Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 30 Ionawr 2001
Tuesday 30 January 2001
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
- 3Effaith Newidiadau mewn Trethiant ar Deuluoedd mewn GwaithEffect of Changes in Taxation on Working Families
- 4Gwella Llif Gwybodaeth a Pha Mor Agored yw’r CynulliadImproving Openness and the Flow of Information in the Assembly
- 6Rhaglenni Ail-hyfforddi GweithwyrEmployee Retraining Programmes
- 8Cydlynu Polisïau ar gyfer Gogledd CymruCo-ordinating Policy for North Wales
- 10Achosion Sifil yn erbyn Cyrff a Ariennir gan y CynulliadCivil Actions against Bodies Funded by the Assembly
- 12‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf’‘Putting Wales First’
- 15Gwneud Cabinet y Cynulliad yn Fwy TryloywExpanding the Transparency of the Assembly Cabinet
- 16Darparu Gwybodaeth i Weinidogion y Cabinet gan Weision SifilProvision of Information to Cabinet Ministers by Civil Servants
- 17Integreiddio Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol â Pholisïau EraillIntegrating Social Inclusion with Other Policies
- 19Dylanwadu ar Ddeddfwriaeth SylfaenolInfluencing Primary Legislation
- 21Datganiad ar Ddiswyddiadau yn Valeo, GorseinonStatement on Redundancies at Valeo, Gorseinon
- 32Datganiad ar y Daeargryn yn GujaratStatement on the Earthquake in Gujarat
- 39Datganiad ar Ddarparu Llety ar gyfer Ceiswyr LlochesStatement on Housing Asylum Seekers
- 49Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 50Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 52Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 53Cymeradwyo’r Datganiad Busnes Tri MisApproval of the Three-month Business Statement 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 54Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
- 54Datblygiad Proffesiynol AthrawonThe Professional Development of Teachers 7 o bleidleisiau7 votes
- 90Datganiad ar Ysbyty Alder HeyStatement on Alder Hey Hospital
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cymeradwyo’r Datganiad Busnes Tri MisApproval of the Three-month Business Statement | ||||
| CynnigMotion | 37 | 0 | 9 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Datblygiad Proffesiynol AthrawonThe Professional Development of Teachers | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 23 | 0 | 31 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 23 | 0 | 31 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 23 | 0 | 31 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 23 | 0 | 31 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 5Amendment 5 | 23 | 3 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 7Amendment 7 | 53 | 0 | 1 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion | 31 | 0 | 23 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions to the First Minister
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3
Mae’r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Helen Mary Jones wedi’i dynnu yn ôl.
The first question by Helen Mary Jones has been withdrawn.
Effaith Newidiadau mewn Trethiant ar Deuluoedd mewn Gwaith
Effect of Changes in Taxation on Working Families
What discussions has the First Minister had with Treasury Ministers and officials about the effect of changes in taxation on working families in Wales since July 1997? (OAQ9148)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Prif Weinidog Cymru gyda Gweinidogion a swyddogion y Trysorlys ynghylch effaith y newidiadau mewn trethiant ar deuluoedd mewn gwaith yng Nghymru ers Gorffennaf 1997? (OAQ9148)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
I meet the Chancellor from time to time and we discuss a range of issues affecting Wales, most notably and recently when he launched his pre-budget consultation for the whole of the UK in Bridgend. I fully support any taxation plans that have the effect of reducing the burden on working families in Wales.
Byddaf yn cyfarfod â’r Canghellor o bryd i’w gilydd a byddwn yn trafod amrywiaeth o faterion sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru, yn fwyaf penodol a diweddar pan lansiodd ei ymgynghoriad cyn y gyllideb ar gyfer y DU gyfan ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Cefnogaf yn llawn unrhyw gynlluniau trethiant a fydd yn lleihau’r pwysau ar deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio yng Nghymru.
I am glad to hear that. The tax system has been made fairer for families over the last three years and it is helping to make work pay. Do you agree that it is one of the reasons why unemployment in my constituency is now at only 3 per cent? Do you further agree that the 67,000 hard-working families in Wales would suffer a big tax hike if the working families tax credit, and the childcare tax credit, were to be abolished as suggested by the Tories in Westminster?
Yr wyf yn falch o glywed hynny. Gwnaethpwyd y system drethiant yn decach ar gyfer teuluoedd yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf ac mae’n cynorthwyo i sicrhau gwerth wrth weithio. A gytunwch mai dyna un o’r rhesymau pam fod diweithdra yn fy etholaeth i ond yn 3 y cant ar hyn o bryd? A gytunwch ymhellach y byddai’r 67,000 o deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio’n galed yng Nghymru yn dioddef codiad treth mawr pe bai’r credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio, a’r credyd treth gofal plant, yn cael eu dileu fel a gynigir gan y Torïaid yn San Steffan?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
I do not want to comment on what is happening in Westminster. We must concentrate on what is happening here. I am a big fan of the working families tax credit. The tax and benefit measures since 1997 have lifted some 60,000 children out of poverty. That is a wholly laudable achievement.
Nid wyf am sôn am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn San Steffan. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yma. Yr wyf yn gefnogwr mawr o’r credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio. Mae’r mesurau treth a budd-daliadau ers 1997 wedi newid sefyllfa tua 60,000 o blant a oedd yn byw mewn tlodi. Mae hynny’n gyflawniad canmoladwy iawn.
Will the First Minister confirm that the take-up rates for the various tax credits launched since 1997 have been relatively disappointing? Will he undertake to ask the Treasury to consult regarding the increasing burdens of red tape that small businesses are having to shoulder as a result of administering these credits?
A gadarnha’r Prif Weinidog y bu’r cyfraddau derbyn ar gyfer y credydau treth amrywiol a lansiwyd ers 1997 yn gymharol siomedig? A wnaiff ef ymrwymo i ofyn i’r Trysorlys ymgynghori ynglŷn â baich gynyddol biwrocratiaeth y mae’n rhaid i fusnesau bach ei ysgwyddo o ganlyniad i weinyddu’r credydau hyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
That is two questions in one. How the maximum number of people can be persuaded to claim almost any form of benefit or tax credit is a problem. It can probably only be solved by having advisers with qualifications such as a PhD in astronomy, to find a way through the forms to claim a benefit or a tax credit. The concentration on the message of making work pay over the past few years has persuaded people to look closely—not yet closely enough—at their eligibility when they take up a job and when they cease to be on welfare. It is likely that they will be better off. Even though they might not be able to calculate it to the nearest penny or to when they first start work after a long period on welfare, it is very likely that they will be better off in year one and certainly be better off after that. The working families tax credit combined with various other initiatives such as the minimum wage have almost certainly persuaded people to move from a benefit culture to a make-work-pay culture.
Mae hynny’n ddau gwestiwn mewn un. Mae sut y gellir darbwyllo y nifer mwyaf posibl o bobl i wneud cais am unrhyw fath o fudd-dâl neu gredyd treth yn broblem. Mae’n debyg y gellir ei datrys dim ond drwy gael cynghorwyr â chymwysterau fel PhD mewn astronomeg, i weithio eu ffordd drwy’r ffurflenni i wneud cais am fudd-dâl neu gredyd treth. Mae canolbwyntio ar y neges o sicrhau gwerth wrth weithio dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf wedi darbwyllo pobl i edrych yn ofalus—ond nid yn ddigon gofalus hyd yn hyn—ar eu cymhwyster pan fyddant yn cychwyn swydd a phan fyddant yn rhoi’r gorau i dderbyn budd-daliadau. Mae’n debygol y byddant yn well eu byd. Er na fyddant efallai yn gallu ei gyfrifo i’r geiniog agosaf neu i’r adeg pan fyddant yn dechrau gweithio wedi cyfnod hir o dderbyn budd-daliadau, mae’n debygol iawn y byddant yn well eu byd yn y flwyddyn gyntaf ac yn bendant yn well eu byd wedi hynny. Mae’r credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio ynghyd â mentrau amrywiol eraill fel yr isafswm cyflog bron yn sicr wedi darbwyllo pobl i symud o ddiwylliant budd-daliadau i ddiwylliant gwerth wrth weithio.
Gwella Llif Gwybodaeth a Pha Mor Agored yw’r Cynulliad
Improving Openness and the Flow of Information in the Assembly
What action is the First Minister taking to improve openness and the flow of information in the National Assembly for Wales? (OAQ9147)
Pa gamau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn eu cymryd i wneud Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn fwy agored ac i wella llif gwybodaeth yn y Cynulliad? (OAQ9147)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
Openness is our hallmark. When the chamois leather of democracy meets the windolene of accountability in the Assembly, it can be said that we have much healthier politics in Wales.
Mae bod yn agored yn nod i ni. Pan fydd democratiaeth yn cwrdd ag atebolrwydd yn y Cynulliad, gellid dweud bod gennym wleidyddiaeth llawer iachach yng Nghymru.
When will the First Minister bring forward the revised protocol on freedom of information that was promised in the partnership agreement?
Pryd y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn datblygu’r protocol diwygiedig ar ryddid gwybodaeth a addawyd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I believe that the revised protocol will be available for consultation by the end of this month. It was not available at the end of last year because of the delays in the finalisation of the Bill that eventually became the Freedom of Information Act 2000. We did not know what platform we were working from until just before Christmas. Now that we know, we will be in a position to publish it—in the sense of it going out for consultation and being given to Assembly Members—shortly, certainly by the end of this month, although it may not have full legal effect until shortly after that.
Credaf y bydd y protocol diwygiedig ar gael i ymgynghori arno erbyn diwedd y mis. Nid oedd ar gael ddiwedd y llynedd oherwydd cafwyd oedi wrth gwblhau’r Mesur a ddatblygodd yn Ddeddf Rhyddid Gwybodaeth 2000. Ni wyddem beth fyddai sylfaen ein gwaith tan ychydig cyn y Nadolig. Gan ein bod yn gwybod erbyn hyn, byddwn mewn sefyllfa i’w gyhoeddi—yn yr ystyr y bydd ymgynghoriad arno ac y caiff ei roi i Aelodau’r Cynulliad—yn fuan, yn bendant erbyn diwedd y mis, er efallai na welir ei effaith gyfreithiol lawn tan ychydig wedi hynny.
As the special advisers soon to be appointed to the Liberal Democrat Cabinet members will be liasing with the Liberal Democrat party, what consideration has the First Minister given to the fact that this will better equip the Liberal Democrats to beat Labour candidates in any forthcoming election? Is that a good use of public funds?
Gan y bydd y cynghorwyr arbennig a benodir cyn hir i aelodau Cabinet y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn trafod â phlaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, pa ystyriaeth a roddodd y Prif Weinidog i’r ffaith y bydd hyn yn rhoi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn gwell sefyllfa i guro ymgeiswyr Llafur mewn unrhyw etholiad yn y dyfodol? A yw hynny’n ddefnydd da o arian cyhoeddus?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
Order. Although that is an inventive supplementary, the question is about openness and the free flow of information in the National Assembly. It does not refer to any election that may or may not be imminent. There is no election here.
Trefn. Er bod eich cwestiwn atodol yn greadigol, mae’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol yn ymwneud â bod yn agored a llif gwybodaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Ni chyfeiria at unrhyw etholiad a allai fod ar y gorwel. Nid oes etholiad yma.
It is about the use of the advisers and the information that they may provide to the Liberal Democrat party.
Mae’n ymwneud â defnyddio cynghorwyr a’r wybodaeth y gallant ei darparu i blaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I heard what it was about. It was not relevant as a supplementary to this question. The First Minister may answer what parts he thinks are relevant.
Deallais ei bwynt. Nid oedd yn berthnasol fel cwestiwn atodol i’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol. Gall y Prif Weinidog ateb pa ran bynnag sydd yn berthnasol yn ei dyb ef.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
Special advisers have been a part of the British political system since the 1960s and the Harold Wilson Government. The terms on which they are appointed are different from those for standard civil servants. Their numbers have risen consistently throughout the periods of Conservative and Labour Governments. The provision for them to have a particular duty to communicate, for instance, with party officials and be involved in party conference arrangements and so forth, makes them different from regular civil servants. When there is a partnership government, as in Scotland and Wales, no one party can have a monopoly on those special advisers. Beyond that, there is no difference between the special advisers appointed within the Assembly and those appointed under Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan or Tony Blair.
Bu cynghorwyr arbennig yn rhan o system wleidyddol Prydain ers y 1960au a Llywodraeth Harold Wilson. Mae’r amodau y cânt eu penodi arnynt yn wahanol i’r rheini ar gyfer gweision sifil safonol. Mae eu niferoedd wedi cynyddu’n gyson yn ystod cyfnodau Llywodraethau Ceidwadol a Llafur. Mae’r amod sydd yn rhoi dyletswydd arbennig arnynt i gyfathrebu, er enghraifft, gyda swyddogion pleidiau a chymryd rhan mewn trefniadau cynadleddau pleidiau ac ati, yn eu gwneud yn wahanol i weision sifil arferol. Pan geir llywodraeth bartneriaeth, fel yn yr Alban ac yng Nghymru, ni all un blaid fod â monopoli ar y cynghorwyr arbennig hynny. Heblaw hynny, nid oes gwahaniaeth rhwng y cynghorwyr arbennig a benodir o fewn y Cynulliad a’r rhai hynny a benodwyd o dan Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan neu Tony Blair.
In the interest of openness and the flow of information, will the First Minister tell us what, in his view, are the qualities of his Deputy?
Yn enw bod yn agored a llif gwybodaeth, a ddyweda’r Prif Weinidog wrthym beth, yn ei farn ef, yw rhinweddau ei Ddirprwy?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
That is not relevant to the opening question. The election of the leader of the Liberal Democrat party is decided by an open vote of its members, in exactly the same way as Rod Richards beat Nick Bourne in an election of Tory party members. No doubt Rod would like to be back where he used to be. This is his way of wanting to re-play that election. I am sure that Nick Bourne is not about to give him that opportunity.
Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’r cwestiwn agoriadol. Caiff arweinydd plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ei ethol drwy bleidlais agored gan ei haelodau, yn union yn yr un ffordd ag y curodd Rod Richards Nick Bourne drwy etholiad ymysg aelodau plaid y Torïaid. Yr wyf yn sicr yr hoffai Rod fod yn ôl lle yr arferai fod. Dyma sut yr hoffai ef ail gynnal yr etholiad hwnnw. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad yw Nick Bourne am roi’r cyfle hwnnw iddo.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
That discussion, both the question and answer, was irrelevant. I do not blame the First Minister, because he was answering a question that was not relevant to the original question. I ask Members to relate their supplementary questions, if only tangentially, to the matters in hand.
Yr oedd y drafodaeth honno, y cwestiwn a’r ateb, yn amherthnasol. Nid wyf yn beio’r Prif Weinidog, oherwydd atebodd gwestiwn nad oedd yn berthnasol i’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau atodol sydd yn berthnasol i’r materion dan sylw, ac sydd o leiaf yn cyffwrdd â’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol.
Rhaglenni Ail-hyfforddi Gweithwyr
Employee Retraining Programmes
Will the First Minister make a statement on whether the Business Partnership Council has considered employee retraining programmes? (OAQ9154)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad i ddweud a yw’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes wedi ystyried rhaglenni ail-hyfforddi gweithwyr? (OAQ9154)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
The Business Partnership Council does not discuss individual programmes in detail. Its role is to liase and consult with the business community on strategic issues and policies of major interest to the Assembly and its social partners in the good governance of Wales.
Nid yw’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes yn trafod rhaglenni unigol yn fanwl. Ei rôl yw trafod ac ymgynghori â’r gymuned fusnes ar faterion a pholisïau strategol o ddiddordeb mawr i’r Cynulliad a’i bartneriaid cymdeithasol wrth lywodraethu Cymru’n dda.
I would like to plead for support for retraining. Llwybr/Pathway, a supported employment agency, is part of Mencap. It matches employment aspirations of people with disabilities to the needs of local companies. It acts as a job coach to the individual organising training and carrying out administration. What support can you give such an agency to ensure that employment is spread throughout our communities and for all ages and abilities of people? Or will you be appointing a special adviser?
Hoffwn bledio dros gael cefnogaeth i ail-hyfforddi. Mae Llwybr/Pathway, sef asiantaeth gyflogi a gynorthwyir, yn rhan o Mencap. Mae’n defnyddio dyheadau cyflogaeth pobl ag anableddau i gwrdd ag anghenion cwmnïau lleol. Mae’n gweithredu fel hyfforddwr swydd i’r sawl sydd yn trefnu hyfforddiant ac yn gweinyddu. Pa gymorth y gallwch ei roi i asiantaeth o’r fath i sicrhau y caiff cyflogaeth ei ledaenu drwy ein cymunedau ac ar gyfer pobl o bob oed a gallu? Neu a fyddwch yn penodi cynghorydd arbennig?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
That was a good supplementary question, Brian, until it was spoilt by the last few words. There is no point in trying to sneak in these little issues when your previous remarks displayed a genuine interest. These are matters on the margin between what is devolved and what is not devolved. On the principle of social inclusion, we take a strong interest in special or supported opportunities of the type that you may get in Remploy or in community-based schemes such as Llwybr/Pathway. The main responsibility for that lies with the Department for Education and Employment. However, I support similar employment schemes because they come within our social inclusion agenda.
Yr oedd hwnnw’n gwestiwn atodol da, Brian, tan y’i difethwyd gan yr ychydig eiriau olaf. Nid oes pwynt ceisio codi’r materion bach hyn ar ôl ichi ddangos diddordeb gwirioneddol drwy eich sylwadau blaenorol. Mae’r rhain yn faterion ar y ffin rhwng yr hyn a ddatganolwyd a’r hyn nas datganolwyd. O ran egwyddor cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr mewn cyfleoedd arbennig neu gyfleoedd a gynorthwyir o’r math y gellir eu cael yn Remploy neu mewn cynlluniau cymunedol megis Llwybr/Pathway. Yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth sydd â’r prif gyfrifoldeb dros hynny. Fodd bynnag, cefnogaf gynlluniau cyflogaeth tebyg oherwydd eu bod yn rhan o’n hagenda cynhwysiant cymdeithasol.
With regard to employer retraining, I will ask a question regarding AB Connectors in Abercynon in my constituency. Last week, the company announced that, due to a fall in orders, it would be making about 20 per cent of the workforce redundant. I visited the factory yesterday and was told that this would be a short-term measure and, thankfully, closure is not on the agenda. However, what assistance is the Assembly and its sponsored public bodies able to give this company and, more importantly, to the workers who will be affected and who may need support, advice and opportunities for retraining?
O ran ailhyfforddi cyflogwyr, gofynnaf gwestiwn yn ymwneud ag AB Connectors yn Abercynon yn fy etholaeth i. Yr wythnos diwethaf, datganodd y cwmni, oherwydd gostyngiad mewn archebion, y byddai’n diswyddo tua 20 y cant o’r gweithlu. Ymwelais â’r ffatri ddoe a dywedwyd wrthyf mai mesur tymor byr fyddai hyn a, diolch byth, nid yw cau’r ffatri ar yr agenda. Fodd bynnag, pa gymorth y gall y Cynulliad a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo ei roi i’r cwmni hwn ac, yn bwysicach, i’r gweithwyr yr effeithir arnynt a allai fod angen cefnogaeth, cyngor a chyfleoedd ar gyfer ailhyfforddi?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I have not visited the AB Connectors factory in Abercynon for a few decades. The key issue when a company declares redundancies because of a loss of orders—if there is a chance of the business being re-built, but that requires a certain amount of new technology and new skills to go with that new technology—is that the training and enterprise council can provide a package of assistance to upgrade the skills of the workforce to take on additional work if it means new machinery being brought in. It can also be covered by safeguarding employment measures through regional selective assistance. I hope that these redundancies are a short-term measure. Unfortunately, among sub-contracted electronics component manufacturers, we tend to get this type of ebb and flow of employment: an order comes in, it lasts for two years, it is not repeated so there is short-term loss of jobs, and you try to balance four or five different contracts at any one time hoping to provide a minimum level of stability but it does not always work. However, there is a package of assistance available to help cover this type of situation.
Nid wyf wedi ymweld â ffatri AB Connectors yn Abercynon ers ychydig ddegawdau. Y mater allweddol pan fydd cwmni yn cyhoeddi diswyddiadau yn dilyn cwymp mewn archebion—os oes siawns ailadeiladu’r busnes, ond bod hynny’n gofyn am swm penodol o dechnoleg newydd a sgiliau newydd i fynd gyda’r dechnoleg newydd—yw y gall y cyngor hyfforddi a menter ddarparu pecyn cymorth i wella sgiliau’r gweithlu i ymgymryd â gwaith ychwanegol pe bai hyn yn golygu defnyddio peiriannau newydd. Hefyd gellir ei gwmpasu drwy ddiogelu mesurau cyflogi drwy gymorth dewisol rhanbarthol. Gobeithiaf mai mesur tymor byr yw’r diswyddiadau hyn. Yn anffodus, yr ydym yn dueddol o gael y math hwn o gyflogaeth llanw a thrai ymysg gweithgynhyrchwyr cydrannau trydanol a isgontractir: derbyniant archeb, bydd yn parhau am ddwy flynedd, ni chaiff ei ailadrodd a cheir colledion swyddi yn y tymor byr, a byddwch yn ceisio delio â phedwar neu bum contract gwahanol ar unrhyw adeg benodol gan obeithio darparu rhywfaint o sefydlogrwydd ond nid yw hynny’n gweithio bob amser. Fodd bynnag, mae pecyn cymorth ar gael i gynorthwyo i ddelio â’r math hwn o sefyllfa.
Cydlynu Polisïau ar gyfer Gogledd Cymru
Co-ordinating Policy for North Wales
Will the First Minister make a statement on his responsibilities for the co-ordination of policy for north Wales? (OAQ9149)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch ei gyfrifoldebau dros gydlynu polisïau ar gyfer gogledd Cymru? (OAQ9149)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
I refer you to the responses I gave to your similar question on 31 October and Tom Middlehurst’s question on 14 November. In my role as Minister with responsibility for the co-ordination of Government policy in north Wales, I will ensure that the north is in no way disadvantaged by the absence of any Member with a north Wales constituency responsibility in the Cabinet.
Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at yr ymatebion a roddais i’ch cwestiwn tebyg ar 31 Hydref a chwestiwn Tom Middlehurst ar 14 Tachwedd. Yn fy rôl fel Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros gydlynu polisïau’r Llywodraeth yng ngogledd Cymru, byddaf yn sicrhau nad yw’r gogledd dan unrhyw anfantais am nad oes Aelod gyda chyfrifoldeb am etholaeth yng ngogledd Cymru yn y Cabinet.
With regard to economic development, to what extent are Welsh Development Agency officials at liberty to discuss its budget, strategic plan and objectives for north Wales with local authorities? In addition, have you co-ordinated those discussions?
O ran datblygu economaidd, i ba raddau mae swyddogion Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn rhydd i drafod ei gyllideb, cynllun strategol ac amcanion ar gyfer gogledd Cymru gydag awdurdodau lleol? Yn ogystal, ai chi sydd wedi cydlynu’r trafodaethau hyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
There is no reason at all why the WDA’s north Wales area office, which has a substantial degree of delegated power, should not discuss joint working with local authorities in north Wales on projects or the prospects of land availability in an area. No particular points of difficulty have been brought to my attention. However, if you have a difficulty to which you would like to draw to my attention, then no doubt you will write to me.
Nid oes rheswm o gwbl pam na ddylai swyddfa ranbarthol y WDA yng ngogledd Cymru, sydd â chryn bŵer dirprwyedig, beidio â thrafod cydweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol yng ngogledd Cymru ar brosiectau neu’r posibiliadau o dir sydd ar gael mewn ardal benodol. Ni thynnwyd fy sylw at unrhyw anawsterau penodol. Fodd bynnag, os cewch anhawster yr hoffech dynnu fy sylw ato, hyderaf y byddwch yn ysgrifennu ataf.
It was a dry January, but the memories of last autumn’s flooding in north Wales are still fresh. I welcome Sue Essex’s statement on a £25 million package for flood defences. Can you confirm that flooding is still high on your north Wales agenda?
Yr oedd Ionawr yn fis sych, ond mae atgofion llifogydd yr hydref diwethaf yng ngogledd Cymru yn dal yn glir yn y cof. Croesawaf ddatganiad Sue Essex ar becyn £25 miliwn ar gyfer amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd. A allwch gadarnhau bod llifogydd yn dal yn uchel ar eich agenda ar gyfer gogledd Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
It certainly is. Consideration of funding assistance to the flood-affected areas of north Wales, in terms of local authorities and the Environment Agency, continues to be a subject of discussion between Edwina Hart, Sue Essex and myself.
Gallaf, yn bendant. Mae ystyried cymorth ariannol i’r ardaloedd yng ngogledd Cymru yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y llifogydd, yn nhermau awdurdodau lleol ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, yn parhau i fod yn bwnc trafod rhwng Edwina Hart, Sue Essex a minnau.
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 9
A ydych yn ymwybodol mai dim ond 11 o gyn-lowyr yn y Gogledd sydd wedi cael eu hasesu’n feddygol ar gyfer iawndal? A ydych yn cydnabod bod hynny’n sgandal? A wnewch chi gondemnio sylwadau Hugh Bayley yn y Senedd ddoe, pan wrthododd gais gan Aelodau Seneddol Cymru i ddiddymu’r cynllun dieflig i adfachu taliadau budd-dâl oddi wrth gyn-lowyr?
Are you aware that in north Wales only 11 former miners have been medically assessed for compensation? Do you acknowledge that that is a scandal? Will you condemn Hugh Bayley’s comments in Parliament yesterday, when he refused a request from Welsh Members of Parliament to abolish the diabolical scheme to clawback compensation payments from former miners?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9
Y sefyllfa, fel yr wyf yn ei deall—ac fe gaiff ei thrafod yn fanylach yn y ddadl ddydd Iau—yw bod ystyriaeth yn cael ei rhoi i’r ffordd orau o ddatrys y broblem hon, sef bod yn rhaid ichi dalu unrhyw iawndal yr ydych yn ei dderbyn yn ôl. Er enghraifft, os ydych yn derbyn iawndal oherwydd eich bod yn dioddef o asbestosis, mae’n rhaid ichi, yn ôl y rheolau, dalu unrhyw iawndal a dderbyniwch yn ôl.
The situation as I understand it—and this will be discussed in greater detail in Thursday’s debate—is that consideration is being given to the best way of resolving this problem, namely that you must repay any compensation you receive. For example, if you receive compensation because you are suffering from asbestosis, according to the rules, you must repay any compensation that you receive.
Gellid anwybyddu hynny o dan amgylchiadau arbennig. Yn y pen draw, nid ydym yn siŵr beth fydd yn digwydd, gan mai hwn yw’r achos mwyaf gerbron llys barn yn hanes cyfreithiol Prydain.
That could be ignored under exceptional circumstances. At the end of the day, we are not sure what will happen, because this is the biggest case to go before the law courts in British legal history.
Sylwais na wnaethoch unrhyw sylwadau ar ddatganiad Hugh Bayley ddoe. Fodd bynnag, a gaf eich atgoffa fod y ceisiadau i adfachu yn golygu bod yn rhaid i lowyr aros o leiaf 12 mis cyn derbyn iawndal. Yn nhermau’r ceisiadau sydd wedi eu hasesu am adfachiad, yn 90 y cant o’r achosion, ni cheir unrhyw adfachiad, ac mewn 10 y cant o’r gweddill, telir swm o £10 yn unig. Mae hynny yn rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar y rhai sydd â’r hawl i dderbyn iawndal. Mae hefyd yn wastraff llwyr o amser y Llywodraeth. A ydych yn cytuno y dylid diddymu’r system?
I noticed that you did not comment on Hugh Bayley’s statement yesterday. However, may I remind you that applications for clawback mean that miners have to wait at least 12 months before they receive compensation. In terms of the applications that have been assessed for clawback, in 90 per cent of those cases no clawback occurs and in 10 per cent of the remainder, a sum of only £10 is paid. That places additional pressure on those people who are entitled to compensation. It is also a total waste of the Government’s time. Do you not agree that the system should be abolished?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Mae Ieuan yn gyfreithiwr. Felly, mae’n deall—fel ei gyd-aelod, Elfyn Llwyd, yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin—beth yw’r broblem. Nid yw’r Llywodraeth yn gweithredu fel llywodraeth yn y sefyllfa hon, ond fel rhan o achos gerbron barnwr a gerbron llys barn. Felly, nid yw dwylo’r Llywodraeth yn hollol rydd. Mae’n gorfod cyflwyno’r achos gerbron barnwr—yr ydych chi’n deall hynny’n well nag unrhyw un arall yn y Cynulliad. Mae’n rhaid dod ag unrhyw beth yr ydych yn ei wneud gerbron y barnwr.
Ieuan is a solicitor. Therefore, he understands—like his colleague, Elfyn Llwyd, in the House of Commons—what the problem is. The Government is not acting as a government in this situation, but as part of a case before a judge and before a law court. Therefore, the Government’s hands are tied. It has to put the case before a judge—you understand that better than anyone else in the Assembly. Anything you do must be brought before the judge.
Cytunaf â llawer o sylwadau Ieuan. Mae’n anodd, os yw’r adfachiad—wedi ystyried faint o fudd-daliadau a dderbyniwyd—yn fach o gymharu â’r gwaith sydd wedi’i wneud a’r amser a gymerwyd i wneud hynny. Yn y pen draw, gall y Llywodraeth benderfynu nad yw’n werth adfachu’r arian hwnnw. Dyna’r sefyllfa sydd yn cael ei hystyried, heb osod cynsail.
I agree with many of Ieuan’s comments. It is difficult, if—having considered how many benefits have been received—the clawback is small compared to all the work and time that has been expended. At the end of the day, the Government could decide that it is not worth clawing-back that money. That is the situation that is being considered, without setting a precedent.
Achosion Sifil yn erbyn Cyrff a Ariennir gan y Cynulliad
Civil Actions against Bodies Funded by the Assembly
Does the First Minister have any plans to meet the Secretary of State for the Home Department on behalf of the Welsh police authorities to discuss the costs of settling civil claims against bodies partly or fully funded by the National Assembly for Wales? (OAQ9161)
A yw Prif Weinidog Cymru yn bwriadu cwrdd â’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref ar ran awdurdodau heddlu Cymru i drafod cost setlo achosion sifil yn erbyn cyrff a ariennir yn rhannol neu’n llwyr gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru? (OAQ9161)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I am grateful for this question as it may help to elicit information about what civil actions the Welsh police authorities are taking against bodies that are partly or fully funded by the National Assembly for Wales. We have no information on that subject. I have no immediate plans to meet the Home Secretary to discuss matters relating to police funding, as I noted in my previous response to oral question (OAQ8734) asked by David Davies on 16 January. During our recent meetings, Edwina Hart and I have noted carefully what the police authorities in Wales have told us about the general levels of funding, but not about this matter.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwn oherwydd y gallai gynorthwyo i ddod o hyd i wybodaeth am ba achosion sifil y mae awdurdodau heddlu Cymru yn eu dwyn yn erbyn cyrff a ariennir yn rhannol neu’n llawn gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Nid oes gennym unrhyw wybodaeth ar y pwnc hwnnw. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau ar hyn o bryd i drafod materion yn ymwneud ag ariannu’r heddlu, fel y nodais yn fy ymateb blaenorol i gwestiwn llafar (OAQ8734) a ofynnodd David Davies ar 16 Ionawr. Yn ystod ein cyfarfodydd diweddar, nododd Edwina Hart a minnau yn ofalus yr hyn y mae awdurdodau’r heddlu yng Nghymru wedi dweud wrthym am lefelau cyffredinol ariannu, ond nid am y mater hwn.
It may be helpful for you to know that over the last three years, North Wales Police Authority alone settled over £500,000 in civil actions. One included a one-off settlement of £207,000 relating to a payment to a former detective officer. Do you agree that Welsh forces are losing experienced and valuable officers as authorities fail to learn from such incidents? Do you agree that this problem is made worse by a piecemeal and non-transparent auditing procedure hindered by legal uncertainties? Will you consider, in collaboration with the Secretary of State for Wales, taking action to improve this situation in order to save officers and taxpayers’ money?
Gallai fod yn ddefnyddiol ichi wybod bod Awdurdod Heddlu Gogledd Cymru, yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf, wedi talu setliadau dros £500,000 mewn achosion sifil. Yr oedd un ohonynt yn cynnwys setliad unwaith ac am byth o £207,000 yn ymwneud â thaliad i gyn dditectif. A gytunwch fod heddluoedd Cymru yn colli swyddogion profiadol a gwerthfawr wrth i’r awdurdodau fethu â dysgu gwersi yn dilyn digwyddiadau o’r fath? A gytunwch y gwaethygir y broblem hon drwy weithdrefn archwilio ddarniog, nad yw’n dryloyw ac a rwystrir gan ansicrwydd cyfreithiol? A wnewch chi ystyried, mewn cydweithrediad ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, gweithredu i wella’r sefyllfa hon er mwyn arbed arian swyddogion a threthdalwyr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I defer to your greater knowledge of what goes on within the North Wales Police Authority compared to my own minuscule knowledge of that organisation. Your point about needing to settle civil actions against former employees is a worry. However, it is up to chief constables in the end to determine their expenditure priorities, not the police authorities. I believe that it falls under the heading of operational decisions. Having made those operational decisions, the forum of the North Wales Police Authority acts as a warning sign if they go in the wrong direction and spend money where they should not.
Ymostyngaf i’ch gwybodaeth ehangach o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd o fewn Awdurdod Heddlu Gogledd Cymru o’i gymharu â’m gwybodaeth bitw fy hun am y sefydliad hwnnw. Mae eich pwynt bod angen setlo achosion sifil yn erbyn cyn-gyflogeion yn bryder. Fodd bynnag, yn y pen draw, cyfrifoldeb prif gwnstabliaid yw penderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau gwariant, nid awdurdodau’r heddlu. Credaf y daw o dan y pennawd ‘penderfyniadau gweithredol’. Wedi gwneud y penderfyniadau gweithredol hynny, mae fforwm Awdurdod Heddlu Gogledd Cymru yn rhybuddio os byddant yn mynd i’r cyfeiriad anghywir ac yn gwario arian lle na ddylent wneud hynny.
What plans do you and the Home Secretary have to meet the costs of potential civil action against Assembly civil servants if they were to be sued for libellous misuse of the internet during working hours?
Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych chi a’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref i dalu costau achos sifil posibl yn erbyn gweision sifil y Cynulliad pe baent yn cael eu herlyn am gamddefnyddio’r rhyngrwyd yn enllibus yn ystod oriau gwaith?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
I have no plans to discuss that matter with Jack Straw. I am not aware that this has hit the radar of the First Minister or of the Home Secretary.
Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau i drafod y mater hwnnw gyda Jack Straw. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod hyn wedi ei godi gyda’r Prif Weinidog na’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref.
Do you regret the rise of the compensation culture and the number of spurious claims that have been brought against serving police officers? Do you think that society should make it clear to criminals that, if they suffer minor injuries as a result of resisting arrest—and they have only themselves to blame—they should not be allowed to waste public time and money by pursuing serious civil actions?
A ydych yn gresynu at y cynnydd yn y diwydiant iawndal a nifer yr hawliadau ffug a wnaethpwyd yn erbyn swyddogion presennol yr heddlu? A gredwch y dylai cymdeithas ei gwneud yn glir i droseddwyr, os byddant yn dioddef mân anafiadau o ganlyniad i wrthod arestiad—a dim ond hwy eu hunain y gellid eu beio—na ddylid caniatáu iddynt wastraffu amser ac arian cyhoeddus drwy ddwyn achosion sifil difrifol?
‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf’
‘Putting Wales First’
Has the programme ‘Putting Wales First’ superseded ‘Betterwales.com’ as the Cabinet’s policy framework? (OAQ9171)
A yw’r rhaglen ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf’ wedi disodli ‘Gwellcymru.com’ fel fframwaith polisi’r Cabinet? (OAQ9171)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
I welcome your microscopic interest in the textual exegesis of the different chapters of ‘Putting Wales First’ and ‘Betterwales.com’, David. I refer you to the response given to this question last week.
Croesawaf eich diddordeb microsgopig yn esboniad testunol gwahanol benodau ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf’ a ‘Gwellcymru.com’, David. Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at yr ymateb a roddwyd i’r cwestiwn hwn yr wythnos diwethaf.
‘Betterwales.com’ makes reference to waiting lists. Will the First Minister take this opportunity to re-affirm his administration’s target to reduce in-patient waiting numbers from the present level of 77,000 to 65,500 by the end of March?
Cyfeiria ‘Gwellcymru.com’ at restrau aros. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i ailddatgan targed ei weinyddiaeth i leihau niferoedd y bobl sydd yn aros i gael eu trin fel cleifion mewnol o’r lefel bresennol o 77,000 i 65,500 erbyn diwedd mis Mawrth?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
I am aware of the problem and the target remains the same. We are increasingly aware of the difficulties that exist in relation to meeting every target. However, the target remains until any further decision is made. This issue is not under discussion at the moment. The winter quarter in the national health service contains many factors that are not always under our control and we will discuss this matter closer to the date.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r broblem ac erys y targed yr un fath. Yr ydym yn gynyddol ymwybodol o’r anawsterau sydd yn bodoli o ran cyrraedd pob targed. Fodd bynnag, erys y targed tan y gwneir unrhyw benderfyniad pellach. Nid yw’r mater hwn yn cael ei drafod ar hyn o bryd. Mae cyfnod y gaeaf yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn cynnwys llawer o ffactorau na allwn bob amser eu rheoli a thrafodwn y mater hwn yn agosach at y dyddiad.
Will you ensure, First Minister, that the Assembly’s commitment to equal opportunities will remain central to all of the Assembly’s policy documents, a matter that is of interest to the Llanelli Women’s Forum which is visiting the Assembly today?
A sicrhewch, Brif Weinidog, y bydd ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i gyfle cyfartal yn parhau’n ganolog i holl ddogfennau polisi’r Cynulliad? Mae hwnnw’n fater sydd o ddiddordeb i Fforwm Merched Llanelli, sydd yn ymweld â’r Cynulliad heddiw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
I confirm that equal opportunities is one of our three fundamental themes not only in the Assembly, which I believe is an equal opportunities based body, although one or two parties have some way to go in that regard. I am sure that they will put that right over the next century or two. As regards the Assembly’s policies, it comes under the same heading as sustainable development and the other guiding lights that govern all that we do.
Cadarnhaf fod cyfle cyfartal yn un o’n tair thema sylfaenol nid yn unig yn y Cynulliad, y credaf ei fod yn gorff sydd yn seiliedig ar gyfle cyfartal, er bod gan un neu ddwy blaid beth ffordd i fynd yn hynny o beth. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnânt unioni hynny yn ystod y ganrif neu ddwy nesaf. O ran polisïau’r Cynulliad, daw o dan yr un pennawd â datblygu cynaliadwy a’r egwyddorion arweiniol eraill sydd yn rheoli popeth a wnawn.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 13
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
We noticed your fudged response earlier about the target, which may or may not alter in the months ahead. Is it still an issue of competence for this administration to reduce the waiting lists by the 13,000 that would be necessary between now and the end of March for it to meet the target? Will you apologise for your Government’s printed figures last week, which show that since the last election there has been a 705 per cent increase in patients waiting over six months to see a consultant? Is that not shameful?
Sylwasom ar eich ymateb amwys yn gynharach am y targed, a allai newid dros y misoedd i ddod. A yw’n parhau i fod yn fater o gymhwyster i’r weinyddiaeth hon leihau’r rhestrau aros o’r 13,000 a fyddai’n angenrheidiol rhwng yn awr a diwedd Mawrth er mwyn iddi gyrraedd y targed? A ymddiheurwch am y ffigurau a gyhoeddodd eich Llywodraeth yr wythnos diwethaf, sydd yn dangos bod cynnydd, ers yr etholiad diwethaf, o 705 y cant yn y cleifion sydd yn aros dros chwe mis i weld ymgynghorydd? Onid yw hynny’n gywilyddus?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
You are reading between the lines of the answer I gave to the previous question. The target remains. We hope to hit it. However, I recognise that if a month goes by in which that target is pointing in the wrong direction, then it will become more difficult to hit it. To that extent, I agree with you. However, our target remains and we hope to reach it.
Yr ydych yn darllen rhwng llinellau’r ateb a roddais i’r cwestiwn blaenorol. Erys y targed. Gobeithiwn ei gyrraedd. Fodd bynnag, cydnabyddaf, os bydd mis yn mynd heibio pan fydd y targed hwnnw yn mynd i’r cyfeiriad anghywir, bydd yn anos inni ei gyrraedd. I’r graddau hynny, cytunaf â chi. Fodd bynnag, erys ein targed a gobeithiwn y byddwn yn ei gyrraedd.
To return to the figures, for which you have not apologised—I know that you do not dispute them, they are your figures—there has been a 705 per cent increase since the last election. The position is far worse than when you came to power. Almost 5,000 people in Wales—4,928 to be exact—have been waiting more than 18 months for an operation. You made light of that the other week and said that it had got out via the media. In England, where the position is bad enough, there are four people waiting. In Wales, there are 4,928. Will you apologise for that?
