Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 10 Hydref 2000

Tuesday 10 October 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 16:55

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Penodiad i’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth LeolAppointment to the Local Government Partnership Council 1 bleidlais1 vote
  2. 4Etholiadau i Bwyllgorau’r CynulliadElections to Assembly Committees 10 o bleidleisiau10 votes
  3. 14Datganiad Personol gan Tom MiddlehurstPersonal Statement by Tom Middlehurst
  4. 17Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
    1. 17Dyfodol Canolfan Mileniwm CymruFuture of Wales Millennium Centre
    2. 19Targedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’‘Betterwales.com’ Targets
    3. 22Adolygiad o’r Cynulliad (Concordatiau)Assembly Review (Concordats)
    4. 23Rôl y Cynulliad mewn Argyfwng CenedlaetholThe Role of the Assembly in a National Emergency
    5. 25Hyrwyddo Delwedd CymruPromoting the Image of Wales
    6. 28Cyflenwadau o Danwydd ar gyfer Gwasanaethau HanfodolFuel Supplies for Essential Services
    7. 30Cyflwyno’r Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol 1998Introduction of Human Rights Act 1998
    8. 31Partneriaeth â BusnesPartnership with Business
  5. 33Datganiad ar y Cytundeb PartneriaethStatement on the Partnership Agreement
  6. 46Datganiad ar y Memorandwm Cyd-ddealltwriaeth ar Gyflenwadau TanwyddStatement on the Memorandum of Understanding on Fuel Supplies
  7. 61Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  8. 66Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 72Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  10. 73Newidiadau i’r Rheolau SefydlogChanges to Standing Orders 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
  11. 92Creu Cyllideb ar gyfer Swyddfa’r LlywyddEstablishment of a Budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 96Addasiadau i Gyllidebau Prif Grwpiau GwariantBudgetary Adjustments in Main Expenditure Groups 1 bleidlais1 vote

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Penodiad i’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth LeolAppointment to the Local Government Partnership Council
CynnigMotion4300DerbyniwydAdopted
Etholiadau i Bwyllgorau’r CynulliadElections to Assembly Committees
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4800DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4900DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4900DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4900DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion5000DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion5100DerbyniwydAdopted
Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
CynnigMotion31022DerbyniwydAdopted
Newidiadau i’r Rheolau SefydlogChanges to Standing Orders
CynnigMotion38013DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4317DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion5000DerbyniwydAdopted
Creu Cyllideb ar gyfer Swyddfa’r LlywyddEstablishment of a Budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer
CynnigMotion2700DerbyniwydAdopted
Addasiadau i Gyllidebau Prif Grwpiau GwariantBudgetary Adjustments in Main Expenditure Groups
CynnigMotion4000DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Penodiad i’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol

Appointment to the Local Government Partnership Council

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 3

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 3

Motion Andrew Davies p. 3

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Etholiadau i Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad

Elections to Assembly Committees

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 4

Motion Andrew Davies p. 4

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 5

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 5

Motion Andrew Davies p. 5

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 6

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 6

Motion Andrew Davies p. 6

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 7

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 7

Motion Andrew Davies p. 7

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 8

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 8

Motion Andrew Davies p. 8

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 9

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 9

Motion Andrew Davies p. 9

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 10

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 10

Motion Andrew Davies p. 10

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 11

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 11

Motion Andrew Davies p. 11

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 12

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 12

Motion Andrew Davies p. 12

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 13

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 13

Motion Andrew Davies p. 13

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Datganiad Personol gan Tom Middlehurst

Personal Statement by Tom Middlehurst

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 14

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Llywydd, I thank you for the opportunity to address the Assembly this afternoon. Members will be aware that I wrote to the First Secretary yesterday resigning from my post in the Assembly’s Cabinet. It is important that I record my decision in the official record of Assembly proceedings. I go without any bitterness or rancour. On the contrary, it has been a great privilege to have served in the Cabinet for its first 17 months. It has been extremely demanding, rewarding and, on many occasions, even enjoyable.

Lywydd, diolchaf ichi am y cyfle i annerch y Cynulliad y prynhawn yma. Bydd yr Aelodau yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi ysgrifennu at y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddoe yn ymddiswyddo o’m swydd yng Nghabinet y Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig fy mod yn cofnodi fy mhenderfyniad yn y cofnod swyddogol o drafodion y Cynulliad. Af heb unrhyw chwerwder na chasineb. I’r gwrthwyneb, bu’n fraint fawr i wasanaethu yn y Cabinet yn ystod ei 17 mis cyntaf. Bu’n waith hynod o drwm, boddhaus ac, ar adegau, yn waith a roddodd fwynhad imi hyd yn oed.

This has been the first exercise in devolved self-government in modern Wales and I have been honoured to play my part. I have been a willing ambassador for the Assembly within and outside Wales. I have always promoted positive images and the opportunities and the potential benefits that this Assembly can deliver for our people.

Hwn oedd yr ymarfer cyntaf mewn hunanlywodraeth ddatganoledig yn y Gymru fodern a bu’n anrhydedd imi gael chwarae fy rhan. Bûm yn llysgennad parod dros y Cynulliad o fewn Cymru a’r tu allan iddi. Yr wyf bob amser wedi hyrwyddo delweddau cadarnhaol a’r cyfleoedd a’r manteision posibl y gall y Cynulliad hwn eu cyflwyno i’n pobl.

In my time in office and within my responsibilities, we have made substantial progress in a relatively short time. To provide one example—and I will bore you even though you have heard too much of this—I am convinced that the Assembly’s education and training action plan will play a huge part in the necessary task of modernising the Welsh economy. That is a policy made in Wales as a testament of the value of devolution.

Yn ystod fy nghyfnod yn fy swydd ac o fewn fy nghyfrifoldebau, yr ydym wedi gwneud cynnydd sylweddol mewn cyfnod cymharol fyr. I roi un enghraifft—ac fe’ch diflasaf er eich bod wedi clywed gormod o hyn—yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig y bydd cynllun gweithredu addysg a hyfforddiant y Cynulliad yn chwarae rhan enfawr yn y dasg angenrheidiol o foderneiddio economi Cymru. Polisi a wnaethpwyd yng Nghymru yw hwnnw sydd yn dyst i werth datganoli.

I thank the many Assembly officials who have supported me in office. It is often only on these occasions that they get a mention and the thanks that they deserve. I also thank members of the Assembly’s Post-16 Education and Training Committee. We have worked well together across all political parties and shown in practice how inclusive politics can generate the ideas to take Wales forward. There is much work in progress in the Committee, which will bring positive benefits to our people. I pay tribute to Cynog Dafis, who has chaired the Committee effectively. Our partnership has been fruitful.

Diolchaf i’r llu o swyddogion y Cynulliad sydd wedi fy nghefnogi yn fy swydd. Yn aml, dim ond ar adegau fel hyn y cânt eu crybwyll ac y cânt ddiolch dyledus. Diolchaf hefyd i aelodau Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 y Cynulliad. Yr ydym wedi cydweithio’n dda ar draws yr holl bleidiau gwleidyddol ac wedi dangos yn ymarferol sut y gall gwleidyddiaeth gynhwysol ysgogi syniadau i arwain Cymru yn ei blaen. Mae llawer o waith ar y gweill yn y Pwyllgor, a fydd yn dod â buddiannau cadarnhaol i’n pobl. Talaf deyrnged i Cynog Dafis, sydd wedi cadeirio’r Pwyllgor yn effeithiol. Bu ein partneriaeth yn ffrwythlon.

Having said that, there is a need for greater stability in the process of government created by the Assembly. There has been too great an indulgence in gesture politics, where Assembly Members have sought a headline through petty obstruction and demeaning personalisation of politics. I regret the censure motions against my former Cabinet colleague, Christine Gwyther. I continue to regret the vote of no confidence in Alun Michael. Alun said then that the European Objective 1 funding issue would be sorted out in the comprehensive spending review. I hope that the Assembly now recognises that he was right.

Wedi dweud hynny, mae angen mwy o sefydlogrwydd yn y broses o lywodraethu a grëwyd gan y Cynulliad. Bu llawer gormod o ymblesera mewn gwleidyddiaeth sydd ond yn arwyddion, lle mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi ceisio cael pennawd drwy rwystrau pitw a thrwy bersonoli gwleidyddiaeth mewn ffordd ddiraddiol. Mae’n edifar gennyf am y cynigion o gerydd yn erbyn fy nghyn gyd-aelod Cabinet, Christine Gwyther. Parhaf i fod yn edifar am y cynnig o ddiffyg hyder yn Alun Michael. Dywedodd Alun bryd hynny y câi’r mater o arian Amcan 1 Ewropeaidd ei ddatrys yn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Gobeithiaf fod y Cynulliad bellach yn cydnabod mai ef oedd yn iawn.

We have all been learning the process of self-government over the past 17 months. Inevitably, there is more learning to be done by us all in the Assembly. The need for learning also extends to the media in Wales. There needs to be far more regard to policies and evidence, and far less regard to personalities. The people of Wales need a more mature media. We need newspapers that report fairly and objectively while retaining their political—I mean editorial—integrity. I was probably right the first time. We all have a duty to make the Assembly work and that extends to the media, which is able to exercise considerable influence.

Yr ydym oll wedi bod yn dysgu’r broses o hunanlywodraeth dros yr 17 mis diwethaf. Yn anochel, mae mwy i’w ddysgu gan bob un ohonom yn y Cynulliad. Ymestynna’r angen i ddysgu hefyd i’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru. Mae angen rhoi llawer mwy o ystyriaeth i bolisïau a thystiolaeth, a llawer llai o ystyriaeth i bersonoliaethau. Mae angen cyfryngau mwy aeddfed ar bobl Cymru. Mae angen papurau newydd arnom sydd yn rhoi adroddiadau teg a gwrthrychol tra’n cadw eu hintegredd gwleidyddol—golygyddol hynny yw. Yr oeddwn fwy na thebyg yn gywir y tro cyntaf. Mae gan bob un ohonom ddyletswydd i wneud i’r Cynulliad weithio ac mae hynny’n ymestyn i’r cyfryngau, a all arfer cryn ddylanwad.

In creating the stability that the Assembly needs, I have been eager to work with all parties and I have participated with Edwina Hart, for example, in long and detailed work in preparing the ground for all-party agreement on a three-year budget and the policy programme. I pay tribute to Edwina’s work and the way in which she approaches this necessary task. I also pay tribute to my Cabinet colleagues. We have worked well together in addressing our responsibilities and in meeting the needs of the people of Wales. We have been well served in the Assembly by people of dedication and integrity.

Wrth greu’r sefydlogrwydd sydd ei angen ar y Cynulliad, bûm yn awyddus i weithio gyda phob plaid a chymerais ran gydag Edwina Hart, er enghraifft, mewn gwaith hir a manwl wrth fraenaru’r tir ar gyfer cytundeb pob plaid ar gyllideb tair blynedd a’r rhaglen bolisi. Talaf derynged i waith Edwina a’r ffordd y mae’n mynd ati i gyflawni’r dasg angenrheidiol hon. Talaf derynged hefyd i’m cyd-aelodau Cabinet. Cydweithiasom yn dda o ran mynd i’r afael â’n cyfrifoldebau a chwrdd ag anghenion pobl Cymru. Mae pobl ymrwymedig a gonest wedi ein gwasanaethu’n dda yn y Cynulliad.

The reason for my resignation is simple. I do not accept the need for the Labour administration to invite the Assembly’s fourth party into a coalition, with two Liberal Democrats taking seats in the Cabinet. I do not accept that the leader of the Assembly’s fourth party should become its Deputy First Secretary.

Mae’r rheswm dros fy ymddiswyddiad yn syml. Nid wyf yn derbyn yr angen i’r weinyddiaeth Lafur wahodd pedwaredd plaid y Cynulliad i ffurfio clymblaid, gyda dau o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cymryd seddau yn y Cabinet. Nid wyf yn derbyn y dylai arweinydd pedwaredd plaid y Cynulliad ddod yn Ddirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd iddo.

I finish by putting on record my highest regard for Rhodri Morgan as a statesman of considerable stature. Undoubtedly, he is the only politician in the Assembly who can lead this administration. He commands the support of my party and I believe that he is overwhelmingly supported by the people of Wales. He also has my full and absolute support, which I will now provide from the back benches rather than from within the Cabinet. I am proud to serve the people of Alyn and Deeside and it is important that north Wales learns to recognise that this Assembly is its Assembly. As one door closes for me, another opens and I am optimistic about my future. I will now put all my energy into ensuring that my constituency and north Wales is served effectively by the National Assembly for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I gloi hoffwn gofnodi fod gennyf y parch mwyaf tuag at Rhodri Morgan fel gwladweinydd o statws sylweddol. Yn ddi-os, ef yw’r unig wleidydd yn y Cynulliad a all arwain y weinyddiaeth hon. Mae ganddo gefnogaeth fy mhlaid a chredaf fod cefnogaeth aruthrol iddo gan bobl Cymru. Caiff hefyd gefnogaeth lwyr ac absoliwt gennyf fi, a byddaf yn darparu hynny bellach o’r meinciau cefn yn hytrach nag o fewn y Cabinet. Mae’n bleser gennyf wasanaethu pobl Alun a Glannau Dyfrdwy ac mae’n bwysig bod gogledd Cymru yn dysgu i gydnabod mai ei Chynulliad hi yw’r Cynulliad hwn. Wrth i un drws gau imi, mae un arall yn agor ac yr wyf yn optimistaidd ynglŷn â’m dyfodol. Byddaf bellach yn ymroi fy holl egni i sicrhau bod fy etholaeth a gogledd Cymru yn cael eu gwasanaethu’n effeithiol gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Diolch yn fawr.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd

Questions to the First Secretary

Dyfodol Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru

Future of Wales Millennium Centre

C1 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Q1 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 17

Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd i sicrhau dyfodol Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru er mwyn hybu Cymru, ei diwylliant a’i hiaith? (OAQ7037)

What plans does the First Secretary have to safeguard the future of the Wales Millennium Centre for the promotion of Wales, its culture and language? (OAQ7037)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 17

Yr wyf fi—a Tom Middlehurst hyd at ddoe—yn gwneud popeth o fewn fy ngallu i ddod i gytundeb a fydd yn galluogi i Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru gael ei hadeiladu.

I—and Tom Middlehurst until yesterday—am doing everything within my ability to come to an agreement that will enable the Wales Millennium Centre to be built.

Mae’r trafodaethau gyda Chwmni Mileniwm Cymru yn parhau. Anelwn at sefydlu prosiect y gellir ei fforddio gyda’r adnoddau a fydd ar gael. Er mwyn cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw, mae’n hanfodol fy mod yn cael sicrwydd o gyfanswm bras o gost y prosiect. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y ganolfan yn cael ei hadeiladu ar amser ac o fewn y gyllideb, ac y bydd yn gweithredu’n llwyddiannus ar ôl ei hagor. Os na chaiff y materion hynny eu datrys, byddai parhau â’r prosiect yn anghyfrifol. Cefnogaf y prosiect, a fyddai’n gyfraniad unigryw a gwerthfawr i fywyd celfyddydol a diwylliannol Cymru.

Discussions with the Wales Millennium Company are ongoing. We aim to establish a project that can be afforded with the resources that will be available. To reach that point, it is essential that I get a guarantee of the approximate total cost of the project. I am confident that the centre will be built on time and within budget, and that it will operate successfully after opening. If those issues are not resolved, continuing with the project would be irresponsible. I support the project, which would be a unique and valuable contribution to the artistic and cultural life of Wales.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 18

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

The three independent assessors for the Millennium Commission, the Wales Millennium Centre and the National Assembly have costed the revised project plan at between £81.5 million and £85 million. Do you agree that the National Assembly’s share of the increased cost—a sum of £2 million to £3 million—is an excellent investment as it will attract £70 million to this flagship project while not posing revenue costs to this or any other public body?

Mae’r tri aseswr annibynnol o Gomisiwn y Mileniwm, Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru a Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wedi cyfrifo y bydd cost y cynllun prosiect diwygiedig rhwng £81.5 miliwn ac £85 miliwn. A ydych yn cytuno bod cyfran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o’r gost uwch—swm o rhwng £2 filiwn a £3 miliwn—yn fuddsoddiad rhagorol gan y bydd yn denu £70 miliwn i’r prosiect amlwg hwn gan osgoi costau refeniw i’r corff hwn ac unrhyw gorff cyhoeddus arall?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I wish that were true. The issue is the degree of cost certainty and how much we can rely on the cost figures that you talked about. It is my understanding that to achieve even 80 per cent cost certainty on the project, a considerable expenditure that would run into several million pounds on fees and about six months’ work on the design of the building is required. The technical term for a stage of reasonable cost certainty is the Royal Institute of British Architects’ stage D. That is not the stage immediately before you start construction, but it is close. To reach stage D requires approximately another £2 million in fees alone and some five or six months’ work by architects and quantity surveyors. Therefore, I do not think that the situation is quite as certain as you describe, much as I wish it were.

Pe buasai hynny ond yn wir. Y mater dan sylw yw maint y sicrwydd cost ac i ba raddau y gallwn ddibynnu ar y ffigurau cost y soniasoch amdanynt. Yr wyf ar ddeall y byddai angen gwariant sylweddol a fyddai’n dod i filiynau o bunnoedd ar ffïoedd a thua chwe mis o waith ar gynllunio’r adeilad er mwyn cyflawni hyd yn oed 80 y cant o’r sicrwydd cost ar y prosiect. Y term technegol am gam o sicrwydd cost rhesymol yw cam D Sefydliad Brenhinol Penseiri Prydain. Nid hwn yw’r cam yn union cyn ichi ddechrau adeiladu, ond mae’n agos at hynny. I gyrraedd cam D mae angen tua £2 filiwn mewn ffïoedd yn unig a rhyw bum neu chwe mis o waith gan benseiri a maintfesurwyr. Felly, ni chredaf fod y sefyllfa mor bendant ag y disgrifiwch, er mai dyna y byddwn yn ei ddymuno.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 18

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Whichever way you try to spin this, Rhodri, your Government’s approach towards this problem has been one of indecision and dithering. What did you do to try to broker a deal between Grosvenor Waterside and the Wales Millennium Centre? Is it not embarrassing that the leader of Cardiff City and County Council had to negotiate on the Government of Wales’ behalf and broker a deal in an attempt to buy the land? Are you not the slightest bit embarrassed by that?

Pa bynnag wedd y byddwch yn ceisio ei rhoi ar hyn, Rhodri, ymagwedd o ddiffyg penderfyniad ac ansicrwydd fu ymagwedd eich Llywodraeth tuag at y broblem hon. Beth a wnaethoch chi i geisio cael bargen rhwng Grosvenor Waterside a Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru? Onid yw’n destun embaras bod arweinydd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd wedi gorfod negodi ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru a chael bargen mewn ymdrech i brynu’r tir? Onid yw hynny wedi achosi rhywfaint o embaras i chi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I did not know that Jonathan was a fully paid-up member of the Russell Goodway fan club, but I am interested to hear of his new appointment. Russell mentioned to me that he might be willing to buy the land to hold the option open and I commended him and told him, if he could do that and if he could afford to do that, to go ahead. Three weeks later he bought the land and I was pleased because it keeps the option open. The issue is simple: if we had cost certainty we would know where we were. The advice that we receive from our consultants is that we are nowhere near even 80 per cent cost certainty. As a result, you might be talking about a £15 million contribution from the Assembly now, but it could turn into £50 million. If the building were half-built when the cost overruns were discovered, you know who the first port of call would be. People like you, Jonathan, and Owen John Thomas would say that we had to finish the project. Where would the money come from? It is all very well talking about indecision and dithering when what you mean is have you got £50 million spare for this project, when we do not.

Ni wyddwn fod Jonathan yn aelod llawn o glwb cefnogwyr Russell Goodway, ond mae’n ddiddorol clywed am ei benodiad newydd. Crybwyllodd Russell wrthyf y byddai, o bosibl, yn fodlon prynu’r tir er mwyn cadw’r opsiwn ar agor ac fe’i canmolais gan ddweud wrtho, os gallai wneud hynny ac os gallai fforddio i wneud hynny, i fynd yn ei flaen. Dair wythnos yn ddiweddarach prynodd y tir ac yr oeddwn yn falch gan ei fod yn cadw’r opsiwn yn agored. Mae’r mater yn syml: pe bai gennym sicrwydd cost byddem yn gwybod beth fyddai’r sefyllfa. Y cyngor a gawn gan ein hymgynghorwyr yw nad ydym yn agos at sicrwydd cost o 80 y cant o bell ffordd. O ganlyniad, gallech fod yn sôn am gyfraniad o £15 miliwn gan y Cynulliad yn awr, ond gallai droi yn £50 miliwn. Petai’r adeilad wedi hanner ei adeiladu ar adeg darganfod gor-wariant, gwyddoch pwy fyddai’r cyswllt cyntaf. Byddai pobl fel chi, Jonathan, ac Owen John Thomas yn dweud y byddai’n rhaid inni orffen y prosiect. O ble y deuai’r arian? Hawdd yw siarad am ddiffyg penderfyniad ac ansicrwydd pan mai’r hyn yr ydych yn ei olygu yw a oes gennych £50 miliwn i’w sbario ar gyfer y prosiect hwn, pan nad yw’r arian hwnnw gennym.

Targedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’

‘Betterwales.com’ Targets

C2 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Q2 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 19

A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddatganiad byr ar y camau a gymerwyd i wireddu targedau 2010 yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’? (OAQ7007)

Will the First Secretary make a brief statement on the progress towards the 2010 targets in ‘Betterwales.com’? (OAQ7007)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 19

Mae’r targedau a bennwyd ar gyfer 2010 yng nghanol ffocws cylch cyllideb presennol y Cynulliad. Mae gwybodaeth ar hyn wedi cael ei rhoi i bob Pwyllgor Pwnc yn ystod y cylch presennol. Mae gennym wybodaeth fod y targedau sydd yn cael eu hystyried yn hollol realistig ac, felly, mae arnom angen ffordd i drawsnewid targedau yn realiti yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf. Yr ydym yn parhau i ddiweddaru’r targedau hyn gydag unrhyw newidiadau sydd wedi digwydd ers cyhoeddi ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Os bydd yn rhaid gwneud newidiadau i adolygu perthnasedd y targedau a bennwyd wrth baratoi’r ddogfen honno, yr ydym yn agored ac yn barod i drafod materion o’r fath. Efallai fod modd cryfhau rhai o’r targedau hynny, ond dylid gwneud hynny drwy gytundeb â’r Cynulliad cyfan.

The targets that have been set for 2010 are at the centre of focus of the Assembly’s current budget round. Information on this has been given to each Subject Committee during the current round. We have information that the targets under consideration are totally realistic and, therefore, we want a way to translate targets into reality over the ensuing years. We continue to update these targets with any changes that have taken place since the publication of ‘Betterwales.com’. If changes need to be made to review the relevance of the targets that were set in preparation for that document, we are open and willing to discuss such matters. Perhaps we can strengthen some of those targets, but it should be done with the agreement of the whole Assembly.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 20

Efallai mai priodol hefyd yw gofyn i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am berthynas ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a’r ddogfen goalisiwn ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership Agreement for the People of Wales’. Hyrwyddo dwyieithrwydd yw un o amcanion clir ‘Gwellcymru.com’, ac mae’n un o flaenoriaethau uchaf y rhan sydd yn ymwneud â gweledigaeth. Cefais fy synnu nad yw’r ddogfen goalisiwn yn gwneud unrhyw gyfeiriad o werth at ddwyieithrwydd a’r iaith Gymraeg. Crybwyllir ef yn fyr wrth sôn am roi rhagor o arian i’r mentrau iaith. Yn gyntaf, a fyddai’r diffyg hwnnw yn bresennol pe bai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi ymgynghori â Tom Middlehurst wrth baratoi’r ddogfen? Yn ail, beth fydd agwedd y coalisiwn arfaethedig at ddwyieithrwydd a’r arolwg polisi sydd i ddigwydd ar y mater hwnnw?

Perhaps it is also appropriate to ask the First Secretary about the relationship between ‘Betterwales.com’ and the coalition document ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership Agreement for the People of Wales’. The promotion of bilingualism is a clear objective of ‘Betterwales.com’, and is one of the highest priorities of the part that deals with vision. I was surprised that the coalition document does not make any reference of value to bilingualism and the Welsh language. It is mentioned briefly in reference to giving more money to the language initiatives. First, would that deficiency have existed had the First Secretary consulted Tom Middlehurst in preparing this document? Secondly, what will the attitude of the proposed coalition be towards bilingualism and the policy review that is to take place on that issue?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 20

Egwyddor bwysig fy ateb, wrth ddweud bod cwestiwn Cynog wedi ei seilio ar gamddealltwriaeth llwyr, yw na chaiff y targedau yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ eu negyddu yn y ddogfen bartneriaeth. Nid ydym yn cymryd unrhyw beth oddi wrth dargedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’, a bydd unrhyw welliannau yn mynd ar ben y targedau hynny heb gymryd unrhyw beth oddi wrthynt.

The important principle of my answer, while saying that Cynog’s question was based on a complete misunderstanding, is that the targets in ‘Betterwales.com’ will not be negated in the partnership document. We are not taking anything away from the ‘Betterwales.com’ targets, and any amendments will be added to those targets without taking anything away from them.

David Melding spoken in English p. 20

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

First Secretary, are you still committed to cutting waiting times? This is a central element of ‘Betterwales.com’. However, it does not appear in your coalition manifesto with the Liberal Democrats. I realise that you did not write it, but is that disparity not alarming?

Brif Ysgrifennydd, a ydych yn parhau i fod yn ymrwymedig i gwtogi amseroedd aros? Mae hyn yn elfen ganolog o ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n ymddangos yn eich maniffesto clymblaid gyda’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Deallaf nad chi a’i ysgrifennodd, ond onid yw’r diffyg cyffelybiaeth hwnnw yn frawychus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I will repeat my previous answer. Your question has arisen from a complete misunderstanding. Nothing is being taken away from previous targets. The content of the partnership agreement does not contradict what we have agreed previously as Assembly policy. What I, Jane Hutt and the Health and Social Services Committee have said about waiting times remains the Assembly’s policy. I suspect that further instruction is being given to you, David, by Dr Gibbons at the back, which may take this matter further than my answer. Nothing has been taken from ‘Betterwales.com’ in order to change the policy for the partnership proposal—it is all additional.

Ailadroddaf fy ateb blaenorol. Mae eich cwestiwn wedi codi o gamddealltwriaeth llwyr. Nid oes unrhyw beth yn cael ei dynnu oddi wrth y targedau blaenorol. Nid yw cynnwys y cytundeb partneriaeth yn gwrth-ddweud yr hyn y cytunwyd arno yn gynharach fel polisi’r Cynulliad. Yr hyn yr wyf fi, Jane Hutt a’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi’i ddweud ynglŷn ag amseroedd aros yw polisi’r Cynulliad o hyd. Tybiaf fod cyfarwyddyd pellach yn cael ei roi ichi, David, gan Dr Gibbons yn y cefn, a all fynd â’r mater hwn ymhellach na’m hateb i. Nid oes unrhyw beth wedi cael ei dynnu oddi ar ‘Gwellcymru.com’ er mwyn newid y polisi ar gyfer y cynnig paratneriaeth—mae popeth yn ychwanegol.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 21

Yr oeddem yn credu ein bod wedi deall beth sydd yn y ddogfen, ond yr ydych bellach yn cymylu hynny. Tynnaf eich sylw at union eiriau’r cytundeb partneriaeth rhyngoch chi a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, sef—a dyfynnaf yn Saesneg gan mai fersiwn Saesneg yn unig sydd gennym—

We believed that we had understood what is in the document, but it has now been clouded by you. I draw your attention to the exact wording of the partnership agreement between you and the Liberal Democrats, which is—and I quote in English because we only have an English version—

‘It is agreed that the general policies and processes presently in place, set out for instance in betterwales.com, shall be supported unless amended by the policy agreement’.

A ydych chi’n dweud, felly, na fydd unrhyw newid i’r hyn sydd yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ac, os ceir diwygiad, y bydd hynny’n ychwanegiad i’r ddogfen ac nid yn lle unrhyw beth?

Are you saying, therefore, that the contents of ‘Betterwales.com’ will not be changed and, if there is a revision, it will be in addition to the document and not instead of anything?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 21

Dyna yw fy ystyriaeth i. Ni allaf ddweud yn sicr, wrth ystyried dogfen sydd tua 25 tudalen o hyd, nad oes unrhyw beth ynddi a ystyrir yn ddiwygiad. Yr wyf 99.9 y cant yn sicr eich bod yn ceisio hollti blew, Ieuan. Yr wyf yn sefydlu’r egwyddor ac yn rhoi addewid i’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru. Dyna yw’r addewid y gallaf ei gwneud. Os ydych chi eisiau chwarae gemau drwy hollti blew, nid yw’n broblem gennyf. Eich polisi chi yw ceisio gwneud hynny, yn hytrach na cheisio adeiladu Cymru well.

That is my consideration. I cannot say for certain, with regard to a document that is about 25 pages long, that there is nothing in it that is considered to be a revision. I am 99.9 per cent sure that you are trying to split hairs, Ieuan. I am establishing the principle and giving a promise to the Assembly and the people of Wales. That is the promise that I can make. If you want to play games by splitting hairs, I do not have a problem with that. It is your policy to do that, instead of trying to build a better Wales.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 21

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 3 Dai Lloyd yn ôl gan ei fod yn cynrychioli’r Cynulliad yn Iwerddon.

Dai Lloyd’s question 3 has been withdrawn as he is in Ireland representing the Assembly.

Adolygiad o’r Cynulliad (Concordatiau)

Assembly Review (Concordats)

Q4 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 22

C4 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will discussion of concordats fall within the remit of the Assembly review announced on 12 July? (OAQ7015)

A fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn trafod concordatiau yn rhan o’r adolygiad o’r Cynulliad a gyhoeddwyd ar 12 Gorffennaf? (OAQ7015)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

This is a difficult question for me to answer because I am not accountable to the Assembly, as First Secretary, for the content of the review. This is an across the board policy for a review body, which will be chaired by the Presiding Officer and will involve the four party leaders. I can only give you a personal opinion and will be happy to listen to other opinions. Personally, I do not believe that the concordats are a suitable subject for the review. However, I am happy to take other views into account. It is the Assembly’s review, not mine, and it will be chaired by the Presiding Officer.

Mae hwn yn gwestiwn anodd imi ei ateb gan nad wyf yn atebol i’r Cynulliad, fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, am gynnwys yr adolygiad. Mae hwn yn bolisi cyffredinol ar gyfer corff adolygu, a gaiff ei gadeirio gan y Llywydd ac a fydd yn cynnwys arweinyddion y pedair plaid. Dim ond barn bersonol y gallaf ei rhoi ichi a byddaf yn fwy na bodlon gwrando ar farnau eraill. Yn bersonol, ni chredaf fod y concordatiau yn bwnc addas ar gyfer yr adolygiad. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried safbwyntiau eraill. Adolygiad y Cynulliad ydyw, nid fy un i, a chaiff ei gadeirio gan y Llywydd.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 22

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

On the matter of whether or not the question was in order, I can say that it was accepted by the Table Office.

O ran y mater o pa un ai a oedd y cwestiwn mewn trefn, gallaf ddweud ei fod wedi cael ei dderbyn gan y Swyddfa Gyflwyno.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Oral questions that are accepted by the Table Office are in order.

Mae cwestiynau llafar a dderbynnir gan y Swyddfa Gyflwyno mewn trefn.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 22

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The question was therefore in order.

Felly yr oedd y cwestiwn mewn trefn.

Is the First Secretary aware of the concordat on statistics? Given the dispute over the right to register Welsh nationality on the census form, of what use has that concordat been to Welsh democracy and at what stage in that dispute proceeding is the First Secretary?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ymwybodol o’r concordat ar ystadegau? O gofio’r anghydfod dros yr hawl i gofrestru cenedligrwydd Cymreig ar ffurflen y cyfrifiad, pa ddefnydd fu’r concordat hwnnw i ddemocratiaeth Cymru ac ar ba gam yn yr anghydfod hwnnw y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I am sorry if Jocelyn thinks that I said that the question was out of order. I made no such reference. The question is clearly in order. If Jocelyn wants to address the substantive issue of where we are on the discussions on the census tick box, it would be easier if she asked that question.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf os cred Jocelyn fy mod wedi dweud bod y cwestiwn allan o drefn. Ni wneuthum unrhyw gyfeiriad o’r fath. Mae’r cwestiwn yn amlwg mewn trefn. Os yw Jocelyn am fynd i’r afael â’r mater sylweddol ynglŷn â beth yw’r sefyllfa o ran y trafodaethau ar flwch ticio’r cyfrifiad, byddai’n haws pe bai wedi gofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw.

I attended a video-conference meeting involving two UK Government ministers yesterday to try to press further the case for a late change on the census forms. Clearly, it would be a very late change, because as Jocelyn knows there was extensive consultation on the content of the census and the forms have all been printed. However, we do not think that that is enough because the political situation is that everyone in Wales has seen the content of the Scottish census—which was a devolved matter in Scotland—so they want the same here. However, it is difficult to change the census forms after they have been printed without incurring substantial additional expenditure ranging from £1 million to £2 million. That is not clear, but we continue to press Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Government department that is ultimately responsible for this. I am sure that I have Jocelyn’s and all Assembly parties’ support on this matter.

Mynychais gyfarfod fideo-gynhadledd gyda dau weinidog o Lywodraeth y DU ddoe i geisio dwyn rhagor o bwysau dros yr achos am newid munud olaf i ffurflenni’r cyfrifiad. Yn amlwg, byddai’n newid hwyr iawn, oherwydd fel y gwŷr Jocelyn bu ymgynghori helaeth ar gynnwys y cyfrifiad ac mae’r ffurflenni i gyd wedi eu hargraffu. Fodd bynnag, ni chredwn fod hynny yn ddigon oherwydd y sefyllfa wleidyddol yw fod pawb yng Nghymru wedi gweld cynnwys cyfrifiad yr Alban—a oedd yn fater a ddatganolwyd yn yr Alban—felly maent am gael yr un peth yma. Fodd bynnag, mae’n anodd newid ffurflenni’r cyfrifiad wedi iddynt gael eu hargraffu heb achosi gwariant ychwanegol sylweddol yn amrywio o £1 miliwn i 2 filiwn. Nid yw hynny’n glir, ond parhawn i roi pwysau ar Drysorlys Ei Mawrhydi, yr adran o’r Llywodraeth sydd yn gyfrifol am hyn yn y pen draw. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod plaid Jocelyn a phob plaid yn y Cynulliad yn fy nghefnogi ar y mater hwn.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 23

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

When will the first meeting of the Assembly review take place? It was supposed to take place in early September. When it takes place and if the coalition goes ahead, will the Liberal Democrats be a separate part of that review? If they are part of a coalition, they cannot also be a separate party; they cannot have it both ways. They should be ruled out of that and many other things.

Pryd y cynhelir cyfarfod cyntaf adolygiad y Cynulliad? Yr oedd i fod i gael ei gynnal ddechrau Medi. Pan gaiff ei gynnal ac os bydd y glymblaid yn mynd rhagddi, a fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn rhan ar wahân o’r adolygiad hwnnw? Os ydynt yn rhan o glymblaid, ni allant hefyd fod yn blaid ar wahân; ni allant gael y ddau beth. Dylent gael eu heithrio o hynny ac o lawer o bethau eraill.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

We will reconsider that question after next week.

Byddwn yn ailystyried y cwestiwn hwnnw ar ôl yr wythnos nesaf.

Rôl y Cynulliad mewn Argyfwng Cenedlaethol

The Role of the Assembly in a National Emergency

Q5 Peter Black spoken in English p. 23

C5 Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will the First Secretary clarify the National Assembly for Wales’s role in the event of a national emergency? (OAQ6799)

A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd grisialu rôl Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru pe digwydd argyfwng cenedlaethol? (OAQ6799)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Central Government in London is responsible for the overall policy for managing a national emergency, strategic command and decision making. Decisions are implemented by the responsible Government departments and devolved administrations on those areas for which they have direct responsibility and, what is most important locally, by the police gold commands, working in close partnerships with local agencies via local authorities and so on. The principle is to provide flexibility for local solutions wherever possible. The Assembly’s role is to co-ordinate information and priorities for the services for which it is responsible and to influence central Government action and decision-making that would reflect the needs of the people of Wales.

Llywodraeth ganolog yn Llundain sydd yn gyfrifol am y polisi cyffredinol dros reoli argyfwng cenedlaethol, rheolaeth strategol a gwneud penderfyniadau. Gweithredir penderfyniadau gan yr adrannau o’r llywodraeth sydd yn gyfrifol amdanynt a’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig ar y meysydd hynny y mae ganddynt hwy gyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol drostynt ac, yr hyn sydd bwysicaf yn lleol, gan reolaethau aur yr heddlu, gan weithio mewn partneriaethau agos ag asiantaethau lleol drwy awdurdodau lleol ac ati. Yr egwyddor yw darparu hyblygrwydd ar gyfer atebion lleol lle bynnag y mae’n bosibl. Rôl y Cynulliad yw cydlynu gwybodaeth a blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gwasanaethau y mae’n gyfrifol amdanynt a dylanwadu ar weithredoedd a phenderfyniadau Llywodraeth ganolog a fyddai’n adlewyrchu anghenion pobl Cymru.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 24

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I thank the First Secretary for that answer. Does he accept that many local authorities are unhappy about how the National Assembly handled the petrol crisis? They felt that they were not getting the information that they needed, and that there was a lack of co-ordination by the Assembly. Does he accept the need to consult with local authorities and other interested parties to put together a formal strategy by which the Assembly will respond to such crises in Wales?

