Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 11 Gorffennaf 2000

Tuesday 11 July 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:33

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
    1. 3Mesurau Llywodraeth y DU sydd yn Effeithio ar Gymru (CynulliadCenedlaethol) UK Government Bills that Affect Wales (National Assembly)
    2. 5Adolygiad Cynhwysfawr o Wariant (Diwallu Anghenion Cymru)Comprehensive Spending Review (Meeting Wales’s Needs)
    3. 8Penodi Gweinidogion Cynulliad GwyrddAppointing Assembly Green Ministers
    4. 10Cysylltiadau gyda Sefydliadau’r Undeb EwropeaiddLinks with European Union Institutions
    5. 12Ffiniau Awdurdodau Lleol (Gogledd Cymru)Local Authority Boundaries (North Wales)
    6. 15Targedau Ansawdd Bywyd ‘Gwellcymru.com’‘Betterwales.com’ Quality of Life Targets
  2. 18Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  3. 18Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  4. 20Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  5. 21Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion DrafftComposite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  6. 23Fformwla Asesiad Gwariant Safonol Llywodraeth LeolLocal Government Standard Spending Assessment Formula 7 o bleidleisiau7 votes
  7. 78Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  8. 78Cynllun Partneriaeth Llywodraeth LeolThe Local Government Partnership Scheme 5 o bleidleisiau5 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion5100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion DrafftComposite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders
Cynnig cyfansawddComposite motion5100DerbyniwydAdopted
Fformwla Asesiad Gwariant Safonol Llywodraeth LeolLocal Government Standard Spending Assessment Formula
Gwelliant 1Amendment 127026DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 2Amendment 227026DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 3Amendment 35300DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 4Amendment 427026DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 5Amendment 527026DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 6Amendment 6121526GwrthodwydRejected
CynnigMotion20132GwrthodwydRejected
Cynllun Partneriaeth Llywodraeth LeolThe Local Government Partnership Scheme
Gwelliant 1Amendment 119030GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 24900DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 3Amendment 34800DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 4Amendment 411038GwrthodwydRejected
CynnigMotion4900DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Dirprwy Lywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd

Questions to the First Secretary

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 3

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I withdraw question 1 in my name.

Tynnaf yn ôl gwestiwn 1 yn fy enw.

Mesurau Llywodraeth y DU sydd yn Effeithio ar Gymru (Cynulliad

Cenedlaethol) UK Government Bills that Affect Wales (National Assembly)

Q2 Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 3

C2 Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that the views of the National Assembly be better represented in published UK Government Bills that affect Wales? (OAQ6342)

Pa drafodaethau a gafodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i sicrhau bod barn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael ei chynrychioli’n well ym Mesurau Llywodraeth y DU a gyhoeddir, ac sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru? (OAQ6342)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

My colleagues and I have frequent discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales and other UK Ministers about the terms of primary legislation affecting Wales. All relevant Government Bills should give the Assembly sufficient powers to develop policies that meet our needs. As Ieuan will remember, our views on the Local Government Bill were expressed robustly. However, as any devolved administration will know, you win some arguments and you lose others.

Caiff fy nghyd-Aelodau a mi drafodaethau mynych gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Gweinidogion eraill y DU ynghylch termau deddfwriaeth sylfaenol sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru. Dylai holl Fesurau perthnasol y Llywodraeth roi pwerau digonol i’r Cynulliad i ddatblygu polisïau sydd yn ateb ein hanghenion. Fel y cofia Ieuan, mynegwyd ein barn ar y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol yn gryf. Fodd bynnag, fel y gŵyr unrhyw weinyddiaeth ddatganoledig, enillir rhai dadleuon a chollir rhai eraill.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 3

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

You mentioned the Local Government Bill, but the Transport Bill is another example where the National Assembly’s policy proposals, endorsed by the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, were not incorporated in UK legislation. Do you agree that we need to reconsider our procedures, for example, concordats and agreements between the Assembly and relevant Westminster departments, to ensure that an expressed wish in this Assembly for proposals to be included in UK legislation is considered seriously and implemented?

Soniasoch am y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol, ond mae’r Mesur Trafnidiaeth yn enghraifft arall lle na chafodd cynigion polisi’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, wedi’u hategu gan y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, eu hymgorffori yn neddfwriaeth y DU. A ydych yn cytuno bod angen inni ailystyried ein gweithdrefnau, er enghraifft, concordats a chytundebau rhwng y Cynulliad ac adrannau perthnasol yn San Steffan, er mwyn sicrhau y rhoddir ystyriaeth ddifrifol i ddymuniad a fynegir yn y Cynulliad hwn am i gynigion gael eu cynnwys yn neddfwriaeth y DU, ac y gweithredir ar hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I am always prepared to consider ways in which Assembly procedure can strengthen our arm in negotiations with Westminster. However, I do not want to give the impression that we have invariably failed to get our way in negotiations with Westminster departments. We managed to attach amendments to the Care Standards Bill, which will permit the appointment of a Children’s Commissioner for Wales subject to the Bill proceeding onto the statute book over the next months. Furthermore, the Learning and Skills Bill, which was written for England and Wales, was based on Welsh proposals that emerged from the Assembly and were adopted by England. We cannot do anything about that. That Bill is not as different as you might expect in terms of Welsh and English provision because England thought that our ideas were good and adopted them. The Learning and Skills Bill is Welsh-based, primary legislation for England and Wales of huge constitutional significance. If we have a good idea, we do not mind if others borrow it.

Yr wyf bob amser yn barod i ystyried ffyrdd y gall gweithdrefn y Cynulliad gryfhau’n braich wrth negodi â San Steffan. Fodd bynnag, nid oes arnaf eisiau rhoi’r argraff ein bod wedi methu bob tro â chael ein ffordd wrth negodi ag adrannau San Steffan. Llwyddasom i atodi gwelliannau wrth y Mesur Safonau Gofal, a fydd yn caniatáu penodi Comisiynydd Plant i Gymru yn amodol ar i’r Mesur fynd ymlaen i’r llyfr statud dros y misoedd nesaf. Yn fwy na hynny, yr oedd y Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau, a ysgrifennwyd i Gymru a Lloegr, yn seiliedig ar gynigion Cymreig a ddeilliodd o’r Cynulliad ac a fabwysiadwyd gan Loegr. Ni allwn wneud dim ynglŷn â hynny. Nid yw’r Mesur mor wahanol ag y gallech ddisgwyl yn nhermau darpariaeth Cymru a Lloegr, oherwydd barnodd Lloegr fod ein syniadau’n rhai da a phenderfynodd eu mabwysiadu. Deddfwriaeth sylfaenol o dras Gymreig ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr yw’r Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau, ac iddo arwyddocâd cyfansoddiadol enfawr. Os oes gennym syniad da, nid oes ots gennym fod eraill yn ei fenthyg.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 4

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I know that you share my view about not wanting to become involved in the debate about primary powers for the Assembly, because it is divisive. However, do you share my view—and I want to hear you say this publicly—that if an issue is not divisive, in terms of the United Kingdom and the consistency of all parts of it, the Assembly should seek to gain as much ability as possible to deal with secondary legislation?

Gwn eich bod yn rhannu fy marn nad oes eisiau mynd i ddadl ynghylch hawliau deddfu sylfaenol i’r Cynulliad, am fod hynny’n creu rhaniadau. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn rhannu fy marn—a hoffwn eich clywed yn dweud hyn yn gyhoeddus—os nad yw mater yn creu rhaniadau, yn nhermau’r Deyrnas Unedig a chysondeb pob rhan ohoni, y dylai’r Cynulliad geisio sicrhau cymaint o allu ag sydd yn bosibl i ddelio â deddfwriaeth eilaidd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Yes, of course. I always said that organic devolution—as I have always promoted devolution—should emerge naturally from our settlement. As people develop a greater degree of trust in our capabilities, the development of our powers will gradually increase. I am not so concerned about this idea that, within 13 months of the transfer of powers, we should say that our powers are inadequate and we cannot make the devolution settlement work. I would rather say that we can make the devolution settlement work. Let us put it to the test. Let us see whether or not it is possible for us to have Bills, for which we have asked, included in the Queen’s Speech, next year and the year after. That is how to test the devolution settlement, to try to make it work as best as possible in the interests of Wales.

Ydwyf, wrth gwrs. Yr wyf wedi dweud erioed y dylai datganoli organig—sef y datganoli yr wyf fi bob amser wedi’i hyrwyddo—darddu’n naturiol o’n cytundeb. Wrth i bobl ddatblygu mwy o ymddiriedaeth yn ein galluoedd, yn raddol datblygir ein pwerau. Nid wyf mor frwd dros y syniad hwn y dylem, o fewn 13 mis i’r trosglwyddo pwerau ddweud bod ein grymoedd yn annigonol ac na allwn wneud i’r cytundeb datganoli weithio. Byddai’n well gennyf ddweud y gallwn wneud i’r cytundeb datganoli weithio. Gadewch inni ei roi ar brawf. Gadewch inni weld a ydyw’n bosibl ai peidio inni gael cynnwys Mesurau, yr ydym ni wedi gofyn amdanynt, yn Araith y Frenhines, y flwyddyn nesaf a’r flwyddyn ar ôl hynny. Dyna sut i roi prawf ar y cytundeb datganoli, i geisio gwneud iddo weithio gystal ag sydd yn bosibl er budd Cymru.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 5

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

When considering our relationship and influence with central Government at Westminster, did this Assembly make a formal response to the National Strategy for Neighbourhood Renewal framework document which was issued for consultation by the Social Exclusion Unit earlier this year?

Wrth ystyried ein perthynas a’n dylanwad gyda’r Llywodraeth ganolog yn San Steffan, a wnaeth y Cynulliad hwn ymateb ffurfiol i ddogfen fframwaith y Strategaeth Genedlaethol dros Adnewyddu Cymdogaeth a gyhoeddwyd er mwyn ymgynghoriad gan yr Uned Allgáu Cymdeithasol yn gynharach eleni?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I am not familiar with the details of that particular document. I will write to the Member for Cynon Valley on that issue.

Nid wyf yn gyfarwydd â manylion y ddogfen arbennig honno. Ysgrifennaf at yr Aelod dros Gwm Cynon ar y mater hwnnw.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 5

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

You spoke briefly about requesting Bills and Parliamentary time. The amendment to the Care Standards Bill on creating a children’s commissioner is welcome. However, what discussions have you had with the Secretary of State and what reassurance can you give us that we will secure legislative time to give the children’s commissioner for Wales the full powers that this Assembly wishes it to have?

Siaradasoch yn fyr ar ofyn am Fesurau ac amser Seneddol. Croesewir y gwelliant i’r Mesur Safonau Gofal ar greu comisiynydd plant. Fodd bynnag, pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a pha sicrwydd allwch chi ei roi inni y sicrhawn amser deddfu er mwyn rhoi i’r comisiynydd plant yng Nghymru y pwerau llawn y mae’r Cynulliad yn dymuno iddo’u cael?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

We have made it clear via Paul Murphy to the UK Cabinet that this is our number one priority for insertion in the next Queen’s Speech. We, like any other UK Government department, are unable to tell what will be in the Queen’s Speech. If you were the Home Secretary, you would not know what would be in the next Queen’s Speech, until she gets up and delivers it. However, we have made it clear that our first priority is exactly that, namely the extension of powers for the children’s commissioner, to give the role a broad ranging, almost Scandinavian type of Ombudsman remit.

Yr ydym wedi datgan yn glir drwy Paul Murphy i Gabinet y DU mai hon yw ein blaenoriaeth uchaf un i’w chynnwys yn Araith nesaf y Frenhines. Fel unrhyw adran arall o Lywodraeth y DU, ni allwn ddweud beth fydd yn Araith y Frenhines. Pe baech chi’n Ysgrifennydd Cartref, ni fyddech yn gwybod beth fyddai yn Araith nesaf y Frenhines, hyd nes byddai hi’n codi ac yn ei thraddodi. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi datgan yn glir mai dyna’n wir yw ein blaenoriaeth uchaf, sef ehangu grym y comisiynydd plant i roi cylch gwaith eang i’r rôl, bron yn debyg i’r Ombwdsmon Sgandinafaidd.

Adolygiad Cynhwysfawr o Wariant (Diwallu Anghenion Cymru)

Comprehensive Spending Review (Meeting Wales’s Needs)

Q3 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 5

C3 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

What discussion has the First Secretary had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding meeting Wales’s needs through the forthcoming comprehensive spending review? (OAQ6352)

Pa drafodaeth a gafodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd gyda Changhellor y Trysorlys ynghylch diwallu anghenion Cymru drwy gyfrwng yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant sydd ar y gweill? (OAQ6352)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I have ongoing discussions about the comprehensive spending review with the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

Caf drafodaethau parhaus ynghylch yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant gyda’r Canghellor a Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 6

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Although we welcome the fact that next week the Chancellor—according to the weekend newspapers—will throw untold billions into public spending across the UK, does the First Secretary share my concern that this money has been accumulated by freezing public spending since 1997? Far from ending the inverse economics, the Chancellor, through the CSR, has merely transferred inverse from our taxes and given us boom-bust in our hospitals and schools?

Er ein bod yn croesawu’r ffaith y bydd y Canghellor yr wythnos nesaf—yn ôl papurau newydd y Sul—yn taflu biliynau dirifedi i mewn i wariant cyhoeddus ar draws y DU, a ydyw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn rhannu fy mhryder fod yr arian hwn wedi ei gronni drwy rewi gwariant cyhoeddus ers 1997? Ymhell o roi terfyn ar yr economeg wrthdro, y cwbl a wnaeth y Canghellor, drwy’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, oedd trosglwyddo’r gwrthdro o’n trethi a rhoi ffyniant-methiant inni yn ein hysbytai a’n hysgolion.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

This war-chest conspiracy theory that Mick has illustrated to the nth degree is a figment of Liberal Democrat imagination. It is absurd to say that there have been no increases in public expenditure during the first three years of the Labour Government. I hope that he is right that we are awash with additional public expenditure for the remaining period of this Parliament, by virtue of the comprehensive spending review. I do not know what is in it. I simply hope, Mick, that you are right about how wonderful the comprehensive spending review will be next week.

Ffrwyth dychymyg y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yw’r ddamcaniaeth cynllwyn cist ryfel y mae Mick wedi’i darlunio i’r nfed radd. Mae’n hurt dweud na fu cynnydd mewn gwariant cyhoeddus yn ystod tair blynedd gyntaf y Llywodraeth Lafur. Gobeithio ei fod yn iawn y bydd gwariant cyhoeddus ychwanegol ar raddfa fawr am weddill cyfnod y Senedd hon, drwy rinwedd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Ni wn i beth sydd ynddo. Dim ond gobeithio, Mick, eich bod yn iawn pan ddywedwch mor wych fydd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yr wythnos nesaf.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 6

Onid yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn derbyn bod maint yr arian sydd yn dod i Gymru drwy’r adolygiad hwn, faint bynnag ydyw, yn gyd-ddigwyddiad llwyr? Mae’n dilyn adolygiad o anghenion yn Lloegr. Wedyn, trosglwyddir yr arian yn fecanyddol i Gymru yn ôl poblogaeth Cymru a Lloegr. A glywodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd sylwadau’r Arglwydd Barnett bythefnos yn ôl, pan ddywedodd fod fformwla Barnett, sydd yn trosglwyddo’r arian hwn, yn fformwla dros dro? Ni fwriadwyd iddi fod yn fformwla gyfnod hir pan y’i sefydlwyd tua 1980. Disgwyliai’r Arglwydd Barnett ei hun weld system ar sail anghenion ac nid fformwla fecanyddol fel hon. Datganodd pe bai gan Gymru system o’r fath, y byddai’n disgwyl inni fod yn well ein byd. A gawn newid i fformwla Barnett?

Does the First Secretary not accept that the amount of money that comes to Wales through this review, however much it is, is a total coincidence? It follows a review of needs in England. The money is then mechanically transferred to Wales according to the population of Wales and England. Did the First Secretary hear Lord Barnett’s comments a fortnight ago, when he said that the Barnett formula, which transfers this money, is a provisional formula? It was not intended to be a long-term formula when it was established in about 1980. Lord Barnett himself expected to see a system that was based on need and not on a mechanical formula like this. He declared that if Wales had such a system, he would expect us to be better off. Will we have a change to the Barnett formula?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 7

Mae’n ddiddorol clywed y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn disgrifio’r arian yr ydym yn mynd i’w gael yr wythnos nesaf fel ‘cynllwyn’. Yn awr y mae Dafydd yn dweud mai cyd-ddigwyddiad yn unig ydyw. Ni welaf pam na all dderbyn bod y penderfyniadau yn mynd i gael eu gwneud yn ôl ein hanghenion, ac yn ôl y fformwla. Efallai y gellid dod â’r ddau i mewn i’r cwestiwn.

It is interesting to hear the Liberal Democrats describing the money that we are going to have next week as ‘a plot’. Now Dafydd says that it is just a coincidence. I do not see why he cannot accept that the decisions are going to be made according to our needs and according to the formula. Perhaps both can be brought into the question.

Felly a ddylem fynd yn awr am adolygiad o fformwla Barnett, a chael gwared arni fel rhan o sefydlu senedd yn yr Alban a chynulliadau yma ac yng Ngogledd Iwerddon? Credaf y derbyniodd pawb—gan gynnwys Dafydd, os cofiaf yn iawn—y fformwla pan basiwyd Mesur Llywodraeth Cymru yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin yn 1997-98. Ni ofynasom ar y pryd am ei hailwampio er mwyn ailystyried yr holl gwestiwn o fformwla fecanyddol neu fathemategol, oherwydd ein bod yn meddwl ei bod yn ormod o newid. Os ydych yn newid y cyfansoddiad, nid ydych eisiau newid y gyfundrefn ariannol ar yr un pryd.

So should we now go for a review of the Barnett formula, and get rid of it as part of the establishment of the parliament in Scotland and the assemblies here and in Northern Ireland? I believe that everybody—including Dafydd, if I remember rightly—accepted the formula when the Government of Wales Bill was passed in the House of Commons in 1997-98. We did not ask at that time to revamp it in order to reconsider the whole question of a mechanical or mathematical formula, because we thought that it would be too much change. If you change the constitution, you do not want to change the financial system at the same time.

Derbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Dafydd yn hollol: pe baem yn dechrau eto, yn ôl yn 1979, ar fformwla ar sail anghenion yn hytrach nag ar fformwla Barnett, byddai Cymru efallai ychydig bach yn well ei byd. Byddai’r Alban ychydig ar ei cholled, oherwydd iddynt gael olew Môr y Gogledd ers sefydlu’r fformwla. Fodd bynnag, ystyriwch faint o ansicrwydd a geid yn ystod y ddwy flynedd y byddai’n eu cymryd i adolygu fformwla Barnett a rhoi rhywbeth yn ei lle. Ni fyddwn innau’n hapus gyda’r fath ansicrwydd wrth gymryd y camau cyntaf ar ôl inni newid cyfansoddiad y wlad hon a sefydlu’r Cynulliad yng Nghymru.

I accept what Dafydd said completely: if we started again, back in 1979, with a formula based on need instead of the Barnett formula, Wales perhaps would be a little better off. Scotland would be a little worse off, because they have had North Sea oil since establishing the formula. However, consider how much uncertainty there would be during the two years it would take to review the Barnett formula and put something in its place. I would not be happy with such uncertainty while taking the first steps after changing this country’s constitution and establishing the Assembly in Wales.

William Graham spoken in English p. 7

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will the First Secretary indicate that the national health service will be his top priority with the comprehensive spending review money, and will he confirm that, if Jane Hutt fails to fulfil her pledge to cut waiting lists by 15,000, he will judge it as a matter of confidence in the Secretary for Health and Social Services?

A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddatgan mai’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a gaiff y flaenoriaeth uchaf ganddo gydag arian yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, ac a wnaiff gadarnhau, os na cheidw Jane Hutt ei haddewid i gwtogi 15,000 oddi ar restrau aros, y bydd yn barnu hynny fel cwestiwn o hyder yn yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

That would be going over the top. Wales’s needs are more comprehensive than that. I would agree that the national health service—including waiting lists—is of huge public concern. However, I would say that education, local government, transport, the environment, agriculture, economic development and making the best of Objectives 1, 2 and 3 are all huge priorities also. That balancing of priorities is the task for a government, rather than selecting one as the only one that needs to be addressed.

Byddai hynny’n mynd dros ben llestri. Mae anghenion Cymru’n fwy cynhwysfawr na hynny. Cytunaf fod y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol—yn cynnwys rhestrau aros—yn peri pryder enfawr i’r cyhoedd. Fodd bynnag, fe ddywedwn i fod addysg, llywodraeth leol, trafnidiaeth, yr amgylchedd, amaethyddiaeth, datblygu economaidd a gwneud y gorau o Amcanion 1, 2 a 3 yn flaenoriaethau anferth hefyd. Y cydbwysedd hwnnw rhwng blaenoriaethau yw’r dasg i lywodraeth, yn hytrach na dewis un fel yr unig un sydd angen sylw.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 8

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

A moment ago, the First Secretary said that the Home Secretary does not know what is in the Queen’s Speech. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer know or, as always, will he be the last to know?

Funud yn ôl, dywedodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd nad yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref yn gwybod beth sydd yn Araith y Frenhines. A ydyw Canghellor y Trysorlys yn gwybod, ynteu ai ef fydd yr olaf i wybod, fel arfer?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I am not sure, I have never been Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am not sure what the relevance of the question is to the Assembly. The point I made was that it is not some sort of insult to the National Assembly for Wales that we do not know whether or not a particular Bill that we have asked for has been included or not, until the Queen’s Speech is made. We cross our fingers and bring pressure to bear, but we do not know until that day. I do not believe that Government departments and their Cabinet members know either, until a Cabinet meeting on that morning, probably.

Nid wyf yn siŵr, ni fûm erioed yn Ganghellor y Trysorlys. Nid wyf yn siŵr beth yw perthnasedd y cwestiwn i’r Cynulliad. Y pwynt a wneuthum oedd nad yw’n rhyw fath o sarhad ar Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru nad ydym yn gwybod a yw Mesur penodol y gofynasom amdano wedi’i gynnwys ai peidio, hyd nes gwneir Araith y Frenhines. Croeswn ein bysedd a cheisiwn roi pwysau, ond ni wyddom tan y diwrnod hwnnw. Ni chredaf fod adrannau’r Llywodraeth a’u haelodau Cabinet yn gwybod chwaith, tan gyfarfod o’r Cabinet ar y bore hwnnw, mae’n debyg.

Penodi Gweinidogion Cynulliad Gwyrdd

Appointing Assembly Green Ministers

C4 David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 8

Q4 David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 8

A fyddai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ystyried penodi gweinidogion Cynulliad gwyrdd? (OAQ6349)

Will the First Secretary consider appointing Assembly green ministers? (OAQ6349)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 8

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 8

Mae gweinidog gwyrdd gennym yn barod, sef Christine Gwyther. Hi sydd yn gyfrifol am bledio achos datblygu cynaliadwy. Mae pob Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad ac aelodau eraill y Cabinet hefyd yn gorfod ystyried mai datblygu cynaliadwy yw un o egwyddorion Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998.

We have a green minister already, Christine Gwyther. She is responsible for championing the cause of sustainable development. Every Assembly Secretary and other members of the Cabinet must also consider that sustainable development is one of the principles of the Government of Wales Act 1998.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 8

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 8

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gallu hyrwyddo a chodi proffil gwyrdd y Cynulliad. Syniad o Lundain yw’r gweinidogion gwyrdd. Byddai ganddynt swyddogaeth arbennig i sicrhau bod cynaliadwyedd ym mhob agwedd o’n gwaith ac, felly, yn gosod y sefydliad hwn yn esiampl o arfer da yn y maes hwn. A yw Rhodri yn cytuno ei bod yn bwysig i’r Cynulliad arwain ar yr agenda gynaliadwy mewn gweithred ac nid trwy eiriau gwag yn unig?

It is important that we are able to promote and raise the Assembly’s green profile. The idea of green ministers comes from London. They would have a special function to ensure that sustainability exists in all aspects of our work and, therefore, that this institution is held up as an example of good practice in this field. Does Rhodri agree that it is important for the Assembly to lead on the sustainable agenda through action and not only through empty words?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 9

Wrth gwrs fy mod yn cytuno. Gweithredoedd, nid geiriau, sydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth o ran pa mor wyrdd y’ch bernir. Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf gyfarfod â rhai o aelodau’r Comisiwn Brenhinol ar Lygredd Amgylcheddol ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Trafodasom sut yr oeddent yn disgwyl inni arwain y ffordd, oherwydd ein bod yn dilyn egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy ym mhopeth a wnawn.

Of course I agree. Actions speak louder than words in terms of how one should be judged on green matters. It was a pleasure for me to meet some of the members of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution last Friday. We discussed how they expected us to lead the way, because we follow sustainable development principles in every aspect of our work.

David Davies spoken in English p. 9

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Does the First Secretary recall that the 1997 Labour manifesto stated that a Labour Assembly would act as a safeguard and improve the environment? Does he regret that the Assembly has failed to take account of John Prescott’s target of 60 per cent of all new developments built on brownfield sites? Was there ever any intention to fulfil this manifesto commitment, or was it yet another example of Labour spin doctors saying one thing to get votes and doing another when they are in office?

A ydyw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cofio bod maniffesto Llafur yn 1997 yn datgan y byddai Cynulliad Llafur yn gweithredu fel mesur diogelu ac yn gwella’r amgylchedd? A ydyw’n edifar ganddo i’r Cynulliad fethu ystyried targed John Prescott o sicrhau yr adeiledir 60 y cant o’r holl ddatblygiadau newydd ar safleoedd tir llwyd? A fu unrhyw fwriad erioed i gyflawni’r ymrwymiad hwn yn y maniffesto, ynteu ai achos arall eto fyth ydoedd o sbinddoctoriaid Llafur yn dweud un peth i ennill pleidleisiau ac yn gwneud fel arall ar ôl cael eu hethol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I am always pleased to hear David’s thoughtful, cool and calm contributions to debates and questions in the Assembly. As far as I am aware, we are following the kinds of housing and planning policies that were laid down in the manifesto regarding giving strong preference to brownfield rather than greenfield development.

Yr wyf bob amser yn falch o glywed cyfraniadau meddylgar, cytbwys a digynnwrf David i ddadleuon a chwestiynau yn y Cynulliad. Hyd y gwn i, yr ydym yn dilyn y mathau o bolisïau tai a chynllunio a amlinellwyd yn y maniffesto ynglŷn â rhoi blaenoriaeth gadarn i ddatblygiad safleoedd tir llwyd yn hytrach na thir gwyrdd.

Christine Humphreys spoken in English p. 9

Christine Humphreys siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

As you have already mentioned, protecting the environment and championing green causes is a central function of the Assembly. That is underlined by our commitment to sustainable development in the Government of Wales Act. Although there is much that the Assembly can do in its own right to protect the environment by pursuing its own green policies, will you undertake to commit your administration to working closely with the European Union on environmental issues in recognition of the international perspective that our approach to environmental protection must take?

Fel y sonioch eisoes, mae gwarchod yr amgylchedd a phledio achosion gwyrdd yn swyddogaeth ganolog gan y Cynulliad. Tanlinellir hynny gan ein hymrwymiad i ddatblygiad cynaliadwy yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru. Er bod yna lawer y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud yn ei rinwedd ei hun i warchod yr amgylchedd drwy weithredu ei bolisïau gwyrdd ei hun, a wnewch chi ymgymryd i ymrwymo’ch gweinyddiaeth i gydweithio’n agos gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar faterion amgylcheddol i gydnabod y safbwynt rhyngwladol y mae’n rhaid inni ei gymryd yn y ffordd yr awn ati i warchod yr amgylchedd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Yes. A huge volume of paper work comes across my desk regarding discussions involving us and Michael Meacher, as the UK lead minister on negotiations with the European Union, on environmental matters. The degree of consultation that is taking place on reducing environmental hazards—the transportation of toxic waste, and so forth—is massive. European legislation is undoubtedly a leader in trying to clean up the environment of the whole of Europe. We want to play our full part in that.

Gwnaf. Daw peth wmbredd o waith papur ar draws fy nesg ynghylch trafodaethau rhyngom ni a Michael Meacher, sef gweinidog arweiniol y DU ar negodiadau gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ar faterion amgylcheddol. Mae’r ymgynghori sydd yn digwydd ar leihau peryglon amgylcheddol—cludo gwastraff gwenwynig, ac yn y blaen—yn helaeth. Yn ddi-os mae deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yn arwain y ffordd o ran ceisio glanhau amgylchedd Ewrop gyfan. Mae arnom ni eisiau chwarae ein rhan lawn yn hynny.

Cysylltiadau gyda Sefydliadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

Links with European Union Institutions

Q5 Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 10

C5 Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Does the First Secretary have any plans to develop further links with European Union institutions? (OAQ6336)

A oes gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd unrhyw gynlluniau i ddatblygu cysylltiadau pellach gyda sefydliadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ6336)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

The Assembly’s new office in Brussels with its complement of two permanent staff will be officially opened by Neil Kinnock, vice-president of the European Commission, and myself on 19 September. Other Assembly party leaders will be invited. That office will be a focus for developing our links with European Union institutions. John Griffiths has been appointed as the Assembly’s full member of the Committee of the Regions, with Elin Jones as the alternate. They will begin their work immediately after the summer constituency weeks.

Caiff swyddfa newydd y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel gyda’i chyflenwad o ddau o staff parhaol ei hagor yn swyddogol gan Neil Kinnock, is-lywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, a mi ar 19 Medi. Gwahoddir arweinwyr pleidiau eraill y Cynulliad. Bydd y swyddfa honno’n ganolbwynt ar gyfer datblygu ein cysylltiadau gyda sefydliadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Penodwyd John Griffiths fel aelod llawn y Cynulliad ar Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau, gydag Elin Jones fel eilydd. Byddant yn dechrau eu gwaith yn syth ar ôl wythnosau’r haf.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 10

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you agree that in order to formalise and consolidate these essential links with the European Union we should provide dedicated office space here in the National Assembly for Wales for those European institutions?

A ydych yn cytuno, er mwyn ffurfioli a chyfnerthu’r cysylltiadau hanfodol hyn gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, y dylem ddarparu lle swyddfa yma yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i’r sefydliadau Ewropeaidd hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I am not sure how much room there is in this building for such bodies to be installed here. I believe that Crickhowell House is under quite a lot of pressure to accommodate the different areas of work that are either here already or are coming here, even after all the national health service staff have departed. They have been rapidly replaced by the earmarking of the vacated office base, either for officials of the Assembly or for officials of former quangos which have now been closed down and have been made part of the direct officialdom of the Assembly. It is probably a job for somebody more directly in touch with accommodation requirements here, which is not me, to answer that question.

Nid wyf yn siŵr faint o le sydd yn yr adeilad hwn i roi lle i gyrff o’r fath yn y fan yma. Credaf fod Tŷ Crucywel dan gryn dipyn o bwysau i gymryd y gwahanol feysydd gwaith sydd naill ai yma’n barod neu’n dod yma, hyd yn oed ar ôl i holl staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ymadael. Cymerwyd eu lle hwy yn gyflym drwy glustnodi’r swyddfeydd gwag naill ai i swyddogion y Cynulliad neu i swyddogion cyn-gwangos a gaewyd bellach ac a wnaethpwyd yn rhan o gorff swyddogol uniongyrchol y Cynulliad. Mae’n debyg mai mater i rywun sydd mewn cysylltiad mwy uniongyrchol â’r gofynion lle yma, ac nid fi, yw ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw.

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

There has been an increasing anxiety regarding the high level of the pound, expressed by the Chief Executive of Nestlé today, and particularly in respect of future inward investment to Wales. Therefore, do you think that now is the time that we should have leadership for that great European institution to promote the euro to the people of Britain? If Tony Blair is not prepared to promote the euro to the people of Britain, are you prepared to promote it to the people of Wales and take that leadership?

Bu pryder cynyddol ynglŷn â lefel uchel y bunt, a fynegwyd gan Brif Weithredwr Nestlé heddiw, ac yn enwedig ynghylch mewnfuddsoddiad i Gymru yn y dyfodol. Felly, a ydych o’r farn mai dyma’r amser y dylem gael arweinyddiaeth dros y sefydliad Ewropeaidd mawr hwnnw i hyrwyddo’r ewro i bobl Prydain? Os nad yw Tony Blair yn fodlon hyrwyddo’r ewro i bobl Prydain, ydych chi’n barod i’w hyrwyddo i bobl Cymru ac ymgymryd â’r arweinyddiaeth honno?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I would not like any adverse comparisons to be made between leadership regarding the euro either by myself, the Prime Minister or by anybody else. There is acute concern throughout Wales about the reduction in inward investment, or reduced export because of the level of the pound in that type of manufacturing industry that is dependent on export at low margins, which is quite badly affected by the high pound. The pound came off the boil about March and is now back to 3.10 deutschmark to the pound instead of 3.46 as it was at its peak. That is not an increase but it was reducing concern on this front. However, I recognise that that concern remains. A declaration that Britain would put this issue to a referendum of the British people just after the next election might help to bring the pound down further.

Ni hoffwn i unrhyw gymariaethau anffafriol gael eu gwneud rhwng yr arweiniad a roddir ar fater yr ewro gennyf fi, y Prif Weinidog na neb arall. Mae pryder mawr ar hyd a lled Cymru am fod mewnfuddsoddi ar i lawr, neu bod allforion ar i lawr oherwydd lefel y bunt yn y math hwnnw o ddiwydiant cynhyrchu nwyddau sydd yn dibynnu ar allforio ar elw isel, rhywbeth yr effeithir arno’n eithaf drwg gan y bunt uchel. Tawelodd y bunt oddeutu mis Mawrth ac mae bellach yn ôl i 3.10 deutschmark i’r bunt yn lle 3.46 fel yr oedd ar ei hanterth. Nid yw hynny’n gynnydd ond fe wnaeth leihau pryder yn ei gylch. Fodd bynnag, sylweddolaf fod y pryder hwnnw’n dal i fodoli. Efallai y gallai cyhoeddiad y byddai Prydain yn rhoi’r cwestiwn hwn i bobl Prydain drwy refferendwm ychydig wedi’r etholiad nesaf yn helpu i ddod â’r bunt i lawr ymhellach.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 11

Byddwn yn gobeithio y byddai’r mwyafrif o bobl yma yn cytuno mai’r sefydliad pwysicaf yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yw Cyngor y Gweinidogion. Ymddengys nad yw hynny’n wir am y Llywodraeth Lafur yn y Cynulliad hwn. Dim ond dau gyfarfod o Gyngor y Gweinidogion y mae Ysgrifenyddion y Llywodraeth hon wedi eu mynychu tra bod Ysgrifenyddion o’r Alban wedi mynychu 18 cyfarfod. Dan arlywyddiaeth Ffrainc o Gyngor y Gweinidogion, a yw Rhodri wedi nodi dyddiadau’r cyfarfodydd y bydd yn disgwyl i Ysgrifenyddion Llafur y Cynulliad hwn fod yn bresennol ynddynt?

I would hope that the majority of people here would agree that the most important institution in the European Union is the Council of Ministers. It appears that that is not true of the Labour Government in this Assembly. Secretaries of this Government have only attended two meetings of the Council of Ministers while Secretaries from Scotland have attended 18 meetings. Under France’s presidency of the Council of Ministers, has Rhodri noted the dates of the meetings that he expects Labour Secretaries of the Assembly to attend?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 12

Yr wyf yn hapus i ailadrodd heddiw yr hyn a ddywedais yn y gorffennol. Un o’m blaenoriaethau yn ystod ail flwyddyn bodolaeth y Cynulliad yw ceisio sicrhau bod gwell cynrychiolaeth o aelodau ein Cabinet ni yng nghyfarfodydd Cyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

I am happy to reiterate today what I have said in the past. One of my priorities during the second year of the Assembly’s existence is to try to ensure that there is a better representation of members of our Cabinet at meetings of the Council of Ministers of the European Union.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 12

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will the two Members of the Assembly that have been appointed to the Committee of the Regions, be responsible to you and your Government, the Committee on European Affairs or the Assembly?

Ai i chi a’ch Llywodraeth, i’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ynteu i’r Cynulliad y bydd y ddau Aelod o’r Cynulliad a benodwyd i Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau yn gyfrifol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

They would undoubtedly have a representative nature for the whole Assembly. There is no doubt about that. One member is Labour and the alternate is Plaid Cymru. However, everybody on a representative body such as that, represents the totality of the body. They will be similar to the local government representatives on the Committee of the Regions who do not represent their individual authorities or their parties. They were nominated by the Welsh Government Local Government Association and represent the whole of local government in Wales.

Heb amheuaeth byddai ganddynt natur gynrychioliadol dros y Cynulliad cyfan. Nid oes dwywaith ynglŷn â hynny. Llafur yw un aelod a Phlaid Cymru yw’r eilydd. Fodd bynnag, mae pawb ar gorff cynrychioliadol fel hwnnw yn cynrychioli’r corff yn ei gyfanrwydd. Byddant yn debyg i gynrychiolwyr llywodraeth leol ar Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau nad ydynt yn cynrychioli’u hawdurdodau unigol na’u pleidiau. Fe’u henwebwyd gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a chynrychiolant y cyfan o lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

Ffiniau Awdurdodau Lleol (Gogledd Cymru)

Local Authority Boundaries (North Wales)

Q6 Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 12

C6 Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Has the First Secretary had any discussions with the Local Government Boundary Commission for Wales regarding local authority boundaries in north Wales? (OAQ6350)

A gafodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd unrhyw drafodaethau gyda Chomisiwn Ffiniau Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ynghylch ffiniau awdurdodau lleol yng ngogledd Cymru? (OAQ6350)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I have not had any discussion because that is a matter for the Secretary for Local Government and Housing, Peter Law.

Ni chefais i unrhyw drafodaeth oherwydd mai mater i’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, Peter Law, yw hwnnw.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 13

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Are you aware of proposals to cut off a part of south Denbighshire and possibly add a bit onto the north? Do you agree that Denbighshire needs some stability to resolve that difficulty and that nobody’s interest would be served by turning into a county on wheels?

A ydych yn ymwybodol o gynigion i dorri rhan o dde Sir Ddinbych i ffwrdd ac o bosibl ychwanegu tamaid ati yn y gogledd? A ydych yn cytuno bod ar Sir Ddinbych angen rhywfaint o sefydlogrwydd i ddatrys ei phroblem ac na fyddai er lles i neb ei throi’n sir ar olwynion?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Everybody saw what happened to Poland after World War II and nobody wants to see the same thing happening to Denbighshire now. I am not familiar with the detail to which he is referring in the north. However, I am familiar with the disputatious issue relating to Llangollen in the south: I presume that is the issue to which he is referring in the south. I recently discussed this matter with Karen Sinclair, while we were both having an enjoyable drink after the recent Any Questions radio programme, while looking down over the glories of the river Dee falls in the middle of Llangollen. However, the issue of how you deal with a community that is being dragged this way and that by two authorities, namely Wrexham County Borough Council and Denbighshire County Council, probably can only be resolved by holding referenda. However, if the results of the referenda are close, it is then difficult to know what is the wise course of action. That is, roughly, the state of play at present, I believe.

Gwelodd pawb beth a ddigwyddodd i Wlad Pwyl ar ôl yr Ail Ryfel Byd ac nid oes ar neb eisiau gweld yr un peth yn digwydd i Sir Ddinbych yn awr. Nid wyf yn gyfarwydd â’r manylyn y mae’n cyfeirio ato yng ngogledd y sir. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn gyfarwydd â’r pwnc llosg ynglŷn â Llangollen yn y de: cymeraf mai hwnnw yw’r mater sydd ganddo dan sylw yn y de. Trafodais y mater hwn yn ddiweddar gyda Karen Sinclair, pan oeddem ein dau yn mwynhau llymaid ar ôl y rhaglen radio Any Questions yn ddiweddar, tra’n edrych i lawr dros ogoniannau rhaeadr afon Dyfrdwy yng nghanol Llangollen. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debyg mai dim ond drwy gynnal refferenda y gellir datrys y cwestiwn o sut i ddelio â chymuned sydd yn cael ei thynnu y naill ffordd a’r llall gan ddau awdurdod, sef Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam a Chyngor Sir Ddinbych. Fodd bynnag, os yw canlyniadau’r refferenda’n agos, mae’n anodd gwybod wedyn beth yw’r peth doethaf i’w wneud. Dyna, yn fras, y sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, yn ôl a gredaf.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 13

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Are you telling us that you have not discussed this issue with Peter Law, and that you are aware of the deep unrest that this is causing in Llangollen? As Alun has said, a county such as Denbighshire needs stability to help it to develop its policies, which will in turn help you to create social inclusion throughout Wales. Those policies are desperately needed in Denbighshire, which has never had stability. Have you and your colleague with responsibility for local government reached a decision? We were given a guarantee that a decision would be made soon after 30 June when the Local Government Boundary Commission for Wales completed its review.

A ydych yn dweud wrthym nad ydych wedi trafod y mater hwn gyda Peter Law, ac a ydych yn ymwybodol o’r anesmwythyd mawr y mae hyn yn ei achosi yn Llangollen? Fel y dywedodd Alun, mae ar sir fel sir Ddinbych angen sefydlogrwydd i’w helpu i ddatblygu ei pholisïau, a fydd yn eu tro yn eich helpu i greu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol drwy Gymru gyfan. Mae dirfawr angen y polisïau hynny yn sir Ddinbych na chafodd sefydlogrwydd erioed. A ydych chi a’ch cyd-Aelod sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros lywodraeth leol wedi dod i benderfyniad? Rhoddwyd sicrwydd inni y gwneid penderfyniad yn fuan ar ôl 30 Mehefin pan fyddai Comisiwn Ffiniau Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi cwblhau ei adolygiad.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I have not discussed this matter with Peter. It so happened that I was in Llangollen and was able to discuss this with Karen a week last Friday. However, it is for Peter to bring forward proposals when he has digested the full contents of the Local Government Boundary Commission for Wales’s review. I am sure that Janet would recognise that, when you have a close referendum result, it is difficult. We have said to the people of Llangollen ‘okay, we want you to tell us whether you want to be in Wrexham or in Denbighshire’ and the result was, I think, a majority of 19. It is not as simple as saying ‘we have a 2:1 majority in favour of one solution, so we know what the people want in Llangollen.’ We do not yet know what they want. That is why we are waiting for Peter to conduct further consultation and consider this issue further before delivering his verdict.