A dychwelyd at y ffigurau, nad ydych wedi ymddiheuro amdanynt—gwn nad ydych yn eu hamau, eich ffigurau chi ydynt—bu cynnydd o 705 y cant ers yr etholiad diwethaf. Mae’r sefyllfa’n llawer gwaeth na phan ddaethoch i rym. Mae bron i 5,000 o bobl yng Nghymru—4,928 a bod yn union gywir—wedi bod yn aros dros 18 mis am lawdriniaeth. Buoch yn diystyru hynny yr wythnos o’r blaen a dweud ei fod wedi dod allan drwy’r cyfryngau. Yn Lloegr, lle mae’r sefyllfa’n ddigon gwael, mae pedwar o bobl yn aros. Yng Nghymru, mae 4,928. A ymddiheurwch am hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
Let us be clear about what I discussed. I am sure that you do not want to mislead the Assembly or outside observers. When I referred last week to matters relating to the so-called winter health crisis, it was nothing to do with the figures that you have just quoted. Let us be clear about that. If you are referring to that, it is not what I discussed a fortnight ago. Can we be clear on that and agree on what we do agree on? Reaching the targets that have been set out is a problem. I also agree that it is difficult when these figures rise. However, they should be considered against the background of increasing activity in the NHS. The output of the health service may improve and there may be more operations, but you may still have more people waiting for operations or consultations. There are two targets to be measured. Our output is going up and treatments and consultations are increasing, but the waiting lists are also increasing because the demand is growing faster than the provision. [Interruption.]
Gadewch inni fod yn glir am yr hyn a drafodais. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad ydych am gamarwain y Cynulliad na phobl y tu allan. Pan gyfeiriais yr wythnos diwethaf at faterion yn ymwneud ag argyfwng iechyd y gaeaf, nid oedd a wnelo dim â’r ffigur a ddyfynasoch yn awr. Gadewch inni fod yn glir am hynny. Os mai cyfeirio at hynny yr ydych, nid dyna a drafodais bythefnos yn ôl. A allwn fod yn glir ar hynny a chytuno ar yr hyn yr ydym yn cytuno arno? Mae cyrraedd y targedau a bennwyd yn broblem. Cytunaf hefyd ei bod yn anodd pan fydd y ffigurau hyn yn codi. Fodd bynnag, dylid eu hystyried yn erbyn y cefndir o gynnydd mewn gweithgaredd yn yr NHS. Gall allbwn y gwasanaeth iechyd wella ac efallai fod mwy o lawdriniaethau, ond efallai fod mwy o bobl yn parhau i aros am lawdriniaethau neu ymgynghoriadau. Mae dau darged i’w mesur. Mae ein hallbwn yn cynyddu ac mae triniaethau ac ymgynghoriadau yn cynyddu, ond mae’r rhestrau aros hefyd yn cynyddu oherwydd bod y galw yn tyfu’n gynt na’r ddarpariaeth. [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 14
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
Order. If Members persist in barracking, I will not call their supplementaries. Members have one supplementary question or a second question in the leader’s case. That is it. I would be grateful if the First Minister could be heard in silence because then he is more likely to answer.
Trefn. Os bydd yr Aelodau yn parhau i weiddi ar draws ei gilydd, ni fyddaf yn galw am eu cwestiynau atodol. Caiff Aelodau un cwestiwn atodol neu ail gwestiwn yn achos yr arweinydd. Dyna’r cwbl. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gellid gwrando ar y Prif Weinidog mewn tawelwch oherwydd ei fod yn debycach o ateb wedyn.
Gwneud Cabinet y Cynulliad yn Fwy Tryloyw
Expanding the Transparency of the Assembly Cabinet
A yw Prif Weinidog Cymru yn bwriadu gwneud Cabinet y Cynulliad yn fwy tryloyw? (OAQ9159)
Does the First Minister plan to expand the transparency of the Assembly Cabinet? (OAQ9159)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 15
Nid oes gennyf ddim i’w ychwanegu i’r ateb a roddais i Geraint Davies ar 21 Tachwedd.
I have nothing to add to the answer I gave Geraint Davies on 21 November.
Yr wyf am ofyn sut y deliwn â deddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad hwn. A gytunwch y dylid hysbysu Aelodau’r Cynulliad—sydd yn gorff deddfwriaethol—am yr achlysuron hynny pan fo Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu defnyddio’r weithdrefn frys i ddod â deddfwriaeth i rym?
I want to ask how we deal with legislation in this Assembly. Do you agree that Members of the Assembly—which is a legislative body—should be informed of those cases when the Government of Wales intends to use the urgency procedure to make legislation?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 15
Mater i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ac i’r Trefnydd yw deddfwriaeth eilaidd frys. Gall Dai drafod hynny â Jocelyn, a gall hithau ei drafod ag Andrew Davies.
Urgent secondary legislation is a matter for the Business Committee and the Minister for Assembly Business. Dai can discuss that with Jocelyn, and she can discuss it with Andrew Davies.
Tangentially linked to the issue of transparency, will the First Minister tell the Assembly what official duties he will undertake on St David’s Day?
Yn ymylol gysylltiedig â’r mater o dryloywder, a ddywed y Prif Weinidog wrth y Cynulliad pa ddyletswyddau swyddogol y bydd yn ymgymryd â hwy Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
In my official duties, I hope that it will be a day of great excitement and unallayed joy the length and breadth of Wales. There are matters relating to party conferences, which may be going on at the same time, but there are also matters relating to this Assembly. I hope that the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, will visit us. I am sure that several other joyous events will help mark the second national day for Wales since the establishment of the Assembly.
Yn fy nyletswyddau swyddogol, gobeithiaf y bydd yn ddiwrnod o gyffro mawr a llawenydd diddiwedd ar hyd a lled Cymru. Mae materion sydd yn ymwneud â chynadleddau pleidiau, a allai fod yn cael eu cynnal ar yr un pryd, ond hefyd mae materion yn ymwneud â’r Cynulliad hwn. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Taoiseach, Prif Weinidog Gweriniaeth Iwerddon, yn ymweld â ni. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd sawl digwyddiad llawen arall yn cynorthwyo i nodi’r ail ddiwrnod cenedlaethol i Gymru ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad.
Is it not hypocritical that your Assembly Cabinet forces exacting standards of freedom of information on local councils, as outlined in the forthcoming legislation, while it operates a restrictive information policy in comparison? Is it not important that you practice what you preach?
Onid yw’n rhagrithiol bod Cabinet eich Cynulliad yn gorfodi safonau rhyddid gwybodaeth llym ar gynghorau lleol, fel yr amlinellir yn y ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig, tra’n gweithredu polisi gwybodaeth gyfyngol mewn cymhariaeth? Onid yw’n bwysig eich bod yn byw eich proffes?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I do not accept the premise of that question. I do not know of any other legislative body in the United Kingdom, which publishes minutes of Cabinet meetings. Without repeating the simile I used half an hour ago, I do not know what sort of standard of comparison Jonathan is using. Compared with the Cabinet of any other legislative body we are ahead of the game.
Ni dderbyniaf sail y cwestiwn hwnnw. Ni wn am unrhyw gorff deddfwriaethol arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig sydd yn cyhoeddi cofnodion cyfarfodydd y Cabinet. Heb ailadrodd y gymhariaeth a ddefnyddiais hanner awr yn ôl, ni wn sut mae Jonathan yn tynnu cymhariaeth. Yr ydym yn fwy blaengar na Chabinet unrhyw gorff deddfwriaethol arall.
Darparu Gwybodaeth i Weinidogion y Cabinet gan Weision Sifil
Provision of Information to Cabinet Ministers by Civil Servants
Will the First Minister co-ordinate a review of the way in which information is provided to Cabinet Ministers by civil servants? (OAQ9172)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru gydlynu adolygiad o’r ffordd y darperir gwybodaeth i Weinidogion y Cabinet gan weision sifil? (OAQ9172)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I have not received any complaints on this front so it would be a waste of time to conduct a review. Perhaps, Peter, you have some ideas to put to me.
Nid wyf wedi derbyn unrhyw gwynion yn hyn o beth felly byddai’n wastraff amser cynnal adolygiad. Efallai, Peter, bod gennych syniadau i’w cyflwyno imi.
Yes. Does the First Minister regard it as inappropriate for civil servants to be employed as special advisers to brief Liberal Democrat AMs? If he still believes that the Assembly is technically a co-operative body, should not these advisers be briefing AMs of all parties? Would that not be more likely to fit in with this administration’s claim of inclusivity?
Oes. A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn ystyried ei bod yn amhriodol i weision sifil gael eu cyflogi fel cynghorwyr arbennig i friffio Aelodau Cynulliad Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol? Os yw o’r farn o hyd bod y Cynulliad mewn gwirionedd yn gorff cydweithredol, oni ddylai’r cynghorwyr hyn fod yn briffio Aelodau Cynulliad o bob plaid? Oni fyddai hynny’n fwy tebygol o gydweddu â’r ffaith bod y weinyddiaeth hon yn honni bod yn gynhwysol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I am sure that Peter brought that point to the attention of John Major and Margaret Thatcher during the 18 long years of Tory rule when the number of special advisers increased by, I think, 1,100 per cent. Perhaps he was not a member of the Tory party at the time. Special advisers, with rare exceptions, are members of political parties and it is intended that they act in ways that are unacceptable for regular civil servants to act. They are expected to act as a channel for their respective parties. They go to party offices and go with Ministers to party conferences, where a civil servant would not be allowed to go. It is no different for us than it was for the Tories. It seems, Peter, that you have fallen into the Tory trap of thinking that what is acceptable for the Tories is unacceptable for everyone else.
Yr wyf yn siŵr i Peter ddwyn y pwynt hwnnw i sylw John Major a Margaret Thatcher yn ystod y 18 mlynedd hir o reolaeth y Torïaid pan gynyddodd nifer y cynghorwyr arbennig, mi gredaf, 1,100 y cant. Efallai nad oedd yn aelod o’r blaid Dorïaidd ar y pryd. Mae cynghorwyr arbennig, gydag eithriadau prin, yn aelodau o bleidiau gwleidyddol ac mae’n debyg eu bod yn gweithredu mewn ffyrdd sydd yn annerbyniol i weision sifil arferol. Disgwylir iddynt fod yn sianel ar gyfer eu priod bleidiau. Byddant yn ymweld â swyddfeydd y pleidiau a byddant yn mynd gyda Gweinidogion i gynadleddau’r pleidiau, lle na chaniateir i was sifil fynd. Yr un drefn yn union ydyw i ni ag ydoedd i’r Torïaid. Ymddengys, Peter, ichi syrthio i’r trap Torïaidd o gredu bod yr hyn sydd yn dderbyniol i’r Torïaid yn annerbyniol i bawb arall.
Is information provided to Cabinet Ministers by Wales Office civil servants? Is this information sometimes sent by e-mail, and if so, how can we be sure that it is not total bunkum of the sort that was distributed under various pseudonyms by Mr Adrian McMenamin, a Wales Office civil servant, whose conduct was outrageous? Is it not unacceptable for a civil servant to behave in this way? If Paul Murphy has indicated that he is satisfied with his adviser’s behaviour, does this not call into question the Secretary of State’s values and judgment?
A ddarperir gwybodaeth i Weinidogion y Cabinet gan weision sifil Swyddfa Cymru? A anfonir yr wybodaeth hon drwy e-bost weithiau, ac os felly, sut y gallwn fod yn siŵr nad nonsens llwyr ydyw o’r math a ddosbarthwyd o dan ffugenwau amrywiol gan Mr Adrian McMenamin, un o weision sifil Swyddfa Cymru, yr oedd ei ymddygiad yn warthus? Onid yw’n annerbyniol i was sifil ymddwyn yn y ffordd hon? Os yw Paul Murphy wedi nodi ei fod yn fodlon ag ymddygiad ei gynghorydd, onid yw hyn yn bwrw amheuaeth ar werthoedd a barn yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
This is part of the general knockabout between different political parties, Dafydd. No doubt you would find unacceptable a view that I might hold about Councillor Simon Glyn and your refusal to ask him to resign from the chairmanship of the Gwynedd housing committee where he has far more influence—over who gets a house and who does not—than any influence a special adviser might have. If a special adviser—in the evening, as far as I am aware—performs some technological wizardry with e-mail and the computer in a way that I would not begin to understand, I fully expect a Plaid Cymru Member to take up the matter. It is part of the inter-party knockabout that Plaid enjoys when it thinks that it is getting away with it and does not when we retaliate. You will have to accept that. Are you implying that those e-mails were sent either with the authority of the Secretary of State or from his Office? Are you alleging that there was use of civil service premises and time or anything of that sort, Dafydd? I can see that you are. You should therefore write to me because I do not think that you are right about that.
Mae hyn yn rhan o’r trin a’r trafod cyffredinol rhwng pleidiau gwleidyddol gwahanol, Dafydd. Yn ddi-os byddech yn ystyried bod barn y gallwn i ei choleddu yn annerbyniol am y Cynghorydd Simon Glyn a’r ffaith ichi wrthod gofyn iddo ymddiswyddo o fod yn gadeirydd pwyllgor tai Gwynedd lle y mae ganddo lawer mwy o ddylanwad—o ran pwy a gaiff dŷ a phwy na chaiff dŷ—nag unrhyw ddylanwad a allai fod gan gynghorydd arbennig. Os bydd cynghorydd arbennig—fin nos, hyd y gwn i—yn cyflawni rhyw ddewiniaeth dechnolegol gydag e-bost a’r cyfrifiadur mewn ffordd na fyddwn yn gallu dechrau ei deall, llawn ddisgwyliaf i Aelod o Blaid Cymru godi’r mater. Mae’n rhan o’r trin a’r trafod rhyngbleidiol y mae Plaid yn ei fwynhau pan dybia y gall wneud hynny ac nad yw’n ei fwynhau pan dalwn y pwyth yn ôl. Bydd yn rhaid ichi dderbyn hynny. A awgrymwch i’r negeseuon e-bost hynny gael eu hanfon naill ai ag awdurdod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol neu o’i Swyddfa? A honnwch y defnyddiwyd swyddfeydd ac amser y gwasanaeth sifil neu unrhyw beth o’r math hwnnw, Dafydd? Gwelaf eich bod yn honni hynny. Dylech ysgrifennu ataf felly gan nad wyf o’r farn eich bod yn iawn am hynny.
Integreiddio Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol â Pholisïau Eraill
Integrating Social Inclusion with Other Policies
Will the First Minister make a statement about Assembly activities to integrate social inclusion with other policies, such as sustainable development and equal opportunities, that cut across all policy areas? (OAQ9164)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch gweithgareddau’r Cynulliad i integreiddio cynhwysiant cymdeithasol â pholisïau eraill megis datblygu cynaliadwy a chyfle cyfartal sydd yn berthnasol i bob maes polisi? (OAQ9164)
I say that knowing that there is a great deal of support from our friends on the Conservative side of the Chamber.
Dywedaf hynny gan wybod bod cryn gefnogaeth o du ein cyfeillion ar ochr y Ceidwadwyr o’r Siambr.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
Order. That last sentence was not part of the original question.
Trefn. Nid oedd y frawddeg ddiwethaf honno yn rhan o’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol.
That is true, but neither was the baying from the Conservative side.
Mae hynny’n wir, ond nid oedd yr herio o ochr y Ceidwadwyr yn rhan ohono chwaith.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
No. I tried earlier today to prevent barracking by the Welsh Conservative group. I was about to intervene to prevent barracking by the Party of Wales group. I will also not allow additional unscheduled supplementary questions.
Nac oedd. Yn gynharach heddiw ceisiais atal grwp Ceidwadwyr Cymru rhag gweiddi ar draws eraill. Yr oeddwn ar fin ymyrryd i atal grwp Plaid Cymru rhag gweiddi ar draws eraill. Hefyd ni chaniatâf gwestiynau atodol ychwanegol.
I apologise unreservedly.
Ymddiheuraf o waelod calon.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
To go back to the original question, each of these themes supports the others. The Community Regeneration and Social Inclusion Unit has recently been set up to take forward our policies to assist the most deprived communities throughout Wales.
I ddychwelyd at y cwestiwn gwreiddiol, mae pob un o’r themâu hyn yn cefnogi’r gweddill. Sefydlwyd yr Uned Adfywio Cymunedau a Chynhwysiant Cymdeithasol yn ddiweddar er mwyn datblygu ein polisïau i gynorthwyo’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig ledled Cymru.
The Welsh Affairs Select Committee report on social exclusion identifies that exclusion particularly affects women, elderly people, ethnic minorities, and people with disabilities. It contains several proposals for action, including suggestions that the National Assembly should develop welfare benefit take-up campaigns and encourage welfare benefit advice. What plans do you have to take those recommendations forward through the Assembly’s different structures?
Mae adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig ar allgáu cymdeithasol yn nodi bod allgáu yn effeithio’n arbennig ar ferched, pobl hyn, lleiafrifoedd ethnig, a phobl ag anableddau. Mae’n cynnwys sawl cynnig ar gyfer gweithredu, gan gynnwys awgrymiadau y dylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddatblygu ymgyrchoedd manteisio ar fudd-dâl lles ac annog cyngor ar fudd-dâl lles. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i ddatblygu’r argymhellion hynny drwy wahanol strwythurau’r Cynulliad?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I certainly welcome the Select Committee’s extremely thorough and lengthy examination of social exclusion in Wales, and in conjunction with the rest of the Cabinet, I will be looking carefully at all the recommendations relevant to the Assembly’s remit. You will already be aware that the budget approved by this Assembly on 5 December 2000 included an additional £180 million to cover the period up to 2003, or to promote an inclusive society, and commits additional money to support children and youth services including the new Children’s Commissioner for Wales. The particular point regarding welfare benefits is an issue that we are still looking at funding, either through our own budget or through the new opportunities fund. Improved welfare benefits advice is generally welcomed. As a result of stigma and ignorance, and sometimes because of the complexity of the forms, we find that many people do not get the benefits to which they are undoubtedly entitled.
Yn sicr croesawaf archwiliad hynod drwyadl a maith y Pwyllgor Dethol o allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru, ac ar y cyd â gweddill y Cabinet, byddaf yn edrych yn ofalus ar bob un o’r argymhellion sydd yn berthnasol i gylch gwaith y Cynulliad. Byddwch yn ymwybodol eisoes i’r gyllideb a gymeradwywyd gan y Cynulliad hwn ar 5 Rhagfyr 2000 gynnwys £180 miliwn yn ychwanegol i gwmpasu’r cyfnod hyd at 2003, neu i hyrwyddo cymdeithas gynhwysol, ac mae’n ymrwymo arian ychwanegol i gefnogi gwasanaethau plant ac ieuenctid gan gynnwys Comisiynydd Plant newydd Cymru. Mae’r pwynt arbennig ynglyn â budd-daliadau lles yn fater y parhawn i ystyried ei ariannu, naill ai drwy ein cyllideb ein hunain neu drwy’r gronfa cyfleoedd newydd. Yn gyffredinol croesewir gwell cyngor ar fudd-daliadau lles. O ganlyniad i stigma ac anwybodaeth, ac weithiau oherwydd cymhlethdod y ffurflenni, gwelwn fod llawer o bobl yn byw heb y budd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl pendant i’w derbyn.
A gytunwch mai’r her fawr o ran y pynciau trawsbynciol yw sicrhau eu bod yn wirioneddol drawsbynciol? A gytunwch bod gosod datblygu cynaliadwy felly yng ngofal Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd yn cadarnhau canfyddiad pobl mai rhywbeth sydd yn ymwneud â’r amgylchedd a chynllunio yn unig yw datblygu cynaliadwy? Byddai’n well i’r Prif Weinidog, o bosibl, gymryd cyfrifoldeb dros ddatblygu cynaliadwy.
Do you agree that the greatest challenge relating to the crosscutting themes is to ensure that they are truly crosscutting? Do you agree that placing sustainable development within the remit of the Minister for Environment confirms people’s preconception that sustainable development only relates to the environment and planning? It would possibly be better for the First Minister to take responsibility for sustainable development.
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 19
Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny. Credaf fod gan Sue Essex y diddordeb a’r doniau i fod yn gyfrifol am y portffolio hwn.
I do not accept that. I believe that Sue Essex has the interest and ability to take responsibility for this portfolio.
Dylanwadu ar Ddeddfwriaeth Sylfaenol
Influencing Primary Legislation
Will the First Minister make a statement on the mechanisms by which the Assembly influences primary legislation? (OAQ9163)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y mecanweithiau a ddefnyddir gan y Cynulliad i ddylanwadu ar ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol? (OAQ9163)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to Janet Davies on 19 December.
Nid oes gennyf unrhyw beth i’w ychwanegu at yr ateb a roddais i Janet Davies ar 19 Rhagfyr.
Do you acknowledge that there is an onus on you, as First Minister, and Paul Murphy, as Secretary of State for Wales, to establish a mechanism through which the interests of the Assembly can be included in the drafting of primary legislation? That should be done early enough to influence the form of that primary legislation, thus reducing the confusion that so damages the Assembly’s credibility.
A gydnabyddwch ei bod yn gyfrifoldeb arnoch chi, fel Prif Weinidog, a Paul Murphy, fel Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, i sefydlu mecanwaith i sicrhau y gellir cynnwys buddiannau’r Cynulliad wrth ddrafftio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol? Dylid gwneud hynny’n ddigon cynnar i ddylanwadu ar ffurf y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol honno, a thrwy hynny leihau’r dryswch sydd yn gwneud cymaint o niwed i hygrededd y Cynulliad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
I am not sure what you regard as damaging to the Assembly’s credibility. Are you not trying to do such damage through your unsubstantiated remarks? There are two problems here. First, as a subsidiary legislative body, we would like to generate ideas, which would then go into the Queen’s Speech the following year. One way of doing that would be for the House of Commons—or Government in Westminster—to adopt a pattern of generating many more draft Bills, so that you have a two-year legislative period in which we could provide input in the first year before matters are finalised for the Queen’s Speech in the second year. The real problem then is that in Westminster, backbenchers do not see the content of Bills or how the Government chooses those Bills. We cannot ask for Assembly Members to have preferential treatment over backbench Members of Parliament. The contents of the Queen’s Speech is a jealously-guarded secret, except for those Bills which are dealt with by a draft-Bill procedure and therefore take two years instead of one year to get through Parliament.
Nid wyf yn siwr beth a ystyriwch yn niweidiol i hygrededd y Cynulliad. Onid dyna eich bwriad wrth wneud y fath sylwadau di-sail? Mae yma ddwy broblem. Yn gyntaf, fel is-gorff deddfwriaethol, hoffem greu syniadau, i’w cynnwys wedyn yn Araith y Frenhines y flwyddyn ganlynol. Un ffordd i wneud hynny fyddai i Dy’r Cyffredin—neu’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan—fabwysiadu patrwm o greu llawer mwy o Fesurau drafft, fel bod gennych gyfnod deddfwriaethol o ddwy flynedd. Gallem ddarparu mewnbwn yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf cyn i bethau gael eu cwblhau ar gyfer Araith y Frenhines yn ystod yr ail flwyddyn. Y broblem wirioneddol wedyn yw nad yw Aelodau’r meinciau cefn yn San Steffan yn gweld cynnwys y Mesurau na’r ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn dewis y Mesurau hynny. Ni allwn ofyn i Aelodau’r Cynulliad gael eu trin mewn ffordd well nag Aelodau meinciau cefn y Senedd. Mae cynnwys Araith y Frenhines yn gyfrinach a gedwir yn ofalus, ac eithrio’r Mesurau hynny yr ymdrinnir â hwy drwy weithdrefn Mesur-drafft ac sydd felly yn cymryd dwy flynedd yn lle blwyddyn i fynd drwy’r Senedd.
Do you agree that policy development in terms of subordinate legislation in the Assembly needs to be firmed up? We often hear Members express concerns about policy issues, only to be told that they require primary legislation. However, do you agree that we need to firm up those policy areas, as far as subordinate legislation is concerned, because they are extremely deficient and we are not making the best of our powers?
A gytunwch fod angen gwneud y gwaith o ddatblygu polisïau o ran is-ddeddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad yn gadarnach? Clywn Aelodau yn mynegi pryderon yn aml am faterion polisi, a’r ateb a roddir iddynt yw bod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn ofynnol. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch fod angen inni wneud y meysydd polisi hynny’n gadarnach, cyn belled ag y mae is-ddeddfwriaeth yn y cwestiwn, oherwydd maent yn hynod ddiffygiol ac ni wnawn y gorau o’n pwerau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
We would all like to see the learning process by which we are getting to grips with maximising the use of our subordinate legislative powers completed and those powers made full use of. There is a learning curve, and I am sure that we have not reached devolutionary nirvana yet. We would all agree that we are getting there, albeit slowly, as we learn what the limits of subordinate legislative power are, and how we can draw up the most meaty subordinate legislation, which will have an impact on people’s lives.
Hoffai pob un ohonom weld y broses ddysgu a ddefnyddiwn i fynd i’r afael â sicrhau’r defnydd mwyaf o’n pwerau is-ddeddfwriaethol yn cael ei chwblhau a’r pwerau hynny’n cael eu defnyddio’n llawn. Yr ydym yn mynd drwy gromlin dysgu, ac yr wyf yn siwr nad ydym wedi cyrraedd nirfana datganoli eto. Byddem i gyd yn cytuno ein bod yn agosáu ati, er yn araf, wrth inni ddysgu beth yw terfynau pwer is-ddeddfwriaethol, a sut y gallwn lunio’r is-ddeddfwriaeth fwyaf swmpus, a gaiff effaith ar fywydau pobl.
Datganiad ar Ddiswyddiadau yn Valeo, Gorseinon
Statement on Redundancies at Valeo, Gorseinon
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 21
Michael German Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
I make this statement in response to an urgent question that the Presiding Officer accepted this morning. The First Minister and I were saddened by the announcement last week that 337 jobs will be lost at the Valeo facility in Gorseinon, when it will be forced to close later this year.
Gwnaf y datganiad hwn mewn ymateb i gwestiwn brys a dderbyniodd y Llywydd y bore yma. Tristáwyd y Prif Weinidog a minnau gan y cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf y collir 337 o swyddi yng nghyfleuster Valeo yng Ngorseinon, pan gaiff ei orfodi i gau yn ddiweddarach eleni.
Assembly officials have already been in contact with the company to offer full support from the Assembly and its sponsored public bodies for the staff affected by this announcement. Officials from all relevant departments had face-to-face talks with the company and I asked the Chairman of the Welsh Development Agency to join me in visiting management and unions to ensure that every effort is made to ensure the survival of work at this site.
Bu swyddogion y Cynulliad mewn cysylltiad â’r cwmni eisoes er mwyn cynnig cefnogaeth lwyr y Cynulliad a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo i’r staff y mae’r cyhoeddiad hwn yn effeithio arnynt. Cynhaliwyd trafodaethau wyneb yn wyneb rhwng swyddogion o bob adran berthnasol a’r cwmni a gofynnais i Gadeirydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ymuno â mi wrth ymweld â rheolwyr ac undebau er mwyn gwneud yn siwr y gwneir pob ymdrech i sicrhau bod y gwaith yn goroesi ar y safle hwn.
A combination of factors is responsible for this position, following a shift in customer manufacturing. The company has been placed in the unfortunate position of having to plan for the factory’s closure, following a thorough assessment of the Gorseinon facility. The company claims that spare capacity exists at other group operations in Europe, and production will be transferred to these operations, since it is not economically viable for the company to continue production in Gorseinon. There are also several external factors that it claims have contributed to its decision. These include the announcement of the closure of Vauxhall Luton and the substantial extra cost for the Vectra replacement production at two sites, which was amplified by a potential decline in this programme’s volume. Other external factors are the competitive logistics and labour costs in the Czech Republic for the Vectra replacement programme, Renault’s new commercial vehicle strategy—where production has been split between the UK and Spain—and, since BMW sold Rover, the volume outlook for Rover has been reduced. Increasingly, the price competition with its competitors, Delphi and Visteon has become more aggressive, since being obliged to diversify from General Motors and Ford.
Mae cyfuniad o ffactorau yn gyfrifol am y sefyllfa hon, yn dilyn symudiad o ran gweithgynhyrchu cwsmeriaid. Rhoddwyd y cwmni yn y sefyllfa anffodus o orfod cynllunio ar gyfer cau’r ffatri, yn dilyn asesiad trwyadl o gyfleuster Gorseinon. Honna’r cwmni bod lleoedd sbâr mewn gweithrediadau eraill gan y grwp yn Ewrop, a throsglwyddir y gwaith cynhyrchu i’r gweithrediadau hyn, gan nad yw’n economaidd ymarferol i’r cwmni barhau i gynhyrchu yng Ngorseinon. Mae sawl ffactor allanol hefyd a gyfrannodd, yn ôl y cwmni, at ei benderfyniad. Ymhlith y rhain mae’r cyhoeddiad am gau Vauxhall Luton a’r gost ychwanegol sylweddol ar gyfer cynhyrchu’r cerbyd i ddisodli’r Vectra ar ddau safle, a waethygwyd gan ddirywiad posibl ym maint y rhaglen hon. Mae’r logisteg gystadleuol a’r costau llafur yn y Weriniaeth Tsiec ar gyfer y cerbyd i ddisodli’r Vectra, strategaeth cerbydau masnachol newydd Renault—lle y rhannwyd y gwaith cynhyrchu rhwng y DU a Sbaen—yn ffactorau allanol eraill, ac, ers i BMW werthu Rover, mae’r rhagolygon i Rover o ran maint wedi tywyllu. Yn gynyddol, mae’r gystadleuaeth o ran prisiau gyda’i gystadleuwyr, sef Delphi a Visteon, wedi mynd yn fwy chwyrn, ers iddynt gael eu gorfodi i arallgyfeirio o General Motors a Ford.
Valeo is an independent industrial group fully focused on the design, production and sale of components, integrated systems and modules for cars and trucks. It ranks among the world’s top automotive suppliers. The group has 167 plants, 41 research and development centres and 10 distribution centres, employing between them 75,000 people in 25 countries worldwide. The Gorseinon plant, which opened in 1992, manufactures heaters and air conditioning units for passenger cars. Its main customers are the MG Rover Group, General Motors, BMW and Ford Landrover. It is possible that the exchange rate might have contributed to its problems, although I should say that this was not mentioned in the letter I received from Valeo’s managing director yesterday, which explained the background to its decision.
Mae Valeo yn grwp diwydiannol annibynnol sydd yn canolbwyntio’n llwyr ar gynllunio, cynhyrchu a gwerthu cydrannau, systemau integredig a modwlau ar gyfer ceir a lorïau. Mae’n un o brif gyflenwyr moduron y byd. Mae gan y grwp 167 o ffatrïoedd, 41 o ganolfannau ymchwil a datblygu a 10 o ganolfannau dosbarthu, sydd rhyngddynt yn cyflogi 75,000 o bobl mewn 25 o wledydd yn fyd-eang. Mae ffatri Gorseinon, a agorodd yn 1992, yn gweithgynhyrchu gwresogyddion ac unedau awyru ar gyfer ceir. Ei brif gwsmeriaid yw’r Grwp MG Rover, General Motors, BMW a Ford Landrover. Mae’n bosibl i’r gyfradd gyfnewid gyfrannu at ei broblemau, er y dylwn ddweud na chrybwyllwyd hyn yn y llythyr a dderbyniais oddi wrth reolwr gyfarwyddwr Valeo ddoe, a oedd yn esbonio’r cefndir i’w benderfyniad.
As regards the immediate situation, West Wales Training and Enterprise Council will shortly submit an application for the redundancies to be treated as significant, which the Assembly is likely to approve immediately. The TEC is also considering, in conjunction with the Employment Service, implementing additional rapid response measures to assist affected staff. However, its decision is dependent on the situation becoming clearer and we will not know it for several days yet.
O ran y sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, bydd Cyngor Hyfforddi a Menter Gorllewin Cymru yn cyflwyno cais yn fuan i’r diswyddiadau gael eu hystyried yn rhai sylweddol, ac mae’r Cynulliad yn debygol o’i gymeradwyo ar unwaith. Mae’r CHM hefyd yn ystyried, ar y cyd â’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi, weithredu mesurau ymateb cyflym ychwanegol er mwyn cynorthwyo’r staff yr effeithir arnynt. Fodd bynnag, mae ei benderfyniad yn dibynnu ar pa mor glir y daw’r sefyllfa ac ni chawn wybod am sawl diwrnod eto.
As soon as the redundancies have been formally identified as significant, any of the affected staff who wish to do so will be able to gain immediate access to the work-based learning for adults programme. That means that they will be able to have immediate access to a wide range of assistance that they would normally have to be unemployed for six months or more to receive. That programme is funded in Wales by the National Assembly and is delivered through the training and enterprise councils. It is designed to help people aged 25 and over who are unemployed and at risk of exclusion from the job market, to secure and sustain employment through a wide range of training and other assistance to enhance skills.
Cyn gynted ag y nodir yn ffurfiol bod y diswyddiadau yn sylweddol, gall unrhyw rai o’r staff yr effeithir arnynt sydd am wneud hynny gael mynediad ar unwaith i’r rhaglen dysgu yn y gwaith i oedolion. Golyga hynny y gallant gael mynediad ar unwaith i amrediad eang o gymorth y byddai’n rhaid iddynt fel arfer fod yn ddi-waith am chwe mis neu fwy i’w dderbyn. Ariennir y rhaglen honno yng Nghymru gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac fe’i cyflwynir drwy’r cynghorau hyfforddi a menter. Ei nod yw cynorthwyo pobl 25 oed neu’n hyn sydd yn ddi-waith ac mewn perygl o gael eu heithrio o’r farchnad waith, i sicrhau cyflogaeth a’i chadw drwy amrediad eang o hyfforddiant a chymorth arall i wella sgiliau.
It is still early days. The Assembly stands ready to provide all possible assistance. As I said in my press statement on 25 January, I hope that the plant can be sold as a going concern. I have asked the Welsh Development Agency to look urgently at marketing the Gorseinon facility and at other alternatives in the Valeo group. In addition, any potential buyer would also be able to take advantage of Accelerate Wales, the Assembly’s programme of assistance to the automotive industry, which aims to strengthen supply chains within that industry, and encourage improved competitiveness and diversification of product bases. This is one of the points that Sir David Rowe-Beddoe and I will be pursuing with the company when we meet it in the next few days. I will also be meeting the union representatives separately at the site, to ensure that I can take forward their concerns for the workforce.
Megis dechrau yr ydym o hyd. Mae’r Cynulliad yn barod i ddarparu pob cymorth posibl. Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad i’r wasg ar 25 Ionawr, gobeithiaf y gellir gwerthu’r ffatri fel busnes gweithredol. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru edrych ar fyrder ar farchnata cyfleuster Gorseinon ac ar bosibiliadau amgen yng ngrwp Valeo. Yn ychwanegol, gallai unrhyw brynwr posibl fanteisio ar Sbardun Cymru, sef rhaglen y Cynulliad i gynorthwyo’r diwydiant moduron, sydd yn anelu at gryfhau’r cadwyni cyflenwi o fewn y diwydiant hwnnw, ac annog ysbryd cystadleuol gwell ac arallgyfeirio sylfeini cynnyrch. Dyma un o’r pwyntiau y bydd Syr David Rowe-Beddoe a minnau yn mynd ar ei ôl gyda’r cwmni pan gyfarfyddwn ag ef yn ystod yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf. Byddaf hefyd yn cyfarfod â’r cynrychiolwyr undeb ar wahân ar y safle, er mwyn sicrhau y gallaf weithredu ar eu pryderon ynglyn â’r gweithlu.
I am grateful for the active support of a large number of politicians and for the assistance that they have offered to the company and the workforce.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gefnogaeth frwd nifer fawr o wleidyddion ac am y cymorth y maent wedi ei gynnig i’r cwmni a’r gweithlu.
Although it is important that we cover all contingencies, we should not write off the plant yet. There are several options that should be explored with the Valeo group here and with its management in France. As you have acknowledged, the Valeo plant in Gorseinon is one of the most efficient in the group. There may be scope in talking to the managing director of the company to perhaps consider ways of transferring work from other divisions of the group to the Gorseinon plant. Will you confirm that you will do everything possible to facilitate the talks that the workforce would like to have with the management in France, and offer whatever support is necessary to the management and the workforce in their efforts to keep this plant open to preserve the jobs that no-one in the Gorseinon and Swansea area wishes to see lost?
Er ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn cwmpasu pob posibilrwydd, ni ddylem ystyried y ffatri yn fethiant eto. Mae sawl opsiwn y dylid edrych arnynt o ran y grwp Valeo yma a’i reolwyr yn Ffrainc. Fel yr ydych wedi cydnabod, mae ffatri Valeo yng Ngorseinon yn un o ffatrïoedd mwyaf effeithlon y grwp. Efallai fod posibilrwydd o siarad â rheolwr gyfarwyddwr y cwmni i ystyried efallai ffyrdd o drosglwyddo gwaith o is-adrannau eraill y grwp i ffatri Gorseinon. A gadarnhewch y gwnewch bopeth o fewn eich gallu i hwyluso’r trafodaethau yr hoffai’r gweithlu eu cael gyda’r rheolwyr yn Ffrainc, a chynnig pa gefnogaeth bynnag sydd ei angen i’r rheolwyr a’r gweithlu yn eu hymdrechion i gadw’r ffatri hon ar agor er mwyn cadw’r swyddi nad oes unrhyw un yn ardal Gorseinon ac Abertawe am eu gweld yn diflannu?
I will. Divisions that make internal decisions without necessarily consulting with other divisions in the company are common in French industrial production. As I have demonstrated, this is a large company that is broken up into numerous divisions. I hope that the discussions can take place. That is why I have asked Sir David Rowe-Beddoe to accompany me, so that we can consider the possibilities for ensuring that the company can continue working at that site and that there is no way of us taking any firm decisions on its eventual closure.
Gwnaf. Mae is-adrannau sydd yn gwneud penderfyniadau mewnol heb ymgynghori o reidrwydd ag is-adrannau eraill y cwmni yn gyffredin ym maes cynhyrchu diwydiannol Ffrainc. Fel yr wyf wedi egluro, mae hwn yn gwmni mawr a rannwyd yn nifer o is-adrannau. Gobeithiaf y gall y trafodaethau ddigwydd. Dyna pam yr wyf wedi gofyn i Syr David Rowe-Beddoe ddod gyda mi, er mwyn inni allu ystyried y posibiliadau ar gyfer sicrhau y gall y cwmni barhau i weithio ar y safle hwnnw ac nad oes unrhyw ffordd y gallwn ni gymryd unrhyw benderfyniadau pendant ar ei gau yn y pen draw.
After 46 years in active politics, I am concerned that I sometimes see economic issues in terms of figures and formulae. However, last week I heard an interview with a worker at Valeo. He and his family had hoped to put their affairs in order this year, but that has now been threatened. That interview had a greater effect on me than I had expected and it left me with a heavy heart. I am sure that you would agree that when we hear about the loss of 300 jobs, we remember that 300 families are under threat. Even before we hear the news from Corus, Valeo is joining a growing list. Do you agree that there is a common feature in the redundancies at Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, Bairdwear, Dewhirst, Gossard, Takiron and now at AB Electronics, Alcan and many others? We are experiencing a climate that is hostile to the success of modern and efficient manufacturing industries. Do you also agree that we are beginning to see the second order of closures and redundancies? The closure of Vauxhall and the reduction in volume output from Rover are two reasons that you have given for the problems in Valeo. They were a result of this hostile atmosphere and especially of the uncompetitive pound.
Ar ôl 46 o flynyddoedd mewn gwleidyddiaeth weithredol, mae’n achos pryder imi fy mod weithiau yn gweld materion economaidd yn nhermau ffigurau a fformwlâu. Fodd bynnag, clywais gyfweliad â gweithiwr yn Valeo yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd ef a’i deulu wedi gobeithio rhoi trefn ar bethau eleni, ond bellach mae hynny dan fygythiad. Cafodd y cyfweliad hwnnw effaith fwy arnaf nag yr oeddwn wedi ei ddisgwyl ac fe’m gadawodd â chalon drom. Yr wyf yn siwr y cytunech ein bod, pan glywn fod 300 o swyddi yn cael eu colli, yn cofio bod 300 o deuluoedd o dan fygythiad. Hyd yn oed cyn inni glywed y newyddion gan Corus, mae Valeo yn ymuno â rhestr sydd yn tyfu. A gytunwch fod nodwedd gyffredin yn niswyddiadau Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, Bairdwear, Dewhirst, Gossard, Takiron ac yn awr AB Electronics, Alcan a llawer mwy? Yr ydym yn profi hinsawdd sydd yn elyniaethus i lwyddiant diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu modern ac effeithlon. A gytunwch hefyd ein bod yn dechrau gweld cwmnïau’n cau a diswyddiadau am yr ail waith? Mae cau Vauxhall a’r lleihad ym maint allbwn Rover yn ddau reswm a roddasoch am y problemau yn Valeo. Yr oeddent yn ganlyniad i’r awyrgylch gelyniaethus hwn ac yn arbennig i’r bunt anghystadleuol.
I have asked time and again in this Chamber over the past year, what steps have the Government in London taken to protect the manufacturing industry in Wales and in the Midlands and the north of England? Can you think of a single step that Gordon Brown has taken to restore the pound to a competitive level? Above all—and I am sure that you would agree with this, Mike—at what stage will the Government take a firm lead on the relationship between our economies and the European common market and the euro zone?
Yr wyf wedi gofyn droeon yn y Siambr hon yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, pa gamau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain wedi eu cymryd i ddiogelu’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru ac yng nghanolbarth a gogledd Lloegr? A allwch feddwl am un cam a gymerodd Gordon Brown er mwyn adfer y bunt i lefel gystadleuol? Uwchlaw popeth—ac yr wyf yn siwr y cytunech â hyn, Mike—pryd fydd y Llywodraeth yn cymryd camau i arwain yn gryf ar y berthynas rhwng ein heconomïau ni a marchnad gyffredin Ewrop a pharth yr ewro?