Diolchaf i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am yr ateb hwnnw. A yw’n derbyn fod nifer o awdurdodau lleol yn anhapus ynghylch sut y bu i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ymdrin â’r argyfwng tanwydd? Teimlasant nad oeddent yn cael y wybodaeth yr oedd ei hangen arnynt, a bod diffyg cydlynu gan y Cynulliad. A yw’n derbyn yr angen i ymgynghori ag awdurdodau lleol a phartïon eraill sydd â diddordeb er mwyn llunio strategaeth ffurfiol y bydd y Cynulliad yn ei dilyn wrth ymateb i argyfyngau o’r fath yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I hope that you are not suggesting that we rewrite the settlement so that the Assembly becomes responsible for national emergency planning in Wales. That would be inappropriate because we do not have police and fire powers. We run the health service, and local government is responsible to us rather than central Government. It is vital that local decisions are taken through the police gold command structure. Local chief constables usually chair meetings on matters of emergency. They are the key people responsible for getting an emergency structure up and running as soon as there is a national emergency. The Assembly’s role is to co-ordinate what happens in Wales to ensure that there is a good flow of information between central Government and the Assembly and between the Assembly and the local gold command structures chaired by the police. I would not go along with any suggestion that we fundamentally rewrite the responsibility for national planning for emergencies.

Gobeithiaf nad ydych yn awgrymu ein bod yn ailysgrifennu’r setliad fel bod y Cynulliad yn dod yn gyfrifol am gynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau cenedlaethol yng Nghymru. Byddai hynny yn amhriodol gan nad oes gennym y pwerau o ran yr heddlu na’r gwasanaeth tân. Yr ydym yn rhedeg y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac mae llywodraeth leol yn atebol i ni yn hytrach na Llywodraeth ganolog. Mae’n hanfodol y gwneir penderfyniadau lleol drwy strwythur rheolaeth aur yr heddlu. Prif gwnstabliaid lleol sydd fel arfer yn cadeirio cyfarfodydd ar faterion o argyfwng. Nhw yw’r bobl allweddol sydd yn gyfrifol am roi strwythur argyfwng ar waith cyn gynted ag y bydd argyfwng cenedlaethol. Rôl y Cynulliad yw cydlynu’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru i sicrhau bod llif gwybodaeth dda rhwng Llywodraeth ganolog a’r Cynulliad a rhwng y Cynulliad a’r strwythurau rheolaeth aur lleol o dan gadeiryddiaeth yr heddlu. Ni fyddwn yn cytuno ag unrhyw awgrym y dylem ailysgrifennu’r cyfrifoldeb dros gynllunio cenedlaethol ar gyfer argyfyngau yn sylweddol.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 25

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Does the First Secretary accept that the public perception of the Government of Wales’s role during the recent fuel crisis was one of dithering, indecision and powerlessness? What steps has he taken to ensure that the Government of Wales is seen to take a lead as far as is appropriate within our powers and to have some control in the event of any future national emergency?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn derbyn bod y cyhoedd yn amgyffred rôl Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystod yr argyfwng tanwydd fel un o ansicrwydd, diffyg penderfyniad a diffyg pŵer? Pa gamau a gymerodd i sicrhau bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cael ei gweld fel un sydd yn cymryd yr arweiniad cyhyd ag y bo’n briodol o fewn ein pwerau ac i gael peth rheolaeth os digwydd argyfwng cenedlaethol yn y dyfodol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 25

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Helen Mary is trying to rewrite the Government of Wales Act 1998, probably not for the first time. Trying to persuade the public that we have a different role to that actually laid down in law would be terribly misleading and irresponsible. We did our best, given the powers that we had, and the extraordinary willingness of our officials to work—sometimes through the night—in setting up the emergency room. It was not an emergency control room but an emergency information and co-ordination centre. It fulfilled its role splendidly and I pay tribute to all the Assembly officials who volunteered to work in that room.

Mae Helen Mary yn ceisio ailysgrifennu Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, nid am y tro cyntaf fwy na thebyg. Byddai ceisio argyhoeddi’r cyhoedd bod gennym rôl wahanol i’r hyn a nodir yn y gyfraith yn hynod o gamarweiniol ac anghyfrifol. Gwnaethom ein gorau, o gofio’r pwerau oedd gennym, a pharodrwydd rhyfeddol ein swyddogion i weithio—drwy’r nos weithiau—i sefydlu’r ystafell argyfwng. Nid oedd yn ystafell rheoli argyfwng ond yn hytrach yn ganolfan gwybodaeth a chydlynu mewn argyfwng. Cyflawnodd ei rôl yn wych a thalaf deyrnged i holl swyddogion y Cynulliad a wirfoddolodd i weithio yn yr ystafell honno.

Hyrwyddo Delwedd Cymru

Promoting the Image of Wales

Q6 Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 25

C6 Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

How has the First Secretary promoted the image of Wales over the last 12 months? (OAQ7008)

Sut y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi hyrwyddo delwedd Cymru yn y 12 mis diwethaf? (OAQ7008)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 25

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

The Assembly is working with other public-sector bodies and agencies to develop a co-ordinated and coherent approach at an all-Wales level to maximise opportunities. This includes the development of a package of quality promotional material, not previously available: a CD-ROM, a website and the identification of overseas events to promote Wales.

Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithio gyda chyrff ac asiantaethau sector cyhoeddus eraill i ddatblygu ymagwedd gydlynus a chyson ar lefel Cymru gyfan i gael y cyfleoedd mwyaf posibl. Mae hyn yn cynnwys datblygu pecyn o ddeunydd hyrwyddo o safon, nad oedd ar gael cyn hyn: CD-ROM, gwefan a nodi digwyddiadau dramor er mwyn hyrwyddo Cymru.

Much has already been achieved in raising Wales’s profile. On 21 September, I met with a number of key interests with specialist knowledge of marketing and of marketing Wales. The problem of Wales’s low profile in the past and the better promotion of the image of Wales were discussed. Over the next few months I shall look to build on the work already done. I shall come back to the Assembly to fulfil the promise that was made by Alun Michael—some months before he ceased to be First Secretary—that we would hold a discussion and debate on raising Wales’s profile, once we have drawn together the results of the marketeers’ meeting that I chaired on 21 September.

Mae llawer eisoes wedi’i gyflawni wrth godi proffil Cymru. Ar 21 Medi, cyfarfûm â nifer o bobl allweddol â diddordeb â gwybodaeth arbenigol am farchnata a marchnata Cymru. Trafodwyd y broblem o broffil isel Cymru yn y gorffennol a hyrwyddo delwedd Cymru yn well. Dros yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf bwriadaf adeiladu ar y gwaith sydd eisoes wedi’i wneud. Dychwelaf i’r Cynulliad i gyflawni’r addewid a wnaethpwyd gan Alun Michael—rai misoedd cyn iddo roi’r gorau i fod yn Brif Ysgrifennydd—y byddem yn cynnal trafodaeth a dadl ar godi proffil Cymru, unwaith y byddwn wedi tynnu ynghyd ganlyniadau cyfarfod y marchnatwyr a gadeiriais ar 21 Medi.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 26

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Nothing will do more for Wales’s clean, green image than a declaration that Wales should be nuclear-free and GM-free. Unfortunately, however, seeds of doubt have been cast on that. Acknowledging that promoting the image of Wales is a heavy and demanding role, have you considered whether those duties would be best placed in the new portfolio of the Culture Secretary or the new post of Deputy First Secretary?

Ni fyddai dim yn gwneud mwy dros ddelwedd lân, werdd Cymru na datganiad y dylai Cymru fod yn ddi-niwclear ac yn rhydd o gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig. Yn anffodus, fodd bynnag, bwriwyd amheuon ar hynny. Gan gydnabod bod hyrwyddo delwedd Cymru yn rôl drom lle mae’r gofynion yn uchel, a ydych wedi ystyried a fyddai’r dyletswyddau hynny yn gweddu’n well ym mhortffolio newydd yr Ysgrifennydd Diwylliant neu swydd newydd y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

The first part of your question is interesting because everyone can use this question of the image of Wales to put forward a specific view about a specific vested interest, and can say: ‘Without that’—being GM-free, or nuclear-free, or whatever— ‘you are not doing enough to raise the profile of Wales.’ What they actually mean is: ‘I am in favour of a GM-free Wales, or I am in favour of a nuclear-free Wales, and this is a handy peg on which to hang the argument.’ It is not actually about Wales’s image; it is using the question of the image of Wales to promote a particular cause in which they happen to believe. That is perfectly OK, but it is not what you are trying to do when you raise Wales’s profile. You have to do that on an across the board basis.

Mae rhan gyntaf eich cwestiwn yn ddiddorol oherwydd gall unrhyw un ddefnyddio’r cwestiwn hwn ynglŷn â delwedd Cymru i gyflwyno barn benodol am ddiddordeb personol penodol, ac yn gallu dweud: ‘Heb hynny’—boed yn ddi-niwclear, yn rhydd o gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig, neu beth bynnag—‘nid ydych yn gwneud digon i godi proffil Cymru.’ Yr hyn a olygant mewn gwirionedd yw: ‘Yr wyf o blaid Cymru sydd yn rhydd o gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig, neu yr wyf o blaid Cymru ddi-niwclear, ac mae hwn yn fachyn cyfleus i osod y ddadl arno.’ Nid yw’n ymwneud â delwedd Cymru mewn gwirionedd; mae’n defnyddio’r cwestiwn ynghylch delwedd Cymru i hyrwyddo achos arbennig y maent yn digwydd credu ynddo. Mae hynny’n berffaith iawn, ond nid dyma y byddwch yn ceisio ei wneud pan fyddwch yn codi proffil Cymru. Mae’n rhaid ichi wneud hynny ar sail gyffredinol.

Now, which Cabinet Secretaries are responsible for which portfolios is a matter to which I will return next week.

Yn awr, mae pa Ysgrifenyddion Cabinet sydd yn gyfrifol am ba bortffolios yn fater y byddaf yn dychwelyd ato yr wythnos nesaf.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 27

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Leadership is an important part of Wales’s image. Against that background, with the stalled Objective 1 not having spent one penny towards the end of the first year, after all the delay and indecision we had before you finally came around and saw the light on Broughton, after your party’s total lack of control on the fuel crisis, and given the backroom deals that we have seen in this last week, are you in a position to start to rectify the image that you have given by naming the two posts that you have offered to the ‘Deputy First Secretary presumptive’, to give him his current full title, and who, from the Liberal Democrats, will be filling those posts?

Mae arweinyddiaeth yn rhan bwysig o ddelwedd Cymru. Yn erbyn y cefndir hwnnw, gyda’r rhaglen Amcan 1 ohiriedig heb wario ceiniog tuag at ddiwedd y flwyddyn gyntaf, ar ôl yr holl oedi a’r diffyg penderfyniad cyn i chi yn y pen draw weld y goleuni ynglŷn â Brychdyn, ar ôl methiant llwyr eich plaid i reoli’r argyfwng tanwydd, ac o gofio’r bargeinion ystafell gefn yr ydym wedi’u gweld yn ystod yr wythnos diwethaf, a ydych mewn sefyllfa i ddechrau unioni’r ddelwedd a grewyd gennych drwy enwi’r ddwy swydd a gynigiwyd gennych i’r ‘Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd tybiadol’, i roi ei deitl llawn cyfredol iddo, a phwy, o blith y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, fydd yn llenwi’r ddwy swydd honno?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

That is a matter to which I shall return next week. I accept the knockabout in the Assembly. There are four parties represented in the Assembly, and there will be four parties represented in the Assembly next week. [CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Four and a bit.’] Sorry, four and a bit, then. It is the natural knockabout of politics that the leader of the Tory Party will use any opportunity to say, ‘You have not done your job very well.’ I would be frightened if Nick Bourne got up one day and said, ‘You have done your job very well, Rhodri’—

Byddaf yn dychwelyd at y mater hwnnw yr wythnos nesaf. Derbyniaf y dadlau sydd yn y Cynulliad. Cynrychiolir pedair plaid yn y Cynulliad, a chynrychiolir pedair plaid yn y Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf. [AELODAU CEIDWADOL O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Pedair a thipyn.’] Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, pedair a thipyn, felly. Rhan o’r dadlau naturiol mewn gwleidyddiaeth yw y bydd arweinydd y Blaid Dorïaidd yn defnyddio unrhyw gyfle i ddweud, ‘Nid ydych wedi gwneud eich gwaith yn dda iawn.’ Byddai’n codi ofn arnaf petai Nick Bourne yn codi un diwrnod ac yn dweud, ‘Yr ydych wedi gwneud eich gwaith yn dda iawn, Rhodri’—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 27

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

There is no danger of that.

Nid oes unrhyw berygl o hynny.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Absolutely. I cannot tell you how comforted I am by that assurance, Nick, that there will never be an occasion on which you will accuse me of exercising leadership well on behalf of the Labour Party and the Labour administration in the Assembly.

Yn sicr. Ni allaf ddweud wrthych faint o gysur a rydd y sicrwydd hwnnw i mi, Nick, na fydd yna byth achlysur pan fyddwch yn fy nghyhuddo o weithredu arweinyddiaeth dda ar ran y Blaid Lafur a’r weinyddiaeth Lafur yn y Cynulliad.

Cyflenwadau o Danwydd ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Hanfodol

Fuel Supplies for Essential Services

Q7 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 28

C7 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the UK Government regarding securing supplies of fuel for essential services? (OAQ7016)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi’u cael gyda llywodraeth y DU ynghylch sicrhau cyflenwadau o danwydd ar gyfer gwasanaethau hanfodol? (OAQ7016)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I have had many discussions. I am a member of the UK Government fuel taskforce, which is considering that matter among others. I will return to that.

Yr wyf wedi cael llawer o drafodaethau. Yr wyf yn aelod o dasglu tanwydd Llywodraeth y DU, sydd yn ystyried y mater hwnnw ymysg rhai eraill. Byddaf yn dychwelyd at hynny.

Officials are undertaking further work and the Assembly is playing a full and active part in this. As a member of the fuel taskforce, I am a signatory of a memorandum of understanding between the UK Government, trade unions and oil and haulage companies. That commits oil companies to work with the Government and the police to maintain security of supplies, including those to essential users. In addition, all parties have agreed early warning systems, co-ordinated contingency plans and crisis management systems. They have agreed to facilitate movement of oil fuel to users; in particular, defined essential users. I have arranged for a copy of the memorandum of understanding document to be placed in the Library.

Mae swyddogion yn ymgymryd â gwaith pellach ac mae’r Cynulliad yn chwarae rhan lawn a gweithredol yn hyn. Fel aelod o’r tasglu tanwydd, yr wyf yn llofnodwr memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth rhwng Llywodraeth y DU, undebau llafur a chwmnïau olew a chludo nwyddau. Mae hynny’n ymrwymo cwmnïau olew i weithio gyda’r Llywodraeth a’r heddlu i gynnal diogelwch cyflenwadau, gan gynnwys y rhai i ddefnyddwyr hanfodol. Yn ogystal, mae pob plaid wedi cytuno ar systemau rhybuddio cynnar, cynlluniau wrth gefn cydlynus a systemau rheoli argyfyngau. Maent wedi cytuno i hwyluso symud tanwydd olew i ddefnyddwyr; yn arbennig, defnyddwyr hanfodol penodedig. Yr wyf wedi trefnu bod copi o’r ddogfen memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth yn cael ei rhoi yn y Llyfrgell.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 28

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Thank you for that reply. However, I am concerned that you omitted two factors. You do not seem to take a long-term view of this problem. You have not addressed the problems of extra costs to services in rural areas, and you have displayed a lack of vision in developing a strategy for alternative fuels such as liquefied petroleum gas.

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn bryderus eich bod wedi anwybyddu dwy ffactor. Nid ymddengys eich bod yn cymryd golwg tymor hir ar y broblem hon. Nid ydych wedi mynd i’r afael â phroblemau costau ychwanegol i wasanaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ac yr ydych wedi dangos diffyg gweledigaeth wrth ddatblygu strategaeth ar gyfer tanwydd amgen fel nwy petroliwm hylifedig.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Those issues were not in your question, so it is not surprising that I did not address them. Your question was about securing supplies, so that was a fair answer. I support LPG. My car does not run on it, but it is a worthwhile alternative. I wish that more people would use it. Often, motorists do not use LPG because they believe that they will not have access to filling stations. They do not realise that there is a reserve tank of petrol in cars that run on LPG. Therefore, for example, they will not get stranded in the middle of your constituency, Mick, on their way from north to south Wales. That is the sort of fear that people have. LPG is a viable alternative and it should be pursued strongly by many public service fleet users and buyers.

Nid oedd y materion hynny yn eich cwestiwn, felly nid yw’n syndod fy mod heb eu hateb. Yr oedd eich cwestiwn yn ymwneud â sicrhau cyflenwadau, felly yr oedd yn ateb teg. Cefnogaf nwy petroliwm hylifedig. Nid yw fy nghar yn rhedeg arno, ond mae’n ddewis amgen gwerth chweil. Byddai’n ddymunol petai mwy o bobl yn ei ddefnyddio. Yn aml, nid yw modurwyr yn defnyddio nwy petroliwm hylifedig gan eu bod yn credu na allant ei gael mewn gorsafoedd tanwydd. Nid ydynt yn sylweddoli bod tanc petrol wrth gefn mewn ceir sydd yn rhedeg ar nwy petroliwm hylifedig. Felly, er enghraifft, ni fyddant yn sownd ynghanol eich etholaeth chi, Mick, ar eu ffordd o ogledd i dde Cymru. Dyna’r math o bryder sydd gan bobl. Mae nwy petroliwm hylifedig yn ddewis amgen ymarferol a dylai nifer o ddefnyddwyr a phrynwyr fflyd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ei ddefnyddio.

On the cost of fuel in rural areas, we realise that it is a good deal higher than in urban areas. I hope that the cost of fuel is beginning to fall on international markets. Long may that continue. If it does not, the Government will be under considerable pressure to take compensatory action.

Ynglŷn â chost tanwydd mewn ardaloedd gwledig, sylweddolwn ei fod gryn dipyn yn uwch nag mewn ardaloedd trefol. Gobeithiaf fod cost tanwydd yn dechrau gostwng mewn marchnadoedd rhyngwladol. Boed i hynny barhau. Os na fydd yn parhau, bydd y Llywodraeth o dan gryn bwysau i gymryd camau iawndal.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 29

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

In the event of another fuel crisis, will you give your assurance that you will take charge, rather than pass the buck to the Secretary for the Environment, Planning and Transport, Sue Essex?

Os digwydd argyfwng tanwydd arall, a wnewch chi roi sicrwydd y byddwch yn cymryd yr awenau, yn hytrach na throsglwyddo’r mater i Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, Sue Essex?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. You may or may not disagree with what Sue Essex said the last time that we had this discussion in the week before the party conferences. Sue did sterling work. If you have criticisms of Sue’s work during that period, you should note your disagreement with what she said or did. To say that I should take charge, because I am some sort of big cheese and Sue is not, is absurd when you have no evidence. On the fuel taskforce, I was asked whether I would represent Wales, which I did. Donald Dewar represented Scotland. That should not be interpreted as a criticism of Sue. It is absurd to suggest that. I will discuss the memorandum of understanding that I signed shortly, if I get the opportunity. However, Sue, as the Secretary for the Environment, Planning and Transport, is the person who is closest to operational issues.

Nid wyf yn siŵr beth yw’r pwynt yr ydych yn ceisio ei wneud. Efallai y byddwch yn cytuno, neu’n anghytuno, â’r hyn a ddywedodd Sue Essex y tro diwethaf inni gael y drafodaeth hon yn yr wythnos cyn cynadleddau’r pleidiau. Gwnaeth Sue waith rhagorol. Os oes gennych feirniadaeth o waith Sue yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, dylech nodi eich anghytundeb gyda’r hyn a ddywedodd neu’r hyn a wnaeth. Mae dweud mai fi ddylai gymryd yr awenau, gan fy mod yn rhyw fath o bwysigyn ac nad yw Sue yn un, yn wallgof pan nad oes gennych dystiolaeth. Ynghylch y tasglu tanwydd, gofynnwyd imi a fyddwn yn cynrychioli Cymru, a gwnes hynny, Cynrychiolwyd yr Alban gan Donald Dewar. Ni ddylai hynny gael ei ddehogli fel beirniadaeth ar Sue. Mae’n wallgof i awgrymu hynny. Trafodaf y memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth a lofnodais yn fuan, os caf y cyfle. Fodd bynnag, fel Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, Sue yw’r person sydd agosaf at faterion gweithredol.

Cyflwyno’r Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol 1998

Introduction of Human Rights Act 1998

Q8 Michael German spoken in English p. 30

C8 Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

What preparations have been made in the Assembly for the introduction of the Human Rights Act 1998? (OAQ7698)

Pa baratoadau sydd wedi’u gwneud yn y Cynulliad ar gyfer cyflwyno’r Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol 1998? (OAQ6798)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

We have carried out a review of the areas of the Assembly’s business to assess the risk of challenge under the Human Rights Act. All Assembly legislation is checked for compliance with human rights. Training and awareness-raising events for staff have been held, and guidance has been issued to all public authorities in Wales. A major conference on the Act was held in Cardiff in May, and another is being organised in north Wales in December. The Human Rights Act came into force in England and Wales on 1 October, although it had been in force in Scotland for some time.

Cynhaliwyd adolygiad gennym o feysydd busnes y Cynulliad i asesu’r risg o her o dan y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol. Caiff holl ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad ei gwirio i sicrhau ei bod yn cydymffurfio â hawliau dynol. Cynhaliwyd digwyddiadau hyfforddi a chodi ymwybyddiaeth i’r staff, a chyhoeddwyd arweiniad i bob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Cynhaliwyd cynhadledd fawr ar y Ddeddf yng Nghaerdydd ym mis Mai, ac mae un arall yn cael ei threfnu yng ngogledd Cymru ym mis Rhagfyr. Daeth y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol i rym yng Nghymru a Lloegr ar 1 Hydref, er iddi fod mewn grym yn yr Alban ers peth amser.

Michael German spoken in English p. 30

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I am sure that you are aware of the concern expressed by many public bodies in Wales about the possibility of legal action being taken against them for past cases. What is your opinion on people bringing forward cases that are ongoing, but which started before the introduction of the Act in Wales?

Yr wyf yn sicr eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r pryder a fynegwyd gan lawer o gyrff cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ynghylch y posibilrwydd o gamau cyfreithiol yn cael eu cymryd yn eu herbyn am achosion yn y gorffennol. Beth yw eich barn ar bobl yn cyflwyno achosion sydd yn barhaus, ond a ddechreuodd cyn cyflwyno’r Ddeddf yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

In Scotland, where the Human Rights Act came into power on 1 July 1999 when power was transferred to the Scottish Parliament, some people have been trying on the Act to see whether they can make a case out of something which was unsuccessful using conventional methods. There have been over 600 cases, of which only three have been won, although some may have not yet been determined. Some may regret that and say that people will try on everything and that this will disrupt the work of courts and public authorities. That may happen during the bedding-in period. However, this is probably the biggest change in the codification of the individual’s rights against the oppressive state since the 1688 Bill of Rights, which was the biggest change since the Magna Carta or, in Wales, since Hywel Dda’s codification of Welsh laws in 900 A.D. This kind of thing is only done once every 300 years. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect a bedding-in period of 12 or 24 months.

Yn yr Alban, lle daeth y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol i rym ar 1 Gorffennaf 1999 pan drosglwyddwyd pŵer i Senedd yr Alban, mae rhai pobl wedi rhoi cynnig ar y Ddeddf i weld a allant ffurfio achos allan o rywbeth a oedd yn aflwyddiannus pan ddefnyddiwyd dulliau confensiynol. Bu dros 600 o achosion, a dim ond tri a enillwyd, er bod rhai o bosibl heb eu penderfynu eto. Efallai y bydd rhai yn teimlo bod hyn yn drueni ac yn dweud y bydd pobl yn rhoi cynnig ar unrhyw beth ac y bydd hyn yn amharu ar waith y llysoedd a’r awdurdodau cyhoeddus. Gallai hynny ddigwydd yn ystod y cyfnod sefydlu. Fodd bynnag, dyma’r newid mwyaf yng nghyfundrefniad hawliau’r unigolyn yn erbyn y wladwriaeth ormesol ers Mesur Hawliau 1688, sef y newid mwyaf ers y Magna Carta neu, yng Nghymru, ers cyfundrefniad Hywel Dda o gyfreithiau Cymru yn 900 O.C. Dim ond unwaith bob 300 mlynedd y gwneir peth o’r fath. Felly, nid yw’n afresymol disgwyl cyfnod sefydlu o 12 neu 24 mis.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 31

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Freedom of speech is one provision of the Human Rights Act. In the Lib-Lab pact, will that freedom of speech extend to the Liberals and, in particular, to the three Members who will remain on the back benches?

Rhyddid barn yw un o ddarpariaethau’r Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol. Yn y cytundeb rhwng Llafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, a fydd y rhyddid barn hwnnw yn ymestyn i’r Rhyddfrydwyr ac, yn arbennig, i’r tri Aelod a fydd yn aros ar y meinciau cefn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 31

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

In a political context, in an assembly or a parliament, freedom of speech has always been constrained by group decisions, cabinet responsibility and so on. One day, Alun may have the pleasure of participating in power, although I cannot think in which country that would be. He may develop the experience, or otherwise he will have to read about it in political biographies. There are rules that apply and they undoubtedly constrain freedom of speech. However, everyone can resign, as Tom has done. There are issues of conscience where the whip is not imposed and everyone can say what they want. It is a balance between the freedom of speech that everyone may want to exercise and participating in a Government on the basis of collective responsibility.

Mewn cyd-destun gwleidyddol, mewn cynulliad neu senedd, mae rhyddid barn wastad wedi’i gyfyngu gan grŵp o benderfyniadau, cyfrifoldebau’r cabinet ac ati. Un diwrnod, efallai y caiff Alun y pleser o gymryd rhan mewn pŵer, er na wn ym mha wlad fyddai hynny. Gallai ddatblygu’r profiad, neu fel arall bydd yn rhaid iddo ddarllen amdano mewn bywgraffiadau gwleidyddol. Mae rheolau sydd yn berthnasol ac maent yn ddi-os yn cyfyngu ar ryddid barn. Fodd bynnag, gall pawb ymddiswyddo, fel y gwnaeth Tom. Mae materion o gydwybod lle na chaiff y chwip ei defnyddio ac y gall pawb ddweud yr hyn a fynnant. Cydbwysedd ydyw rhwng rhyddid barn y gall pawb fod eisiau ei arfer a chymryd rhan mewn Llywodraeth ar sail cyd gyfrifoldeb.

Partneriaeth â Busnes

Partnership with Business

Q9 Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 31

C9 Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Will the First Secretary make a brief statement on the progress of the partnership with business? (OAQ7000)

A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddatganiad byr ynghylch hynt y bartneriaeth â busnes? (OAQ7000)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 31

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Three meetings of the Business Partnership Council have been held to date, including its inaugural meeting, which was held on 16 December 1999. The next meeting is scheduled to take place before the end of the year. Information regarding meetings is available under the training and industry heading on the National Assembly for Wales website.

Cynhaliwyd tri chyfarfod o’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes hyd yma, gan gynnwys ei gyfarfod cychwynnol a gynhaliwyd ar 16 Rhagfyr 1999. Bwriedir cynnal y cyfarfod nesaf cyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Mae’r wybodaeth ynglŷn â chyfarfodydd ar gael o dan y pennawd hyfforddiant a diwydiant ar wefan Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 32

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

At a meeting of the Caerphilly Business Forum last night, a number of colleagues and I in the front panel were asked questions from all kinds of business partnerships. They expressed their disappointment regarding the speed of the fast-track process, the time that it had taken and the uncertainty regarding money. What confidence can you give these partners—the local authority, colleges and businesses—about presenting other projects which they may have? Caerphilly county borough has 42 projects waiting in the sidelines and I am sure that other lead bodies have a similar number. What confidence can you give to them?

Mewn cyfarfod o Fforwm Busnes Caerffili neithiwr, gofynnwyd cwestiynau i nifer o’m cydweithwyr a minnau a oedd ar y panel gan bob math o bartneriaethau busnes. Mynegwyd siom ynghylch cyflymder y broses dull carlam, yr amser a gymerodd a’r ansicrwydd ynghylch arian. Pa hyder y gallwch ei roi i’r partneriaid hyn—yr awdurdod lleol, colegau a busnesau—ynghylch cyflwyno prosiectau eraill sydd ganddynt o bosibl? Mae gan fwrdeistref sirol Caerffili 42 o brosiectau sydd yn aros i gael eu rhoi ar waith ac yr wyf yn siŵr bod gan gyrff arweiniol eraill nifer tebyg. Pa hyder y gallwch ei roi iddynt?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 32

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Brian may be confusing what he defines as ‘partnerships’, which may have been set up initially by the local authority. We are discussing local partnerships, in which local authorities cannot be more than one-third stakeholders. We are now in the last few weeks before the legal agreements are signed with the takers of the fast-track money. I am fairly sure that, in the Caerphilly area, by the end of October, some fast-track money will be released to the partnerships that run some of the schemes that went through the fast-track process in July.

Efallai bod Brian yn drysu ynghylch yr hyn y mae ef yn eu diffinio fel ‘partneriaethau’, a allai fod wedi’u sefydlu yn y lle cyntaf gan yr awdurdod lleol. Yr ydym yn trafod partneriaethau lleol, lle na all awdurdodau lleol fod yn fwy na thraean o’r buddianwyr. Yr ydym yn awr yn yr ychydig wythnosau olaf cyn i’r cytundebau cyfreithiol gael eu llofnodi gyda’r rhai sydd yn cymryd yr arian dull carlam. Yr wyf yn eithaf sicr, erbyn diwedd Hydref, yn ardal Caerffili, y caiff rhywfaint o arian dull carlam ei ryddhau i bartneriaethau sydd yn rhedeg rhai o’r cynlluniau a aeth drwy’r broses dull carlam ym mis Gorffennaf.

On the more general issues relating to Caerphilly County Borough Council, it must persuade the other partners in the partnership that this is not a take-over and that it will not result in council leisure centres wall-to-wall in Caerphilly with no one else getting a look-in. I have the greatest admiration for the way in which Caerphilly is handling this. It is doing a very good job. However, I hope that this will be done on a partnership basis. I also hope that the early releases will take place and that the fruits of this will be seen in the Caerphilly County Borough Council area before very long.

O ran y materion mwy cyffredinol sydd yn ymwneud â Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili, mae’n rhaid iddo ddarbwyllo partneriaid eraill yn y bartneriaeth na fydd yn arwain at ganolfannau hamdden y cyngor ym mhob cwr o Gaerffili heb roi siawns i unrhyw un arall. Mae gennyf edmygedd mawr at y ffordd y mae Caerffili yn ymdrin â hyn. Mae’n gwneud gwaith da iawn. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y caiff hyn ei wneud ar sail partneriaeth. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd yr arian yn cael ei ryddhau’n gynnar ac y gwelir ffrwyth hyn yn ardal Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili cyn bo hir.

Datganiad ar y Cytundeb Partneriaeth

Statement on the Partnership Agreement

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 33

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I am glad to have the opportunity to make a brief statement concerning the policy agreement for a partnership Government, which was published last week by the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrat Party in the Assembly. To place the agreement in context, no one who has been involved in the Assembly’s work since May 1999 can be in any doubt that we have struggled to provide the kind of stable and decisive forum in which policies vital to our nation’s future can be debated and decided. If you begin, as I do, from the premise that all political parties here share an interest in making this institution a success, then we must all be prepared to learn the lessons of our own brief history.

Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i wneud datganiad byr ar y cytundeb polisi ar gyfer Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf gan y Blaid Lafur a Phlaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad. I roi’r cytundeb yn ei gyd-destun, ni all unrhyw un sydd wedi bod yn ymwneud â gwaith y Cynulliad ers Mai 1999 fod ag unrhyw amheuaeth ein bod wedi brwydro i ddarparu’r math o fforwm sefydlog a phendant lle y gall polisïau sydd yn holl bwysig i ddyfodol ein cenedl gael eu trafod a’u penderfynu. Os dechreuwch, fel y gwnaf i, o’r dybiaeth bod pob plaid wleidyddol yma yn rhannu diddordeb mewn gwneud i’r sefydliad hwn lwyddo, yna mae’n rhaid inni oll fod yn barod i ddysgu gwersi o’n hanes byr ni ein hunain.

Last year, the administration succeeded in obtaining an agreement for its most fundamental instrument of government, the budget, only after prolonged and sometimes intractable negotiations. Learning the lessons of that experience, we embarked upon this year’s budget round in pursuit of a more coherent and comprehensive outcome. The search for such a conclusion was made all the more important by the absolute imperative that the Assembly should make the best use of the platform provided for Wales by the comprehensive spending review announced in late July. This year’s budget provides a three-year framework, mapping out our way ahead. That is why coherence and continuity over those three years is so important. Budgets exist to provide the means to achieve policies. As the budget discussions developed it became clear that agreement around a policy programme might be achievable.

Y llynedd, llwyddodd y weinyddiaeth i gael cytundeb ar gyfer ei offeryn llywodraethu mwyaf sylfaenol, y gyllideb, dim ond yn dilyn negodiadau maith ac anhydrin weithiau. Gan ddysgu gwersi o’r profiad hwnnw, cychwynasom ar gylch cyllideb eleni gan anelu at ganlyniad mwy cyson a chynhwysfawr. Yr oedd yr ymgyrch i gael canlyniad o’r fath yn bwysicach byth yn sgîl y rheidrwydd diamod y dylai’r Cynulliad wneud y defnydd gorau o’r llwyfan a ddarparwyd ar gyfer Cymru gan yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant a gyhoeddwyd ddiwedd Gorffennaf. Mae’r gyllideb eleni yn darparu fframwaith tair blynedd, gan nodi ein ffordd ymlaen. Dyna pam bod cydlyniaeth a chysondeb dros y tair blynedd hynny mor bwysig. Mae cyllidebau yn bodoli i ddarparu’r dulliau i gyflawni polisïau. Wrth i benderfyniadau’r gyllideb ddatblygu daeth yn glir y gellid cyflawni cytundeb ynglŷn â pholisi.

The stability necessary to bring that programme into practice depends upon a political arrangement in which both parties to the agreement can be committed to its implementation. Last week, we were able to publish the policy programme, which I am proud to have the chance to put into practice for the people of Wales. The practical achievement of that programme will fall in principle to a partnership government that will bring two Liberal Democrat Members into the Assembly Cabinet. The agreement has already received the unanimous endorsement of the ratification body of my own party. The Liberal Democrats will proceed to their conference for the same purpose over the coming weekend.

Mae’r sefydlogrwydd sydd yn angenrheidiol i roi’r rhaglen ar waith yn dibynnu ar drefniant gwleidyddol lle y gall y ddau barti i’r cytundeb fod yn ymrwymedig i’w weithredu. Yr wythnos diwethaf, llwyddwyd i gyhoeddi ein rhaglen bolisi, ac ymfalchïaf yn y ffaith bod gennyf gyfle i’w rhoi ar waith ar ran pobl Cymru. Bydd cyflawni’r rhaglen honno yn ymarferol mewn egwyddor yn dod i ran llywodraeth bartneriaeth fydd yn dod â dau Aelod o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i Gabinet y Cynulliad. Cafodd y cytundeb eisoes gymeradwyaeth unfrydol corff cymeradwyo fy mhlaid fy hun. Bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mynd ymlaen i’w cynhadledd at yr un diben yn ystod y penwythnos nesaf.

None of this is easy. It is with great regret that I have received and accepted the resignation of Tom Middlehurst as a member of my Cabinet. As a member of the first ever Assembly Cabinet, Tom’s place in the history of modern Welsh politics is secure. His work in the post-16 education field has been widely appreciated, both here in the Chamber and far beyond. I will miss the firm but unflamboyant way in which he has helped his colleagues with advice in difficult times. Nobody leaves government without regret. I was all the more heartened, therefore, to know that while Tom feels that he cannot himself be a part of the new partnership arrangement, he hopes that the partnership itself will succeed. It takes considerable insight to recognise when, as individuals, we may not be best placed to assist in bringing about an outcome that we know to be in the general best interest. Tom’s recognition that stable government is an object that must be pursued and can only be to the advantage of the people of Wales, is something that I value and from which I draw enormous encouragement.

Nid oes unrhyw ran o hyn yn hawdd. Cefais a derbyniais ymddiswyddiad Tom Middlehurst fel aelod o’m Cabinet gyda thristwch mawr. Fel aelod o Gabinet cyntaf un y Cynulliad, mae lle Tom yn hanes gwleidyddiaeth fodern Cymru yn gadarn. Gwerthfawrogwyd ei waith ym maes addysg ôl-16 gan lawer, yma yn y Siambr ac ymhell y tu hwnt iddi. Byddaf yn colli’r ffordd gadarn ond anymfflamychol y mae wedi helpu ei gyd-Aelodau gyda chyngor yn ystod amseroedd anodd. Nid oes unrhyw un yn gadael llywodraeth heb deimlo’n edifar. Fe’m calonogwyd yn fwy, felly, o wybod, er bod Tom yn teimlo na all fod yn rhan o’r cytundeb partneriaeth newydd ei hun, ei fod yn gobeithio y bydd y bartneriaeth ei hun yn llwyddo. Mae’n cymryd cryn graffter i sylweddoli, fel unigolion, pan nad ydym yn y sefyllfa orau i gynorthwyo i greu canlyniad y gwyddom sydd o’r budd gorau yn gyffredinol. Mae cydnabyddiaeth Tom bod llywodraeth sefydlog yn rhywbeth y dylid mynd ar ei drywydd ac mae dim ond mantais fyddai’n dod yn sgîl hynny i bobl Cymru, yn rhywbeth yr wyf yn ei werthfawrogi ac sydd yn fy nghalonogi’n fawr.

You need to know how the functions of the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training are to be discharged over the next few days. For the remainder of this week I shall assume and exercise all of Tom’s former functions. The arrangements that Tom made for delegating his functions to officials remain in place until further notice. The Post-16 Education and Training Committee ceased to exist the moment that Tom resigned from his post. My assuming these functions means that, de facto, we have an Economic Development and Post-16 Education and Training Subject Committee. This is only a temporary arrangement. I apologise for this, but it is one of the technical consequences of what has happened, and it is only for a few days. I do not anticipate the present Economic Development Committee having to consider these additional matters as well.

