Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 16 Ebrill 2002
Tuesday 16 April 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
- 3Tollau ar Fewnforion Dur i UDASteel Imports Tariffs of the USA
- 7Targedau ar gyfer Iechyd, Addysg a ThrafnidiaethTargets for Health, Education and Transport
- 11Rhyddid GwybodaethFreedom of Information
- 13Allgáu CymdeithasolSocial Exclusion
- 14Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol CymunedolCommunity Legal Service
- 16Trosglwyddo Swyddogaethau i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruTransfer of Functions to the National Assembly for Wales
- 17Caniatáu i Bensiynwyr a Phobl Anabl Deithio am ddim ar FysiauFree Bus Travel for Pensioners and Disabled People
- 19Cymorth y Cynulliad i Awdurdod Heddlu De CymruAssembly Support for the South Wales Police Authority
- 22Is-ddeddfwriaeth a fydd yn Destun y Weithdrefn EstynedigSubordinate Legislation to be Subjected to the Extended Procedure
- 24Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
- 36Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 39Datganiad ar Gyfarwyddyd ar Ymestyn Categorïau Pobl DdigartrefStatement on Guidance to Extend the Categories of Homeless People
- 47Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 48Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 49Ymgynghori ar Orchymyn Diwygio Rheoliadol (Cymorth Tai) (Cymru a Lloegr) 2002Consultation on the Regulatory Reform (Housing Assistance) (England and Wales) Order 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 54Cefnogi Pobl yng NghymruSupporting People in Wales 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
- 76Yr Adroddiad ar Iechyd Pobl Ifanc yng Nghymru 1986-2000The Report on Adolescent Health in Wales 1986-2000 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ymgynghori ar Orchymyn Diwygio Rheoliadol (Cymorth Tai) (Cymru a Lloegr) 2002Consultation on the Regulatory Reform (Housing Assistance) (England and Wales) Order 2002 | ||||
| Cynnig NDM1024Motion NDM1024 | 41 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cefnogi Pobl yng NghymruSupporting People in Wales | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 19 | 0 | 27 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 19 | 0 | 27 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 19 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 18 | 0 | 29 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 5Amendment 5 | 13 | 7 | 29 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM1025Motion NDM1025 | 36 | 13 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Yr Adroddiad ar Iechyd Pobl Ifanc yng Nghymru 1986-2000The Report on Adolescent Health in Wales 1986-2000 | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 18 | 0 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 7 | 11 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM1023Motion NDM1023 | 48 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions to the First Minister
Tollau ar Fewnforion Dur i UDA
Steel Imports Tariffs of the USA
Will the First Minister make a statement concerning the implementation of USA steel import tariffs? (OAQ16820)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y tollau a godir ar fewnforion dur i UDA? (OAQ16820)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 3
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 3
Cyn imi ateb y cwestiwn, ar ran pob Aelod a phob plaid, mynegaf ein cydymdeimlad â’r Llywydd ar farwolaeth sydyn ei chwaer yn ystod gwyliau’r Pasg.
in Welsh Before I answer the question, on behalf of all Members and all parties, I express our condolences to the Presiding Officer on the untimely death of his sister during the Easter recess.
The United States of America’s decision to implement steel tariffs was unjustified and deeply regrettable. The Welsh Assembly Government supported the introduction, from the beginning of this month, of the European Union’s anti-surge measures to protect the European steel industry from the effects of diverted steel products that now cannot be imported into the USA. The measures will help to protect the UK steel industry during a difficult period, which has been the cause of great concern for Corus and Allied Steel and Wire Ltd in Wales. We support the European Commission’s actions in immediately invoking the World Trade Organisation’s dispute settlement procedure, although it will be some months before that comes into being. Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State for Wales, and I discussed this matter with, Samuel Bodman, the US Government’s Deputy Secretary of Commerce, when he visited Cardiff at the weekend. You will also be aware of the comments of the USA’s Ambassador, William Farish, when he addressed the British-American Business Council at the closing meeting of its spring conference yesterday.
yn Saesneg Nid oedd cyfiawnhad dros benderfyniad Unol Daleithiau America i godi tollau ar ddur ac mae i’w resynu’n fawr. Cefnogodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad y camau gwrth-ymchwydd a gyflwynwyd o ddechrau’r mis hwn gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i warchod diwydiant dur Ewrop rhag effeithiau’r cynhyrchion dur a arallgyfeiriwyd oherwydd na ellir mwyach eu mewnforio i’r Unol Daleithiau. Bydd y camau’n helpu i warchod diwydiant dur y DU yn ystod cyfnod anodd, a fu’n achos pryder mawr i Corus ac Allied Steel and Wire Ltd yng Nghymru. Cefnogwn y modd y gwnaeth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd alw gweithdrefn datrys anghydfod Corff Masnachu’r Byd i rym yn syth, er y cymer hynny rai misoedd i ddigwydd. Bu Paul Murphy, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, a mi yn trafod y mater hwn gyda Samuel Bodman, Dirprwy Ysgrifennydd Masnach Llywodraeth yr Unol Daleithiau, pan ymwelodd â Chaerdydd dros y Sul. Byddwch yn gwybod hefyd am sylwadau Llysgennad UDA, William Farish, pan anerchodd yntau Gyngor Busnes Prydain-America yng nghyfarfod olaf eu cynhadledd wanwyn ddoe.
Will you give an assurance that you will make personal representations to the European Union to ensure that these tariffs will be reduced or eliminated?
A rowch chi sicrwydd y byddwch yn pwyso’n bersonol ar yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i sicrhau y caiff y tollau hyn eu gostwng neu eu diddymu?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
That raises several issues about whether the EU presents a united front or whether you seek the route of being excluded from the tariff regime, as some countries seem to have done. There has been much confusion in the press about this. Corus has informed us that it has applied to be excluded from some tariffs where US purchasers of some Corus products—not from Wales, it must be said—say that they cannot obtain those products from elsewhere. Those exclusions have been enacted with regard to imports for American steel purchasers that cannot be replaced by other means. Although Corus exports a small amount of tinplate from Wales to the USA, and Allied Steel and Wire Ltd exports specialised reinforcing bars from its plant near Cardiff, they see no prospect of being excluded from the tariff regime. Therefore, the tariff regime must be changed.
Cwyd hynny sawl cwestiwn ynghylch a yw’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn sefyll fel un ynteu a ydych yn ceisio cael eich eithrio o drefn y tollau, fel y gwnaeth rhai gwledydd, mae’n debyg. Bu llawer o ddryswch yn y wasg ynghylch hyn. Mae Corus wedi dweud wrthym eu bod wedi gwneud cais am gael eu heithrio o rai tollau lle dywed prynwyr rhai o nwyddau Corus yn yr Unol Daleithiau—nid nwyddau o Gymru, rhaid dweud—na allant gael y cynhyrchion hynny o unman arall. Gweithredwyd yr eithriadau hynny yng nghyswllt mewnforion i brynwyr dur yn America na ellir eu cael drwy ffyrdd eraill. Er bod Corus yn allforio ychydig bach o dunplat o Gymru i UDA, a bod Allied Steel and Wire Ltd yn allforio bariau atgyfnerthu arbenigol o’u gwaith ger Caerdydd, ni welant unrhyw obaith o gael eu heithrio o drefn y tollau. Felly, rhaid newid trefn y tollau.
I welcome the exemptions that will be allowed, of which the UK may be a prime beneficiary. However, the logic of the exemptions should be followed through and there should be no tariffs at all on steel imports into the USA. It is at variance with the USA’s stated ambition to secure free trade throughout the world and it is also increasingly seen as harmful to the US economy. Will do you everything in your power to ensure that the logic is followed through and that there are no tariffs at all on steel imports into the US?
Croesawaf yr eithrio a ganiateir, a all fod o fudd arbennig i’r DU. Fodd bynnag, dylid dilyn rhesymeg yr eithrio drwodd ac ni ddylai fod dim tollau o gwbl ar fewnforion dur i UDA. Mae’n groes i uchelgais honedig UDA i sicrhau masnach rydd drwy’r byd ac fe’i gwelir fwyfwy hefyd fel cam niweidiol i economi’r Unol Daleithiau. A wnewch chi bopeth o fewn eich gallu i sicrhau y dilynir y rhesymeg drwodd ac na fydd dim tollau o gwbl ar fewnforion dur i UDA?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I agree with all that. It is a complicated issue, as Deputy Secretary Bodman explained to Paul Murphy and I, because there is split responsibility for trade negotiations between the US Congress and the US administration. Negotiating free trade issues with the USA is a bit of a dog’s dinner because permission must be obtained from Congress—which is finely balanced—even to authorise the President to conduct free trade negotiations. Therefore you must buy enough support in Congress, by agreeing certain tariffs, to permit the President to negotiate a free trade agreement. You can see that there is a lack of logic there but that is how the US constitution works regarding trade. It is complicated. In terms of exclusions from the tariffs, Ambassador Farish said in Cardiff yesterday at the British-American Business Council conference’s final session, that over 1,000 applications for exclusions from the tariffs have been made and probably a high percentage of those will be acted on positively. Steel products that cannot be obtained domestically in North America, and must therefore be bought from Britain, Germany or wherever, will be excluded. However, contrary to press reports, Corus has not been granted an exclusion, though it was excluded on two relatively small products, which were not from Wales, I am sorry to say.
Cytunaf â hynny i gyd. Mae’n fater cymhleth, fel yr eglurodd y Dirprwy Ysgrifennydd Bodman wrth Paul Murphy a mi, oherwydd mae’r cyfrifoldeb am negodiadau masnach wedi’i rannu rhwng Cyngres UDA a gweinyddiaeth UDA. Mae negodi materion yn ymwneud â masnach rydd gyda’r Unol Daleithiau’n dipyn o draed moch oherwydd mae’n rhaid cael caniatâd gan y Gyngres—sydd ar fin y gyllell—hyd yn oed i awdurdodi’r Arlywydd i negodi ar fasnach rydd. Felly rhaid ichi sicrhau digon o gefnogaeth yn y Gyngres, drwy gytuno ar rai tollau penodol, i ganiatáu i’r Arlywydd negodi cytundeb masnach rydd. Gallwch weld bod diffyg rhesymeg yno ond dyna sut y mae cyfansoddiad UDA yn gweithio ynghylch masnach. Mae’n gymhleth. O ran eithrio o’r tollau, dywedodd y Llysgennad Farish yng Nghaerdydd ddoe, yn sesiwn olaf cynhadledd Cyngor Busnes Prydain-America, fod dros 1,000 o geisiadau am eithrio o’r tollau wedi dod i law a’i bod yn debygol y bydd canlyniad cadarnhaol i ganran uchel o’r rheini. Bydd cynhyrchion dur na ellir eu cael gartref yng Ngogledd America, ac y mae’n rhaid felly eu prynu o Brydain, yr Almaen neu ble bynnag, wedi’u heithrio. Er hynny, yn groes i adroddiadau’r wasg, ni chaniatawyd eithriad i Corus, er i’r cwmni gael ei eithrio ar ddau gynnyrch cymharol fach, nad oedd o Gymru, mae’n flin gennyf ddweud.
Fe wrthodoch ysgrifennu at Arlywydd yr Unol Daleithiau i feirniadu ei safbwynt ar faterion megis cytundeb Kyoto. A ydych wedi ysgrifennu at yr Arlywydd ar ran diwydiant dur Cymru yn beirniadu’r tollau hyn, gan fynnu bod yr Unol Daleithiau yn eu diddymu? Os nad ydych wedi gwneud hynny ar ran Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, a wnewch chi ysgrifennu ato?
You have refused to write to the President of the United States criticising his stance on matters such as the Kyoto protocol. Have you written to the President on behalf of the Welsh steel industry to criticise these tariffs, and to insist that they are lifted by the United States? If you have not written to him on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales, will you do so?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5
Cefais gyfle i siarad â Dirprwy Ysgrifenydd Adran Fasnach yr Unol Daleithiau, Samuel Bodman, wrth iddo ymweld â Chaerdydd. Cafodd Paul Murphy a minnau gyfle i wneud y pwyntiau hynny iddo’n bersonol.