Finally, I ask you, as a Member of this Labour and Liberal Democrat Government, what steps has that Government taken to represent the feelings of people in Wales and many Assembly Members by stating clearly and publicly that the Government’s monetary policy is endangering the manufacturing sector, which is the bedrock of the Welsh economy? Over the last week, we have heard justified criticism by Members of all parties of the behaviour of Corus, for example. However, at the same time, it is important that we hear you, and especially your partners in the Labour group, putting pressure on Gordon Brown and on the policies that are threatening lives in Wales.
Yn olaf, gofynnaf i chi, fel Aelod o’r Llywodraeth Lafur a Democrataidd Ryddfrydol hon, pa gamau a gymerodd y Llywodraeth honno i gynrychioli teimladau pobl Cymru a llawer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad drwy ddatgan yn glir ac yn gyhoeddus bod polisi ariannol y Llywodraeth yn peryglu’r sector gweithgynhyrchu, sef craidd economi Cymru? Yn ystod yr wythnos ddiwethaf, yr ydym wedi clywed Aelodau o bob plaid yn beirniadu ymddygiad Corus, er enghraifft, yn gywir felly. Fodd bynnag, ar yr un pryd, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn eich clywed chi, ac yn arbennig eich partneriaid yn y grwp Llafur, yn rhoi pwysau ar Gordon Brown ac ar y polisïau sydd yn bygwth bywydau yng Nghymru.
I also heard the interview that you mentioned at the beginning of your contribution, and the remarks of that father about his child’s holiday. The impact on human beings cannot be negated and I share that concern. That is why it is vital that we do whatever we can within the National Assembly’s powers to ensure that we retain production at this plant.
Clywais innau hefyd y cyfweliad a grybwyllwyd gennych ar ddechrau eich cyfraniad, a sylwadau’r tad hwnnw am wyliau ei blentyn. Ni ellir gwadu’r effaith ar bobl a rhannaf y pryder hwnnw. Dyna pam ei bod yn hanfodol ein bod yn gwneud beth bynnag a allwn o fewn pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i sicrhau ein bod yn cadw’r gwaith cynhyrchu yn y ffatri hon.
My views on the euro are well known, but I want you to think more carefully about what this company has noted as the reasons for its change of production. It did not mention the euro in the letter but, undoubtedly, the production of motor vehicles in the United Kingdom is crucial to it. That is mainly motor vehicles for the domestic market rather than that outside the United Kingdom.
Mae fy safbwyntiau ar yr ewro yn hysbys, ond yr wyf am ichi feddwl yn fwy gofalus am yr hyn a nododd y cwmni oedd y rhesymau dros y newid mewn cynhyrchu. Ni chrybwyllodd yr ewro yn y llythyr ond, yn ddiamau, mae cynhyrchu cerbydau modur yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn hanfodol iddo, hynny yw cerbydau modur ar gyfer y farchnad gartref yn bennaf yn hytrach na’r farchnad y tu allan i’r Deyrnas Unedig.
We need to concern ourselves greatly with the issue of whether the manufacturing of principal tier one components is being promoted in this country. This Government has put pressure on the Government in London to ensure that manufacturing is treated seriously. We will have a joint ministerial sub-group with a responsibility to consider manufacturing in Britain. The Assembly will want to be a key player in that, to ensure that we understand the full features and factors that underpin the domestic manufacturing market, which, in this case, has been partly to blame for the losses.
Mae angen i’r cwestiwn o pa un a gaiff y gwaith o weithgynhyrchu prif gydrannau lefel un ei hyrwyddo yn y wlad hon fod yn destun pryder mawr inni. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi rhoi pwysau ar y Llywodraeth yn Llundain i sicrhau yr ymdrinnir o ddifrif â gweithgynhyrchu. Bydd gennym is-grwp gweinidogol ar y cyd a fydd yn gyfrifol am ystyried gweithgynhyrchu ym Mhrydain. Bydd y Cynulliad am fod yn chwaraewr allweddol yn hynny, er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn deall yr holl nodweddion a ffactorau sydd yn sail i’r farchnad gweithgynhyrchu gartref, a fu, yn yr achos hwn, i’w beio yn rhannol am y colledion.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 26
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
Order. References to the ‘Government in London’ in the question and in the answer have been drawn to my attention. I believe that we are talking here about the United Kingdom Government, which is in London.
Trefn. Tynnwyd fy sylw at gyfeiriadau at y ‘Llywodraeth yn Llundain’ yn y cwestiwn ac yn yr ateb. Credaf ein bod yn siarad yma am Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, sydd yn Llundain.
I am disappointed that Phil took this opportunity to score party political points. [Interruption.] I am seriously disappointed because these are real events that affect people’s lives. Mike’s statement makes it clear—unless Plaid Cymru has intelligence that the rest of us do not have—that a range of factors have created this serious situation in Valeo. Every time this happens, there are complex reasons.
Yr wyf yn siomedig i Phil fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol i’w blaid. [Torri ar draws.] Yr wyf o ddifrif yn siomedig gan fod y rhain yn ddigwyddiadau go iawn sydd yn effeithio ar fywydau pobl. Mae datganiad Mike yn ei gwneud yn glir—oni bai bod gan Blaid Cymru wybodaeth nad oes gan y gweddill ohonom—bod amrywiaeth o ffactorau wedi creu’r sefyllfa ddifrifol hon yn Valeo. Bob tro y bydd hyn yn digwydd, mae rhesymau cymhleth.
We knew that there would be problems in the automotive sector. That is why Accelerate Wales was established. Work has been going on. My understanding is that the Welsh Development Agency and staff of the City and County of Swansea Council’s economic development department have visited the firm. Since the announcement, Edwina Hart, Martin Caton MP and the trade unions have reacted speedily to try to find a way forward to keep work in this area. This work is desperately needed. On the other hand, we are fortunate that jobs have come into that side of Swansea and into the Swansea Valley. We have had announcements of new jobs and we stand a chance of building up the opportunities of skilled jobs for people in that area. However, that does not mean that we can afford to lose a plant of this significance and importance.
Gwyddem y byddai problemau yn y sector moduron. Dyna pam y sefydlwyd Sbardun Cymru. Bu’r gwaith yn mynd rhagddo. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, mae Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a staff o adran datblygu economaidd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe wedi ymweld â’r cwmni. Ers y cyhoeddiad, mae Edwina Hart, Martin Caton AS a’r undebau llafur wedi ymateb yn gyflym er mwyn ceisio canfod ffordd ymlaen i gadw gwaith yn yr ardal hon. Mae angen y gwaith hwn yn ddybryd. Ar y llaw arall, yr ydym yn ffodus bod swyddi wedi dod i’r ochr honno o Abertawe ac i Gwm Tawe. Cawsom gyhoeddiadau am swyddi newydd ac mae gobaith y gallwn gynyddu’r cyfleoedd am swyddi medrus i bobl yn yr ardal honno. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu y gallwn fforddio colli ffatri mor arwyddocaol a phwysig â hon.
Rather than scoring political points about what may or may not be happening in the European, world and broader UK economy, we must focus on what can be done within the Assembly’s power to affect the lives of those who depend on the jobs. In view of the recent announcement, do you draw any conclusions about how we could gather better intelligence? We have had an automotive forum, we have been in contact with companies such as this and yet we are not succeeding in getting the information early enough to be able to prevent this kind of announcement, which causes everyone to go into a flurry. We must try to see how we can turn that around. Finding a way of working at an early stage with companies and sectors that we know are vulnerable must be central to our national economic development strategy. I ask you, as Minister for Economic Development, having seen what you have over the last months, what are your views on how we can take matters forward and improve our support to companies so that people do not have to go through the kind of experience that we heard about on the radio? I also heard that interview, and our hearts go out to those people who have to deal with that catastrophic change in their lives.
Yn hytrach na sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol ynglyn â’r hyn a allai fod yn digwydd neu nad yw’n digwydd yn economi Ewrop, y byd ac economi ehangach y DU, rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn y gellir ei wneud o fewn pwer y Cynulliad i effeithio ar fywydau’r rheini sydd yn dibynnu ar y swyddi. Yng ngoleuni’r cyhoeddiad diweddar, a ddewch i unrhyw gasgliadau o ran sut y gallem gasglu gwybodaeth well? Cawsom fforwm moduron, buom mewn cysylltiad â chwmnïau megis hwn ac eto nid ydym yn llwyddo i gael gafael ar yr wybodaeth yn ddigon cynnar i allu atal y math hwn o gyhoeddiad, sydd yn peri i bawb gynhyrfu. Rhaid inni geisio gweld sut y gallwn newid hynny. Rhaid i’r gwaith o ganfod ffordd o weithio yn gynnar gyda chwmnïau a sectorau y gwyddom eu bod yn fregus fod yn ganolog i’n strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol. Gofynnaf i chi, fel y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, wedi gweld yr hyn a welsoch dros y misoedd diwethaf, beth yw eich barn ar sut y gallwn ddatblygu pethau a gwella ein cefnogaeth i gwmnïau fel na fydd yn rhaid i bobl fynd drwy’r math o brofiad y clywsom amdano ar y radio? Clywais innau hefyd y cyfweliad hwnnw, ac mae ein calonnau yn mynd allan i’r bobl hynny sydd yn gorfod delio â’r newid trychinebus hwnnw yn eu bywydau.
The crucial factor is for everyone in the industry to work together to try to build an automotive component supply cluster. The automotive supply sector has been matched by the electronic supply sector, which has created an industry-led sector that is driving forward changes within the group. It saddens me that Valeo was on the point of signing up to Accelerate Wales when it announced the potential closure of its plant. There is no doubt that, if everyone in the industry stands together, they can produce better economic forecasts for us to understand. They could give us early warning of the difficulties that they foresee, which would allow us to take appropriate action. There is no doubt that in searching out new markets by creating better supply chains, which is what Accelerate Wales is about, we could take action. Therefore, it is crucial that we have industry-led clusters with industry taking the driving seat and that this is led by the private sector and supported by the public sector in the shape of the Assembly. Our principal arm for changing and moving matters along is the Welsh Development Agency, which is intent on assisting in whatever way it can to ensure that this plant remains open, if that is at all possible.
Y ffactor hanfodol yw i bawb yn y diwydiant gydweithio er mwyn ceisio adeiladu clwstwr cyflenwi cydrannau moduron. Mae’r sector cyflenwi trydanol wedi creu cystadleuaeth i’r sector cyflenwi moduron, ac wedi creu sector a gaiff ei arwain gan ddiwydiant, sydd yn llywio newidiadau o fewn y grwp. Mae’n dristwch imi bod Valeo ar fin ymuno â Sbardun Cymru pan gyhoeddodd y byddai ei ffatri efallai yn cau. Yn ddiamau, os saif pawb yn y diwydiant gyda’i gilydd, gallant greu rhagolygon economaidd gwell inni gael deall. Gallent roi rhybudd cynnar inni o’r anawsterau a ragwelant, a fyddai’n caniatáu inni gymryd y camau priodol. Nid oes amheuaeth, wrth chwilio am farchnadoedd newydd drwy greu cadwyni cyflenwi gwell, sef y rheswm dros fodolaeth Sbardun Cymru, y gallem weithredu. Felly, mae’n hanfodol bod gennym glystyrau a arweinir gan ddiwydiant, gyda diwydiant yn eu llywio, a bod y sector preifat yn arwain hyn a’r sector cyhoeddus yn ei gefnogi ar ffurf y Cynulliad. Ein prif arf ar gyfer newid a symud materion yn eu blaen yw Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, sydd yn benderfynol o gynorthwyo ym mha ffordd bynnag y gall er mwyn sicrhau bod y ffatri hon yn aros ar agor, os yw hynny’n bosibl o gwbl.
Last Thursday was a sad day for Gorseinon and for the Welsh economy as a whole. Val Feld discussed the real situation and criticised Phil Williams for seeking to make political points. The real situation here is that 337 families are losing their main source of income. That is the impact of the Valeo plant’s closure on the Gorseinon community and there is no other word for the impact other than ‘devastating’. That is the real situation that Val Feld seeks to ignore.
Yr oedd dydd Iau diwethaf yn ddiwrnod trist i Orseinon ac i economi Cymru yn gyffredinol. Trafododd Val Feld y sefyllfa go iawn a beirniadodd Phil Williams am geisio gwneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Y sefyllfa go iawn yma yw bod 337 o deuluoedd yn colli prif ffynhonnell eu hincwm. Dyna effaith cau ffatri Valeo ar gymuned Gorseinon a’r unig air am yr effaith yw ‘trychinebus’. Dyna’r sefyllfa go iawn y mae Val Feld yn ceisio ei hanwybyddu.
You said in your statement that it was proving economically unviable for the company to continue production in Gorseinon. However, is it not the reality that it is proving economically unviable for any manufacturer to produce in Wales? Is it not true that production is proving economically unviable for almost any manufacturer across the UK? Are we not experiencing the meltdown of manufacturing industries in Wales? A week hardly passes without you or the First Minister announcing yet another redundancy package, and yet another community being devastated by job losses. That is the reality of the situation. No matter what early warning system you have, that will continue to be the reality as long as the Westminster Government continues to impose rules and regulations and taxes on our manufacturing industry. That is the reality. You cannot get away from the fact that if your costs are rising, then your profits are falling and you can easily move into a loss that results in the closure and meltdown of the manufacturing industry that we are currently experiencing.
Dywedasoch yn eich datganiad ei bod yn economaidd anymarferol i’r cwmni barhau i gynhyrchu yng Ngorseinon. Fodd bynnag, onid y realiti yw ei bod yn economaidd anymarferol i unrhyw weithgynhyrchydd gynhyrchu yng Nghymru? Onid yw’n wir bod cynhyrchu yn economaidd anymarferol i unrhyw weithgynhyrchydd bron ar draws y DU? Onid ydym yn profi diflaniad diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru? Prin yr aiff wythnos heibio heb i chi neu i’r Prif Weinidog gyhoeddi pecyn diswyddo arall, ac i gymuned arall eto gael ei distrywio drwy golli swyddi. Dyna realiti’r sefyllfa. Beth bynnag fo’r system rhybuddio cynnar sydd gennych, dyna fydd y realiti cyn belled ag y parha Llywodraeth San Steffan i osod rheolau a rheoliadau a threthi ar ein diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu. Dyna’r realiti. Ni ellir gwadu, os yw eich costau yn codi, bod eich elw yn lleihau a gallwch symud i sefyllfa o golled yn hawdd, sydd yn arwain at y cau a’r diflaniad yn y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yr ydym yn ei brofi ar hyn o bryd.
You discussed the manufacturing sub-group that Ministers will put together and the rapid response measures. You also discussed Accelerate Wales. No matter how much these groups seek to do, while fixed costs and taxes keep rising and rules increasingly burden business, we will continue to experience the meltdown of the manufacturing industry. That is the result of the policy of this joint administration and the Westminster Government.
Trafodasoch yr is-grwp gweithgynhyrchu y bydd Gweinidogion yn ei ffurfio a’r mesurau ymateb cyflym. Trafodasoch hefyd Sbardun Cymru. Ni waeth faint y ceisia’r grwpiau hyn ei wneud, tra bydd y costau a’r trethi sefydlog yn dal i godi ac y bydd y rheolau yn faich cynyddol ar fusnesau, parhawn i brofi diflaniad y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu. Dyna ganlyniad polisi’r gyd-weinyddiaeth hon a Llywodraeth San Steffan.
I am interested to hear Alun Cairns describe Armageddon, which seems to have arrived early. I am pleased to note that the Conservatives are now in favour of the Assembly determining macro-economic policy. Talk about conversion on the road from wherever. The crucial issue, which Alun is prepared to ignore, is that this administration has not given up on Valeo. He seems to have done that already by writing off the potential for saving anything from this company. We have not written it off. Alun wants the private sector to take a lead and that is what Accelerate Wales is about. It is about the private sector taking the lead, driving the agenda forward and building a stronger cluster of companies, the combined strength of which means that they will have a better chance of surviving and working together, which will lead to bigger markets. All that is being put in place. The electronics sector has taken the same initiative. I do not write off, for one minute, the work that those companies are undertaking. I wish them every success and that we could sometimes consider the human misery that is caused by these events and what the Assembly can do to help, rather than blame the world around us. We should ask how the Assembly can protect people.
Mae’n ddiddorol clywed Alun Cairns yn disgrifio Armagedon, sydd fel pe bai wedi cyrraedd yn gynnar. Mae’n bleser gennyf nodi bod y Ceidwadwyr bellach o blaid y Cynulliad yn penderfynu ar bolisi macro-economaidd. Sôn am dröedigaeth ar y ffordd o lle bynnag. Y pwynt hanfodol, y mae Alun yn barod i’w anwybyddu, yw nad yw’r weinyddiaeth hon wedi anobeithio ynghylch Valeo. Ymddengys ei fod ef wedi gwneud hynny eisoes drwy ddiystyru’r potensial ar gyfer arbed unrhyw beth o’r cwmni hwn. Nid ydym ni wedi ei ddiystyru. Mae Alun am i’r sector preifat roi arweiniad a dyna’r rheswm am fodolaeth Sbardun Cymru. Dengys sut y gall y sector preifat roi arweiniad, gyrru’r agenda yn ei blaen ac adeiladu clwstwr cryfach o gwmnïau, y mae eu nerth cyfun yn golygu y bydd ganddynt well siawns o oroesi a chydweithio, a fydd yn arwain at farchnadoedd mwy. Mae hynny oll yn cael ei roi ar waith. Mae’r sector trydanol wedi cymryd yr un cam. Ni ddiystyriaf, am un funud, y gwaith y mae’r cwmnïau hynny yn ymgymryd ag ef. Dymunaf bob llwyddiant iddynt a hoffwn pe gallem weithiau ystyried y diflastod y mae’r digwyddiadau hyn yn ei achosi i bobl a’r hyn y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud i gynorthwyo, yn hytrach na beio’r byd o’n hamgylch. Dylem ofyn sut y gall y Cynulliad ddiogelu pobl.
Many of my constituents are also affected by this news. You mentioned that the factory was being forced to close, but do you agree that the workforce accepts, at least in part, that it is the result of the company’s choosing to seek cheaper labour in the Czech Republic? That is despite the workforce’s excellent performance in Valeo in Gorseinon. You said that the plant opened in 1992, but that is not the whole story. It moved to Gorseinon from Ammanford having obtained significant regional selective assistance grants to secure and develop jobs. That was in 1992, only nine years ago. Do you agree that that is also causing disappointment among the workforce? I hope that the WDA will succeed in marketing the site so that those jobs can be secured.
Mae’r newyddion hwn yn effeithio ar lawer o’m hetholwyr i hefyd. Crybwyllasoch fod y ffatri yn cael ei gorfodi i gau, ond a gytunwch fod y gweithlu yn derbyn, yn rhannol o leiaf, ei fod yn ganlyniad i ddewis a wnaeth y cwmni i geisio llafur rhatach yn y Weriniaeth Tsiec? Yr oedd hynny er gwaethaf perfformiad gwych y gweithlu yn Valeo yng Ngorseinon. Dywedasoch i’r ffatri agor yn 1992, ond nid dyna ddiwedd y stori. Symudodd i Orseinon o Rydaman ar ôl cael grantiau cymorth dethol rhanbarthol sylweddol i sicrhau a datblygu swyddi. Yn 1992 yr oedd hynny, dim ond naw mlynedd yn ôl. A gytunwch fod hynny hefyd yn peri siom ymhlith y gweithlu? Gobeithiaf y llwydda Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru i farchnata’r safle er mwyn sicrhau’r swyddi hynny.
You are right to remind us that the factory moved from Ammanford to Swansea in 1992 and that it received significant investment from governments over the years to help it grow and develop. My statement outlined the company’s stated reasons for its closure. That does not mean that we have to accept those views; that is what the company claims. It claims that the plant is becoming economically unviable for the reasons outlined in my statement. That does not mean that we accept that that is the position or that we are not seeking whatever means possible to act for the workforce and the site. We will take on board all your comments. I am grateful for your comments today, particularly on the cause for concern that the company received investment from the public purse. We wish to see that public purse investment sustained.
Yr ydych yn iawn i’n hatgoffa i’r ffatri symud o Rydaman i Abertawe yn 1992 ac iddo dderbyn cryn fuddsoddiad gan lywodraethau dros y blynyddoedd i’w gynorthwyo i dyfu a datblygu. Yr oedd fy natganiad yn amlinellu rhesymau datganedig y cwmni dros gau. Ni olyga hynny bod yn rhaid inni dderbyn y safbwyntiau hynny; dyna y mae’r cwmni yn ei honni. Honna fod y ffatri yn mynd yn economaidd anymarferol am y rhesymau a amlinellwyd yn fy natganiad. Ni olyga hynny ein bod yn derbyn mai dyna’r sefyllfa neu nad ydym yn ceisio pa ddulliau posibl bynnag i weithredu dros y gweithlu a’r safle. Ystyriwn eich holl sylwadau. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau heddiw, yn arbennig ynghylch y mater o bryder i’r cwmni dderbyn buddsoddiad o’r pwrs cyhoeddus. Yr ydym am weld y buddsoddiad hwnnw o’r pwrs cyhoeddus yn cael ei gynnal.
Many Members from all parties have expressed their distress and concern for the individuals and families affected by this. However, what I found most distressing in the last few minutes was the sight of the Deputy First Minister laughing when this issue was raised. You cannot deny it, because it is on camera. That was totally unacceptable. I will not discuss the individuals affected any further because enough has been said. Admittedly enough cannot be said, but much has been said already. South Wales West is in a strategic area for economic development. It is the most westerly part of industrial south Wales and as jobs are lost and drain away from South Wales West, that will leave the hinterland of the South Wales West constituency in a difficult economic situation. We must address that. Port Talbot and Swansea are pivotal in the Objective 1 area and a much larger area beyond. We have encountered these kinds of job losses for months and years. The Government complains that perhaps the workforce is not good enough or perhaps the management is not good or open enough. That has been said. However, we must look at ourselves and find out what we are doing wrong. We must address these job losses and the economic situation in this area.
Mae llawer o Aelodau o bob plaid wedi mynegi eu gofid a’u pryder dros yr unigolion a’r teuluoedd y mae hyn yn effeithio arnynt. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn a barodd y gofid mwyaf imi yn ystod yr ychydig funudau diwethaf oedd gweld Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru yn chwerthin pan godwyd y mater. Ni allwch wadu hynny, oherwydd mae’r camera wedi eich dal. Yr oedd hynny yn gwbl annerbyniol. Ni thrafodaf yr unigolion yr effeithir arnynt ymhellach gan fod digon wedi ei ddweud. Mae’n wir na ellir dweud digon, ond mae llawer wedi ei ddweud eisoes. Mae Gorllewin De Cymru mewn ardal strategol ar gyfer datblygu economaidd. Rhan fwyaf gorllewinol de Cymru ddiwydiannol ydyw ac wrth i swyddi gael eu colli a’u draenio ymaith o Orllewin De Cymru, bydd hynny yn gadael cyffiniau etholaeth Gorllewin De Cymru mewn sefyllfa economaidd anodd. Rhaid inni roi sylw i hynny. Mae Port Talbot ac Abertawe yn ganolog yn yr ardal Amcan 1 ac mewn ardal lawer mwy y tu hwnt. Profasom y math hwn o golli swyddi am fisoedd a blynyddoedd. Cwyna’r Llywodraeth nad yw’r gweithlu efallai yn ddigon da neu nad yw’r rheolaeth efallai yn ddigon dda neu agored. Dywedwyd hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni edrych arnom ein hunain a chanfod yr hyn na wnawn yn gywir. Rhaid inni roi sylw i’r swyddi hyn a gollir ac i’r sefyllfa economaidd yn yr ardal hon.
That is what I was trying to outline. We must be careful that we do not make inaccurate statements. The fact is that there are fewer unemployed people in Wales now than a year ago. However, our manufacturing economy has suffered a number of serious hammer blows. We understand the reasons behind that. The reasons given by companies for movements and changes are not unclear. We have tried, and must continue, to find ways in which we can assist.
Dyna yr oeddwn yn ceisio ei amlinellu. Rhaid inni fod yn ofalus na wnawn ddatganiadau anghywir. Y ffaith amdani yw bod llai o bobl ddi-waith yng Nghymru bellach nag yr oedd flwyddyn yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, profodd ein heconomi weithgynhyrchu nifer o ergydion trwm difrifol. Deallwn y rhesymau y tu ôl i hynny. Nid yw’r rhesymau a roddir gan gwmnïau dros symudiadau a newidiadau yn aneglur. Yr ydym wedi ceisio canfod ffyrdd o gynorthwyo, a rhaid inni barhau i wneud hynny.
I hope that I have illustrated that industry-led clusters are the right way forward. They can take the agenda into their own hands, build bigger markets and strategically position themselves in the market place so that they can weather the storm more comfortably. The National Assembly can aid them in achieving that. We must also ensure that we provide the levels of support that ensure that companies can quickly recover from moments of difficulty and problems. This is a serious matter, and I am sure that you will have concluded that I was not laughing at this statement. I was merely laughing at the Conservative Party.
Gobeithiaf fy mod wedi dangos mai clystyrau a arweinir gan y diwydiant yw’r ffordd gywir ymlaen. Gallant gymryd yr agenda i’w dwylo eu hunain, adeiladu marchnadoedd mwy a lleoli eu hunain yn strategol yn y farchnad er mwyn iddynt allu dod drwy’r gwaethaf yn fwy cyffyrddus. Gall y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol eu cynorthwyo wrth gyflawni hynny. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd ein bod yn darparu’r lefelau o gefnogaeth sydd yn sicrhau y gall cwmnïau ddod dros gyfnodau o anhawster a phroblemau yn gyflym. Mae hyn yn fater difrifol, ac yr wyf yn siwr y byddwch wedi dod i’r casgliad nad oeddwn yn chwerthin ar y datganiad hwn. Yr oeddwn yn chwerthin ar y Blaid Geidwadol.
Further to that comment, do you share my astonishment at Alun Cairns’s tirade in defence of the manufacturing industry? The phrase involving pots and kettles springs to mind. Do you share my wonder at what sort of reality he inhabited during the 18 years before May 1997, when the manufacturing industry was all but wiped out in this country thanks to the policies that his Government espoused?
Yn dilyn y sylw hwnnw, a rannwch fy syfrdandod at araith lem Alun Cairns i amddiffyn y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu? Daw’r dywediad Saesneg am sosbanau a thegellau i’r meddwl. A rannwch fy syndod at y math o realiti y bu’n byw ynddo yn ystod y 18 mlynedd cyn Mai 1997, pan ddilëwyd y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu fwy neu lai yn y wlad hon diolch i’r polisïau a goleddwyd gan ei Lywodraeth ef?
I am grateful for that, Richard. To give you a statistic, between June 1980 and June 1982—a period equivalent to the time that the National Assembly has been in place—under the Conservative administration, the working population in Wales fell by 106,000.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny, Richard. Rhoddaf ystadegyn ichi. Rhwng Mehefin 1980 a Mehefin 1982—cyfnod sydd yn cyfateb i oes y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—o dan weinyddiaeth y Ceidwadwyr, syrthiodd poblogaeth waith Cymru gan 106,000.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
I thank the Minister for his statement. I draw to Members’ attention again that the purpose of statements is for Members to ask questions, not to make speeches as if it were a debate.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei ddatganiad. Tynnaf sylw’r Aelodau eto at y ffaith mai diben datganiadau yw i Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau, nid gwneud areithiau fel pe bai’n ddadl.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
That also applies to you, Alun. I ask Members, particularly the parties’ leading spokespeople, even when they make a statement as a preface to a point, to try to round off their remarks with questions. They should not use statements as an opportunity for a surrogate debate.
Mae hynny’n berthnasol i chi hefyd, Alun. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau, ac yn arbennig i brif lefarwyr y pleidiau, hyd yn oed pan wnânt ddatganiad fel rhagair i bwynt, geisio dod â’u sylwadau i ben â chwestiynau. Ni ddylent ddefnyddio datganiadau fel cyfle am ddadl ddirprwyol.
Datganiad ar y Daeargryn yn Gujarat
Statement on the Earthquake in Gujarat
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 32
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
I will make a brief statement on the tragic earthquake in western India on Friday, 26 January. It was a massive earthquake, its epicentre being 50 kilometres north-east of the town of Bhuj in the state of Gujarat, India. That state has strong links with the Gujarati community in the UK, which is concentrated mostly in and around Cardiff, Leicester and Bolton.
Gwnaf ddatganiad byr ar y daeargryn trychinebus yng ngorllewin India ddydd Gwener, 26 Ionawr. Yr oedd yn ddaeargryn enfawr, gyda’i uwchganolbwynt 50 cilomedr i’r gogledd-ddwyrain o dref Bhuj yn nhalaith Gujarat, India. Mae gan y dalaith honno gysylltiadau cryf â’r gymuned Gujarati yn y DU, sydd wedi’i lleoli’n bennaf yn ac o amgylch Caerdydd, Caerlyr a Bolton.
The latest estimates are that over 20,000 people are presumed dead. Thousands more are missing, and about 50,000 people are reported injured. Initial reports suggest that 500,000 people have been left homeless. Yesterday, the Secretary of State for International Development, Clare Short, made a statement in the House of Commons on the earthquake and the efforts of the UK Government and the wider international community to provide aid. She gave details of contact points, which I have arranged to be made available to Members on the Chamberweb. Details of her statement can be accessed on the Department for International Development’s website.
Mae’r amcangyfrifon diweddaraf yn awgrymu bod dros 20,000 o bobl wedi marw. Mae miloedd o bobl eraill ar goll, a dywedir bod tua 50,000 wedi’u hanafu. Mae adroddiadau cychwynnol yn awgrymu bod 500,000 o bobl bellach yn ddigartref. Ddoe, gwnaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddatblygu Rhyngwladol, Clare Short, ddatganiad yn Nhy’r Cyffredin ar y daeargryn ac ymdrechion Llywodraeth y DU a’r gymuned ryngwladol ehangach i ddarparu cymorth. Rhoddodd fanylion am y pwyntiau cyswllt, ac yr wyf wedi trefnu i’r rhain fod ar gael i Aelodau ar we’r Siambr. Gallwch ddarllen manylion ei datganiad ar wefan yr Adran dros Ddatblygu Rhyngwladol.
I have contacted members of the Gujarati community in Cardiff during the past few days and I am pleased to see its representatives here today. They have been telling me of their efforts to open up communications with the affected areas. At a UK level, aid is being co-ordinated by the Office for International Development. However, at a community level in Cardiff, it is being co-ordinated by the Shree Kutch Leva Patel community centre in Merches Place, Grangetown.
Cysylltais ag aelodau o’r gymuned Gujarati yng Nghaerdydd yn ystod yr ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf ac yr wyf yn falch o weld ei chynrychiolwyr yma heddiw. Maent wedi bod yn dweud wrthyf am eu hymdrechion i geisio cysylltu â’r ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Ar lefel y DU, caiff y cymorth ei gydlynu gan y Swyddfa Datblygu Rhyngwladol. Fodd bynnag, ar lefel gymunedol yng Nghaerdydd, caiff ei gydlynu gan ganolfan gymunedol Shree Kutch Leva Patel yn Merches Place, Grangetown.
The worry and anxiety that members of this community are living through at the moment, as they try to discover whether their relatives and friends are alive or dead, injured or fit and homeless or housed, must be truly awful. I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole Assembly in saying that our hearts go out to them at this terrible time. We will discuss with them whether the Assembly can help and when it can do so.
Mae’n rhaid bod y pryder a’r poen meddwl y mae aelodau o’r gymuned hon yn ei brofi ar hyn o bryd, wrth iddynt geisio canfod pa un ai a yw eu perthnasau a’u ffrindiau’n fyw neu’n farw, wedi’u hanafu neu’n holliach ac yn ddigartref neu â chartref, yn ofnadwy. Yr wyf yn siwr fy mod yn siarad ar ran y Cynulliad cyfan drwy ddweud ein bod yn cydymdeimlo’n fawr â hwy yn ystod yr amser ofnadwy hwn. Byddwn yn trafod gyda hwy pa un ai a all y Cynulliad gynorthwyo a phryd y gall wneud hynny.
I thank the First Minister for his statement. The situation in India puts our lives into perspective. It goes without saying that our thoughts are with the members of the Gujarati community in Wales, in Cardiff in particular. We, in the comfort of our homes and workplaces, cannot possibly have any idea of the current conditions in Gujarat—either in Bhuj or the 24 surrounding villages. Talking to some of our friends here earlier today, it is clear that not only has the town been destroyed, but that all those small surrounding villages are also affected. The devastation is widespread.
Diolchaf i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad. Rhydd y sefyllfa yn India ein bywydau ni mewn persbectif. Nid oes angen dweud bod aelodau’r gymuned Gujarati yng Nghymru, ac yng Nghaerdydd yn arbennig, yn ein meddyliau. Ni allwn, ym moethusrwydd ein cartrefi a’n gweithleoedd, ddechrau dychmygu’r amgylchiadau presennol yn Gujarat—yn Bhuj nac yn y 24 o bentrefi cyfagos. Ar ôl siarad yn gynharach â rhai o’n cyfeillion yma heddiw, mae’n amlwg nad dim ond y dref sydd wedi’i dinistrio, ond yr effeithiwyd hefyd ar yr holl bentrefi bach cyfagos. Mae’r dinistr ar raddfa fawr.
Every Gujarati family in Wales is affected by the loss of, or injury to, a member of their family. It is such a close-knit community that they all recognise the names that appear in the list on the internet of those who have been killed. The situation is harrowing and we all feel helpless. We are grateful for the opportunity to express our feelings here today. The most important action that we can take, other than to send our thoughts to all the families, is to send money. It is as basic as that. Many clothes and blankets have been collected, but money will be needed to send them to India. It will also take a long time for them to be transported, as the road structure has been damaged. By sending money, we can also give survivors the benefit of being able to purchase supplies as near as they can to their communities, whether that be in Bombay or in any of the other large cities. The economy in Gujarat has been devastated and banks have been destroyed. Even if people could travel to the banks in Bombay, they would not have their documents because they have lost all of their belongings. As I said earlier, we cannot imagine what these people are going through.
Mae pob teulu Gujarati yng Nghymru wedi colli aelod o’u teulu neu mae aelod o’u teulu wedi’i anafu. Mae’n gymuned mor glòs fel bod pawb yn adnabod yr enwau sydd yn ymddangos ar y rhestr ar y rhyngrwyd o’r rhai sydd wedi’u lladd. Mae’r sefyllfa’n ingol ac yr ydym oll yn teimlo’n ddiymadferth. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar o gael y cyfle i fynegi ein teimladau yma heddiw. Y peth pwysicaf y gallwn ei wneud, ar wahân i fynegi ein cydymdeimlad â’r holl deuluoedd, yw anfon arian. Mae mor sylfaenol â hynny. Casglwyd nifer o ddillad a blancedi eisoes, ond bydd angen arian i’w hanfon i India. Bydd hefyd yn cymryd cryn amser i’w cludo yno, gan fod strwythur y ffyrdd wedi’i ddifrodi. Drwy anfon arian, gallwn hefyd alluogi’r rhai sydd wedi goroesi i brynu cyflenwadau mor agos â phosibl i’w cymunedau eu hunain, boed hynny yn Bombay neu unrhyw un o’r dinasoedd mawr eraill. Mae economi Gujarat wedi’i distrywio ac mae’r banciau wedi’u dinistrio. Hyd yn oed pe gallai pobl deithio i’r banciau yn Bombay, ni fyddai eu dogfennau ganddynt am eu bod wedi colli eu holl eiddo. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, ni allwn ddychmygu’r hyn y mae’r bobl hyn yn ei brofi.
Will the First Minister—in conjunction with the Presiding Officer, I presume—allow a collection of some sort in the Assembly, possibly on Thursday, when we next meet in Plenary? If anyone who is listening wants to make a donation, the National Westminster Bank has agreed to handle donations. Cheques can be made payable to the Shree Swaminarayan Temple Earthquake Appeal. I am sure that, if people telephone the Assembly, someone can give them that information. On behalf of the Gujarat community in Wales, I thank the First Minister for his statement.
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog—mewn cydweithrediad â’r Llywydd, fe dybiaf—ganiatáu casgliad o ryw fath yn y Cynulliad, ddydd Iau o bosibl, yn ystod y Cyfarfod Llawn nesaf? Os bydd unrhyw un sydd yn gwrando yn dymuno gwneud rhodd, mae Banc National Westminster wedi cytuno i ddelio â rhoddion. Gellir gwneud sieciau’n daladwy i Apêl Daeargryn Shree Swaminarayan Temple. Yr wyf yn siwr, os bydd pobl yn ffonio’r Cynulliad, y gall rhywun gyfleu’r wybodaeth honno iddynt. Ar ran y gymuned Gujarat yng Nghymru, diolchaf i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 34
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I thank Lorraine for the information contained in the last sentences of her contribution. I agree that the supply of information on how extensive the damage has been and, therefore, the right way to approach the priorities for community recovery, is difficult. At the moment, there is difficulty in getting any information. That is hardly the fault of the Indian Government or the Indian telecommunications companies, as the infrastructure was destroyed by the strength of the earthquake. Families face difficulties in contacting the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or the High Commission of India in London, as they cannot get information either. Although some people are desperately trying to telephone their families in Gujarat, there is little point in doing so, because there is almost no mobile or landline telecommunications infrastructure left. Initially, we must try to measure how awful and extensive the damage is and how long it will take the Kutch region of the state of Gujarat to recover from the devastation. I agree with Lorraine’s suggestion that, once we have the information and once we know the contact points, we should try to assist the community to raise money to help rebuild that shattered region.
Diolchaf i Lorraine am yr wybodaeth ym mrawddegau olaf ei chyfraniad. Cytunaf fod trosglwyddo gwybodaeth ar faint y difrod ac, felly, penderfynu ar y ffordd orau o nodi blaenoriaethau ar gyfer adfer cymunedau, yn anodd. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n anodd cael gafael ar unrhyw wybodaeth. Nid bai Llywodraeth India yw hynny na chwmnïau telathrebu India, gan fod nerth y daeargryn wedi dinistrio’r isadeiledd. Mae teuluoedd yn profi anawsterau wrth geisio cysylltu â’r Swyddfa Dramor a’r Gymanwlad neu Uchel Gomisiwn India yn Llundain, gan na allant hwy ychwaith gael gafael ar wybodaeth. Er bod rhai pobl yn ceisio’n ddyfal i gysylltu â’u teuluoedd yn Gujarat, nid oes llawer o bwynt gwneud hynny, am nad oes llawer o isadeiliedd telathrebu symudol na thirwifrau ar ôl. I ddechrau, rhaid inni geisio mesur pa mor ddifrifol a helaeth yw’r difrod a faint o amser y bydd yn ei gymryd i ranbarth Kutch o dalaith Gujarat adfer yn dilyn y distryw. Cytunaf ag awgrym Lorraine y dylem geisio cynorthwyo’r gymuned i godi arian i gynorthwyo wrth ailadeiladu’r rhanbarth ddistrywiedig ar ôl inni dderbyn yr wybodaeth ac ar ôl inni sefydlu’r pwyntiau cyswllt.
Ar ran grwp Plaid Cymru yn y Cynulliad, ategaf sylwadau Prif Weinidog Cymru. Yn naturiol, mae effeithiau dychrynllyd y daeargryn yn India wedi ein cyffwrdd oll. Golyga maint y drychineb fod angen cymorth sylweddol ar y cymunedau yn nhalaith Gujarat. Fel y dywedodd Lorraine, yr ydym oll yn sylweddoli bod teuluoedd yng Nghymru wedi colli anwyliaid yn y drychineb, a chydymdeimlwn â hwy.
On behalf of the Plaid Cymru group in the Assembly, I support the First Minister’s comments. Naturally, the terrible effects of the earthquake in India have touched us all. The sheer scale of the disaster means that the communities in the state of Gujarat need a great deal of assistance. As Lorraine said, we are all aware that families in Wales have lost loved ones in the tragedy, and we sympathise with them.
Derbyniwn oll hefyd fod gennym gyfrifoldeb i gyfrannu adnoddau ac arian i gynorthwyo’r trueiniaid. Diolchwn i Clare Short a’r Adran dros Ddatblygu Rhyngwladol am ymateb yn fuan i’r argyfwng hwn, a hyderwn y gall yr adran gyfrannu mwy. Gwyddwn y bydd pobl Cymru am gyfrannu ym mhob ffordd bosibl. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn cael cyfle yn y Cynulliad heddiw i gydymdeimlo â phobl India, a ddioddefasant mor enbyd yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf. Mae’n gwbl briodol ein bod yn cofnodi hynny yma heddiw. Ategaf alwad Lorraine inni wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i gynorthwyo, nid yn unig fel corff yn y Cynulliad, ond fel Aelodau unigol.
We all also accept that we have a responsibility to contribute resources and money to assist the victims. We thank Clare Short and the Department for International Development for responding swiftly to this crisis and we hope that the department can contribute further. We know that the people of Wales will want to contribute in every way possible. I am pleased that we have an opportunity in the Assembly today to sympathise with the people of India, who have suffered so greatly during the last few days. It is entirely appropriate that we place that on record here today. I echo Lorraine’s call for us to do all that we can to help, not only as an Assembly, but as individual Members.