Mae angen ichi wybod sut y bwriedir gweithredu swyddogaethau’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 dros yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf. Am weddill yr wythnos hon byddaf yn ymgymryd ac yn gweithredu pob un o gyn-swyddogaethau Tom. Bydd y trefniadau a wnaeth Tom ar gyfer dirprwyo ei swyddogaethau i swyddogion yn parhau yn eu lle am y tro. Peidiodd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 â bodoli y funud yr ymddiswyddod Tom. Mae’r ffaith fy mod i yn ymgymryd â’r swyddogaethau hyn yn golygu, de facto, bod gennym Bwyllgor Pwnc Datblygu Economaidd ac Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16. Dim ond trefniant dros dro yw hwn. Ymddiheuraf am hyn, ond mae’n un o ganlyniadau technegol yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd, a dim ond am ychydig ddyddiau fydd hyn. Nid wyf yn rhagweld y bydd rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ystyried y materion ychwanegol hyn hefyd.

There is no legal obligation on me to appoint a replacement immediately. Sections 53 and 56 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 give me full discretion as to whom I appoint and allocate portfolios, as I see fit. I hope to be able to make a fuller statement on this next week. All this makes clear that making agreement between two political parties is never easy. It involves a willingness to give as well as to take. It also involves preserving the essential principles of each partner while working together on common ground and with common purposes. Why have we been willing to take the risks and make the efforts that are involved in trying to bring all this about? Because the prize for the people of Wales demands that we do so. Stable government, the opportunity to plan, prepare and put into practice the agenda for the better Wales that we all seek are the prospects that this partnership agreement brings us. It is the way forward, and I plan to play my full part in bringing that future to fruition.

Nid oes unrhyw ddyletswydd gyfreithiol arnaf i benodi rhywun i gymryd ei le ar unwaith. Mae adrannau 53 a 56 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn rhoi disgresiwn llawn i mi ynglŷn â phwy i’w benoodi ac i bwy y byddaf yn dyrannu protffolios, fel y gwelaf yn dda. Gobeithiaf y gallaf wneud datganiad llawnach ar hyn yr wythnos nesaf. Mae hyn oll yn ei gwneud yn amlwg nad yw llunio cytundeb rhwng dwy blaid wleidyddol byth yn hawdd. Mae’n golygu parodrwydd i roi yn ogystal â derbyn. Mae hefyd yn golygu gwarchod egwyddorion hanfodol pob parter tra’n cydweithio ar dir cyffredin at ddibenion cyffredin. Pam ein bod wedi bod yn barod i gymryd y risg a gwneud yr ymdrechion sydd yn gysylltiedig â cheisio cyflawni hyn oll? Gan fod y wobr i bobl Cymru yn mynnu ein bod yn gwneud hynny. Llywodraeth sefydlog, y cyfle i gynllunio, paratoi a rhoi yr agenda ar gyfer gwell Cymru yr ydym oll yn anelu ati ar waith yw’r rhagolygon a ddaw yn sgîl y bartneriaeth hon. Mae’n ffordd ymlaen a bwriadaf chwarae rhan lawn wrth ddwyn y maen i’r wal.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 35

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

How confident are you that you can maintain stability and unity within this proposed coalition, given that we have heard today that you cannot appear to sustain unity within your own Cabinet? Does the resignation of Tom Middlehurst and his fierce criticism of your likely partners in the coalition show that you have quite a lot of work to do to persuade your own party of the merits of coalition politics?

Pa mor hyderus yr ydych y gallwch gynnal sefydlogrwydd ac undod o fewn y glymblaid arfaethedig hon, o gofio inni glywed heddiw nad ymddengys eich bod yn gallu cynnal undod o fewn eich Cabinet eich hun? A yw ymddiswyddiad Tom Middlehurst a’i feirniadaeth hallt o’ch partneriaid tebygol yn y glymblaid yn dangos bod gennych gryn dipyn o waith i’w wneud i argyhoeddi eich plaid eich hun o rinweddau gwleidyddiaeth clymblaid?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 35

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

That is an obvious point to make. I have already gone through the necessary ratification procedure on the Labour side. I had the unanimous support of the Executive when it met in emergency session last Thursday night. I was pleased to have that ratification. I must abide by my party’s rules and conference resolutions in the same way that Mike has to abide by his party’s conference resolutions and constitution. Both parties do not have identical rules and did not have identical conference resolutions on this matter—in fact they are directly contradictory—at their last conferences. There is a supportive atmosphere around Wales to giving the partnership proposals a try. It is a big break for people on the Labour side. We have not done this before. The support may be given grudgingly in recognition of the fact that we are a minority administration and that this is the best way to get our proposals through. We have decided that this is the best way forward.

Mae hwnnw’n bwynt amlwg i’w wneud. Yr wyf eisoes wedi mynd drwy’r broses gymeradwyo angenrheidiol ar ochr Llafur. Cefais gymorth unfrydol y Weithrediaeth pan gyfarfu mewn sesiwn frys nos Iau diwethaf. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gael y gymeradwyaeth honno. Mae’n rhaid imi lynu wrth reolau fy mhlaid a phenderfyniadau’r gynhadledd yn yr un ffordd ag y mae’n rhaid i Mike lynu wrth benderfyniadau cynhadledd a chyfansoddiad ei blaid ef. Nid oes gan y ddwy blaid reolau union yr un fath ac ni chawsant benderfyniadau cynhadledd union yr un fath ar y mater hwn yn eu cynadleddau diwethaf—yn wir maent yn hollol groes i’w gilydd. Mae naws gefnogol yng Nghymru tuag at roi cynnig ar y bartneriaeth arfaethedig. Mae’n gam mawr i bobl Llafur. Nid ydym wedi gwneud hyn o’r blaen. Efallai mai yn anfoddog y rhoddir y gefnogaeth hon i gydnabod y ffaith mai gweinyddiaeth leiafrifol ydym ac mai dyma’r ffordd orau i lwyddo gyda’n cynigion. Penderfynasom mai hon yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 36

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 36

Mae dau gwestiwn pwysig am gynnwys y cytundeb hwn. Yn gyntaf, onid yw’n glir o ddarllen y drafft cyntaf o’r cytundeb a welsom ni fod dealltwriaeth fod angen edrych ar fformwla Barnett? Dywedwch yn adran 10, nad yw’n ymddangos yn y drafft terfynol, fod angen edrych ar wella’r cyllid sydd yn dod i Gymru ar draws y sbectrwm. Pam y gadawyd hynny allan o’r cytundeb terfynol? A fyddwch chi’n edrych ar ddiwygio fformwla Barnett?

There are two important questions about the contents of this agreement. First, is it not clear from reading the first draft of the agreement that we saw that there is an understanding that there is a need to look at the Barnett formula? You state in section 10, which does not appear in the final draft, that there is a need to look at improving the funding which comes to Wales across the spectrum. Why was that omitted from the final agreement? Will you look at revising the Barnett formula?

Yn ail, a yw’r glymblaid wedi ymdynghedu i edrych ar ddiffyg pwerau’r Cynulliad? A oes cytundeb rhyngoch chi a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i edrych o ddifrif ar yr angen i gael pwerau deddfwriaethol i’r Cynulliad, neu a ydyw sefydlu’r comisiwn annibynnol yn ddim byd ond ymgais i osgoi’r pwnc?

Second, has the coalition vowed to look at the Assembly’s lack of powers? Is there an agreement between you and the Liberal Democrats to look seriously at the need to secure legislative powers for the Assembly, or is the establishment of the independent commission nothing but an attempt to avoid the issue?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 36

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 36

Dau gwestiwn diddorol. Nid oes unrhyw beth arwyddocaol yn yr ail ddrafft nad yw’n cynnwys yr un elfennau a oedd yn y drafft cyntaf, sef unrhyw sôn am adolygu fformwla Barnett. Ceisiwn bob amser gael yr uchafswm adnoddau i Gymru o’r Trysorlys. Mae’n rhaid i chi gyfaddef Ieuan, ar ran Plaid Cymru, ein bod wedi gwneud yn arbennig o dda eleni wrth fynd y tu hwnt ac uwchben fformwla Barnett i gael y £421 miliwn yn ychwanegol. Dyna’r math o fargen y gallwn ei tharo yn y blynyddoedd sydd i ddod. Nid yw i fyny i ni adolygu fformwla Barnett. Byddai’n rhaid inni ystyried barn yr Alban a’r Llywodraeth ganolog. Nid yw hynny’n golygu na fyddwn yn ymdrechu ar bob cyfle i gael rhagor o adnoddau i’w gwario yng Nghymru er lles pobl Cymru.

Two interesting questions. There is nothing significant in the second draft that does not include the same elements that were in the first draft, namely any mention of reviewing the Barnett formula. We always seek to get the maximum resources for Wales from the Treasury. You must admit Ieuan, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, that we have done particularly well this year in going above and beyond the Barnett formula to get the extra £421 million. That is the kind of bargain that we could strike in coming years. It is not up to us to revise the Barnett formula. We would have to consider the views of Scotland and the central Government. It does not mean that we will not endeavour at every opportunity to gain more resources to spend in Wales for the benefit of the people of Wales.

O ran yr hyn a ddisgrifir gan Ieuan fel diffyg pwerau, dywedasom yn glir ein bod yn awyddus i sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol i adolygu pwerau’r Cynulliad. Daw’r comisiwn yn ôl at y Cynulliad ychydig wedi’r etholiad nesaf. Beth arall yr hoffech ei wybod am y comisiwn annibynnol? Ni ddylai Ieuan na Phlaid Cymru nac unrhyw blaid arall ddrwgdybio ar unwaith unrhyw beth yn y bartneriaeth oherwydd yr hoffent ddistrywio’r adolygiad neu’r bartneriaeth cyn iddynt ddechrau. Mae’n rhaid ichi dderbyn yr union eiriau a’r bwriad y tu ôl iddynt. Nid oes agenda gudd. Dywedasom y byddwn yn sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol i adolygu pwerau’r Cynulliad. Dyna a wnawn.

With regard to what Ieuan describes as the lack of powers, we have clearly said that we are keen to establish an independent commission to review the Assembly’s powers. The commission will report back to the Assembly shortly after the next election. What else would you like to know about the independent commission? Neither Ieuan nor Plaid Cymru nor any other party should immediately suspect anything in this partnership because they would like to destroy the review or the partnership before they begin. You must accept the exact wording and the intention behind them. There is no hidden agenda. We said that we will establish an independent commission to review the Assembly’s powers. That is what we will do.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 37

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I would like, as the First Secretary did in his statement, to wish Tom Middlehurst well in his new role in the National Assembly. He has always conducted his duties with good humour and, as far as our party is concerned, he has been open in his dealings with other parties. We should place that on record. However, does the First Secretary agree that the resignation and its timing are significant?

Hoffwn, fel y gwnaeth y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ei ddatganiad, ddymuno’n dda i Tom Middlehurst yn ei rôl newydd yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae bob amser wedi ymgymryd â’i ddyletswyddau gyda hiwmor da ac, o ran ein plaid ni, bu’n agored yn ei drafodaethau gyda phleidiau eraill. Dylem gofnodi hynny. Fodd bynnag, oni chytuna’r Prif Ysgrifennydd fod yr ymddiswyddiad a’i amseriad yn arwyddocaol?

By resigning in advance of any ratification of this deal, the former Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training has acted on a matter of principle, which is widely shared within your party, the Liberal Democratic Party—a party that used to be separate——and within Wales. Will he comment on that? There is another serious concern about the resignation. North Wales is no longer represented at the Cabinet table. The Cabinet table is now made up of representatives of the former Gwent and Glamorgan areas. That must give rise to concern for all those who warned that this Assembly would become Cardiff and south-east Wales dominated. Will he consider that and comment on the importance of having a Cabinet that represents all parts of Wales?

Drwy ymddiswyddo cyn i’r fargen hon gael ei chadarnhau, mae’r cyn Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 wedi gweithredu ar fater o egwyddor, a rennir yn eang o fewn eich plaid, Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—plaid a arferai fod yn blaid ar wahân—ac o fewn Cymru. A wnaiff sylw ar hynny? Mae pryder difrifol arall ynghylch yr ymddiswyddiad. Ni chynrychiolir gogledd Cymru bellach wrth fwrdd y Cabinet. Bellach mae bwrdd y Cabinet ond yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o hen ardaloedd Gwent a Morgannwg. Mae’n rhaid bod hynny’n codi pryderon i bawb a rybuddiodd y byddai’r Cynulliad hwn yn cael ei reoli gan Gaerdydd a de-ddwyrain Cymru. A wnaiff ystyried hynny a sylwi ar bwysigrwydd cael Cabinet sydd yn cynrychioli pob rhan o Gymru?

I move on to the meat of the pact, the coalition agreement. I have some questions that I hope he can answer. Given his commitment to open government, some things are very much in the dark. Which Cabinet posts will be given to the Liberal Democrats? Which Liberal Democrats will fill those posts? The Assembly and the people of Wales need to know that. What role is envisaged for the Deputy First Secretary presumptive? That question is on all our lips. We want to know in what form he will emerge from his chrysalis and if it will be incorporated into the Standing Orders. For example, we know, First Secretary, that you will be in Saudi Arabia next Tuesday. Will the Liberal Democratic Party leader answer the First Secretary’s questions on that day? That is a scary thought, but we need to know. Will Liberal Democrat Assembly Members be appointed as Deputy Secretaries? We have not had a clear statement on that matter. Will he also confirm that if the Liberal Democrats surrender their opposition role, they will forfeit their right to a minority party debate, a separate seat in the Business Committee—goodbye Jenny—and a leader’s allowance that is paid only to opposition parties? I hear the Deputy First Secretary presumptive say that that is not the case. Perhaps the First Secretary would clarify on behalf of the coalition? Will he also confirm that the review of Assembly processes will contain only representatives of the Government of Wales and the two opposition parties? Importantly, will he confirm that there is no extra money from Westminster as a result of this coalition agreement and that, therefore, all the marvellous spins that have been put on this matter by the Liberal Democratic leader add to nothing? Which parts of the coalition agreement were not previously Labour Party policy? He has told us that there have been no concessions. Meanwhile, the Liberal Democratic leader, on his whistle-stop tour, is claiming 104 new commitments to his party’s policies on behalf of the Labour Party—

Symudaf ymlaen at sylwedd y cytundeb, y cytundeb clymblaid. Mae gennyf rai cwestiynau y gobeithiaf y gall eu hateb. O gofio ei ymrwymiad i lywodraeth agored, mae rhai pethau yn sicr yn y tywyllwch. Pa swyddi yn y Cabinet a gaiff eu rhoi i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol? Pa Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol fydd yn llenwi’r swyddi hynny? Dylai’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru gael gwybod hynny. Pa rôl a ragwelir i’r Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd tybiadol? Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw ar wefusau pob un ohonom. Yr ydym am wybod ar ba ffurf y bydd yn ymddangos o’i grysalis ac a fydd yn cael ei ymgorffori yn y Rheolau Sefydlog. Er enghraifft, gwyddom, Brif Ysgrifennydd, y byddwch yn Saudi Arabia ddydd Mawrth nesaf. A fydd arweinydd Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ateb cwestiynau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y diwrnod hwnnw? Mae hynny’n frawychus, ond mae angen inni wybod. A fydd Aelodau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad yn cael eu penodi fel Dirprwy Ysgrifenyddion? Nid ydym wedi cael datganiad clir ar y mater hwnnw. A wnaiff hefyd gadarnhau a fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ildio eu rôl fel gwrthblaid, a fyddant yn ildio eu hawl i ddadl plaid leiafrifol, sedd ar wahân ar y Pwyllgor Busnes—hwyl fawr Jenny—a lwfans arweinydd sydd ddim ond yn cael ei dalu i arweinwyr y gwrthbleidiau? Clywaf y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd tybiadol yn dweud nad felly y mae. Efallai y gallai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd egluro ar ran y glymblaid? A wnaiff hefyd gadarnhau mai dim ond cynrychiolwyr Llywodraeth Cymru a’r ddwy wrthblaid y bydd yr adolygiad o brosesau’r Cynulliad yn ei gynnwys? Yn bwysicach, a wnaiff gadarnhau nad oes unrhyw arian ychwanegol o San Steffan o ganlyniad i’r cytundeb clymblaid hwn ac, felly, fod pob gogwydd gwych a roddwyd ar y mater hwn gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn golygu dim? Pa rannau o’r cytundeb clymblaid nad oeddent yn rhan o bolisi’r Blaid Lafur cyn hynny? Dywedodd wrthym na fu unrhyw gonsesiynau. Yn y cyfamser, mae Arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ar ei wibdaith, yn honni 104 o ymrywmiadau newydd i bolisïau ei blaid ar ran y Blaid Lafur—

Mick Bates t. 39

Mick Bates p. 39

114.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I beg your pardon, 114, but both figures cannot be right. Either you are right or they are right. Does he regret that normal Assembly business and the good governance of Wales is being held up while the Deputy First Secretary presumptive is on this whistle-stop tour trying to sell it to his party activists? There are grave concerns about it. Why could this not have been accomplished during constituency weeks? Has the First Secretary studied the Lib-Lab pact in Scotland and is he aware that it failed to deliver on many of the promises on which the Liberal Democrats insisted? The promises of no tolls on the Skye bridge, 500 more doctors, 1,000 more nurses and a reduction in maximum waiting times were not delivered. In fact, waiting lists rose by 15 per cent.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, 114, ond ni all y ddau ffigur fod yn gywir. Naill ai yr ydych chi’n gywir neu maent hwy yn gywir. A yw’n ddrwg ganddo fod oedi gyda busnes arferol y Cynulliad a llywodraeth dda Cymru tra bydd y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd tybiadol ar wibdaith yn ceisio ei werthu i ymgyrchwyr ei blaid? Mae pryderon mawr ynglŷn â hyn. Pam na allai hyn fod wedi cael ei gyflawni yn ystod yr wythnosau etholaeth? A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi astudio’r cytundeb rhwng Llafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn yr Alban ac a yw’n ymwybodol ei fod wedi methu â chyflawni llawer o’r addewidion a fynnwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol? Ni chyflawnwyd yr addewidion o ddim tollau ar bont Ynys Hir, 500 yn fwy o feddygon, 1,000 yn fwy o nyrsys a gostyngiad yn uchafswm yr amseroedd aros. Mewn gwirionedd, cynyddodd y rhestrau aros 15 y cant.

Furthermore, is he aware that the two Liberal Democrat representatives in the Scottish Cabinet [Interruption.]

Yn ogystal, a yw’n ymwybodol bod dau gynrychiolydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng Nghabinet yr Alban [Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Order. The leader of the Conservative Party is asking questions.

Trefn. Mae arweinydd y Blaid Geidwadol yn gofyn cwestiynau.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I am grateful for that. Is the First Secretary aware—

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ymwybodol—

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 39

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Can you go back to the first question? I have forgotten it.

A allwch fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn cyntaf? Yr wyf wedi ei anghofio.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

The first question was what happened to your commitment to open government.

Y cwestiwn cyntaf oedd beth a ddigwyddodd i’ch ymrwymiad i lywodraeth agored.

Is he aware that the senior Liberal Democrat representative in Scotland, Jim Wallace, the Deputy First Minister—I was going to say the Scottish Parliament’s Mike German—is the only one to have had his departmental budget cut, and the other, Ross Finnie, as Minister for Rural Affairs, has presided over the worst crisis in rural Scotland? Is the First Secretary really committed to this deal? Many of those of us who saw your press conference felt that while the Liberal Democrat leader looked delighted, you looked as if you were sitting on a thistle. Were you having second thoughts? It could be that you have seen that it is not a good thing after all. I tried to hunt round for a silver lining for you and the only one that I could find was that while you are No. 1 and he is No. 2, there will be no assassination attempts.

A yw’n ymwybodol mai cynrychiolydd hŷn y Democratiaid Rhyddrydol yn yr Alban, Jim Wallace, y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd—yr oeddwn ar fin dweud Mike German Senedd yr Alban—yw’r unig un i gael gostyngiad yng nghyllideb ei adran, bod y llall, Ross Finnie, fel Gweinidog Materion Gwledig, wedi llywyddu dros yr argyfwng gwaethaf yng nghefn gwlad yr Alban? A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn wirioneddol ymrwymedig i’r cytundeb hwn? Yr oedd llawer ohonom a welodd eich cynhadledd i’r wasg yn teimlo er bod arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn edrych fel petai wrth ei fodd, eich bod chi’n edrych fel petaech yn eistedd ar ysgallen. A oeddech yn ailfeddwl? Efallai eich bod wedi gweld nad yw’n beth da wedi’r cyfan. Ceisiais chwilio am haul ar fryn i chi a’r unig lygedyn o obaith y gallwn ei ganfod oedd tra byddwch chi yn Rhif 1 ac yntau yn Rhif 2, ni fydd unrhyw ymdrechion bradlofruddio.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 40

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I will try to remember as many as I can of the points made in between the comments about sitting on thistles and silver linings. My commitment to open government is undiminished and it is one on which the freedom-of-information-loving Liberal Democrats and myself have always strongly agreed. There is no problem there. You mentioned that Tom was the only Cabinet member representing north Wales. Not having a north Wales representative is not my choice, but the consequence of Tom’s resignation.

Ceisiaf gofio cymaint ag y gallaf o’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd rhwng y sylwadau am eistedd ar ysgallen a haul ar fryn. Mae fy ymrwymiad i lywodraeth agored yn ddiysgog ac mae’n un y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, sydd yn gymaint o blaid rhyddid gwybodaeth, a minnau wastad wedi cytuno’n gryf arno. Nid oes unrhyw broblem yn hynny o beth. Soniasoch mai Tom oedd yr unig aelod o’r Cabinet a oedd yn cynrychioli gogledd Cymru. Nid fy newis i yw peidio â chael cynrychiolydd dros ogledd Cymru, ond canlyniad ymddiswyddiad Tom.

You asked which jobs will go to which Cabinet Secretary. I have answered that question. I will have to return to that next week. You also raised the issue of what the practical impact will be for minority debates. I believe that minority party debates would be ruled out for the Liberal Democrat Party. I am not as sure about membership of the Business Committee. You also asked whether there will be any extra money in this. There is no extra money: this is the spending of the extra money. In other words, having had the comprehensive spending review settlement that we had, we now have a three-year and a much better budget. Therefore, the issue that has arisen in this budget round is more important than the issues that have been raised in previous budget rounds, because it is for three years. If you have three years’ worth of budget, then you can develop not just a one-year defensive budget, focusing on whether you increase or cut certain spending, but a whole new range of policies. That is what we are talking about.

Gofynasoch pa swyddi a gaiff eu rhoi i ba Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Atebais y cwestiwn hwnnw. Bydd yn rhaid i mi ddychwelyd at hynny yr wythnos nesaf. Codasoch hefyd y mater o’r effaith ymarferol ar ddadleuon lleiafrifol. Credaf y byddai dadleuon pleidiau lleiafrifol yn cael eu diystyru ar gyfer Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Nid wyf yn siŵr ynglŷn ag aelodaeth y Pwyllgor Busnes. Gofynasoch hefyd a fydd unrhyw arian ychwanegol yn sgîl hyn. Nid oes unrhyw arian ychwanegol: gwario arian ychwanegol yw hyn. Mewn geiriau eraill, yn dilyn setliad yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant a gawsom, mae gennym bellach gyllideb tair blynedd sydd yn un llawer gwell. Felly, mae’r mater a godwyd yn y cylch cyllideb hwn yn bwysicach na’r materion a godwyd mewn cylchoedd cyllideb blaenorol, gan ei bod am dair blynedd. Os oes gennych werth tair blynedd o gyllideb, yna gallwch ddatblygu nid yn unig gyllideb amddiffynnol blwyddyn, yn canolbwyntio ar a ydych yn cynyddu neu’n cwtogi ar wariant penodol, ond ystod newydd o bolisïau. Dyna beth yr ydym yn sôn amdano.

As regards the arrangements for next week, I am not—for reasons entirely unconnected with the partnership arrangement—able to go to Saudi Arabia and have cancelled that overseas mission. I will explain why next week, but the reason has nothing to do with the partnership arrangement. Trying to calculate how many Liberal Democrat and how many Labour policies there are in the partnership arrangement is a fruitless pursuit. When you come to a partnership arrangement, you exchange ideas constantly. Therefore you cannot allocate policies to parties and say that that one is a Liberal policy and that one a Labour. You have discussed the issues and whether you can both agree on the policies as a package.

O ran y trefniadau ar gyfer yr wythnos nesaf, am resymau nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig mewn unrhyw ffordd â’r cytundeb partneriaeth, ni allaf fynd i Saudi Arabia ac yr wyf wedi canslo’r genhadaeth dramor honno. Egluraf pam yr wythnos nesaf, ond nid oes a wnelo’r rheswm unrhyw beth â’r trefniant partneriaeth. Mae ceisio cyfrifo faint o bolisïau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a faint o bolisïau Llafur sydd yn y trefniant partneriaeth yn ymarfer di-fudd. Pan ddewch at drefniant partneriaeth, yr ydych yn cyfnewid syniadau’n barhaus. Felly ni allwch ddyrannu polisïau i bleidiau a dweud bod hwn yn bolisi’r Rhdydfrydwyr a’r llall yn bolisi Llafur. Yr ydych wedi trafod y materion a pha un ai a all y ddau ohonoch gytuno ar y polisïau fel pecyn.

As regards normal Assembly business, I am sorry that I have to try your patience, Nick, and that although you want to know who will have what job now, you will not know until next week. However, I hope that you will learn that that sometimes happens in politics and that next week will come soon enough. On Scotland, we are in close contact with our Scottish colleagues because theirs is the easiest model to refer to, and is more relevant to us than that of Northern Ireland or the Irish Republic, where coalition politics have been the norm. Our sister party, the Irish Labour Party, has been a junior member of many coalitions in the Irish Republic, with Dick Spring, from the junior party, having been the Deputy Prime Minister of the Irish Republic. These arrangements are quite common, although Nick seems to be greatly shocked by them.

O ran busnes arferol y Cynulliad, mae’n ddrwg gennyf am brofi eich amynedd, Nick, ac er eich bod am wybod pwy fydd yn cael pa swydd yn awr, ni chewch wybod tan yr wythnos nesaf. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y byddwch yn dysgu bod hynny weithiau’n digwydd mewn gwleidyddiaeth ac y daw yr wythnos nesaf yn ddigon buan. O ran yr Alban, mae gennym gysylltiad agos gyda’n cydweithwyr yn yr Alban gan mai eu model hwy yw’r hawsaf i gyfeirio ato, a’i fod yn fwy perthnasol i ni nag un Gogledd Iwerddon neu Weriniaeth Iwerddon, lle bu gwleidyddiaeth clymblaid yn norm. Mae ein chwaer blaid, Plaid Lafur Iwerddon, wedi bod yn aelod iau o sawl clymblaid yng Ngweriniaeth Iwerddon, gyda Dick Spring, o’r blaid iau, yn Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog Gweriniaeth Iwerddon. Mae’r trefniadau hyn yn eithaf cyffredin er eu bod yn peri syndod mawr i Nick.

Nick tried to suggest that Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie have had a hard time. Broadly, I think that most people looking at Scotland would say that the arrangement has brought many benefits and has made the Scottish Parliament work effectively. Eleven bills have been passed in its first full session. That is not a bad outcome for a parliament re-established after 297 years. I think that it has done pretty well and most people in Scotland think it has done pretty well. You are obviously trying to drive in wedges before we even have a partnership in place: that is your job, Nick, and I admire you for your efforts, however unavailing, to do that.

Ceisiodd Nick awgrymu bod Jim Wallace a Ross Finnie wedi cael amser caled. Yn gyffredinol, credaf y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o bobl, o edrych ar yr Alban, yn dweud bod y trefniadau wedi dod â llawer o fuddiannau yn eu sgîl ac wedi gwneud i Senedd yr Alban weithio’n effeithiol. Pasiwyd un mesur ar ddeg yn ei sesiwn lawn gyntaf. Nid yw hynny’n ganlyniad drwg i senedd a ailsefydlwyd ar ôl 297 o flynyddoedd. Credaf iddi wneud yn eithaf da ac mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn yr Alban o’r farn iddi wneud yn eithaf da. Yr ydych yn amlwg yn ceisio creu rhwygiadau cyn inni sefydlu’r bartneriaeth hyd yn oed: dyna eich gwaith chi, Nick, ac fe’ch edmygaf am eich ymdrechion, pa mor ofer y bônt.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 42

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Now that the First Secretary has declared formally that it is his policy to appease German expansionism, does he not recognise that he is making the same strategic mistake as the Prime Minister made when he supported Alun Michael’s rather than the current First Secretary’s attempts to become leader of the Labour Party, against the wishes of the people of Wales? Can he not see that? Can he not see that his days as First Secretary are numbered as long as the leader of the Liberal Democrats supports him? By pursuing this policy, he will—in a very short time—be throwing this Assembly into chaos again while the rest of us get rid of both of you.

Gan fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi datgan yn ffurfiol ei fod yn bolisi ganddo i ddyhuddo ymlediad German, onid yw’n cydnabod ei fod yn gwneud yr un camgymeriad strategol ag y gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog pan gefnogodd ymdrechion Alun Michael yn hytrach nag ymdrechion y Prif Ysgrifennydd cyfredol i ddod yn arweinydd y Blaid Lafur, yn groes i ddymuniad pobl Cymru? Oni all weld hynny? Oni all weld bod ei ddyddiau fel Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi’u rhifo tra bod arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei gefnogi? Drwy fynd ar drywydd y polisi hwn, bydd—o fewn cyfnod byr o amser—yn achosi anhrefn yn y Cynulliad hwn unwaith eto tra bod y gweddill ohonom yn cael gwared ar y ddau ohonoch.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 42

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I do not mind my days being numbered so long as the number is around 10,000 or something like that. That would be no problem. When Rod made his remarks about the threat of a German takeover, I believe that he was reading from an old speech that he used when he was a europhobe Tory Minister rather than thinking about the Assembly and its affairs. It is Plaid Cymru’s, the Tory Party’s and Rod Richards’s job to dig and nit-pick as much as they can this week. If this goes well on the weekend, we will have a majority government that will be able to run this Assembly properly, probably for the first time in 18 months.

Nid oes ots gennyf fod fy nyddiau’n prinhau cyn belled â bod hynny tua 10,000 neu rywbeth tebyg i hynny. Ni fyddai hynny’n broblem. Pan wnaeth Rod ei sylwadau am y bygythiad o gyrch gan German, credaf ei fod yn darllen hen araith a ddefnyddiodd pan oedd yn Weinidog Torïaidd ewroffobaidd yn hytrach na meddwl am y Cynulliad a’i faterion. Gwaith Plaid Cymru, y Blaid Dorïaidd a Rod Richards yw pigo beiau gymaint ag y gallant yr wythnos hon. Os aiff pethau’n dda ar y penwythnos, bydd gennym lywodraeth fwyafrifol a all redeg y Cynulliad hwn yn gywir, fwy na thebyg am y tro cyntaf mewn 18 mis.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 42

Beth yw ymhlygiadau’r penderfyniad hwn i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 ac, yn benodol, beth fydd ei effaith ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor ar y celfyddydau a diwylliant? Cytunodd y Pwyllgor ddydd Gwener diwethaf ar destun terfynol yr adroddiad hwnnw yn dilyn chwe mis o waith caled ac ymgynghori helaeth. Mae mawr ddisgwyl ymysg y gymuned gelfyddydol yng Nghymru am yr adroddiad. Byddai’n drueni dychrynllyd pe bai’r holl broses o gyhoeddi’r adroddiad yn cael ei fwrw i’r pair a’i ohirio’n ddibendraw o achos yr aildrefnu sydd yn digwydd.

What are the implications of this decision for the Post-16 Education and Training Committee, and specifically, how will it affect the Committee’s report on arts and culture? The Committee agreed last Friday on the final text of that report following six months of hard work and extensive consultation. There is great expectation in the arts community in Wales for that report. It would be a terrible pity if the whole process of publishing that report was thrown into the melting pot and deferred indefinitely because of this reorganisation.

A all y Prif Ysgrifennydd ganfod ffordd o alluogi’r Pwyllgor priodol i dderbyn yr adroddiad? Dyna’r cyfan sydd ei angen yn awr. Mae’r testun a’r cynnwys wedi’u cytuno. Y cyfan sydd ei angen yw i’r Pwyllgor priodol dderbyn yr adroddiad fel ei fod yn dod i’r Cynulliad llawn ar gyfer trafodaeth. Os bydd y Cynulliad yn cydsynio, gall yr holl benderfyniadau sydd yn llifo o’r adroddiad ddigwydd wedyn mewn da bryd.

Can the First Secretary find a way of enabling the appropriate Committee to receive the report? That is all that is required now. The text and content have been agreed. All that is needed is for the appropriate Committee to receive the report so that it comes to the full Assembly for discussion. If the Assembly agrees, all the decisions that arise from that report can then happen in good time.

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 43

Pe bai amser wedi caniatáu yn ystod yr awr ginio, byddwn wedi rhoi rhybudd ichi, Cynog, ynglŷn â’r rhwymedigaeth gyfreithiol sydd yn codi o ymddiswyddiad Tom, sydd yn golygu nad oes Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 yn bodoli am gyfnod na fydd yn fwy nag wythnos. Nid mater o aildrefnu yw hyn. Rhwymedigaeth gyfansoddiadol neu gyfreithiol dros dro yn codi o ymddiswyddiad Tom ydyw. Yr wyf yn hollol ffyddiog y medrwn oresgyn y problemau. Nid wyf finnau am achosi unrhyw ohiriad neu ansicrwydd ynglŷn â phenderfyniadau a gwaith caled y Pwyllgor hwnnw. Bydd clercod y Pwyllgorau a’n swyddogion yn Swyddfa’r Cabinet yn ymchwilio gyda ni i weld a oes modd goresgyn y broblem hon. Problem dros dro am lai nag wythnos ydyw. Addewaf hynny ichi, Cynog, ac i’r pleidiau gwahanol a gynrychiolir yn y Cynulliad.

Had there been more time during the lunch hour, I would have given you notice, Cynog, of the legal obligation arising from Tom’s resignation which means that, for a period of no more than a week, there will not be a Post-16 Education and Training Committee. This is not a matter of reorganisation. It is a temporary constitutional or legal obligation arising from Tom’s resignation. I am confident that we will be able to overcome these problems. I do not wish to cause any delay or uncertainty in relation to the decisions and the hard work of that Committee. The Committee clerks and our officials in the Cabinet Office will investigate with us whether there is a way around this problem. It is a temporary problem for less than a week. I give you that promise, Cynog, and to the different parties represented in the Assembly.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 43

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I ask a question that builds upon one of Nick Bourne’s earlier questions. It concerns the position of the Liberal Democrat Party group in the Assembly if this coalition is agreed. That is a matter of interest to all 60 Members and I am certain that it is of great interest to the Liberal Democrat Party members in the country who will vote on this issue at the weekend. You said that there may not be a Liberal Democrat minority debate in the future. You also said that you are unsure about the position on the Business Committee. I would like to know whether you have discussed with the Presiding Officer the arrangements for speaking in debates and whether, in future, the Liberal Democrats will lose their position. My final question is what will happen to the money to which the Liberal Democrats are entitled as an independent party? People in the countryside and in the constituency that I represent in mid and west Wales are shocked and outraged by what is happening. They should know all the details of this issue before it is put to them next week.

Gofynnaf gwestiwn sydd yn adeiladu ar gwestiynau cynharach Nick Bourne. Mae’n ymwneud â sefyllfa grŵp Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad os cytunir ar y glymblaid hon. Mae hwn yn fater o ddiddordeb i bob un o’r 60 o Aeldoau ac yr wyf yn sicr ei fod o ddiddordeb mawr i aelodau Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn gwlad a fydd yn pleidleisio ar y mater hwn dros y penwythnos. Dywedasoch na fyddai dadl leiafrifol gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o bosibl yn y dyfodol. Dywedasoch hefyd eich bod yn ansicr ynghylch y sefyllfa gyda’r Pwyllgor Busnes. Hoffwn wybod a ydych wedi trafod gyda’r Llywydd y trefniadau ar gyfer siarad mewn dadleuon ac a fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn y dyfodol, yn colli eu safle. Fy nghwestiwn olaf yw beth fydd yn digwydd i’r arian y mae gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol hawl iddo fel plaid annibynnol? Mae’r bobl yng nghefn gwlad Cymru wedi cael sioc ac yn teimlo dicter tuag at yr hyn sydd yn digwydd. Dylent gael gwybod yr holl fanylion ynglŷn â’r mater hwn cyn iddo gael ei gyflwyno iddynt yr wythnos nesaf.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 44

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Those remarks, if you were a humble Montgomeryshire farmer with no party origins, would carry considerable weight, Glyn. However, the Conservatives’ criticism of the Liberal Democrats and Labour forming a partnership agreement is not a neutral and independent comment on this issue. You may think that you speak for the people of Montgomeryshire—it was Mick Bates who was elected as local AM for that area. I do not know what your view is on this, whether you think that you represent an independent view, or whether you accept that you are trying to do as much damage as possible before Saturday or Sunday cometh. Any sensible person would see that you are doing as much damage as possible now in the hope that it will upset what happens in the Liberal Democrats’ conference. That is fair enough—that is your job, and you have done your job this afternoon.

Petaech yn ffermwr gwerinol o Sir Drefaldwyn heb unrhyw gysylltiadau pleidiol, byddai’r sylwadau hynny’n cario cryn bwysau, Glyn. Fodd bynnag, nid yw beirniadaeth y Ceidwadwyr ar y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Llafur yn ffurfio cytundeb partneriaeth yn sylw niwtral ac annibynnol ar y mater hwn. Efallai y credwch eich bod yn siarad ar ran pobl Sir Drefaldwyn—Mick Bates a etholwyd fel AC lleol dros yr ardal honno. Ni wn beth yw eich barn am hyn, pa un a gredwch eich bod yn cynrychioli barn annibynnol, neu a ydych yn derbyn eich bod yn ceisio gwneud cymaint o niwed â phosibl cyn dydd Sadwrn neu ddydd Sul nesaf. Byddai unrhyw berson synhwyrol yn gweld eich bod yn gwneud cymaint o niwed â phosibl yn awr yn y gobaith y bydd yn amharu ar yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd yng nghynhadledd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae hynny’n ddigon teg—dyna yw eich gwaith, ac yr ydych wedi gwneud eich gwaith y prynhawn yma.