I had the opportunity to speak with the Deputy Secretary of the US Department of Commerce, Samuel Bodman, when he visited Cardiff. Paul Murphy and I had the opportunity to put those points to him personally.
Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 5
Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymu siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
On John Griffiths’s point, is it not the case that the American steel industry is unable to deliver demand in the domestic market and that prices are rising? The Bethlehem Steel Corporation reports that it is now working at full tilt and that its prices are rising. The difficulty with exemptions is that only those who can supply the relevant products will get through the tariff barrier. What worries us more than anything else is the dumping of the sort of steel that Corus can make into our market. We must work harder on that aspect. What representations have been made through Members of the European Parliament and the Wales European Centre to assist the European Commission in its actions against the USA through the World Trade Organisation?
Ar bwynt John Griffiths, onid yw’n wir nad yw diwydiant dur America’n gallu ateb y galw yn y farchnad gartref a bod prisiau’n codi? Dywed Corfforaeth Ddur Bethlehem ei bod bellach yn gweithio hyd eithaf ei gallu a bod ei phrisiau’n codi. Yr anhawster gydag eithrio yw mai dim ond y rhai a all gyflenwi’r cynnyrch perthnasol a gaiff fynd drwy’r rhwystr tollau. Yr hyn sy’n ein poeni ni’n fwy na dim arall yw’r posibilrwydd y caiff y math o ddur y gall Corus ei wneud ei ollwng yn ein marchnad ni. Rhaid inni weithio’n galetach ar yr agwedd honno. Pa sylwadau a wnaethpwyd drwy Aelodau Senedd Ewrop a Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru i helpu’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wrth iddo weithredu yn erbyn UDA drwy Gorff Masnachu’r Byd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
You have raised several issues, Mike. One is the question of the time lag, which is important. The political process grinds slowly and produces a solution after much political consultation and discussion with Congress, the steel unions and the governors of the ‘rust-belt states’. By the time the presidential decision was made, the economy was already picking up. The steel industry is also picking up, but it was not when the process started, which caused concern about bankruptcies in US steel.
Yr ydych wedi codi sawl mater, Mike. Un ohonynt yw cwestiwn yr oedi, sydd yn bwysig. Mae’r broses wleidyddol yn rhygnu ymlaen yn araf ac yn cynhyrchu ateb ar ôl llawer o ymgynghori gwleidyddol a thrafod gyda’r Gyngres, yr undebau dur a llywodraethwyr ‘taleithiau ardaloedd y rhwd’. Erbyn i’r penderfyniad arlywyddol gael ei wneud, yr oedd yr economi ar i fyny. Mae’r diwydiant dur ar i fyny hefyd, ond nid felly yr oedd pan ddechreuodd y broses, a achosodd bryder ynghylch methdaliadau yn niwydiant dur yr Unol Daleithiau.
You also raised the issue of intervention by European institutions and MEPs. There is a united front in Europe to oppose the US steel tariffs and to get the USA to back down by the threat of taking it through the WTO’s dispute settlement procedures. However, as that will take some time, we must have the anti-surge procedures in place to ensure that steel diverted from the USA is not dumped on our shores. Undoubtedly, one of the biggest areas for such disruption will be Europe. That is certain to have some negative effect on Corus and Allied Steel and Wire Ltd.
Bu ichi godi cwestiwn ymyriad gan gyrff Ewropeaidd ac Aelodau Senedd Ewrop. Mae undod yn Ewrop dros wrthwynebu tollau dur yr Unol Daleithiau a thros orfodi UDA i dynnu yn ôl drwy fygwth defnyddio gweithdrefnau datrys anghydfod Corff Masnachu’r Byd yn ei herbyn. Fodd bynnag, gan y cymer hynny beth amser, rhaid inni gael y gweithdrefnau gwrth-ymchwydd yn eu lle i sicrhau na chaiff dur a arallgyfeiriwyd o UDA ei ollwng ar ein glannau ni. Heb os, un o’r ardaloedd mwyaf ar gyfer trafferth o’r fath fydd Ewrop. Mae hynny’n sicr o gael rhyw effaith negyddol ar Corus ac Allied Steel and Wire Ltd.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 6
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
The ideal position is that there would be no tariffs at all; but the pragmatic view must be that tariffs are likely. When you were in the US, did you have an opportunity to raise this issue and put forward the British Government’s view? Further to that, have you, the Prime Minister, and Corus, considered what exemptions and exclusions we in Wales can obtain? That is important to safeguard Welsh jobs; German steel companies are seeking as many exemptions and exclusions as possible. Should we not be doing the same?
Y sefyllfa ddelfrydol fyddai bod heb dollau o gwbl, ond rhaid inni fod yn bragmataidd a dweud bod tollau’n debygol. Pan oeddech yn yr Unol Daleithiau, a gawsoch gyfle i godi’r mater hwn a chyflwyno safbwynt Llywodraeth Prydain? Yn sgîl hynny, a ydych chi, y Prif Weinidog a Corus wedi ystyried pa eithriadau y gallwn ni yng Nghymru eu cael? Mae hynny’n bwysig er mwyn diogelu swyddi Cymru; mae cwmnïau dur yr Almaen yn ceisio cymaint o eithriadau ag sy’n bosibl. Oni ddylem ni fod yn gwneud yr un modd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
You have raised a classic case of whether you maintain the united front to attempt to get the USA to change its mind, or whether you seek an exemption, either for an industry or a country. I do not think that there is any chance of a country exemption for the UK, or for Germany. We are not in any special category—we are not a third world country or an infant industry, and we are not in the North America Free Trade Area, unlike Mexico and Canada.
Yr ydych wedi codi achos clasurol, sef a ddylid cadw’r safiad unedig i geisio cael UDA i newid ei meddwl, ynteu a ddylid ceisio eithriad, naill ai i ddiwydiant neu i wlad. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod unrhyw siawns y caiff y DU, na’r Almaen, ei heithrio fel gwlad. Nid ydym mewn unrhyw gategori arbennig—nid ydym yn wlad trydydd byd nac yn ddiwydiant yn ei glytiau, ac nid ydym o fewn Ardal Fasnach Rydd Gogledd America, yn wahanol i Fecsico a Chanada.
On the issue of an exemption for Corus, it seems to be—and there has been some misreporting in the press on this matter—that some of its steel products will be exempted, but not the tinplate that it exports from Wales. There is no likely solution to that problem other than for the USA to back down or to exclude all tinplate—not only Corus’s tinplate—from the tariffs. You might say that that is rather sad, but Wales, or Corus, is no longer a major exporter of steel. Therefore, the backwash effect is probably the most significant for us in Wales. Will there be a depression of steel prices and job losses because of diverted steel intended for the USA being dumped at whatever prices people can get for it when it arrives in Britain? That could affect us in terms of tinplate, strip and the products made by Allied Steel and Wire Ltd in Cardiff.
Ar gwestiwn eithrio Corus, mae’n ymddangos—a chafwyd adroddiadau cyfeiliornus yn y wasg ar y mater hwn—y bydd rhai o’i gynhyrchion dur wedi’u heithrio, ond nid y tunplat a allforir ganddo o Gymru. Nid oes unrhyw ateb tebygol i’r broblem honno ond i UDA ildio neu iddi eithrio pob tunplat—nid tunplat Corus yn unig—o’r tollau. Gallech ddweud bod hynny braidd yn drist, ond nid yw Cymru, na Corus, yn allforiwr dur mawr mwyach. Felly mae’n debyg bod yr ôl-effaith yn fwyaf arwyddocaol i ni yng Nghymru. A fydd dirwasgiad ym mhrisiau dur ac a gollir swyddi oherwydd bod dur arallgyfeiriedig a fwriadwyd ar gyfer UDA yn cael ei ollwng am ba bynnag brisiau y gall pobl eu cael amdano pan gyrhaedda ym Mhrydain? Gallai hynny effeithio arnom ni yn nhermau tunplat, dur stribed a’r cynhyrchion a wneir gan Allied Steel and Wire Ltd yng Nghaerdydd.
Targedau ar gyfer Iechyd, Addysg a Thrafnidiaeth
Targets for Health, Education and Transport
What targets for achievement has the First Minister set in health, education and transport over the next 12 months? (OAQ16821)
Pa dargedau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi eu pennu ar gyfer iechyd, addysg a thrafnidiaeth i’w cyflawni dros y 12 mis nesaf? (OAQ16821)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
The targets that we aim to achieve this year include the maximum waiting times for in-patient treatment for priority areas, namely 12 months for cardiac surgery, 4 months for cataract surgery and 18 months for orthopaedic surgery. On education, we aim to ensure that no infant or junior class has more than 30 pupils by 2003-04. On transport, we aim to set up the Wales and borders rail franchise with the Strategic Rail Authority and to get it going before the end of the year.
Mae’r targedau yr anelwn at eu cyflawni eleni’n cynnwys gosod nenfwd ar yr amserau aros i gleifion mewnol mewn meysydd blaenoriaeth, sef 12 mis am lawdriniaeth y galon, 4 mis am lawdriniaeth cataract a 18 mis am lawdriniaeth orthopedig. Ym maes addysg, ein nod yw sicrhau na fydd gan unrhyw ddosbarth babanod na iau fwy na 30 o ddisgyblion erbyn 2003-04. Ynglŷn â thrafnidiaeth, ein nod yw sefydlu masnachfraint rheilffyrdd Cymru a’r gororau gyda’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol a’i rhoi ar waith cyn diwedd y flwyddyn.
On schools, you will have seen reports on small rural school closures in Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Monmouthshire; they are now out for consultation. Will you reconsider the Government’s national policy in terms of seeking presumption against closure given the impact that it has on small rural communities and Welsh-language communities?
Ynglŷn ag ysgolion, byddwch wedi gweld adroddiadau ar gau ysgolion gwledig bach yn Sir Gaerfyrddin, Sir Benfro a Sir Fynwy; maent yn rhan o broses ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd. A wnewch chi ailystyried polisi cenedlaethol y Llywodraeth, o ran ceisio rhagdybiaeth yn erbyn cau, o ystyried yr effaith a gaiff hynny ar gymunedau bach gwledig a chymunedau Cymraeg eu hiaith?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
We all sympathise with that view, Nick, but nevertheless the national curriculum must be delivered. You will be aware of the report indicating that a school with less than 90 pupils will struggle to deliver the national curriculum if it operates as a solo school. Therefore we need to seek methods to encourage a federation of rural schools so that if they have less than 90 pupils, they can still deliver the national curriculum and are no longer subject to the doubt of the local authorities that administer them. I hope that we succeed; we are not there yet.
Yr ydym i gyd yn cydymdeimlo â’r farn honno, Nick, ond serch hynny mae’n rhaid gweithredu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad sy’n dweud y bydd ysgol â llai na 90 o ddisgyblion yn ei chael hi’n anodd gweithredu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol os gweithreda fel ysgol unigol. Felly mae angen inni chwilio am ddulliau i annog ffederasiwn o ysgolion gwledig, fel y gallant, os oes ganddynt lai na 90 o ddisgyblion, barhau i weithredu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol fel na fyddant mwyach yn codi amheuon ymhlith yr awdurdodau lleol sy’n eu gweinyddu. Gobeithiaf y llwyddwn; nid ydym yno eto.
Clearly, it is a major problem in rural Wales, and, as you say, it also has a language component. A village school is frequently the backbone of the social and cultural life of a village, in the way that the chapel was 40 or 50 years ago. It is not easy to be sympathetic because the national curriculum must be delivered. Federated schools are the answer.
Yn amlwg, mae’n broblem fawr yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, lle mae elfen o iaith hefyd, fel y dywedwch. Yr ysgol bentref yn aml yw asgwrn cefn bywyd cymdeithasol a diwylliannol y pentref, fel yr oedd y capel 40 neu 50 mlynedd yn ôl. Nid yw’n hawdd gweithredu gyda chydymdeimlad oherwydd mae’n rhaid gweithredu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Ysgolion ffederal yw’r ateb.