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 35
Yr hyn sydd yn benodol i ni, yn y lle cyntaf, yw cynorthwyo’r gymuned o Gujarat yma yng Nghaerdydd yn enwedig, ond yng Nghymru gyfan hefyd, i gael gwybodaeth ynglyn â’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd i’w teuluoedd. Gallwn weld ar y teledu mai’r gamp fwyaf ar hyn o bryd yw llusgo cyrff a phobl sydd yn dal i fod yn fyw, yn wyrthiol, allan o adfeilion yr adeiladau a gafodd eu dymchwel. Ar ôl hynny, efallai y bydd cyfnod pan fydd triniaeth feddygol yn bwysicach er mwyn osgoi colera, teiffoid ac afiechydon eraill sydd yn lledaenu ar ôl deargryn. Bydd galwad wedyn am ail adeiladu ac ail-ddatblygu’r ardal. Yn y cyfnodau gwahanol hyn, bydd gennym ninnau rôl wrth gynorthwyo cymuned Gujarat. Mae clwstwr niferus o’r cymunedau hyn yng Nghaerdydd, Caerlyr a Bolton. Dyna’r tri chlwstwr mwyaf niferus ym Mhrydain. Bydd angen cymorth ar eu teuluoedd i gynorthwyo wrth ailadeiladu eu talaith yn India.
What is specific to us is assisting, in the first place, the Gujarat community here in Cardiff, in particular, but also in the whole of Wales, to get information about what has happened to their families. We can see on television that the greatest feat now is to remove the bodies and to find the people who are miraculously still alive and save them from the ruins of the fallen buildings. Following that, there will be a period perhaps when medical treatment will become more important to avoid cholera, typhoid and other diseases that spread following earthquakes. There will then be a need to rebuild and redevelop the area. In these various phases, we will have a role in assisting the Gujarat community. There is a substantial cluster of these communities in Cardiff, Leicester and Bolton. Those are the three biggest clusters in Britain. Their relatives will need assistance to rebuild their state in India.
I thank the First Minister for his statement today and I echo the sentiments of previous speakers and endorse their comments. There have been several tragedies of this nature around the world, but none on this scale. It is possible that it is even worse than the First Minister’s statement suggests, given what I saw on the news last night. I endorse Lorraine Barrett’s suggestion of a collection. The fees office might allow us to make a direct contribution. While I fully welcome Claire Short’s announcement yesterday, I wonder, given the fact that the Gujarati community has a large presence here—many of us will have friends among them—and given that the area affected is also the size of Wales, whether there is money under announced emergency headlines in the Assembly budget so that we could make a gesture of support to that community.
Diolchaf i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad heddiw, ac ategaf deimladau’r siaradwyr blaenorol a chymeradwyaf eu sylwadau. Gwelwyd sawl trychineb debyg ledled y byd, ond nid ar y raddfa hon. Mae’n bosibl ei bod hyd yn oed yn waeth na’r hyn a awgrymir yn natganiad y Prif Weinidog, o gofio’r hyn a welais ar y newyddion neithiwr. Cymeradwyaf awgrym Lorraine Barrett y dylid cynnal casgliad. Efallai y gallai’r swyddfa ffïoedd ganiatáu inni wneud cyfraniad uniongyrchol. Er fy mod yn croesawu datganiad Clare Short ddoe, tybed, o ystyried bod gan y gymuned Gujarati bresenoldeb amlwg yma—bydd gan nifer ohonom gyfeillion yn eu plith—ac o ystyried bod yr ardal yr effeithiwyd arni hefyd yr un maint â Chymru, a oes arian o dan benawdau argyfwng a gyhoeddwyd ar gael yng nghyllideb y Cynulliad er mwyn inni allu cefnogi’r gymuned honno.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 36
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I am grateful for all of those suggestions. There would be a problem with the legality of your final suggestion. Assembly funds could not be committed. I do not believe that there is any way of doing that legally. I am speaking off the top of my head, but I will explore it. Individual Assembly Members may contribute, and members of staff may also wish to do so. However, they would contribute as individuals for legal reasons relating to our remit as an Assembly.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr holl awgrymiadau hynny. Byddai problem yn codi o ran cyfreithlondeb eich awgrym olaf. Ni ellid ymrwymo arian y Cynulliad. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw ffordd o wneud hynny’n gyfreithlon. Nid wyf yn sicr o’r ffeithiau, ond gwnaf ymholiadau am hynny. Gall Aelodau unigol o’r Cynulliad gyfrannu, ac efallai y bydd aelodau o’r staff hefyd yn dymuno gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddent yn cyfrannu fel unigolion am resymau cyfreithiol sydd yn gysylltiedig â’n cylch gorchwyl fel Cynulliad.
I agree that the damage may be greater than shown in the figures that I gave. I gave the relatively conservative estimates that we received from official sources. When people talk about a 20,000 death toll, everyone would agree that that is an awesome figure. However, far higher estimates have also been given by non-governmental organisations. Some have given estimates of 100,000. However, the official Indian Government estimate is 20,000.
Cytunaf y gallai’r difrod fod yn llawer gwaeth na’r hyn a ddangoswyd yn y ffigurau a roddais. Rhoddais yr amcangyfrifon eithaf ceidwadol a dderbyniwyd gennym o ffynonellau swyddogol. Pan fydd pobl yn sôn am 20,000 o farwolaethau, byddai pawb yn cytuno bod y swm hwnnw’n aruthrol. Fodd bynnag, rhoddwyd amcangyfrifon llawer uwch hefyd gan sefydliadau nad ydynt yn rhan o’r Llywodraeth. Mae rhai wedi amcangyfrif 100,000. Fodd bynnag, amcangyfrif swyddogol Llywodraeth India yw 20,000.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 37
Michael German Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I associate myself with your comments and those of other colleagues in the Chamber today. This is a tragedy of unmeasurable proportions. We have never seen a tragedy on such an unimaginable scale. Whatever our problems in Wales, whether we feel that we are given a rough deal, a crisis of this scale in India should make all of us appreciate our health, wealth and stability. Families and friends will mourn the loss of every person who has died. It is, as you said, like mourning the loss of a close relative or friend that you never get over. The number does not dehumanise this personal tragedy, which people in Cardiff and elsewhere in the country are feeling. It is an opportunity for us all to break down the petty walls of nationalism and parochialism to share in the humanity of this issue. I welcome the suggestions earlier that the First Minister and the Presiding Officer could consider ways in which the Assembly can make our help and thoughts known to the people who are affected in Wales and beyond by some form of contribution, be it practical or financial.
Ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ategaf eich sylwadau a rhai fy nghyd-Aelodau eraill yn y Siambr heddiw. Mae hon yn drychineb ar raddfa anfesuradwy. Ni welsom drychineb ar raddfa mor anhygoel erioed o’r blaen. Beth bynnag fo’n problemau yma yng Nghymru, pa un ai a ydym o’r farn ein bod yn cael triniaeth annheg, dylai trychineb ar y raddfa hon yn India wneud inni oll werthfawrogi ein hiechyd, ein cyfoeth a’n sefydlogrwydd. Bydd teuluoedd a chyfeillion yn galaru dros bob person a fu farw. Fel y dywedasoch, mae’n debyg i alaru am golli perthynas neu gyfaill agos na fyddwch byth yn dod drosto. Nid yw’r nifer yn diddynoli’r drasiedi bersonol hon, y mae pobl yng Nghaerdydd ac yn rhannau eraill o’r wlad yn ei phrofi. Mae’n gyfle inni oll ddiddymu rhwystrau dibwys cenedlaetholdeb a phlwyfoldeb a rhannu yn nynoliaeth y mater hwn. Croesawaf yr awgrymiadau yn gynharach y gallai Prif Weinidog Cymru a’r Llywydd ystyried ffyrdd y gall y Cynulliad gyfleu ein cymorth a’n cydymdeimlad i’r bobl hynny yr effeithiwyd arnynt yng Nghymru a thu hwnt ar ffurf rhyw fath o gyfraniad, boed hynny’n gyfraniad ymarferol neu ariannol.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 37
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
I am happy to consider all those points. You are right about putting our concerns into perspective. They can almost seem petty in comparison, although they are the day-to-day meat and drink of our political life in Wales. It always astonishes me that, when you see the images—through television you see them fairly immediately, as though you lived there, even though you live thousands of miles away—the global village comes home to you. We see the astonishing stoicism of people who live in earthquake zones. There was a case today of somebody being pulled alive out of the wreckage after 104 hours without food and drink. You wonder how anybody can survive for so long without food or drink, while people are dying around them.
Yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried yr holl bwyntiau hynny. Yr ydych yn gywir i ddweud y dylai hyn roi ein pryderon mewn persbectif. Gallant ymddangos yn ddibwys bron o’u cymharu, er mai dyma yw lluniaeth ein bywyd gwleidyddol yma yng Nghymru o ddydd i ddydd. Mae’n fy synnu bob tro, pan welwch y delweddau—byddwch yn eu gweld ar unwaith bron ar y teledu, fel pe baech yn byw yno, er eich bod yn byw filoedd o filltiroedd i ffwrdd—fod y cysyniad o bentref byd-eang yn dod yn fyw i chi. Fe welwn stoiciaeth ryfeddol pobl sydd yn byw mewn ardaloedd lle ceir daeargrynfeydd. Gwelwyd achos heddiw o rywun yn cael ei lusgo allan yn fyw o’r adfeilion ar ôl bod heb fwyd na diod am 104 awr. Yr ydych yn rhyfeddu sut y gallai unrhyw un fyw cyhyd heb fwyd na diod, tra bod pobl yn marw o’u hamgylch.
If you live in an earthquake zone, I guess that you are brought up to expect it. However, Gujarat is not particularly known as an earthquake zone and there has not been a major earthquake there for some 200 years. It is not like areas near the San Andreas Fault or parts of Turkey, where earthquakes occur every 25 years. This was completely unexpected, although there was an earthquake centuries ago. However, people’s stoicism and ability to cope with what you assume would be utterly shattering blows is beyond belief. We have to admire the resolute way in which the Indian population and authorities have dealt with this incredible tragedy.
Os ydych yn byw mewn ardal lle ceir daeargrynfeydd, mae’n debyg y cewch eich magu i’w ddisgwyl. Fodd bynnag, nid yw Gujarat yn nodedig fel ardal lle ceir daeargrynfeydd ac ni welwyd daeargryn mawr yno ers tua 200 mlynedd. Nid yw’n debyg i ardaloedd ger Ffawt San Andreas neu rannau o Dwrci, lle mae daeargrynfeydd yn digwydd bob 25 mlynedd. Yr oedd hyn yn gwbl annisgwyl, er i ddaeargryn ddigwydd ganrifoedd yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, mae stoiciaeth a gallu pobl i ymdopi â’r hyn y credech y byddai’n gwbl ddinistriol yn anghredadwy. Ni allwn ond edmygu’r ffordd benderfynol y mae poblogaeth ac awdurdodau India wedi ymdopi â’r drychineb anhygoel hon.
I am struck by Members’ comments about the need for immediate help and support for the Gujarat community in India and the tremendous work being done by their friends and relatives in Cardiff. My colleague, Jenny Randerson, in her capacity as Assembly Member for Cardiff Central, met them earlier today.
Mae sylwadau’r Aelodau am yr angen am gymorth a chefnogaeth ar fyrder i’r gymuned Gujarat yn India a’r gwaith gwych a wneir gan eu cyfeillion a’u perthnasau yng Nghymru yn glodwiw. Cyfarfu fy nghyd-Aelod, Jenny Randerson, yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel Aelod Cynulliad dros Ganol Caerdydd, â hwy yn gynharach heddiw.
However, I am concerned that, while we are helping in the immediate future, we need to find a mechanism to help later on, when our newspapers and television screens no longer show pictures of the terrible devastation there. It will take many years for the Gujarat area of India to be rebuilt, and the support that we give should not only be in the short term, but in the longer term also. Will you give a commitment to consider opportunities for long-term support from the National Assembly for Wales and to keep us updated about the long-term efforts that the Westminster Government will put into supporting this region?
Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sydd yn peri pryder i mi yw, er ein bod yn darparu cymorth yn y dyfodol agos, fod angen inni ganfod ffordd o gynorthwyo yn ddiweddarach, pan na fydd ein papurau newydd a’n sgriniau teledu’n dangos lluniau o’r distryw erchyll yno mwyach. Cymer flynyddoedd lawer i ailadeiladu ardal Gujarat yn India, ac ni ddylai’r gefnogaeth a roddwn fod ar gyfer y tymor byr yn unig, ond ar gyfer y tymor hwy hefyd. A wnewch ymrwymo i ystyried cyfleoedd ar gyfer cefnogaeth tymor hir gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a rhoi’r manylion diweddaraf inni am yr ymdrechion tymor hir y bydd Llywodraeth San Steffan yn eu gwneud er mwyn cynorthwyo’r rhanbarth hon?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 38
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I would have thought that it would take 10 or 15 years to rebuild the Gujarat state to its position before last Friday. I am sure that, long after the television crews have gone, much patient work will continue to re-erect houses and re-establish the modern infrastructure, such as telecommunications, water and sewerage, schools and colleges, hospitals and so forth. That is a long-term job, given the scale of this tragedy. As responsible politicians, we must keep this situation in mind long after it has ceased to be headline news. We will need to work in support of the Department for International Development, as it assists Gujarat state and the other Indian authorities to rebuild the shattered area.
Byddwn yn dychmygu y byddai’n cymryd 10 neu 15 mlynedd i ailadeiladu talaith Gujarat i’r cyflwr yr oedd ynddo cyn dydd Gwener diwethaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd llawer o waith amyneddgar yn parhau am amser maith ar ôl i’r criwiau teledu adael er mwyn ailadeiladu tai ac ailsefydlu’r isadeiledd modern, fel telathrebu, dŵr a charthffosiaeth, ysgolion a cholegau, ysbytai ac ati. Mae hynny’n waith tymor hir, o ystyried maint y drasiedi hon. Fel gwleidyddion cyfrifol, rhaid inni gadw’r sefyllfa mewn cof ymhell ar ôl iddi ddiflannu o benawdau’r newyddion. Bydd angen inni weithio i gefnogi’r Adran dros Ddatblygu Rhyngwladol, wrth iddi gynorthwyo talaith Gujarat a’r awdurdodau eraill yn India i ailadeiladu’r ardal ddrylliedig.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
I am grateful to the First Minister for that statement, and to all Members who have spoken on a matter that severely affects our fellow citizens in Wales. I will ensure that we have an opportunity on Thursday to make individual contributions.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Brif Weinidog Cymru am y datganiad hwnnw, ac i’r holl Aelodau a fu’n siarad am fater a gaiff effaith ddifrifol ar ein cyd-ddinasyddion yng Nghymru. Fe sicrhaf y cawn gyfle ddydd Iau i wneud cyfraniadau unigol.
Datganiad ar Ddarparu Llety ar gyfer Ceiswyr Lloches
Statement on Housing Asylum Seekers
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 39
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
Following my initial response to an emergency question last week on housing asylum seekers in Cardiff prison, I will now make a more detailed statement about this issue. I hope that it will also answer matters and concerns raised by Members previously.
Yn dilyn fy ymateb cychwynnol i gwestiwn brys yr wythnos diwethaf ar gartrefu ceiswyr lloches yng ngharchar Caerdydd, gwnaf ddatganiad manylach ar y mater hwn yn awr. Gobeithiaf y bydd hefyd yn ateb materion a phryderon a fynegwyd yn flaenorol gan Aelodau.
First, I will explain what I understand to be the current position. The Home Office has confirmed that it is in negotiation with Cardiff prison regarding the provision of up to 50 bed spaces to detain immigration offenders and asylum seekers whose applications for asylum have failed prior to their removal from the country. The 50 spaces will be utilised in the prison service’s excess remand spaces. It is not expected that any detainees will be held in Cardiff prison before the middle of February.
Yn gyntaf, fe esboniaf y sefyllfa bresennol, fel y gwelaf hi. Mae’r Swyddfa Gartref wedi cadarnhau ei bod yn negodi gyda Charchar Caerdydd ynghylch darparu hyd at 50 o welyau i gadw troseddwyr mewnfudo a cheiswyr lloches y bu eu ceisiadau am loches yn aflwyddiannus cyn eu cludo o’r wlad. Daw’r 50 o welyau o’r lleoedd gwag o fewn y gwasanaeth carchardai ar gyfer carcharorion sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf. Ni ddisgwylir i unrhyw un gael ei gadw yng ngharchar Caerdydd cyn canol mis Chwefror.
Officials in the immigration service have stated that this should have no effect on over-crowding as only surplus remand facilities identified by the prison service will be used. It confirms that Cardiff prison will be operating within its operational capacity. Discussions are underway between the prison and immigration services to put the detailed arrangements in hand. It has been confirmed that only males, over the age of 21, will be accommodated.
Nododd swyddogion yn y gwasanaeth mewnfudo na ddylai hyn gael unrhyw effaith ar orlenwi gan mai dim ond cyfleusterau gwag ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf ac a nodwyd gan y gwasanaeth carchardai a ddefnyddir. Mae’n cadarnhau y bydd carchar Caerdydd yn gweithredu o fewn ei allu gweithredol. Mae trafodaethau’n cael eu cynnal ar hyn o bryd rhwng y gwasanaethau carchar a mewnfudo er mwyn rhoi’r trefniadau manwl ar waith. Cadarnhawyd mai dim ond dynion, dros 21 oed, a fydd yn aros yno.
This arrangement is not exclusive to asylum seekers, and decisions whether to detain an individual are made on a case by case basis, while no one is detained solely because they have made an application for asylum. The reasons provided by the Home Office for the use of prison remand space is that the Government is determined to increase the number of removals of illegal immigrants and failed asylum applicants from the United Kingdom. Due to the high number of people absconding, the Home Office view is that it is necessary to detain these people while arrangements are made for their deportation.
Nid yw’r trefniant hwn yn unigryw i bob ceisiwr lloches, a gwneir penderfyniadau i gadw unigolyn yn ôl ceisiadau unigol, ac ni chaiff unrhyw un eu cadw dim ond am eu bod wedi gwneud cais am loches. Y rhesymau a roddwyd gan y Swyddfa Gartref dros ddefnyddio lleoedd ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf mewn carchar yw bod y Llywodraeth yn benderfynol o gynyddu’r nifer o fewnfudwyr anghyfreithlon a phobl a fu’n aflwyddiannus gyda’u cais am loches a gludir o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Oherwydd bod nifer fawr o bobl yn dianc, mae’r Swyddfa Gartref o’r farn ei bod yn angenrheidiol cadw’r bobl hyn yn y ddalfa tra gwneir trefniadau i’w halltudio.
The central Government intends this to be a short-term measure, and for the longer term is committed to a strategy of accommodating the majority of immigration detainees in dedicated detention and holding centres. To meet this objective, the Government is expanding the detention estate by 1,800 beds, but unfortunately these holding centres will not be fully available until October this year. It is anticipated that the use of prisons to house detainees for immigration and asylum matters will run for about 12 months until the new detention places come on stream. The UK Government believes that its detention policy and practices meet the requirements of the Human Rights Act 1998, and in particular article 5 (1) (f), which allows detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or with a view to deportation or extradition. This is the explanation that has been provided by officials in Mrs Barbara Roche’s department.
Mae’r Llywodraeth ganolog yn bwriadu i hwn fod yn fesur tymor byr, ac ar gyfer y tymor hwy mae’n ymrwymedig i strategaeth o letya’r mwyafrif o fewnfudwyr a gaiff eu cadw mewn canolfannau cadw penodol. Er mwyn cwrdd â’r amcan hwn, mae’r Llywodraeth yn ehangu’r gallu cadw o 1,800 o welyau, ond yn anffodus ni fydd y canolfannau cadw hyn ar gael yn gyfan gwbl tan fis Hydref eleni. Rhagwelir y defnyddir carchardai i gadw pobl ar gyfer materion mewnfudo a lloches am tua 12 mis nes y bydd y lleoedd cadw newydd ar gael. Mae Llywodraeth y DU o’r farn bod ei pholisi a’i harferion cadw yn bodloni gofynion Deddf Hawliau Dynol 1998, ac yn arbennig erthygl 5 (1) (f), sydd yn caniatáu cadw person er mwyn ei atal rhag cael mynediad anawdurdodedig i’r wlad neu er mwyn ei alltudio neu ei ystraddodi. Dyma yw’r esboniad a ddarparwyd gan swyddogion yn adran Mrs Barbara Roche.
Members asked what support would be available to people detained under this scheme. I have been informed that discussions are still ongoing but it is envisaged that regular surgeries will be undertaken with local immigration officers in Cardiff. The immigration service will assist in obtaining and meeting the cost of interpreters; detainees will have access to the same facilities as unconvicted prisoners; and their custody, care and general management will fall to the prison service. On health care, detainees will be offered a full medical screening within 24 hours of arrival. Where issues relating to mental health are explored as part of that initial assessment, any concerns about the mental wellbeing of a detainee are dealt with by a doctor who will, if necessary, arrange for a full psychiatric examination. Detainees can be referred for specialist treatment, including psychological counselling, in the same way as any NHS patient. Where evidence of post traumatic stress disorder is diagnosed, the immigration service will be alerted and detention will be reviewed in light of the evidence.
Gofynnodd Aelodau pa gefnogaeth a fyddai ar gael i bobl sydd yn cael eu cadw o dan y cynllun hwn. Cefais fy hysbysu bod trafodaethau’n parhau ond rhagwelir y cynhelir cyngorfeydd rheolaidd gyda swyddogion mewnfudo lleol yng Nghaerdydd. Bydd y gwasanaeth mewnfudo yn cynorthwyo o ran trefnu a chwrdd â chostau cyfieithwyr; gall y bobl sydd yn cael eu dal fanteisio ar yr un cyfleusterau â charcharorion sydd heb eu dyfarnu’n euog; a’r gwasanaeth carchardai a fydd yn gyfrifol am eu cadw, eu gofal a’u rheoli’n gyffredinol. O ran gofal iechyd, cynigir proses sgrinio meddygol llawn i bobl sydd yn cael eu cadw o fewn 24 awr iddynt gyrraedd. Pan ymchwilir i faterion sydd yn ymwneud ag iechyd y meddwl fel rhan o’r asesiad cychwynnol hwnnw, bydd meddyg yn delio ag unrhyw bryderon ynghylch cyflwr meddyliol person sydd yn cael ei gadw a bydd yn trefnu archwiliad seiciatryddol llawn os bydd angen. Gellir cyfeirio pobl sydd yn cael eu cadw i driniaeth arbenigol, gan gynnwys cynghori seicolegol, yn yr un modd ag ar gyfer unrhyw glaf NHS. Lle ceir tystiolaeth o anhwylder ôl-straen trawmatig, hysbysir y gwasanaeth mewnfudo ac adolygir y penderfyniad i gadw person yng ngoleuni’r dystiolaeth.
As I have said, I am in the process of writing to Mrs Barbara Roche, the Immigration Minister, expressing the dismay of Members about this proposal and highlighting the particular concerns that Members raised.
Fel y dywedais, yr wyf yn y broses o ysgrifennu llythyr i Mrs Barbara Roche, y Gweinidog Mewnfudo, yn mynegi siom yr Aelodau ynghylch y cynnig hwn ac yn pwysleisio’r pryderon penodol a fynegwyd gan Aelodau.
I would also like to update the Assembly on the negotiations and arrangements between Cardiff City and County Council and the National Asylum Support Service. The latest information that we have is that the contract between Cardiff council and the National Asylum Support Service has still not been signed, although full agreement about the terms and the signing is imminent. Cardiff council is still working towards mid March for the start of dispersal arrangements. The contract does not, however, provide for additional costs of supporting asylum seekers locally, for example, educational and health related costs. Officials are currently in discussions about the likely costs involved, which at present can only be estimated, and further details will be provided to relevant Ministers when available.
Hoffwn hefyd roi’r manylion diweddaraf i’r Cynulliad ar y negodiadau a’r trefniadau rhwng Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd a’r Gwasanaeth Cynnal Cenedlaethol i Geiswyr Lloches. Yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf sydd gennym yw nad yw’r contract rhwng cyngor Caerdydd a’r Gwasanaeth Cynnal Cenedlaethol i Geiswyr Lloches wedi’i lofnodi hyd yma, er bod cytundeb llawn am y termau a’r arwyddo yn yr arfaeth. Mae cyngor Caerdydd yn parhau i weithio tuag at y targed o roi’r trefniadau gwasgaru ar waith erbyn canol mis Mawrth. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r contract yn darparu ar gyfer y costau ychwanegol o gefnogi ceiswyr lloches yn lleol, er enghraifft costau’n ymwneud ag addysg ac iechyd. Mae swyddogion wrthi’n trafod y costau tebygol, er mai dim ond amcangyfrif y gellir ei roi ar hyn o bryd, a darperir manylion pellach i’r Gweinidogion perthnasol pan ddônt i law.
The all-Wales local authority consortium is also presently re-entering negotiations with the National Asylum Support Service and in the next week it should be clearer as to whether the National Asylum Support Service wishes to sign a contract with the consortium. One issue that I have asked officials to investigate further, and to keep a watching brief over, is the use of private accommodation in Wales. Any arrangements that the Assembly makes in terms of supporting local and health authorities will be affected if private accommodation is used in any significant numbers in Wales.
Mae consortiwm awdurdodau lleol Cymru gyfan hefyd yn dechrau ail-gynnal negodiadau gyda’r Gwasanaeth Cynnal Cenedlaethol i Geiswyr Lloches ar hyn o bryd a dylai’r sefyllfa fod yn gliriach o fewn yr wythnos nesaf o ran pa un ai a fydd y Gwasanaeth Cynnal Cenedlaethol i Geiswyr Lloches yn dymuno arwyddo contract gyda’r consortiwm. Un mater y gofynnais i swyddogion ymchwilio ymhellach iddo, ac i gadw golwg arno, yw’r defnydd o lety preifat yng Nghymru. Os defnyddir unrhyw nifer sylweddol o lety preifat yng Nghymru bydd hyn yn sicr o effeithio ar unrhyw drefniadau a wna’r Cynulliad o ran cefnogi awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd.
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council and one of the consortia. Edwina, you referred to the Government in your statement. I presume that you mean the UK Government rather than the Government of Wales. On the specific issue that detainees can expect to receive the same treatment as other unconvicted prisoners in custody, apart from fly-on-the-wall television programmes, I am uncertain as to what that expectation is. Can you give a guarantee, in that the placement relies on surplus remand facilities, that if there is an increase in demand for remand facilities by the prison service that that demand can be met in Wales? I am still deeply unhappy that asylum seekers should be accommodated in Cardiff prison, but if the Home Office is determined that that is to be, that is what will be.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ac un o’r consortia. Edwina, cyfeiriasoch at y Llywodraeth yn eich datganiad. Cymeraf eich bod yn cyfeirio at Lywodraeth y DU yn hytrach na Llywodraeth Cymru. Ar y mater penodol y gall pobl sydd yn cael eu cadw ddisgwyl derbyn yr un driniaeth â charcharorion eraill heb eu dyfarnu’n euog sydd yn cael eu cadw yn y ddalfa, ar wahân i raglenni teledu pryf ar y pared, nid wyf yn siŵr beth yw’r disgwyliad. A allwch roi sicrwydd, o ran bod y lleoliad yn dibynnu ar gyfleusterau gwag ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf, os bydd cynnydd yn y galw am gyfleusterau ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf gan y gwasanaeth carchardai y gellir cwrdd â’r galw hwnnw yng Nghymru? Yr wyf yn parhau i fod yn anhapus iawn y bwriedir rhoi llety i geiswyr lloches yng ngharchar Caerdydd, ond os yw’r Swyddfa Gartref yn benderfynol y bydd hynny’n digwydd, felly y bo.
We need more information as to whether the individuals will be locked up at night in individual cells. Will they be integrated with, or segregated from, the rest of the prison population, be they remand or convicted prisoners? We need to know more about the commitment for supporting individuals with different languages and cultures. The UK Government’s performance, as far as asylum seekers are concerned, has been awful.
Mae arnom angen mwy o wybodaeth ynghylch a gaiff unigolion eu cloi mewn celloedd unigol yn ystod y nos. A gânt eu hintegreiddio gyda, neu eu gwahanu oddi wrth, weddill poblogaeth y carchar, boed y rheini’n garcharorion sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf neu’n rai a ddyfarnwyd yn euog? Mae arnom angen gwybod mwy am yr ymrwymiad i gefnogi unigolion sydd â ieithoedd a diwylliannau gwahanol. Mae perfformiad Llywodraeth y DU, o ran ceiswyr lloches, wedi bod yn drychinebus.
Despite the endeavours of local government in Wales to assist, it seems now that the writing is on the wall. The UK Government must admit soon that providing this service will be expensive, and that all the consortia partners will need more resources to protect the health and education service that we are expected to provide for people in Wales. Therefore, the UK Government needs to be clear that we do not want to discriminate against asylum seekers or the provision of services for them. Nonetheless, there is a cost attached to that provision and we have a duty to provide it.
Er gwaethaf ymdrechion llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru i gynorthwyo, ymddengys erbyn hyn bod yr ysgrifen ar y mur. Rhaid i Lywodraeth y DU gyfaddef yn fuan y bydd darparu’r gwasanaeth hwn yn ddrud, ac y bydd angen mwy o adnoddau ar yr holl bartneriaid consortia i ddiogelu’r gwasanaeth iechyd a’r gwasanaeth addysg y disgwylir inni ei ddarparu i bobl yng Nghymru. Felly, mae angen i Lywodraeth y DU fod yn gwbl ymwybodol nad ydym am wahaniaethu yn erbyn ceiswyr lloches na’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau ar eu cyfer. Serch hynny, mae cost yn gysylltiedig â’r ddarpariaeth honno ac mae dyletswydd arnom i’w darparu.
I will deal with the matter that is solely within my responsibility. Local authorities have raised concerns about education, and health authorities and trusts are concerned about health issues. I indicated in my statement that I am waiting for further information about the number of asylum seekers that could have an impact on these local services. I am in close contact with the Ministers concerned and with local authorities to ensure that the Assembly will do what it can. I am minded of the support of the Assembly and its wish to give assistance in this area. We feel strongly that asylum seekers coming to this country should be treated with dignity whether or not they stay here. That is an issue on which we are all clear.
Dim ond â’r mater sydd o fewn fy nghyfrifoldeb y deliaf. Mae awdurdodau lleol wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch addysg, ac mae awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch materion iechyd. Nodais yn fy natganiad fy mod yn aros am wybodaeth bellach am nifer y ceiswyr lloches a allai effeithio ar y gwasanaethau lleol hyn. Yr wyf yn cadw cysylltiad agos â’r Gweinidogion dan sylw a chyda’r awdurdodau lleol er mwyn sicrhau y bydd y Cynulliad yn gwneud popeth o fewn ei allu. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o gefnogaeth y Cynulliad a’i ddymuniad i gynnig cymorth yn y maes hwn. Teimlwn yn gryf y dylid trin ceiswyr lloches a ddaw i’r wlad hon gydag urddas pa un ai a ydynt yn aros yma ai peidio. Mae hwnnw’n fater yr ydym oll yn glir arno.
The broader issue is not a devolved matter. However, I am engaging with officials to obtain further information about some of the questions you have asked today. It is not a devolved matter, but I have made it clear that I wish to know every detail of the arrangements concerning Cardiff prison. Assembly Members and the people of Wales need a clear explanation of how this matter will be dealt with.
Nid yw’r mater ehangach yn fater sydd wedi’i ddatganoli. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf mewn cysylltiad â swyddogion er mwyn sicrhau gwybodaeth bellach ar rai o’r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd gennych heddiw. Nid yw’n fater datganoledig, ond yr wyf wedi pwysleisio fy mod yn dymuno gwybod pob manylyn am y trefniadau sydd yn ymwneud â charchar Caerdydd. Mae angen esboniad clir ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru ar sut yr ymdrinnir â’r mater hwn.
This raises another issue that I will express my concern about because I agreed with the comments made during the discussion last week. We are referring to asylum seekers who have been denied asylum in this country and are on their way elsewhere. However, they are not criminals, in the sense of burglars, murderers and so on, and this must be taken into account. If the Presiding Officer agrees, I suggest that, when I obtain further information about this, I will update my statement on the intranet for Members.
Mae hyn yn codi mater arall y mynegaf fy mhryder yn ei gylch oherwydd cytunais â’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd yn ystod y drafodaeth yr wythnos ddiwethaf. Cyfeiriwn at geiswyr lloches y gwrthodwyd lloches iddynt yn y wlad hon ac sydd ar eu ffordd i rywle arall. Fodd bynnag, nid ydynt yn droseddwyr, fel lladron, llofruddwyr ac ati, ac mae’n rhaid cadw hyn mewn cof. Os cytuna’r Llywydd, awgrymaf y dylwn ddiweddaru fy natganiad ar y fewnrwyd i’r Aelodau ar ôl i mi dderbyn mwy o wybodaeth am hyn.
I thank the Minister for making the statement, which she volunteered last week. However, I feel that it does not reflect the urgency of the situation, as reflected when the issue was debated last week. As far as I understand your statement, you have not spoken to the Minister concerned and you are only now in the process of writing to her. I must say that this requires more urgency than is indicated by this statement. Although I welcome the update, there are questions that remain unanswered and Pauline Jarman raised some of them. Are these people to be mixed with criminals? That is a serious issue and it would have an effect on the mental welfare of people who have not been charged with a criminal offence, still less convicted of one.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am wneud y datganiad, y gwirfoddolodd i’w wneud yr wythnos diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, ni chredaf fod hyn yn adlewyrchu natur frys y sefyllfa, a adlewyrchwyd pan drafodwyd y mater yr wythnos diwethaf. Fel y deallaf o’ch datganiad, nid ydych wedi siarad â’r Gweinidog dan sylw a dim ond yn awr yr ydych wrthi’n ysgrifennu ati. Mae’n rhaid imi ddweud bod hyn yn gofyn am fwy o frys nag a nodwyd yn y datganiad hwn. Er y croesawaf y diweddariad, mae cwestiynau’n parhau heb eu hateb a chododd Pauline Jarman rai ohonynt. A gaiff y bobl hyn eu cymysgu â throseddwyr? Mae hynny’n fater difrifol a byddai’n cael effaith ar les meddyliol pobl nad ydynt wedi’u cyhuddo o gyflawni trosedd, heb sôn am gael eu collfarnu o drosedd.
I cannot accept that these people should be housed in prisons at all. However, if it is to be the case, we would want reassurance in this Assembly—because it affects devolved issues—that they are separated from the prisoners. We also need reassurances on health care, education, translation facilities and so on. We will only receive those reassurances when you speak to the Minister concerned in Westminster.
Ni allaf dderbyn y dylid cartrefu’r bobl hyn mewn carchardai o gwbl. Fodd bynnag, os mai dyma fydd yn digwydd, byddwn am gael sicrwydd yn y Cynulliad hwn—gan ei fod yn effeithio ar faterion datganoledig—y cânt eu gwahanu oddi wrth y carcharorion. Mae angen sicrwydd arnom hefyd ar faterion gofal iechyd, addysg, cyfleusterau cyfieithu ac ati. Dim ond pan siaradwch â’r Gweinidog dan sylw yn San Steffan y cawn y sicrwydd hwnnw.
As I understand it—I have asked civil servants and inquired in the Library—I do not think that we have a concordat with the Home Office yet. Is that the case? There is one, I think. The Scottish Executive has one but this—
Fel y deallaf—yr wyf wedi gofyn i weision sifil ac wedi gwneud ymholiadau yn y Llyfrgell—ni chredaf fod gennym goncordat gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref eto. A yw hyn yn wir? Credaf fod un. Mae gan Weithrediaeth yr Alban un, ond—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 44
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
It has just been signed.
Mae newydd gael ei lofnodi.
That is what I thought, but the Library said otherwise. To echo what the First Minister said, I thought there was one. If that is the case, why does this sort of thing happen? Why was the Assembly not told and why were you not told earlier as an administration that this was going to happen? It raises serious questions and I come back to the fundamental point that has not been addressed: these people should not be put in prison and if you operated a firmer, quicker policy we would not have these masses of people with nowhere to go. It needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency, which I do not think that you have displayed.
Dyna yr oeddwn yn ei gredu, ond dywedodd y Llyfrgell i’r gwrthwyneb. I ategu’r hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog, yr oeddwn yn credu bod un. Os yw hyn yn wir, pam bod y math yma o beth yn digwydd? Pam na chafodd y Cynulliad ei hysbysu a pham na chawsoch eich hysbysu’n gynharach fel gweinyddiaeth y byddai hyn yn digwydd? Mae’n codi cwestiynau difrifol a hoffwn gyfeirio at y pwynt sylfaenol nas trafodwyd hyd yma: ni ddylid rhoi’r bobl hyn yn y carchar a phe baech yn gweithredu polisi cadarnach a chyflymach ni fyddai gennym y niferoedd hyn o bobl heb unman i fynd. Mae angen ymdrin ag ef ar fyrder, ac nid wyf o’r farn eich bod wedi cyfleu hynny.
I have addressed it as matter or urgency. I answered the question in the Chamber last week. I made the necessary inquiries with officials in correspondence with the appropriate Minister, trying to glean the underlying information. I accept that this is not the first time that this has occurred about consultation. This is far from satisfactory and I have written to indicate how unsatisfactory this is, especially on this issue.
Yr wyf wedi ymdrin ag ef ar fyrder. Atebais y cwestiwn yn y Siambr yr wythnos diwethaf. Gwneuthum yr ymholiadau angenrheidiol â swyddogion a gohebu gyda’r Gweinidog priodol, gan geisio cael gafael ar yr wybodaeth sylfaenol. Derbyniaf nad dyma’r tro cyntaf i hyn ddigwydd o ran ymgynghoriad. Nid yw hyn yn foddhaol o bell ffordd ac yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu i fynegi pa mor anfoddhaol yw hyn, yn arbennig ar y mater hwn.
My understanding is that the concordat has just been signed and I will make inquires rising from the points you have made. The best way forward is for me to collate as much information as possible on these issues, and publish it, on the intranet to update Members. However, I share the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives’ concerns.
Deallaf fod y concordat wedi’i arwyddo yn ddiweddar a gwnaf ymholiadau yn deillio o’r pwyntiau a wnaethoch. Y ffordd orau ymlaen yw i mi gasglu cymaint o wybodaeth â phosibl ar y materion hyn, a’i chyhoeddi, ar y fewnrwyd i ddiweddaru’r Aelodau. Fodd bynnag, rhannaf bryderon Arweinydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru.
I too urge you to speedily express the strong views of this Assembly to Barbara Roche as they were clearly and forcibly expressed last week. There was a clear will in the Assembly to make our views known. We find this prospective use of Cardiff prison wholly unacceptable when people have committed no offences and are not accused of committing offences, and might be appealing against the decisions to turn down their applications for asylum.
Hoffwn innau hefyd eich annog i fynegi safbwyntiau cryf y Cynulliad hwn ar fyrder i Barbara Roche fel y’u mynegwyd yn glir a phendant yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd ewyllys amlwg yn y Cynulliad i’n safbwyntiau gael eu cyfleu. Yr ydym o’r farn bod y bwriad i ddefnyddio carchar Caerdydd yn gwbl annerbyniol pan nad yw pobl wedi cyflawni unrhyw droseddau ac nad ydynt wedi’u cyhuddo o unrhyw drosedd, a allai fod yn apelio yn erbyn y penderfyniadau i wrthod eu cais am loches.
Whether the Human Rights Act 1998 or our international obligations are breached by these proposals is yet to be decided and I await developments on that front with great interest. Do you agree that the Welsh Refugee Council has an important role to play, as more asylum seekers and refugees come to Wales, in providing expertise and empathy enhanced by the experience of its staff, some of whom were refugees themselves? Do you also agree that the Welsh Refugee Council must be given the necessary support and resources to enable it to properly fulfil its vital role?
Ni phenderfynwyd eto a yw’r cynigion hyn yn groes i Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol 1998 neu ein cyfrifoldebau rhyngwladol ac mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr i weld datblygiadau ar y mater hwn. A gytunwch fod gan Gyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru rôl bwysig i’w chwarae, wrth i fwy o geiswyr lloches a ffoaduriaid ddod i Gymru, o ran darparu arbenigedd ac empathi wedi’i ategu gan brofiad ei staff, gyda rhai ohonynt yn gynffoaduriaid eu hunain? A gytunwch hefyd y dylid darparu’r gefnogaeth a’r adnoddau angenrheidiol i Gyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru er mwyn ei alluogi i gyflawni ei rôl hanfodol yn briodol?
I have had the opportunity to meet representatives from the Welsh Refugee Council. I concur with the broad thrust of your comments that it is useful to have an organisation consisting of people who were refugees themselves and who fully understand the problems. The funding of the Welsh Refugee Council is not a matter for me but for the Home Office. However, I will take your points on board.
Cefais y cyfle i gwrdd â chynrychiolwyr o Gyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru. Cytunaf â byrdwn cyffredinol eich sylwadau sef ei bod yn ddefnyddiol cael sefydliad sydd yn cynnwys pobl a fu’n ffoaduriaid eu hunain ac sydd yn deall y problemau’n llwyr. Nid mater i mi yw’r mater o ariannu Cyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru ond yn hytrach mater i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ystyried eich pwyntiau.
I also welcome your statement, Edwina, in particular the fact that you are writing to Barbara Roche on this issue. It is important that the Assembly’s message is conveyed in the strongest possible terms that putting asylum seekers in prison is unsavoury.
