongoing negotiation on the comprehensive spending review to ensure that we have sufficient resources to deal with the implications of the Wanless report in Wales?

A gytunwch y gallai adroddiad Wanless a gyflwynwyd i’r Canghellor, ynghyd â’i ddadl gref dros fwy o wariant ar y GIG, arwain at fwy o bwysau ar floc Cymru drwy fformiwla Barnett, yn enwedig gan fod mwy o feddygon a nyrsys fesul pen o’r boblogaeth yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr? Dim ond gwariant ar gyfartaledd ar draws Cymru a Lloegr y bydd y fformiwla yn ei adlewyrchu. A gredwch y bydd yn rhaid ceisio ailnegodi’r sefyllfa honno yn y bloc neu, o leiaf, cael cymeradwyaeth atodol ar gyfer y bloc,? Onid yw’n rhan o’ch strategaeth yn y negodi presennol ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant i sicrhau bod gennym ddigon o adnoddau i fynd i’r afael â goblygiadau adroddiad Wanless yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

We are taking part in the Wanless review, and have an input into it. It is not clear how the Chancellor will turn the recommendations of the Wanless report into reality. All we know is that we can anticipate a major uplift in the proportion of total Government expenditure on health. There have also been hints about overseas aid. We do not know the implications of that for the Barnett consequentials, because we do not know how it will be structured. It may not be done by means of conventional government expenditure. There may be an element of hypothecation, but we have no idea as yet. We therefore cannot calculate the impact of that on convergence. However, I would tend to play down the fear that a major uplift in health expenditure via the Wanless report will place a huge early pressure on us in terms of convergence. According to our calculations, we are probably talking about a problem that would emerge over 50 years rather than over five or 10 years.

Yr ydym yn cymryd rhan yn adolygiad Wanless, ac yn cyfrannu ato. Nid yw’n glir sut y bydd y Canghellor yn gwireddu argymhellion yr adroddiad. Yr unig beth a wyddom yw y gallwn ragweld cynnydd mawr yng nghyfran y Llywodraeth ar gyfanswm y gwariant ar iechyd. Hefyd cafwyd awgrymiadau ynglŷn â chymorth dramor. Ni wyddom oblygiadau hynny i ganlyniadau Barnett, oherwydd na wyddom sut y caiff ei strwythuro. Efallai na chaiff ei wneud drwy wariant confensiynol y llywodraeth. Efallai y bydd elfen o bridiannu, ond nid oes gennym syniad eto. Felly ni allwn gyfrifo effaith hynny ar y cydgyfeiriad. Fodd bynnag, teimlaf na ddylid rhoi gormod o bwys ar y pryder y bydd cynnydd mawr yng ngwariant iechyd o ganlyniad i adroddiad Wanless yn rhoi pwysau cynnar anferth arnom o ran cydgyfeirio. Yn ôl ein cyfrifon, mae’n debyg ein bod yn siarad am broblem a fyddai’n ymddangos dros 50 mlynedd yn hytrach na dros bum neu 10 mlynedd.

Datganoli Pŵer i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Devolution of Power to the National Assembly for Wales

Q3 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 7

C3 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will the First Minister make a statement on any continuing discussions with the Prime Minister in regard of the further devolution of power from Westminster to the Assembly? (OAQ16200)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar unrhyw drafodaethau sy’n parhau â’r Prif Weinidog mewn perthynas â datganoli rhagor o bŵer o San Steffan i’r Cynulliad? (OAQ16200)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I discuss this matter frequently—almost weekly—with the Secretary of State for Wales, but I have not discussed it with the Prime Minister recently. Transfers of functions of powers can take place in the settlement and functions continue to be transferred. You will have noticed that the transfer of functions relating to the European social fund has already taken place, and you will be aware of our moves regarding animal health powers and energy planning functions above 250 megawatts. You would not believe, Mick, what a narrow range of functions the old Welsh Office had when I joined it as a young and callow civil servant in 1966. At that time, its powers only extended to housing, roads and local government. When you consider the range of powers that we exercise today, devolution is clearly a continuing process.

Trafodaf y mater hwn yn aml—bron bob wythnos—gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ond nid wyf wedi’i drafod â’r Prif Weinidog yn ddiweddar. Gall trosglwyddo swyddogaethau pwerau ddigwydd drwy gyfrwng y setliad a bydd y swyddogaethau’n parhau i gael eu trosglwyddo. Byddwch wedi sylwi bod swyddogaethau sy’n ymwneud â chronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop eisoes wedi’u trosglwyddo, a byddwch yn ymwybodol o’n hymgais i gael pwerau ym maes iechyd anifeiliaid a swyddogaethau cynllunio ynni uwchlaw 250 megawatt. Ni fyddech yn credu, Mick, pa mor gul oedd ystod swyddogaethau yr hen Swyddfa Gymreig pan ymunais â hi fel gwas sifil ifanc a dibrofiad yn 1966. Ar y pryd, dim ond pwerau ym maes tai, ffyrdd a llywodraeth leol a oedd ganddi. Pan fyddwch yn ystyried ystod y pwerau sydd gennym heddiw, mae datganoli yn amlwg yn broses barhaus.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 8

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Thank you for that interesting answer, First Minister. However, do you take issue with the Secretary of State for Wales, who said that the devolution agreement was built to last? Or do you agree with your colleague, Alun Pugh, that we need primary legislative powers?

Diolch am yr ateb diddorol hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn anghytuno ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, a ddywedodd fod y cytundeb datganoli wedi’i lunio i barhau? Neu a gytunwch â’ch cyd-Aelod, Alun Pugh, fod angen pwerau deddfu arnom?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

That is a slightly different version of the question. Widening the functions that we can exercise can be done by transferring functions via an Order in Council, without the need for primary legislation. Although we could recommend that we be given primary legislative powers, we could not determine that ourselves; that is a matter for Westminster. However, we have agreed to set up an independent commission to consider this issue, and I hope to be able to report more on that over the next few months.

Mae hwnnw’n fersiwn ychydig yn wahanol o’r cwestiwn. Gellid ehangu’r swyddogaethau y gallwn eu harfer drwy drosglwyddo swyddogaethau drwy Orchymyn yn y Cyfrin Gyngor, heb yr angen am ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Er y gallem argymell y dylid rhoi pwerau deddfwriaethol sylfaenol inni, ni allem bennu hynny ein hunain; mater i San Steffan ydyw. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi cytuno i sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol i ystyried y mater hwn, a gobeithiaf y gallaf ddweud mwy am hynny dros yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 8

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you agree that, before we can have a real debate on Westminster extending significant powers to the Assembly, the Assembly needs to prove that it can use its existing powers effectively? The Assembly has almost total responsibility for health. However, given that waiting lists have doubled since 1997, that does not demonstrate an effective use of its powers.

A gytunwch, cyn y gallwn gael trafodaeth wirioneddol ar San Steffan yn rhoi pwerau sylweddol i’r Cynulliad, fod angen i’r Cynulliad brofi y gall ddefnyddio ei bwerau presennol yn effeithiol? Mae gan y Cynulliad bron â bod gyfrifoldeb llwyr dros iechyd. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried bod rhestrau aros wedi dyblu ers 1997, nid yw hynny’n dangos defnydd effeithiol o’i bwerau.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I am not sure that I would accept that definition of the use of powers. However, I agree that at the next election this administration will be judged on how effectively it has delivered public services. I would welcome that challenge in May 2003.

Nid wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn derbyn y diffiniad hwnnw o’r defnydd o bwerau. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf y caiff y weinyddiaeth hon ei barnu yn ystod yr etholiad nesaf ar ba mor effeithiol y mae wedi darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Byddwn yn croesawu’r her honno ym mis Mai 2003.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 8

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

In relation to the further devolution of powers for other aspects of public services such as education, can you tell us whether enough money has been put into the settlement for teachers’ pay next year? Can you reaffirm your commitment to strongly supporting the development of the teaching profession?

O ran datganoli pwerau ymhellach ar gyfer agweddau eraill ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus fel addysg, a allwch ddweud wrthym a roddwyd digon o arian yn y setliad ar gyfer cyflogau athrawon y flwyddyn nesaf? A wnewch chi ailddatgan eich ymrwymiad i roi cefnogaeth gref i ddatblygiad y proffesiwn dysgu?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Yes. I noticed somewhat fevered press comment this morning on this issue, implying that the Assembly somehow, in its revenue support grant settlement to local government, has left a hole that will cause teacher redundancies throughout Wales. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have estimated what we believe the additional cost to local government will be of teachers passing through to the upper pay spine.

Gwnaf. Darllenais sylwadau braidd yn anniddig yn y wasg y bore yma ar y mater hwn, a oedd yn awgrymu bod y Cynulliad rhywsut, yn ei setliad grant cymorth refeniw i lywodraeth leol, wedi gadael bwlch a fydd yn arwain at ddiswyddiadau i athrawon drwy Gymru. Nid yw hynny’n wir o gwbl. Yr ydym wedi amcangyfrif beth fydd y gost ychwanegol i lywodraeth leol, yn ein barn ni, o ganlyniad i athrawon yn cyrraedd y raddfa gyflog uwch.

As I said five or 10 minutes ago, if the estimate proves to be inadequate—and this must not be a matter of bleating before the event; it must be based on evidence during the year—we have agreed to reconsider the matter. Sometimes these matters are hard to estimate. However, we will not reconsider the issue because of a scare story in the press in March. We will do so if hard evidence is produced in-year.

Fel y dywedais bump neu 10 munud yn ôl, os gwelir bod yr amcangyfrif yn annigonol—ac ni ddylai hyn fod yn fater o gwyno cyn y digwyddiad; rhaid iddo fod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth yn ystod y flwyddyn—yr ydym wedi cytuno i ailystyried y mater. Weithiau mae’n anodd amcangyfrif materion o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddwn yn ailystyried y mater oherwydd stori frawychus yn y wasg ym mis Mawrth. Byddwn yn gwneud hynny os daw tystiolaeth gadarn i’r amlwg yn ystod y flwyddyn.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 9

Brif Weinidog, dros y flwyddyn nesaf bydd yn rhaid ichi ddarparu ateb gwell ar eich safbwynt ar bwerau deddfu, na’r un a roddwyd gennych i Mick Bates.

First Minister, over the coming year you will have to provide a better answer on your stance on legislative powers than that which you gave to Mick Bates.

Y realiti yw y bydd tair plaid, dros y flwyddyn nesaf, yn gallu cyfleu eu safbwyntiau—er yn wahanol—yn glir. Mae Plaid Cymru yn gwneud hynny heddiw, fel y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Torïaid. Chi sydd yn arwain yr unig blaid na fydd yn gallu dweud yn ystod etholiad 2003 a ydyw yn dymuno cael pwerau deddfu ai peidio. A ddywedwch wrthom heddiw beth yw eich safbwynt?

The reality is that three parties will, over the coming year, be able to state their position—albeit different—clearly. Plaid Cymru is doing so today, as are the Liberal Democrats and the Tories. You lead the only party that will be unable to state, during the 2003 election, whether it is for or against acquiring legislative powers. Will you tell us today where you stand on this?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9

Nid mater i mi yw hwn ond i’r blaid. Cymeraf nad ydych am gael ateb personol. Cynhelir cynhadledd y Blaid Lafur ymhen pythefnos, a bydd un arall y flwyddyn nesaf cyn inni gwblhau ein maniffesto. Nid mater i chi, fel arweinydd yr wrthblaid, yw gosod amserlen ar gyfer plaid arall a dweud bod yn rhaid i’r Blaid Lafur ddweud wrthych heddiw beth fydd yn ein maniffesto y flwyddyn nesaf.

This is not a matter for me, but for the party. I take it that you do not want a personal answer. The Labour Party conference will be held in two weeks’ time, and another will be held next year before we finalise our manifesto. It is not for you, as leader of the opposition, to set a timetable for another party and say that the Labour Party must tell you today what will be in our manifesto next year.

Ni fyddwn mor amharchus â dweud fy mod am ysgrifennu maniffesto plaid arall drosti. Ysgrifennwch eich maniffesto eich hun a seiliwch eich ymgyrch etholiadol ar hynny, Ieuan. Ysgrifennwn ein maniffesto ein hunain a safwn ar sail hynny.

I would never be so disrespectful as to say that I wanted to write another party’s manifesto on its behalf. Write your own manifesto and base your election campaign on that, Ieuan. We will write our own manifesto and stand on the basis of it.

Gweithredu Polisïau yn Nwyrain De Cymru

Implementation of Policies in South Wales East

Q4 William Graham spoken in English p. 10

C4 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will the First Minister make a statement about any recent discussions he has held with the Secretary of State for Wales about the implementation of Assembly policies in South Wales East? (OAQ16192)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch unrhyw drafodaethau diweddar y mae wedi’u cael ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch gweithredu polisïau’r Cynulliad yn Nwyrain De Cymru? (OAQ16192)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I am grateful for that question. The Secretary of State for Wales, William and I all have constituency interests in this area of Wales. It is not extensive geographically, but it is so in terms of industry, manufacturing, gross domestic product, and so forth. The record on inward investment for south-east Wales and encouraging indigenous enterprise is quite healthy for 2001. There were 36 inward investment projects, with capital expenditure of over £385 million and the promise of over 2,000 new jobs. Almost 1,000 jobs have been safeguarded.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, William a minnau fuddiannau etholaethol yn y rhan hon o Gymru. Nid yw’n ardal fawr yn ddaearyddol, ond mae’n fawr o ran diwydiant, gweithgynhyrchu, cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth, ac ati. Mae’r record ar fuddsoddi mewnol yn Nwyrain De Cymru ac annog menter gynhenid yn gymharol iach ar gyfer 2001. Yr oedd 36 o brosiectau buddsoddi mewnol, gyda gwariant cyfalaf o dros £385 miliwn a’r addewid o fwy na 2,000 o swyddi newydd. Cafodd bron i 1,000 o swyddi eu diogelu.

William Graham spoken in English p. 10

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will you confirm that the new enterprise company for Newport East will include the site of Llanwern steelworks, and that your policies will, hopefully, bring about the 14,000 modern apprenticeships envisaged?

A gadarnhewch y bydd y cwmni menter newydd ar gyfer Dwyrain Casnewydd yn cynnwys safle gwaith dur Llanwern, ac y bydd eich polisïau, gobeithio, yn creu’r 14,000 o brentisiaethau modern a ragwelwyd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

That is our aim. Before it becomes a reality, the urban regeneration company requires a designation order. Officials from Newport County Borough Council and the Welsh Development Agency are currently working on this. We will then have to prepare a designation order, which I believe will come as secondary legislation to the Assembly.

Dyna yw ein nod. Cyn iddo gael ei wireddu, mae angen gorchymyn enwebu ar y cwmni adfywio dinesig. Mae swyddogion o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn gweithio ar hyn yn awr. Yna bydd yn rhaid inni baratoi gorchymyn enwebu, a ddaw gerbron y Cynulliad fel is-ddeddfwriaeth, fe gredaf.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 10

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will you commend the Department of Trade and Industry and the European Union in making a formal complaint to the World Trade Organisation about the United States of America’s announcement of penal tariffs on steel imports? That will take time. Therefore, in the meantime, will you continue to press upon Patricia Hewitt to meet trade ministers from across Europe in order that collective action can be taken to prevent steel which would have gone to the USA being dumped in the UK and Europe?

A wnewch chi gymeradwyo’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd am wneud cwyn ffurfiol i Gorff Masnachu’r Byd ynghylch cyhoeddiad Unol Daleithiau America ar dollau cosbi ar ddur a gaiff ei fewnforio? Bydd hynny’n cymryd amser. Felly, yn y cyfamser, a barhewch i bwyso ar Patricia Hewitt i gwrdd â gweinidogion masnach o bob rhan o Ewrop er mwyn cymryd camau ar y cyd i atal dur a fyddai wedi mynd i UDA wedi rhag cael ei adael yn y DU ac yn Ewrop?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

It is my understanding that when a major country places penal tariffs—of 30 per cent in this case—on goods such as steel, which are liable to cause a surge of imports to other parts of the world where such tariffs do not exist, the diverted goods can have temporary anti-surge tariffs placed upon them within WTO rules. Therefore, the short-term solution is the WTO anti-surge device, which I understand is not difficult to obtain. The case against the USA is probably going to take about two years, but the anti-surge device needs to be in place well before that. I believe that that can be done within a few months.

Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf i, pan fydd gwlad fawr yn gosod tollau cosbi—o 30 y cant yn yr achos hwn—ar nwyddau fel dur, sy’n debygol o achosi llif o fewnforion i rannau eraill o’r byd lle nad oes tollau o’r fath yn bodoli, gellir codi tollau gwrth-lif dros dro ar y mewnforion hynny yn unol â rheolau Corff Masnachu’r Byd. Felly, yr ateb tymor byr yw dyfais gwrth-lif y corff, a deallaf nad yw’n anodd ei chael. Mae’n debyg y bydd yr achos yn erbyn UDA yn cymryd tua dwy flynedd, ond mae angen i’r ddyfais gwrth-lif fod wedi’i sefydlu ymhell cyn hynny. Credaf y gellir gwneud hynny o fewn ychydig fisoedd.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 11

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council received a welcome court ruling yesterday, which means that the people of Merthyr Tydfil will not have to face an election. Can you tell me what effect yesterday’s decision will have on other councils and councillors who have not yet signed the declaration? If you cannot, will you ask the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities to make a statement clarifying this situation?

Rhoddodd Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Merthyr Tudful groeso i orchymyn llys ddoe sy’n golygu na fydd rhaid i bobl Merthyr Tudful wynebu etholiad. A allwch ddweud wrthyf pa effeithiau a gaiff penderfyniad ddoe ar gynghorau a chynghorwyr eraill nad ydynt wedi llofnodi’r datganiad eto? Os na allwch ddweud, a ofynnwch i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau i wneud datganiad i egluro’r sefyllfa hon?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

It will act as a dire warning, Brian.

Bydd yn gweithredu fel rhybudd llym, Brian.

Y Comisiwn Annibynol ar Bwerau’r Cynulliad

The Independent Commission on Assembly Powers

Q5 Peter Black spoken in English p. 11

C5 Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

What decisions have been made with regards to the membership of the independent commission on the Assembly powers referred to in the partnership agreement? (OAQ16199)

Pa benderfyniadau a wnaed ynghylch aelodaeth y comisiwn annibynnol ar bwerau’r Cynulliad y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn y cytundeb partneriaeth? (OAQ16199)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I have not made a decision on the membership of the independent commission. The first step is to appoint a chair of the commission. I cannot make an announcement on that today, but the method of selection and appointment is being considered.

Nid wyf wedi penderfynu ar aelodaeth y comisiwn annibynnol. Y cam cyntaf yw penodi cadeirydd i’r comisiwn. Ni allaf wneud datganiad ar hynny heddiw, ond mae’r dull o ddethol a phenodi’n cael ei ystyried.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 11

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Would you consider appointing some of the commission’s members through public advertisements and the public appointments procedure?

A fyddech yn ystyried penodi rhai o aelodau’r comisiwn drwy hysbysebion cyhoeddus a’r weithdrefn ar gyfer penodiadau cyhoeddus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

That is under consideration. It may be a mixed solution; it may be done by appointment, or it may be done via the public appointments procedure. We are not obliged to use that procedure, as this is not the board of a quango. However, there is no reason why that procedure should not cover at least part of the membership, and that is currently under consideration.

Mae hynny’n cael ei ystyried. Gallai fod yn ateb cymysg; gellir ei wneud drwy benodi, neu gellir ei wneud drwy’r weithdrefn ar gyfer penodiadau cyhoeddus. Nid oes rheidrwydd arnom i ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn honno, gan nad yw’n fwrdd cwango. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na ddylai’r weithdrefn honno gael ei defnyddio ar gyfer o leiaf rhan o’r aelodaeth, ac mae hynny’n cael ei ystyried ar hyn o bryd.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 12

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The coalition agreement says that the independent commission will consider the Assembly’s powers. Do you agree that a debate about primary powers for the Assembly would polarise opinion and would be divisive? The independent commission should consider how Governments in Westminster and in Wales can find ways of extending the range of secondary legislation dealt with here, increasing the Assembly’s influence.

Dywed cytundeb y glymblaid y bydd y comisiwn annibynnol yn ystyried pwerau’r Cynulliad. A gytunwch y byddai dadl ar bwerau sylfaenol y Cynulliad yn hollti barn ac y byddai’n peri rhwyg? Dylai’r comisiwn annibynnol ystyried sut y gall y Llywodraethau yn San Steffan ac yng Nghymru ganfod ffyrdd o ehangu ystod yr is-ddeddfwriaeth yr ymdrinnir â hi yma a chynyddu dylanwad y Cynulliad.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

It will be for the independent commission to decide what it considers to be the right solution. I do not want to prejudge the outcome. There is no point in getting high-powered people to sit on an independent commission if you then tell them what the outcome of their study should be. Your view is interesting, Glyn. There are a variety of views across most parties on this issue. The issue can only be determined by primary legislation, and as we do not have that power, that must be done at Westminster. If this is considered to be a major issue, it will need to be in party manifestos for the next general election in 2005 or 2006.

Lle’r comisiwn annibynnol fydd penderfynu beth yw’r ateb cywir. Nid wyf am ddylanwadu ar y canlyniad. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt mewn cael pobl â llawer o bŵer i eistedd ar y comisiwn annibynnol os dywedwch wrthynt wedyn beth ddylai canlyniad eu hastudiaeth fod. Mae eich barn yn ddiddorol, Glyn. Mae’r farn ar hyn yn amrywio ar draws y rhan fwyaf o bleidiau. Dim ond drwy ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol y gellir penderfynu ar y mater hwn, a chan nad oes gennym y pŵer hwnnw, rhaid iddo gael ei wneud yn San Steffan. Os ystyrir bod hwn yn fater pwysig, bydd angen iddo fod ym maniffestos y pleidiau ar gyfer yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf yn 2005 neu 2006.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 12

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I have confidence in the political judgment of the Welsh nation but, if middle England were to return a Conservative Government in 2009 or 2013, or maybe even in 2020, do you share my view that the current constitutional settlement would rapidly become unworkable?

Mae gennyf hyder ym marn wleidyddol pobl Cymru ond, pe byddai canolbarth Lloegr yn ethol Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn 2009 neu 2013, neu hyd yn oed yn 2020, a gytunwch na fyddai’r setliad cyfansoddiadol presennol, yn fuan wedi hynny, yn gallu gweithredu?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

This is the traed moch theory of constitutional change in Wales, I suppose. Every constitutional settlement, in the end, has to be able to survive party changes, in the Assembly and in Westminster, which leads to a situation where different parties are in control. Therefore, powers need to be clearly defined. The problem is that we do not have a written constitution tradition in Britain—nothing has been written since 1688, or perhaps since the 1707 Act of Union. It has been done mostly on a shake-hands basis, which any subsequent Westminster Government can amend. Since the Scottish Parliament and the Assemblies in Wales and Northern Ireland were approved by referendum, I guess that it would be seen as immoral to change the situation without a further referendum. That gives us some comfort. However, we may find, in 10 or 20 years’ time, that we need a written constitution as some kind of protection against the nightmare scenario to which you referred, but I am sure that the sense of the British electorate will prevent that from happening during the lifetime of anyone in this Chamber.

Dyna’r theori traed moch ynglŷn â newid cyfansoddiadol yng Nghymru, am wn i. Rhaid i bob setliad cyfansoddiadol, yn y pen draw, allu goresgyn newidiadau o ran y pleidiau, yn y Cynulliad ac yn San Steffan, sy’n arwain at sefyllfa lle mae pleidiau gwahanol mewn grym. Felly, mae angen egluro’r pwerau’n glir. Y broblem yw nad oes gennym draddodiad cyfansoddiadol ysgrifenedig ym Mhrydain—nid ysgrifennwyd unrhyw beth ers 1688, neu efallai ers Deddf Uno 1707. Gwnaed hyn yn bennaf ar sail ysgwyd llaw, a gall unrhyw Lywodraeth ddilynol yn San Steffan ddiwygio hynny. Gan fod Senedd yr Alban a’r Cynulliadau yng Nghymru a Gogledd Iwerddon wedi’u cymeradwyo drwy refferendwm, mae’n debyg y byddai’n anfoesol newid y sefyllfa heb gynnal refferendwm arall. Mae hynny’n rhoi rhyw fath o gysur inni. Fodd bynnag, efallai y gwelwn, mewn 10 neu 20 mlynedd, bod angen cyfansoddiad ysgrifenedig fel rhyw fath o amddiffynfa rhag y sefyllfa erchyll y cyfeiriasoch ati, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd synnwyr etholwyr Prydain yn atal hynny rhag digwydd yn ystod oes unrhyw un yn y Siambr hwn.

Cyfarfodydd â Consignia

Meetings with Consignia

C6 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Q6 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

Pa ganlyniad cadarnhaol a ddeilliodd o gyfarfodydd diweddar Prif Weinidog Cymru â Consignia? (OAQ16184)

What positive outcome followed the First Minister’s recent meetings with Consignia? (OAQ16184)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Yr oedd y cyfarfod yn gyfle imi ddysgu gan Consignia am broblemau’r cwmni, yn enwedig yn dilyn argymhellion—nid dyfarniad—Postcomm, rheolydd newydd y gwasanaethau post. Mae’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd ers hynny yn cyd-fynd â’r diffiniad o ddigwyddiadau positif ers, nid o achos, fy nghyfarfod i â Consignia. Er enghraifft, deallwn fod pwyllgor gwaith Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu yn argymell y dylai’r aelodau dderbyn y cynnig aar gyfer codiadau cyflog dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Hefyd, mae cyfarwyddwyr Consignia wedi penderfynu peidio â derbyn unrhyw godiad cyflog—yr argymhelliad oedd codiad o 10 y cant—ac mae’n debyg y bydd Postcomm yn tynnu yn ôl rhai o’r argymhellion mwyaf eithafol pan ddaw i wneud dyfarniad terfynol fis nesaf.

The meeting was an opportunity for me to learn about Consignia’s problems, particularly following the recommendations—not the ruling—made by the new postal services regulator, Postcomm. What has occurred since then would come within the definition of positive outcomes following, not because of, my meeting with Consignia. For example, we understand that the Communication Workers Union executive recommends that its members should accept that pay offer for the next two years. Also, Consignia’s directors have decided not to accept any pay increases—the recommendation was for a 10 per cent increase—and it is likely that Postcomm, when it makes its final ruling next month, will withdraw some of the most extreme recommendations.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 14

Deallaf fod mwy a mwy o adrannau Swyddfa’r Post yn cael eu canoli y tu allan i Gymru. Er enghraifft, caiff gyflogau gweithwyr post yng Nghymru eu gweinyddu yn Sheffield, a rheolir swyddfeydd post lleol Cymru o Fryste. Mae Cymru’n genedl, a chanddi’r hawl, felly, i gael gwasanaethau post wedi eu lleoli a’u rheoli y tu mewn i ffiniau’r wlad. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod hyn yn digwydd?

I understand that more and more Post Office departments are centralised outside Wales. For example, Welsh postal workers’ salaries are administered from Sheffield, and local post offices in Wales are managed from Bristol. Wales is a nation, and therefore has a right to have postal services located and managed within its own boundaries. What steps are you taking to ensure that this happens?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw’n synhwyrol sôn am wasanaeth post cenedlaethol yng Nghymru, oherwydd credais mai’r egwyddor y mae pawb yn y Siambr yn ceisio ei hamddiffyn yw’r gallu i bostio llythyr, cerdyn post neu beth bynnag ydyw, hyd at bwysau penodol, am yr un pris ledled y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith y symudwyd gwaith o Gaerdydd i Sheffield, ac i Fryste, a gwrthwynebwn hynny. Mae’n drueni, ond digwyddodd am resymau a esboniodd Consignia yn ystod y cyfarfod a gefais gyda’r cwmni yng Nghaerdydd. Serch hynny, ymateb eithafol i’r newidiadau hynny yw dweud bod Cymru yn teilyngu gwasanaeth post ar wahân.

I am not sure whether it is wise to talk about a national postal service in Wales, because I thought that the principle that everyone in this Chamber is trying to defend is the ability to post a letter, postcard or whatever item it may be, up to a certain weight, for the same price throughout the United Kingdom. We are aware that jobs have been moved from Cardiff to Sheffield, and to Bristol, and we object to that. It is a pity, but it occurred for reasons explained by Consignia at the meeting I had with the company in Cardiff. However, it is an extreme response to these changes to say that Wales deserves a separate postal service.

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

David Davies spoken in Welsh p. 14

A ydych yn cytuno, yn hytrach na gweithredu argymhellion anymarferol Plaid Cymru, ei bod yn bwysig sicrhau na fydd newidiadau i wasanaethau post yn cael effaith andwyol ar y gwasanaethau hynny, yn caniatáu i gwmnïau tramor gymryd y busnes nac yn gorfodi costau ychwanegol, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig?

Do you agree that, rather than implementing Plaid Cymru’s impractical recommendations, it is important to ensure that changes to postal services do not have a detrimental effect on those services, allow foreign companies to take the business or impose additional costs, particularly in rural areas?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Yr wyf yn eich llongyfarch ar safon eich Cymraeg, David—daliwch ati i ymarfer.

I congratulate you on the standard of your Welsh, David—keep up the good work.

Derbyniaf sail a manylion eich cwestiwn. Byddai’r effaith yng Nghymru wledig bron cynddrwg â’r effaith yn Ucheldiroedd yr Alban. Dyna’r ddwy ardal, fel y cyfryw, a fyddai’n dioddef o ganlyniad i gostau gwahaniaethol yn debyg i’r hyn a welwyd yn Sweden yn ddiweddar. Wrth i ‘gystadleuaeth’ ddod yn rhan o wasanaethau post Sweden, disgynnodd y gost mewn ardaloedd trefol a chynyddodd mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

I accept the basis and detail of your question. The effect in rural Wales would be almost as serious as the effect in the Scottish Highlands. Those are the two areas, as such, that would suffer as a result of differential prices such as those witnessed in Sweden recently. As ‘competition’ was introduced into Sweden’s postal services, the cost fell in urban areas while it increased in rural areas.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 15

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 7 (OAQ16207) yn ôl.

Question 7 (OAQ16207) has been withdrawn.

Canolfan Ymwelwyr BHP Billiton yn Llanasa

BHP Billiton’s Visitor Centre in Talacre

Q8 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 15

C8 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Will the First Minister make a statement on his visit to BHP Billiton’s visitor centre in Talacre, in my constituency? (OAQ16196)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ei ymweliad â chanolfan ymwelwyr BHP Billiton yn Llanasa, yn fy etholaeth? (OAQ16196)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I visited BHP Billiton’s visitor and processing centre in Talacre, and flew, by helicopter, over the Douglas oilfield where its platform and support vessels are located. One of the happiest possibilities we discussed during the visit—and you cannot have known this unless you have 20/20 foresight, Alison—has come into being this morning. The company has announced the transfer of most of its head office employees from London to your constituency, and, in addition, some 85 additional high-class office jobs will now be relocated in north Wales.

Ymwelais â chanolfan ymwelwyr a phrosesu BHP Billiton yn Llanasa, ac euthum ar daith mewn hofrennydd dros faes olew Douglas lle y lleolir ei lwyfan a’i longau cymorth. Gwireddwyd un o’r posibiliadau hapusaf a drafodwyd yn ystod yr ymweliad—ac ni allwch fod yn gwybod hyn oni bai y gallwch weld yn berffaith i’r dyfodol, Alison—y bore yma. Mae’r cwmni wedi datgan ei fod yn trosglwyddo’r rhan fwyaf o gyflogeion ei brif swyddfa o Lundain i’ch etholaeth, ac, yn ogystal, caiff tua 85 o uwch swyddi ychwanegol mewn swyddfeydd eu hail-leoli yn y Gogledd.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 15

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I had 19/20 foresight, First Minister. You and your team should be congratulated if you had anything to do with—and I am sure that you did—this excellent piece of news. I congratulate you on it and north Wales welcomes it.

Ni allwn weld yn gwbl berffaith i’r dyfodol, Brif Weinidog. Dylid eich llongyfarch chi a’ch tîm os oedd gennych ran—ac yr wyf yn siŵr yr oedd—yn y darn o newyddion rhagorol hwn. Fe’ch llongyfarchaf arno ac mae’r Gogledd yn ei groesawu.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

There are many steps to be taken in moving towards the knowledge economy, and this is an important step on the way. The 85 head office-type jobs, of which Wales is so short—with the pay, earning ability, and spending power that they bring with them to the area—add to what has happened in Ewloe with Unilever, and in Degannwy with Robertson Research International Ltd, which has been there for some time. These are high-class employers in north Wales, and more will come if we promote the virtues of Wales. We must be able to make advertising use of the fact that a major international and multinational resource company, such as BHP Billiton, which has an Australian and Dutch background, has decided to put the bulk of its UK head office in north Wales—if it is good enough for BHP Billiton, it could be good enough for your company.

Mae llawer o gamau i’w cymryd wrth symud tuag at yr economi wybodaeth, ac mae hyn yn gam pwysig ar y ffordd. Mae’r 85 o swyddi prif swyddfa, y mae Cymru mor brin ohonynt—gyda’r tâl, y gallu i ennill, a’r pŵer i wario y maent yn ei gyflwyno i’r ardal—yn ychwanegu at yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Ewloe gydag Unilever, ac yn Neganwy gyda Robertson Research International Ltd, a fu yno am beth amser. Mae’r rhain yn gyflogwyr swyddi o’r radd flaenaf yn y Gogledd, a daw mwy ohonynt os byddwn yn hyrwyddo rhinweddau Cymru. Rhaid inni allu gwneud defnydd hysbysebu o’r ffaith bod cwmni adnoddau mawr rhyngwladol ac amlwladol, fel BHP Billiton, â chefndir yn Awstralia a’r Iseldiroedd, wedi penderfynu lleoli mwyafrif o’i brif swyddfa yn y DU yn y Gogledd—os yw’n ddigon da i BHP Billiton, gallai fod yn ddigon da i’ch cwmni chi.

Effeithiau yr Ewro ar Gymru

Effects of the Euro on Wales

Q9 John Griffiths spoken in English p. 16

C9 John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

What role will the Assembly play in ensuring that the practical effects on Wales of the euro are monitored and addressed? (OAQ16194)

Pa rôl y bydd y Cynulliad yn ei chwarae wrth sicrhau bod effeithiau ymarferol yr ewro ar Gymru yn cael eu monitro ac yr eir i’r afael â’r effeithiau? (OAQ16194)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

The euro has now been smoothly introduced into the intended countries, but the side effects on the UK and its business sector will manifest themselves gradually and subtly. Vast numbers of Irish punters visited Cheltenham, and spent the day in Chepstow on Saturday, getting themselves warmed-up for Cheltenham, at a special Irish day event there. I am sure that the bulk of Chepstow’s betting shops and on-course betting facilities, hotels, and so on, felt the benefit of those euros flowing through their veins, like a blood transfusion in the area, and I am sure that Cheltenham will also feel this benefit.

Mae’r ewro bellach wedi’i chyflwyno’n ddi-drafferth i’r gwledydd a fwriadwyd, ond bydd y sgîl-effeithiau ar y DU a’i sector busnes yn ymddangos yn raddol ac yn gynnil. Ymwelodd nifer helaeth o Wyddelod â Cheltenham, a threulio’r diwrnod yng Nghas-gwent ddydd Sadwrn, yn paratoi eu hunain ar gyfer Cheltenham, mewn gŵyl Wyddelig arbennig yno. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y rhan fwyaf o’r siopau betio, cyfleusterau betio ar y cwrs, gwestai, ac ati, yng Nghas-gwent wedi elwa o gael yr ewros hynny’n llifo drwy eu gwythiennau, fel trallwysiad gwaed i’r ardal, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Cheltenham hefyd yn elwa ar hyn.

I opened the new Faurecia factory on Deeside on Friday, and a member of the company’s top brass mentioned that it would be more convenient and more conducive to manufacturing investment for multinational companies, such as Faurecia, if Britain were to enter the euro. However, that decision must be taken carefully, and following a referendum.

Agorais y ffatri Faurecia newydd ar Lannau Dyfrdwy ddydd Gwener, a soniodd un o brif aelodau’r cwmni y byddai’n fwy cyfleus ac yn fwy ffafriol i fuddsoddiadau gweithgynhyrchu ar gyfer cwmnïau rhyngwladol, fel Faurecia, pe bai Prydain yn derbyn yr ewro. Fodd bynnag, rhaid gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw’n ofalus, ac ar ôl cynnal refferendwm.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 16

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Do you consider that it might be appropriate for the Assembly’s Committee on European and External Affairs to consider the practical effects on Wales of the introduction and circulation of euro notes and coins into the eurozone, and could it produce a report on this?

A ystyriwch y gallai fod yn briodol i Bwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol y Cynulliad ystyried yr effeithiau ymarferol ar Gymru o gyflwyno a dosbarthu papurau a darnau arian yr ewro i ardal yr ewro, ac a allai lunio adroddiad ar hyn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Can I put that to the Committee on European and External Affairs? Although I chair the Committee I do not take decisions in this way. If there is a meeting next week, we can inquire if the Committee would agree to putting that matter on its agenda, or a future agenda.

A allaf gyflwyno hynny i’r Pwyllgor ar Faterion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol? Er fy mod yn cadeirio’r Pwyllgor ni wnaf benderfyniadau yn y ffordd hon. Os oes cyfarfod yr wythnos nesaf, gallwn holi a fyddai’r Pwyllgor yn cytuno i roi’r mater hwnnw ar ei agenda, neu ar agenda yn y dyfodol.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 17

A wnewch roi datganiad clir heddiw y byddwch chi, yn bersonol, yn cefnogi mynediad Cymru i ardal yr ewro mor fuan ag sy’n ymarferol? Tybiaf mai hynny yr ydych yn ei argymell. A wnewch hefyd chwilio am gyfle i drefnu arolwg o effaith yr ewro ar y diwydiant twristiaeth, efallai yn yr hydref eleni, i weld pa wersi y gellir eu dysgu, a pha gymorth y gellid ei roi i’r diwydiant ar gyfer y dyfodol?

Will you make a clear statement today that you will personally support Wales’s entry to the eurozone as soon as it is practically possible? I believe that that is what you recommend. Will you also seek an opportunity to arrange a review of the effect of the euro on the tourism industry, perhaps in the autumn of this year, to see what lessons can be learnt, and what help can be given to the industry for the future?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 17

Ar ail hanner eich cwestiwn, sef beth yw effaith yr ewro ar y diwydiant twristiaeth, hyd y deallwn, erbyn diwedd prif dymor twristiaeth Cymru—mae gogledd-orllewin a de-orllewin Cymru yn dibynnu ar dwristiaid o Iwerddon, ac mae Eryri yn dibynnu ar bobl o’r Iseldiroedd sydd yn ymweld â’r mynyddoedd, er enghraifft—byddwn yn fodlon cynnal rhyw fath o astudiaeth erbyn yr hydref i adolygu’r tymor cyntaf ers cyflwyno’r ewro. Ar ran gyntaf eich cwestiwn, sydd yn fater o egwyddor, y cwestiwn yw, pryd y bydd yr ymgyrch yn dechrau?

On the second part of your question, namely, the effect of the euro, as far as we understand, on the tourism industry by the end of the main tourist season in Wales—north-west and south-west Wales rely on Irish tourists, and Snowdonia relies on people from the Netherlands visiting the mountains, for example—I would be happy to conduct some sort of study by the autumn to review the first season since the introduction of the euro. On the first part of your question, which is a matter of principle, the question is, when will the campaign begin?

Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n bod hyd nes y cawn wybod bod y Llywodraeth wedi pennu dyddiad y refferendwm. Hefyd, ceir ymgyrch cyn hynny, os mynner, sy’n seiliedig ar y profion economaidd a sut yr ydym yn delio â’r mater hwn yn y cyfamser. Serch hynny, rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol bob amser nad mater inni ydyw; mater i San Steffan ydyw ac yna i’r bobl drwy refferendwm.

That question exists until we are informed that the Government has set a date for the referendum. Also, there is the matter of the campaign before that, if you like, based on the economic tests and how we deal with that issue in the meantime. However, we must be aware at all times that it is not a matter for us; it is a matter for Westminster and then for the people through a referendum.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 17

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

At the last meeting of the Committee on European and External Affairs, you told us that, in your opinion, French rugby supporters at the last Wales-France international might have found it difficult that they could not spend their euros on arrival in Cardiff. Have you undertaken any research into how our French colleagues spent their time in Cardiff, and whether they did find it difficult? Or, do you agree that people visiting other nations have a vague idea of what currency they should be spending?

Yng nghyfarfod diwethaf y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol, dywedasoch wrthym eich bod o’r gred efallai fod cefnogwyr rygbi Ffrainc wedi cael trafferthion yn y gêm ryngwladol Cymru-Ffrainc ddiwethaf oherwydd na allent wario eu ewros wedi cyrraedd Caerdydd. Ydych chi wedi gwneud unrhyw waith ymchwil i weld sut y treuliodd ein cyfeillion o Ffrainc eu hamser yng Nghaerdydd, ac a gawsant anawsterau? Neu, a gytunwch fod gan bobl sy’n ymweld â gwledydd eraill ryw fath o syniad o ba arian y dylent fod yn ei wario?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

There were no punch-ups, as I understand. However, I also said that it was an opportunity for businesses such as restaurants, clubs, pubs, taxis, and so on, to show that euros are accepted here. I understand that such small businesses in Cardiff did exactly that. Whether they gained much additional trade from that, I do not know. However, that is a matter that I will discuss with the Cardiff Chamber of Commerce.