I welcome the inference of your answer, namely that educational need and facility should be the generator of this policy rather than finance. I have a distinct feeling that in many cases it is simply a question of saving money rather than ensuring that the national curriculum is developed. There is no uniform approach throughout Wales, certainly not throughout rural Wales.
Croesawaf yr hyn sydd ymhlyg yn eich ateb, sef mai angen a hwylustod addysgol a ddylai fod yn ysgogydd y polisi hwn, ac nid cyllid. Mae gennyf deimlad cryf mai, mewn llawer o achosion, cwestiwn o arbed arian ydyw yn hytrach nag o sicrhau y datblygir y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Nid oes trefn unffurf drwy Gymru, yn sicr nid drwy Gymru wledig.
In Powys, few rural schools even have a question mark next to them, but in other areas, they close with much smaller rolls. Will you restate that educational need is the main policy that this Government wishes to pursue? There is little evidence of that. Schools such as Moylgrove and Ysgol Hermon in Pembrokeshire are excellent. They were able to deliver the national curriculum without difficulty, but are now facing closure.
Ym Mhowys, ychydig o ysgolion gwledig sydd hyd yn oed â marc cwestiwn drostynt, ond mewn ardaloedd eraill, fe’u caeir gyda chofrestri llawer llai. A wnewch chi ailddatgan mai angen addysgol yw’r prif bolisi y dymuna’r Llywodraeth hon ei dilyn? Ychydig o dystiolaeth sydd o hynny. Mae ysgolion fel Trewyddel ac Ysgol Hermon yn Sir Benfro’n ardderchog. Yr oeddent yn gallu gweithredu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol heb unrhyw anhawster, ond yn awr maent yn wynebu cael eu cau.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
You are right to mention such schools; I am sure that they have been excellent. However, we cannot exclude the fact that what often occurs in rural areas is that all of a sudden, a majority of parents will decide that they no longer want to send their children to a particular school for whatever reason. That has been a factor in some of the non-viability situations, to which Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and other councils had to respond. You are right to say that educational need is the key factor, and I said so in my response to your first question. That is why we believe in an education policy based on a federation of schools, with peripatetic teachers teaching on Monday and Tuesday in one school, Wednesday and Thursday in another, and so on, to ensure that the national curriculum is delivered. We hope that that is the way forward for rural schools.
Yr ydych yn iawn i sôn am ysgolion o’r fath; yr wyf yn siŵr iddynt fod yn ardderchog. Serch hynny, ni allwn ddiystyru’r ffaith mai’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn aml mewn ardaloedd gwledig yw y bydd mwyafrif o rieni yn sydyn yn penderfynu nad oes arnynt eisiau anfon eu plant i ysgol arbennig mwyach am ba reswm bynnag. Bu hynny’n ffactor yn rhai o’r sefyllfaoedd diffyg ymarferoldeb, y bu’n rhaid i Sir Gaerfyrddin, Ceredigion a chynghorau eraill ymateb iddynt. Yr ydych yn iawn pan ddywedwch mai angen addysgol yw’r ffactor allweddol, a dywedais hynny yn fy ateb i’ch cwestiwn cyntaf. Dyna pam y credwn mewn polisi addysg sy’n seiliedig ar ffederasiwn o ysgolion, gydag athrawon teithiol yn dysgu ar ddydd Llun a dydd Mawrth mewn un ysgol, dydd Mercher a dydd Iau mewn ysgol arall, ac yn y blaen, i sicrhau y gweithredir y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Gobeithiwn mai dyna’r ffordd ymlaen i ysgolion gwledig.
To deliver your health targets, we need to recruit and retain staff of all kinds in the NHS. Therefore, what support can you give Powys Health Care NHS Trust to harmonise pay rates and to end the unfair system of local pay presided over by previous Conservative Ministers?
Er mwyn cyflawni’ch targedau ar iechyd, mae angen recriwtio a chadw staff o bob math yn y GIG. Felly, pa gefnogaeth allwch chi ei rhoi i Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gofal Iechyd Powys i sicrhau cyfraddau tâl cydradd a rhoi diwedd ar drefn annheg tâl lleol a weithredid gan Weinidogion Ceidwadol yn y gorffennol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
I was not aware that there were different pay rates in different parts of Wales for the same professional skills. However, we have markedly increased the number of medical students and student nurses training in Wales. There are now approximately 450 medical students and 500 student nurses in Wales, which is a big jump from the number training when the Conservative Government—to which you referred in marvellous terms, and I commend you on that, Kirsty—left office, and we took over. Obviously, there is a time lag because a medical school course is five and a half years long, nursing courses are three years long, and so on. It does not happen overnight.
Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod gwahanol gyfraddau tâl mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru am yr un sgiliau proffesiynol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol y nifer o fyfyrwyr meddygol a myfyrwyr nyrsio sy’n hyfforddi yng Nghymru. Erbyn hyn mae rhyw 450 o fyfyrwyr meddygol a 500 o fyfyrwyr nyrsio yng Nghymru, sy’n gynnydd sylweddol yn y nifer oedd yn hyfforddi pan ymadawodd y Llywodraeth Geidwadol—y cyfeiriasoch ati yn fendigedig, ac fe’ch cymeradwyaf am hynny, Kirsty—a phan ddaethom ni i rym. Yn amlwg, ceir oedi oherwydd mae cwrs mewn ysgol feddygaeth yn bum mlynedd a hanner o hyd, a chwrs nyrsio’n dair blynedd, ac ati. Nid yw’n digwydd dros nos.
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 9
Yr oeddwn yn gwrando yn ofalus ar eich ateb i Nick Bourne ynghylch y targedau yr ydych wedi’u gosod i’ch Llywodraeth mewn perthynas â’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Onid yw’r targedau hynny yn gyfyng, o ystyried anghenion difrifol y gwasanaeth iechyd? Yn ogystal, nid ydynt yn gysylltiedig ag amcanion eich maniffesto ar gyfer 1999. A dderbyniwch, felly, na fyddwch yn cyflawni amcanion eich maniffesto? A wnewch chi dderbyn hefyd na fydd y targedau yr ydych wedi’u gosod heddiw yn gwneud dim i sicrhau, er enghraifft, y llenwir y 135 o swyddi meddygon sydd yn wag ar hyn o bryd? Oni dderbyniwch fod angen rhaglen fwy cynhwysfawr na’r un yr ydych wedi’i gosod heddiw os ydym am newid y sefyllfa yn y gwasanaeth iechyd?
I listened carefully to your answer to Nick Bourne on the targets you have set your Government in relation to the health service. Are these targets not limited, considering the serious needs of the health service? In addition to that, they bear no relation to the objectives contained in your 1999 manifesto. Do you therefore accept that you will not achieve your manifesto’s pledges? Will you also accept that the targets you have set today will do nothing to ensure, for example, that the 135 vacant doctors’ posts for doctors are filled? Do you not accept that a more comprehensive programme than that which you have set out today is needed if we are to change the situation in the health service?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Credaf fod y sylw, gyda chefnogaeth pob plaid yn y Cynulliad, wedi symud o restrau aros i amseroedd aros. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi gosod targedau ac amseroedd aros i’r tri phrif gategori o ran triniaeth, sef triniaeth orthopedig, y galon a chataractau. Dengys y ffigurau diweddaraf, a gyhoeddwyd yn ystod wythnos olaf mis Mawrth, ychydig cyn gwyliau’r Pasg, fod nifer y cleifion sydd yn aros dros 12 mis am driniaeth ar y galon, wedi cwympo bron i 40 y cant. Mae nifer y cleifion orthopedig sydd yn aros dros 18 mis am driniaeth fel cleifion mewnol neu allanol wedi cwympo 10.6 y cant. Felly, mae’r sefyllfa yn gwella. Fodd bynnag, er gwaethaf y gwelliannau hyn, mae’n rhy gynnar i siarad am y sefyllfa a fydd yn bodoli ymhen blwyddyn.
I believe that the focus, with the support of all parties in the Assembly, has shifted from waiting lists to waiting times. That is why we have set the targets and waiting times for the three main categories of treatment, namely orthopaedic, cardiac and cataract operations. The latest figures, published during the last week of March, just before the Easter holiday, show that the number of patients waiting longer than 12 months for heart surgery has fallen by almost 40 per cent. The number of orthopaedic patients waiting longer than 18 months for in-patient or out-patient surgery has fallen by 10.6 per cent. Therefore, the situation is improving. However, despite these improvements, it is too early to speculate as to what the situation will be in a year’s time.
Derbyniaf fod categorïau ymhlith y rhestrau hyn lle mae’r amseroedd aros yn gostwng, ond eich nod yn 1999 oedd sicrhau na fyddai neb yn disgwyl am fwy na chwe mis am driniaeth allanol, na mwy na 18 mis am driniaeth fewnol. Onid yw hynny’n golygu, Brif Weinidog, fod eich amcanion yn 1999 bellach wedi mynd allan drwy’r ffenestr? A dderbyniwch fod y ffigurau hynny yn awr yn sylweddol uwch nag yr oeddynt pan ddaethoch i rym yn 1999? Onid yw’n wir hefyd fod nyrsys Cymru bellach wedi cael llond bol ar y Llywodraeth hon? Dengys arolwg a gyhoeddwyd yn y Nursing Times heddiw, sydd yn cynnwys ymatebion nyrsys o Gymru, na chredant fod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn ddiogel yn nwylo Llywodraeth Lafur. Mae 77 y cant ohonynt yn dweud na fyddent yn annog perthynas i chwilio am swydd yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac mae 60 y cant ohonynt yn dweud y byddent yn gadael y gwasanaeth pe bai’r cyfle ganddynt i wneud hynny. Blwyddyn sydd gennych i brofi i nyrsys Cymru fod gennych gynigion iddynt—beth yw’r rheiny?
I accept that there are categories within these lists where waiting times are falling, but your goal in 1999 was to ensure that no-one would wait longer than six months for out-patient treatment, or longer than 18 months for in-patient treatment. Does that not mean, First Minister, that the aims that you set in 1999 have now gone out of the window? Do you accept that those figures are now significantly higher than they were when you came to power in 1999? Is it not also true that Welsh nurses are now fed up with this Government? A survey published in the Nursing Times today, which included responses from Welsh nurses, found that they do not believe that the health service is safe in the hands of a Labour Government. Seventy-seven per cent say that they would not encourage a relative to seek employment in the health service, and 60 per cent say that, given the chance to leave the service, they would do so. You have a year to prove to Welsh nurses that you have something to offer them—what is that?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11
Yr wyf i’n delio mewn ffeithiau a ffigurau, nid yr arolygon barn yr ydych mor hoff ohonynt, Ieuan. Yr ydych yn dyfynnu’r wasg fel pe bai hynny’n bwysicach na’r ffeithiau a’r ffigurau—nid yw’n bwysicach. Mae gwelliannau yn digwydd. Buddsoddwyd arian mewn hyfforddi, defnyddir cyfalaf i brynu sganwyr ac ati, a chodir ysbytai newydd ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru. Credaf fod y rhain yn bwysicach nag arolygon barn. Bydd y ffaith bod 400 mwy o feddygon a 500 mwy o nyrsys na’r llynedd yn cael eu hyfforddi yng Nghymru yn codi morâl nyrsys a meddygon achos bydd cyflenwad digonol i gymryd lle y rhai a fydd yn ymddeol.
I deal in facts and figures, not the opinion polls that you seem so fond of, Ieuan. You quote the press as if that were more important than facts and figures—it is not. Improvements are being brought about. Investment is being made in training, capital is being used to buy scanners and so on, and new hospitals have been provided for the NHS in Wales. I believe that these are more important than opinion polls. The fact that Wales has seen an increase of 400 trainee doctors and 500 trainee nurses, as compared with last year, will lift the morale of doctors and nurses, because there will be a sufficient supply to replace those who will retire.