Yr wyf innau hefyd yn croesawu eich datganiad Edwina, yn arbennig y ffaith eich bod yn ysgrifennu at Barbara Roche ar y mater hwn. Mae’n bwysig y caiff neges y Cynulliad ei chyfleu mor gryf â phosibl sef bod rhoi ceiswyr lloches mewn carchar yn annymunol.
The prison is in the constituency of my colleague, Jenny Randerson, and as the local Member, she has concerns, as do I—which were expressed earlier—about individuals mixing with ordinary remand prisoners. There is also a concern about the role of Cardiff prison as a local prison and the impact asylum seekers will have on that role. If remand places are being taken up by asylum seekers, we may be put in a situation where remand prisoners are sent away to other prisons. That would lead to an additional penalty for remand prisoners’ families. I would be grateful if that point could be raised with Barbara Roche.
Mae’r carchar yn etholaeth fy nghyd-Aelod, Jenny Randerson, ac fel yr Aelod lleol, mae ganddi bryderon, fel sydd gennyf fi—a fynegais yn gynharach—ynghylch unigolion yn cymysgu â charcharorion cyffredin sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf. Mae pryder hefyd ynghylch rôl carchar Caerdydd fel carchar lleol a’r effaith a gaiff ceiswyr lloches ar y rôl honno. Os bydd ceiswyr lloches yn cymryd y lleoedd ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf, gallem fod mewn sefyllfa lle y caiff carcharorion sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf eu hanfon i garchardai eraill. Byddai hynny’n arwain at gosb ychwanegol i deuluoedd y carcharorion hynny. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gellid codi’r pwynt hwnnw gyda Barbara Roche.
I also welcome the recognition at the end of your statement of the difficulties regarding the use of private accommodation. I know that many local councils are concerned about how this will work out in terms of the arrangements that they have in place, and the additional cost for them as a result of private accommodation being used outside of their control. I look forward to further statements once the information becomes available.
Croesawaf hefyd y gydnabyddiaeth ar ddiwedd eich datganiad o anawsterau defnyddio llety preifat. Gwn fod nifer o gynghorau lleol yn pryderu am sut y bydd hyn yn gweithio yn nhermau’r trefniadau sydd ganddynt a’r gwaith, a’r gost ychwanegol iddynt a ddaw yn sgîl defnyddio llety preifat y tu hwnt i’w rheolaeth. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddatganiadau pellach pan fydd yr wybodaeth hon ar gael.
It has come across clearly from the Chamber that what will happen to remand prisoners is an issue, and I will take it up. I am also concerned about what will happen to asylum seekers. Will they be mixed in with remand prisoners? What arrangements will be made? It is crucial that we obtain clarity on this before these proposals go ahead. These proposals, as Pauline Jarman recognises, will go ahead. That is the will of the Home Office. It is not a devolved matter, but it is our duty to ensure that the necessary checks and balances are within the system as we make the appropriate representations as an Assembly to see if we can influence that aspect of Government policy.
Mynegwyd yn glir yn y Siambr bod yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd i garcharorion sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf yn fater a byddaf yn mynd ar ei drywydd. Yr wyf hefyd yn pryderu am yr hyn fydd yn digwydd i geiswyr lloches. A gânt eu cymysgu â charcharorion sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf? Pa drefniadau a wneir? Mae’n holl bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau eglurder ar hyn cyn i’r cynigion hyn fynd yn eu blaenau. Bydd y cynigion hyn, fel y cydnabu Pauline Jarman, yn mynd yn eu blaenau. Dyna ddymuniad y Swyddfa Gartref. Nid yw’n fater datganoledig, ond mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i sicrhau bod y gwiriadau a’r cydbwysedd angenrheidiol yn bodoli o fewn y systemau wrth inni wneud y sylwadau priodol fel Cynulliad i weld a allwn ddylanwadu ar yr agwedd hon ar bolisi’r Llywodraeth.
Last night I was in the Princess Royal Theatre in Port Talbot where the comprehensive schools of Neath Port Talbot put on an excellent memorial presentation about the Holocaust. Having been at that presentation last night, and being here today to hear Edwina’s statement, I feel a great sense of unease about this issue. One of the most relevant points of last night’s presentation was the young people’s message that what happened during the Holocaust and subsequently must never happen again in Europe. We may forget about this within weeks when this may slip from being a headline issue. Could we have a mechanism in place so that we continually return to this issue in the Assembly until other, more satisfactory, arrangements are made for the people who will be detained in Cardiff prison? It is relevant. We have a direct interest in this even if it is a Home Office affair, because even on the strength of the Minister’s statement, issues such as medical care, psychological wellbeing and so forth will be delivered by services for which the Assembly is responsible. We can make a legitimate demand to the Home Office that it keeps us continually informed of developments so that we can keep a watching brief on this worrying situation.
Yr oeddwn yn Theatr y Princess Royal ym Mhort Talbot neithiwr lle y rhoddodd ysgolion cyfun Castell Nedd Port Talbot gyflwyniad gwych i goffáu’r Holocost. Ar ôl bod yn y cyflwyniad hwnnw neithiwr, a bod yma heddiw i glywed datganiad Edwina, teimlaf yn anesmwyth iawn am y mater hwn. Un o’r pwyntiau mwyaf perthnasol a wnaethpwyd yng nghyflwyniad neithiwr oedd neges y bobl ifanc na ddylai’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod yr Holocost ac yn dilyn hynny byth ddigwydd eto yn Ewrop. Efallai yr anghofiwn am hyn ymhen wythnosau pan fydd hyn o bosibl wedi cilio o’r penawdau. A allem ni sicrhau bod gweithdrefn ar waith er mwyn inni ddychwelyd at y mater hwn yn y Cynulliad yn barhaus nes y gwneir trefniadau eraill, mwy boddhaol ar gyfer y bobl a gaiff eu cadw yng ngharchar Caerdydd? Mae’n berthnasol. Mae gennym ddiddordeb uniongyrchol yn hyn hyd yn oed os mai mater i’r Swyddfa Gartref ydyw, oherwydd hyd yn oed ar sail datganiad y Gweinidog, caiff materion fel gofal meddygol, lles seicolegol ac ati eu darparu gan wasanaethau y mae’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Gallwn wneud cais dilys i’r Swyddfa Gartref roi’r newyddion diweddaraf inni’n rheolaidd am ddatblygiadau er mwyn inni allu cadw golwg ar y sefyllfa bryderus hon.
I agree with Brian that we have a legitimate interest in this area. With the agreement of the Minister for Assembly Business and the Presiding Officer, I will regularly update the Assembly, either via the Assembly’s intranet or by making a statement in the Chamber on which I can be questioned. Issues surrounding the Holocaust are not only confined to Europe. We only have to consider what has happened in recent years across the world in places like Africa and Asia. We must look at the growing problems related to the Palestinian issue. We need to recognise that asylum seekers come from across the globe. Through history we learn about our future. We need to learn the most appropriate lessons.
Cytunaf â Brian bod gennym ddiddordeb dilys yn y maes hwn. Gyda chytundeb y Trefnydd a’r Llywydd, rhoddaf y manylion diweddaraf i’r Cynulliad yn rheolaidd, naill ai drwy fewnrwyd y Cynulliad neu drwy wneud datganiad yn y Siambr y gellir holi cwestiynau i mi yn ei gylch. Nid yw materion sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r Holocost wedi’u cyfyngu i Ewrop. Nid oes ond rhaid inni ystyried yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf ar draws y byd mewn lleoedd fel Affrica ac Asia. Rhaid inni edrych ar broblemau cynyddol sydd yn gysylltiedig â Phalesteina. Mae angen inni gydnabod y daw ceiswyr lloches o bob cwr o’r byd. Drwy hanes dysgwn am ein dyfodol. Mae angen inni ddysgu’r gwersi mwyaf priodol.
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Once again, we have seen a Minister put in a difficult and invidious position—a virtual hostage to fortune—because of decisions made in Whitehall that are not reflective of the views of the people of Wales, who would not want to see asylum seekers treated in this way. They may be illegal immigrants or have had their applications turned down, but on humanitarian grounds it cannot be right to incarcerate these people in a Victorian prison, which is what is happening, particularly as this prison is overcrowded. I heard what the Minister said. I appreciate her compassion and humanitarian approach, which I greatly respect. I am grateful to her for her comments this afternoon, because her actions on this issue are in the interests of this Assembly and the people of Wales.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar o gael y cyfle i gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Unwaith eto, gwelwn Weinidog yn cael ei rhoi mewn sefyllfa anodd ac annheg—carcharor i ffawd bron—oherwydd penderfyniadau a wnaethpwyd yn Whitehall nad ydynt yn adlewyrchu safbwyntiau pobl Cymru, na fyddent am weld ceiswyr lloches yn cael eu trin yn y fath fodd. Efallai eu bod yn fewnfudwyr anghyfreithlon neu y gwrthodwyd eu ceisiadau, ond ar sail ddyngarol ni all fod yn briodol carcharu’r bobl hyn mewn carchar o Oes Fictoria, sef yr hyn sydd yn digwydd, yn arbennig gan fod y carchar yn orlawn. Clywais yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog. Gwerthfawrogaf a pharchaf ei thrugaredd a’i hymagwedd dyngarol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddi am ei sylwadau y prynhawn yma, oherwydd mae’r camau y bydd yn eu cymryd ar y mater hwn o fudd i’r Cynulliad hwn ac i bobl Cymru.
I cannot understand how appropriate accommodation cannot be found somewhere in the UK, bearing in mind the number of establishments that have closed over past years in various fields, to be able to house these people until they are repatriated or whatever else is appropriate. It is unnecessary and inappropriate to use Cardiff prison for this purpose. Although the remand regime is lighter than the prison regime, it still does not make it right. It is right that we are able to express the views of the people of Wales through this statement. We do not need to play politics with it. The Minister has acted appropriately and quickly on this since last Thursday. I compliment her on this. I support my colleagues in saying that I sincerely hope that there will be a watching brief kept on this, because we are talking about human beings. It is too easy for people to shut them away and forget about them. We will not allow that to happen in the Assembly. I thank the Minister for her actions.
Ni allaf ddeall pam na ellir dod o hyd i lety priodol rhywle arall yn y DU, o ystyried nifer y sefydliadau sydd wedi cau yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf mewn amrywiol feysydd, i gartrefu’r bobl hyn nes y cânt eu dychwelyd i’w gwledydd eu hunain neu beth bynnag arall sydd yn briodol. Mae’n ddiangen ac yn amhriodol defnyddio carchar Caerdydd i’r perwyl hwn. Er bod y system ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn aros i sefyll eu prawf yn ysgafnach na’r system carchar, nid yw hyn o reidrwydd yn golygu ei fod yn iawn. Mae’n briodol y gallwn fynegi barn pobl Cymru drwy’r datganiad hwn. Nid oes angen bod yn wleidyddol am hyn. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi gweithredu’n briodol a chyflym ar y mater hwn ers dydd Iau diwethaf. Hoffwn ei llongyfarch ar hyn. Cefnogaf fy nghyd-Aelodau drwy ddweud fy mod yn awyddus iawn y cedwir golwg ar hyn, oherwydd yr ydym yn trafod bodau dynol. Mae’n rhy hawdd i bobl eu rhoi dan glo ac anghofio amdanynt. Ni chaniatawn i hynny ddigwydd yn y Cynulliad. Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am y camau a gymerodd.
I thank Peter for those comments. There has been a general consensus across the Assembly about our concerns once again today. That strengthens my position as a Minister in my dealings with the Home Office, on an issue that we regard as being important in Wales. It might have passed unnoticed in some areas of the press, but not in the Welsh media or by the people of Wales.
Diolchaf i Peter am y sylwadau hynny. Cafwyd cytundeb cyffredinol ar draws y Cynulliad ynghylch ein pryderon unwaith eto heddiw. Mae hynny’n atgyfnerthu fy sefyllfa fel Gweinidog wrth ddelio â’r Swyddfa Gartref, ar fater yr ystyriwn yn un pwysig yng Nghymru. Gallai fod wedi mynd heibio’n ddisylw mewn rhai rhannau o’r wasg, ond nid yng nghyfryngau Cymru ac nid gan bobl Cymru.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Thank you, Minister, for your willingness to make statements to the Assembly on this and other matters.
Diolch, Weinidog, am eich parodrwydd i wneud datganiadau i’r Cynulliad ar y mater hwn a materion eraill.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.8. Will you allow a Cabinet statement on a document not yet published, or do Cabinet statements on strategic documents require that the said documents are available to Assembly Members? I understand that Jane Hutt will make a statement on Thursday on the NHS strategy for Wales, but intends to publish the strategy on Friday. Is not such an incongruent approach a discourtesy to the Assembly?
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.8. A wnewch chi ganiatáu datganiad Cabinet ar ddogfen nas cyhoeddwyd eto, neu a yw datganiadau Cabinet ar ddogfennau strategol yn gofyn i’r dogfennau dan sylw fod ar gael i Aelodau’r Cynulliad? Deallaf y bydd Jane Hutt yn gwneud datganiad ddydd Iau ar strategaeth yr NHS i Gymru, ond yn bwriadu cyhoeddi’r strategaeth ddydd Gwener. Onid yw ymagwedd anghyson o’r fath yn anghwrtais i’r Cynulliad?
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 49
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
David raised this point in the Business Committee. I thank him for that and for notifying me beforehand of his intention to do so. There is no intention to be discourteous to the Assembly. As an administration we believe in the principle and practice of transparency. Jane Hutt’s statement to Plenary on Thursday on ‘Improving Health in Wales—A Plan for the NHS with its Partners’, will be made on behalf of the Executive. In the preface to the document, the First Minister makes it clear that this is a partnership document based on the partnership Government. Following the statement, the document will be made available to Members on the intranet. It will be of particular interest to members of the Health and Social Services Committee who will be discussing it next week. It will then be debated in Plenary in a fortnight’s time. We want to make the document available to Assembly Members. However, I sometimes feel that we cannot win. You have made the point on many occasions, Presiding Officer, that statements should be made to the Assembly, not outside, and we believe that we are complying fully with that.
Cododd David y pwynt hwn yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Diolchaf iddo am hynny ac am fy hysbysu ymlaen llaw o’i fwriad i wneud hynny. Nid oes unrhyw fwriad i fod yn anghwrtais i’r Cynulliad. Fel gweinyddiaeth, credwn yn yr egwyddor a’r arfer o eglurder. Gwneir datganiad Jane Hutt i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Iau ar ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru—Cynllun i’r NHS a’i Bartneriaid’, ar ran y Weithrediaeth. Yn y rhagair i’r ddogfen, eglura’r Prif Weinidog bod y ddogfen hon yn ddogfen bartneriaeth yn seiliedig ar y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth. Yn dilyn y datganiad, bydd y ddogfen ar gael i Aelodau ar y fewnrwyd. Bydd o ddiddordeb arbennig i aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a fydd yn ei thrafod yr wythnos nesaf. Yna caiff ei thrafod yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ymhen pythefnos. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod y ddogfen ar gael i Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, teimlaf weithiau na allwn ennill. Yr ydych wedi pwysleisio ar sawl achlysur, Lywydd, y dylid gwneud datganiadau i’r Cynulliad, nid y tu allan iddo, a chredwn ein bod yn cydymffurfio’n llawn â hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 50
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I am grateful to David Melding, and to the Minister for Assembly Business for indicating the Executive’s position on this. I have some sympathy with David Melding’s point, in that Members will be better informed to ask questions on any statement if they have all the information to hand. On the other hand, I appreciate the administration’s willingness and promise to hold a debate on this matter in the near future. I believe that honour has been satisfied on this issue. However, in future, I would request that, wherever possible, documents be made available to the Assembly at the earliest possible opportunity to facilitate the opportunity for Members to always be fully informed when they ask questions on statements.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i David Melding, ac i’r Trefnydd am esbonio sefyllfa’r Weithrediaeth ar y mater hwn. Cydymdeimlaf i raddau â phwynt David Melding, yn yr ystyr y byddai Aelodau mewn sefyllfa well i holi cwestiynau am unrhyw ddatganiad os yw’r holl wybodaeth wrth law ganddynt. Ar y llaw arall, gwerthfawrogaf barodrwydd ac addewid y weinyddiaeth i gynnal trafodaeth ar y mater hwn yn y dyfodol agos. Credaf yr ymdriniwyd â’r mater gydag anrhydedd. Fodd bynnag, yn y dyfodol, gofynnaf, lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl, i ddogfennau gael eu cyflwyno i’r Cynulliad cyn gynted â phosibl er mwyn hwyluso’r cyfle i Aelodau fod yn hollol hyddysg ar y mater pan ofynnant gwestiynau ar ddatganiadau.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 50
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I will first refer to Plenary business for this week. If Corus steel company makes its anticipated statement tomorrow, Thursday’s business may need to be rescheduled to accommodate an urgent debate on the steel industry in Wales. I discussed this possibility with colleagues and the Business Committee this morning and I am grateful for their positive responses. If this eventuality is realised, I will need more detailed discussions with them about business on Thursday and during the following weeks.
Cyfeiriaf yn gyntaf at fusnes y Cyfarfod Llawn ar gyfer yr wythnos hon. Os bydd cwmni dur Corus yn gwneud ei ddatganiad disgwyliedig yfory, efallai y bydd angen ad-drefnu busnes dydd Iau er mwyn caniatáu trafodaeth frys ar y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru. Trafodais y posibilrwydd hwn gyda chyd-Aelodau a’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddynt am eu hymatebion positif. Os gwireddir hyn, bydd angen imi gynnal trafodaethau manylach gyda hwy am fusnes dydd Iau ac yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.
It is with that proviso that I make the business statement for the next three weeks. On Tuesday 6 February, business will include a debate on the local government settlement in accordance with Standing Order No. 19.9, and the motion to approve the Feeding Stuffs (Wales) Regulations 2001. Business on Thursday 8 February and Thursday 13 February is as I reported last week, subject to the above proviso. Business on Thursday 15 February will include a debate proposed by Plaid Cymru on the sustainable development action plan, and a motion to approve the Tir Mynydd (Wales) Regulations 2001. Business on Tuesday 27 February will include motions to approve the Road Safety and the Bus Subsidy Special Grant Reports, a debate on the basic skills strategy and a debate on the Queen’s Speech. The Business Committee has yet to agree on business for Thursday 1 March to mark St David’s Day but, as the First Minister indicated earlier, Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, will make an official visit to the Assembly on that day.
Ar yr amod hwnnw y gwnaf y datganiad busnes am y tair wythnos nesaf. Ddydd Iau 6 Chwefror, bydd busnes yn cynnwys dadl ar y setliad llywodraeth leol yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19.9, a’r cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau Deunyddiau Bwydo (Cymru) 2001. Mae busnes ar gyfer dydd Iau 8 Chwefror a dydd Iau 13 Chwefror fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf, yn amodol ar yr amod uchod. Bydd busnes dydd Iau 15 Chwefror yn cynnwys dadl ar y cynllun gweithredu datblygu cynaliadwy a’r cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau Tir Mynydd (Cymru) 2001. Bydd busnes dydd Iau 27 Chwefror yn cynnwys cynigion i gymeradwyo Adroddiad Diogelwch y Ffyrdd ac Adroddiadau Grant Arbennig Cymhorthdal Bysiau, dadl ar y strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol a dadl ar Araith y Frenhines. Nid yw’r Pwyllgor Busnes wedi cytuno hyd yma ar y busnes ar gyfer dydd Iau 1 Mawrth i ddathlu Dydd Gŵyl Ddewi ond, fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach, bydd Bertie Ahern, y Taoiseach, ar ymweliad swyddogol â’r Cynulliad ar y diwrnod hwnnw.
On the advice of the Business Committee this morning, the Presiding Officer has determined, in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.5 that the following items of subordinate legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee. These are the Education (Pupil Records) (Wales) Regulations 2001 and the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (Electronic Communications) (Wales) Order 2001. As in previous weeks, I will post a copy of this statement to the intranet and the internet later today.
Ar gyngor y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, mae’r Llywydd wedi penderfynu, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitemau canlynol o is-ddeddfwriaethau i Bwyllgor Pwnc. Ymhlith y rhain mae Rheoliadau Addysg (Cofnodion Disgyblion) (Cymru) 2001 a Deddf Llywodraeth Leol a Thai 1989 (Cysylltiadau Electronig) (Cymru) 2001. Fel y digwyddodd yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf, byddaf yn rhoi copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 51
A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i’r datganiad busnes?
Are there any objections to the business statement?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
I am required under Standing Order No. 5.4 to ask whether there are 10 objections? I see that there are not. As there are not 10 Members supporting the objection I will now call one Assembly Member from each party group to speak briefly on the business statement.
Rhaid imi ofyn, o dan Reol Sefydlog 5.4 a oes 10 gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Gan nad oes 10 Aelod yn cefnogi’r gwrthwynebiad galwaf yn awr ar un Aelod o’r Cynulliad o bob plaid wleidyddol i siarad yn fyr ar y datganiad busnes.
The business statement noted that on 8 February the Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Economic Development will make a statement on the national economic development strategy. The Economic Development Committee had an opportunity to examine an early draft of the strategy about two weeks ago. The Committee rejected it almost unanimously as it was fundamentally flawed. During the Plenary session today I have received the latest draft of the document, to be discussed at tomorrow’s Economic Development Committee. However, it has already been sent to the printers and the typesetters as it is the final draft. Therefore, I am concerned that the Deputy First Minister, who has had difficulty in handling the national economic development strategy issue in the Committee, is seeking to sideline the views of the National Assembly by making a statement rather than holding a debate in which we could vote on it.
Nodwyd yn y datganiad busnes y byddai Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn gwneud datganiad ar y strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol ar 8 Chwefror. Cafodd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd gyfle i archwilio drafft cynnar o’r strategaeth tua phythefnos yn ôl. Gwrthododd y Pwyllgor y ddogfen yn unfrydol bron am fod gwendidau sylfaenol ynddi. Yn ystod y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw, yr wyf wedi derbyn copi drafft diweddaraf y ddogfen, i’w thrafod yn y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yfory. Fodd bynnag, mae eisoes wedi’i hanfon at yr argraffwyr a’r cysodwyr gan mai hwn yw’r copi drafft terfynol. Felly, yr wyf yn pryderu bod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, sydd wedi profi anhawster wrth ddelio â’r mater strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol yn y Pwyllgor, yn ceisio anwybyddu safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol drwy wneud datganiad yn hytrach na chynnal dadl y gallem bleidleisio arni.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
The Party of Wales does not wish to comment on the business statement and no other party wishes to comment. In that case, the Minister may reply.
Nid yw Plaid Cymru yn dymuno gwneud sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes ac nid oes yr un blaid arall yn dymuno gwneud sylwadau. Felly, gall y Gweinidog ateb.
Alun answered his own question, in a way, when he said that the Economic Development Committee would discuss this tomorrow. Members of that Committee will have the opportunity to discuss the national economic development strategy document. If you do not agree with the business statement you can, of course, vote against it.
Atebodd Alun ei gwestiwn ei hun, mewn ffordd, pan ddywedodd y byddai’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yn trafod hyn yfory. Caiff aelodau’r Pwyllgor hwnnw gyfle i drafod y ddogfen strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol. Os na chytunwch â’r datganiad busnes gallwch, wrth gwrs, bleidleisio yn ei erbyn.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. As we know, the Alder Hey report will be released shortly. Members of my constituency are traumatised in a way that most of us cannot imagine. Will Jane Hutt make a statement on this and consider whether there is anything that the Assembly can do to offer aftercare to the people affected, to help in this dreadful situation?
Pwynt o drefn. Fel y gwyddom, cyhoeddir adroddiad Alder Hey yn y man. Mae aelodau o’m hetholaeth wedi’u trawmateiddio mewn ffordd na all y rhan fwyaf ohonom ei ddychmygu. A wnaiff Jane Hutt ddatganiad ar hyn ac ystyried a oes unrhyw beth y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud i gynnig ôl-ofal i’r bobl hynny yr effeithiwyd arnynt, er mwyn cynorthwyo yn y sefyllfa druenus hon?
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 53
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
I will be happy to respond later this afternoon, if that is convenient.
Byddaf yn fwy na pharod i ymateb yn ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma, os bydd hynny’n gyfleus.
Point of order. A few times today, you have made reference to ‘The Party of Wales’. I am not aware of any party that is registered as ‘The Party of Wales’. I would be grateful if you would clarify the full name of the party to which you refer.
Pwynt o drefn. Yr ydych wedi cyfeirio at ‘The Party of Wales’ sawl gwaith heddiw. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw blaid sydd wedi’i chofrestru fel ‘The Party of Wales’. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn nodi enw llawn y blaid yr ydych yn cyfeirio ati.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
My understanding is that under the Registration of Political Parties Act 1998, there is a party with such a bilingual registration. I believe that all parties are registered bilingually under that legislation. I will take advice on that.
Fy nealltwriaeth i yw, o dan Ddeddf Cofrestru Pleidiau Gwleidyddol 1998, bod plaid sydd wedi’i chofrestru’n ddwyieithog yn y fath fodd. Credaf fod pob plaid wedi’i chofrestru’n ddwyieithog o dan y ddeddfwriaeth honno. Ceisiaf gyngor ar hynny.
Cymeradwyo’r Datganiad Busnes Tri Mis
Approval of the Three-month Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 53
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
As no one wishes to debate this motion we will move on to the vote.
Am nad oes unrhyw un yn awyddus i ddadlau’r cynnig hwn awn ymlaen i’r bleidlais.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 37 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 9
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (37)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
Datganiad gan y Llywydd
Statement by the Presiding Officer
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 54
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 54
Cyn symud ymlaen i’r ddadl ar ddatblygiad proffesiynol athrawon, atgoffaf Aelodau o’r drefniadaeth o ddatgan buddiant gan ei bod yn bosibl y bydd nifer o Aelodau yn gwneud hynny yn ystod y ddadl. Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at y cyfarwyddyd ar y fewnrwyd ynglŷn â datgan buddiant a phleidleisio. Gwelwch y dylai Aelodau ddatgan buddiant perthnasol cyn iddynt siarad mewn dadl. Os nad yw Aelodau’n bwriadu siarad, nid oes angen iddynt ddatgan buddiant cyn pleidleisio, fel sydd wedi digwydd weithiau. Os yw Aelodau o’r farn y byddai mantais ariannol uniongyrchol yn deillio o’u penderfyniad neu y byddai’n effeithio ar bobl eraill, ni ddylent bleidleisio. Ymdrinnir â hyn yn y cyfarwyddyd ynglŷn â phleidleisio a chofrestru buddiannau.
Before moving on to the debate on the professional development of teachers, I remind Members of the procedure for declaring an interest as several Members may do so during the debate. I refer you to the guidance on the intranet as regards the declaration of interests and voting. You will see that Members should declare a relevant interest before they speak in a debate. If Members do not intend to speak, they need not declare an interest before they vote, as has happened on a few occasions. If Members are of the view that a direct financial advantage would accrue to them from their decision or that others might be affected by their decision, they should not vote. This is dealt with in the guidance on voting and registration of interests.
Datblygiad Proffesiynol Athrawon
The Professional Development of Teachers
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 54
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I have selected amendments 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendment 3 in the name of William Graham.
Yr wyf wedi dewis gwelliannau 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 a 7 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 3 yn enw William Graham.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 55
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 55
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
I am delighted to have this opportunity to discuss teachers and their professional development, not least so I can pay tribute to the dedicated work of teachers in Wales. The Assembly should be proud of its commitment to improving education. Teachers are in the frontline of delivering those improvements. In recognition of teachers’ impressive professional commitment and expertise in raising standards, I support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 7. Improving standards means growth in many ways. We have made a good start in setting up a sound framework for the professional development of our teachers.
Mae’n dda gennyf gael y cyfle hwn i drafod athrawon a’u datblygiad proffesiynol, yn bennaf er mwyn imi allu talu teyrnged i waith ymroddedig athrawon Cymru. Dylai’r Cynulliad ymfalchïo yn ei ymrwymiad i wella addysg. Mae athrawon yn y rheng flaen o ran cyflwyno’r gwelliannau hyn. Er mwyn cydnabod ymrwymiad proffesiynol ac arbenigedd sylweddol athrawon wrth godi safonau, cefnogaf welliant 7 Jocelyn Davies. Mae gwella safonau yn golygu twf mewn sawl ffordd. Yr ydym wedi dechrau’n dda wrth sefydlu fframwaith cadarn ar gyfer datblygiad proffesiynol ein hathrawon.
Devolution means continued comparisons with initiatives elsewhere, particularly in England. However, I assure Members that when we look at policy development in Wales, we are looking to develop the best. In doing so, we keep in touch with all UK countries and I am pleased that our strategy in ‘Betterwales.com’ identifies our own cohesive approach to professional development. It has taken time to develop our distinctive framework, but the components will fit together effectively in 2001.
Golyga datganoli y caiff mentrau eu cymharu o hyd â mentrau mewn mannau eraill, yn enwedig yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, sicrhaf yr Aelodau, wrth inni edrych at ddatblygu polisïau yng Nghymru, ein bod yn anelu at ddatblygu’r polisïau gorau. Wrth wneud hyn, cadwn mewn cysylltiad â phob gwlad yn y DU ac mae’n dda gennyf fod ein strategaeth yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn nodi ein hymagwedd gydlynus tuag at ddatblygiad proffesiynol. Cymerodd amser i ddatblygu ein fframwaith arbennig ni, ond bydd y cydrannau’n cydblethu’n effeithiol yn 2001.
In the first half of 2001 we will issue three consultation documents to take forward the professional development of teachers. The first, to be issued next month, concerns the induction and early professional development of newly qualified teachers. The second will cover performance management of all teachers. The third will ask whether we need an accelerated development scheme for teachers and, if so, how it should be introduced. Also in 2001, we will put in place the final component for our comprehensive development programme for headteachers. We will continue to work closely with teachers and their representatives in introducing our proposals.
Yn rhan gyntaf 2001, byddwn yn cyhoeddi tair dogfen ymgynghorol a fydd yn datblygu datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon. Bydd y ddogfen gyntaf, i’w chyhoeddi y mis nesaf, yn ymwneud â sefydlu a datblygiad proffesiynol cynnar athrawon newydd gymhwyso. Bydd yr ail yn cwmpasu rheoli perfformiad pob athro. Bydd y drydedd yn gofyn a fydd angen inni gael cynllun datblygiad carlam i athrawon ac, os felly, sut y dylid ei gyflwyno.Hefyd yn 2001, byddwn yn rhoi cydran olaf ein rhaglen datblygiad gynhwysfawr i benaethiaid ar waith. Byddwn yn parhau i weithio’n agos ag athrawon a’u cynrychiolwyr wrth gyflwyno ein cynigion.
I turn to the amendments. Amendment 1 refers to a serious problem in teacher recruitment and the refusal to award salaries to graduate primary school teacher trainees. The fact is that we do not have general teacher shortages. We have an audit once a year. The latest results were published in October 2000. Among the 27,000 teacher posts in Wales, there were 42 vacancies in the secondary sector, 26 vacancies in the primary sector and 10 local authorities recorded no vacancies at all. We cannot be complacent about teacher recruitment. It has never been easy to recruit teachers in a buoyant economy and labour market. There have been particular difficulties in certain subjects and schools. Hence our focused recruitment grants. Enquiries about entering teaching have increased by about 10 per cent this year and we expect good progress on meeting our intake targets for 2001-02.
Trof at y gwelliannau. Cyfeiria gwelliant 1 at broblem ddifrifol o ran recriwtio athrawon a’r penderfyniad i wrthod rhoi cyflogau i raddedigion sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgolion cynradd. Y gwir amdani yw nad oes gennym brinder athrawon yn gyffredinol. Cawn archwiliad unwaith y flwyddyn. Cyhoeddwyd y canlyniadau diweddaraf ym mis Hydref 2000. Ymhlith y 27,000 o swyddi athrawon yng Nghymru, yr oedd 42 o swyddi gwag yn y sector uwchradd, 26 o swyddi gwag yn y sector cynradd a chofnododd 10 awdurdod lleol nad oes unrhyw swyddi gwag ganddynt. Ni allwn fod yn hunanfodlon ynglŷn â recriwtio athrawon. Ni fu’n hawdd erioed recriwtio athrawon mewn economi a marchnad lafur sydd yn ffynnu. Bu anawsterau arbennig mewn pynciau ac ysgolion penodol. Dyna’r rheswm dros ein grantiau recriwtio wedi eu ffocysu. Cynyddodd ymholiadau am fod yn athrawon 10 y cant eleni a disgwyliwn wneud cynnydd da o ran cyrraedd ein targedau derbyn ar gyfer 2001-02.
In line with the partnership agreement, we have announced the introduction of postgraduate teacher training grants at primary level from September this year. The commitment has been met. We have also introduced similar training grants in the further education sector from September this year to ensure that we have parity across all sectors. However, we have not backdated these to September last year when different circumstances applied. We are aware of the concerns of the individuals who are affected by that decision, but last year was a pilot year and we agreed to look at the outcomes.
Yn unol â’r cytundeb partneriaeth, cyhoeddasom gyflwyno grantiau hyfforddi athrawon ysgol gynradd i ôl-raddedigion o Fedi eleni. Cyflawnwyd yr ymrwymiad hwn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi cyflwyno grantiau hyfforddiant cyffelyb yn y sector addysg bellach o Fedi eleni er mwyn sicrhau tegwch ar draws pob sector. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym wedi ôl-ddyddio’r rhain i fis Medi y llynedd pan oedd amgylchiadau gwahanol yn bodoli. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o bryderon yr unigolion yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y penderfyniad hwnnw, ond blwyddyn beilot oedd y llynedd a chytunasom i ystyried y canlyniadau.
Amendment 3 refers to a framework for performance related pay. This is a Department for Education and Employment responsibility. William is being selective in his quotation when he mentions failing to deliver on a pledge in Putting Wales First. The commitment is put firmly in the context of trying to influence the UK Government. The commitment begins
Cyfeiria gwelliant 3 at fframwaith ar gyfer tâl ar sail perfformiad. Yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth sydd yn gyfrifol am hyn. Mae William yn ddethol yn ei ddyfyniad pan sonia am fethu â chyflawni un o addewidion Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf. Rhoddir yr ymrwymiad yn gadarn yn ei gyd-destun o geisio dylanwadu ar Lywodraeth y DU. Dechreua’r ymrwymiad
‘Working with the UK Government, we will seek to improve teachers’ pay and conditions in order to attract and retain good teachers in the profession.’
‘Gan weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU, byddwn yn ceisio gwella cyflog ac amodau athrawon er mwyn denu a chadw athrawon da yn y proffesiwn.’
We are doing that. William also fails to recognise significant improvements to the threshold process, for example, feedback to unsuccessful applicants and a right of appeal that came through the school teachers’ review body’s welcome review.
Yr ydym yn gwneud hynny. Mae William hefyd yn methu â chydnabod y gwelliannau sylweddol i’r broses drothwy, er enghraifft, rhoi adborth i ymgeiswyr aflwyddiannus a hawl i apelio a ddeilliodd o adolygiad y corff adolygu athrawon ysgol a groesawyd.
Jocelyn’s amendment 5 refers to serious deficiencies in the framework for performance related pay. I recognise the strength of feeling about the way in which the threshold criteria refers to pupil progress. One of my first acts as Minister was to make strong representations to David Blunkett about changing this, or allowing Wales to act as a control group. However, I reject the amendment. It is out of date when we consider the welcome changes that have resulted from the school teachers’ review body’s review. When we consider that the appeal mechanisms are now in place, we are ensuring that teachers in Wales are dealt with properly and fairly.
Cyfeiria gwelliant 5 Jocelyn at ddiffygion difrifol yn y fframwaith ar gyfer tâl ar sail perfformiad. Cydnabyddaf fod teimladau cryf ynglŷn â’r ffordd y cyfeiria’r meini prawf trothwy at gynnydd disgyblion. Un o’m gweithredoedd cyntaf fel Gweinidog oedd gwneud sylwadau cryf i David Blunkett ynglŷn â newid hyn, neu ganiatáu i Gymru weithredu fel grŵp rheoli. Fodd bynnag, gwrthodaf y gwelliant. Nid yw’n gyfredol bellach pan ystyriwn y newidiadau i’w croesawu a ddeilliodd o adolygiad y corff adolygu athrawon ysgol. Pan ystyriwn fod y dulliau apelio bellach ar waith, yr ydym yn sicrhau y caiff athrawon yng Nghymru eu trin mewn modd teg a phriodol.
I am also concerned that passing this amendment would send the wrong signals to the thousands of eligible teachers in Wales, who I hope have now their threshold applications well in hand for the 16 March deadline. I have strongly encouraged them to apply for the extra £2,000. We saw an 80 per cent application rate in England. I want to see a 100 per cent application rate of all eligible teachers in Wales. I hope that every Assembly Member will support that aspiration. The framework applies to this year, and teachers in Wales should not be deflected from their applications by messages about deficiencies. However, I have already reported to Committee that there will be an opportunity for our concerns to be fully represented in the review that will be commissioned by the Department for Education and Employment and presented to the school teachers’ review body in time for its next review.
Yr wyf hefyd yn pryderu y bydd cymeradwyo’r gwelliant hwn yn cyfleu’r neges anghywir i filoedd o athrawon cymwys yng Nghymru sydd erbyn hyn, gobeithio, wrthi’n paratoi eu ceisiadau trothwy erbyn y dyddiad terfynol sef 16 Mawrth. Yr wyf wedi eu hannog yn daer i wneud cais am y £2,000 ychwanegol. Gwnaeth 80 y cant o athrawon gais yn Lloegr. Hoffwn weld 100 y cant o athrawon cymwys yn gwneud cais yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn cefnogi’r dyhead hwnnw. Mae’r fframwaith yn berthnasol i’r flwyddyn hon, ac ni ddylai sylw athrawon yng Nghymru gael ei dynnu oddi wrth eu ceisiadau oherwydd negeseuon am ddiffygion. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf eisoes wedi hysbysu’r Pwyllgor y bydd cyfle inni fynegi ein holl bryderon yn yr adolygiad i’w gomisiynu gan yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth a’i gyflwyno i’r corff adolygu athrawon ysgol mewn pryd ar gyfer ei adolygiad nesaf.
We want to create a clear framework of support throughout teachers’ professional lives, from entry to retirement. On induction and early professional development, we have a distinctive document, which will come forward shortly. It considers the first three years of a newly qualified teacher’s career, rather than one year, which is distinctive from our colleagues in England, and it sets out a framework for this crucial early professional development—when teachers can feel lonely and in a new environment. We want to ensure that they are fully supported in Wales. We have a great potential for setting our teachers off on the right path for their professional growth.
Yr ydym am greu fframwaith cefnogi clir drwy gydol bywydau proffesiynol athrawon, o dderbyn i ymddeol. O ran sefydlu a datblygiad proffesiynol cynnar, mae gennym ddogfen arbennig, a gyflwynir yn y man. Mae’n ystyried y tair blynedd gyntaf mewn gyrfa athro newydd gymhwyso, yn hytrach na blwyddyn, sydd yn wahanol i’n cydweithwyr yn Lloegr, ac mae’n nodi fframwaith ar gyfer y datblygiad proffesiynol cynnar holl bwysig hwn—pan fo athrawon yn gallu teimlo’n unig a phan fônt mewn amgylchedd newydd. Yr ydym am sicrhau y cânt gefnogaeth lawn yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfle gwych i roi ein hathrawon ar y trywydd iawn o ran eu twf proffesiynol.
On professional development generally, we have already established arrangements for in-service training days. Estyn has reviewed the effectiveness of INSET days. We provide grants through our grants for education support and training, known as GEST to members of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee—£58 million worth of grants next year. We support training teachers in information technology through the new opportunities fund. I agree that we need to look at whether there are gaps that the Assembly needs to address. However, in view of Estyn’s reviews of in-service provision of the major consultations that we will already be conducting with the profession this year and of the stocktake that I have indicated, it would not be appropriate to pursue further evaluations and reviews called for by amendments 2 and 4.
O ran datblygiad proffesiynol yn gyffredinol, yr ydym eisoes wedi rhoi trefniadau ar waith ar gyfer diwrnodau hyfforddiant mewn swydd. Adolygodd Estyn effeithiolrwydd diwrnodau HMS. Darparwn grantiau drwy ein rhaglen grantiau cynnal addysg a hyfforddiant, a adwaenir fel GEST ymhlith aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes—grantiau gwerth £58 miliwn y flwyddyn nesaf. Cefnogwn hyfforddiant athrawon ym maes technoleg gwybodaeth drwy’r gronfa cyfleodd newydd. Cytunaf fod angen inni ystyried a oes bylchau y dylai’r Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â hwy. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried adolygiadau Estyn o ddarpariaeth mewn swydd y prif ymgynghoriadau â’r proffesiwn yr ydym yn eu cynnal eisoes eleni ynghyd â’r adolygiad sefyllfa a nodwyd gennyf, ni fyddai’n briodol gwneud gwerthusiadau ac adolygiadau pellach fel y cynigiwyd yng ngwelliannau 2 a 4.
On the sharper focus on the professional development of headteachers, it is important that we have the best kind of leadership in our schools. We must make a substantial investment into a comprehensive programme of training, support and development for headteachers. We have done this in our national headship development programme. It has three main elements—aspiring headteachers, headteachers in their first two years in post, and experienced headteachers. Once again, we are trying to meet the needs across the board.