Ni fu unrhyw ymladd, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf. Fodd bynnag, dywedais hefyd ei fod yn gyfle i fusnesau fel bwytai, clybiau, tafarndai, tacsis, ac ati, i ddangos bod ewros yn cael eu derbyn yma. Deallaf fod busnesau bach o’r fath yng Nghaerdydd wedi gwneud hynny. Ni wn a wnaethant ennill llawer mwy o fasnach ychwanegol oherwydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n fater y byddaf yn ei drafod gyda Siambr Fasnach Caerdydd.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 18

A gytunwch y byddai cyflwyno’r ewro i Gymru yn ychwanegu at y traed moch sydd yn bodoli eisoes? A gytunwch nad oes rhaid inni aros tan 2009 i gael traed moch o wlad gan ei bod yn draed moch yn barod? Mae trafnidiaeth yn draed moch, a’r gwasanaeth iechyd, y swyddfa bost, a’r twll yn y ddaear y tu allan i’n drws. Mae’n draed moch yn Abertawe lle mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn rhoi arian i’r gerddorfa siambr. Mae’n draed moch nad yw’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn barod i ateb cwestiynau ynglŷn â chelwyddau honedig. Mae’r ffordd yr ydych yn rhedeg Llywodraeth Cymru yn draed moch. Nid oes yn rhaid aros tan 2009; mae’n draed moch arnom yn barod. A gytunwch?

Do you agree that the introduction of the euro in Wales would add to the shambles that exists already? Do you agree that we need not wait until 2009 to have a shambolic country because it is a shambles already? Transport is shambolic, as is the health service, the post office, and the hole in the ground outside our door. It is a shambles in Swansea where the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities gives money to the chamber orchestra. It is a shambles that the Minister for Economic Development is not prepared to answer questions on alleged untruths. The manner in which you run the Government of Wales is shambolic. We do not need to wait for 2009; we are in a shambles already. Do you agree?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18

Efallai na synnwch na chytunaf o gwbl. Ni welaf berthnasedd y rhestr drist honno am wleidyddiaeth Cymru yn eich barn chi yn ystod eich blwyddyn olaf yn y Cynulliad. Beth yw’r berthynas rhwng y rhestr honno a’r cwestiwn ar yr effaith ar Gymru o gyflwyno yr ewro’n llwyddiannus—yn ddi-draed moch—yn y gwledydd sydd wedi dewis y trywydd hwnnw? Y cwestiwn inni yw: a ydym ni am ddilyn yr un trywydd ai peidio?

You will perhaps not be surprised that I do not agree at all. I do not see the relevance of that sad list of how you perceive Welsh politics in your last year in the Assembly. What is the relationship between that list and the question of the effect on Wales of the successful introduction of the euro—shambles free—in those countries that have chosen that path? The question for us is: do we wish to follow the same path or not?

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 18

Pwynt o drefn.

Point of order.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 18

Derbyniaf bwyntiau o drefn ar ôl y cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru.

I will take points of order following questions to the First Minister.

Blaenoriaethau’r Cabinet

Cabinet Priorities

Q10 Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 18

C10 Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will the First Minister make a statement on the priorities of his Cabinet up until the next Assembly elections in 2003? (OAQ16204)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar flaenoriaethau ei Gabinet hyd at etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad yn 2003? (OAQ16204)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

They are, broadly, the improvement of our public services in schools and hospitals, and delivering the fresh vision for the future of the economy, focusing on the knowledge-based economy, and improving the environment in Wales.

Y blaenoriaethau, yn gyffredinol, yw gwella ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mewn ysgolion ac ysbytai, a darparu’r weledigaeth newydd ar gyfer dyfodol yr economi, gan ganolbwyntio ar yr economi sy’n seiliedig ar wybodaeth, a gwella’r amgylchedd yng Nghymru.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 19

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Can you tell us whether you intended to make it a priority in the run-up to the 2003 elections to attack the press when you are under pressure? During an interview—[Interuption.]

A allwch chi ddweud wrthym a ydych yn bwriadu ei gwneud yn flaenoriaeth yn y cyfnod cyn etholiadau 2003 i feirniadu’r wasg pan fyddwch o dan bwysau? Yn ystod cyfweliad—[Torri ar draws.]

This is a serious question, First Minister. I hope that you will treat it as such. In an interview in the Welsh Mirror last week, you launched an astonishing attack on BBC Wales’s integrity and impartiality. In that interview, you refer to

Mae hwn yn gwestiwn difrifol, Brif Weinidog. Gobeithio y byddwch yn ei drin felly. Mewn cyfweliad yn y Welsh Mirror yr wythnos diwethaf, lansiwyd ymosodiadau rhyfeddol gennych ar onestrwydd a natur ddi-duedd BBC Cymru. Yn y cyfweliad hwnnw, cyfeiriasoch at

‘the sort of scalp-hunting psychology there at the moment’.

To avoid misunderstanding, do you hold that view as expressed in the Welsh Mirror, or do want to revise it in any way today?

I osgoi camddealltwriaeth, a ydych yn parhau i gredu’r hyn a ddatganwyd yn y Welsh Mirror, neu a ydych am newid y geiriau mewn unrhyw ffordd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Of course not, I said it last week and I hold that view. I do not see what it has to do with the Cabinet’s priorities until the next Assembly elections. You should try to make your questions more relevant to the Assembly’s proceedings.

Wrth gwrs nad wyf am wneud hynny, dywedais hynny yr wythnos diwethaf ac yr wyf yn parhau i fod o’r farn honno. Ni welaf beth sydd a wnelo hynny â blaenoriaethau’r Cabinet tan etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad. Dylech geisio gwneud eich cwestiynau’n fwy perthnasol i drafodion y Cynulliad.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 19

Mae’n fater difrifol pan fo Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gweithredu fel hyn yn erbyn BBC Cymru. Mae’n bwysig i bobl Cymru wybod beth yw eich safbwynt.

It is a serious matter when the First Minister takes such action against BBC Wales. It is important that the people of Wales know where you stand on this.

Yr ydych hefyd yn gyfrifol am weithredoedd aelodau eich Cabinet hyd at 2003. Gwrthododd y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wneud datganiad ar ei weithredoedd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Iau diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn barod i roi cyfweliad llawn i’r Welsh Mirror ddydd Gwener. Onid yw hynny’n dangos dirmyg tuag at y Cynulliad? Pam nad ofynnwch iddo ddod i’r Cyfarfod Llawn i ateb cwestiynau Aelodau etholedig Cymru?

You are also responsible for the actions of your Cabinet members until 2003. The Minister for Economic Development refused to make a statement on his actions in Plenary last Thursday. However, he was willing to give a full interview to the Welsh Mirror on Friday. Does that not show contempt for the Assembly? Why will you not ask him to come to Plenary to answer the questions of Wales’s elected Members?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20

Mae’r cwestiwn yn ymwneud â blaenoriaethau’r Cabinet hyd at yr etholiadau nesaf. Yr ydych yn sôn am ddirmyg tuag at y Cynulliad. Yr unig ddirmyg a welaf yw na allwch ofyn cwestiwn am bolisïau’r Llywodraeth. A ydych, felly, yn derbyn bod ein blaenoriaethau yn gywir? Yr unig fater y gallwch holi yn ei gylch yw cyfweliadau i’r wasg gan aelodau o’r Llywodraeth. Yr ydych yn gwybod bod aelodau o weinyddiaethau ar draws y byd yn rhoi cyfweliadau i’r wasg. Os nad ydych yn hapus â’r hyn sydd yn y wasg, dylech roi cyfweliadau eich hun, Ieuan. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r wasg yn fodlon gwrando ar eich syniadau.

The question involves the Cabinet’s priorities until the next elections. You mentioned contempt for the Assembly. The only contempt that I can see is that you cannot ask a question about the Government’s policies. Do you, therefore, accept that our priorities are right? The only issue that you can ask about is press interviews by members of the Government. You know that members of administrations all over the world give press interviews. If you are unhappy with what is reported in the press, you should give your own interviews, Ieuan. I am sure that the press would be willing to listen to your ideas.

Nid oes a wnelo hyn â blaenoriaethau’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn y Cynulliad. Yr wyf wedi nodi’r blaenoriaethau hynny. Yr wyf yn cymryd yn ganiataol bod Plaid Cymru yn cytuno â hwy.

This has nothing to do with the priorities of the Labour Government in the Assembly. I have noted those priorities. I assume that Plaid Cymru agrees with them.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 20

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

In the run-up to the elections, the administration must surely prioritise establishing the probity and competence of an Assembly Government. During the last six weeks, we have seen the suppression of an adjudication report which Members were rightly entitled to see; questions being asked about the funding of an orchestra, which was announced by the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities and of which the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language appeared unaware, although she has since backtracked on that; allegations of Ministers using ministerial notepaper to push constituents’ cases; and, above all—[Interruption.]. It was the Minister for Health and Social Services, if you are unaware of it.

Yn y cyfnod cyn yr etholiadau, oni ddylai’r weinyddiaeth roi blaenoriaeth i sefydlu gonestrwydd a chymhwyster Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yn ystod y chwe wythnos diwethaf, gwelwyd adroddiad dyfarnu yr oedd gan Aelodau hawl i’w weld yn cael ei atal; cwestiynau yn cael eu gofyn ynghylch ariannu cerddorfa, a gyhoeddwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ac yr ymddengys nad oedd y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Iaith Gymraeg yn ymwybodol ohonynt, er ei bod wedi ailfeddwl ers hynny; honiadau bod Gweinidogion yn defnyddio papur pennawd gweinidogol i wthio achosion etholwyr; ac yn bennaf oll—[Torri ar draws.]. Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol oedd hwnnw, os na wyddoch.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That is not so.

Nid yw hynny’n wir.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 20

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

The allegations certainly exist, as you are well aware. You are in a position to answer some of those allegations, but I noticed that you failed to do so just now. I will refresh your memory as to what you said about Andrew Davies, yourself and the Cabinet knowing about the police investigation into the former Deputy First Minister. You said that you would let me know in writing if your recollection that only you and Jenny Randerson knew about the contact was incorrect. You subsequently told the Welsh Mirror that Andrew Davies knew. Despite having sent a letter to you immediately after questions last Tuesday, I have received no correspondence from you. It is all very well to try to pretend that other people use the press; you use it as well. You attack it shamelessly, as you did the BBC, but you told the Welsh Mirror that you knew that Andrew Davies was aware of the police investigation. Who else in the Cabinet knew about it? Will you now give us a full list?

Mae’n wir bod yr honiadau’n bodoli, fel y gwyddoch. Yr ydych mewn sefyllfa i ateb rhai o’r honiadau, ond sylwais i chi fethu â gwneud hynny yn awr. Fe’ch atgoffaf o’r hyn a ddywedasoch ynghylch Andrew Davies, chithau a’r Cabinet yn gwybod am ymchwiliad yr heddlu i’r cyn Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog. Dywedasoch y byddech yn rhoi gwybod imi yn ysgrifenedig pe bai eich atgof mai dim ond chi a Jenny Randerson a wyddai am y cyswllt yn anghywir. O ganlyniad dywedasoch wrth y Welsh Mirror bod Andrew Davies yn gwybod. Er imi anfon llythyr atoch yn syth ar ôl cwestiynau ddydd Mawrth diwethaf, ni dderbyniais unrhyw ohebiaeth gennych. Mae’n ddigon hawdd ceisio esgus bod pobl eraill yn defnyddio’r wasg; yr ydych chi’n ei defnyddio hefyd. Yr ydych yn ei beirniadu heb gywilydd, fel y gwnaethoch i’r BBC, ond dywedasoch wrth y Welsh Mirror eich bod yn gwybod bod Andrew Davies yn ymwybodol o ymchwiliad yr heddlu. Pwy arall yn y Cabinet oedd yn gwybod am hyn? A gawn ni restr lawn gennych yn awr?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The note, which I promised to send you if I felt that further clarification was required, is being considered. I am sorry if it disappoints you, given your status as leader of the Welsh Conservatives, but I intend to issue the note to you and other Assembly Members, when I am sure that it is as accurate as possible.

Mae’r nodyn yr addewais ei anfon atoch os y teimlwn fod angen eglurhad pellach yn cael ei ystyried. Ymddiheuraf os yw hyn yn eich siomi, o ystyried eich statws fel arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, ond bwriadaf anfon y nodyn atoch ac at Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad, pan fyddaf yn siŵr ei fod mor gywir â phosibl.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 21

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I would be grateful if you would make it available to all Assembly Members. You told the Welsh Mirror that you knew that the then Minister for Assembly Business knew about the investigation. This involves the integrity of your administration. You always try to shuffle-off responsibility; it is never your fault, it is always somebody else’s. When you are in a hole, you either attack the media or you pretend that other people are just trying to make political points. There is an issue here about the integrity of your administration. It is high time that you asked your Minister for Economic Development to apologise in Plenary for his misleading statement. Will you do that now?

Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech ei ddosbarthu i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Dywedasoch wrth y Welsh Mirror eich bod yn gwybod bod y Trefnydd ar y pryd yn gwybod am yr ymchwiliad. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â gonestrwydd eich gweinyddiaeth. Yr ydych o hyd yn ceisio osgoi cymryd cyfrifoldeb; nid yw byth yn fai arnoch chi, bai rhywun arall ydyw bob tro. Pan fyddwch mewn twll, byddwch naill ai’n beirniadu’r cyfryngau neu’n esgus bod pobl eraill yn ceisio gwneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Mater ynghylch gonestrwydd eich gweinyddiaeth sydd yma. Mae’n hen bryd ichi ofyn i’ch Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ymddiheuro yn y Cyfarfod Llawn am ei ddatganiad camarweiniol. A wnewch chi hynny yn awr?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

This matter was addressed in the Business Committee meeting this morning—

Ymdriniwyd â’r mater hwn yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 21

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

No, it was not.

Naddo, ni wnaed hynny.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

You should ask the Member who represents your party on that Committee. Perhaps you have two Conservative parties in the Assembly; you send one to the Business Committee and then deny its existence. I understand that the matter was put to the Business Committee. A desultory request was made, but it was put to bed effectively—for reasons which I do not want to explain now—by Carwyn Jones. There was no follow-up. If that was not reported back to you, I suggest that you get a new Business Manager.

Dylech ofyn i’r Aelod sy’n cynrychioli eich plaid ar y Pwyllgor hwnnw. Efallai fod gennych ddwy blaid Geidwadol yn y Cynulliad; byddwch yn anfon un i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ac yna’n gwadu ei fodolaeth. Deallaf y cyflwynwyd y mater hwn gerbron y Pwyllgor Busnes. Gwnaed cais digyswllt, ond cafodd hyn ei ddatrys yn effeithiol—am resymau na hoffwn eu hesbonio yn awr—gan Carwyn Jones. Ni chafwyd unrhyw ddilyniant. Os na chafodd hynny ei adrodd yn ôl i chi, awgrymaf eich bod yn cael Rheolwr Busnes newydd.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 22

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It was, and it is being raised now.

Cafodd ei adrodd, ac mae’n cael ei godi yn awr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Order. Before we get too excited, I remind Members that the Business Committee performs an important function in the Assembly, and performs it in private. I think that we have had enough now.

Trefn. Cyn inni gyffroi gormod, hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau bod y Pwyllgor Busnes yn cyflawni swyddogaeth bwysig yn y Cynulliad, ac yn ei gyflawni yn breifat. Credaf ein bod wedi cael digon yn awr.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 22

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Point of order. The First Minister may have inadvertently misled Assembly Members, and the wider electorate, when he declared that this would be my last year in the Assembly. That is wishful thinking on his part, and may be wishful thinking on the part of some polka-dot pinkos in front of me. I have not made an announcement on my future. Will the First Minister kindly correct the definitive statement that he made? I seek your guidance on that, Llywydd.

Pwynt o drefn.Mae’n bosibl bod y Prif Weinidog drwy amryfusedd wedi camarwain Aelodau’r Cynulliad, a’r etholaeth ehangach, pan gyhoeddodd mai hon fyddai fy mlwyddyn olaf yn y Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n dangos efallai beth y carai ei weld yn digwydd, ac efallai yr hyn a garai rhai o’r polka-dot pinkos sydd o’m blaen ei weld yn digwydd. Nid wyf wedi gwneud datganiad ar fy nyfodol. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog gywiro’r datganiad clir a wnaeth? Gofynnaf am eich cyfarwyddwyd ar hyn Lywydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I was under the impression, as we are on fixed terms, that this was the last year for all of us.

Yr oeddwn o dan yr argraff, gan ein bod yn dilyn tymhorau penodol, mai hon oedd blwyddyn olaf pawb.

Datganiad ar Hiliaeth mewn Chwaraeon

Statement on Racism in Sport

Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 22

Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Following John Griffiths’s point of order in Plenary on 7 March 2002, I agreed to make a statement about the alleged racist incident in the recent Principality Cup match between Bonymaen Rugby Football Club and Newport Rugby Football Club. Let us be clear from the outset—racism cannot be tolerated in any form, in any sport or at any level of sport. Any incidents of racism in sport should be treated seriously, with firm action taken against those who take part in racial abuse.

Yn dilyn pwynt o drefn John Griffiths yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 7 Mawrth 2002, cytunais i roi datganiad ar y digwyddiad hiliol honedig mewn gêm ddiweddar yng Nghwpan y Principality rhwng clwb rygbi Bonymaen a chlwb rygbi Casnewydd. Gadewch inni fod yn glir o’r dechrau—ni ellir goddef unrhyw fath o hiliaeth, mewn unrhyw chwaraeon nac ar unrhyw lefel mewn chwaraeon. Dylid trin pob digwyddiad hiliol mewn chwaraeon o ddifrif, gyda gweithredu llym yn erbyn y sawl sy’n cymryd rhan mewn cam-drin hiliol.

The Welsh Assembly Government’s policy on sport is implemented by the Sports Council for Wales. The sports council’s aims are to increase participation in sport, to raise standards, to improve facilities, and to provide technical advice and general understanding about sport and recreation. The council’s aims are pursued in close co-operation, principally with the national governing bodies of sport. The terms and conditions of grant funding provided by the Sports Council for Wales requires the positive promotion of equal opportunities. The sports council can withdraw grant funding if the terms and conditions of grant are not fulfilled.

Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru sy’n gweithredu polisi chwaraeon Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Nod y cyngor chwaraeon yw cynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n cymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon, codi safonau, gwella cyfleusterau a darparu cyngor technegol a dealltwriaeth gyffredinol am chwaraeon a hamdden. Caiff amcanion y cyngor eu hyrwyddo mewn cydweithrediad agos gyda’r cyrff rheoli chwaraeon cenedlaethol yn bennaf. Mae telerau ac amodau ariannu drwy grant a ddarperir gan Gyngor Chwaraeon Cymru yn gofyn am hyrwyddo cadarnhaol ar gyfle cyfartal. Gall y cyngor chwaraeon dynnu arian grant yn ôl os na chedwir telerau ac amodau’r grant.

On this specific case, it has been alleged that a player from the national league division one side, Bonymaen RFC, racially abused an opponent from the premier division side, Newport RFC, during a Principality Cup match on 23 February 2002. I have been informed by the Welsh Rugby Union that, contrary to media reports, Newport RFC has not yet formally complained to the union about the alleged incident. Should the union receive such a complaint, it will investigate it and will take appropriate action on the basis of its findings. The complaint would be dealt with by an investigation panel, and the union has the power to impose penalties by way of reprimand, fine, suspension or expulsion. It is my information that, as yet, the police are not involved in this matter.

Yn yr achos penodol hwn, haerir bod chwaraewr o dîm clwb rygbi Bonymaen o adran gyntaf y cynghrair cenedlaethol, wedi cam-drin chwaraewr o dîm clwb rygbi Casnewydd yn yr uwch-adran yn ystod gêm Cwpan y Principality ar 23 Chwefror 2002, a hynny ar sail hil. Rhoddwyd gwybod i mi gan Undeb Rygbi Cymru, yn wahanol i adroddiadau yn y wasg, nad yw clwb rygbi Casnewydd wedi cwyno’n ffurfiol i’r undeb am y digwyddiad honedig eto. Pe bai yr undeb yn derbyn cwyn o’r fath, bydd yn ymchwilio iddi ac yn cymryd camau priodol ar sail canlyniadau ei ymchwil. Bydd y gŵyn yn cael ei thrafod gan banel ymchwilio, ac mae gan yr undeb bŵer i ddyfarnu cosbau drwy gerydd, dirwy, gwaharddiad neu ddiarddel. Yn ôl y wybodaeth sydd gennyf nid yw’r heddlu, hyd yn hyn, yn ymwneud â’r mater hwn.

The Welsh Assembly Government is committed to ensuring that sport in Wales is accessible to everyone, regardless of race, creed or ethnic origin. We have great role models in Wales, as the portrait of Colin Jackson in the Assembly neuadd testifies. Our aim must be to encourage more people from ethnic minorities to become involved in sport, and to use it to promote racial equality. Sport in all its forms is enjoyed by millions across Wales and beyond, and is an effective way of uniting people, irrespective of their race, sex, disability or origin. It is the responsibility of the governing bodies of sport, clubs, organisations, individuals and the Welsh Assembly Government to stamp out racism from all aspects and all levels of sport in Wales. We must actively challenge and eradicate it.

Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod chwaraeon yng Nghymru ar gael i bawb, waeth beth fo’u hil, cred neu’u tarddiad ethnig. Mae gennym bobl sy’n rhoi esiampl wych yng Nghymru fel y mae llun Colin Jackson yn neuadd y Cynulliad yn tystio. Rhaid inni anelu at annog mwy o bobl o leiafrifoedd ethnig i ymhél â chwaraeon, a’u defnyddio i hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb hiliol. Mae miliynau o bobl ledled Cymru a thu hwnt yn mwynhau pob math o chwaraeon ac mae’n ffordd effeithiol i uno pobl, waeth beth fo’u hil, rhyw, anabledd neu’u tarddiad. Mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar gyrff llywodraethol chwaraeon, clybiau, sefydliadau, unigolion a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ddileu hiliaeth o bob agwedd ac ar bob lefel o chwaraeon yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni fynd ati i’w herio a’i ddileu.

Because of its profile and position in Welsh life, rugby can be a major force for good in society. Young people watch closely to see what our rugby players do, and listen carefully to what they have to say. Rugby is a powerful vehicle to take a message of tolerance and respect to a young audience.

Oherwydd ei broffil a’i safle ym mywyd Cymru, gall rygbi fod yn rym pwysig er daioni mewn cymdeithas. Mae pobl ifanc yn gwylio’n fanwl i weld beth a wna chwaraewyr rygbi, ac yn gwrando’n astud ar yr hyn a ddywedir ganddynt. Mae Rygbi yn gyfrwng pwerus i gyfleu neges goddefgarwch a pharch i bobl ifanc.

Football is attempting to set a positive example to the rest of society by taking firm action to tackle racism and using its potential to educate and create a better society. Other sports, including rugby, can learn a great deal from the work being done in football to eradicate racism within the game. In the light of this recent incident, I will be asking my officials to consider, with the Sports Council for Wales and the Commission for Racial Equality, the scope for better utilising sport to promote racial equality.

Ymdrecha pêl-droed osod esiampl i weddill cymdeithas drwy gymryd camau pendant i fynd i’r afael â hiliaeth a defnyddio’i botensial i addysgu a chreu gwell cymdeithas. Mae chwaraeon eraill, gan gynnwys rygbi, yn gallu dysgu llawer o’r gwaith a wneir mewn pêl-droed i ddileu hiliaeth yn y gêm. Yn wyneb y digwyddiad diweddar hwn, byddaf yn gofyn i’m swyddogion ystyried gyda Chyngor Chwaraeon Cymru a’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol, y posibiliadau ar gyfer ddefnyddio chwaraeon yn well i hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb hiliol.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 24

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I am proud of the contribution that sportspeople of many and varied backgrounds have made to Wales over the years. Sixty or 70 years ago, people from ethnic backgrounds were representing Wales and making a name for Wales here and throughout the world. They have enhanced Wales’s international standing. I am therefore concerned about the incident in the match at Bonymaen. However, we need to review this matter in the general context of racism in sport. I therefore welcome your decision to arrange discussions with the Sports Council for Wales and the Commission for Racial Equality with a view to promoting racial equality in sport throughout Wales. I will be writing on behalf of my group to the sportsperson who was abused at the Bonymaen versus Newport match, informing him that, as a National Assembly Member, my sympathies are with him.

Yr wyf yn ymhyfrydu yn y cyfraniad a wnaeth pobl chwaraeon o gefndiroedd lawer ac amrywiol i Gymru dros y blynyddoedd. Drigain neu 70 o flynyddoedd yn ôl, yr oedd pobl o gefndiroedd ethnig yn cynrychioli Cymru ac yn gwneud enw i Gymru yma ac ar draws y byd. Maent wedi cryfhau safle Cymru’n rhyngwladol. Yr wyf felly’n bryderus am y digwyddiad yn y gêm ym Monymaen. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni adolygu’r mater hwn yng nghyd-destun hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon yn gyffredinol. Felly croesawfa eich penderfyniad i drefnu trafodaethau gyda Chyngor Chwaraeon Cymru a’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol gyda’r bwriad o hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb hiliol mewn chwaraeon ar draws Cymru. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu ar ran fy ngrŵp at y chwaraewr a gafodd ei gam-drin yn y gêm rhwng Bonymaen a Chasnewydd, gan ei hysbysu fy mod, fel Aelod o Gynulliad Cymru, yn cydymdeimlo ag ef.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 25

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

We must accept that this case in ongoing and make our comments on the basis that some facts are still possibly in dispute. It is worthwhile to point out that rugby in Wales does not deserve a bad reputation for racism. Only one incident has been reported to the WRU in the last five years. That was dealt with, the fault was found to lie with the club, and sanctions were imposed as a result. It is important to remember that this has not been a major issue in the past. That does not mean that we should not deal with this particular incident seriously, and that we should not plan positively for a future in which racial equality is paramount.

Rhaid inni dderbyn fod yr achos hwn yn mynd rhagddo a gwneud ein sylwadau ar y sail y gall rhai ffeithiau fod yn fater dadl. Mae’n werth nodi nad yw rygbi yng Nghymru yn haeddu enw gwael am hiliaeth. Dim ond un digwyddiad a dynnwyd i sylw Undeb Rygbi Cymru yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Deliwyd â hwnnw a gwelwyd fod y bai yn deillio o’r clwb a gosodwyd cosbau yn sgîl hynny. Mae’n bwysig cofio na fu hyn yn broblem fawr yn y gorffennol. Nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylem ddelio â’r digwyddiad penodol hwn yn ddifrifol, ac na ddylem gynllunio’n gadarnhaol i greu dyfodol lle y bydd cydraddoldeb hiliol o’r pwys mwyaf.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 25

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I thank you, Minister, for the speed with which you have dealt with this matter and I welcome the sense of urgency that you have shown. Rugby union is at the heart of Welsh life and the Welsh Rugby Union, clubs and players, have a responsibility to ensure that the sport addresses racism positively and constructively, if and when it arises. These matters must be dealt with openly, quickly and effectively. Do you believe that that happened in this case? Initially, the clubs concerned wanted to deal with the matter internally and the WRU consequently said that it had no role to play in the matter. I do not think that that adequately meets the responsibility of the players on the scene. The WRU statement, which said that it had not received any complaints from Newport RFC, may well be accurate. However, the South Wales Argus has launched a strong campaign on this issue stating that the WRU told the paper that it would investigate the case regardless of whether there was a complaint from the club, because the player involved was unhappy with the initial situation. I do not expect you to comment on media reports but I believe that the WRU should investigate and take action because of public concern and the seriousness of the matter. It should do so regardless of whether any of the clubs concerned have, or do, complain. You are absolutely right to say that Welsh rugby has a good record. This incident needs to be dealt with quickly and effectively. If we are to avoid rugby being unfairly brought into disrepute, the WRU must act quickly.

Diolchaf ichi, Weinidog, am y ffordd gyflym y deliwyd â’r mater hwn gennych a chroesawaf yr ymdeimlad o frys a ddangoswyd gennych. Mae rygbi’r undeb wrth galon bywyd Cymru ac mae ar Undeb Rygbi Cymru, yn glybiau a chwaraewyr gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau bod y gêm yn mynd i’r afael a hiliaeth yn gadarnhaol ac adeiladol, os a pha bryd y cyfyd. Rhaid delio â’r materion hyn yn agored, yn gyflym ac yn effeithiol. A gredwch fod hyn wedi digwydd yn yr achos hwn? Ar y dechrau, yr oedd y clybiau perthnasol am ddelio â’r mater yn fewnol ac o ganlyniad dywedodd Undeb Rygbi Cymru nad oedd ganddo rôl yn y mater. Nid wyf i o’r farn fod hynny’n cwrdd yn ddigonol â chyfrifoldeb y chwaraewyr a oedd yn y fan a’r lle. Mae’n debyg bod datganiad Undeb Rygbi Cymru, a ddywedodd nad oeddent wedi derbyn unrhyw gwynion oddi wrth Glwb Rygbi Casnewydd, yn gywir. Fodd bynnag, lansiodd y South Wales Argus ymgyrch gref ar y mater hwn gan nodi bod yr undeb wedi dweud wrth y papur y byddai’n ymchwilio i’r achos pa un a fu cwyn oddi wrth y clwb ai peidio, oherwydd bod y chwaraewr dan sylw yn anhapus gyda’r sefyllfa wreiddiol. Nid wyf yn disgwyl ichi wneud sylw ar yr adroddiadau yn y wasg ond credaf y dylai’r undeb ymchwilio a chymryd camau o ganlyniad i bryder y cyhoedd a difrifoldeb y mater. Dylai wneud hynny pa un a yw’r clybiau oedd ynghlwm wrth hyn wedi, neu yn, cwyno ai peidio. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle i ddweud fod gan rygbi Cymru record dda. Mae angen delio â’r digwyddiad hwn yn gyflym ac yn effeithiol. Os ydym am osgoi gweld rygbi yn cael ei ddwyn i anfri yn annheg, rhaid i Undeb Rygbi Cymru weithredu’n gyflym.

Some important questions must be answered. Should there now be a code, or more guidelines for the WRU and for clubs in Wales on how to deal with racist incidents, and on equal opportunity issues? The player complained to the referee during the game but the referee was unable to take effective action to deal with the situation. Is there guidance for match officials in these situations? If they exist, should they be improved and developed? Finally, I welcome the fact that your officials will be holding discussions with the Sports Council for Wales and the Commission for Racial Equality to investigate whether there is scope to promote racial equality. I hope that that investigation will be productive and that some good will come out of these events. I believe that the WRU needs to be reminded of the seriousness of the situation and of the need to respond more appropriately and effectively.

Rhaid ateb rhai cwestiynau pwysig. A ddylai fod côd neu fwy o ganllawiau i’r undeb ac i’r clybiau yng Nghymru i ddelio â digwyddiadau hiliol ac ar faterion cyfle cyfartal? Cwynodd y chwaraewr wrth y dyfarnwr yn ystod y gêm ond ni allai’r dyfarnwr gymryd camau effeithiol i ddelio â’r sefyllfa. A oes arweiniad i swyddogion gemau yn y sefyllfaoedd hyn? Os bodolant, a ddylent gael eu gwella a’u datblygu? Yn olaf croesawaf y ffaith y bydd eich swyddogion yn cynnal trafodaethau gyda Chyngor Chwaraeon Cymru a’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol i ymchwilio a oes lle i hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb hiliol. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr ymchwiliad yn gynhyrchiol ac y daw rhyw ddaioni o’r digwyddiadau hyn. Credaf fod angen atgoffa Undeb Rygbi Cymru o ddifrifoldeb y sefyllfa ac o’r angen i ymateb yn fwy priodol ac effeithiol.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 26

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I appreciate the fact that you raised this important issue. I was keen to respond as quickly as possible and I was pleased that this statement was scheduled for today’s business. I do not want to comment on reports in the press. Not surprisingly, there is some divergence between the press reports and the issues as they were presented to me in the investigations during the last few days in preparation for this statement. One of the issues that this raises is that all governing bodies in sport need to be fit to face the issues and problems of the twenty-first century with a twenty-first century approach.

Gwerthfawrogaf y ffaith ichi godi’r mater pwysig hwn. Yr oeddwn yn awyddus i ymateb mor fuan â phosibl ac yr oeddwn yn falch bod y datganiad hwn wedi ei drefnu ar gyfer busnes heddiw. Nid wyf am wneud sylw ar adroddiadau yn y wasg. Nid yw’n syndod bod peth gwahaniaeth rhwng yr adroddiadau yn y wasg a’r materion fel y cawsant eu cyflwyno i mi yn yr ymchwiliadau yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf wrth baratoi ar gyfer y datganiad hwn. Un o’r pynciau a godwyd yw fod angen i’r holl gyrff llywodraethol mewn chwaraeon fod yn barod i wynebu materion a phroblemau yr unfed ganrif ar hugain gydag ymagwedd sy’n deilwng o’r unfed ganrif ar hugain.

I have already outlined that Welsh rugby does not have a bad reputation on this, nor does it deserve a bad reputation. As only one incident has been reported to the WRU in the last five years, it is not surprising that it does not have a formal policy or procedural documents relating to racial harassment. However, the WRU has stated that it deplores any racial discrimination, and has for many years followed policies that have recognised the merit of players on their playing ability rather than on their race, creed or religion. It may be time to move on from that. I give you my assurance that I will take an ongoing interest in this issue when this specific incident has been dealt with. That must be done before we can consider the issues that it raises.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi amlinellu nad oes gan rygbi Cymru enw gwael ar hyn, ac nad ydyw ychwaith yn haeddu cael enw gwael. Gan mai dim ond un digwyddiad a gyfeiriwyd at Undeb Rygbi Cymru dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, nid yw’n syndod nad oes ganddo bolisi ffurfiol na dogfennau gweithdrefnol yn ymwneud ag aflonyddu hiliol. Fodd bynnag, datganodd Undeb Rygbi Cymru ei fod yn condemnio unrhyw wahaniaethu ar sail hil, a’i fod ers blynyddoedd wedi dilyn polisïau sydd wedi cydnabod rhagoriaethau chwaraewyr ar sail eu gallu i chwarae yn hytrach nag ar eu hil, credo na’u crefydd. Efallai ei bod yn amser i symud ymlaen o hynny. Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi y byddaf yn cymryd diddordeb parhaus yn y mater hwn pan fydd y digwyddiad penodol hwn wedi ei ddatrys. Rhaid i hynny ddigwydd cyn y gallwn ystyried y materion sy’n deillio ohono.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 27

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I associate myself with your comments and those of Members. My first experience of racism in sport may sound amusing but it was a deeply unpleasant experience at the time. I was taking a bath with 29 other naked white men. It was a communal bath after a rugby match; the referee may have been with us. A black boxer who had been training with us stepped into the bath and a lot of the white men stepped out. That was about 30 years ago, but I was deeply shocked at that time. I did not expect to see such a thing happen—but it did happen. I raised it with the club’s management. Racism in sport was shocking and disgraceful 30 years ago; it is shocking and disgraceful today, and we must do everything that we can to stamp it out.

Ategaf eich sylwadau ynghyd â sylwadau’r Aelodau. Efallai fod fy mhrofiad cyntaf o hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon yn swnio’n ddoniol ond yr oedd yn brofiad amhleserus iawn ar y pryd. Yr oeddwn yn cael bath gyda 29 o ddynion noeth gwynion eraill. Bath ar y cyd ar ôl gem rygbi oedd hwnnw; efallai fod y dyfarnwr gyda ni. Camodd bocsiwr du a fu yn ymarfer gyda ni i mewn i’r bath ac fe gamodd llawer o’r dynion gwyn allan. Yr oedd hynny tua 30 mlynedd yn ôl, ond cefais gryn sioc ar y pryd. Nid oeddwn wedi disgwyl gweld y fath beth yn digwydd—ond digwyddodd. Codais hyn gyda rheolwyr y clwb. Yr oedd hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon yn arswydus ac yn warthus 30 mlynedd yn ôl; mae’n arswydus ac yn warthus heddiw, a rhaid inni wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i gael gwared arno’n llwyr.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 27

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

You have raised the issue that racism in sport is not new. We are more alert to it now. It may be more intense and overt in some sports and therefore must be dealt with in a different way than in the past. It has been a latent issue for a long period of time and it needs to be dealt with from a number of different angles: hence my proposals this afternoon for looking constructively at the whole picture.

Codasoch y mater nad yw hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon yn beth newydd. Yr ydym yn fwy effro iddo’n awr. Gall ei fod yn fwy dwys ac amlwg mewn rhai chwaraeon ac felly mae’n rhaid delio ag ef mewn ffordd wahanol i’r hyn a wnaed yn y gorffennol. Mae wedi bod yn fater o dan yr wyneb am gyfnod maith a rhaid delio ag ef o wahanol agweddau: dyna pam y ceir fy nghynigion y prynhawn yma i edrych yn adeiladol ar y darlun cyfan.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 27

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I associate myself with your comments on the incident in Bonymaen and its seriousness and on the need to treat any racism in sport with serious and firm action to try to stamp it out as early as possible. What are the Welsh Rugby Union’s specific policies on racism? Are there proposals to deter racism in the Tasker Watkins report, and has progress been made in implementing that report?

Ategaf eich sylwadau ar y digwyddiad ym Monymaen a’i ddifrifoldeb ac ar yr angen i ddelio ag unrhyw hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon drwy gymryd camau difrifol a chadarn i geisio’i ddileu yn llwyr cyn gynted â phosibl. Beth yw polisïau penodol Undeb Rygbi Cymru ar hiliaeth? A oes cynigion i atal hiliaeth yn adroddiad Tasker Watkins, ac a wnaed cynnydd mewn gweithredu’r adroddiad hwnnw?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 28

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I can give you little more on the WRU’s current specific policies. It has policies in relation to the equality of treatment in general, but they do not specifically refer to racism. On the Tasker Watkins report, I understand that it does not deal with racism. It has no specific reference to racism and racial equality. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong on that, but that is my understanding. I do not believe that the meeting has yet been held at which that report would be discussed. However, in the light of our discussions today, it would not be surprising if, when that meeting is held to deal with the modernisation of the game in general—and I hope that it is held soon—some people will wish to raise this issue.

Ni allaf roi llawer mwy ichi ar bolisïau penodol cyfredol Undeb Rygbi Cymru. Mae ganddo bolisïau mewn perthynas â thriniaeth gyfartal yn gyffredinol, ond ni chyfeiriant yn benodol at hiliaeth. O ran adroddiad Tasker Watkins, deallaf nad ydyw’n delio â hiliaeth. Nid oes ynddo gyfeiriad penodol at hiliaeth a chydraddoldeb hiliol. Yr wyf yn barod i gael fy nghywiro os wyf yn anghywir yn hynny, ond dyna yw fy nealltwriaeth. Ni chredaf y cafodd y cyfarfod lle y trafodir yr adroddiad hwnnw ei gynnal eto. Fodd bynnag, yn wyneb ein trafodaethau heddiw, ni fyddai’n syndod, pan gynhelir y cyfarfod i ddelio â moderneiddio’r gêm yn gyffredinol—a gobeithiaf y caiff ei gynnal yn fuan—pe bai rhai pobl yn dymuno trafod y mater hwn.

Val Lloyd spoken in English p. 28

Val Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Like other Members, I associate myself with the comments that have been made. I was present at that match, and I can honestly say that spectators were not aware of the incident. I cannot comment on the incident—I did not see it, although I was watching the match keenly. The first we heard of it was when we read about it in the local paper later that evening. The rugby club concerned issued a statement to the press that it would not condone racism in sport. Therefore, I am sure that the club and Members join me in agreeing with you that we should utilise sport to promote racial equality.

Fel yr Aelodau eraill, cytunaf â’r sylwadau a wnaed. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol yn y gêm honno, a gallaf ddweud yn onest nad oedd y gwylwyr yn ymwybodol o’r digwyddiad. Ni allaf wneud sylw ar y digwyddiad—nis gwelais, er fy mod yn gwylio’r gêm yn eiddgar. Y cyntaf inni glywed amdano oedd pan ddarllenasom amdano yn y papur lleol yn ddiweddarach y noson honno. Rhoddodd y clwb rygbi dan sylw ddatganiad i’r wasg na fyddai’n goddef hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon. Felly, yr wyf yn sicr bod y clwb a’r Aelodau yn ymuno â mi i gytuno gyda chi y dylem wneud defnydd o chwaraeon i hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb hiliol.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 28

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

In my statement, I mentioned the work that football is doing to deal with racism. The game of football as a whole has undertaken good work. That work deals with racism among the crowd, as well as between players. This was a specifically limited incident. Although there were early indications that this issue would be dealt with at a local level, we can take comfort from the fact that, as John said earlier, it has touched a chord that means that it is getting the priority that it deserves. I do not say that with regard to the specific details of this incident, but in terms of the principles that the incident raises in our minds. In future we need to consider how these incidents are dealt with. There is an indirect channel through the Sports Council for Wales, in its requirements of governing bodies and their procedures.