Rhyddid Gwybodaeth
Freedom of Information
How many issues or pieces of information issued by or on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government and individual Cabinet members have been considered as ‘commercially sensitive’ or ‘commercially confidential’ since the First Minister made a statement on freedom of information in March 2000? (OAQ16836)
Faint o faterion neu ddarnau o wybodaeth a ryddhawyd gan neu ar ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ac aelodau unigol o’r Cabinet, a gafodd eu hystyried yn ‘sensitif yn fasnachol’ neu’n ‘gyfrinachol yn fasnachol’ ers i Brif Weinidog Cymru wneud datganiad ar ryddid gwybodaeth ym mis Mawrth 2000? (OAQ16836)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
Requests for information are dealt with on a case by case basis. We do not hold information centrally on this topic. Our initial thoughts are that this information could only be obtained at disproportionate costs.
Ymdrinnir â cheisiadau am wybodaeth fesul achos. Nid ydym yn dal gwybodaeth yn ganolog ar y pwnc hwn. Ein hymateb cychwynnol yw y byddai cael y wybodaeth hon yn achosi costau anghymesur.
We can be rightly proud of the Assembly, not least because it gives unparalleled access to Government information, as with your decision to release Cabinet papers and to impose the ‘substantial harm’ test on releasing documents. However, do you not feel that the use of commercial confidentiality is undermining the overall commitment to transparent Government? The Nolan report requires openness and accountability in public life. Does the First Minister have a view on whether a conflict of interest exists between the Assembly’s use of commercial confidentiality and the principles outlined in the Nolan report? Will you also assure me that I will not have to ask a plethora of questions to find out when the data ceases to be confidentially sensitive?
Mae bob hawl gennym i ymfalchïo yn y Cynulliad, nid yn lleiaf am ei fod yn rhoi mynediad heb ei ail at wybodaeth y Llywodraeth, megis eich penderfyniad i ryddhau papurau’r Cabinet a gosod y prawf ‘niwed sylweddol’ ar ryddhau dogfennau. Serch hynny, oni theimlwch fod y modd y defnyddir cyfrinachedd masnachol yn tanseilio’r ymrwymiad cyffredinol i Lywodraeth dryloyw? Mae adroddiad Nolan yn galw am fod yn agored ac yn atebol mewn bywyd cyhoeddus. A oes gan Brif Weinidog Cymru farn ynghylch a oes gwrthdaro buddiannau rhwng defnydd y Cynulliad o gyfrinachedd masnachol a’r egwyddorion a amlinellir yn adroddiad Nolan? A wnewch chi fy sicrhau hefyd na fydd raid imi ofyn llwyth o gwestiynau er mwyn canfod pa bryd y peidia’r data â bod yn gyfrinachol sensitif?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
As I said Alison, this is considered on a case by case basis. If you want to raise a particular case with me, I would be happy to consider it. I do not know of any conflict between freedom of information dispensation and commercial confidentiality anywhere in the world, including in Sweden, whose Government administers the most open and longstanding freedom of information dispensation. Commercially confidential matters must remain confidential. For instance, when a company wins a tender in an open competition, that is the basis on which it will do business. That tender would have been advertised throughout Europe in the contracts supplement of the Official Journal of the European Communities. Companies win tenders on that basis. To say that they must also agree to make public all the conditions involved in the contract, the price paid and so on is, in my opinion, quite a considerable additional burden. It is not applied in any other country in the world that has a strong freedom of information dispensation.
Fel y dywedais, Alison, ystyrir hyn fesul achos. Os hoffech godi achos penodol gyda mi, byddwn yn hapus i’w ystyried. Ni wn am unrhyw wrthdaro rhwng caniatáu rhyddid gwybodaeth a chyfrinachedd masnachol yn unman yn y byd, gan gynnwys yn Sweden, y mae ei Llywodraeth yn gweinyddu’r trefniant rhyddid gwybodaeth mwyaf agored a mwyaf hirhoedlog. Rhaid i faterion masnachol gyfrinachol aros yn gyfrinachol. Er enghraifft, pan fydd cwmni’n ennill tendr mewn cystadleuaeth agored, dyna’r sail y bydd yn gwneud busnes arni. Buasai’r tendr hwnnw wedi’i hysbysebu ledled Ewrop yn atodiad contractau’r Official Journal of the European Communities. Ar y sail honno y bydd cwmnïau’n ennill tendrau. Mae dweud bod yn rhaid iddynt gytuno hefyd i gyhoeddi’r holl amodau sydd ynghlwm yn y contract, y pris a dalwyd ac ati, yn fy marn i, yn faich ychwanegol eithaf sylweddol. Nid yw’n digwydd mewn unrhyw wlad arall yn y byd sydd â threfniant rhyddid gwybodaeth cadarn.
The cost of building the A55 across Anglesey was approximately £100 million. A total of £13 million was incurred in tolls in its first year, and these tolls must be paid for a further 27 years. That could lead to an estimated cost to the taxpayer of £364 million. When inquiries were made about those shadow tolls, your officials initially claimed that the details were commercially confidential. Why?
Costiodd yr A55 ar draws Môn oddeutu £100 miliwn i’w adeiladu. Talwyd cyfanswm o £13 miliwn mewn tollau yn ei blwyddyn gyntaf, a rhaid talu’r tollau hyn am 27 mlynedd eto. Amcangyfrifir y gallai hynny arwain at gost i’r trethdalwr o £364 miliwn. Pan ymholwyd am y tollau cysgodol hynny, honnodd eich swyddogion i ddechrau fod y manylion yn fasnachol gyfrinachol. Pam?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
That is how freedom of information works: you apply for information and you are given a reply. The reply can sometimes be based on a request by a company not to disclose information. The request is then given further consideration and it may eventually be decided to disclose the information. The request may, on occasion, be determined by the ombudsman, who may reach a finding of maladministration. Your unfamiliarity with the processes of government, Janet, leads me to conclude that you think that all information should automatically be made available. You must ask for it. The initial reply may be ‘no’; if you press further the reply could be ‘yes’. If the reply is still ‘no’ you must then apply to the ombudsman. That was the basis of my statement in March last year. I do not know whether you were in the Chamber on that day; perhaps you were not listening. The purpose of the system that I announced was to give power to the ombudsman to overrule Ministers on the disclosure of information which is deemed to be commercially sensitive or is, in some way, not covered by the Freedom of Information Act 2000. That is how the system works, Janet. I am sorry that you do not like it, do not understand it, or have not tried to understand it; please do better next time.
Dyna sut mae rhyddid gwybodaeth yn gweithio: gwnewch gais am wybodaeth a rhoddir ateb ichi. Gall yr ateb weithiau fod yn seiliedig ar gais gan gwmni i beidio â datgelu gwybodaeth. Wedyn rhoddir ystyriaeth bellach i’r cais ac efallai y penderfynir datgelu’r wybodaeth yn y diwedd. Gall y cais, weithiau, gael ei benderfynu gan yr ombwdsmon, a all ganfod camweinyddu. Mae’ch anghynefindra â phrosesau llywodraeth, Janet, yn fy arwain at y casgliad eich bod yn meddwl y dylid sicrhau bod pob gwybodaeth ar gael yn awtomatig. Rhaid ichi ofyn amdani. Efallai mai ‘na’ fydd yr ateb cyntaf; os pwyswch ymhellach gellid dweud ‘ie’. Os mai ‘na’ yw’r ateb o hyd, rhaid ichi wedyn wneud cais i’r ombwdsmon. Dyna oedd sail fy natganiad ym mis Mawrth y llynedd. Ni wn a oeddech yn y Siambr ar y diwrnod hwnnw; efallai nad oeddech yn gwrando. Pwrpas y drefn a gyhoeddais oedd rhoi grym i’r ombwdsmon ddyfarnu yn erbyn Gweinidogion ar ddatgeliad gwybodaeth y dyfernir ei bod yn fasnachol sensitif neu sydd, mewn rhyw fodd, y tu allan i ddarpariaethau Deddf Rhyddid Gwybodaeth 2000. Dyna sut mae’r drefn yn gweithio, Janet. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad ydych yn ei hoffi, nad ydych yn ei deall, neu nad ydych wedi ceisio’i deall; ceisiwch wneud yn well y tro nesaf, da chi.
Allgáu Cymdeithasol
Social Exclusion
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar fesurau i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru? (OAQ16809)
Will the First Minister make a statement on measures to tackle social exclusion in Wales? (OAQ16809)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13
Cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yw un o egwyddorion pwysicaf Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Paratown adroddiad blynyddol ar y pwnc a chyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad diwethaf ym mis Mawrth eleni. Dengys hynny sut y deliwn â’r agenda hwn. Ymhlith yr agweddau pwysicaf ar hynny y mae swyddi, ac yr wyf yn falch bod diweithdra yng Nghymru wedi disgyn 0.5 y cant. Mae’r cwymp hwnnw ymhlith y gorau, os nad y gorau, ym Mhrydain Fawr. Mae hynny’n bwysig o safbwynt economaidd. Mae agweddau eraill ar anfantais gymdeithasol, ac yr ydym yn delio â hwy drwy gyfrwng rhaglenni eraill.
Social inclusion is one of the Assembly Government’s most important principles. We prepare an annual report on the subject, the latest of which was published in March of this year. This demonstrates our commitment to this agenda. Employment is one of the most important aspects, and I am pleased that unemployment in Wales has fallen by 0.5 per cent. That represents one of the most significant, if not the most significant, reductions in Great Britain. That is important in economic terms. There are other aspects to social disadvantage, and we are addressing them by way of other programmes.
A gytunwch ag erthygl ddiweddar yn The Guardian, a nododd fod y gronfa grantiau Cymorth a sefydlwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Jane Hutt, yn ffordd syml ac effeithiol o fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, a’i bod yn llawer gwell na’r ddarpariaeth yn Lloegr? A gytunwch fod angen inni flaenoriaethu mesurau i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant yng nghymunedau Cymru?
Do you agree with a recent article in The Guardian, which stated that the Cymorth grant fund established by the Minister for Health and Social Services, Jane Hutt, is a simple and effective way of addressing child poverty, and that it is far superior to the provision in England? Do you agree that we must prioritise measures to address child poverty in Welsh communities?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14
Credaf fod cyfuno sawl rhaglen yn gam sylweddol ymlaen. Y pum rhaglen sy’n cael eu cyfuno yw y grant chwarae, y strategaeth gofal plant, y fenter mynediad i ieuenctid, y gronfa bartneriaeth plant ac ieuenctid a Cychwyn Cadarn. O fis Ebrill 2003, caiff y pum rhaglen hyn eu cynnwys o fewn un rhaglen, sef Cymorth. Anfantais ymhlith plant yw’r anfantais pwysicaf i ddelio ag ef, a chredaf y bydd ein rhaglenni yn fwy effeithiol wedi inni eu cyfuno’n un rhaglen. Nid yn unig fe gawn fwy o werth am ein harian, ond gallwn hefyd ddelio’n fwy effeithiol â phroblemau plant fel na fyddant yn wynebu’r un problemau fel oedolion.
I believe that combining several programmes is a significant step forward. The five programmes being combined are the play grant, the childcare strategy, the youth access initiative, the children and youth partnership fund and Sure Start. From April 2003, these five programmes will be incorporated into one programme, namely Cymorth. Disadvantage among children is the most important type of disadvantage to tackle, and I believe that our programmes will be more effective when they are combined into one programme. Not only will we get better value for money, but we will also deal more effectively with children’s problems, so that they do not carry those same problems into adulthood.
Yr wyf yn falch o glywed consýrn y Prif Weinidog am blant dan anfantais a phlant sy’n cael eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol. A yw’n derbyn bod polisi Llywodraeth Lafur San Steffan o breifateiddio gwasanaethau yn golygu bod plant mewn etholaethau fel fy etholaeth i yn dioddef oherwydd bod hyn yn arwain at ganoli gwasanaethau? A yw’n derbyn felly fod plant mewn ardaloedd gwledig a chymoedd ôl-ddiwydiannol yn cael eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol oherwydd nad yw’r gwasanaethau ar gael iddynt? A wnaiff ymrwymo Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod gwasanaethau ar gael i blant yng Nghymru yn ôl yr angen?