I am not sure whether I can answer the technical questions, because the issues relating to speaking in debate are in Standing Orders. I have not considered that issue; it is a matter for the Office of the Presiding Officer to discuss with the four parties. We will be two separate groups but the Liberal Democrats will be represented in the Executive. It is whatever is stated in Standing Orders.

Nid wyf yn siŵr a allaf ateb y cwestiynau technegol, gan fod y materion sydd yn ymwneud â siarad mewn dadl yn y Rheolau Sefydlog. Nid wyf wedi ystyried y mater hwnnw; mae’n fater i Swyddfa’r Llywydd ei drafod gyda’r pedair plaid. Byddwn yn ddau grŵp ar wahân ond caiff y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol eu cynrychioli yn y Weithrediaeth. Beth bynnag a nodir yn y Rheolau Sefydlog.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 45

Yn y fforwm cyllid a gyfarfu fore ddoe yn yr adeilad hwn, datganodd Peter Law fod y polisïau sydd yn y ddogfen hon a gadarnhawyd gan bwyllgor gwaith y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru bellach yn cynrychioli polisi’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru. A allwch chi gadarnhau hynny, ac a ydyw polisi’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru, felly, yn cynnwys cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol ar gyfer llywodraeth leol?

In the finance forum that met yesterday morning in this building, Peter Law affirmed that the policies in this document that were confirmed by the Labour Party executive in Wales now represent the policies of the Labour Party in Wales. Can you confirm this, and does the policy of the Labour Party in Wales, therefore, include proportional representation for local government?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 45

Mae rhai polisïau yn y ddogfen hon wedi eu cyllido, ac maent yn y rhaglen, a disgrifir polisïau eraill, megis ffurfio comisiwn i ystyried pwnc. Pan gytunwch i ffurfio comisiwn annibynnol i ystyried pwnc megis cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol neu bwerau’r Cynulliad, ni allwch ragweld yn union beth fydd casgliad y corff adolygu hwnnw. Dyna’r hyn y gallaf ei ddweud ynglŷn â phwyso ar y Llywodraeth i sefydlu comisiwn i ystyried sut y byddwn yn rhedeg system etholiadol llywodraeth leol. Nid mater i’r Cynulliad yw hwn, ac efallai mai’r Llywodraeth ganolog a fydd yn penderfynu ar ein rhan ni. Mae Senedd yr Alban yn penderfynu ar system etholiadol llywodraeth leol yn yr Alban. Yr ydym yn fodlon ystyried beth y dylem fod yn ei gymeradwyo i’r Llywodraeth ganolog fel y system etholiadol orau i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

Some policies in this document have been funded, and they are in the programme, and other policies are described, such as forming a commission to consider a subject. When you agree to form an independent commission to consider a subject such as proportional representation or the Assembly’s powers, you cannot foresee exactly what will be the conclusion of that review body. That is what I can say about pressing the Government to establish a commission to consider how we will run the electoral system for local government. This is not a matter for the Assembly, and it may be central Government that will decide on our behalf. The Scottish Parliament decides on the electoral system for local government in Scotland. We are willing to consider what we should be recommending to central Government as the best electoral system for local government in Wales.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 45

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

You have talked about the need for stable government and the ability to plan and take decisions. You have given those as reasons for power sharing in cabinets. Did you know that your own party—the Labour party—has three councillors under suspension facing expulsion for daring to take seats in a power shared cabinet on Denbighshire County Council? Will you clarify the Labour Party’s position regarding power sharing at all levels of government in Wales?

Yr ydych wedi sôn am yr angen am lywodraeth sefydlog a’r gallu i gynllunio a gwneud penderfyniadau. Rhoesoch y rheini fel rhesymau dros rannu pŵer yn y cabinet. A wyddoch fod gan eich plaid chi eich hun—y blaid Lafur—dri chynghorydd wedi’u hatal sydd yn wynebu cael eu gwahardd am feiddio â derbyn seddau mewn cabinet sydd yn rhannu pŵer ar Gyngor Sir Ddinbych? A wnewch egluro sefyllfa’r Blaid Lafur ynghylch rhannu pŵer ar bob lefel o lywodraeth yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 45

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I am not aware of the Denbighshire situation, although I have heard the occasional soupçons of problems in the Denbighshire area. I understood that the Denbighshire administration was anxious to bring Labour in, and that the Labour party did not want to go in. That is entirely a matter for the Denbighshire local Labour party. What we are talking about here is an arrangement inside the Assembly to make the Assembly work better. We are not telling Labour parties elsewhere, where Labour may be in a minority or there may be reasons relating to the local situation, such as bad blood between Labour and other parties, what they ought to or must do because of any arrangement that we make here. It is a practical and pragmatic arrangement for the better functioning of this Assembly to deliver services better for the people of Wales.

Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa yn Sir Ddinbych, er i mi glywed manion achlysurol am broblemau yn ardal Sir Ddinbych. Deallais fod gweinyddiaeth Sir Ddinbych yn awyddus i ddod â Llafur i mewn, ac nad oedd y blaid Lafur yn awyddus i wneud hynny. Mater i blaid Lafur leol Sir Ddinbych yn unig yw hynny. Yr hyn yr ydym yn sôn amdano yw trefniant o fewn y Cynulliad i wneud i’r Cynulliad weithio’n well. Nid ydym yn dweud wrth bleidiau Llafur mewn ardaloedd eraill, lle mae Llafur yn y lleiafrif neu lle ceir rhesymau yn ymwneud â’r sefyllfa leol, fel drwgdeimlad rhwng Llafur a phleidiau eraill, beth y dylent neu beth sydd yn rhaid iddynt ei wneud oherwydd unrhyw drefniant a wnawn yma. Trefniant ymarferol a phragmataidd ydyw i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad hwn yn gweithredu’n well er mwyn cyflwyno gwasanaethau yn well i bobl Cymru.

Janet Ryder a gododd—

Janet Ryder rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. You have asked one question, Janet. You are not a party leader yet.

Trefn. Yr ydych wedi gofyn un cwestiwn, Janet. Nid ydych yn arweinydd plaid eto.

Datganiad ar y Memorandwm Cyd-ddealltwriaeth ar Gyflenwadau Tanwydd

Statement on the Memorandum of Understanding on Fuel Supplies

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 46

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

It is right and proper for me to take this opportunity to make a statement to the Assembly on the recent fuel crisis and the action that has been taken, or is in hand, to reduce the risk of a repeat of that crisis. I express my gratitude, on behalf of the Assembly, to the bodies that worked hard during the crisis to keep essential services going as long as possible. They did a magnificent job.

Mae’n gwbl briodol imi achub ar y cyfle hwn i wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad ar yr argyfwng tanwydd diweddar a’r camau a gymerwyd, neu sydd ar y gweill, i leihau’r risg y bydd argyfwng o’r fath yn digwydd eto. Hoffwn ddiolch, ar ran y Cynulliad, i’r cyrff a fu’n gweithio’n galed yn ystod yr argyfwng i sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau hanfodol yn parhau i weithio gyhyd â phosibl. Gwnaethant waith gwych.

Under the leadership of the Home Secretary, the UK Government has established a fuel taskforce, which is looking into minimising the effects of any future disruption of oil fuel supplies. I am a member of that taskforce, which also consists of four UK Cabinet Ministers, the Scottish Executive, the Trades Union Congress, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the major oil companies and several major hauliers.

O dan arweinyddiaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Cartref, mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi sefydlu tasglu tanwydd, sydd yn ystyried sut y gellir lleihau i’r eithaf effaith unrhyw achos o amharu ar gyflenwadau tanwydd olew yn y dyfodol. Yr wyf yn aelod o’r tasglu hwnnw, sydd hefyd yn cynnwys pedwar o Weinidogion Cabinet y DU, y Weithrediaeth yn yr Alban, Cynghrair yr Undebau Llafur, Cymdeithas Prif Swyddogion yr Heddlu, y prif gwmnïau olew a sawl cludwr nwyddau o bwys.

One of the outcomes of the taskforce’s work is a memorandum of understanding between its members, which I signed on behalf of the Assembly Cabinet. It seeks to ensure that every signatory takes the necessary contingency actions against possible future disruption, and it commits the National Assembly for Wales, within its devolved powers, to work to ensure the normal supply of oil fuels. Although, for security reasons, I cannot give all the details of proposed actions, the key elements of the memorandum of understanding are: early warning systems and co-ordinated contingency plans; crisis management systems; facilitating the movement of oil fuel to users and, in particular, to defined essential users; and action to prevent the intimidation of tanker drivers. I have arranged for a copy of that document to be placed in the Library.

Un o ganlyniadau gwaith y tasglu yw memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth rhwng ei aelodau, a lofnodais ar ran Cabinet y Cynulliad. Ei nod yw sicrhau bod pob llofnodwr yn cymryd y camau wrth gefn sydd eu hangen rhag unrhyw amhariaeth bosibl yn y dyfodol, ac mae’n ymrwymo Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, o fewn ei bwerau datganoledig, i weithio i sicrhau cyflenwad tanwydd olew normal. Er na allaf roi’r holl fanylion am y camau arfaethedig, am resymau diogelwch, prif elfennau’r memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth yw: systemau rhybuddio cynnar a chynlluniau wrth gefn cydlynus; systemau rheoli mewn argyfwng; hwyluso’r gwaith o symud tanwydd olew i ddefnyddwyr ac yn arbennig, i ddefnyddwyr hanfodol a ddiffinnir; a chamau i atal gyrwyr tanceri rhag cael eu bygwth. Trefnais i gopi o’r ddogfen honno gael ei rhoi yn y Llyfrgell.

Other aspects are still being finalised, but the oil companies have agreed to establish better mechanisms to inform on oil fuel deliveries, primarily through the police gold command systems, with a point of contact for the National Assembly. That will be of great help, as the difficulty in obtaining reliable information on time was a source of great frustration to us during the recent fuel crisis.

Mae agweddau eraill yn cael eu trefnu’n derfynol ar hyn o bryd, ond cytunodd y cwmnïau olew i sefydlu dulliau gwell o roi gwybod am ddosbarthiadau tanwydd olew, yn bennaf drwy systemau rheoli aur yr heddlu, gyda phwynt cyswllt ar gyfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Bydd hynny o gymorth mawr, gan fod yr anhawster wrth gael gwybodaeth ddibynadwy yn brydlon yn rhwystredigaeth fawr inni yn ystod yr argyfwng tanwydd diweddar.

An enhanced role is recognised for the National Assembly in any future crisis. In any emergency, the UK Government is responsible for overall strategy and policy, and that will remain the case. Command and control on the ground will continue to be exercised through local police gold command systems and their associated local inter-agency mechanisms, which include local authorities, health authorities, ambulance services and others. The Assembly’s role is to broker decisions on priorities with central Government and the oil companies when there is a need to balance supply demands across Wales, to advise central Government on any adjustments to national priorities or the redeployment of resources necessary to meet Welsh needs, to act as a central reporting point for the local agencies and ensure that an accurate analysis of the all-Wales position is available, and to ensure that central Government decisions are cascaded uniformly.

Cydnabyddir y bydd rôl fwy i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mewn unrhyw argyfwng yn y dyfodol. Mewn unrhyw argyfwng, Llywodraeth y DU a fydd yn gyfrifol am y strategaeth a pholisïau cyffredinol, a bydd hynny’n parhau. Systemau rheoli aur yr heddlu lleol a’u dulliau rhyngasiantaeth lleol cysylltiedig, gan gynnwys yr awdurdodau lleol, yr awdurdodau iechyd, y gwasanaethau ambiwlans ac eraill a fydd yn parhau i reoli ar lawr gwlad. Rôl y Cynulliad yw gwneud penderfyniadau ynglŷn â’r blaenoriaethau gyda Llywodraeth ganolog a’r cwmnïau olew pan fo angen cydbwyso galwadau am danwydd ledled Cymru, cynghori Llywodraeth ganolog ynglŷn ag unrhyw addasiadau i’r blaenoriaethau cenedlaethol neu ailddyrannu’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru, bod yn bwynt cofnodi canolog i asiantaethau lleol a sicrhau bod dadansoddiad cywir o’r sefyllfa drwy Gymru gyfan ar gael, a sicrhau y caiff penderfyniadau Llywodraeth ganolog eu rhaeadru’n gyson.

To help deliver that, we have agreed that, in any future crisis, the National Assembly will be represented at the police gold commands and inter-agency meetings, and that our partners will be represented at our communications centre. However, in a national emergency, strategic command will remain with central Government, and local arrangements for managing emergencies must remain as the prime command and control mechanism for dealing with the crisis. Whatever the Assembly does must add value.

Er mwyn helpu i gyflawni hynny, cytunasom y caiff y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, mewn unrhyw argyfwng yn y dyfodol, ei gynrychioli yng nghyfarfodydd rheoli aur yr heddlu a’r cyfarfodydd rhyngasiantaeth ac y cynrychiolir ein partneriaid yn ein canolfan gyfathrebu. Fodd bynnag, mewn argyfwng cenedlaethol, Llywodraeth ganolog fydd yn gyfrifol am reolaeth strategol a rhaid iddi barhau i fod yn brif reolwr a dull rheoli er mwyn ymdrin â’r argyfwng. Rhaid i’r hyn a wna’r Cynulliad ychwanegu gwerth.

The speed with which the fuel crisis impacted on Wales, and the UK in general, caught everybody by surprise, including those running the blockades. However, we must note the lessons that need to be learnt in Wales to identify how we can further improve the Welsh response to any crisis. Meetings with key partners in Wales have been taking place at official level, in an emergency working group for Wales. That involves health services, Welsh local government, police, fire and ambulance services, and emergency planning managers. That group’s work will help to ensure that the Assembly can deliver its commitments under the memorandum of understanding, by ensuring that there is clarity about the roles and responsibilities of everybody involved and that robust and clearly-understood communication channels are in place. The group is contributing to work in Whitehall to review detailed operational aspects, such as how the priority users scheme works, to ensure that Welsh experience is considered.

Yr oedd pawb, gan gynnwys y rhai a oedd yn trefnu’r blocadau, yn synnu o weld pa mor gyflym yr effeithiodd yr argyfwng tanwydd ar Gymru, a’r DU yn gyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ystyried y gwersi y mae angen eu dysgu yng Nghymru er mwyn nodi sut y gallwn wella’r ymateb i unrhyw argyfwng yng Nghymru ymhellach. Bu cyfarfodydd gyda’r partneriaid allweddol yng Nghymru ar lefel swyddogol, mewn gweithgor argyfwng ar gyfer Cymru. Mae hwnnw’n cynnwys y gwasanaethau iechyd, llywodraeth leol Cymru, yr heddlu, y gwasanaeth tân a’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans, a rheolwyr cynllunio mewn argyfwng. Bydd gwaith y grŵp hwnnw’n helpu i sicrhau y gall y Cynulliad gyflawni ei ddyletswyddau o dan y memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth, drwy sicrhau bod eglurhad ynglŷn â rolau a chyfrifoldebau pawb o dan sylw a bod sianeli cyfathrebu cadarn, eglur yn eu lle. Cyfranna’r grŵp at waith Whitehall o ran adolygu agweddau gweithredu manwl, megis sut mae’r cynllun defnyddwyr â blaenoriaeth yn gweithio, er mwyn sicrhau y caiff profiad Cymru ei ystyried.

Our common objective must be that the response in Wales to any repeat of the fuel crisis is as effective as possible. Our involvement in the discussions in Whitehall, at political and official level, together with our emergency working group, should ensure that we can deliver that. I will inform the Assembly of any significant developments.

Rhaid i’n hamcan cyffredin sicrhau y bydd yr ymateb yng Nghymru i unrhyw argyfwng tanwydd eto mor effeithiol â phosibl. Dylai ein cyfraniad yn y trafodaethau yn Whitehall, boed ar lefel wleidyddol neu swyddogol, ynghyd â’n gweithgor argyfwng, sicrhau y gallwn gyflawni hynny. Hysbysaf y Cynulliad o unrhyw ddatblygiadau arwyddocaol.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 49

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

There were welcome aspects in your statement, particularly the recognition of an enhanced role for the National Assembly. I look forward to reading the memorandum of understanding in its entirety. However, I have questions that are not answered in the report.

Yr oedd agweddau i’w croesawu yn eich datganiad, yn enwedig cydnabod rôl fwy i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddarllen y memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth yn ei chyfanrwydd. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf gwestiynau nas atebwyd yn yr adroddiad.

What was your involvement, or that of your colleagues, in any discussions with organisations representing the interests of fuel protesters, to try to help prevent any future protests by perhaps addressing some of the concerns that led to the protests? What progress, if any, has there been in any such discussions?

Pa ran fu gennych chi, neu eich cyd-Aelodau, mewn unrhyw drafodaethau gyda’r sefydliadau sydd yn cynrychioli buddiannau’r protestwyr tanwydd, er mwyn ceisio helpu i atal unrhyw brotestiadau yn y dyfodol efallai drwy fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r pryderon a arweiniodd at y protestiadau? Pa gynnydd a fu, os o gwbl, mewn unrhyw drafodaethau o’r fath?

Furthermore, should such protests reoccur—obviously we all hope that they will not, and that they can be avoided—what role will he or his appropriate Cabinet colleague play in negotiating with protesters to ensure that supplies for essential users are maintained? He will be aware that there was extensive criticism about the apparent lack of action. While I appreciate that there are boundaries to our roles and responsibilities, there was a feeling that the Government of Wales should have been taking a more proactive role here.

Yn ogystal, pe bai protestiadau o’r fath yn digwydd eto—wrth gwrs gobeithiwn oll na fyddant yn digwydd eto, ac y gellir eu hosgoi—pa rôl fydd ef neu ei gyd-aelod Cabinet priodol yn ei chwarae wrth negodi gyda’r protestwyr i sicrhau y caiff cyflenwadau i’r defnyddwyr hanfodol eu cynnal? Bydd yn ymwybodol o’r feirniadaeth helaeth ynghylch y diffyg gweithredu ymddangosiadol. Er fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi bod ffiniau i’n rolau a’n cyfrifoldebau, bu teimlad y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod wedi cymryd rôl fwy rhagweithredol yma.

Furthermore, will he explain to the Assembly why he is making this statement today, rather than Sue Essex, if it was appropriate for Sue to make the statements during the crisis? It would surely seem appropriate for her to carry on, though I understand that he is a member of the taskforce. He might want to explain why he was a member of that taskforce and not his colleague. In that context—and we must stress that we hope that this does not happen—should there be any repeat of the crisis, will he undertake to report in person to the Assembly, as his colleague Donald Dewar did to the Scottish Parliament?

At hynny, a fydd yn egluro i’r Cynulliad pam mai ef sydd yn gwneud y datganiad hwn heddiw yn hytrach na Sue Essex, os oedd yn briodol i Sue wneud y datganiadau yn ystod yr argyfwng? Ymddangosai ei bod yn gwbl briodol iddi gario ymlaen, er y deallaf ei fod yn aelod o’r tasglu. Efallai yr hoffai egluro pam mai ef oedd yn aelod o’r tasglu hwnnw yn hytrach na’i gyd-aelod Cabinet. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw—a rhaid inni bwysleisio y gobeithiwn na fydd hyn yn digwydd eto—os bydd argyfwng arall, a fydd yn addo rhoi adroddiad yn bersonol i’r Cynulliad, fel y gwnaeth ei gyd-aelod Donald Dewar i Senedd yr Alban?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 50

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

As regards consulting the fuel protesters on this issue, they were not present at the fuel taskforce meetings and, therefore, are not party to the memorandum of understanding. I do not think that anyone would have expected them to have been. However, Sue Essex has established a special sub-group of the Wales Transport Forum to consider the impact of fuel prices on businesses and private individuals across Wales. A meeting was held on 21 September and Helen Mary will be interested to know that Brynle Williams—who is widely regarded as the leader of the protesters—and two of his colleagues from the fuel protesters’ movement, plus Phil Walters, the Texaco representative, and representatives of the two farming unions were present at that meeting. That is a healthy sign, in terms of warding off the likelihood of more protests—though not a guarantee—now that we have a channel of communication open to the fuel protest movement.

O ran ymgynghori â’r protestwyr tanwydd ynglŷn â’r mater hwn, nid oeddent yn bresennol yng nghyfarfodydd y tasglu tanwydd ac, felly, nid ydynt yn rhan o’r memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth. Ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw un wedi disgwyl hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae Sue Essex wedi sefydlu is-grŵp arbennig o Fforwm Trafnidiaeth Cymru a fydd yn ystyried effaith prisiau tanwydd ar fusnesau ac unigolion preifat ledled Cymru. Bu cyfarfod ar 21 Medi a bydd Helen Mary yn falch o glywed bod Brynle Williams—a ystyriwyd gan lawer fel arweinydd y protestwyr—a dau o’i gyd-brostestwyr o fudiad y protestwyr tanwydd, ynghyd â Phil Walters, sef cynrychiolydd o Texaco, a chynrychiolwyr o’r ddau undeb amaethwyr yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw. Mae hynny’n argoeli’n dda, o ran atal rhagor o brotestiadau yn y dyfodol—er nad oes sicrwydd—gan fod gennym sianel gyfathrebu ar agor i’r mudiad protestwyr tanwydd yn awr.

In terms of her criticisms and almost pointing a finger of blame at the Assembly, it is true that, if you sat in that communications centre room in Cathays Park for any period of time, you would hear of critical problems arising. That was why it was there, to hear what problems arose: this nurse was unable to get fuel, that carer was unable to get fuel, this gas pipeline had a leak, and there was no fuel in the Transco vans to go out to repair it. That was the very reason for setting up an information centre like our emergency centre. You could blame the Assembly for not having done anything about it in advance. However, when there is a crisis and a huge shortage, you will have problems, and the issue is to respond to those problems as quickly as possible. I hope that we will be able to do better next time, but that should not encourage the fuel protesters to think that they can have another fuel protest because it will not affect emergency services and essential supplies.

O ran ei beirniadaeth gan roi’r bai ar y Cynulliad bron, mae’n wir, pe baech wedi eistedd yn y ganolfan gyfathrebu honno ym Mharc Cathays am unrhyw gyfnod, byddech yn clywed am broblemau difrifol yn codi. Dyna pam y cafodd ei sefydlu, er mwyn clywed pa broblemau a gododd: ni allai un nyrs gael tanwydd, ni allai cynhaliwr arall gael tanwydd, yr oedd pibell nwy yn gollwng, ac nid oedd tanwydd yn faniau Transco i fynd allan i’w hatgyweirio. Dyna’r gwir reswm dros sefydlu canolfan gwybodaeth fel ein canolfan argyfwng. Gallech feio’r Cynulliad am beidio â gwneud dim byd amdano ymlaen llaw. Fodd bynnag, pan fo argyfwng a phrinder mawr, bydd gennych broblemau, a’r pwynt yw ymateb i’r problemau hynny mor fuan â phosibl. Gobeithiaf y gallwn wneud yn well y tro nesaf, ond ni ddylai hynny annog y protestwyr tanwydd i feddwl y gallant drefnu protest tanwydd arall am na fydd yn amharu ar y gwasanaethau brys a’r cyflenwadau hanfodol.

The third question: why am I dealing with this now? Simply because I signed the memorandum of understanding.

Y trydydd cwestiwn: pam mai fi sydd yn ymdrin â hyn yn awr? Yn syml am mai fi a lofnododd y memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth.

David Davies spoken in English p. 51

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I begin by echoing the thanks expressed in the first paragraph of this document to the emergency services for the hard work that they undertook. I also, like Helen Mary, have a couple of specific concerns about this. My first concern relates to the membership of this taskforce. You say that, in addition to yourself, it will consist of four UK Cabinet Ministers, presumably one member of the Scottish Executive, the TUC, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the major oil companies and several major hauliers. The first question is: instead of simply talking to several major hauliers, would it not be pertinent to talk to some of the bodies that represent hauliers, such as the Freight Transport Association or the Institute of Logistics, who can speak for many of the small hauliers, not just for one or two of the large ones?

Dechreuaf drwy ategu’r diolchiadau ym mharagraff cyntaf y ddogfen hon i’r gwasanaethau brys am eu gwaith caled. Mae gennyf innau, fel Helen Mary, ychydig o bryderon penodol ynglŷn â hyn. Mae fy mhryder cyntaf yn ymwneud ag aelodaeth y tasglu hwn. Dywedwch y bydd yn cynnwys, heblaw amdanoch chi, bedwar o Weinidogion Cabinet y DU, un aelod o Weithrediaeth yr Alban mae’n siŵr, y TUC, Cymdeithas Prif Swyddogion yr Heddlu, y prif gwmnïau olew a sawl cludwr nwyddau o bwys. Y cwestiwn cyntaf yw: yn hytrach na siarad ag ychydig o’r prif gludwyr nwyddau yn unig, oni fyddai’n berthnasol siarad â rhai o’r cyrff sydd yn cynrychioli cludwyr nwyddau, fel y Gymdeithas Trafnidiaeth Cludo Nwyddau neu’r Sefydliad Logisteg, a all siarad ar ran llawer o’r cludwyr bach, ac nid ar ran un neu ddau o’r rhai mawr yn unig?

The second point is that you say in this statement that no one expected the fuel crisis to hit as quickly as it did. As I pointed out before, it did so because we are so reliant on the just-in-time system as very few stocks are kept in this country. Following on from that, industry in one part of the country relies very much on having goods delivered to them from other parts of the country. As well as having Wales and Scotland represented, there needs to be representation on this taskforce from all parts of the United Kingdom. That could mean local government leaders in large urban conurbations, such as Manchester or Liverpool, and it would certainly mean at least one person from the new London executive. It is not good enough to look at Wales and Scotland in isolation, because we are so dependent on other parts of the UK.

Yr ail bwynt yw y dywedwch yn y datganiad hwn nad oedd neb yn disgwyl i’r argyfwng tanwydd effeithio ar bobl mor fuan ag y gwnaeth. Fel y nodais o’r blaen, gwnaeth hynny am ein bod mor ddibynnol ar y systemau dim-ond-mewn-pryd gan mai ychydig o stociau a gedwir yn y wlad hon. Yn sgîl hynny, mae diwydiant mewn un rhan o’r wlad yn ddibynnol iawn ar nwyddau yn cael eu dosbarthu iddynt o rannau eraill o’r wlad. Yn ogystal â chynrychiolaeth o Gymru a’r Alban, mae angen cynrychiolaeth o bob rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig ar y tasglu hwn. Gallai hynny olygu arweinwyr llywodraeth leol mewn cytrefi mawr, fel Manceinion neu Lerpwl, a byddai’n sicr yn golygu un person o leiaf o weithrediaeth newydd Llundain. Nid yw’n ddigon da edrych ar Gymru a’r Alban ar wahân, am ein bod mor ddibynnol ar rannau eraill o’r DU.

I want to raise a point regarding the information that you have provided on how a crisis will be dealt with next time. In fact, I should say the lack of information, because all we have heard about are the early warning systems and the crisis management systems. That is fair enough and we understand that. However, this third bullet point is far too general: ‘to facilitate the movement of oil fuel to users, and, in particular, to defined essential users’. We need to know how you will facilitate the movement of oil fuel to users. There is no mention of how this will happen in the document. We appreciate that fuel has to move, but if we are to take this statement seriously we need more information.

Hoffwn godi pwynt am yr wybodaeth a roddwyd gennych ynghylch sut y dylid ymdrin ag argyfwng y tro nesaf. Yn wir, dylwn ddweud diffyg gwybodaeth, gan mai’r cwbl a glywsom oedd y systemau rhybudd cynnar. Mae hynny’n ddigon teg a deallwn hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r trydydd pwynt bwled hwn yn llawer rhy gyffredinol: ‘to facilitate the movement of oil fuel to users, and, in particular, to defined essential users’. Mae angen inni wybod sut y byddwch yn hwyluso’r gwaith o symud tanwydd olew i ddefnyddwyr. Nid oes sôn yn y ddogfen am sut y bydd hyn yn digwydd. Gwerthfawrogwn fod yn rhaid symud tanwydd, ond os byddwn am ystyried y datganiad hwn o ddifrif mae angen inni gael rhagor o wybodaeth.

I deplore the fourth bullet point: ‘action to prevent intimidation of tanker drivers’. There is an insinuation in this that there was some form of intimidation. However, when I spoke to police officers who were involved in policing this dispute—and I hope that you also spoke to them, First Secretary—they told me categorically that there was virtually no intimidation. In one or two isolated cases, certain extremists who pretended to be part of the protest, but were in fact nothing to do with the protest—they came from extreme left and right wing political groups—tried to cause some problems. However, the vast majority, 99.9 per cent of the people who were on those picket lines—

Mae’n gas gennyf y pedwerydd pwynt bwled sef: ‘action to prevent intimidation of tanker drivers’. Awgryma hynny y bu rhyw fath o fygythiad. Fodd bynnag, pan siaradais â swyddogion yr heddlu a oedd yn ymwneud â phlismona’r anghydfod hwn—a gobeithiaf ichi hefyd siarad â hwy, Brif Ysgrifennydd—dywedasant wrthyf yn bendant nad oedd braidd dim bygythiadau. Mewn un neu ddau o achosion yn unig, ceisiodd eithafwyr a oedd yn cymryd arnynt eu bod yn rhan o’r protest, ond nad oeddent mewn gwirionedd—yr oeddent yn aelodau o grwpiau gwleidyddol eithafol o’r adain chwith a’r adain dde—achosi rhai problemau. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y mwyafrif llethol, 99.9 y cant o’r bobl ar y llinellau piced—

Val Feld a gododd—

Val Feld rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Order. We are in the middle of questions.

Trefn. Yr ydym yng nghanol cwestiynau.

Val Feld spoken in English p. 52

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I know we are.

Gwn hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Order. I will take points of order after questions.

Trefn. Cymeraf y pwyntiau o drefn ar ôl y cwestiynau.

David Davies spoken in English p. 52

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

By putting in a bullet point like this and suggesting that intimidation went on, it makes further protest even more likely—

Drwy gynnwys pwynt bwled fel hwn gan awgrymu y bu bygythiadau, mae’n sicrhau y bydd prostestiadau pellach yn fwy tebygol fyth o ddigwydd—

Sawl Aelod o’r Cynulliad a gododd—

Several Assembly Members rose—

David Davies spoken in English p. 52

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I suggest that the Members who are trying to talk over me go and talk to the police and get their facts sorted before they try to interrupt this debate.

Awgrymaf y dylai’r Aelodau sydd yn ceisio siarad ar fy nhraws fynd i siarad â’r heddlu a chael eu ffeithiau yn gywir cyn ceisio ymyrryd yn y ddadl hon.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order. No Members can talk over any other Members in this Chamber because the ultimate control of the sound system rests with me.

Trefn. Ni all yr un Aelod siarad ar draws Aelodau eraill yn y Siambr hon am mai myfi sydd yn gyfrifol am y system sain yn y pen draw.

David Davies spoken in English p. 53

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Thank you for that clarification, Llywydd. Does the First Secretary agree that the Assembly could make a valuable contribution in a further crisis such as the fuel crisis by silencing inflammatory comments, such as those that came from the First Secretary’s colleague, Tony Blair, in No. 10? He lengthened that protest by about 24 hours when he laid down a challenge to the protesters, saying that fuel would be moving the following day. They had thought about backing down, but they were not prepared to do so in the face of such a challenge. Perhaps the First Secretary could play a useful role in silencing his colleagues.

Diolch yn fawr ichi am yr eglurhad hwnnw, Lywydd. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cytuno y gallai’r Cynulliad wneud cyfraniad gwerthfawr mewn argyfwng arall megis yr argyfwng tanwydd drwy roi taw ar y sylwadau ymfflamychol, megis y sylwadau gan gyd-aelod y Prif Ysgrifennydd, Tony Blair yn Rhif 10? Estynnodd y brotest honno 24 awr pan heriodd y protestwyr, gan ddweud y byddai’r tanwydd yn symud y diwrnod canlynol. Yr oeddent wedi ystyried ildio, ond nid oeddent yn barod i wneud hyn ar ôl her o’r fath. Efallai y gallai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd chwarae rôl ddefnyddiol wrth roi taw ar ei gyd-Aelodau.

Finally, as Helen Mary mentioned, during that protest the Prime Minister said that he would be happy to talk to the people on those picket lines and at the barricades when those barricades came down. They were not barricades—

Yn olaf, soniodd Helen Mary yn ystod y brotest honno i’r Prif Weinidog ddweud y byddai’n barod i siarad â phobl ar y llinellau piced hynny ac wrth y rhwystrau pan ddeuai’r rhwystrau i lawr. Nid rhwytrau oeddent—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 53

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Were they barricades or were they not barricades?

Ai rhwystrau oeddent ai peidio?

David Davies spoken in English p. 53

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I am being barricaded by the Member behind me. It will be difficult to continue if you keep interrupting. If you want to stand up and make some point of order, I would be happy—

Mae’r Aelod y tu ôl imi yn fy rhwystro innau. Bydd yn anodd parhau os mynnywch dorri ar fy nhraws. Os hoffech sefyll a gwneud rhyw bwynt o drefn, byddwn yn hapus—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order. I would not be happy, David. Can you finish your questions now?

Trefn. Ni fyddwn i yn hapus, David. A wnewch orffen eich cwestiwn yn awr?

David Davies spoken in English p. 53

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Have the First Secretary, the Prime Minister and the members of this Executive upheld that promise to talk to the people who were involved in those protests? They are ordinary people—hauliers and members of the public—who are sick of paying money hand over fist so that Gordon Brown can fill his war chest and bribe people to vote for him in the next general election.

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd, y Prif Weinidog ac aelodau’r Weithrediaeth hon wedi cadw’r addewid hwnnw i siarad â’r bobl a gymerodd ran yn y protestiadau hynny? Pobl gyffredin ydynt—cludwyr nwyddau ac aelodau’r cyhoedd—sydd wedi syrffedu ar roi arian byth a beunydd fel y gall Gordon Brown lenwi ei gist rhyfel a llwgrwobrwyo pobl i bleidleisio drosto yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 53

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

David, many of your questions are valid. However, it is much easier to respond to someone’s questions when I can read their lips without them being obscured by flecks of white foam when they reach their peroration. However, if I stick to the non-emotional points, there was a lot of sensible material, to which I will try to respond.

David, mae llawer o’ch cwestiynau’n rhai dilys. Fodd bynnag, mae’n llawer haws ymateb i gwestiynau rhywun os gallaf weld ei wefusau heb iddynt gael eu cuddio gan ewyn wrth i’r siaradwr gyrraedd pen ei araith. Fodd bynnag, os cadwaf at y pwyntiau anemosiynol, yr oedd tipyn o ddeunydd synhwyrol y gwnaf geisio ymateb iddo.

As regards which representatives of the haulage industry are on the fuel taskforce and are signatories of the memorandum of understanding, there are the oil hauliers who work on contract, such as P&O working for Shell and Esso, and there is also the independent oil haulage industry. This is about the movement of oil, which is critical in trying to ward off a fuel crisis impacting on essential services. Those two groups of hauliers are represented.

O ran pa gynrychiolwyr o’r diwydiant cludo nwyddau sydd yn aelodau o’r tasglu tanwydd ac yn llofnodwyr y memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth, mae cludwyr olew sydd yn gweithio ar gontract, megis P&O sydd yn gweithio i Shell ac Esso, ac mae’r diwydiant cludo olew annibynnol hefyd. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â symud olew, sydd yn hanfodol wrth geisio atal argyfwng tanwydd rhag amharu ar y gwasanaethau hanfodol. Mae’r ddau grŵp hwnnw wedi eu cynrychioli.

Sue Essex has included representatives of the Road Haulage Association and the Freight Transport Association—who tend to represent the larger and smaller elements of the road haulage industry—on her transport forum. As I mentioned earlier—I am contradicting some of the implications of what you were saying, David—Brynle Williams and the leaders of the protest movement, and the farmers’ unions, at least one of which is not entirely unfamiliar with some of the elements of this protest, are also on her transport consultation group. That must be a good sign. We should all welcome that. We have a channel open to the protest movement. David Davies should not imply otherwise.

Mae Sue Essex wedi cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o’r Gymdeithas Cludo Nwyddau ar y Ffordd a’r Gymdeithas Trafnidiaeth Cludo Nwyddau—sydd yn tueddu i gynrychioli’r aelodau mawr a bach yn y diwydiant cludo nwyddau ar y ffordd—ar ei fforwm trafnidiaeth. Fel y soniais yn gynharach—gwrthddywedaf rai o’r ymhlygiadau yn yr hyn a ddywedwyd gennych, David—mae Brynle Williams ac arweinwyr y mudiad prostest, ac unedebau’r amaethwyr, o leiaf un nad yw’n gwbl anghyfarwydd â rhai elfennau o’r brotest hon hefyd ar ei grŵp ymgynghorol ar drafnidiaeth. Rhaid mai da o beth yw hynny. Dylem oll groesawu hynny. Mae sianel wedi ei hagor i’r mudiad prostest. Ni ddylai David Davies awgrymu fel arall.

That was not the purpose of the fuel taskforce. Its purpose was to try to ensure that if the fuel crisis hits again, we will not be caught so short. I hope that he accepts that the protesters themselves did not realise how vulnerable this country was, because it had just become so dominant. Bunkers have disappeared from ambulance stations and from many local industrial companies, therefore, they do not have even seven days worth of fuel in stock. They have no fuel in stock. They simply order and pay for it on their gold card or credit card at the local filling station. That is how it works these days. It is quite unlike the way it worked 10 years ago and it has made the country far more vulnerable to fuel protests.