Yn fy natganiad soniais am y gwaith a wneir gan bêl-droed i ddelio â hiliaeth. Mae’r gêm bêl-droed yn ei chrynswth wedi gwneud gwaith da. Mae’r gwaith hynny’n delio â hiliaeth ymhlith y dorf yn ogystal â rhwng chwaraewyr. Yr oedd y digwyddiad hwn yn benodol gyfyngedig. Er y cafwyd awgrym cynnar y byddai’r mater yn cael ei ddelio ag ef ar lefel leol, gallwn gymryd cysur o’r ffaith, fel y dywedodd John ynghynt, ei fod wedi taro tant sy’n golygu ei fod yn cael y flaenoriaeth y mae’n ei haeddu. Ni ddywedaf hynny gyda golwg ar fanylion penodol y digwyddiad, ond o ran yr egwyddorion a gwyd y digwyddiad yn ein meddyliau. Yn y dyfodol rhaid inni ystyried sut y trafodir y digwyddiadau hyn. Mae sianel anuniongyrchol drwy Gyngor Chwaraeon Cymru, yn y gofynion y mae’n ei osod ar gyrff llywodraethol a’u gweithdrefnau.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 29

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I am sure that you agree that racism should not be tolerated in sport in any way. Do you accept that swift action is required in this instance? Do you also agree that the advent of professionalism in rugby gives rugby clubs far more powers over their players, and that swift, appropriate action should be taken against the guilty party, if found guilty following an investigation?

Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch na ddylid goddef hiliaeth mewn chwaraeon mewn unrhyw ffordd. A gytunwch fod angen camau cyflym yn yr achos hwn? A gytunwch hefyd fod troi rygbi’n broffesiynol wedi rhoi llawer mwy o bwerau i glybiau dros eu chwaraewyr, ac y dylid cymryd camau cyflym priodol yn erbyn y person euog, os y’i ceir yn euog ar ôl ymchwiliad?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 29

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

That is an important point. Strong sanctions can be enforced against players in these days of professional rugby players. It is important to remember that we are talking about this in relation to the sports council and its influence. The sports council gives a relatively limited amount of money to the Welsh Rugby Union for specific projects. The WRU is a big venture, which has a large annual turnover and professional players. You should take comfort from the fact that the union has given us assurances that its disciplinary procedures, if it becomes involved and there is an official complaint, are as swift as is compatible with a just system, that there is an investigation panel and that both sides are able to put their case to that panel after which a finding is made. I outlined the sanctions earlier.

Mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig. Gellir gweithredu sancsiynau cryf yn erbyn chwaraewyr gan fod chwaraewyr rygbi yn broffesiynol y dyddiau hyn. Mae’n bwysig cofio ein bod yn sôn am hyn mewn cysylltiad â’r cyngor chwaraeon a’i ddylanwad. Mae’r cyngor chwaraeon yn rhoi swm cymharol fach o arian i Undeb Rygbi Cymru ar gyfer prosiectau penodol. Mae’r undeb yn fenter fawr sydd â throsiant blynyddol mawr a chwaraewyr proffesiynol. Dylech gael cysur o’r ffaith bod yr undeb wedi rhoi sicrwydd i ni fod ei weithdrefnau disgyblu, os bydd yn ymwneud a’r mater a bod cwyn swyddogol, mor gyflym ag sy’n gydnaws â system gyfiawn, bod panel ymchwilio ac y gall y ddwy ochr gyflwyno’u hachos i’r panel hwnnw cyn iddo roi dyfarniad. Amlinellais y sancsiynau ynghynt.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 29

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

This incident was disappointing. We need to take this opportunity to reaffirm our abhorrence of any discrimination in Wales. We are rich in our multicultural and multilingual make-up and we welcome people whatever their background or whatever language they speak. Traditionally, the arts, music and sport cut across those boundaries and should be bringing people together. I hope that the reaction to this incident will remind people that we will not tolerate racism in Wales, particularly in sport.

Yr oedd y digwyddiad hwn yn siom. Mae angen inni achub ar y cyfle i ategu ein hatgasedd tuag at unrhyw wahaniaethu yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfansoddiad amlddiwylliannol ac amlieithog cyfoethog a chroesawn bobl beth bynnag fo eu cefndir neu eu hiaith. Yn draddodiadol, yr oedd y celfyddydau, cerddoriaeth a chwaraeon yn pontio’r ffiniau hyn a dylent ddod â phobl at ei gilydd. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr adwaith i’r digwyddiad hwn yn atgoffa pobl na wnawn oddef hiliaeth yng Nghymru, yn enwedig mewn chwaraeon.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 30

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Sometimes, we tend to be relaxed about this issue in Wales because we look to some of the more horrific incidents that occur over the border in England and think that ours is a more tolerant society. However, we still have problems, which must be dealt with urgently. I concur with your view of the core importance of sport and culture to social regeneration and social inclusion.

Weithiau, tueddwn i fod yn fwy digyffro am y mater hwn yng Nghymru oherwydd gwelwn rai o’r digwyddiadau mwy difrifol dros y ffin yn Lloegr a thybiwn fod ein cymdeithas ni yn fwy goddefgar. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym broblemau o hyd, y mae’n rhaid inni ddelio â hwy ar unwaith. Yr wyf yn cydsynio â chi o ran pwysigrwydd canolog chwaraeon a diwylliant i adfywiad cymdeithasol a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 30

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

May I dissociate myself entirely from the politically correct claptrap that I have just listened to in the Chamber? Does the Minister not agree that this was a one-off event, which was unfortunate and wrong, but that it is a matter for the law and the rugby authorities? Why on earth are we discussing it here when there are far more important issues that we should be discussing? Is she not aware—and I am speaking as someone who has played and watched rugby for many years—of the type of unguarded, unfortunate comments that people often make? We will be playing against England shortly. We will be questioning their parentage and likening them to some of the less attractive parts of the human body and suggesting that they dispatch themselves and undertake some sexual activity. Therefore, can we cut out this politically correct claptrap and get on with something important?

A gaf i ddatgysylltu fy hun yn llwyr o’r nonsens gwleidyddol gywir yr wyf newydd wrando arno yn y Siambr? A gytuna’r Gweinidog mai digwyddiad un tro oedd hwn, sy’n anffodus ac yn anghywir, ond mai mater i’r gyfraith a’r awdurdodau rygbi yw hyn? Pam yn y byd yr ydym yn ei drafod yn y fan hon pan fo materion llawer pwysicach y dylem fod yn eu trafod? Onid yw hi’n ymwybodol—a siaradaf fel un a chwaraeodd ac a wyliodd rygbi am lawer blwyddyn—o’r math o sylwadau byrbwyll, anffodus y bydd pobl yn aml yn eu gwneud? Byddwn yn chwarae yn erbyn Lloegr cyn bo hir. Byddwn yn bwrw amheuaeth ar eu tras teuluol ac yn eu tebygu i rai o ddarnau lleiaf atyniadol y corff dynol ac yn awgrymu eu bod yn codi’u pac ac yn ymgymryd â rhyw weithgaredd rhywiol. Felly, a gawn ni gael gwared ar y nonsens gwleidyddol gywir hwn a bwrw at rywbeth pwysig?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 30

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

You may speak to people in that way, Rod, but it is not the type of phraseology that passes my lips when I watch a rugby match. In this, as in many things that we discuss here, you find yourself in a minority of one.

Efallai eich bod chi, Rod, yn siarad â phobl yn y ffordd honno, ond nid yw’n fath o derminoleg a ddefnyddiaf i pan yn gwylio gêm rygbi. Yn hyn o beth, fel gyda llawer a drafodwn yma, yr ydych yn canfod eich hun mewn mwyafrif o un.

Datganiad ar Gynigion Llwyddiannus ar gyfer Rhaglenni Hybu Iechyd yn y Sector Gwirfoddol

Statement on Successful Voluntary Sector Health Promotion Scheme Bids

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 30

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I am pleased to be able to announce today the successful applications for project funding for 2002-04 from the health promotion voluntary sector grant scheme.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gyhoeddi heddiw y ceisiadau llwyddiannus am arian prosiect ar gyfer 2002-04 o gynllun grant hybu iechyd yn y sector gwirfoddol.

As the Health and Social Services Committee will see tomorrow in the Chief Medical Officer’s annual report, the voluntary sector plays a significant role in the drive for improved health and in diminishing health inequalities. There is growing recognition of the value and importance of its contribution. There are over 4,000 voluntary organisations in Wales whose work relates to health and social care issues and I am pleased to say that partnership working with and within the voluntary sector is increasing.

Fel y gwêl y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yfory yn adroddiad blynyddol y Prif Swyddog Meddygol, mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn chwarae rhan bwysig yn yr ymgyrch i wella iechyd a lleihau anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Mae cydnabyddiaeth gynyddol o werth a phwysigrwydd ei gyfraniad. Mae dros 4,000 o fudiadau gwirfoddol yng Nghymru y mae eu gwaith yn ymwneud â materion iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ac yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda’r sector gwirfoddol ac o fewn y sector hwnnw yn cynyddu.

Increasingly, communities are the prime focus of action to promote health and wellbeing. The voluntary sector is ideally placed to help communities identify and address their own health needs, and to provide access to the most vulnerable and disadvantaged members of society. The health promotion voluntary sector grant scheme exists to strengthen national health promotion work in Wales. Grants are offered to national voluntary organisations that can contribute to general health promotion and complement the national work of the Welsh Assembly Government. The grants are payable under section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968.

Cymunedau yn gynyddol yw prif ganolbwynt gweithredu hybu iechyd a lles. Mae’r sector gwirfoddol mewn lle delfrydol i helpu cymunedau i nodi eu hanghenion iechyd eu hunain a mynd i’r afael â hwy, a darparu mynediad i aelodau mwyaf diamddiffyn a difreintiedig o gymdeithas. Mae cynllun grant hybu iechyd yn y sector gwirfoddol yn bodoli i gryfhau gwaith hybu iechyd cenedlaethol yng Nghymru. Cynigir grantiau i fudiadau gwirfoddol cenedlaethol a all gyfrannu i waith hybu iechyd cyffredinol ac ategu gwaith cenedlaethol Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Mae’r grantiau’n daladwy o dan adran 64 Deddf Gwasanaethau Iechyd ac Iechyd y Cyhoedd 1968.

Following a review of the scheme last year, I accepted a recommendation that, for the next round of projects, voluntary organisations should be encouraged to work in partnership with each other and with other agencies. This should help to strengthen collaborative working, the sharing of expertise and networking.

Yn dilyn adolygiad o’r cynllun y llynedd, derbyniais argymhelliad, ar gyfer y prosiectau nesaf, y dylid annog mudiadau gwirfoddol i weithio mewn partneriaeth â’i gilydd a chydag asiantaethau eraill. Dylai hyn fod o gymorth i gryfhau cydweithio, rhannu arbenigedd a rhwydweithio.

The themes for 2002-04 are older people, hard to reach groups, strengthening community networks and accident prevention and injury control.

Y themâu ar gyfer 2002-04 yw pobl hŷn, grwpiau sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd, cryfhau rhwydweithiau cymunedol ac atal damweiniau a rheoli anafiadau.

The competition was particularly tough this year. We received 34 applications from national voluntary organisations, of which eight were successful. All fulfil the criteria agreed upon in the review process and some projects address more than one of this year’s themes. The successful projects that I am announcing today will operate between April 2002 and March 2004 and will each receive a portion of the £400,000 that is available over the next two years.

Yr oedd y gystadleuaeth yn frwd iawn eleni. Daeth 34 o geisiadau i law gan fudiadau gwirfoddol cenedlaethol, a bu wyth yn llwyddiannus. Maent i gyd yn bodloni’r meini prawf y cytunwyd arnynt yn y broses adolygu ac mae rhai prosiectau yn mynd i’r afael â mwy nag un o’r themâu eleni. Bydd y prosiectau llwyddiannus a gyhoeddaf heddiw yn gweithredu rhwng Ebrill 2002 a Mawrth 2004 a chânt oll ran o’r £400,000 sydd ar gael dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf.

The successful organisations and projects are as follows: Child Safe Wales has been awarded a grant of £68,000 for a programme of work that includes a child accident and injury prevention project, which will introduce a home safety risk assessment and risk reduction programme to high-need communities in Wales. The British Red Cross has been awarded a grant of £55,000 for a volunteer mentor scheme for refugees. This project will work with newly-arrived refugees to build and extend their capacity to promote their own health and wellbeing through various organised activities. The Church Army is to receive £55,000 for a project called Health Raising Awareness and Peer Support that engages young people in identifying barriers to health and factors that lead to self-harm. They will be encouraged to develop peer group support structures and dissemination networks for those working with young people. Care and Repair Cymru is to receive £26,000 for a project which aims to develop joint working between health professionals and housing and social care workers by raising awareness of the link between poor housing, poor health and accidents in the home.

Y mudiadau a’r prosiectau llwyddiannus yw fel a ganlyn: Caiff Child Safe Wales grant o £68,000 ar gyfer rhaglen o waith sy’n cynnwys prosiect atal damweiniau ac anafiadau i blant, a fydd yn cyflwyno asesiad o risg yn y cartref a rhaglen lleihau risg i gymunedau yng Nghymru sydd ag anghenion mawr. Caiff y Groes Goch Brydeinig grant o £55,000 ar gyfer cynllun mentoriaid gwirfoddol i geiswyr lloches. Bydd y prosiect hwn yn gweithio â cheiswyr lloches sy’n newydd ddyfodiaid i ehangu ac adeiladu ar eu gallu i hybu eu hiechyd a’u lles eu hunain drwy weithgareddau amrywiol a drefnwyd. Caiff y Church Army £55,000 ar gyfer prosiect o’r enw Health Raising Awareness and Peer Support, a fydd yn helpu pobl ifanc i nodi rhwystrau i iechyd a’r ffactorau sy’n arwain at hunan-niwed. Cânt eu hannog i ddatblygu strwythurau cymorth cyfoedion a rhwydweithiau lledaenu ar gyfer y rhai sy’n gweithio gyda phobl ifanc. Caiff Gofal a Thrwsio Cymru £26,000 ar gyfer prosiect sy’n anelu at ddatblygu cydweithio rhwng gweithwyr proffesiynol iechyd, gweithwyr tai a gweithwyr gofal cymdeithasol drwy godi ymwybyddiaeth o’r cysylltiad rhwng tai gwael, iechyd gwael a damweiniau yn y cartref.

British Trust for Conservation Volunteers Cymru is awarded £85,000 for a project to promote the use of green gyms. It aims to help to sustainably improve the health of deprived communities by encouraging physical activity through involvement in conservation projects. Cruse Bereavement Care Cymru is awarded £43,000 for a bereavement service portal project, which will aim to increase awareness of bereavement among health and social care providers and consumers. It will also aim to improve access to support in bereavement, thus helping to avert mental ill health and social dysfunction associated with unsupported grief. Voices from Care is to receive £33,000 for a peer-led health promotion project for looked-after young people and those leaving care. This project aims to improve access to health information for these young people and to help ensure that their needs are addressed in other health and social care initiatives. Finally, Children in Wales is to receive £33,000 for a project that aims to improve the health of looked-after children and young people leaving care by improving professional practice to ensure that young people achieve their full potential. This project is aimed at professionals working with young people. Voices from Care and Children in Wales will work closely and their projects have been designed to complement each other.

Caiff y British Trust for Conservation Volunteers Cymru £85,000 ar gyfer prosiect i hyrwyddo’r defnydd o gampfeydd gwyrdd. Ei nod yw helpu i wella iechyd cymunedau difreintiedig yn gynaliadwy drwy hybu gweithgaredd gorfforol drwy gymryd rhan mewn prosiectau cadwraeth. Caiff Cruse Bereavement Care Cymru £43,000 ar gyfer prosiect porth gwasanaeth profedigaeth, fydd â’r nod o godi ymwybyddiaeth o brofedigaeth ymysg darparwyr a defnyddwyr iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Bydd hefyd yn anelu at wella mynediad i gymorth mewn profedigaeth, a thrwy hynny helpu i atal salwch meddwl a thrafferthion cymdeithasol sy’n gysylltiedig â phrofedigaeth ymhlith pobl nad ydynt yn cael cymorth. Caiff Voices from Care £33,000 ar gyfer prosiect hybu iechyd dan arweiniad cyfoedion ar gyfer pobl ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal a’r rhai sy’n gadael gofal. Nod y prosiect hwn fydd gwella mynediad i wybodaeth iechyd ar gyfer y bobl ifanc hyn a helpu i sicrhau y caiff eu hanghenion hwy eu trafod o fewn mentrau gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol eraill. Yn olaf, caiff Plant yng Nghymru £33,000 ar gyfer prosiect sy’n anelu at wella iechyd plant sy’n derbyn gofal a phobl ifanc sy’n gadael gofal drwy wella ymarfer proffesiynol i sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn cyrraedd eu llawn potensial. Anelir y prosiect hwn at bobl broffesiynol sy’n gweithio gyda phobl ifanc. Bydd Voices from Care a Phlant yng Nghymru yn cydweithio’n agos a chynlluniwyd eu prosiectau i ategu ei gilydd.

All these projects demonstrate the processes of partnership and joining up for better health. They demonstrate partnership between the Assembly Government and the voluntary sector as we work with these organisations to ensure that each project achieves its objectives and receives support, and partnership between these organisations and other agencies. The projects also demonstrate the commitment of organisations within and outside the health and social care field to joining up across sectors to work for better health and wellbeing for the people of Wales.

Mae’r holl brosiectau hyn yn dangos prosesau partneriaeth ac ymuno ar gyfer gwell iechyd. Maent yn dangos y bartneriaeth rhwng Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r sector gwirfoddol wrth inni gydweithio â’r mudiadau hyn i sicrhau y caiff amcanion pob prosiect eu cyflawni a’u cefnogi, a phartneriaeth rhwng y mudiadau hyn ac asiantaethau eraill. Mae’r prosiectau hefyd yn dangos ymrwymiad mudiadau o fewn a’r tu allan i’r maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol i ymuno ar draws sectorau i weithio ar gyfer gwell iechyd a lles ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 33

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I declare an interest as a general practitioner.

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu.

This announcement emphasises that health is everybody’s business and not just that of the NHS. The statement deals with the care of older people, hard-to-reach groups, and injury control and accident prevention. Accidents are a significant cause of health morbidity and mortality, although we do not often hear about the issue.

Mae’r cyhoeddiad hwn yn pwysleisio bod iechyd yn fater i bawb ac nid y GIG yn unig. Mae’r datganiad yn ymdrin â gofalu am bobl hŷn, grwpiau sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd, a rheoli niwed ac atal damweiniau. Mae damweiniau yn achosi cryn afiechyd a nifer fawr o farwolaethau, er na fyddwn yn clywed am y mater yn aml.

On reading the annual report of Ruth Hall, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, which will be discussed at the Health and Social Services Committee meeting tomorrow, we learn that health inequality is continuing to increase in Wales. We still have some of the worst health statistics. In particular, the death rates of some unitary authorities in Wales are 50 per cent higher than those of authorities with the lowest death rates. There are significant challenges to face. Therefore, we need aggressive health promotion in our communities regarding, in particular, smoking, excluded groups—which we are hearing about today—and housing, which are a part of this announcement. Community projects present one of the most effective ways of delivering health promotion changes on the ground. There is much valuable expertise in the voluntary sector. Today’s announcement gives due recognition to the sector’s role in health promotion.

Wrth ddarllen adroddiad blynyddol Ruth Hall, Prif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru, a gaiff ei drafod yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yfory, dysgwn fod anghydraddoldeb iechyd yng Nghymru yn parhau i gynyddu. Ni sydd â rhai o’r ystadegau iechyd gwaethaf o hyd. Yn benodol, mae cyfradd marwolaethau rhai awdurdodau unedol yng Nghymru 50 y cant yn uwch na’r gyfradd yn yr awdurdodau hynny sydd â’r gyfradd marwolaethau isaf. Mae sawl her sylweddol o’n blaenau. Felly, mae angen hybu iechyd yn gadarn yn ein cymunedau yn ymwneud, yn bennaf, ag ysmygu, grwpiau sydd wedi eu hallgáu––y clywn amdanynt heddiw––a thai, sy’n rhan o’r cyhoeddiad hwn. Mae prosiectau cymunedol yn cynnig un o’r ffyrdd mwyaf effeithiol o gyflwyno newidiadau hybu iechyd ar lawr gwlad. Mae llawer o arbenigedd gwerthfawr yn y sector gwirfoddol. Mae cyhoeddiad heddiw yn rhoi’r gydnabyddiaeth deilwng i rôl y sector mewn hybu iechyd.

Has the Minister given any further thought—we have corresponded on this several times in the past—to the urgent need to provide consistent core funding, year on year, to voluntary sector bodies that provide vital regional or all-Wales services in the health and social services arena? Such vital regional services are provided, effectively, as a statutory service but are not provided by our statutory services.

A roddodd y Gweinidog unrhyw ystyriaeth bellach––buom yn gohebu ar hyn sawl gwaith yn y gorffennol––i’r angen brys i ddarparu arian craidd parhaol, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, i gyrff y sector gwirfoddol sy’n darparu gwasanaethau rhanbarthol hanfodol neu ar sail Cymru gyfan ym maes iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol? Darperir gwasanaethau rhanbarthol hanfodol o’r fath, i bob pwrpas, fel gwasanaeth statudol ond ni chânt eu darparu gan ein gwasanaethau statudol.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 34

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I am grateful for your positive remarks about these announcements. They will tackle health inequalities, particularly in terms of looked-after young people, refugees and older people. They will address the key issue of the connection between poor health, poor housing and social care. Tomorrow is no smoking day, and I hope that all Assembly Members will join in the event which will be held on Thursday. That is an important message for the Assembly to promote.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau cadarnhaol am y cyhoeddiadau hyn. Byddant yn mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd, yn arbennig yn nhermau pobl ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal, ceiswyr lloches a phobl hŷn. Byddant yn mynd i’r afael â’r mater allweddol o’r cysylltiad rhwng iechyd gwael, tai gwael a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae yfory yn ddiwrnod dim ysmygu, a gobeithiaf y bydd holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymuno â’r digwyddiad a gaiff ei gynnal ddydd Iau. Mae hynny yn neges bwysig i’r Cynulliad ei hybu.

As you said, the Chief Medical Officer’s annual report voices concerns, and also gives information on progress being made to improve the health of the people of Wales. The funding being announced today is for core projects to promote health and wellbeing. The core funding of the voluntary sector is achieved through a variety of means. This year, £20 million of general Assembly grants will go to the voluntary sector. That includes the core funding for organisations at national and regional levels, such as the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. The voluntary sector partnership council, which plays a key role in the strategic development of funding, has provided much support and resources for us in terms of policy development. Last year, I announced an extra £700,000 for local voluntary groups and volunteering in Wales. The funding is increasing, it is substantial and the voluntary sector plays an important role in improving the health and wellbeing of the people of Wales.

Fel y dywedasoch, mae adroddiad y Prif Swyddog Meddygol yn nodi pryderon, a hefyd yn rhoi gwybodaeth am y cynnydd a wneir i wella iechyd pobl Cymru. Mae’r arian a gyhoeddir heddiw ar gyfer prosiectau craidd i hybu iechyd a lles. Caiff arian craidd y sector gwirfoddol ei gyflawni mewn sawl modd. Eleni, bydd £20 miliwn o grantiau cyffredinol y Cynulliad yn mynd i’r sector gwirfoddol. Mae hynny’n cynnwys yr arian craidd ar gyfer mudiadau ar lefel genedlaethol a rhanbarthol, megis Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru. Mae cyngor partneriaeth y sector gwirfoddol, sy’n chwarae rhan allweddol mewn datblygu arian yn strategol, wedi rhoi llawer o gymorth ac adnoddau inni o ran datblygu polisïau. Y llynedd, cyhoeddais £700,000 yn ychwanegol ar gyfer grwpiau gwirfoddol lleol a gwirfoddoli yng Nghymru. Mae’r arian yn cynyddu, mae’n sylweddol ac mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn chwarae rhan bwysig mewn gwella iechyd a lles pobl Cymru.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 35

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

The announcement of £400,000 is welcome, and it will save lives in Wales. Do you share my regret that tobacco companies regard that sort of money as small change in their efforts to recruit 7,000 Welsh children to replace the 7,000 adults that they will kill this year? During non-smoking week, I notice that the share price of tobacco companies is buoyant, which shows that the City of London is relaxed about the Government’s proposals. Do you share my view that smoke-free public places, advertising bans and the strict policing of cigarette sales to children is needed and soon?

Croesewir y cyhoeddiad o £400,000, a bydd yn achub bywydau yng Nghymru. A ydych, fel finnau, yn gresynu bod cwmnïau tybaco yn ystyried y swm hwn o arian fel newid mân yn eu hymdrech i recriwtio 7,000 o blant Cymru i gymryd lle’r 7,000 o oedolion y byddant yn eu lladd eleni? Yn ystod wythnos dim ysmygu, sylwaf fod pris cyfranddaliadau cwmnïau tybaco yn fywiog, sy’n dangos bod Dinas Llundain yn ddigyffro am gynigion y Llywodraeth. A ydych o’r un farn â minnau bod angen mannau cyhoeddus di-fwg, gwahardd hysbysebu a phlismona cadarn ar werthu sigarets i blant a hynny yn fuan?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 35

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

We will focus on those issues this week. However, this should not be for no smoking day only. We are investing millions of pounds in smoking cessation initiatives across Wales, targeting children and young people in particular. We recognise that we must find ways to help those children and young people, and address the scourge of smoking in their families and their communities. You are right to focus on the tobacco companies and the appalling profits that are made at the expense of the health of our children and young people, both in Wales and across the world, particularly in developing countries. I am sure that we are united in supporting your sentiments, and we will ensure that we do what we can to ensure that smoking cessation is a reality in Wales, for the health and wellbeing of our people.

Fe ganolbwyntiwn ar y materion hynny yr wythnos hon. Fodd bynnag, nid ar gyfer diwrnod dim ysmygu yn unig y dylai hyn fod. Yr ydym yn buddsoddi miliynau o bunnoedd mewn mentrau rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu ledled Cymru, gan dargedu pobl ifanc a phlant yn bennaf. Cydnabyddwn fod angen inni ganfod ffyrdd o helpu’r plant a’r bobl ifanc hynny, a mynd i’r afael â melltith ysmygu yn eu teuluoedd a’u cymunedau. Yr ydych yn iawn i ganolbwyntio ar y cwmnïau tybaco a’r elw erchyll a wneir ar draul iechyd ein plant a’n pobl ifanc, yng Nghymru ac ar draws y byd, yn arbennig mewn gwledydd datblygol. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn cefnogi eich barn, a byddwn yn sicrhau y gwnawn bopeth o fewn ein gallu i sicrhau bod rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu yn cael ei wireddu yng Nghymru, er mwyn iechyd a lles ein pobl ifanc.

David Melding spoken in English p. 35

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I also welcome these grants and the enhanced role for the voluntary sector, which is often key in delivering health targets. I notice that the need to reduce the level of accidents is emphasised. I believe that accidents are the second major cause of death in children and young people, so that is welcome. However, do you agree that we are still shy to take on the major issue as far as accidental death is concerned, namely the need for 20 mile per hour speed limits in urban areas? That would dramatically and immediately cut the number of child deaths in this country.

Croesawaf innau y grantiau hyn a rôl helaethach y sector gwirfoddol, sydd yn aml yn allweddol i gyrraedd targedau iechyd. Sylwaf ar y pwyslais a roddir ar yr angen i leihau’r lefel o ddamweiniau. Credaf mai damweiniau yw’r achos marwolaeth mwyaf ond un ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc, felly croesawaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch ein bod yn dal i osgoi’r prif reswm y tu ôl i farwolaethau damweiniol, sef yr angen am gyfyngiadau cyflymder o 20 milltir yr awr mewn ardaloedd trefol? Byddai hynny yn torri nifer y plant sy’n marw yn y wlad hon yn sylweddol ac ar unwaith.

Secondly, if we significantly reduce the record levels of children now smoking—29 per cent of 15-year-old girls and 20 per cent of 15-year-old boys are regular smokers—we will have the greatest impact possible on future good health. Do you agree that we should use a wide range of groups, including voluntary groups, to target children who already smoke and try to urge them to give up smoking? At a time when tobacco companies are trying to push the concept of a safe cigarette, we should tell children that smoking is the worst possible habit that they can take up in terms of their future health and wellbeing.

Yn ail, pe baem yn lleihau’n sylweddol y niferoedd uchaf erioed o blant sy’n ysmygu ar hyn o bryd––mae 29 y cant o ferched 15 oed a 20 y cant o fechgyn 15 oed yn ysmygu’n rheolaidd––byddem yn cael yr effaith fwyaf posibl ar iechyd da yn y dyfodol. A gytunwch y dylem ddefnyddio ystod eang o grwpiau, gan gynnwys grwpiau gwirfoddol, i dargedu plant sydd eisoes yn ysmygu a cheisio eu hannog i roi’r gorau i ysmygu? Mewn cyfnod pan fo cwmnïau tybaco yn ceisio gwthio’r cysyniad o sigaret ddiogel, dylem ddweud wrth blant mai ysmygu yw’r arferiad gwaethaf posibl y gallent ei fabwysiadu o ran eu lles a’u hiechyd yn y dyfodol.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 36

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

These grants target health inequalities and hard-to-reach groups. The focus on accident prevention is an important criterion and I am glad that we can support the work of Child Safe Wales. You may remember, David, the presentation by the Collaboration for Accident Prevention and Injury Control, based at Llandough Hospital, which showed that health inequalities are related to accidents and injuries, and that our most deprived communities have the worst record of accidents. Reducing accidents is part of our health gain targets, as you will see from the Chief Medical Officer’s report, and we recognise the impact that accidents have on the poorest people in Wales. I am delighted that a 20 miles per hour speed limit now operates around a primary school in Canton in Cardiff. It is a densely populated area, in which speed bumps are also used. It is an important model for the rest of Wales to consider. Assembly Members may know of other 20 mph speed limit areas. My colleagues Sue Essex and Jane Davidson are keen to promote this and it is linked to the safer routes to school initiative. We must join up our initiatives to prevent accidents.

Mae’r grantiau hyn yn targedu anghydraddoldebau iechyd a grwpiau y mae’n anodd eu cyrraedd. Mae’r ffocws ar atal damweiniau yn faen prawf pwysig ac yr wyf yn falch y gallwn gefnogi gwaith Child Safe Wales. Efallai y cofiwch, David, y cyflwyniad gan y Collaboration for Accident Prevention and Injury Control a leolir yn Ysbyty Llanddochau, a ddangosodd fod anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn gysylltiedig â damweiniau ac anafiadau, ac mai ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig sydd â’r record waethaf o ran damweiniau. Mae lleihau damweiniau yn rhan o’n targedau gwella iechyd, fel y gwelwch o adroddiad y Prif Swyddog Meddygol, a chydnabyddwn yr effaith a gaiff damweiniau ar y bobl dlotaf yng Nghymru. Yr wyf wrth fy modd bod cyfyngiad cyflymder o 20 milltir yr awr bellach mewn grym o amgylch ysgol gynradd yn Nhreganna yng Nghaerdydd. Mae’n ardal boblog iawn, lle y caiff rampiau cyflymder eu defnyddio hefyd. Mae’n fodel pwysig i weddill Cymru ei ystyried. Efallai bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gwybod am ardaloedd eraill lle mae cyfyngiad cyflymder o 20 milltir yr awr. Mae fy nghyd-Weinidogion Sue Essex a Jane Davidson yn awyddus i hyrwyddo hyn ac mae’n gysylltiedig â’r fenter llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol. Rhaid inni gydgysylltu ein mentrau er mwyn atal damweiniau.

On the serious issue of smoking cessation, children are engaged in the network of health promoting schools now developing around Wales. In many of these schools, children, teaching staff, governors and parents are tackling issues such as smoking cessation. There are also other initiatives such as the smoke bug clubs and initiatives for adults such as ‘quit and win’. In addition, a publicity campaign over the last few weeks has been successful. It tells young women that smoking will affect their skin and young men that it will affect their sporting prowess. That is hitting home; more calls have been received as a result of that Welsh Assembly Government campaign than as a result of any other campaign aimed at young people.

Ynglŷn â mater difrifol rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu, mae plant bellach yn cymryd rhan yn y rhwydwaith hybu iechyd a ddatblygir ar hyn o bryd mewn ysgolion ar draws Cymru. Mewn llawer o’r ysgolion hyn, mae plant, staff dysgu, llywodraethwyr a rhieni yn mynd i’r afael â materion fel rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu. Mae mentrau eraill ar gael hefyd megis clybiau pryf mwg a mentrau i oedolion megis ‘curo ac ennill’. Yn ogystal, bu ymgyrch gyhoeddusrwydd yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf yn llwyddiannus. Mae’n dweud wrth ferched ifanc y bydd ysmygu yn effeithio ar eu croen ac yn dweud wrth ddynion ifanc y bydd yn effeithio ar eu galluoedd mewn chwaraeon. Mae hynny’n taro’r nod; derbyniwyd mwy o alwadau o ganlyniad i’r ymgyrch honno gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru nag unrhyw ymgyrch arall a anelwyd at bobl ifanc.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 37

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I congratulate the eight successful projects. However, I am concerned about the 26 projects that were not successful. I would be grateful for your comments on whether those bids were unsuccessful because they failed to meet the criteria, or because the funds available under section 54 are limited. If the latter, will you consider increasing the resources available in next year’s budget round?

Llongyfarchaf yr wyth prosiect llwyddiannus. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn bryderus am y 26 prosiect a oedd yn aflwyddiannus. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau ynglŷn ag a oedd y ceisiadau hynny’n aflwyddiannus am iddynt fethu â bodloni’r meini prawf, ynteu am fod yr arian sydd ar gael o dan adran 54 yn gyfyngedig. Os mai dyna’r rheswm, a ystyriwch gynyddu’r adnoddau a fydd ar gael yn ystod cylch cyllidebu y flwyddyn nesaf?

In response to Dai Lloyd’s point you said that you would continue to consider revenue funding for all-Wales organisations. Will you guarantee that you will consider the case of Epilepsy Wales, which is approaching a crisis point in its work on behalf of epilepsy patients throughout Wales? Do you agree that, while all-Wales funding is welcome, we need to consider the sustainability of funding for voluntary organisations that undertake local health promotion work? In my constituency, the Radical Project takes a mobile vehicle around Powys and distributes health promotion messages to young people. However, it struggles every year to persuade Dyfed Powys Health Authority and Powys local health group that it needs funding. If new resources become available under section 54, will you consider whether it would be possible for organisations such as the Radical Project to bid also?

Mewn ymateb i bwynt Dai Lloyd dywedasoch y byddech yn parhau i ystyried cyllid refeniw ar gyfer mudiadau Cymru gyfan. A ydych yn gwarantu y byddwch yn ystyried achos Epilepsy Wales, sy’n wynebu argyfwng yn ei waith ar ran cleifion epilepsi ledled Cymru? A gytunwch, er bod croeso i’r arian ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, fod yn rhaid inni ystyried cynaliadwyedd arian mudiadau gwirfoddol sy’n ymgymryd â gwaith hybu iechyd? Yn fy etholaeth i, mae’r Radical Project yn gyrru cerbyd symudol o amgylch Powys gan ddosbarthu negeseuon hybu iechyd i bobl ifanc. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn cael trafferth bob blwyddyn i ddarbwyllo Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys a grŵp iechyd lleol Powys bod angen arian arno. Os bydd adnoddau newydd ar gael o dan adran 54, a wnewch chi ystyried pa un ai yw hi’n bosibl i fudiadau megis y Radical Project wneud cais hefyd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 38

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

You will know, Kirsty, that this is a national scheme for funding projects. I am aware that the demand for funding outstrips the supply. The bids were scrutinised with advice from organisations across the sector. I assure you projects were successful on the basis of the criteria that I have announced. There were disappointed applicants and we have discussed other sources of funding with them.

Fe wyddoch, Kirsty, fod hwn yn gynllun cenedlaethol i ariannu prosiectau. Gwn fod y galw am arian yn uwch na’r hyn sydd gennym i’w roi. Craffwyd ar y ceisiadau gyda chyngor mudiadau ar draws y sector. Rhoddaf sicrwydd bod prosiectau’n llwyddiannus ar sail y meini prawf a gyhoeddais. Cafodd rhai ymgeiswyr siom, ac yr ydym wedi trafod ffynonellau ariannu eraill â hwy.

I have also asked for a review of voluntary sector funding across my portfolio so that we can adjust and improve the backing of certain programmes if necessary. It is currently the responsibility of health authorities to back local health schemes and projects. There are also exciting developments through the new opportunities fund in terms of healthy living centres and healthy living initiatives, which embrace community health development. Much development has taken place through the partnership working of health alliances, whereby the health service, local government, and the voluntary sector work together. The national organisations that make applications to us for funding are treated equitably and there are set criteria for national funding. Epilepsy Wales received funding through an appropriate source last year, but, for local projects, it must turn to the local health authority.

Yr wyf hefyd wedi gofyn am adolygiad o ariannu’r sector gwirfoddol ar gyfer fy mhortffolio cyfan fel y gallwn addasu a gwella’r gefnogaeth i raglenni penodol os oes angen. Cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdodau iechyd ar hyn o bryd yw cefnogi cynlluniau a phrosiectau iechyd lleol. Mae datblygiadau cyffrous newydd hefyd drwy’r gronfa cyfleoedd newydd o ran canolfannau byw’n iach a mentrau byw’n iach, sy’n cynnwys datblygiadau iechyd cymunedol. Digwyddodd llawer o ddatblygiadau wrth i’r cynghreiriau iechyd weithio mewn partneriaeth, lle mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd, llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol yn cydweithio. Caiff y mudiadau cenedlaethol sy’n cyflwyno ceisiadau inni am arian eu trin yn gyfartal ac mae meini prawf penodol ar gyfer ariannu yn genedlaethol. Cafodd Epilepsy Wales arian drwy ffynhonnell briodol y llynedd, ond, ar gyfer prosiectau lleol, rhaid iddo droi at yr awdurdod iechyd lleol.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 38

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Thank you for the statement, Minister. I particularly welcome the money granted to Voices from Care and to Children in Wales, as we are all concerned about the health of looked-after children and young people, which has been little short of a national disgrace in the past. Can you tell us about the process for monitoring these projects? To what extent are they one-off projects? Is there any prospect of repeat funding if they are successful?

Diolch am y datganiad, Weinidog. Croesawaf yn arbennig yr arian a roddwyd i Voices from Care ac i Blant yng Nghymru, gan ein bod oll yn bryderus am iechyd plant a phobl ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal, na fu dim byd llai na gwarth cenedlaethol yn y gorffennol. A allwch sôn wrthym am y broses o fonitro’r prosiectau hyn? I ba raddau y maent yn brosiectau unigol? A oes gobaith y cânt eu hariannu eilwaith os byddant yn llwyddiannus?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 38

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

We were pleased that Voices from Care and Children in Wales came together. They are complementary but separate projects. Voices from Care is very much peer-led, and it has carried out important work in terms of the Children First programme. On the health of looked-after young people, we have not done enough in that respect, so this will open doors. These are projects; we are not providing core funding through this. The projects are about innovation and breaking new ground. One criterion was that the projects should be sustainable, and that helped us consider their future. Some will become embedded in a change of policy and practice among mainstream organisations, particularly the health service, and the Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000 provides opportunities at a local level. We must also consider whether some of them may need longer-term funding, but that will be part of the monitoring and evaluation.

Yr oeddem yn falch bod Voices from Care a Phlant yng Nghymru wedi dod at ei gilydd. Maent yn brosiectau ar wahân er eu bod yn ategu ei gilydd. Mae Voices from Care yn un a gaiff ei arwain gan gyfoedion, a gwnaeth waith pwysig mewn cysylltiad â’r rhaglen Rhoi Plant yn Gyntaf. O ran iechyd pobl ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal, ni wnaethom ddigon yn y cyswllt hwnnw, felly bydd hyn yn agor drysau. Prosiectau yw’r rhain; nid ydym yn darparu arian craidd drwy hyn. Mae’r prosiectau yn ymwneud â dyfeisgarwch a thorri tir newydd. Un o’r meini prawf oedd y dylai’r prosiectau fod yn gynaliadwy, a bu hynny o gymorth inni ystyried eu dyfodol. Bydd rhai wedi eu gwreiddio mewn newid polisi ac ymarfer ymysg y sefydliadau prif ffrwd, yn arbennig y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac mae Deddf Plant (Gadael Gofal) 2000 yn cynnig cyfleoedd ar lefel leol. Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried a fydd angen arian yn y tymor hwy ar rai ohonynt, ond bydd hynny yn rhan o’r broses fonitro a gwerthuso.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 39

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Thank you for the statement and the impetus it gives to a more holistic approach to health and wellbeing in Wales. Early teenage pregnancy is a real issue for us, particularly in our poorer areas. Recent evidence from Holland suggests that there is a link between the take-up of sport by girls and the avoidance of early teenage pregnancy. Will you look into this and perhaps work with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning and the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language to see how this can be addressed?