I am pleased to hear the First Minister’s concern for disadvantaged and socially excluded children. Does he accept that the Labour Government in Westminster’s policy of privatising services means that children in constituencies such as mine suffer because this leads to the centralisation of services? Does he therefore accept that children in rural areas and post-industrial valleys are socially excluded because services are not available to them? Will he commit the Government of Wales to ensuring that services are available to the children of Wales when and where they are needed?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14
Wrth gwrs. Efallai y gall Rhodri Glyn ysgrifennu ataf ar hyn, gan na roddodd esiampl o’r hyn y mae’n ei olygu. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf 100 y cant â’r egwyddorion a fynegodd.
Of course. Perhaps Rhodri Glyn could write to me on this, as he did not give an example of what he means. However, I agree 100 per cent with the principles that he expressed.
Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol
Community Legal Service
What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the development of the Community Legal Service in Wales? (OAQ16814)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Prif Weinidog Cymru ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch datblygu’r Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol yng Nghymru? (OAQ16814)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I have not discussed the Community Legal Service in Wales with the Secretary of State for Wales, because it is a matter for the Lord Chancellor’s department.
Nid wyf wedi trafod y Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol yng Nghymru gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, oherwydd mater i adran yr Arglwydd Ganghellor ydyw.
As Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council was an associate pioneer authority for the Community Legal Service in Wales, do you agree that the establishment of an outreach centre in Pontardawe will complement the Assembly’s anti-poverty, social inclusion, and community regeneration strategies?
Gan fod Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot wedi bod yn awdurdod a arloesodd Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol yng Nghymru ar y cyd, a ydych yn cytuno y bydd sefydlu canolfan ymestyn ym Mhontardawe yn ategu strategaethau’r Cynulliad yn erbyn tlodi a thros gynhwysiant cymdeithasol ac adfywio cymunedau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Yes. It is important to ensure that we have an effective, accessible legal advice system which is available on a non-profit basis where the normal legal system does not extend. For that reason, I helped to launch the Lord Chancellor’s service two years ago, not long after I became First Minister. I commend how the citizen advice bureaux—which have a crucial role in this—continue to deliver the basis for that legal advice, and frequently provide the host area where people who have perhaps never been in a conventional solicitor’s office, let alone a barrister’s chambers, can access legal advice.
Ydwyf. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod gennym system gyngor cyfreithiol effeithiol a hygyrch, sydd ar gael ar sail ddi-elw lle nad yw’r system gyfreithiol arferol yn cyrraedd. Am y rheswm hwnnw, helpais lansio gwasanaeth yr Arglwydd Ganghellor ddwy flynedd yn ôl, yn fuan wedi imi ddod yn Brif Weinidog Cymru. Cymeradwyaf y modd y mae’r canolfannau cynghori—sydd â rôl allweddol yn hyn o beth—yn parhau i ddarparu’r sail ar gyfer y cyngor cyfreithiol hwnnw, ac yn aml yn darparu’r lleoliad lle gall pobl na fuont erioed efallai mewn swyddfa cyfreithiwr cyffredin, heb sôn am siambrau bargyfreithiwr, gael cyngor cyfreithiol.
While recognising the valuable contribution of the Community Legal Service, are you concerned about the independence of the service because of the involvement of local authorities in the process?
Tra’n cydnabod cyfraniad gwerthfawr y Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol, a ydych yn bryderus ynghylch annibyniaeth y gwasanaeth oherwydd ymwneud awdurdodau lleol yn y broses?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I have not heard any allegations about this, Peter. You may want to write to me if you have any suspicions or allegations to raise; I would be interested to hear from you if you do. We are not aware of anyone alleging that there is a conflict of interest because the local authority is a body that could be sued and is also involved in the process of providing the Community Legal Service.
Ni chlywais unrhyw honiadau am hyn, Peter. Efallai y dymunech ysgrifennu ataf os oes gennych unrhyw amheuon neu honiadau i’w codi; byddai gennyf ddiddordeb mewn clywed oddi wrthych os oes gennych. Nid ydym yn ymwybodol bod neb yn honni gwrthdaro buddiannau oherwydd fod yr awdurdod lleol yn gorff y gellid ei erlyn a’i fod hefyd yn ymwneud â’r broses o ddarparu’r Gwasanaeth Cyfreithiol Cymunedol.
Trosglwyddo Swyddogaethau i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Transfer of Functions to the National Assembly for Wales
Will the First Minister make a statement on what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Wales over the last three months regarding further transfer of functions from Westminster to the National Assembly? (OAQ16823)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ba drafodaethau y mae wedi’u cael ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru dros y tri mis diwethaf ynghylch trosglwyddo rhagor o swyddogaethau o San Steffan i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? (OAQ16823)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I have discussed this issue a number of times with the Secretary of State for Wales over the past three months and, as you will know, European social fund responsibilities have already been transferred to the Assembly. We are also asking for animal health responsibilities and certain police functions to be transferred. Consideration is also being given to the possibility of acquiring planning functions in respect of power stations of over 50 MW capacity.
Yr wyf wedi trafod y mater hwn sawl gwaith gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru dros y tri mis diwethaf ac, fel y gwyddoch, mae cyfrifoldebau ynghylch cronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop eisoes wedi’u trosglwyddo i’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym hefyd yn gofyn am drosglwyddo cyfrifoldebau iechyd anifeiliaid a rhai o swyddogaethau’r heddlu. Mae ystyriaeth yn cael ei rhoi hefyd i bosibilrwydd ymgymryd â swyddogaethau cynllunio yng nghyswllt gorsafoedd pŵer â chapasiti dros 50 MW.
In light of the increasing concern about the possibility of local teachers’ pay scales being introduced in England and the inequity that that would bring about, will your Government reconsider its decision not to seek devolution of responsibility for teachers’ pay and conditions at this time, given that circumstances have changed?
Yn wyneb y pryder cynyddol ynghylch y posibilrwydd y cyflwynir cyfraddau tâl lleol i athrawon yn Lloegr a’r anghyfartaledd y byddai hynny’n ei achosi, a wnaiff eich Llywodraeth ailystyried ei phenderfyniad i beidio â gofyn am ddatganoli cyfrifoldeb am dâl ac amodau athrawon ar hyn o bryd, gan fod amgylchiadau wedi newid?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
We are not considering that. You will remember my previous answers on this subject, in which I referred to the 150 civil servants in Northern Ireland whose sole function is to deal with teachers’ pay and conditions. As Wales has a substantially larger number of teachers, we are talking about a minimum of 200 additional civil servants. I would rather that the salaries of those 200 additional civil servants be spent on the front line in schools.
Nid ydym yn ystyried hynny. Cofiwch fy atebion blaenorol ar y pwnc hwn, pan y cyfeiriais at y 150 o weision sifil yng Ngogledd Iwerddon sydd â’r unig swyddogaeth o ddelio â thâl ac amodau athrawon. Gan fod gan Gymru nifer sylweddol fwy o athrawon, yr ydym yn sôn am o leiaf 200 o weision sifil ychwanegol. Byddai’n well gennyf i gyflogau’r 200 gwas sifil ychwanegol hynny gael eu gwario yn y rheng flaen mewn ysgolion.
You referred to the transfer of powers to the Assembly to decide on power stations of over 50 MW capacity such as substantial windfarms. At what stage are the discussions on that and what are the technicalities, to which you have referred in the past, that prevent you from reaching a conclusion? Do you think that the tendency in the Assembly to call in applications for windfarms of a smaller size and not to decide on them for up to over four years is an impediment to arriving at the conclusion that we all want?
Cyfeiriasoch at drosglwyddo i’r Cynulliad bwerau i benderfynu ar orsafoedd pŵer â chapasiti dros 50 MW, fel ffermydd gwynt mawr. Ar ba gam y mae’r trafodaethau ar hynny a beth yw’r materion technegol, y cyfeiriasoch atynt yn y gorffennol, sy’n eich rhwystro rhag dod i gasgliad? A ydych yn meddwl bod y duedd yn y Cynulliad i alw ceisiadau am ffermydd gwynt llai i mewn a pheidio â phenderfynu arnynt am hyd at dros bedair blynedd yn rhwystr i gyrraedd y casgliad y mae pawb ohonom yn ei ddeisyfu?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
That is a slightly extreme point, Glyn, given that the Assembly has only been in existence for two and three-quarter years. No doubt you have some examples that you could throw at us, but it is clear that they could not all relate to the Assembly. The consultation is ongoing, but it does not relate solely to the Assembly and the industry in Wales. If you ask Whitehall and Westminster to transfer a function, then consultation must also take place there. We are now at the stage of seeking to persuade Whitehall and Westminster that this is a good idea, following consultation with other stakeholders such as the industry. If your allegation is true, then your point will be raised when the windfarm industry is consulted. That will happen at a later stage.
Dyna bwynt eithafol braidd, Glyn, o ystyried mai dim ond ers dwy flynedd a thri chwarter y mae’r Cynulliad yn bodoli. Diau fod gennych enghreifftiau y gallech eu taflu atom, ond mae’n glir na allent i gyd fod yn berthnasol i’r Cynulliad. Mae’r ymgynghori’n parhau, ond nid yw’n ymwneud yn unig â’r Cynulliad a’r diwydiant yng Nghymru. Os gofynnwch i Whitehall a San Steffan drosglwyddo swyddogaeth, yna rhaid i ymgynghori ddigwydd yn y fan honno hefyd. Yr ydym yn awr wedi cyrraedd y cam o geisio darbwyllo Whitehall a San Steffan fod hyn yn syniad da, wedi ymgynghori â rhanddeiliaid eraill fel y diwydiant. Os yw’ch honiad yn wir, yna codir wich pwynt pan ymgynghorir â’r diwydiant ffermydd gwynt. Bydd hynny’n digwydd yn ddiweddarach.
In his meetings with the Secretary of State, has the First Minister discussed transferring Don Touhig’s monthly letter to Cardiff? Does the First Minister agree that while he presides over this chaotic Government, we should consider transferring powers in the other direction?
Yn ei gyfarfodydd gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, a yw Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi trafod trosglwyddo llythyr misol Don Touhig i Gaerdydd? A ydyw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno y dylem ystyried trosglwyddo pwerau i’r cyfeiriad arall tra’i fod ef yn arwain y Llywodraeth ddi-drefn hon?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
I am not sure that those propositions are compatible, Rod, but that has never held you back in the past. I am not sure what you are referring to, since you are again throwing the odd adjective around without quoting examples. This administration can hold its head up high on any test of efficiency, and I would be pleased to compare your ministerial record with that of this Government in any respect; I am sure that we would come out favourably.
Nid wyf yn siŵr fod y cynigion hynny’n cyd-fynd, Rod, ond nid yw hynny erioed wedi’ch dal yn ôl yn y gorffennol. Nid wyf yn siŵr at beth yr ydych yn cyfeirio, gan eich bod eto yn lluchio ambell ansoddair o gwmpas heb ddyfynnu enghreifftiau. Gall y weinyddiaeth hon ddal ei phen yn uchel ar unrhyw brawf o effeithlonrwydd, a byddwn yn falch o gymharu’ch record chi fel gweinidog ag un y Llywodraeth hon mewn unrhyw fater; yr wyf yn siŵr y deuem allan yn ffafriol.
Caniatáu i Bensiynwyr a Phobl Anabl Deithio am ddim ar Fysiau
Free Bus Travel for Pensioners and Disabled People
Has the First Minister received any feedback on his Welsh Assembly Government’s policy of free bus travel for pensioners and disabled people in Wales since its implementation earlier this month? (OAQ16835)
A yw Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi cael unrhyw adborth ar bolisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o ganiatáu i bensiynwyr a phobl anabl yng Nghymru deithio am ddim ar fysiau ers i’r polisi ddod i rym yn gynharach y mis hwn? (OAQ16835)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I think that I can speak without fear of contradiction in saying that this has been the most warmly received policy initiative since the commencement of the Assembly in May 1999. It has received warm approval from pensioners and disabled people. Disabled people can not only get a free bus pass, they can opt for vouchers if they are too disabled to access buses. That is their decision. There have been a few moans from some bus operators claiming that because so many pensioners were using the buses there was no room for anyone else. In a way, that is part of its purpose, because it will lead to the provision of more bus services. That is a benefit for people who are neither pensioners nor disabled; they will have the advantage of possibly more viable bus services and bus services being provided where previously they were considered to be marginal and not worth providing. There are advantages for everyone, as well as for the environment.