Nid wyf wedi trafod y mater hwn gyda Peter. Yr oeddwn yn digwydd bod yn Llangollen ac felly’n gallu trafod hyn gyda Karen ddydd Gwener cyn ddiwethaf. Fodd bynnag, mater i Peter yw cyflwyno cynigion pan fydd wedi treulio holl gynnwys adolygiad Comisiwn Ffiniau Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Janet yn sylweddoli ei bod yn anodd pan gewch ganlyniad agos i refferendwm. Yr ydym wedi dweud wrth bobl Llangollen ‘iawn, dywedwch chi wrthym ni ai yn Wrecsam ynteu yn sir Ddinbych yr ydych am fod’ a’r canlyniad, yr wyf yn meddwl, oedd mwyafrif o 19. Nid yw mor syml â dweud ‘mae gennym fwyafrif o 2:1 o blaid un ateb, felly gwyddom beth sydd ar y bobl ei eisiau yn Llangollen.’ Nid ydym yn gwybod eto beth sydd arnynt ei eisiau. Dyna pam yr ydym yn aros i Peter ymgynghori ymhellach ac ystyried y mater hwn ymhellach cyn rhoi ei ddyfarniad.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 14

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I must be lucky to be sitting in this Assembly today, if you are saying that you would not take notice of a close result in a referendum. As you know, a referendum was held in Llangollen, the result of which supported remaining in Denbighshire. What justification do we in the Assembly have to interfere with the wishes of those people?

Mae’n rhaid fy mod yn ffodus i fod yn eistedd yn y Cynulliad hwn heddiw, os ydych yn dweud na fyddech yn cymryd sylw o ganlyniad agos mewn refferendwm. Fel y gwyddoch, cynhaliwyd refferendwm yn Llangollen, a’r canlyniad o blaid aros yn sir Ddinbych. Pa gyfiawnhad sydd gennym ni yn y Cynulliad dros ymyrryd â dymuniadau’r bobl hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I do not know how often I have to say this. Where the result is very close, it makes our decision difficult. We have to make a judgment of Solomon. The referendum has given us evidence of a difficult divide in the community of Llangollen. In the end, it probably has the responsibility to decide in which authority it would prefer to be in the long term. However, the decision is made far more difficult where there is evidence that opinion is closely divided. We will keep the Assembly, the people of Llangollen and the borough of Wrexham closely informed once that decision is made.

Ni wn pa mor aml y mae’n rhaid imi ddweud hyn. Lle mae’r canlyniad yn agos iawn, mae’n gwneud ein penderfyniad yn anodd. Rhaid inni arfer barn Solomon. Mae’r refferendwm wedi rhoi tystiolaeth inni o raniad anodd yng nghymuned Llangollen. Yn y pen draw, mae’n debyg mai’r gymuned honno biau’r cyfrifoldeb am benderfynu pa awdurdod yr hoffai berthyn iddo yn y tymor hir. Fodd bynnag, gwneir y penderfyniad yn llawer anoddach lle ceir tystiolaeth fod y farn wedi’i rhannu’n agos. Fe sicrhawn fod y Cynulliad, pobl Llangollen a bwrdeistref Wrecsam yn cael gwybod yn syth pan fydd y penderfyniad hwnnw wedi’i wneud.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 14

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

To a degree, this has been fully explored by the questions that have already been asked. However, does Rhodri agree that Alun’s question was pre-emptive, on the grounds that Peter has not made a decision as yet and therefore no one will have contacted the Local Government Boundary Commission for Wales as to whether or not it will become involved?

I raddau, ymchwiliwyd i hyn yn llawn gan y cwestiynau a ofynnwyd eisioes. Fodd bynnag, a ydyw Rhodri’n cytuno bod cwestiwn Alun yn rhy gynnar, gan nad yw Peter wedi gwneud penderfyniad eto ac felly na fydd neb wedi cysylltu â Chomisiwn Ffiniau Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ynghylch a ddylai ymwneud â hyn ai peidio?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

That is right. I understand the strong feelings in Denbighshire on this matter. The authority is worried about its population being reduced and the possible impact that that might have on rateable value and so on. I appreciate that. However, I am sure that Alun would appreciate that the Denbighshire political structures of all parties, and the officers, would also appreciate that when the community appears to be as divided as this, with such a narrow majority in the referendum, this is a difficult decision

Mae hynny’n gywir. Deallaf y teimladau cryf yn sir Ddinbych ar y mater hwn. Mae’r awdurdod yn poeni ynghylch lleihau ei boblogaeth a’r effaith y gallai hynny ei chael ar y gwerth trethiannol ac yn y blaen. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Alun yn sylweddoli y byddai strwythurau gwleidyddol pob plaid yn sir Ddinbych, a’r swyddogion, hwythau’n sylweddoli pan ymddengys fod y gymuned mor rhanedig â hyn, gyda mwyafrif mor fach yn y refferendwm, fod hwn yn benderfyniad anodd.

Targedau Ansawdd Bywyd ‘Gwellcymru.com’

‘Betterwales.com’ Quality of Life Targets

Q7 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 15

C7 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

How will the First Secretary pursue ‘Betterwales.com’ quality of life targets to ensure equal access to basic services and facilities in all areas of Wales? (OAQ6348)

Sut mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn bwriadu mynd ar drywydd targedau ansawdd bywyd ‘Gwellcymru.com’ er mwyn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau a chyfleusterau sylfaenol ar gael i bawb ym mhob rhan o Gymru? (OAQ6348)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

We cannot guarantee equal access to basic services and facilities for everyone in all areas of Wales as we do not have control over all of them. However, you are right to point to pages 32 and 33 of ‘Betterwales.com’, which set out the key actions that the Assembly plans to take between now and 2003 to improve the quality of life of the people of Wales by tackling social disadvantage and through the promotion of equality of opportunity and sustainable development to ensure that our policies and programmes do not disadvantage any parts or sectors of Wales.

Ni allwn warantu bod gwasanaethau a chyfleusterau sylfaenol ar gael i bawb ym mhob rhan o Gymru gan nad oes gennym reolaeth dros bob un ohonynt. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn iawn i bwyntio at dudalennau 32 a 33 yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’, sydd yn amlinellu’r camau allweddol y bwriada’r Cynulliad eu cymryd o hyn tan 2003 i wella ansawdd bywyd pobl Cymru drwy fynd i’r afael ag anfantais gymdeithasol a thrwy hyrwyddo cyfle cyfartal a datblygiad cynaliadwy er mwyn sicrhau nad yw ein polisïau a’n rhaglenni’n rhoi unrhyw ran na sector o Gymru dan anfantais.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 15

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Is the First Secretary aware that on 19 July the Central Fire Brigades’ Advisory Council for England and Wales—on which, I believe, there are no Welsh representatives—will meet to discuss the future of fire service control and communications in England and Wales? The recommendations in the report that it will consider are that control rooms of the three current Welsh fire brigades, the North Wales Fire Authority, the Mid and West Wales Fire Authority and the South Wales Fire Authority, will be merged to create a single fire control room. What is your response to plans for a single fire control room to cover the whole of Wales? Do you believe that this proposal will persuade the people of Wales that equal access to emergency services is a priority for the Government of Wales? How will you deliver this as part of the Better Wales target to deliver better value for money and better, more efficient services?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ymwybodol y bydd Cyngor Cynghori Canolog Brigadau Tân Cymru a Lloegr—corff nad yw’n cynnwys, fe gredaf, unrhyw gynrychiolwyr o Gymru—yn cyfarfod i drafod dyfodol rheolaeth a chyfathrebu’r gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru a Lloegr? Yr argymhellion yn yr adroddiad a ystyrir ganddo yw y dylid uno ystafelloedd rheoli’r tair brigâd dân bresennol yng Nghymru, sef Awdurdod Tân Gogledd Cymru, Awdurdod Tân y Canolbarth a’r Gorllewin ac Awdurdod Tân De Cymru, i greu un ystafell reoli tân. Beth yw eich ymateb i gynlluniau i gael un ystafell reoli tân dros Gymru gyfan? A gredwch y bydd y cynnig hwn yn darbwyllo pobl Cymru fod gwasanaethau argyfwng i bawb yng Nghymru yn flaenoriaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru? Sut y gwnewch chi gyflawni hyn fel rhan o darged Gwell Cymru i sicrhau gwell gwerth am arian a gwasanaethau gwell, mwy effeithlon?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

You are right to point out that this is not an Assembly responsibility but that it is an Assembly priority. It is mainly a Home Office matter and it has asked us about it. We have made it clear that we do not agree with the proposal to reduce the number of fire service headquarters from three to one, especially so soon after the total was reduced from eight to three. We believe that the best way forward is to retain three and give them an opportunity to work. Regardless of where you put the single control room—if that is what will happen in the end—the problem of ensuring sufficient familiarity with Welsh-origin and English-origin place names in Wales has not been taken into account. Place names recur in different parts of Wales, so it would have to be ensured that fire engines were sent to the right place. We are concerned that you would not get as good a service if we reduced the number of control rooms to just one.

Yr ydych yn iawn pan nodwch nad cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad yw hyn ond ei fod yn flaenoriaeth gan y Cynulliad. Mater i’r Swyddfa Gartref ydyw yn bennaf ac mae hithau wedi ein holi ni yn ei gylch. Yr ydym wedi datgan yn glir nad ydym yn cytuno â’r cynnig i leihau nifer y canolfannau tân o dair i un, yn enwedig mor fuan ar ôl lleihau’r nifer o wyth i dair. Credwn mai’r ffordd orau ymlaen yw cadw tair a rhoi cyfle iddynt weithio. Lle bynnag y rhowch yr unig ystafell reoli—os mai dyna a geir yn y diwedd—nid oes neb wedi ystyried y broblem o sicrhau digon o gynefindra gydag enwau lleoedd yng Nghymru o darddiad Cymraeg ac o darddiad Saesneg. Ceir yr un enw ar leoedd mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru, ac felly byddai’n rhaid sicrhau y gyrrid yr injan dân i’r lle iawn. Yr ydym yn pryderu na cheid gwasanaeth cystal pe gostyngid nifer yr ystafelloedd rheoli i un yn unig.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 16

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Thank you for that and for the answer that you gave me to a previous question regarding concerns over the fire service in Wales. The meeting of the central fire brigade advisory council next Wednesday is of significant importance to everybody in Wales for the reasons that you have just outlined. What assurances can you give us as an Assembly, and to me in particular as a former fire service worker, that you can influence the Mott Macdonald report to ensure that Wales maintains three efficient and effective fire service control rooms and that this is not the start of the slippery slope towards having one brigade for Wales.

Diolch ichi am hynny ac am yr ateb a roesoch i gwestiwn gennyf o’r blaen ynghylch pryderon am y gwasanaeth tân yng Nghymru. Mae cyfarfod cyngor cynghori canolog y brigadau tân ddydd Mercher nesaf o bwysigrwydd arwyddocaol i bawb yng Nghymru am y rhesymau yr ydych newydd eu hamlinellu. Pa sicrwydd allwch chi ei roi inni fel Cynulliad, ac i mi yn arbennig fel cyn-weithiwr gyda’r gwasanaeth tân, y gallwch ddylanwadu ar adroddiad Mott Macdonald i sicrhau bod Cymru’n cadw tair ystafell reoli gwasanaeth tân effeithlon ac effeithiol ac nad dechrau’r rhiw serth tuag at gael un frigâd i Gymru yw hyn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I think that the other 59 Members defer to your unique experience as the only Assembly Member, and probably the only member of any of the United Kingdom’s elected assemblies or parliaments, who has worked for a substantial part of their career in a fire service control room. Therefore, we listen to your views which result from a lifetime’s work experience in the hot seat. The letter that I wrote to Jack Straw was substantially based on the advice that you gave and the experience that you were able to offer from being there, knowing what the work is like and about the perils that are inherent in this proposal. That is why we have strongly objected to the proposals in the letter to Jack Straw.

Yr wyf yn meddwl bod y 59 Aelod arall yn plygu i’ch profiad unigryw fel yr unig Aelod Cynulliad, ac, mae’n debyg, yr unig aelod o unrhyw un o gynulliadau neu seneddau etholedig y Deyrnas Unedig, a weithiodd am ran sylweddol o’i gyrfa mewn ystafell reoli gwasanaeth tân. Felly, gwrandawn ar eich barn sydd yn deillio o brofiad gwaith oes yn y sedd boeth. Seiliwyd y llythyr a ysgrifennais at Jack Straw yn sylweddol ar y cyngor a roesoch chi a’r profiad yr oeddech yn gallu ei gynnig o fod wedi bod yno, gwybod sut beth yw’r gwaith ac am y peryglon sydd ynghlwm wrth y cynnig hwn. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi gwrthwynebu’r cynigion yn gryf yn y llythyr at Jack Straw.

David Melding spoken in English p. 17

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Does the First Secretary agree that many hospitals in Wales remain obstacle courses to people with disabilities and that this is a particular area which needs to be improved?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cytuno bod llawer o ysbytai yng Nghymru’n dal i fod yn gyrsiau rhwystrau i bobl ag anableddau a bod hwn yn faes arbennig sydd angen ei wella?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I would be interested to hear more from you on that. I do not deny that it could be true but, obviously, all public buildings are still adapting to the loss of crown immunity and, therefore, the application of all sorts of laws to building regulations and so on. I do not doubt that access for people with physical disabilities to get up and down steps where there is no ramp access or no effective lift service is a problem. When you lose crown immunity and therefore have to meet obligations for the first time, it can take the best part of a decade before you are able to adapt fully.

Byddai gennyf ddiddordeb mewn clywed mwy gennych ar hynny. Ni wadaf y gallai fod yn wir ond, yn amlwg, mae pob adeilad cyhoeddus yn dal i ymaddasu i golli imiwnedd y goron ac, felly, bod yn berthnasol i holl ddeddfau rheoliadau adeiladu ac yn y blaen. Nid wyf yn amau nad yw mynediad yn broblem i bobl ag anableddau corfforol o ran mynd i fyny ac i lawr grisiau lle nad oes ramp na gwasanaeth lifft effeithiol. Pan gollir imiwnedd y goron a bod angen cydymffurfio â dyletswyddau am y tro cyntaf, gall gymryd y rhan orau o ddegawd cyn ichi allu ymaddasu’n llawn.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 17

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Do you agree that sustainable transport is essential to tackling social exclusion in Wales and will you, therefore, make representations to the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the strategic rail authority to ensure that any single rail franchise which is brought to Wales has adequate levels of subsidy to ensure that we can expand rail services in Wales to enable people to access those services?

A gytunwch fod trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy’n hanfodol i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru ac a wnewch chi, felly, bwyso ar Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a’r awdurdod rheilffyrdd strategol i sicrhau bod gan unrhyw fasnachfraint rheilffordd sengl a ddaw i Gymru lefelau digonol o gymhorthdal i sicrhau y gallwn ehangu gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru i alluogi pobl i ddefnyddio’r gwasanaethau hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Thank you for that timely question. However, I would put it the other way around, that if we do not get an adequate level of subsidy, we are not going to get the all-Wales franchise with the services. One depends on the other. Whether we can find the resources to fund an effective all-Wales franchise depends to a great degree on the comprehensive spending review next week.

Diolch am y cwestiwn amserol hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, byddwn i’n ei fynegi fel arall, sef os na chawn lefel ddigonol o gymhorthdal, na chawn y fasnachfraint i Gymru gyfan gyda’r gwasanaethau. Mae’r naill yn dibynnu ar y llall. Mae’r cwestiwn a allwn ganfod yr adnoddau i ariannu masnachfraint effeithiol i Gymru gyfan yn dibynnu i raddau helaeth ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yr wythnos nesaf.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 18

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 7.13. The Post-16 Education and Training Committee was scheduled to continue its wide-ranging review of the arts tomorrow. This has been halted as a result of a civil case in London. Given the number of London jury members who listen to the Welsh media, this strikes me as an overreaction. Will you ask the Presiding Officer to look again at the application of the sub judice rule to this case?

Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.13. Rhaglennwyd i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 barhau â’i adolygiad eang o’r celfyddydau yfory. Gohiriwyd hyn oherwydd achos sifil yn Llundain. O gofio nifer yr aelodau rheithgor yn Llundain sydd yn gwrando ar y cyfryngau Cymreig, mae hyn yn fy nharo i fel gorymateb. A wnewch chi ofyn i’r Llywydd edrych eto ar y defnydd o’r rheol sub judice yn yr achos hwn?

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 18

Croesawaf y ffaith fod Alun wedi codi’r mater hwn. Awgrymwyd i mi ddydd Gwener diwethaf y byddai’n amhriodol i’r Pwyllgor drafod yn gyhoeddus yr argymhellion mewn perthynas â’r adolygiad o gelfyddydau a diwylliant. Derbyniais y cyngor hwn. Yn amlwg, mae hynny’n gwneud pethau’n anodd i’r Pwyllgor a bydd yn gohirio cyhoeddi’r adroddiad ym mis Medi. Byddwn yn croesawu arweiniad i Bwyllgorau yn y math hwn o sefyllfa ar gyfer y dyfodol.

I welcome the fact that Alun has raised this matter. It was suggested to me last Friday that it would be inappropriate for the Committee to discuss in public the recommendations relating to the arts and culture review. I accepted this advice. Obviously, that makes things difficult for the Committee and it will delay the publication of the report in September. I would welcome guidance for Committees in such a situation for the future.

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I will take that point of order back to the Presiding Officer and we will make a statement in due course.

Cymeraf y pwynt hwnnw o drefn yn ôl at y Llywydd ac fe wnawn ddatganiad maes o law.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I will start by informing Members of the changes made to this week’s business. Following a meeting of the Business Committee this morning, I e-mailed all Assembly Members informing them that we propose to reconvene the Assembly on Wednesday 19 July to debate the outcome of the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s announcement on the comprehensive spending review. In accordance with Standing Order No. 6.2, the First Secretary has proposed—and I understand that you have agreed—to recall the Assembly next week. It is intended that the debate will start at 11 a.m. and finish at approximately 1 p.m. to 1.30 p.m. The format of the debate will be the subject of further discussions. I therefore propose to withdraw the motion to debate the comprehensive spending review tomorrow. As a consequence of withdrawing this motion, I propose to move the last item of today’s business—the debate on the annual report of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity—to tomorrow afternoon. I will propose a procedural motion after this statement seeking the Assembly’s agreement. I discussed this with the Business Committee this morning.

Dechreuaf drwy hysbysu Aelodau am y newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Yn dilyn cyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, e-bostiais holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad i’w hysbysu ein bod yn bwriadu ailgynnull y Cynulliad ddydd Mercher 19 Gorffennaf i drafod canlyniad cyhoeddiad Canghellor y Trysorlys ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.2, mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cynnig—a deallaf eich bod chi wedi cytuno—i ailgynnull y Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf. Bwriedir i’r ddadl ddechrau am 11 a.m. a gorffen am oddeutu 1 p.m. i 1.30 p.m. Trafodir fformat y ddadl ymhellach eto. Felly bwriadaf dynnu’n ôl y cynnig i drafod yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yfory. Yn sgîl tynnu’r cynnig hwn yn ôl, bwriadaf symud eitem olaf busnes heddiw—y ddadl ar adroddiad blynyddol y Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal—ymlaen i brynhawn yfory. Cynigiaf gynnig trefniadol wedi’r datganiad hwn yn gofyn am gytundeb y Cynulliad. Trafodais hyn gyda’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma.

I turn to the first three weeks’ business after our return from our constituency weeks on 11 September. Business on Tuesday 12 September is as I reported last week. However, last week, I said that business on Thursday 14 September would include a discussion on the results of the consultation on the local government standard spending assessment formula held during the summer months. It has been suggested that the timing of this debate is too soon after the end of the consultation period and therefore not enough time would be allowed to consider the outcome of the consultation before the debate. Therefore, I have agreed to defer this debate until after the party conference season and it will now be held on 12 October with the agreement of the Business Committee.

Trof at y tair wythnos gyntaf o fusnes wedi inni ddychwelyd o’n hwythnosau etholaeth ar 11 Medi. Bydd busnes dydd Mawrth 12 Medi fel a adroddais yr wythnos diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedais y byddai busnes dydd Iau 14 Medi yn cynnwys trafodaeth ar ganlyniadau’r ymgynghori ar fformwla asesiad gwariant safonol llywodraeth leol a fydd wedi digwydd yn ystod misoedd yr haf. Awgrymwyd bod amseriad y ddadl hon yn rhy fuan ar ôl diwedd y cyfnod ymgynghori ac felly na chaniateid digon o amser i ystyried canlyniad yr ymgynghori cyn y ddadl. Felly, yr wyf wedi cytuno i ohirio’r ddadl hon tan ar ôl tymor cynadleddau’r pleidiau ac fe’i cynhelir bellach ar 12 Hydref gyda chytundeb y Pwyllgor Busnes.

There will be no Plenary between 18 September and 6 October due to the national political party conference season. Business on Tuesday 10 October is as I reported last week. Business on the 12 October will include a debate on the standard spending assessment consultation. On Tuesday 17 October there will be a debate on the annual report of the Committee on Standards of Conduct, and on Thursday 19 October, there will be a debate on a motion proposed by Plaid Cymru. I will make arrangements to post a copy of this statement on the intranet and the internet later today.

Ni fydd Cyfarfod Llawn rhwng 18 Medi a 6 Hydref oherwydd tymor cynadleddau’r pleidiau gwleidyddol cenedlaethol. Bydd busnes dydd Mawrth 10 Hydref fel a adroddais yr wythnos diwethaf. Bydd busnes 12 Hydref yn cynnwys dadl ar ymgynghoriad yr asesiad gwariant safonol. Ddydd Mawrth 17 Hydref cynhelir dadl ar adroddiad blynyddol y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, a dydd Iau 19 Hydref cynhelir dadl ar gynnig gan Blaid Cymru. Gwnaf drefniadau i bostio copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw.

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 19

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Are there any objections to or comments on the Business Statement?

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau neu sylwadau ar y Datganiad Busnes?

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 20

Croesawaf y ffaith fod y Trefnydd wedi cytuno i’r alwad i ailgynnull y Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf i drafod yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Ni fydd gennym ond amser byr i ystyried cynnwys yr adolygiad. Dylem gael dadl lawnach ym mis Hydref pan ddychwelwn. Deallaf ei fod wedi gosod rhaglen ddrafft ar gyfer mis Hydref. A wnaiff ystyried cael dadl lawnach rywdro ar ôl y cynadleddau gwleidyddol ond cyn diwedd Hydref?

I welcome the fact that the Business Secretary has agreed to the call to reconvene the Assembly next week to discuss the comprehensive spending review. We will have only a short time to consider the contents of the review. We should have a fuller debate in October when we return. I understand that he has put forward a draft programme for October. Will he consider holding a full debate some time after the political conferences but before the end of October?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 20

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Your point is well made. The Finance Secretary will no doubt, in the discussions on the comprehensive spending review next week, outline the problems that we face on the Assembly deciding its priorities. Discussions must be undertaken during the summer, by which time the implications for what we hope will be an increase in the Welsh block grant will be understood. There will be a much fuller debate because this will feed into our own budget-making process, and the other political parties and the Subject Committees will have a point of view on any increased expenditure and priorities that they might have. The Finance Secretary will make these points in next week’s debate.

Mae eich pwynt wedi’i wneud yn dda. Bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn ddiau, yn y trafodaethau ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yr wythnos nesaf, yn amlinellu’r problemau a wynebwn wrth i’r Cynulliad benderfynu ar ei flaenoriaethau. Rhaid cael trafodaethau yn ystod yr haf, ac erbyn hynny bydd goblygiadau yr hyn a obeithiwn fydd yn gynnydd yn y grant bloc i Gymru wedi eu deall. Ceir dadl lawer llawnach oherwydd bydd hyn yn bwydo i mewn i’n proses ein hunain o lunio cyllideb, a bydd gan y pleidiau gwleidyddol eraill a’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc safbwynt ar unrhyw gynnydd mewn gwariant a’u blaenoriaethau hwy eu hunain. Bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn gwneud y pwyntiau hyn yn nadl yr wythnos nesaf.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I now call the Business Secretary to propose a procedural motion.

Galwaf yn awr ar y Trefnydd i gynnig cynnig trefniadol.

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 20

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 21

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 21

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Drafft

Composite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 21

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I remind Members that, in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.23A, these Orders will be put to an immediate vote without debate.

Atgoffaf Aelodau y caiff y Gorchmynion hyn, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.23A, eu rhoi i bleidlais yn syth heb ddadl.

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 22

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig cyfansawdd Andrew Davies t. 22

Composite motion Andrew Davies p. 22

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Fformwla Asesiad Gwariant Safonol Llywodraeth Leol

Local Government Standard Spending Assessment Formula

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Following the Assembly’s agreement to defer the debate on the Equal Opportunities Committee’s annual report, a further hour is freed for this afternoon’s debate, thus allowing more time for more contributions. In view of this, the guidelines on the timings of debates sent to you last Thursday are slightly less restrictive. However, I would be grateful if Members made their contributions brief to allow as many speakers as possible to be called. We now embark on a debate in which a number of Members will have an interest as county councillors. I ask that all Members in that position declare their interest when they begin to speak, in accordance with Standing Order No. 4.5.

Yn dilyn cytundeb y Cynulliad i ohirio’r ddadl ar adroddiad blynyddol y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, rhyddheir awr ychwanegol ar gyfer dadl y prynhawn hwn ac, o’r herwydd, ceir rhagor o amser ar gyfer rhagor o gyfraniadau. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, mae’r canllawiau a anfonwyd atoch ddydd Iau diwethaf am amseroedd dadleuon ychydig yn llai caeth. Fodd bynnag, buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe byddai’r Aelodau yn cadw eu cyfraniadau yn fyr er mwyn gallu galw cynifer â phosibl o siaradwyr. Yr ydym yn awr ar fin cychwyn dadl y bydd gan nifer o Aelodau ddiddordeb ynddi fel cynghorwyr sir. Gofynnaf i’r holl Aelodau sydd yn y sefyllfa honno ddatgan eu buddiant pan ddechreuant siarad, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 4.5.

I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Janet Ryder, amendment 3 in the name of Phil Williams, amendment 4 in the name of Peter Black and amendments 5 and 6 in the name of David Davies.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Janet Ryder, gwelliant 3 yn enw Phil Williams, gwelliant 4 yn enw Peter Black a gwelliannau 5 a 6 yn enw David Davies.

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 24

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 24

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

You have all had the opportunity to consider these proposals, which were e-mailed to you last Wednesday. I thank those who came to last week’s launch at the seminar in Llandrindod Wells. It was good to see cross-party representation at the event. Before turning to the amendments, I cannot overemphasise the status of this report. It is not at this stage a set of proposals by the Assembly’s Cabinet or the Welsh Local Government Association. It represents the advice of a team of Assembly and local government officials whose work has been overseen by independent assessors, advice that is due to go out for consultation. Amendment 1 by Janet Ryder asks that

Cawsoch i gyd gyfle i ystyried y cynigion hyn, a e-bostiwyd atoch ddydd Mercher diwethaf. Diolchaf i’r rheini a ddaeth i’r lansiad yr wythnos diwethaf yn y seminar yn Llandrindod. Yr oedd yn braf gweld cynrychiolaeth drawsbleidiol yn y digwyddiad. Cyn troi at y gwelliannau, ni allaf orbwysleisio statws yr adroddiad hwn. Nid yw, ar hyn o bryd, yn set o gynigion gan Gabinet y Cynulliad na Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Cynrychiola gyngor tîm o swyddogion o’r Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol, y goruchwyliwyd eu gwaith gan aseswyr annibynnol, cyngor sydd ar fin mynd allan i ymgynghoriad. Gofynna gwelliant 1 gan Janet Ryder

‘in the course of the consultation period the National Assembly requests the sub-group to give further consideration to:

‘yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori, bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gofyn i’r is-grŵp roi ystyriaeth bellach i:

1. The overall proportion of the SSA allocated as compensation for ‘sparsity’. 2. The varying level of ‘unmet need’, in such sectors as post-16 education, road maintenance and the upgrading of bridges to meet heavy lorry weights already approved at Westminster.’

1. Y gyfran o’r asesiad gwariant safonol a ddyrennir fel iawndal ar gyfer ‘prinder’. 2. Y lefel amrywiol o ‘angen heb ei ddiwallu’, mewn sectorau fel addysg ar ôl 16, cynnal a chadw ffyrdd a gwella pontydd er mwyn cludo’r lorïau trymach y mae San Steffan wedi’u caniatáu.’

The amendment asks that the distribution sub-group gives further consideration to the assessments for a range of important services and to the impact of sparsity. The distribution sub-group has addressed the first point. The group will need to consider the detailed responses to consultation on sparsity in the early autumn and come forward with further advice. That is what consultation is all about. The question of ‘unmet need’ would be better addressed by the consultative forum on finance—the distribution sub-group’s parent forum—as part of the process leading up to final decisions on the budget. The amendment is therefore inappropriate and I cannot support it because it tends to muddy the waters of this important consultation.

Gofynna’r gwelliant i’r is-grŵp dosbarthu roi ystyriaeth bellach i’r asesiadau ar gyfer amrediad o wasanaethau pwysig ac i effaith y teneurwydd. Mae’r is-grŵp dosbarthu wedi rhoi sylw i’r pwynt cyntaf. Bydd yn rhaid i’r grŵp ystyried yr ymatebion manwl a geir i’r ymgynghoriad ar brinder ddechrau’r hydref a chyflwyno rhagor o gyngor. Dyna’r rheswm dros gynnal yr ymgynghoriad. Byddai’n well i’r fforwm ymgynghori ar gyllid—rhiant fforwm yr is-grŵp dosbarthu—roi sylw i’r mater o ‘angen heb ei ddiwallu’ fel rhan o’r broses sydd yn arwain at benderfyniadau terfynol ar y gyllideb. Nid yw’r gwelliant felly yn briodol ac ni allaf ei gefnogi oherwydd y tuedda i faeddu dyfroedd yr ymgynghoriad pwysig hwn.

Janet Ryder’s amendment 2 asks that we add at the end of the motion that

Gofynna gwelliant 2 Janet Ryder inni ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig

‘the National Assembly further notes that without the allocation of extra resources some authorities will suffer a serious drop in SSA and therefore recommends that as a transitional arrangement these extra resources should be provided out of the budgetary reserves represented by “end of the year” flexibility.’

‘bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hefyd yn nodi y bydd gostyngiad sylweddol yn asesiad gwariant sylfaenol rhai awdurdodau os na chaiff adnoddau ychwanegol eu neilltuo ac y mae felly’n argymell y dylid darparu’r adnoddau ychwanegol hyn dros dro o’r cronfeydd cyllid sydd i’w cael o ganlyniad i hyblygrwydd “diwedd y flwyddyn”.’

I ask the Assembly to reject this amendment because it questions the whole budget-setting process. It would be entirely unreasonable for us to pre-empt the spending review in this way. That type of amendment is inappropriate because we are undergoing a consultation exercise for a new SSA formula. Furthermore, the linked issues of local government resources and what use should be made of end of the year flexibility will be dealt with comprehensibly as part of the spending review. I reassure Janet and everybody else on the matter of transitional arrangements. It was agreed at the consultative forum on finance last week that a joint Assembly/Welsh Local Government Association task and finish group should be appointed so that partners could consider the options and come forward with a workable scheme. It is important that we consider what steps, if any, it might be appropriate to take to limit the impact of any formula changes on particular authorities throughout Wales. The group has been asked to report to the consultative forum on finance by the end of September. All of this is in mind.

Gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad wrthod y gwelliant hwn gan ei fod yn codi cwestiynau am yr holl broses o bennu’r gyllideb. Byddai’n gwbl afresymol inni achub y blaen ar yr adolygiad o wariant fel hyn. Mae gwelliant o’r math hwn yn amhriodol gan ein bod yn cynnal ymarferiad ymgynghori ar gyfer fformwla newydd i asesu gwariant safonol. At hynny, bydd adnoddau llywodraeth leol a sut y dylem ddefnyddio hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn, fel materion cysylltiedig, yn faterion yr ymdrinnir â hwy yn gynhwysfawr fel rhan o’r adolygiad o wariant. Sicrhaf Janet a phawb arall am y mater o drefniadau dros dro. Cytunwyd yn y fforwm ymgynghorol ar gyllid yr wythnos diwethaf y dylid penodi grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar y cyd rhwng y Cynulliad/Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru er mwyn i’r partneriaid bwyso a mesur yr opsiynau a chyflwyno cynllun ymarferol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried pa gamau, os o gwbl, y byddai’n briodol eu cymryd er mwyn cyfyngu ar yr effaith a gaiff unrhyw newidiadau i’r fformwla ar awdurdodau penodol ledled Cymru. Gofynnwyd i’r grŵp adrodd i’r fforwm ymgynghori ar gyllid erbyn diwedd Medi. Mae hyn i gyd wedi’i gadw mewn cof.

I recommend acceptance of Phil Williams’s amendment 3 that we add at the end of the motion that the National Assembly:

Argymhellaf dderbyn gwelliant 3 Phil Williams ein bod yn ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol:

‘notes that some important recommendations from Swansea University/Pion Economics, designed to cover cases where areas of deprivation and prosperity are combined within a single authority, cannot be implemented because the necessary local area data is not available from all authorities’ and ‘recommends that a target should be set to acquire these data for all authorities in Wales.’

‘yn nodi na ellir gweithredu rhai o argymhellion Prifysgol Abertawe/Pion Economics, sy’n ymwneud ag ardaloedd lle bo ffyniant ac amddifadedd yn cydfodoli oddi mewn i un awdurdod, gan nad yw pob awdurdod wedi darparu’r wybodaeth angenrheidiol’ ac yn ‘argymell gosod targedau er mwyn casglu’r data hwn ar gyfer holl awdurdodau Cymru.’

Phil’s suggestions are helpful. By setting a target date we will signal to local authorities that we are serious about our intention to collect more robust data in the future. Some of the statistical work for the review has been hampered by the lack of adequate information, so we must address this information deficit.

Mae awgrymiadau Phil yn ddefnyddiol. Drwy bennu dyddiad targed byddwn yn rhoi arwydd i awdurdodau lleol ein bod o ddifrif am ein bwriad i gasglu data mwy cadarn i’r dyfodol. Llesteiriwyd peth o’r gwaith ystadegol ar gyfer yr adolygiad oherwydd diffyg gwybodaeth ddigonol, felly mae’n rhaid inni roi sylw i’r diffyg gwybodaeth yma.

Peter Black’s amendment 4 requested that we add at the end of the motion that

Gofynna gwelliant Peter Black inni ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig

‘the National Assembly urges the Finance Secretary and the Secretary for Local Government and Housing to ensure that more money is added to the local government settlement so as to ensure that no council loses out as a result of the new formula and that the average Welsh council tax does not rise above the rate of inflation in 2000-01.’

‘bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn annog yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid a’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai i sicrhau bod mwy o arian yn cael ei ychwanegu at y setliad llywodraeth leol er mwyn sicrhau nad oes yr un Cyngor ar ei golled o ganlyniad i’r fformwla newydd ac nad yw cyfartaledd y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru yn codi’n uwch na lefel chwyddiant 2000-01.’

I recommend that the Assembly rejects this amendment for the same reasons that I put forward for rejecting Janet’s amendment 2. It would be wrong to pre-empt our consideration of the spending review. I have already said that work on looking at the options for moderating the impact of any SSA changes on council tax has been commissioned by the consultative forum on finance. Peter, you know in your heart of hearts that it is impossible to ensure that no council loses out. I want to make it as smooth a transition as possible because I am the Secretary for Local Government and Housing and I am concerned about all 22 authorities in Wales and about all the people who live in Wales’s communities. We have always said openly that there would be a measure of redistribution, given the greater emphasis on social deprivation measures and better-targeted sparsity indicators. Ensuring that council tax does not rise above the rate of inflation again is a matter for the comprehensive spending review. Tomorrow, we will have the first of several opportunities to debate our spending priorities.

Argymhellaf fod y Cynulliad yn gwrthod y gwelliant hwn am yr un rhesymau ag a gyflwynais am wrthod gwelliant 2 Janet. Ni fyddai’n iawn inni achub y blaen ar ein hystyriaeth o’r adolygiad o wariant. Dywedais eisoes fod y fforwm ymgynghorol ar gyllid wedi comisiynu gwaith ar edrych ar yr opsiynau ar gyfer cymedroli’r effaith a gaiff unrhyw newidiadau i’r asesiad gwariant safonol ar dreth y cyngor. Peter, fe wyddoch yn nwfn eich calon ei bod yn amhosibl sicrhau nad oes unrhyw gyngor ar ei golled. Hoffwn i’r newid ddigwydd mor ddidrafferth â phosibl gan mai fi yw’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ac yr wyf yn bryderus am y cyfan o’r 22 awdurdod yng Nghymru ac am yr holl bobl sydd yn byw yng nghymunedau Cymru. Yr ydym wastad wedi dweud yn agored y ceid rhyw gymaint o ailddosbarthu, o gofio’r pwyslais mwy a roddwyd ar fesurau amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac ar ddangosyddion teneurwydd wedi’u targedu’n well. Mater i’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yw sicrhau nad yw’r dreth gyngor yn codi’n uwch na’r gyfradd chwyddiant eto. Yfory, cawn ein cyfle cyntaf o lawer i drafod ein blaenoriaethau gwario.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 27

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

On your point about the rates of council tax not exceeding the rates of inflation, is it not the Government in London’s policy to drive up council tax rates in Wales so that they meet the English average? Is it not the case that Wales simply could not afford that kind of increase over the next few years because gross domestic product levels in Wales are much lower than in England?

Ynglyn â’ch pwynt am beidio â chodi cyfraddau’r dreth gyngor uwchlaw’r gyfradd chwyddiant, onid yw cynyddu cyfraddau’r dreth gyngor yng Nghymru yn un o bolisïau’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain fel eu bod yn cyrraedd y ffigur cyfartalog yn Lloegr? Onid yw’n wir na all Cymru fforddio cynnydd o’r fath dros y blynyddoedd nesaf gan fod lefelau’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yng Nghymru yn llawer is nag yn Lloegr?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 27

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

We have seen that approach in the past. However, we have not had the result of the comprehensive spending review yet. I look forward to that. Hopefully, we will have information on it in next week’s discussion and then we will know where we are going with regard to local government funding. It is not wise to pre-empt that. We cannot predict the situation in terms of council tax increases, but we can do everything possible to ensure that any transition from the old formula to the new formula is as user-friendly as possible. I will elaborate on that in a moment.

Gwelsom weithredu o’r fath yn y gorffennol. Fodd bynnag, ni chawsom ganlyniad yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant eto. Edrychaf ymlaen at hynny. Gobeithio y bydd gennym wybodaeth arno yn nhrafodaeth yr wythnos nesaf ac yna byddwn yn gwybod i ble yr ydym yn mynd o safbwynt cyllid llywodraeth leol. Annoeth fyddai achub y blaen ar hynny. Ni allwn ddarogan y sefyllfa o safbwynt cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor, ond gallwn wneud popeth sydd yn bosibl i sicrhau y bydd unrhyw newid o’r hen fformwla i’r fformwla newydd yn digwydd mor ddidrafferth â phosibl. Byddaf yn ymhelaethu ar hynny mewn munud.

On amendment 5, I am not surprised that David Davies has proposed an amendment on this issue. I am sorry to correct you, David, but you were never assured that the weight attached to sparsity measures would not change. However, in the Local Government and Housing Committee meeting on 5 April, I promised you that the formula would take account of the dispersion of population, and it does. Rurality and sparsity are key factors in the formula proposals but I do not underestimate the strength of feeling on this issue. I hope that David and others will accept my assurance that the distribution sub-group will examine closely the responses to consultation on this issue and present further advice on the way forward.

Ynglyn â gwelliant 5, nid wyf yn synnu bod David Davies wedi cynnig gwelliant ar y mater hwn. Ymddiheuraf am eich cywiro, David, ond ni chawsoch erioed eich sicrhau na fyddai’r pwysau sydd ynghlwm wrth fesurau teneurwydd yn newid. Fodd bynnag, yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar 5 Ebrill, addewais y byddai’r fformwla yn rhoi ystyriaeth i wasgariad y boblogaeth, ac mae’n gwneud hynny. Mae teneurwydd a gwledigrwydd yn ffactorau allweddol yng nghynigion y fformwla ond nid wyf yn tanamcangyfrif cryfder y teimlad ar y mater hwn. Gobeithiaf y bydd David ac eraill yn derbyn fy sicrwydd y bydd yr is-grŵp dosbarthu yn archwilio’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad yn fanwl ac yn cyflwyno rhagor o gyngor ar y ffordd ymlaen.

I ask the Assembly to reject amendment 6 by David Davies because the Assembly should not deplore the work of the distribution sub-group. The members of that group have done a marvellous job for us over three years and have worked untiringly. I thank them very much for that. They did their work objectively and rigorously, in full accordance with their remit, which David—as a member of the consultative forum on finance—agreed in January.

Gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad wrthod gwelliant 6 gan David Davies gan na ddylai’r Cynulliad wfftio gwaith yr is-grŵp dosbarthu. Mae aelodau’r grŵp hwn wedi gwneud gwaith ardderchog inni dros dair blynedd ac wedi gweithio yn ddiflino. Diolchaf yn fawr iddynt am hynny. Gwnaethant eu gwaith yn wrthrychol ac yn drylwyr, yn gwbl unol â’u cylch gwaith: cylch gwaith y bu i David—fel aelod o’r fforwm ymgynghorol ar gyllid—gytuno arno yn Ionawr.