Diolch am y datganiad a’r hwb a roddir ganddo i ymagwedd fwy cyfannol i iechyd a lles yng Nghymru. Mae beichiogrwydd ymhlith merched yn eu harddegau cynnar yn fater difrifol inni, yn arbennig yn ein hardaloedd tlotaf. Mae tystiolaeth ddiweddar o’r Iseldiroedd yn awgrymu bod cysylltiad rhwng merched yn eu harddegau cynnar yn cymrud rhan mewn chwareon ac osgoi beichiogrwydd. A ymchwiliwch i hyn, gan gydweithio, o bosibl, â’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg i weld sut y gellir mynd i’r afael â hyn?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 39

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I look forward to seeing that evidence from Holland. This is the sort of issue that the children’s cabinet committee could address. Jane Davidson, Jenny Randerson, the First Minister and I are members of that committee. It is important that we consider all the approaches to preventing teenage pregnancy. For example, we know that there is a link between prevention and having women GPs, which we now have in Cynon Valley. The availability of advice and guidance to young people through our sexual health strategy, is also significant.

Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y dystiolaeth honno o’r Iseldiroedd. Dyma’r math o beth y gallai pwyllgor plant y cabinet ei ystyried. Mae Jane Davidson, Jenny Randerson, Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau yn aelodau o’r pwyllgor hwnnw. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried yr holl ymagweddau tuag at atal beichiogrwydd ymysg merched yn eu harddegau. Er enghraifft, gwyddom fod cysylltiad rhwng atal beichiogrwydd a chael meddygon teulu sy’n ferched, sydd gennym bellach yng Nghwm Cynon. Mae’r cyngor a’r arweiniad sydd ar gael i’n pobl ifanc drwy ein strategaeth iechyd rhyw yn arwyddocaol hefyd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 39

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I would encourage any measures that communicate the risks of smoking, but those risks having been communicated, do you accept that adults should have the freedom to smoke if they wish, without feeling like lepers?

Byddwn yn hybu unrhyw fesurau sy’n cyfleu’r risgiau sy’n gysylltiedig ag ysmygu, ond wedi cyfleu’r risgiau hynny, a dderbyniwch y dylai fod gan oedolion y rhyddid i ysmygu os ydynt yn dymuno, heb deimlo fel gwahanglwyf?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I do not need to answer that point, Alun, as I am sure that there will be vigorous debate on this over the next two days.

Nid oes angen imi ateb y pwynt hwnnw, Alun, gan fy mod yn siŵr y bydd dadl ffyrnig am hyn dros y ddeuddydd nesaf.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 40

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

On the last point, people should be free to smoke provided that they do not pollute other people’s air. I am pleased, as we come to the end of developing a strategy for older people, to see the assistance given to Cruse Bereavement Care and to Care and Repair Cymru. Those services were highlighted in the consultation on developing a strategy for older people in Wales. It is important, as you said, that communities are increasingly becoming the prime focus for action to promote health and wellbeing, and the voluntary sector has a major role in that. Do you feel that it would be desirable for the voluntary sector to work with the private sector to achieve these objectives?

Ar y pwynt olaf, dylai pobl fod yn rhydd i ysmygu ar yr amod nad ydynt yn llygru awyr pobl eraill. Yr wyf yn falch, wrth i’r gwaith o ddatblygu strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn ddod i derfyn, o weld y cymorth a roddir i Cruse Bereavement Care ac i Gofal a Thrwsio Cymru. Amlygwyd y gwasanaethau hynny yn yr ymgynghoriad ar ddatblygu strategaeth i bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Mae’n bwysig, fel y dywedasoch, mai ar gymunedau y rhoddir y pwyslais yn gynyddol o safbwynt gweithgareddau hybu iechyd a lles, ac mae gan y sector gwirfoddol ran bwysig yn hynny o beth. A deimlwch y byddai’n ddymunol i’r sector gwirfoddol gydweithio â’r sector preifat i gyflawni’r amcanion hynny?

I saw an example of good practice in my constituency when I visited Network Training Services in Port Talbot last week. That company provides its employees with a £100 voucher to undertake healthy activities such as going to a gym or to assist in buying a bicycle. Is there more scope in these grants for the voluntary sector to work with the private sector to promote such good practice?

Gwelais enghraifft o arfer da yn fy etholaeth pan ymwelais â Network Training Services ym Mhort Talbot yr wythnos diwethaf. Bydd y cwmni hwnnw’n rhoi taleb o £100 i’w gyflogeion ymgymryd â gweithgareddau iach megis mynychu’r clwb iechyd neu gynorthwyo wrth brynu beic. A oes mwy o gyfle yn y grantiau hyn i’r sector gwirfoddol gydweithio â’r sector preifat i hyrwyddo arferion da fel hyn?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Network Training Services was the recipient of, I think, a bronze award for the corporate healthcare standard. I was pleased to award that some weeks ago. That award was developed with the Health Promotion Division of the National Assembly and the Health and Safety Executive. Many progressive employers in the public, private and voluntary sectors are working towards those corporate health standards. The Assembly has set targets in that regard. Network Training Services gave examples, as you said, of how it is enabling and engaging with its staff and it is particularly flexible about family-friendly working practices for its female employees, as well as about options to enable employees to take exercise, to undergo adult education, and to have time to themselves in the working week. We should embrace those initiatives. They are part of the development of corporate healthcare standards in Wales.

Credaf fod Network Training Services wedi derbyn gwobr efydd am safon ei ofal iechyd corfforaethol. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gyflwyno honno rai wythnosau yn ôl. Datblygwyd y wobr honno gydag Is-adran Hybu Iechyd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch. Mae llawer o gyflogwyr blaengar yn y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol yn gweithio tuag at y safonau iechyd corfforaethol hyn. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi gosod targedau yn ymwneud â hynny. Fel y dywedasoch, rhoddodd Network Training Services enghreifftiau o sut y mae’n galluogi staff ac yn trafod â hwy ac mae’n hyblyg iawn yn ei arferion gwaith sy’n ystyriol o deuluoedd ar gyfer merched sy’n gweithio iddo, yn ogystal â galluogi gweithwyr i ymgymryd ag ymarfer corff, addysg oedolion a chael amser iddynt eu hunain yn ystod yr wythnos waith. Dylem groesawu’r mentrau hynny. Maent yn rhan o ddatblygu safonau gofal iechyd corfforaethol yng Nghymru.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 41

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Before I turn to the business statement for the next three weeks, I inform Members of changes to this week’s business, which were discussed and agreed by the Business Committee this morning. In view of the Audit Committee’s continued consideration of the National Audit Office’s report ‘Managing the Estate of the NHS in Wales’, I agreed to withdraw the motion on NHS estates which was scheduled for debate today. It will be rescheduled in due course. In addition to the two statements that have been made this afternoon, the Minister for Economic Development will make a statement on Thursday on capital funding for a new waste paper reprocessing capacity at Shotton. Other business is as scheduled.

Cyn imi droi at y datganiad busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf, hysbysaf yr Aelodau o’r newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon, a drafodwyd ac a gytunwyd gan y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma. Gan fod y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn parhau i ystyried adroddiad y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol ‘Rheoli Ystad y GIG yng Nghymru’, cytunais i dynnu’r cynnig ar ystadau’r GIG yn ôl a oedd wedi ei drefnu ar gyfer dadl heddiw. Caiff ei aildrefnu maes o law. Yn ychwanegol at y ddau ddatganiad a wnaed y prynhawn yma, bydd y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn gwneud datganiad ddydd Iau ar gyllid cyfalaf ar gyfer gwaith ailbrosesu papur gwastraff newydd yn Shotton. Mae gweddill y busnes fel yr amserlen.

Regarding the next three weeks, the Business Committee agreed this morning that business would be as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. There are no determinations by the Deputy Presiding Officer under Standing Order No. 22.5 to report this week.

O ran y tair wythnos nesaf, cytunodd y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma y byddai busnes yn unol â’r hyn a ddangoswyd ar we’r Siambr o dan ddogfennau atodol. Nid oes unrhyw benderfyniadau gan y Dirprwy Lywydd o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5 i’w nodi yr wythnos hon.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 41

Nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu’r datganiad busnes, ond mae gennyf gwestiwn i’r Gweinidog. Deallaf, Weinidog, ichi roi’r rhesymau i’r Pwyllgor Busnes pam nad oedd yn briodol i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad fel y gofynnais yr wythnos diwethaf. Gan fod y rheswm hwnnw yn bodoli ddydd Iau diwethaf, a chan i’r Gweinidog wneud cyfweliad llawn â phapur newydd a ymddangosodd ddydd Gwener, a wnewch ailystyried y cyngor a roesoch i’r Pwyllgor Busnes? Onid yw’n briodol yn awr, yng ngoleuni’r ffaith bod y Gweinidog yn fodlon gwneud cyfweliad â phapur newydd, ond nad yw’n fodlon siarad â’r Cynulliad, i ailystyried, a gofyn iddo wneud datganiad ddydd Mawrth neu ddydd Iau nesaf?

I do not oppose the business statement, but I have a question for the Minister. I understand, Minister, that you presented the Business Committee with reasons as to why it was not appropriate for the Minister for Economic Development to make a statement to the Assembly as I requested last week. As that reason existed last Thursday, and as the Minister gave a full interview to a newspaper that appeared on Friday, will you reconsider the advice you gave to the Business Committee? Is it now not appropriate, in light of the fact that the Minister was willing to give an interview to a newspaper, but not willing to address the Assembly, to reconsider, and ask him to make a statement next Tuesday or Thursday?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 42

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Does the First Minister intend to make a statement to the Assembly apologising for his remarks this afternoon disclosing what he believed to be the Business Committee’s proceedings? As you have rightly said, Llywydd, those proceedings are confidential. Perhaps the First Minister will take this opportunity to apologise for his gross discourtesy—[Interruption.]

A yw’n fwriad gan Brif Weinidog Cymru wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad yn ymddiheuro am ei sylwadau y prynhawn yma yn datgelu yr hyn a gredai oedd trafodion y Pwyllgor Busnes? Fel y dywedasoch yn gywir, Lywydd, mae’r trafodion hynny yn gyfrinachol. Efallai y cymer y Prif Weinidog y cyfle hwn i ymddiheuro am ei anghwrteisi enfawr––[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Order. Jonathan Morgan is asking a question about the business statement.

Trefn. Mae Jonathan Morgan yn gofyn cwestiwn am y datganiad busnes.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 42

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Do you agree that it is imperative that the Minister for Economic Development makes a statement to Plenary, because of the discrepancies in information that Assembly Members and members of the press have received? I tabled a written question last Tuesday and, surprisingly enough, I have not received a reply to it. I asked whether the Minister for Economic Development had been informed that the Permanent Secretary had been in touch with South Wales Police, by any member of the Cabinet, Government, or civil service prior to his interview on Dragon’s Eye on 28 February. If the Government of Wales does not clear this up, the issue will drag on.

A gytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wneud datganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn, oherwydd yr anghysonderau yn y wybodaeth a roddwyd i Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac aelodau o’r wasg? Cyflwynais gwestiwn ysgrifenedig ddydd Mawrth diwethaf, ac er mawr syndod, ni chefais ateb iddo. Gofynnais a hysbyswyd y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, gan unrhyw aelod o’r Cabinet, y Llywodraeth neu’r gwasanaeth sifil bod yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol wedi cysylltu â Heddlu De Cymru, cyn ei gyfweliad ar Dragon’s Eye ar 28 Chwefror. Os na wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru egluro hyn, bydd y mater yn llusgo ymlaen.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 42

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

With reference to last Thursday’s Dragon’s Eye and the statement on Welsh chamber music, will you schedule time in Plenary, Minister, for Owen John Thomas and Jonathan Morgan to apologise for misleading the public on the funding of Welsh chamber music, particularly for failing to notice the statement by the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language to the Culture Committee on 5 December on this subject and for not reading the culture strategy, which clearly refers to it?

Yng ngyd-destun Dragon’s Eye ddydd Iau diwethaf a’r datganiad ar gerddoriaeth siambr Cymru, a drefnwch amser mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, Weinidog, i Owen John Thomas a Jonathan Morgan ymddiheuro am gamarwain y cyhoedd ar ariannu cerddoriaeth siambr Cymru, yn bennaf am fethu â sylwi ar y datganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant ar 5 Rhagfyr ar y pwnc hwn ac am beidio â darllen y strategaeth ddiwylliant sy’n cyfeirio’n glir ato?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Order. I ask Peter Black to reconsider his statement about misleading the public.

Trefn. Gofynnaf i Peter Black ailystyried ei ddatganiad am gamarwain y cyhoedd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 43

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I am not making an allegation about anything said in this Chamber. However, Owen John Thomas and Jonathan Morgan clearly stated on Dragon’s Eye that there was no reference to the matter in the culture strategy and that a statement had not been made on it to the Culture Committee. If they were not being misleading, then they were clearly mistaken.

Ni wnaf gyhuddiad am unrhyw beth a ddywedwyd yn y Siambr hon. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd Owen John Thomas a Jonathan Morgan yn eglur ar Dragon’s Eye nad oedd cyfeiriad at y mater yn y strategaeth ddiwylliant ac na wnaed datganiad arno i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant. Os nad oeddent yn camarwain, yna yr oeddynt yn amlwg wedi gwneud camgymeriad.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 43

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

On the funding of chamber music in Wales, Peter is right to refer to the statement made to the Culture Committee on 5 December. The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language will make a statement to the Committee tomorrow clarifying the position. Therefore, that statement will enlighten Committee members.

Ynglŷn ag ariannu cerddoriaeth siambr yng Nghymru, mae Peter yn gywir i gyfeirio at y datganiad a wnaed i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant ar 5 Rhagfyr. Bydd y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg yn gwneud datganiad i’r Pwyllgor yfory i egluro’r sefyllfa. Felly, bydd y datganiad hwnnw yn rhoi aelodau’r Pwyllgor ar ben y ffordd.

On Ieuan’s and Jonathan’s points this morning, I heard that Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservatives were referring this matter to the Committee on Standards of Conduct. If that is the case, as the leader of the Welsh Conservatives rightly pointed out on Radio Wales this morning, the matter is no longer in the public domain. If the matter has been reported, or if there is an intention to report it to the Committee on Standards of Conduct, there can be no further discussion of it here because it has been referred to be dealt with by a different procedure.

O ran pwyntiau Ieuan a Jonathan y bore yma, clywais fod Plaid Cymru a Cheidwadwyr Cymru yn cyfeirio’r mater hwn i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Os mai dyna’r achos, fel y nododd arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn gywir ar Radio Wales y bore yma, nid yw’r mater bellach yn fater cyhoeddus. Os yw’r mater wedi ei gyfeirio, neu os oes bwriad i’w gyfeirio i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, ni ellir ei drafod ymhellach yma gan ei fod wedi ei gyfeirio i’w drafod drwy weithdrefn wahanol.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 43

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.8 relating to Cabinet statements. Will the Government of Wales make a statement in the Chamber clarifying its position on funding allocated for a chamber orchestra in Wales? There are inconsistencies in the oral statements that have been made here.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.8 sy’n ymwneud â datganiadau’r Cabinet. A wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru ddatganiad yn y Siambr i egluro ei safbwynt ar yr arian a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer cerddorfa siambr yng Nghymru? Mae anghysondebau yn y datganiadau llafar a wnaed yma.

In November 2001, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities announced annual funding of around £150,000 for a chamber orchestra—specifically referring to ‘a chamber orchestra’, not a collection of chamber orchestras. In February this year, the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language, in response to an intervention by the Chair of the Culture Committee, stated that the money was being allocated to more than one orchestra. Between November 2001 and February 2002, the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language had every opportunity to announce this policy as part of her culture strategy, but did not take the opportunity to do so. Following policy announcements of this magnitude, Cabinet members usually jump up and down like yo-yos. Clearly, the line taken by Edwina Hart and Jenny Randerson is inconsistent.

Ym mis Tachwedd 2001, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau arian blynyddol o tua £150,000 ar gyfer cerddorfa siambr—gan gyfeirio’n benodol at ‘gerddorfa siambr’, nid casgliad o gerddorfeydd siambr. Ym mis Chwefror eleni, nododd y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, mewn ymateb i ymyriad gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, fod yr arian yn cael ei ddyrannu ar gyfer sawl cerddorfa. Rhwng Tachwedd 2001 a Chwefror 2002, cafodd y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg bob cyfle i gyhoeddi’r polisi hwn fel rhan o’i strategaeth diwylliant, ond ni fanteisiodd ar y cyfle i wneud hynny. Yn dilyn cyhoeddiadau polisi mor bwysig â hyn, mae aelodau’r Cabinet fel arfer yn neidio i fyny ac i lawr fel io-ios. Yn amlwg, mae’r safbwynt a arddelir gan Edwina Hart a Jenny Randerson yn anghyson.

We need to ask some serious questions and we can only do that through a statement or debate. There are serious implications for the Government of Wales in making its first announcement about by-passing the Arts Council of Wales and allocating money directly to an arts organisation. There are also questions about who decided that this funding should be allocated to a chamber orchestra year-on-year and why that decision was made. I urge the Government to make a statement in this Chamber as quickly as possible.

Mae angen inni ofyn rhai cwestiynau difrifol a thrwy ddatganiad neu ddadl yn unig y gallwn wneud hynny. Mae goblygiadau difrifol i Lywodraeth Cymru yn sgîl ei chyhoeddiad cyntaf am osgoi Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru a dyrannu’r arian yn uniongyrchol i sefydliad celfyddydol. Cyfyd cwestiynau hefyd ynglŷn â phwy benderfynodd y dylai’r arian hwn gael ei ddyrannu i gerddorfa siambr flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn a pham y gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwnnw. Anogaf y Llywodraeth i wneud datganiad yn y Siambr hon cyn gynted â phosibl.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 44

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

With respect, Llywydd, that is not a point of order, but I will address the two points that were made. The suggestion that nothing was said between November and February is wrong because it is clear that the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language reported on this matter to the Culture Committee on 5 December 2001. That is included in the minutes; it was certainly in the minutes this morning, because I checked them myself. Therefore, it is wrong to make that assertion.

Gyda pharch, Lywydd, nid yw hynny’n bwynt o drefn, ond ymdriniaf â’r ddau bwynt a wnaed. Mae’r awgrym na ddywedwyd unrhyw beth rhwng Tachwedd a Chwefror yn anghywir oherwydd mae’n amlwg bod y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg wedi hysbysu’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant am y mater hwn ar 5 Rhagfyr 2001. Cynhwysir hynny yn y cofnodion; yn sicr yr oedd yn y cofnodion y bore yma, oherwydd fe’u gwiriais fy hun. Felly, mae’n anghywir gwneud yr honiad hwnnw.

On the second point, I repeat what I said in my business statement: there will be a statement on this for the Culture Committee to consider tomorrow.

Ar yr ail bwynt, ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais yn fy natganiad busnes: bydd datganiad ar hyn i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant ei ystyried yfory.

Jonathan Morgan a gododd—

Jonathan Morgan rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

There can be nothing further to say on this. The Minister for Assembly Business has indicated that there will be a statement to the Culture Committee and that is that.

Nid oes dim byd arall i’w ddweud ar y mater hwn. Mae’r Trefnydd wedi nodi y bydd datganiad i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant ar hyn a dyna’r cyfan sydd i’w ddweud.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 45

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.11 concerning direct funding for a project that had not been fully monitored. I received a letter on this point from the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, in which she states that she stood ready to address this matter further and in public. I ask her, through you, Presiding Officer, when and where will she do that?

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.11 sy’n ymwneud ag ariannu uniongyrchol ar gyfer prosiect nad oedd wedi ei fonitro’n llawn. Derbyniais lythyr ar y pwynt hwn gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, lle y noda ei bod yn barod i ymdrin â’r mater hwn ymhellach ac yn gyhoeddus. Gofynnaf iddi, drwyddoch chi, Lywydd, pryd a ble y gwnaiff hynny?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Order. That is not a point of order. It is an attempt to use points of order, which relate to our Standing Orders and order in Plenary, to raise an issue that may or may not have been considered as a possible urgent question. I deprecate that.

Trefn. Nid yw hynny yn bwynt o drefn. Mae’n ymdrech i ddefnyddio pwyntiau o drefn, sy’n ymwneud â’n Rheolau Sefydlog a threfn mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, i godi mater a ystyriwyd, o bosibl, fel cwestiwn brys. Anghymeradwyaf hynny.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 45

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Further to my earlier point of order, I have been informed that the statement to the Culture Committee on 5 December pointed out that there would be an increase in orchestral performances, not an increase in orchestras. There have been inconsistencies between statements given to this Chamber in November last year and February this year. I seek your guidance, Llywydd, as to your responsibilities in monitoring those inconsistencies—[Interruption.]

Ymhellach i’m pwynt o drefn yn gynharach, fe’m hysbyswyd bod y datganiad i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant ar 5 Rhagfyr wedi nodi y byddai cynnydd mewn perfformiadau cerddorfaol, nid cynnydd mewn cerddorfeydd. Bu anghysondebau rhwng datganiadau a roddwyd i’r Siambr hon ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd a mis Chwefror eleni. Gofynnaf am arweiniad gennych, Lywydd, ar eich cyfrifoldebau wrth fonitro’r anghysondebau hynny—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Order. The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business has indicated that there will be a statement on this matter in the Culture Committee—tomorrow, I believe. The matter will be discussed in public at that time.

Trefn. Nododd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad y bydd datganiad ar y mater hwn yn y Pwyllgor Diwylliant—yfory, fe gredaf. Caiff y mater ei drafod yn gyhoeddus bryd hynny.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 45

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Point of order. I believe that this point of order is in order, Presiding Officer. I heard the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business state that he did not think that a matter was appropriate for discussion in Plenary. I have always held the view—and I am sure that the Minister will, on reflection, agree—that you as Presiding Officer are the guardian of our Standing Orders, the conduct of business, and what can be raised in the Chamber. Will you reflect on our exchanges on whether it is appropriate for matters to be discussed in this Chamber if they have been referred to the Committee on Standards of Conduct? Also, will you make a statement to Plenary on Thursday on the circumstances in which this matter can or cannot be raised?

Pwynt o drefn. Credaf fod y pwynt o drefn hwnnw mewn trefn, Lywydd. Clywais y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad yn nodi nad oedd yn credu bod mater yn briodol i’w drafod mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr wyf wedi arddel y farn erioed—ac yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff y Gweinidog gytuno, erbyn meddwl—mai chi fel y Llywydd yw gwarcheidwad ein Rheolau Sefydlog, yr un sy’n cadw rheolaeth ar fusnes a’r hyn y gellir ei godi yn y Siambr. A fyfyriwch ar yr hyn a ddywedwyd ar ba un a yw’n briodol i faterion gael eu trafod yn y Siambr hon os cawsant eu cyfeirio at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad? Hefyd, a wnewch chi ddatganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Iau ar yr amgylchiadau lle gellir codi’r mater hwn?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I am grateful to the leader of the opposition for his suggestion, but I have already made my views on this matter clear. Indeed, I did so before the First Minister’s statement last week, when I indicated that matters that are proceeding along the complaints route should be discussed in private, not in public. I regret the continued references to this matter in the media—some of which are accurate. I also regret that a procedure to support the good conduct of Assembly Members should become a matter of debate among Members in Plenary. The complaints procedure, carefully guarded by the Chair of the Committee on Standards of Conduct and the independent adviser, Richard Penn, is an independent procedure. I will receive a report in due course, and I will then have to decide whether these matters are matters for the Committee on Standards of Conduct. In the meantime, there is nothing to say on this subject.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i arweinydd yr wrthblaid am ei awgrym, ond yr wyf eisoes wedi mynegi fy marn yn glir ar y mater hwn. Yn wir, gwneuthum hynny cyn datganiad Prif Weinidog Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, pan nodais y dylai materion sy’n dilyn y drefn gwyno gael eu trafod yn breifat, nid yn gyhoeddus. Gresynaf at y cyfeiriadau parhaus at y mater hwn yn y cyfryngau—y mae rhai ohonynt yn gywir. Gresynaf hefyd y dylai gweithdrefn i gefnogi ymddygiad da Aelodau’r Cynulliad droi’n ddadl ymhlith yr Aelodau mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae’r weithdrefn gwyno, a warchodir yn ofalus gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor ar Safonau Ymddygiad a’r ymgynghorydd annibynnol, Richard Penn, yn weithdrefn annibynnol. Caf adroddiad maes o law, ac yna bydd yn rhaid imi benderfynu a yw’r materion hyn yn faterion i’r Pwyllgor ar Safonau Ymddygiad. Yn y cyfamser, nid oes dim i’w ddweud ar y pwnc hwn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 46

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Point of order. This relates to the working of the Business Committee. We have glossed over this point, but it is important. The First Minister, perhaps inadvertently, sought to disclose what had taken place in the Business Committee. Under Standing Orders, that Committee operates in private. I hope that the First Minister will reconsider his remarks and apologise for references to what he thinks may have happened in that Committee.

Pwynt o drefn. Mae’r pwynt hwn yn ymwneud â gwaith y Pwyllgor Busnes. Yr ydym wedi diystyru’r pwynt hwn, ond mae’n bwysig. Ceisiodd Brif Weinidog Cymru, yn ddiofal efallai, ddatgelu’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. O dan Reolau Sefydlog, gweithreda’r Pwyllgor hwnnw yn breifat. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn ailystyried ei sylwadau ac yn ymddiheuro am gyfeiriadau at yr hyn a ddigwyddodd efallai yn y Pwyllgor hwnnw yn ei farn ef.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I have already indicated the importance of the confidentiality of the Business Committee’s proceedings. The matter rests.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi nodi pwysigrwydd cyfrinachedd trafodion y Pwyllgor Busnes. Dyna ddiwedd ar y mater.

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion

Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 47

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Grantiau Cyfalaf) (Cymru) 2002

Approval of the Education (Capital Grants) (Wales) Regulations 2002

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 49

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 49

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 49

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

These regulations allow the Assembly to grant capital monies to local education authorities in Wales, specifically for investment in schools at a rate of 100 per cent of approved expenditure. Such power was previously included in the grants for education support and training regulation. The regulations specify the purposes for which monies granted by the Assembly for capital investment in education may be spent. They allow for payment of the schools buildings improvement grant, a direct replacement for the New Deal for Schools and additional capital funding schemes that end on 31 March 2002. Funding of £36.475 million will be provided in 2002-03 and budget plans allow for an increase to £42.725 million in 2003-04 and onward. The school buildings improvement grant is one constituent element in the National Assembly’s programme of capital investment in schools, to which the Assembly Government attaches an extremely high priority. ‘Betterwales.com’ set the objective that all schools will be in good physical shape and properly maintained by 2010. Significant levels of investment are required to meet this target. The National Assembly budget for 2002-03 and plans for 2003-04 and 2004-05 identify £314 million for capital investment in schools. That includes funding through general capital funding allocations to local authorities, the school buildings improvement grant and the voluntary aided schools programme. This, by anyone’s reckoning, is a significant investment in our school stock. Investigation into levels of need will continue and future budget planning rounds will be informed by the latest intelligence.

Caniatâ’r rheoliadau hyn i’r Cynulliad ganiatáu arian cyfalaf i awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru, yn benodol i’w fuddsoddi mewn ysgolion ar gyfradd o 100 y cant o wariant cymeradwy. Cynhwyswyd pŵer o’r fath yn flaenorol o fewn rheoliadau’r grantiau cynnal addysg a hyfforddiant. Noda’r rheoliadau at ba ddibenion y gellir gwario arian a ganiateir gan y Cynulliad ar gyfer buddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn addysg. Maent yn caniatáu i grantiau gwella adeiladau ysgolion gael eu talu, taliad uniongyrchol yn lle’r Fargen Newydd ar gyfer Ysgolion a chynlluniau ariannu cyfalaf ychwanegol a ddaw i ben ar 31 Mawrth 2002. Darperir cyllid o £36.475 miliwn yn 2002-03 ac mae cynlluniau cyllidebol yn caniatáu ar gyfer cynnydd i £42.725 miliwn yn 2003-04 a thu hwnt. Mae’r grant gwella adeiladau ysgolion yn un elfen o raglen y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o fuddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn ysgolion, y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel iawn iddi. Gosododd ‘Gwellcymru.com’ y nod y bydd pob ysgol mewn cyflwr da ac wedi eu cynnal yn briodol erbyn 2010. Mae angen buddsoddi symiau sylweddol er mwyn cyrraedd y targed hwn. Noda gyllideb y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar gyfer 2002-03 a’r cynlluniau ar gyfer 2003-04 a 2004-05 £314 miliwn ar gyfer buddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn ysgolion. Mae hynny’n cynnwys arian drwy ddyraniadau arian cyfalaf cyffredinol i awdurdodau lleol, y grant gwella adeiladau ysgolion a’r rhaglen ysgolion a gynorthwyir yn wirfoddol. Mae hyn, fel y gall unrhyw un farnu, yn fuddsoddiad sylweddol yn ein hysgolion. Bydd ymchwilio i’r lefelau o angen yn parhau a chaiff cylchoedd cynllunio cyllidebau yn y dyfodol eu llywio gan y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf.

Local authorities are best placed to determine the needs of their schools and to facilitate the required work to bring them up to standard. The Assembly will continue to foster ever-closer links with local education authorities in order to improve schools in Wales to a condition that our children deserve. Local authorities and other organisations were consulted on these regulations in draft and they have been amended in light of responses. I commend the motion to you.

Yr awdurdodau lleol sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benderfynu ar anghenion eu hysgolion ac i hwyluso’r gwaith y mae angen ei wneud er mwyn cyrraedd y safon. Bydd y Cynulliad yn parhau i feithrin cysylltiadau hyd yn oed agosach ag awdurdodau addysg lleol er mwyn gwella ysgolion yng Nghymru i gyflwr y mae ein plant yn ei haeddu. Ymgynghorwyd ag awdurdodau lleol a sefydliadau eraill ar y rheoliadau drafft hyn ac fe’u diwygiwyd yng ngoleuni’r ymatebion. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i chi.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 50

Sylwais nad oes cyfeiriad penodol yn y rheoliadau at symiau o arian. Derbyniaf, felly, fod y rheoliadau yn ymwneud â’r broses o ariannu cyfalaf. Y mae gennyf dri chwestiwn penodol ar hyn. A fydd y rheoliadau’n cynyddu neu’n lleihau y baich biwrocrataidd presennol ar awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion? A fydd y rheoliadau’n hwyluso’r broses o ddyrannu cyfalaf i ysgolion unigol yn ôl yr angen? Yn y dyfodol, a fydd y rheoliadau rwystro tanwariant sylweddol, fel a gafwyd y llynedd?

I noticed that there is no specific reference to sums of money in the regulations. Therefore, I accept that the regulations refer to the process of capital funding. I have three specific questions on this. Will the regulations increase or lessen the current bureaucratic burden on local authorities and schools? Will the regulations facilitate the process of distributing capital to individual schools as needed? In future, will the regulations prevent considerable underspending, as was encountered last year?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

The Liberal Democrats wholeheartedly welcome this funding to upgrade school buildings in Wales. It is another example of the partnership Government delivering and reversing a generation of Tory Government-inspired decline.

Croesawa’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yr arian hwn yn galonnog i uwchraddio adeiladau ysgolion yng Nghymru. Mae’n enghraifft arall o’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn cyflwyno ac yn gwrthdroi cenhedlaeth o ddirywiad a ysbrydolwyd gan Lywodraeth Dorïaidd.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 51

Dywedwch eich bod yn croesawu’r arian a glustnodir yn y rheoliadau. Fodd bynnag, ni welaf unrhyw gyfeiriad at bunt, heb son am swm sylweddol o arian. Pa arian yr ydych chi’n ei groesawu? Nid yw’r hyn a ddywedwch yn berthnasol i’r hyn a drafodwn.

You say that you welcome the funding that is earmarked in the regulations. However, I do not see any reference to a pound, let alone a significant amount of money. What money do you welcome? What you say is not relevant to what we are debating.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I welcome the partnership commitment to the £293 million. I am sure that if Plaid Cymru were in power—or whenever it will be in power, which is never—it would have offered more money. Thank you for your brief statement, Gareth. It was so interesting. However, returning to the Tories—

Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad partneriaeth i’r £293 miliwn. Yr wyf yn siŵr pe bai Plaid Cymru mewn grym—neu pryd bynnag y bydd mewn grym, sef byth—y byddai wedi cynnig mwy o arian. Diolch ichi am eich datganiad byr, Gareth. Yr oedd mor ddiddorol. Fodd bynnag, i ddychwelyd at y Torïaid—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 51

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Your favourite topic.

Eich hoff bwnc.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Absolutely. The Tories—

Yn wir. Y Torïaid—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 51

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Your only topic.

Eich unig bwnc.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Order. If the leader of the Welsh Conservatives is seeking to intervene on Mick Bates, will he do so properly?

Trefn. Os yw arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn ceisio gwneud ymyriad, a wnaiff hynny yn y modd priodol?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 51

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I am grateful to Mick Bates for giving way. Unfortunately, he is obviously reading from his briefing notes rather than the Regulations, as we have established. Can we hear some Liberal Democrat policies on this matter, rather than their reviews—usually erroneous—of our policies?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Mick Bates am ildio. Yn anffodus, mae’n amlwg yn darllen ei nodiadau briffio yn hytrach na’r Rheoliadau, fel yr ydym wedi cadarnhau. A allwn glywed rhai o bolisïau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar y mater hwn, yn hytrach na’u hadolygiadau—sydd fel arfer yn anghywir—o’n polisïau?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Thank you for the invitation to do that, but there is no time to outline our full education policy now. As the only party that made a full commitment to this in our manifesto—unlike the Welsh Conservatives—I am sure you realise that.

Diolch ichi am y gwahoddiad i wneud hynny, ond nid oes amser i amlinellu ein polisi addysg llawn yn awr. Fel yr unig blaid a wnaeth ymrwymiad llawn i hyn yn ein maniffesto—yn wahanol i Geidwadwyr Cymru—yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn sylweddoli hynny.

Rod Richards a gododd—

Rod Richards rose—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

However, at last, this will reverse the decline in the standards of our school buildings. All of us could take someone to any school in our constituencies to show them the poor standards of our buildings, and I hope—

Fodd bynnag, o’r diwedd, bydd hyn yn gwrthdroi’r dirywiad yn safon adeiladau ein hysgolion. Gallai unrhyw un ohonom fynd â rhywun i unrhyw ysgol yn ein hetholaethau i ddangos safon wael ein hadeiladau iddynt, a gobeithiaf—

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 52

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Will the Member give way?

A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Order. Mick Bates is not giving way to you.

Trefn. Nid yw Mick Bates yn ildio i chi.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 52

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I only want to clarify what he said.

Dim ond eisiau egluro’r hyn a ddywedodd yr wyf fi.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Order. Mick Bates is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw Mick Bates yn ildio.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 52

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Is he afraid, Llywydd?

A oes arno ofn, Lywydd?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

In that case, I accept Rod’s challenge.

Yn yr achos hwnnw, derbyniaf her Rod.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 52

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am grateful to the Member for giving way so gracefully. [Laughter.] I point out to the Member that the capital grants put in place by Conservative governments over 18 years were continually—every single year—underspent by the local education authorities in Wales. We are talking about dozens of millions of pounds. Since the Conservative Party did not control any of those local education authorities, who would the Member like to blame for that?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelod am ildio mewn modd mor osgeiddig. [Chwerthin.] Egluraf wrth yr Aelod fod y grantiau cyfalaf a roddwyd ar waith gan lywodraethau Ceidwadol dros 18 mlynedd yn cael eu tanwario’n barhaus—bob blwyddyn—gan yr awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn sôn am ddwsinau o filiynau o bunnoedd. Gan nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol yn rheoli unrhyw un o’r awdurdodau addysg lleol hynny, pwy fyddai’r Aelod yn dymuno ei feio am hynny?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

You, obviously. It is amazing to see the strong vein of hypocrisy that now runs through the Assembly, and your seemingly selective amnesia. In that case, those governments should have done more to ensure that the money was spent. That is your responsibility. Finally—[Interruption.]

Chi, yn amlwg. Mae’n rhyfeddol gweld y wythïen gref o ragrith sy’n rhedeg drwy’r Cynulliad, a’r amnesia detholedig sydd gennych yn ôl pob tebyg. Os felly, dylai’r llywodraethau hynny fod wedi gwneud mwy i sicrhau bod yr arian yn cael ei wario. Dyna eich cyfrifoldeb. I gloi—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order. Mick Bates is concluding his speech.

Trefn. Mae Mick Bates yn dod â’i araith i ben.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I join the Minister in welcoming these Regulations and the accompanying funding.

Hoffwn ymuno â’r Gweinidog wrth groesawu’r Rheoliadau hyn a’r arian sy’n gysylltiedig â hwy.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 53

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I do not think that that will get you closer to the Cabinet, somehow.

Rhywsut, ni chredaf y bydd hynny yn eich rhoi yn agosach at y Cabinet.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 53

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

It is always good to listen to the detailed contributions of Liberal Democrat Members. I have a few questions for the Minister, but first, I take issue with her comment that local education authorities are best placed to determine what their schools need. Headteachers, governors, and teachers are best placed to do that, not local education authorities. We hope that this money is truly ring-fenced, and that LEAs will have to display that they have increased their overall school buildings maintenance grant expenditure by the total sums that the Assembly has allocated.

Mae bob amser yn dda gwrando ar gyfraniadau manwl Aelodau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae gennyf rai cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog, ond yn gyntaf, hoffwn ddadlau ynghylch ei sylw mai awdurdodau addysg lleol sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benderfynu beth sydd ei angen ar eu hysgolion. Penaethiaid, llywodraethwyr ac athrawon sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i wneud hynny, nid awdurdodau addysg lleol. Gobeithiwn y caiff yr arian hwn ei neilltuo’n benodol, ac y bydd awdurdodau addysg lleol yn gorfod dangos eu bod wedi cynyddu gwariant eu grant cynnal a chadw adeiladau ysgolion cyffredinol yn ôl y cyfansymiau a ddyrannwyd gan y Cynulliad.

I ask that the Government of Wales considers incorporating as much flexibility as possible to determine its own requirements, because schools know what building projects need to be undertaken.

Gofynnaf i Lywodraeth Cymru ystyried ymgorffori cymaint o hyblygrwydd â phosibl er mwyn penderfynu ar ei gofynion ei hun, oherwydd gŵyr yr ysgolion pa brosiectau adeiladu y mae angen ymgymryd â hwy.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 53

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

On your comments about LEAs, are you arguing that there is no need for strategic planning for education within local authorities? Do you think that every school should look after its own resources, plan its own future, without any consideration for the need to have policies developed on local authority boundary issues?

O ran eich sylwadau ar awdurdodau addysg lleol, a ydych yn dadlau nad oes angen cynllunio strategol ar gyfer addysg o fewn awdurdodau lleol? A gredwch y dylai pob ysgol ofalu am ei hadnoddau ei hun, cynllunio ar gyfer ei dyfodol ei hun, heb roi unrhyw ystyriaeth i’r angen i gael polisïau wedi eu datblygu ar faterion ffiniau awdurdodau lleol?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 53

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

That issue is separate to rebuilding schools, fixing schoolrooms, and replacing windows. What I am getting at is that schools know their own priorities. They know which parts of their buildings need to be replaced, whether they need new annexes, new floors, ceilings, windows or whatever. Schools know how to determine their own priorities. Whatever the levels of our investment, if we are increasing those levels, schools should have that money to determine how to spend it to their best advantage.

Mae’r mater hwnnw ar wahân i ailadeiladu ysgolion, atgyweirio ystafelloedd dosbarth, a gosod ffenestri newydd. Yr hyn yr wyf yn ceisio ei ddweud yw y gŵyr ysgolion eu blaenoriaethau eu hunain. Gwyddant ba rannau o’u hadeiladau y mae angen eu hadnewyddu, pa un a oes angen ychwanegiadau newydd arnynt, lloriau newydd, nenfydau, ffenestri neu beth bynnag. Gŵyr ysgolion sut i benderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau eu hunain. Beth bynnag fo lefelau ein buddsoddiad, os ydym yn cynyddu’r lefelau hynny, dylai ysgolion gael yr arian hwnnw i benderfynu sut i wario’r arian yn y ffordd orau.

I can list countless schools in my constituency and throughout Wales, where the LEAs centrally retain substantial portions of school maintenance budgets to pay for larger projects as and when they arise. The problem with that arrangement is that it deprives local schools from having access to the full amount of money. It would be far better for us to allocate more of that money directly to schools. I accept that in some cases it is sensible for the LEA to retain a certain amount centrally, but that should not be the lion’s share of the budget. The lion’s share should go directly to schools for them to determine their own priorities.

Gallaf restru ysgolion di-rif yn fy etholaeth i a ledled Cymru, lle mae’r awdurdodau addysg lleol yn cadw rhannau sylweddol o gyllidebau cynnal a chadw ysgolion yn ganolog i dalu am brosiectau mwy wrth iddynt godi. Y broblem gyda’r trefniant hwnnw yw ei fod yn amddifadu ysgolion lleol o fanteisio ar y swm arian llawn. Byddai’n well o lawer inni ddyrannu mwy o’r arian hwnnw yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion. Derbyniaf ei fod yn synhwyrol mewn rhai achosion i’r awdurdod addysg lleol gadw rhywfaint o’r arian yn ganolog, ond nid y rhan fwyaf o’r gyllideb ddylai hynny fod. Dylai’r rhan fwyaf fynd yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion fel y gallant benderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau eu hunain.