Yr wyf yn meddwl y gallaf siarad heb ofni i neb anghytuno pan ddywedaf mai hwn yw’r polisi newydd a gafodd y croeso mwyaf gwresog ers cychwyn y Cynulliad ym Mai 1999. Mae wedi derbyn cymeradwyaeth frwd gan bensiynwyr a phobl anabl. Gall pobl anabl gael tocyn bws am ddim, neu gallant ddewis talebau os ydynt yn rhy anabl i fynd ar fws. Eu penderfyniad hwy yw hynny. Cafwyd ambell gŵyn gan rai cwmnïau bysiau yn honni bod cymaint o bensiynwyr yn defnyddio’r bysiau fel nad oedd lle i neb arall. Mewn ffordd, dyna ran o’i bwrpas, oherwydd bydd yn arwain at ddarparu mwy o wasanaethau bysiau. Dyna fantais i bobl nad ydynt yn bensiynwyr nac yn anabl; cânt y fantais o wasanaethau bysiau sydd efallai’n fwy hyfyw a gwasanaethau bysiau wedi’u darparu lle’r ystyrid gynt eu bod yn ymylol ac nad oedd yn werth eu rhedeg. Mae manteision i bawb, yn ogystal ag i’r amgylchedd.
You have virtually answered my supplementary question, which is—[Interruption.] The howls of derision amaze me, because thousands of pensioners in my constituency benefit from this Government policy. I cannot understand why members of other parties think that it is a derisory policy.
Yr ydych fwy neu lai wedi ateb fy nghwestiwn atodol, sef—[Torri ar draws.] Mae’r bloeddio gwatwarus yn fy rhyfeddu, oherwydd mae miloedd o bensiynwyr yn fy etholaeth i ar eu hennill gyda’r polisi hwn gan y Llywodraeth. Ni allaf ddeall pam y mae aelodau pleidiau eraill yn meddwl ei fod yn bolisi chwerthinllyd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
If you have a supplementary question, we would like to hear it now.
Os oes gennych gwestiwn atodol, hoffem ei glywed yn awr.
I am coming to it, Presiding Officer. Rhodri, we have provided bus companies with an ideal opportunity to increase their services. Can we plead with them to increase services in the Valleys areas, such as my Ogmore constituency, so that more pensioners and disabled people can benefit from this policy?
Yr wyf yn dod ato, Lywydd. Rhodri, yr ydym wedi darparu cyfle delfrydol i gwmnïau bysiau gynyddu’u gwasanaethau. A gawn ni erfyn arnynt i gynyddu gwasanaethau yn ardaloedd y Cymoedd, fel fy etholaeth i yn Ogwr, fel y gall mwy o bensiynwyr a phobl anabl elwa ar y polisi hwn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
If the allegations that people cannot get onto buses because they are full of pensioners are true, then fine—provide more bus services. This policy is driven by a desire to encourage the use of public transport over private transport. That is a good policy, in line with our overarching commitment to sustainable development, about which much more will be heard tomorrow.
Os yw’r honiadau fod pobl yn methu mynd ar fysiau am eu bod yn llawn o bensiynwyr yn wir, yna iawn—darparer rhagor o wasanaethau bysiau. Gyrrir y polisi hwn gan awydd i annog pobl i ddefnyddio cludiant cyhoeddus dros gludiant preifat. Mae hynny’n bolisi da, yn unol â’n hymrwymiad cyffredinol i ddatblygu cynaliadwy, y clywir llawer mwy amdano yfory.
While I warmly welcome this policy—as I also represent a constituency where there are few car owners—I also want to consider it in a more hard-headed way. Rhodri, can you give an indication of the cost of this policy to date? Is enough money available to run it throughout the year?
Tra’n croesawu’r polisi hwn yn fawr—gan fy mod innau’n cynrychioli etholaeth lle nad oes llawer o bobl yn berchen ceir—hoffwn hefyd ei ystyried mewn ffordd fwy ymarferol. Rhodri, a allwch roi syniad o gost y polisi hwn hyd yma? A oes digon o arian ar gael i’w redeg drwy gydol y flwyddyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
My understanding is that the answer is ‘yes’. Local authorities have co-operated superbly with one another and with us in implementing this policy from 1 April and 2 April 2002, and they have been given an additional £18 million to help fund the new mandatory scheme. We believe that that is an adequate amount; it is based on figures provided by local authorities and bus services.
Fy nealltwriaeth i yw mai ‘oes’ yw’r ateb. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol wedi cydweithredu’n wych gyda’i gilydd a gyda ni i weithredu’r polisi hwn o 1 Ebrill a 2 Ebrill 2002, a rhoddwyd £18 miliwn yn ychwanegol iddynt i’w helpu i dalu am y cynllun gorfodol newydd. Credwn fod hynny’n swm digonol; mae’n seiliedig ar ffigurau a ddarparwyd gan awdurdodau lleol a gwasanaethau bysiau.
To pay a further compliment to local authorities, this scheme is remarkable. Cardiff had a scheme—and I saw a letter in the Daily Post saying ‘there is nothing special about this’—and Liverpool and London have schemes, but they are exclusive to the local authority that runs them. The Welsh scheme is unique because the pass can be used in other parts of Wales. If you come from Cardiff, but find yourself in Llandudno, your pass is valid there. That was not the case previously. That is also the unknown factor. We do not know the consequences of running a scheme based on inter-operable validity: that is, in whichever part of Wales you are, you can use your pass.
I ganmol yr awdurdodau lleol ymhellach, mae’r cynllun hwn yn un hynod. Yr oedd gan Gaerdydd gynllun—a gwelais lythyr yn y Daily Post yn dweud ‘does dim byd arbennig am hyn’—ac mae gan Lerpwl a Llundain gynlluniau, ond maent yn gyfyngedig i’r awdurdod lleol sy’n eu rhedeg. Mae cynllun Cymru’n unigryw oherwydd gellir defnyddio’r tocyn mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Os ydych o Gaerdydd, ond yn eich cael eich hun yn Llandudno, mae’ch tocyn yn ddilys yno. Nid oedd hynny’n wir o’r blaen. Dyna’r ffactor anhysbys hefyd. Ni wyddom beth fydd canlyniadau rhedeg cynllun seiliedig ar ddilysrwydd rhyngweithredol: hynny yw, lle bynnag y byddwch yng Nghymru, gallwch ddefnyddio’ch tocyn.
Cymorth y Cynulliad i Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru
Assembly Support for the South Wales Police Authority
What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales about Assembly support for the South Wales Police Authority? (OAQ16834)
Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cael ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch cymorth y Cynulliad i Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru? (OAQ16834)
I am sorry that this is not a sycophantic question—
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad yw hwn yn gwestiwn sebonllyd—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
Order. Members will know—although there has been a long Easter break—that it is not customary to add to oral questions.
Trefn. Bydd Aelodau’n gwybod—er inni gael egwyl hir dros y Pasg—nad yw’n arferiad ychwanegu at gwestiynau llafar.
I thought that I would add a warning. I am sorry.
Yr oeddwn yn meddwl y byddwn yn ychwanegu rhybudd. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
I regularly meet with the Secretary of State for Wales, and discuss a wide range of issues, including police funding.
Byddaf yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ac yn trafod amrediad eang o faterion, yn cynnwys cyllid yr heddlu.
In that case, you will be aware that the South Wales Police Authority is funded considerably less generously than police authorities of a similar size in England. That discrepancy has been exacerbated by the failure to implement changes to the funding formula, promised by a Labour Minister. Given the growing crime rate in Wales, will you ask your officials to examine the levels of funding for police authorities of similar sizes around the UK? If you discover—as I am sure you will—that police in Wales receive less funding than police in England, will you take steps to redress the imbalance?
Os felly, byddwch yn ymwybodol y cyllidir Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru gryn dipyn yn llai haelionus nag awdurdodau heddlu tebyg eu maint yn Lloegr. Gwaethygwyd yr anghysondeb hwnnw gan y methiant i wneud newidiadau i’r fformiwla gyllido, a addawyd gan Weinidog Llafur. O ystyried y twf mewn troseddu yng Nghymru, a wnewch chi ofyn i’ch swyddogion archwilio lefelau cyllido awdurdodau heddlu tebyg eu maint o gwmpas y DU? Os darganfyddwch—fel y gwnewch, yr wyf yn siŵr—fod yr heddlu yng Nghymru’n cael llai o arian na’r heddlu yn Lloegr, a wnewch chi gymryd camau i gywiro’r anghydbwysedd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
The South Wales Police Authority set a budget for this year of around £195 million—an increase of 3.2 per cent on the previous year. In Wales, unlike in England, we have allowed police authorities to retain resources that were previously used to pay levies to the National Crime Squad and the National Criminal Intelligence Service. That gives them a windfall increase of £4 million—including 1 per cent on their budgets. That contrasts with the situation in England, so I do not recognise the picture that you paint.
Gosododd Heddlu’r De gyllideb eleni o ryw £195 miliwn—sef cynnydd o 3.2 y cant ar y llynedd. Yng Nghymru, yn wahanol i Loegr, yr ydym wedi caniatáu i awdurdodau heddlu gadw adnoddau a ddefnyddid gynt i dalu ardollau i’r Heddlu Troseddau Cenedlaethol a’r Gwasanaeth Gwybodaeth Droseddol Genedlaethol. Mae hynny’n rhoi cynnydd annisgwyl iddynt o £4 miliwn—yn cynnwys 1 y cant ar eu cyllidebau. Mae hynny’n gwrthgyferbynnu â’r sefyllfa yn Lloegr, felly nid wyf yn cydnabod y darlun a beintiwch.
This year, Welsh police forces are receiving increases well above the English average. That is because the Assembly’s contribution—£146.5 million, which is an increase of 4 per cent—is significantly greater than the equivalent support for English forces. The only problem for South Wales Police is funding the policing of special events, such as the FA Cup final. We are aware that it presented a preliminary case to the Home Office for special funding for policing special events around the Millennium Stadium and so on. However, we are not aware that it has submitted its final case to the Home Office yet, but should the South Wales Police satisfy the criteria, that is, where its additional costs exceed 1 per cent of the force’s annual budget, I would welcome the opportunity to offer the Assembly Government’s support for its submission.
Eleni, mae arian heddluoedd Cymru’n cynyddu llawer uwch na chyfartaledd Lloegr. Y rheswm yw bod cyfraniad y Cynulliad—£146.5 miliwn, sef cynnydd o 4 y cant—yn sylweddol fwy na’r cymorth cyfatebol i heddluoedd Lloegr. Yr unig broblem i Heddlu De Cymru yw talu am blismona digwyddiadau arbennig, fel rownd derfynol Cwpan yr FA. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol eu bod wedi cyflwyno achos rhagarweiniol i’r Swyddfa Gartref am gyllid arbennig ar gyfer plismona digwyddiadau arbennig o gwmpas Stadiwm y Mileniwm ac ati. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn ymwybodol eu bod wedi cyflwyno’u hachos terfynol i’r Swyddfa Gartref eto, ond pe bai Heddlu De Cymru’n bodloni’r meini prawf, hynny yw, lle bo’r costau ychwanegol yn fwy nag 1 y cant o gyllideb flynyddol yr heddlu, byddwn i’n croesawu’r cyfle i gynnig cefnogaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i’w cais.
The South Wales Police Authority has called for your support as it struggles to fund police cover for the sporting events that you mentioned and for the Labour Party spring conference, which was held in Cardiff. It has also pledged to smash the drug cartels supplying heroin from Bristol to areas such as the south Wales Valleys, where addiction among young people is at epidemic levels. Given your answer to David Davies’s question, will you write in support of the police authority’s seeking those additional funds to enable it to deal with the problems of crime in south Wales?