Some of you will ask why the overall weight given to population dispersion indicators has fallen from 8 per cent to 6 per cent. There is a clear answer to that. The distribution sub-group’s work implies that the present formula—

Bydd rhai ohonoch yn gofyn paham fod y pwysau cyffredinol a roddwyd ar ddangosyddion gwasgariad y boblogaeth wedi syrthio o 8 y cant i 6 y cant. Mae ateb clir i hynny. Awgryma gwaith yr is-grŵp dosbarthu fod y fformwla bresennol—

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 28

Un o’r pryderon sydd gan rai ohonom yw y gallai egwyddorion a benderfynir mewn perthynas â’r asesiad gwario safonol gael eu cymhwyso i gyllido awdurdodau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd. Mae pryder naturiol y gallai ardaloedd helaeth yn y Canolbarth sydd eisoes yn dioddef o ddiffyg cyllid digonol gael eu cosbi, tra bod system cyllido iechyd yr Alban, er enghraifft, yn symud tuag at gydnabod teneurwydd poblogaeth fel ffactor. A wnaiff Peter Law ein sicrhau na fydd egwyddorion y mater hwn yn cael eu trosglwyddo i feysydd megis y gwasanaeth iechyd?

One of the concerns that some of us have is that principles decided with regard to the standard spending assessment could be applied to funding health authorities and trusts. There is a natural concern that extensive areas in mid Wales that already suffer from a lack of sufficient funding could be punished, while the health funding system in Scotland, for example, moves towards recognising population sparsity as a factor. Will Peter Law assure us that the principles of this matter will not be transferred to areas such as the health service?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 29

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I cannot speak on behalf of my colleague, Jane Hutt, the Secretary for Health and Social Services, because the health service is subject to its own formula calculations and has nothing to do with this local government calculation, although I understand your question and concerns. I am sure that she is listening and will bear that point in mind.

Ni allaf siarad ar ran fy nghyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt, yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, gan fod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn ddarostyngedig i’w gyfrifiadau fformwla ei hun ac nid oes ganddo ddim i’w wneud â’r cyfrifiad llywodraeth leol hwn, er fy mod yn deall eich cwestiwn a’ch pryderon. Yr wyf yn sicr ei bod yn gwrando ac y bydd yn cadw’r pwynt hwn mewn cof.

The distribution sub-group has looked at the result of the inadequate and poorly targeted measures of sparsity used in the present formula. Using the new and more accurate measures developed for the Welsh Local Government Association and ourselves by Pion Economics, we can ensure that the SSA link to sparsity goes to the authorities and services that need it. It must also be right that we give greater weight to social deprivation. It would be surprising for authorities as diverse as Monmouthshire and some of the Valley councils to be given equal support for pressures imposed by providing services to disadvantaged communities. To reinforce this, I remind the Assembly that none of the wards, for example in Monmouthshire, are among the 25 per cent most deprived in Wales, and only one is among the 50 per cent most disadvantaged. I ask you, therefore, to reject David Davies’s amendment 6, because it is inappropriate.

Mae’r is-grŵp dosbarthu wedi edrych ar ganlyniadau’r mesurau teneurwydd, sydd yn annigonol ac wedi’u targedu’n wael, a ddefnyddir yn y fformwla bresennol. Gan ddefnyddio’r mesurau newydd a mwy manwl gywir a ddatblygwyd gan Pion Economics ar gyfer Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a ninnau, gallwn sicrhau y bydd cysylltiad yr asesiad gwariant safonol gyda phrinder yn mynd i’r awdurdodau a’r gwasanaethau y mae arnynt ei angen. Mae’n iawn hefyd ein bod yn rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar amddifadedd cymdeithasol. Byddai’n syfrdanol pe byddai awdurdodau mor wahanol â Mynwy a rhai o gynghorau’r Cymoedd yn cael yr un gefnogaeth am bwysau a achosir drwy ddarparu gwasanaethau i gymunedau dan anfantais. I atgyfnerthu hyn, hoffwn atgoffa’r Cynulliad nad oes yr un o’r wardiau, er enghraifft ym Mynwy, ymhlith y 25 y cant mwyaf amddifadus yng Nghymru, ac un yn unig sydd ymhlith y 50 y cant mwyaf difreintiedig. Gofynnaf ichi, felly, wrthod gwelliant 6 David Davies, gan ei fod yn amhriodol.

The distribution sub-group has met its brief, and it has presented proposals for a new formula that better reflect the impact of deprivation and population dispersion on local services. The group’s objectivity has been confirmed by its two independent assessors, Professor Hugh Coombs of the University of Glamorgan and David Adams Jones, ex chief statistician at the Welsh Office. It is important to stress that last Monday’s seminar was a joint National Assembly and local government event, and a prime example of partnership working in practice. The cross-party interest in the event was clear evidence—if any was needed—that all of us understand that the issues at stake have a direct impact on every citizen in Wales. A major resource allocation exercise of this kind will be a real and public test of our ability to reach well-informed decisions on matters where we need to bring into play evidence-based policy and our broader objectives as set out in ‘Betterwales.com’. The Assembly will have a further opportunity in September to debate the responses to the consultation. We will also have an opportunity in Plenary, when I present the local government finance report in the autumn, to consider the use of the formula that emerges following consultation.

Mae’r is-grŵp dosbarthu wedi bodloni ei gyfarwyddyd, ac mae wedi cyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer fformwla newydd sydd yn adlewyrchu’n well effaith amddifadedd a gwasgariad y boblogaeth ar wasanaethau lleol. Cadarnhawyd gwrthrychedd y grŵp gan ei ddau asesydd annibynnol, yr Athro Hugh Coombs o Brifysgol Morgannwg a David Adams Jones, cyn brif ystadegydd yn y Swyddfa Gymreig. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio mai digwyddiad ar y cyd rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a llywodraeth leol oedd y seminar a gynhaliwyd ddydd Llun diwethaf, a’i fod yn enghraifft wych o bartneriaeth ar waith. Yr oedd y diddordeb trawsbleidiol yn y digwyddiad yn dystiolaeth bendant—os oedd angen tystiolaeth—ein bod i gyd yn deall bod y materion sydd yn y fantol yn cael effaith uniongyrchol ar bob dinesydd yng Nghymru. Bydd ymarferiad dyrannu adnoddau pwysig o’r fath yn brawf gwirioneddol a chyhoeddus o’n gallu i ddod i benderfyniadau cytbwys ar faterion lle mae’n rhaid inni roi ystyriaeth i bolisi ar sail tystiolaeth ac o’n hamcanion ehangach fel a esbonnir yn ‘GwellCymru.com’. Bydd gan y Cynulliad gyfle arall ym mis Medi i ddadlau’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad. Bydd gennym hefyd gyfle mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, pan gyflwynaf adroddiad ariannol llywodraeth leol yn yr hydref, i ystyried defnydd y fformwla a ddaw i’r amlwg yn sgîl yr ymgynghoriad.

In closing, I assure Members that I am concerned about all the authorities in Wales. I am concerned that a number of them were shocked to see, with the publication of this formula last week, that a number of areas will lose out. That is why I have asked for a transitional scheme to be implemented, so that we are in a position to ease that changeover and to take account of the needs of those communities. I would not want to see anything less, bearing in mind that I come from a place that has suffered from this for some time. That is the genuine approach that we should adopt to this important subject. I will be interested to hear Members’ contributions.

Wrth gloi, sicrhaf yr Aelodau fy mod yn pryderu am holl awdurdodau Cymru. Yr wyf yn pryderu bod nifer ohonynt wedi eu syfrdanu o weld, gyda chyhoeddiad y fformwla hon yr wythnos diwethaf, y bydd nifer o ardaloedd ar eu colled. Dyna paham yr wyf wedi gofyn am weithredu cynllun dros dro, fel ein bod mewn sefyllfa i esmwytháu’r newid hwn a rhoi ystyriaeth i anghenion y cymunedau hynny. Nid wyf am weld dim llai, o gofio fy mod yn hanu o le sydd wedi dioddef o hyn am gryn amser. Dyma’r dull gweithredu dilys y dylem ei fabwysiadu ar gyfer y pwnc pwysig hwn. Bydd gennyf ddiddordeb mewn clywed cyfraniadau’r Aelodau.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 30

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I propose amendment 1. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

Janet Ryder (continued) spoken in English p. 30

Janet Ryder (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I propose amendment 2. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

Janet Ryder (continued) spoken in English p. 31

Janet Ryder (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I also propose amendment 3 in the name of Phil Williams.

Cynigiaf welliant 3 hefyd yn enw Phil Williams.

Janet Ryder (continued) spoken in English p. 31

Janet Ryder (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Add at the end of the motion:

Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

And that the National Assembly:

A bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol:

notes that some important recommendations from Swansea University/Pion Economics, designed to cover cases where areas of deprivation and prosperity are combined within a single authority, cannot be implemented because the necessary local area data is not available from all authorities; and

yn nodi na ellir gweithredu rhai o argymhellion Prifysgol Abertawe/Pion Economics, sy’n ymwneud ag ardaloedd lle bo ffyniant a thlodi’n cydfodoli oddi mewn i un awdurdod, gan nad yw pob awdurdod wedi darparu’r wybodaeth angenrheidiol; ac yn

recommends that a target should be set to acquire these data for all authorities in Wales.

argymell gosod targedau er mwyn casglu’r data hwn ar gyfer holl awdurdodau Cymru.

This is one of the most important issues that will be dealt with by the Assembly. Local government takes up about a third of the Assembly’s budget, and local authorities provide services that impact upon the quality of people’s lives daily. We are at the beginning of the consultation process. Are we today forming the response of the National Assembly to that process? If so, is the Government of Wales’s response an example of how it will treat the consultation process? The timing is far from ideal. The summer recess is not the best time to consult on such an important issue—open government while the shop is shut.

Dyma un o’r materion pwysicaf y bydd y Cynulliad yn delio â hwy. Mae llywodraeth leol yn cymryd oddeutu traean o gyllideb y Cynulliad, ac mae awdurdodau lleol yn darparu gwasanaethau sydd yn effeithio ar ansawdd bywydau pobl bob dydd. Yr ydym ar ddechrau’r broses ymgynghori. A ydym heddiw yn ffurfio ymateb y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i’r broses honno? Os felly, a yw ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru yn enghraifft o sut y bydd yn trin y broses ymgynghori? Mae’r amseru’n bell o fod yn ddelfrydol. Nid toriad yr haf yw’r amser gorau i ymgynghori ar fater mor bwysig—llywodraeth agored tra bod y siop ar gau.

The crux of the problem with regard to the existing formula is that it fails to reflect adequately the varied costs of service provision across Wales. In recent years, various adjustments have been wedged into the formula to try to reduce the mismatch between standard spending assessments and budgets. This has led to the weight attached to indicators being essentially judgmental. The report by the University of Wales Swansea and Pion Economics states that these were short-term and inadequate measures which have resulted in a loss of objectivity.

Craidd y broblem o safbwynt y fformwla bresennol yw ei bod yn methu ag adlewyrchu’n ddigonol y costau amrywiol o ddarparu gwasanaethau ledled Cymru. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ceisiwyd gwasgu amrywiol newidiadau i’r fformwla i geisio lleihau’r camgymhariad rhwng asesiadau gwariant safonol a chyllidebau. Arweiniodd hyn at i’r pwysau sydd ynghlwm wrth ddangosyddion fod yn hanfodol ddyfarnol. Noda’r adroddiad gan Brifysgol Cymru Abertawe a Pion Economics mai mesurau tymor byr ac annigonol oedd y rhain a’u bod wedi peri diffyg gwrthrychedd.

That objectivity needs to be maintained during the consultation period, which, at times, may not be easy in the face of many parochial interests. Nevertheless, we hope that responses will be fully taken on board and that it will be a worthwhile exercise, not simply paying lip service to the consultation process.

Rhaid cynnal y gwrthrychedd hwn drwy gydol y cyfnod ymgynghori, rhywbeth na fydd yn hawdd efallai, ar adegau, yn wyneb yr holl fuddiannau plwyfol. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiwn y rhoddir ystyriaeth lawn i’r ymatebion ac y bydd yn ymarferiad gwerth chweil, ac nid ond yn esgus cefnogi’r broses ymgynghori.

I would have liked an assurance that this matter would return to Plenary in September. I accept that that is close to the end of the consultation. However, I want an assurance that, when it returns to Plenary in early October, there will be plenty of time to amend the formula, if needed, before it is released to local government. It is important that local government is aware of the new formula as soon as possible.

Buaswn wedi hoffi cael sicrwydd y byddai’r mater hwn yn dychwelyd i Gyfarfod Llawn ym mis Medi. Derbyniaf fod hyn yn agos i ddiwedd yr ymgynghoriad. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn gael sicrwydd, pan ddychwela i Gyfarfod Llawn ar ddechrau Hydref, y ceir digon o amser i newid y fformwla, os oes angen, cyn ei rhyddhau i lywodraeth leol. Mae’n bwysig bod llywodraeth leol yn ymwybodol o’r fformwla newydd cyn gynted â phosibl.

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales supports the increased emphasis on deprivation indicators. However, we are concerned about the reduction in the sparsity weighting from 8 per cent to 6 per cent. We hope that this will be considered further during the consultation process. Many counties, not only rural ones, could benefit from this.

Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn cefnogi’r pwyslais cynyddol a roddir ar ddangosyddion amddifadedd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn bryderus am y gostyngiad yn y pwysoliad teneurwydd o 8 y cant i 6 y cant. Gobeithiwn y caiff hyn ei ystyried ymhellach yn ystod y broses ymgynghori. Gallai nifer o siroedd, nid yn unig rai gwledig, elwa o hyn.

One basic feature of the new methodology is that it is based on the existing pattern of expenditure and therefore does not take unmet need into account—

Un nodwedd sylfaenol o’r fethodoleg newydd yw ei bod yn seiliedig ar y patrwm gwariant cyfredol ac nad yw, felly, yn rhoi ystyriaeth i angen heb ei ddiwallu—

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 32

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Do you accept that it is not possible to increase the amount of compensation for sparsity without decreasing the amount available for deprivation? My local authority has already lost out because of the measures for sparsity. By pushing that, more money will be taken from my local authority and all other Valley authorities.

A dderbyniwch nad oedd modd cynyddu’r iawndal am brinder heb docio’r swm sydd ar gael am amddifadedd? Mae fy awdurdod lleol eisoes ar ei golled oherwydd y mesurau ar gyfer teneurwydd. Drwy wthio hwnnw, bydd rhagor o arian yn cael ei gymryd oddi wrth fy awdurdod lleol a holl awdurdodau eraill y Cymoedd.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 32

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

All I am asking for is for it to be considered and revisited during the consultation process, in the light of the other consultation responses that are received.

Y cyfan y gofynnaf amdano yw y rhoddir ystyriaeth ac y dychwelir drachefn at hyn yn ystod y broses ymgynghori, yng ngoleuni’r ymatebion eraill a geir yn sgîl yr ymgynghoriad.

Secondary education is a good example of unmet need. More money is given to areas where a high proportion of pupils proceed to post-16 education, and areas where far fewer pupils stay on are penalised. An extra indicator representing the whole cohort population between 16 and 18 years old could represent the unmet need.

Mae addysg uwchradd yn enghraifft dda o angen heb ei ddiwallu. Rhoddir mwy o arian i ardaloedd lle mae cyfran uchel o’r disgyblion yn symud ymlaen i addysg ôl-16, a chosbir ardaloedd lle mae llawer llai o ddisgyblion yn mynd yn eu blaenau. Gallai dangosydd ychwanegol, a fyddai’n cynrychioli’r boblogaeth gyfan rhwng 16 a 18 mlwydd oed, gynrychioli’r angen heb ei ddiwallu.

Road maintenance and upgrading bridges is another example. In March 2000, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that 44-tonne lorries will be allowed on the road network from January 2001. Unlike those in England, Welsh authorities have had to bear the cost of bridge assessment and strengthening without the aid of funding. Without additional resources targeted at assessment and strengthening, Wales cannot meet the European Directive on accepting articulated vehicles with five or more axles weighing up to 40 tonnes until 2020. There is also significant unmet need in the backlog of school and housing repairs. The list is endless. The basis of amendment 1 is that there must be more effort to quantify unmet need.

Mae cynnal a chadw ffyrdd ac uwchraddio pontydd yn enghraifft arall. Ym mis Mawrth 2000, cyhoeddodd Canghellor y Trysorlys y caniateir i lorïau 44 tunnell fynd ar rwydwaith y ffyrdd o fis Ionawr 2001 ymlaen. Yn wahanol i’r rheini yn Lloegr, bu’n rhaid i awdurdodau Cymru dalu’r gost o asesu a chryfhau pontydd heb gymorth nawdd. Heb adnoddau ychwanegol ar gyfer y gwaith asesu a chryfhau, ni all Cymru fodloni’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd ar dderbyn cerbydau cymalog gyda phum echel neu ragor sydd yn pwyso hyd at 40 tunnell tan 2020. Mae’r atgyweiriadau sydd wedi hel mewn ysgolion a thai hefyd yn angen sylweddol sydd heb ei ddiwallu. Mae’r rhestr yn ddiddiwedd. Sail gwelliant 1 yw bod yn rhaid rhoi mwy o ymdrech i fesur angen heb ei ddiwallu.

Amendment 2 relates to the need for a transitional arrangement. Since local government reorganisation, we have seen the need for a damping mechanism. As Peter Law said, he has maintained that he did not want a new damping mechanism again this year, and hoped that it would be unnecessary, as funds would be distributed more fairly. As he said, there will be major winners and losers under the new formula.

Mae gwelliant 2 yn ymwneud â’r angen am drefniant dros dro. Ers ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, gwelsom yr angen am beirianwaith lleddfu. Fel y dywedodd Peter Law, mae ef wedi honni nad oedd arno eisiau peirianwaith lleddfu newydd eto eleni, a gobeithiai na fyddai’n angenrheidiol, gan y byddai cyllid yn cael ei ddosbarthu’n decach. Fel y dywedodd, bydd enillwyr a chollwyr sylweddol dan y fformwla newydd.

It is unreasonable to expect counties to adjust instantly to the new formula. A transitional arrangement must be in place. Following last year’s problems, when the damping grant was top-sliced from the local government pot, transitional arrangements should be funded out of the Assembly’s budgetary reserves this year. This could be met by last year’s substantial underspend, which the Finance Secretary announced recently.

Mae’n afresymol disgwyl i siroedd addasu i’r fformwla newydd ar unwaith. Rhaid sefydlu trefniant dros dro. Yn dilyn problemau y llynedd, pan frig-dorrwyd y grant lleddfu o gist llywodraeth leol, dylid ariannu trefniadau dros dro o gronfeydd cyllid y Cynulliad eleni. Gellid talu am hwn gyda thanwariant sylweddol y llynedd, tanwariant a gyhoeddodd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn ddiweddar.

While the new formula achieves a more equitable distribution of the funds available, it cannot address the most fundamental problem, namely that the pool of money allocated to local government in Wales remains too small. Plaid Cymru calls for a significant increase in the overall amount of money made available to local government this year.

Tra bod y fformwla newydd yn sicrhau dosbarthiad tecach o’r arian sydd ar gael, ni all roi sylw i’r broblem fwyaf sylfaenol, sef bod y gronfa arian a ddyrennir i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn dal yn rhy fychan. Mae Plaid Cymru yn galw am gynnydd sylweddol yn y swm cyffredinol o arian sydd ar gael i lywodraeth leol eleni.

We support amendment 4 in the name of Peter Black. The amount made available to each local authority should be sufficient to keep council tax rises below the level of inflation this year.

Cefnogwn welliant 4 yn enw Peter Black. Dylai’r swm sydd ar gael i bob awdurdod lleol fod yn ddigon i gadw unrhyw gynnydd yn y dreth gyngor o dan lefel chwyddiant eleni.

We support amendment 5 in the name of David Davies. We do not support amendment 6 in his name, as it is too prescriptive. A further challenge for this Assembly is to communicate the reason and nature of the changes to the people of Wales. An important part of the National Assembly’s work should be to facilitate wider understanding of the issues and procedures in local government finance. If we are serious about open government, more effort should be made to explain the means by which a third of the Government’s finances are allocated.

Cefnogwn welliant 5 yn enw David Davies. Ni chefnogwn welliant 6 yn ei enw gan ei fod yn rhy orchmynnol. Her arall i’r Cynulliad hwn yw datgan rheswm a natur y newidiadau wrth bobl Cymru. Fel rhan bwysig o waith y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol dylid hyrwyddo dealltwriaeth ehangach o’r materion a’r gweithdrefnau oddi mewn i gyllid llywodraeth leol. Os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch llywodraeth agored, dylid gwneud mwy o ymdrech i esbonio sut y caiff traean o gyllid y Llywodraeth ei ddyrannu.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 34

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose amendment 4. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

Peter Black (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Peter Black (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I declare an interest as a member of Swansea City and County Council. It was inevitable that whatever the outcome of this review, there would be protests and controversy. Although it is right that we should seek to redress the balance and ensure that those councils with the greatest levels of deprivation receive a proper slice of the cake, the fundamental problem is that the outcome of any change in the funding formula is to shuffle the same sum of money around in a different way. There were always going to be winners and losers. However, it is when we look at who the losers are that the nagging questions start to creep in about this new formula. Bridgend, Flintshire, Wrexham, Torfaen and Cardiff all have significant areas of deprivation while the likes of Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Monmouthshire, Powys and the Vale of Glamorgan have significant extra costs in delivering services because of their rural nature. Is the balance between sparsity and deprivation in this new formula the correct one? Furthermore—

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Yr oedd yn anochel, beth bynnag fyddai canlyniad yr adolygiad hwn, y ceid protestiadau a dadlau. Er ei bod yn iawn inni geisio cywiro’r cydbwysedd a sicrhau bod y cynghorau hynny sydd â’r lefelau amddifadedd uchaf yn cael tafell briodol o’r gacen, y broblem sylfaenol, o ganlyniad i unrhyw newid i’r fformwla cyllid, yw mai cymysgu’r un swm o arian o amgylch mewn ffordd wahanol a wneir. Ceir wastad enillwyr a chollwyr. Fodd bynnag, yr adeg pan ddechreuwn edrych ar bwy yw’r collwyr yw pryd y dechreua’r cwestiynau di-baid ddod i’r amlwg am y fformwla newydd hon. Mae ym Mhen-y-Bont ar Ogwr, Sir y Fflint, Wrecsam, Torfaen a Chaerdydd ardaloedd o amddifadedd difrifol tra bod gan ardaloedd fel Sir Gaerfyrddin, Ceredigion, Mynwy, Powys a Bro Morgannwg gostau ychwanegol sylweddol am ddarparu gwasanaethau oherwydd eu natur wledig. Ai’r cydbwysedd a geir rhwng teneurwydd ac amddifadedd yn y fformwla newydd hon yw’r cydbwysedd cywir? At hynny—

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Will you take an intervention by Brian Gibbons?

A gymerwch ymyriad gan Brian Gibbons?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 35

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

No.

Na wnaf.

Furthermore, is the analysis of deprivation sophisticated enough to pick out the cost of servicing small areas of extreme poverty in an otherwise relatively better off area? Bridgend, for example, has a number of wards in the top 15 most deprived wards in Wales. Yet it loses £7 per head of standard spending assessment because of deprivation factors.

At hynny, a yw’r dadansoddiad o amddifadedd yn ddigon soffistigedig i sylwi ar y gost o wasanaethu ardaloedd bychain tlawd ddifrifol mewn ardal sydd fel arall yn gymharol gefnog? Mae gan Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr, er enghraifft, nifer o wardiau sydd ymhlith 15 o wardiau mwyaf amddifadus Cymru. Ond eto, mae’n colli £7 y pen o’r asesiad gwariant safonol oherwydd ffactorau amddifadedd.

When we look at the pen pictures for each local council, we can see that adjustments have been made for rurality. Powys, for example, has received an extra £9 per head of SSA to compensate it for the cost of delivering services in a largely rural area. Monmouthshire has received an extra £20 per head of SSA for the same reason. In both cases, however, these increases have been offset by larger decreases for deprivation. There is no doubt that in comparative terms, both of these areas are less deprived than Neath Port Talbot, Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tydfil or Rhondda Cynon Taff. However, they have legitimate grievances against this formula, which we cannot ignore. The distribution sub-group must revisit the reduction in sparsity factors from 8 per cent to 6 per cent during the consultation period.

Pan edrychwn ar yr ysgrif-ddarluniau ar gyfer pob cyngor, gwelwn y gwnaethpwyd newidiadau ar gyfer gwledigrwydd. Mae Powys, er enghraifft, wedi derbyn £9 y pen yn ychwanegol o’r asesiad gwariant sylfaenol i wneud iawn iddi am y gost o gyflwyno gwasanaethau mewn ardal sydd yn wledig i raddau helaeth. Mae Mynwy wedi derbyn £20 y pen yn ychwanegol o’r asesiad gwariant sylfaenol am yr un rheswm. Yn y ddau achos, fodd bynnag, gwrthbwyswyd y cynnydd hwn gan ostyngiadau mwy ar gyfer amddifadedd. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth, o’u cymharu, fod y ddwy ardal hon yn llai amddifadus na Chastell-nedd Port Talbot, Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tudful neu Rondda Cynon Taf. Fodd bynnag, mae ganddynt gwynion dilys yn erbyn y fformwla hon, cwynion na allwn eu hanwybyddu. Rhaid i’r is-grŵp dosbarthu droi drachefn at y gostyngiad mewn ffactorau teneurwydd o 8 y cant i 6 y cant yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori.

Local government in Wales is underfunded. For far too long, vital services such as cleansing, road maintenance and waste disposal have struggled with inadequate resources. Council tax rises of over 10 per cent last year were accompanied by cuts in a number of services. It is clear that we cannot expect councils to lose out again because of changes in the funding formula. I welcome indications from the Assembly Secretary that there will be a transitional relief scheme. It is essential that this scheme is funded from additional money and not top-sliced from the revenue support grant as happened last year.

Mae llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn dioddef o ddiffyg cyllid. Am lawer yn rhy hir, mae gwasanaethau holl bwysig megis glanhau, cynnal a chadw ffyrdd a gwaredu gwastraff wedi ymlafnio gydag adnoddau annigonol. Ochr yn ochr â chynnydd o 10 y cant yn y dreth gyngor y llynedd gwelwyd toriadau mewn nifer o wasanaethau. Mae’n amlwg na allwn ddisgwyl i gynghorau fod ar eu colled eto oherwydd y newidiadau i’r fformwla gyllido. Croesawaf arwyddion gan Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad y bydd cynllun lliniaru dros dro. Mae’n hanfodol y caiff y cynllun hwn ei gyllido o arian ychwanegol ac na frig-dorrir yr arian o’r grant cefnogi refeniw fel a ddigwyddodd y llynedd.

The Liberal Democrats believe that a transitional relief scheme is not enough. We wish to see a general uprating of the resources given to local councils next year so that nobody loses out as a result of the new formula and council tax rises next year are limited to the rate of inflation. After two decades of financial pressure and excessive council tax increases, we owe this to Welsh council tax payers and to local councils.

Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol nad yw cynllun lliniaru dros dro yn ddigon. Yr ydym am weld yr adnoddau a roddir i gynghorau lleol y flwyddyn nesaf yn cael eu huwchraddio’n gyffredinol fel nad oes neb ar ei golled yn sgîl y fformwla newydd ac yr ydym am i’r cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor gael ei gyfyngu i gyfradd chwyddiant. Ar ôl dau ddegawd o bwysau ariannol a chynnydd gormodol yn y dreth gyngor, mae arnom hyn i dalwyr y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru ac i gynghorau lleol.

I will finish by looking briefly at the amendments. The Liberal Democrats will vote for all six amendments. The technical issues raised by Janet Ryder and Phil Williams need to be tackled by the distribution sub-group. I hope also that the implementation group set up by the Welsh Consultative Forum on Local Government Finance will also tackle recommendation 21of the University of Wales Swansea study in relation to the gearing effect. This has had a punitive impact on council tax payers and needs to be reviewed. It has hit council tax payers in Wales harder than those in England because of the higher proportion of council revenue that is made up of grant in Wales. We need to find mechanisms to ameliorate that effect.

Yr wyf am orffen drwy edrych yn fyr ar y gwelliannau. Bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn pleidleisio o blaid y chwe gwelliant. Bydd yn rhaid i’r is-grŵp dosbarthu fynd i’r afael â’r materion technegol a godwyd gan Janet Ryder a Phil Williams. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd y grŵp gweithredu a ffurfiwyd gan Fforwm Ymgynghorol Cymru ar Gyllid Llywodraeth Leol hefyd yn mynd i’r afael ag argymhelliad 21 yn astudiaeth Prifysgol Cymru Abertawe yng nghyswllt effaith y geriad. Mae hyn wedi cosbi talwyr y dreth gyngor a rhaid ei adolygu. Mae wedi taro talwyr y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru yn galetach na’r rheini yn Lloegr oherwydd daw cyfran uwch o refeniw cynghorau drwy arian grant yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni daro ar beirianweithiau i leddfu’r effaith hon.

The message in the amendment is clear. While a majority in this Chamber support reform of the way that local government is funded, there is a great deal of disquiet about the proposals with which we are presented today. We expect those concerns to be taken on board so that when the distribution sub-group reports in October on the outcome of consultation, significant changes will have been made. If that is not the case, I will be surprised if it commands a majority at that time.

Mae’r neges yn y gwelliant yn glir. Tra bod mwyafrif yn y Siambr hon yn cefnogi newid yn y modd y cyllidir llywodraeth leol, ceir llawer iawn o anniddigrwydd gyda’r cynigion a gyflwynir ger ein bron heddiw. Disgwyliwn i’r pryderon hyn gael sylw er mwyn gweld, pan adrodda’r is-grŵp dosbarthu ym mis Hydref ar ganlyniad yr ymgynghoriad, y bydd newidiadau sylweddol wedi digwydd. Os nad felly y bydd pethau, byddai’n fy synnu pe byddai’n hawlio mwyafrif bryd hynny.

David Davies spoken in English p. 37

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose amendment 5. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 37

David Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose amendment 6. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 37

David Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

There was uproar across Wales last year at the council tax settlement that was brought in by the Assembly. The settlement was particularly unfair on well-run and efficient local authorities while underperforming authorities, which had been Labour run for decades, were apparently rewarded for their profligacy. That is history, but at the time we were told that it was the result of an unfair formula and that a newer, fairer formula would soon be produced. We were led to believe that the new formula would take account of the higher costs of providing services in rural areas and, by implication, would mean that more money was available for providing services in rural areas. That impression was continuously reinforced at committee meetings, briefings and even at the start of last Monday’s presentation in Llandrindod Wells. I can hardly describe my anger and disgust when a closer reading of the figures in this document showed that the weighting given to rurality had fallen from 8 per cent to 6 per cent. In spite of all the problems that rural areas are currently facing—largely as a result of this Government—a formula has been drawn up that will reduce the support that they receive. Assurances about asking the distribution sub-group to have another look at this are not good enough. We have been given assurances before. That fact alone is enough to ensure that the Conservative Party will do everything in its power to overturn this formula and to get a fairer settlement.

Cafwyd twrw ar draws Cymru y llynedd oherwydd setliad y dreth gyngor a gyflwynwyd gan y Cynulliad. Yr oedd y setliad yn arbennig o annheg ar awdurdodau lleol effeithlon a threfnus tra bod awdurdodau sy’n tanberfformio ac a fu dan ofal Llafur am ddegawdau yn cael eu gwobrwyo, i bob golwg, am eu hafradlonrwydd. Mae hyn yn hen hanes, ond ar y pryd, dywedwyd wrthym y digwyddodd hyn o ganlyniad i fformwla annheg ac y byddai fformwla decach, fwy newydd yn cael ei llunio’n fuan. Cawsom ein harwain i gredu y byddai’r fformwla newydd yn rhoi ystyriaeth i’r costau uwch o ddarparu gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac, o’r herwydd, y byddai’n golygu bod rhagor o arian ar gael i ddarparu gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Atgyfnerthwyd yr argraff honno yn barhaus mewn cyfarfodydd pwyllgor, cyfarfodydd briffio a hyd yn oed ar ddechrau’r cyflwyniad ddydd Llun diwethaf yn Llandrindod. Prin y gallaf ddisgrifio fy nicter a’m diflastod o weld, wrth ddarllen ffigurau’r ddogfen yn fanylach, fod y pwysoliad a roddwyd ar wledigrwydd wedi syrthio o 8 y cant i 6 y cant. Er gwaethaf yr holl broblemau y mae ardaloedd gwledig yn eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd—o ganlyniad i’r Llywodraeth hon yn bennaf—lluniwyd fformwla a fydd yn tocio’r gefnogaeth a gânt. Nid yw cael sicrwydd am ofyn i’r is-grŵp dosbarthu edrych ar hwn eto yn ddigon da. Cawsom sicrwydd o’r blaen. Mae’r ffaith honno yn ddigon i sicrhau y bydd y Blaid Geidwadol yn gwneud popeth o fewn ei gallu i ddymchwel y fformwla hon a sicrhau setliad tecach.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 38

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I agree with you about the pressure in rural areas. Do you agree with me that fuel prices are one of the major pressures and that it was a Conservative Government that introduced the fuel escalator that gave rise to this terrible problem?

Cytunaf gyda chi am y pwysau mewn ardaloedd gwledig. A gytunwch gyda mi fod prisiau tanwydd yn un o’r prif bwysau ac mai’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol a gyflwynodd y cymal codi prisiau a gychwynnodd y broblem ddifrifol hon?

David Davies spoken in English p. 38

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I am trying to discuss the local government formula, although I am happy to discuss fuel prices. You are trying to divert me. We all know that the situation was different when the Conservatives introduced the escalator. The Labour Party has seen what damage it caused. We are not here to talk about fuel tax. I am surprised that the Liberal Party is trying to divert attention away from this debate. Perhaps it is because the party did not have the courage to stand up against this last time.

Yr wyf yn ceisio trafod y fformwla llywodraeth leol, er fy mod yn fodlon trafod prisiau tanwydd. Yr ydych yn ceisio troi cwrs fy nadl. Gŵyr pawb ohonom fod y sefyllfa’n wahanol pan gyflwynodd y Ceidwadwyr y cymal codi prisiau. Mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi gweld y difrod y mae wedi’i achosi. Nid ydym yma i drafod treth danwydd. Mae’n syndod imi fod y Blaid Ryddfrydol yn ceisio troi’r sylw oddi wrth y ddadl hon. Efallai ei bod yn gwneud hyn gan nad oedd gan y blaid y dewrder i sefyll yn erbyn hyn y tro o’r blaen.

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Will you accept an intervention from Michael German? It is a point of order regarding the name of the party.

A dderbyniwch ymyriad gan Michael German? Pwynt o drefn ydyw am enw’r blaid.

David Davies spoken in English p. 38

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

No, I will not accept an intervention from the Liberal Party of Wales or whatever it is called.

Na, ni dderbyniaf ymyriad gan Blaid Ryddfrydol Cymru neu beth bynnag yw ei henw.

The false assurances are not the only reason why we are dissatisfied. Questions need to be asked about other aspects of this formula if we are to have any confidence in the process. A key aim of the new settlement is to ensure that the most deprived areas of Wales receive extra help. This is a laudable aim, which the Conservative Party supports. However, during the presentation, we were given the impression that one of the key methods used to determine deprivation was to calculate the number of benefit claimants within a given area. This alone, or even as a major part of developing the formula, would not give an accurate picture.

Nid y ffug sicrwydd yw’r unig reswm am ein hanfodlonrwydd. Rhaid codi cwestiynau am agweddau eraill ar y fformwla hon os ydym i gael unrhyw hyder yn y broses. Un o nodau allweddol y setliad newydd yw sicrhau bod ardaloedd mwyaf amddifadus Cymru yn cael cymorth ychwanegol. Mae hwn yn nod clodfawr y mae’r Blaid Geidwadol yn ei gefnogi. Fodd bynnag, yn ystod y cyflwyniad, cawsom yr argraff mai un dull allweddol o bennu amddifadedd oedd cyfrifo nifer yr unigolion sydd yn hawlio budd-daliadau mewn ardal benodol. Ni fyddai hyn ar ei ben ei hun, neu hyd yn oed fel rhan fawr o ddatblygu’r fformwla, yn rhoi darlun cwbl gywir.

In many rural areas, people have seen their income plummet. Recent figures show that the income of many upland sheep farmers is the same, or even less, than that of many people in the cities who live on benefits. However, because they have the guts to try to scrape a living without becoming a burden to the state, under this formula they are considered to be less worthy of help. That is an unacceptable situation. We ask that deprivation be looked at in the widest possible context. I will give way to Brian Gibbons because we might get some sense from the Labour Party, which is sadly lacking from the Liberals today. [LIBERAL DEMOCRAT ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]

Mewn nifer o ardaloedd gwledig, mae pobl wedi gweld eu hincwm yn plymio. Dengys ffigurau diweddar fod incwm llawer o’r ffermwyr defaid tir uchel yr un fath, neu’n llai hyd yn oed, na llawer o bobl yn y dinasoedd sy’n byw ar fudd-daliadau. Fodd bynnag, gan fod ganddynt y plwc i grafu bywoliaeth heb fynd yn fwrn ar y wladwriaeth, ystyrir eu bod, dan y fformwla hon, yn llai teilwng o gymorth. Mae hon yn sefyllfa annerbyniol. Gofynnwn i amddifadedd gael ei ystyried yn y cyd-destun ehangaf posibl. Ildiaf i Brian Gibbons oherwydd efallai y cawn synnwyr gan y Blaid Lafur, sydd yn anffodus yn brin gan y Rhyddfrydwyr heddiw. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD Y DEMOCRATIAID RHYDDFRYDOL: ‘O.’]

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Order. I ask the Member to reconsider that remark in light of the protocol on conduct in the Chamber and to refer to parties by their full names, as is the practice from this Chair.

Trefn. Gofynnaf i’r Aelod ailystyried y sylwadau hyn yng ngoleuni’r protocol ar ymddygiad yn y Siambr a chyfeirio at y pleidiau gerfydd eu henwau llawn, fel yr arferiad o’r Gadair hon.

David Davies spoken in English p. 39

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I believe that the party is called the Liberal Democrat Party of Wales. The name apparently changes every few years. I will give way to Brian Gibbons.

Credaf mai enw’r blaid yw Plaid Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru. Ymddengys fod yr enw yn newid bob ychydig o flynyddoedd. Ildiaf i Brian Gibbons.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 39

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

There is no point.

Nid oes unrhyw bwynt.

David Davies spoken in English p. 39

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

At the same time as looking at how deprivation is calculated, we would like to look at why certain areas appear to need much more money than others. The officials talked last week about what they called organisational efficiency. When this civil service jargon was translated, it referred to the fact that some councils are more efficient than others. This salient point was also referred to in papers that members of the Partnership Council received yesterday. As far as the Government of Wales is concerned, the question of whether or not councils are efficient has become a taboo subject—in local government terms it is the issue that dare not speak its name. That lack of efficiency is affecting us all. If underperforming councils are wasting money, that means less money for efficient councils. I am unclear as to whether or not that is built into the formula, but it was certainly considered. We have a right to know which councils are inefficient, in which areas they are inefficient and how much their inefficiency is costing the rest of us. At least this would give us the opportunity to help them mend their ways.

Ar yr un pryd ag edrych ar sut y cyfrifir amddifadedd, hoffem edrych ar pam yr ymddengys fod ar rai ardaloedd angen llawer mwy o arian nag eraill. Siaradodd y swyddogion yr wythnos diwethaf am yr hyn a alwasent yn effeithlonrwydd trefniadol. O gyfieithu’r jargon gwasanaeth sifil hwn, cyfeiriai at y ffaith fod rhai cynghorau yn fwy effeithiol nag eraill. Cyfeiriwyd at y pwynt amlycaf hwn hefyd mewn papurau a gafodd aelodau’r Cyngor Partneriaeth ddoe. O ran Llywodraeth Cymru, mae’r cwestiwn a yw cynghorau’n effeithlon ai peidio bellach yn destun gwaharddedig—mewn termau llywodraeth leol dyma’r mater na feiddir yngan ei enw. Mae’r diffyg effeithlonrwydd hwn yn effeithio arnom i gyd. Os yw cynghorau sydd yn tanberfformio yn gwastraffu arian, golyga hynny fod cynghorau effeithlon yn cael llai o arian. Nid wyf yn sicr a gynhwyswyd hyn yn y fformwla ai peidio, ond fe’i hystyriwyd yn bendant. Mae gennym hawl i wybod pa gynghorau sydd yn aneffeithlon, ym mha feysydd y maent yn aneffeithlon a faint y mae eu haneffeithlonrwydd yn ei gostio i’r gweddill ohonom. Byddai hyn, o leiaf, yn rhoi’r cyfle inni eu helpu i ddiwygio’u hymddygiad.

Finally, in support of some of Janet Ryder’s earlier comments, it is disappointing that we have not been given adequate time to discuss this half-baked settlement. If these proposals are brought in—

Yn olaf, i gefnogi rhai o sylwadau Janet Ryder yn gynharach, mae’n siomedig na chawsom ddigon o amser i drafod y setliad hanner cras hwn. Os gweithredir y cynigion hyn—

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 40

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Do you agree that this is the start of the consultation process, although the Conservatives did not consult much when they were in power? Do you agree that we should not formally present anything as our statement but that we should go to our councils, talk with them and allow them to respond through proper and open consultation?

A gytunwch mai dyma ddechrau’r broses ymgynghori, er na fu i’r Ceidwadwyr ymgynghori rhyw lawer pan oeddent mewn grym? A gytunwch na ddylem gyflwyno unrhyw beth yn ffurfiol fel ein datganiad ond y dylem fynd at ein cynghorau, siarad gyda hwy a gadael iddynt ymateb drwy ymgynghoriad priodol ac agored?