Nid dyna oedd diben y tasglu tanwydd. Ei ddiben oedd ceisio sicrhau na fydd prinder, os bydd argyfwng tanwydd arall. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn derbyn nad oedd y protestwyr eu hunain yn sylweddoli pa mor fregus oedd y wlad hon, am iddo ddatblygu mor gryf. Nid oes howldiau bellach yn y gorsafoedd ambiwlans na chan y cwmnïau diwydiannol lleol, felly, nid oes ganddynt hyd yn oed gwerth saith diwrnod o danwydd mewn stoc. Nid oes ganddynt unrhyw danwydd mewn stoc. Maent ond yn ei archebu ac yn talu amdano ar eu cerdyn aur neu eu cerdyn credyd yn yr orsaf betrol leol. Dyna sut mae pethau y dyddiau hyn. Mae’n gwbl wahanol i’r hyn a ddigwyddodd 10 mlynedd yn ôl ac mae wedi gwneud y wlad yn llawer mwy bregus os bydd protestiadau tanwydd.

He mentioned the question of the flow of deliveries and goods back and fore between different parts of the UK. He is right, of course, and I think that Wales was the only place that had factory lay-offs. It was only Peter’s Food Service in Bedwas and Panasonic in Cardiff, as far as I am aware, that had to shut factories for two or three days because of the lack of fuel. They are represented via the DTI and the DETR, who are among the four UK central Government departments on the fuel taskforce. That is their job. He may think that Ken Livingstone should also have been on the taskforce but I cannot be responsible for what happens in England.

Soniodd am fater llif dosbarthiadau a nwyddau yn ôl ac ymlaen rhwng y gwahanol rannu o’r DU. Mae’n llygad ei le, wrth gwrs, a chredaf mai yng Nghymru yn unig y caewyd ffatrïoedd. Dim ond Peter’s Food Service ym Medwas a Panasonic yng Nghaerdydd, hyd y gwn, a fu’n rhaid cau ffatrïoedd am ddau neu dri diwrnod oherwydd diffyg tanwydd. Fe’u cynrychiolir trwy’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, sydd ymhlith pedair adran Llywodraeth ganolog y DU sydd ar y tasglu tanwydd. Dyna eu swydd. Efallai ei fod o’r farn y dylai Ken Livingstone hefyd fod yn aelod o’r tasglu ond ni allaf fod yn gyfrifol am yr hyn a ddigwydd yn Lloegr.

The question of intimidation is interesting. We struggled long and hard with this in three meetings of the fuel taskforce. Was there or was there not intimidation? Or was there enough intimidation at least to prevent the tankers’ drivers going out? I do not think that anybody would say that there had been no intimidation of drivers. When the fuel protest began on that Thursday night in Stanlow, there was probably no doubt that there was intimidation. I have the word of a local MP who was present for most of that night that there was intimidation. Perhaps it was only on that first night. We do not know. However, that was enough to set the tone, which made tanker drivers reluctant to go out, because after all they are basically driving incendiary bombs. They have 36,000 litres of fuel behind them when they sit in the cab. That is an incendiary bomb. The fear of a brick through the window is a big fear for a fuel tanker driver who is worried about intimidation or has heard on the grapevine that there was intimidation—

Mae mater y bygythiadau yn un diddorol. Bu cryn drafodaeth ar hynny mewn tri chyfarfod o’r tasglu tanwydd. A oedd bygythiadau ai peidio? Neu a oedd digon o fygythiad o leiaf i atal gyrwyr tanceri rhag gyrru allan? Ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw un yn dweud na chafodd y gyrwyr eu bygwth o gwbl. Pan ddechreuodd y brotest tanwydd ar y nos Iau yn Stanlow, nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth bron bod bygythiadau. Mae gennyf air AS lleol a oedd yn bresennol drwy gydol y noson bron bod bygythiadau. Efallai mai dim ond ar y noson gyntaf honno yr oedd hynny. Ni wyddom. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd hynny’n ddigon i osod y naws, a oedd yn sicrhau bod y gyrwyr tanceri yn anfodlon mynd allan, am eu bod wedi’r cyfan yn gyrru bomiau cynnau tân yn y bôn. Mae ganddynt 36,000 o litrau o danwydd y tu ôl iddynt pan fyddant yn eistedd yn y caban. Bom gynnau tân ydyw. Mae ofn bric trwy’r ffenestr yn ofn mawr i yrrwr tancer tanwydd sydd yn pryderu am fygythiadau neu sydd wedi clywed si bod bygythiadau—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Order. This is a statement.

Trefn. Datganiad yw hwn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 56

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

There was enough intimidation to create fear among the tanker drivers, and giving them the assurances that they require is a key part in preventing another crisis. If you can keep the tanker drivers going out, with police protection as appropriate, then there will not be a repetition of the fuel crisis impacting on essential services and industries, such as Peter’s Food Service or Panasonic.

Yr oedd digon o fygythiadau i godi braw ar y gyrwyr tanceri, ac mae rhoi’r sicrwydd sydd ei angen arnynt yn rhan allweddol o atal argyfwng arall. Os gallwch sicrhau bod y gyrwyr tanceri’n mynd allan, o dan ddiogelwch yr heddlu fel y bo’n briodol, yna ni fydd argyfwng tanwydd sydd yn effeithio ar y gwasanaethau hanfodol a’r diwydiannau, fel Peter’s Food Service neu Panasonic, yn digwydd eto.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 56

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Intimidation has been exaggerated. There was one incident when a lorry driver attempted to drive through some people. I think that he was charged, but it is over now. However, it was the most peaceful picketing that I have ever seen in Stanlow. There was no intimidation. David mentioned that the blockade might have finished 24 hours earlier. It was called off. However, tanker drivers arrived and said that they would not carry on because of what had happened in London.

Cafodd bygythiadau eu gorliwio. Bu un digwyddiad pan geisiodd gyrrwr lorri yrru tancer drwy nifer o bobl. Credaf iddo gael ei gyhuddo, ond mae’r cyfan drosodd bellach. Fodd bynnag, dyna’r picedu mwyaf heddychlon a welais erioed yn Stanlow. Nid oedd unrhyw fygythiadau. Soniodd David y gallai’r blocâd fod wedi ei godi 24 awr ynghynt. Fe’i codwyd. Fodd bynnag, cyrhaeddodd gyrwyr tanceri gan ddweud na fyddent yn mynd ymlaen oherwydd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Llundain.

There are lessons that must be learnt. There was a protest in Stanlow, which is one of the biggest refineries in Europe. It started, as you quite rightly said, on Thursday evening. We did not react to that. We left it until the Tuesday, when Tony Blair went to celebrate Prescott’s 40 years in politics. The Assembly must react quicker if this ever happens again. Services in areas such as my constituency in Ynys Môn, would not have suffered as they did if the Assembly had been negotiating or if you had been in charge and set up a group. We would then have known that the emergency services would be maintained. It was a lack of co-operation. Those corridors must be covered next time. If it ever happens again, we must react quicker.

Mae gwersi y mae’n rhaid eu dysgu. Bu protest yn Stanlow, sef un o’r purfeydd mwyaf yn Ewrop. Dechreuodd, fel y nodwyd gennych yn gywir, nos Iau. Nid ymatebwyd i hynny. Gadawsom bethau tan ddydd Mawrth, pan aeth Tony Blair i ddathlu pen-blwydd 40 mlynedd John Prescott mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad ymateb ynghynt os digwydd hyn fyth eto. Ni fyddai gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd fel fy etholaeth i yn Ynys Môn, wedi dioddef fel y gwnaethant pe bai’r Cynulliad wedi bod yn negodi neu pe baech chi wedi bod yn gyfrifol ac wedi sefydlu grŵp. Byddem wedyn wedi cael gwybod y byddai’r gwasanaethau brys yn cael eu cynnal. Bu diffyg cydweithredu. Rhaid cwmpasu hyn y tro nesaf. Os bydd yn digwydd byth eto, rhaid inni ymateb ynghynt.

However, there is an answer to this. We must recognise that it is unfair to pay these fuel prices in this country. We have the cheapest fuel prices before tax, and yet, after tax, we are the most expensive in Europe. It discriminates against haulage and people in rural areas. If we understand that and we allay those kinds of fears, we will not face such crises again.

Fodd bynnag, mae ateb i hyn. Rhaid inni gydnabod ei bod yn annheg talu’r prisiau tanwydd hyn yn y wlad hon. Ni sydd â’r prisiau tanwydd rhataf cyn treth, ond eto, ar ôl treth, ni sydd â’r prisiau uchaf yn Ewrop. Mae’n gwahaniaethu yn erbyn y diwydiant cludo nwyddau a phobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Os deallwn hynny a thawelu’r mathau hynny o bryderon, ni wynebwn argyfyngau o’r fath eto.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 57

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

There are two points there, namely how quickly could we and should we have reacted to the protest movement. Peter will accept that many people, mostly among the protesters themselves, did not expect the protest to last beyond the weekend. The protesters expected it to last Thursday, Friday and Saturday perhaps, before calling it off on Saturday night. However, they realised that they had tapped into a wellspring of public support that they did not anticipate. Perhaps someone then said ‘the public are behind us so we can go for their throats, rather than go home on Saturday night or Sunday morning’. That caught them by surprise and it is, therefore, not entirely surprising that it caught everyone else by surprise. On the first day that we returned to work after that, which was the Monday, we set up the emergency centre. I am not sure how we could have acted quicker than to react on the first working day after we realised that the protest had not been called off and that there could be an impact on public services.

Mae dau bwynt yma, sef, pa mor gyflym y gallem ac y dylem fod wedi ymateb i’r mudiad protest. Bydd Peter yn derbyn nad oedd llawer o bobl, yn bennaf ymhlith y protestwyr eu hunain, yn disgwyl i’r brotest barhau ar ôl y penwythnos. Yr oedd y protestwyr yn disgwyl iddi barhau tan ddydd Iau, dydd Gwener a dydd Sadwrn diwethaf o bosibl, cyn rhoi’r gorau iddi nos Sadwrn. Fodd bynnag, sylweddolasant eu bod wedi ennyn cefnogaeth ymhlith y cyhoedd nad oeddent wedi ei rhagweld. Efallai i rywun ddweud ‘mae’r cyhoedd yn ein cefnogi felly gallwn fynd ati, yn hytrach na mynd adref nos Sadwrn neu fore Sul’. Fe’i synnwyd gan hynny ac felly nid yw’n rhyfeddod o gwbl bod pawb arall wedi eu synnu. Ar y diwrnod cyntaf y dychwelasom i’r gwaith ar ôl hynny, sef ddydd Llun, sefydlwyd canolfan frys gennym. Nid wyf yn siŵr sut y gallem fod wedi gweithredu ynghynt nag ymateb ar y diwrnod gwaith cyntaf ar ôl inni sylweddoli nad oedd y protestwyr wedi rhoi’r gorau iddi ac y gellid effeithio ar y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

Peter’s point on fuel prices is fair. The combination of the high tax regime, which began under the Conservative Government and carried on under the present one, the beyond-inflation increases in vehicle excise and fuel duty has placed a big burden on everyone. However, the Conservative Government started it, and it continued under our Government, when oil was very cheap. It was $9 a barrel, then $10, it fell back to $9, then rose to $11 and so on. Everyone thought that it was a nice kind of revenue. Then, all of a sudden, since April or May this year, the price of oil has almost quadrupled. It rose from $9 a barrel to peak at $35 a barrel. Oil now costs $27 or $28 a barrel, which is still very high. If one had known that we would now enter a period of high fuel prices, neither the Conservative nor the Labour Government would ever have dreamt of introducing the fuel duty escalator. However, it seemed to be the right thing to do when Norman Lamont introduced it. It also seemed right for Kenneth Clarke and Gordon Brown to continue with it. However, if you knew that you were in a period when crude oil was expensive, you would not do it.

Mae pwynt Peter ynglŷn â phrisiau tanwydd yn un teg. Mae’r cyfuniad o’r drefn trethi uchel, a ddechreuodd o dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ac sydd yn parhau o dan yr un bresennol, a’r cynnydd mewn ecséis cerbydau a threth danwydd sydd yn uwch na chwyddiant wedi gosod baich mawr ar bawb. Fodd bynnag, y Llywodraeth Geidwadol a ddechreuodd hyn, ac mae wedi parhau o dan ein Llywodraeth ni, pan oedd olew yn rhad iawn. Yr oedd yn costio $9 y gasgen, wedyn $10 y gasgen, gostyngodd i $9, gan godi i $11 ac yn y blaen. Credai pawb ei fod yn refeniw bach net. Wedyn yn sydyn iawn, ers Ebrill neu Fai eleni, cynyddodd pris olew bedair gwaith bron. Cododd o $9 y gasgen i uchafswm o $35 y gasgen. Mae olew bellach yn costio $27 neu $28 y gasgen, sydd yn uchel iawn o hyd. Pe bai rhywun wedi gwybod ein bod yn awr mewn cyfnod o brisiau tanwydd uchel, ni fyddai’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol na’r Llywodraeth Lafur wedi breuddwydio am gyflwyno’r esgynnydd treth tanwydd. Fodd bynnag, ymddangosai mai hynny oedd y peth cywir i’w wneud pan gyflwynodd Norman Lamont ef. Ymddangosai mai’r peth cywir hefyd oedd i Kenneth Clarke a Gordon Brown barhau ag ef. Fodd bynnag, pe baech yn gwybod eich bod mewn cyfnod pan oedd olew crai yn ddrud, ni fyddech wedi gwneud hynny.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 58

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I thank the First Secretary for his statement. I would also like to express my gratitude to those who worked incredibly hard to maintain services under difficult circumstances. Does the First Secretary accept that, despite the best efforts of officials here and of people throughout the country, there was a quite disastrous effect on a number of services? I have a particular interest in the national health service and in social services. Will there be an evaluation by the administration into the effects of the crisis on the NHS, looking in particular at the 110 operations that were cancelled in Cardiff, the 100 in Swansea and the 100 in north-west Wales? Will the First Secretary ensure that contingency plans for the NHS for such a crisis in future will be a priority for this administration? Will he also take steps to ensure that vital staff are kept in the picture? While we in the Chamber were hearing from Sue Essex that vital fuel supplies were getting through, the general practitioners and the community nurses who needed them had little idea about where to get those supplies and how the system would operate. I would be grateful if the First Secretary could ensure that we find better ways of informing those vital staff in the community of how they can access fuel supplies.

Diolchaf i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am ei ddatganiad. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i’r rhai a fu’n gweithio’n rhyfeddol o galed i gynnal y gwasanaethau o dan amgylchiadau anodd. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn derbyn y bu effaith drychinebus ar nifer o wasanaethau, er gwaethaf ymdrechion y swyddogion yma a phobl ymhob rhan o’r wlad? Mae gennyf ddiddordeb arbennig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. A fydd y weinyddiaeth yn gwerthuso pa effaith a gafodd yr argyfwng ar yr NHS, gan ystyried yn benodol y 110 o lawdriniaethau a gafodd eu canslo yng Nghaerdydd, y 100 yn Abertawe a’r 100 yng ngogledd-orllewin Cymru? A fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn sicrhau y bydd y weinyddiaeth hon yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i gynlluniau wrth gefn ar gyfer yr NHS os digwydd argyfwng o’r fath yn y dyfodol? A fydd hefyd yn cymryd camau i sicrhau bod aelodau holl bwysig o staff yn cael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf? Tra ein bod ni yn y Siambr yn clywed gan Sue Essex bod y cyflenwadau tanwydd hanfodol yn cyrraedd, nid oedd syniad gan y meddygon teulu a’r nyrsys cymuned yr oedd eu hangen arnynt ble y dylent fynd i gael y cyflenwadau hynny a sut y byddai’r system yn gweithredu. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd sicrhau y gallwn gael ffyrdd gwell o hysbysu aelodau holl bwysig o staff yn y gymuned ynglŷn â sut y gallant gael cyflenwadau tanwydd.

Also, when considering the issue of essential services, will any review include considering essential services in its broadest possible terms? I mentioned at the time the impact that the fuel crisis had on community transport schemes. In my constituency, Brecon and Radnorshire, the dial-a-ride service could not operate. The service provides essential transport links for elderly and disabled people in the community, enabling them to go to buy food and other vital supplies. Can we therefore consider essential services in its broadest possible mix?

Hefyd, wrth ystyried mater y gwasanaethau hanfodol, a fydd unrhyw adolygiad yn ystyried y gwasanaethau hanfodol yn ei ystyr ehangaf posibl? Soniais ar y pryd am yr effaith a gafodd yr argyfwng tanwydd ar gynlluniau trafnidiaeth yn y gymuned. Yn fy etholaeth i, Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed, ni allai’r gwasanaeth dial-a-ride weithredu. Rhydd y gwasanaeth gludiant hanfodol i’r henoed a’r anabl yn y gymuned, gan eu galluogi i fynd i brynu bwyd a chyflenwadau hanfodol eraill. Felly a gawn ystyried y gwasanaethau hanfodol yn eu hystyr ehangaf posibl?

Could we consider how petrol was distributed when the petrol crisis was coming to an end? There was a case in my constituency where the smallest petrol station in a town was supplied, rather than the biggest station. Two pumps were supplied with petrol in a station where there were only a couple of tanks underground, when we could have supplied a petrol station that had eight pumps and larger tanks. The smallest petrol station was given the fuel, rather than a bigger station, which could have eased the supply of petrol to the public.

A allem ystyried sut y cafodd petrol ei ddosbarthu pan oedd yr argyfwng petrol yn dod i ben? Yr oedd enghraifft yn fy etholaeth i lle y cafodd yr orsaf betrol leiaf mewn tref ei chyflenwi, yn hytrach na’r orsaf fwyaf. Cyflenwyd petrol i ddau bwmp mewn gorsaf lle nad oedd ond ychydig o danciau tan ddaear, pan allem fod wedi cyflenwi gorsaf betrol a chanddi wyth o bympiau a thanciau mwy. Yr orsaf betrol leiaf a gafodd y tanwydd, yn hytrach na gorsaf fwy, a allai fod wedi hwysluso cyflenwi petrol i’r cyhoedd.

Finally, and most importantly, when can we expect an announcement by central Government addressing the cause of the crisis—that is, doing something about the high cost of petrol—and, in particular, considering the issues facing rural areas, which are suffering a double whammy? We pay the highest of high petrol taxes and we do not have the ability to use buses or trains to go about our daily lives.

Yn olaf, ac yn bwysicaf oll, pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl cyhoeddiad gan y Llywodraeth ganolog a fydd yn mynd i’r afael ag achos yr argyfwng—hynny yw, sydd yn gweithredu ar gost uchel petrol—ac, yn arbennig, yn ystyried y materion sydd yn wynebu’r ardaloedd gwledig, sydd yn dioddef am ddau reswm? Ni sydd yn talu’r costau uchaf ar drethi petrol uchel ac ni sydd yn y sefyllfa lle na allwn ddefnyddio bysys na threnau yn ein bywyd bob dydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 59

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

You are speaking with two hats on, Kirsty: as a representative of a sparsely populated rural area and as Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee. You are right to point out to everyone—including the fuel protesters, who have completely missed this point—that it is all very well to say that if ambulances with 999 lights on have petrol, everything is fine, when the bulk of essential users do not have blue lamps. These are people such as district nurses, individuals suffering from schizophrenia who go into hospital as day patients to get their tablets and then go home, and carers visiting terminally ill patients in their homes. They need to fill their cars with petrol to be able to go out. You also mentioned services such as dial-a-ride. Getting that point across to the fuel blockaders was difficult. Getting the ambulances working, and the health and social services functioning as they should have been able to, were two entirely different matters. It showed how many health and social service activities are now carried out in the community and not in big institutions serviced by blue-lamp-flashing ambulances doing 50 or 60 miles per hour.

Yr ydych yn siarad gan wisgo dwy het, Kirsty: fel cynrychiolydd ardal wledig amhoblog ac fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Yr ydych yn gywir wrth nodi i bawb—gan gynnwys y protestwyr tanwydd, sydd wedi colli’r pwynt yn gyfan gwbl—na ellir dweud bod popeth yn iawn os oes petrol gan ambiwlansys gyda goleuadau 999 arnynt, lle nad oes gan y rhan fwyaf o’r defnyddwyr hanfodol lampau glas. Dyma’r bobl fel nyrsys ardal, unigolion sydd yn dioddef o sgitsoffrenia sydd yn mynd i’r ysbyty fel cleifion dydd er mwyn cael eu tabledi ac yna’n mynd adref, a chynhalwyr sydd yn ymweld â chleifion sydd â salwch angheuol yn eu cartrefi. Mae angen iddynt hwy lenwi eu ceir â phetrol er mwyn mynd allan. Soniasoch hefyd am wasanaethau fel dial-a-ride. Bu’n anodd sicrhau bod y gwarchaewyr tanwydd yn deall y pwynt hwnnw. Mae sicrhau bod yr ambiwlansys yn gweithio a bod y gwasanaethau iechyd a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn gweithredu fel y dylent, yn ddau beth hollol wahanol. Dangosodd faint o weithgareddau iechyd a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol bellach sydd yn cael eu cyflawni yn y gymuned yn hytrach nag mewn sefydliadau mawr a wasanaethir gan yr ambiwlansys sydd yn teithio ar 50 neu 60 milltir yr awr a’u goleuadau glas yn fflachio.

Kirsty mentioned several points about evaluating what happened and why operations were cancelled. Operations were cancelled because staff could not get to work or individual patients could not get to hospitals. People did not understand that 80 per cent of NHS staff must be at work for it to function normally. It is not only doctors, surgeons and theatre nurses who have to be present for an operation to take place; 80 per cent of staff must be present, otherwise the hospital ceases to function in terms of doing any new work. Getting that point across was difficult.

Crybwyllodd Kirsty sawl pwynt ynglŷn â gwerthuso’r hyn a ddigwyddodd a pham y cafodd llawdriniaethau eu canslo. Canslwyd llawdriniaethau am na allai’r staff gyrraedd y gwaith neu am na allai cleifion unigol gyrraedd yr ysbyty. Nid oedd pobl yn deall bod yn rhaid i 80 y cant o staff yr NHS fod yn y gwaith er mwyn iddo weithredu’n normal. Nid dim ond meddygon, llawfeddygon a nyrsys theatr sydd yn gorfod bod yn bresennol ar gyfer llawdriniaeth, fel arall mae’r ysbyty yn peidio â gweithredu o safbwynt gwneud unrhyw waith newydd. Yr oedd yn anodd cyfleu’r pwynt hwnnw.

Kirsty also mentioned the designation of filling stations. Because that was all new to us, it was difficult for oil companies to supply information to the Department of Trade and Industry to say which filling stations they wanted to designate as ones where essential users, such as district nurses, could get petrol supplies. In one or two cases, they supplied the wrong information, such as when they referred to a station in Anglesey that had closed down seven years before. It is not the Government’s fault. We do not know which filling stations are which. If a station has closed but is still on the oil company’s books, I do not know where the bills have been going for the last seven or eight years. It is difficult, because you are reliant on the industry to have up-to-date information on the location of its filling stations. That might be the reason why small stations rather than big ones were designated when the oil supplies were beginning to filter through again.

Soniodd Kirsty hefyd am ddynodi gorsafoedd petrol. Am fod hyn oll yn newydd inni, yr oedd yn anodd i’r cwmnïau olew roi gwybod i’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant pa orsafoedd petrol yr oeddent am eu dynodi fel y rhai lle y gallai defnyddwyr hanfodol, fel nyrsys ardal, gael cyflenwadau petrol. Mewn un neu ddau achos rhoesant yr wybodaeth anghywir, er enghraifft pan gyfeiriasant at orsaf yn Ynys Môn a oedd wedi cau ers saith mlynedd. Nid y Llywodraeth sydd ar fai. Ni wyddom am y gwahanol orsafoedd petrol. Os yw gorsaf wedi cau ond ei bod ar lyfrau’r cwmni olew o hyd, ni wn ble mae’r biliau wedi mynd am y saith neu wyth mlynedd diwethaf. Mae’n anodd, gan eich bod yn dibynnu ar y diwydiant am yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ynglŷn â lleoliad ei orsafoedd petrol. Efallai mai hwnnw yw’r rheswm pam mai gorsafoedd bach yn hytrach na’r rhai mawr a gafodd eu dynodi pan ddechreuodd y cyflenwadau olew ddod trwodd unwaith eto.

One of our successes was to increase the number of filling stations on the designated filling stations list from about 150 to 200. The DTI did not realise the distance between filling stations and between villages and communities in central Wales. The people in the DTI did not realise how many more filling stations are needed in a rural area to give the same amount of access as was available to them from the middle of London. I believe that many lessons have been learned, but that we can do much better next time. We will evaluate matters, and, if we draw up a report, it will be placed in the Library.

Un o’n llwyddiannau oedd cynyddu nifer y gorsafoedd petrol ar y rhestr o orsafoedd petrol a ddynodwyd o tua 150 i 200. Ni sylweddolai’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant faint o bellter oedd rhwng gorsafoedd petrol a rhwng pentrefi a chymunedau yng nghanolbarth Cymru. Ni sylweddolai’r bobl yn yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant bod angen cymaint mwy o orsafoedd petrol mewn ardal wledig i roi’r un cyfle i gael petrol ag a oedd ar gael iddynt yng nghanol Llundain. Credaf fod llawer o wersi wedi eu dysgu, ond gallwn wneud yn llawer gwell y tro nesaf. Byddwn yn gwerthuso’r materion, ac, os lluniwn adroddiad, caiff ei osod yn y Llyfrgell.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I have had indication of three points of order. It is always helpful if we receive advance warning of points of order. However, the first point of order from David Melding possibly relates to all of our Standing Orders.

Cefais rybudd am dri phwynt o drefn. Mae bob amser o gymorth os cawn rybudd ymlaen llaw o bwyntiau o drefn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r pwynt cyntaf o drefn gan David Melding yn ymwneud â’n holl Reolau Sefydlog o bosibl.

David Melding spoken in English p. 61

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Point of order. Presiding Officer, can you advise us on the validity of the title Deputy First Secretary? Such a post—whose holder would be the second most senior member of the administration—does not appear in Standing Orders.

Pwynt o drefn. Lywydd, a allwch ein cynghori ynglŷn â dilysrwydd y teitl Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd? Nid ymddengys swydd o’r fath—ei deiliad fyddai’r uwch aelod pwysicaf ond un yn y weinyddiaeth—yn y Rheolau Sefydlog.

The leader of the Liberal Democrats has reportedly negotiated a wide-ranging brief for the Deputy First Secretary, including the right to exercise the First Secretary’s functions in times of absence or illness. As there is no reference to it in Standing Orders, how is the post of Deputy First Secretary to be held accountable? Will Assembly Members be able to question, in writing or orally, the Deputy First Secretary qua Deputy First Secretary? Or will we have to make do with questions to the Deputy First Secretary in his capacity as an Assembly Secretary with a subject portfolio?

Bu arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ôl pob sôn yn negodi briff eang i’r Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd, gan gynnwys yr hawl i arfer swyddogaethau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd pan fydd yn absennol neu’n sâl. Gan nad oes unrhyw gyfeiriad ato yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, sut y gall swydd y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd fod yn atebol? A fydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gallu holi, boed yn ysgrifenedig neu ar lafar, y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd fel y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd? Neu a fydd yn rhaid inni fodloni ar y cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad â chyfrifoldeb pwnc?

I realise that it may be the intention that the Deputy First Secretary just appears like a titular bishop without any substantial status in that function. However, if the post of Deputy First Secretary is to have substance, it surely needs to be underpinned in Standing Orders.

Sylweddolaf mai’r bwriad o bosibl yw y bydd y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd yn ymddangos fel esgob teitlog yn unig heb unrhyw statws sylweddol yn y swyddogaeth honno. Fodd bynnag, os bydd swydd y Dirprwy Brif Ysgrifennydd yn un sylweddol, onid oes rhaid ei hategu mewn Rheolau Sefydlog?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 62

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I do not see anyone rising to help me from the Cabinet bench. My immediate response is to say that if this eventuality occurs, I assure you that there are people at this moment in the Presiding Office and the Cabinet Secretariat who are studying all the implications for Standing Orders. I assure you that any changes in the structure of the Government of Wales in this Assembly will be subject to the normal rigours of Standing Orders and to scrutiny. We may be moving into a new situation in terms of the construction of a Government from two parties rather than out of one, but that does not lessen the importance of maintaining the Assembly as the prime focus of our activities and as a location to which all Members of the Government of Wales—whatever their titles—must be responsible.

Ni welaf neb o fainc y Cabinet yn codi i’m helpu. Fy ymateb cyntaf yw dweud y gallaf eich sicrhau, os digwydd hyn, fod pobl yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd ac Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried yr holl oblygiadau ar gyfer y Rheolau Sefydlog. Gallaf eich sicrhau y caiff unrhyw newidiadau yn strwythur Llywodraeth Cymru yn y Cynulliad hwn eu hystyried yn fanwl yn erbyn y Rheolau Sefydlog yn ôl yr arfer a’u harchwilio. Efallai ein bod yn symud i mewn i sefyllfa newydd o ran ffurfio Llywodraeth gan ddwy blaid yn hytrach nag un, ond bydd yr un mor bwysig sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn parhau i fod yn brif ganolbwynt i’n gweithgareddau ac yn lleoliad y mae’n rhaid i bob Aelod o Lywodraeth Cymru—beth bynnag fo eu teitlau—fod yn atebol iddo.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 62

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Point of order. It relates to clarification on procedures. Members highlighted differences between the partnership agreement and ‘Betterwales.com’, which has been adopted by the Assembly following months of public consultation. The First Secretary was uncertain as to whether amendments need to be made to that document. Should that be the case, will those amendments be managed by the same democratic procedures so that everyone in Wales may be given the democratic right to influence policies in Wales in the spirit of true consultation?

Pwynt o drefn. Mae’n ymwneud ag eglurhad o’r gweithdrefnau. Nododd yr Aelodau wahaniaethau rhwng y cytundeb partneriaeth a ‘Gwellcymru.com’, a fabwysiadwyd gan y Cynulliad yn dilyn misoedd o ymgynghori â’r cyhoedd. Yr oedd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ansicr a oes angen gwneud newidiadau i’r ddogfen honno. Os bydd angen gwneud hynny, a gaiff y newidiadau hynny eu rheoli gan yr un gweithdrefnau democrataidd fel y caiff pawb yng Nghymru yr hawl ddemocrataidd i ddylanwadu ar bolisïau yng Nghymru mewn gwir ysbryd ymgynghorol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 62

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I am not sure whether that is a point of order. Many aspects of this issue are budget-related. I said earlier that the partnership arrangement builds on the content of ‘Betterwales.com’ and does not detract from it. One never says never in politics. I could be wrong about a minor detail. I am telling you the broad principle. If you think that you have found something, that is fine but it is not really a point of order. You should write to me. If it is a budgetary matter, Edwina will deal with it. If it is a policy matter, I will deal with it. I assure you that there is no attempt to take away from any of the agreed policies of this Assembly, which approve ‘Betterwales.com’. That is my policy.

Nid wyf yn siŵr ai pwynt o drefn yw hynny. Mae llawer o agweddau ar y mater hwn yn ymwneud â chyllideb. Dywedais gynt fod y trefniant partneriaeth yn adeiladu ar gynnwys ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ac nad yw’n amharu arno. Peidier byth â dweud byth mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Efallai fy mod yn anghywir ynglŷn â manylyn bach. Dywedaf wrthych am yr egwyddor gyffredinol. Os credwch eich bod wedi dod o hyd i rywbeth, mae hynny’n iawn ond nid pwynt o drefn ydyw mewn gwirionedd. Dylech ysgrifennu ataf. Os mai mater cyllidebol ydyw, bydd Edwina yn ymdrin ag ef. Os mai mater polisi ydyw, fi fydd yn ymdrin ag ef. Gallaf eich sicrhau nad oes unrhyw ymgais i amharu ar unrhyw un o bolisïau’r Cynulliad hwn y cytunwyd arnynt, sydd yn cymeradwyo ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Dyna fy mholisi.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I am grateful to the First Secretary for his assistance. As far as the Office of the Presiding Officer is concerned, any amendments to any policy documents that have already been adopted by the Assembly will be subject to motions and amendments in a Plenary session in the normal way. Whether or not there are further consultations is a matter for the Government of Wales and not for me. In the spirit of open government, I am sure that any Government in this Assembly, be it a partnership government or any other kind, would want to ensure that there is full openness.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am ei gymorth. Cyn belled ag y bo Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn y cwestiwn, bydd unrhyw newidiadau i unrhyw ddogfennau polisi a fabwysiadwyd eisoes gan y Cynulliad yn ddarostyngedig i gynigion a gwelliannau mewn Cyfarfod Llawn yn ôl yr arfer. Pa un a fydd ymgynghoriadau pellach yn fater i Lywodraeth Cymru ac nid i mi. Mewn ysbryd llywodraeth agored, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai unrhyw Lywodraeth yn y Cynulliad hwn, boed yn llywodraeth bartneriaeth neu unrhyw fath arall o lywodraeth, am sicrhau ei bod yn gwbl agored.

Val Feld spoken in English p. 63

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Point of order. I ask the Presiding Officer to reconsider the position of points of order during questions about statements. David Davies has just made a long statement on his political views without declaring an interest. My understanding is that he is a director of a haulage company run by his family. Much of what he said could be construed to have a certain amount of self-interest. I am concerned that, when I signalled to you, you said that these matters come at the end of questions. However, by that time, the discussion will be gone. If we are to try to take a hold on people’s declaration of interest, we need to be able to do it at an appropriate time. If we do not, it will not do the reputation of the Assembly much good. Will you review that?

Pwynt o drefn. Gofynnaf i’r Llywydd ailystyried safle pwyntiau o drefn yn ystod cwestiynau ar ddatganiadau. Mae David Davies newydd wneud datganiad hir ar ei farn wleidyddol heb ddatgan buddiant. Deallaf ei fod yn gyfarwyddwr cwmni cludo nwyddau a reolir gan ei deulu. Gellid dehongli bod llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd yn cynnwys rhywfaint o hunan-fudd. Yr wyf yn pryderu, pan dynnais eich sylw, i chi ddweud bod y materion hyn yn dod ar ddiwedd y cwestiynau. Fodd bynnag, erbyn hynny, bydd y drafodaeth ar ben. Os ydym am geisio ystyried datganiad buddiant pobl, mae angen inni allu gwneud hynny ar yr adeg briodol. Os na wnawn hynny, ni fydd yn gwneud lles i enw’r Cynulliad. A wnewch adolygu hynny?

David Davies spoken in English p. 63

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Further to that point of order. I can clarify that point easily. When I was elected to the Assembly, I renounced all links with any previous company for which I worked. I have drawn no salaries from any of the companies since my election. I have experience of haulage companies having worked in the industry for 10 years. However, there is no reason for me to declare an interest. I understand the Member’s concerns but it is unfortunate that, unlike many members of her own party, members of this party had real jobs in the real world before we were elected. As a result, when we speak on different issues, we have direct practical experience of them rather than the non-experience that is so commonplace on her side of the Chamber.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn. Gallaf egluro’r pwynt hwnnw’n hawdd. Pan gefais fy ethol i’r Cynulliad, ymwrthodais â’r holl gysylltiadau ag unrhyw gwmni yr wyf wedi gweithio iddo gynt. Nid wyf wedi cael fy nhalu gan unrhyw un o’r cwmnïau ers imi gael fy ethol. Mae gennyf brofiad o gwmnïau cludo nwyddau ar ôl gweithio yn y diwydiant am 10 mlynedd. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw reswm imi ddatgan buddiant. Deallaf bryderon yr Aelod ond mae’n anffodus, yn wahanol i lawer o aelodau o’i phlaid, bod gan aelodau o’r blaid hon swyddi go iawn yn y byd go iawn cyn cael ein hethol. O ganlyniad, pan siaradwn ar wahanol faterion, mae gennym brofiad ymarferol uniongyrchol ohonynt yn hytrach na’r diffyg profiad sydd mor gyffredin ar ei hochr hi o’r Siambr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I am sorry that you spoilt, towards the end, what started as a clear statement. Members themselves are responsible for declarations of interest. If Members are in contravention of that, it is a standards matter.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf ichi ddifetha, tua’r diwedd, yr hyn a ddechreuodd fel datganiad eglur. Yr Aelodau eu hunain sydd yn gyfrifol o ran datgan eu buddiannau. Os bydd yr Aelodau’n mynd yn groes i hynny, mater yn ymwneud â safonau fydd hynny.

On the matter of when I allow points of order, I have suffered lengthy points of order in another place and I am keen to ensure that they are raised in an orderly manner in the Assembly. I prefer to take them outwith the immediate business rather than have it interrupted and diverted as has often been the case in other places that I could mention. That will continue to be my practice until I am fully persuaded otherwise.

O ran y mater ynghylch pryd y byddaf yn caniatáu pwyntiau o drefn, dioddefais bwyntiau o drefn hirfaith mewn lle arall ac yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau y cânt eu codi mewn modd trefnus yn y Cynulliad. Gwell gennyf eu cymryd y tu allan i’r busnes o dan sylw yn hytrach na thorri ar ei draws a thynnu sylw oddi wrtho fel sydd wedi digwydd mewn mannau eraill y gallwn eu crybwyll. Bydd hynny’n parhau i fod yn arfer gennyf nes y caf fy narbwyllo fel arall.

Alun Cairns has a point of order.

Mae gan Alun Cairns bwynt o drefn.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 64

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Thank you, First Secretary.

Diolch, Brif Ysgrifennydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I am the Presiding Officer, not the First Secretary.

Y Llywydd wyf fi, nid y Prif Ysgrifennydd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 64

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Forgive me, I am somewhat confused by all the changes taking place in the pact at the moment.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, yr wyf yn drysu braidd ar ôl yr holl newidiadau sydd yn digwydd yn y cytundeb ar hyn o bryd.

I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 6 relating to Assembly business. During the recess, the First Secretary made an announcement on BAE Systems based at Broughton. Although we welcome the contents of the speech, I disapprove of the fact that he made the announcement at the Labour Party conference and not in this Chamber. It would have been an important topic of discussion for the Economic Development Committee and it would have raised many questions and statements in the Chamber. The First Secretary should have made that statement in this Chamber.

Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6 sydd yn ymwneud â busnes y Cynulliad. Yn ystod y toriad, gwnaeth y Prif Ysgrifennydd gyhoeddiad ar BAE Systems ym Mrychdyn. Er ein bod yn croesawu cynnwys yr araith, nid wyf yn cyd-fynd â’r ffaith iddo wneud y cyhoeddiad yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur ac nid yn y Siambr hon. Byddai wedi bod yn bwnc trafod pwysig i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd a byddai wedi codi llawer o gwestiynau a datganiadau yn y Siambr. Dylai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd fod wedi gwneud y datganiad hwnnw yn y Siambr hon.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 65

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I regret any perception that Alun may have of any discourtesy, either to him or to the Assembly as a whole. The background that he describes is accurate and I would have preferred to have reached a decision and to have announced it to the Assembly in the course of its business, but—and this is nothing to do with me—it so happens that the decision was made during the week in the run-up to the Labour Party conference. I had hoped to make the announcement in Cardiff or in Wales, but the company insisted that we finalise the decision at around 4.50 p.m. on Friday night. The company wanted time to arrange its communication channels and suggested that the announcement be made on Sunday. By pure coincidence, I was making my speech to the Labour Party conference on Sunday—[Laughter.] I said at the time that nobody would believe me, but it happens to be the truth. The announcement was not held back until Sunday at my behest. We reached the decision on the Friday and the company wanted a few days to sort out its communication channels. I cannot help that. I naturally took advantage of the kind offer from BAE Systems and I was told that I was to make my conference speech on the Sunday. That is the truth, although I realise it may take the next 73 and a half years for Alun Cairns to be persuaded of that.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf os yw Alun yn teimlo imi fod yn anghwrtais, naill ai iddo ef neu’r Cynulliad cyfan. Mae’r cefndir a ddisgrifiodd yn gywir a byddai’n well gennyf pe byddwn wedi gwneud penderfyniad a’i gyhoeddi i’r Cynulliad yn ystod ei weithrediadau, ond—ac nid myfi sydd yn gyfrifol am hynny—fel y mae’n digwydd, gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwn yn yr wythnos cyn cynhadledd y Blaid Lafur. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio gwneud cyhoeddiad yng Nghaerdydd neu yng Nghymru, ond mynnodd y cwmni ein bod yn gwneud y penderfyniad terfynol tua 4.50 p.m. nos Wener. Yr oedd y cwmni am gael amser i drefnu ei sianeli cyfathrebu gan awgrymu bod y cyhoeddiad yn cael ei wneud ddydd Sul. Fel cyd-ddigwyddiad llwyr, yr oeddwn yn gwneud fy araith i’r Blaid Lafur ddydd Sul—[Chwerthin.] Dywedais ar y pryd na fyddai neb yn fy nghredu, ond mae’n digwydd bod yn wir. Ni ohiriwyd y cyhoeddiad tan ddydd Sul ar fy nghais i. Gwnaethom benderfyniad ddydd Gwener ac yr oedd y cwmni am gael ychydig ddyddiau i drefnu ei sianeli cyfathrebu. Ni allaf wneud dim ynglŷn â hynny. Wrth gwrs, achubais ar y cyfle i dderbyn awgrym caredig BAE Systems a dywedwyd wrthyf fy mod yn gwneud fy araith i’r gynhadledd ddydd Sul. Dyna’r gwir, er fy mod yn sylweddoli y gallai gymryd y 73 mlynedd a hanner nesaf i ddarbwyllo Alun Cairns o hynny.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 65

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

It will take longer than that for Rhodri to persuade other Assembly Members as well.

Bydd yn cymryd mwy o amser na hynny i Rhodri ddarbwyllo Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad hefyd.

It was an important announcement on a matter that was carefully considered by this Assembly. In the past, you have made statements to the Assembly on the grant to BAE Systems when you were not in a position to do so. However, when the decision was made, you did not make a statement to the Assembly.

Yr oedd yn gyhoeddiad pwysig ar fater a ystyriwyd yn ofalus gan y Cynulliad hwn. Yn y gorffennol, gwnaethoch ddatganiadau i’r Cynulliad ar y grant i BAE Systems pan nad oeddech mewn sefyllfa i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, pan wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad, ni wnaethoch ddatganiad i’r Cynulliad.

Presiding Officer, would it be appropriate to ask the First Secretary, through you, to give the Assembly a report on the reasons why he made that decision so that it is on the record here and has not simply been used for party political purposes?

Lywydd, a fyddai’n briodol gofyn i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd, drwyddoch chi, roi adroddiad i’r Cynulliad ar y rhesymau pam y gwnaeth y penderfyniad hwnnw er mwyn ei gofnodi yma ac fel nad yw ond wedi ei ddefnyddio at ddibenion gwleidydda pleidiol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 66

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Further to that point of order, will Ieuan accept that had we reached an agreement—since it involved both sides—and had I made an announcement on the Wednesday or Thursday, he would have accused me of trying to upstage the Plaid Cymru party conference, which was held on those days? I thought that we were close to making a decision on the Wednesday, then something went wrong on the Thursday, but the decision was finally made late on Friday. The company did not want the information to be released on Friday night, although rumours were obviously flying around, as I saw Ieuan giving a press conference in the Plaid Cymru party conference on Saturday morning.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, a fydd Ieuan yn derbyn inni lunio cytundeb—gan iddo gynnwys y naill ochr a’r llall—a phe bawn wedi gwneud cyhoeddiad ddydd Mercher neu ddydd Iau, byddai wedi fy nghyhuddo o geisio tynnu’r sylw oddi wrth gynhadledd Plaid Cymru, a gynhaliwyd ar y diwrnodau hynny? Credais ein bod yn nesáu at wneud penderfyniad ddydd Mercher, yna aeth rhywbeth o’i le ddydd Iau, ond gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad yn y diwedd yn hwyr ddydd Gwener. Nid oedd y cwmni am i’r wybodaeth gael ei rhyddhau nos Wener, er bod sïon ar led wrth reswm, gan imi weld Ieuan yn trefnu cynhadledd i’r wasg yng nghynhadledd Plaid Cymru fore Sadwrn.

When there is a two-handed negotiation, I cannot be responsible for the exact timing of decisions. It was not at my behest that the decision was announced on the Sunday. I am happy to go beyond that to comply with what Ieuan requested by making an announcement to the Assembly and putting it on the record, but I will not do so today.

Pan fydd dwy ochr yn negodi, ni allaf fod yn atebol am union amseru’r penderfyniadau. Nid ar fy nghais i y cyhoeddwyd y penderfyniad ddydd Sul. Bodlonaf fynd y tu hwnt i hynny er mwyn cydymffurfio â’r hyn a ofynnodd Ieuan drwy wneud cyhoeddiad i’r Cynulliad gan ei nodi ar y cofnod, ond ni wnaf hyn heddiw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I am grateful to the First Secretary for a vindication of the statement. The important principle is that statements should be made in the first instance to the Assembly whenever possible. It is not unusual for Ministers to make statements of policy at party conferences, whatever the motives may be. In this case, the First Secretary has made it clear that he intends to repeat the statement in the Chamber, so there will be an opportunity for the Assembly to ask questions.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am gyfiawnhad o’r datganiad. Yr egwyddor bwysig yw mai i’r Cynulliad y dylai datganiadau gael eu gwneud yn y lle cyntaf lle bynnag y bo hynny’n bosibl. Nid yw’n anarferol i’r Gweinidogion wneud datganiadau ar bolisi mewn cynadleddau pleidiau, beth bynnag fo’r cymhelliad. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi nodi’n eglur ei fod yn bwriadu ail-adrodd y datganiad yn y Siambr, felly bydd cyfle i’r Cynulliad holi cwestiynau.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 66

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I can say with confidence that my business statement will only be made to the Assembly and will not be made anywhere else. I start by informing Members of changes to this week’s business. I have withdrawn the Seeds (National Lists of Varieties) Regulations 2000 that were scheduled for consideration today, for the Assembly to further consult colleagues and lawyers in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and in the Scottish Parliament on the point raised by Friends of the Earth. I reported that to the Business Committee this morning. I intend to table these regulations as soon as possible—probably next week. On Thursday morning I shall seek to propose a procedural motion under Standing Order No. 6.16 to continue the comprehensive spending review debate, as requested by Assembly Members when we reconvened after the summer constituency weeks. To allow time for this debate, I have postponed the debate scheduled for Thursday on library policy. I have also informed the Business Committee this morning that there will be three Cabinet statements on Thursday. The First Secretary will be making two statements: the first on the Wales Millennium Centre and the second on the Arts Council for Wales. A statement by the Finance Secretary on asylum seekers will follow.

Gallaf ddweud yn hyderus mai dim ond i’r Cynulliad y byddaf yn gwneud fy natganiad busnes i ac nid mewn unrhyw le arall. Dechreuaf drwy hysbysu’r Aelodau o’r newidiadau i’r busnes yr wythnos hon. Tynnais Reoliadau Hadau (Rhestr Genedlaethol o Amrywiadau) 2000 a oedd i’w hystyried heddiw yn ôl, er mwyn i’r Cynulliad ymgynghori ymhellach gyda chydweithwyr a chyfreithwyr yn y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a Senedd yr Alban ar y pwynt a gododd Cyfeillion y Ddaear. Nodais hynny i’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma. Bwriadaf gyflwyno’r rheoliadau mor fuan â phosibl—yr wythnos nesaf fwy na thebyg. Fore dydd Iau byddaf yn ceisio cynnig cynnig trefniadol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16 i barhau â’r ddadl ar yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, yn ôl cais Aelodau’r Cynulliad pan ddychwelsom ar ôl wythnosau etholaeth yr haf. Er mwyn caniatáu amser i’r ddadl hon, gohiriais y ddadl a drefnwyd ar gyfer Dydd Iau ar bolisïau ynglŷn â’r llyfrgell. Hysbysais y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma hefyd y bydd tri datganiad gan y Cabinet ddydd Iau. Bydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gwneud dau ddatganiad: y datganiad cyntaf ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru a’r ail ar Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Bydd datganiad gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid ar geiswyr lloches yn dilyn.

I now turn to the three-week period covered by the business statement. On Tuesday 17 October, there will be two minority party debates proposed by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. On Thursday 19 October, there will be a motion to approve the local government commencement Order and a debate on the results of the consultation on the local government spending assessment formula. Business on Tuesday 24 October will include a Conservative minority party debate and a debate on the Care Standards Act 2000. This debate will provide an opportunity to discuss the new primary legislation that will give the National Assembly new statutory duties to regulate social and health care in Wales. On Thursday 16 October, there will be a motion to approve the Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2000, a motion to note the draft budget and a debate on the annual report of the Welsh administration ombudsman. On Tuesday 31 October, the Assembly will consider the Audit Committee’s 12-month report and the determination on Members’ fees and allowances. Business on Thursday 2 November will include a debate on youth policy. I will also be scheduling a debate on the motion tabled by Brian Hancock under part 7 of Standing Order No. 22. Brian was successful in our version of the Private Member’s Bill. Subject to the agreement of Plaid Cymru and Brian, I propose that that debate take place on 24 October. I will confirm that in my business statement next week.

Trof yn awr at y cyfnod o dair wythnos a gwmpesir gan y datganiad busnes. Ddydd Mawrth 17 Hydref, bydd dwy ddadl plaid leiafrifol a gynigir gan Blaid Cymru a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Ddydd Iau 19 Hydref, bydd cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn cychwyn llywodraeth leol a dadl ar ganlyniadau’r ymgynghoriad ar fformwla asesu gwariant llywodraeth leol. Bydd y busnes ddydd Mawrth 24 Hydref yn cynnwys dadl plaid leiafrifol y Ceidwadwyr a dadl ar Ddeddf Safonau Gofal 2000. Bydd y ddadl hon yn rhoi’r cyfle i drafod y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol newydd a fydd yn rhoi dyletswyddau statudol newydd i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i reoleiddio gofal cymdeithasol a gofal iechyd yng Nghymru. Ddydd Iau 16 Hydref, bydd cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Cynlluniau Effeithlonrwydd Ynni Cartref (Cymru) 2000, cynnig i nodi’r gyllideb ddrafft a dadl ar adroddiad blynyddol ombwdsmon gweinyddiaeth Cymru. Ddydd Mawrth 31 Hydref, bydd y Cynulliad yn ystyried adroddiad 12 mis y Pwyllgor Archwilio a’r penderfyniad ynglŷn â ffïoedd a lwfansau’r Aelodau. Ar ddydd Iau 2 Tachwedd bydd dadl ar bolisi ieuenctid. Byddaf hefyd yn trefnu dadl ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd gan Brian Hancock o dan ran 7 o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22. Yr oedd Brian yn llwyddiannus o ran ein fersiwn o Fesur yr Aelod Preifat. Ar yr amod y bydd Plaid Cymru a Brian yn cytuno, cynigiaf gynnal y ddadl ar 24 Hydref. Cadarnhaf hynny yn fy natganiad busnes yr wythnos nesaf.

On the advice of the Business Committee this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer has determined, in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following items of subordinate legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee: the Education (Exclusion from School) (Prescribed Periods) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000; the School Government (Terms of Reference) (Wales) Regulations; the National Health Service Bodies and Local Authorities Partnership Arrangements (Wales) 2000; the Health Act 1999 (Commencement No. 3) (Wales) Order 2000 and the Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2000. As previously, I will arrange for a copy of this statement to be put on the intranet and the internet later today.

Yn dilyn cyngor y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, na fydd angen cyfeirio’r eitemau canlynol o is-ddeddfwriaeth at Bwyllgor Pwnc: Rheoliadau Addysg (Gwahardd o’r Ysgol) (Cyfnodau Rhagnodedig) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000; Rheoliadau Llywodraethu Ysgolion (Cylch Gwaith) (Cymru) 2000; Rheoliadau Trefniadau Partneriaeth Cyrff Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol ac Awdurdodau Lleol (Cymru) 2000; Gorchymyn Deddf Iechyd 1999 (Cychwyn Rhif 3) (Cymru) 2000 a’r Rheoliadau’r Cynlluniau Effeithiolrwydd Ynni Cartref (Cymru) 2000. Fel y nodwyd gynt, trefnaf i gopi o’r datganiad hwn gael ei roi ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn nes ymlaen heddiw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 68

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Are there any objections to the business statement?

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Yes.

Oes.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 68

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Are there 10 objections? I see that there are. Under Standing Order No. 5.4, I will allow the Business Secretary to propose the business statement and I will then allow one Member from each group to respond before calling a vote.

A oes 10 gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 5.4, caniataf i’r Trefnydd gynnig y datganiad busnes a wedyn caniataf i un Aelod o bob grŵp ymateb cyn cynnal pleidlais.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 68

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I call Jocelyn Davies.

Galwaf ar Jocelyn Davies.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 69

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

The objection came from the Conservatives.

Oddi wrth y Ceidwadwyr y daeth y gwrthwynebiad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

Then I call Nick Bourne.

Yna galwaf ar Nick Bourne.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 69

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

They do not have an objection.

Nid oes ganddynt wrthwynebiad.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 69

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

We certainly do have an objection; we have many. I heard that business for today had been changed on the radio at 7 a.m., before the Business Committee had met. I also heard that it was an Assembly decision, which surprised me more than a little. I listened to what the Business Secretary had to say about listening to the Friends of the Earth’s legal advice with incredulity. Its legal advice has never bothered you in the past, and it has been available for a long time. We all know why this has been shelved. It is because the Liberal Democrats were going to stick to their principles for once and vote against it, and you were going to be defeated. However, this has not got you off the hook, because Peter Black has already said that the Liberals will vote against it anyway, as has Mick Bates. Mick is not here to confirm that, but we know that the Liberals will vote against it anyway. It is not much of a coalition, is it? You might as well have gone ahead with the business. Is not the real reason that this has been dropped that you knew that you would not get it adopted today? This has nothing to do with Friends of the Earth. The suggestion that it has is amazing.

Yn sicr mae gennym wrthwynebiad; mae gennym lawer. Clywais fod y busnes heddiw wedi ei newid ar y radio am 7 a.m., cyn i’r Pwyllgor Busnes gyfarfod. Clywais hefyd mai penderfyniad y Cynulliad ydoedd, a oedd yn fy synnu braidd. Clywais yr hyn a ddywedodd y Trefnydd ynglŷn â gwrando ar gyngor cyfreithiol Cyfeillion y Ddaear heb fedru ei gredu. Nid ydych wedi rhoi sylw i’w gyngor cyfreithiol yn y gorffennol, ac mae wedi bod ar gael ers tro. Gwyddom oll pam eich bod wedi rhoi’r gorau iddo. Oherwydd bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mynd i lynu at eu hegwyddorion am unwaith a phleidleisio yn ei erbyn, a’ch bod yn mynd i golli’r bleidlais. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hyn wedi arbed eich croen, gan fod Peter Black eisoes wedi dweud y bydd y Rhyddfrydwyr yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn beth bynnag, fel y dywedodd Mick Bates. Nid yw Mick yn bresennol i gadarnhau hynny, ond gwyddom y bydd y Rhyddfrydwyr yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn beth bynnag. Nid yw’n fawr o glymblaid, onid ydyw? Cystal â chi fod wedi mynd ymlaen â’r busnes. Onid y gwir reswm pam bod hynny wedi ei ddileu yw y gwyddech na fyddech yn llwyddo iddo gael ei fabwysiadu heddiw? Nid yw hyn a wnelo dim â Chyfeillion y Ddaear. Mae’r awgrym ei fod yn un rhyfeddol.

The other point, which could be cleared up quickly, is about the minority party debate. I trust that the Liberal Democrats’ minority party debate will not go ahead unless the Builth Wells meeting votes against this deal. If it votes in favour, the Liberal Democrats are no longer a minority party, but part of the shabby and shoddy administration that we have to face every day.

Mae’r pwynt arall, y gellid ei egluro’n hawdd, yn ymwneud â’r ddadl plaid leiafrifol. Hyderaf na fydd dadl plaid leiafrifol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mynd rhagddi oni fydd y cyfarfod yn Llanfair ym Muallt yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig. Os bydd o’i blaid, ni fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn blaid leiafrifol bellach, ond yn rhan o’r weinyddiaeth ddilewyrch a di-nod sydd yn rhaid inni ei hwynebu bob dydd.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 70

Mae Plaid Cymru hefyd yn gwrthwynebu penderfyniad y Llywodraeth heddiw i ohirio unwaith eto y bleidlais ar gymeradwyo’r rheoliadau hadau. Gwnaeth y Cynulliad hwn ddatganiad polisi unfrydol ym mis Mai ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig. Dylem fesur y rheoliadau a’u cymeradwyo neu eu gwrthod yn erbyn y datganiad polisi hwnnw. Dylai’r rheoliadau fod yn gydnaws â pholisi’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Ar hyn o bryd, maent yn bell o wneud hynny. Yn wir, mae’r rheoliadau yn caniatáu llawer mwy o hyblygrwydd ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig na gofynion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Fel y siaradwr cyntaf, nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig fod y rhesymau a roddwyd heddiw dros ohirio yn rhai dilys a digonol. Yn ôl Cyfeillion y Ddaear, nid oes cysylltiad diweddar wedi bod rhyngddo a’r Llywodraeth.

Plaid Cymru also opposes the Government’s decision today to once again defer the vote on approving the seeds regulations. This Assembly made a unanimous policy statement in May on genetically modified crops. We should measure and approve or reject the regulations against that policy statement. The regulations should conform to the National Assembly’s policy. At the moment, they are far from doing so. Indeed, the regulations allow much more flexibility on genetically modified crops than the European Union’s requirements. Like the first speaker, I am not convinced that the reasons given today for the deferment are valid and adequate. According to the Friends of the Earth, there has been no recent contact between it and the Government.

Yr wyf yn amheus, felly, a fydd y rheoliadau a fydd yn ôl ger ein bron, yr wythnos nesaf o bosibl, wedi’u newid mewn unrhyw ffordd. Ai’r unig beth a fydd wedi newid erbyn yr wythnos nesaf fydd y glymblaid rhwng y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Llywodraeth?

I am doubtful, therefore, as to whether the regulations that will come back before us, possibly next week, will have changed in any way. Will the only thing that will have changed by next week be the coalition between the Liberal Democrats and the Government?

Y prawf cyntaf ar deyrngarwch y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol fydd pan gynhelir y bleidlais ar y rheoliadau hyn. Nid oeddynt yn barod i wynebu’r prawf hwnnw heddiw. A ddylai agenda’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—cwestiwn i chi, o bosibl, Lywydd yw hwn—gael ei lunio ar yr egwyddor o osgoi embaras i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol?

The first test of the Liberal Democrats’ loyalty will be when the vote is held on these regulations. They were not prepared to face that test today. Should the National Assembly’s agenda—this is a question for you, perhaps, Presiding Officer—be drawn up on the principle of avoiding embarrassing the Liberal Democrats?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 70

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

Setting aside the new Conservative-Plaid Cymru coalition, which clearly puts Plaid Cymru in the Conservative Party’s pocket, will you confirm that there are currently four sets of legal advice on this matter, which set out at least two different opinions, and that not only the advice from the Office of the Counsel General—the National Assembly administration’s lawyers, rather—but also, I gather, the Presiding Officer’s legal advice, are similar. Friends of the Earth has a different opinion. Would you confirm that there is not one clear line in the legal advice at present? Would you also confirm what the timetable will need to be for the reintroduction of this?

Gan roi’r glymblaid newydd rhwng y Ceidwadwyr-Plaid Cymru o’r neilltu, sydd yn bendant yn rhoi Plaid Cymru ym mhoced y Blaid Geidwadol, a wnewch gadarnhau bod pedair set o gyngor cyfreithiol ar y mater hwn, sydd yn nodi o leiaf ddwy farn wahanol, a bod cyngor nid yn unig o Swyddfa’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol—sef cyfreithwyr gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn hytrach—ond hefyd, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallais, gyngor cyfreithiol y Llywydd, yn debyg. Mae gan Gyfeillion y Ddaear farn wahanol. A wnewch gadarnhau nad oes un ddadl eglur yn y cyngor cyfreithiol ar hyn o bryd? A wnewch hefyd gadarnhau beth fyddai’r amserlen ar gyfer ailgyflwyno hyn?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 71

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

It is unusual, considering that we have been discussing partnership agreements and coalition, that here we have the forces of conservatism united. I suspect that, just as in the Vale of Glamorgan, where Plaid Cymru is propping up a Tory administration in local government, we have here the forces of Conservatism in an unholy alliance.

Mae’n anarferol, o ystyried inni drafod cytundebau partneriaeth a chlymblaid, bod gennym rymoedd ceidwadaeth yn gytûn. Yr wyf yn amau, yn union fel ym Mro Morgannwg, lle mae Plaid Cymru yn cynnal gweinyddiaeth Dorïaidd mewn llywodraeth leol, bod gennym rymoedd Ceidwadaeth yma mewn cyngrair anfad.

I am pleased to see Nick sitting in his seat. I am glad that he has not been forced to sit in the milling area to watch our proceedings on a monitor. Some colleagues may not know that Nick was unfortunate enough to be snubbed by his party leader twice at its conference. [Interruption.]

Mae’n dda gennyf weld bod Nick yn eistedd yn ei sedd. Yr wyf yn falch na chafodd ei orfodi i eistedd yn y man ymgynnull er mwyn gwylio ein trafodion ar fonitor. Efallai nad yw rhai cyd-Aelodau yn gwybod i Nick fod mor anffodus â chael ei sennu ddwywaith gan arweinydd ei blaid yn ystod y gynhadledd. [Torri ar draws.]

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 71

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

At least he was there. [Laughter.]

O leiaf yr oedd yno.[Chwerthin.]

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 71

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I was there.

Yr oeddwn innau yno.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde—to be snubbed by your party leader once may be unfortunate; to be snubbed twice shows remarkably good judgment on behalf of your party leader.

Gan aralleirio Oscar Wilde—gall cael eich sennu unwaith gan arweinydd eich plaid fod yn anffodus, ond mae cael eich sennu ddwywaith yn dangos doethineb hynod ar ran arweinydd eich plaid.

I reported my intentions in terms of scheduling business to the Business Committee this morning, which was the first time I had discussed it with anybody. I do not know how the information reached the news programmes; it certainly did not come from me. In terms of the minority party debate, as I said in the Business Committee this morning, depending on the vote of the Liberal Democrats at their special conference at the weekend, the result of their debate may determine whether the debate is tabled next week. I am sure that your business manager will have told you what I said this morning.

Nodais fy mwriad o ran trefnu’r busnes i’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, sef yr adeg gyntaf imi ei drafod ag unrhyw un. Ni wn sut y cyrhaeddodd yr wybodaeth y rhaglenni newyddion; yn sicr nid myfi a oedd yn gyfrifol am hynny. O ran y ddadl plaid leiafrifol, fel y dywedais yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, gan ddibynnu ar bleidlais y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn eu cynhadledd arbennig dros y penwythnos, efallai y bydd canlyniad eu dadl yn pennu a gaiff y ddadl ei chyflwyno yr wythnos nesaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr i’ch trefnydd ddweud wrthych am yr hyn a ddywedais y bore yma.

I agreed to return to Elin’s point about legislation, and I give the same commitment to Jenny. In my business statement I said that I would reschedule it at the earliest possible opportunity, provided that we are able to resolve the complex legal issues, in which my colleague, Carwyn Jones, has been involved. If those can be resolved with MAFF and our Scottish parliamentary colleagues, I will do so at the earliest opportunity, and if possible, during Plenary next Tuesday or Thursday.

Cytunais ddychwelyd at bwynt Elin ynglŷn â’r ddeddfwriaeth, a rhoddaf yr un ymrwymiad i Jenny. Yn fy natganiad busnes, dywedais y byddwn yn ei aildrefnu ar y cyfle cyntaf posibl, ar yr amod y gallwn ddatrys y materion cyfreithiol cymhleth, y mae fy nghyd-aelod Cabinet, Carwyn Jones, wedi bod yn ymwneud â hwy. Os gellid datrys y rhain gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a’n cyd-aelodau yn Senedd yr Alban, gwnaf hynny ar y cyfle cyntaf posibl, ac os bydd modd, yn ystod y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Mawrth neu ddydd Iau nesaf.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 72

Motion Andrew Davies p. 72

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 72

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 72

Pwynt o drefn. Hoffwn glywed gennych ai cyfle yw’r datganiad busnes i’r Trefnydd ymateb i gwestiynau sydd yn codi, ynteu i wneud araith gynadleddol. Dywedodd iddo fynychu cynhadledd ei blaid ond efallai na chafodd gyfle i wneud araith, felly gwnaeth hynny yn y Cynulliad yn lle. Ai dyna yw pwrpas y datganiad busnes?

Point of order. I would like to hear from you whether the business statement is an opportunity for the Business Secretary to respond to questions asked, or to make a conference speech. He said that he attended his party’s conference, but perhaps he did not have an opportunity to make a speech, therefore he has done so in the Assembly instead. Is that the purpose of the business statement?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 73

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 73

Wrth ymateb i’r hyn nad oedd mewn gwirionedd yn bwynt o drefn, tynnaf sylw Rhodri Glyn at Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 5.3, 5.4 a 5.4A—yr wyf yn sicr bod copi o’i flaen—sydd yn ymwneud â’r datganiad busnes. Mae dau ddull o drin y datganiad busnes. Yn gyntaf, gellir gwrthod y datganiad busnes, fel a ddigwyddodd heddiw. Yn y sefyllfa honno, mae gan y Trefnydd yr hawl i ymateb i ddadl fer a chryno, gyda chynrychiolydd o’r pedair plaid. Yn ail, pan na cheir gwrthwynebiad, caiff y Trefnydd gyfle i ateb cwestiynau. Yr oedd y Trefnydd yn gywir—materion iddo yntau, nid y Gadair, yw cynnwys ei areithiau a safon ei jôcs. Yr oedd y Trefnydd mewn trefn yn ystod y broses a ddigwyddodd.

In responding to what was not in effect a point of order, I draw Rhodri Glyn’s attention to Standing Orders Nos. 5.3, 5.4 and 5.4A—I am sure he has a copy in front of him—which relate to the business statement. There are two methods for dealing with the business statement. First, the business statement can be rejected, as happened today. In that situation, the Business Secretary has the right to respond to a short and concise debate with representatives from the four parties. Secondly, when there is no objection to the business statement, the Business Secretary has the opportunity to answer questions. The Business Secretary was right—the contents of his speeches and the standard of his jokes are matters for him, not the Chair. The Business Secretary was in order during the process that occurred.

Newidiadau i’r Rheolau Sefydlog

Changes to Standing Orders

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 73

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 73

Atgoffaf Aelodau fod rhaid cael mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair i gymeradwyo’r newidiadau i’r Rheolau Sefydlog.

I remind Members that we must have a two-thirds majority in order to approve the changes to Standing Orders.

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 73

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 74

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Standing Order No. 6.5

Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5

At the end, following ‘reports submitted by committees’, add

Ar y diwedd, ar ôl ‘adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan y pwyllgorau pwnc’, ychwaneger

Motions proposing debates on reports submitted by subject committees may not be amended.

Ni chaniateir i gynigion sy’n cynnig dadleuon ar adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan y pwyllgorau pwnc gael eu gwella.

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 74

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Standing Order No. 6.37

Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.37

Delete ii and insert

Dileer ii gan fewnosod

(ii) An Assembly Secretary, or a Member nominated by the Assembly Secretary with the prior consent of the Presiding Officer, will respond; and.

(ii) Bydd Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad, neu Aelod a enwebir gan Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad, gyda chydsyniad y Llywydd ymlaen llaw, yn ymateb; a.

Standing Order No. 22.58

Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.58

Delete the final sentence, commencing ‘Such an application…’.

Dileer y frawddeg derfynol, yn dechrau ‘Bydd y cyfryw gais…’.

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 75

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 75

New Standing Order No. 28

yn Saesneg Rheol Sefydlog Newydd Rhif 28

The House Committee

yn Saesneg Pwyllgor y Tŷ

Title and Terms of Reference

yn Saesneg Teitl a Chylch Gwaith

28.1 There shall be a House Committee which shall provide advice to the Presiding Officer, the Assembly and the Clerk on:

yn Saesneg 28.1 Bydd yna Bwyllgor Tŷ a fydd yn rhoi cyngor i’r Llywydd, y Cynulliad a’r Clerc ar y canlynol:

a. the administration of the Office of the Presiding Officer excluding the following matters relating to staff:

yn Saesneg a. gweinyddu Swyddfa’r Llywydd heb gynnwys y materion canlynol sy’n ymwneud â’r staff:

i. their terms and conditions of service;

yn Saesneg i. eu hamodau a’u telerau gwaith;

ii. their structure and management;

yn Saesneg ii. eu strwythur a’u rheolaeth;

iii. arrangements made under section 63 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 for carrying out of the functions which have been delegated to staff;

yn Saesneg iii. trefniadau a wneir o dan adran 63 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 ar gyfer cyflawni’r swyddogaethau sydd wedi’u dirprwyo i’r staff;

b. the exercise of the functions of the Office of the Presiding Officer including the services, facilities and accommodation provided for Members, their support staff and the general public;

yn Saesneg b. arfer swyddogaethau Swyddfa’r Llywydd gan gynnwys y gwasanaethau, y cyfleusterau a’r llety sy’n cael eu darparu ar gyfer yr Aelodau, eu staff cymorth a’r cyhoedd;

But excluding matters:

yn Saesneg Ond heb gynnwys materion:

i. relating to the role of the Presiding Officer in deciding whether to refer a matter to the Committee on Standards;

yn Saesneg i. sy’n ymwneud â swyddogaeth y Llywydd wrth benderfynu a ddylai mater gael ei gyfeirio at y Pwyllgor Safonau;

ii. relating to the conduct of plenary and committee sessions of the Assembly;

yn Saesneg ii. sy’n ymwneud â chynnal cyfarfodydd llawn a phwyllgorau’r Cynulliad;

iii. within the responsibility of the Business Committee;

yn Saesneg iii. sydd o fewn cyfrifoldeb y Pwyllgor Busnes;

c. Members’ salaries, allowances and pensions;

yn Saesneg c. cyflogau, lwfansau a phensiynau’r Aelodau;

d. the contents of guidance to be published in relation to the matters set out at (a)-(c) above;

yn Saesneg ch. cynnwys canllawiau sydd i’w cyhoeddi mewn perthynas â’r materion a nodir yn (a)- (c) uchod;

e. the budget of the Office of the Presiding Officer.

yn Saesneg d. cyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd.

Membership

in Welsh Aelodaeth

28.2. The Assembly shall elect to the Committee one member from each political group in the Assembly, together with another member to chair it. If a member other than the Presiding Officer is elected to chair the Committee, the Presiding Officer shall be entitled to attend meetings of the Committee. If a member other than the Deputy Presiding Officer is elected to chair the Committee, the Deputy shall be entitled to attend meetings of the Committee.

yn Saesneg 28.2. Bydd y Cynulliad yn ethol i’r Pwyllgor un aelod o bob grŵp gwleidyddol yn y Cynulliad, ynghyd ag un aelod arall i’w gadeirio. Os caiff aelod heblaw’r Llywydd ei ethol i gadeirio’r Pwyllgor, bydd gan y Llywydd hawl i fod yn bresennol yng nghyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor. Os caiff aelod heblaw’r Dirprwy Lywydd ei ethol i gadeirio’r Pwyllgor, bydd gan y Dirprwy Lywydd hawl i fod yn bresennol yng nghyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor.

28.3. A member of the Committee, having given advance notice to the Chair, may be represented at a meeting of the Committee by another Member nominated from the same political group to which that Member belongs. The nominated representative may participate in the meeting of the Committee as if the representative were a member of the Committee.

yn Saesneg 28.3. Gall aelod o’r Pwyllgor, ar ôl rhoi hysbysiad ymlaen llaw i’r Cadeirydd, gael ei gynrychioli yn un o gyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor gan Aelod arall a enwebir o blith yr un grŵp gwleidyddol y mae’r Aelod hwnnw’n perthyn iddo. Caiff yr Aelod a enwebir gymryd rhan yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor fel pe bai’n aelod o’r Pwyllgor.

28.4. A member of the Committee may chair a meeting of the Committee in the absence of the Chair of the Committee. Such member shall be appointed by the Committee either at the meeting concerned or at a previous meeting.

yn Saesneg 28.4. Caiff aelod o’r Pwyllgor gadeirio un o gyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor yn absenoldeb y Cadeirydd. Penodir yr aelod hwnnw gan y Pwyllgor naill ai yn y cyfarfod o dan sylw neu mewn cyfarfod blaenorol.

Meetings

yn Saesneg Cyfarfodydd

28.5. The Committee shall meet at least once in every four weeks that the Assembly meets in plenary, unless the Committee decides otherwise. The Committee may agree to hold additional meetings.

yn Saesneg 28.5. Bydd y Pwyllgor yn cyfarfod o leiaf unwaith ym mhob pedair wythnos y bydd y Cynulliad yn cynnal cyfarfodydd llawn, oni bai bod y Pwyllgor yn penderfynu fel arall. Caiff y Pwyllgor gytuno i gynnal cyfarfodydd ychwanegol.

28.6. The Committee shall meet in private but the minutes of the meetings shall be published six weeks after each meeting.

yn Saesneg 28.6. Bydd y Pwyllgor yn cyfarfod yn breifat ond caiff cofnodion y cyfarfodydd eu cyhoeddi chwe wythnos ar ôl pob cyfarfod.

28.7. A member of the Committee shall be nominated to answer questions for oral answers at a plenary meeting of the Assembly in accordance with paragraph 6.3(iv).

yn Saesneg 28.7. Enwebir aelod o’r Pwyllgor i ateb cwestiynau i’w hateb ar lafar yn un o gyfarfodydd llawn y Cynulliad yn unol â pharagraff 6.3(iv).

Standing Order No. 6: Assembly Business in Plenary Meetings Paragraph 6.3 Insert new sub paragraph (iv) one Member of the House Committee to answer questions for oral answers at least once, and for at least 15 minutes, in every four weeks that the Assembly meets in plenary.

yn Saesneg Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6: Busnes y Cynulliad yn y Cyfarfodydd Llawn Paragraff 6.3, mewnosoder is-baragraff newydd (iv) i un Aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ ateb cwestiynau sydd i’w hateb ar lafar o leiaf unwaith, ac am o leiaf 15 munud, ym mhob pedair wythnos y bydd y Cynulliad yn cynnal cyfarfodydd llawn.

Add new paragraph 6.26A 6.26A Members may table questions for oral answer by a member of the House Committee about any matter coming within the remit of the Committee under Standing Order No. 28.

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraff 6.26A newydd 6.26A Caiff Aelodau gyflwyno cwestiynau i’w hateb ar lafar gan aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ ynghylch unrhyw fater sydd o fewn cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 28.

Paragraph 6.28 After ‘to the First Secretary under paragraph 6.3(i),’ insert ‘or to a member of the House Committee under paragraph 6.3(iv),’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 6.28 Ar ôl ‘i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd o dan baragraff 6.3(i)’ mewnosoder ‘neu i aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ o dan baragraff 6.3(iv),’.

Paragraph 6.30 In the second sentence, after ‘Assembly Secretaries’ insert ‘and the member of the House Committee’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 6.30 Yn yr ail frawddeg, ar ôl ‘Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad’ mewnosoder ‘a’r aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ’.

Paragraph 6.31 At the end, insert ‘This paragraph shall not apply to questions for oral answer by a member of the House Committee’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 6.31 Ar y diwedd, mewnosoder ‘Ni fydd y paragraff hwn yn gymwys i gwestiynau sydd i’w hateb ar lafar gan aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ’.

Paragraph 6.33 At the end, insert ‘or to the House Committee about matters relating to its responsibilities’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 6.33 Ar y diwedd, mewnosoder ‘neu i Bwyllgor y Tŷ ynghylch ei gyfrifoldebau yntau’.