On the second part of the grant, relating to ICT equipment, we welcome this strongly as it forms part of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee’s ICT strategy, which was formulated many months ago. How is the Government of Wales encouraging schools to interact with the private sector, which is best placed to provide the equipment, infrastructure, and know-how? The private sector has far more experience of dealing with ICT infrastructure than the public sector. We must get the private sector on board to ensure that our schools benefit fully from the knowledge that is currently available. I hope to hear favourable comments from the Minister on that.

O ran ail ran y grant, sy’n ymwneud â chyfarpar TGCh, croesawn y strategaeth hon yn gryf gan ei bod yn ffurfio rhan o strategaeth TGCh y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a luniwyd sawl mis yn ôl. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn annog ysgolion i ryngweithio â’r sector preifat, sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i ddarparu’r cyfarpar, y seilwaith a’r gallu? Mae gan y sector preifat mwy o brofiad o lawer o ddelio â seilwaith TGCh na’r sector cyhoeddus. Rhaid inni gynnwys y sector preifat er mwyn sicrhau bod ein hysgolion yn elwa’n llawn ar y wybodaeth sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd. Gobeithiaf glywed sylwadau ffafriol gan y Gweinidog ar hynny.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 54

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Gareth, you are right; the regulations are about the process. We are bringing two individual grant regimes together in a much clearer way for everybody. It will not have a direct bureaucratic burden one way or the other. It is not about money that goes directly schools. It makes it much easier for everybody to understand the framework and the grant awarding process. Obviously, I am keeping a close eye on underspend in capital allocations, particularly since we are investing so much money. We may well end up in a position whereby we will have to review that upwards, as I said in my opening speech. However, we must review it upwards if we are getting the spend out through the door. It is important for local education authorities to spend the allocated money. We have a different environment from last year because now, local education authorities know that this money is coming year on year. That makes a big difference in terms of ensuring that they can plan effectively for the future.

Gareth, yr ydych yn iawn; mae a wnelo’r rheoliadau â’r broses. Yr ydym yn dod â dwy gyfundrefn grantiau unigol ynghyd mewn ffordd sy’n gliriach o lawer i bawb. Ni fydd yn rhoi baich biwrocrataidd uniongyrchol ar y naill na’r llall. Nid yw a wnelo ag arian sy’n mynd yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion. Mae’n ei gwneud yn haws o lawer i bawb ddeall y fframwaith a’r broses dyfarnu grantiau. Yn amlwg, cadwaf lygad barcud ar danwariant mewn dyraniadau cyfalaf, yn arbennig gan ein bod yn buddsoddi cymaint o arian. Efallai y byddwn mewn sefyllfa yn y pen draw lle y bydd yn rhaid inni gynyddu hynny, fel y dywedais yn fy araith agoriadol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ei gynyddu os caiff yr arian hwnnw ei wario. Mae’n bwysig bod awdurdodau addysg lleol yn gwario’r arian a ddyrannwyd. Mae gennym amgylchedd gwahanol i un y llynedd oherwydd gŵyr awdurdodau addysg lleol yn awr fod yr arian hwn yn dod flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Gwnaiff hynny wahaniaeth mawr o ran sicrhau y gallant gynllunio’n effeithiol ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Mick, I welcome your welcome.

Mick, croesawaf eich croeso.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 55

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

What more can you say? [Laughter.]

Beth yn rhagor y gallwch ei ddweud? [Chwerthin.]

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 55

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Rod, in a sense, you were answered in the interventions. We discussed capital grants through underspends by the Conservative Government. At that same time, local education authorities the length and breadth of Wales were desperate for money to tackle not so much their capital investment as capital disinvestment. We have put substantial extra money into capital investment since 1997 and will continue to do so. I continue to work with the Committee in terms of monitoring that spend.

Rod, mewn un ystyr, cawsoch eich ateb yn yr ymyriadau. Trafodasom grantiau cyfalaf drwy danwariant gan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Ar yr un pryd, yr oedd awdurdodau addysg lleol ar hyd a lled Cymru yn ymbil am arian i fynd i’r afael nid yn gymaint â’u buddsoddiad cyfalaf ond â’u dadfuddsoddiad cyfalaf. Mae swm sylweddol o arian ychwanegol wedi ei ryddhau gennym ar gyfer buddsoddiad cyfalaf ers 1997 a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny. Parhaf i weithio gyda’r Pwyllgor o ran monitro’r gwariant hwnnw.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 55

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

You make the point for me. The education authorities were desperate to spend more of their allocated capital grants. However, the local authorities did not allow them to do that. We saw a continual underspend on the education capital budget year on year. I see that you are shaking your head. I suggest that you look back at the data. In fact, I will help you and table a question for you to get the data from your officials.

Yr ydych yn gwneud y pwynt ar fy rhan. Yr oedd yr awdurdodau addysg yn awyddus iawn i wario mwy o’r grantiau cyfalaf a ddyrannwyd iddynt. Fodd bynnag, ni chaniataodd yr awdurdodau lleol iddynt wneud hynny. Gwelsom danwariant parhaus ar y gyllideb cyfalaf addysg flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Gwelaf eich bod yn ysgwyd eich pen. Awgrymaf y dylech ailedrych ar y data. A dweud y gwir, fe’ch helpaf drwy gyflwyno cwestiwn i chi fel y gallwch gael y data gan eich swyddogion.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 55

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I do not know if other Members had a similar lack of understanding as to how you should separate education authorities from local authorities. Education authorities are local authorities and we continue to support them in Wales.

Ni wn a oedd Aelodau eraill yn yr un modd yn methu â deall sut y dylech wahanu awdurdodau addysg oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol. Awdurdodau lleol yw awdurdodau addysg a pharhawn i’w cefnogi yng Nghymru.

On Jonathan’s point, we have always argued and maintain that local education authorities are best placed to assess major capital investments in schools, not least because they can take the strategic overview, but also because we require them to provide asset management plans to ensure that the money is spent wisely in our local authorities. This money is not going into school budgets; it is going to local education authorities for capital expenditure in schools. I think that you have totally misread the regulations, which contain only two key clauses on the purposes for which the grants are available. They are not available for capital equipment in ICT, which is specifically excluded from these regulations. These regulations are focused on the improvement, renovation, or replacement of buildings, furniture and equipment used for educational purposes, and the provision and installation of cabling for ICT as part of such improvement, but not the provision and installation of the equipment itself. I ask Members to support the regulations.

O ran pwynt Jonathan, yr ydym bob amser wedi dadlau a honni mai awdurdodau addysg lleol yw’r rhai sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i asesu buddsoddiadau cyfalaf mawr mewn ysgolion, yn bennaf oherwydd gallant gymryd y trosolwg strategol, ond hefyd am ein bod yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol iddynt ddarparu cynlluniau rheoli asedion er mwyn sicrhau y caiff yr arian ei wario yn ddoeth yn ein hawdurdodau lleol. Ni neilltuir yr arian hwn ar gyfer cyllidebau ysgolion; fe’i neilltuir ar gyfer awdurdodau addysg lleol ar gyfer gwariant cyfalaf mewn ysgolion. Credaf eich bod wedi camddarllen y rheoliadau yn gyfan gwbl, sydd ond yn cynnwys dau gymal allweddol ar y dibenion y mae’r grantiau ar gael ar eu cyfer. Nid ydynt ar gael ar gyfer cyfarpar cyfalaf mewn TGCh, a eithrir yn benodol o’r rheoliadau hyn. Canolbwyntia’r rheoliadau hyn ar wella ac adnewyddu, neu brynu o’r newydd, adeiladau, dodrefn a chyfarpar a ddefnyddir at ddibenion addysgol a darparu a gosod ceblau ar gyfer TGCh fel rhan o welliant o’r fath, ond nid darparu a gosod y cyfarpar ei hun. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau gefnogi’r rheoliadau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 56

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 56

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Rheoliadau.

We will now vote on the principle of the Regulations.

Cynnig NDM983 Jane Davidson t. 56

Motion NDM983 Jane Davidson p. 56

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 57

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on approving the Order.

Cynnig NDM984 Jane Davidson t. 57

Motion NDM984 Jane Davidson p. 57

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.57 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.57 p.m.

Cymeradwyo’r Newidiadau i’r Prif Grwpiau Gwariant

Approval of Changes to the Main Expenditure Groups

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 58

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 58

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Most of these changes are technical, but I have taken the opportunity to add around £104 million to the Assembly’s budget for the current year. Details of these changes are set out in the tables attached to the motion and the accompanying notes.

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r newidiadau hyn yn dechnegol, ond manteisiais ar y cyfle i ychwanegu tua £104 miliwn at gyllideb y Cynulliad am y flwyddyn gyfredol. Nodir manylion y newidiadau hyn yn y tablau sydd ynghlwm wrth y cynnig a’r nodiadau cysylltiedig.

In addition to the five transfers included in table 1 to the motion, I have recently approved a request from the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language and the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to transfer £62,000 for the dance and drama scheme from the culture, sport and Welsh language main expenditure group to the education and lifelong learning main expenditure group. In accordance with Standing Order No. 19, which states that in cases of urgency the Minister for Finance will inform the Assembly as soon as is reasonably practical, I am taking this opportunity to inform the Assembly of this action. I will arrange for the two Subject Committees to be advised of this change.

Yn ogystal â’r pum trosglwyddiad a gynhwysir yn nhabl 1 i’r cynnig, cymeradwyais gais yn ddiweddar gan y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg a’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i drosglwyddo £62,000 ar gyfer y cynllun dawns a drama o’r prif grŵp gwariant ar ddiwylliant, chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg i’r prif grŵp gwariant ar addysg a dysgu gydol oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19, sy’n nodi y bydd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid yn hysbysu’r Cynulliad cyn gynted ag y bo’n ymarferol resymol mewn achosion brys, manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i hysbysu’r Cynulliad o’r weithred hon. Byddaf yn trefnu i’r ddau Bwyllgor Pwnc gael eu hysbysu o’r newid hwn.

I take this opportunity to confirm that reducing underspending across the Assembly budget is one of my main objectives. I met Cabinet colleagues in January, when actual spend during the first nine months was available, to discuss full-year expenditure during this financial year on the activities for which they have responsibility. These meetings provided an opportunity to consider whether any end-year flexibility provision needed to be drawn down. Consequently, only £70 million of end-year flexibility has been drawn down via a spring supplementary estimate. Some £67 million is for the health and social services main expenditure group, of which £40 million is to cover the cost of the capital renewals programme that I announced during last year’s budget planning round, and which I advised would be funded from end-year flexibility provision. The other resources are to meet in-year pressures on this main expenditure group. The remaining £3 million is for the culture, sport and Welsh language main expenditure group, and is mainly to cover the cost of the Wales Millennium Centre which, I believe, Jenny, is not going via the Arts Council of Wales. As Members are aware, the Assembly’s contribution to this project—£37 million—is being funded from end-year flexibility provision.

Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i gadarnhau mai lleihau tanwariant ar draws cyllideb y Cynulliad yw un o’m prif amcanion. Cyfarfûm â chyd-Aelodau’r Cabinet ym mis Ionawr, pan oedd y gwariant gwirioneddol yn ystod y naw mis cyntaf ar gael, i drafod gwariant blwyddyn lawn yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol hon ar y gweithgareddau y maent yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Darparodd y cyfarfodydd hyn gyfle i ystyried a oedd angen defnyddio unrhyw ddarpariaeth o ran hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn. O ganlyniad, dim ond £70 miliwn o hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn a ddefnyddiwyd drwy gyfrwng amcangyfrif atodol y gwanwyn. Mae tua £67 miliwn ar gyfer y prif grŵp gwariant ar iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, y neilltuwyd £40 miliwn ohono i dalu am gost y rhaglen adnewyddu cyfalaf a gyhoeddais yn ystod cylch cynllunio cyllideb y llynedd, ac a ddywedais y câi ei ariannu o ddarpariaeth hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn. Diben yr adnoddau eraill yw ateb y pwysau yn ystod y flwyddyn ar y prif grŵp gwariant hwn. Mae’r £3 miliwn sy’n weddill ar gyfer y prif grŵp gwariant ar ddiwylliant, chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg ac, yn bennaf, ei ddiben yw talu cost Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru, nad yw, fe gredaf Jenny, yn mynd drwy Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, caiff cyfraniad y Cynulliad i’r prosiect hwn—£37 miliwn—ei ariannu o ddarpariaeth hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn.

I am confident that the underspend at the end of this financial year will be significantly lower than the 3.3 per cent at the end of the last financial year. As usual, I will write to all Assembly Members with details of expenditure during the 2001-02 financial year, including underspends by main expenditure groups as soon as reasonably final figures are available. A fully updated list of revised budgets for this financial year will appear on the management information system tomorrow.

Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y tanwariant ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn ariannol hon yn sylweddol is na’r 3.3 y cant ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf. Fel arfer, byddaf yn ysgrifennu at bob Aelod Cynulliad gyda manylion y gwariant yn ystod blwyddyn ariannol 2001-02, gan gynnwys tanwariant gan y prif grwpiau gwariant cyn gynted ag y bydd ffigurau cymharol derfynol ar gael. Bydd rhestr wedi ei diweddaru’n llawn o gyllidebau diwygiedig ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon yn ymddangos ar y system gwybodaeth rheoli yfory.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 60

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 60

Derbyniaf fod eich sylwadau yn cyfeirio at newidiadau technegol. Serch hynny, y mae un neu ddau o bwyntiau y mae’n werth eu codi gyda chi.

I accept that your comments refer to technical changes. However, one or two points are worth raising with you.

Yn gyntaf, pan fo arian ar gael oherwydd tanwario—a derbyniaf bwysigrwydd sicrhau y caiff yr arian sydd ar gael ei wario o fewn y flwyddyn ariannol—a phan roddir ystyriaeth i ailddefnyddio arian, beth yw’r drefn i nodi prosiectau o wahanol adrannau i’w hystyried ar gyfer yr arian hwnnw? Er enghraifft, a roddwyd unrhyw ystyriaeth i’r angen am £8.7 miliwn ar y gwasanaeth ambiwlans er mwyn codi’r gyfradd ymateb o fewn wyth munud o 50 y cant i 75 y cant? Nid wyf eisiau dadlau rhes o achosion, ond beth yw’r broses ar gyfer penderfynu a gaiff eitem fel hon ystyriaeth? Cymeraf hefyd, yng ngoleuni rhai o’r sylwadau y prynhawn yma, a’r wythnos diwethaf, y bydd y Gweinidog yn ystyried sut i ddelio ag unrhyw geisiadau am arian sy’n dod iddi i’w ddarparu’n uniongyrchol ar gyfer gweithgareddau gan grwpiau megis cerddorfeydd, a fu dan sylw. Yn amlwg, mae ar Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad a chyrff fel Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru angen gwybod beth yw’r drefn. Croesawaf ddiddordeb y Gweinidog, a’i pharodrwydd i roi arian i’r celfyddydau, ond mae arnom angen deall y broses.

First, when money is available because of underspend—and I accept the importance of ensuring that the money available is spent within the financial year—and when consideration is given to reusing money, what is the procedure for noting projects from different departments to be considered for this money? For example, was any consideration given to the ambulance service’s need for £8.7 million to raise the response rate within eight minutes from 50 per cent to 75 per cent? I do not want to argue a list of cases, but what is the process for deciding whether such an item is given consideration? I take it also, in the light of some of the comments made this afternoon, and last week, that the Minister will consider how to deal with any applications for money to be provided directly for activities by groups such as orchestras, which has been mentioned. Obviously, Assembly Committees and organisations such as the Arts Council of Wales need to now what the procedure is. I welcome the Minister’s interest, and her willingness to give money to the arts, but we need to understand the process.

O ran y sefyllfa y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei darogan erbyn diwedd y mis hwn, a all roi amcangyfrif heddiw o gyfanswm yr arian a fydd gennym wrth gefn, er mwyn inni gael syniad o faint fydd ar gael ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf?

On the situation which the Minster predicts for the end of this month, can she give an estimate today of the total sum of money that we will have in reserve, so that we can have some idea of how much will be available for next year?

Yn olaf, tynnaf sylw’r Gweinidog at yr adroddiad ar dudalen 3 y Financial Times heddiw, sy’n cyfeirio at wahaniaeth barn rhwng yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a’r Trysorlys. Mae’r Trysorlys yn ceisio adhawlio £1 biliwn nas gwariwyd gan yr adran. A oes unrhyw oblygiadau i’r Cynulliad o feddylfryd y Trysorlys wrth geisio adfachu arian gan adrannau? A allai hynny fod yn berthnasol i’n sefyllfa ni yng Nghymru, o leiaf o safbwynt rhai elfennau o’n cyllideb?

Finally, I draw the Minister’s attention to the report on page 3 of today’s Financial Times, which refers to a difference of opinion between the Department of Trade and Industry and the Treasury. The Treasury is trying to reclaim £1 billion which the department had not spent. Does the Treasury’s mindset in trying to claw back money from departments hold any implications for the Assembly? Could this be relevant to our situation in Wales, at least in terms of some elements of our budget?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 61

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I am relieved that the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities is taking action on underspend across the range of activity. Will she consider issuing figures separately—that is, ministry by ministry—in relation to underpsend? Although the global picture is not too serious, it is far more serious when you consider individual areas. A ministry by ministry breakdown would be extremely helpful.

Mae’n rhyddhad inni fod y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn cymryd camau o ran tanwariant ar draws ystod y gweithgarwch. A wnaiff ystyried cyhoeddi ffigurau ar wahân—hynny yw, fesul gweinyddiaeth—ynglŷn â thanwariant? Er nad yw’r darlun cyffredinol yn rhy ddifrifol, mae’n llawer mwy difrifol pan ystyriwch feysydd unigol. Byddai dadansoddiad fesul gweinyddiaeth yn ddefnyddiol iawn.

I agree that most of these changes are of a technical nature, involving cross-border transfers and out-of-area payments and so on. They need not detain us. I welcome the implication of her comments on the Wales Millennium Centre, namely that the scrutiny that was applied to that project will be applied to the chamber orchestra payment. I assume that that is what she was suggesting. That would help to clear the air on this important issue. Perhaps she could say in responding—although it is not a part of this statement—how she proposes to deal with the chamber orchestra payment, since she raised it by inference and since Dafydd Wigley raised it directly.

Cytunaf fod y rhan fwyaf o’r newidiadau hyn yn dechnegol eu natur, yn cynnwys trosglwyddiadau trawsffiniol a thaliadau y tu allan i’r ardal ac yn y blaen. Nid oes angen iddynt ein cadw ni. Croesawaf oblygiad ei sylwadau ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru, sef y caiff y gwaith craffu a wnaed ar y prosiect hwnnw ei gymhwyso i’r taliad cerddorfa siambr. Cymeraf yn ganiataol mai dyna yr oedd yn ei awgrymu. Byddai hynny’n helpu i glirio’r awyr ar y mater pwysig hwn. Efallai y gallai ddweud wrth ymateb—er nad yw’n rhan o’r datganiad hwn—sut mae’n bwriadu delio â’r taliad cerddorfa siambr, gan iddi ei godi drwy oblygiad a chan fod Dafydd Wigley wedi ei godi’n uniongyrchol.

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 61

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I am grateful for Members’ contributions. Jenny Randerson will deal with the scrutiny issue in Committee tomorrow. It is important that all the public money that has been allocated to this project is properly scrutinised. I accept that point.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gyfraniadau’r Aelodau. Bydd Jenny Randerson yn delio â’r mater craffu yn y Pwyllgor yfory. Mae’n bwysig y creffir yn briodol ar yr holl arian cyhoeddus a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer y prosiect hwn. Derbyniaf y pwynt hwnnw.

I will consider underspend in the individual areas. That will be a matter of public record and, if Members feel that it is appropriate, I would be more than happy to indicate my priorities in terms of where underspends are emerging, so that you can see the patterns. If I do that, it is also incumbent upon me to indicate why some of those patterns have arisen within those budgets. That is important for the Assembly. Because of the nature of some budgets, it is much easier to get the money out swiftly. In other budgets, organisations may have to ask for the money before it is distributed.

Ystyriaf tanwariant yn y meysydd unigol. Bydd hynny’n fater i’w gofnodi’n gyhoeddus ac, os gwêl yr Aelodau fod hynny’n briodol, byddwn yn fwy na bodlon nodi fy mlaenoriaethau o ran lle y mae tanwario yn datblygu, fel y gallwch weld y patrymau. Os gwnaf hynny, mae’n rheidrwydd arnaf hefyd i nodi pam mae rhai o’r patrymau hynny wedi codi o fewn y cyllidebau hynny. Mae hynny’n bwysig i’r Cynulliad. Oherwydd natur rhai cyllidebau, mae’n llawer haws cael yr arian allan yn gyflym. Mewn cyllidebau eraill, efallai fod yn rhaid i sefydliadau ofyn am yr arian cyn iddo gael ei ddosbarthu.

On Dafydd Wigley’s point on the underspend—

O ran pwynt Dafydd Wigley ar danwario—

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 62

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 62

Oni chytunwch fod y defnydd o ôl-daliadau yn eich gorfodi i danwario? Nid yw’n ffordd ddoeth o ddatblygu’r gyllideb.

Do you not agree that the use of retrospective payments forces you to underspend? It is not a wise way of developing the budget.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 62

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I am not sure to what Gareth is alluding. The way in which we currently deal with expenditure is the right way forward. I do not think that there is anything in the system that creates this pattern of underspend. It is sometimes created by circumstances, particularly with capital projects.

Nid wyf yn siŵr at beth y cyfeiria Gareth. Y modd y deliwn â gwariant ar hyn o bryd yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw beth yn y system sy’n creu’r patrwm hwn o danwario. Fe’i crëir weithiau gan amgylchiadau, yn arbennig gyda phrosiectau cyfalaf.

I will now deal with Dafydd Wigley’s points. I started a vigorous examination of underspend in the budget, as you can sometimes see quite early—even after six months—where underspends may be starting to emerge. My Cabinet colleagues in whose portfolios there could be underspends then prioritised the areas that could benefit if an underspend emerged. In terms of the global picture, I make the decisions on the basis of the requests that I receive from colleagues and weigh up those various priorities. If there is a matter of urgency that affects the whole administration, I will discuss it with the Cabinet.

Deliaf yn awr â phwyntiau Dafydd Wigley. Dechreuais archwilio tanwariant yn y gyllideb yn drylwyr, oherwydd weithiau gallwch weld yn eithaf cynnar—hyd yn oed ar ôl chwe mis—lle y gallai tanwario fod yn dechrau datblygu. Yna, blaenoriaethodd fy nghyd-aelodau yn y Cabinet y gallai fod tanwariant yn eu portffolios hwy y meysydd a allai elwa pe bai tanwario yn datblygu. O ran y darlun cyffredinol, gwnaf y penderfyniadau ar sail y ceisiadau a gaf gan gyd-Aelodau gan bwyso a mesur y blaenoriaethau amrywiol hynny. Os oes mater brys sy’n effeithio ar y weinyddiaeth gyfan, byddaf yn ei drafod â’r Cabinet.

Your point about the ambulance service is also relevant, because many such issues emerge during the year. If you find additional resources, they must be prioritised.

Mae eich pwynt am y gwasanaeth ambiwlans yn berthnasol hefyd, oherwydd daw llawer o faterion o’r fath i’r golwg yn ystod y flwyddyn. Os dewch o hyd i adnoddau ychwanegol, rhaid eu blaenoriaethu.

There is also an issue about moneys and applications for moneys, and whether we will pay people directly. Everything must go through its proper process. Initial requests for money are made to many Ministers about many issues, they then enter the system, are distributed to various officials, and submissions come through in the normal manner. On such applications for money, if there is no budgetary provision, they are sent to the relevant Minister and then on to me, as Finance Minister, to make the necessary allocation.

Mae mater hefyd ynglŷn ag arian a cheisiadau am arian, ac a fyddwn yn talu pobl yn uniongyrchol. Rhaid i bopeth fynd drwy ei broses briodol. Gwneir ceisiadau cychwynnol am arian i lawer o Weinidogion ar lawer o faterion, ymunant wedyn â’r system, fe’u dosberthir i’r swyddogion amrywiol, a daw cyflwyniadau drwyddo yn y dull arferol. O ran ceisiadau o’r fath am arian, os nad oes darpariaeth yn y gyllideb, fe’u hanfonir at y Gweinidog perthnasol ac yna ataf fi, fel y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, i wneud y dyraniad angenrheidiol.

Dafydd, I think that I am getting closer to my end-of-year target. I indicated that I wanted to get us down from 3.3 per cent to 2 per cent, and, with a lot of hard work, we are getting there. We also have to tell the organisations that we sponsor to get their houses in order. I am hopeful that we will achieve that first target, but it is still not good enough for me. I want to reduce underspends to a 1 per cent margin, if possible. As the First Minister answered this afternoon, in terms of our underspend achievement, we will probably turn out one of the best underspend margins in the UK.

Dafydd, credaf fy mod yn dod yn agosach at fy nharged diwedd y flwyddyn. Nodais fy mod am inni ostwng o 3.3 y cant i 2 y cant a chyda llawer o waith caled, yr ydym yn llwyddo. Rhaid inni ddweud hefyd wrth y sefydliadau ein bod yn rhoi nawdd iddynt fel y gallant gael trefn ar bethau. Gobeithiaf y cyrhaeddwn y targed cyntaf hwnnw ond nid yw’n ddigon da o hyd i mi. Yr wyf am sicrhau nad yw tanwariant yn fwy nag 1 y cant, os yw’n bosibl. Fel yr atebodd y Prif Weinidog y prynhawn yma, o ran y 2tanwariant a gyflawnwyd gennym, mae’n siŵr mai ni fydd ag un o’r achosion lleiaf o danwariant yn y DU.

I am interested in today’s Financial Times article about the Department of Trade and Industry, to which Dafydd Wigley referred. The clawback issue is irrelevant, as we now have different rules for the National Assembly. We do not have to return money from the Welsh block. However, I will make further inquiries about that DTI story. We must be aware, Dafydd, that the Treasury is currently embarking on its comprehensive spending review, and is looking vigorously at what is happening with departmental underspends in England. If it is a hard CSR, for example, on the education side with Estelle Morris’s department, it will also turn out to be hard for us. It is important that we also keep our house in order.

Mae diddordeb gennyf yn erthygl y Financial Times heddiw am yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, y cyfeiriodd Dafydd Wigley ati. Mae’r mater adfachu yn amherthnasol, gan fod gennym reolau gwahanol yn awr ar gyfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Nid oes rhaid inni ddychwelyd arian o floc Cymru. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf ymholiadau pellach am y stori honno am yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol, Dafydd, fod y Trysorlys yn ymgymryd â’i adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, ac yn edrych yn drwyadl ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd o ran tanwariant adrannol yn Lloegr. Os yw’n adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant anodd, er enghraifft, ar yr ochr addysg gydag adran Estelle Morris, bydd hefyd yn anodd i ni. Mae’n bwysig inni hefyd gadw trefn ar bethau.

Cynnig NDM985 Edwina Hart t. 63

Motion NDM985 Edwina Hart p. 63

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 64

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

In order to carry this motion, I remind you that 10 Members must not object. I therefore call for a vote on the motion.

Er mwyn i’r cynnig hwn gael ei dderbyn, fe’ch atgoffaf fod yn rhaid i 10 Aelod beidio â gwrthwynebu. Felly galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwasanaethau Post

Postal Services

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, and amendment 4 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 4 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 65

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 66

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

This afternoon’s motion endorses the need for action to support the retention of viable postal services in Wales. It includes the recommendation in the Cabinet Office’s performance and innovation unit’s report on the modernisation of the counters network and the Post Service Commission’s recommendations on mail delivery services. The Post Office, until a few years ago, was a remarkable example of a successful, nationalised industry, making millions and paying millions of pounds of dividends to the Treasury every year. Then, it suddenly all went wrong. It is expected that much of the counters network will be heavily threatened by the move by the Department for Work and Pensions—formerly social security—to switch to automated credit transfer for benefit payments.

Mae’r cynnig y prynhawn yma yn cadarnhau bod angen gweithredu dros gadw gwasanaethau post hyfyw yng Nghymru. Mae’n cynnwys yr argymhelliad yn adroddiad uned perfformiad ac arloesedd Swyddfa’r Cabinet ar foderneiddio’r rhwydwaith cownteri ac argymhellion Comisiwn y Gwasanaeth Post ar wasanaethau dosbarthu’r post. Bu Swyddfa’r Post, tan ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, yn enghraifft nodedig o ddiwydiant llwyddiannus, wedi’i wladoli, a oedd yn gwneud miliynau o elw ac yn talu miliynau o bunnau mewn difidendau i’r Trysorlys bob blwyddyn. Yna, yn sydyn, aeth pethau o chwith. Y disgwyl yw y bydd bygythiad mawr i lawer o’r rhwydwaith cownteri yn sgîl penderfyniad yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau—yr adran nawdd cymdeithasol gynt—i dalu budd-daliadau drwy drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 66

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Before you discuss automated credit transfer, will you give your reasons for why things went wrong?

Cyn ichi drafod trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd, a wnewch chi roi’ch rhesymau pam aeth pethau o chwith?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 66

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I was about to. I was introducing it first as a subject. It went wrong on the counters side and the Royal Mail side; however, the third arm, Parcelforce, had always lost money and was subsidised by the success of the other two. The counters side is seriously threatened by the different way in which benefits will be paid in future. There is less benefit payment in any case, but with automated credit transfer, 40 per cent of a typical post office’s turnover will go. In certain urban locations with a high degree of dependence on benefits, namely the poorest parts of our community, 80 per cent of a typical post office’s turnover is benefit payments. That will all be threatened with the switchover to ACT in about a year’s time.

Yr oeddwn ar fin gwneud hynny. Yr oeddwn yn ei gyflwyno fel pwnc yn gyntaf. Aeth pethau o chwith o ran y gwasanaeth cownteri a’r Post Brenhinol; fodd bynnag, yr oedd y drydedd gangen, Parcelforce, wedi colli arian erioed a châi ei sybsideiddio drwy lwyddiant y ddau arall. Mae bythygiad mawr i’r gwasanaeth cownteri oherwydd y ffordd wahanol o dalu budd-daliadau yn y dyfodol. Telir llai o fudd-daliadau sut bynnag, ond pan gaiff y trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd ei gyflwyno, bydd 40 y cant o drosiant swyddfa bost arferol yn diflannu. Mewn rhai lleoliadau trefol sy’n ddibynnol iawn ar fudd-daliadau, sef y rhannau tlotaf mewn cymdeithas, budd-daliadau yw 80 y cant o drosiant swyddfa bost arferol. Bydd hynny i gyd yn y fantol pan newidir i drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd ymhen tua blwyddyn.

Things have gone wrong for the Royal Mail too, probably because of e-mail and mobile phones. There is now a disconnection between the rise in gross domestic product and the rise in the number of letters posted. Before, an increase in GDP meant more letters posted. Now, GDP is rising but there is a decline or stasis in letter deliveries. That, in turn, has led to industrial relations pressures, which in turn have made people look at other possible mail service providers. This is against a background whereby, due to British and European legislation, there is a tendency towards the introduction of competition in previously monopoly provision public services. This is happening across the board in telecom, electricity, gas, and water, as we heard earlier this week. In every respect across Europe, previous monopoly providers are being opened up to competition by varying degrees. In postal terms, this raises the question of cherry picking. How do you continue to provide the universal service obligation of one price for a same-weight letter across the UK with the private postal services—which are frequently the former monopoly postal companies of the other countries that are now able to commercialise? It will be Deutsche Post, La Poste, and the Dutch postal services that will buy up either parcel service providers or bulk mail deliveries and compete against Royal Mail in this countrym, while Royal Mail will be told to compete against the Dutch and German post offices. That is what everybody is doing in Europe now. This has destabilised the British post office’s consistent pattern of profitability over the past two to three years.

Aeth pethau o chwith i’r Post Brenhinol hefyd, oherwydd e-bost a ffonau symudol yn fwy na thebyg. Erbyn hyn nid oes cysylltiad rhwng cynnydd mewn cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth a chynnydd yn nifer y llythyrau a bostir. Yn y gorffennol, golygodd cynnydd mewn CMC y câi mwy o lythyrau eu postio. Erbyn hyn, mae’r CMC ar gynnydd, ond mae nifer y llythyrau a ddosberthir yn gostwng neu’n aros yn ddigyfnewid. Mae hynny, yn ei dro, wedi arwain at bwysau ar gysylltiadau diwydiannol, sydd, yn eu tro, wedi peri i bobl ystyried darparwyr gwasanaethau post eraill. Mae hyn ar gefndir lle mae tuedd, yn sgîl deddfwriaeth gan Brydain ac Ewrop, i gyflwyno cystadleuaeth mewn darpariaeth gwasanaethau cyhoeddus lle y bu monopoli yn gynt. Mae hyn yn digwydd yn gyffredinol ym maes telathrebu, trydan, nwy a dŵr, fel y clywsom yn gynharach yr wythnos hon. Ym mhob maes ar draws Ewrop, mae darparwyr monopoli cynt yn gorfod wynebu cystadleuaeth i raddau amrywiol. Ym maes gwasanaethau post, cyfyd y posibilrwydd o ddewis a dethol y gwasanaethau gorau. Sut yr ydych yn parhau i roi ymrwymiad gwasanaeth cyffredinol i godi’r un pris am lythyr o’r un maint ar draws y DU gyda’r gwasanaethau post preifat—sydd yn aml yn hen gwmnïau post monopoli o wledydd sydd bellach yn gallu masnacheiddio? Deutsche Post, La Poste, a gwasanaethau post yr Iseldiroedd fydd yn prynu naill ai’r darparwyr gwasanaeth parseli neu swmp-ddosbarthiadau post gan gystadlu yn erbyn y Post Brehinol yn y wlad hon, tra dywedir wrth y Post Brenhinol am gystadlu yn erbyn swyddfeydd post yr Iseldiroedd a’r Almaen. Dyna beth y mae pawb yn ei wneud yn Ewrop yn awr. Mae hyn wedi amharu ar batrwm proffidioldeb cyson swyddfa post Prydain dros y ddwy neu dair blynedd diwethaf.

As I said, 40 per cent of a typical post office’s turnover will disappear with ACT in 2003. Also, because of the GDP disconnection, Royal Mail is now running at a loss, which it wants to remedy. Against that background, we recognise that, although we have no direct role in determining the regulatory framework in which they operate, post offices play a vital role in Welsh community life. They are more than just businesses; they are focal points for communities. They are particularly important in rural and depressed and deprived urban communities in Wales. We value that postal network and the social role that it plays. Many of the vulnerable, the elderly and pensioners in our society rely on it to deliver services. In many areas of Wales, post offices are the last remaining shop-like contact for its local clientele in that area. Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses will know their clients by name. They provide a valuable social service, going beyond providing the commercial service in their official job description. They are a trusted point of contact and, in many communities, post offices are the only places where residents can easily access cash. That is one reason why the Department of Trade and Industry is conducting a large experiment in Leicestershire, into which it has funded £25 million, and it intends to experiment with the idea of converting the post office into a one stop shop for Government services. Evaluating that experiment will start in April. We will watch that develop with interest to see whether we wish to encourage the DTI to conduct a Government general practitioner experiment in Wales similar to that in Leicestershire.

Fel y dywedais, bydd 40 y cant o drosiant swyddfa bost arferol yn diflannu pan gaiff trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd ei gyflwyno yn 2003. Hefyd, am nad oes cysylltiad â’r CMC, mae’r Post Brenhinol yn awr yn gwneud colled, rhywbeth y mae am ei unioni. Ar y cefndir hwnnw, yr ydym yn cydnabod, er nad oes gennym rôl uniongyrchol wrth bennu’r fframwaith rheoleiddio y maent yn gweithredu oddi mewn iddo, bod swyddfeydd post yn chwarae rhan hanfodol ym mywyd cymunedol Cymru. Maent yn fwy na busnesau; maent yn ganolbwynt ar gyfer cymunedau. Maent yn arbennig o bwysig mewn cymunedau gwledig a chymunedau trefol dirwasgedig a difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn gwerthfawrogi’r rhwydwaith post hwnnw a’r rôl gymdeithasol y mae’n ei chwarae. Mae llawer o bobl ddiamddiffyn, yr henoed a phensiynwyr mewn cymdeithas yn dibynnu arno i gyflwyno gwasanaethau. Mewn sawl ardal yng Nghymru, swyddfeydd post yw’r cyswllt siop olaf i’w cwsmeriaid yn yr ardal honno. Mae is-bostfeistri ac is-bostfeistresi yn adnabod eu cleientiaid wrth eu henw. Maent yn darparu gwasanaeth cymdeithasol gwerthfawr, yn fwy na’r gwasanaeth masnachol a nodir yn eu swydd ddisgrifiad swyddogol. Maent yn fan cyswllt y mae pobl yn ymddiried ynddo ac, mewn sawl cymuned, swyddfeydd post yw’r unig fan lle y gall trigolion gael arian parod yn hawdd. Dyna un rheswm pam y mae’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn cynnal arbrawf mawr yn Swydd Gaerlŷr, y rhoddodd £25 miliwn iddo, ac mae’n bwriadu arbrofi gyda’r syniad o droi swyddfa’r post yn siop un stop ar gyfer gwasanaethau’r Llywodraeth. Bydd yn dechrau gwerthuso’r arbrawf hwnnw ym mis Ebrill. Cadwn lygad barcud ar y datblygiad hwnnw i weld a hoffem annog yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant i gynnal arbrawf ymarfer cyffredinol ar ran y Llywodraeth yng Nghymru, yn debyg i’r un yn Swydd Gaerlŷr.

The universal bank is another concept that could be developed whereby people use the post office if there is no bank in their area. Post offices are a vital part of society in Wales and are its backbone. It is convenient that this debate is held today because the Postcomm consultation exercise on the Royal Mail’s introduction of competition finishes on Friday. The outcome of this debate could be part of that consultation and could be seen as the Welsh view of Postcomm’s actions. We understand that Postcomm is said to be backing off slightly from the harshest introduction of competition proposals. It has had interesting negotiations with the DTI. We are also pleased to hear that the Communication Workers Union has withdrawn the threat of strike action that arose from the threatened 30,000 job losses—although not compulsory redundancies, job losses nevetheless—across Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail workforces. The proposed strike arose from the estimated loss of business that would occur from Postcomm’s original proposals. We understand that the Communication Workers Union has now decided to recommend the pay rise on offer. The decision was linked to the decision of Royal Mail and Consignia senior management to refuse their 10 per cent pay rise. It is not clear what will happen when CWU members vote on the proposal. We hope that they will agree with their executive’s recommendation, namely that it is a reasonable two-year pay offer, which solves the industrial relations problems that were looming. The problems suggested that the Royal Mail would find it more difficult to continue to resist the opening of the market to other providers such as DHL Worldwide Express, TNT Post Group, and the other subsidiaries of Deutsche Post and the Dutch postal service, which are keen to compete in this country. The more competition that exists, the harder it becomes to maintain the universal service obligation which has been the backbone of the Post Office for 150 to 200 years in Wales. The universal service means that there is only one price to pay for delivering the basic letter, regardless of where it is posted.

Mae’r banc cyffredinol yn gysyniad arall y gellid ei ddatblygu lle mae pobl yn defnyddio’r swyddfa bost os nad oes banc yn eu hardal. Mae swyddfeydd post yn rhan annatod o gymdeithas yng Nghymru ac yn asgwrn cefn iddi. Mae’n gyfleus bod y ddadl hon yn cael ei chynnal heddiw am fod ymgynghoriad Postcomm ar gyflwyno cystadleuaeth gan y Post Brenhinol yn gorffen ddydd Gwener. Gallai canlyniad y ddadl hon fod yn rhan o’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw a gellid ei ystyried yn adolygiad Cymreig o weithredu Postcomm. Deallwn fod Postcomm, yn ôl pob sôn, yn ymbellhau ychydig o’r cynigion llymaf ar gyflwyno cystadleuaeth. Cafodd negodiadau diddorol gyda’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant. Yr ydym hefyd yn falch o glywed bod Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu wedi tynnu’r bygythiad o weithred streic yn ôl, a gododd oherwydd y bygythiad o 30,000 o ddiswyddiadau—er nad diswyddiadau gorfodol, ond diswyddiadau serch hynny—ar draws gweithlu Swyddfa’r Post Cyf a gweithlu’r Post Brenhinol. Cododd y streic arfaethedig yn dilyn yr amcangyfrif o’r busnes a gâi ei golli o ganlyniad i gynigion gwreiddiol Postcomm. Deallwn fod Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu bellach wedi penderfynu argymell y codiad cyflog a gynigiwyd. Yr oedd y penderfyniad yn gysylltiedig â phenderfyniad uwch reolwyr y Post Brenhinol a Consignia i wrthod y cynnig o 10 y cant o godiad cyflog. Nid yw’n sicr beth fydd yn digwydd pan fydd aelodau’r Undeb yn pleidleisio ar y cynnig. Gobeithiwn y byddant yn cytuno ag argymhelliad eu gweithrediaeth, sef ei fod yn gynnig cyflog dwy flynedd rhesymol, sy’n datrys y problemau o ran cysylltiadau diwydiannol a oedd ar y gorwel. Awgrymodd y problemau y byddai’n anos i’r Post Brenhinol barhau i wrthsefyll ymgais i agor y farchnad i ddarparwyr eraill megis DHL Worldwide Express, TNT Post Group, ac isgwmnïau eraill Deutsche Post a gwasanaeth post yr Iseldiroedd, sy’n awyddus i gystadlu yn y wlad hon. Po fwyaf yw’r gystadleuaeth, mwyaf anodd fydd cynnal ymrwymiad gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad a fu wrth wraidd Swyddfa’r Post ers 150 neu 200 o flynyddoedd yng Nghymru. Mae’r gwasanaeth cyffredinol yn golygu mai dim ond un pris sydd i’w dalu am ddosbarthu llythyr safonol, lle bynnag y caiff ei bostio.