David Davies spoken in English p. 40

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

That is precisely my point. We would like plenty of time to speak to our councils, which is why we are upset to have been given eight weeks before the beginning of the peak holiday season. I believe strongly in consultation. I do not feel quite as strongly as the Labour Party does; its ‘Communities First’ document will be in one form of consultation or another until next April before they do anything about it. We have only seven weeks to change this formula—

Dyna yn union yw fy mhwynt. Hoffem gael digon o amser i siarad gyda’n cynghorau, a dyna pam yr ydym yn anhapus ein bod wedi cael wyth wythnos cyn dechrau’r tymor gwyliau prysur. Credaf yn gryf mewn ymgynghori. Ni theimlaf mor gryf ag y gwna’r Blaid Lafur; ymgynghorir ar ei dogfen ‘Cymunedau’n Gyntaf’ ar un ffurf neu’r llall tan fis Ebrill nesaf cyn y gwnânt unrhyw beth yn ei gylch. Saith wythnos yn unig sydd gennym i newid y fformwla hon—

Ann Jones a gododd—

Ann Jones rose—

David Davies spoken in English p. 40

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I am not giving way again. We have seven weeks to change this formula. It is one of the most crucial formulas that we have had in Wales for a long time. We will be stuck with it for many years to come, which brings me on to another point.

Nid wyf yn ildio eto. Mae gennym saith wythnos i newid y fformwla hon. Dyma un o’r fformwlâu mwyaf tyngedfennol a gawsom yng Nghymru ers amser maith. Bydd gyda ni am flynyddoedd lawer, ac mae hyn yn dod â mi at bwynt arall.

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Will you accept an intervention from Pauline Jarman?

A dderbyniwch ymyriad gan Pauline Jarman?

David Davies spoken in English p. 40

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Yes.

Gwnaf.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 40

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Is it your motive to avoid a repetition of the worst effect of the Conservative poll tax, which created enormous arrears? The collection rates of local authorities was far worse than they had ever been, and they were forced to employ armies of staff. The poll tax was brought into such disrepute that it was abandoned after three years. Is it your motive to avoid a repetition of that? I declare my interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council.

Ai eich cymhelliad yw osgoi ailadrodd yr effaith waethaf a berodd treth y pen y Ceidwadwyr, treth a greodd ôl-ddyledion anferth? Yr oedd cyfraddau casglu awdurdodau lleol yn llawer gwaeth nag a fuont erioed, ac fe’u gorfodwyd i gyflogi byddinoedd o staff. Cafodd treth y pen enw mor ddrwg fel y rhoddwyd y gorau iddi ar ôl tair blynedd. Ai eich cymhelliad yw osgoi ailadrodd hynny? Datganaf fy muddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf.

David Davies spoken in Welsh and English p. 41

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 41

Perhaps I should have declared an interest as one of the many taxpayers in Monmouthshire who will be hit hard by this new formula. Members in areas that will benefit from this new formula should also declare an interest. Although Pauline Jarman made some rather convoluted points, the question of council tax collection is a good one. Instead of harking back to history, we should ask why there is almost £50 million of unpaid council tax in Wales, most of it emanating from Labour-run local authorities.

yn Saesneg Dylaswn fod wedi datgan buddiant fel un o’r nifer o drethdalwyr ym Mynwy y bydd y fformwla hon yn eu taro’n galed. Dylai aelodau mewn ardaloedd a fydd yn elwa o’r fformwla newydd hon hefyd ddatgan buddiant. Er bod Pauline Jarman wedi gwneud rhai pwyntiau eithaf cymhleth, mae’r cwestiwn am gasglu’r dreth gyngor yn un da. Yn hytrach na rhygnu’n ôl mewn hanes, dylem ofyn pam bod bron i £50 miliwn o dreth y cyngor heb ei dalu yng Nghymru; y rhan fwyaf ohono’n deillio o awdurdodau lleol a redir gan Lafur.

If these proposals are adopted, the effect on council tax in Wales will be catastrophic. At last week’s meeting in Llandrindod Wells, the chairman of the Welsh Local Government Association, Sir Harry Jones, refused to allow officials to answer a question from a councillor on this subject, saying that it was a public meeting and members of the press were present.

yn Saesneg Os derbynnir y cynigion hyn, bydd yr effaith ar y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru yn drychinebus. Yn y cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf yn Llandrindod, bu i gadeirydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, Syr Harry Jones, wrthod â gadael i swyddogion ateb cwestiwn gan gynghorydd ar y mater hwn, gan ddweud ei fod yn gyfarfod cyhoeddus a bod aelodau o’r wasg yn bresennol.

So much for open government from new Labour. We need to know what the effects will be if we are to have a proper consultation process. It is not good enough to be handed a document at the beginning of the holiday season and be expected to ratify it just after the holiday season ends.

yn Saesneg A dyna ichi ddiwedd ar lywodraeth agored gan y Llafur newydd. Yr ydym angen gwybod beth fydd yr effeithiau os ydym am gael proses ymgynghori briodol. Nid yw’n ddigon da cael dogfen yn eich llaw ar ddechrau tymor y gwyliau gan ddisgwyl ichi ei chadarnhau yn union ar ôl diwedd tymor y gwyliau.

Mae’r Blaid Geidwadol eisiau fformwla deg i gynghorau nad ydynt yn gwastraffu arian yng Nghymru. Yr ydym eisiau fformwla deg ar gyfer ardaloedd cefn gwlad, felly pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y fformwla hon hyd nes y bydd un deg i bawb yng Nghymru.

in Welsh The Conservative Party wants a fair formula for councils that are not wasting money in Wales. We want a fair formula for rural areas, therefore we will vote against this formula until there is a fair one for everyone in Wales.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 41

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

I support the motion but I will speak against all the amendments except amendment 3 in the name of Phil Williams. Peter Law mentioned that this matter would inevitably produce winners and losers. However, whether or not there will be losers will depend on the comprehensive spending review next week. It is possible that everyone will be a winner, but that one person will be more of a winner than the other. Talking in terms of winners and losers is premature until we know the results of the comprehensive spending review.

Cefnogaf y cynnig ond siaradaf yn erbyn pob un o’r gwelliannau heblaw am welliant 3 yn enw Phil Williams. Crybwyllodd Peter Law y byddai’r mater hwn yn sicr o esgor ar enillwyr a chollwyr. Fodd bynnag, mae pa un ai a geir collwyr ai peidio yn dibynnu ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yr wythnos nesaf. Mae’n bosibl y bydd pawb yn enillydd, ond y bydd un person yn fwy o enillydd na’r nesaf. Mae siarad yn nhermau enillwyr a chollwyr yn gynamserol nes y gwyddom ganlyniadau’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant.

Last week, during the debate on Communities First, there were many speeches full of rhetoric and warm words. However, it is now make-our-minds-up time. If we are serious about implementing programmes like Communities First, then the inescapable conclusion is that resources must follow good intention. There is no point having good intentions in this Chamber if we are not prepared to match the words with resources, which is what this resolution and the report by the University of Wales Swansea and Pion Economics is about.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, yn ystod y ddadl ar Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, cawsom lawer o areithiau yn llawn rhethreg a geiriau cynnes. Fodd bynnag, yn awr mae’n bryd inni benderfynu. Os ydym o ddifrif am weithredu rhaglenni megis Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, yna’r casgliad anorfod yw bod yn rhaid cael adnoddau i ddilyn bwriadau da. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt cael bwriadau da yn y Siambr hon os nad ydym yn barod i roi adnoddau law yn llaw â’r geiriau; a dyna’n union y mae’r cynnig hwn a’r adroddiad gan Brifysgol Cymru Abertawe a Pion Economics yn ymwneud ag ef.

Those who propose the amendments must recognise that they will undermine the fundamental purpose of the change that the report asserts. They will undermine the greater emphasis that has been placed on social and economic deprivation. In saying that—

Rhaid i’r rheini sydd yn cynnig y gwelliannau gydnabod y byddant yn tanseilio diben sylfaenol y newid y mae’r adroddiad yn ei fynnu. Byddant yn tanseilio’r pwyslais cryfach a roddwyd ar amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd. Wrth ddweud hynny—

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 42

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Does Brian accept that a long period of consultation will enable us to explore some of the flaws in economic deprivation data?

A yw Brian yn derbyn y bydd cyfnod ymgynghori maith yn ein galluogi i archwilio rhai o’r diffygion mewn data amddifadedd economaidd?

I declare an interest as a Cardiff councillor. Cardiff is the biggest loser in terms of deprivation data, which does not stand up to scrutiny. A big reason for that, which has not been taken into account, is that Cardiff is home to a large number of students who are not legally entitled to claim benefit. They are immediately pushed aside and considered the most prosperous of the community when, in fact, they are not only less prosperous on average, but they also do not pay council tax, thereby adding to the city’s burdens. I have already asked for that to be reviewed as part of this process.

Datganaf fuddiant fel cynghorydd yng Nghaerdydd. Caerdydd yw’r collwr mwyaf o safbwynt data amddifadedd, nad yw’n ddilys yn wyneb archwiliad. Un rheswm mawr am hyn, na roddwyd ystyriaeth iddo, yw fod Caerdydd yn gartref i nifer fawr o fyfyrwyr nad ydynt yn gyfreithiol gymwys i hawlio budd-daliadau. Cânt eu gwthio o’r neilltu ar unwaith gan eu hystyried ymhlith unigolion mwyaf ffyniannus y gymuned pan maent, mewn gwirionedd, nid yn unig yn llai ffyniannus ar gyfartaledd, ond nid ydynt ychwaith yn talu’r dreth gyngor, ac maent felly yn ychwanegu at feichiau’r ddinas. Yr wyf eisoes wedi gofyn am i hyn gael ei adolygu fel rhan o’r broses hon.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 43

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Your point is reasonable but we should remember that there are also students in Pontypridd, Neath and Swansea and the last thing we need is for a decision on this to be allowed to drift and drift; it must be resolved this year.

Mae gennych bwynt rhesymol ond dylem gofio y ceir myfyrwyr ym Mhontypridd, Castell-nedd ac Abertawe hefyd a’r peth diwethaf yr ydym ei eisiau yw caniatáu i benderfyniad am hyn lithro fwyfwy; rhaid penderfynu yn ei gylch eleni.

Those who support the amendments, excepting Phil Williams’s amendment 3, must explain where the change in weighting would take place, if those amendments were adopted. Ultimately, the sums must add up to 100 per cent. If Janet Ryder cannot explain where those changes would take place, perhaps Pauline Jarman, Geraint Davies, Helen Mary Jones or Brian Hancock can. There is no point talking about this issue unless we talk the politics of priority.

Rhaid i’r rheini sydd yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau, ac eithrio gwelliant 3 Phil Williams, esbonio ble y byddai’r newid mewn pwysoliad yn digwydd pe mabwysiadid y gwelliannau hyn. Yn y pen draw, rhaid i’r symiau adio i 100 y cant. Os na all Janet Ryder esbonio ym mhle y byddai’r newidiadau hyn yn digwydd, efallai y gall Pauline Jarman, Geraint Davies, Helen Mary Jones neu Brian Hancock wneud hynny. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt mewn siarad am y mater hwn oni bai ein bod yn siarad am wleidyddiaeth blaenoriaethau.

The efficiency and inefficiency of councils is a hoary old chestnut offered by David Davies time and again. I have taken the time to study comparisons between my local authority, Neath Port Talbot, and David Davies’s, Monmouthshire. There is evidence by the Audit Commission on this matter. If David had read the report, he would recall that the commission states that no local authority in Wales is performing wonderfully across the field. Similarly, no local authority is performing dismally. There is no substantive body of evidence to prove David’s assertion that high-spending local authorities represent inefficiency.

Mae effeithlonrwydd ac aneffeithlonrwydd cynghorau yn hen stori a gynigir gan David Davies dro ar ôl tro. Yr wyf wedi cymryd yr amser i astudio’r cymariaethau rhwng fy awdurdod lleol, Castell-nedd Port Talbot, ac awdurdod lleol David Davies, Mynwy. Ceir tystiolaeth gan y Comisiwn Archwilio am y mater hwn. Pe byddai David wedi darllen yr adroddiad, byddai’n cofio y dynoda’r comisiwn nad oes yr un awdurdod lleol yn perfformio’n ardderchog drwyddo draw. Yn yr un modd, nid oes yr un awdurdod lleol yn perfformio’n anobeithiol. Ni cheir corff o dystiolaeth gwirioneddol i brofi haeriad David fod awdurdodau lleol sydd â gwariant uchel yn aneffeithlon.

David Davies spoken in English p. 43

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I have read that report and I know it so well that if Brian Gibbons had it before him, he would notice that the sentence preceding the quote that he used selectively inferred strongly that some local authorities were not performing well. The commission could not name them nor could it state that some authorities performed badly in all areas. The clear indication of that report was that some local authorities perform badly. I suggest that he read out the sentence preceding the one that he just read.

Yr wyf wedi darllen yr adroddiad ac yr wyf mor gyfarwydd ag ef fel, pe byddai’r adroddiad gerbron Brian Gibbons, byddai’n sylwi bod y frawddeg a ddaw o flaen y dyfyniad a ddefnyddiodd yn ddetholus yn awgrymu y ceir rhai awdurdodau lleol nad ydynt yn perfformio’n dda. Ni châi’r comisiwn eu henwi ac ni châi ychwaith nodi bod rhai awdurdodau’n perfformio’n wael ym mhob maes. Yr arwydd clir o’r adroddiad hwn oedd bod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn perfformio’n wael. Awgrymaf ei fod yn darllen y frawddeg sy’n dod cyn yr un a ddarllenodd yn awr.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 43

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Let us deal with my local authority, which has the highest council tax in Wales, and I will judge it against that of Monmouthshire. A higher proportion of children in care in Monmouthshire is moved three or more times a year compared with Neath Port Talbot. Neath Port Talbot council delivers more items of care for people living in the community and there are more library visits per head. There is more expenditure on sport and recreation in Neath Port Talbot. There is 50 per cent more expenditure on public transport and there are higher levels of spending on primary and secondary education. David Davies may say that that reflects inefficiency, but any reasonable person could see from that list of differences that the levels of increased expenditure in those areas are almost an inevitable reflection of the two communities’ varying social and economic needs.

Gadewch inni ddelio â’m hawdurdod lleol i, sydd â threth y cyngor uwch nag unman arall yng Nghymru, ac fe’i dyfarnaf yn erbyn awdurdod lleol Mynwy. Mae cyfran uwch o blant mewn gofal ym Mynwy yn cael ei symud dair gwaith neu fwy y flwyddyn o’i gymharu â Chastell-nedd Port Talbot. Mae cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn cyflwyno mwy o eitemau gofal ar gyfer pobl sy’n byw yn y gymuned a cheir mwy o ymweliadau â’r llyfrgell y pen. Ceir mwy o wariant ar chwaraeon a hamdden yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot. Ceir 50 y cant yn fwy o wariant ar gludiant cyhoeddus a cheir lefelau gwario uwch ar addysg gynradd ac uwchradd. Gallai David Davies ddweud bod hynny’n adlewyrchu aneffeithlonrwydd, ond gallai unrhyw un rhesymol weld o’r rhestr hon o wahaniaethau fod y lefelau gwariant uwch yn y meysydd hyn bron yn adlewyrchiad anorfod o anghenion economaidd a chymdeithasol amrywiol y ddwy gymuned.

Peter Black mentioned gearing and I am glad that recommendation 21 in the report refers to it. The report acknowledges that even the present standard spending assessment can be inaccurate and is an imprecise instrument. Consequently, the estimate of areas of greatest need is most likely to be underestimated. Areas like Neath Port Talbot end up with council tax rates that are 25 per cent higher than those of Cyncoed and Lisvane in Cardiff or even 48 per cent higher than those of Monmouthshire. That is wrong and it must be addressed.

Crybwyllodd Peter Black gerio ac yr wyf yn falch bod argymhelliad 21 yn yr adroddiad yn cyfeirio ato. Mae’r adroddiad yn cydnabod y gallai’r asesiad gwariant safonol presennol fod yn anghywir hyd yn oed a’i fod yn offeryn anfanwl. O’r herwydd, mae’r amcan o’r ardaloedd sydd â’r angen mwyaf yn debygol iawn o fod wedi ei dan-amcanu. Yn y pen draw, mae gan ardaloedd megis Castell-nedd Port Talbot gyfraddau’r dreth gyngor sydd 25 y cant yn uwch na’r cyfraddau yng Nghyncoed a Llys-faen yng Nghaerdydd neu hyd yn oed 48 y cant yn uwch na’r cyfraddau ym Mynwy. Mae hyn yn anghywir a rhaid rhoi sylw iddo.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 44

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Straight after the referendum, Plaid Cymru held a special meeting, and the most memorable contribution was a sentence by Janet Davies. She said that the most important job for the Assembly would be to revise the formula for allocating money to local government. She was right. The old formula is indefensibly bad; it is arbitrary and unfair with no adequate recognition of deprivation or sparsity.

Yn union ar ôl y refferendwm, cynhaliodd Plaid Cymru gyfarfod arbennig, a’r cyfraniad mwyaf cofiadwy oedd brawddeg gan Janet Davies. Dywedodd mai’r gwaith pwysicaf i’r Cynulliad fyddai adolygu’r fformwla ar gyfer dyrannu arian i lywodraeth leol. Yr oedd hi’n iawn. Mae’r hen fformwla yn anghyfiawnadwy o wael; mae’n fympwyol ac yn annheg ac ni rydd gydnabyddiaeth ddigonol i amddifadedd na phrinder.

The University of Wales Swansea and Pion Economics recommend a new formula that uses a mathematical technique called regression to estimate objectively the relationship between need in a county and the corresponding cost of providing a service.

Argymhellodd Prifysgol Cymru Abertawe a Pion Economics fformwla newydd sy’n defnyddio techneg fathemategol o’r enw atchweliad i amcangyfrif yn wrthrychol y berthynas rhwng angen mewn sir a’r gost gyfatebol o ddarparu gwasanaeth.

What is regression? That is a question that I recall asking first in 1958. Take some graph paper and add a point for each council where cost is plotted against need. You end up with 22 separate points showing how costs tend to increase with increased need. Regression is a standard way of fitting a straight line to represent the average trend. The 22 points will be scattered around the line. A point above the line indicates large discretionary budgets or inefficiency and a point below indicates a reluctance to spend or high efficiency. The overall trend is then established. I said that it was a standard method—it is not quite as simple as that. There are in fact three ways of doing regression. Some of the regressions may have been chosen in the wrong way. Therefore, although this is more objective than the present formula, there are subjective decisions built in. Even more important are the decisions on the indicators of need, because many of these are closely related. There are 17 indices of deprivation included in the proposed formula. Areas with high unemployment also have low average wages, high levels of income support, free school meals and a high proportion of people with ill-health. We could plot the cost of social services or education against any one of these and get a trend, but in the end we must select combinations of factors to produce the index of need—combinations referred to as principal components.

Beth yw atchweliad? Mae hwn yn gwestiwn y cofiaf fy hun yn ei ofyn i ddechrau yn 1958. Cymerwch bapur graff ac ychwanegu pwynt ar gyfer pob cyngor lle caiff costau eu plotio yn erbyn angen. Yn y diwedd bydd gennych 22 o bwyntiau ar wahân yn dangos sut y mae costau’n dueddol o gynyddu gydag angen cynyddol. Mae atchweliad yn ffordd sylfaenol o osod llinell syth i gynrychioli’r tuedd cyfartalog. Bydd y 22 pwynt wedi eu gwasgaru o amgylch y llinell. Dynoda’r pwyntiau uwchben y llinell gyllidebau dewisol mawr neu aneffeithlonrwydd a dynoda’r pwyntiau islaw amharodrwydd i wario neu effeithlonrwydd uchel. Yna pennir y tuedd cyffredinol. Dywedais mai dull safonol ydyw—nid yw mor syml â hynny mewn gwirionedd. Yn wir, ceir tair ffordd o wneud atchweliad. Gallai rhai o’r atchweliadau fod wedi cael eu dewis yn y ffordd anghywir. Felly, er bod hyn yn fwy gwrthrychol na’r fformwla bresennol, mae’n cynnwys penderfyniadau goddrychol. Mae’r penderfyniadau am y dangosyddion angen yn bwysicaf fyth, gan fod llawer o’r rhain yn perthyn yn glòs. Cynhwysir 17 o fynegeion amddifadedd yn y fformwla arfaethedig. Mae gan ardaloedd sydd â diweithdra uchel hefyd gyflogau cyfartalog isel, lefelau uchel o gymhorthdal incwm, prydau ysgol am ddim a chyfran uchel o bobl gyda gwaeledd. Gallem blotio cost y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol neu addysg yn erbyn unrhyw un o’r rhain a chael tuedd, ond yn y pen draw rhaid inni ddewis cyfuniadau o ffactorau i gynhyrchu’r mynegai angen—cyfeirir at y cyfuniadau fel prif gydrannau.

There is a way of calculating principal components objectively and mathematically but it requires far more data than we have at present. Choosing the need indicators for each budget item could be almost as arbitrary as the weighting factors in the present formula. One answer is to ensure that there is independence in deciding the principal components. The index of deprivation to be published soon by a group in Oxford will provide an extremely valuable principal component.

Ceir ffordd o gyfrifo prif gydrannau yn wrthrychol ac yn fathemategol ond mae gofyn cael llawer iawn rhagor o ddata nag sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Gallai dewis y dangosyddion angen ar gyfer pob eitem yn y gyllideb bron fod mor fympwyol â’r ffactorau pwysoli yn y fformwla bresennol. Un ateb yw sicrhau y ceir annibyniaeth wrth benderfynu ar y prif gydrannau. Bydd y mynegai amddifadedd a gyhoeddir yn fuan gan grŵp yn Rhydychen yn brif gydran werthfawr dros ben.

There is a similar problem on the technical question of sparsity in rural areas. The new formula uses seven different indices of population dispersion. As a result, there is a much better focusing of resources to dispersed areas but the choice of index again introduces some arbitrary factor. The population threshold is sometimes 1,000, sometimes 5,000, sometimes 7,500, and sometimes—in one case—40,000. It is more significant to realise why the sparsity allocation has been cut from 8 per cent to 6 per cent. There are several—10, I believe—budget headings where the consultants recommended an allowance for sparsity, but the new formula has not built these in. The reasons given are either lack of statistical data or the fact that there may be alternative indicators. We need to consider this carefully. Of those 10, the four that I would pick out would be: youth services, adult social services, elderly care and library services, where it is almost self-evident that the cost per head in rural areas for providing a standard level of service would be more—

Ceir problem debyg gyda’r cwestiwn technegol o brinder mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Defnyddia’r fformwla newydd saith o fynegeion gwahanol ar gyfer gwasgariad y boblogaeth. O ganlyniad, caiff adnoddau eu canoli yn well ar ardaloedd gwasgaredig ond mae’r dewis o fynegai eto yn cyflwyno ffactor mympwyol. Weithiau, mae’r trothwy poblogaeth yn 1,000, weithiau’n 5,000, weithiau’n 7,500, ac weithiau—mewn un achos—yn 40,000. Mae’n bwysicach sylweddoli pam fod dyraniad teneurwydd wedi ei dorri o 8 y cant i 6 y cant. Ceir nifer o benawdau i’r gyllideb—10, yr wyf yn credu—lle mae’r ymgynghorwyr yn argymell lwfans ar gyfer teneurwydd, ond nid yw’r fformwla newydd wedi cynnwys y rhain. Y rhesymau a roddir yw naill ai diffyg data ystadegol neu’r ffaith y gellid cael dangosyddion amgen. Rhaid inni ystyried hyn yn ofalus. O’r 10 hynny, y pedwar y buaswn yn eu dewis fyddai: gwasanaethau ieuenctid, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i oedolion, gofal yr henoed a gwasanaethau llyfrgell, lle mae bron yn amlwg ohono’i hun y byddai’r gost y pen mewn ardaloedd gwledig am ddarparu lefel gwasanaeth safonol yn uwch—

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Phil, will you take an intervention from behind the pillar, from Huw Lewis?

Phil, a gymerwch ymyriad o du ôl i’r piler, gan Huw Lewis?

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 46

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Yes. I am sorry, Huw.

Gwnaf. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Huw.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 46

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Thank you Phil. I do not expect even you to be able to see through walls. Is it not the case, Phil, that you have just proved that sparsity as an important or overriding factor in these issues does not exist? Is it not the case that it has been thrown out by the Scottish Parliament in terms of their NHS allocation formula, because the evidence was not there, and that Pion Economics and the University of Wales, Swansea, have similarly downgraded it as a factor? Sparsity in itself does not indicate deprivation. How can it? If it did, the Balmoral estate would be receiving Red Cross parcels from the Highlands and Islands Council in Scotland.

Diolch i chi Phil. Ni ddisgwyliaf i chi, hyd yn oed, allu gweld drwy waliau. Onid yw’n wir, Phil, eich bod newydd brofi nad yw teneurwydd, fel ffactor pwysig neu holl bwysig yn y materion hyn, yn bodoli? Onid ydyw’n wir ei fod wedi cael ei daflu allan gan Senedd yr Alban o safbwynt ei fformwla dyrannu ar gyfer yr NHS, gan nad oedd tystiolaeth i’w chael, a bod Pion Economics a Phrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe, yn yr un modd, wedi ei israddio fel ffactor? Nid yw teneurwydd ynddo’i hun yn dynodi amddifadedd. Sut y gall wneud hynny? Pe byddai, byddai ystad Balmoral yn derbyn parseli’r Groes Goch oddi wrth Gyngor yr Ucheldir a’r Ynysoedd yn yr Alban.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 46

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I am not degrading the overriding importance of deprivation. I am saying that this is a mathematical way of assessing the genuine extra costs of providing a standard level of service in a rural area. We must take into account unmet need as well as extra sparsity costs.

Nid wyf yn israddio holl bwysigrwydd amddifadedd. Dywedaf mai ffordd fathemategol yw hon o asesu’r costau ychwanegol gwirioneddol o ddarparu lefel gwasanaeth sylfaenol mewn ardal wledig. Rhaid inni ystyried angen heb ei ddiwallu yn ogystal â chostau ychwanegol teneurwydd.

Plaid Cymru is simply asking in amendments 1, 2 and 3 that these should be considered. The report itself states that there are reasons why the recommendations were not put on.

Yr cyfan y mae Plaid Cymru yn gofyn amdano yng ngwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yw y dylid edrych ar y rhain. Dynoda’r adroddiad ei hun y ceir rhesymau pam na chynhwyswyd yr argymhellion.

My final point explains my amendment 3. I have already said that there are good reasons why we need more data, but there is one factor that could allow an important improvement in the formula, especially in the allocation for deprivation. The consultants recommended—I am sorry for this jargon—hierarchical regression. They were concerned that the figures from a single county might combine areas of great prosperity with areas of great deprivation. Cardiff is perhaps the extreme example; we have already heard reference to Bridgend. If we had reliable data on a scale smaller than the county and, in some cases on a ward basis, it would be possible to make a fairer assessment. We could make a better selection of principal components and do better regression, which would be particularly important if, beyond a certain level of deprivation, the cost of providing a service increases sharply. All this requires more data and, unfortunately, the full set is not available, as we know. I understand from the meeting in Llandrindod Wells that only four councils have the full set—

Mae fy mhwynt terfynol yn esbonio fy ngwelliant 3. Dywedais eisoes y ceir rhesymau da pam y mae arnom angen rhagor o ddata, ond ceir un ffactor a allai ganiatáu gwelliant pwysig yn y fformwla, yn enwedig yn y dyraniad ar gyfer amddifadedd. Argymhellodd yr ymgynghorwyr—ymddiheuraf am y jargon hwn—atchweliad hierarchaidd. Yr oeddent yn pryderu y gallai ffigurau o un sir gyfuno ardaloedd ffyniannus iawn gydag ardaloedd amddifadus iawn. Caerdydd, efallai, yw’r enghraifft eithaf; clywsom eisoes gyfeiriad at Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr. Pe byddai gennym ddata dibynadwy ar raddfa lai na’r sir ac, mewn rhai achosion, fesul ward, byddai modd gwneud asesiad tecach. Gallem wneud gwell detholiad o brif gydrannau a gwneud gwell atchweliad, a fyddai’n hynod o bwysig pe byddai’r gost o ddarparu gwasanaeth yn cynyddu’n gyflym y tu hwnt i lefel benodol o amddifadedd. Mae hyn i gyd yn gofyn am ragor o ddata, ac yn anffodus, nid yw’r set gyflawn ar gael, fel y gwyddom. Deallaf o’r cyfarfod yn Llandrindod mai pedwar cyngor yn unig sydd â’r set gyflawn—

John Marek spoken in English p. 47

John Marek siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

We have the data in north-east Wales. It will be one of the submissions from north-east Wales that we have the information. It could be tricky to try to get a comparison between north-east Wales, which has ward information, and the generality of Wales based on a different parameter. However, we should attempt that in order to make the case, because north-east Wales suffers from the same problems from which you say Cardiff suffers.

Mae’r data gennym yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru. Un o’r cyflwyniadau o ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru fydd fod yr wybodaeth gennym. Byddai’n anodd ceisio cael cymhariaeth rhwng gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, sydd â gwybodaeth fesul ward, a chyffrediniaeth Cymru yn seiliedig ar baramedr gwahanol. Fodd bynnag, dylem geisio gwneud hynny er mwyn cyflwyno’r achos, gan fod gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru yn dioddef o’r un problemau â’r problemau y dywedasoch fod Caerdydd yn dioddef ohonynt.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 47

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

That is a good illustration of the problem of inadequate data. Any settlement reached this year should stay unchanged for some years to give stability. However, when the formula is next examined, we must ensure that the necessary data is available because it will properly meet the needs of deprivation in areas like Wrexham.

Mae hynny’n enghraifft dda o’r broblem o ddata annigonol. Dylai unrhyw setliad a geir eleni aros yn ddigyfnewid am rai blynyddoedd er mwyn rhoi sefydlogrwydd. Fodd bynnag, pan archwilir y fformwla nesaf, rhaid inni sicrhau bod y data angenrheidiol ar gael oherwydd y bydd yn diwallu anghenion amddifadedd yn iawn mewn ardaloedd megis Wrecsam.

This is a fine piece of work and I congratulate everyone involved. Our amendments are proposed as a positive contribution to the consultation. The method used is the same one that we will need to derive a fair formula for allocating the health budget and the one that should be used to derive a revised Barnett formula. I started by saying that this is the most important decision that the National Assembly must make. If we get it right—and the signs are good—it will be a triumph for the Assembly. It is a privilege to support this work.

Mae hwn yn ddarn o waith gwych a llongyfarchaf bawb a oedd yn gysylltiedig ag ef. Cynigir ein gwelliannau fel cyfraniad cadarnhaol i’r ymgynghoriad. Mae’r dull a ddefnyddir yr un ag y bydd arnom ei angen i sicrhau fformwla deg ar gyfer dyrannu’r gyllideb iechyd, a’r un y dylid ei ddefnyddio i sicrhau fformwla Barnett ddiwygiedig. Dechreuais drwy ddweud mai hwn yw’r penderfyniad pwysicaf y mae’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei wneud. Os gwnawn hyn yn iawn—ac mae’r arwyddion yn dda—bydd yn llwyddiant i’r Cynulliad. Mae’n fraint cefnogi’r gwaith hwn.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 48

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

I will briefly highlight what I consider is the underlying basis for disagreement between us and the Conservatives about what a formula should be. Perhaps this explains why David Davies looked so angry when he spoke. The basic difference is that as a Labour Party we are in business to promote and achieve social justice, which leads us, as a party and an administration, to look to a formula that gives due recognition to the factors of deprivation. That has never concerned the Conservative Party in Britain and Wales. It has never been concerned about social justice; in fact, quite the reverse. It has been and is still concerned with taking from those who can least afford it and giving to those at the upper end of the socio-economic scale. We saw that most clearly with the poll tax. I am not surprised that David does not want us to go back to the history of the poll tax. However, we all remember it well and its impact on communities that were least able to withstand such an impact.

Tynnaf sylw, yn fyr, at yr hyn y credaf sydd wrth wraidd yr anghytuno rhyngom a’r Ceidwadwyr am yr hyn y dylai fformwla fod. Efallai fod hyn yn esbonio pam yr edrychai David Davies mor ddig pan siaradai. Y gwahaniaeth sylfaenol yw, fel Plaid Lafur, ein bod mewn busnes i hybu a chyflawni cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, sydd yn ein harwain, fel plaid a gweinyddiaeth, i edrych ar fformwla a rydd gydnabyddiaeth ddyledus i’r ffactorau amddifadedd. Nid yw hyn erioed wedi poeni’r Blaid Geidwadol ym Mhrydain a Chymru. Ni phryderodd erioed am gyfiawnder cymdeithasol; yn wir, i’r gwrthwyneb. Bu wastad, ac mae’n dal i ymwneud â chymryd oddi wrth y rheini a all leiaf ei fforddio a rhoi i’r rheini ar ben uchaf y raddfa gymdeithasol-economaidd. Gwelsom hynny gliriaf gyda threth y pen. Ni synnaf nad yw David am inni fynd yn ôl at hanes treth y pen. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym oll yn ei chofio’n dda a’i heffaith ar gymunedau a oedd â’r lleiaf o allu i wrthsefyll effaith o’r fath.

David Davies spoken in English p. 48

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

I did not realise that we were having a history lesson today. Perhaps we could go back to 1979 while we are at it and talk about inflation levels at 26 per cent or the effect of nationalisation on large-scale industries in the 1940s and 1950s. How far back does the Member for Newport East want us to go? I thought we were here to discuss the present affects of this council tax formula on people in rural and other areas across Wales.

Ni sylweddolais ein bod yn cael gwers hanes heddiw. Efallai y gallem fynd yn ôl i 1979 tra ein bod wrthi a siarad am lefelau chwyddiant ar 26 y cant neu effaith gwladoli ar ddiwydiannau mawrion yn ystod y 1940au a’r 1950au. Pa mor bell yn ôl y mae’r Aelod dros Ddwyrain Casnewydd am inni fynd? Credais ein bod yma i drafod effeithiau presennol y fformwla dreth gyngor hon ar bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac ardaloedd eraill ledled Cymru.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 49

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I am not at all surprised that you seek to cloud the issue, David. What I am talking about is relevant to this debate. From the poll tax and its iniquitous affects—for example, people in Westminster, one of the wealthiest parts of Britain, had little or no poll tax to pay—to council tax, this is relevant because we are discussing council tax today. It is because of the Conservatives’ legacy to us that we need to re-examine the position and move on. That is what we are seeking to do in a way that considers deprivation and recognises the need for social justice: a key issue in Wales about which, traditionally, Welsh people have felt strongly and continue to do so. As the true party of Wales, the Labour Party reflects that and is determined to act on it. This is not a history lesson, David, but I am bringing some relevant facts to this debate and trying to understand why you find it so objectionable that we are seeking to address deprivation in Wales as far as the council tax is concerned. There are deprived communities across Wales: in Monmouthshire and Newport. We recognise that and I accept the need to go down—

Ni synnaf o gwbl eich bod yn ceisio tywyllu’r mater, David. Mae’r hyn y siaradaf amdano yn berthnasol i’r ddadl hon. O dreth y pen a’i heffeithiau anghyfiawn—er enghraifft, nid oedd gan bobl Westminster, un o rannau cyfoethocaf Prydain, ond ychydig neu ddim treth y pen i’w thalu—hyd at y dreth gyngor, mae hyn yn berthnasol oherwydd ein bod yn trafod y dreth gyngor heddiw. Etifeddiaeth y Ceidwadwyr inni yw’r rheswm pam y mae’n rhaid inni ailarchwilio’r sefyllfa a symud ymlaen. Dyna beth y ceisiwn ei wneud mewn ffordd sydd yn ystyried amddifadedd ac yn cydnabod yr angen am gyfiawnder cymdeithasol: mater allweddol yng Nghymru y mae pobl Cymru, yn draddodiadol, wedi teimlo’n gryf yn ei gylch ac maent yn dal i deimlo felly. Fel gwir blaid Cymru, mae’r Blaid Lafur yn adlewyrchu hynny ac mae’n benderfynol o weithredu arno. Nid gwers hanes mo hyn, David, ond yr wyf yn dwyn ffeithiau perthnasol i’r ddadl hon ac yn ceisio deall pam y teimlwch fod y ffaith ein bod yn ceisio rhoi sylw i amddifadedd yng Nghymru mor annerbyniol cyn belled ag y bo’r dreth gyngor dan sylw. Ceir cymunedau amddifadus ledled Cymru: ym Mynwy a Chasnewydd. Cydnabyddwn hynny a derbyniaf yr angen i fynd i lawr—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 49

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

To correct John, on the social and economic deprivation map, which we published last week, there was not a single electoral ward in Monmouthshire in the bottom 10 per cent on three indices of social deprivation.

I gywiro John, ar y map amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd, a gyhoeddasom yr wythnos diwethaf, nid oedd un ward etholiadol ym Mynwy ymhlith y 10 y cant isaf ar dri mynegai amddifadedd cymdeithasol.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 49

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

In my experience, wards such as Dewstow in Caldicot have considerable problems. It is sometimes necessary to bring these sorts of statistics down to below ward level. Mapping deprivation is a difficult exercise and it has not been mapped anywhere near where it should be in Wales. I hope that the Assembly addresses that effectively at a future stage. I accept the point that Brian, Huw, Lynne and others make forcibly about the need to recognise where real disadvantage lies in overall terms and across local authority areas. I accept that and the needs of the Valleys’ communities. I will not make points against the need to adequately reflect the Valleys’ needs in the settlement that is reached. There is deprivation across Wales. We must find effective ways through other strategies, which the Assembly will hopefully put in place as part of its social inclusion agenda, to address deprivation in all the communities and pockets within which it exists in Wales.

O’m profiad i, mae gan wardiau megis Llanddewi yng Nghaldicot broblemau difrifol. Weithiau, mae’n ofynnol dod â’r mathau hyn o ystadegau i lawr islaw lefel y wardiau. Mae mapio amddifadedd yn ymarferiad anodd ac ni chafodd ei fapio unrhyw beth yn debyg i’r hyn y dylai fod yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Cynulliad yn rhoi sylw effeithiol i hynny yn y dyfodol. Derbyniaf y pwynt a wna Brian, Huw, Lynne ac eraill yn rymus am yr angen i gydnabod lle ceir gwir anfantais yn gyffredinol ac ar draws ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol. Derbyniaf hynny ac anghenion cymunedau’r Cymoedd. Ni wnaf bwyntiau yn erbyn yr angen i adlewyrchu anghenion y Cymoedd yn ddigonol yn y setliad a geir. Ceir amddifadedd ledled Cymru. Rhaid inni ddarganfod ffyrdd effeithiol drwy strategaethau eraill, y bydd y Cynulliad, gobeithio, yn eu sefydlu fel rhan o’i agenda cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, i roi sylw i amddifadedd yn yr holl gymunedau a’r pocedi y mae’n bodoli oddi mewn iddynt yng Nghymru.

I turn briefly to the idea that there should be convergence between council tax rates in Wales and in England—something that was touched upon earlier. Given that gross domestic product in Wales is much lower than in England, there is a case for council tax rates to reflect that and for seeking to avoid the convergence that is sought and that has been taking place to some extent. It is simply a case of recognising the case for social justice. I hope that we will give due recognition to that and urge Westminster to examine it carefully.

Trof, yn fyr, at y syniad y dylid cael cydgyfeiriad rhwng cyfraddau’r dreth gyngor yng Nghymru ac yn Lloegr—rhywbeth y cyffyrddwyd arno yn gynharach. O gofio bod y cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yng Nghymru yn llawer is nag yn Lloegr, ceir achos i gyfraddau’r dreth gyngor adlewyrchu hynny a cheisio osgoi’r cydgyfeiriad a geisir ac a fu’n digwydd i ryw raddau. Y cyfan ydyw yw mater o gydnabod yr achos dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Gobeithiaf y rhoddwn gydnabyddiaeth ddyledus i hynny ac annog San Steffan i’w archwilio’n ofalus.

As Brian mentioned, the comprehensive spending review will be vital in ensuring that there is enough money available for services across Wales while, at the same time, allowing council tax rates to rest at a level that people will find acceptable. I think that we all know from our communities that people have had enough in Wales. We must recognise that and have an overall settlement that respects people’s tolerance levels.

Fel y crybwyllodd Brian, bydd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yn holl bwysig i sicrhau bod digon o arian ar gael ar gyfer gwasanaethau ar draws Cymru tra, ar yr un pryd, y caniateir i gyfraddau’r dreth gyngor aros ar lefel y bydd pobl yn eu cael yn dderbyniol. Credaf y gwyddwn i gyd oddi wrth ein cymunedau fod pobl wedi cael digon yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod hynny a sicrhau setliad cyffredinol sydd yn parchu lefelau goddefiant pobl.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 50

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

‘Council reeling from second cash shock.’ Did my learned colleague and good friend, David Davies, write this, I wonder? A £2.6 million reduction in Flintshire’s standard spending assessment is on the cards. This is another bitter blow for its economic stability and business confidence. The resentment of what is seen as having to bail out south Wales authorities is still rankling. Having to find a £58 increase in council tax is a heavy burden on Delyn people who are perceived to be well off in comparison with other parts of Wales.

‘Cyngor yn siglo o’r ail ysgytiad ariannol.’ Ai fy nghyd-Aelod dysgedig a’m cyfaill da, David Davies, a ysgrifennodd hwn, tybed? Mae gostyngiad o £2.6 miliwn yn debygol yn asesiad gwariant safonol Sir y Fflint. Mae hyn yn ergyd galed arall i’w sefydlogrwydd economaidd a’i hyder busnes. Mae chwerwder yr hyn a welir fel gorfod achub croen awdurdodau de Cymru yn dal i’w cynddeiriogi. Mae gorfod canfod cynnydd o £58 yn y dreth gyngor yn faich trwm ar bobl Delyn, y credir eu bod yn gefnog o gymharu â rhannau eraill o Gymru.