O ran y ffocws cliriach ar ddatblygiad proffesiynol penaethiaid, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael yr arweiniad gorau yn ein hysgolion. Rhaid inni fuddsoddi’n sylweddol mewn rhaglen hyfforddiant, cefnogaeth a datblygiad cynhwysfawr ar gyfer penaethiaid. Gwnaethom hynny yn ein rhaglen datblygu penaethiaid genedlaethol. Mae tair prif elfen iddi—darpar-benaethiaid, penaethiaid yn eu dwy flynedd gyntaf yn y swydd, a phenaethiaid profiadol. Unwaith eto, yr ydym yn ceisio bodloni’r anghenion ar bob lefel.
The framework to recognise teachers’ performance involves a second major consultation document for the first half of 2001. The Education and Lifelong Learning Committee considered an earlier consultation and strongly supported a performance management appraisal system that was not linked directly to examination results, but provided opportunities for teacher development. Importantly, the scheme that we would want to introduce would require every teacher to be given feedback. The consultation will involve a comprehensive set of proposals, but it is consultation. We want to work on all these initiatives in partnership with our colleagues in the teaching profession.
Mae’r fframwaith ar gyfer cydnabod perfformiad athrawon ynghlwm wrth ail brif ddogfen ymgynghorol ar gyfer rhan gyntaf 2001. Ystyriodd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ymgynghoriad cynharach gan gefnogi’n frwd system gwerthuso rheoli perfformiad nad oedd wedi ei chysylltu’n uniongyrchol â chanlyniadau arholiadau, ond a oedd yn rhoi cyfle i athrawon ddatblygu. Yn bwysig, byddai’r cynllun yr hoffem ei gyflwyno yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i bob athro gael adborth. Bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn cynnwys cyfres gynhwysfawr o gynigion, ond ymgynghoriad ydyw. Yr ydym am weithio ar yr holl fentrau hyn mewn partneriaeth gyda’n cydweithwyr yn y proffesiwn addysgu.
The establishment of the General Teaching Council for Wales demanded much of the Assembly, including several sets of regulations, the organisation of elections, appointments carried out to Nolan criteria, provision of financial assistance for the first year and secondment arrangements for staff. All that has been achieved to the same timescale as the establishment of a GTC in England. I look forward to the council providing us with advice on a range of issues and acting as an effective independent professional body. It is a great opportunity to raise the standard of the teaching profession in Wales.
Bu sefydlu Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru yn gryn dasg i’r Cynulliad, gan gynnwys llunio sawl cyfres o reoliadau, trefnu etholiadau, penodi yn unol â meini prawf Nolan, rhoi cymorth ariannol yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf a threfnu secondiadau i’r staff. Cyflwynwyd hynny oll o fewn yr un amserlen â sefydlu Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol yn Lloegr. Edrychaf ymlaen at yr adeg pan fydd y cyngor yn ein cynghori ar ystod o faterion ac yn gweithredu fel corff proffesiynol annibynnol effeithiol. Mae’n gyfle gwych i godi safon y proffesiwn yng Nghymru.
I have no difficulty with the sentiments of amendment 6, which notes the establishment of the GTC. However, to ensure that we have a clear motion, if amendment 2 falls, I would be grateful if you would withdraw amendment 6.
Ni chaf unrhyw broblem o safbwynt perwyl gwelliant 6, sydd yn nodi sefydlu’r Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym gynnig clir, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn tynnu gwelliant 6 yn ôl, os bydd gwelliant 2 yn methu.
The progress report on ‘Betterwales.com’ targets indicates that much has been done. Further work in the pipeline shows that we have a coherent framework. That underpins our commitment to raising standards. I look forward to other Members’ contributions in the debate.
Noda’r adroddiad cynnydd ar dargedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’ fod cryn dipyn wedi ei wneud. Dengys gwaith pellach sydd ar y gweill fod gennym fframwaith cydlynus. Mae hynny yn ategu ein hymrwymiad i godi safonau. Edrychaf ymlaen at gyfraniadau Aelodau eraill yn y ddadl hon.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ychwanegu ar ôl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. I propose amendment 1. Add after ‘National Assembly’
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu ‘croesawu’ a phob peth sydd yn dod ar ei ôl ac ychwanegu:
I propose amendment 2. Delete ‘welcomes’ and all that follows it and add:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 4. Add at end of motion as new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 5. Add at end of motion as new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 6. Add at end of motion as new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 7. Add at end of motion as new clause:
Datganaf fuddiant fel athro cofrestredig a fydd, efallai, ar ôl ymddeol, yn derbyn hyfforddiant mewn swydd.
I declare an interest as a registered teacher who, perhaps, after retiring, will receive in-service training.
Ni fydd athrawon, rhieni, llywodraethwyr nac addysgwyr yn gyffredinol yn meddwl llawer o’r cynnig hwn. Serch hynny, croesawn o leiaf un o’r datganiadau a wnaeth Jane Davidson ynglŷn â’r cynlluniau ar gyfer datblygiad proffesiynol cynnar. Mae hynny’n ymddangos fel petai’n dilyn y math o batrwm sydd wedi datblygu yng Ngogledd Iwerddon. Mae angen cryfhau cynhaliaeth i athrawon yn ystod eu blynyddoedd cynnar, ac mae hynny i’w groesawu.
Teachers, parents, governors and educationalists in general will be unimpressed by this motion. However, we welcome at least one of Jane Davidson’s statements about the plans for early professional development. That appears to follow the sort of pattern developed in Northern Ireland. We need to strengthen support for teachers in their early years, and that is to be welcomed.
Yr hyn a geir yn y cynnig yw dyfyniad o ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a hunanlongyfarch. Os oes tystiolaeth o lwyddiant wrth gyrraedd rhai o dargedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’, dylid cyflwyno hynny i’r Cynulliad mewn adroddiad dadansoddol gydag esboniad o’r ffactorau a arweiniodd at lwyddiant. Ni cheir unrhyw beth o’r fath yma, a dyna pam mae ein gwelliannau, i bob pwrpas, yn ailysgrifennu’r cynnig hwn, gan restru rhai o’r materion y mae angen eu trafod. Mae’n drawiadol bod y cynnig gwreiddiol yn llongyfarch y Llywodraeth ond heb fynegi gwerthfawrogiad o waith arwrol athrawon. Yr wyf yn falch bod Jane Davidson wedi gweld y diffyg ac wedi mynegi’r gwerthfawrogiad hwnnw yn ei sylwadau. Dyna bwynt gwelliant 7.
What we have in the motion is a quote from ‘Betterwales.com’ and self-congratulation. If there is evidence of success in meeting some of the targets of ‘Betterwales.com’, that should be presented to the Assembly in an analytical report with an explanation of the factors that led to success. There is nothing of that sort here, and that is why our amendments virtually rewrite this motion, listing some of the issues that need to be discussed. It is telling that the original motion congratulates the Government without expressing appreciation of teachers’ heroic work. I am glad that Jane Davidson saw that that was lacking and expressed that appreciation in her remarks. That is the point of amendment 7.
Mae gwelliant 1 yn cyfeirio at broblemau sylweddol sydd yn parhau o ran recriwtio athrawon. Dywed Jane Davidson nad oes problem o ran hynny ond byddwn i’n dweud bod y broblem yn parhau. Deallaf fod y grantiau i hyfforddedigion graddedig yn y sector uwchradd wedi cael effaith, ond nid oes arwyddion bod y tueddiadau tymor hir yn gwella. Beth fydd yn digwydd os daw’r grantiau i ben?
Amendment 1 refers to the grave problems that still exist in terms of teacher recruitment. Jane Davidson says that there is no problem in this respect, but I would say that the problem persists. I understand that the grants for graduate trainees in the secondary sector have made an impact, but there are no signs that long-term trends are improving. What will happen if the grants come to an end?
Yr ydym yn falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ildio ar grantiau i hyfforddedigion yn y sector cynradd, ond mae myfyrwyr un flwyddyn gyfan wedi cael cam difrifol. I fod yn gyfiawn, dylent gael eu digolledu. Fel plaid, yr ydym wedi galw dro ar ôl tro am bolisïau addysg penodol a gwahanol i Gymru. Ni feddyliasom erioed mai’r enghraifft gyntaf o hynny fyddai bargen salach i ddarpar athrawon cynradd yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Nid felly yr oeddwn wedi meddwl am bolisïau gwahanol i Gymru. Petai dyn yn ceisio ei orau, ni allai fyth feddwl am waeth ffordd o brofi manteision datganoli.
We are pleased that the Government of Wales gave way on grants for trainees in the primary sector, but the students of one whole year have suffered a grave injustice. To be just, they should be reimbursed. As a party, we have called time after time for specific and different education policies for Wales. We never thought that the first example of that would be a worse deal for prospective primary teachers in Wales than in England. That is not how I had thought of different policies for Wales. If one tried one’s best, one could never think of a worse way of proving the benefits of devolution.
Yr hyn sydd ei angen yn awr yw strategaeth recriwtio sydd yn benodol ac yn briodol i Gymru. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod swyddog recriwtio wedi ei benodi o’r diwedd. Mae’n siŵr bod blwyddyn wedi mynd heibio ers inni alw am hynny fel mater o frys. Deallaf y bydd y person hwn, yn dechnegol, yn gweithio i’r Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid iddo ef neu hi ddilyn agenda Gymreig. Gobeithiaf y bydd y swyddog recriwtio yn cydweithio gyda’r Fforwm Recriwtio Athrawon, ac y bydd cynnwys awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion yn cryfhau’r Fforwm. Dylai’r person hwn gydweithio hefyd gyda’r Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol, corff a ddylai ddatblygu rôl fel eiriolydd dros y proffesiwn, yn ogystal â rheoleiddio. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’n rhaid ei sicrhau.
We now need a recruitment strategy that is specific and appropriate to Wales. I am glad to hear that a recruitment officer has been appointed at last. A year must have passed since we called for that as a matter of urgency. I understand that this person will, technically, be working for the Teacher Training Agency. However, he or she will have to work to a Welsh agenda. I hope that the recruitment officer will work closely with the Teacher Recruitment Forum, and that bringing in local education authorities and schools will strengthen the Forum. This person should also work closely with the General Teaching Council, a body that should develop a role as a mediator for the profession, as well as a regulator. That is something that we must ensure.
Gobeithiaf y bydd y Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol yn diffinio meini prawf ar gyfer mynediad i’r proffesiwn sydd yn addas i Gymru ac yn gymorth, nid yn rhwystr, i recriwtio, gan fod rhai o’r canllawiau presennol yn atal pobl rhag ymuno â’r proffesiwn. Mae gan Gyngor y Prifysgolion ar gyfer Addysgu Athrawon (Cymru) gyfraniad pwysig i’w wneud o ran syniadau am strategaeth ac, wrth gwrs, am hyfforddiant cychwynnol. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau y caiff y syniadau hynny eu clywed yn gyson a’u parchu.
I hope that the General Teaching Council will develop criteria for entry into the profession that are suitable to Wales, and that help rather than hinder recruitment, because some of the current guidelines prevent people from entering the profession. The Universities Council for the Education of Teachers (Wales) also has an important contribution in terms of ideas for a strategy and, of course, in initial training. I hope that the Minister will ensure that those ideas are listened to regularly and are respected.
Mae hyfforddiant mewn swydd a’r gwasanaeth ymgynghorol i athrawon yn holl bwysig o ran codi safonau a galluogi athrawon i ymdopi â newidiadau, sydd bob amser yn sialens fawr. Yng nghyfarfod y cyn Bwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 ar 25 Hydref 2000, holwyd Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru i ba raddau yr oedd cysylltiad rhwng y math o wybodaeth am berfformiad ysgolion sydd yn cael ei chasglu drwy arolygiadau ysgolion, canlyniadau profion a chanlyniadau arholiadau allanol ar y naill law, a’r broses o ddarparu cyngor a hyfforddiant mewn swydd i athrawon ar y llaw arall. Dywedodd Jane Davidson bod cysylltiad. Fodd bynnag, cefais yr argraff y diwrnod hwnnw nad oes unrhyw un yn gyfrifol am dynnu’r edafedd honno ynghyd nac am werthuso’r cysylltiad rhwng y ddarpariaeth a’r canlyniadau. Sut y gellir honni, felly, fel y gwna’r cynnig, y ceir ‘safonau addysgu uwch drwy well hyfforddiant mewn swydd’? Nid ydym yn gwybod gan nad oes tystiolaeth o hynny. Dyna paham y mae gwelliant 2 yn galw am werthuso’r berthynas honno, sef rhywbeth y mae mawr angen ei wneud.
In-service training and the teachers’ advisory service are vital in terms of raising standards and enabling teachers to cope with change, which is always a great challenge. At its meeting on 25 October 2000, the former Pre-16 Education Committee questioned the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales as to what extent was there a connection between the kind of information on school performance collated through school inspections, test results and external examination results on the one hand, and the process of providing advice and INSET training for teachers on the other. Jane Davidson said that there was a connection. However, I got the impression on that day that no-one is responsible for bringing those strands together or for evaluating the link between the provision and the outcomes. How then is it possible to claim, as the motion does, that ‘higher standards of teaching’ will be achieved ‘through improved in-service training’? We do not know, as there is no evidence of that. That is why amendment 2 calls for an evaluation of that relationship, something that needs to be done urgently.
Trof at welliant 4 a’r alwad am arolwg cynhwysfawr o’r trefniadau cyfredol ar gyfer cyngor a hyfforddiant mewn swydd i athrawon. Ceir teimlad cryf ymysg addysgwyr bod ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol wedi gwneud darparu gwasanaeth ymgynghorol cynhwysfawr yn broblematig, a dweud y lleiaf, ac eithrio rhai achosion lle darperir y gwasanaeth ar draws ffiniau siroedd. Felly, ceir gwasanaeth boddhaol mewn rhai mannau o hyd. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym sefyllfa hwp-di-hap, lle dylid cael cysondeb a sicrwydd ansawdd.
I turn to amendment 4 and the call for a comprehensive review of current arrangements for giving advice and INSET training to teachers. There is a strong feeling among educationalists that local government reorganisation has made the provision of a comprehensive advisory service problematic to say the least, with the exception of some cases where the service is available across county boundaries. Therefore, a decent service is still available in some places. However, we have a hit or miss situation, when we should have consistency and quality assurance.
Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth genedlaethol fod yn gyfrifol am roi trefn ar y cawdel. Mae angen uno datblygu cwricwlwm, asesu ac arholi, cynghori athrawon a hyfforddiant mewn swydd yn un system gydlynus. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi galw dro ar ôl tro am i swyddogaethau ACCAC a Chyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru—mae CBAC yn gwneud gwaith pwysig o ran hyfforddiant mewn swydd—gael eu huno fel un corff. Dylid hefyd ystyried rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb am y gwasanaeth cynghori a hyfforddiant mewn swydd i’r un corff. Byddai’r corff hwnnw hefyd yn cydweithio’n agos â’r arolygiaeth. Hyd yn hyn, mae’r grŵp Llafur wedi wfftio’r syniad. Fodd bynnag, cefais adborth o fyd addysg sydd, yn gyffredinol, yn cefnogi’r awgrym, fel ag y gwnaeth David Reynolds yn ei erthygl yn rhifyn cyfredol Agenda. Yn 2003, bydd Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru yn dechrau rhoi’r diwygiadau hyn ar waith. Y trueni yw y bydd yn rhaid i’r genedl a’i haddysgwyr aros tan hynny. Byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi pe baech yn dechrau ar y gwaith hwn yn y cyfamser.
The national Government should take responsibility for sorting out this mess. We need to bring together curriculum development, assessment and examination, advice for teachers and INSET training within one co-ordinated system. Plaid Cymru has called time and again for the functions of ACCAC and the Welsh Joint Education Committee—the WJEC carries out important work in terms of INSET training—to be brought together in one organisation. We should also consider making that organisation responsible for the advisory service and INSET training. That organisation would also work closely with the inspectorate. The Labour group has thus far disregarded the idea. However, I have received feedback from the education field that, generally, supports the suggestion, as did David Reynolds in his article in the current edition of Agenda. In 2003, the Plaid Cymru Government will start to implement these changes. It is a pity that the nation and its educationalists will have to wait until then. We would appreciate it if you would start this work in the meantime.
Wrth gyfeirio at y pwynt hwn, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog beth sydd yn digwydd o ran y trafodaethau pwysig gyda CBAC, yn dilyn y penderfyniad ar 11 Tachwedd, a phryd y gall y Cynulliad ddisgwyl adroddiad arnynt?
In mentioning this point, I ask the Minister what is happening in terms of the important discussions with the WJEC, following the resolution on 11 November, and when can we expect a report back to the Assembly?
Byddai’r uniad y soniais amdano yn ei gwneud yn bosibl inni lunio cwricwlwm cenedlaethol sydd yn addas i Gymru ac i’r unfed ganrif ar hugain. Mae hyn yn berthnasol iawn i’r pwnc dan sylw gan fod gennym dystiolaeth sydd yn dangos bod rhai o’n hathrawon mwyaf dawnus yn ymadael â’r proffesiwn—yn enwedig, lle y mae hynny’n bosibl, athrawon rhwng 50 a 60 oed—gan fod gofynion y cwricwlwm presennol, nid yn unig yn feichus, ond yn gaethiwus. Nid yw’n rhoi rhyddid proffesiynol iddynt fod yn ddyfeisgar ac yn hyblyg. Yn dilyn Deddf 1988, yr hyn a gawsom, wedi’r cyfan, oedd addasiad o gwricwlwm a luniwyd ar gyfer Lloegr, a oedd yn rhy fanwl-osodedig. Arweiniodd y ffaith nad ystyriwyd pwnc ychwanegol gorfodol Cymru, sef y Gymraeg, at orlenwi’r cwricwlwm. Bydd angen fframwaith mwy hyblyg y tro nesaf—fframwaith sydd yn Gymreig-gydwladol yn ei hanfod, ac nid ychwanegiad fel y cwricwlwm presennol. Yn yr achos hwn hefyd, byddai Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru 2003-07 yn gwerthfwarogi pe bai’r gwaith paratoawl wedi ei ddechrau cyn inni ddod i rym. Ond fel y dywedir yn Saesneg, nid wyf yn dal fy ngwynt.
The merger that I described would make it possible for us to design a national curriculum that is appropriate for Wales and the twenty-first century. This is particularly relevant to the issue under consideration because evidence suggests that some of our most talented teachers are leaving the profession—particularly, wherever possible, teachers between 50 and 60 years old—because they find the requirement of the current curriculum not only burdensome, but also restrictive. It does not give them professional freedom to be inventive and flexible. Following the 1988 Act, what we got, after all, was an adaptation of the curriculum designed for England, which was too prescriptive. The curriculum became overcrowded because no consideration was given to the additional compulsory subject in Wales, the Welsh language. We will need a more flexible framework next time—an essentially Welsh and multi-national framework, rather than an additional bolt-on such as the current curriculum. In this case also, the Plaid Cymru Government of 2003-07 would appreciate if the preparatory work were started before we came to power. However, I will not hold my breath.
Yr wyf eisoes wedi codi cwestiwn ynglŷn â’r maes llafur TGAU Saesneg newydd. Nid oes sôn am ymdrech gan ACCAC i lunio maes llafur penodol Gymreig. Pe bai corff cenedlaethol yn gyfrifol am gwricwlwm, asesu ac arholiadau allanol, siawns na fyddai pethau’n wahanol. Beth yw amserlen a bwriad y Gweinidog ar gyfer diwygio’r cwricwlwm ymhellach?
I have already raised the question of the new GCSE English syllabus. There is no mention of an attempt by ACCAC to produce a distinctive Welsh syllabus. If a national organisation was responsible for curriculum, assessment and external examinations, surely things would be different. What is the Minister’s timetable and intention for reforming the curriculum further?
I gloi, mae angen ymchwil perthnasol o ansawdd uchel i borthi penderfyniadau ac arferion da yn ein system addysg yng Nghymru. Mae gan yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth yr hyn a gamddisgrifir yn National Research Forum. Y perygl yw y bydd hwnnw yn dominyddu’r agenda ymchwil yng Nghymru yn ogystal â Lloegr. Yr wyf yn falch, felly, fod UCET (Cymru) wedi dechrau ar arolwg o ymchwil addysgol yma, a gobeithiaf y bydd Jane Davidson yn sicrhau y bydd cefnogaeth gref i’r arolwg hwnnw. Byddai hynny’n ei gwneud yn bosibl yn y dyfodol inni gael trafodaethau megis un heddiw ar sail tystiolaeth lawnach o lawer nag sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym yn brin o dystiolaeth ymchwil ar gyfer y gwasanaeth addysg yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol.
To conclude, we need high quality, relevant research to inform decision-making and good practices in our education system in Wales. The Department for Education and Employment has what is inaccurately described as a National Research Forum. The danger is that that will dominate the research agenda in Wales as well as England. I am pleased, therefore, that UCET (Wales) has initiated a review of educational research here, and I hope that Jane Davidson will ensure that there will be strong support for this review. That would then enable us in future to have debates such as today’s on the basis of much more comprehensive evidence than we have at present. We are short on research evidence on the education service in Wales in general.
Cefnogwn welliant 3 William Graham, sydd yn gryfach a gwell na’n gwelliant ni ar gysylltu cyflog athrawon a pherfformiad, ac yr wyf yn fodlon tynnu gwelliant 6 yn ôl. Yr wyf yn cymryd y bydd ein gwelliant ni ar y mater hwnnw’n syrthio, ac felly na fydd diben inni wthio gwelliant 6 i bleidlais.
We welcome William Graham’s amendment 3, which is stronger and better than our amendment on linking teachers’ pay to performance, and I am willing to withdraw amendment 6. I take it that our amendment on that matter will fall, and therefore that there will be no purpose to push amendment 6 to a vote.
I propose amendment 3 in the name of William Graham. Insert after ‘Council for Wales’
Cynigiaf welliant 3 yn enw William Graham. Ychwanegu ar ôl ‘Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru’
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 65
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65
I welcome this debate and its importance to our children’s future, whose formative years are affected by the teaching profession. We should pay tribute, as the Minister has already done, to teachers, who are the single greatest resource in schools and the most crucial element in the education equation.
Croesawaf y ddadl hon a’i phwysigrwydd i ddyfodol ein plant, y dylanwedir ar eu blynyddoedd cynnar gan athrawon. Dylem dalu teyrnged i athrawon, fel y gwnaeth y Gweinidog eisoes, sef yr adnodd mwyaf mewn ysgolion a’r elfen bwysicaf oll yn yr hafaliad addysg.
The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning told us there are no teacher shortages. I was similarly informed earlier today by the Deputy Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning in a live television debate. I say to the Government that the National Union of Teachers and the General Teaching Council think differently. The General Teaching Council and NUT Cymru have asked the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning and the Assembly to urgently address the teacher recruitment crisis in Wales. Not only do they believe that there is a crisis, but Professor John Andrews, who chairs the General Teaching Council in Wales, has also said that he would ask the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to ensure that the recruitment crisis did not worsen. Therefore, while the Government, on the one hand is saying one thing, the teaching profession and those representing the teaching profession seem to think differently.
Dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wrthym nad oes prinder athrawon. Clywais yr un peth gan y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gynharach heddiw mewn dadl fyw ar y teledu. Dywedaf wrth y Llywodraeth nad yw Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon a’r Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol yn cyd-fynd. Gofynnodd y Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol a NUT Cymru i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Cynulliad i fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng mewn recriwtio athrawon yng Nghymru fel mater o frys. Credant nid yn unig fod argyfwng, ond dywedodd yr Athro John Andrews, sef cadeirydd Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru, hefyd y byddai’n gofyn i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes sicrhau nad oedd yr argyfwng recriwtio yn gwaethygu. Felly, tra bod y Llywodraeth ar y naill law yn dweud un peth, ymddengys fod y proffesiwn a’r rhai sydd yn ei gynrychioli yn meddwl fel arall.
I wish to ask a few questions on the training wage that the Government has announced for primary school teachers, because the position seems to have altered. Previously, the former Secretary for Education and Children, Rosemary Butler, announced that money would be made available for training grants for those individuals who could become secondary school teachers. The reason we were given was because of a trainee shortage. There was a shortage and a crisis within the secondary school sector, particularly in key areas such as mathematics and science. That was the principle that drove the Government at the time to introduce that particular policy to address the deficiency. The policy and principle seem to have altered, because that has now been extended to primary school trainee teachers, where there is no deficiency. In fact, we have a surplus of primary school trainee teachers in Wales. Clearly, the principle has changed. However, I welcome the fact that the money is being made available to primary school trainee teachers as well as to secondary school trainee teachers. By doing that, we can take a step forward in recognising those individuals who are truly entering a profession.
Hoffwn ofyn ychydig o gwestiynau am y cyflog hyfforddiant a gyhoeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth ar gyfer athrawon ysgol gynradd oherwydd ymddengys fod y sefyllfa wedi newid. Cyn hyn, cyhoeddodd y cyn-Ysgrifennydd dros Addysg a Phlant, Rosemary Butler, y byddai arian ar gael ar gyfer grantiau hyfforddiant i’r unigolion hynny a allai ddod yn athrawon ysgol uwchradd. Y rheswm a roddwyd inni dros hynny oedd prinder hyfforddedigion. Bu prinder ac argyfwng o fewn y sector ysgolion uwchradd, yn enwedig mewn meysydd allweddol megis mathemateg a gwyddoniaeth. Dyna’r egwyddor a symbylodd y Llywodraeth ar y pryd i gyflwyno’r polisi penodol hwnnw er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r prinder. Ymddengys fod y polisi a’r egwyddor wedi newid, am fod y rhain erbyn hyn wedi eu hymestyn i’r rhai sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgol gynradd, lle nad oes prinder. Yn wir, mae gennym ormod o bobl yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgol gynradd yng Nghymru. Mae’r egwyddor, yn amlwg, wedi newid. Fodd bynnag, croesawaf y ffaith bod arian ar gael i’r rhai sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgol gynradd yn ogystal â rhai sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgol uwchradd. Wrth wneud hynny, gallwn gymryd cam ymlaen drwy gydnabod yr unigolion hynny sydd yn wir yn ymuno â phroffesiwn.
The word profession has been lost in recent years and we need to restore the professional status of our teachers in Wales in the same way as when university students get their law degrees and go on to become solicitors, they receive financial assistance when undertaking their articles. It recognises the professional status of that particular job. It is right and proper that the National Assembly for Wales should recognise the professional status of our teachers.
Collwyd y gair proffesiwn yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf ac mae angen inni adfer statws proffesiynol ein hathrawon yng Nghymru yn yr un ffordd ag y mae myfyrwyr yn y prifysgolion sydd yn graddio yn y gyfraith ac yn mynd ymlaen i fod yn gyfreithwyr yn cael cymorth ariannol wrth wneud eu herthyglau. Mae’n cydnabod statws proffesiynol y swydd arbennig honno. Mae’n gwbl briodol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru gydnabod statws proffesiynol ein hathrawon.
The amendment tabled by my colleague deals with the performance management framework, particularly performance-related pay. The Minister stated earlier that the commitment in the partnership document only went so far as to say that the Government would negotiate, if it could, with the Westminster Government to see if they could de-couple the issue of examination results. I remind the Government of the precise wording of the partnership document. Point nine of the education section states,
Mae’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelod yn ymwneud â’r fframwaith rheoli perfformiad, yn enwedig tâl ar sail perfformiad. Dywedodd y Gweinidog yn gynharach nad oedd y ddogfen bartneriaeth ond yn nodi y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn ymrwymo i negodi â Llywodraeth San Steffan, os gallai, i weld a ellid gwahanu canlyniadau arholiadau oddi wrth dâl ar sail perfformiad. Atgoffaf y Llywodraeth o union eiriau’r ddogfen bartneriaeth. Noda pwynt naw yn yr adran addysg:
‘Working with the UK Government, we will seek to improve teachers’ pay and conditions in order to attract and retain good teachers in the profession.’
We all agree with that. However, the Minister failed to point out that a completely separate statement states,
Cytunwn oll â hynny. Fodd bynnag, ni nododd y Gweinidog fod datganiad hollol wahanol yn nodi,
‘We will design an improved Performance Management Pay Scheme for teachers, de-coupled from pupils’ exams performance.’
That gives the impression of something different from what the Minister stated in her opening remarks, that this was somehow linked to working with the UK Government. If that is the case, then this it is a dreadfully worded bullet point and I ask the Government to clarify it. Is it the Government’s intention to work with David Blunkett, or will it try to design a completely different system on its own? The wording of bullet point nine is fundamentally different from the impression given by the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning in her opening remarks. The points raised by the teaching profession and those raised by the former Education Committee were valid. There is great concern in the teaching profession about the link between teachers’ performance and students’ performance as examined through the examination results.
Mae hynny yn rhoi argraff sydd yn wahanol i’r hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog yn ei sylwadau agoriadol, sef bod hyn rywsut neu’i gilydd yn gysylltiedig â gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU. Os yw hynny’n wir, mae’r pwynt bwled hwn wedi ei eirio’n wael iawn a gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth ei egluro. Ai bwriad y Llywodraeth yw gweithio gyda David Blunkett, neu a fydd yn ceisio llunio system hollol wahanol ei hun? Mae geiriad pwynt bwled naw yn wahanol yn ei hanfod i’r argraff a roddwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn ei sylwadau agoriadol. Mae’r pwyntiau a godwyd gan y proffesiwn a’r rhai a godwyd gan y cyn-Bwyllgor Addysg yn ddilys. Mae cryn bryder yn y proffesiwn ynghylch y cyswllt rhwng perfformiad athrawon a pherfformiad myfyrwyr fel y’i harchwilir drwy ganlyniadau arholiadau.
Further to that, the Government needs to realise that there are other concerns. The capacity issue is huge in the primary school sector. We are asking headteachers of primary schools to make difficult decisions and assess their good friends and colleagues whom they see on a daily basis. These are individuals with whom they work closely, sit with at lunchtimes and share coffee breaks. They have a strong personal and working relationship with these people. We rely on good working relations between the headteachers of primary schools and the people that they employ. However, we are putting a burden on the shoulders of headteachers by asking them to make these detailed assessments about the competencies of their employees. That is not easy for a primary school headteacher. It is somewhat easier for a secondary school headteacher, but we are still putting a difficult burden on the shoulders of our primary school headteachers.
At hynny, mae angen i’r Llywodraeth sylweddoli bod pryderon eraill. Mae cynhwysedd yn fater sylweddol yn y sector ysgolion cynradd. Yr ydym yn gofyn i benaethiaid ysgolion cynradd wneud penderfyniadau anodd ac asesu eu cyfeillion agos a’u cyd-athrawon a welant bob dydd. Dyma’r bobl y maent yn gweithio’n agos â hwy, yn eistedd gyda hwy amser cinio a rhannu egwyl â hwy. Mae ganddynt berthynas waith a pherthynas bersonol, gadarn â’r bobl hyn. Dibynnwn ar berthynas waith dda rhwng penaethiaid ysgolion cynradd a’r bobl a gyflogir ganddynt. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn rhoi baich ar ysgwyddau penaethiaid drwy ofyn iddynt wneud yr asesiadau manwl hyn am alluoedd eu staff. Nid yw hynny’n hawdd i bennaeth ysgol gynradd. Mae ychydig yn haws i bennaeth ysgol uwchradd, ond yr ydym yn parhau i ofyn i benaethiaid ysgolion cynradd ysgwyddo baich anodd.
Moving on to the issue of leadership in our schools. It is an important question for us to consider. We all know that a good headteacher will be able to turn a school around. A small rural school for example, or a small primary school will rely heavily on the leadership of its headteacher, who in many cases will transform a school, while a poor headteacher could drag a school down. I am pleased that we have launched a headship programme and a programme that assists other teachers, such as deputy heads and other senior teachers. However, it is a great pity that the timetable for launching these projects has dragged behind that of England. In considering Welsh solutions to Welsh problems, devolution should not mean that our nation suddenly has a go-slow sign attached to it. If anything, devolution and the new dynamic should mean that we are imaginative in finding new solutions for problems in Wales. It does not mean that we should lag behind our colleagues in England who seem to steal a march on these issues at every opportunity.
Gan droi at arweinyddiaeth yn ein hysgolion. Mae’n fater pwysig inni ei ystyried. Gwyddom oll y gall pennaeth da newid ysgol er gwell. Bydd ysgol wledig fach, er enghraifft, neu ysgol gynradd fach yn dibynnu’n drwm ar arweinyddiaeth ei phennaeth, a fydd mewn llawer o achosion yn trawsnewid ysgol, tra bod pennaeth gwael yn gallu gostwng safon ysgol. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi lansio rhaglen i benaethiaid a rhaglen a fydd yn cynorthwyo athrawon eraill, fel dirprwy benaethiaid ac uwch athrawon eraill. Fodd bynnag, mae’n drueni mawr bod yr amserlen ar gyfer lansio’r prosiectau hyn ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â Lloegr. O ystyried atebion Cymreig i broblemau Cymreig, ni ddylai datganoli olygu bod ein cenedl yn sydyn â rhyw arwydd ‘arafwch’ arni. Os rhywbeth, dylai datganoli a’r deinamig newydd olygu ein bod yn greadigol wrth ddod o hyd i atebion newydd ar gyfer problemau Cymru. Nid yw’n golygu y dylem fod ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â’n cydweithwyr yn Lloegr sydd, fe ymddengys, yn achub y blaen ar bob cyfle posibl o ran y materion hyn.
I would be grateful if the Minister could address a specific point with regard to the National College for School Leadership. Do Welsh headteachers have full access to its facilities on equal terms with those in England and Scotland? I assume that they do, as I have not seen anything to the contrary. However, if they do not, I would like an explanation. We welcome the establishment of the General Teaching Council. It will take a few years for this institution to bed down. However, in the longer term, we should consider strengthening the institution and turning it not only into a disciplinary body, but a body that can champion professional standards. Perhaps, Minister, we could model it on a chartered institute or a royal college. If we are to turn the body of teachers in Wales into a teaching profession, then the profession needs a professional organisation to support it. I hope that is something that the Government will consider.
Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Gweinidog ymdrin â phwynt penodol am y Coleg Cenedlaethol ar gyfer Arweinyddiaeth Ysgolion. A gaiff penaethiaid Cymru fynediad llawn i’w cyfleusterau yn yr un modd â phenaethiaid o Loegr a’r Alban? Tybiaf eu bod, gan nad wyf wedi gweld tystiolaeth i’r gwrthwyneb. Fodd bynnag, os na chânt fynediad, hoffwn gael eglurhad. Croesawn sefydlu’r Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol. Bydd yn cymryd ychydig o flynyddoedd iddo ymsefydlu. Fodd bynnag, yn y tymor hwy, dylem ystyried atgyfnerthu’r sefydliad a’i droi nid yn unig yn gorff disgyblu, ond yn gorff a all amddiffyn safonau proffesiynol. Efallai, Weinidog, y gallwn ei fodelu ar sefydliad siartredig neu goleg brenhinol. Os ydym yn mynd i droi athrawon Cymru yn broffesiwn, mae angen i’r proffesiwn gael sefydliad proffesiynol i’w gynnal. Gobeithiaf fod hynny’n fater y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei ystyried.
In conclusion, I restate the importance of the teaching profession in Wales, their contribution to the lives of children in Wales and our reliance on them to educate our children to put young people on a sound footing for further and higher education and the world of work. As adults, we all remember certain teachers from our schooling days; the memory of some of us are clearer than others for obvious reasons. We place a great deal of emphasis on our teachers and we should take a lead to ensure that we do everything possible for them.
I gloi, pwysleisiaf bwysigrwydd y proffesiwn hwn yng Nghymru, eu cyfraniad tuag at fywydau plant Cymru a’n dibyniaeth arnynt i addysgu ein plant a rhoi sylfaen gadarn i bobl ifanc ar gyfer addysg bellach ac uwch a’r byd gwaith. Fel oedolion, yr ydym oll yn cofio athrawon o’n dyddiau ysgol; mae gwell cof gan rai ohonom nag eraill am resymau amlwg. Rhoddwn gryn bwyslais ar ein hathrawon a dylem gymryd yr awenau er mwyn sicrhau y gwnawn bopeth o fewn ein gallu drostynt.
I declare an interest as a registered teacher. This debate is on the progress being made on the professional development of teachers. We are making progress. After 18 years of the previous Conservative Government, the teaching profession in this country was left demoralised, under-resourced and uncared-for. However, while we may talk about progress, we must not be too complacent because there is still much to do.
Datganaf fuddiant fel athro cofrestredig. Mae’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â’r cynnydd a wneir o ran datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon. Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd. Ar ôl 18 mlynedd o’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol, yr oedd y proffesiwn yn y wlad hon wedi digalonni, nid oedd ganddynt adnoddau digonol a theimlent eu bod wedi eu hesgeuluso. Fodd bynnag, er y gallwn siarad am gynnydd, rhaid inni beidio â bod yn rhy hunanfodlon am fod llawer i’w wneud o hyd.
The Liberal Democrats recognise that good quality education is vital and the teaching profession plays a key role. I recognise that role because in Powys the education service is magnificent. While the National Assembly has a duty to provide the resources and framework to enable improvements to take place, we also recognise that teachers must take the lead in their own professional development, for themselves and for the good of children’s education.
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cydnabod bod addysg safonol yn hanfodol a bod y proffesiwn yn chwarae rôl allweddol. Cydnabyddaf y rôl honno am fod y gwasanaeth addysg ym Mhowys yn wych. Er bod dyletswydd ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddarparu’r adnoddau a’r fframwaith a fydd yn sicrhau gwelliannau, cydnabyddwn hefyd fod rhaid i athrawon gymryd yr awenau o ran eu datblygiad proffesiynol eu hunain, er eu lles hwy eu hunain a lles addysg plant.
The Liberal Democrats are committed to improving education. I am pleased that in ‘Putting Wales First’, the partnership Government has outlined clear objectives to help us achieve that aim. Central to that aim is the increased resources that we have agreed as part of the budget for the next three years to provide funding to help us reduce class sizes and upgrade school buildings, and in line with the letter to school governors from the Minister, increase the transparency of funding to schools in Wales.
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ymrwymedig i wella addysg. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf’ wedi nodi amcanion clir i’n cynorthwyo i gyflawni’r nod hwnnw. Wrth wraidd y nod hwnnw y mae’r adnoddau ychwanegol y cytunasom arnynt fel rhan o’r gyllideb ar gyfer y tair blynedd nesaf i roi’r arian i’n cynorthwyo i leihau maint dosbarthiadau ac uwchraddio adeiladau ysgolion, ac yn gyson â llythyr y Gweinidog at lywodraethwyr ysgolion, i sicrhau bod y ffordd y caiff ysgolion yng Nghymru eu hariannu yn dryloyw.
In terms of teacher’s professional development, the Liberal Democrats recognise that there has to be a partnership approach. There is still much to do and much of the progress achieved to date could not have happened without the commitment of teachers. We recognise their incredible efforts and commitment. We have no hesitation in supporting Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 7, which seeks to recognise that fact. I look forward to the development of a rural schools policy that will, hopefully, address many of the problems that affect headteachers in small rural schools.
O ran datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cydnabod bod rhaid mabwysiadu ymagwedd bartneriaeth. Mae llawer i’w wneud o hyd ac ni ellid bod wedi gwneud llawer o’r cynnydd hyd yma heb ymrwymiad yr athrawon. Cydnabyddwn eu hymdrechion a’u hymrwymiad diflino. Nid oes unrhyw amheuon gennym wrth gefnogi gwelliant 7 Jocelyn Davies, sydd yn ceisio cydnabod y ffaith honno. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddatblygiad polisi ar ysgolion gwledig a fydd, gobeithiaf, yn mynd i’r afael â llawer o’r problemau sydd yn effeithio ar benaethiaid ysgolion gwledig bach.
The issue of teachers’ pay and conditions courts much controversy. The Assembly is unsatisfied with the outcome to date. To an extent, our hands are tied because the responsibility on this issue has not been devolved to us. However, we have been instrumental in ensuring that we have a better system of performance-related-pay than has been introduced in England, although we have not been able to date to persuade David Blunkett of the need to remove the link to pupil’s exam performance. However, the battle is not over yet. I understand that the system will be reviewed. The Assembly has secured a separate review for Wales and has officially pressed the Department for Education and Employment that performance-related-pay should be decoupled from pupil’s exam performance. Many of you will know that several schools already run an added-value process, which is undertaken by the University of Durham and could assist us in looking at how our children progress in schools and the work done by teachers. Therefore, we will vote against William Graham’s amendment 3. We have sympathy with Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 5, and I will abstain on that amendment.
Mae tâl ac amodau athrawon yn dipyn o bwnc llosg. Mae’r Cynulliad yn anfodlon ar yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd hyd yn hyn. I raddau, clymwyd ein dwylo am na ddatganolwyd cyfrifoldeb dros y mater hwn inni. Fodd bynnag, buom yn gyfrwng wrth sicrhau bod gennym system well o dâl ar sail perfformiad na’r hyn a gyflwynwyd yn Lloegr, er na lwyddasom i ddarbwyllo David Blunkett hyd yn hyn o’r angen i ddileu’r cyswllt â chanlyniadau arholiadau disgyblion. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r frwydr ar ben eto. Deallaf y caiff y system ei hadolygu. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi sicrhau adolygiad ar wahân i Gymru ac wedi pwyso’n swyddogol ar yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth i wahanu tâl ar sail perfformiad oddi wrth ganlyniadau arholiadau disgyblion. Gŵyr llawer ohonoch fod sawl ysgol eisoes yn cynnal proses gwerth ychwanegol, a weithredir gan Brifysgol Durham ac a allai ein cynorthwyo i ystyried sut y mae ein plant yn datblygu yn yr ysgol a’r gwaith a wneir gan athrawon. Felly, pleidleisiwn yn erbyn gwelliant 3 William Graham. Yr ydym yn cydymdeimlo â gwelliant 3 Jocelyn Davies ac ymataliaf ar y gwelliant hwnnw.