I briefly turn to the support that is being made available for the reopening of rural post offices. Post office closures are less of a problem than they seemed to be around two years ago. We are aware of the closure of 20 offices in Wales this year. That is 48 less closures than in the previous 12 months. We are pleased that the UK Government is making £2 million available to support volunteer and community initiatives to maintain or reopen rural post offices. The fund is administered by Post Office Ltd. Seven applications have been made by post offices in Wales. Post offices in Deri, east of Merthyr, Ysgeifiog in Flintshire, and Adfa in Montgomeryshire, have been approved for payment in order to reopen previously closed post offices in rural or deprived urban Wales. Rural transfer advisers are based in Bridgend, Swansea and Bangor in order to try to maintain the rural network. We realise that the post office will go through a period of major change, because of European legislation and Postcomm’s proposals, which is why we are debating the issue today.

Trof yn fyr at y cymorth sydd ar gael i ailagor swyddfeydd post gwledig. Ymddengys fod llai o broblem yn awr o ran swyddfeydd post yn cau nag yr oedd ddwy flynedd yn ôl. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol bod 20 o swyddfeydd wedi cau yng Nghymru eleni. Mae hynny 48 yn llai na’r nifer a gaewyd yn y 12 mis blaenorol. Yr ydym yn falch bod Llywodraeth y DU yn rhyddhau £2 filiwn i gynorthwyo mentrau gwirfoddol a chymunedol i gynnal neu ailagor swyddfeydd post gwledig. Gweinyddir y gronfa gan Swyddfa’r Post Cyf. Gwnaed saith cais gan swyddfeydd post yng Nghymru. Cymeradwywyd ceisiadau swyddfeydd post yn Neri, i’r dwyrain o Ferthyr, Ysgeifiog yn Sir y Fflint, ac Adfa yn Sir Drefaldwyn, ar gyfer arian i ailagor swyddfeydd post a gaewyd yn flaenorol yng Nghymru wledig neu Gymru drefol ddifreintiedig. Lleolir ymgynghorwyr trosglwyddo gwledig ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, Abertawe a Bangor er mwyn ceisio cynnal y rhwydwaith gwledig. Sylweddolwn y bydd swyddfa’r post yn mynd drwy gyfnod o newid sylweddol, yn sgîl deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd a chynigion Postcomm, sef y rheswm pam yr ydym yn trafod y mater heddiw.

We will recommend that Members support amendment 4. We would have supported many of Plaid Cymru’s amendments also, except that they inserted the delete clause too early in the debate. We agree with the well-expressed sentiments in the Conservatives’ amendment 4, namely the maintenance of the universal service at a uniform price. We would also have supported much of the spirit of Plaid Cymru’s amendments. However, it chose the delete clause, although I do not understand why. Let us try to reach a consensus across the board on this issue. We would have supported the amendments’ sentiments. However, we will not do that at the price of deleting the motion’s content. That would mean throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Argymhellwn y dylai’r Aelodau gefnogi gwelliant 4. Byddem wedi cefnogi llawer o welliannau Plaid Cymru hefyd, pe na baent wedi rhoi’r cymal dileu yn rhy gynnar yn y ddadl. Cytunwn â’r farn a fynegwyd yn dda yng ngwelliant 4 y Ceidwadwyr, sef y dylid parhau i roi’r un gwasanaeth ledled y wlad am yr un pris. Byddem hefyd wedi cefnogi ysbryd llawer o welliannau Plaid Cymru. Fodd bynnag, dewisodd y cymal dileu, er na ddeallaf pam. Gadewch inni geisio cael consensws gan bawb ar y mater hwn. Byddem wedi cefnogi’r farn a fynegwyd yn y gwelliannau. Fodd bynnag, ni wnawn hynny os yw’n golygu dileu cynnwys y cynnig. Byddai hynny yn golygu cadw’r brych a lluchio’r babi.

There is a great deal in our motion, with reference to the performance and innovation unit’s report on how to modernise the Post Office, which commends itself and will lead to a reinvigoration of the Post Office Counters network in Wales. We would be sorry to lose that. That is why we will not support Plaid Cymru’s amendments, not because we disagree with the sentiments, but we do not want to sacrifice the contents of our original motion. I hope that we can reach some sort of consensus on that basis, which can then form part of an on-going consultation exercise.

Mae cryn dipyn yn ein cynnig, mewn perthynas ag adroddiad yr uned perfformiad ac arloesedd ar sut y dylid moderneiddio Swyddfa’r Post, sy’n ganmoladwy ac a fydd yn arwain at adfywio rhwydwaith Gwasanaeth Cownteri Swyddfa’r Post yng Nghymru. Byddai’n drueni colli hynny. Dyna pam na chefnogwn welliannau Plaid Cymru, a hynny nid oherwydd yr anghytunwn â’r farn a fynegwyd, ond am nad ydym am aberthu cynnwys ein cynnig gwreiddiol. Gobeithiaf y gallwn gael rhyw fath o gonsensws ar y sail honno, a all wedyn fod yn rhan o ymgynghoriad parhaus.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 70

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: delete all after ‘Wales’ and add:

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1 Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘yng Nghymru’ ac ychwanegu:

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in English p. 70

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I propose amendment 2. Delete all after ‘Wales’ and add:

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘yng Nghymru’ ac ychwanegu:

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in English p. 71

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I propose amendment 3. Delete all after ‘Wales’ and add:

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘yng Nghymru’ ac ychwanegu:

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in English p. 71

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I am pleased that we have, at last, a debate on the future of postal services in Wales. The UK Labour Government’s legislation enacted the Postal Services Act 2000 created Consignia plc—the old Royal Mail—as an independent publicly owned company. It also established the consumer council for postal services: Postwatch, and the Postal Services Commission: Postcomm.

Yr wyf yn falch o nodi ein bod, o’r diwedd, yn cynnal dadl ar ddyfodol y gwasanaethau post yng Nghymru. Gwnaed Deddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000 drwy ddeddfwriaeth Llywodraeth Lafur y DU, a greodd Consignia plc—yr hen Bost Brenhinol—fel cwmni annibynnol yn eiddo cyhoeddus. Sefydlodd hefyd gyngor defnyddwyr ar gyfer gwasanaethau post: Postwatch, a’r Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Post: Postcomm.

Before Christmas, I met representatives of the Communication Workers Union, which represents postal workers, the employees of Consignia. At that time postal workers were concerned at Consignia’s announcement of 30,000 job losses in the industry, reflecting the need to save £1.2 billion throughout the United Kingdom. We should bear in mind that Consignia has about 10,000 employees in Wales, making it one of the top five employers in this country. Yet Consignia’s financial situation and new technology are seen to be threatening jobs in Wales. There are only two mail sorting centres left in Wales: in Swansea and Cardiff. All north Wales post is sorted in Chester; all mid Wales post is sorted in Shrewsbury. Weekend mail is no longer sorted in Swansea and Cardiff, with the new technology being centralised outside Wales. When I met the union, it voiced fears that the Swansea and Cardiff sorting centres would be lost, which would mean that no post would be sorted in Wales, despite the fact that such establishments as the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency generate the equivalent of a large city’s post.

Cyn y Nadolig, cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu, sy’n cynrychioli gweithwyr post, cyflogeion Consignia. Ar yr adeg honno yr oedd gweithwyr post yn pryderu am gyhoeddiad Consignia am 30, 000 o ddiswyddiadau yn y diwydiant gan adlewyrchu’r angen i arbed £1.2 biliwn ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Dylem gofio bod gan Consignia ryw 10,000 o gyflogeion yng Nghymru, gan ei wneud yn un o’r pum cyflogwr mwyaf yn y wlad hon. Ac eto ystyrir bod sefyllfa ariannol Consignia a thechnoleg newydd yn fygythiad i swyddi yng Nghymru. Dim ond dwy ganolfan didoli post sydd ar ôl yng Nghymru: yn Abertawe ac yng Nghaerdydd. Caiff holl bost gogledd Cymru ei ddidoli yng Nghaer; caiff holl bost y Canolbarth ei ddidoli yn Amwythig. Ni ddidolir post penwythnos yn Abertawe a Chaerdydd bellach, a chanolir technoleg newydd y tu allan i Gymru. Pan gyfarfûm â’r undeb, lleisiodd ei ofn y câi’r canolfannau didoli yn Abertawe a Chaerdydd eu colli, a byddai hynny’n golygu na châi unrhyw bost ei ddidoli yng Nghymru, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod sefydliadau fel yr Asiantaeth Trwyddedu Gyrwyr a Cherbydau yn creu cymaint o bost â dinas fawr.

Plaid Cymru wants to see the postal service not just preserved, but developed into a proper all-Wales postal service. Consignia needs to put a stop to its end-of-line mentality, and recognise Wales as a nation. Consignia has Welsh representatives, but the real decisions are still taken outside Wales. Parcelforce operates by splitting Wales in two areas, their headquarters outside Wales. Post Office Counters’ headquarters for Wales is in Bristol. We also need one of the new regional technology centres to be located in Wales, not all three being located in England, as at present.

Mae Plaid Cymru am weld y gwasanaeth post nid yn unig yn cael ei gadw ond ei ddatblygu yn wasanaeth post priodol i Gymru gyfan. Mae angen i Consignia roi’r gorau i’w feddylfryd ‘diwedd y llinell’, a chydnabod Cymru fel cenedl. Mae gan Consignia gynrychiolwyr o Gymru, ond gwneir y penderfyniadau gwirioneddol y tu allan i Gymru. Mae Parcelforce yn gweithredu drwy hollti Cymru yn ddwy ardal, ac mae ei bencadlys y tu allan i Gymru. Lleolir pencadlys Gwasanaeth Cownteri Swyddfa’r Post i Gymru ym Mryste. Mae angen arnom hefyd i un o’r canolfannau technoleg rhanbarthol newydd gael ei lleoli yng Nghymru, yn hytrach na lleoli pob un o’r tair yn Lloegr, fel sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.

However, to invest in postal services and develop them Consignia needs finance. That aspect seems to be under threat from UK Government policy through the regulator, Postcomm, and current pressures in the service. Consignia has experienced losses for two years following 23 consecutive years of the Royal Mail making a profit. We have heard explanations for that, but we need an independent review to find out the reason for the losses. Investment is desperately needed in the Welsh postal service.

Fodd bynnag, mae angen arian ar Consignia er mwyn iddo fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau post a’u datblygu. Ymddengys fod yr agwedd honno yn y fantol oherwydd polisi Llywodraeth y DU drwy’r corff rheoleiddio, Postcomm a’r pwysau presennol ar y gwasanaeth. Mae Consignia wedi colli arian am ddwy flynedd ar ôl i’r Post Brenhinol wneud elw am 23 o flynyddoedd yn olynol. Clywsom esboniadau am hyn, ond mae angen adolygiad annibynnol arnom i ganfod y rheswm dros y colledion. Mae angen buddsoddi yng ngwasanaeth post Cymru yn ddybryd.

The UK Government regulator, Postcomm, has announced proposals in recent weeks to increase competition in the postal services. The areas where Postcomm wants to introduce competition are those in which Consignia makes enough money to finance deliveries to rural and remote homes. Postcomm is proposing granting licences for operators from next month, which will open up the service gradually, so that they can provide large mail services with a minimum of 4,000 items. By April 2006, the UK postal services will be completely liberated—that is, privatised. However, there are widespread concerns about Postcomm’s proposals. Concerns must be registered by Friday. Most people feel that the proposals will open up too much of the postal market, too soon, in the wrong form, at the wrong time, and that the changes will be contrary to European Commission plans, which are based on steadily lowering the price/weight threshold of mail rather than opening up the bulk mail section, which is the most rapidly growing and most profitable section. The UK Government proposals, through Postcomm, are far more radical than that. It wants complete liberalisation, or privatisation, of postal services by 1 April 2006.

Cyhoeddodd corff rheoleiddio Llywodraeth y DU, sef Postcomm, ei gynigion yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf ar gyfer mwy o gystadleuaeth o fewn y gwasanaethau post. Mae Postcomm am gyflwyno cystadleuaeth yn y meysydd hynny lle y mae Consignia yn gwneud digon o elw i ariannu dosbarthu post i gartrefi gwledig ac anghysbell. Mae Postcomm yn cynnig rhoi trwyddedau i gwmnïau o fis nesaf ymlaen, a fydd yn agor y gwasanaeth i gystadleuaeth yn raddol, fel y gallant ddarparu gwasanaethau post mawr gyda lleiafswm o 4,000 o eitemau. Erbyn Ebrill 2006, caiff gwasanaethau post y DU eu rhyddfrydoli’n llwyr—hynny yw, eu preifateiddio. Fodd bynnag, mae pryderon cyffredinol ynglŷn â chynigion Postcomm. Rhaid cofrestru pryderon erbyn dydd Gwener. Teimla’r rhan fwyaf o bobl y bydd y cynigion yn agor gormod o’r farchnad bost yn rhy fuan i gystadleuaeth, a hynny ar y ffurf anghywir, ar yr adeg anghywir, ac y bydd y newidiadau yn groes i gynlluniau’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, sy’n seiliedig ar ostwng trothwy pris/pwysau post yn raddol yn hytrach nag agor yr adran swmp-bost i gystadleuaeth, sef yr adran fwyaf proffidiol, sy’n tyfu gyflymaf. Mae cynigion Llywodraeth y DU, drwy Postcomm, yn llawer mwy radical na hynny. Mae am ryddfrydoli, neu breifateiddio, gwasanaethau post yn llwyr erbyn 1 Ebrill 2006.

There are widespread fears that the UK Government proposals, leading to the rapid introduction of competition for postal services, could result in a complete breakdown in the delivery of a universal service at a reasonable, uniform price.

Mae llawer yn ofni y gallai cynigion Llywodraeth y DU, a fydd yn arwain at gyflwyno cystadleuaeth yn gyflym i’r gwasanaethau post, beri i’r gwasanaeth cyffredin am yr un pris rhesymol chwalu.

Sweden had complete postal liberalisation in 1993. Since then, prices for the consumer have risen by 70 per cent and Sweden Post has cut 20 per cent of its workforce and is now operating at a deficit. If Postcomm’s proposals go ahead and Consignia still has to maintain a universal service in the face of competition that cherry-picks the most profitable aspects, prices for the customer will have to rise. In Sweden, differential prices have been introduced in rural areas, reflecting the cost of dealing with the collection and delivery of mail in those areas.

Rhyddfrydolwyd gwasanaeth post Sweden yn llwyr yn 1993. Ers hynny, mae prisiau i ddefnyddwyr wedi cynyddu 70 y cant ac mae Post Sweden wedi cwtogi 20 y cant o’i weithlu ac mae bellach yn gwneud colledion. Os gweithredir cynigion Postcomm ac os bydd Consignia yn gorfod cynnal gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad o hyd yn wyneb cystadleuwyr a fydd yn dewis yr agweddau mwyaf proffidiol, bydd yn rhaid i’r prisiau i gwsmeriaid godi. Yn Sweden, cyflwynwyd prisiau gwahanol mewn ardaloedd gwledig, gan adlewyrchu’r gost o gasglu a dosbarthu post yn yr ardaloedd hynny.

The UK Government’s ideas, via Postcomm’s proposals, are only out for public consultation until Friday 15 March. Make your views known now, and reject the Postcomm proposals that threaten the universal Royal Mail service. Privatising Railtrack was a disaster—the privatisation of the Royal Mail cannot be allowed to follow suit. We need Consignia, or Royal Mail, to make money, so that it can invest in an all-Wales postal service that delivers post at a uniform price regardless of where you live. I urge Members to support our amendments.

Dim ond tan ddydd Gwener 15 Mawrth y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ymgynghori â’r cyhoedd ynglŷn â’i syniadau, drwy gyfrwng cynigion Postcomm. Rhowch eich sylwadau yn awr, a gwrthodwch gynigion Postcomm sy’n fygythiad i wasanaeth cyffredinol y Post Brenhinol. Bu preifateiddio Railtrack yn drychineb—ni ellir caniatáu i’r Post Brenhinol gael ei breifateiddio yn yr un modd. Mae angen arnom i Consignia, neu’r Post Brenhinol, wneud elw, fel y gall fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaeth post i Gymru gyfan a hwnnw’n dosbarthu post am yr un pris lle bynnag yr ydych yn byw. Erfyniaf ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi ein gwelliannau.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 73

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I allowed Dai to continue for longer than he should have done. However, I appeal for brief speeches because 11 Members wish to contribute. Although we are not short of time, we need to be expeditious.

Caniateais i Dai barhau am fwy o amser nag y dylai fod wedi gwneud. Fodd bynnag, apeliaf arnoch i wneud areithiau byr am fod 11 Aelod am gyfrannu. Er nad ydym yn brin o amser, mae angen inni fynd rhagom yn ddiymdroi.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 74

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I propose amendment 4 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Add at the end of the sentence:

Cynigiaf welliant 4 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y frawddeg:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 74

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I have done a deal with the Deputy Presiding Officer; he will allow me three minutes in which to speak, with another two minutes for another Conservative speaker.

Trewais fargen gyda’r Dirprwy Lywydd; bydd yn caniatáu imi siarad am dair munud, gyda dwy funud arall ar gyfer siaradwr Ceidwadol arall.

I am in great danger of agreeing with the majority of the First Minister’s points. This is probably the first and only time that this has happened. I did not agree, however, that it is convenient that the consultation period ends this Friday. It is far too soon; we have only had six weeks of consultation. Extending the consultation period would provide an opportunity for far greater reflection and for us to put together a more considered response. I do not know whether it would be possible to seek an extension, but it would be worthwhile.

Mae perygl mawr y byddaf y cytuno â’r rhan fwyaf o bwyntiau’r Prif Weinidog. Dyma’r tro cyntaf a’r unig dro y bydd hyn yn digwydd siŵr o fod. Fodd bynnag, ni chytunais ei bod yn gyfleus bod y cyfnod ymgynghori yn dod i ben ddydd Gwener. Mae’n llawer rhy fuan; dim ond chwe wythnos o ymgynghori a gawsom. Byddai ymestyn y cyfnod ymgynghori yn rhoi cyfle i bobl ystyried y cynigion yn llawer dyfnach ac i ni lunio ateb mwy ystyriol. Ni wn a fyddai’n bosibl gofyn am estyniad, ond byddai o fudd.

We have seen many changes in the Post Office system. Proposals to withdraw early deliveries are wrong, as are proposals to withdraw the second delivery. There are concerns in my constituency about postcodes. Glasbury-on-Wye has a Hereford postcode and is therefore very often treated by the Post Office as if it were in England. Meanwhile, many communities in Gloucestershire receive bilingual literature on the running of post offices. It should not be beyond the wit of the Post Office—or Consignia, Post Office Counters, or whatever it is—in this day and age, to put that right.

Gwelsom lawer o newidiadau yn system Swyddfa’r Post. Mae’r cynigion ar gyfer tynnu dosbarthiadau cynnar yn ôl yn anghywir, a hefyd y cynigion ar gyfer tynnu’r ail ddosbarthiad yn ôl. Mae pryderon yn fy etholaeth i ynglŷn â chodau post. Mae gan y Clas ar Wy god post Henffordd ac felly yn aml iawn mae Swyddfa’r Post yn ei drin fel pe bai yn Lloegr. Yn y cyfamser, caiff llawer o gymunedau yn Swydd Gaerloyw ddeunydd ysgrifenedig dwyieithog am swyddfeydd post. Ni ddylai fod y tu hwnt i allu Swyddfa’r Post—neu Consignia, Gwasanaeth Cownteri Swyddfa’r Post, neu beth bynnag—yn yr oes hon, i gywiro hynny.

I am concerned about the Postcomm proposals, though not so much the European proposals because they are more manageable. The Postcomm proposals, however, would allow cherry-picking of the most profitable parts of the delivery system, such as bulk deliveries over 4,000. There is nothing wrong with fair competition, but this is not fair because it would enable companies—probably Dutch and German post offices—to take the profitable aspects, whereas we could not do the same in Germany and Holland. That is wrong. It is also wrong because it would hit a universal delivery system at a uniform price. The actual cost of delivering an item from the Highlands of Scotland to rural Wales, or vice versa, would probably be about £2. We cannot face that situation. It is true that the rate of rural post office closures is slowing down. However, it is still of grave concern. Automated credit transfer is partly responsible for the effect on these post offices.

Mae gennyf bryderon ynglŷn â chynigion Postcomm, er nid cymaint am y pryderon Ewropeaidd gan eu bod yn fwy hydrin. Byddai cynigion Postcomm, fodd bynnag, yn caniatáu i gwmnïau ddewis y rhannau mwyaf proffidiol o’r system ddosbarthu, megis swmp-ddosbarthu dros 4,000. Nid oes dim byd o’i le ar gystadleuaeth deg, ond nid yw hyn yn deg, oherwydd byddai’n galluogi cwmnïau—swyddfeydd post o’r Iseldiroedd a’r Almaen yn fwy na thebyg—i ymgymryd â’r agweddau proffidiol, tra na allem wneud yr un peth yn yr Almaen a’r Iseldiroedd. Mae hynny yn anghywir. Mae’n anghywir hefyd oherwydd y byddai’n effeithio ar system ddosbarthu gyffredinol ledled y wlad am yr un pris. Tua £2 fyddai cost wirioneddol dosbarthu eitem o Ucheldiroedd yr Alban i gefn gwlad Cymru, neu fel arall, yn ôl pob tebyg. Ni allwn wynebu’r sefyllfa honno. Mae’n wir bod cyfradd cau swyddfeydd post gwledig yn arafu. Fodd bynnag, mae’n achos pryder mawr o hyd. Trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd sy’n rhannol gyfrifol am yr effaith ar y swyddfeydd post hyn.

We will support Plaid Cymru’s amendment 1 on the provision of services in Wales. It is wrong that services are located in Chester, but at least some Welsh people work in the Chester office. However, the services are about to be moved to Manchester, which is more serious. Services in Shrewsbury and Bristol are not in the interest of Wales either.

Cefnogwn welliant 1 Plaid Cymru ar y ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau yng Nghymru. Nid yw’n iawn bod gwasanaethau wedi’u lleoli yng Nghaer, ond o leiaf mae rhai Cymry yn gweithio yn swyddfa Caer. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gwasanaethau ar fin cael eu symud i Fanceinion, ac mae hynny’n fwy difrifol. Nid yw’r gwasanaethau yn Amwythig a Bryste yn bodoli er lles Cymru ychwaith.

The idea of a national post office service for Wales is ideological and isolationist. We must look at this in the round. If we only had a Welsh system, prices would increase. With a UK system we can ensure a much lower uniform price, which is surely more valuable. Therefore I appeal to Plaid Cymru to rethink amendment 3.

Mae’r syniad o swyddfa bost genedlaethol i Gymru yn ideolegol ac yn ymynysol. Rhaid inni edrych ar hyn yn ei gyfanrwydd. Pe bai gennym system i Gymru yn unig, byddai prisiau yn codi. Gyda system y DU, gallwn sicrhau bod pris safonol is, sy’n fwy gwerthfawr, heb os. Felly apeliaf ar Blaid Cymru i ailystyried gwelliant 3.

As I said, it is rare for me to agree with 90 per cent of what the First Minister said. Therefore I will stop there, and let us make the most of that.

Fel y dywedais, anaml y byddaf yn cytuno â 90 y cant o’r hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog. Felly, tawaf yn awr, a gadewch inni wneud y gorau o hynny.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 75

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

First, I pay tribute to postal workers throughout Wales. They are great professionals who carry out great work on our behalf in all weathers. They are often the only people that many in rural areas see during the day. They also do good work on the wonderful postbus service in rural areas, which we pass when we travel through Wales. We have much to thank them for.

Yn gyntaf, talaf deyrnged i weithwyr post ledled Cymru. Maent yn weithwyr proffesiynol gwych sy’n gwneud gwaith campus ar ein rhan ym mhob tywydd. Yn aml hwy yw’r unig bobl i’w gweld yn ystod y dydd mewn llawer o ardaloedd gwledig. Maent hefyd yn gwneud gwaith da ar y gwasanaeth bws post ardderchog mewn ardaloedd gwledig, yr ydym yn mynd heibio iddo wrth deithio ar hyd Cymru. Mae gennym lawer i ddiolch iddynt amdano.

Adopting an absurd name at a cost of millions does nothing to improve the service. It only confuses the public. It was always known and respected as the Royal Mail. It was built by professionals. Now it is called Consignia, which no-one understands. That is the first problem. However, we are not here today to defend the indefensible. That is why I am glad that there is a consultative period, because I want to make some points by Friday like everybody else. The Wales postal board has proven to be toothless on many occasions as far as Wales is concerned. There is no higher management structure in Wales at present, and there has not been for some time. The National Assembly should be given the role of a regulatory body as far as the post office in Wales is concerned. It is worth considering, because we understand the problems better than anybody. We are the people who must answer those out there who are concerned about how this wonderful service is being continually picked off time after time.

Nid yw mabwysiadu enw hurt ar gost o filiynau o bunnau yn gwneud dim i wella’r gwasanaeth. Y cyfan a wna yw drysu’r cyhoedd. Cafodd y Post Brenhinol ei barchu a’i adnabod wrth yr enw hwnnw erioed. Bellach fe’i gelwir yn Consignia, nad oes neb yn ei ddeall. Dyna’r broblem gyntaf. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yma heddiw i amddiffyn rhywbeth na ellir ei amddiffyn. Dyna pam fy mod yn falch bod cyfnod ymgynghori, oherwydd hoffwn wneud rhai pwyntiau erbyn dydd Gwener fel pawb arall. Bu bwrdd post Cymru yn ddi-rym ar sawl achlysur o safbwynt Cymru. Nid oes strwythur rheoli uwch yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, ac ni fu ers amser. Dylid rhoi rôl corff rheoleiddio i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o ran swyddfa’r post yng Nghymru. Mae’n werth ystyried, am ein bod yn deall y problemau yn well na neb arall. Nyni sy’n gorfod ateb y bobl hynny sy’n pryderu am y ffordd yr ymosodir ar y gwasanaeth gwych hwn dro ar ôl tro.

That is not a nationalist gesture. It is a plea for help and for the improvement of a beleaguered industry in Wales, because action needs to be taken to help the people in our communities. The demoralisation of the workforce is a disgrace. The Communication Workers Union is fighting a rearguard action all the time to save jobs. Sorting facilities, which we have heard about, are being transferred to England. It was described earlier as a pity. It is a disgrace.

Nid gweithred cenedlaetholaidd mo hynny. Mae’n ble am gymorth ac yn ble i wella diwydiant yng Nghymru sydd o dan y lach, gan fod angen cymryd camau i helpu’r bobl yn ein cymunedau. Mae’r digalondid a berir i’r gweithlu yn warth. Mae Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu yn ymladd i gadw’r ôl bob amser er mwyn arbed swyddi. Trosglwyddir cyfleusterau didoli, y clywsom sôn amdanynt, i Loegr. Dywedwyd yn gynharach fod hynny’n drueni. Mae’n warth.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 76

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Recent developments mean that letters posted in the Cardiff area and the Valleys on weekends go to Bristol to be sorted on Sundays, then come back to Cardiff to be sent to Pontypridd, or wherever. Do you see that it is a dangerous move, and do you think that the First Minister should lead a campaign to ensure that we do not lose the postal service jobs that we currently have in Wales?

O ganlyniad i ddatblygiadau diweddar mae llythyrau a anfonir yn ardal Caerdydd a’r Cymoedd ar y penwythnos yn mynd i Fryste i’w didoli ar y Sul, yna maent yn dod yn ôl i Gaerdydd i’w hanfon i Bontypridd, neu lle bynnag. A gredwch fod hyn yn gam peryglus, ac a gredwch y dylai’r Prif Weinidog arwain ymgyrch i sicrhau na chollwn y swyddi sydd gennym yn y gwasanaeth post yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 76

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

It is a regrettable move, which could lead to the loss of Royal Mail jobs in Wales. I am concerned about the people on the sharp end, who have served our communities for many years.

Mae’n ddatblygiad anffodus, a allai arwain at golli swyddi yn y Post Brenhinol yng Nghymru. Pryderaf am y bobl sydd yn y rheng flaen, sydd wedi gwasanaethu ein cymunedau ers blynyddoedd maith.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 76

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I appreciate your points, although I am not saying that I agree with any of them. Do you accept that the militant attitude of the Communication Workers Union is not helpful in terms of the restructuring of the post office?

Gwerthfawrogaf eich pwyntiau, er nad wyf yn dweud y cytunaf ag unrhyw un ohonynt. A dderbyniwch nad yw agwedd ymosodol Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu o gymorth o ran ailstrwythuro swyddfa’r post?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 77

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

You have had the audacity to make that comment here before, when hard-working postal professionals, who walk the streets for far less than you or I are paid, are doing their best to save their jobs. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. It is a waste of time to consider what you said any further.

Buoch mor hyf â gwneud y sylw hwnnw yma o’r blaen, tra bod gweithwyr proffesiynol y post sy’n gweithio’n galed ac yn cerdded y strydoedd am lawer llai o gyflog nag a gaf finnau neu chithau, yn gwneud eu gorau glas i achub eu swyddi. Rhag eich cywilydd. Mae rhoi ystyriaeth bellach i’r hyn a ddywedasoch yn wastraff amser.

People’s jobs and livelihoods could be transferred to England. That is wrong. If you complain to Consignia, you are ignored. I wrote to the company and I was not answered by the chief executive. We must show concern for our people, not just for those who work in the postal service, but for those in our communities who depend on them. The sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses—those good people who look after our communities—are quite often running the only shop in those communities. What will happen to them in future when the benefits agency starts its direct payments scheme? We have heard already that 20 such sub-post offices were closed in the last year. Unfortunately, it is a downward spiral, although the rate of closures has slowed lately.

Mae’n bosibl y caiff swyddi a bywoliaeth pobl eu trosglwyddo i Loegr. Mae hynny yn anghywir. Os gwnewch gŵyn i Consignia, cewch eich anwybyddu. Ysgrifennais i’r cwmni ac ni chefais ateb gan y prif weithredwr. Rhaid inni ddangos pryder dros ein pobl, nid yn unig y rhai sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth post, ond y rhai yn ein cymunedau sy’n dibynnu arnynt. Mae’r is-bostfeistri a’r is-bostfeistresi—y bobl dda hynny sy’n gofalu am ein cymunedau—yn aml yn rhedeg yr unig siop yn y cymunedau hynny. Beth fydd yn digwydd iddynt yn y dyfodol pan fydd yr asiantaeth budd-daliadau yn dechrau ei chynllun taliadau uniongyrchol? Clywsom eisoes fod 20 o’r is-swyddfeydd post hynny wedi cau yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Yn anffodus, mae’n dueddiad i lawr, er bod llai o swyddfeydd wedi cau yn ddiweddar.

We have seen other occurences—the Good Friday post is going in order to save money. The second delivery in my community has been delayed in order to put workers on first delivery and to save money on overtime. Postcodes are changed, which means that people are wrongly categorised for insurance purposes, without consultation. Their insurance goes up overnight because the Royal Mail changes their postcode. One of the worst and most emotive occurences in my community was the changing of the post town addresses, whereby communities lost their identity overnight. People were aggrieved by that. However, the Royal Mail rides on. It is not worried. The useless, thoughtless, powerless Wales postal board was not worried either when I, and other Members, went to see it. When the South East Wales Regional Committee took up the issue, it was not concerned.

Gwelsom bethau eraill yn digwydd—rhoddir y gorau i’r post ar ddydd Gwener y Groglith er mwyn arbed arian. Gohiriwyd yr ail ddosbarthiad yn fy nghymuned i er mwyn rhoi gweithwyr ar y dosbarthiad cyntaf ac arbed arian ar oramser. Newidir codau post, sy’n golygu y caiff pobl eu categoreiddio’n anghywir at ddibenion yswiriant, heb ymgynghori. Mae pris eu hyswiriant yn codi dros nos am fod y Post Brenhinol yn newid eu cod post. Un o’r digwyddiadau gwaethaf a mwyaf cynhyrfiol yn fy nghymuned i oedd y penderfyniad i newid cyfeiriadau post y trefi; collodd cymunedau eu hunaniaeth dros nos. Digiwyd pobl gan hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Post Brenhinol yn hwylio yn ei flaen. Nid yw’n poeni dim. Nid oedd y bwrdd post diwerth, difeddwl di-rym i Gymru yn poeni ychwaith pan euthum i ac Aelodau eraill i gyfarfod ag ef. Pan godwyd y mater gan Bwyllgor Rhanbarth y De-Ddwyrain, nid oedd yn poeni.

Wales does not count as far as Consignia is concerned; we are just ploughed in with the rest. We want a quality service with a universally-priced delivery. Privatisation will lead to an amateur service, with rural and semi-rural areas in particular, being forgotten in the future. We want a post office that cares for all the people of Wales and serves the whole community of Wales according to the tradition that postal workers have proudly built for centuries.

Nid yw Cymru yn bwysig yn nhyb Consignia; cawn ein trafod gyda’r gweddill. Yr ydym am gael gwasanaeth o safon sy’n dosbarthu am yr un pris ledled y wlad. Bydd preifateiddio yn arwain at wasanaeth amhroffesiynol, wrth i ardaloedd gwledig a lled-wledig yn arbennig gael eu hanghofio yn y dyfodol. Yr ydym am gael swyddfa bost sy’n gofalu am holl bobl Cymru, ac yn gwasanaethu cymuned gyfan Cymru yn unol â’r traddodiad a grëwyd gan y gweithwyr post ers canrifoedd.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 78

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

As Dai Lloyd said, Plaid Cymru wants a developing postal service, one which does not compromise on the present high standards of our postal service and which is available to everyone, regardless of where they live, at a uniform cost. We are all aware of the problems facing Consignia—Peter outlined them well—and of the efforts to solve those problems. There have been moves to cut costs by centralising sorting offices: as has been said, all the mail posted in north Wales goes to Chester to be sorted. Now it is suggested that, every weekend, all that mail should go to Manchester, along with the mail from Liverpool and Shrewsbury. What guarantee can be given that it would be sorted on the weekend and be ready for delivery on Monday? When the post from Crewe was taken to Manchester as an experiment, I believe that around 40 per cent was returned unsorted on the Monday morning.

Fel y dywedodd Dai Lloyd, mae Plaid Cymru am weld gwasanaeth post sy’n datblygu, un nad yw’n rhoi safonau uchel ein gwasanaeth post presennol yn y fantol ac un sydd ar gael i bawb, lle bynnag y maent yn byw, am yr un pris. Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybodol o’r problemau y mae Consignia yn eu hwynebu—fe’u disgrifiwyd yn dda gan Peter—a’r ymdrechion a wneir i ddatrys y problemau hynny. Bu ymgais i leihau costau drwy ganoli swyddfeydd didoli: fel y dywedwyd, mae holl bost y Gogledd yn mynd i Gaer i’w ddidoli. Awgrymir yn awr y dylid mynd â’r post i Fanceinion bob penwythnos, ynghyd â’r post o Lerpwl a’r Amwythig. Pa sicrwydd y gellir ei roi y câi ei ddidoli ar y penwythnos ac y byddai’n barod i’w ddosbarthu ar ddydd Llun? Pan aethpwyd â’r post o Crewe i Fanceinion fel arbrawf, credaf fod 40 y cant wedi ei ddychwelyd heb ei ddidoli fore dydd Llun.

Yesterday I saw letters being collected locally in the Ruthin area, then being sent to Rhyl, to be sent on to Chester to be sorted. They would then be sent back to Rhyl, and returned to Ruthin to be resorted and delivered locally. Why is it not possible to go back to the old method of sorting locally collected mail locally, before passing on the mail for other areas? The answer is that it is not possible because we still do not have a government in Westminster that believes in investing in publicly funded public services. What effect will this drive to privatise have on daily delivery and maintaining a universal service?

Ddoe gwelais lythyrau yn cael eu casglu’n lleol yn ardal Rhuthun, yna’n cael eu hanfon i’r Rhyl, i’w hanfon ymlaen i Gaer i’w didoli. Yna byddent yn cael eu hanfon yn ôl i’r Rhyl, a’u dychwelyd i Ruthun i’w hail-ddidoli a’u dosbarthu’n lleol. Pam nad oes modd dychwelyd at yr hen ddull o ddiddoli post a gesglir yn lleol, yn lleol, cyn trosglwyddo’r post ar gyfer ardaloedd eraill? Yr ateb i hynny yw nad oes modd gwneud hynny am nad oes gennym lywodraeth yn San Steffan o hyd sy’n credu mewn buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a ariennir drwy arian cyhoeddus. Pa effaith a gaiff yr ymgais hon i breifateiddio ar ddosbarthiad dyddiol ac ar gynnal gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad?

Postcomm insists that there will not be a threat to a universal service and states that universal service is enshrined in legislation. However, the definition of a universal service in the Postal Services Act 2000 is much more limited than the service that customers currently enjoy. The law guarantees a delivery to homes and premises in the United Kingdom every working day, and a collection—at least one every working day—from post boxes throughout the UK. If that legislation were strictly adhered to, the service would deteriorate. There are no guarantees on weekend services, delivery times, or on having more than one collection per day from post boxes.

Mae Postcomm yn mynnu na fydd bygythiad i wasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad ac yn nodi bod gwasanaeth cyffredinol wedi’i ddiogelu mewn deddfwriaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’r diffiniad o wasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad a geir yn Neddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000 yn llawer mwy cyfyng na’r gwasanaeth a gaiff cwsmeriaid ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r ddeddf yn gwarantu dosbarthiad dyddiol i gartrefi a swyddfeydd y Deyrnas Unedig ar bob diwrnod gwaith a chasgliad—o leiaf un ar bob diwrnod gwaith—o flychau post ledled y DU. Pe cedwid at y ddeddfwriaeth honno yn llym, byddai’r gwasanaeth yn dirywio. Nid oes unrhyw sicrwydd ynglŷn â gwasanaethau ar benwythnosau, amseroedd dosbarthu, na mwy nag un casgliad y dydd o flychau post.

The Postal Services Act 2000 also provides a commitment to a uniform affordable tariff. However, if there is no definition of what is affordable, how can we guarantee that those services and prices will be accessible to everyone? We must guarantee that the service will be maintained at a universal price to everybody.

Mae Deddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000 hefyd yn rhoi ymrwymiad i restr brisiau fforddiadwy, safonol. Fodd bynnag, os nad oes diffiniad o’r hyn sy’n fforddiadwy, sut y gallwn warantu y bydd y gwasanaethau a’r prisiau hynny ar gael i bawb? Rhaid inni warantu y parheir i ddarparu gwasanaeth am yr un pris i bawb.

Yesterday, I had the great pleasure of visiting the Ruthin sorting office to see how post is sorted and delivered to rural areas. I observed a group of hard working postal workers who had a knowledge of their local community that could not be fed into a machine, sorting out post street by street and house by house. Those people work long hours for low wages. They were all being asked to work overtime to cover for colleagues who were sick. Those who are ill are not to blame, but perhaps the fact that they are ill reflects an organisation that demands more and more from its workforce without giving them due recognition or recompense. Postal workers have had an increasing workload over the last few years without a commensurate rise in salary. They have seen millions spent on new uniforms and a new brand image, without investment in the manpower—or personpower—that makes the postal service work.

Ddoe, pleser o’r mwyaf oedd ymweld â swyddfa ddidoli Rhuthun i weld sut y caiff y post ei ddidoli a’i ddosbarthu i ardaloedd gwledig. Gwelais grŵp o weithwyr post diwyd a oedd yn meddu ar wybodaeth am eu cymuned leol na ellid ei fwydo i beiriant, gan ddidoli post fesul stryd a fesul tŷ. Mae’r bobl hynny yn gweithio oriau hir am gyflogau isel. Gofynnwyd i bob un ohonynt weithio goramser ar ran cydweithwyr a oedd yn sâl. Nid oes bai ar y rhai sy’n sâl, ond efallai fod y ffaith eu bod yn sâl yn adlewyrchu’n wael ar sefydliad sy’n gofyn mwy a mwy o’i weithlu, heb roi’r gydnabyddiaeth na’r tâl y maent yn eu haeddu. Bu baich gwaith cynyddol ar weithwyr post yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf heb gynnydd cymesur mewn cyflog. Gwelsant filiynau yn cael eu gwario ar ddillad gwaith newydd a delwedd frand newydd, heb unrhyw fuddsoddiad yn y gweithlu sy’n sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth post yn gweithio.