Mae Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru wedi galw am eich cefnogaeth wrth iddo gael trafferth ariannu gwasanaeth yr heddlu ar gyfer y digwyddiadau chwaraeon y soniasoch amdanynt ac ar gyfer cynhadledd wanwyn y Blaid Lafur, a gynhaliwyd yng Nghaerdydd. Mae hefyd wedi addo chwalu’r cartels cyffuriau sy’n cyflenwi heroin o Fryste i ardaloedd fel Cymoedd y De, lle mae nifer y bobl ifanc sy’n gaeth i gyffuriau ar lefel epidemig. Yn wyneb eich ateb i gwestiwn David Davies, a wnewch chi ysgrifennu i gefnogi cais yr awdurdod heddlu am y cyllid ychwanegol hwnnw i’w alluogi i ddelio â phroblemau trosedd yn y De?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
I will consider the issue in relation to drugs. I probably read the same press report as you, Pauline, from the Chief Constable, Sir Anthony Burden. If there is a case for special funding, then it could be considered. However, I am not aware of any special application for financial assistance because Bristol is the hub for the supply of heroin and other hard drugs to the Valleys or elsewhere in Wales. As regards major events of the Wembley and the Millennium Stadium kind, we are not aware yet—as I said earlier—that it has submitted its final case, only the preliminary case. When it submits the final case, and provided that it shows that its additional costs are above 1 per cent of its total expenditure, we would welcome the opportunity to write to the Home Office in support of that.
Ystyriaf y cwestiwn mewn perthynas â chyffuriau. Mae’n debyg imi ddarllen yr un adroddiad yn y wasg â chi, Pauline, gan y Prif Gwnstabl, Syr Anthony Burden. Os oes achos dros gyllid arbennig, yna gellid ei ystyried. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw gais arbennig am gymorth ariannol am fod Bryste yn ganolbwynt cyflenwi heroin a chyffuriau caled eraill i’r Cymoedd neu rannau eraill o Gymru. O safbwynt digwyddiadau mawr o fath Wembley a Stadiwm y Mileniwm, nid ydym yn ymwybodol eto—fel y dywedais yn gynharach—ei fod wedi cyflwyno’i achos terfynol, dim ond yr achos rhagarweiniol. Pan gyflwynir yr achos terfynol, ac ar yr amod ei fod yn dangos fod ei gostau ychwanegol yn fwy nag 1 y cant o’i gyfanswm gwariant, byddem yn croesawu’r cyfle i ysgrifennu at y Swyddfa Gartref i gefnogi hynny.
Do you believe that South Wales Police will incur extra costs in dealing with the security threat posed by Simon Brooks in this week’s newspapers, and will you call on the Plaid Cymru leadership to condemn his threats outright?
A gredwch y bydd Heddlu De Cymru’n wynebu costau ychwanegol i ddelio â’r bygythiad i ddiogelwch a achoswyd gan Simon Brooks ym mhapurau newydd yr wythnos hon, ac a wnewch chi alw ar arweinwyr Plaid Cymru i gondemnio’i fygythiadau’n llwyr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
My first reaction to reading Simon Brooks’s call for civil disobedience was, ‘you and whose army?’ However, we must take it more seriously than that. All political parties should condemn a threat of civil disobedience, however obscure the group involved. I condemn it totally. It is the way to wreck the language’s chances of survival in the twenty-first century, and I am sure that all of us would condemn the threat of using civil disobedience to achieve one’s aims.
Fy ymateb cyntaf i wrth ddarllen galwad Simon Brooks am anufudd-dod sifil oedd, ‘ti a byddin pwy?’ Serch hynny, rhaid inni ei gymryd yn fwy o ddifrif na hynny. Dylai pob plaid wleidyddol gondemnio bygythiad o anufudd-dod sifil, waeth pa mor ddi-nod yw’r grŵp a’i gwna. Yr wyf fi’n ei gondemnio’n llwyr. Dyna’r ffordd i ddinistrio gobeithion yr iaith o oroesi yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pawb ohonom yn condemnio’r bygythiad i ddefnyddio anufudd-dod sifil fel modd o gyflawni amcanion.
Is-ddeddfwriaeth a fydd yn Destun y Weithdrefn Estynedig
Subordinate Legislation to be Subjected to the Extended Procedure
Will the First Minister make a statement on the criteria used by his administration to identify subordinate legislation to be subjected to the extended procedure? (OAQ16812)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y meini prawf a ddefnyddir gan ei weinyddiaeth i nodi is-ddeddfwriaeth a fydd yn destun y weithdrefn estynedig? (OAQ16812)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Ministers’ recommendations to the Business Committee under Standing Order No. 22.5 reflect their judgment as to the degree of scrutiny Members may want to exercise in relation to individual draft statutory instruments. Account is then taken of any representations that Members may have made, either following notification under Standing Order No. 22.1 or from Subject Committee members following prior consideration or notification of proposed draft instruments. Ultimately, it is for the Deputy Presiding Officer, and not for me, to determine the question, having regard for any advice that the Business Committee may provide.
Mae argymhellion y Gweinidogion i’r Pwyllgor Busnes dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5 yn adlewyrchu eu barn ynghylch y radd o archwilio manwl y gall Aelodau ddymuno’i arfer mewn perthynas ag offerynnau statudol drafft unigol. Rhoddir ystyriaeth wedyn i unrhyw sylwadau y bydd Aelodau wedi’u cyflwyno, naill ai’n dilyn hysbysiad dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.1 neu gan aelodau Pwyllgorau Pwnc yn dilyn ystyriaeth neu hysbysiad ymlaen llaw o offerynnau drafft arfaethedig. Yn y pen draw, mater i’r Dirprwy Lywydd, ac nid i mi, yw penderfynu ar y cwestiwn, gan ystyried unrhyw gyngor a roddir gan y Pwyllgor Busnes.
Of the 400 plus pieces of subordinate legislation passed by the Assembly up to the beginning of the recess, only 10 have been subjected to the extended procedure, which means that they go to Committee. Four out of the seven Subject Committees—and this allows for the changes that have taken place to Subject Committees over time—have never looked at a piece of legislation under the extended procedure. Is that good enough for a body that is primarily supposed to examine and scrutinise subordinate legislation?
O’r 400 a mwy o ddarnau o is-ddeddfwriaeth a basiwyd gan y Cynulliad hyd at ddechrau’r gwyliau, dim ond 10 a fu’n destun y weithdrefn estynedig, sy’n golygu eu bod yn mynd i Bwyllgor. Mae pedwar o’r saith Pwyllgor Pwnc—ac mae hyn yn caniatáu am y newidiadau a ddigwyddodd i Bwyllgorau Pwnc dros amser—heb edrych ar ddarn o ddeddfwriaeth dan y weithdrefn estynedig erioed. A yw hyn yn ddigon da i gorff sydd yn bennaf i fod i archwilio a chraffu’n fanwl ar is-ddeddfwriaeth?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
It depends on the nature of the subordinate legislation. The Presiding Officer and I have to sign the vast majority of these instruments. As a result, we read the title and quickly read the instrument itself. The vast majority of them are to do with food hygiene and raise few policy implications. They are standard issues that are required to be read, but I do not believe that anybody in this Chamber would want to clog up the workings of the Assembly with the vast majority of the statutory instruments that are passed in relation to food hygiene and agriculture.
Mae’n dibynnu ar natur yr is-ddeddfwriaeth. Mae’n rhaid i’r Llywydd a mi lofnodi’r mwyafrif helaeth o’r offerynnau hyn. O ganlyniad, darllenwn y teitl ac wedyn darllen yr offeryn ei hun yn frysiog. Mae’r mwyafrif llethol ohonynt yn ymwneud â hylendid bwyd ac nid ydynt yn codi fawr o oblygiadau polisi. Materion safonol ydynt y mae angen eu darllen, ond ni chredaf y byddai neb yn y Siambr hon eisiau tagu gwaith y Cynulliad gyda’r mwyafrif llethol o’r offerynnau statudol a gaiff eu pasio mewn perthynas â hylendid bwyd ac amaethyddiaeth.
Answer the question.
Atebwch y cwestiwn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
David, do not lose your reputation for courtesy by making sedentary remarks. That is the answer to your question. I assure you that you would not want to consider these statutory instruments under the extended procedure. Read the list of instruments and you will realise that their nature does not require the use of the extended procedure. You should reconsider your attitude on this matter.
David, peidiwch â cholli’ch enw am gwrteisi drwy wneud sylwadau ar eich eistedd. Dyna’r ateb i’ch cwestiwn. Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau na fyddech eisiau ystyried yr offerynnau statudol hyn dan y weithdrefn estynedig. Darllenwch y rhestr o offerynnau ac fe sylweddolwch nad yw eu natur yn gofyn am ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn estynedig. Dylech ailystyried eich agwedd ar y mater hwn.
Do you agree that establishing the National Assembly has meant subordinate legislation is dealt with in a more open and accountable way, but, given that confusion still exists on this issue—including among Assembly Members—the Assembly needs to be granted full primary law-making powers as soon as possible?
A ydych yn cytuno fod sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi golygu yr ymdrinnir ag is-ddeddfwriaeth mewn ffordd fwy agored ac atebol, ond, gan fod dryswch yn parhau ar y mater hwn—a hynny ymhlith Aelodau’r Cynulliad hefyd—fod angen rhoi pwerau deddfu llawn i’r Cynulliad cyn gynted ag y bo modd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
You are right in the sense that the issue is about understanding what democratic scrutiny means. Members have been given the right to challenge legislation within 40 days if they feel it has not been adequately scrutinised. Some 245 of the 426 Orders were democratically scrutinised by the Business Committee, the Legislation Committee or Plenary, including 10 instruments that were considered under the extended procedure. In addition, many of these instruments, or at least the policy issues underpinning them, were also considered by a Subject Committee prior to or during the consultation stages.
Yr ydych yn iawn yn yr ystyr mai mater ydyw o ddeall beth a olygir wrth archwilio manwl democrataidd. Mae Aelodau wedi cael yr hawl i herio deddfwriaeth o fewn 40 diwrnod os teimlant na chafodd ei harchwilio’n ddigonol. Cafodd rhyw 245 o’r 426 Gorchymyn eu harchwilio’n ddemocrataidd gan y Pwyllgor Busnes, y Pwyllgor Deddfau neu’r Cyfarfod Llawn, gan gynnwys 10 offeryn a ystyriwyd dan y weithdrefn estynedig. Ar ben hynny, cafodd llawer o’r offerynnau hyn, neu o leiaf y materion polisi a oedd yn sylfaen iddynt, eu hystyried hefyd gan Bwyllgor Pwnc cyn neu yn ystod y cyfnodau ymgynghori.
Cwestiwn Brys
Urgent Question
Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru
The Wales European Centre
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 24
Yr wyf wedi caniatáu cwestiwn brys o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.31.
I have allowed an urgent question under Standing Order No. 6.31.
Will the First Minister make a statement following his announcement that the agreement between the National Assembly and the Wales European Centre is to come to an end in 12 months’ time? (EAQ17066)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad yn dilyn ei gyhoeddiad fod cytundeb y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gyda Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn dod i ben ymhen blwyddyn? (EAQ17066)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24
I welcome the opportunity to make a statement about my decision to enhance the Assembly Government’s presence in Brussels, which was announced last week, and the consequential announcement that we had given 12 months’ notice that we are relinquishing our membership of the Wales European Centre. That will be around the end of this Assembly’s term of office. We need to establish a stronger presence and a clearer profile in European institutions in Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and elsewhere. The Assembly Government presence in Brussels has now matured past the initial settling-in phase, which we achieved by co-locating the Welsh Assembly Government presence on the top floor of the house that Neil Kinnock and I opened around 18 months ago. We must now look forward with a view to what will happen after the next Assembly elections. We have considered the nature of our representation in Brussels and the need to establish a clear identity to answer the question about who speaks for Wales in Brussels more clearly than in the past. We concluded that strengthening our office must be a priority if we are to face up to the challenges and opportunities presented by a demanding European agenda and the increasing significance of that agenda for Wales, namely in the fields of governance, the White Paper on governance, the future of Europe, structural funds, common agriculture policy reform, enlargement, regional policy, the European networks, the Committee of the Regions and attendance at Council of Ministers meetings. The message from the Assembly and its Government must be clear and direct.