I will now mention the problems in the further education sector. Further education teachers are concerned that there is a disparity between the amount of pay they receive in comparison with their colleagues who teach in schools. The result is that the FE sector is having difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff. However, as part of the economic development strategy for Wales, the FE sector is being encouraged to become part of our economic infrastructure. Regrettably, it is finding it hard to achieve this within the resources allocated to it. In particular, the sector is experiencing difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff in information technology and new technologies, areas vitally important to the economic regeneration of Wales.
Soniaf yn awr am broblemau y sector addysg bellach. Mae athrawon addysg bellach yn pryderu bod anghyfartaledd rhwng eu tâl hwy a thâl eu cyd-athrawon sydd yn dysgu mewn ysgolion. O ganlyniad caiff y sector addysg bellach anhawster i recriwtio a chadw staff. Fodd bynnag, fel rhan o strategaeth datblygu economaidd Cymru, anogir i’r sector addysg bellach ddod yn rhan o’n hisadeiledd economaidd. Yn anffodus, mae’n ei chael yn anodd cyflawni hyn o fewn yr adnoddau a ddyrennir iddo. Yn benodol, mae’r sector yn cael anawsterau i recriwtio a chadw staff ym meysydd technoleg gwybodaeth a’r technolegau newydd, sydd yn holl bwysig i adfywio economi Cymru.
The establishment of a £150 million teaching pay initiative, specifically directed at FE teachers in England, is addressing the pay differential between teaching staff in the FE sector and those in schools. However, in Wales no comparable fund has been established. Therefore, FE teachers in Wales feel that while they are already disadvantaged in terms of pay compared to teachers in schools, they will now also be disadvantaged compared to teachers in the FE sector in England. They have been told that in Wales this money is already being passed on in their existing budgets, but unfortunately this was not made clear when the money allocated in the first place. While we welcome that more money is now being given to the FE sector, we must recognise that this extra money merely redresses a decline in funding over the past five years, Therefore, the scope for increasing pay for teachers in the FE sector up to the levels of those in schools or in England, is limited. This is an area where there is still much work to do and we must revisit it in the future.
Mae sefydlu menter £150 miliwn ar dâl athrawon, a anelir yn benodol at athrawon addysg bellach yn Lloegr, yn mynd i’r afael â’r gwahaniaeth mewn tâl rhwng athrawon yn y sector addysg bellach ac athrawon ysgol. Fodd bynnag, yng Nghymru ni sefydlwyd cronfa gyffelyb. Felly, cred athrawon addysg bellach Cymru eu bod nid yn unig o dan anfantais eisoes o gymharu ag athrawon ysgol, ond y byddant yn awr hefyd o dan anfantais o gymharu ag athrawon y sector addysg bellach yn Lloegr. Dywedwyd wrthynt fod yr arian hwn yng Nghymru eisoes yn cael ei drosglwyddo i’w cyllidebau presennol, ond yn anffodus, nid eglurwyd hynny pan ddyrannwyd yr arian yn y lle cyntaf. Er ein bod yn croesawu’r ffaith bod y sector addysg bellach yn cael mwy o arian erbyn hyn, rhaid inni gydnabod nad yw’r arian ychwanegol hwn ond yn gwneud yn iawn am ostyngiad mewn arian dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Felly, nid oes llawer o gyfle i gynyddu tâl athrawon yn y sector addysg bellach i fod yn gyfartal â thâl athrawon ysgol neu eu cymheiriaid yn Lloegr. Mae hwn yn faes lle y mae llawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd a rhaid inni ddychwelyd ato yn y dyfodol.
In conclusion, I turn to Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 1. It is factually incorrect because the partnership Government is committed to providing grants to primary school teacher trainees from September 2001. Therefore, the Liberal Democrats will oppose that amendment.
I gloi, trof at welliant 1 Jocelyn Davies. Nid yw’n gywir yn ffeithiol am fod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn ymrwymedig i roi grantiau i bobl sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgol gynradd o Fedi 2001. Felly, bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwrthwynebu’r gwelliant hwnnw.
I will discuss the grants for education support and training programme. The Minister was eager to remind us of the allocation to that fund for the current year. While the formula for distributing resources to local education authorities through GEST has been reviewed, there is widespread consensus that the system remains fundamentally flawed. The current programme has been criticised as being unsustainable and inequitable.
Trafodaf y rhaglen grantiau cynnal addysg a hyfforddiant. Yr oedd y Gweinidog yn awyddus i’n hatgoffa o’r dyraniad i’r gronfa honno ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyfredol. Er i’r fformwla ar gyfer dyrannu adnoddau i awdurdodau addysg lleol drwy GEST gael ei hadolygu, mae cytundeb cyffredinol bod y system yn ddiffygiol o hyd. Beirniadwyd y rhaglen bresennol am fod yn anghynaliadwy ac yn annheg.
There is considerable variation between authorities on spending per pupil, with the authorities with the highest levels of deprivation spending least. I declare an interest as a member of an LEA. Despite the announcement of changes to the GEST programme, we have no information on what extent the adjustments will address the wider variations across Wales.
Mae cryn amrywiaeth ymhlith yr awdurdodau o ran gwariant fesul disgybl, lle y mae’r awdurdodau â’r amddifadedd mwyaf yn gwario leiaf. Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o AALl. Er gwaethaf y cyhoeddiad y bydd newidiadau i’r rhaglen GEST, nid oes unrhyw wybodaeth gennym i ba raddau y bydd yr addasiadau yn mynd i’r afael â’r amrywiadau ar draws Cymru.
There are several issues surrounding the contribution made by the GEST programme towards the professional development of teachers. Funding for raising standards was allocated on the basis of the number of schools within an LEA not how well schools were performing, which could result in those with the highest standards receiving the most money. The raising standards activity area of GEST funds INSET training and professional development for teachers. However, the delivery of INSET training has been inconsistent across Wales under this programme and criticisms have been levelled at the programme. There have been calls for the national headship development programme to be given a higher profile.
Cyfyd sawl mater ynglŷn â chyfraniad y rhaglen GEST tuag at ddatblygiad proffesiynol athrawon. Dyrannwyd yr arian i godi safonau ar sail nifer yr ysgolion o fewn AALl ac nid ar sail pa mor dda yr oedd ysgolion yn perfformio, a allai arwain at y rhai â’r safonau uchaf yn cael y swm mwyaf o arian. Mae gweithgarwch GEST sydd yn ymwneud â chodi safonau yn ariannu HMS a datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon. Fodd bynnag, ni fu darpariaeth HMS yn gyson ar draws Cymru o dan y rhaglen hon ac fe’i beirniadwyd. Bu galw am godi proffil y rhaglen datblygu penaethiaid genedlaethol.
I am also concerned that the GEST programme often gives no consideration to LEA or school strategic plans. While nearly all GEST funding must be 40 per cent match funded by local authorities, many feel that to do so is not in their best interests. There is a serious strategic deficit in how the money is allocated. The downside of the GEST arrangement has many elements. I have already mentioned the need to match fund. The grant is too fragmented. There are 19 main activities for 2000-01 and although these are set to reduce to 10 for the 2001-02, there has been an increase in the number of priority areas. GEST announcements are made annually and the temporary nature of the programme mitigates against good, long-term planning. For example, I recall when Alun Michael wanted to put more money into school music, one of the compensating reductions affected literacy, an area widely acknowledged as needing long-term, consistent support. Similarly, funding for classroom assistants is about to end, after a three-year period, putting the jobs of many assistants at risk.
Yr wyf hefyd yn pryderu nad yw’r rhaglen GEST yn aml yn ystyried cynlluniau strategol ysgolion neu’r AALl. Er bod rhaid i holl arian GEST bron gael 40 y cant o arian cyfatebol gan awdurdodau lleol, cred llawer nad yw o fudd iddynt wneud hynny. Mae diffyg strategol difrifol ynghylch sut y dyrennir yr arian. Mae i anfanteision trefniadau GEST sawl agwedd. Soniais eisoes am yr angen i sicrhau arian cyfatebol. Mae’r grant yn rhy ddarniog. Ceir 19 o brif weithgareddau ar gyfer 2000-01 ac er y bwriedir lleihau’r nifer i 10 ar gyfer 2001-02, bu cynnydd yn nifer y meysydd â blaenoriaeth. Gwneir cyhoeddiadau GEST yn flynyddol ac mae natur ansefydlog y rhaglen yn llesteirio cynllunio tymor hir. Er enghraifft, cofiaf pan oedd Alun Michael eisiau rhoi mwy o arian i gerddoriaeth mewn ysgolion, un o’r meysydd lle y cafwyd gostyngiad o’r herwydd oedd llythrennedd, sef maes a gydnabyddir yn eang fel un sydd angen cefnogaeth gyson, tymor hir arno. Yn yr un modd, mae arian ar gyfer cynorthwywyr dosbarth ar fin dod i ben, ar ôl cyfnod o dair blynedd, gan beryglu llawer o swyddi cynorthwywyr.
The way in which the grants for education support and training programme is funded gravely concerns me. We need to re-examine how it is managed. It is not based on need, which is perverse when the link between deprivation and the lower levels of educational achievement is well established. The current method of distributing GEST reinforces the inequalities that exist between different parts of Wales. We need to have a programme that is based on a three-year funding period that is funded more equitably in terms of need, particularly in terms of deprivation, and which allows greater flexibility to reflect local priorities.
Mae’r ffordd y caiff y rhaglen grantiau cynnal addysg a hyfforddiant ei hariannu yn achosi cryn bryder imi. Mae angen inni ailystyried sut y’i rheolir. Nid yw wedi ei seilio ar angen, ac mae hynny’n wrthnysig, o ystyried bod y cyswllt rhwng amddifadedd a lefelau cyflawniad addysgol is yn un adnabyddus. Mae’r dull presennol o ddosbarthu GEST yn atgyfnerthu’r anghyfartaledd sydd yn bodoli rhwng gwahanol rannau o Gymru. Mae angen inni gael rhaglen sydd yn seiliedig ar gyfnod ariannu tair blynedd a fydd yn ariannu’n decach o ran angen, yn enwedig o ran amddifadedd, ac sydd yn caniatáu mwy o hyblygrwydd er mwyn adlewyrchu blaenoriaethau lleol.
Thank you, Llywydd, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate and in so doing to support another outstanding contribution from Jonathan Morgan. I must take a slight exception because he verged on ageism towards the end of his speech. Whenever we talk about education in this Chamber, I feel a surge of non-partisanship well up within me. I can only resist that challenge occasionally.
Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd, am roi cyfle imi gyfrannu yn y ddadl hon a thrwy wneud hynny gefnogi cyfraniad rhagorol arall gan Jonathan Morgan. Rhaid imi ddigio wrtho rywfaint am iddo bron ag amlygu rhagfarn oed tua diwedd ei araith. Pryd bynnag y siaradwn am addysg yn y Siambr hon, teimlaf don o ddidueddrwydd yn llifo drosof. Dim ond yn awr ac yn y man y gallaf ymwrthod â’r sialens honno.
I want to agree on many matters. I agree about the importance of debate on education. The future success of our nation depends on good quality education. I was particularly taken by Jonathan’s point about professionalism. I have been linked to education over many years as a pupil and as a parent, and I have noticed a fall in teachers’ status from being treated almost like gods when I was in school—at least when we were in sight—to having little respect. We must find some way of re-establishing teachers’ status.
Hoffwn gytuno â sawl mater. Cytunaf ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd dadl ar addysg. Mae llwyddiant ein cenedl yn y dyfodol yn dibynnu ar addysg safonol. Yr oedd pwynt Jonathan ynglŷn â phroffesiynoldeb yn arbennig wedi fy nharo. Yr wyf wedi cael cyswllt ag addysg ers blynyddoedd lawer fel disgybl a rhiant, a sylwais ar statws athrawon yn disgyn o gael eu trin fel duwiau bron pan oeddwn i yn yr ysgol—o leiaf pan gallem eu gweld—i gael ychydig iawn o barch. Rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ryw ffordd o adfer statws athrawon.
Last week, the Conservatives tabled a debate on education in this Chamber. Every party in the Assembly realises the importance of education in ensuring that we have balanced young people entering adulthood in Wales, that we have responsible young people. We need young people of ability to ensure that every aspect of Welsh life is successful.
Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyflwynwyd dadl ar addysg gan y Ceidwadwyr yn y Siambr hon. Mae pob plaid yn y Cynulliad yn sylweddoli pwysigrwydd addysg i sicrhau bod gennym bobl ifanc gytbwys yn dod yn oedolion yng Nghymru, bod gennym bobl ifanc gyfrifol. Mae angen pobl ifanc alluog i sicrhau bod pob agwedd ar fywyd Cymru yn ffynnu.
The area upon which I want to comment today is economic development. If we are going to be successful in developing Wales’s economy—about which we discuss much in this Chamber—we must have a strong education system that ensures that economic development and its importance to Wales is a part of the curriculum.
Y maes yr hoffwn sôn amdano heddiw yw datblygu economaidd. Os ydym yn mynd i lwyddo i ddatblygu economi Cymru—sef pwnc yr ydym yn ei drafod yn fynych yn y Siambr hon—rhaid inni gael system addysg gadarn sydd yn sicrhau bod datblygu economaidd a’i bwysigrwydd i Gymru yn rhan o’r cwricwlwm.
We often talk in this Chamber about Objective 1 and its importance to west Wales and the Valleys and other parts of Wales, about an effective WDA and its importance to delivering new jobs to Wales, about structural aid—that is assuming that the Deputy First Minister is able to deliver any structural aid for Wales, of which I am unsure—and the Conservatives even sometimes talk about Wales being suddenly transformed if we could stop this ever-rising burden of taxation that the country faces. Taxation continues to rise. None of those issues are remotely as important as delivering an education service that makes all our pupils understand the importance of economic development to our country, and that there is a focus as there has always been on education and business links. Whenever we are talking about those links, in all their different forms, I always want to support them.
Siaradwn yn aml yn y Siambr hon am Amcan 1 a’i bwysigrwydd i orllewin Cymru a’r Cymoedd a rhannau eraill o Gymru, am WDA effeithiol a’i bwysigrwydd i gyflwyno swyddi newydd i Gymru, am gymorth strwythurol—hynny yw a bwrw bod Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru yn gallu sicrhau unrhyw gymorth strwythurol ar gyfer Cymru, nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig—ac mae hyd yn oed y Ceidwadwyr yn siarad weithiau am Gymru yn cael ei thrawsnewid mewn ennyd pe gallem atal y faich dreth fythol-gynyddol a wyneba’r wlad. Mae trethiant yn parhau i gynyddu. Nid oes yr un o’r materion hynny mor bwysig â chyflwyno gwasanaeth addysg sydd yn sicrhau bod ein disgyblion i gyd yn deall pa mor bwysig y mae datblygiad economaidd i’n gwlad, ac y canolbwyntir ar addysg a chysylltiadau busnes fel y bu erioed. Pryd bynnag y siaradwn am y cysylltiadau hynny, ar yr holl wahanol ffurfiau, yr wyf bob amser am eu cefnogi.
When I spoke last week, I raised my concern about the perception that Wales was falling behind. I say ‘perception’. I could enter into this debate and talk about the reality of where Wales falls behind England and Scotland, over which there can be no argument. That is the perception. We know—particularly in Powys, as Mick will know—how many of our headmasters believe that they are falling behind England in terms of the ability to attract teachers to their schools.
Pan siaradais yr wythnos diwethaf, mynegais fy mhryder ynglŷn â’r amgyffrediad bod Cymru yn mynd ar ei hôl hi. Dywedaf ‘amgyffrediad’. Gallwn gyfrannu at y ddadl hon a siarad am y sefyllfa wirioneddol lle y mae Cymru ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â Lloegr a’r Alban, gwirionedd na ellir ei wadu. Dyna’r amgyffrediad. Gwyddom—yn enwedig ym Mhowys, fel y gŵyr Mick—faint o’n penaethiaid sydd yn credu eu bod yn mynd ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â Lloegr o ran gallu i ddenu athrawon i’w hysgolion.
We have all seen what is happening in Scotland. Again, that creates the perception that teachers are valued more in other parts of Britain and that Wales might be falling behind. We must challenge that perception because there is a danger of it becoming a reality in terms of the difficulties in recruiting people into teaching. Leadership is an important part of this and headteachers have a key role. If we are going to develop a successful economy, headteachers must be trained and enthused to help us deliver it. That is why my party and I support the idea of delegating responsibility to schools through delegated budgets. That, in many ways, enables schools to understand the importance of economy. How they operate leads to an appreciation of how that is an important way in which the country operates.
Gwelsom oll yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn yr Alban. Unwaith eto, mae hynny yn rhoi’r argraff y gwerthfawrogir athrawon yn fwy mewn rhannau eraill o Brydain a bod Cymru yn mynd ar ei hôl hi o bosibl. Rhaid inni herio’r amgyffrediad hwnnw am fod perygl y caiff ei wireddu o safbwynt yr anawsterau wrth recriwtio pobl i fod yn athrawon. Mae arweinyddiaeth yn rhan bwysig o hyn ac mae rôl allweddol i benaethiaid. Er mwyn datblygu economi lwyddiannus, rhaid hyfforddi a thanio brwdfrydedd penaethiaid i’n cynorthwyo i gyflwyno hynny. Dyna pam fy mod i a’m plaid yn cefnogi’r syniad o ddirprwyo cyfrifoldeb i ysgolion drwy gyllidebau dirprwyedig. Mae hynny, mewn sawl ffordd, yn galluogi ysgolion i ddeall pa mor bwysig yw’r economi. Mae’r ffordd y gweithredant hwy yn arwain at werthfawrogiad o sut y mae hynny yn ffordd bwysig o weithredu i’r wlad.
On my concern about Wales falling behind, I approve of many things that the Minister mentioned today. However, I cannot help but think that many of those things are not in advance of what is happening in England and Scotland. Jonathan also mentioned that. In many ways, we are lagging behind them. That reinforces the perception that Wales is not as successful as other countries. I have been involved in economic development, in its different forms, for 20 or 30 years. During that time, I have learnt that the absolute key for every aspect of it is an education system in Wales that is effective and focused on the end product, which is an economically successful Wales.
Ynghylch fy mhryder am Gymru yn mynd ar ei hôl hi, cymeradwyaf lawer o’r pethau a grybwyllodd y Gweinidog heddiw. Fodd bynnag, dof i’r casgliad bod llawer o’r pethau hynny ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Soniodd Jonathan hefyd am hynny. Mewn sawl ffordd, yr ydym ar ei hôl hi. Mae hynny’n cryfhau’r amgyffrediad nad yw Cymru mor llwyddiannus â gwledydd eraill. Bûm yn ymwneud â datblygu economaidd, o ryw fath neu’i gilydd, ers 20 neu 30 mlynedd. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, dysgais mai’r allwedd hanfodol ar gyfer pob agwedd ar hynny yw system addysg yng Nghymru sydd yn effeithiol ac yn canolbwyntio ar y nod terfynol, sef Cymru sydd yn ffynnu’n economaidd.
I refute Cynog’s comments about the Minister giving way on grants for graduate primary teacher trainees. It is not a case of giving way, but of England undertaking a pilot scheme and of Wales having different needs. There was not a shortage of primary teachers last year, but there would have been in the near future now that England has adopted a longer-term scheme offering allowances to graduate teachers. There would have been a drain to the English colleges.
Gwrthodaf sylwadau Cynog am y Gweinidog yn ildio ar grantiau i’r rhai sydd yn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ysgolion cynradd. Nid mater o ildio mohono. Y gwir yw bod Lloegr yn cynnal cynllun peilot ac mae i Gymru anghenion gwahanol. Ni fu prinder athrawon ysgol gynradd y llynedd, ond byddai prinder wedi bod yn y dyfodol agos ar ôl i Loegr fabwysiadu cynllun tymor hwy sydd yn cynnig lwfans i athrawon graddedig. Byddai hynny wedi arwain at lif o bobl yn mynd i golegau yn Lloegr.
In response to Jonathan Morgan, the principle has not changed. Had we not addressed the current needs, which our Minister is now doing, there would have been a drain to the English colleges, so I do not see a problem. On William Graham’s amendment, the Minister has already criticised his selective use of words, but why is there an obsession, as Huw Lewis has said many times, to remove the child from the equation of the performance management framework? I cannot see what is wrong with measuring success, when it is there, but taking steps to help improve the results when there are problems, and using that to help the teachers in their development. Jonathan also criticised Wales, or the Labour administration, for causing Wales to lag behind England in certain areas. However, who delayed our teachers in Wales accessing their £2,000 under the performance management scheme? It was his party—the Conservative Party—Plaid Cymru and, I must say, the Liberal Democrats led by the National Union of Teachers. That is the first time that I have known a trade union to do something to stop its members accessing £2,000. Much progress has been made on the ‘Betterwales.com’ targets. Let us be proud of our commitment, namely Welsh Labour’s commitments—the true party of Wales—to raise the standards and professional development of teachers in Wales.
I ymateb i Jonathan Morgan, ni newidiodd yr egwyddor. Pe na baem wedi mynd i’r afael â’r anghenion presennol, fel y mae ein Gweinidog yn ei wneud yn awr, byddai llif o bobl yn mynd i golegau yn Lloegr, felly ni welaf fod problem. O ran gwelliant William Graham, mae’r Gweinidog eisoes wedi beirniadu ei ddefnydd dethol o eiriau, ond pam bod obsesiwn, fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis droeon, i anwybyddu’r plentyn yn y fframwaith rheoli perfformiad? Ni allaf weld beth sydd o’i le ar fesur llwyddiant, pan fo yno, ond cymryd camau i gynorthwyo i wella’r canlyniadau pa fo problemau, a defnyddio hynny i gynorthwyo athrawon i ddatblygu. Yn ogystal, beirniadodd Jonathan Gymru, neu’r weinyddiaeth Lafur, am beri i Gymru i fynd ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â Lloegr mewn rhai meysydd. Fodd bynnag, pwy a barodd yr oedi cyn bod ein hathrawon yng Nghymru yn gallu gwneud cais am £2,000 o dan y cynllun rheoli perfformiad? Ei blaid ef—y Blaid Geidwadol—Plaid Cymru a, rhaid imi ddweud, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o dan arweiniad Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon. Dyna’r tro cyntaf imi glywed am undeb llafur yn cymryd camau i atal ei aelodau rhag cael cyfle i wneud cais am £2,000. Gwnaethpwyd llawer o gynnydd ar dargedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Gadewch inni ymfalchïo yn ein hymrwymiad, sef ymrwymiadau Llafur Cymru—gwir blaid Cymru—i godi’r safonau a datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon yng Nghymru.
Datganaf fuddiant fel athro cofrestredig. Trafodaf yn fyr dri angen sylfaenol ar gyfer hyrwyddo datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon. Dechreuaf gyda’r deunydd crai. Y mae’n bwysig ein bod yn denu myfyrwyr i gyrsiau athrawon, ond yr ydym yn gwneud hynny yn y ffordd anghywir. Dywedodd Mick Bates nad oedd prinder athrawon yng Nghymru a’n bod wedi cytuno i dalu’r arian. Wrth gwrs, byddwn yn talu’r arian y flwyddyn nesaf, ond ni fyddwn yn ei dalu eleni. Yr hyn sydd o’i le yw’r ddelwedd a’r canfyddiad negyddol y mae hyn yn eu creu.
I declare an interest as a registered teacher. I will discuss briefly three basic needs for the promotion of the professional development of teachers. I begin with the raw material. It is important that we attract students to teaching courses, but we are doing so in the wrong way. Mick Bates said that there was not a shortage of teachers in Wales and that we had agreed to pay the money. Of course, we will pay it next year, but we will not be paying it this year. The problem is the negative image and perception of devolution that this creates.
Mae Lloegr yn sicrhau bod ei myfyrwyr yn derbyn £6,000 os dilynant gwrs hyfforddi athrawon cynradd yn ein colegau. Nid yw myfyrwyr Cymru yn derbyn yr arian hwnnw. Bydd Senedd yr Alban yn sicrhau bod myfyrwyr ac athrawon yn derbyn mwy o arian. O ganlyniad, ceir delwedd gadarnhaol o’r Alban a Lloegr—
England ensures that its students receive £6,000 if they undertake primary teacher training courses in our colleges. Students from Wales do not receive that money. The Scottish Parliament will ensure that students and teachers receive more money. As a result, there is a positive image of Scotland and England—
Huw Lewis a gododd—
Huw Lewis rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 77
A dderbyniwch ymyriad gan Huw Lewis?
Will you take an intervention by Huw Lewis?
Dim diolch. Yr wyf wedi clywed y cwbl o’r blaen.
No thank you. I have heard it all before.
Yr ydym yn creu delwedd negyddol ac anffodus o Gymru.
We are creating a negative and unfortunate image of Wales.
Edrychwn at Edwina, er nad ydyw yma ar hyn o bryd. Dim ond £300,000 sydd ei angen i sicrhau bod myfyrwyr sydd ar eu blwyddyn gyntaf o gwrs hyfforddi athrawon cynradd yn derbyn £6,000 yr un. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod gan Edwina yr arian hwnnw wrth law. Dylai ddefnyddio’r arian sydd yn y coffrau a sicrhau bod myfyrwyr yn ei dderbyn. Dychmygwch petaech yn fyfyriwr ifanc nad ydyw’n derbyn yr arian, tra bo eich cyd-fyfyrwyr yn Lloegr yn ei dderbyn. Mae’n warthus bod y weinyddiaeth yn gwneud i Gymru ymddangos mor gyndyn ac amharod yn y materion hyn.
We look to Edwina, although she is not present at the moment. Only £300,000 is required to ensure that students who are in their first year of a primary teacher training course receive £6,000 each. I am sure that Edwina has that money to hand. She should dip into the coffers and ensure that students receive it. Imagine if you were a young student not receiving the money, while your fellow students in England receive it. It is appalling that the administration makes Wales appear so miserly and backward in these matters.
Yn ail, ystyriaf y gwasanaeth hyfforddiant mewn swydd ac ymgynghori. Hyd at 1995, yr oedd wyth sir yng Nghymru, a chan bob un ohonynt wasanaeth ymgynghori llawn ar gyfer athrawon ac yn cynnal cyrsiau o’r fath. Erbyn heddiw, mae gennym 22 o siroedd, ac nid oes gan unrhyw un ohonynt wasanaeth tebyg. Yr ydym wedi cymryd cam yn ôl. Rhaid inni gydnabod mai dim ond sgerbwd sydd gennym bellach o’r gwasanaeth hyfforddi athrawon a oedd gennym cyn 1995. Siaradai Jane yn gynharach fel pe baem yn gwneud rhywbeth arbennig o dda a blaengar ac fel pe bai pethau’n gwella. Nid felly y mae hi. Mae’r gwasanaeth hyfforddiant sydd gennym yn awr yn waeth nag erioed o’r blaen.
Secondly, I will consider the INSET training and advisory service. Up until 1995, there were eight counties in Wales, and each one had a full advisory service for teachers and held such courses. Today, we have 22 counties and none of them have a similar service. We have taken a step backwards. We must accept that, by now, we only have a skeleton teacher training service compared to that which we had prior to 1995. Jane spoke earlier as if we were doing something wonderful and innovative and as if matters were improving. It is not so. The training service that we currently have is worse than ever before.
Yn ddiweddar, yr ydym wedi cael gwared ar bron pob cyfarwyddwr addysg yng Nghymru. Arferem gael cyfarwyddwr addysg penodedig yn arwain adrannau addysg ym mhob sir. Erbyn hyn, mae gennym brif swyddogion sydd yn gweinyddu addysg, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac yn y blaen. Mae’r gwasanaeth yn rhacs. Mae’n deneuach o lawer na’r hyn ydoedd. Mae’n wasanaeth ceiniog a dimai. Os digwyddwch fod mewn ysgol Gymraeg yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru, lle caiff 25,000 o blant eu haddysg, nid oes unrhyw ymgynghorwyr Cymraeg eu hiaith a all fynd i fewn i’r ysgolion, ar wahân i ymgynghorydd y Gymraeg fel pwnc, i gynorthwyo’r plant a’r athrawon. Maent yn gorfod derbyn gwasanaeth Saesneg. Yr oedd y sefyllfa’n well cyn 1995. Rhaid inni sylweddoli ein bod yn mynd tuag yn ôl yn hyn o beth, Jane, a gwneud rhywbeth amdano. Galwn arnoch i gefnogi’r galw am adolygiad cynhwysfawr o’r gyfundrefn ymgynghori a threfniadau ar gyfer hyfforddiant mewn swydd.
Recently, we have got rid of almost every director of education in Wales. We used to have a specific director of education leading departments of education in every county. By now, we have chief officers who administer education, social services and so on. The service is a shambles. It is much more thinly spread than it was. It is a poorer service. If you happen to be in a Welsh-medium school in south-east Wales, where 25,000 children are educated, there are no Welsh-speaking advisers who can go into the schools, apart from the Welsh language adviser, to help the children and the teachers. They have to receive an English service. The situation was better prior to 1995. We must realise that we are moving backwards in this respect, Jane, and do something about it. We call upon you to support the demand for a comprehensive review of the advisory system and arrangements for INSET training.
Yn olaf, fe ystyriaf dâl ar sail perfformiad. Yn ei hanfod, mae hwn yn gynllun gwirion. Y bobl a fydd ar eu hennill yn hyn o beth yw’r athrawon sydd yn dysgu’r ffrydiau gorau a’r rhai sydd yn dysgu yn yr ysgolion gorau. Bydd yr athrawon eraill yn dioddef. Yr ydym yn gwybod hynny cyn dechrau ar y cynllun hwn. Mae’r rheini ohonom sydd yn cofio’r arholiad 11+ yn gwybod bod gan rai ysgolion enw da am sicrhau bod plant yn llwyddo yn yr ysgoloriaeth ac yn mynd ymlaen i’r ysgol uwchradd. Yr oedd ysgolion eraill, gyda deunydd gwaeth, na lwyddent i wneud hynny. Dyna beth yr ydych yn ei wneud yn awr. Byddwch yn creu ysgolion da ac ysgolion gwael. Byddwch yn creu awyrgylch gwael mewn ysgolion da, hyd yn oed, lle caiff yr athrawon sydd yn dysgu’r ffrydiau da godiad cyflog, ond lle na chaiff y rhai sydd yn dysgu’r dosbarthiadau gwael godiad cyflog. Bydd hynny’n arbennig o wir mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig. Caiff egwyddorion megis cynhwysiant a chyfle cyfartal eu hanwybyddu’n llwyr wrth dderbyn y cynllun talu athrawon yn ôl perfformiad. Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru ffordd bell i fynd os ydyw am sefydlu cyfundrefn addysg gyfiawn, neilltuol a blaengar a fydd yn magu balchder a hyder yn ein plant.
Finally, I will consider performance-related pay. This is, in essence, a ridiculous scheme. The people who will gain from this are the teachers who teach the best streams and those who teach in the best schools. The other teachers will suffer. We know that before embarking on this scheme. Those of us who remember the 11+ examination know that some schools had a good reputation for ensuring that children succeeded in the scholarship and went on to secondary school. There were other schools, which had worse material, which did not succeed in doing so. That is what you are doing now. You will create good schools and bad schools. You will create a bad atmosphere even in good schools, where the teachers who teach the good streams receive a pay rise, but those who teach the poor classes do not. That will be especially true in deprived areas. Principles such as inclusivity and equality of opportunity are completely ignored in accepting the scheme to pay teachers according to performance. The Government of Wales has a long way to go if it wants to establish a just, specific and innovative education system that will nurture pride and confidence in our children.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
Before I call Brian Gibbons, I inform Members that I will call the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning at 4.55 p.m. so that we can proceed with the statement on Alder Hey immediately following the vote.
Cyn i mi alw Brian Gibbons, hysbysaf yr Aelodau y byddaf yn galw ar y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes am 4.55 p.m. fel y gallwn fwrw ymlaen â’r datganiad ar Alder Hey yn union wedi’r bleidlais.
It would be inappropriate in a debate on teachers’ performance not to make a brief reference to the successes in the Neath Port Talbot local education authority area. If we believe the propaganda from some of the political parties in this Chamber, it is one of the high spending, profligate local authorities. We all know that the likely performance of a school will be determined by the social affluence of its catchment population. Statistics released recently by the statistical directorate of the National Assembly largely confirms that. If we correlate school performance with the uptake of the provision of free school meals, there is a strong link between the performance and the level of free school meals that are given. However, in Neath Port Talbot, that is not the case. Twenty five per cent of pupils in Neath Port Talbot are eligible for free school meals and on the basis of the directorate’s projections, we would expect a 33 per cent success level of A-C grades at GCSE level. In fact, in Port Talbot, we achieve 45 per cent plus in our GCSE achievements. I am sure that is only possible because of the commitment and loyalty of the teachers in the Neath Port Talbot area and the encouragement that they receive from the local education authority. The level of achievement and success that the teachers and the local authority have achieved is a sign of the added value that they are giving to the educational opportunities of the students in that area. For that reason alone, teachers in Neath Port Talbot deserve the extra supplement, benefit and remuneration, which is being outlined in this particular package today.
Byddai’n amhriodol mewn dadl ar berfformiad athrawon i beidio â chyfeirio’n fyr at lwyddiannau ardal awdurdod addysg lleol Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Os credwn y propaganda gan rai o’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yn y Siambr hon, mae’n un o’r awdurdodau lleol afradlon sydd yn gwario llawer. Gwyddom oll y pennir perfformiad tebygol ysgol gan gyfoeth cymdeithasol poblogaeth ei dalgylch. Cadarnha ystadegau a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar gan gyfarwyddiaeth ystadegol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hynny i raddau helaeth. Os cyfatebwn berfformiad ysgolion â nifer y prydau bwyd ysgol am ddim yno, ceir cysylltiad cryf rhwng y perfformiad a lefel y prydau bwyd ysgol am ddim a roddir. Fodd bynnag, yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, nid dyna’r sefyllfa. Mae 25 y cant o’r disgyblion yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot yn gymwys i gael prydau bwyd ysgol am ddim ac ar sail blaenamcanion y gyfarwyddiaeth, byddem yn disgwyl lefel llwyddiant o 33 y cant ar raddau A-C ar lefel TGAU. Mewn gwirionedd ym Mhort Talbot, cyrhaeddwn dros 45 y cant o ran cyraeddiadau TGAU. Yr wyf yn sicr mai dim ond oherwydd ymrwymiad a theyrngarwch yr athrawon yn ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot y mae hyn yn bosibl a’r anogaeth a gânt gan yr awdurdod addysg lleol. Mae lefel y cyflawniad a’r llwyddiant a gyflawnodd yr athrawon a’r awdurdod lleol yn arwydd o’r gwerth ychwanegol a roddant ar gyfleoedd addysgol y myfyrwyr yn yr ardal honno. Am y rheswm hwnnw’n unig, haedda’r athrawon yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot yr ychwanegiad, y budd a’r gydnabyddiaeth ariannol, a amlinellir yn y pecyn penodol hwn heddiw.
Nid oes neb yn gwadu na ddylai athrawon yr ardal honno a phob athro arall dderbyn y cyflog ychwanegol. Bydd athrawon yr Alban yn derbyn cyflog ychwanegol sylweddol yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf. Fodd bynnag, ni all Brian Gibbons ddadlau ei bod yn bosibl penderfynu pa gysylltiad yn union sydd rhwng perfformiad da’r plant a pherfformiad yr athrawon. Dyna’r broblem, a bydd hynny yn sicr o greu anghyfiawnder wrth geisio mesur y cysylltiad hwnnw a’i adlewyrchu yn lefel y cyflog. Bydd athrawon mewn ardaloedd eraill yn dioddef anghyfiawnder mawr oherwydd yr ymdrech i greu’r cysylltiad hwnnw.
No one refutes the fact that teachers in that area and every other teacher should get the additional payments. Teachers in Scotland will receive substantial additional payments in the coming years. However, Brian Gibbons cannot argue that it is possible to decide what specific link exists between the good performance of the children and the performance of the teachers. That is the problem and measuring the link, and reflecting it in the pay levels will certainly create injustice. Teachers in other areas will suffer great injustice because of the effort to create this link.
There may be a grey area in this argument, but in the comprehensive school of which I have been a governor for the last 15 years and more, there is undoubtedly good and bad performance. Where good and dedicated performance is provided, we must remunerate. We must not—as Huw Lewis has said on many occasions—reward people who do not put the children first and do not deliver for them. In Neath Port Talbot, and in my local comprehensive school, teachers are making a dedicated, outstanding contribution to the children’s education and they should be rewarded. Failure and lack of dedication should not be rewarded if we put the children as the first interest of our educational system.
Efallai fod rhan aneglur i’r ddadl hon, ond yn yr ysgol gyfun y bûm i’n llywodraethwr ynddi am y 15 mlynedd diwethaf neu fwy, yn ddiamau ceir perfformiad da a gwael. Pan ddarperir perfformiad da ac ymroddedig, rhaid inni roi cydnabyddiaeth ariannol. Rhaid inni beidio—fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis ar lawer achlysur—â gwobrwyo pobl nad ydynt yn rhoi’r plant yn gyntaf ac nad ydynt yn cyflawni dim drostynt. Yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, ac yn fy ysgol gyfun leol, mae athrawon yn gwneud cyfraniad ymroddedig, neilltuol i addysg y plant a dylid eu gwobrwyo. Ni ddylid gwobrwyo methiant a diffyg ymroddiad os rhown y plant fel prif fuddiant ein system addysgol.
Finally, many children are leaving the education system with no qualifications at all. Neath Port Talbot is one of the best performing local authorities in terms of the number of children who leave school without qualifications. Only 1.2 per cent leave full-time education in the country with no qualifications. That is one of the best statistics in Wales. The teachers are delivering in Neath and Port Talbot. I am glad that the local authority is investing in education on behalf of our children—
Yn olaf, mae llawer o blant yn gadael y system addysg heb unrhyw gymwysterau o gwbl. Castell-nedd Port Talbot yw un o’r awdurdodau lleol sydd yn perfformio orau o ran nifer y plant sydd yn gadael ysgol heb gymwysterau. Dim ond 1.2 y cant sydd yn gadael addysg amser llawn yn y sir heb unrhyw gymwysterau. Dyna un o’r ystadegau gorau yng Nghymru. Mae’r athrawon yn cyflawni yng Nghastell-nedd a Phort Talbot. Yr wyf yn falch bod yr awdurdod lleol yn buddsoddi mewn addysg ar ran ein plant—
Is Brian suggesting that teachers in Neath Port Talbot should be paid more than teachers in other Welsh counties because Neath Port Talbot is achieving this level of success?
A awgryma Brian y dylid talu mwy i athrawon yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot nag yn siroedd eraill Cymru am fod Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn cyflawni’r lefel hon o lwyddiant?
There was a time in parts of Neath Port Talbot when the number of students entering GCSE examinations was the same as the number of students that now pass the examinations. That to me was a sign of the failure of the educational system for those pupils. Thank heavens the situation has changed. There is now a fair system for our children. The Welsh Labour Party will reward the teachers who have delivered for our children.
Bu adeg mewn rhannau o Gastell-nedd Port Talbot pan roedd nifer y myfyrwyr a eisteddai arholiadau TGAU yr un â nifer y myfyrwyr sydd erbyn hyn yn pasio’r arholiadau. Yr oedd hynny i mi yn arwydd o fethiant y system addysgol ar gyfer y disgyblion hynny. Diolch i’r nefoedd bod y sefyllfa honno wedi newid. Erbyn hyn mae system deg ar gyfer ein plant. Bydd Plaid Lafur Cymru yn gwobrwyo’r athrawon a gyflawnodd dros ein plant.
Thank you, Llywydd, for calling me to contribute to this debate. I appreciate that there are time constraints.
Diolch, Lywydd, am alw arnaf i gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Sylweddolaf fod cyfyngiadau o ran amser.
I want to underline the point that teaching is a profession and that all professionals need to develop their skills from the time that they qualify. This is by no means a criticism of teachers’ skills and the activities that they follow. This speech is meant to be a positive contribution, in which I will share experiences from the private sector that could be incorporated into the education sector.
Hoffwn danlinellu’r pwynt mai proffesiwn yw dysgu a bod angen i bob gweithiwr proffesiynol ddatblygu eu sgiliau o’r adeg y cymhwysant. Nid yw hyn ar unrhyw gyfrif yn feirniadaeth o sgiliau’r athrawon a’r gweithgareddau a ddilynant. Bwriedir i’r araith hon fod yn gyfraniad cadarnhaol, a byddaf yn rhannu profiadau o’r sector preifat y gellid eu hymgorffori i’r sector addysg.
I want to reflect on my time as an employee of a high street bank. On one occasion, I was in a training and development role for bank managers and staff. The bank realised that the needs of customers and staff had evolved from 20 or 30 years previously. That is similar to education. The needs of pupils and staff, as a result of changes in pupil patterns, have also evolved. The training and professional development of teachers need to reflect those changes.
Hoffwn fyfyrio ar fy amser i fel gweithiwr mewn un o fanciau’r stryd fawr. Ar un achlysur, yr oeddwn mewn rôl hyfforddi a datblygu ar gyfer rheolwyr banc a’r staff. Sylweddolodd y banc fod anghenion y cwsmeriaid a’r staff wedi datblygu ers yr 20 neu’r 30 mlynedd blaenorol. Mae hynny’n debyg i addysg. Datblygodd anghenion y disgyblion a’r staff hefyd o ganlyniad i newidiadau o ran patrymau disgyblion. Mae angen i hyfforddiant a datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon adlewyrchu’r newidiadau hynny.