Add new paragraph 6.34A 6.34(A) Members may table questions for written answer by the chair of the House Committee about any matter coming within the remit of the Committee under Standing Order No. 28.

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraff 6.34A newydd 6.34(A) Caiff Aelodau gyflwyno cwestiynau sydd i’w hateb yn ysgrifenedig gan gadeirydd Pwyllgor y Tŷ ynghylch unrhyw fater sydd o fewn cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 28.

Standing Order No. 8: Committees

yn Saesneg Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 8: Pwyllgorau

Paragraph 8.25A In the final sentence, after ‘Subject Committees’ replace ‘and’ with ‘,’ and at the end of the paragraph insert, ‘and the House Committee’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 8.25A Yn y frawddeg olaf, ar ôl ‘Y Pwyllgorau Pwnc’ yn lle ‘a’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad’ rhodder ‘, y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad a Phwyllgor y Tŷ’.

Standing Order No. 19: Finance Procedures

yn Saesneg Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19: Gweithdrefnau Cyllid

Add new paragraph 19.00

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraff 19.00 newydd

Determination of Budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer

yn Saesneg Penderfynu Cyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd

19.00 In each financial year, no later than 20 September, the House Committee shall consider the budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer. Following discussion between the Presiding Officer, the Clerk and the Finance Secretary, a member of the House Committee shall table a draft budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer, no later than the 1 October. At the same time, the House Committee member shall table a motion that the draft budget be adopted. The draft budget should normally be for the following financial year and provisional allocations for the subsequent two years, or for a period which the Finance Secretary considers appropriate. The motion that the draft budget be adopted shall not be subject to amendment and shall be debated no later than 10 October. If the motion is adopted, that budget should then become the final budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer and shall be incorporated as such in the draft and final Assembly budgets.

yn Saesneg 19. 00 Ym mhob blwyddyn ariannol, erbyn 20 Medi fan bellaf, bydd Pwyllgor y Tŷ yn ystyried y gyllideb ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Yn sgil trafod rhwng y Llywydd, y Clerc a’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, bydd aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ yn gosod cyllideb ddrafft ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd, erbyn 1 Hydref fan bellaf. Ar yr un pryd, bydd yr aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ yn cyflwyno cynnig bod y gyllideb ddrafft yn cael ei mabwysiadu. Dylai’r gyllideb ddrafft ymdrin fel rheol â’r flwyddyn ariannol ddilynol a’r dyraniadau dros dro ar gyfer y ddwy flynedd wedyn, neu am gyfnod sy’n briodol ym marn yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid. Ni fydd y cynnig bod y gyllideb ddrafft yn cael ei mabwysiadu yn destun gwelliannau a rhaid ei ddadlau erbyn 10 Hydref fan bellaf. Os caiff y cynnig ei fabwysiadu, dylai’r gyllideb honno ddod yn gyllideb derfynol ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd a chaiff ei hymgorffori fel y cyfryw yng nghyllideb ddrafft a chyllideb derfynol y Cynulliad.

Paragraph 19.5 In-Year Adjustments of Assembly Budget Add new subtitle ‘Changes to Main Expenditure Groups’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 19.5 Addasiadau i Gyllideb y Cynulliad yn ystod y Flwyddyn Ychwaneger is-deitl newydd ‘Newidiadau i’r Prif Grwpiau Gwariant’.

At the start, insert ‘Subject to the provisions of paragraph 19.5A,’.

yn Saesneg Ar y dechrau, mewnosoder ‘Yn ddarostyngedig i ddarpariaethau paragraff 19.5A,’.

Add new paragraphs 19.5A and 19.5B 19.5A Except in cases of urgency, any change in the course of a financial year in the level of resources allocated to the main expenditure group established for the Office of the Presiding Officer in the final budget adopted under paragraph 19.00 shall only be made on a motion proposed by a member of the House Committee. Any such motion shall not be subject to amendment. In cases of urgency, the Clerk may, subject to paragraph 19.5B, change the level of resources allocated to this expenditure group but, in such case, a member of the House Committee shall inform the Assembly as soon as reasonably practicable of the action taken.

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraffau 19.5A a 19.5B newydd 19.5A Ac eithrio mewn achosion brys, dim ond drwy gynnig a gynigir gan aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ y gwneir unrhyw newid yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol yn lefel yr adnoddau a ddyrennir i’r prif grŵp gwariant a sefydlwyd ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn y gyllideb derfynol a fabwysiadwyd o dan baragraff 19.00. Ni fydd unrhyw gynnig o’r fath yn destun gwelliannau. Mewn achosion brys, yn ddarostyngedig i baragraff 19.5B, caiff y Clerc newid lefel yr adnoddau a ddyrennir i’r grŵp gwariant hwn ond, mewn achos o’r fath, bydd aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ yn rhoi gwybod i’r Cynulliad am y camau a gymerwyd cyn gynted ag y bydd yn rhesymol ymarferol.

19.5B Any change proposed by the Clerk in a financial year to the level of resources allocated to the main expenditure group established for the Office of the Presiding Officer shall first be discussed with the Presiding Officer and the House Committee and subsequently with the Assembly Secretary for Finance. Such discussions shall also take place before the Clerk, in cases or urgency, changes the level of resources allocated to this main expenditure group.

yn Saesneg 19.5B Rhaid i unrhyw newid a gynigir gan y Clerc mewn blwyddyn ariannol yn lefel yr adnoddau a ddyrennir i’r prif grŵp gwariant a sefydlwyd ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd gael ei drafod yn gyntaf gyda’r Llywydd a Phwyllgor y Tŷ ac wedyn gydag Ysgrifennydd Cyllid y Cynulliad. Rhaid cynnal trafodaethau o’r fath hefyd cyn i’r Clerc, mewn achosion brys, newid lefel yr adnoddau a ddyrennir i’r prif grŵp gwariant hwn.

Paragraph 19.6 Add new subtitle ‘Changes Within Main Expenditure Groups’.

yn Saesneg Paragraff 19.6 Ychwaneger is-bennawd newydd ‘Newidiadau o fewn y Prif Grwpiau Gwariant’.

At the start, insert ‘Subject to the provisions in paragraph 19.7A,’.

yn Saesneg Ar y dechrau, mewnosoder ‘Yn ddarostyngedig i’r darpariaethau ym mharagraff 19.7A,’

Add new paragraph 19.7A 19.7A The provisions of paragraphs 19.6 and 19.7 shall not apply to the main expenditure group established for the Office of the Presiding Officer. In the course of a financial year, the Clerk to the Assembly, after consultation with the Presiding Officer and the House Committee and having notified the Assembly Secretary for Finance, may approve the transfer of resources within the main expenditure group established for the Office of the Presiding Officer, between and within financial allocations within the main expenditure group.

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraff 19.7A newydd 19.7A Ni fydd darpariaethau paragraffau 19.6 a 19.7 yn gymwys ar gyfer y prif grŵp gwariant a sefydlwyd ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Yn ystod blwyddyn ariannol, caiff Clerc y Cynulliad, ar ôl ymgynghori â’r Llywydd a Phwyllgor y Tŷ, ac ar ôl hysbysu Ysgrifennydd Cyllid y Cynulliad, gymeradwyo trosglwyddo adnoddau o fewn y prif grŵp gwariant a sefydlwyd ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd, rhwng y dyraniadau ariannol o fewn y prif grŵp gwariant ac o’u mewn.

Add new paragraph 19.22 19.22 The provisions of paragraphs 19.13 to 19.21 shall apply to the authorisation by the Presiding Officer of a Notifiable Transaction with the substitution for references to ‘an Assembly Secretary’ of references to ‘a member of the House Committee’.

yn Saesneg Ychwaneger paragraff 19.22 newydd 19.22 Bydd darpariaethau paragraffau 19.13 i 19.21 yn gymwys pan fydd y Llywydd yn awdurdodi Trafodiad Hysbysadwy, gan osod cyfeiriadau at ‘aelod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ’ yn lle cyfeiriadau at ‘Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad’.

All members of the Business Committee recommend the proposed changes to the Standing Orders, with the single exception of the revision to Standing Order No. 6.5, to which I understand Plaid Cymru may object.

yn Saesneg Argymell pob aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes y newidiadau a gynigir yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, ac eithrio diwygio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5, y deallaf y gallai Plaid Cymru ei wrthwynebu.

I begin with the first motion, which proposes changes to Standing Order No. 6.5. The Business Committee, with the exception of Jocelyn Davies, Plaid Cymru’s business manager, recommends that motions proposing debates on reports submitted by Subject Committees may not be open to amendment. We feel that debates on Subject Committee reports are intended to allow the Assembly an opportunity to discuss and to scrutinise the work of the Subject Committees. The tabling of party political amendments is a distraction from the focus of the debate and, worse, they can undermine the cross-party trust and respect built up by Subject Committee members.

yn Saesneg Dechreuaf gyda’r cynnig cyntaf, sydd yn cynnig newidiadau i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes, ac eithrio Jocelyn Davies, rheolwr busnes Plaid Cymru, yn argymell na all cynigion sydd yn cynnig dadleuon ar adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan Bwyllgorau Pwnc fod yn agored i gael eu diwygio. Teimlwn mai bwriad dadleuon ar adroddiadau Pwyllgorau Pwnc yw rhoi cyfle i’r Cynulliad drafod ac archwilio gwaith y Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Mae cyflwyno gwelliannau pleidiol wleidyddol yn tynnu sylw oddi wrth bwyslais y ddadl ac, yn waeth, gallant danseilio’r ymddiriedaeth a’r parch traws-bleidiol a ddatblygwyd gan aelodau’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc.

The second motion proposes changes to Standing Orders Nos. 6.37 and 22.58. First, I turn to Standing Order No. 6.37. Before the Assembly rose for the summer constituency weeks, there was an occasion when a Deputy Secretary responded to a short debate. This is not specifically provided for within Standing Orders. The Business Committee recommends that, with the agreement of the Presiding Officer, Deputy Secretaries should be allowed to respond to a short debate. The proposed revision to Standing Order No. 6.37 regularises this proposal.

yn Saesneg Mae’r ail gynnig yn cynnig newidiadau i Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6.37 a 22.58. Yn gyntaf, trof at Reol Sefydlog 6.37. Cyn i’r Cynulliad godi ar gyfer wythnosau etholaeth yr haf, yr oedd achlysur pan ymatebodd Dirprwy Ygrifennydd i ddadl fer. Nid oes darpariaeth benodol ar gyfer hyn o fewn y Rheolau Sefydlog. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes yn argymell y dylid caniatáu i Ddirprwy Ysgrifenyddion ymateb i ddadl fer, gyda chytundeb y Llywydd. Mae’r diwygiad a gynigir i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.37 yn rheoleiddio’r cynnig hwn.

Standing Order No. 22.58 relates to Part 7 of Standing Order No. 22, which is our equivalent of a Private Member’s Bill. Experience has shown that the current requirement for a Member to indicate only the topic when entering the ballot does not significantly help in the identification of a legislative opportunity. The Business Committee recommends that this provision should be removed from the Standing Order.

yn Saesneg Mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.58 yn ymwneud â Rhan 7 o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22, sydd yn cyfateb â Mesur Aelod Preifat. Mae profiad wedi dangos nad yw’r gofyniad cyfredol bod Aelod ond yn nodi’r pwnc wrth bleidleisio yn helpu’n fawr i nodi cyfle deddfwriaethol. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes yn argymell y dylid dileu’r ddarpariaeth hon o’r Rheol Sefydlog.

I turn to the House Committee and the creation of a separate budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer. This entails a new Standing Order No. 28 and revisions to Standing Orders Nos. 6 and 19. The third motion proposes the creation of a formally constituted House Committee, provisions for a member of the new House Committee to answer oral questions and the creation of a separate budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer. The creation of a separate budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer will formalise greater independence of the Presiding Officer and his office. The budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer will be subject to discussion between the Presiding Officer, the Clerk, the Assembly and my colleague, the Finance Secretary. A member of the House Committee will table the draft budget and a motion to approve the budget no later than 1 October each year. Following approval, the draft budget will become the final budget of the Office of the Presiding Officer and shall be incorporated as such in the draft and final Assembly budgets. My colleague, the Finance Secretary, will expand on the detail during the debate on the budget of the Office of the Presiding Officer later this afternoon. These changes comprise a new Standing Order No. 28 and amendments to Standing Orders Nos. 6 and 19. All parties endorse these changes.

yn Saesneg Trof at Bwyllgor y Tŷ a chreu cyllideb ar wahân ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Golyga hyn Reol Sefydlog Rhif 28 newydd a diwygiadau i Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6 a 19. Mae’r trydydd cynnig yn cynnig creu Pwyllgor Tŷ a etholir yn ffurfiol, darpariaethau er mwyn i aelod o’r Pwyllgor Tŷ newydd ateb cwestiynau ar lafar a chreu cyllideb ar wahân ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Bydd creu cyllideb ar wahân ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn ffurfioli annibyniaeth fwy y Llywydd a’i swyddfa. Bydd cyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn destun trafodaeth rhwng y Llywydd, y Clerc, y Cynulliad a’m cyd-Aelod, yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid. Bydd aelod o’r Pwyllgor Tŷ yn cyflwyno’r gyllideb ddrafft a chynnig i gymeradwyo’r gyllideb erbyn 1 Hydref bob blwyddyn fan bellaf. Ar ôl cael ei chymeradwyo, y gyllideb ddrafft fydd cyllideb derfynol Swyddfa’r Llywydd a chaiff ei hymgorffori fel hyn yng nghyllidebau drafft a therfynol y Cynulliad. Bydd fy nghyd-Aelod, yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, yn ymhelaethu ar y manylion yn ystod y ddadl ar gyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn hwyrach y prynhawn yma. Mae’r newidiadau hyn yn cynnwys Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 28 newydd a gwelliannau i Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6 a 19. Mae pob plaid yn cymeradwyo’r newidiadau hyn.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 81

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Plaid Cymru opposes these changes to Standing Order No. 6.5—I understand that colleagues might want to comment on the other changes—for a number of reasons. Due to lack of time, I will only outline one. These changes prevent anyone from amending motions that note Subject Committee reports. Those reports always remain intact and are then altered. It is now possible only to amend the motion, and this change would remove that right. Why would anyone want to amend the motion? The Government of Wales Act 1998 makes allowances for the election of independent Members or for Members becoming independent once they are here. I can imagine someone being elected from an ethnic minority on a regional basis. Our Standing Orders would prevent them from taking part in any policy development. They could not sit on Subject Committees or on cross-cutting Committees or on the Business Committee. They could only sit on Regional Committees. They would have no opportunity for a minority party debate and they could not comment on the business statement. That is undemocratic and unfair. Any amendment proposed in this way would have to find favour with the majority of Assembly Members before it was passed. Until there is a mechanism to allow smaller parties of less than three Members, or independent Members, the opportunity to engage in policy development, we will oppose this change.

Gwrthwyneba Plaid Cymru y newidiadau hyn i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.4—deallaf ei bod yn bosibl y bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau am roi sylwadau ar y newidiadau eraill—am nifer o resymau. Oherwydd diffyg amser, dim ond un y byddaf yn ei amlinellu. Rhwystra’r newidiadau hyn unrhyw un rhag diwygio cynigion sydd yn nodi adroddiadau’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Erys yr adroddiadau hynny yn gyfan drwy’r amser ac wedyn cânt eu newid. Dim ond diwygio’r cynnig sydd yn bosibl bellach, a byddai’r newid hwn yn dileu’r hawl honno. Pam y byddai unrhyw un am ddiwygio’r cynnig? Mae Deddf Llywodraeth 1998 yn caniatáu ar gyfer ethol Aelodau annibynnol neu fod Aelodau yn dod yn annibynnol unwaith y byddant yma. Gallaf ddychmygu rhywun yn cael ei ethol o leiafrif ethnig yn rhanbarthol. Byddai ein Rheolau Sefydlog yn eu rhwystro rhag cymryd rhan mewn unrhyw waith datblygu polisi. Ni allent eistedd ar Bwyllgorau Pwnc nac ar Bwyllgorau trawsbynciol nac ar y Pwyllgor Busnes. Dim ond ar Bwyllgorau Rhanbarth y gallent eistedd. Ni fyddai cyfle ganddynt gael dadl plaid leiafrifol a ni allent roi sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes. Nid yw hynny’n ddemocrataidd nac yn deg. Byddai’n rhaid i fwyafrif Aelodau’r Cynulliad fod o blaid unrhyw welliant a gynigir yn y modd hwn cyn iddo gael ei gymeradwyo. Nes bod mecanwaith i ganiatáu i bleidiau llai o lai na thri Aelod, neu Aelodau annibynnol, gael y cyfle i ymwneud â datblygu polisi, gwrthwynebwn y newid hwn.

David Melding spoken in English p. 82

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I have some reservations about the amendment to Standing Order No. 6.37. The way it is worded, the Assembly Secretary could nominate any Assembly Member to respond to a short debate. Will your consent, which is referred to in this sentence, be exercised to mean always the Deputy Assembly Secretary? I am concerned that Deputy Assembly Secretaries still have not been written into Standing Orders, therefore we have no real status for that office. That is regrettable. If we need Deputy Assembly Secretaries, there should be some reference to them in the Standing Orders. Finally, I will vote against this measure in any event because it further undermines the status of short debates, which were fatally wounded last year when we removed the requirement for a vote after their completion.

Mae rhai amheuon gennyf am y gwelliant i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.37. Yn ôl y ffordd y mae wedi’i eirio, gallai’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad enwebu unrhyw Aelod o’r Cynulliad i ymateb i ddadl fer. A gaiff eich caniatâd, y cyfeirir ato yn y frawddeg hon, ei arfer bob tro i olygu Dirprwy Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad? Yr wyf yn poeni nad yw Dirprwy Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad wedi’u cynnwys o hyd yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, ac felly nad oes gwir statws i’r swydd honno. Mae hwn yn destun gofid. Os oes angen Dirprwy Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad, dylai’r Rheolau Sefydlog gyfeirio atynt. Yn olaf, pleidleisiaf yn erbyn y mesur hwn beth bynnag am ei fod yn tanseilio ymhellach statws y dadleuon byr, a niweidiwyd yn ddifrifol y llynedd pan ddileasom y gofyniad i gynnal pleidlais ar ôl iddynt ddod i ben.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 82

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

As you know, the Liberal Democrats strongly opposed the removal of the requirement for a vote after short debates, but I do not recall us getting much support. [CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘We supported that.’] I meant overall.

Fel y gwyddoch, gwrthwynebodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gryf ddileu’r gofyniad i gynnal pleidlais ar ddadleuon byr ond ni chofiaf inni gael llawer o gefnogaeth. [AELODAU CEIDWADOL O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Cefnogasom hynny.’] Ar y cyfan yr oeddwn yn ei olygu.

I want to mention two important issues about Standing Order No. 6.5. An independent Member has the right to sit on Committees. It is simply the case that the current independent Assembly Member does not sit on Committees. That does not mean that he does not have the right to do so. I do not know the Standing Orders off by heart, but I recall that there is one that states that the Business Secretary must endeavour to ensure that this happens. Therefore, it is wrong to confuse that with the question of the rights of independent Members, which, with all due respect, has not been raised before today. It could be that we need to look at the rights of independent Members, but let us not confuse that with the rights of Committees, particularly today when we are considering the possibility that there will be a majority government here. We should do nothing to undermine the powers and the rights of Committees. What right do we as an Assembly have to fiddle with, and probably undermine, the impact of a report that is the work of a Committee. Committee members have the right to table a motion, to vote and to amend a report when it is presented to them in its draft stage. I hope that any report would reflect strongly held minority views on that Committee, but that is the Committee’s business. If we started undermining the role of Committees, we would be changing the whole balance of the Assembly in terms of Committees’ powers. I greatly regret that Plaid Cymru seem intent on undermining the role of Committees through this issue.

Dymunaf sôn am ddau fater pwysig ynglŷn â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5. Mae hawl gan Aelod annibynnol i eistedd ar Bwyllgorau. Y sefyllfa yw nad yw’r Aelod annibynnol cyfredol yn y Cynulliad yn eistedd ar y Pwyllgorau. Ni olyga hyn nad oes hawl ganddo i wneud hynny. Ni ddysgais y Rheolau Sefydlog ar fy nghof, ond cofiaf fod un yn nodi bod yn rhaid i’r Trefnydd geisio sicrhau y digwydd hyn. Felly, ni ddylid cymysgu rhwng hynny a mater hawliau Aelodau annibynnol, na chodwyd cyn heddiw, gyda phob dyledus barch. Gallai fod yn bosibl bod angen inni edrych ar hawliau Aelodau annibynnol, ond ni ddylem gymysgu hynny â hawliau’r Pwyllgorau, yn enwedig heddiw pan ystyriwn y posibilrwydd y bydd llywodraeth fwyafrifol yma. Ni ddylem wneud unrhywbeth i danseilio pwerau a hawliau’r Pwyllgorau. Pa hawl sydd gennym fel Cynulliad i newid, a thanseilio mae’n debyg, effaith adroddiad sydd yn gynnyrch gwaith Pwyllgor. Mae hawl gan aelodau’r Pwyllgorau i gyflwyno cynnig, pleidleisio a diwygio adroddiad pan y’i cyflwynir iddynt fel adroddiad drafft. Gobeithiaf y byddai unrhyw adroddiad yn adlewyrchu barnau lleiafrifol cryf rhai ar y Pwyllgor, ond busnes y Pwyllgor yw hynny. Pe byddwn yn dechrau tanseilio rôl y Pwyllgorau, byddem yn newid cydbwysedd cyfan y Cynulliad o ran pwerau’r Pwyllgorau. Mae’n ddrwg iawn gennyf fod Plaid Cymru fel petaent yn benderfynol o danseilio rôl y Pwyllgorau oherwydd y mater hwn.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 83

Cefnogaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Jocelyn Davies ynglŷn â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5. Mae’n debyg mai blaenffrwyth y glymblaid rhwng y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Blaid Lafur yw ymdrech i fygu’r cyfle am drafodaeth lawn ar adroddiadau Pwyllgorau. Cofiaf y ddadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16, pan gyflwynodd Plaid Cymru welliant a ddrafftiwyd gennyf fi, yn tynnu sylw at rai o’r methiannau yn hanes y Pwyllgor ac, felly, yn ei adroddiad. Daethom dan lach pawb yn y Siambr am wneud y fath beth, er bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cyflwyno gwelliant ar adeg arall i gynnig ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Rhanbarth. Cofiaf inni gael dadl ar hynny. Nid oes unrhyw wahaniaeth rhwng Pwyllgor Pwnc a Phwyllgor Rhanbarth mewn perthynas â hyn. Nid wyf yn deall dadl Jenny Randerson fod galluogi Aelod y Cynulliad i gyflwyno gwelliant yn tanseilio pŵer neu ddylanwad y Pwyllgorau. Nid yw’n gwneud hynny. Yn y pen draw, y Cynulliad sydd yn penderfynu unrhyw bolisi. Mae hynny’n wir mewn perthynas ag adroddiadau Pwyllgorau. Mae’n hollol briodol fod y Cynulliad yn cael y cyfle i ddatgan ei farn ar adroddiad Pwyllgor yn ei hawl ei hunan.

I support what Jocelyn Davies said about Standing Order No. 6.5. It seems that the first fruit of the coalition between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party is an attempt to stifle a full discussion about Committee reports. I remember the debate on the Pre-16 Education Committee report when Plaid Cymru tabled an amendment that I drafted, which drew attention to some of the deficiencies in the Committee’s history and, therefore, in its report. We were criticised by everbody in the Chamber for trying to do such a thing, although the Liberal Democrats had submitted an amendment to a motion on the report of the Regional Committee at another time. I remember us debating that. There is no difference between a Regional Committee and a Subject Committee in relation to this. I do not understand Jenny Randerson’s argument that enabling an Assembly Member to table an amendment undermines the power or influence of the Committees. It does not do that. At the end of the day, the Assembly decides any policy. That is true in relation to Committee reports. It is entirely appropriate that the Assembly has the opportunity to declare its opinion on the report in its own right.

Dychwelaf at bwynt Jocelyn Davies. Yn y dyfodol, gall pleidiau neu unigolion fod heb gynrychiolaeth ar bob Pwyllgor. Beth bynnag a ddywedwn am Reolau Sefydlog a hawl Aelodau annibynnol i eistedd ar unrhyw Bwyllgor, bydd Aelodau annibynnol na fyddant yn eistedd ar Bwyllgor penodol yn y dyfodol. Mae’n bosibl y bydd grwpiau yn y Cynulliad hwn yn llai yn y dyfodol a dylai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gadw hynny mewn cof. Dylai’r Aelodau annibynnol sydd heb gynrychiolaeth ar Bwyllgorau gael y cyfle i ddatgan anfodlonrwydd ar adroddiad Pwyllgor neu ychwanegu at adroddiad. Mae cyflwyno gwelliant yn fodd o sicrhau cyfle i bobl i gymryd rhan mewn dadl. Onibai bod pobl yn cyflwyno gwelliant, nid oes sicrwydd y byddant yn medru cymryd rhan mewn dadl. Byddai newid y Rheolau Sefydlog yn rhwystro hynny. Dyna pam yr wyf finnau a Phlaid Cymru yn gwrthwynebu’r newid hwn.

To return to Jocelyn Davies’s point. In the future, some parties or individual Members may not have representation on every Committee. Whatever we say about Standing Orders and independent Members’ rights to sit on any Committee, some independent Members will not be sitting on a specific Committee in the future. It is possible that groups in this Assembly will be smaller in the future than they are now and the Liberal Democrats should bear that in mind. Those independent Members who have no representation on the Committees should have the opportunity to declare their dissatisfaction with a Committee report or to add to a report. Tabling an amendment is a way of ensuring that people have the opportunity to participate in a debate. If people do not table an amendment, there is no certainty that they can participate in a debate. Amending the Standing Orders would prevent that. That is why Plaid Cymru and myself object to this change.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 84

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Plaid Cymru’s logic on this issue is tortured. It is distressing to hear it from Cynog. I expect it from some of his colleagues, but it is distressing to hear it from him. The key point is that the Subject Committees were intended to be part and parcel of the policy making engine room of this institution. They are hedged with guarantees and protections in the Standing Orders. We should be careful before we trample all over that kind of protection because, speaking for the Pre-16 Education Committee, valuable items of policy making and cross-party working happen all the time. We would like to jealously guard that. I well remember the wrecking amendment that Plaid Cymru tabled on our Committee report. For Cynog to say that a Committee should stand by to have the wording of its report saved from spelling mistakes and suchlike by Plaid Cymru or some other group in the Chamber is insulting and patronising. A Committee should be able to go about its business and present its report in a constructive way. That is what they were intended to do. I return to the point I made when this daft point was made by Plaid Cymru. If there was a majority government in this institution—and there may be—that would enable the Executive to trample all over what the Subject Committee wishes to present to the Assembly as a whole. They could do whatever they wanted with it. They could turn the Subject Committee report inside out and upside down. This is extremely silly from Plaid Cymru and extraordinarily dangerous.

Mae rhesymeg Plaid Cymru ar y mater hwn yn anodd. Mae’n dorcalonnus clywed Cynog yn ei ddweud. Disgwyliaf i rai o’i gyd-Aelodau ei ddweud, ond mae’n dorcalonnus ei glywed ef yn ei ddweud. Y pwynt allweddol yw bod y Pwyllgorau Pwnc i fod yn rhan annatod o broses gwneud polisi’r sefydliad hwn. Caiff ei gwarantu a’i hamddiffyn yn y Rheolau Sefydlog. Dylem fod yn ofalus cyn inni sathru ar y math hwn o weithdrefnau amddiffyn oherwydd bod eitemau gwerthfawr o ran llunio polisi a gwaith trawsbleidiol yn digwydd drwy’r amser, gan siarad ar ran y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Hoffem ddiogelu hynny yn ofalus. Cofiaf yn dda y gwelliant dinistriol a gyflwynwyd gan Blaid Cymru ar adroddiad ein Pwyllgor. Mae Cynog yn sarhaus ac yn nawddoglyd pan ddywed y dylai Pwyllgor sefyll o’r neilltu tra bod Plaid Cymru neu grŵp arall yn y Siambr yn cywiro gwallau sillafu neu wallau tebyg yn y ffordd y caiff ei adroddiad ei eirio. Dylai fod Pwyllgor yn gallu ymgymryd â’i fusnes a chyflwyno ei adroddiad mewn ffordd adeiladol. Hynny yw eu nod. Dychwelaf at y pwynt a wneuthum pan wnaethpwyd y pwynt twp hwn gan Blaid Cymru. Pe byddai llywodraeth fwyafrifol yn y sefydliad hwn—ac mae’n bosibl y bydd hynny’n digwydd—byddai hynny’n galluogi i’r Weithrediaeth sathru ar bopeth y mae’r Pwyllgor Pwnc yn dymuno ei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad cyfan. Gallent wneud beth bynnag y dymunent ei wneud â’r adroddiad. Gallent droi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Pwnc y tu chwith ac â’i wyneb i lawr. Mae sylwadau Plaid Cymru yn hynod o dwp ac yn hynod o beryglus.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 85

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

As Chairman of one of the Subject Committees in question, I had the distasteful experience of presenting a Committee report, which I thought had the agreement of all parties and all Committee members. We had been through that report. Committee members had the opportunity in and outside the Committee to make amendments and to discuss any unhappiness with the report. It was distasteful and—as the Business Secretary said— it undermined the working and trusting relationship I thought I had with all the Committee members when the wrecking amendment and criticism of that report was presented in this Chamber. As Chair, I valuably guard the independence of that Committee and the opportunity that the Committee report gives to us to express the Committee’s collective view of our work and our judgement on the Executive’s work.

Fel Cadeirydd un o’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc o dan sylw, cefais y profiad erchyll o gyflwyno adroddiad Pwyllgor, y credais fod pob plaid a phob aelod Pwyllgor wedi cytuno arno. Yr oeddem wedi mynd drwy’r adroddiad. Cafodd aelodau Pwyllgor gyfle oddi mewn ac oddi allan i’r Pwyllgor i wneud gwelliannau ac i drafod unrhyw anfodlonrwydd â’r adroddiad. Bu’r gwelliant a beirniadaeth ddinistriol o’r adroddiad hwnnw a gyflwynwyd yn y Siambr hon yn erchyll ac—fel y dywedodd y Trefnydd—tanseiliodd y gydberthynas weithredol a ymddiriedus yr oeddwn yn credu yr oedd gennyf â phob aelod Pwyllgor. Fel y Cadeirydd, diogelaf yn frwd annibyniaeth y Pwyllgor hwnnw a’r cyfle a rydd adroddiad y Pwyllgor inni fynegi barn dorfol y Pwyllgor a’n barn ar waith y Weithrediaeth.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 85

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 85

Yr wyf am symud y ddadl ymlaen drwy gyfeirio at y newidiadau eraill a gyflwynwyd gan y Trefnydd, yn arbennig y newidiadau i’r Pwyllgor Tŷ newydd ac i sicrhau annibyniaeth Swyddfa’r Llywydd.

I want to move the debate forward by referring to the other amendments introduced by the Business Secretary, specifically the changes to the new House Committee and to secure the independence of the Office of the Presiding Officer.

Ar y gwelliant i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5, mae’n bwysig inni sylweddoli bod newidiadau pellgyrhaeddol yma. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod eu pwysigrwydd yng nghyd-destun gweithgarwch y Cynulliad. Rhyfeddaf fod rhai o Aelodau’r Blaid Lafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi canolbwyntio ar un rhan gyfyng o’r drafodaeth yn hytrach na derbyn y bydd newid sylweddol wrth i Swyddfa’r Llywydd gael mwy o annibyniaeth dan y trefniadau newydd.

On the amendment to Standing Order No. 6.5, it is important that we realise that there are far-reaching changes here. It is important that we recognise their importantance in the context of the Assembly’s activity. I am astonished that some Labour and Liberal Democrat Members have concentrated on one small part of the discussion rather than accepting that there will be a significant change as the Office of the Presiding Officer obtains more independence under the new arrangements.

Mae hwn yn gam pwysig a sylweddol. Derbyniaf fod y newidiadau yn mynd cyn belled â phosibl tuag at sicrhau annibyniaeth Swyddfa’r Llywydd o fewn cyfyngiadau Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Rhaid inni dderbyn bod ymgais wedi bod i sicrhau cymaint o annibyniaeth â phosibl, a bod hynny er lles pawb yn y Cynulliad y tu allan i’r Weithrediaeth. Mae hynny’n cynnwys Aelodau meinciau cefn Llafur, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a fydd yn parhau ar y meinciau cefn, a phawb arall yn y Cynulliad.

This is an important and significant step. I accept that the changes go as far as possible towards securing independence for the Office of the Presiding Officer within the restrictions of the Government of Wales Act 1998. We must accept that there has been an attempt to ensure as much independence as possible, and that that is of benefit to everyone in the Assembly outwith the Executive. That includes Labour back-bench Members, the Liberal Democrats who will remain on the back benches, and everyone else in the Assembly.

Mae hwn yn gam hanesyddol ymlaen a gwnaf bwynt gwleidyddol pleidiol wrth gloi, drwy fynegi’r gobaith y bydd hyn yn ffordd o berswadio’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain fod dyddiau’r corff corfforaethol ar ben.

This is an historical step forward and I will make a party political point in closing, by expressing the hope that this will be a way of persuading the Government in London that the days of the body corporate are over.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 86

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I was surprised at the depth of feeling on changes to Standing Orders. I did not expect such passions to be aroused. I accept most of the points that have been made by colleagues. However, it is strange that Cynog and Ieuan seem to believe that this is something that the Labour Party and the Welsh Liberal Democrats have come up with. Three parties have agreed on Standing Order No. 6.5; it is only Plaid Cymru that has opposed it. It is strange that its Members portray themselves as the champions of the Subject Committee when, as Huw Lewis and Kirsty Williams eloquently pointed out, having amendments to motions on Subject Committee reports undermines the principle that it is for Subject Committees to determine their work programmes and the content of the reports that they present to Plenary.

Rhyfeddais ar y dyfnder teimlad ynglŷn â newidiadau i’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Ni ddisgwyliwn y byddai’n ysgogi’r fath deimladau cryf. Derbyniaf y rhan fwyaf o’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelodau. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhyfedd bod Cynog a Ieuan fel petaent yn credu mai rhywbeth y mae’r Blaid Lafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng Nghymru wedi’i greu yw hyn. Mae tair plaid wedi cytuno ar Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5; dim ond Plaid Cymru sydd wedi’i gwrthwynebu. Mae’n rhyfedd bod ei Haelodau yn portreadu eu hunain fel amddiffynwyr y Pwyllgorau Pwnc pan, fel y nododd Huw Lewis a Kirsty Williams yn huawdl, fo cynnig gwelliannau i gynigion ar adroddiadau Pwyllgorau Pwnc yn tanseilio’r egwyddor mai tasg y Pwyllgorau Pwnc yw pennu eu rhaglenni gwaith a chynnwys yr adroddiadau a gyflwynant i’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn.

The administration has always drawn a clear distinction between the role of the Executive and that of Subject Committees. That is why, when it comes to debating motions that call on Subject Committees to do x or y, we have always stuck to the principle that it is not for Plenary to instruct Subject Committees to do anything; the Committees themselves must determine their work. If Standing Order No. 6.5 is not adopted, Plenary will have control over the agenda of Subject Committees. Members must decide on that, but three parties have decided that that infringes on the principle that Subject Committees’ work programmes and decisions are sacrosanct.

Mae’r weinyddiaeth bob amser wedi gwahaniaethu’n amlwg rhwng rôl y Weithrediaeth a rôl y Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Dyna pam, wrth drafod cynigion sydd yn galw ar y Pwyllgorau Pwnc i wneud x neu y, ein bod bob amser wedi glynu at yr egwyddor na ddylai’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn gyfarwyddo’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc i wneud rhywbeth; rhaid i’r Pwyllgorau eu hunain benderfynu ar eu gwaith. Os na fabwysiedir Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5, bydd y Cyfarfodydd Llawn yn rheoli agenda’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Rhaid i’r Aelodau benderfynu ar hynny, ond mae tair plaid wedi penderfynu bod hynny yn ymyrryd â’r egwyddor bod rhaglenni gwaith a phenderfyniadau’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc yn gysegredig.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 87

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 87

Yr wyf am inni fod yn glir ynglŷn â hyn. Nid oes awgrym y dylai’r Cynulliad fod yn gallu penderfynu agenda Pwyllgorau. Nid yw agenda Pwyllgorau, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, yn cael ei phenderfynu yn eu hadroddiadau. Fodd bynnag, mae’n briodol bod gan y Cynulliad yr hawl i wneud sylw, drwy welliant, ar adroddiad Pwyllgor.

I want us to be clear about this. There is no suggestion that the Assembly should be able to decide Committees’ agendas. The agenda of Committees, as I understand, is not determined in their reports. However, it is appropriate that the Assembly has the right to comment, by amendment, on a Committee report.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 87

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

To make such a distinction is sophistry. I am clear about this and three parties agree that it is not for Plenary to decide. You are splitting hairs.

Twyllresymeg yw gwneud gwahaniaeth o’r fath. Yr wyf yn glir am hyn ac mae tair plaid yn cytuno nad y Cyfarfodydd Llawn ddylai benderfynu ar hyn. Yr ydych yn hollti blew.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 87

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Do you agree that an amendment cannot be a comment? I thought that to amend something was to change something.

A gytunwch na all gwelliant fod yn sylw? Credais fod diwygio rhywbeth yn golygu newid rhywbeth.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 87

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Exactly.

Yn union.

I accept David Melding’s views. However, I have difficulty with them because this is a result of extensive consultation within the political parties and those points were not raised through the Business Committee. I assumed that your points would have been raised through your business manager. Business Committee is a forum whereby, after consultation with Members and party groups, issues can be resolved. Had we received advance notice of these objections, we could have taken them on board.