Delyn people are industrious and have shown themselves to be flexible and adept as they face the changing skills market. Enormous effort has gone into attracting investment and wooing commercial enterprises so that new businesses will start up in the most northern part of Wales. As the proposed settlement stands, our loss in Flintshire will be worse than any other in a north Wales authority. This possible cut of £2.6 million, at a stroke, may send Flintshire back to where it started. The local authority has been addressing for some months its budgetary pressures—

Mae pobl Delyn yn weithgar ac maent wedi dangos eu bod yn hyblyg a medrus yn wyneb y farchnad sgiliau newidiol. Gwnaethpwyd ymdrech anferth i ddenu buddsoddiad ac ennyn mentrau masnachol er mwyn i fusnesau newydd gychwyn yn rhan fwyaf gogleddol Cymru. Fel y saif y setliad arfaethedig, bydd ein colled yn Sir y Fflint yn waeth nag unrhyw awdurdod arall yng ngogledd Cymru. Gallai’r toriad posibl hwn o £2.6 miliwn anfon Sir y Fflint, ar amrantiad, yn ôl i’r man lle y dechreuodd. Bu’r awdurdod lleol yn rhoi sylw i’w bwysau cyllidebol ers rhai misoedd—

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 51

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Are you aware that, if sparsity were looked at again, Flintshire would be one of those councils to gain? Will you therefore support our amendment?

A ydych yn ymwybodol, pe edrychid ar deneurwydd eto, mai Sir y Fflint fyddai un o’r cynghorau hynny a fyddai ar eu hennill? A wnewch felly gefnogi ein gwelliant?

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 51

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Thank you for that intervention. No, I cannot support your amendment. I am speaking for the people of Delyn. In Flintshire, we have lived through months of painful restructuring and it has meant the loss of 126 jobs. Regrettably, £2.6 million is the precise sum of money saved through this challenging reorganisation. It is a cruel irony that we will lose this sum of money having made a saving. It is suggested that Flintshire, and Delyn, is being penalised for being a low spender, a careful steward of public funds. Much good it will do us if this consultation exercise does not afford us a better deal. Shotton steelworks closed down some years ago with, so I am told by my MP, who is well known for his commitment to the Assembly, the greatest redundancy seen in Wales and, possibly, in Europe.

Diolch ichi am yr ymyriad hwnnw. Na, ni allaf gefnogi eich gwelliant. Siaradaf ar ran pobl Delyn. Yn Sir y Fflint, yr ydym wedi byw drwy fisoedd o ad-drefnu poenus ac, o ganlyniad, collwyd 126 o swyddi. Yn anffodus, £2.6 miliwn yw’r union swm o arian a arbedwyd yn sgîl yr her o ad-drefnu. Mae’n eironi creulon y byddwn yn colli’r swm hwn o arian ar ôl sicrhau arbediad. Awgrymir bod Sir y Fflint, a Delyn, yn cael eu cosbi am wariant isel, fel stiward gofalus dros arian cyhoeddus. Ni wnaiff les inni os na fydd yr ymarferiad ymgynghori hwn yn cynnig gwell bargen inni. Caeodd gwaith dur Shotton rai blynyddoedd yn ôl gan achosi, fel y dywedodd fy AS wrthyf, un sy’n adnabyddus am ei ymrwymiad i’r Cynulliad, y diswyddiadau mwyaf a welwyd yng Nghymru ac, o bosibl, yn Ewrop.

We have no large communities in Delyn and thus we lose out on Home Office schemes such as CCTV. We have lost assisted area status and now we are hemmed in by areas that have been awarded Objective 1. We have a rotten rail network and the closure of any large company in our region would send out a clear message to our wealth creating community that north Wales is not the best place to set up, show and grow a business. This could all change with the consultation. I am sure that it will work to the fair advantage of Flintshire. We, in north Wales, must pay for the escalating cost of keeping Cardiff Bay in good order. There is no commitment to the new building, although I voted for it. The possibility of having to dig even deeper in our pockets to pay for more services is something that I would not like to recommend to the people I represent. I have enormous admiration for Peter Law, who has a difficult job. I hope that the consultation period will work. Peter has said that he is working on a transitional scheme. I know that it will not let down the people of Delyn.

Nid oes gennym gymunedau mawr yn Nelyn ac, o’r herwydd, ni chawn fanteisio ar gynlluniau’r Swyddfa Gartref megis systemau teledu cylch-cyfyng. Collasom statws ardal a gynorthwyir ac yn awr cawn ein hamgylchynu gan ardaloedd y dyfarnwyd Amcan 1 iddynt. Mae gennym rwydwaith druenus o reilffyrdd a byddai cau unrhyw gwmni mawr yn ein hardal yn anfon neges glir i’n cymuned creu cyfoeth nad gogledd Cymru yw’r lle gorau i sefydlu, dangos a thyfu busnes. Gallai hyn i gyd newid gyda’r ymgynghoriad. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd yn gweithio er mantais i Sir y Fflint. Rhaid inni, yng ngogledd Cymru, dalu am y gost gynyddol o gadw Bae Caerdydd mewn cyflwr da. Nid oes ymrwymiad i’r adeilad newydd, er imi bleidleisio o’i blaid. Mae’r posibilrwydd o orfod turio’n ddyfnach fyth i’n pocedi i dalu am ragor o wasanaethau yn rhywbeth na hoffwn ei argymell i’r bobl a gynrychiolaf. Edmygaf Peter Law yn fawr, ac mae ganddo swydd anodd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y cyfnod ymgynghori yn gweithio. Dywedodd Peter ei fod yn gweithio ar gynllun dros dro. Gwn na fydd yn siomi pobl Delyn.

David Melding spoken in English p. 52

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Like the previous speaker, whose speech I commend, I will concentrate on a particular area. We have heard much open and windy rhetoric this afternoon about larger economic matters that are perhaps not best addressed through a local government settlement. That is for others to ponder. This settlement, if it became policy, would be bad news for the Vale of Glamorgan. In many ways the Vale of Glamorgan is similar to Flintshire, as you heard from the previous speaker, in that it has lost out on Objective 2 status and on the assisted area map. We now face the second largest reductions in SSA per head in Wales, which this scheme would implement. The SSA is already, in an area like the Vale of Glamorgan, one of the lowest per head, so we will suffer an additional loss on an already lowered figure. There are particular challenges in an area like the Vale of Glamorgan, because we have a town of severe social deprivation. Several wards in Barry have income levels among the lowest in Wales. We must remember that, although some local authorities may appear in a positive colour on a social exclusion map, there can be deprived areas within them.

Fel y siaradwr blaenorol, y cymeradwyaf ei haraith, canolbwyntiaf innau ar ardal benodol. Clywsom lawer o rethreg agored a llawn gwynt y prynhawn yma am faterion economaidd mwy na ellir rhoi sylw iddynt orau efallai drwy setliad llywodraeth leol. Rhywbeth i eraill ei ystyried yw hynny. Byddai’r setliad hwn, pe deuai’n bolisi, yn newyddion drwg i Fro Morgannwg. Mae Bro Morgannwg yn debyg i Sir y Fflint mewn sawl ffordd, fel y clywsoch gan y siaradwr blaenorol, o safbwynt ei bod wedi methu gyda statws Amcan 2 a chyda’r map o ardaloedd a gynorthwyir. Wynebwn yn awr y gostyngiadau mwyaf ond un o safbwynt yr asesiad gwariant safonol y pen yng Nghymru, y byddai’r cynllun hwn yn eu gweithredu. Mae’r asesiad gwariant safonol eisoes, mewn ardal fel Bro Morgannwg, yn un o’r rhai isaf y pen, felly byddwn yn dioddef colled ychwanegol ar ffigur a ostyngwyd eisoes. Ceir sialensiau penodol mewn ardal megis Bro Morgannwg, gan fod gennym dref sydd yn dioddef o amddifadedd cymdeithasol difrifol. Mae gan sawl ward yn y Barri lefelau incwm sydd ymhlith y rhai isaf yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gofio, er y gall rhai awdurdodau lleol ymddangos mewn lliw cadarnhaol ar fap allgáu cymdeithasol, y gall ardaloedd difreintiedig fod yn eu plith.

One thing that has not been discussed this afternoon is that these reductions can appear modest. The average standard spending assessment is around £1,000 and the largest reduction is about £30. However, there is a multiplier effect in that the councils will recover that difference through the council tax. Unless they lower the standard of their services they will have to make good this difference. I understand that, on average, only about 10 per cent of local government expenditure comes from council tax payers. Therefore, there will be a significant multiplier effect. In an area like the Vale of Glamorgan, which will suffer a reduction of £25 in its SSA, the average council tax bill will probably increase by £120. That is significant. The people of the Vale of Glamorgan have a right to expect that the public services that we expect local government to deliver will be delivered at a fair cost and efficiently. That is the right of all people in Wales. There may be other factors in communities that are in particular need. However, I doubt that the best programmes to solve those problems are in this policy.

Un peth nas trafodwyd y prynhawn yma yw y gall y gostyngiadau hyn ymddangos yn fychan. Mae’r asesiad gwariant safonol cyfartalog tua £1,000 ac mae’r gostyngiad mwyaf tua £30. Fodd bynnag, ceir effaith lluosogwr oherwydd y bydd y cynghorau yn casglu’r gwahaniaeth hwn drwy’r dreth gyngor. Oni bai eu bod yn gostwng safon eu gwasanaethau, bydd yn rhaid iddynt wneud iawn am y gwahaniaeth hwn. Deallaf mai tua 10 y cant yn unig, ar gyfartaledd, o wariant llywodraeth leol a ddaw oddi wrth dalwyr y dreth gyngor. Ceir, felly, effaith lluosogwr sylweddol. Mewn ardal fel Bro Morgannwg, a fydd yn dioddef gostyngiad o £25 yn ei hasesiad gwariant safonol, mae’n debyg y bydd bil y dreth gyngor yn cynyddu £120. Mae hynny’n sylweddol. Mae gan bobl Bro Morgannwg yr hawl i ddisgwyl i’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y disgwyliwn i lywodraeth leol eu darparu gael eu darparu am bris teg ac yn effeithlon. Mae hon yn hawl i holl bobl Cymru. Efallai y ceir ffactorau eraill mewn cymunedau sydd mewn angen penodol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amheus gennyf a yw’r rhaglenni gorau i ddatrys y problemau hynny yn y polisi hwn.

In conclusion, there is a poor road network in the Vale of Glamorgan. Because that area is mostly to the south of Cardiff, many of you probably do not drive into the Vale of Glamorgan often, certainly not towards Barry. Therefore, you do not realise how poor the roads are. They cause concern to many people in the Vale of Glamorgan. The Llysworney bypass and Dinas Powys bypass schemes have not been advanced. I am not laying the blame—

I gloi, ceir rhwydwaith ffyrdd gwael ym Mro Morgannwg. Gan fod yr ardal hon yn bennaf i’r de o Gaerdydd, mae’n debyg nad oes llawer ohonoch yn gyrru i Fro Morgannwg yn aml, yn bendant ddim i gyfeiriad y Barri. O’r herwydd, ni wyddoch pa mor wael yw’r ffyrdd. Maent yn peri pryder i lawer o bobl ym Mro Morgannwg. Ni fwriwyd ymlaen â chynlluniau ffordd osgoi Llyswyrny a ffordd osgoi Dinas Powys. Ni roddaf y bai—

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 53

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Could you explain why several people where I live, in Rhondda Cynon Taff, are desperate to move to the Vale of Glamorgan under those circumstances?

A allech esbonio pam y mae nifer o bobl lle’r wyf fi’n byw, yn Rhondda Cynon Taf, yn daer eisiau symud i Fro Morgannwg dan yr amgylchiadau hynny?

David Melding spoken in English p. 53

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

With respect, I am talking about the Vale of Glamorgan. I have not avoided the fact that some local authorities face severe challenges in terms of social and economic deprivation. I am just asking whether an SSA review is the best way of fundamentally tackling that issue. I doubt it.

Gyda phob parch, yr wyf yn siarad am Fro Morgannwg. Nid wyf wedi osgoi’r ffaith fod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu sialensiau difrifol o safbwynt amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd. Nid wyf ond yn gofyn ai adolygiad o’r asesiad gwariant safonol yw’r ffordd orau o fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn yn sylfaenol. Mae’n amheus gennyf.

The road network in the Vale of Glamorgan is generally poor. The Confederation of British Industry recently said that the airport access road is one of the most urgent strategic projects required in Britain. That was reported in the Financial Times. It would be better if the Vale of Glamorgan was supported in delivering that road for the Welsh economy rather than facing the likelihood of having its SSA reduced significantly.

Mae’r rhwydwaith ffyrdd ym Mro Morgannwg yn wael yn gyffredinol. Dywedodd Cyd-ffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yn ddiweddar mai’r ffordd fynediad i’r maes awyr yw un o’r prosiectau strategol y mae’r brys mwyaf amdanynt sydd yn ofynnol ym Mhrydain. Adroddwyd am hynny yn y Financial Times. Byddai’n well pe câi Bro Morgannwg gefnogaeth i sicrhau’r ffordd honno ar gyfer yr economi Gymreig yn hytrach na wynebu’r tebygrwydd o gael gostyngiad sylweddol yn ei hasesiad gwariant safonol.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 54

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

This review is long overdue. If we are about to tackle inequalities in Wales, we need a far more equitable local government funding system. I will put some of these issues into context. Last week, Dr Brian Gibbons unveiled a map of deprivation in Wales based on several indicators. Twelve wards in the Cynon Valley—my constituency—appeared on that map. However, no wards in Monmouth appeared on it. Those 12 wards are deprived and excluded and they touch every part of my constituency, from Pen-y-waun in the north, Mountain Ash in the centre to Abercynon and Ynys-y-bŵl in the south. Each part of the valley is affected by deprivation. We all agree that we represent constituencies and regions where there are pockets of deprivation. There is no doubt about that. Wales is a poor country. However, as Peter Law noted recently, in the Valleys, deprivation is surrounded by deprivation. This is what makes this review an important piece of work.

Mae’r adolygiad hwn yn hir-ddisgwyliedig. Os ydym ar fin mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau yng Nghymru, rhaid inni gael system cyllido llywodraeth leol llawer tecach. Rhoddaf rai o’r materion hyn yn eu cyd-destun. Yr wythnos diwethaf, datguddiodd Dr Brian Gibbons fap o amddifadedd yng Nghymru yn seiliedig ar sawl dangosydd. Ymddangosodd 12 ward yng Nghwm Cynon—fy etholaeth i—ar y map hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, nid ymddangosodd unrhyw wardiau ym Mynwy arno. Mae’r 12 ward hynny yn ddifreintiedig ac yn eithriedig a chyffyrddant â phob rhan o’m hetholaeth i, o Ben-y-waun yn y gogledd, Aberpennar yn y canol i Abercynon ac Ynys-y-bŵl yn y de. Mae amddifadedd yn effeithio ar bob rhan o’r cwm. Cytunwn i gyd ein bod yn cynrychioli etholaethau a rhanbarthau lle ceir pocedi o amddifadedd. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth am hynny. Gwlad dlawd yw Cymru. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Peter Law yn ddiweddar, yn y Cymoedd, amgylchynir amddifadedd gan amddifadedd. Dyna sy’n gwneud yr adolygiad hwn yn ddarn pwysig o waith.

Let us go beyond the rhetoric. Let us consider what this means for Valley areas. In constituencies like mine—and many Assembly Members represent similar areas—we have high levels of economic inactivity, limiting long-term illness and mortality, and council taxes that are among the highest in Wales. We have the highest number of pre-1919 homes in Wales and the second highest level of homes unfit for habitation. The streets are dirty, fly tipping is on the increase, the roads need repair, back lanes need clearing and schools need new roofs and more space. Constituencies such as mine, Cynon Valley, really need this extra money. The centre of Mountain Ash is different from the centre of Monmouth. If Members—David, for example—would like to visit the constituency, I am sure that we could arrange it. There are differences.

Gadewch inni fynd y tu hwnt i’r rhethreg. Gadewch inni ystyried beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu i ardaloedd y Cymoedd. Mewn etholaethau fel fy un i—ac mae llawer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn cynrychioli ardaloedd tebyg—mae gennym lefelau uchel o syrthni economaidd, lefelau salwch tymor hir cyfyngol a marwolaethau, a threth gyngor sydd ymhlith yr uchaf yng Nghymru. Mae gennym y nifer uchaf o gartrefi a adeiladwyd cyn 1919 yng Nghymru a’r lefel uchaf ond un o gartrefi sy’n anaddas i fyw ynddynt. Mae’r strydoedd yn fudr, mae gwaredu sbwriel yn anghyfreithlon ar gynydd, mae angen trwsio’r ffyrdd, mae angen clirio lonydd cefn ac mae ar ysgolion angen toeau newydd a mwy o le. Mae ar etholaethau fel fy un i, Cwm Cynon, wir angen yr arian ychwanegol hwn. Mae canol Aberpennar yn wahanol i ganol Mynwy. Pe hoffai Aelodau—David, er enghraifft—ymweld â’r etholaeth, yr wyf yn sicr y gallem drefnu hynny. Mae gwahaniaethau.

David Melding spoken in English p. 55

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I visit the area frequently and hold surgeries there.

Ymwelaf â’r ardal yn aml a chynhaliaf gymorthfeydd yno.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 55

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

The review from the University of Wales, Swansea is an independent assessment. It is not an attack on areas such as Monmouth and it is not work produced by supposedly profligate authorities. I declare an interest as a former member of one of these so-called profligate authorities. We want extra cash, but this review is an independent analysis based on real community need. In areas such as the Valleys and throughout Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough, we see some of the highest levels of deprivation in Wales. We need a funding formula that reflects the needs of socially-excluded communities.

Mae’r adolygiad gan Brifysgol Cymru, Abertawe yn asesiad annibynnol. Nid yw’n ymosodiad ar ardaloedd megis Mynwy ac nid yw’n waith a gynhyrchwyd gan awdurdodau afrad fel y tybir. Datganaf fuddiant fel cyn-aelod o un o’r awdurdodau afrad hyn, fel y’u gelwir. Mae arnom eisiau rhagor o arian, ond mae’r adolygiad hwn yn ddadansoddiad annibynnol sy’n seiliedig ar wir angen cymunedol. Mewn ardaloedd megis y Cymoedd a ledled Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, gwelwn rai o’r lefelau amddifadedd uchaf yng Nghymru. Mae arnom angen fformwla gyllido sy’n adlewyrchu anghenion y cymunedau hyn sydd wedi eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol.

As Assembly Members, we have a duty to make a difference in Wales. We have the opportunity to effect change, which is what this review is about. It would be criminal if we did not grasp that opportunity with both hands. When we came to the Assembly, the people of Wales expected much of us. In the Valleys, people’s expectations are high. They want us to deliver for them. We must do that or we will be wasting our time. Brian Gibbons spoke well about inequalities. However, as John Griffiths said, this is also about social justice.

Fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad, mae gennym ddyletswydd i wneud gwahaniaeth yng Nghymru. Mae’r cyfle gennym i beri newid, a dyna’n union beth yw bwriad yr adolygiad hwn. Byddai’n warthus pe na byddem yn cydio yn y cyfle hwnnw gyda’n dwy law. Pan ddaethom i’r Cynulliad, yr oedd pobl Cymru yn disgwyl llawer gennym. Yn y Cymoedd, mae disgwyliadau pobl yn uchel. Maent am inni gyflawni ar eu cyfer. Rhaid inni wneud hynny neu byddwn yn gwastraffu ein hamser. Siaradodd Brian Gibbons yn dda am anghydraddoldebau. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd John Griffiths, mae hyn yn ymwneud hefyd â chyfiawnder cymdeithasol.

If we are to benefit from this new formula, I urge everyone to act responsibly to consider the issues that are addressed. We desperately need this extra allocation so that we can continue to tackle the problems that I have mentioned. I hope that the consultation responses are in favour of adopting the report as soon as possible and that the authorities—that have suffered ever since the botched job that the Conservatives made of local government reorganisation in Wales—can begin to receive appropriate funding, based on deprivation.

Os ydym am elwa o’r fformwla newydd hon, anogaf bawb i weithredu’n gyfrifol er mwyn ystyried y materion dan sylw. Mae arnom angen taer am y dyraniad ychwanegol hwn fel y gallwn barhau i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau a grybwyllais. Gobeithiaf fod ymatebion yr ymgynghoriad o blaid mabwysiadu’r adroddiad cyn gynted â phosibl ac y gall yr awdurdodau—sydd wedi dioddef, ers y traed moch a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr o ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru—ddechrau derbyn nawdd priodol, yn seiliedig ar amddifadedd.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 56

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Having been a member of local government before and after reorganisation, I am more than well aware of the problems that have faced local government and the desperate need to reconsider the standard spending assessment formula. I reiterate what Christine said: this review process involved independent research and has been assessed independently. I agree with Janet that the timing of the consultation is difficult for local government because it does not meet over the summer. However, the consultation period is the time for local authorities to examine the proposals and to identify areas of concern. It is not for us to try to rewrite the formula today. The consultation period is the time for it to be considered rationally.

A minnau wedi bod yn aelod o lywodraeth leol cyn ac ar ôl yr ad-drefnu, yr wyf yn gwbl ymwybodol o’r problemau sydd wedi wynebu llywodraeth leol ac o’r angen taer i ailystyried fformwla’r asesiad gwariant safonol. Ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Christine: yr oedd y broses adolygu hon yn cynnwys ymchwil annibynnol ac fe’i haseswyd yn annibynnol. Cytunaf gyda Janet fod amseriad yr ymgynghoriad yn anodd i lywodraeth leol gan nad yw’n cyfarfod dros yr haf. Fodd bynnag, y cyfnod ymgynghori yw’r amser i awdurdodau lleol archwilio’r cynigion a dynodi meysydd sy’n peri pryder. Nid ein lle ni yw ceisio ailysgrifennu’r fformwla heddiw. Y cyfnod ymgynghori yw’r amser i’w hystyried yn rhesymegol.

John Marek highlighted problems with data in the Wrexham local authority area. Some areas do not identify spend on social services in the way that has been done, ward by ward, in Wrexham. Also highlighted were other problems such as population. Wrexham has questioned the formula that updates census figures. Its concern is being taken seriously and could well impact on the outcome. We should not prejudge, through the amendments proposed, or by any preconceptions of what the final spend will be, what will happen in the future. I welcome Peter’s comments about relief where it is needed. We should be pleased, leave the consultation to the eight-week period and allow everybody involved to make their comments and for the system to take its course.

Tynnodd John Marek sylw at broblemau gyda data yn ardal awdurdod lleol Wrecsam. Nid yw rhai ardaloedd yn dangos y gwariant ar y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol fel y gwnaethpwyd, fesul ward, yn Wrecsam. Tynnwyd sylw hefyd at broblemau eraill megis poblogaeth. Mae Wrecsam wedi codi cwestiynau am y fformwla sy’n diweddaru ffigurau’r cyfrifiad. Cymerir ei bryderon o ddifrif a gallai effeithio’n ddigon hawdd ar y canlyniad. Ni ddylem ragfarnu, drwy’r gwelliannau arfaethedig, na thrwy unrhyw ragdybiaethau o’r hyn y bydd y gwariant terfynol, yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd yn y dyfodol. Croesawaf sylwadau Peter am ryddhad lle mae hynny’n ofynnol. Dylem fod yn falch, gadael yr ymgynghoriad i’r cyfnod wyth wythnos a chaniatáu i bawb sy’n gysylltiedig wneud eu sylwadau ac i’r system ddilyn ei chwrs.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 56

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

It is a pleasure for me to contribute to this hugely important debate because of the impact it will have on many parts of Wales. It is particularly important where I live because the percentage of the council tax levied in Powys only represents about 16 per cent of the council’s total spending. The grant represents about 84 per cent. The impact of a change to the way in which the grant to Powys is calculated will make a massive difference to the council tax levied in the area.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gyfrannu at y ddadl eithriadol o bwysig hon oherwydd yr effaith a gaiff ar sawl rhan o Gymru. Mae’n arbennig o bwysig lle yr wyf fi yn byw oherwydd mai dim ond tua 16 y cant o gyfanswm gwariant y cyngor a godir drwy’r dreth gyngor ym Mhowys. Mae’r grant yn cynrychioli tua 84 y cant. Bydd effaith newid sut y pennir grant Powys yn gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr i’r dreth gyngor a godir yn yr ardal.

I do not want to criticise the Assembly Secretary who is making the presentation today, which is a personal sacrifice for me because criticising Peter Law is always good value. However, on this occasion, I want to be consensual in voicing the concerns that I have about this process. Taxation is controversial in all its forms. Other Members spoke about different forms of taxation and criticised previous governments. In my view, all forms of taxation should be absolutely open, because it is such an important issue.

Nid wyf am feirniadu’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad sydd yn rhoi cyflwyniad heddiw. Mae hynny’n aberth personol imi gan fod beirniadu Peter Law bob tro’n werthfawr. Fodd bynnag, ar yr achlysur hwn, yr wyf am fod yn gydsyniol drwy leisio’r pryderon sydd gennyf ynghylch y broses hon. Mae pob math o drethiant yn ddadleuol. Siaradodd Aelodau eraill am wahanol fathau o drethiant gan feirniadu llywodraethau blaenorol. Yn fy marn i, dylai pob math o drethiant fod yn gwbl agored, oherwydd ei fod yn fater mor bwysig.

The first point is how the new formula has been calculated. You, Peter, have to make certain that every basis on which we arrive at this new formula has to be made absolutely public. Those areas that will lose out—there will obviously be some who will win and some who will lose—will be able to bear the losses a little easier if they know that it is a fair system that they understand. It is your responsibility to ensure that everybody understands the background to any change in the formula.

Y pwynt cyntaf yw sut y cyfrifwyd y fformwla newydd. Rhaid i chi, Peter, sicrhau bod pob sail a ddefnyddir i gyrraedd y fformwla newydd hon yn gwbl agored i’r cyhoedd. Bydd y meysydd hynny a fydd ar eu colled—mae’n amlwg y bydd rhai ar eu hennill ac eraill ar eu colled—yn gallu goddef y colledion ychydig yn haws os ydynt yn gwybod bod hon yn system deg a dealladwy. Eich cyfrifoldeb chi yw sicrhau bod pawb yn deall y cefndir ar gyfer unrhyw newid yn y fformwla.

My second point relates to something that you raised in your speech earlier on, Peter: the independence of the taskforce. This week I attended my first meeting of the Partnership Council and—I hope that you will take this in the spirit in which I say it—it sounded to me like a Labour ‘love-in’. You and the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association were unbelievably friendly. Even in the official parts, you were on Christian-name terms; it seemed awfully non-independent. There is a real worry that that meeting would clearly favour Labour authorities, and would work against those who were least likely to be Labour. I hope that you will take that on board as a serious concern.

Mae fy ail bwynt yn ymwneud â rhywbeth y crybwylloch chi yn eich araith yn gynharach, Peter: annibyniaeth y tasglu. Mynychais fy nghyfarfod cyntaf o’r Cyngor Partneriaeth yr wythnos hon—a gobeithiaf y derbyniwch hyn yn yr ysbryd yr wyf yn ei olygu—yr oedd yn ymddangos i mi fel ‘sesiwn-garu’ Llafur. Yr oeddech chi ac arweinydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru’n anhygoel o gyfeillgar. Hyd yn oed yn ystod y darnau swyddogol, yr oeddech chi yn galw eich gilydd yn ôl eich enwau cyntaf; ac yr oedd yn ymddangos yn ofnadwy o an-annibynnol. Mae gwir bryder y byddai’r cyfarfod hwnnw’n amlwg yn ffafrio awdurdodau Llafur, ac y byddai’n gweithio yn erbyn y rheini a oedd leiaf tebygol o fod yn Llafur. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ystyried hynny’n bryder difrifol.

There will be a change in weighting. Having heard you and others speak, I am not certain how this change works out. The Assembly as a whole may believe that there should be a change in weighting; I know that people such as Brian Gibbons and Huw Lewis and many others have talked about the need to change the weighting towards deprivation. That may involve some reduction in need as measured by sparsity. If that is going to happen, we should have a debate on it. Some of us may disagree with it—I might—but if that is the Assembly’s view, that is what will happen. However, let us not pretend that there is a plus side with no minus side. Let us be open and public and tell people exactly what the Assembly’s decision means in terms of a negative impact on authorities. There may be no consensus here, we may disagree, and we must not pretend otherwise.

Bydd y pwysiad yn newid. Ar ôl gwrando arnoch chi ac eraill yn siarad, nid wyf yn siŵr sut y mae’r newid hwn yn gweithio. Efallai fod y Cynulliad yn ei gyfanrwydd yn credu bod angen newid y pwysiad; gwn fod pobl fel Brian Gibbons a Huw Lewis a nifer o rai eraill wedi siarad am yr angen i newid y pwysiad tuag at amddifadedd. Gallai hynny olygu lleihau ychydig ar yr angen fel y caiff ei fesur gan deneurwydd poblogaeth. Os bydd hynny’n digwydd, dylem gynnal dadl arno. Efallai fod rhai ohonom yn anghytuno ag ef—efallai fy mod i—ond os mai honno yw barn y Cynulliad, hynny fydd yn digwydd. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem honni bod ochr gadarnhaol heb ochr negyddol. Gadewch inni fod yn agored â’r cyhoedd a dweud wrth bobl yn union beth mae penderfyniadau’r Cynulliad yn ei olygu o ran effaith negyddol ar awdurdodau. Efallai nad oes consensws yma, efallai ein bod yn anghytuno, a rhaid inni beidio â honni fel arall.

I refer again to the overall increase in local authority spending, which to some extent is linked to this issue, but also detached from it. Until we have the comprehensive spending review next week and time to understand exactly what it says and apply it to our own budget-setting process, we will not know what it means in terms of council tax levies. I do not know whether it has come from you, Peter—perhaps you can tell us later—but I have seen reports that a 10 per cent average increase in council tax in Wales is anticipated next year. You must accept that at this stage that would be totally unacceptable. I conclude by making that point as firmly as I can; we must introduce a system of council tax increases this year that the people of rural and urban Wales are prepared to accept.

Cyfeiriaf eto at y cynnydd cyffredinol yng ngwariant awdurdodau lleol, sy’n gysylltiedig â’r mater hwn i ryw raddau, ond sydd ar wahân hefyd. Nes inni gael yr arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant yr wythnos nesaf ac amser i ddeall yn union beth a ddywedir ynddo a’i roi ar waith yn ein proses gosod cyllideb ein hunain, ni fyddwn yn gwybod beth y mae’n ei olygu o ran codiadau’r dreth gyngor. Ni wn a ddaeth hyn gennych chi Peter—efallai y gallwch ddweud wrthym ymhellach ymlaen—ond yr wyf wedi gweld adroddiadau y disgwylir gweld cynnydd cyfartalog o 10 y cant yn y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru y flwyddyn nesaf. Rhaid ichi dderbyn y byddai hynny’n gwbl annerbyniol ar yr adeg hon. Yr wyf am gloi drwy bwysleisio fy mhwynt cymaint ag y gallaf; rhaid inni gyflwyno system o godiadau’r dreth gyngor eleni y bydd pobl trefi a chefn gwlad Cymru’n barod i’w derbyn.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 58

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

No one would deny the need for a revised, fairer SSA formula. As early as 1996, it became obvious that there was an urgent need for something to be done. The formula failed to relate to the spending assessments of some of the new authorities and the expenditure levels that they had inherited, particularly in some of the Valley authorities. This was particularly the case in Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, which was made up of no less than four predecessor authorities. I am pleased that my constituents in Rhondda Cynon Taff will not be severely affected this time. I support what Christine Chapman said when she defended Rhondda Cynon Taff. However, there is no doubt that the council’s financial problems arise partly from the serious mismatch between the former assessment for Rhondda and the higher expenditure levels in its predecessor councils.

Ni fyddai unrhyw un yn gwadu bod angen fformwla asesiad gwariant safonol diwygiedig a thecach. Mor fuan â 1996, yr oedd yn amlwg bod angen gwneud rhywbeth ar frys. Methodd y fformwla â chysylltu ag asesiadau gwariant rhai o’r awdurdodau newydd a’r lefelau gwariant yr oeddent wedi’u hetifeddu, yn enwedig yn rhai o awdurdodau’r Cymoedd. Yr oedd hyn yn amlwg iawn yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf a grëwyd drwy uno cymaint â phedwar o’r hen awdurdodau. Yr wyf yn falch nad effeithir llawer ar fy etholwyr yn Rhondda Cynon Taf y tro hwn. Cefnogaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Christine Chapman pan amddiffynnodd Rhondda Cynon Taf. Fodd bynnag, mae problemau ariannol y cyngor yn ddiamau wedi codi’n rhannol o’r bwlch difrifol rhwng hen asesiad y Rhondda a lefelau gwariant uwch y cynghorau a’i rhagflaenodd.

A third of my constituents are served by Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council and have had to bear the burden of that unjust formula. They have been grateful for the damping mechanism, which was first introduced when there was a Conservative Secretary of State at the Welsh Office. The Welsh Local Government Association recognised the need for a damping mechanism to allay the glaring injustices being perpetrated by the flawed formula. That is why I supported its continuation last year when we were asked for time to consider changes in the formula. However, what concerns me now is that while the injustices of the old assessment are being removed from them, the other two-thirds of my constituents, who live in the Bridgend County Borough Council area, will think that the burden has been transferred to them.

Caiff traean o’m hetholwyr eu gwasanaethu gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ac maent wedi gorfod ysgwyddo baich y fformwla annheg honno. Yr oeddent yn ddiolchgar am y mecanwaith lliniaru, a gyflwynwyd gyntaf pan oedd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn y Swyddfa Gymreig yn Geidwadwr. Fe gydnabyddodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fod angen mecanwaith lliniaru i leddfu’r anghyfiawnderau amlwg y mae’r fformwla wallus yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Dyna paham y cefnogais ei barhad y llynedd pan ofynnwyd am amser i ystyried newidiadau i’r fformwla. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sy’n fy mhryderu yn awr yw tra bo anghyfiawnderau’r hen asesiad yn cael eu dileu, y bydd dau draean arall o’m hetholwyr, sy’n byw yn ardal Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn meddwl bod y baich wedi ei drosglwyddo iddynt hwy.

Peter, I know that you understand deprivation, representing the constituency that you do, and I know that you are aware that Ogmore forms the most deprived part of the Bridgend County Borough Council area. I say to Christine that when she paints a picture of the Cynon Valley, she is also painting a picture of the vast majority of the Ogmore constituency. However, that part of the Ogmore constituency is in the Bridgend County Borough Council area and currently faces a 1 per cent cut, a reduction of £1.4 million.

Peter, gwn eich bod yn deall amddifadedd, drwy gynrychioli eich etholaeth, a gwn eich bod yn ymwybodol mai Ogwr yw un o ardaloedd mwyaf amddifad ardal Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Dywedaf wrth Christine, ei bod hi’n peintio llun o’r mwyafrif helaeth o etholaeth Ogwr pan fydd hi’n peintio llun o Gwm Cynon. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhan honno o etholaeth Ogwr yn ardal Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr ac ar hyn o bryd yn wynebu toriad o 1 y cant, gostyngiad o £1.4 miliwn.

The comparative table indicates that the present percentage of 1.5 per cent below the Welsh average will decrease to 2.5 per cent. I do not want to be too technical about this. However, you may say that it is only a 1 per cent reduction, but as I said, it is a cut of £1.4 million in a deprived area. I met the council last week and asked what options it will consider if it is faced with a cut of £1.4 million. It gave the following examples and they are horror stories. The sort of adjustments that would be needed to meet the new SSA guidance would be reductions in the following: a £946,000 cut in elderly and community care—please remember that my constituency is an ex-mining constituency with a majority of elderly people, many of them with long-term illnesses—£147,000 in refuse collection, £130,000 in school meals and the list goes on. It also advised me that the reduction in SSA would mean cuts in the services to which the people of my constituency have become accustomed, since the new authority was established. We could also be facing the closure of leisure centres in the deprived communities of the Bridgend County Borough. People who are familiar with deprived areas know that there are not many leisure facilities in them. The switching off of street lighting, and staff redundancies are other possible cuts. The list goes on and on.

Mae’r tabl cymharol yn dangos y bydd y ganran bresennol sydd 1.5 y cant dan gyfartaledd Cymru yn gostwng i 2.5 y cant. Nid wyf am fod yn rhy dechnegol ynghylch hyn. Fodd bynnag, gallwch ddweud mai dim ond 1 y cant yw’r gostyngiad, ond fel y dywedais, mae’n ostyngiad o £1.4 miliwn mewn ardal amddifad. Cyfarfûm â’r cyngor yr wythnos diwethaf a gofynnais pa ddewisiadau y byddai’n eu hystyried pe byddai’n wynebu toriad o £1.4 miliwn. Rhoddodd yr enghreifftiau canlynol ac maent yn arswydus. Byddai’r math o newidiadau y byddai eu hangen i fodloni’r arweiniad asesiad gwariant safonol newydd yn golygu’r gostyngiadau canlynol: toriad o £946,000 ym maes gofal i’r henoed a gofal cymunedol—cofiwch mai hen etholaeth lofaol yw fy etholaeth i gyda mwyafrif o’r boblogaeth yn henoed a llawer ohonynt gyda salwch tymor hir—£147,000 ar gasglu ysbwriel, £130,000 ar ginio ysgol ac mae’r rhestr yn mynd yn ei blaen. Dywedwyd wrthyf hefyd y byddai’r gostyngiad mewn asesiad gwariant safonol yn golygu toriadau i’r gwasanaethau y mae pobl fy etholaeth wedi dod i arfer â hwy, ers sefydlu’r awdurdod newydd. Gallem hefyd fod yn wynebu cau canolfannau hamdden cymunedau amddifad Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Mae pobl sy’n gyfarwydd ag ardaloedd amddifad yn gwybod nad oes llawer o gyfleusterau hamdden ar gael ynddynt. Mae diffodd lampau stryd, a diswyddo staff yn doriadau posibl eraill. Mae’r rhestr yn mynd ymlaen ac ymlaen.

I hope that the eight-week consultation will lead to an urgent amendment of the reviews’ preliminary assessment. What would be the overall increase to a settlement that required no authority to suffer any reduction in its spending assessment? What would it take to have no losers? Would it be a £100 million? What percentage of that overall settlement of £2.5 billion pound would it be? It would be much less than that. We should give that more serious consideration.

Gobeithiaf y bydd yr ymgynghoriad wyth wythnos yn arwain at newid asesiad rhagarweiniol yr adolygiadau. Beth fyddai’r cynnydd cyffredinol i setliad a fyddai’n golygu na fyddai unrhyw awdurdod yn ddioddef toriadau yn eu hasesiad gwariant? Beth sydd ei angen fel nad oes unrhyw un ar eu colled? A fyddai £100 miliwn yn ddigon? Pa ganran o’r setliad cyffredinol o £2.5 biliwn fyddai hynny? Byddai’n llawer llai na hynny. Dylem ystyried hynny’n fwy difrifol.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 60

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I speak against all the amendments apart from Phil Williams’s amendment 3—which is perhaps a useful technical input into the debate—for two reasons. First, this is the beginning of a consultation process. We are moving into a consultation process with partners outside the Assembly. To pre-empt this consultation and attempt to distort the process by putting down markers about the Assembly’s opinion on certain issues that may or may not be in the Pion Economics University of Wales, Swansea, report is wrong. It is done so that we may return to a debate at a later date without having to pay due regard to our consultees. In other words, we are putting pre-conditions on the consultation. That is wrong. Second, I address the issue of sparsity that has been raised in several of the amendments. It disturbs me greatly. This word sparsity is losing its currency amongst the experts. I quote from page 35 of the University of Wales, Swansea report:

Siaradaf yn erbyn yr holl welliannau ar wahân i welliant 3 Phil Williams—sydd efallai’n gyfraniad technegol defnyddiol i’r ddadl—am ddau reswm. Yn gyntaf, dechrau proses ymgynghorol yw hyn. Yr ydym yn dechrau ar broses ymgynghori gyda phartneriaid o’r tu allan i’r Cynulliad. Mae’n anghywir ceisio achub y blaen ar yr ymgynghoriad hwn a cheisio gwyrdroi’r broses drwy osod marcwyr ynghylch barn y Cynulliad ar faterion penodol a allai fod yn adroddiad Prifysgol Cymru, Abertawe, Pion Economics, neu wedi’u hepgor ohono. Caiff hyn ei wneud fel ein bod yn gallu dychwelyd at ddadl yn nes ymlaen, heb orfod rhoi sylw teilwng i’n hymgynghorwyr. Mewn geiriau eraill, yr ydym yn gosod rhag-amodau ar yr ymgynghoriad. Mae hynny’n anghywir. Yn ail, rhoddaf sylw i’r mater o deneurwydd poblogaeth a godwyd yn nifer o’r gwelliannau. Mae hyn yn fy mhoeni’n fawr. Mae’r term teneurwydd poblogaeth hwn yn colli ei nerth ymysg yr arbenigwyr. Dyfynnaf o dudalen 35 adroddiad Prifysgol Cymru, Abertawe:

‘the notion of sparsity should be replaced by recognition of difficulties in providing services to more remote communities. Indeed it may now be the case that the use of the term sparisty is something of a misnomer.’

‘dylid disodli’r syniad o deneurwydd poblogaeth drwy gydnabod yr anawsterau wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau i gymunedau sydd yn fwy anghysbell. Yn wir, efallai mai’r sefyllfa erbyn hyn yw y defnyddir y term teneurwydd poblogaeth yn anghywir.’