I learned yesterday how crucial the goodwill of those post workers is in ensuring the smooth running of the service. It is time that we learned the lessons and valued the workforce that makes the service work. We must learn that splitting an organisation into little bits to introduce competition, is not the answer to producing a good service. The answer must lie in good and sound management, coupled with investment in the infrastructure that makes that service work.

Dysgais ddoe pa mor bwysig yw ewyllys da’r gweithwyr post hynny i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth yn rhedeg yn rhwydd. Mae’n bryd inni ddysgu’r gwersi a gwerthfawrogi’r gweithlu sy’n sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth yn gweithio. Rhaid inni ddysgu nad hollti sefydliad yn ddarnau bach er mwyn cyflwyno cystadleuaeth yw’r ateb i greu gwasanaeth da. Yr ateb yw rheoli da a chadarn, ynghyd â buddsoddiad yn y seilwaith sy’n sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth hwnnw yn gweithio.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 80

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

The Welsh Liberal Democrats share the concern of the Communications Workers Union that the sort of competition proposed by Postcomm will kill off door-to-door deliveries in areas that are difficult to reach, such as the countryside. We are also concerned about the impact of planned cuts by Consignia to deal with their £1.5 million a day deficit and the danger that this will lead to the closure of sub-post offices in urban areas as well as in rural communities.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn rhannu pryder Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu y bydd y math o gystadleuaeth a gynigir gan Postcomm yn dinistrio’r gwasanaeth dosbarthu o ddrws i ddrws mewn ardaloedd y mae’n anodd eu cyrraedd, megis cefn gwlad. Pryderwn hefyd am effaith toriadau arfaethedig Consignia i ddelio â’i ddiffyg o £1.5 miliwn y dydd a’r perygl y bydd hyn yn arwain at gau is-swyddfeydd post mewn ardaloedd trefol yn ogystal ag mewn cymunedau gwledig.

In 1995, there were 1,607 post offices in Wales. Last year, that number had fallen to 1,394. That is disastrous for many communities, especially rural communities. The post office is often the only facility of its type in a village, and residents have to travel miles to the nearest alternative. We should not underestimate the impact of post office closures on urban areas either. Many of these post offices provide a vital service to an increasingly ageing and immobile population and many people are more than inconvenienced when they close. For example, in my own community, the closure of a post office has forced local pensioners to negotiate a steep hill to another office without a convenient bus service.

Yn 1995, yr oedd 1,607 o swyddfeydd post yng Nghymru. Y llynedd, yr oedd y ffigur hwnnw wedi gostwng i 1,394. Mae hynny yn drychinebus i lawer o gymunedau, yn enwedig cymunedau gwledig. Y swyddfa bost yn aml yw’r unig gyfleuster o’i fath mewn pentref a rhaid i drigolion deithio milltiroedd i’r cyfleuster amgen agosaf. Ni ddylem fychanu’r effaith ar ardaloedd trefol pan fydd swyddfeydd post yn cau ychwaith. Mae llawer o’r swyddfeydd post hyn yn darparu gwasanaeth hanfodol i boblogaeth sy’n gynyddol heneiddio ac yn gaeth i’r tŷ ac mae’n anghyfleus iawn i lawer o bobl pan fydd swyddfa post yn cau. Er enghraifft, yn fy nghymuned i, yn sgîl cau swyddfa bost, rhaid i bensiynwyr lleol ddringo allt serth i gyrraedd swyddfa bost arall ac nid oes gwasanaeth bws cyfleus.

The closure of post offices between 1995 and 2001 is a continuation of a wider trend in the years before that. Between 1979 and 1997, nearly 4,500 post offices in the UK were closed. Clearly, we need a fundamental review of how we can keep these offices open in the face of huge losses by Consignia, privatisation and the changes to the benefit system. In that regard, I welcome the statement by the First Minister during questions a few weeks ago that the Welsh Assembly Government is considering setting up an urban deprived fund to promote post offices as a universal bank, making them the point of entry for a number of Government services.

Mae’r swyddfeydd post a gaewyd rhwng 1995 a 2001 yn barhad o duedd mwy cyffredinol yn y blynyddoedd cyn hynny. Rhwng 1979 a 1997, caewyd bron 4,500 o swyddfeydd post yn y DU. Yn amlwg, mae angen adolygiad sylfaenol o’r ffordd y gallwn gadw’r swyddfeydd hyn ar agor yn wyneb colledion enfawr Consignia, preifateiddio a’r newidiadau i’r system budd-daliadau. Yn y cyswllt hwnnw, croesawaf ddatganiad y Prif Weinidog yn ystod y sesiwn cwestiynau ychydig wythnosau yn ôl bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ystyried sefydlu cronfa ar gyfer ardaloedd trefol difreintiedig i hyrwyddo swyddfeydd post fel banc cyffredinol, gan eu gwneud yn fannau i gael gafael ar nifer o wasanaethau’r Llywodraeth.

All the surveys that have been carried out on postal services indicate a high level of satisfaction with what is currently on offer, a desire to retain door-to-door delivery and concern about what the privatisation agenda will bring to the postal service. It is right, of course, that new ways of making the postal service more efficient and effective are considered. However, we must start from the position that the postal service, having survived the Thatcherite zeal for privatisation, is a public service that has the trust and support of the vast majority of the population.

Dengys pob arolwg a gynhaliwyd ar wasanaethau post fod lefel uchel o foddhad ynghylch yr hyn a gynigir ar hyn o bryd, ac awydd i gadw’r gwasanaeth dosbarthu o ddrws i ddrws a phryder ynglŷn â’r hyn y bydd yr agenda preifateiddio yn ei olygu i’r gwasanaeth post. Mae’n briodol, wrth gwrs, ystyried ffyrdd newydd o sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth post yn fwy effeithlon ac effeithiol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ddechrau o’r sefyllfa lle mae’r gwasanaeth post, ar ôl goroesi’r sêl Thatcheraidd am breifateiddio, yn wasanaeth cyhoeddus sy’n ennyn ymddiriedaeth a chefnogaeth y mwyafrif llethol o’r boblogaeth.

Consignia’s chief executive has indicated that rural postal services are cross-subsidised by a number of big users, without whom a stamp in mid Wales could cost as much as £2. That is very worrying and is one reason why the Welsh Liberal Democrats cannot support Plaid Cymru’s amendment 3, which calls for a national postal service for Wales. It sounds good, and is in line with Plaid Cymru’s desire for full independence, but at what cost? How does it propose to replace the cross-subsidy, which will be lost if a Welsh postal service declared independence? If its proposals are adopted, we will inevitably have a £2 stamp courtesy of Plaid Cymru, presumably with Ieuan Wyn Jones’s head on it instead of the Queen’s.

Nododd prif weithredwr Consignia y caiff y gwasanaeth post gwledig ei groesnoddi gan nifer o ddefnyddwyr mawr, y gallai stamp yn y Canolbarth gostio cymaint â £2 hebddynt. Mae hynny’n achos pryder mawr iawn ac yn un rheswm pam na all Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru gefnogi gwelliant 3 Plaid Cymru, sy’n galw am wasanaeth post cenedlaethol i Gymru. Mae’n swnio’n dda, ac mae’n gyson â dymuniad Plaid Cymru am annibyniaeth lawn, ond am ba gost? Beth y mae’n ei gynnig yn lle’r croesnawdd, na fydd ar gael o dan wasanaeth post annibynnol i Gymru? Os mabwysiedir ei chynigion, yn anochel bydd gennym stamp £2 drwy garedigrwydd Plaid Cymru, gyda phen Ieuan Wyn Jones arno yn lle’r Frenhines siŵr o fod.

The postal service provides the backbone—

Y gwasanaeth post yw asgwrn cefn—

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 81

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Presumably you are happy with Postcomm’s proposals, which will have the same result as the ideas that you are outlining?

Cymeraf eich bod yn fodlon ar gynigion Postcomm, a gaiff yr un canlyniad â’r syniadau yr ydych yn eu disgrifio?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 81

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

If you had been listening to what I have been saying for the past three and a half minutes you will know that I am not happy about those proposals; indeed, I am opposed to them. However, your proposals will be equally as disastrous for the postal service in Wales.

Pe buasech yn gwrando ar yr hyn y bûm yn ei ddweud am y tair munud a hanner diwethaf, fe wyddoch nad wyf yn fodlon ar y cynigion hynny; yn wir, yr wyf yn eu gwrthwynebu. Fodd bynnag, bydd eich cynigion chi yr un mor drychinebus i’r gwasanaeth post yng Nghymru.

The postal service is the backbone of our national economy. Any so-called savings from privatisation would lead to commensurate damage to businesses in Wales. We should also look at the impact of the sort of proposals put forward by Postcomm on other countries. Liberalisation of postal services was tried in Sweden and Finland. In Sweden, nearly one in five postal workers lost their jobs, 28 per cent of post offices were closed and mail stopped being delivered systematically to people’s houses.

Y gwasanaeth post yw asgwrn cefn ein heconomi genedlaethol. Byddai unrhyw arbedion honedig yn sgîl preifateiddio yn gwneud drwg cymesur i fusnesau yng Nghymru. Dylem ystyried hefyd yr effaith a gafodd y math o gynigion a gynigiwyd gan Postcomm ar wledydd eraill. Rhoddwyd cynnig ar ryddfrydoli’r gwasanaethau post yn Sweden a’r Ffindir. Yn Sweden, collodd bron un o bob pum gweithiwr post ei swydd, caewyd 28 y cant o’r swyddfeydd post a daeth gwasanaeth dosbarthu systematig i dai pobl i ben.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 82

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I note your opposition to deregulation. Does that mean that you are out of line with the European Commission colleagues of whom you have been so fond in previous debates?

Nodaf eich gwrthwynebiad i ddadreoleiddio. A yw hynny yn golygu nad ydych yn cytuno â’ch cyd-aelodau yn y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd y buoch mor hoff ohonynt mewn dadleuon blaenorol?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 82

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

You need to define who those European Commission colleagues are, Alun. I have never expressed any love for any European commissioner. I am outlining Liberal Democrat policy.

Mae angen ichi ddweud pwy yw’r cyd-aelodau hynny yn y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Alun. Nid wyf erioed wedi mynegi hoffter tuag at unrhyw gomisiynydd Ewropeaidd. Yr wyf yn disgrifio polisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

In Finland, where this liberalisation was introduced, 23 per cent of postal workers lost their jobs and two thirds of the post offices were closed. There were similar results in New Zealand where the number of post offices declined from 894 in 1987 to 288 in 1991.

Yn y Ffindir, lle y cyflwynwyd rhyddfrydoli o’r fath yn gyntaf, collodd 23 y cant o weithwyr post eu swyddi a chaewyd dwy o bob tair swyddfa bost. Cafwyd canlyniadau tebyg yn Seland Newydd lle gostyngodd nifer y swyddfeydd post o 894 yn 1987 i 288 yn 1991.

Privatisation offers neither competition nor choice. All it offers is fewer postal workers, longer delivery times, fewer post offices and higher charges. Under Postcomm’s plans, the current advertising slogan of ‘I saw this and thought of you’, would change to ‘I saw this and thought of sending it to you, but I could not afford the postage and they do not deliver in your area anyway’. It is for that reason that we will support amendment 2.

Nid yw preifateiddio’n cynnig cystadleuaeth na dewis. Y cyfan a gynigia yw llai o weithwyr post, amseroedd dosbarthu hwy, llai o swyddfeydd post a thaliadau uwch. O dan gynlluniau Postcomm, byddai’r slogan hysbysebu a ddefnyddir ar hyn o bryd, sef ‘Fe welais i hyn a meddyliais amdanat ti’, yn newid i ‘Fe welais i hyn a meddyliais am ei anfon atat, ond ni allwn fforddio’r cludiant ac nid ydynt yn dosbarthu yn eich ardal chi, ta beth’. Am y rheswm hwnnw ni chefnogwn welliant 2.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 82

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

Few people would disagree that post offices and postal workers provide a vital public service in all parts of Wales. Their role in rural Wales is even more significant. All sides in this debate—Consignia, Postcomm and the European Commission—support the introduction of competition. I would be interested to hear from other Members as to where the union stands on this matter, because it has changed its position in recent times. Deregulation and increased competition have introduced great benefits in service and prices to consumers in previously privatised state industries, such as British Telecom and the utilities.

Ni fyddai llawer yn anghytuno bod y swyddfeydd post a gweithwyr post yn rhoi gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hanfodol ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae eu rôl yng Nghymru wledig yn bwysicach fyth. Mae pob ochr yn y ddadl hon—Consignia, Postcomm a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd—yn cefnogi cyflwyno cystadleuaeth. Byddai’n ddiddorol clywed gan Aelodau eraill beth yw barn yr undeb ar y mater hwn, gan ei fod wedi newid ei farn yn ddiweddar. Daeth manteision mawr i ddefnyddwyr o ran gwasanaeth a phrisiau yn sgîl dadreoleiddio a chyflwyno mwy o gystadleuaeth mewn diwydiannau gwladol wedi’u preifateiddio yn y gorffennol, megis British Telecom a’r cyfleustodau.

In terms of the introduction of competition, two options have been presented, one by the regulator, Postcomm, and the other by the European Commission. While each has a different approach to deregulation, the most important factor in this debate is timing. I welcome competition in as many areas of public service as possible, because the consumer—members of the public—will always benefit. However, during each previous privatisation, there has been an opportunity for companies originating from the public sector to prepare. That is the crux of today’s debate.

O ran cyflwyno cystadleuaeth, gosodwyd dau opsiwn gerbron, y naill gan y corff rheoleiddio, Postcomm, a’r llall gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Er bod gan y naill a’r llall ymagwedd wahanol tuag at ddadreoleiddio, y ffactor pwysicaf yn y ddadl hon yw amseriad. Croesawaf gystadleuaeth mewn cymaint â phosibl o feysydd o wasanaeth cyhoeddus, am fod defnyddwyr—aelodau o’r cyhoedd—bob amser ar eu hennill. Fodd bynnag, bob tro y cafwyd preifateiddio yn y gorffennol, bu cyfle i gwmnïau o’r sector cyhoeddus ymbaratoi. Dyna sydd wrth wraidd y ddadl heddiw.

The first step in the preparation was the Postal Services Act 2000, establishing the Post Office as a Government-owned public limited company, which I agree is a contradiction in terms. On the one hand, it maintained the shackles of government while, on the other, it exposed the organisation to the marketplace. Few companies have ever experienced such a double whammy.

Y cam cyntaf yn y broses o ymbaratoi oedd Deddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000, a sefydlodd Swyddfa’r Post fel cwmni cyhoeddus cyfyngedig yn eiddo i’r Llywodraeth, sy’n groesddywediad, fe gytunaf. Ar y naill llaw, cadwyd llyffetheiriau llywodraeth tra, ar y llall, agorwyd y sefydliad i’r farchnad. Ychydig iawn o gwmnïau sydd wedi cael ergyd ddwbl o’r fath.

The results of such actions speak for themselves: a half-yearly operating loss of £100 million and 547 sub-post office closures in the first year. That is why I intervened earlier when the First Minister mentioned recent bad times and when he referred to benefit payments by automated credit transfer in the future. Why has the situation deteriorated since the Postal Services Act 2000, under a Government that claims to stand for public services?

Mae canlyniadau gweithredu o’r fath yn hunanesboniadol: colled weithredol hanner blwyddyn o £100 miliwn a 547 o is-swyddfeydd post yn cau yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf. Dyna pam yr ymyrrais yn gynharach pan oedd y Prif Weinidog yn sôn am yr amserau gwael yn ddiweddar a phan gyfeiriodd at dalu budd-daliadau drwy drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd yn y dyfodol. Pam mae’r sefyllfa wedi dirywio ers Deddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000, o dan Lywodraeth sy’n honni ei bod o blaid gwasanaethau cyhoeddus?

Sub-post offices are businesses. Many people have invested large sums of money—their livelihoods, or their pensions in many respects—to provide services for local communities and to provide for their families. The UK Government’s plans to end payment of benefits through sub-post offices, thus ending the spending that that encourages, would endanger the livelihoods of sub-postmasters. This is why 547 sub-post offices closed in the first financial year after the act came into force.

Busnesau yw is-swyddfeydd post. Mae llawer o bobl wedi buddsoddi symiau mawr o arian—eu bywoliaethau neu eu pensiynau mewn llawer o achosion—i ddarparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer cymunedau lleol ac i ddarparu ar gyfer eu teuluoedd. Byddai bwriad Llywodraeth y DU i roi’r gorau i dalu budd-daliadau drwy is-swyddfeydd post, a thrwy hynny roi terfyn ar y gwario y mae hynny yn ei annog, yn peryglu bywoliaethau is-bostfeistri. Dyna pam y mae 547 o swyddfeydd post wedi cau yn y flwyddyn ariannol gyntaf ar ôl i’r ddeddf ddod i rym.

Deregulation is not the only threat to the postal service. Advances in information and communications technology allow people to communicate in a range of different ways, such as e-mail, text messaging and the internet, all of which provide greater freedom for consumers. Consignia must also compete with this new-found consumer freedom. Furthermore, the introduction of automated credit transfer for benefit payment will act as the last nail in the rural post office’s coffin. The planned introduction in April 2003 remains ill thought out; so much so that proposals for the universal bank—if that remains part of the UK Government’s plans—have not even been presented.

Nid dadreoleiddio yw’r unig fygythiad i’r gwasanaeth post. Mae datblygiadau ym maes technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu yn galluogi pobl i gyfathrebu mewn amrywiaeth o wahanol ffyrdd, megis e-bost, negeseua testun a’r rhyngrwyd, y rhydd pob un ohonynt fwy o ryddid i ddefnyddwyr. Rhaid i Consignia gystadlu hefyd â’r rhyddid newydd hwn i ddefnyddwyr. At hynny, cyflwyno trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd ar gyfer budd-daliadau fydd yr hoelen olaf yn arch swyddfeydd post gwledig. Erys y bwriad i gyflwyno hyn ym mis Ebrill 2003 yn un na roddwyd ystyriaeth ddigonol iddo; i’r fath raddau felly fel nad yw’r cynigion ar gyfer y banc cyffredinol—sy’n parhau i fod yn rhan o gynlluniau Llywodraeth y DU—hyd yn oed wedi’u cyflwyno eto.

Lack of planning, lack of understanding of the wider implications and lack of appropriate action by the UK Government has led to the mess that the postal service currently faces. In spite of this mess, Postcomm is pressing ahead with its proposals. They could easily have been met if the UK Government had allowed the postal service the freedom it required to restructure in order to meet the new challenges facing the industry. Although our powers are somewhat limited in this area, and although the mess is largely of the Government’s making, I hope that the First Minister will make representations to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and to the regulator, highlighting the need for action to prevent the closure of sub-post offices; to secure the universal service guarantee; to provide alternative sources of income to sub-post offices if it persists in introducing automated credit transfer; and to delay the introduction of competition until Consignia can act in the appropriate manner by restructuring, or downsizing if necessary, so that a universal service can be guaranteed.

Mae diffyg cynllunio, diffyg dealltwriaeth o’r goblygiadau ehangach a diffyg gweithredu priodol ar ran Llywodraeth y DU wedi arwain at y llanastr y mae’r gwasanaeth post yn ei wynebu ar hyn o bryd. Er gwaethaf y llanastr hwn, mae Postcomm yn bwrw ymlaen gyda’i gynigion. Gellid bod wedi eu cyflawni yn hawdd pe bai Llywodraeth y DU wedi rhoi’r rhyddid i’r gwasanaeth post yr oedd ei angen arno i ateb yr heriau newydd yr oedd y diwydiant yn eu hwynebu. Er bod ein pwerau braidd yn gyfyngedig yn y maes hwn, ac er mai’r Llywodraeth sy’n gyfrifol yn bennaf am y llanastr hwn, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Prif Weinidog sylwadau i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant ac i’r corff rheoleiddio, gan danlinellu’r ffaith bod angen gweithredu er mwyn atal is-swyddfeydd post rhag cau; rhoi sicrwydd gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad; rhoi ffynonellau amgen o incwm i is-swyddfeydd post os yw’r Llywodraeth yn mynnu cyflwyno trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd; a gohirio cyflwyno cystadleuaeth hyd nes y bydd Consignia yn gallu gweithredu’n briodol drwy ailstrwythuro neu gwtogi os oes rhaid, fel y gellir gwarantu gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 84

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I am glad that we have an opportunity to debate the consultation paper, as it will shape the future of the Post Office. Under the new rules on Members’ interests, I should declare that my daughter works for Consignia in London. She is a member of the Communication Workers Union. I will let her tell Alun whether she is militant. Heaven help you when she has finished with you.

Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn cael y cyfle hwn i drafod y papur ymgynghori, oherwydd bydd yn llunio dyfodol Swyddfa’r Post. O dan y rheolau newydd ar fuddiannau’r Aelodau, dylwn ddatgan bod fy merch yn gweithio i Consignia yn Llundain. Mae’n aelod o Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu. Gadawaf iddi hi ddweud wrth Alun pa un a yw’n filwriaethus ai peidio. Duw a’ch helpo ar ôl iddi ddweud ei dweud wrthych.

I will start, like so many others, by praising the dedication—

Dechreuaf, fel cynifer o’r Aelodau eraill, drwy ganmol ymroddiad—

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 85

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

Does Ann recognise the damage that the CWU did to potential inward investors when it illegally striked in Cardiff before Christmas one year?

A yw Ann yn cydnabod y niwed a wnaeth Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu o safbwynt darpar fewnfuddsoddwyr pan gynhaliodd streic anghyfreithlon yng Nghaerdydd cyn y Nadolig ryw flwyddyn?

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 85

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I will always defend a trade union’s right to exercise its rights. I fought for a long time to ensure that the fire brigade union would not give up its right to strike. I am proud of that, and continue to be so. As I said, my daughter can speak for herself.

Byddaf bob amser yn amddiffyn hawl undeb llafur i ymarfer ei hawliau. Brwydrais am gyfnod hir i sicrhau na fyddai undeb y frigâd dân yn ildio ei hawl i gynnal streic. Ymfalchïaf yn hynny, ac yr wyf yn parhau i wneud hynny. Fel y dywedais, gall fy merch siarad drosti’i hun.

I pay my tribute to the men and women who deliver the post day in, day out. Many of us who have tried to deliver leaflets at various times throughout our careers will know about the dangers of letterboxes and the sore fingers that they can cause. We must recognise that Post Office workers offer a valuable service. Peter Law ably told us of the service that they provide in rural areas.

Talaf deyrnged i’r dynion a’r merched sy’n dosbarthu’r post o ddydd i ddydd. Gŵyr llawer ohonom sydd wedi ceisio dosbarthu taflenni ar wahanol adegau yn ystod ein gyrfaoedd am beryglon twll llythyrau a’r bysedd tost y gallant eu hachosi. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod gweithwyr Swyddfa’r Post yn darparu gwasanaeth gwerthfawr. Dywedodd Peter Law yn huawdl wrthym am y gwasanaeth a ddarparant mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Labour’s Postal Services Act 2000 has given the Post Office the commercial freedom that has long been sought by its management and its unions. It has enshrined in law for the first time the principle of a universal service at an affordable, uniform tariff. Janet Ryder had some concerns about that, but at least that is stated there. The Act has established a regulator, Postcomm, with a primary duty to ensure the provision of the universal service and, if it is in the interests of consumers, to introduce more competition. It has also established the Consumer Council for Postal Services to be the voice of the consumer in the new regulated market.

Mae Deddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000 Llafur wedi rhoi’r rhyddid masnachol i Swyddfa’r Post y bu ei rheolwyr a’i hundebau yn gofyn amdano ers amser. Diogelwyd yn y gyfraith am y tro cyntaf yr egwyddor o wasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad am bris safonol fforddiadwy. Bu rhai pryderon gan Janet Ryder ynglŷn â hynny, ond o leiaf mae wedi’i nodi yno. Mae’r Ddeddf wedi sefydlu corff rheoleiddio, Postcomm, â dyletswydd syflaenol i sicrhau darpariaeth y gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad ac, os bydd o fudd i ddefnyddwyr, i gyflwyno mwy o gystadleuaeth. Mae hefyd wedi sefydlu Cyngor Defnyddwyr Gwasanaethau Post fel llais y defnyddiwr yn y farchnad newydd wedi’i rheoleiddio.

Postcomm’s primary duty is to maintain the universal service. There is no reason why competition should have a significant effect on local sub post offices. We have heard today that automated credit transfer is being used as a way of closing rural post offices. We must realise that many people choose to have their pensions paid straight into their bank accounts. That is their right. However, we must ensure that we keep an eye on the impact of supermarkets on small newsagents and other businesses that host sub post offices.

Dyletswydd sylfaenol Postcomm yw cynnal gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad. Nid oes rheswm pam y dylai cystadleuaeth gael effaith sylweddol ar is-swyddfeydd post lleol. Clywsom heddiw fod trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd yn cael ei ddefnyddio fel ffordd o gau swyddfeydd post gwledig. Rhaid inni sylweddoli bod llawer o bobl yn dewis trefnu i’w pensiynau gael eu talu’n uniongyrchol i’w cyfrifon banc. Dyna eu hawl. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn cadw llygad ar effaith archfarchnadoedd ar siopau papurau newydd bach a busnesau eraill sy’n cynnal is-swyddfeydd post.

There is no threat to the basic principles of a universal service and a uniform tariff. However, we must recognise that European legislation will open up postal services to competition in a few years’ time. Although it is a difficult time for Consignia, change is inevitable. The challenge is to try to help it to make those changes while ensuring that customers receive the best possible service and workers have the best possible conditions.

Nid oes bygythiad i egwyddorion sylfaenol gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad a rhestr brisiau safonol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod y bydd deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yn agor gwasanaethau post i gystadleuaeth ymhen ychydig o flynyddoedd. Er ei bod yn amser anodd i Consignia, mae newid yn anochel. Yr her yw ceisio ei helpu i wneud y newidiadau hynny tra’n sicrhau y caiff cwsmeriaid y gwasanaeth gorau posibl ac y caiff gweithwyr yr amodau gorau posibl.

Much has been said about where we go now in terms of the universal service and uniform tariffs, so I will not discuss that in detail. I will make a point on cherry-picking. We should be concerned about the cherry-picking of services. We cannot allow it to be at the expense of remote areas and services that no one wants to deliver. The private sector is only allowed to operate delivery services in Cardiff, Swansea, and the English cities. It will carefully consider whether it can compete with Consignia. However, there is little chance of the private sector being able to compete with Consignia in my constituency, the Vale of Clwyd. It could only compete in Cardiff because mail delivered by Consignia around Cardiff cross-subsidises the cost of deliveries in my constituency. Postcomm must ensure that Consignia does not end up only doing business in areas where its competitors cannot reach.

Dywedwyd llawer am ble yr ydym yn mynd yn awr o ran gwasanaeth cyffredinol ledled y wlad a rhestr brisiau safonol, felly ni fanylaf ar hynny. Gwnaf bwynt ynglŷn â dewis a dethol y rhannau mwyaf proffidiol. Dylem ofidio am hynny. Ni allwn adael i hynny ddigwydd ar draul ardaloedd anghysbell a gwasanaethau nad oes neb am eu cyflwyno. Dim ond yng Nghaerdydd, Abertawe, a dinasoedd Lloegr y caniateir i’r sector preifat weithredu gwasanaethau dosbarthu. Bydd yn ystyried yn ddwys a all gystadlu yn erbyn Consignia. Fodd bynnag, nid oes fawr o obaith y gall y sector preifat gystadlu yn erbyn Cosignia yn fy etholaeth i, sef Dyffryn Clwyd. Mae ond yn gallu cystadlu yng Nghaerdydd am fod y post a ddosberthir gan Consignia o amgylch Caerdydd yn croesnoddi cost y dosbarthiadau yn fy etholaeth i. Rhaid i Postcomm sicrhau nad yw Consignia yn y pen draw ond yn cynnal busnes yn yr ardaloedd hynny na all eu cystadleuwyr eu cyrraedd.

Labour has no intention of privatising the Post Office. We need to ensure that we get the balance right between services, levels, prices and fair competition. We need the right regulatory system, promoting service, innovation and efficiency, to ensure that a new commercial freedom can make the Post Office secure in public hands—

Nid oes gan Lafur unrhyw fwriad i brefateiddio Swyddfa’r Post. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn cael y cydbwysedd iawn rhwng gwasanaethau, lefelau, prisiau a chystadleuaeth deg. Mae angen y system reoleiddio gywir arnom, a fyddai’n hyrwyddo arloesedd ac effeithlonrwydd y gwasanaeth, er mwyn sicrhau y gall rhyddid masnachol newydd ddiogelu dyfodol Swyddfa’r Post yn nwylo cyhoeddus—

Janet Ryder a gododd—

Janet Ryder rose—

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 87

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I am coming to the end, Janet, and I have nearly run out of time. Whatever else we see in the future in the Post Office, there must be a new relationship between trade unions and the management. That is essential if the challenges of the many market threats that face the Post Office are to be met successfully in years to come.

Yr wyf yn dirwyn i ben, Janet, ac mae fy amser bron ar ben. Pa beth bynnag arall a welwn yn Swyddfa’r Post yn y dyfodol, rhaid cael perthynas newydd rhwng undebau llafur a’r rheolwyr. Mae hynny yn hanfodol er mwyn i Swyddfa’r Post lwyddo yn y dyfodol i ateb heriau’r bygythiadau lu o’r farchnad y mae’n eu hwynebu.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 87

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

On 24 May 2000, in my short debate, I started the campaign in the Assembly to save our post offices: Cadwch eich swyddfa bost—Keep your post office. It is interesting that we were talking then about automated credit transfer and the way in which it would affect all small post offices—not only those in rural areas, but also those on housing estates. We have seen its effect: in 2000-01, 68 post offices in Wales were closed—that is a closure rate of 4.6 per cent compared to the UK average of 2.9 per cent. It is heartwarming to hear, therefore, that with the action that has been taken, there has been a reduction to 28 closures.

Ar 24 Mai 2000, yn fy nadl fer, dechreuais yr ymgyrch yn y Cynulliad i achub ein swyddfeydd post: Cadwch eich swyddfa bost. Mae’n ddiddorol inni sôn bryd hynny am drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd a’r ffordd y byddai’n effeithio ar bob swyddfa bost fach—nid yn unig y rhai mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ond hefyd y rhai ar ystadau tai. Gwelsom ei effeithiau: yn 2000-01, caewyd 68 o swyddfeydd post yng Nghymru—sef cyfradd cau o 4.6 y cant o’i chymharu â 2.9 y cant ar gyfartaledd yn y DU. Mae’n galonogol clywed, felly, fod y nifer wedi gostwng i 28 ar ôl y camau a gymerwyd.

We cannot underestimate the importance of sub-post offices. On 24 May 2000, I suggested that, if ACT was implemented—and it is being implemented—even Cardiff would lose approximately half its post offices in areas such as Llanrumney and Splott. The reason for this is that those post offices are small businesses. As somebody said a moment ago—people have invested in them and they are their pension for the future. If their turnover depends so heavily on the distribution of government benefits, those people have a problem. They will work for as long as they possibly can, and then they will drop. I am concerned, not only because they are small businesses, but because they serve our communities and provide a wide range of government and commercial services. Their existence helps to maintain other shopping facilities on housing estates. The post office often becomes the last remaining shop in an area, serving as a grocery shop or off-licence, sometimes even a petrol station. Whatever the future of postal services in Wales may be, services and support for our sub-postmasters must be improved. They work hard and provide a service.

Ni allwn danbrisio pwysigrwydd is-swyddfeydd post. Ar 24 Mai 2000, awgrymais, pe câi trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd ei weithredu—ac mae’n cael ei weithredu—y byddai hyd yn oed Caerdydd yn colli tua hanner ei swyddfeydd post mewn ardaloedd megis Llanrhymni a Sblot. Y rheswm dros hyn yw mai busnesau bach yw’r swyddfeydd post hynny. Fel y dywedodd rhywun eiliad yn ôl—mae pobl wedi buddsoddi ynddynt a’r swyddfeydd post yw eu pensiwn hwy at y dyfodol. Os yw eu trosiant yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar ddosbarthu budd-daliadau’r llywodraeth, mae problem gan y bobl hynny. Byddant yn gweithio am gyhyd ag y gallant, ac yna’n diffygio. Pryderaf, nid yn unig am eu bod yn fusnesau bach, ond am eu bod yn gwasanaethu ein cymunedau ac yn darparu ystod eang o wasanaethau’r llywodraeth a gwasanaethau masnachol. Mae eu bodolaeth yn helpu i gynnal cyfleusterau siopa eraill ar ystadau tai. Y swyddfa bost yn aml yw’r siop olaf ar agor mewn ardal, gan wasanaethu fel siop groser neu siop drwyddedig, neu orsaf betrol hyd yn oed weithiau. Pa ddyfodol bynnag sydd i’r gwasanaethau post yng Nghymru, rhaid gwella gwasanaethau a chymorth i’n his-bostfeistri. Maent yn gweithio’n galed ac yn darparu gwasanaeth.

The implementation of the horizon computer system—which, fortunately, and despite being a computer system, has been quite successful—was hard work at the time, and sub-postmasters did not know what it would mean for their businesses. I suggested on 24 May 2000, that the horizon system should be extended to allow people to book rail or theatre tickets, and gain access to many other services. There is a similar project in Leicestershire, ‘Your Guide’, and I volunteered my constituency to be the first in Wales to try it, because I realised that the sub-post office could be the Government’s first stop shop—there is no reason why it should not be. I also hoped that BT would get involved with our sub-post offices, and install internet-connected telephones, so that the public could use them there. In that way, the post office could be developed to serve the wider community.

Bu gweithredu’r system gyfrifiadurol horizon —a fu’n llwyddiannus, yn ffodus, er gwaethaf y ffaith mai system gyfrifiadurol ydyw—yn waith caled ar y pryd, ac ni wyddai is-bostfeistri beth a olygai i’w busnesau. Awgrymais ar 24 Mai 2000, y dylid ymestyn system horizon i alluogi pobl i archebu tocynnau rheilffyrdd neu docynnau theatr, a chael mynediad i lawer o wasanaethau eraill. Mae prosiect tebyg ar droed yn Swydd Gaerlŷr, ‘Your Guide’, a gwirfoddolais fy etholaeth i roi cynnig arno yn gyntaf yng Nghymru, cyn imi sylweddoli y gallai’r is-swyddfeydd post fod yn siopau un stop y Llywodraeth—nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na ddylent fod. Yr oeddwn yn gobeithio hefyd y byddai BT yn defnyddio ein his-swyddfeydd post, a gosod ffonau sydd wedi’u cysylltu â’r rhyngrwyd, fel y gallai’r cyhoedd eu defnyddio yno. Yn y ffordd honno gellid datblygu swyddfa’r post i wasanaethau’r gymuned ehangach.

I believe that ACT was the thin end of the wedge for sub-post offices, although some would argue that selling stamps at the petrol station or the sweet shop was the thin end of the wedge, because that removed the very reason why people went to their post offices. Strangely enough, many people complain about losing their post office, but when you ask them when they last used it, you get a curious reply. I declare that I am a post office user. I have not been to my bank in the last two years, because I use the post office to cash my cheques. I want my post office to remain to serve the community.

Credaf mai’r hoelen olaf i’r is-swyddfeydd post oedd trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd, er y byddai rhai yn dadlau mai gwerthu stampiau mewn gorsafoedd petrol neu siopau melysion oedd yr hoelen olaf, am fod hynny yn cael gwared â’r union reswm pam yr âi pobl i’w swyddfeydd post. Yn rhyfedd, mae llawer o bobl yn achwyn ynglŷn â cholli eu swyddfa bost, ond pan ofynnwch iddynt pryd oedd y tro diwethaf iddynt ei defnyddio, cewch ateb rhyfedd. Datganaf fy mod yn ddefnyddiwr swyddfa bost. Nid wyf wedi bod i’m banc yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, am fy mod yn defnyddio’r swyddfa bost i newid sieciau. Yr wyf am i’m swyddfa bost barhau i wasanaethu’r gymuned.

Closing a sub-post office has a disastrous knock-on effect on our communities. We have already heard that elderly and disabled people must go elsewhere; in some cases, elderly people have told me that going to the bank to collect their pension takes all day, and that they lose half of the money they collect on the four bus fares—two there and two back. What is the point of that?

Mae sgîl-effeithiau trychinebus i’n cymunedau pan gaeir is-swyddfa bost. Clywsom eisoes fod yn rhaid i bobl oedrannus ac anabl fynd rhywle arall; mewn rhai achosion, dywedodd rhai pobl oedrannus wrthyf fod mynd i’r banc i gasglu eu pensiynau yn cymryd drwy’r dydd, a’u bod yn colli hanner yr arian a gasglant ar bedwar tocyn bws—dau ar y ffordd yno a dau’n dod yn ôl. Beth yw pwynt hynny?

The obvious answer is to enhance our post offices so that they better serve our communities, while also providing a national service.

Yr ateb amlwg yw gwella ein swyddfeydd post fel eu bod yn gwasanaethu ein cymunedau’n well, tra’n darparu gwasanaeth cenedlaethol hefyd.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Order. You must wind up, Brian.

Trefn. Rhaid ichi ddirwyn i ben, Brian.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 89

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

We could develop them even further. I like the idea of the one-stop shop, and I have said so on numerous occasions. How about developing credit unions through our post offices? The most important thing to worry about is the different ramping up of the contract that Postcomm is doing. It could easily slow it down. Please support the motion.

Gallem eu datblygu ymhellach. Yr wyf yn hoffi’r syniad o siop un stop, ac wedi dweud hynny sawl gwaith. Beth am ddatblygu undebau credyd drwy ein swyddfeydd post? Y peth pwysicaf i bryderu yn ei gylch yw’r ffordd y mae Postcomm yn codi pris uwch am rannau gwahanol o’r contract. Gallai arafu hynny yn hawdd. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 89

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I am deeply concerned about the Postcomm proposals, which are a threat to customers and post office workers alike in my constituency. It does not take a genius to work out what will happen if it is left to the free market: cherry-picking in cities and service withdrawals in rural areas. You do not need a Master of Business Administration degree from Harvard to work out that operators will not be queueing up to compete in Pentrefoelas or Cerrigydrudion. Postal deliveries in rural areas are a natural monopoly. Where natural monopolies exist, they are best placed in the public sector under democratic control and accountability. We have seen Railtrack; we do not want Post-track. Rather than undermine the universal delivery of letters, we should be extending it across the European Union. A single price from Ruthin to the Ruhr: that should be the role of Deutsche Post and La Poste Française—collaboration across nations, not competition.

Mae gennyf bryderon mawr iawn ynglŷn â chynigion Postcomm, sy’n fygythiad i gwsmeriaid a gweithwyr Swyddfa’r Post fel ei gilydd yn fy etholaeth i. Nid oes angen meddu ar athrylith i ragweld yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd os caiff ei adael i’r farchnad rydd; dewis a dethol y rhannau mwyaf proffidiol mewn dinasoedd a thynnu gwasanaethau yn ôl mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Nid oes angen bod â gradd Meistr mewn Gweinyddiaeth Busnes o Harvard i ragweld na fydd cwmnïau yn ysu am gael cystadlu yn Mhentrefoelas neu Gerrigydrudion. Mae dosbarthiadau post mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn fonopoli naturiol. Lle y bo monopolïau naturiol, y lle gorau iddynt yw o dan reolaeth ac atebolrwydd democrataidd yn y sector cyhoeddus. Gwelsom Railtrack; nid ydym am weld Post-track. Yn hytrach na thanseilio’r gwasanaeth dosbarthu llythyrau cyffredinol ledled y wlad, dylem ei estyn ar draws yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Yr un pris o Ruthun i Ruhr: dyna ddylai fod rôl Deutsche Post a La Poste Française—cydweithredu ar draws y cenhedloedd, nid cystadlu.

Finally, I record my thanks to the hard-working postal staff in Wales. I had the opportunity to work on the Christmas mail many years ago when I was a student. I say to Alun Cairns that delivering mail in cold temperatures and pouring rain on half our salaries is not a lot of fun. More recently, I had the opportunity to visit the Colwyn Bay and Ruthin sorting offices during the Christmas rush. The staff there deserve our support, not a threat to their livelihoods.

I gloi, hoffwn gofnodi fy niolch i’r staff post gweithgar yng Nghymru. Cefais y cyfle i weithio ar bost y Nadolig flynyddoedd maith yn ôl pan oeddwn yn fyfyriwr. Dywedaf wrth Alun Cairns nad yw dosbarthu’r post mewn tymereddau isel a glaw trwm am hanner ein cyflog yn fawr o hwyl. Yn fwy diweddar, cefais y cyfle i ymweld â swyddfeydd didoli Bae Colwyn a Rhuthun yn ystod y cyfnod prysur dros y Nadolig. Mae’r staff yno yn haeddu ein cefnogaeth, nid bygythiad i’w bywoliaeth.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 90

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I hardly disagree with anything that the First Minister said in opening this debate. In fact, I rather enjoyed it. I thought that the presentation was professorial, like a tutorial. He introduced the subject, outlined it and gave us both sides of the argument. I must say, I have an old-fashioned sense of us looking to the First Minister for a degree of leadership when he speaks, which is the one thing that he lacks. I hope that he gives us some idea of his own thoughts in his reply.