One of the methods that the bank adopted was to focus on coaching and observation, so that it could develop the skills of a bank manager as an interviewer to satisfy the needs of customers and to help them appreciate the range of services available. I am not saying that running a bank is the same as running an education system, but there are correlations. I want to advocate that there were many bank managers who accepted the observation of an interview positively. As a result, they became the most successful managers in a relatively short period of time. On the other hand, there were some managers who were defensive. They felt that they were being inspected and that the coaching and feedback session was questioning their judgment in terms of lending decisions and in how they conducted their duties. It was often a relative newcomer to the organisation that observed them, after they had run a bank for 20 or 30 years or more in some instances. However, the managers that developed and made a difference to the service that was provided to customers were those who accepted the feedback positively. I want to underline that point to the Minister. Coaching, development and observation could be one of the possible ways forward in terms of supporting the professional development of teachers.
Un o’r dulliau a fabwysiadodd y banc oedd canolbwyntio ar hyfforddi ac arsylwi, fel y gallai ddatblygu sgiliau’r rheolwr banc fel cyfwelydd i fodloni anghenion y cwsmeriaid a’u cynorthwyo i werthfawrogi’r ystod o wasanaethau sydd ar gael. Nid wyf yn dweud bod rhedeg banc yr un fath â rhedeg system addysg, ond mae rhai pethau’n cyfateb. Hoffwn ddadlau fod llawer o reolwyr banc yn derbyn bod arsylwi cyfweliad yn rhywbeth cadarnhaol. O ganlyniad, daethant yn rheolwyr llwyddiannus iawn mewn cyfnod eithaf byr o amser. Ar y llaw arall, yr oedd rhai rheolwyr yn amddiffynnol. Teimlent eu bod yn cael eu harolygu a bod y sesiwn hyfforddi ac adborth yn cwestiynu eu barn yn nhermau argymell penderfyniadau ac yn y modd y cyflawnent eu dyletswyddau. Yn aml rhywun oedd yn weddol newydd i’r sefydliad fyddai’n eu harsylwi, ar ôl iddynt redeg banc am 20 neu 30 mlynedd neu fwy mewn rhai enghreifftiau. Fodd bynnag, y rheolwyr a ddatblygodd ac a wnaeth wahaniaeth i’r gwasanaeth a ddarparwyd i’r cwsmeriaid oedd y rheini a dderbyniodd yr adborth yn gadarnhaol. Hoffwn danlinellu’r pwynt hwnnw i’r Gweinidog. Efallai mai hyfforddi, datblygu ac arsylwi yw un o’r ffyrdd posibl ymlaen yn nhermau cefnogi datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon.
The financial services industry and lawyers, for example, are all measured by their continuing professional development and the amount of hours that they invest in such matters. I speak from experience in saying that that method is cumbersome. I do not advocate it. However, a balance can be struck in ensuring that the needs of teachers are met by coaching and observation in a positive way so that they can meet the demands of the pupils, not only to achieve higher standards of education in the league tables, but also to meet the social needs of children, which are different to what they were 30 years ago.
Caiff y diwydiant gwasanaethau ariannol a chyfreithwyr, er enghraifft, oll eu mesur yn ôl eu datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus a’r oriau a fuddsoddant mewn pethau o’r fath. Siaradaf o brofiad wrth ddweud bod y dull hwnnw yn llesteiriol. Ni siaradaf o’i blaid. Fodd bynnag, gellir taro cydbwysedd drwy sicrhau y bodlonir anghenion athrawon drwy hyfforddi ac arsylwi mewn dull cadarnhaol fel y gallant ddiwallu anghenion y disgyblion, nid er mwyn cyrraedd safonau addysg uwch yn y tablau cynghrair, ond hefyd i gwrdd ag anghenion cymdeithasol plant, sydd yn wahanol i’r hyn yr oeddent 30 mlynedd yn ôl.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 82
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
I pay tribute to the Members who have contributed to the debate. It is interesting that when we discuss the meat of Assembly business we see the quality of Members who contribute so many interesting ideas to the debate. I support Members in their call for professionalism and recognising teaching as a proper profession. That is why we are putting these measures in place. As a former teacher and, someone who needs to declare an interest as a registered teacher, I am keen to ensure that we properly support our schoolteachers from the beginning of their careers.
Talaf deyrnged i’r Aelodau a gyfrannodd i’r ddadl. Mae’n ddiddorol ein bod, wrth drafod busnes swmpus y Cynulliad, yn gweld ansawdd yr Aelodau a gyfranna gynifer o syniadau diddorol i’r ddadl. Cefnogaf yr Aelodau pan alwant am broffesiynoldeb a chydnabyddiaeth o ddysgu fel proffesiwn gwirioneddol. Dyna pam ein bod yn rhoi’r mesurau hyn yn eu lle. Fel cyn athrawes a rhywun y mae angen iddi ddatgan buddiant fel athrawes gofrestredig, yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau ein bod yn cefnogi ein hathrawon ysgol yn gywir o gychwyn eu gyrfaoedd.
I will briefly pick up on some of the points raised in the debate. Jonathan, if the Conservatives were to speak on behalf of the National Assembly, there would be an outcry because you are not representative of the whole Assembly. You have fallen into that trap in relation to the National Union of Teachers’ press release about the General Teaching Council for Wales. Tomorrow, one hopes that the rebuttal from the General Teaching Council for Wales will be noted. It has stated that:
Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at rai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd yn y ddadl. Jonathan, pe bai’r Ceidwadwyr yn siarad ar ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, byddai banllef o brotest am nad ydych yn cynrychioli’r Cynulliad cyfan. Syrthiasoch i’r fagl honno mewn perthynas â datganiad Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon i’r wasg ynglŷn â Chyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru. Yfory, gobeithio y nodir y gwrthodiad gan Gyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru. Nododd:
‘The article in today’s The Western Mail does not stem from a General Teaching Council for Wales’ press release. The comments reported appear to originate from the NUT. The Council was not approached by The Western Mail to provide the quotes attributed to them in the notice.’
The Council then sent out its own press release, which at no point raises the issue of teacher recruitment. It is important that when we read stories in the press, we make sure of their source.
Anfonodd y Cyngor ei ddatganiad ei hun i’r wasg wedyn, ac nid yw’n codi mater recriwtio athrawon unwaith. Wrth ddarllen straeon yn y wasg, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau o ba ffynhonell y dônt.
You also asked for confirmation as to why we had moved the policy on training grants. Lorraine gave you the answer by pointing out that last year this was being piloted. It is about grants to tackle shortages. I am sure that everybody in this Chamber would agree that if we did not put the grants in place, for the further education and the primary sector, as well as the secondary sector this year, that would lead to shortages in Wales. It would lead to shortages in quality candidates, and it would put teacher training institutions at risk. I am not prepared, as Minister, to put our teacher training or higher education institutions at risk in that way.
Gofynasoch hefyd am ganiatâd pam y symudasom y polisi ar grantiau hyfforddi. Rhoddodd Lorraine yr ateb ichi drwy nodi bod hyn yn cael ei ragbrofi y llynedd. Mae’n ymwneud â grantiau i fynd i’r afael â diffygion. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunai pawb yn y Siambr hon pe na fyddem yn rhoi’r grantiau yn eu lle, ar gyfer y sector addysg bellach a’r sector cynradd, yn ogystal â’r sector uwchradd eleni, y byddai hynny’n arwain at ddiffygion yng Nghymru. Byddai’n arwain at brinder ymgeiswyr o ansawdd, a byddai’n rhoi sefydliadau hyfforddi athrawon mewn perygl. Nid wyf yn barod, fel Gweinidog, i beryglu ein sefydliadau hyfforddi athrawon neu addysg uwch yn y ffordd honno.
Owen John Thomas said that teacher training is in a shambles. I disagree. We have made extra investment into graduate teacher training programmes, for example. We are not only considering the traditional routes for teachers, but employer-based initiatives. Jonathan talked about me designing and improving performance management schemes. In my opening speech, I talked about the performance management framework that we are introducing. I am confident that the Committee will support the performance management framework, and we will bring it to David Blunkett’s attention in terms of the review.
Dywedodd Owen John Thomas fod hyfforddi athrawon mewn annhrefn. Anghytunaf. Gwnaethom fuddsoddiad ychwanegol yn y rhaglenni hyfforddi athrawon graddedig, er enghraifft. Ystyriwn nid yn unig y llwybrau traddodiadol ar gyfer athrawon, ond hefyd y mentrau gan gyflogwyr. Siaradodd Jonathan amdanaf yn cynllunio a gwella cynlluniau rheoli perfformiad. Yn fy araith agoriadol, siaradais am y fframwaith rheoli perfformiad a gyflwynwn. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y Pwyllgor yn cefnogi’r fframwaith rheoli perfformiad, a byddwn yn dod ag ef i sylw David Blunkett o safbwynt yr adolygiad.
I agree with Cynog’s suggestions about an evidence base, and about talking to organisations such as the University Council for the Education of Teachers. It is important that we have a better evidence base in Wales. When I became Minister, I was surprised to find that the Assembly had commissioned much valuable evidence from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate for Education and Training in Wales, for example, which is not coming into the public domain in an appropriate way. I hope that we will talk in future about how that evidence can help us in Committee as well as helping myself, as Minister, to make evidence-based policy. However, Estyn is not the only organisation involved. All those organisation in Wales that have an interest in providing us with an evidence base are welcome to bring that evidence to the Assembly.
Cytunaf ag awgrymiadau Cynog ynghylch sail tystiolaeth, ac ynglŷn â siarad â sefydliadau fel Cyngor y Brifysgol ar gyfer Addysgu Athrawon. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym sail tystiolaeth gwell yng Nghymru. Pan ddeuthum yn Weinidog, fe’m synnwyd i ganfod bod y Cynulliad wedi comisiynu llawer o dystiolaeth werthfawr gan Gyfarwyddiaeth Ei Mawrhydi ar gyfer Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, nad yw’n dod yn eiddo cyhoeddus yn y dull priodol. Gobeithiaf y siaradwn yn y dyfodol am y modd y gall y dystiolaeth honno ein cynorthwyo mewn Pwyllgorau yn ogystal â chynorthwyo fy hunan, fel Gweinidog, i lunio polisïau ar sail tystiolaeth. Fodd bynnag, nid Estyn yw’r unig sefydliad sydd yn ymwneud â hyn. Mae croeso i’r holl sefydliadau hynny yng Nghymru sydd â diddordeb mewn darparu sail tystiolaeth ar ein cyfer ddod â’r dystiolaeth honno i’r Cynulliad.
I turn to the National College for School Leadership. We are in close contact with it. We want to include its talking heads programme in our—
Trof at y Coleg Cenedlaethol ar gyfer Arweinyddiaeth Ysgolion. Yr ydym mewn cysylltiad agos ag ef. Yr ydym am gynnwys ei raglen o bennau parablus yn ein—
Brian Hancock a gododd—
Brian Hancock rose—
I do not have time to give way, I am afraid, because the Presiding Officer has requested a short speech from me. I assure Members that we want headteachers in Wales to have a close relationship with that college.
Nid oes gennyf amser i ildio, mae arnaf ofn, am fod y Llywydd wedi gofyn i mi draddodi araith fer. Sicrhaf yr Aelodau ein bod am i benaethiaid ysgolion yng Nghymru gael perthynas agos â’r coleg hwnnw.
I welcome what Alun said about mentors. We want a closer relationship between education and business and also to consider ways that the Assembly can suggest mentors to help people at different stages of their professional career. We have seen that work successfully in many public and private institutions and we need to learn from those successes.
Croesawaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun am fentoriaid. Yr ydym am gael perthynas agosach rhwng addysg a busnes a hefyd ystyried ffyrdd y gall y Cynulliad awgrymu mentoriaid i gynorthwyo pobl ar wahanol gyfnodau o’u gyrfa broffesiynol. Gwelsom hynny’n gweithio’n llwyddiannus mewn llawer o sefydliadau cyhoeddus a phreifat ac mae angen inni ddysgu o’r llwyddiannau hynny.
On Mick’s point on the further education sector, we should be concerned if any sector is seen as a Cinderella service in the delivery of an important agenda such as education. Tomorrow, in Committee, we will consider, for example, a new forward work programme, and I will be keen to see that we undertake a review of the further education sector in the same way that we will undertake a review of the higher education sector. [Interruption.]
O ran pwynt Mick ar y sector addysg bellach, dylem fod yn bryderus os gwelir unrhyw sector fel rhyw fath o wasanaeth Ulw-Ela wrth gyflwyno agenda bwysig fel addysg. Yfory, yn y Pwyllgor, byddwn yn ystyried, er enghraifft, flaenraglen waith newydd, a byddaf yn awyddus i sicrhau y cynhaliwn adolygiad o’r sector addysg bellach yn yr un modd ag y cynhaliwn adolygiad o’r sector addysg uwch. [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
Order. I know that the Minister is capable of looking after herself, but I would like more quiet.
Trefn. Gwn fod y Gweinidog yn alluog i edrych ar ôl ei hun, ond hoffwn gael rhagor o dawelwch.
That would be to ensure that we recognise the current issues in the further education sector. It is an important sector in the delivery of our post-16 education agenda.
Byddai hynny er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cydnabod y materion cyfredol yn y sector addysg bellach. Mae’n sector pwysig wrth inni gyflwyno ein hagenda addysg ôl-16.
I am grateful that Pauline raised GEST today. We have had long discussions about it in Committee. Pauline is as aware as every other member of the Committee that we are looking to change the requirements for GEST to consider deprivation issues more appropriately. We will bring proposals forward on that.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar fod Pauline wedi codi GEST heddiw. Cawsom drafodaethau maith amdano yn y Pwyllgor. Mae Pauline, fel pob aelod arall o’r Pwyllgor, yn ymwybodol ein bod yn edrych am ffordd i wella’r gofynion ar gyfer GEST i roi sylw i faterion amddifadedd yn fwy priodol. Byddwn yn cyflwyno cynigion ar hynny.
Finally, we want to support our teaching force in Wales, to enhance its status and improve its professionalism. I say to Members that when we consider the threshold payments, for example, pupil progress is only a part of the assessment. We want our teachers to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of teaching and assessment issues, that they have wider professional effectiveness and can motivate our children. From the results in Wales, we know that they can do that. We now want to recognise them properly, in such a way that everyone in Wales recognises that teaching is a profession, and is supported in full by all of us in the Assembly.
Yn olaf, yr ydym am gefnogi ein cyflenwad o athrawon yng Nghymru, gwella eu statws a gwella eu proffesiynoldeb. Dywedaf wrth yr Aelodau, pan ystyriwn y taliadau trothwy, er enghraifft, dim ond rhan o’r asesiad yw cynnydd disgyblion. Yr ydym am i’n hathrawon ddangos gwybodaeth a dealltwriaeth o faterion addysgu ac asesu, bod ganddynt effeithiolrwydd proffesiynol ehangach ac y gallant ysgogi ein plant. O’r canlyniadau yng Nghymru, gwyddom y gallant wneud hynny. Yr ydym yn awr am eu cydnabod yn gywir, yn y fath ddull fel bod pawb yng Nghymru yn cydnabod bod dysgu yn broffesiwn a bod pawb ohonom yn y Cynulliad yn ei gefnogi.
Gwelliant 1 Cynog Dafis t. 85
Amendment 1 Cynog Dafis p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 Cynog Dafis t. 85
Amendment 2 Cynog Dafis p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 Jonathan Morgan t. 86
Amendment 3 Jonathan Morgan p. 86
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 Cynog Dafis t. 87
Amendment 4 Cynog Dafis p. 87
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Cynog Dafis t. 87
Amendment 5 Cynog Dafis p. 87
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 3 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (3)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
Tynnwyd gwelliant 6 yn ôl.
Amendment 6 withdrawn.
Gwelliant 7 Cynog Dafis t. 88
Amendment 7 Cynog Dafis p. 88
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 53 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (53)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
- Andrew Davies
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Jane Davidson t. 89
Amended motion Jane Davidson p. 89
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 23
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Datganiad ar Ysbyty Alder Hey
Statement on Alder Hey Hospital
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 90
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90
I begin by expressing my deep sympathies and strong regrets with regard to those families that have suffered such enormous pain and distress following the discovery that their children’s organs had been retained at Alder Hey hospital. The report of events at Alder Hey and the inquiry into them has had a huge impact, not only on the parents of young children, but also the bereaved families of adults where post-mortem examination was required. This is why we must ensure that this can never happen again.
Dechreuaf drwy fynegi fy nghydymdeimlad dwys a’m tristwch mawr o ran y teuluoedd hynny sydd wedi dioddef cymaint o boen a gofid yn sgîl y darganfyddiad bod ysbyty Alder Hey wedi cadw organau eu plant. Cafodd yr adroddiad ar y digwyddiadau yn Alder Hey a’r ymchwiliad iddynt effaith fawr, nid yn unig ar rieni plant bach, ond hefyd ar y teuluoedd a gollodd oedolion lle yr oedd angen cynnal archwiliad post-mortem. Dyna pam bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau na all hyn fyth ddigwydd eto.
As Assembly Members will know, these events have a particular Welsh dimension, with many families from north Wales directly involved, as Karen has said. Since the practices at Alder Hey became public, Assembly officials have been in contact with the Department of Health and the north west regional office of the NHS in England to ensure that those parents in north Wales known to have been affected by the events at Alder Hey, where they have expressed the wish to be kept informed, have received the offer of a confidential briefing and the opportunity to read the report shortly prior to publication. There will be other families who have not come to our notice. Our sympathy is with them also. I have arranged for NHS Direct in Wales to be available as a helpline for any relative in Wales worried by the reports that the inquiry will generate and who wish to obtain more information. Where a response is needed from a trust, NHS Direct will ask each chief executive personally to contact the relative concerned.
Fel y gŵyr Aelodau’r Cynulliad, mae dimensiwn Cymreig penodol i’r digwyddiadau hyn, gan fod llawer o’r teuluoedd yn dod o ogledd Cymru, fel y dywedodd Karen. Ers i arferion Alder Hey gael eu cyhoeddi, bu swyddogion y Cynulliad mewn cysylltiad â’r Adran Iechyd a swyddfa ranbarthol yr NHS yng ngogledd orllewin Lloegr i sicrhau y cafodd y rhieni hynny yng ngogledd Cymru, y gwyddys iddynt gael eu heffeithio gan y digwyddiadau yn Alder Hey, lle y mynegasant eu bod yn awyddus i gael y newyddion diweddaraf, y cynnig i gael cyfarfod briffio cyfrinachol a’r cyfle i ddarllen yr adroddiad ychydig cyn iddo gael ei gyhoeddi. Bydd teuluoedd eraill nad ydynt wedi dod i’n sylw. Cydymdeimlwn â hwy hefyd. Trefnais fod NHS Direct yng Nghymru ar gael fel llinell gymorth ar gyfer unrhyw berthynas yng Nghymru sydd yn poeni am y straeon y bydd yr ymchwiliad yn eu creu ac sydd yn dymuno cael mwy o wybodaeth. Lle bydd angen ymateb gan ymddiriedolaeth, bydd NHS Direct yn gofyn i bob prif weithredwr gysylltu’n bersonol â’r perthynas hwnnw.
Against that background I welcome and strongly support the proposed change in the law announced by the Secretary of State for Health, Alan Milburn, during his statement to the House of Commons this afternoon. I also welcome his announcement of a commission to advise the NHS on the proper cataloguing, storage and return, if they wish, to relatives of human material retained. I intend to ask the Secretary of State for Health that the commission also advises the NHS in Wales.
Yn erbyn y cefndir hwnnw, croesawaf a chefnogaf yn gryf y newid arfaethedig yn y gyfraith a gyhoeddwyd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd, Alan Milburn, yn ystod ei ddatganiad i Dŷ’r Cyffredin y prynhawn yma. Croesawaf hefyd ei gyhoeddiad y caiff comisiwn ei sefydlu i gynghori’r NHS ar y gwaith o gatalogio, storio a dychwelyd y deunydd dynol a gadwyd, os dymunant. Bwriadaf ofyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd a all y comisiwn gynghori’r NHS yng Nghymru hefyd.
The deplorable and unacceptable practices that took place at Alder Hey must never be repeated. I can confirm that strict guidelines have been issued to the health service in Wales regarding post-mortem examinations and the retention of organs, body parts or tissue samples. The guidance, which has also been issued in England, contains information about the procedures relating to post-mortem examinations, obtaining consent to the examination and the retention of organs, body parts or tissues, as well as their respectful disposal.
Rhaid sicrhau na fydd yr arferion alaethus ac annerbyniol a ddigwyddodd yn Alder Hey byth yn cael eu hailadrodd. Gallaf gadarnhau y cyhoeddwyd canllawiau llym i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru o ran archwiliadau post-mortem a chadw organau, rhannau o’r corff neu samplau o feinwe. Mae’r arweiniad, a gyhoeddwyd yn Lloegr hefyd, yn cynnwys gwybodaeth am y gweithdrefnau sydd yn ymwneud ag archwiliadau post-mortem, cael caniatâd i archwilio a chadw organau, rhannau o’r corff neu feinweoedd, ynghyd â sut i’w gwaredu gyda pharch.
At my request, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, Dr Ruth Hall, has also undertaken a survey of post-mortems and retention practices at all Welsh hospital trusts and that survey will be made available to Members. This has been a difficult and deeply upsetting matter. The NHS in Wales is ready to deal with the consequences in a respectful and sensitive way and to ensure that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated in the future.
Ar fy nghais i, ymgymerodd Prif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru, Dr Ruth Hall, ag arolwg o archwiliadau post-mortem ac arferion cadw ym mhob ymddiriedolaeth ysbyty yng Nghymru a bydd yr arolwg hwnnw ar gael i’r Aelodau. Bu hyn yn fater anodd sydd wedi peri tristwch mawr. Mae’r NHS yng Nghymru yn barod i ddelio â’r canlyniadau mewn ffordd sensitif a llawn parch ac i sicrhau na chaiff camgymeriadau’r gorffennol eu hailadrodd yn y dyfodol.
I declare an interest as a general practitioner. I welcome this announcement and the accompanying change in the law. These are distressing events. The issue mainly concerns better information and levels of informed consent, much improved levels of communication between doctors and patients as regards exactly what goes on.
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad hwn a’r newid yn y gyfraith a ddaeth yn ei sgîl. Mae’r rhain yn ddigwyddiadau sydd yn peri gofid. Mae’r mater yn ymwneud yn bennaf â gwybodaeth a lefelau o ganiatâd hyddysg gwell, lefelau cysylltiadau llawer gwell rhwng meddygon a chleifion o ran yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn union.
I have professional experience, as a doctor, of having to break bad news to parents and having to talk about post-mortem examination of their child, why it must happen sometimes because of a legal requirement, the need to know exactly what happened to their child, the exact procedure, the need for detailed tissue examination and a detailed diagnosis. People want to know what happened to their child. However, there is not an easy way to put this, because it is an incredibly distressing time for both the professionals involved and for the parents.
Mae profiad proffesiynol gennyf, fel meddyg, o orfod rhoi newyddion gwael i rieni ac o orfod siarad am archwiliad post-mortem eu plentyn, y rhesymau pam y mae’n rhaid iddo ddigwydd weithiau oherwydd gofyniad cyfreithiol, yr angen i wybod yn union beth a ddigwyddodd i’w plentyn, yr union weithdrefn, yr angen am archwiliad meinwe manwl ac am ddiagnosis manwl. Mae pobl yn awyddus i wybod beth a ddigwyddodd i’w plentyn. Fodd bynnag, nid oes ffordd hawdd o wneud hyn, gan ei fod yn amser anodd dros ben i’r gweithwyr proffesiynol a’r rhieni.
I also have personal experience, because I have been on the other side. Fifteen years ago, our first child died. As a parent, I had to face the same conversation with another doctor about having a post-mortem on my own child. It is an incredibly difficult situation, and I was completely stunned and unable to take in the conversation, even as somebody who is used to imparting that sort of advice and having that conversation with other people. However, it makes no difference on the personal level and the advice and information has to be repeated over and over for it to sink in. It is about caring and sharing an informed consent to the best degree possible because you cannot take the information in. As doctors, we are guilty of skating across distressing situations because we feel uncomfortable and we would rather not go into the detail of what is going on. Sometimes, we try our best, however clumsily, to impart the information, and sometimes that information cannot be taken in by the recipient, as in my case. As a result of the shock, grief and hurt, I could not fathom what was going on. Those situations must be handled sensitively. The hurt and grief never leaves you, but the NHS’s role in imparting the information and in supporting bereaved parents is all-important at the time, and for the months and years that follow. Therefore, I welcome the statement and not only the change in the system, but also the change in climate, where parents now want to know what happened to their children.
Mae profiad personol gennyf hefyd, oherwydd imi fod ar yr ochr arall. Bymtheg mlynedd yn ôl, bu farw ein plentyn cyntaf. Fel rhiant, bu’n rhaid imi wynebu’r un sgwrs gyda meddyg arall am orfod cynnal archwiliad post-mortem ar fy mhlentyn fy hunan. Mae’n sefyllfa hynod o anodd, ac yr oeddwn wedi’m syfrdanu’n llwyr ac ni allwn ddeall y sgwrs, hyd yn oed fel rhywun sydd yn gyfarwydd â rhoi’r math hwnnw o gyngor ac â chael y sgwrs honno gyda phobl eraill. Fodd bynnag, ni wna wahaniaeth ar lefel bersonol ac mae’n rhaid ailadrodd y cyngor a’r wybodaeth dro ar ôl tro er mwyn i’r rhiant eu deall. Mae’n ymwneud â gofalu am bobl a rhannu caniatâd hyddysg i’r graddau gorau posibl oherwydd na ellir deall yr wybodaeth. Fel meddygon, yr ydym yn tueddu i siarad cyn lleied â phosibl am sefyllfaoedd sydd yn peri gofid, gan ein bod yn teimlo’n anghyfforddus a byddai’n well gennym beidio ag egluro’r manylion am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd. Weithiau, gwnawn ein gorau, er mor lletchwith, i roi’r wybodaeth, ac weithiau ni all y derbynnydd ddeall yr wybodaeth honno, fel yn fy achos i. O ganlyniad i’r sioc, y galar a’r poen, ni allwn ddeall yr hyn a ddigwyddai. Rhaid delio â’r sefyllfaoedd hynny mewn ffordd sensitif. Ni ddiflanna’r poen a’r galar byth, ond mae rôl yr NHS yn y gwaith o roi’r wybodaeth ac o gefnogi rhieni galarus yn holl bwysig ar y pryd, ac yn ystod y misoedd a’r blynyddoedd dilynol. Felly, croesawaf y datganiad ac nid yn unig y newid yn y system, ond hefyd y newid o ran hinsawdd, lle y mae rhieni bellach yn awyddus i wybod beth a ddigwyddodd i’w plant.
That was a moving contribution based on your professional and personal experiences. As I said in my closing remarks, it is about having an NHS in Wales that works with people sensitively and respectfully following the loss of a loved one. It is also about caring and sharing. We are changing the law to ensure that informed consent means exactly that, and not just handing someone a piece of paper to be signed. Unfortunately, we know that that has been the case as well as the appalling malpractices that took place in Alder Hey. We also need new guidance to ensure that counselling and bereavement expertise is brought into our health service. We must ensure that that is also part of our recognition of staff training, throughout medical and health education. This has a fundamental impact on how we consider our health and social care services in Wales.
Yr oedd hwnnw’n gyfraniad teimladwy yn seiliedig ar eich profiad proffesiynol a phersonol. Fel y dywedais yn fy sylwadau terfynol, mae’n ymwneud â chael NHS yng Nghymru sydd yn gweithio gyda phobl mewn ffordd sensitif a chyda pharch ar ôl iddynt golli rhywun annwyl. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â gofalu am bobl. Newidiwn y gyfraith i sicrhau bod caniatâd hyddysg yn golygu hynny yn union, ac nad yw ond yn rhoi darn o bapur i rywun er mwyn iddo ei lofnodi. Yn anffodus, gwyddom y bu hynny’n wir yn ogystal â’r camymarfer ofnadwy a ddigwyddodd yn Alder Hey. Mae angen arweiniad newydd hefyd i sicrhau bod arbenigedd cynghori a galar yn dod i’n gwasanaeth iechyd. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod hynny yn rhan o’n cydnabyddiaeth o hyfforddiant staff, drwy gydol addysg feddygol a iechyd. Caiff hyn effaith sylfaenol ar y ffordd yr ystyriwn ein gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru.
I welcome the offer of the helpline and help from trusts along with the other measures that you mentioned. It is imperative that nothing like this ever happens again. Alder Hey is invaluable to the people of north Wales. It saved my brother’s life around 47 years ago and, as a family, we were indebted to it. I would only have had one rather than two brothers without Alder Hey. We cannot undo the damage done recently, no matter how dreadful. However, we must ensure that we try to reinstate people’s confidence in the health service because that is imperative in times of need, especially when we entrust our children to the medical service. Therefore, I welcome your statement today.
Croesawaf y cynnig am y llinell gymorth a chymorth gan ymddiriedolaethau ynghyd â’r mesurau eraill a grybwyllwyd gennych. Mae’n hanfodol na ddigwydd unrhyw beth fel hyn byth eto. Mae Alder Hey yn hynod werthfawr i bobl gogledd Cymru. Achubodd fywyd fy mrawd tua 47 mlynedd yn ôl ac, fel teulu, yr oeddem yn ddyledus iddo. Dim ond un brawd a fyddai wedi bod gennyf yn lle dau oni bai am Alder Hey. Ni allwn ddadwneud y niwed a wnaethpwyd yn ddiweddar, ni waeth pa mor ofnadwy ydoedd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn ceisio adfer hyder pobl yn y gwasanaeth iechyd oherwydd bod hynny’n hanfodol mewn cyfnodau o angen, yn enwedig pan roddwn ein plant yng ngofal y gwasanaeth meddygol. Felly, croesawaf eich datganiad heddiw.
It will be clear to people when they read about the Secretary of State for Health’s statement that the disciplinary action, which must be taken, will divorce the good service provided at Alder Hey for many hundreds and thousands of children from what recently occurred. We must ensure that the action taken differentiates between this matter and the caring service that is provided. However, we must be clear about the patient’s right to ask questions and to ensure that our standards, at every level, are accountable. In terms of the Assembly’s and the Government’s responsibility that has clearly been driven home to us today.
Bydd yn glir i bobl pan ddarllenant am ddatganiad yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd y bydd y camau disgyblu, y mae’n rhaid eu cymryd, yn gwahanu’r gwasanaeth da a ddarparwyd yn Alder Hey i gannoedd a miloedd o blant oddi wrth yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ddiweddar. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y camau a gymerir yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y mater hwn a’r gwasanaeth gofalgar a ddarperir. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn glir am hawl cleifion i ofyn cwestiynau ac i sicrhau bod ein safonau, ar bob lefel, yn atebol. O ran cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth, eglurwyd hynny inni yn glir heddiw.
On behalf of the Welsh Conservative Group, I welcome this statement and commend the Minister for speedily bringing this issue before us. I know that a statement has been made in Parliament this afternoon. You will be supported in all measures that you undertake to ensure that these matters are dealt with sensitively, clearly and with the utmost respect. I shall not add anything other than to say that I agree with all Dai Lloyd’s points. On behalf of the Assembly, I thank him for being prepared to draw on such difficult and painful personal memories.
Ar ran Grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru, croesawaf y datganiad hwn a chymeradwyaf y Gweinidog am ddod â’r mater hwn ger ein bron yn gyflym. Gwn y gwnaethpwyd datganiad yn San Steffan y prynhawn yma. Cewch eich cefnogi ym mhob un o’r mesurau yr ymgymerwch â hwy er mwyn sicrhau yr ymdrinnir â’r materion hyn mewn ffordd sensitif, yn glir a chyda’r parch mwyaf. Nid ychwanegaf unrhyw beth arall heblaw am ddweud fy mod yn cytuno â phob pwynt arall a wnaethpwyd gan Dai Lloyd. Ar ran y Cynulliad, diolchaf iddo am fod yn barod i sôn am atgofion personol mor anodd a phoenus.
I also welcome this statement. Thank you, Jane, for coming to the Chamber so readily. I regret that Alan Milburn needed to introduce today’s legislation. However, I hope that by doing so, this will help to draw a line under this terrible affair and re-establish the trust between doctors and patients, which is so important. Alder Hey does a wonderful job. As Karen Sinclair said, many from north Wales will bear testimony to its work. It has been a terrible affair and we hope it will never happen again. I hope that with the legislation that Alan Milburn introduced today, backed up by what the Assembly will do in Wales, the parents that have suffered during this tragedy can start to rebuild their lives—if you ever get over anything like that and I doubt whether you do—and regain trust in the NHS.
Croesawaf innau’r datganiad hwn hefyd. Diolch, Jane, am ddod i’r Siambr mor fuan. Gresynaf y ffaith y bu angen i Alan Milburn gyflwyno deddfwriaeth heddiw. Fodd bynnag, gobeithio y bydd gwneud hynny yn ein cynorthwyo i dynnu llinell o dan y mater ofnadwy hwn ac i ailsefydlu’r ymddiriedaeth rhwng meddygon a chleifion, sydd mor bwysig. Gwna Alder Hey waith ardderchog. Fel y dywedodd Karen Sinclair, bydd llawer o bobl o ogledd Cymru yn dwyn tystiolaeth i’w waith. Bu’n fater ofnadwy a gobeithiwn na ddigwydd byth eto. Gobeithio, gyda’r ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynodd Alan Milburn heddiw, wedi’i chefnogi gan yr hyn a wna’r Cynulliad yng Nghymru, y gall y rhieni a ddioddefodd yn ystod y drychineb hon ddechrau ailadeiladu eu bywydau—os gallwch fyth ddygymod ag unrhyw beth fel hynny ac mae amheuon gennyf ynglŷn â hynny—ac ailymddiried yn yr NHS.
For the sake of the people and patients of north Wales, we must ensure that we are confident that that service is being provided. We know that Alder Hey can provide a service of the highest standard and quality. However, we must make everything clear and be open in terms of what has been found. We must also answer people’s questions about the problems in north Wales, in particular, concerns from parents, who may not have previously contacted us.
Er mwyn pobl a chleifion gogledd Cymru, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn hyderus y caiff y gwasanaeth hwnnw ei ddarparu. Gwyddom y gall Alder Hey ddarparu gwasanaeth o’r safon ac ansawdd uchaf. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni egluro popeth a bod yn agored o ran yr hyn a ddarganfuwyd. Rhaid inni hefyd ateb cwestiynau pobl am y problemau yng ngogledd Cymru, yn enwedig pryderon gan rieni, nad ydynt o bosibl wedi cysylltu â ni o’r blaen.
Like everyone else, I am grateful to you for responding so quickly to the publication of the Redfern report today. You highlighted some of the practical measures that you will put in place to ensure good standards. You also stated that there is help available for people who will be severely distressed by what they read in the Redfern report and, perhaps, will not know where to turn. I welcome your intention to make NHS Direct available to them so that they can channel their concerns and questions. We must never forget that these parents have suffered a double tragedy. First, the tragedy of losing their child, a loved one. That has been compounded by the discovery, often many years later, that this malpractice was widespread. It sometimes seems unfair to pick on Alder Hey in the way that we have. We know that it delivers excellent services and yet, we have singled it out. However, the Donaldson report, which was published today, reveals that this was a widespread practice throughout UK hospitals. This was not a problem that simply occurred at Alder Hey. Given the fact that Donaldson has reported today on the extent of this practice throughout English hospitals, when will Dr Ruth Hall’s report on Welsh hospitals be made available? I am sure that people in and outside of Wales will see the figures that have been collated for England and want to know what the situation is in Wales. We need to make those figures readily available for them.
Fel pawb arall, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ymateb mor gyflym i gyhoeddiad adroddiad Redfern heddiw. Amlygasant rai o’r mesurau ymarferol a sefydlwch er mwyn sicrhau safonau da. Nodasoch hefyd fod cymorth ar gael ar gyfer pobl y bydd yr hyn a ddarllenant yn adroddiad Redfern yn peri gofid mawr iddynt ac, efallai, na wyddant ble i droi. Croesawaf eich bwriad i sicrhau bod NHS Direct ar gael iddynt fel y gallant gyfeirio eu pryderon a’u cwestiynau. Ni ddylem fyth anghofio bod y rhieni hyn wedi dioddef trychineb ddwbl. Yn gyntaf, y drychineb o golli eu plentyn, rhywun annwyl. Cafodd hynny ei ddwysáu gan y darganfyddiad, sawl blwyddyn yn ddiweddarach yn aml, y digwyddai’r camymarfer hwn yn rheolaidd. Ymddengys yn annheg weithiau i feio Alder Hey yn y ffordd yr ydym wedi’i wneud. Gwyddom ei fod yn cyflwyno gwasanaethau ardderchog ac eto, yr ydym wedi’i neilltuo. Fodd bynnag, datgela adroddiad Donaldson, a gyhoeddwyd heddiw, y bu hyn yn arfer cyffredin drwy ysbytai’r DU. Nid problem a ddigwyddodd yn Alder Hey yn unig oedd hon. O ystyried y ffaith y cyflwynodd Donaldson adroddiad heddiw ar raddau’r arfer hwn drwy ysbytai Lloegr, pryd fydd adroddiad Dr Ruth Hall ar ysbytai Cymru ar gael? Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pobl yng Nghymru a’r tu allan iddi yn gweld y ffigurau a goladwyd ar gyfer Lloegr ac y byddant yn awyddus i wybod beth yw’r sefyllfa yng Nghymru. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y ffigurau hynny ar gael iddynt yn fuan.
Dr Ruth Hall has undertaken a census of the extent of organ and tissue sample retention in Wales, following post mortems. I will make that available to Members after my statement this afternoon. It is important to record that organ and tissue samples are retained after post mortems for several reasons, as Dr Lloyd pointed out. For example, to establish a diagnosis on cause of death, for legal reasons, for research, for teaching purposes and, in the case of tissue samples, in particular, to comply with existing professional guidance.
Ymgymerodd Dr Ruth Hall â chyfrifiad ar i ba raddau y cadwyd organau a meinweoedd yng Nghymru, ar ôl archwiliadau post-mortem. Rhoddaf yr wybodaeth honno i’r Aelodau ar ôl fy natganiad y prynhawn yma. Mae’n bwysig nodi y cedwir samplau o organau ac o feinwe ar ôl archwiliadau post-mortem am nifer o resymau, fel y nododd Dr Lloyd. Er enghraifft, er mwyn sefydlu pam y bu person farw, am resymau cyfreithiol, er mwyn ymchwil, at ddibenion addysgu ac, yn achos samplau o feinwe, yn benodol, er mwyn cydymffurfio ag arweiniad proffesiynol presennol.
The key issue must be about informed consent and how these matters are sensitively and respectfully discussed with a bereaved parent or relative at the time. We know that people seek that information. That survey shows that 7,752 post mortems were carried out in Wales in 2000. The majority of these were at the coroner’s request. Only 307 were hospital post mortems, which were carried out in 15 hospitals. Written agreement was obtained from relatives for all hospital post mortems.
Y mater allweddol yw cael caniatâd hyddysg a sut y trafodir y materion hyn mewn ffordd sensitif a llawn parch gyda’r rhiant neu’r perthynas galarus ar y pryd. Gwyddom fod pobl yn chwilio am yr wybodaeth honno. Dengys yr arolwg hwnnw y cynhaliwyd 7,752 o archwiliadau post-mortem yng Nghymru yn 2000. Cynhaliwyd mwyafrif y rhain ar gais y crwner. Dim ond 307 ohonynt oedd yn archwiliadau post-mortem ar gais ysbytai, a gynhaliwyd mewn 15 o ysbytai. Cafwyd cytundeb ysgrifenedig gan berthnasau ar gyfer pob archwiliad post-mortem ar gais ysbytai.
In terms of organ and tissue sample retention in 2000—this is contained in the report that you will receive—organ retention refers to hearts, lungs, brains and other body parts. In all cases where organs, body parts or tissue samples were retained in 2000, written agreement was obtained from relatives. Unfortunately, you will recall the Bristol situation, which made us examine the situation in 1999-2000. We had begun to implement this new guidance. However, I will give Members full details following my statement.
O ran cadw organau a samplau o feinwe yn 2000—cynhwysir hyn yn yr adroddiad y byddwch yn ei gael—cyfeiria cadw organau at galonnau, ysgyfaint, yr ymennydd a rhannau eraill o’r corff. Ym mhob un o’r achosion lle y cadwyd organau, rhannau o’r corff neu samplau o feinwe yn 2000, cafwyd cytundeb ysgrifenedig gan berthnasau. Yn anffodus, fe gofiwch y sefyllfa ym Mryste, a’n gorfododd i edrych ar y sefyllfa yn 1999-2000. Yr oeddwn wedi dechrau gweithredu’r arweiniad newydd hwn. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf fanylion llawn i’r Aelodau ar ôl fy natganiad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 96
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 96
Diolch yn fawr i’r Gweinidog am ei pharodrwydd i wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad ar fyrder. Diolch yn fawr i’r Aelodau hefyd am eu cydweithrediad.
I thank the Minister for her willingness to make a statement to the Assembly at short notice. I also thank the Members for their co-operation.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5:24 p.m.
The meeting ended at 5:24 p.m.