I referred earlier to the Arbuthnott formula in Scotland which acceptably only deals with the NHS but deals also with similar issues. They have thrown out the concept of sparsity and replaced it with a more severe problem of remoteness. There is no evidence to support the idea that sparsity itself is a contributory factor to deprivation. The evidence is just not there. Those of us who look at the review of the SSA from a left, socialist perspective see it as a social justice issue. Social justice is about delivering to people in need. Sparsity is where people are not in need. We must accept that. I accept the arguments about pockets. We have deprivation and we must be subtler in our approach. That is true. However, essentially, this argument about sparsity is a crude method for putting down a marker, to claw back money as opposition parties scramble over each other in an attempt to enter into a peeing-up-the-wall contest for the rural vote in Wales. It is no more than that. It is completely unsubtle. It does not address the issues. It does not address the key issue of social justice. Brian Gibbons mentioned earlier—

Cyfeiriais yn gynharach at fformwla Arbuthnott yn yr Alban, sy’n delio â’r NHS yn unig fel arfer, ond mae’n delio hefyd â materion tebyg. Cawsant wared ar y syniad o deneurwydd poblogaeth a’i ddisodli gyda phroblem fwy difrifol o bellenigrwydd. Nid oes tystiolaeth i gefnogi’r syniad fod teneurwydd poblogaeth ei hun yn ffactor sy’n cyfrannu at amddifadedd. Nid oes tystiolaeth ar gael. Mae’r rheini ohonom sy’n edrych ar adolygiad yr asesiad gwariant safonol o bersbectif chwith, sosialaidd yn ei ystyried yn fater o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Ymateb i bobl sydd mewn angen yw hanfod cyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Nid pobl mewn angen yw hanfod teneurwydd poblogaeth. Rhaid inni dderbyn hynny. Derbyniaf y dadleuon am bocedi. Mae gennym amddifadedd a rhaid i’n hagwedd fod yn fwy cynnil. Mae hynny’n wir. Fodd bynnag, yn ei hanfod, mae’r ddadl hon ar deneurwydd poblogaeth yn ddull amrwd o osod marciwr, i adfachu arian wrth i’r gwrthbleidiau frwydro ar draws ei gilydd mewn ymdrech i roi cynnig ar gystadleuaeth piso i fyny’r wal am y bleidlais wledig yng Nghymru. Nid yw’n fwy na hynny. Nid yw hynny’n gynnil o gwbl. Nid yw’n rhoi sylw i’r materion dan sylw. Nid yw’n rhoi sylw i’r mater allweddol o anghyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Soniodd Brian Gibbons yn gynharach—

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 61

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 61

Mae’n bwysig nodi bod Huw Lewis ar adegau—er bod grym yn ei ddadleuon—yn siarad drwy ei het. Nid oes neb yn dweud bod teneurwydd poblogaeth yn achosi amddifadedd. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n golygu cost ychwanegol. Mae hynny’n amlwg. Mewn perthynas â darparu ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, mae’n amlwg ei fod yn ffactor o bwys. Nid yw’n wir dweud nad oes amddifadedd lle mae teneurwydd poblogaeth. Gallai Huw fynd i Landdewibrefi ac i nifer o bentrefi yng nghefn gwlad Ceredigion a byddai’n dod ar draws llawer o bobl amddifad.

It is important to note that Huw Lewis at times—although there is strength to his arguments—speaks through his hat. No one is saying that population sparsity causes deprivation. However, it does mean additional cost. That is evident. In relation to providing for social services, it is obviously an important factor. It is not true to say that there is no deprivation where there is population sparsity. Huw could go to Llanddewibrefi and a number of villages in rural Ceredigion and he would come across many people who are suffering from deprivation.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 62

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Based on the evidence—read the report, Cynog—most of what is being said here is anecdotal and without basis in fact. I accept that sparsity has an effect on the cost of service delivery. However, if you read the reports—not just ours, but Scotland’s—the effect is marginal and it is rightly downgraded. There are better ways of discussing how we finance service delivery in areas of remoteness, which is, if you read the report, different from sparsity. I put this challenge to those so-called socialists in the Welsh nationalist party—Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales if you want me to say its correct name—

Ar sail y dystiolaeth—darllenwch yr adroddiad Cynog—mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r hyn sy’n cael ei ddweud yma’n storïol ac yn ddi-sail mewn gwirionedd. Derbyniaf fod teneurwydd poblogaeth yn effeithio ar gost darparu gwasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, os darllenwch yr adroddiadau—rhai’r Alban yn ogystal â’n rhai ni—ymylol yw’r effaith ac mae’n cael ei israddio’n gwbl gywir. Mae gwell ffyrdd o drafod sut yr ydym yn cyllido cyflwyno gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd anghysbell, sydd, os darllenwch yr adroddiad, yn wahanol i deneurwydd poblogaeth. Gosodaf yr her hon i’r rheini sy’n galw eu hunain yn sosialwyr ym mhlaid genedlaethol Cymru—Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales os ydych am imi ddweud ei henw cywir—

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 62

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Which ones are they?

Pa rai yw’r rheini?

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 62

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Yes, which ones are they? We will be able to tell which ones they are today because they will vote against the amendments. This is simply a consultation with our partners in Welsh society about whether we should deliver on the key issue of social justice that has faced us during our year’s existence. Face up to it. Face up to the priorities or sell out.

Ie, pa rai yw’r rheini? Gallwn ddweud pa rai ydynt heddiw oherwydd byddant yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliannau. Dim ond ymgynghoriad gyda’n partneriaid yng nghymdeithas Cymru yw hwn ynghylch a ddylem gyflawni ar y mater allweddol o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol sydd wedi ein hwynebu drwy gydol ein blwyddyn o fodolaeth. Wynebwch y gwir. Wynebwch y blaenoriaethau neu rhowch y ffidil yn y to.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 62

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

A veritable galaxy of points were made this afternoon for me to respond to. However, if we are not careful we will miss the point of this. As Huw Lewis said, this is a consultation and, as Christine Chapman said, we must be responsible in our approach to this. The consultation period has begun and we need to take advantage of the opportunity to listen to what people outside the Assembly have to say to us. They will make all these points. You can all make these points. Local government will make all the points that you want to make. We do not want to pre-empt the process. That is what I tried to say at the beginning of this debate.

Yn wir, cafwyd galaeth o bwyntiau’r prynhawn yma imi ymateb iddynt. Fodd bynnag, os nad ydym yn ofalus byddwn yn anghofio pwynt hyn i gyd. Fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis, ymgynghoriad yw hwn ac, fel y dywedodd Christine Chapman, rhaid inni fod yn gyfrifol o ran ein hagwedd at hyn. Mae’r cyfnod ymgynghori wedi dechrau ac mae angen inni fanteisio ar y cyfle i wrando ar yr hyn sydd gan bobl o’r tu allan i’r Cynulliad i’w ddweud wrthym. Byddant yn gwneud yr holl bwyntiau hyn. Gall pob un ohonoch wneud y pwyntiau hyn. Bydd llywodraeth leol yn gwneud yr holl bwyntiau y byddwch chi am eu gwneud. Nid ydym eisiau achub y blaen ar y broses. Ceisiais ddweud hynny ar ddechrau’r ddadl.

It was interesting to hear the contributions this afternoon. I listened carefully to Janet Ryder. She and several others said that this is a bad time for a consultation. I need to put that right. Janet also said that to me last week, when we discussed the consultation on Communities First. However, I remind her and many Members in her party and other parties that, when it came to the Liberal Democrats’ proposed Housing Order a few weeks ago, the summer was not a bad time for consultation then, was it, Peter? When I said to you that we could not do it in four months, I think that Jenny said to me that it would be challenging. I like that. She said it without smiling, too, which made me worried. That was how it was. It has to be done and it has to be done over the summer. That is the point.

Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed y cyfraniadau’r prynhawn yma. Gwrandewais yn astud ar Janet Ryder. Dywedodd hi a nifer o rai eraill fod hwn yn gyfnod gwael i gynnal ymgynghoriad. Mae angen imi gywiro hynny. Dywedodd Janet hynny wrthyf yr wythnos diwethaf hefyd, pan oeddem yn trafod ymgynghoriad Cymunedau yn Gyntaf. Fodd bynnag, atgoffais hi a sawl Aelod yn ei phlaid, a phleidiau eraill, wrth ystyried Gorchymyn Tai arfaethedig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ychydig o wythnosau yn ôl, nad oedd yr haf yn gyfnod gwael i gael ymgynghoriad yr adeg honno, nac oedd, Peter? Pan ddywedais wrthych na allem wneud hynny mewn pedwar mis, tybiaf mai Jenny a ddywedodd wrthyf y byddai hynny’n her. Yr wyf yn hoffi hynny. Dywedodd hynny heb wenu hefyd. Yr oedd hynny’n fy mhoeni. Felly yr oedd hi. Rhaid i hyn gael ei wneud a rhaid iddo gael ei wneud dros yr haf. Dyna yw’r pwynt.

We are undertaking a consultation that has been agreed with the Welsh Local Government Association and the Joint Consultative Forum on Finance, members of which are Assembly Members and are present. It has been agreed for some time. This is the culmination of three years’ work to get this formula in place. Let us not have any more nonsense about the consultation period. It is necessary to get this in place. It will be a ten-week consultation and everyone understands that we need to get on with the work.

Yr ydym yn ymgymryd ag ymgynghoriad y cytunwyd arno gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r Cyd Fforwm Cyllid Ymgynghorol. Mae aelodau ohono’n Aelodau Cynulliad ac yn bresennol. Cytunwyd ar hynny ers peth amser. Mae sefydlu’r fformwla hwn yn benllanw tair blynedd o waith. Peidiwch â gadael inni gael mwy o nonsens ynghylch y cyfnod ymgynghori. Mae’n angenrheidiol sefydlu hyn. Bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn parhau am ddeg wythnos ac mae pawb yn deall bod angen inni fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith.

I assure Janet that this will come back to Plenary for debate and to the Local Government and Housing Committee for consideration. There will be opportunities for Assembly Members to make their input. You reminded me that I had said—and I did say it—that I hoped a damping grant would not be necessary again. I had hoped that it would not. However, I do not have a crystal ball. I could not have predicted what the report on the formula would state when I made that statement. This report is independent and it has turned out this way. I must take into account the fact that there are winners and losers. These people have to be considered. We must use compassion in our approach to this. I know that Members would want compassion to be exercised. Peter Black also touched on this.

Yr wyf yn sicrhau Janet y bydd hyn yn dychwelyd i Gyfarfod Llawn inni ddadlau arno ac i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai i’w ystyried. Bydd cyfleoedd i Aelodau’r Cynulliad gyfrannu ato. Gwnaethoch fy atgoffa fy mod wedi dweud—ac yr oeddwn wedi ei ddweud—fy mod yn gobeithio na fyddai grant dampio yn angenrheidiol eto. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio na fyddai ei angen. Fodd bynnag, nid oes gennyf belen risial. Ni allwn ragweld cynnwys yr adroddiad o ran y fformwla pan gyflwynais y datganiad hwnnw. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn annibynnol ac mae wedi troi allan fel hyn. Rhaid imi ystyried y ffaith fod rhai ar eu hennill a rhai ar eu colled. Rhaid ystyried y bobl hyn. Rhaid inni fod yn drugarog ein hagwedd at hyn. Gwn y byddai Aelodau am weld trugaredd yn hyn o beth. Nododd Peter Black hyn hefyd.

When Peter Black spoke, he welcomed the transitional scheme that I had said that I wanted to see. I appreciate that, because I think that it is necessary. I will come back to that in a moment. It was interesting that he did not want to take an intervention from Brian Gibbons. I am sure that Brian Gibbons made all his points afterwards. However, if Peter had taken that intervention, Brian would have mentioned the years of deprivation that people in Neath Port Talbot suffered under the old scheme, with the highest council tax in Wales. You cannot escape that fact. You cannot escape the fact that people have suffered serious deprivation, as Christine Chapman mentioned. There is deprivation surrounded by deprivation. You have to live there to experience that deprivation. I am not denigrating anybody in any other area. However, deprivation is a serious factor. If we are serious about tackling these problems, we must do something to change it.

Pan siaradodd Peter Black, croesawodd y cynllun trosiannol y dywedais yr oeddwn eisiau ei weld. Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi hynny, gan fy mod o’r farn ei fod yn angenrheidiol. Dychwelaf at hynny maes o law. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol nad oedd am dderbyn ymyrraeth Brian Gibbons. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod Brian Gibbons wedi lleisio ei holl bwyntiau ar ôl hynny. Fodd bynnag, pe byddai Peter wedi derbyn yr ymyrraeth, byddai Brian wedi sôn am y blynyddoedd o amddifadedd y mae pobl Castell-nedd Port Talbot wedi’i ddioddef dan yr hen gynllun, gyda’r dreth gyngor uchaf yng Nghymru. Ni allwch osgoi’r ffaith honno. Ni allwch osgoi’r ffaith fod pobl wedi dioddef amddifadedd difrifol, fel y soniodd Christine Chapman. Mae amddifadedd yn amgylchynu amddifadedd. Rhaid ichi fyw yno i brofi’r amddifadedd hwnnw. Nid wyf yn pardduo unrhyw un mewn unrhyw ardal arall. Fodd bynnag, mae amddifadedd yn ffactor difrifol. Os ydym o ddifrif am fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn, rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth i newid pethau.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 64

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I welcome that commitment to maintaining the link with deprivation. As you know, I am concerned that Torfaen as an authority is losing out on Objective 1 funding. Do you agree that Torfaen will lose out even more if an adjustment is made again towards sparsity? In addition, do you agree that Plaid Cymru, in calling for more money to address sparsity, exposes as a complete sham any concern that it pretends to have for the south Wales valleys?

Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i gadw’r cysylltiad gydag amddifadedd. Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf yn pryderu na fydd awdurdod Torfaen yn gallu manteisio ar gyllid Amcan 1. A ydych yn cytuno y bydd Torfaen yn colli mwy fyth os newidir eto tuag at deneurwydd poblogaeth? Yn ogystal, a ydych yn cytuno bod Plaid Cymru, drwy alw am fwy o arian i roi sylw i deneurwydd poblogaeth, yn dangos mai ffug yw unrhyw bryder sydd ganddynt am gymoedd de Cymru?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 64

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

That is a fair point, Lynne. I am concerned that the people of Torfaen, and I will mention other areas in a moment, may lose out under this arrangement. That is why I want us to have some transitional arrangement. Sparsity is addressed in this formula and it has been addressed appropriately until now. The consultation period will give everybody the opportunity to make further comments on it. However, the balance that we have heard about is appropriate, bearing in mind the years of deprivation that some people and communities have suffered. This formula seeks to try to put that right.

Mae hynny’n bwynt teg Lynne. Yr wyf yn pryderu y gallai pobl Torfaen, a soniaf am ardaloedd eraill maes o law, fod ar eu colled dan y trefniant hwn. Dyna pam yr wyf am inni gael rhyw fath o drefniant trosiannol. Mae’r fformwla hon yn rhoi sylw i deneurwydd poblogaeth ac mae sylw priodol wedi’i roi iddo hyd yn hyn. Bydd y cyfnod ymgynghori’n rhoi cyfle i bawb gyflwyno sylwadau pellach arno. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cydbwysedd y clywsom amdano’n briodol, o ystyried y blynyddoedd o amddifadedd y mae rhai pobl a chymunedau wedi’u dioddef. Mae’r fformwla hon yn ceisio cywiro hynny.

I now turn to some of Peter Black’s points. Peter knows that the distribution sub-group has used the best statistical techniques available on the most robust data available. If anybody can suggest a better methodology, I invite them to come forward during the consultation period. These people are independent experts and they work very hard. Peter and Brian mentioned recommendation 21 of the Swansea report, on gearing. That will be considered by the transitional working group.

Trof yn awr at rai o bwyntiau Peter Black. Mae Peter yn gwybod bod yr is-grŵp dosbarthu wedi defnyddio’r technegau ystadegol gorau sydd ar gael ar y data cadarnaf sydd ar gael. Os gall unrhyw un awgrymu gwell methodoleg, yr wyf yn eu gwahodd i ddod ymlaen yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori. Mae’r bobl hyn yn arbenigwyr annibynnol ac maent yn gweithio’n galed iawn. Soniodd Peter a Brian am argymhelliad 21 adroddiad Abertawe, ynghylch gerio. Caiff hynny ei ystyried gan y gweithgor trosiannol.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 65

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy. Nid wyf yn awdurdod ar y mater hwn, ond hoffwn ofyn un cwestiwn. Un o’r problemau mawr yng Nghonwy ar hyn o bryd, ac mewn awdurdodau eraill mae’n siŵr, yw mewnfudo. Mae pobl yn symud i Gonwy o ddinasoedd mawr megis Manceinion a Birmingham. Yr anhawster yw nad oes gwaith iddynt. Mae hynny’n rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar wasanaethau ac mae’n broblem wirioneddol. A oes ystyriaeth yn cael ei rhoi i’r broblem hon o ran y fformwla newydd? A yw’n un o’r ystadegau neu’r meini prawf yr ydych yn eu hystyried?

I declare an interest as a member of Conwy County Borough Council. I am not an authority on this issue, but I wish to ask one question. One of the big problems in Conwy at the moment, and in other authorities I am sure, is immigration. People are moving to Conwy from large cities such as Manchester and Birmingham. The difficulty is that there is no work for them. That puts additional pressures on services and it is a real problem. Is there a consideration of this problem in respect of the new formula? Is it one of the statistics or criteria that you are considering?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 65

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I cannot give you a detailed answer to that because every part of the formula is not at my fingertips. However, Conwy is a winner under this new formula. You will be pleased to know that Conwy gets an increase because it is hard-pressed and needs to have that increase. Issues are being taken into account in Conwy that were not considered under the old formula. That has to be good for Conwy and you must be pleased with that.

Ni allaf roi ateb manwl ichi ar hynny gan nad yw pob rhan o’r fformwla ar flaenau fy mysedd. Fodd bynnag, mae Conwy ar ei hennill dan y fformwla newydd hon. Byddwch yn falch o glywed bod Conwy yn cael cynnydd oherwydd ei bod dan bwysau a bod angen y cynnydd hwnnw arni. Rhoddir sylw i faterion yng Nghonwy nad oeddent yn cael eu hystyried dan yr hen fformwla. Rhaid i hynny fod yn beth da i Gonwy a rhaid i chithau fod yn fodlon gyda hynny.

I turn to some of the points raised by other Members. Today, of all days, David Davies reacted poorly to Mick Bates from the Liberal Democrats. He seemed unable to utter his name and was quite insulting. Today, David Davies—this master of diversion with whom I have to deal on a day-to-day basis—did not want to be reminded about issues by Mick Bates. I have made the point before that the Conservatives do not like to be reminded by the Liberal Democrats. I am grateful to the Liberal Democrats for concentrating on those issues. We are trying to put right a problem that has come from past Tory Governments, David.

Trof at rai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd gan Aelodau eraill. Heddiw, o bob diwrnod, yr oedd ymateb David Davies i Mick Bates o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn un gwael. Yr oedd yn ymddangos nad oedd yn gallu ynganu ei enw ac yr oedd yn eithaf sarhaus. Heddiw, nid oedd David Davies—y meistr yma ar dynnu sylw oddi ar y pwnc a rhywun yr wyf fi’n gorfod delio ag ef yn feunyddiol—eisiau cael ei atgoffa am faterion gan Mick Bates. Yr wyf wedi lleisio’r pwynt o’r blaen nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn hoffi cael eu hatgoffa gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am ganolbwyntio ar y materion hynny. Yr ydym yn ceisio cywiro problem a ddeilliodd o Lywodraethau Ceidwadol y gorffennol, David.

David Davies spoken in English p. 66

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I am happy to discuss anything that the Liberal Democrats wish to discuss. My point was that petrol tax had very little to do with a debate on local government finance. I thought that we were here to discuss local government finance and the problems that have been put in place by this Labour Government.

Yr wyf yn fodlon trafod unrhyw beth y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn dymuno’i drafod. Fy mhwynt oedd mai ychydig iawn oedd a wnelo treth petrol â dadl ar gyllid llywodraeth leol. Yr oeddwn yn meddwl ein bod yma i drafod cyllid llywodraeth leol a’r problemau y mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur hon wedi’u creu.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 66

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I am glad that all of this is being put on record. That was very rich coming from David Davies, who is a master of diversion. How many times in the past has he come forward during a debate to introduce issues that are totally irrelevant? You will have difficulty, David, in persuading anyone here that you were wrongly approached by Mick Bates on that matter. He wanted to remind you about the good old days when the Tories were in charge and we all suffered. Thankfully, those days are gone. During his contribution, he made as many converts as an undertaker in an intensive care unit. When David Melding referred to ‘windy and open rhetoric’, I thought he was talking about David Davies. Blunder boy did not do so well this afternoon. It is interesting to reflect on some of David Davies’s points. He questioned whether efficiency would be measured; it will be measured through Best Value. We do not want to hide the fact that we have set up Best Value for local authorities. We want local authorities to be efficient as does the Welsh Local Government Association, which is why it supports Best Value. It is not about under-performing, high-spending authorities; it is about authorities that have never had a fair deal because of a mismatch in the formula. I keep telling David Davies that, because he always misrepresents those authorities in this Chamber.

Yr wyf yn falch fod hyn i gyd yn cael ei gofnodi. Yr oedd hynny’n un dda gan David Davies sydd yn feistr ar dynnu sylw oddi ar y pwnc. Sawl gwaith yn y gorffennol y mae ef wedi dod ymlaen yn ystod dadl i gyflwyno materion cwbl amherthnasol? Cewch anhawster, David, wrth geisio darbwyllo unrhyw un yma fod Mick Bates yn anghywir i dorri ar eich traws ar y mater hwnnw. Yr oedd ef am eich atgoffa o’r hen ddyddiau da pan oedd y Ceidwadwyr yn rheoli ac yr oeddem i gyd yn dioddef. Diolch byth, mae’r dyddiau hynny wedi mynd. Cafodd ei gyfraniad gymaint o effaith â threfnwr angladdau mewn uned ofal ddwys. Pan gyfeiriodd David Melding at ‘rethreg agored a llawn gwynt’, yr oeddwn yn meddwl mai am David Davies yr oedd yn sôn. Ni wnaeth y bwngler gystal y prynhawn yma. Mae’n ddiddorol ystyried rhai o bwyntiau David Davies. Yr oedd yn cwestiynu a fyddai effeithlonrwydd yn cael ei fesur; caiff ei fesur drwy Werth Gorau. Nid ydym am guddio’r ffaith ein bod wedi sefydlu Gwerth Gorau ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol. Yr ydym ni a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru eisiau gweld awdurdodau lleol effeithlon, ac oherwydd hynny mae’r Gymdeithas yn cefnogi Gwerth Gorau. Nid oes a wnelo hyn ag awdurdodau sydd yn tan-berfformio, ac yn gwario llawer; mae a wnelo ag awdurdodau na chawsant fargen deg erioed oherwydd y bwlch yn y fformwla. Yr wyf yn dweud hynny wrth David Davies o hyd, gan ei fod bob tro’n camgynrychioli’r awdurdodau hynny yn y Siambr hon.

He mentioned benefit claimants and stated that the formula was not weighted correctly. He must realise that we have a range of other measures to deal with deprivation, such as entitlement to free school meals, the education formula and low socio-economic group household. All those things are taken into account. Using calculations based on average wage would disadvantage areas with a high number of pensioners on income support. Those things must be accounted for when trying to obtain a fair formula.

Soniodd am y rheini a oedd yn hawlio budd-daliadau a nododd nad oedd pwysiad y fformwla’n gywir. Rhaid iddo sylweddoli fod gennym amrywiaeth o fesurau eraill i ddelio ag amddifadedd, fel hawl i gael cinio ysgol yn rhad ac am ddim, y fformwla addysg a grŵp cartrefi cymdeithasol-economaidd isel. Caiff yr holl bethau hynny eu hystyried. Byddai cyfrifo ar sail cyflog cyfartalog yn anfanteisiol i ardaloedd gyda llawer o bensiynwyr ar ategiad incwm. Rhaid ystyried y pethau hynny wrth geisio cael gafael ar fformwla deg.

David Davies also mentioned organisational efficiency. The Partnership Council acknowledged that some councils excelled at providing services, while others were not so good. It is difficult to point a finger at any one authority. However, I am sure that councils will want to reflect on the wider implications of the findings. We can all learn from this important work that has taken so long to complete. It is important that we can look at this carefully and do the right thing for local authorities throughout Wales because some people have suffered for many years, and not just the last year since David took his seat.

Soniodd David Davies hefyd am effeithlonrwydd sefydliadol. Yr oedd y Cyngor Partneriaeth yn cydnabod bod rhai cynghorau’n rhagori o ran darparu gwasanaethau, tra nad oedd eraill gystal. Mae’n anodd pwyntio’r bys at un awdurdod. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd cynghorau eisiau ystyried goblygiadau ehangach y casgliadau. Gallwn i gyd ddysgu o’r gwaith pwysig hwn sydd wedi cymryd cymaint o amser i’w gwblhau. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gallu edrych ar hyn yn ofalus a gwneud y peth iawn i awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru oherwydd bod rhai pobl wedi dioddef ers nifer o flynyddoedd, ac nid ers y llynedd yn unig ers i David Davies ennill ei sedd.

On Phil Williams’s amendment 3, as usual he used a reasoned approach. He spoke about regression and he was flying after that. I must admit that he lost me to some extent, but that is what happens when you give such a formula to a Professor of Astrophysics; I say that with the greatest of respect. Huw Lewis was brave to question Phil on sparsity but it was a good point. However, our secret weapon was Dr John Marek. This type of formula is bedtime reading for Phil and John and no doubt they could have spent days enjoying it, but we do not have that amount of time. Phil made an important point and we support his amendment 3. I thank him for stating that it is fine work. Many people have spent hours on this report and it cannot be cast aside. In my opening, I said that the distribution sub-group would consider sparsity and unmet need along with many other issues.

O ran gwelliant 3 Phil Williams, fel arfer defnyddiodd agwedd resymegol. Siaradodd am atchweliad ac yr oedd yn hwylio ymlaen ar ôl hynny. Rhaid imi gyfaddef iddo fy ngholli i ryw raddau, ond hynny sy’n digwydd pan roddwch fformwla o’r fath i Athro Astroffiseg; dywedaf hynny gyda’r parch mwyaf. Yr oedd Huw Lewis yn ddewr i gwestiynu Phil ynghylch teneurwydd poblogaeth ond yr oedd yn bwynt da. Fodd bynnag, ein harf cudd oedd Dr John Marek. Bydd Phil a John yn darllen y math hwn o fformwla yn eu gwelyau ac yn sicr byddai’r ddau ohonynt wedi gallu treulio dyddiau yn ei fwynhau, ond nid oes gennym gymaint â hynny o amser. Gwnaeth Phil bwynt pwysig a chefnogwn ei welliant 3. Diolchaf iddo am nodi ei fod yn waith da. Mae nifer o bobl wedi treulio oriau ar yr adroddiad hwn ac ni ellir ei wthio o’r neilltu. Yn fy natganiad agoriadol, dywedais y byddai’r is-grŵp dosbarthu yn ystyried teneurwydd poblogaeth ac angen nas bodlonwyd ynghyd â nifer o faterion eraill.

Brian Gibbons said rightly that if we reject this formula, we need proposals for an alternative approach. As Pauline Jarman said, many authorities do not collate data that would allow detailed analysis of areas like social services. That is the true picture and the report addresses those problems along with other practical constraints. We need to build on that, but it is not easy and there are many pitfalls along the way. Christine Chapman spoke about deprivation to which we cannot afford to close our eyes anymore. Something positive must come out of this to change the lives of disadvantaged people throughout Wales who never take for granted what so many others do. This formula must address that. It is important that we take these points seriously.

Yr oedd Brian Gibbons yn iawn i ddweud pe byddem yn gwrthod y fformwla hon, bod angen inni gael cynigion ynghylch ffordd arall o fynd ati. Fel y dywedodd Pauline Jarman, nid yw pob awdurdod yn casglu data a fyddai’n galluogi dadansoddiad manwl o feysydd fel gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae hynny’n ddarlun gwir ac mae’r adroddiad yn rhoi sylw i’r problemau hynny ynghyd â chyfyngiadau ymarferol eraill. Mae angen inni adeiladu ar hynny, ond nid yw’n hawdd ac mae nifer o faglau ar hyd y ffordd. Siaradodd Christine Chapman am amddifadedd na allwn fforddio i’w anwybyddu rhagor. Rhaid i rywbeth cadarnhaol ddod o hyn i newid bywydau pobl ddifreintiedig ledled Cymru nad ydynt byth yn cymryd yn ganiataol y pethau mae pobl eraill yn eu cymryd yn ganiataol. Rhaid i’r fformwla roi sylw i hynny. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn meddwl am y pwyntiau hyn o ddifrif.

I was touched at the beginning when the ace fairytale teller, Glyn Davies, started to speak with such understanding, but then the story collapsed and he reverted to his Tory ways. Since the hunting debate, I have realised that Glyn is a great fairy story teller because I was riveted during that. We should donate his contribution to the National Library in Great Britain. It was a real fairy story. Nevertheless, he said—

Cefais fy nghyfwrdd pan ddechreuodd y chwedleuwr gwych, Glyn Davies, siarad gyda chymaint o ddealltwriaeth, ond aeth y stori ar chwâl wrth iddo droi’n ôl at ei hen ddulliau Torïaidd. Ers y ddadl ar hela, yr wyf wedi sylweddoli bod Glyn yn chwedleuwr gwych oherwydd yr oeddwn wedi fy nghyfareddu’n llwyr yn ystod y ddadl honno. Dylem roi ei gyfraniad i’r Llyfrgell Genedlaethol ym Mhrydain Fawr. Yr oedd yn chwedl go iawn. Er gwaethaf hynny, dywedodd—

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 68

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 68

Yr oeddwn yn meddwl mai yn Aberystwyth yr oedd y Llyfrgell Genedlaethol.

I thought that the National Library was in Aberystwyth.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 68

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Aberystwyth. That is right.

Aberystwyth. Mae hynny’n iawn.

We have talked about the use of Christian names being too warm. I call him Glyn, but that does not mean that I do not recognise him as a Tory who did nothing for the good of the people of Wales for years. He should be driven out, but I still call him Glyn. You can be reasonably polite but not too warm.

Yr ydym wedi sôn bod defnyddio enwau cyntaf yn rhy gynnes. Yr wyf yn ei alw ef yn Glyn, ond nid yw hynny’n golygu nad wyf yn ei weld fel Ceidwadwr na wnaeth unrhyw beth da er lles pobl Cymru am flynyddoedd. Dylai gael ei yrru allan, ond yr wyf yn dal i’w alw’n Glyn. Gallwch fod yn weddol gwrtais ond heb fod yn rhy gynnes.

He said, unfortunately, that this formula favours Labour authorities. He has the audacity to make such a comment. It is completely independent and has been independently scrutinised. I have mentioned two of the scrutineers, and Professor Phil Murphy from the University of Wales, Swansea will join them to consider the result of the consultation. It cannot be more independent than that. It has been totally open, as I have always said. I have been honest about the fact that there are pluses and minuses; there are bound to be when changing a formula. However, what is important is that we are different from the Tories because we care about people. We do not mouth words or use rhetoric. We say that we want to change things because we care about people. That is why we are looking carefully at the transitional situation.

Yn anffodus, dywedodd fod y fformwla hon yn ffafrio awdurdodau Llafur. Mae ganddo’r wyneb i wneud sylw o’r fath. Mae’n gwbl annibynnol ac fe’i harchwiliwyd yn gwbl annibynnol. Yr wyf wedi enwi dau o’r archwilwyr, a bydd yr Athro Phil Murphy o Brifysgol Cymru, Abertawe yn ymuno â hwy i ystyried canlyniad yr ymgynghoriad. Ni all fod yn fwy annibynnol na hynny. Bu’n gwbl agored, fel y dywedais o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Yr wyf wedi bod yn onest ynghylch y ffaith bod agweddau cadarnhaol a negyddol; mae hynny’n annatod wrth newid fformwla. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sydd yn bwysig yw ein bod yn wahanol i’r Ceidwadwyr oherwydd ein bod yn poeni am bobl. Nid ydym yn cega nac yn defnyddio rhethreg. Yr ydym yn dweud ein bod eisiau newid pethau oherwydd ein bod yn malio am bobl. Oherwydd hynny yr ydym yn edrych yn ofalus ar y sefyllfa drosiannol.

That is a response to several of the points made. I am glad that the last item of today’s business has been moved to tomorrow, because originally, Deputy Presiding Officer, you gave me only five minutes, but I will finish now. I have listened carefully to what has been said and it is worth emphasising that these points are a set of proposals that are subject to consultation today. We have received several responses from a range of bodies and I will come back to you in the autumn with a summary of the responses. Where these suggest that changes to the proposals are justified, they can possibly be made. However, we must look carefully at it, because this piece of work should not be tampered with lightly.

Mae hynny’n ymateb i nifer o’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd. Yr wyf yn falch bod eitem olaf busnes heddiw wedi’i symud i yfory, oherwydd yn wreiddiol, Ddirprwy Lywydd, dim ond pum munud a roesoch imi, ond gorffennaf yn awr. Yr wyf wedi gwrando’n astud ar yr hyn a ddywedwyd ac mae’n werth pwysleisio bod y pwyntiau hyn yn set o gynigion sydd yn atebol i ymgynghoriad heddiw. Yr ydym wedi derbyn sawl ymateb gan amrywiol gyrff a byddaf yn dychwelyd atoch yn ystod yr hydref gyda chrynodeb o’r ymatebion. Pan fydd y rhain yn awgrymu y gellir cyfiawnhau newid y cynigion, efallai y cânt eu gwneud. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni edrych yn ofalus arno, oherwydd ni ddylid newid y darn hwn o waith heb ei ddwys ystyried.

While, inevitably, we are all interested in the impact on our own areas, most Members will also focus on the broader policy and service issues raised in this report. I am confident that the people of Wales would expect us to take a broader view while ensuring that the interests of our own constituencies are given the attention that they deserve. The new formula includes technically improved measures of population dispersion, and the Welsh Local Government Association agreed that these should be used in the review. I am confident that the analysts who designed them have done a rigorous job.

Yn anochel, mae gennym i gyd ddiddordeb yn yr effaith ar ein hardaloedd, ond mae’r rhan fwyaf o Aelodau hefyd yn canolbwyntio ar y materion polisi a gwasanaeth ehangach a godir yn yr adroddiad hwn. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog y bydd pobl Cymru’n disgwyl inni gymryd golwg ehangach tra’n sicrhau bod buddiannau ein hetholwyr ein hunain yn cael y sylw haeddiannol. Mae’r dulliau o fesur gwasgariad y boblogaeth a ddefnyddir yn y fformwla newydd yn well o safbwynt technegol, a chytunodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru y dylid defnyddio’r rhain yn yr adolygiad. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog bod y dadansoddwyr a’u cynlluniodd wedi gwneud gwaith trwyadl.

I am disappointed that some people have been so dismissive and negative towards the proposals at this early stage. Under the proposed new formula, seven of the eight authorities with the highest standard spending assessment per head are rural authorities, which is also the case under the existing formula. Under the new formula, the SSAs for the nine authorities, which can reasonably be classed as the most rural in Wales, is less than £0.5 million below the existing total for those areas using the 2000-01 settlement figures. The four authorities among those that lose do so mainly because they have relatively low levels of deprivation. That is Powys, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire.

Yr wyf yn siomedig bod rhai pobl wedi bod mor ddiystyriol a negyddol eu hagwedd at y cynigion ar y cam cynnar hwn. Dan y fformwla newydd a gynigir, bydd saith o’r wyth awdurdod sydd â’r asesiad gwariant safonol uchaf y pen yn awdurdodau gwledig, sef yr un sefyllfa dan y fformwla bresennol. Dan y fformwla newydd, bydd yr asesiad gwariant safonol ar gyfer y naw awdurdod, a ddosberthir yn rhesymol fel y mwyaf gwledig yng Nghymru, yn llai na £0.5 miliwn dan y cyfanswm presennol ar gyfer yr ardaloedd hynny gan ddefnyddio ffigurau setliad 2000-01. Mae’r pedwar awdurdod sydd ymysg y rheini a fydd ar eu colled yn gwneud hynny’n bennaf oherwydd fod ganddynt lefelau gweddol isel o amddifadedd. Hynny yw Powys, Ceredigion, Sir Gaerfyrddin a Sir Fynwy.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 70

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

Do you acknowledge that some wards within Powys have extremely high levels of deprivation, such as Ystradgynlais and Aber-craf, which are so deprived that they have just been awarded assisted area status, and the north areas such as Machynlleth?

A ydych yn cydnabod bod gan rai wardiau ym Mhowys lefelau arbennig o uchel o amddifadedd, fel Ystradgynlais ac Aber-craf, sydd mor ddifreintiedig fel iddynt gael eu dyfarnu â statws ardaloedd a gynorthwyir, ac ardaloedd y gogledd fel Machynlleth?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 70

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I acknowledge that there is some deprivation there. However, as in many larger areas, they are subsumed by more affluent areas when the formula is used. That does not mean that I do not recognise it, Kirsty. It may be that in the short term, we will need to mitigate the affects of this new formula. I am concerned about Wrexham and Bridgend, which Janice mentioned; Flintshire, about which Tom has spoken to me and which Alison mentioned; the Vale of Glamorgan, about which Jane Hutt has already made representations to me, David; and Torfaen and Cardiff where there are more cuts. That is not to mention what I have just said about Powys, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Monmouthshire. I am concerned about all of them, because I am the Secretary for Local Government and Housing. I do not discriminate—I must do the best that I can for everybody. I do not get any satisfaction from seeing anybody’s council tax being raised all the time. I do not know what some people think I am here for.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod rhywfaint o amddifadedd yno. Fodd bynnag, fel mewn nifer o ardaloedd mwy, cânt eu hamgylchynu gan ardaloedd sy’n fwy cefnog pan ddefnyddir y fformwla. Nid yw hynny’n golygu nad wyf yn ei gydnabod, Kirsty. Efallai y bydd angen inni liniaru effeithiau’r fformwla newydd hon yn y tymor byr. Yr wyf yn pryderu am Wrecsam a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr, fel y soniodd Janice; Sir y Fflint y mae Tom wedi ei drafod gyda mi; a soniodd Alison am Fro Morgannwg, ac y mae Jane Hutt eisoes wedi cyflwyno sylwadau imi am y Fro, David; a Thorfaen a Chaerdydd lle mae mwy o doriadau. Heb sôn am yr hyn yr wyf newydd ei ddweud am Bowys, Sir Gaerfyrddin, Ceredigion a Sir Fynwy. Yr wyf yn pryderu am y rhain i gyd, gan mai fi yw’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai. Nid wyf eisiau gwahaniaethu—rhaid imi wneud fy ngorau glas ar ran pawb. Nid wyf yn cael unrhyw foddhad o weld y dreth gyngor i unrhyw un yn codi drwy’r amser. Ni wn beth mae rhai pobl yn credu yw fy swyddogaeth yma.

That is why I want to look positively at whether we can craft some type of transitional scheme, and that is what I will be doing because a transitional scheme has to be the answer. We might say ‘well, you said that there might not be some sort of damping in the future’, or transitional scheme as we might call it now, but if it is necessary, we must be prepared to do it, because we are talking about hardship to people. Such overnight changes cannot be made—you cannot pluck £2.5 million out of a community or whatever overnight. You must be able to do things with a reasonable amount of change. For this reason, the consulted forum on finance has agreed that we should establish an ad hoc working group to consider the possible form of that scheme. There are various technical options available, but at the end of the day we will all be concerned that the cost of any scheme is reasonable.

Oherwydd hynny yr wyf eisiau edrych yn gadarnhaol i weld a ydym yn gallu llunio rhyw fath o gynllun trosiannol, a hynny byddaf fi’n ei wneud oherwydd mai cynllun trosiannol yw’r unig ateb. Gallem ddweud ‘wel, dywedoch chi efallai na fyddai rhyw fath o grant lliniaru yn y dyfodol’, neu gynllun trosiannol fel y gallem ni ei alw yn awr, ond os yw’n angenrheidiol, rhaid inni fod yn barod i wneud hynny oherwydd ein bod yn sôn am galedi pobl. Ni ellir gwneud newidiadau o’r fath dros nos—ni allwch dynnu £2.5 miliwn oddi ar gymuned neu beth bynnag dros nos. Rhaid ichi allu gwneud pethau gyda maint rhesymol o newid. I’r perwyl hwn, mae’r fforwm yr ymgynghorwyd ag ef ar gyllid wedi cytuno y dylem sefydlu gweithgor ad hoc i ystyried ffurf bosibl y cynllun hwnnw. Mae dewisiadau technegol amrywiol ar gael, ond yn y pen draw byddwn i gyd am fod yn sicr fod cost unrhyw gynllun yn rhesymol.

I have no prior knowledge of what next year’s local government revenue settlement will be. That will be a decision for my friend the Finance Secretary, who is listening to this debate. She will announce that when she presents her draft budget in the autumn. Everything is relative. I know that there are people living in properties that have high council tax bands, who do not have high incomes. On the other hand, let me ask any one of you to tell me that you disagree with a formula that provides an opportunity to improve the distribution of funds to the most deprived parts of Wales, and to those areas where population dispersion increases the cost of providing services. That is the challenge that we face. I am sure that we will rise to that, but I need your support.

Nid oes gennyf wybodaeth ymlaen llaw o setliad grant refeniw llywodraeth leol y flwyddyn nesaf. Bydd hynny’n benderfyniad i’m ffrind yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, sy’n gwrando ar y ddadl hon. Bydd hi’n cyhoeddi hynny pan fydd yn cyflwyno ei chyllideb ddrafft yn yr hydref. Mae popeth yn gymharol. Gwn fod pobl yn byw mewn eiddo sydd mewn bandiau uchel y dreth gyngor ac nad oes ganddynt incwm uchel. Ar y llaw arall, gadewch imi ofyn i unrhyw un ohonoch ddweud wrthyf eich bod yn anghytuno â fformwla sy’n rhoi cyfle i wella dosbarthiad cronfeydd i rannau mwyaf amddifad Cymru, a’r ardaloedd hynny lle mae gwasgariad y boblogaeth yn cynyddu’r gost o ddarparu gwasanaethau. Dyna’r her sy’n ein hwynebu. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn codi at hynny, ond mae angen eich cefnogaeth arnaf.