Derbyniaf farn David Melding. Fodd bynnag, caf anhawster gyda hwy oherwydd bod hyn yn ganlyniad ymgynghori helaeth o fewn y pleidiau gwleidyddol ac na chodwyd y pwyntiau hynny drwy’r Pwyllgor Busnes. Cymerais y byddech wedi codi’ch pwyntiau drwy eich rheolwr busnes. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes yn fforwm lle gellir datrys materion, ar ôl ymgynghori â’r Aelodau a grwpiau’r pleidiau. Pe byddem wedi cael rhybudd am y gwrthwynebiadau hyn ymlaen llaw, gallem fod wedi eu hystyried.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 87

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I understand your position and why you might feel that the Business Committee runs the Assembly’s business. However, the Assembly, with the Clerk’s indulgence, runs its own business. It is appropriate for Members to comment on business during Plenary, regardless of what is said in the Business Committee.

Deallaf eich sefyllfa a pham y gallech deimlo bod y Pwyllgor Busnes yn rhedeg busnes y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Cynulliad yn rhedeg ei fusnes ei hun, gyda goddefgarwch y Clerc. Mae’n briodol i Aelodau wneud sylw ar fusnes yn ystod y Cyfarfodydd Llawn, waeth beth a ddywedir yn y Pwyllgor Busnes.

In relation to a comment you made earlier, I have received confirmation that the Assembly Press Office told the BBC before 7.30 a.m. today that the GM debate would be postponed. Perhaps you would like to comment on the fact that that was done by the administration’s Press Office.

Mewn perthynas â’ch sylw cynharach, derbyniais gadarnhad bod Swyddfa’r Wasg y Cynulliad wedi dweud wrth y BBC cyn 7.30 a.m. heddiw y byddai’r ddadl ar addasu genetig yn cael ei gohirio. Efallai yr hoffech ddweud rhywbeth am y ffaith i hyn gael ei wneud gan Swyddfa’r Wasg y weinyddiaeth.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 88

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

That is not relevant to the issue under discussion this afternoon.

Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’r mater a drafodir y prynhawn yma.

The Business Committee does not run the Assembly’s business; it manages the business so that wrangles over procedures and Standing Orders are kept to a minimum and that, as far as possible, we reach consensus. Therefore, people who watch our debates and procedures do not see us wrangling about Standing Orders. I am making a general point that the Business Committee is a forum through which we can manage some of these issues so that we do not wrangle over them in the Chamber as we are seen to be doing now.

Nid y Pwyllgor Busnes sydd yn rhedeg busnes y Cynulliad; rheoli’r busnes a wna fel y caiff anghydfodau ynghylch gweithdrefnau a Rheolau Sefydlog eu lleihau i’r eithaf a’n bod, cyhyd ag y bo modd, yn dod i gonsensws. Felly, nid yw’r bobl sydd yn gwylio ein dadleuon a’n gweithdrefnau yn ein gweld yn cweryla ynghylch Rheolau Sefydlog. Gwnaf bwynt cyffredinol bod y Pwyllgor Busnes yn fforwm lle y gallwn reoli rhai o’r materion hyn fel nad ydym yn cweryla ynglŷn a hwy yn y Siambr fel y gwnawn ar hyn o bryd.

The debate on amending the Regional Committees’ report was about the process, role and functions of Regional Committees. Three of the parties objected to amending the policy content of Subject Committee reports. Three of the parties also felt strongly that they were two distinct issues. Ieuan made a valuable point by saying that we have concentrated on Standing Order No. 6.5. The establishment of the independence of the Office of the Presiding Officer and the establishment of a budget are important points. Edwina Hart will deal with this in more detail when she addresses the financial details of an OPO budget. There is all-party agreement on this, and the Executive is content. Edwina has been discussing at length with the Presiding Officer the structure of his budget. I hope that the motion will receive all-party support.

Yr oedd y ddadl ar ddiwygio adroddiad y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth yn ymwneud â phroses, rôl a swyddogaethau’r Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth. Gwrthwynebodd tair plaid ddiwygio’r rhannau’n ymwneud â pholisi yn adroddiadau’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Teimlai tair plaid yn gryf hefyd mai dau fater gwahanol oeddent. Gwnaethpwyd pwynt gwerthfawr gan Ieuan pan ddywedodd ein bod wedi canolbwyntio ar Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5. Mae sefydlu annibyniaeth Swyddfa’r Llywydd a sefydlu cyllideb yn bwyntiau pwysig. Bydd Edwina Hart yn ymdrin â hyn yn fanylach pan rydd sylw i fanylion ariannol cyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Mae pob plaid wedi cytuno ar hyn, ac mae’r Weithrediaeth yn hapus. Bu Edwina yn cynnal trafodaethau helaeth â’r Llywydd ynglŷn â strwythur ei gyllideb. Gobeithiaf y bydd pob plaid yn cefnogi’r cynnig.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 88

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 88

We have three motions on which to vote.

yn Saesneg Mae gennym dri chynnig i bleidleisio arnynt.

Pleidleisiwn yn gyntaf ar y cynnig i ddiwygio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5.

in Welsh We will first vote on the motion to amend Standing Order No. 6.5.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 88

Motion Andrew Davies p. 88

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 13

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (13)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 89

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 89

Mae hynny’n fwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair. Mae’r cynnig i ddiwygio’r Rheol Sefydlog honno wedi ei dderbyn.

That is a two-thirds majority. The motion to amend that Standing Order has been adopted.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig i ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6.37 a 22.58.

We will now vote on the motion to amend Standing Orders Nos. 6.37 and 22.58.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 89

Motion Andrew Davies p. 89

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 7

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • William Graham
Yn erbynAgainst (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 90

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 90

Mae hynny’n fwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair. Derbyniwyd y cynnig i ddiwygio’r Rheolau hynny.

That is a two-thirds majority. The motion to amend those Orders has been adopted.

Pleidleisiwn yn olaf ar y cynnig i greu Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 28 ac i ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau Rhifau 6, 8 a 19.

Finally, we will vote on the motion to create Standing Order No. 28 and to amend Standing Orders Nos. 6, 8 and 19.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 90

Motion Andrew Davies p. 90

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd heb ei enwi yn y Cofnod siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 91

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer not named in the Record spoken in Welsh p. 91

Mae hynny eto yn fwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair. Derbyniwyd y cynnig i greu Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 28 ac i ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6, 8 a 19.

That is again a two-thirds majority. The motion to create Standing Order No. 28 and to amend Standing Orders Nos. 6, 8 and 19 has been adopted.

Creu Cyllideb ar gyfer Swyddfa’r Llywydd

Establishment of a Budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 92

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 92

Yr wyf yn datgan buddiant o’r Gadair yn y mater hwn.

I declare an interest from the Chair in this matter.

Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 92

Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 92

Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

On behalf of the Executive, I am delighted that Members have just voted to agree to greater independence for your office, Presiding Officer, and to set a separate budget. To address the new arrangements it is necessary to change the resources allocated to your office for the current financial year and also to set the level of resources for the next three financial years.

Ar ran y Weithrediaeth, yr wyf wrth fy modd bod yr Aelodau newydd bleidleisio dros gytuno ar fwy o annibyniaeth i’ch swyddfa, Lywydd, a gosod cyllideb ar wahân. Er mwyn ymdrin â’r trefniadau newydd bydd angen newid yr adnoddau a ddyrennir i’ch swyddfa ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol a hefyd gosod lefel yr adnoddau am y tair blwyddyn ariannol nesaf.

The budget for your office is prepared on the basis that it only includes provision for which the Clerk to the Assembly has management responsibility and accountability. As now, the Clerk will manage the budget for Members’ pay and allowances, for the staff working in your office and costs associated with proceedings, Committees and the Library. He will also assume responsibility for some staff who, although they work here in Cardiff Bay, have until now been attached to the Assembly’s central divisions. Provision for the Pierhead Building, including the Public Information and Education Centre, will also be included in the budget.

Paratoir cyllideb eich swyddfa ar y sail ei bod ond yn cynnwys darpariaeth y mae gan Glerc y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb ac atebolrwydd rheoli drostynt. Fel ar hyn o bryd, y Clerc fydd yn rheoli’r gyllideb ar gyfer cyflog a lwfansau’r Aelodau, ar gyfer y staff sydd yn gweithio yn eich swyddfa ac ar gyfer y costau sydd yn gysylltiedig â thrafodion, Pwyllgorau a’r Llyfrgell. Bydd hefyd yn gyfrifol am rai aelodau o’r staff sydd wedi bod tan yn awr ar ymlyniad o fewn is-adrannau canolog y Cynulliad, er eu bod yn gweithio yma ym Mae Caerdydd. Caiff darpariaeth ar gyfer Adeilad Pierhead, gan gynnwys y Ganolfan Gwybodaeth Gyhoeddus ac Addysg, hefyd ei chynnwys yn y gyllideb.

Where the Clerk does not manage, or is not accountable for particular budgets, I propose that they transfer to the central administration budget. For example, the Clerk is not responsible for the budget for the construction and fitting out of the new building; this will transfer to central administration. However, once the building has been finished, the Office of the Presiding Officer will be responsible for its maintenance and running costs. Most of the proposed changes under the new arrangements are cost neutral because they are simply transfers between Assembly costs and central administration. However, I want the service that Members receive to improve year on year. For this reason, and because your office will assume new responsibilities and functions in several areas, I have included extra provision in the proposed budget. For the current year I propose to make an extra £2 million available, which I propose to fund from the unspent provision for administration costs brought forward from 1999-2000. I will not be able to draw this down formally until December, which is when the extra amount will be added to your office’s budget.

Pan nad yw’r Clerc yn rheoli cyllidebau penodol neu nad yw’n atebol amdanynt, cynigiaf eu bod yn trosglwyddo i gyllideb y weinyddiaeth ganolog. Er enghraifft, nid yw’r Clerc yn gyfrifol am y gyllideb ar gyfer adeiladu a gosod offer a dodrefn yn yr adeilad newydd; bydd hyn yn trosglwyddo i’r weinyddiaeth ganolog. Fodd bynnag, unwaith y bydd yr adeilad wedi’i gwblhau, Swyddfa’r Llywydd fydd yn gyfrifol am ei gostau cynnal a chadw. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r newidiadau a gynigir o dan y trefniadau newydd yn niwtral o ran cost am mai dim ond trosglwyddiadau rhwng costau’r Cynulliad a’r weinyddiaeth ganolog ydynt. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn i’r gwasanaeth a roddir i’r Aelodau wella yn flynyddol. Oherwydd hyn, ac oherwydd y bydd eich swyddfa yn derbyn cyfrifoldebau a swyddogaethau newydd mewn sawl maes, yr wyf wedi cynnwys darpariaeth ychwanegol yn y gyllideb arfaethedig. Cynigiaf ddyrannu £2 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyfredol, a gaiff ei ariannu o’r ddarpariaeth nas gwariwyd ar gyfer costau gweinyddol a drosglwyddwyd o 1999-2000. Ni allaf drosglwyddo’r arian hwn yn ffurfiol tan fis Rhagfyr, pan gaiff yr arian ei ychwanegu at gyllideb eich swyddfa.

I am keen, and I am sure that Members will agree with me, that your office should have adequate resources to enable you, not only to do what we ask of you, but also what you want to provide for us. That is the key issue. Allocating adequate resources will enable the Clerk, the House Committee and you, Presiding Officer, to be able to plan the next three years properly. It will also make it easier for me to plan the rest of the Assembly’s budget, so there is a selfish motive in this as well.

Yr wyf yn awyddus, ac mae’n siŵr y bydd yr Aelodau yn cytuno â mi, y dylai fod adnoddau digonol gan eich swyddfa i’ch galluogi nid yn unig i wneud yr hyn y gofynnwn ichi ei wneud ond hefyd yr hyn y dymunwch ei ddarparu ar ein cyfer. Dyna’r mater allweddol. Bydd dyrannu adnoddau digonol yn galluogi’r Clerc, Pwyllgor y Tŷ a chi, Lywydd, i gynllunio’r tair blwyddyn nesaf yn iawn. Bydd hefyd yn ei gwneud yn haws i mi gynllunio gweddill cyllideb y Cynulliad, ac felly mae cymhelliad hunanol yn hyn hefyd.

I have based your office’s requirements for 2001-02, not only on the best estimate of costs of the functions and responsibilities that we know about already, but also to allow room for enhancement and development. For example, our information technology development of the Fees Office’s payroll and the Translation Service’s database.

Yr wyf wedi seilio gofynion eich swyddfa ar gyfer 2001-2002, nid ar yr amcangyfrif gorau o gostau’r swyddogaethau a’r cyfrifoldebau y gwyddom eisoes amdanynt yn unig, ond hefyd er mwyn caniatáu bod lle i wella a datblygu. Er enghraifft, ein datblygiad technoleg gwybodaeth o gyflogres y Swyddfa Ffïoedd a chronfa data’r Gwasanaeth Cyfieithu.

After 2001-02, I propose that your budget increases by the prevailing inflation rate. At the moment that stands at 2.5 per cent and the provisional plans for 2002-03 and 2003-04 reflect this increase. There are some services that the Assembly’s central divisions will provide to your office and vice versa: core IT services, for example. These services will be provided under a set of service-level agreements. At the end of each financial year, appropriate adjustments will be made so that the proper costs can be shown. I have explained the budget transfers in detail in notes to Table 1, which form part of this motion.

Ar ôl 2001-02, cynigiaf fod eich cyllideb yn cynyddu yn unol â’r gyfradd chwyddiant gyfredol. Ar hyn o bryd 2.5 y cant ydyw ac mae’r cynlluniau dros dro ar gyfer 2002-03 a 2003-04 yn adlewyrchu’r cynnydd hwn. Mae rhai gwasanaethau y bydd is-adrannau canolog y Cynulliad yn eu darparu ar gyfer eich swyddfa ac i’r gwrthwyneb: er enghraifft, gwasanaethau TG craidd. Darperir y gwasanaethau hyn o dan gyfres o gytundebau lefel gwasanaeth. Ar ddiwedd pob blwyddyn ariannol, caiff addasiadau priodol eu gwneud fel y dangosir y costau gwirioneddol. Eglurais y trosglwyddiadau cyllideb yn fanwl yn y nodiadau i Dabl 1, sydd yn rhan o’r cynnig hwn.

The final part of the motion relates to the change in name; calling the budget ‘the Assembly costs’ is confusing because it implies that all Assembly costs are included, which they are not. We are calling it ‘the Office of the Presiding Officer’, which I hope is much clearer. Should you require a revision of those terms, any revision will be easy. I am happy to answer any questions on this issue.

Mae rhan olaf y cynnig yn ymwneud â newid yr enw; mae galw’r gyllideb yn ‘gostau’r Cynulliad’ yn ddryslyd oherwydd ei fod yn rhoi’r argraff y cynhwysir holl gostau’r Cynulliad, nad yw’n wir. Yr ydym yn ei alw yn ‘Swyddfa’r Llywydd’, gan obeithio y bydd hyn yn llawer cliriach. Os bydd angen diwygio’r termau hynny, bydd unrhyw ddiwygiad yn hawdd ei wneud. Yr wyf yn fodlon ateb unrhyw gwestiynau ar y mater hwn.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 94

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 94

Gan ein bod eisoes wedi dangos cefnogaeth i egwyddor annibyniaeth i Swyddfa’r Llywydd, ac wedi pasio hynny eisoes yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, yr ydym yn croesawu’r cam rhesymegol sydd yn dilyn o hynny, sef bod cyllideb neilltuol yn cael ei throsglwyddo i Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Yr ydym yn croesawu’r symud hwn yn gynnes oherwydd y’i gwneir er lles y Cynulliad i gyd.

As we have already shown support for the principle of independence for the Office of the Presiding Officer, and have passed that in the Standing Orders already, we welcome the logical step that follows on from that, namely that a specific budget be transferred to the Office of the Presiding Officer. We warmly welcome this move as it is done for the benefit of the whole Assembly.

Gallaf ddeall pam y gallai rhai yn y weinyddiaeth fod yn nerfus ynghylch y datblygiad hwn. Credaf ein bod ni, nad ydym yn aelodau o’r Weithrediaeth ac sydd yn aelodau’r meinciau cefn o bob plaid, yn croesawu’r symud hwn yn gynnes.

I can understand why some in the administration may be nervous about this development. I believe that we, who are not members of the Executive and who are back-bench members of every party, warmly welcome this move.

Gall Aelodau deimlo’n awr fod adran sydd nid yn unig yn annibynnol ond a all hefyd roi gwybodaeth a chyngor gwrthrychol o bryd i’w gilydd iddynt ar nifer o wahanol faterion. Credaf y bydd y symudiad hwn yn amddiffyn hawliau Aelodau o’r meinciau cefn mewn modd na fodolai hyd yma. Croesawaf y newid yn y Rheolau Sefydlog a chroesawaf yn gynnes ddatganiad Edwina ar gyllid. Nid oeddwn yn siŵr a oedd Edwina’n cyfeirio hefyd at drosglwyddiadau’r prif grwpiau gwariant yn y drafodaeth hon, felly cyfeiriaf at hynny yn nes ymlaen.

Members can now feel that there is a department that is not only independent but can also give them information and objective advice from time to time on a number of different matters. I believe that this move will protect the rights of back-bench Members in a way that did not exist previously. I welcome the amendment to the Standing Orders and I warmly welcome Edwina’s statement on finance. I was not sure whether Edwina was also referring to the main expenditure groups’ transfers in this debate, so I will refer to that later.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 95

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I will retain most of my comments until Edwina has proposed the next motion. However, the Conservative group also welcomes the change in the Standing Orders and the move towards a more independent Office of the Presiding Officer. We will support the motion.

Cadwaf y rhan fwyaf o’m sylwadau nes bod Edwina wedi cynnig y cynnig nesaf. Fodd bynnag, mae’r grŵp Ceidwadol hefyd yn croesawu’r newid yn y Rheolau Sefydlog a’r symudiad hwn tuag at roi mwy o annibyniaeth i Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Cefnogwn y cynnig.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 95

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I thank Members for their comments. I also want to place on record my thanks to the finance staff in my division and to staff in the Office of the Presiding Officer, who have worked so hard to ensure that we could ensure the right transfer arrangements in respect of budgets.

Diolch i’r Aelodau am eu sylwadau. Dymunaf hefyd gofnodi fy mod yn diolch i’r staff cyllid yn fy is-adran ac i staff Swyddfa’r Llywydd, sydd wedi gweithio mor galed er mwyn sicrhau y gallem sicrhau’r trefniadau trosglwyddo cywir o ran cyllidebau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 95

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 95

Cyn symud at bleidlais, hoffwn innau ddatgan fy niolchgarwch i swyddogion yn yr adran gyllid ac yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd am eu cydweithrediad ynglŷn â’r trosglwyddiad hwn.

Before moving to a vote, I would also like to thank officials in the finance department and in the Office of the Presiding Officer for their co-operation regarding this transfer.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 95

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I am not absolutely certain where we are and I am not sure whether the leader of Plaid Cymru is certain either. There is a reference to transfer of funds from one main expenditure group to another. I want to make comments on that but I am unsure—

Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr ble yr ydym ac nid wyf yn siŵr a yw arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn siŵr ychwaith. Cyfeirir at drosglwyddo arian o un prif grŵp gwariant i un arall. Hoffwn gynnig sylwadau ar hynny ond nid wyf yn siŵr—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

That is covered in the next motion. Do not worry, I will give you every opportunity to scrutinise what is going on.

Cwmpesir hynny yn y cynnig nesaf. Peidiwch â phoeni, rhoddaf bob cyfle ichi archwilio’r hyn sydd yn digwydd.

Cynnig Edwina Hart t. 95

Motion Edwina Hart p. 95

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Jane Davidson
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Addasiadau i Gyllidebau Prif Grwpiau Gwariant

Budgetary Adjustments in Main Expenditure Groups

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 96

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Edwina Hart (continued) spoken in English p. 96

Edwina Hart (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I refer Members to my previously circulated speech, which outlined the issues on the technical papers. I will wind-up any issues raised when I reply to the debate.

Cyfeiriaf yr Aelodau at fy araith a ddosbarthwyd eisoes, a amlinellodd y materion ar y papurau technegol. Byddaf yn cloi unrhyw faterion a godwyd pan ymatebaf i’r ddadl.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 96

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I have some points to make on these papers. I want to establish the context of my remarks. Although the Conservative group opposed the budget for 2000-01, we have no objections to movements within the main expenditure groups, as long as they do not operate against our general principle of wanting to ensure funding for health and agriculture. This does not go against that. Some of the transfers reflect changes in portfolios, so there may be other suggested transfers later on. I acknowledge Edwina’s point about the difficulties this year because of the long delay to enable Assembly Members, or at least some of them, to attend party conferences. That has resulted in some of these movements occurring before they had been discussed in Committee. That clearly causes concern, in that it may not have highlighted issues that may arise from the Committee’s discussions. Therefore, we may return to some of these issues later.

Hoffwn godi rhai pwyntiau ar y papurau hyn. Dymunaf sefydlu cyd-destun fy sylwadau. Er i’r grŵp Ceidwadol wrthwynebu’r gyllideb ar gyfer 2000-01, ni wrthwynebwn symudiadau o fewn y prif grwpiau gwariant, ar yr amod na weithredant yn erbyn ein hegwyddor gyffredinol o ddymuno sicrhau arian ar gyfer iechyd ac amaethyddiaeth. Nid yw hyn yn mynd yn erbyn hynny. Adlewyrcha rhai o’r trosglwyddiadau newidiadau mewn portffolios, ac felly mae’n bosibl y caiff trosglwyddiadau eraill eu hawgrymu yn nes ymlaen. Cydnabyddaf bwynt Edwina am yr anawsterau eleni oherwydd yr oedi hir er mwyn galluogi Aelodau’r Cynulliad, neu o leiaf rai ohonynt, i fynychu cynadleddau’r pleidiau. Arweiniodd hyn at rai symudiadau yn digwydd cyn i’r Pwyllgor eu trafod. Mae’n amlwg bod hyn yn achosi pryder, gan na wnaeth o bosibl amlygu’r materion a all ddeillio o drafodaethau’r Pwyllgor. Felly, mae’n bosibl y dychwelwn at rai o’r materion hyn yn nes ymlaen.

My most important point is to highlight the assurance that we are talking about a tidying-up operation and technical transfers. I take the Finance Secretary’s assurance that that is the basis of what is being presented to us. On that basis, we are happy to support it.

Fy mhwynt pwysicaf yw amlygu’r sicrwydd y siaradwn am weithred o dacluso a throsglwyddiadau technegol. Derbyniaf sicrwydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid mai dyna sail yr hyn a gyflwynir inni. Ar y sail honno, yr ydym yn fodlon ei gefnogi.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 97

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

We also, broadly, have no objection to the transfers within the budget heads, because most of them, as Glyn said, relate to changing Assembly Secretaries’ portfolio responsibilities. However, that is not the case in every situation. Could Edwina, therefore, put on record some of the reservations that one might have if one were reading this at face value? The two issues that I would specifically like Edwina to address, which may also address the other issues that are outside portfolio changes, relate to agriculture. If one reads this at face value, one would recognise that there is a transfer of £3.5 million out of the agriculture budget into other budgets: environment in one case and economic development in another.

Nid oes gennym ninnau yn fras unrhyw wrthwynebiad ychwaith i’r trosglwyddiadau o fewn y penawdau cyllideb, gan fod y rhan fwyaf ohonynt, fel y dywedodd Glyn Davies, yn ymwneud â newid cyfrifoldebau portffolio’r Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n wir ym mhob sefyllfa. A allai Edwina, felly, nodi’n swyddogol rai o’r amheuon a allai fod gennych pe byddech yn darllen hyn ar ei olwg gyntaf? Mae’r ddau fater yr hoffwn i Edwina ymdrin â hwy yn benodol, a allai ymdrin â materion eraill sydd y tu allan i’r newidiadau o ran portffolios hefyd, yn ymwneud ag amaethyddiaeth. Os darllenir hyn ar ei olwg gyntaf, cydnabyddir y trosglwyddir £3.5 miliwn o’r gyllideb amaethyddiaeth i gyllidebau eraill: yr amgylchedd mewn un achos a datblygu economaidd mewn achos arall.

As someone who had the privilege of chairing the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee for the first eight months, I recognise that the agriculture budget is small in any event. Seeing movements out of the budget may, superficially, raise concerns or perceptions that there may be a loss of control over that funding. The one that would perhaps cause the most concern were it to lead to loss of control over that budget head, relates to money moving out of agriculture to economic development under the rural development plan and relating to European structural funds. I understand the need for clarity and transparency, and it is easier to achieve that if all European funding is dealt with in one area. However, I would not want that to be at the expense of discussions within the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee about the way that rural development moneys are spent. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has very little discretion in how to use rural development money through the rural development plan. If Edwina can assure the Assembly that although the money has been transferred, the responsibility will remain in the agriculture and rural development budget head, I would be content with these transfers.

Fel rhywun a gafodd y fraint o gadeirio’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig am yr wyth mis cyntaf, cydnabyddaf fod y gyllideb amaethyddiaeth yn fach beth bynnag. Gall symud arian o’r gyllideb achosi pryderon neu amgyffrediadau, yn arwynebol, y caiff rheolaeth ariannu ei cholli. Mae’r un a allai achosi’r pryder mwyaf pe byddai’n arwain at golli rheolaeth dros y pennawd cyllideb hwnnw, yn ymwneud ag arian yn symud o amaethyddiaeth i ddatblygu economaidd o dan y cynllun datblygu gwledig ac yn gysylltiedig â chronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop. Deallaf yr angen am eglurder ac amlygrwydd, ac mae’n haws cyflawni hynny os ymdrinnir â’r holl arian o Ewrop mewn un maes. Fodd bynnag, ni hoffwn i hynny fod ar draul trafodaethau o fewn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig am y ffordd y caiff arian datblygu gwledig ei wario. Nid oes llawer o ryddid gan y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ynglŷn â sut i ddefnyddio arian datblygu gwledig drwy’r cynllun datblygu gwledig. Os gall Edwina sicrhau’r Cynulliad y bydd y cyfrifoldeb yn aros ym mhennawd cyllideb amaethyddiaeth a datblygu gwledig, er bod yr arian wedi’i drosglwyddo, byddwn yn fodlon â’r trosglwyddiadau hyn.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 98

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I echo Glyn Davies and Ieuan Wyn Jones’s comments on the technical nature of such transfers. I wish to ask the Finance Secretary about the £3 million transfer out of the economic development budget to the central administration major expenditure group. We realise that the Wales European Funding Office, which is the purpose of the transfer, needs all the money that it can lay its hands on in order to facilitate the Objective 1 programme. What is the net additional expenditure that is going to the Wales European Funding Office when we take out the former Welsh European Programme Executive budget? There must have been expenditure from central funds at that time to the WEPE office. What is the total funding that is now moving forward to the Wales European Funding Office? If you cannot answer this question now, I would appreciate it in a written format, or in a statement on another occasion.

Ategaf sylwadau Glyn Davies ac Ieuan Wyn Davies am natur dechnegol trosglwyddiadau o’r fath. Dymunaf ofyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid am y £3 miliwn a drosglwyddwyd o’r gyllideb datblygu economaidd i brif grŵp gwariant y weinyddiaeth ganolog. Sylweddolwn fod angen i Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru, sef nod y trosglwyddiad, gael yr holl arian y gall gael gafael ynddo er mwyn hwyluso rhaglen Amcan 1. Beth yw’r gwariant ychwanegol clir sydd yn mynd i Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru pan dynnwn gyllideb yr hen Weinyddiaeth Rhaglenni Ewropeaidd Cymru? Rhaid bod arian canolog wedi’i wario ar swyddfa Gweinyddiaeth Rhaglenni Ewropeaidd Cymru bryd hynny. Beth yw’r cyfanswm arian sydd bellach yn trosglwyddo i Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru? Os na allwch ateb y cwestiwn hwn ar hyn o bryd, gwerthfawrogwn ateb ysgrifenedig, neu ddatganiad rywbryd arall.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 98

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

Like the other parties, we support this proposal, because it is a technical matter. The important thing in any budget process, and certainly in the budget process that the National Assembly for Wales is beginning to develop, is to ensure transparency. The National Assembly has brought a great deal of transparency to the way that Wales is governed, and particularly to the way that money is allocated and dealt with. It is important when we consider any budget that we are able to put our finger on a line and know where that money is going and why it is going to that particular area. We can then hold the Executive to account, and the people who are not Assembly Members, and those bodies who have an interest in our proceedings, are also able to follow where the expenditure is going. These changes assist that transparency to a large extent. I have reservations about money going into administration costs that relate to economic development or transport, planning and the environment. As long as we are assured that there will be a separate budget line for those transactions that is easily identified within the budget, we can maintain that transparent process.

Fel y pleidiau eraill, cefnogwn y cynnig hwn, am mai mater technegol ydyw. Y peth pwysig mewn unrhyw broses gyllideb, ac yn sicr yn y broses gyllideb y mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn dechrau ei datblygu, yw sicrhau eglurder. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi dod â llawer o eglurder i’r ffordd y llywodraethir Cymru, ac yn enwedig yn y ffordd y dyrennir arian ac ymdrinnir ag ef. Pan ystyriwn unrhyw gyllideb, mae’n bwysig rhoi ein bys ar linell a gwybod i ble mae’r arian yn mynd a pham bod yr arian yn mynd i’r maes penodol hwnnw. Wedyn, mae’r Weithrediaeth yn atebol inni, a gall y bobl nad ydynt yn Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, a’r cyrff hynny sydd â diddordeb yn ein trafodion, ddilyn i ble y caiff yr arian ei wario hefyd. Mae’r newidiadau hyn yn cynorthwyo’r eglurder hwnnw i raddau helaeth. Mae amheuon gennyf am wario arian ar gostau gweinyddol sydd yn gysylltiedig â datblygu gwledig neu drafnidiaeth, cynllunio a’r amgylchedd. Cyhyd ag y cawn ein sicrhau y bydd llinell cyllideb ar wahân ar gyfer y trafodion sydd yn hawdd i’w gweld o fewn y gyllideb, gallwn gynnal y broses eglur honno.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 99

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I am concerned about the underspend that has occurred in previous years in the health service, particularly last year when there was an underspend of £45 million. That concerned me greatly and I imagine that people working in the health service will be surprised and disappointed that there has not been a full spend.

Yr wyf yn poeni am y tanwario sydd wedi digwydd yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn enwedig y llynedd pan danwariwyd £45 miliwn. Yr oedd hynny’n fy mhoeni yn fawr a dychmygaf y bydd y ffaith na fu gwariant llawn yn syfrdanu ac yn siomi pobl sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd.

On the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, there was some dispute about how that money was allocated in the first instance because it was allocated on the basis of the Barnett formula. However, it would have been much fairer to allocate that money on the basis of the number of employees in the coal industry rather than on the basis of the population in Wales as a whole. I am concerned that it appears that that money was not spent in 1998-99 and was carried forward into 1999-2000 and again into this year. The Valleys rely on regeneration that this money could achieve and it is vital to ensure that this money, although not sufficient, is spent to its full potential in the Valleys. I would like the Finance Secretary to assure me that it will all be spent this year instead of carrying it forward.

Ynglŷn ag Ymddiriedolaeth Adfywio’r Meysydd Glo, bu rhywfaint o anghydfod am sut y dyrannwyd yr arian hwnnw yn y lle cyntaf oherwydd fe’i dyrannwyd ar sail fformwla Barnett. Fodd bynnag, byddai wedi bod yn llawer tecach dyrannu’r arian hwnnw ar sail nifer y gweithwyr yn y diwydiant glo yn hytrach nag ar sail poblogaeth Cymru gyfan. Yr wyf yn poeni iddi ymddangos na wariwyd arian yn 1998-1999 ac iddo gael ei ddwyn ymlaen i 1999-2000 ac eto i eleni. Mae’r Cymoedd yn dibynnu ar waith adfywio y gallai’r arian hwn ei gyflawni ac mae’n hanfodol sicrhau y caiff yr arian hwn, er nad yw’n ddigonol, ei wario i’w lawn botensial yn y Cymoedd. Hoffwn i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid fy sicrhau y caiff yr holl arian ei wario eleni yn lle ei ddwyn ymlaen.

Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 100

Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Thank you Geraint for your comments on the Coalfields Regeneration Trust. I am responsible for setting budgets, but I am not responsible for spending them. However, I will make inquiries about the underspend and the format of expenditure in that area and I will place my findings on the intranet to give you assurances. On health, you mentioned an underspend of around £50 million, which is a small figure in terms of the NHS, but like you, I am concerned that there should be a proper budgetary process in place. No-one wants large underspends in any of the budget areas because you try to organise the budget process properly by looking at what is required during a given period.

Diolch i chi Geraint am eich sylwadau ar Ymddiriedolaeth Adfywio’r Meysydd Glo. Yr wyf yn gyfrifol am bennu cyllidebau, ond nid wyf yn gyfrifol am eu gwario. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ymholi ynglŷn â’r tanwario a fformat y gwariant yn y maes hwnnw a byddaf yn rhoi fy nghanfyddiadau ar y fewnrwyd er mwyn eich sicrhau. Ynglŷn ag iechyd, crybwyllasoch danwario o tua £50 miliwn, sydd yn ffigur bach o ran yr NHS, ond fel chithau, yr wyf yn awyddus y dylid sefydlu proses gyllideb briodol. Nid oes neb am weld tanwariannau mawr mewn unrhyw faes cyllidebol am eich bod yn ceisio trefnu’r broses gyllideb yn iawn drwy edrych ar yr hyn sydd ei angen yn ystod cyfnod penodedig.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 100

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

You said that you were responsible for setting budgets and not spending them, but you are keen on tracking how that money is spent. Forgive the pun, but will you assure me that you are tracking how Railtrack is spending the £500,000 allocated to it to upgrade the north Wales line, which it has failed to spend because it has not yet put that work in place? Will you assure me that you will track how that money is spent and ensure that that money, which was given to Railtrack for a specific and much needed purpose, is not used for something else?

Dywedasoch mai chi sydd yn gyfrifol am bennu cyllidebau ond nad chi sydd yn gyfrifol am eu gwario, ond yr ydych yn awyddus i weld sut y caiff yr arian hwn ei wario. Maddeuwch y mwyseirio; ond a allwch fy sicrhau eich bod yn tracio sut y mae Railtrack yn gwario’r £500,000 a ddyrannwyd iddo er mwyn gwella lein gogledd Cymru, nad yw wedi’i wario am nad yw wedi dechrau’r gwaith eto? A allwch fy sicrhau y byddwch yn edrych i weld sut y gwarir yr arian hwnnw ac y byddwch yn sicrhau na chaiff yr arian, a roddwyd i Railtrack am bwrpas penodol ac angenrheidiol, ei ddefnyddio am rywbeth arall?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 100

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I will consult with my colleague, the Secretary for Environment, Planning and Transport on that. We will make the necessary inquiries on that money and report back to the Chamber.

Ymgynghoraf â’m cyd-Aelod, Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ynglŷn â hynny. Gwnawn yr ymholiadau angenrheidiol ynglŷn â’r arian hwnnw gan adrodd yn ôl i’r Siambr.

On Alun Cairns’s question on the Wales European Funding Office, I will make the necessary inquiries about the additional expenditure levels and place that response on the intranet for the benefit of all Assembly Members. There are issues relating to the expenditure for WEFO and we would like to ensure transparency in those key areas.

Ynglŷn â chwestiwn Alun Cairns am Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru, gwnaf yr ymholiadau angenrheidiol am y lefelau gwariant ychwanegol a byddaf yn rhoi’r ateb hwnnw ar y fewnrwyd er budd pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad. Ceir materion sydd yn ymwneud â gwariant ar gyfer Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru a hoffem sicrhau bod eglurder yn y meysydd allweddol hynny.

Peter Black is right and I will be showing separate administrative matters with different budget expenditure lines as well as the transfers and the main expenditure groups so that there is absolute clarity with the levels on the budget expenditure lines to show what is happening in terms of expenditure.

Mae Peter Black yn gywir a byddaf yn dangos materion gweinyddol ar wahân â llinellau gwariant cyllideb gwahanol yn ogystal â’r trosglwyddiadau a’r prif grwpiau gwariant fel bod y lefelau ar y llinellau gwariant cyllideb yn hollol glir ac yn dangos beth sydd yn digwydd o ran gwariant.

To answer Ieuan’s question on agriculture, I assure him that the European funding has been put with the economic development main expenditure group because I want that funding to be transparent. That does not detract from anything that involves the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee or any expenditure within that budgetary area.

Er mwyn ateb cwestiwn Ieuan ynglŷn ag amaethyddiaeth, gallaf ei sicrhau bod yr arian o Ewrop wedi’i roi gyda’r prif grŵp gwariant datblygu economaidd gan fy mod am i’r arian hwnnw fod yn eglur. Nid yw hynny yn tynnu oddi ar unrhyw beth sydd yn ymwneud â’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig neu unrhyw wariant o fewn y maes cyllidebol hwnnw.

On Glyn’s point, it would have been nice for the Committees to have had the opportunity to discuss prior to the letter so that the Assembly Secretary could consider their points. We have tried to do that in the past, but in this instance, the timescale did not allow it. However, Committee Chairs have received the appropriate letters. I understand your points on the overall budget position, but I assure you that they are technical transfers.

Ynglŷn â phwynt Glyn, byddai wedi bod yn dda pe byddai’r Pwyllgorau wedi cael y cyfle i drafod cyn y llythyr fel y gallai’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad ystyried eu sylwadau. Ceisiasom wneud hynny yn y gorffennol, ond yn yr achos hwn, nid oedd yr amserlen yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd. Fodd bynnag, mae Cadeiryddion y Pwyllgorau wedi derbyn y llythyrau priodol. Deallaf eich sylwadau am sefyllfa gyffredinol y gyllideb, ond gallaf eich sicrhau mai trosglwyddiadau technegol ydynt.

Cynnig Edwina Hart t. 101

Motion Edwina Hart p. 101

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 102

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 102

Dyna ddiwedd y busnes am heddiw. Diolch am eich cydweithrediad.

That concludes the business for today. Thank you for your co-operation.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 4.55 p.m.

The session ended at 4.55 p.m.