Prin fy mod yn anghytuno ag unrhyw beth a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrth agor y ddadl hon. Yn wir, mwynheais ei araith. Credais fod y cyflwyniad yn athrawol, fel tiwtorial. Cyflwynodd bwnc, ei ddisgrifio ac yna rhoi dwy ochr y ddadl. Rhaid dweud, yr wyf yn hen ffasiwn wrth ddisgwyl i’r Prif Weinidog roi ychydig o arweinyddiaeth inni pan fydd yn siarad, sef yr un peth nad oes ganddo. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn rhoi rhyw amcan inni o’i farn ei hun wrth ateb y ddadl.

I pay tribute to the postmen and women who have always been such a crucial part of the area where I live. Even the Christmas post is important and, who knows, perhaps Alun Pugh was one of those who delivered the mail in the past. I pay tribute to their terrific commitment.

Talaf deyrnged i’r dynion a’r merched post sydd bob amser wedi bod yn rhan mor bwysig yn yr ardal lle yr wyf yn byw. Mae hyd yn oed post y Nadolig yn bwysig, a phwy a ŵyr, efallai mai Alun Pugh oedd un o’r rhai a ddosbarthodd y post yn y gorffennol. Talaf deyrnged i’w hymrwymiad aruthrol.

The First Minster was right to say that there are problems with sub-post offices and there will be even more problems due to ACT, as many Members have said. However, we must recognise that ACT was introduced by the Labour Government. The First Minister talked as if it had nothing to do with the Labour Government. No-one knows whether the proposals of the previous Government would have been a huge success—you can never tell because they were not given the chance. However, the Labour Government introduced ACT, and anything that happens as a result must be put down as the success of a Labour Government. It is worth considering what has happened over the past few years—

Yr oedd y Prif Weinidog yn llygad ei le i ddweud bod problemau o ran yr is-swyddfeydd post ac y bydd hyd yn oed mwy o broblemau oherwydd trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd, fel y dywedodd llawer o’r Aelodau eraill. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod mai’r Llywodraeth Lafur a gyflwynodd drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd. Bu’r Prif Weinidog yn siarad fel pe nad oes a wnelo dim â’r Llywodraeth Lafur. Ni ŵyr neb a fyddai cynigion y Llywodraeth flaenorol wedi bod yn llwyddiant mawr—ni allwch byth ddweud oherwydd ni roddwyd cynnig arnynt. Fodd bynnag, y Llywodraeth Lafur a gyflwynodd drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd, a rhaid priodoli unrhyw beth a ddigwydd o ganlyniad yn llwyddiant Llywodraeth Lafur. Mae’n werth ystyried yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf—

Brian Hancock a gododd—

Brian Hancock rose—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 91

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I will give way in a moment, Brian, but I want to finish this point.

Ildiaf mewn munud, Brian, ond hoffwn orffen y pwynt hwn.

The Postal Services Act 2000 was introduced by Stephen Byers, before he moved on to take care of our railways. What has happened since then? There have been 30,000 job losses, second post has ended and afternoon deliveries are standard in certain areas. All of those are Labour successes. We must remember that.

Cyflwynwyd y Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Post 2000 gan Stephen Byers, cyn iddo symud ymlaen i ofalu am ein rheilffyrdd. Beth a ddigwyddodd ers hynny? Bu 30,000 o ddiswyddiadau, daeth yr ail ddosbarthiad i ben ac mae dosbarthiadau y prynhawn yn safonol mewn ardaloedd penodol. Llwyddiannau Llafur yw pob un o’r rheini. Rhaid inni gofio hynny.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 91

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I heard that the previous Tory Government had the same policy on its books and that when the New Labour Government was voted in, it implemented it as it has done with other such policies.

Clywais fod y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd flaenorol wedi arfaethu’r un polisi a phan enillodd Llywodraeth Lafur Newydd yr etholiad cyffredinol, gweithredodd y polisi, fel y gwnaeth yn achos polisïau eraill o’r fath.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 91

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Where does Plaid Cymru hear these things? I never know. Judging from some of what Brian says, I would be suspicious of his sources.

Ymhle y mae Plaid Cymru yn clywed y pethau hyn? Nid wyf byth yn gwybod. O ystyried rhai o’r pethau y mae Brian yn ei ddweud, byddwn yn amau ei ffynonellau.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 91

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

May I give you my source? I was a Member of Parliament when this policy was presented by the Conservatives as their vision.

A gaf roi fy ffynhonnell ichi? Yr oeddwn yn Aelod Seneddol pan gyflwynwyd y polisi hwn gan y Ceidwadwyr fel eu gweledigaeth hwy.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 91

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

What was your view on that? I am always interested in Plaid Cymru’s position—half of you were probably on one side and half on the other. That is typical—

Beth oedd eich barn ar hynny? Yr wyf bob amser yn ymddiddori yn safbwynt Plaid Cymru—yr oedd hanner ohonoch o blaid a hanner yn erbyn siŵr o fod. Mae hynny’n nodweddiadol—

Alun Cairns a gododd—

Alun Cairns rose—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 91

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I am not giving way, Alun, although I am sure that you would make a sensible contribution and would put Ieuan in his place far better than I did.

Nid ildiaf, Alun, er fy mod yn siŵr y byddech yn gwneud cyfraniad synhwyrol ac yn rhoi Ieuan yn ei le yn well nag a wneuthum i.

I will move on to Postcomm’s proposals, which are worrying. I was pleased that the First Minister said that he thought there had been some back-tracking on them. I hope that that is the case and that he will continue to encourage that. I do not know about it myself.

Symudaf ymlaen at gynigion Postcomm, sy’n rhai sy’n peri gofid. Yr oedd yn dda gennyf glywed y Prif Weinidog yn dweud ei fod ef yn credu y bu peth ailfeddwl arnynt. Gobeithiaf mai dyna yw’r sefyllfa ac y gwnaiff barhau i annog hynny. Ni wn am hynny fy hun.

I have nothing against competition. You would not expect a Conservative AM to say anything else. However, my party has always taken the view that to privatise the Post Office, in the fullest sense, is a dangerous road down which to go and has to be dealt with carefully. I am sure that Ieuan will remember Margaret Thatcher saying that she did not want to take on the Post Office—and she would have taken on almost anything. It has always been important to tackle this area. I agree with Nick Bourne that if we introduce a level of privatisation, it must be done fairly. We cannot introduce a system of privatisation into Britain that would enable European semi-privatised post offices to come and pinch the profitable parts of the business—we cannot have that. If we are to have privatisation, it must be done in such a way as to prevent cross-border appropriation of business. The best option by far is to go along with the European regulators. We do not need what Poscomm suggests for Britain.

Nid oes gennyf ddim yn erbyn cystadleuaeth. Ni fyddech yn disgwyl AC Ceidwadol i ddweud dim gwahanol. Fodd bynnag, mae fy mhlaid o hyd wedi arddel yr agwedd bod preifateiddio Swyddfa’r Post, yn yr ystyr lawnaf, yn llwybr peryglus i’w droedio a bod yn rhaid ymdrin ag ef yn ofalus. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Ieuan yn cofio i Margaret Thatcher ddweud nad oedd hi am herio’r Swyddfa Bost—a byddai hi wedi herio bron unrhyw beth. Bu mynd i’r afael â’r maes hwn yn bwysig erioed. Cytunaf â Nick Bourne, os cyflwynwn lefel o breifateiddio, rhaid gwneud hynny’n deg. Ni allwn gyflwyno system breifateiddio ym Mhrydain a fyddai’n galluogi swyddfeydd post lled-breifat Ewrop i ddod a dwyn y rhannau mwyaf proffidiol o’r busnes—ni allwn oddef hynny. Os ydym i gael preifateiddio, rhaid ei wneud yn y fath fodd fel bod dwyn busnes traws-ffiniol yn cael ei atal. Y dewis gorau o bell ffordd yw cydweithredu â’r rheoleiddwyr Ewropeaidd. Nid oes arnom angen yr hyn y mae Postcomm yn ei awgrymu ar gyfer Prydain.

When the First Minister sums up, I hope that he will address two matters. First, I would like him to say where we stand in terms of the universal bank, which he mentioned. We are uncertain about the future of that proposal. It is supposed to help sub-post offices and the situation with ACT. I want him to make a commitment to lead on the Assembly’s view and to oppose, as forcefully as he can, Postcomm’s proposals, because he thinks that they are wrong. Show some leadership on this and tell everyone that you think that they are wrong.

Pan fydd y Prif Weinidog yn crynhoi, gobeithiaf y bydd yn mynd i’r afael â dau fater. Yn gyntaf, byddwn am iddo ddweud lle y safwn o ran y banc cyffredinol y soniodd amdano. Yr ydym yn ansicr am ddyfodol y cynnig hwnnw. Ei fwriad yw helpu’r is-swyddfeydd post a’r sefyllfa o ran trosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd. Yr wyf am iddo ymrwymo i arwain barn y Cynulliad ac i wrthwynebu, mor gadarn ag y gall, gynigion Postcomm oherwydd ei fod o’r farn eu bod yn anghywir. Dangoswch rywfaint o arweiniad yn y mater hwn a dywedwch wrth bawb eich bod yn credu eu bod yn anghywir.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 92

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Rural post offices, prompt deliveries and cheap stamps are what we have come to expect from our postal services in Wales thanks to our dedicated postal staff, as Peter Law said. The need for serious reform is not in question and the twin-track reforms by Postcomm and the performance and innovation unit will ensure that the Post Office will eventually be in much better shape. I welcome the news that the Consignia bosses will not take the suggested 10 per cent pay rise while they are forecasting 30,000 job losses. Why the remuneration committee thought that such a rise was necessary is anyone’s guess. The postal workers will receive a 6.9 per cent pay increase, which will give the company the stability that it needs. The removal of the threat of a strike is helpful. Opening up the bulk mail sector to competition is essential, even if it does turn out to represent more than 30 per cent of Consignia’s business.

Daethom i ddisgwyl swyddfeydd post gwledig, post prydlon a stampiau rhad gan ein gwasanaethau post yng Nghymru, diolch i’n gweithwyr post ymroddedig fel y dywedodd Peter Law. Ni wadir yr angen am ddiwygio difrifol a bydd y diwygiadau deublyg gan Postcomm a’r uned berfformio ac arloesi yn sicrhau y bydd Swyddfa’r Post mewn cyflwr gwell yn y pen draw. Croesawaf y newyddion na wnaiff penaethiaid Consignia dderbyn y codiad cyflog a awgrymwyd o 10 y cant tra eu bod yn rhagweld colli 30,000 o swyddi. Pam oedd y pwyllgor tâl o’r farn bod codiad o’r fath yn angenrheidiol, dyn a ŵyr. Bydd y gweithwyr post yn derbyn codiad cyflog o 6.9 y cant a fydd yn rhoi’r sefydlogrwydd sydd ei angen ar y cwmni. Mae dileu bygythiad streic yn gymorth. Mae agor y sector post trwm i gystadleuaeth yn hanfodol, hyd yn oed os bydd yn golygu mwy na 30 y cant o fusnes Consignia yn y pen draw.

Those who will bid for the consolidated licences and other more locally based ones must get some return out of their investment. Although I share concerns about cherry-picking, Postcomm is legally bound to protect the universal service, and former monopolies in Europe that have opened up to similar competition have retained 90 per cent of their former market share. Successfully introducing competition while protecting the quality of customer services and current levels of employment is not easy. I hope that any future job losses could be mitigated, and that any savings achieved through the use of technology could be redirected into employing those workers elsewhere.

Bydd yn rhaid i’r sawl a fydd yn cynnig am y trwyddedau cyfunol a rhai sydd wedi ei lleoli’n fwy lleol gael rhyw elw o’u buddsoddiad. Er fy mod yn rhannu’r pryderon am ddewis y rhannau gorau, mae Postcomm o dan rwymedigaeth gyfreithiol i amddiffyn y gwasanaeth cyffredinol, ac mae cyn fonopolïau yn Ewrop sydd wedi agor i gystadleuaeth debyg wedi cadw 90 y cant o’u cyfran flaenorol o’r farchnad. Nid yw’n hawdd cyflwyno cystadleuaeth yn llwyddiannus tra’n amddiffyn ansawdd gwasanaethau cwsmeriaid a’r lefelau cyflogaeth presennol. Gobeithiaf y gellir lleihau unrhyw swyddi a gollir yn y dyfodol ac y gallai unrhyw arbedion a enillir drwy ddefnyddio technoleg gael eu hailgyfeirio i gyflogi’r gweithwyr hynny mewn mannau eraill.

This is the first time in over a decade that major public money has been invested in the Post Office. We are picking up the pieces and turning the ship around, albeit slowly. Within a relatively small amount of time, we have set up a watchdog and brought forward two comprehensive plans to update and rationalise the service while preserving low costs and quick deliveries. I know that Consignia is much more than the Post Office, but the Shadow Secretary of State for Trade and Industry’s idea to separate the Royal Mail from the Post Office is wrong. How logical is it, after a major reorganisation and weeks before opening up to competition, to separate the cart from the horse—or should I say, rather naughtily—the train from the track.

Dyma’r tro cyntaf mewn mwy na degawd i arian cyhoeddus o bwys gael ei fuddsoddi yn Swyddfa’r Post. Yr ydym yn codi’r darnau ac yn gweddnewid pethau, er yn raddol efallai. O fewn cyfnod cymharol fyr yr ydym wedi sefydlu pwyllgor gwarchod ac wedi cyflwyno dau gynllun cynhwysfawr i ddiweddaru a rhesymoli’r gwasanaeth tra’n cynnal costau isel a dosbarthiad cyflym. Gwn fod Consignia yn llawer iawn mwy na Swyddfa’r Post, ond y mae syniad Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yr wrthblaid dros Fasnach a Diwydiant i wahanu’r Post Brenhinol oddi wrth Swyddfa’r Post yn anghywir. Pa mor rhesymegol yw hi ar ôl ad-drefnu mawr ac wythnosau cyn agor y maes i gystadleuaeth, i wahanu’r ceffyl oddi wrth y cerbyd—neu a ddylwn ddweud braidd yn ddrygionus—y trên o’r trac.

Consignia can only work if it remains as one company, with one person held responsible for any mistakes. We have seen with Railtrack that division of responsibilities leads to obfuscation and a serious accountability gap.

Dim ond os gwnaiff aros yn un cwmni y gall Consignia weithio, gydag un unigolyn yn atebol am unrhyw gamgymeriadau. Gyda Railtrack, gwelsom fod rhannu cyfrifoldebau yn arwain at gymylu pethau a bwlch atebolrwydd difrifol.

The partnership between the Assembly and the performance and innovation unit’s reforms is already taking shape in my constituency, as the First Minister suggested. It is my understanding that the financing of offices in urban areas—although not yet ring-fenced—has been devolved to the Assembly. Mr Hughes, the landlord of The Fox Inn in one of the five villages in Delyn, has become one of the first landlords to have a post office in his public house. The locals can now use the pub to collect their pensions in a convenient, friendly and safe environment, although one must question the temptations posed by a pocketful of pension money and an alcohol-stacked bar. That may have other, less desirable, side effects.

Eisoes mae’r bartneriaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a diwygiadau’r uned berfformio ac arloesi yn dechrau ffurfio yn fy etholaeth i, fel yr awgrymodd y Prif Weinidog. Fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod ariannu swyddfeydd mewn ardaloedd trefol—er na chlustnodwyd hwy eto—wedi ei ddatganoli i’r Cynulliad. Daeth Mr Hughes, tafarnwr Tafarn y Cadno yn un o’r pum pentref sydd yn Delyn yn un o’r tafarnwyr cyntaf i gael swyddfa bost yn ei dafarn. Gall y bobl leol ddefnyddio’r dafarn yn awr i gasglu eu pensiynau mewn amgylchedd cyfleus, cyfeillgar a diogel, er bod yn rhaid i rywun gwestiynu y temtasiynau a grëir gan lond poced o arian pensiwn a bar yn llawn alcohol. Gallai hynny efallai gael sgîl-effeithiau llai dymunol.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 94

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

What about licking stamps?

Beth am lyfu stampiau?

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 94

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

What about licking stamps? We have fun in those five villages. A new sorting office has also opened at Saltney, on Tom Middlehurst’s patch, and more is to come.

Beth am lyfu stampiau? Cawn hwyl yn y pum pentref hynny. Agorwyd swyddfa ddidoli newydd yn Saltney hefyd, yn ardal Tom Middlehurst, ac mae mwy i ddod.

Modernisation tailored to a local community is at the heart of the performance and innovation unit’s reforms. The pace will be slow or negative if we do not help Consignia. New, innovative and modern reforms, combined with protecting the best elements of the Post Office, are a recipe for success.

Moderneiddio wedi ei deilwra i gymuned leol sydd wrth wraidd diwygiadau’r uned berfformio ac arloesi. Bydd y cyflymder yn araf neu’n negyddol os na chynorthwywn Consignia. Diwygiadau newydd, arloesol a modern, ynghyd â diogelu elfennau gorau Swyddfa’r Post, yw’r ffordd sicr o lwyddo.

I cannot vote for all that Plaid Cymru wants, and I am unhappy about some aspects. However, I agree with Dai Lloyd that moving the sorting of north Wales post to Chester, the increase of contracting out and the threat of increasing stamp prices are worrying. When considering the closure of post offices, we must think about the needs of the elderly and the disabled; they must take a high priority. Even the small step of moving a post office up the road can be deeply troubling for older people. The Assembly must pay close attention to these matters. I cannot vote for Plaid Cymru’s amendments. The Government is on track.

Ni allaf bleidleisio dros bopeth y mae Plaid Cymru am ei gael, ac yr wyf yn anfodlon ar rai agweddau. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf â Dai Lloyd fod symud y gwaith o ddidoli post y Gogledd i Gaer, y cynnydd mewn rhoi gwaith ar gontract a’r bygythiad o godi prisiau stampiau yn peri gofid. Wrth ystyried cau swyddfeydd post, rhaid inni ystyried anghenion yr henoed a’r anabl; rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel iddynt. Gall hyd yn oed y cam bychan o symud swyddfa bost i fyny’r ffordd beri llawer o ofid i bobl hŷn. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad roi sylw agos i’r materion hyn. Ni allaf bleidleisio dros welliannau Plaid Cymru. Mae’r Llywodraeth ar y trywydd iawn.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 94

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 94

Hoffwn ddechrau fel y gwnaeth eraill, drwy longyfarch staff Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu. Iddynt hwy y mae’r diolch bod y ddadl hon yn digwydd heddiw. Deallaf i’r undeb cyfarfod â Rhodri Morgan ym Mai 2000, ac addäwyd iddi y câi dadl flynyddol ar y gwasanaeth post ei chynnal yn y Cynulliad. Cafodd ei chamarwain y diwrnod hwnnw, mae’n debyg. Pan ddaeth mis Ionawr 2002, nid oedd dim wedi digwydd. Daeth yr undeb wedyn at Blaid Cymru, a bu inni fygwth pleidleisio yn erbyn datganiad busnes Andrew Davies oni chaem ddadl ar y gwasanaeth post. Da, felly, fod hyn yn digwydd o’r diwedd. Diolch i’r undeb am amddiffyn lles ei aelodau yn y lle cyntaf a hefyd am amddiffyn lles Cymru a chymunedau Cymru.

I will begin, as have others, by congratulating the Communication Workers Union staff. It is thanks to them that this debate is being held today. I understand that the union had a meeting with Rhodri Morgan in May 2000, and was promised an annual debate in the Assembly on the postal service. It was misled that day, it seems. When January 2002 arrived, nothing had happened. It then came to Plaid Cymru, and we threatened to vote against Andrew Davies’s business statement if a debate on the postal services was not held. It is good, therefore, that this is happening at last. I thank the union for protecting the welfare of its members in the first instance and also for protecting the welfare of Wales and Welsh communities.

Mae’n ymddangos bod Cymru yn cael y fargen waethaf bosibl o’r math o ailstrwythuro sy’n digwydd. Trosglwyddir swyddogaethau y tu allan o Gymru; nid oes un o’r datblygiadau newydd uchel-dechnolegol yn digwydd yng Nghymru; ac nid oes cydnabyddiaeth o Gymru, hyd yn oed fel rhanbarth.

It seems as though Wales is getting the worst possible bargain from the type of restructuring that is taking place. Functions are being transferred outside Wales; not one of the new high-tech developments is taking place in Wales; and there is no acknowledgement of Wales, not even as a region.

Credaf fod Peter Black yn camddeall pwynt gwelliant 3 Plaid Cymru. Nid galw am wasanaeth post cenedlaethol o safbwynt ideolegol yr ydym. Yr ydym yn gwbl bragmataidd ynglŷn â hyn, ond mae angen cydnabod realiti y ffaith bod Cymru yn genedl ac yn rhanbarth. Y polisi presennol yw ein trin fel atodiad amherthnasol, sydd ddim yn cyfrif ond pan fydd yn achwyn, fel rhyw fath o grumbling appendix.

I feel that Peter Black has misunderstood the point of Plaid Cymru’s amendment 3. We are not calling for a national postal service from an ideological perspective. We are entirely pragmatic about this, but the reality of Wales as a nation and a region needs to be acknowledged. The current policy is to treat us as an irrelevant annex, which does not matter unless when we complain, like some kind of grumbling appendix.

Ymosododd Consignia ar yr undeb am fod yn rhy filwriaethus. Byddwn innau’n dadlau bod safbwynt yr undeb wedi bod yn gwbl resymol mewn llawer ffordd. Mae’n derbyn yr angen am newid, ond yn gwrthod y ddogma Blairaidd bod preifat bob amser yn dda a chyhoeddus bob amser yn wael. Mae angen y cyfuniad cywir o’r rheini i gael gwasanaeth derbyniol. Mae’r undeb wedi dweud ei bod yn fodlon cael cytundeb dim-streic, ac mae’r datblygiad diweddaraf ynglŷn â hynny yn dda.

Consignia has attacked the union for being too militant. I would argue that the union’s stance has been entirely reasonable in many ways. It accepts the need for change, but rejects the Blairite dogma that private is always good and public always bad. The correct combination of those is needed in order to provide an acceptable service. The union has said that it is willing to have a no-strike agreement, and the latest development concerning that is good.

Nid yw o gymorth i berthynas ddiwydiannol pan fydd Consignia yn cyhoeddi o flaen Pwyllgor Dethol Tŷ’r Cyffredin y bydd 30,000 yn mynd heb ddweud hynny wrth yr undeb, er iddo gwrdd â Consignia y bore hwnnw cyn y datganiad i’r pwyllgor.

It is not helpful to industrial relations when Consignia announces before a House of Commons Select Committee that 30,000 jobs will be lost, without informing the union, although it had met with Consignia that morning before the announcement to the committee.

Mae Consignia yn gwrthod rhoi gwybod beth yw hyd a lled ei gynlluniau o ran cau swyddfeydd post. Mae’r undeb, ar y llaw arall, yn ymrwymo i gadw’r canolfannau cymunedol allweddol hyn. Safbwynt yr undeb yw bod y Ceidwadwyr wedi methu â chwalu rhwydwaith y swyddfeydd post ac y byddai’n drychineb pe câi hynny ddigwydd o dan Lywodraeth Lafur.

Consignia is unwilling to reveal the full extent of its plans to close post offices. The union, on the other hand, is committed to maintaining these vital community centres. Its view is that the Conservatives failed to dismantle the post office network, and that it would be a disaster if that were allowed to happen under a Labour Government.

Mae’r undeb yn gweld y perygl. Mae ei dadl o blaid ail-integreiddio’r gwasanaethau parseli a llythyrau hefyd yn synnwyr cyffredin. Fel y clywsom, mae Postcomm am wthio cystadleuaeth ym Mhrydain yn gyflymach nag y mae’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn ei fynnu. Gwêl Consignia fod hynny yn beryglus. Cefnogaf Consignia yn hyn, fel y gwna gweddill y Cynulliad, mae’n amlwg. Dyma ddywed Postcomm yn ei ddatganiad:

The union sees the danger. Its argument in favour of reintegrating the parcel and letter services is also common sense. As we have heard, Postcomm wants to push competition through in Britain earlier than the European Union demands. Consignia sees that that is dangerous. I support Consignia in this, as does the rest of the Assembly, it would seem. This is what Postcomm says in its statement:

‘We think that we have the balance right, but if you do not agree, we will listen.’

Gobeithiaf ei fod yn gwrando y prynhawn yma. Mae llygedyn o obaith yno. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed Rhodri Morgan yn dweud ei fod yn credu bod Postcomm yn tueddu i dynnu yn ôl. Cefnogaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Glyn Davies, a gobeithiaf y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn datgan yn glir ei fod yn gwrthwynebu argymhellion Postcomm ac y caiff hynny ei drosglwyddo iddo erbyn dydd Gwener pan ddaw’r ymgynghoriad i ben.

I hope that it is listening this afternoon. There is a glimmer of hope there. I was glad to hear Rhodri Morgan say that he believes that Postcomm seems to be pulling back. I support what Glyn Davies said, and hope that the First Minister will state clearly that he rejects Postcomm’s recommendations and that that will be conveyed to it by Friday when the consultation ends.

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod y Prif Weinidog yn cefnogi ysbryd gwelliannau Plaid Cymru—dyna sydd yn bwysig. Cymeraf, felly, y byddant yn rhan o safbwynt casgliadol y Cynulliad. Mae hynny yn cynnwys gwelliant 3, sydd yn galw am adolygiad annibynnol o sut y caiff Consignia ei redeg. Cymeraf fod ystyr y gwelliant hwnnw yn cael ei gefnogi gan Rhodri Morgan.

I am glad to hear that the First Minister supports the spirit of Plaid Cymru’s amendments—that is what is important. I take it, therefore, that they will be a part of the Assembly’s collective viewpoint. That includes amendment 3, which calls for an independent review of how Consignia is run. I take it that the meaning of that amendment is supported by Rhodri Morgan.

Gwell hwyr na hwyrach—o’r diwedd, yr ydym yn trafod gwasanaeth allweddol. Dylem fod wedi ei drafod ymhell cyn hyn. Mae wedi mynd yn unfed awr ar ddeg, a rhaid cyflwyno tystiolaeth erbyn dydd Gwener. Mae’n dda fod hyn yn digwydd, ond mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dychwelyd at y pwnc hwn, gan fod hwn yn wasanaeth allweddol i ddyfodol Cymru.

Better late than never—at last, we are discussing a key service. We should have discussed it way before now. It is now the eleventh hour, and evidence must be presented by Friday. It is good that this is happening, but it is important that we return to this issue, as this is a key service for the future of Wales.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 96

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I welcome this debate leading up to the consultation. One of the Assembly’s overarching aims is social inclusion. I believe, as do many others, that that is the fundamental reason why we must put public services before profit. Undoubtedly, in many areas—rural and urban—we are seeing the removal of public services. It is extremely important, First Minister, to support all of us here who wish to retain that public service on a universal level, so that there are daily deliveries at a universal price to any location in Wales. It is also important to understand that Postcomm has not recognised that there is a role for Wales to play in running postal services.

Croesawaf y ddadl hon yn y cyfnod cyn ymgynghori. Un o nodau pennaf y Cynulliad yw cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Credaf, fel y gwna llawer un arall, mai dyna’r rheswm sylfaenol pam mae’n rhaid inni roi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus cyn elw. Yn ddiau, mewn llawer o ardaloedd—gwledig a threfol—gwelwn wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu dileu. Mae’n eithriadol o bwysig, Brif Weinidog, i gefnogi pawb yma sy’n dymuno cadw’r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hwnnw ar lefel gyffredinol, er mwyn sicrhau bod dosbarthiadau dyddiol am bris cyffredinol i unrhyw leoliad yng Nghymru. Mae’n bwysig deall hefyd nad yw Postcomm wedi cydnabod bod gan Gymru ran i’w chwarae wrth redeg gwasanaethau post.

I join other Members—Peter Law and Ann Jones in particular—in paying tribute to those people who provide this service, in rural Wales in particular. It is a tremendous service. It is also a tremendous act of community, because for many people the postman or postwoman is their only contact during the day. The postbus is one of the greatest means of community transport. These services are essential and we should fight to retain them all.

Ymunaf ag Aelodau eraill—Peter Law ac Ann Jones yn enwedig—i dalu teyrnged i’r bobl hynny sy’n darparu’r gwasanaeth hwn, yn y Gymru wledig yn arbennig. Mae’n wasanaeth gwych. Mae’n weithred gymunedol wych hefyd, oherwydd i lawer o bobl y dynion neu’r merched post yw eu hunig gyswllt yn ystod y dydd. Y bws post yw un o ddulliau gorau trafnidiaeth gymunedol. Mae’r gwasanaethau hyn yn hanfodol a dylem ymladd i gadw pob un ohonynt.

However, I question some of the logic behind Postcomm’s words, having met it last week and heard the announcement of 30,000 possible job losses. I asked the chair last week what analysis he had undertaken of the losses that the services incurred. He replied, ‘none, I do not know why the losses are so large’. How can such a reply be given by Postcomm, which is offering a reorganisation of our services? I would like clarification of what information we have that gives legitimacy to its proposals when it does not even know its own business and cannot identify the losses within it.

Fodd bynnag, cwestiynaf rywfaint o’r rhesymeg y tu ôl i eiriau Postcomm, ar ôl cyfarfod â hwy yr wythnos diwethaf a chlywed y cyhoeddiad am 30,000 o swyddi a allai gael eu colli. Gofynnais i’r cadeirydd yr wythnos diwethaf pa ddadansoddiad a wnaeth o’r colledion a gafwyd gan y gwasanaethau. Atebodd, ‘dim, ni wn pam mae’r colledion mor fawr’. Sut y gall ateb o’r fath gael ei roi gan Postcomm, sy’n cynnig ad-drefnu ein gwasanaethau? Hoffwn gael eglurhad o ba wybodaeth sydd gennym sy’n cyfiawnhau ei gynigion, pan na ŵyr hyd yn oed ei fusnes ei hun ac ni all nodi’r colledion ynddo.

You stated, First Minister, that the review said that it all went wrong somewhere for the postal service. It still does not know where it went wrong, yet we have much to lose if we go along with these proposals. I urge you to represent us in this consultation and pay particular attention to Plaid’s amendment 2, which, for me, embodies what we all wish to achieve in Wales.

Nodwyd gennych, Brif Weinidog, fod yr adolygiad yn dweud i bopeth fynd o’i le yn rhywle i’r gwasanaeth post. Ni ŵyr o hyd beth aeth o’i le ac eto mae gennym lawer i’w golli os derbyniwn y cynigion hyn. Fe’ch anogaf i’n cynrychioli yn yr ymgynghoriad hwn a rhoi sylw penodol i welliant 2 Plaid, sydd, i mi, yn ymgorffori’r hyn y dymuna pob un ohonom ei gyflawni yng Nghymru.

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 98

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

This has been an excellent debate and there has been unanimity about the postal services we want in Wales. The post office is a vital cornerstone of urban and rural communities and we are committed to ensuring that it remains so. Post offices in remote rural areas allow people to purchase items and mean that they are not as excluded from society, and have somewhere to go. In some areas, the post office is an essential meeting point. Post offices are disappearing from urban communities, which has had an impact on the elderly in terms of the delivery of services.

Bu hon yn ddadl ragorol a bu unfrydedd ynglŷn â’r gwasanaethau post y dymunwn eu cael yng Nghymru. Mae’r swyddfa bost yn gonglfaen hollbwysig mewn cymunedau trefol a gwledig ac yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau ei bod yn parhau felly. Mae swyddfeydd post mewn ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell yn caniatáu i bobl brynu eitemau a golygant na chânt eu hallgáu cymaint o gymdeithas a bod ganddynt rywle i fynd. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, mae’r swyddfa bost yn fan cyfarfod hanfodol. Mae swyddfeydd post yn diflannu o gymunedau trefol, a chafodd hyn effaith ar yr henoed o ran cyflwyno gwasanaethau.

We are all fully committed to the concept of the Royal Mail, as Peter Law said. We all agree—Nick mentioned this—that it should not cost more to post a letter from the islands of Scotland to Wales than from elsewhere. There are issues related to cherry-picking arising from the current proposals. It is essential that we recognise the contribution the postal workers make. Members have said today that sometimes the only person that someone sees in a whole week is the postal worker who is delivering mail. That contact is an important public service.

Yr ydym oll yn llwyr ymrwymedig i gysyniad y Post Brenhinol, fel y dywedodd Peter Law. Cytuna pob un ohonom—soniodd Nick am hyn—na ddylai gostio mwy i bostio llythyr o ynysoedd yr Alban i Gymru nag o fan arall. Mae materion sy’n ymwneud â dewis y rhannau gorau yn codi o’r cynigion presennol. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn cydnabod y cyfraniad a wna gweithwyr post. Mae Aelodau heddiw wedi dweud mai’r unig berson a welir gan ambell un mewn wythnos gron yw’r gweithiwr post sy’n dosbarthu post. Mae’r cyswllt hwnnw yn wasanaeth cyhoeddus pwysig.

There are also wider issues about the mail sorting facilities and quality of jobs in Wales, which is important to us in terms of the development of the Welsh economy. You can have guarantees about Welsh-speaking staff going hither and yonder. However, the reality is that once staff are lost to Wales, they are lost. These issues must concern us all in this Chamber.

Mae materion ehangach hefyd o ran cyfleusterau didoli post ac ansawdd swyddi yng Nghymru, sy’n bwysig i ni o ran datblygu economi Cymru. Gallwch gael sicrwydd am staff sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn mynd yma a thraw. Fodd bynnag, y realiti yw, unwaith y collir staff i Gymru, fe’u collir. Rhaid i’r materion hyn fod yn bwysig i bob un ohonom yn y Siambr hon.

Nick also talked about extending the consultation period. I do not know whether that would be possible, but I will discuss it with the First Minister to ensure that we get the broadest response possible to these proposals from across Wales. I listened with interest to the postcode issue raised because the press has also picked it up on that. It may seem a small issue, but it is a big issue for those affected by it. The issue of cherry-picking is clearly a concern for Nick and others. I agree with Nick on his point about the ideology behind Plaid’s amendment 3. Their amendments were supportive on the whole, but the notion of a Welsh postal service is ideology gone mad. We want a united approach across all the parties in the Assembly on what we require from the Royal Mail and the postal service.

Soniodd Nick hefyd am ymestyn y cyfnod ymgynghori. Ni wn a fyddai hynny’n bosibl, ond fe’i trafodaf â’r Prif Weinidog i sicrhau y cawn yr ymateb ehangaf posibl i’r cynigion hyn ledled Cymru. Gwrandewais gyda diddordeb ar y mater o godau post a godwyd oherwydd yr oedd y wasg wedi canolbwyntio ar hynny hefyd. Efallai ei fod yn ymddangos yn fater dibwys, ond mae’n fater mawr i’r rheini y mae’n effeithio arnynt. Mae dewis a dethol y gwasanaethau gorau yn fater sy’n amlwg yn peri pryder i Nick ac eraill. Cytunaf â Nick ar ei bwynt ynglŷn â’r ideoleg y tu ôl i welliant 3 Plaid. Bu eu gwelliannau yn gefnogol ar y cyfan, ond ideoleg wedi mynd yn rhemp yw’r syniad o gael gwasanaeth post i Gymru. Yr ydym am gael ymagwedd unedig ar draws pob plaid yn y Cynulliad tuag at yr hyn yr ydym am ei gael gan y Post Brenhinol a’r gwasanaeth post.

Peter Law spoke about the postbus. He also suggested that the Assembly could have a regulatory role. That is an interesting suggestion, which we need to explore. On changes, we must make it clear that some of the postal service’s problems are caused by management and its lack of understanding of how to negotiate change. That is a real issue. I speak as someone from the banking industry, which witnessed wholesale changes to jobs and conditions of service. In the main, those changes were negotiated through. It must be recognised that negotiation is important in an industry that is developing and changing. When you feel under threat, as postal workers undoubtedly do, you are bound to lash out and ask what can be done about it. We all understand that feeling.

Soniodd Peter Law am y bws post. Awgrymodd hefyd y gallai’r Cynulliad gael rôl reoliadol. Mae hynny’n awgrym diddorol, y mae angen inni ymchwilio iddo. O ran newidiadau, rhaid inni egluro yr achosir rhai o broblemau’r gwasanaeth post gan reolwyr a’u diffyg dealltwriaeth o sut i negodi newid. Mae hynny’n broblem wirioneddol. Siaradaf fel rhywun o’r diwydiant bancio, a welodd newidiadau mawr iawn i swyddi ac amodau gwasanaeth. Ar y cyfan, cyflawnwyd y newidiadau hynny drwy negodi. Rhaid cydnabod bod negodi yn bwysig mewn diwydiant sy’n datblygu a newid. Pan deimlwch o dan fygythiad, fel y gwna gweithwyr post yn ddiau, yr ydych yn sicr o ymateb yn fyrbwyll a gofyn beth y gellir ei wneud am y peth. Dealla pob un ohonom y teimlad hwnnw.

When discussing new proposals for the postal service, it is also important that we consider a secure future. I am sure that we would all agree with Alun Pugh’s point on the sub-post offices. Ann Jones, Brian Hancock, Alun Pugh, Glyn Davies, Alison Halford, Cynog Dafis, Mick Bates and others stressed the importance of the service. We all agree on that. I could tell you that there is no provision in the Postal Service Act 2000 for wholesale disposal. That is true. I could also tell you that the company says that there will be no compulsory redundancies. However, it is possible not to have compulsory redundancies and still to change the terms and conditions of employment, which affects the lower paid who do those jobs. There is room for further discussion on that matter.

Wrth drafod cynigion newydd ar gyfer y gwasanaeth post, mae’n bwysig inni hefyd ystyried dyfodol sicr. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pob un ohonom yn cytuno â phwynt Alun Pugh ynglŷn â’r is-swyddfeydd post. Pwysleisiodd Ann Jones, Brian Hancock, Alun Pugh, Glyn Davies, Alison Halford, Cynog Dafis, Mick Bates ac eraill bwysigrwydd y gwasanaeth. Cytuna pob un ohonom ar hynny. Gallwn ddweud wrthych nad oes darpariaeth yn Neddf Gwasanaeth Post 2000 ar gyfer gwaredu ar raddfa eang. Mae hynny’n wir. Gallwn ddweud wrthych hefyd na fydd unrhyw ddiswyddiadau gorfodol yn ôl y cwmni. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bosibl peidio â chael diswyddiadau gorfodol ac eto newid telerau ac amodau cyflogaeth, sy’n effeithio ar y gweithwyr ar gyflogau is sy’n cyflawni’r swyddi hynny. Mae lle i drafod ymhellach ar y mater hwnnw.

It is important to recognise that we are committed to the postal service in Wales. We are committed to post offices, which are essential to the social inclusion agenda. I would urge Members to support the motion and the Welsh Conservatives amendment 4, but not to support Plaid Cymru’s amendments. Some of them represent the spirit of the Government’s stance on this issue, but they do not enhance the motion.

Mae’n bwysig cydnabod ein bod yn ymrwymedig i’r gwasanaeth post yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i swyddfeydd post, sy’n hanfodol i’r agenda cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Anogaf yr Aelodau i gefnogi’r cynnig a gwelliant 4 Ceidwadwyr Cymru, ond i beidio â chefnogi gwelliannau Plaid Cymru. Mae rhai ohonynt yn cynrychioli ysbryd safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar y mater hwn, ond nid ydynt yn gwella’r cynnig.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 100

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 100

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 2 David Lloyd t. 100

Amendment 2 David Lloyd p. 100

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 25 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 24

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (25)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (24)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 3 David Lloyd t. 101

Amendment 3 David Lloyd p. 101

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 12 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 37

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (12)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (37)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 4 Nick Bourne t. 101

Amendment 4 Nick Bourne p. 101

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 37 YmatalAbstain 12 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (37)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (12)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Peter Law spoken in English p. 104

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

Point of order. Does the vote on amendment 2 mean that the Liberal Democrats have deserted the coalition Government? Do you think that the coalition has come to an end now and we can say goodbye to the Liberal Democrats? We do not need them anymore.

Pwynt o drefn. A yw’r bleidlais ar welliant 2 yn golygu bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cefnu ar y Llywodraeth glymblaid? A gredwch fod y glymblaid wedi dod i ben yn awr ac y gallwn ffarwelio â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol? Nid oes arnom eu hangen bellach.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 104

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

That is not a matter for me; perhaps it should be discussed in the tea room after Plenary.

Nid yw hwn yn fater i mi; efallai y dylid ei drafod yn yr ystafell de ar ôl y Cyfarfod Llawn.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 104

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

Point of order. I believe that I should have been allowed to do this before the vote, and during the course of the debate, because it is relevant. However, I did e-mail you and I abide by your ruling that I should wait until after the votes. I declare an interest as my husband is a retired postman and is in receipt of a Post Office pension.

Pwynt o drefn. Credaf y dylwn fod wedi cael caniatâd i wneud hyn cyn y bleidlais, ac yn ystod y ddadl, oherwydd ei bod yn berthnasol. Fodd bynnag, anfonais e-bost atoch a chadwaf at eich dyfarniad y dylwn aros tan ar ôl y pleidleisiau. Datganaf fuddiant gan fod fy ngŵr yn bostmon wedi ymddeol ac yn cael pensiwn gan Swyddfa’r Post.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 104

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.29 p.m.

The session ended at 5.29 p.m.