Gwelliant 1 Janet Ryder t. 71

Amendment 1 Janet Ryder p. 71

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 26

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 2 Janet Ryder t. 72

Amendment 2 Janet Ryder p. 72

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 26

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 3 Janet Ryder t. 73

Amendment 3 Janet Ryder p. 73

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 53 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (53)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 4 Peter Black t. 74

Amendment 4 Peter Black p. 74

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 26

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 5 David Davies t. 74

Amendment 5 David Davies p. 74

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 26

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 6 David Davies t. 75

Amendment 6 David Davies p. 75

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 12 YmatalAbstain 15 Yn erbynAgainst 26

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (12)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Christine Humphreys
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (15)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Cynnig Peter Law t. 77

Motion Peter Law p. 77

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Janet Davies
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 78

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

The Assembly is entitled to an explanation from the Executive. The amended motion has been rejected. Does this mean that there is no policy on which to consult as regards local government spending? We are entitled to an answer.

Mae gan y Cynulliad hawl i eglurhad gan y Weithrediaeth. Gwrthodwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio. A yw hyn yn golygu nad oes polisi i ymgynghori arno o ran gwariant llywodraeth leol? Mae gennym hawl i gael ateb.

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 78

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

It is fortunate that I am already standing here so that I can respond to that point of order. As far as I am concerned, I will reflect upon the result of the vote and I will take forward a consultation, because—

Mae’n ffodus fy mod eisoes yn sefyll yma fel y gallaf ymateb i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. O’m rhan i, byddaf yn myfyrio ynghylch canlyniad y bleidlais ac af ymlaen ag ymgynghoriad, oherwydd—

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 78

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

There is nothing on which to consult.

Nid oes dim i ymgynghori arno.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 78

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

We can consult on this issue—

Gallwn ymgynghori ar y mater hwn—

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

Order. We will not have a debate by shouting across the Chamber. You raised a point of order, Ieuan. Peter Law, as Assembly Secretary, has replied to that point of order. Is there a further point of order? I see that there is not. Therefore, we will continue with the next item of business.

Trefn. Ni chawn ddadl drwy weiddi ar draws y Siambr. Codasoch bwynt o drefn, Ieuan. Mae Peter Law, fel Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad, wedi ymateb i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. A oes pwynt o drefn pellach? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, byddwn yn parhau â’r eitem busnes nesaf.

Cynllun Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol

The Local Government Partnership Scheme

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Janet Ryder, amendment 3 in the name of Peter Black and amendment 4 in the name of David Davies.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Janet Ryder, gwelliant 3 yn enw Peter Black a gwelliant 4 yn enw David Davies.

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 78

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 79

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

My speech says that I am pleased to have the opportunity to propose this motion. I do not know about that. However, I am here to propose this motion in the name of the Business Secretary, Andrew Davies. The motion asks the Assembly to devise a scheme that will fulfil the requirements of section 113(1) and schedule 11 of the Government of Wales Act 1998.

Dywed fy araith fy mod yn falch o gael y cyfle i gynnig y cynnig hwn. Nid wyf yn sicr am hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yma i gynnig y cynnig hwn yn enw’r Trefnydd, Andrew Davies. Mae’r cynnig yn gofyn i’r Cynulliad ddyfeisio cynllun a fydd yn cyflawni gofynion adran 113(1) ac atodlen 11 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998.

These provisions require the Assembly to devise a scheme that sets out how it proposes, in the exercise of its functions, to sustain and promote local government in Wales. This motion also highlights the importance of a vibrant local government, which is central to the proper governance of Wales. It is also central to the Assembly’s desire to work in partnership with all parts of local government according to agreed priorities and, if possible, an agreed agenda.

Mae’r darpariaethau hyn yn mynnu bod y Cynulliad yn dyfeisio cynllun sydd yn nodi sut y mae’n bwriadu, wrth ymarfer ei swyddogaethau, gynnal a hyrwyddo llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn tynnu sylw hefyd at bwysigrwydd llywodraeth leol egnïol, sy’n ganolog i lywodraethu Cymru’n briodol. Mae hefyd yn ganolog i awydd y Cynulliad i weithio mewn partneriaeth â phob rhan o lywodraeth leol yn unol â blaenoriaethau cytûn ac, os oes modd, agenda gytûn.

The Government of Wales Act embodied the objectives of partnership and joint working in legislation, with statutory requirements for schemes and arrangements for working openly and inclusively with local government, the voluntary sector and business, while following the principles of sustainable development and equality of opportunity.

Ymgorfforodd Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru amcanion partneriaeth a gweithio ar y cyd mewn deddfwriaeth, gyda gofynion statudol am gynlluniau a threfniadau ar gyfer gweithio’n agored ac yn gynhwysol gyda llywodraeth leol, y sector gwirfoddol a busnes, gan ddilyn egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy a chyfle cyfartal.

The local government partnership scheme and the Partnership Council are the cornerstones of the Assembly’s relationship with local government in Wales. The two are inextricably linked with the Partnership Council, and its working groups are important vehicles by which local government makes an input to the Assembly’s policy making. It should result in better, more effective decision-making by both local government and the Assembly. The Partnership Council and its working groups have already shown their value in introducing greater realism into the Assembly’s policy proposals. They make an important contribution to the Assembly’s proposals for policy agreements, community strategies and guidance for local authorities on the new political management arrangements and new ethical framework required by the Local Government Bill, which will shortly return to the House of Lords.

Y cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol a’r Cyngor Partneriaeth yw conglfeini perthynas y Cynulliad â llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Mae cyswllt anorfod rhwng y ddau a’r Cyngor Partneriaeth, ac mae ei grwpiau gwaith yn gyfryngau pwysig i lywodraeth leol roi mewnbwn i waith llunio polisi’r Cynulliad. Dylai arwain at benderfynu gwell, mwy effeithiol gan lywodraeth leol a chan y Cynulliad. Mae’r Cyngor Partneriaeth a’i grwpiau gwaith wedi profi eu gwerth eisoes wrth gyflwyno mwy o realaeth i gynigion polisi’r Cynulliad. Rhoddant gyfraniad pwysig i gynigion y Cynulliad am gytundebau polisi, strategaethau cymunedol a chyfarwyddyd i awdurdodau lleol ar y trefniadau rheoli gwleidyddol newydd a’r fframwaith moesegol newydd a fynnir gan y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol, a fydd yn dychwelyd cyn hir i Dŷ’r Arglwyddi.

The Local Government and Housing Committee and the Assembly in Plenary will have an opportunity to consider these groups’ output at every relevant stage. While previous meetings of the Partnership Council have given local government and the Assembly an opportunity for what is known as ‘a full and frank exchange of views’, yesterday’s meeting of the Partnership Council reached a new level of constructive debate. We agreed a work programme that will enable the council to focus on the future development of policies relevant to local government in Wales and focus more closely on meeting the needs and circumstances of the people of Wales.

Bydd gan y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai a’r Cynulliad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn gyfle i ystyried allbynnau’r grwpiau hyn ar bob cam perthnasol. Er bod cyfarfodydd blaenorol y Cyngor Partneriaeth wedi rhoi cyfle i lywodraeth leol a’r Cynulliad gael yr hyn a elwir yn ‘gyfnewid barn llawn a didwyll’, cyrhaeddwyd lefel newydd o drafod adeiladol yng nghyfarfod y Cyngor Partneriaeth ddoe. Cytunasom ar raglen waith a fydd yn galluogi’r cyngor i ganolbwyntio ar ddatblygu polisïau yn y dyfodol sy’n berthnasol i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru ac i ganolbwyntio’n fanylach ar fodloni anghenion ac amgylchiadau pobl Cymru.

The local government partnership scheme sets out the ground rules by which the Assembly and local government can effectively work together on a day-to-day basis to develop and implement policy. The scheme constitutes the software that will govern the relationship between the National Assembly and local government. It sets out the arrangements for consultation, sharing information and joint working, in addition to what local government can expect from the National Assembly in terms of partnership, the operation of the new policy agreements and the implementation of the government’s modernisation agenda. The scheme will ensure that dialogue is constant. This will minimise the potential for the surprises and shocks that have soured relations between local and central government in the past. There is much in this document that local government will find helpful, including a commitment from the National Assembly that its executive agencies and sponsored bodies will cooperate fully with local government in preparing community strategies and have regard for those plans in implementing the Assembly’s priorities.

Mae’r cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol yn gosod y rheolau sylfaenol y gall y Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol eu dilyn er mwyn gweithio’n effeithiol gyda’i gilydd o ddydd i ddydd i ddatblygu a gweithredu polisi. Y cynllun yw’r meddalwedd a fydd yn rheoli’r berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a llywodraeth leol. Mae’n nodi’r trefniadau ar gyfer ymgynghori, rhannu gwybodaeth a gweithio ar y cyd, yn ogystal â’r hyn y gall llywodraeth leol ei ddisgwyl oddi wrth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o ran partneriaeth, gweithredu’r cytundebau polisi newydd a gweithredu agenda moderneiddio’r Llywodraeth. Bydd y cynllun yn sicrhau bod y ddeialog yn un barhaus. Bydd hyn yn lleihau’r posibiliad o ddigwyddiadau annisgwyl neu ysgytwol sydd wedi suro cysylltiadau rhwng llywodraeth leol a chanolog yn y gorffennol. Mae llawer yn y ddogfen hon a fydd yn ddefnyddiol i lywodraeth leol, gan gynnwys ymrwymiad gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol y bydd ei asiantaethau gweithredol a’r cyrff a noddir ganddo’n cydweithredu’n llawn â llywodraeth leol wrth baratoi strategaethau cymunedol ac yn rhoi sylw i’r cynlluniau hynny wrth weithredu blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad.

In developing a scheme that sets out how the Assembly will promote local government in Wales, we and our partners in local government have been clear about the sort of local government that we wish to promote. It is the sort of local government that will engage continuously with local communities, implement Best Value and will take timely action to remedy any deficiencies that are exposed by the performance review process.

Wrth ddatblygu cynllun sy’n nodi sut y bydd y Cynulliad yn hyrwyddo llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, buom ni a’n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol yn bendant ynghylch y math o lywodraeth leol y dymunwn ei hybu. Y math o lywodraeth leol ydyw a fydd mewn cysylltiad parhaus â chymunedau lleol, yn rhoi Gwerth Gorau ar waith ac yn cymryd camau prydlon i gywiro unrhyw ddiffygion a amlygir drwy’r broses adolygu perfformiad.

I am grateful to the Welsh Local Government Association, and to the other bodies representing local government, for their assistance in preparing this scheme. The preparation of the document was, in itself, an example of partnership in action. The scheme was also the subject of extensive and detailed consultation. The Partnership Council agreed the consultation draft of this scheme at its meeting in February and asked that it be circulated to all sectors of local government for comment, including to each of the 750 community councils in Wales. Forty-three responses were received to the consultation exercise. All except two of those that responded were in favour of the scheme and all the comments that were made have been incorporated into the revised draft of the scheme.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, a’r cyrff eraill sy’n cynrychioli llywodraeth leol, am eu cymorth wrth baratoi’r cynllun hwn. Yr oedd y gwaith o baratoi’r ddogfen, ynddo’i hun, yn enghraifft o bartneriaeth ar waith. Cafwyd ymgynghori helaeth a manwl ar y cynllun hefyd. Cytunodd y Cyngor Partneriaeth ar ddrafft ymgynghorol y cynllun hwn yn ei gyfarfod yn Chwefror a gofynnodd am ei gylchredeg i bob sector o lywodraeth leol er mwyn cael eu sylwadau, gan gynnwys pob un o’r 750 o gynghorau cymuned yng Nghymru. Derbyniwyd 43 o ymatebion i’r ymarfer ymgynghori. Yr oedd pob un ond dau o’r rhai a ymatebodd o blaid y cynllun ac mae’r holl sylwadau a wnaethpwyd wedi eu cynnwys yn y drafft diwygiedig o’r cynllun.

The Partnership Council met yesterday, endorsing the revised scheme and commending it to the National Assembly. If the Assembly approves the scheme today, we intend to send copies to all county and county borough councils, community and town councils, police, fire and national park authorities in Wales by early August. The Government of Wales Act 1998 also requires that a report be prepared annually on the implementation of the scheme, and that the Assembly periodically reviews its contents. Under the Standing Orders the Assembly should consider each such report in Plenary.

Cyfarfu’r Cyngor Partneriaeth ddoe, gan gefnogi’r cynllun diwygiedig a’i gymeradwyo i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Os bydd y Cynulliad yn cymeradwyo’r cynllun heddiw, bwriadwn anfon copïau i’r holl gynghorau sir a bwrdeistref sirol, cynghorau tref a chymuned, awdurdodau’r heddlu, yr awdurdodau tân ac awdurdodau’r parciau cenedlaethol yng Nghymru erbyn dechrau Awst. Mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 hefyd yn mynnu y caiff adroddiad ei baratoi bob blwyddyn ar weithrediad y cynllun, ac y bydd y Cynulliad yn adolygu ei gynnwys o bryd i’w gilydd. O dan y Rheolau Sefydlog dylai’r Cynulliad ystyried pob adroddiad o’r fath mewn Cyfarfod Llawn.

I will now consider the four amendments that have been tabled to Andrew Davies’s motion.

Ystyriaf yn awr y pedwar gwelliant a gyflwynwyd i gynnig Andrew Davies.

Janet Ryder’s amendment 1 proposes that there is a need to maximise the legislative powers available to the Assembly and to avoid the further loss of devolved power to other Government departments. While I agree—and I am sure most other Members would also—that there is a need to maximise the legislative powers available to the Assembly, the words of the amendment, ‘the further loss of devolved powers’, is not an accurate description of what is happening in relation to clauses 5 and 6 of the Local Government Bill. The issue is whether the Assembly should be given new powers, which those in the know call ‘Henry VIII’ powers, that would be available to the Secretary of State to amend primary legislation by order.

Mae gwelliant 1 Janet Ryder yn awgrymu bod angen gwneud y gorau o’r pwerau deddfwriaethol sydd ar gael i’r Cynulliad ac osgoi colli rhagor o bŵer datganoledig i adrannau eraill y Llywodraeth. Er y cytunaf—ac yr wyf yn sicr y cytunai’r rhan fwyaf o’r Aelodau eraill hefyd—fod angen gwneud y gorau o’r pwerau deddfwriaethol sydd ar gael i’r Cynulliad, nid yw geiriau’r gwelliant, ‘colli rhagor o bwerau datganoledig’, yn ddisgrifiad cywir o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd o ran cymalau 5 a 6 Mesur Llywodraeth Leol. Y cwestiwn yw a ddylai’r Cynulliad gael pwerau newydd, y mae’r rhai sydd yn gwybod yn eu galw’n bwerau ‘Harri VIII’, rhai a fyddai ar gael i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol er mwyn diwygio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol drwy orchymyn.

In addition, the amendment as it stands is not relevant to the purpose of this debate, which is to adopt the local government partnership scheme, not to debate the modernisation of local government. We are not losing any powers, but we failed to get some powers last week. I gave a statement on that.

Yn ogystal, nid yw’r gwelliant fel y mae’n sefyll yn berthnasol i ddiben y ddadl hon, sef mabwysiadu’r cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol, nid trafod moderneiddio llywodraeth leol. Nid ydym yn colli unrhyw bwerau, ond methasom â chael rhai pwerau yr wythnos diwethaf. Gwneuthum ddatganiad ar hynny.

Janet Ryder’s second amendment is broadly acceptable, but I wonder why she felt it necessary to move it. The motion as it stands already refers to all parts of local government. The scheme also refers specifically to the component parts of local government.

Mae ail welliant Janet Ryder yn dderbyniol ar y cyfan, ond pam tybed y teimlai fod angen ei gynnig. Mae’r cynnig fel y mae yn cyfeirio eisoes at bob rhan o lywodraeth leol. Mae’r cynllun hefyd yn cyfeirio’n benodol at rannau cyfansoddol llywodraeth leol.

I will take Peter Black’s and David Davies’s amendments together. Both amendments are not relevant to the narrow scope of the current motion, which focuses on the adoption of the scheme. The amendments, however, raise issues of importance to the modernisation of the new political management structures, in particular. Both Members would be welcome to propose those amendments in a future debate about local government modernisation in Wales.

Trafodaf welliannau Peter Black a David Davies gyda’i gilydd. Nid yw’r naill welliant na’r llall yn berthnasol i gwmpas cyfyng y cynnig presennol, sy’n canolbwyntio ar fabwysiadu’r cynllun. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gwelliannau’n codi materion o bwys i foderneiddio’r strwythurau rheoli gwleidyddol newydd, yn benodol. Byddai croeso i’r ddau Aelod gynnig y gwelliannau hynny mewn dadl yn y dyfodol am foderneiddio llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

To sum up, the scheme is an important document. It notes how the Assembly proposes, in exercising its functions, to sustain and promote a local government in which we can all take pride in Wales. I urge the Assembly to support Andrew Davies’s motion unamended. That is the best way forward in the interest of local government and the Assembly.

I grynhoi, mae’r cynllun yn ddogfen bwysig. Mae’n nodi sut y bwriada’r Cynulliad, wrth ymarfer ei swyddogaethau, gynnal a hyrwyddo llywodraeth leol y gallwn oll ymfalchïo ynddi yng Nghymru. Anogaf y Cynulliad i gefnogi cynnig Andrew Davies heb ei ddiwygio. Dyna’r ffordd orau ymlaen er budd llywodraeth leol a’r Cynulliad.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 83

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

I propose amendment 1. At the end of b) add:

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ar ddiwedd b) ychwaneger:

Janet Ryder (continued) spoken in English p. 83

Janet Ryder (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

I also propose amendment 2. In line 4 of point c), after ‘all parts of’ delete ‘the’.

Cynigiaf hefyd welliant 2. Yn llinell 4 o bwynt c) yn y Saesneg, dileer y ‘the’ ar ôl ‘all parts of’

Janet Ryder (continued) spoken in English p. 83

Janet Ryder (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

At the end of point c) delete full stop and add:

Ar ddiwedd pwynt c), dileer yr atalnod llawn ac ychwaneger:

, recognising the need to forge strong links with local town and community councils, the national parks in Wales, and the fire and police authorities, in addition to unitary authorities.

, gan gydnabod yr angen i feithrin cysylltiadau cryfion â’r cynghorau tref a chymuned lleol, parciau cenedlaethol Cymru a’r awdurdodau tân a heddlu, yn ogystal â’r awdurdodau unedol.

I declare an interest as a member of a town council.

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o gyngor tref.

This partnership with local government offers a way forward that, hopefully, will lead to a better way of operating than in the past. It should be possible, through the partnership scheme, to reach effective policy agreements between local government and the National Assembly. The consultation document on policy agreements that is to be sent out lays the foundation for that. However, the success of these partnerships depends on co-operation and the determination of all sides. Each must value and respect the other.

Mae’r bartneriaeth hon â llywodraeth leol yn cynnig ffordd ymlaen a fydd, gobeithio, yn arwain at well dull o weithredu nag yn y gorffennol. Dylai fod yn bosibl, drwy’r cynllun partneriaeth, ddod i gytundebau polisi effeithiol rhwng llywodraeth leol a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae’r ddogfen ymgynghorol ar gytundebau polisi sydd i’w hanfon allan yn gosod y sylfaen ar gyfer hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae llwyddiant y partneriaethau hyn yn dibynnu ar gydweithrediad a phenderfyniad ar bob ochr. Rhaid i bob un werthfawrogi a pharchu ei gilydd.

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales welcomes this as a way forward. However, we recognise that there are more layers to local government than just the county councils. There are many town and community councils which also play a role in local government, and that role could become even more significant. They are increasingly taking over the provision of services previously supplied by county authorities. They are a vital part of this partnership. However, although they have a seat around the Partnership Council table, they are not given the prominence that they should have in this document. That also applies to the fire authorities, police authorities and national parks. They are all-important partners. That is why I have emphasised their contribution by including them in amendment 2.

Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn croesawu hyn fel ffordd ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, cydnabyddwn fod mwy o haenau o lywodraeth leol na’r cynghorau sir yn unig. Mae llawer o gynghorau tref a chymuned sydd hefyd yn chwarae rhan mewn llywodraeth leol, a gallai’r rhan honno ddod yn bwysicach fyth. Maent yn ymgymryd fwyfwy â darparu gwasanaethau a ddarperid yn flaenorol gan awdurdodau sir. Maent yn rhan hanfodol o’r bartneriaeth hon. Fodd bynnag, er bod ganddynt sedd wrth fwrdd y Cyngor Partneriaeth, ni roddir iddynt yr amlygrwydd y dylent ei gael yn y ddogfen hon. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd am yr awdurdodau tân, awdurdodau’r heddlu a’r parciau cenedlaethol. Maent yn bartneriaid holl bwysig. Dyna pam y pwysleisiais eu cyfraniad drwy eu cynnwys yng ngwelliant 2.

We support Peter Black’s amendment 3 and agree that the Partnership Council should seek to maximise openness, inclusivity and accountability as part of the modernisation process. However, we do not support David Davies’s amendment 4 because it is irrelevant to the partnership scheme.

Cefnogwn welliant 3 Peter Black a chytunwn y dylai’r Cyngor Partneriaeth geisio gwneud llywodraeth leol mor agored, cynhwysol ac atebol â phosibl fel rhan o’r broses foderneiddio. Fodd bynnag, ni chefnogwn welliant 4 David Davies am ei fod yn amherthnasol i’r cynllun partneriaeth.

Despite all the goodwill in the world and despite Peter’s comments, the National Assembly may not now have the ability to fulfil all aspects of this partnership. Chapter 3 of the scheme mentions policy agreements. Point 3.3 notes that, within the context of policy agreements, the National Assembly for Wales will seek to give local authorities maximum discretion on spending decisions, and over time it will seek to simplify requirements for the production of formal plans and documents.

Er gwaethaf yr holl ewyllys da yn y byd ac er gwaethaf sylwadau Peter, mae’n bosibl nad yw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gallu cyflawni pob agwedd ar y bartneriaeth hon yn awr. Mae pennod 3 y cynllun yn sôn am gytundebau polisi. Mae pwynt 3.3 yn nodi, oddi mewn i gyd-destun cytundebau polisi, y bydd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’n ceisio rhoi’r rhyddid gweithredu mwyaf posibl i awdurdodau lleol ar benderfyniadau gwario, ac y bydd dros amser yn ceisio symleiddio gofynion am gyflwyno cynlluniau a dogfennau ffurfiol.

Since amendment 100 to the Local Government Bill was passed, the National Assembly for Wales’s ability to carry out this function has been severely curtailed. We are watching a major roadblock in the shape of the Local Government Bill being put up to stop Wales from acting within its devolved areas. That Bill explicitly undermines the Assembly. Clauses 5 and 6 of the Bill give the Secretary of State for Wales a series of powers, which he could use to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply any enactment requiring local authorities to produce plans or strategies. Clause 8 graciously obliges the Secretary of State to consult the Assembly but it does not oblige him to take notice of it. Therefore, another area is marked out of bounds to Assembly Members. I say ‘another’ because, in other devolved areas, the Assembly has been denied the right to act as it has seen fit. Genetically modified crops and performance-related pay are examples of areas where the lack of primary law-making powers has been a major obstacle.

Ers pasio gwelliant 100 i’r Mesur Llywodraeth Leol, mae gallu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i gyflawni’r swyddogaeth hon wedi ei gwtogi’n ddifrifol. Yr ydym yn gweld rhwystr ffordd mawr ar ffurf y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol yn cael ei godi i atal Cymru rhag gweithredu yn ei meysydd datganoledig. Mae’r Mesur hwnnw’n tanseilio’r Cynulliad mewn modd amlwg. Mae cymalau 5 a 6 y Mesur yn rhoi cyfres o bwerau i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, y gallai eu defnyddio i ddiwygio, diddymu, dirymu neu ddatgymhwyso unrhyw ddeddfiad sydd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gynhyrchu cynlluniau neu strategaethau. Mae cymal 8 yn haelionus yn gorfodi’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad ond nid yw’n ei orfodi i gymryd sylw ohono. Felly, mae maes arall wedi ei ddynodi’n un gwaharddedig i Aelodau Cynulliad. Dywedaf ‘arall’ oherwydd, mewn meysydd datganoledig eraill, gwrthodwyd yr hawl i’r Cynulliad weithredu fel y gwêl yn dda. Mae cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a thâl yn gysylltiedig â pherfformiad yn enghreifftiau o feysydd lle y bu diffyg pwerau deddfu sylfaenol yn faen tramgwydd mawr.

For the partnership scheme to work, local councils must know that the Assembly has the power to act. We do not—the Local Government Bill makes that plain—and we will not until we achieve equality with Scotland. Until we get primary law-making power we do not control the framework, and if we do not control the framework, we cannot decide our policies for ourselves. Time and time again, we have come up against the same roadblock, set up in Westminster. I know that Peter has worked hard to change this. This is the basis of amendment 1. The Westminster Government must take devolution seriously. There must be a commitment to increase the National Assembly’s powers at every opportunity, not to seek to decrease them when new legislation is passed in Westminster.

Er mwyn i’r cynllun partneriaeth weithio, rhaid i gynghorau lleol wybod bod gan y Cynulliad bŵer i weithredu. Nid yw hwnnw gennym—mae’r Mesur Llywodraeth Leol yn gwneud hynny’n eglur—ac ni fydd gennym hyd nes y sicrhawn gydraddoldeb â’r Alban. Hyd nes y cawn bŵer deddfu sylfaenol nid ydym yn rheoli’r fframwaith, ac os na reolwn y fframwaith, ni allwn benderfynu ein polisïau drosom ein hunain. Dro ar ôl tro, daethom at yr un rhwystr ffordd, a osodwyd yn San Steffan. Gwn fod Peter wedi gweithio’n galed i newid hyn. Dyma sail gwelliant 1. Rhaid i Lywodraeth San Steffan gymryd datganoli o ddifrif. Rhaid cael ymrwymiad i gynyddu pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar bob cyfle, nid i geisio eu lleihau pan gaiff deddfwriaeth newydd ei phasio yn San Steffan.

Peter has tried hard to change these clauses, but it strikes me that a Labour Cabinet in the Assembly blames a Labour Government in Westminster for failing to deliver the powers that the Assembly needs to act. I wonder who is to blame?

Mae Peter wedi ymdrechu’n galed i newid y cymalau hyn, ond mae’n fy nharo i fod Cabinet Llafur yn y Cynulliad yn bwrw’r bai ar Lywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan am fethu â throsglwyddo’r pwerau y mae ar y Cynulliad eu hangen i weithredu. Pwy sydd ar fai tybed?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 85

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I propose amendment 3. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwaneger at ddiwedd y cynnig:

Peter Black (continued) spoken in English p. 85

Peter Black (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I declare an interest as a member of Swansea City and County Council. There is much talk of partnership in the Assembly. Partnership is often difficult, but it is essential if we are to make progress. The many changes through which local government is going in Wales makes the local government partnership scheme an essential part of the modernisation process. It is important that local councils retain their independence and that we do not dictate to them. We should work with them to move forward with a common agenda.

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Mae llawer o sôn am bartneriaeth yn y Cynulliad. Mae partneriaeth yn anodd yn aml, ond mae’n holl bwysig os ydym i wneud cynnydd. Mae’r newidiadau lawer y mae llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru’n mynd drwyddynt yn peri bod y cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol yn rhan hanfodol o’r broses foderneiddio. Mae’n bwysig bod cynghorau lleol yn cadw eu hannibyniaeth ac nad ydym yn rhoi gorchmynion iddynt. Dylem weithio gyda hwy er mwyn symud ymlaen ag agenda gyffredin.

The so-called modernisation agenda poses a significant threat to the tradition of openness and accountability in local government. For many years, council committees have operated under a regime of open meetings, with agendas and background papers available to the public three days before a meeting, and a transparent hierarchy of responsibility leading to full council.

Mae’r agenda foderneiddio, fel y’i gelwir, yn rhoi’r traddodiad o weithredu agored ac atebol mewn llywodraeth leol o dan fygythiad. Ers blynyddoedd lawer, mae pwyllgorau cyngor wedi gweithredu o dan gyfundrefn o gyfarfodydd agored, gydag agendâu a phapurau cefndir sydd ar gael i’r cyhoedd dridiau cyn cyfarfod, a hierarchaeth dryloyw o gyfrifoldeb yn arwain at gyngor llawn.

I do not want to oppose change for the sake of it. There can be benefits in a cabinet system, coupled with effective scrutiny and inclusive policy development mechanisms. However, while cabinets can meet in secret and dictate scrutiny committee agendas, as happens in many councils, the process will remain flawed and fundamentally undemocratic.

Ni ddymunaf wrthwynebu newid fel diben ynddo’i hun. Gellir bod manteision mewn system gabinet, ynghyd ag archwilio effeithiol a dulliau datblygu polisi cynhwysol. Fodd bynnag, tra caiff cabinetau gyfarfod yn gyfrinachol a phennu agendâu pwyllgorau archwilio, fel a ddigwydd mewn llawer o gynghorau, bydd y broses yn parhau i fod yn ddiffygiol ac yn annemocrataidd yn y bôn.

It has been said that, if a cabinet opens its doors to press and public, there will be a closed pre-meeting. That may be true. However, the process of decision-making, officers’ informal advice and the reasons why decisions are made will be carried out in the open. Full council meetings are still preceded by group meetings that decide the outcome of debates. That will not change.

Dywedwyd y bydd rhag-gyfarfod caeedig os yw cabinet yn agor ei ddrysau i’r wasg a’r cyhoedd. Gallai hynny fod yn wir. Fodd bynnag, bydd y broses benderfynu, cyngor anffurfiol y swyddogion a’r rhesymau dros wneud penderfyniadau’n cael eu cyflawni’n agored. Ceir cyfarfodydd grŵp o hyd cyn cyfarfodydd llawn o’r cyngor sy’n penderfynu canlyniad dadleuon. Ni fydd hynny’n newid.

The availability of information is still a key issue. I stated in a short debate on a topic that I proposed that Swansea City and County Council would not provide the information needed to answer allegations made by a former assistant director of technical services. The council now seeks to deny information to a residents group that is campaigning for traffic calming measures on its road, in defiance of the Local Government (Access to Information) Act 1985. In Cardiff City and County Council and other councils, scrutiny committees’ work is being obstructed by controlling groups that are determined to retain the agenda.

Mae argaeledd gwybodaeth yn fater allweddol o hyd. Dywedais mewn dadl fer ar bwnc a gynigiais nad oedd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe yn barod i ddarparu’r wybodaeth angenrheidiol i ateb haeriadau a wnaethpwyd gan gyn-gyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau technegol cynorthwyol. Mae’r cyngor yn awr yn ceisio gwrthod gwybodaeth i grŵp trigolion sy’n ymgyrchu dros fesurau tawelu traffig ar ei ffordd, yn groes i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol (Hawl i Weld Gwybodaeth) 1985. Yng Nghyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd ac mewn cynghorau eraill, mae gwaith pwyllgorau archwilio’n cael ei rwystro gan grwpiau rheoli sydd yn benderfynol o gadw’r agenda.

The regulations that will govern the modernising agenda must be clear in ensuring that these abuses cannot continue. Local government cabinets must meet openly and scrutiny committees must be independent and have access to the necessary information to do their jobs effectively. This must be done in partnership. However, if the new agenda is to work, local government must understand that it cannot operate as it has done in the past. Therefore, the move towards policy agreements is welcome.

Rhaid i’r rheoliadau a fydd yn rheoli’r agenda foderneiddio fod yn glir wrth sicrhau na all y drwg arferion hyn barhau. Rhaid i gabinetau llywodraeth leol gyfarfod yn agored a rhaid i bwyllgorau archwilio fod yn annibynnol a chael gweld yr wybodaeth angenrheidiol er mwyn gwneud eu gwaith yn effeithiol. Rhaid gwneud hyn mewn partneriaeth. Fodd bynnag, os ydyw’r agenda newydd i weithio, rhaid i lywodraeth leol ddeall na chaiff weithredu fel y gwnaeth yn y gorffennol. Felly, mae’r symudiad tuag at gytundebau polisi i’w groesawu.

One problem with the way in which councils have been funded in the past is that central Government has sought to impose its agenda through the local government revenue settlement, by ring-fencing resources for policies or by only providing those resources through a bidding process.

Un broblem ynghylch y modd yr ariannwyd cynghorau yn y gorffennol yw bod Llywodraeth ganolog wedi ceisio gorfodi ei hagenda drwy setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol, drwy glustnodi adnoddau ar gyfer polisïau neu drwy ddarparu’r adnoddau hynny drwy broses ymgeisio’n unig.

The process of forming policy agreements between the National Assembly and individual councils means that we can set targets based on each council’s circumstances. This will achieve improvements in services and prioritising expenditure in accordance with the Assembly’s objectives. The provision of adequate resources is the key to the success of the agreements.

Mae’r broses o ffurfio cytundebau polisi rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a chynghorau unigol yn golygu y gallwn bennu targedau ar sail amgylchiadau pob cyngor. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau gwelliannau mewn gwasanaethau a blaenoriaethu gwariant yn unol ag amcanion y Cynulliad. Darparu adnoddau digonol yw’r allwedd i lwyddiant y cytundebau.

We must not go down the road of further ring-fencing of resources or hypothecation. We must have a partnership of trust based on a mutual understanding of each other’s needs and set out in the policy agreements.

Rhaid inni beidio â dilyn y ffordd o glustnodi pellach ar adnoddau neu bridiannu. Rhaid wrth bartneriaeth o ymddiriedaeth ar sail cyd-ddealltwriaeth o anghenion ein gilydd a hynny wedi ei nodi yn y cytundebau polisi.

We should encourage local councils to embrace inclusiveness and consultation in a much more meaningful way. One reason why local councils have a poor reputation among electors is that they do not explain enough, nor do they draw people into the process of government in their communities.

Dylem annog cynghorau lleol i groesawu cynwysoldeb ac ymgynghori mewn modd mwy ystyrlon o lawer. Un rheswm pam y mae gan gynghorau lleol enw gwael ymysg etholwyr yw nad ydynt yn egluro ddigon, ac nid ydynt ychwaith yn denu pobl i’r broses o lywodraeth yn eu cymunedau.

The new duty to create community plans can provide the vehicle for this, if Welsh councils embrace it in the right way. The traditional methods of consultation through meetings, surveys and written representation are no longer sufficient. Those methods reinforce a ‘them and us’ culture, where the local council retains control of the process. Community plans must be built on empowerment in local communities, so that local residents work with local councillors and officers to create and implement proposals for their neighbourhood. The sum total of the neighbourhood agreements will form the basis for the council-wide plan. They will be added to the more strategic objectives agreed with interested parties in a similar way. That represents best value for the democratic process, where councillors are not afraid to relinquish control, in the same way that we should not be afraid if we are to create a new democracy in Wales.

Gall y ddyletswydd newydd i greu cynlluniau cymunedol ddarparu’r cyfrwng i hynny, os yw cynghorau Cymru’n ei derbyn yn y ffordd iawn. Nid yw’r dulliau traddodiadol o ymgynghori drwy gyfarfodydd, arolygon a sylwadau ysgrifenedig yn ddigon bellach. Mae’r dulliau hynny’n atgyfnerthu diwylliant ‘ni a hwy’, lle y mae’r cyngor lleol yn cadw rheolaeth ar y broses. Rhaid seilio cynlluniau cymunedol ar alluogi mewn cymunedau lleol, fel bod trigolion lleol yn gweithio gyda chynghorwyr lleol a swyddogion i greu a gweithredu cynigion i’r gymdogaeth. Bydd y cytundebau cymdogaeth gyda’i gilydd yn sylfaen ar gyfer y cynllun i’r cyngor cyfan. Fe’u hychwanegir at yr amcanion mwy strategol a gytunir â’r rhai cyfrannog mewn modd tebyg. Hynny sydd yn rhoi’r gwerth gorau i’r broses ddemocrataidd, lle nad yw cynghorwyr yn ofni gollwng rheolaeth, yn yr un modd ag y dylem ni beidio ag ofni os ydym i greu democratiaeth newydd yng Nghymru.

The Liberal Democrat group will support all of the amendments. Like Janet Ryder, we believe that the National Assembly should have the necessary secondary and primary legislative powers to be able to exercise its functions and to govern Wales. Unlike Janet, we would stop short of independence. However, the National Assembly for Wales must have the ability to promote and implement its agenda.

Bydd grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cefnogi’r holl welliannau. Fel Janet Ryder, credwn y dylai fod gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol y pwerau deddfwriaethol eilaidd a sylfaenol angenrheidiol er mwyn gallu arfer ei swyddogaethau a llywodraethu Cymru. Yn wahanol i Janet, byddem yn ymatal cyn annibyniaeth. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru allu hybu a gweithredu ei agenda.

David Davies spoken in English p. 88

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I propose amendment 4. Add at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwaneger at ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 88

David Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

The Conservative group is happy to welcome the principle of a local government partnership scheme. It is, potentially, an important way of safeguarding the rights of local authorities to take decisions at a local level. The Conservative Party believes strongly in that.

Mae’r grŵp Ceidwadol yn falch o groesawu egwyddor cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol. Gallai fod yn fodd pwysig i ddiogelu hawliau awdurdodau lleol i wneud penderfyniadau ar lefel leol. Mae’r Blaid Geidwadol yn credu’n gryf yn hynny.

One of the main reasons why I opposed the Assembly’s creation was a worry that, like any other legislative body, it would try to take on extra powers, not necessarily from Westminster but from local authorities. This is currently a problem. The Secretary for Pre-16 Education may shake her head but, if she recalls the Partnership Council meeting that was held yesterday, it was implied by a Labour leader of a prominent city council in Wales.

Un o’r prif resymau pam y gwrthwynebais greu’r Cynulliad oedd pryder y byddai, fel unrhyw ddeddfwrfa arall, yn ceisio ymgymryd â phwerau ychwanegol, nid o reidrwydd o San Steffan ond o awdurdodau lleol. Mae hyn yn broblem ar hyn o bryd. Caiff yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg Cyn-16 ysgwyd ei phen ond, os yw’n cofio cyfarfod y Cyngor Partneriaeth a gynhaliwyd ddoe, awgrymwyd hynny gan arweinydd Llafur ar gyngor dinas amlwg yng Nghymru.

We believe in sustaining and promoting local government in Wales. It is fundamental to local democracy. However, I must take issue with point (c) of the motion, which welcomes the modernisation agenda. There are many arguments in favour of changing local government. However, the models that Labour proposes are far from perfect. There is no opportunity for the Secretary for Local Government and Housing to allow councils to develop their own variations to suit local need. The many councils that want to continue with the old committee structure are not given the freedom to do so.

Credwn mewn cynnal a hyrwyddo llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Mae’n sylfaenol i ddemocratiaeth leol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi anghytuno â phwynt (c) y cynnig, sy’n croesawu’r agenda foderneiddio. Mae llawer o ddadleuon o blaid newid llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r modelau y mae Llafur yn eu cynnig ymhell o fod yn berffaith. Nid oes cyfle i’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ganiatáu i gynghorau ddatblygu eu hamrywiadau eu hunain i ateb angen lleol. Nid yw’r nifer fawr o gynghorau sy’n dymuno parhau â’r hen strwythur pwyllgorau’n cael rhyddid i wneud hynny.

Paragraph 5.1 of the local government partnership scheme laughably says that the National Assembly will encourage councils to modernise their structures. This is a typical example of New Labour spin doctoring. There is no question of councils being encouraged to adopt the new structure. They have no choice. Many Labour councils are unhappy about this, but they go along with it because they do not have a choice. This was pointed out in the Partnership Council meeting yesterday.

Dywed paragraff 5.1 o’r cynllun partneriaeth llywodraeth leol yn chwerthinllyd y bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn annog cynghorau i foderneiddio eu strwythurau. Mae hyn yn enghraifft nodweddiadol o droelli Llafur Newydd. Nid oes cwestiwn o annog cynghorau i fabwysiadu’r strwythur newydd. Nid oes ganddynt ddewis. Mae llawer o gynghorau Llafur yn anfodlon ynghylch hynny, ond maent yn cyd-fynd ag ef am nad oes ganddynt ddewis. Nodwyd hyn yng nghyfarfod y Cyngor Partneriaeth ddoe.

Perhaps Peter Law will take the challenge thrown to him by a Labour councillor, and make it clear that modernisation is not an option which councils are being encouraged to adopt. It is an obligation that they are forced to undertake.

Efallai y bydd Peter Law yn derbyn yr her a daflwyd ato gan gynghorydd Llafur, ac yn rhoi ar ddeall nad yw moderneiddio’n ddewis y mae cynghorau’n cael eu hannog i’w dderbyn. Mae’n rhwymedigaeth y maent yn gorfod ymgymryd â hi.

My amendment 4 and Peter Black’s amendment 3 relate to the importance of openness. For far too many years, local councils in Wales have made decisions behind closed doors. It is high time that more scrutiny was brought into the process. The new proposals offer an opportunity to increase openness. We must ensure that that opportunity is taken.

Mae gwelliant 4 o’m heiddo a gwelliant 3 Peter Black yn ymwneud â phwysigrwydd bod yn agored. Am ormod o flynyddoedd o lawer, mae cynghorau lleol yng Nghymru wedi gwneud penderfyniadau y tu ôl i ddrysau caeedig. Mae’n hen bryd dod â mwy o archwilio i’r broses. Mae’r cynigion newydd yn cynnig cyfle i gael mwy o weithredu agored. Rhaid inni sicrhau yr achubir ar y cyfle hwnnw.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 90

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

You mention the need for scrutiny. Do you agree that one of the main criteria of modernising local government—which the Labour Party has got wrong in your view—is the need to scrutinise and for scrutiny committees to have more of a say? That is the benefit of modernising local government in Wales and we should welcome it. You have just destroyed your whole argument about our policy.

Yr ydych yn sôn am yr angen am archwilio. A gytunwch mai un o brif feini prawf moderneiddio llywodraeth leol—y mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi ei gael yn anghywir yn eich barn chi—yw’r angen i archwilio ac i bwyllgorau archwilio gael mwy o lais? Dyna’r budd a geir o foderneiddio llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru a dylem ei groesawu. Yr ydych newydd ddinistrio’r holl ddadl sydd gennych ynghylch ein polisi.

David Davies spoken in English p. 90

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

The main thrust of the modernisation agenda is to create a cabinet system. There is a desire for scrutiny to be part of that process. I am merely emphasising that point. I am not satisfied that the models being put forward will ensure that scrutiny is a key part of it. The general model that is likely to be taken up by local councils across Wales is similar to the one that we have in the Assembly. I do not want to see a situation develop in local councils where the so-called scrutiny committees are not there to scrutinise but to implement the policies being set by the ruling group. We do not want to see a situation where the agenda—as Peter Black quite rightly pointed out—for the scrutiny committees is also being decided by the ruling group. That is the real danger and the reason why I put forward my amendment and, presumably, why Peter Black put forward his amendment.

Prif bwyslais yr agenda foderneiddio yw creu system gabinet. Mae awydd i archwilio fod yn rhan o’r broses honno. Nid wyf ond yn pwysleisio’r pwynt hwnnw. Nid wyf yn sicr y bydd y modelau a gynigir yn sicrhau bod archwilio’n rhan allweddol ohoni. Mae’r model cyffredinol sydd yn debygol o gael ei ddilyn gan gynghorau lleol ledled Cymru’n debyg i’r un sydd gennym yn y Cynulliad. Ni ddymunaf weld sefyllfa’n datblygu mewn cynghorau lleol lle nad yw’r pwyllgorau archwilio honedig yn bod er mwyn archwilio ond er mwyn gweithredu’r polisïau a bennir gan y grŵp rheoli. Ni ddymunwn weld sefyllfa lle y mae’r agenda ar gyfer y pwyllgorau archwilio—fel y nododd Peter Black yn gwbl gywir—hefyd yn cael ei phenderfynu gan y grŵp rheoli. Dyna’r perygl gwirioneddol a’r rheswm pam yr wyf yn cyflwyno fy ngwelliant i ac, yn ôl pob tebyg, pam y cyflwynodd Peter Black ei welliant yntau.

Everyone involved in setting up the new structures should remember that scrutiny committees are there to uphold the principle of accountability and not to become the lickspittles of the ruling group. This is the biggest change in local government for over a century and it is vital that we get it right. That is why the Conservative Party has proposed that a review be carried out when the new structures are in place to ensure that openness and transparency are implicit in the new arrangements.

Dylai pawb sy’n gysylltiedig â sefydlu’r strwythurau newydd gofio bod pwyllgorau archwilio yno i gynnal egwyddor atebolrwydd ac nid i ddod yn gynffonwyr y grŵp rheoli. Dyma’r newid mwyaf mewn llywodraeth leol ers canrif a mwy ac mae’n holl bwysig inni ei gael yn iawn. Dyna pam y mae’r Blaid Geidwadol wedi cynnig y dylid cynnal adolygiad pan yw’r strwythurau newydd ar waith er mwyn sicrhau bod gweithredu agored a thryloyw ymhlyg yn y trefniadau newydd.

We would like further clarification on Plaid Cymru’s amendment 1 because we support the principle that the Assembly should make the best use of its powers but, as you would expect, the Conservative Party would reject any moves towards gaining extra powers for the Welsh Assembly. We ask for clarification on that point.

Hoffem eglurhad pellach ar welliant 1 Plaid Cymru oherwydd cefnogwn yr egwyddor y dylai’r Cynulliad wneud y defnydd gorau o’i bwerau ond, fel y disgwyliech, byddai’r Blaid Geidwadol yn gwrthod unrhyw gamau tuag at ennill pwerau ychwanegol i Gynulliad Cymru. Hoffem eglurhad ar y pwynt hwnnw.

As you and the Secretary for Local Government and Housing know, I do not like to be negative about anything. I am happy to say that we endorse the sentiments in Janet Ryder’s amendment 2 on the need to build close links with local councils, national parks and fire and police authorities. That is particularly important with local councils because town and community councils are often the unsung heroes of local communities. They are not in it for financial reward and they get little gratitude for the hard work that they put in. We recognise the importance of that amendment.

Fel y gwyddoch chi a’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, nid wyf yn hoff o fod yn negyddol ynghylch unrhyw beth. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud ein bod yn cymeradwyo’r teimladau yng ngwelliant 2 Janet Ryder ar yr angen i greu cysylltiadau agos â chynghorau lleol, parciau cenedlaethol ac awdurdodau’r heddlu ac awdurdodau tân. Mae hynny’n arbennig o bwysig yn achos cynghorau lleol oherwydd mai cynghorau tref a chymuned yw arwyr anenwog cymunedau lleol yn aml. Nid ydynt ynddi er mwyn yr arian ac ychydig iawn o ddiolch a gânt am eu gwaith caled. Cydnabyddwn bwysigrwydd y gwelliant hwnnw.

We give our support to the partnership scheme on the basis that it will be helpful, but we hope that Members of this Chamber will show their support for greater openness and accountability by voting for amendment 4.

Cefnogwn y cynllun partneriaeth ar y sail y bydd yn ddefnyddiol, ond gobeithiwn y bydd Aelodau’r Siambr hon yn dangos eu cefnogaeth i fwy o weithredu agored ac atebolrwydd drwy bleidleisio dros welliant 4.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 91

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

This is the first time that a statutory body such as this one has been required to draw up a partnership scheme with local government. It has never happened before. It has always been the case that the relationships between local government and the old Welsh Office were more informal and, to an extent, there is at last recognition that local government plays a strong and integral part in the political and public life of Wales.

Dyma’r tro cyntaf iddi fod yn ofynnol i gorff statudol fel hwn lunio cynllun partneriaeth â llywodraeth leol. Ni ddigwyddodd erioed o’r blaen. Mae’n wir erioed fod y cysylltiadau rhwng llywodraeth leol a’r hen Swyddfa Gymreig yn fwy anffurfiol ac, i raddau, mae cydnabyddiaeth o’r diwedd bod llywodraeth leol yn chwarae rhan gryf ac annatod ym mywyd gwleidyddol a chyhoeddus Cymru.

For a long time, there was suspicion among some councillors that the Assembly would go hell for leather to try to take powers away from local government. However, the Government of Wales Act 1998 stipulates that the Assembly can devolve power to local government. We have the power to do that ourselves.

Yr oedd drwgdybiaeth am gyfnod hir ymysg rhai cynghorwyr y byddai’r Cynulliad yn mynd ati fel cath i gythraul i geisio cymryd pwerau oddi wrth lywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn rhagnodi y caiff y Cynulliad ddatganoli pŵer i lywodraeth leol. Mae’r pŵer gennym i wneud hynny ein hunain.

Much has been said about the quality of representation within councils in Wales. Peter Black reminds me that in Bridgend we have a cabinet that meets in public and the Chairs of the scrutiny committees are members of opposition parties. This is despite the fact that it has a Labour majority of about 25 or 26. That is a perfectly proper way of setting up scrutiny within the modernising agenda. Setting up a cabinet does not automatically lead to a situation where everything is done in secret and there is no automatic scrutiny of what the cabinet is doing.

Dywedwyd llawer am ansawdd cynrychiolaeth oddi mewn i gynghorau yng Nghymru. Mae Peter Black yn fy atgoffa bod gennym ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr gabinet sy’n cyfarfod yn gyhoeddus ac mae cadeiryddion y pwyllgorau archwilio yn aelodau o wrthbleidiau. Mae hyn er gwaethaf y ffaith bod ynddo fwyafrif Llafur o tua 25 neu 26. Mae hynny’n ffordd gwbl briodol o sefydlu archwilio oddi mewn i’r agenda moderneiddio. Nid yw sefydlu cabinet yn arwain yn awtomatig at sefyllfa lle y gwneir popeth yn gyfrinachol a lle nad oes archwilio awtomatig o’r hyn y mae’r cabinet yn ei wneud.

I would like to throw into the pot a personal observation that I have made over the years. It is all very well for us to talk about opening out the structures of local government, but it does not mean much if we do not open up local government to people of all ages. Like many people in this Chamber I have been involved in local government. I became a county councillor when I was 28. For a long time, people thought that I was the committee clerk. You get used to that. I was about 10 years younger than anyone else there, and the average age was over 60. That is true of many councils in Wales. How are we to encourage those in their twenties, thirties and forties to become councillors? The major obstacle is that councils meet during the day. As a result, those who work from nine to five—the majority—are, in the main, not able to become councillors. They cannot take time off work and, even if they can, they lose their promotion prospects and it is made difficult for them. Subtle pressure is put on them not to take time off.

Hoffwn gyfrannu sylw personol a wneuthum ar hyd y blynyddoedd. Un peth yw inni sôn am agor strwythurau llywodraeth leol, ond nid yw’n golygu llawer os nad agorwn lywodraeth leol i bobl o bob oed. Fel llawer o bobl yn y Siambr hon bûm yn gysylltiedig â llywodraeth leol. Deuthum yn gynghorydd sir pan oeddwn yn 28. Am gyfnod hir, credai pobl mai clerc y pwyllgor oeddwn. Yr ydych yn dod i arfer â hynny. Yr oeddwn tua 10 mlynedd yn iau nag unrhyw un arall yno, ac yr oedd yr oed cyfartalog dros 60. Mae hynny’n wir am lawer o gynghorau yng Nghymru. Sut yr ydym i annog y rhai yn eu dauddegau, eu tridegau a’u pedwardegau i ddod yn gynghorwyr? Y prif rwystr yw bod cynghorau’n cwrdd yn ystod y dydd. O ganlyniad, nid yw’r rhai sydd yn gweithio o naw tan bump—y mwyafrif—yn gallu dod yn gynghorwyr, gan mwyaf. Ni allant gymryd amser i ffwrdd o’u gwaith, a hyd yn oed os gallant, collant eu gobaith am ddyrchafiad ac fe’i gwneir yn anodd iddynt. Rhoddir pwysau cynnil arnynt i beidio â chymryd amser i ffwrdd.

We must send out a message on working practices. If we want modern councils that represent the whole age range and community, we must consider holding council meetings in the evenings, when the majority of people can attend. I suggested this on several occasions in Bridgend council. It never went down well. People would say ‘yes, but when I was a younger councillor I could get time off from the National Coal Board and the Steel Company of Wales.’ Those companies no longer exist. Times have changed. We must not only concentrate on the structures of local government but on how it operates. Currently, it operates to the exclusion of many people in our society.

Rhaid inni ledaenu neges ar arferion gwaith. Os dymunwn gael cynghorau modern sy’n cynrychioli’r holl amrediad oedran a’r gymuned gyfan, rhaid inni ystyried cynnal cyfarfodydd cyngor gyda’r hwyr, pan yw’r mwyafrif o bobl yn gallu bod yn bresennol. Awgrymais hyn sawl gwaith yng nghyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Ni châi dderbyniad da byth. Dywedai rhai ‘ie, ond pan oeddwn i’n gynghorydd iau gallwn gael amser i ffwrdd gan y Bwrdd Glo Cenedlaethol neu Gwmni Dur Cymru.’ Nid yw’r cwmnïau hynny’n bod bellach. Mae’r oes wedi newid. Rhaid inni beidio â chanolbwyntio ar strwythurau llywodraeth leol yn unig ond ar y modd y mae’n gweithredu. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n gweithredu ar draul llawer o bobl yn ein cymdeithas.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 93

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Do you agree that there is also a problem in involving women in local government? Do you agree that part of the effect of modernisation has been that more women have fallen from leadership positions and that that also happened to an extent after local government reorganisation, when we moved to a one-tier system? Do you agree that we need to address that urgently through the Partnership Council?

A gytunwch fod problem hefyd wrth gynnwys benywod mewn llywodraeth leol? A gytunwch mai rhan o effaith moderneiddio yw bod mwy o fenywod wedi disgyn o swyddi arweinyddiaeth a bod hynny wedi digwydd i raddau ar ôl ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, pan symudasom at system un haen? A gytunwch fod angen inni roi sylw i hynny ar frys drwy’r Cyngor Partneriaeth?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 93

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

I agree that women are under-represented in local government. However, the reasons are many and complex. I do not think that reorganisation in itself was the reason why many women dropped out of local government. Similarly, I do not think that the modernising agenda is the reason why many women have dropped out. There are several reasons, among which is the difficulty that some women have in getting time off to attend council meetings. Women have greater difficulty than men with that on many occasions, because women often have to juggle not only working but the vast bulk of childcare. That is an even greater obstacle to many women, young and old, becoming part of local government and becoming councillors.

Cytunaf fod benywod yn cael eu tangynrychioli mewn llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhesymau’n niferus ac yn gymhleth. Ni chredaf mai ad-drefnu ynddo’i hun oedd y rheswm pam y gadawodd llawer o fenywod lywodraeth leol. Yn yr un modd, ni chredaf mai’r agenda moderneiddio yw’r rheswm pam y mae llawer o fenywod wedi gadael. Mae sawl rheswm, ac ymysg y rhain y mae’r anhawster a gaiff rhai benywod wrth gael amser i ffwrdd i fynychu cyfarfodydd cyngor. Mae benywod yn cael mwy o anhawster na dynion â hynny ar lawer achlysur, oherwydd yn aml mae benywod yn gorfod ymdopi â gwaith a hefyd y rhan helaethaf o’r gofal plant. Mae hynny’n fwy o rwystr byth i lawer o fenywod, hen ac ifanc, rhag dod yn rhan o lywodraeth leol a dod yn gynghorwyr.

At the moment, we ensure that much talent and many people who would be good councillors are effectively excluded from the system. Until we attack that, merely changing the structures will not be sufficient.

Ar hyn o bryd, sicrhawn fod llawer o ddoniau a llawer o bobl a fyddai’n gynghorwyr da yn cael eu cau allan o’r system i bob pwrpas. Hyd nes yr awn i’r afael â hynny, ni fydd newid y strwythurau’n unig yn ddigonol.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 93

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

I declare an interest as the Chair of a community council. I will talk about why we need this Partnership Council and why we need to work together, because I still wonder whether that is sufficiently understood. Looking back over my years in local government, I still find the idea of partnership startling, even mind-blowing. I was first elected to a borough council in 1983. I was its leader for five years during the 1990s. Those were tempestuous years in terms of the relationship between the council and the Welsh Office.

Datganaf fuddiant fel cadeirydd cyngor cymuned. Soniaf am y rheswm y mae arnom angen y Cyngor Partneriaeth hwn a pham y mae angen inni weithio gyda’n gilydd, oherwydd meddyliaf o hyd tybed a oes dealltwriaeth ddigonol o hynny. Wrth fwrw golwg yn ôl ar fy mlynyddoedd mewn llywodraeth leol, yr wyf yn dal i gael y syniad o bartneriaeth yn un ysgytwol, syfrdanol hyd yn oed. Fe’m hetholwyd gyntaf i gyngor bwrdeistref yn 1983. Fi oedd ei arweinydd am bum mlynedd yn ystod y 1990au. Yr oedd y rheini’n flynyddoedd tymhestlog o ran y berthynas rhwng y cyngor a’r Swyddfa Gymreig.

As the leader, I visited the Welsh Office frequently. I also attended as member of the Housing Consultative Council on behalf of the Council of Welsh Districts. I always felt like a member of the Congress Party visiting the viceroy in Delhi or a member of the Peasants’ Party visiting the Kremlin as I walked up the stairs in Cathays Park. That feeling was usually reinforced by the quality coffee and biscuits that were supplied and the beautiful politeness exhibited by a Minister before we got down to business.

Fel yr arweinydd, ymwelwn yn aml â’r Swyddfa Gymreig. Arferwn fynd yno hefyd fel aelod o’r Cyngor Ymgynghorol Tai ar ran Cyngor Dosbarthau Cymru. Byddwn bob amser yn teimlo fel aelod o Blaid y Gyngres yn ymweld â’r rhaglaw yn Delhi neu aelod o Blaid y Werin yn ymweld â’r Cremlin wrth imi esgyn y grisiau ym Mharc Cathays. Atgyfnerthid y teimlad hwnnw fel arfer gan y coffi a’r bisgedi rhagorol a roddid a’r cwrteisi hyfryd a amlygid gan Weinidog cyn inni ddechrau trafod busnes.

Business always seemed to consist of explanations from local government of its problems and possible ways of solving them. The next part of the meeting was usually only too predictable. The response centred on one word: ‘no’. In other words, the consultation was a farce. The answer was dictated from Westminster, and Wales could take a running jump.

Ymddangosai fod y busnes bob amser yn cynnwys esboniadau gan lywodraeth leol o’i phroblemau a dulliau posibl i’w datrys. Yr oedd rhan nesaf y cyfarfod yn un nad oedd ond yn rhy hawdd ei rhagweld. Crynhôi’r ymateb ar un gair: ‘na’. Mewn geiriau eraill, yr oedd yr ymgynghoriad yn ffars. Daeth yr ateb o San Steffan, a naw wfft i Gymru.

With the coming of the Labour Government, it was perhaps not surprising—because it was on the receiving end of this to a great degree—that new brooms went in for new working. I am not sure whether the ‘third way’ is still acceptable currency or whether it has become outdated. However, partnership came in. One effect of those years of lack of consultation, or failure to take notice of anyone in local government by central government was one of the prime reasons for the ‘yes’ vote on 18 September 1997.

Gyda dyfodiad y Llywodraeth Lafur, nid oedd yn syndod efallai—oherwydd hi a gâi ei tharo gan hyn i raddau helaeth—fod ysgub newydd ar gyfer gwaith newydd. Nid wyf yn sicr a yw’r ‘drydedd ffordd’ yn ddywediad a dderbynnir o hyd ynteu a yw’n hen ffasiwn bellach. Fodd bynnag, daeth partneriaeth i mewn. Un o effeithiau’r blynyddoedd hynny o ddiffyg ymgynghori, neu fethiant llywodraeth ganolog i gymryd sylw o unrhyw un mewn llywodraeth leol oedd un o’r prif resymau dros y bleidlais ‘ie’ ar 18 Medi 1997.

Partnership must be one of the gains that Wales gets from the new Assembly. It is a major change in local government, which could become as important as the change to democratic government in the nineteenth century. That change took power away from the land-owning classes and local administrative dictatorship. I hope that this partnership will go a long way to making local government and central government in Wales a great deal fairer than it has been at times. Some of the things that happened in those days mean that I have to struggle to suspend my disbelief in the partnership concept. Please do not react because I am continuing. I have to struggle against a gut feeling that this is all words and cover up. Many members of the public are even more sceptical than me. I am winning my struggle.

Rhaid i bartneriaeth fod yn un o’r enillion a gaiff Cymru o’r Cynulliad newydd. Mae’n newid o bwys mewn llywodraeth leol, a allai ddatblygu i fod cyn bwysiced â’r newid i lywodraeth ddemocrataidd yn y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg. Aeth y newid hwnnw â phŵer oddi wrth y dosbarthiadau tirfeddiannol a’r unbennaeth weinyddol leol. Gobeithiaf y bydd y bartneriaeth hon yn mynd ymhell tuag at wneud llywodraeth leol a llywodraeth ganolog yng Nghymru’n decach o lawer nag y buont ar adegau. Mae rhai o’r pethau a ddigwyddodd yn y dyddiau hynny’n golygu bod rhaid imi frwydro i atal fy anghrediniaeth yn y cysyniad o bartneriaeth. Peidiwch ag ymateb, os gwelwch yn dda, oherwydd yr wyf yn parhau. Rhaid imi frwydro yn erbyn teimlad greddfol mai geiriau ac ymgais i guddio yw hyn i gyd. Mae llawer o aelodau o’r cyhoedd yn fwy amheugar nag yr wyf fi hyd yn oed. Yr wyf yn ennill fy mrwydr.

Plaid Cymru thinks that all of us should go for this partnership structure 100 per cent. If we cannot swing behind this new way of working, how can we expect support from the public? There is a particularly heavy responsibility on the biggest party group in the Assembly, on the Cabinet and on the same party that rules so many councils in Wales to ensure that it works. At the end of the day, that is where the responsibility will lie. Clarity of responsibility and of working between central and local government is essential. Understanding each other’s point of view and tolerance are essential. This is not going to be an easy partnership. There are too many actors involved who would have to give up their agenda.

Mae Plaid Cymru yn credu y dylem i gyd gefnogi’r strwythur partneriaeth hwn 100 y cant. Os na allwn gefnogi’r dull newydd hwn o weithio, sut y gallwn ddisgwyl cael cefnogaeth gan y cyhoedd? Mae cyfrifoldeb arbennig o fawr ar y grŵp plaid mwyaf yn y Cynulliad, ar y Cabinet ac ar yr un blaid sy’n rheoli cynifer o gynghorau yng Nghymru i sicrhau ei fod yn gweithio. Yn y pen draw, yn y fan honno y bydd y cyfrifoldeb. Mae eglurdeb mewn cyfrifoldeb a gweithio rhwng llywodraeth ganolog a lleol yn holl bwysig. Mae dealltwriaeth o safbwyntiau ei gilydd a goddefgarwch yn holl bwysig. Ni fydd hon yn bartneriaeth hawdd. Mae gormod o actorion yn cymryd rhan a fyddai’n gorfod ildio eu hagenda.

In Plaid Cymru, we are not going to trust anyone blindly. We will work with the process but we will judge it critically and constructively. We think that the future of Wales and of the government in Wales will depend on goodwill and hard work in this particular partnership. If this works it will make a change from hours of sitting in a committee room in Cathays Park and sinking into depression at the total irrelevance of the policies foisted on Wales. The biscuits were top of the class but the policies at that time should have been put in a corner with dunces’ hats on their heads.

Ym Mhlaid Cymru, ni fyddwn yn ymddiried yn neb yn ddifeddwl. Byddwn yn gweithio gyda’r broses ond byddwn yn ei barnu’n feirniadol ac yn adeiladol. Credwn y bydd dyfodol Cymru a llywodraeth yng Nghymru yn dibynnu ar ewyllys da a gwaith caled yn y bartneriaeth arbennig hon. Os bydd hyn yn gweithio, bydd yn newid o eistedd mewn ystafell bwyllgor ym Mharc Cathays a suddo i iselder ysbryd ynghylch amherthnasedd llwyr y polisïau a wthiwyd ar Gymru. Yr oedd y bisgedi o’r radd flaenaf ond dylasai’r polisïau bryd hynny fod wedi eu rhoi mewn cornel a chapiau twpsod am eu pennau.

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 95

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 95

Credaf mewn pwysigrwydd partneriaeth a phwysigrwydd y Cynulliad yn siarad yn glir am werth partneriaeth. Dyna sylfaen yr adroddiad hwn a dyna yr anelwn ato. O fewn y bartneriaeth, mae’n holl bwysig ein bod yn ceisio amddiffyn democratiaeth leol.

I believe in the importance of partnership and the importance of the Assembly speaking clearly about the value of partnership. That is the basis of this report and that is what we aim for. Within the partnership, it is crucially important that we try to safeguard local democracy.

Rhaid inni hefyd barchu cynghorwyr lleol a’r gwaith y maent yn ei wneud a’r cyfan y mae hyn yn ei olygu iddynt. Mae llawer ohonynt yn gweithio am oriau lawer mewn diwrnod. Mae’n hanfodol bod eu cartrefi yn agored i’w hetholwyr a bod eu teuluoedd yn eu cefnogi. Nid yw hynny bob amser yn rhwydd. Mae’n ofynnol i’r Cynulliad geisio dangos y parch hwn at gynghorwyr lleol.

We must also respect local councillors and the work that they do and all that this means to them. Many of them work long hours in a day. It is essential that their homes are open to their electors and that their families support them. That is not always easy. It is necessary for the Assembly to try to show this respect to local councillors.

Mae’n bwysig bod llywodraeth leol yn agored ac yn atebol. Rhaid inni ddangos pwysigrwydd aelodau’r meinciau cefn. Mae’n her i lywodraeth leol i sicrhau bod yr aelodau hyn yn cael y sylw a’r hawl i gynrychioli eu hardaloedd a bod hyn yn rhan bwysig o’r bartneriaeth rhyngom ni a llywodraeth leol.

It is important that local government is open and accountable. We must demonstrate the importance of back-bench members. It is a challenge for local government to ensure that these members are given the attention and the right to represent their areas and that this is an important element of the partnership between us and local government.

Rhaid inni hyrwyddo partneriaeth ac ar yr un pryd geisio amddiffyn annibyniaeth llywodraeth leol o fewn y system ddemocrataidd. Edrychaf ymlaen at weithio gydag aelodau eraill y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai er mwyn hyrwyddo’r bartneriaeth hon ac er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol democratiaeth leol. Yr wyf yn sicr bod pob aelod o’r Pwyllgor am geisio gwneud eu gorau i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn siarad yn eglur gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai. Gwn ei fod yntau hefyd eisiau sicrhau bod y bartneriaeth hon yn gweithio. Gobeithiwn am ddyfodol disglair i lywodraeth leol.

We must promote partnership and at the same time try to defend the independence of local government within the democratic system. I look forward to working with the other members of the Local Government and Housing Committee to promote partnership and to ensure the future of local democracy. I am sure that every Committee member will attempt to do their best to ensure that the Assembly speaks clearly to the Secretary for Local Government and Housing. I know that he also wants to ensure that this partnership works. We hope for a bright future for local government.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 96

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

This is my contribution of best value for the end of this session. I thank all Members for their contributions. I am pleased to have the opportunity to wind up this debate. I cannot underline more than what has been said so ably and eloquently by Gwenda Thomas, the Chair of our Local Government and Housing Committee. What she said is the whole point of this partnership. It is about valuing the services that we have in local government. They are valued services. We tend to take things for granted in so many ways. Local government plays an important role in our day to day lives. It spends £3 billion pounds or more of this Assembly’s expenditure; it might be more than that. I look to my colleague, the Finance Secretary. That is the key role that local authorities play. We need to work closely in partnership with them, and get them as close to us as possible. We want them to know that they are valued contributors. We value their services. We should give the back-bench members of those authorities the opportunity to make a deserved contribution, a contribution that they have made for many years. Local government modernisation, which has been mentioned by so many, but is not the subject of this partnership agreement, will give us that opportunity. We will be able to debate that further in the future. Partnership is important. I thank Gwenda for her positive contribution.

Dyma fy nghyfraniad i o werth gorau ar gyfer diwedd y sesiwn hon. Diolchaf i’r holl Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i ddod â’r ddadl hon i ben. Ni allaf danlinellu mwy na’r hyn a ddywedwyd mor alluog a huawdl gan Gwenda Thomas, Cadeirydd ein Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai. Yr hyn a ddywedodd yw holl bwynt y bartneriaeth hon. Mae’n ymwneud â thrysori’r gwasanaethau sydd gennym mewn llywodraeth leol. Maent yn wasanaethau a drysorir. Mae tuedd inni gymryd pethau’n ganiataol mewn cynifer o ffyrdd. Mae llywodraeth leol yn chwarae rôl bwysig yn ein bywydau o ddydd i ddydd. Gwaria £3 biliwn neu fwy o wariant y Cynulliad hwn; gallai fod yn fwy na hynny. Dibynnaf ar fy nghyd-Aelod, yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid. Dyna’r rôl allweddol y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ei chwarae. Mae angen inni weithio’n agos mewn partneriaeth â hwy, a dod â hwy mor agos â phosibl atom. Dymunwn iddynt wybod eu bod yn gyfranwyr gwerthfawr. Gwerthfawrogwn eu gwasanaethau. Dylem roi cyfle i aelodau mainc gefn yr awdurdodau hynny wneud cyfraniad haeddiannol, cyfraniad a wnaethant am flynyddoedd lawer. Bydd moderneiddio llywodraeth leol, a grybwyllwyd gan nifer fawr, ond nad yw’n destun i’r cytundeb partneriaeth hwn, yn rhoi’r cyfle hwnnw inni. Byddwn yn gallu trafod hynny ymhellach yn y dyfodol. Mae partneriaeth yn bwysig. Diolchaf i Gwenda am ei chyfraniad cadarnhaol.

I oppose Janet Ryder’s amendment 1 although I support her amendment 2. She made the point about town and community councils. Town and community councils are recognised for their valuable contribution throughout Wales. I mentioned earlier that there are 750 of them. They have two places on the Partnership Council. I authorised those two places. They were not recognised previously by any government. That is the difference in this National Assembly. If you ask the National Association of Local Councils and the Welsh Association of Town and Community Councils, they will tell you that they never had it so good. We recognise the valuable role that they play throughout their communities up and down Wales. I extend that comment to you also, Janet, as last year’s mayor of Ruthin. They make a valued contribution and I appreciate that greatly. They have been incorporated in this partnership agreement. They are all mentioned, following the consultation, in the partnership agreement document. That is correct. The police authorities, the national park authorities and fire authorities are also mentioned. They all work together for our community

Gwrthwynebaf welliant 1 Janet Ryder er fy mod yn cefnogi gwelliant 2 o’i heiddo. Fe wnaeth hi’r pwynt am gynghorau tref a chymuned. Cydnabyddir cynghorau tref a chymuned am eu cyfraniad gwerthfawr ledled Cymru. Dywedais yn gynharach fod 750 ohonynt. Mae ganddynt ddau le ar y Cyngor Partneriaeth. Fi a awdurdododd y ddau le hynny. Ni chydnabuwyd hwy o’r blaen gan unrhyw lywodraeth. Dyna’r gwahaniaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn. Os holwch Gymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynghorau Lleol a Chymdeithas Cynghorau Bro a Thref Cymru, dywedant wrthych na fu hi erioed cystal arnynt. Cydnabyddwn y rôl werthfawr y maent yn ei chwarae ledled eu cymunedau drwy Gymru benbaladr. Estynnaf y sylw hwnnw i chithau, Janet, fel maer Rhuthun y llynedd. Rhoddant gyfraniad gwerthfawr a mawr werthfawrogaf hynny. Fe’u hymgorfforwyd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth hwn. Maent i gyd wedi eu crybwyll, ar ôl ymgynghori, yn nogfen y cytundeb partneriaeth. Mae hynny’n gywir. Crybwyllir awdurdodau’r heddlu, awdurdodau’r parciau cenedlaethol a’r awdurdodau tân hefyd. Maent i gyd yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd dros ein cymuned.

It was not appropriate—although I am joining in now—to see this debate used for political purposes this afternoon. In amendment 1, Janet, you hijacked those facts to make a political point. That is not appropriate today. We discussed that last week. I have bared my soul on it everywhere. We are taking forward, with the Secretary of State for Wales, the opportunity to add certain plans to that Act in the future. The avenue is there through a Parliamentary Order. I have said that I will not miss that opportunity to go forward as and when appropriate. Primary law-making powers are not relevant to this debate today. The issue of equality with Scotland is not relevant either. That blows it out of perspective and makes it pure politics. I regret that because we have not lost any powers, as I said at the beginning of this debate. We failed to gain more power, but we have not lost any of the powers that were granted to us. We will pursue those matters through a Parliamentary Order and the opportunity that we have in front of us in the Local Government Bill.

Nid oedd yn briodol—er fy mod i’n ymuno’n awr—gweld defnyddio’r ddadl hon i ddibenion gwleidyddol y prynhawn yma. Yng ngwelliant 1, Janet, herwgipiasoch y ffeithiau hynny er mwyn gwneud pwynt gwleidyddol. Nid yw hynny’n briodol heddiw. Trafodasom hynny yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr wyf wedi dangos fy nheimladau yn ei gylch ym mhobman. Yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen, gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, â’r cyfle i ychwanegu rhai cynlluniau at y Ddeddf honno yn y dyfodol. Mae’r ffordd ar gael drwy Orchymyn Seneddol. Dywedais na fethaf y cyfle hwnnw i fynd ymlaen pan fo’n briodol. Nid yw pwerau deddfu sylfaenol yn berthnasol i’r ddadl hon heddiw. Nid yw mater cydraddoldeb â’r Alban yn berthnasol ychwaith. Mae hynny’n mynd â phethau dros ben llestri ac yn troi hyn yn wleidyddiaeth bur. Mae hynny’n ofid i mi oherwydd ni chollasom unrhyw bwerau, fel y dywedais ar ddechrau’r ddadl hon. Methasom ennill mwy o bŵer, ond ni chollasom unrhyw un o’r pwerau a roddwyd i ni. Byddwn yn dilyn y materion hynny drwy Orchymyn Seneddol a’r cyfle sydd gennym o’n blaen yn y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol.

I support Peter Black’s amendment 3. However, that again refers to local government modernisation. Everybody wants that and we will have many opportunities to discuss it again in the future.

Cefnogaf welliant 3 Peter Black. Fodd bynnag, mae hwnnw eto’n cyfeirio at foderneiddio llywodraeth leol. Mae pawb yn dymuno hynny a chawn lawer o gyfleoedd i’w drafod eto yn y dyfodol.

It is not in the spirit of this legislation, but I will veer into this issue as well, because it is important. I was pleased to hear that the Liberal Democrats do not support Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales in its quest for independence. I was pleased that you made that point, Peter, because there are many others here who do not support Plaid Cymru on that issue. It was interesting that you made that point carefully and nobody denied it on Plaid Cymru’s benches.

Nid yw’n gydnaws â’r ddeddfwriaeth hon, ond af ar ôl y mater hwn hefyd, oherwydd mae’n bwysig. Yr oedd yn dda gennyf glywed nad yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cefnogi Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn ei hymchwil am annibyniaeth. Yr oeddwn yn falch eich bod wedi gwneud y pwynt hwnnw, Peter, oherwydd mae llawer o rai eraill yma nad ydynt yn cefnogi Plaid Cymru ar y mater hwnnw. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol ichi wneud y pwynt hwnnw’n ofalus ac na fu i neb ei wadu ar feinciau Plaid Cymru.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 98

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

To put you right, Peter, several of us here are saying on the record that now North Korea and South Korea are talking to each other again, there is only one independent country left in the world and that is Cuba. It spends its time trying to negotiate to get back into the world community. Therefore, whatever you all think about our policies, I suggest that you read our manifestos, which go back a few years.

Er mwyn eich cywiro, Peter, mae nifer ohonom yma yn dweud ar goedd nad oes ond un wlad annibynnol ar ôl yn y byd, gan fod Gogledd Corea a De Corea yn siarad â’i gilydd eto yn awr, a Cuba yw honno. Mae’n treulio’i hamser yn ceisio negodi er mwyn ailymuno â chymuned y byd. Felly, beth bynnag a feddyliwch am ein polisïau, awgrymaf y dylech ddarllen ein maniffestos, sydd yn mynd yn ôl rai blynyddoedd.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 98

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

Is that a definitive statement of Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales or your statement as a leadership candidate?

Ai datganiad swyddogol gan Blaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yw hwnnw ynteu’ch datganiad chi fel ymgeisydd am yr arweinyddiaeth?

Helen Mary Jones a gododd—

Helen Mary Jones rose—

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 98

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

Order. The Presiding Officer has already said that we will not have anything to do with individual party politics in this Chamber. Can we return to the matter in hand?

Trefn. Mae’r Llywydd wedi dweud eisoes na fyddwn yn ymhél o gwbl â gwleidyddiaeth pleidiau unigol yn y Siambr hon. A gawn ddychwelyd at y mater sydd dan sylw?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 99

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

It was Peter Black’s fault. I want to make that clear.

Bai Peter Black ydoedd. Dymunaf roi ar ddeall am hynny.

I was interested that Peter Black made that point. He mentioned openness and, of course, we will discuss the full regulations of cabinets in the future. Schemes must be devised and submitted here for us to consider. That power remains with us. I also want to see openness and accountability, bearing in mind that local government has a role to play in operating in its communities. However, there are some issues on which you cannot have open cabinet meetings. That must be respected. We will have an opportunity to deal with that.

Yr oedd o ddiddordeb imi fod Peter Black wedi gwneud y pwynt hwnnw. Soniodd am fod yn agored ac, wrth gwrs, byddwn yn trafod rheoliadau llawn cabinetau yn y dyfodol. Rhaid dyfeisio cynlluniau a’u cyflwyno yma i ni eu hystyried. Mae’r pŵer hwnnw gennym o hyd. Yr wyf finnau’n dymuno gweld gweithredu agored ac atebolrwydd, o gofio bod gan lywodraeth leol rôl i’w chwarae wrth weithredu yn ei chymunedau. Fodd bynnag, mae rhai materion na allwch gael cyfarfodydd cabinet agored arnynt. Rhaid parchu hynny. Byddwn yn cael cyfle i ddelio â hynny.

It was interesting to hear David Davies’s point on his amendment 4, which, incidentally, Labour will vote against—we do not want to spoil a tradition on the Labour benches. David Davies’s point was typical of the backward looking, centralised Tories. He suggested that there could be opportunities for us to take local government powers. As we heard that, people’s spines tingled throughout 22 unitary authorities in Wales because they remember the days of the Tories. We all remember those days.

Yr oedd o ddiddordeb imi glywed pwynt David Davies ar welliant 4 o’i eiddo, y bydd Llafur yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn, gyda llaw—ni ddymunwn ddifetha traddodiad ar y meinciau Llafur. Yr oedd pwynt David Davies yn nodweddiadol o’r Torïaid ôl-dremiol, canoledig. Awgrymodd y gallem gael cyfleoedd i gymryd pwerau llywodraeth leol. Wrth inni glywed hynny, yr oedd ias yn rhedeg ar hyd esgyrn cefn pobl ym mhob un o’r 22 awdurdod unedol yng Nghymru oherwydd cofiant ddyddiau’r Torïaid. Yr ydym i gyd yn cofio’r dyddiau hynny.

David Davies spoken in English p. 99

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

We remember the days of the militants with which your party had to deal.

Yr ydym ninnau’n cofio dyddiau’r milwriaethwyr y bu’n rhaid i’ch plaid chi ddelio â hwy.

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I remind Members that there are two minutes remaining, before we move to the vote.

Atgoffaf yr Aelodau fod dau funud ar ôl, cyn inni symud at y bleidlais.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 99

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

When you deal with a man like David Davies, you need to do justice to the occasion, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is the man who talked about openness being appropriate. The Tories, who took all the power to the centre, have short memories. They imposed health trusts on Wales and stuffed them full of Tories who met in private. The Labour Government opened up the health service to the public. Local government was exasperated by the brute force of the Tory governor general, who was parachuted in, and yet David Davies talks about openness. That is hypocrisy.

Pan ydych yn delio â dyn fel David Davies, mae angen ichi wneud cyfiawnder â’r achlysur, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Hwn yw’r dyn a soniodd am briodoldeb gweithredu agored. Cof byr sydd gan y Torïaid, a aeth â’r holl bŵer i’r canol. Gorfodasant ymddiriedolaethau iechyd ar Gymru a’u llenwi i’r ymylon â Thorïaid a gyfarfyddai’n breifat. Agorodd y Llywodraeth Lafur y gwasanaeth iechyd i’r cyhoedd. Yr oedd llywodraeth leol wedi ei chythruddo gan nerth bôn braich y llywodraethwr cyffredinol Torïaidd, a ollyngwyd yma â pharasiwt, ac eto mae David Davies yn sôn am fod yn agored. Rhagrith yw hynny.

The Labour Government is modernising local government. It is working towards more openness, scrutiny and accountability. Janet Davies carefully mentioned the partnership. It was challenging. It was different. However, she said that she was not impressed with what she had seen up until now. That is democracy, Janet. However, I am sure that we are working together. At the end of the day, we have the same common interest at heart. If you come to Cathays Park while I am there, Janet, I will give you a warm welcome and chocolate biscuits, because you are Chair of the Audit Committee.

Mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn moderneiddio llywodraeth leol. Mae’n ymdrechu i gael mwy o weithredu agored, archwilio ac atebolrwydd. Soniodd Janet Davies yn ystyriol am y bartneriaeth. Yr oedd yn llawn her. Yr oedd yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd nad oedd yr hyn a welodd hyd yn hyn wedi gwneud argraff arni. Peth felly yw democratiaeth, Janet. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sicr ein bod yn gweithio gyda’n gilydd. Yn y pen draw, yr un diddordeb cyffredin sydd gennym yn ein calonnau. Os deuwch i Barc Cathays tra yr wyf fi yno, Janet, byddaf yn rhoi croeso cynnes a bisgedi siocled i chi, oherwydd chi yw Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio.

However, we cannot afford to miss this opportunity. This partnership arrangement which has been fully consulted upon, gives us the opportunity to move forward positively, working with our partners in local government. It has to be right. It is a new era. It is a watershed and it is what the National Assembly is all about. It is about doing things differently in Wales. We are proud to have that opportunity, as is Welsh local government, because it does not exist anywhere else in the UK.

Fodd bynnag, ni allwn fforddio methu’r cyfle hwn. Mae’r trefniant partneriaeth hwn, y bu ymgynghori llawn arno, yn rhoi’r cyfle inni symud ymlaen yn gadarnhaol, gan weithio gyda’n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol. Rhaid iddo fod yn gywir. Mae’n oes newydd. Mae’n drobwynt a dyma holl ddiben y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae’n ymwneud â gwneud pethau’n wahanol yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn falch o gael y cyfle hwnnw, fel y mae llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, oherwydd nid yw’n bod yn unman arall yn y DU.

Gwelliant 1 Janet Ryder t. 100

Amendment 1 Janet Ryder p. 100

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 2 Janet Ryder t. 101

Amendment 2 Janet Ryder p. 101

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 3 Peter Black t. 102

Amendment 3 Peter Black p. 102

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 4 David Davies t. 103

Amendment 4 David Davies p. 103

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 11 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 38

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (11)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Christine Humphreys
  • David Melding
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (38)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig Peter Law t. 104

Motion Peter Law p. 104

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Jane Davidson The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105

Jane Davidson Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

That concludes today’s business. I thank Members and declare today’s business ended.

Mae hynny’n cwblhau busnes heddiw. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau a datganaf fod busnes heddiw ar ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.33 p.m.

The session ended at 5.33 p.m.