Croesawaf y cyfle i wneud datganiad am fy mhenderfyniad i gynyddu presenoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel, a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf, a’r cyhoeddiad dilynol ein bod wedi rhoi 12 mis o rybudd ein bod yn rhoi’r gorau i’n haelodaeth o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Bydd hynny tua diwedd tymor y Cynulliad hwn. Mae angen inni sefydlu presenoldeb cryfach a phroffil cliriach mewn sefydliadau Ewropeaidd ym Mrwsel, Strasbwrg, Lwcsembwrg a mannau eraill. Mae presenoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel bellach wedi aeddfedu y tu hwnt i’r cyfnod ymgartrefu cyntaf, rhywbeth y llwyddasom i’w wneud drwy gyd-leoli presenoldeb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar lawr uchaf y tŷ a agorwyd gan Neil Kinnock a mi tua 18 mis yn ôl. Rhaid inni edrych ymlaen yn awr gyda golwg ar beth fydd yn digwydd ar ôl etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad. Yr ydym wedi ystyried natur ein cynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel a’r angen i sefydlu hunaniaeth glir er mwyn rhoi ateb eglurach nag yn y gorffennol i’r cwestiwn ‘pwy sy’n siarad dros Gymru ym Mrwsel?’. Yr ydym wedi dod i’r casgliad fod yn rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i gryfhau’n swyddfa os am wynebu’r her a’r cyfle a roddir inni gan agenda Ewropeaidd galed ac arwyddocâd cynyddol yr agenda honno i Gymru, hynny yw ym meysydd llywodraethu, y Papur Gwyn ar lywodraethu, dyfodol Ewrop, arian strwythurol, diwygio’r polisi amaethyddiaeth cyffredin, ehangu, polisi rhanbarthol, y rhwydweithiau Ewropeaidd, Pwyllgor y Rhanbarthau a mynychu cyfarfodydd Cyngor y Gweinidogion. Rhaid i’r neges gan y Cynulliad a’i Lywodraeth fod yn eglur ac uniongyrchol.
Assembly membership of the Wales European Centre has produced many benefits in the first few years of the Assembly’s existence. However, it is likely to become increasingly more inappropriate in future and to confuse the role that the Assembly Government wishes to develop. That is why we have given the required 12 months’ notice to relinquish Assembly membership of the Wales European Centre. It was announced around a month following a similar, but not identical, letter by the Welsh Local Government Association also giving 12 months’ notice that it was relinquishing its membership of the centre, although it is also conducting a consultation exercise because some within the WLGA want to maintain membership of the Wales European Centre.
Mae aelodaeth y Cynulliad o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru wedi rhoi llawer o fanteision ym mlynyddoedd cyntaf bodolaeth y Cynulliad. Serch hynny, mae’n debygol o fynd yn fwyfwy amhriodol yn y dyfodol, a drysu’r rôl y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn dymuno’i datblygu. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi rhoi’r 12 mis gofynnol o rybudd ein bod am roi’r gorau i aelodaeth y Cynulliad o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Cyhoeddwyd hyn ryw fis wedi i lythyr tebyg, ond nid union yr un fath, gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru roi rhybudd 12 mis hefyd ei bod hithau’n rhoi’r gorau i’w haelodaeth o’r ganolfan, er ei bod hefyd yn cynnal ymarfer ymgynghori gan fod rhai o fewn y gymdeithas honno eisiau parhau’n aelodau o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
We will work with stakeholders, such as the WLGA, over the 12 months to strengthen the Assembly Government office and to decide what best suits the needs of the other stakeholders. A substantial proportion of the funding going into WEC comes from the Welsh Assembly Government, through the direct sum of £189,000, which we pay annually as our subscription, and the £246,000 given through the Welsh Development Agency. The WDA has told us that whatever arrangements we make, it would prefer to come in under the Welsh Assembly Government’s umbrella. It is difficult to say at the moment whether that will leave a viable Wales European Centre in 12 months’ time. However, we will do all that we can to facilitate a presence for the other stakeholders in Brussels, if that is what they want. It is a matter for the WLGA to complete its consultations over the next month or two. It will come forward to say whether it wants to retain WEC or be part of a post-WEC stakeholder body with other stakeholders in Wales. That is a matter for discussion between our officials and its officials, because we have 12 months to play with.
Byddwn yn gweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid, fel Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, dros y 12 mis i gryfhau swyddfa Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac i benderfynu beth sy’n gweddu orau i anghenion y rhanddeiliaid eraill. Daw cyfran sylweddol o’r arian a aiff i mewn i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru oddi wrth Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, drwy’r swm uniongyrchol o £189,000 a dalwn yn flynyddol fel ein tanysgrifiad, a’r £246,000 a roddir drwy Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Mae’r awdurdod datblygu wedi dweud wrthym pa drefniadau bynnag a wnawn, y byddai’n well ganddo ddod i mewn o dan ymbarél Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Mae’n anodd dweud ar hyn o bryd a fydd hynny’n gadael Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru hyfyw ymhen 12 mis. Fodd bynnag, gwnawn bopeth a allwn i hwyluso presenoldeb i’r rhanddeiliaid eraill ym Mrwsel, os dyna a ddymunant. Mater i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yw cwblhau ei hymgynghori dros y mis neu ddau nesaf. Daw ymlaen wedyn i ddweud a ydyw am gadw’r ganolfan Ewropeaidd ynteu am fod yn rhan o gorff rhanddeiliaid ôl-ganolfan gyda rhanddeiliaid eraill yng Nghymru. Mater i’w drafod yw hynny rhwng ein swyddogion a swyddogion y gymdeithas, oherwydd mae gennym 12 mis i chwarae â hwy.
We became members of WEC at the same time that we established our own office. We used roughly the same method as the Scots were using with Scotland Europa, sharing premises—though they had a different door, which we do not have—with the Scottish Executive office in Rond-Point Schuman in Brussels. Their long standing presence and experience in Brussels has helped us a lot; there is no question about that. However, in many ways we have now outgrown that initial transitional relationship and we should stand more on our own two feet. There are areas where it is no longer appropriate to expect the Assembly Government or its sponsored bodies to be represented by a third party. We should maximise our resource in Brussels and work with other interests to agree and establish an effective working arrangement. Much work and discussion will take place to establish the final shape of the Assembly Government’s presence and relationship with others over the next 12 months. The notice period, which is obligatory to any member of WEC as a stakeholder body, will allow that to happen in a measured way. It is important to maintain services in the meantime, which was one of the primary reasons for doing it the way that we did two years ago when we established the Welsh Assembly Government office and when we went in with WEC to the new premises.
Daethom yn aelodau o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar yr un pryd ag y bu inni sefydlu ein swyddfa ein hun, gan ddefnyddio’r un dull yn fras ag a ddefnyddiai’r Albanwyr gyda Scotland Europa, sef rhannu adeilad—er bod ganddynt hwy ddrws gwahanol, rhywbeth nad oes gennym ni—gyda swyddfa Gweithrediaeth yr Alban yn Rond-Point Schuman ym Mrwsel. Mae eu presenoldeb hir a’u profiad hwy ym Mrwsel wedi bod o gymorth mawr inni; nid oes dwywaith am hynny. Er hynny, mewn llawer ffordd yr ydym wedi tyfu’n fwy na’r berthynas dros-dro gychwynnol honno a dylem sefyll mwy ar ein traed ein hunain. Mae mannau lle nad yw’n briodol mwyach disgwyl i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad neu’r cyrff a noddir ganddi gael eu cynrychioli gan drydydd parti. Dylem wneud y defnydd mwyaf o’n hadnodd ym Mrwsel a gweithio gyda chyrff eraill i gytuno ar drefn weithio effeithiol a’i sefydlu. Bydd llawer o waith a thrafod er mwyn sefydlu ffurf derfynol presenoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’i pherthynas ag eraill dros y 12 mis nesaf. Bydd y cyfnod rhybudd, sy’n ofynnol i unrhyw aelod o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru fel corff rhanddaliadol, yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd mewn modd cytbwys. Mae’n bwysig cynnal gwasanaethau yn y cyfamser, a dyna un o’r rhesymau dros wneud fel y gwnaethom ddwy flynedd yn ôl pan sefydlwyd swyddfa Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a phan aethom i mewn gyda’r ganolfan Ewropeaidd i’r adeilad newydd.
Our position will help to focus consideration by others of what they want in Brussels, even though the WLGA could be said to have gone first. We will be discussing it with the WLGA and our sponsored bodies and the small number of bodies that are not Assembly sponsored public bodies, which are subscribers to WEC. It is also helpful in this context that Sir John Gray has been asked by WEC to carry out a review. He knows what our relationship will be with WEC at the end of the day. However, when I meet Sir John shortly we can discuss the best way to smooth the path, and to ensure that there is continuity as far as possible in the provision of services to ourselves, to our sponsored bodies, and to the WLGA and the other stakeholders who have an interest in better information and lobbying in Europe.
Bydd ein sefyllfa’n helpu eraill i hoelio’u sylw ar yr hyn sydd arnynt ei eisiau ym Mrwsel, hyd yn oed er y gellid dweud bod y Gymdeithas Lywodraeth Leol wedi mynd yn gyntaf. Byddwn yn trafod hyn gyda’r gymdeithas a’n cyrff noddedig a’r nifer fach o gyrff nad ydynt yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, sydd yn danysgrifwyr i’r ganolfan. Yn y cyd-destun hwn mae’n ddefnyddiol hefyd fod y ganolfan wedi gofyn i Syr John Gray wneud adolygiad. Gŵyr ef beth fydd ein perthynas gyda’r ganolfan Ewropeaidd ar ddiwedd y dydd. Er hynny, pan gyfarfyddaf â Syr John yn fuan gallwn drafod y ffordd orau o esmwytho’r ffordd, ac i sicrhau dilyniant hyd y gellir yn narpariaeth gwasanaethau i ni, i’n cyrff noddedig, ac i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r rhanddeiliaid eraill sydd â buddiant mewn gwell gwybodaeth a lobïo yn Ewrop.
There is considerable common ground between us in the Assembly about the need for Wales to have a strong presence in Brussels. Following the establishment of the National Assembly, that has become even more important. The Assembly needs to be strongly represented in Brussels.
Mae llawer o dir cyffredin rhyngom yn y Cynulliad ynghylch yr angen i Gymru gael presenoldeb cryf ym Mrwsel. Ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, daeth hynny’n bwysicach fyth. Mae angen i’r Cynulliad gael cynrychiolaeth gref ym Mrwsel.
My questions are about process, and about how the announcement that you made on Friday was made, without, it seems to me, any consultation. As an Assembly Member and an appointed director of WEC, your decision on Friday took me completely by surprise. When I was initially approached by the press in Wales to give my reaction, my immediate reaction was to say that no decision had been made, that I understood that discussions were ongoing about the future of WEC, but that no decision had been made about the Assembly’s relationship to WEC. I was then told by the press that you had issued a press release unilaterally deciding that that relationship should be terminated. As a director of WEC I found it deeply embarrassing to be told by the press that the relationship between WEC and the National Assembly was being terminated. It is deeply unsatisfactory for the Assembly to be told by the press that these important decisions were being made.
Mae a wnelo fy nghwestiynau i â phroses, a’r modd y gwnaethpwyd eich cyhoeddiad ddydd Gwener, heb, hyd y gwelaf, unrhyw ymgynghori. Fel Aelod Cynulliad a chyfarwyddwr penodedig ar Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, daeth eich penderfyniad ddydd Gwener yn gwbl annisgwyl imi. Pan ddaeth y wasg yng Nghymru ataf gyntaf i ofyn am fy ymateb, fy adwaith cyntaf oedd dweud nad oedd penderfyniad wedi’i wneud, fy mod yn deall fod trafodaethau ar waith ynghylch dyfodol y ganolfan, ond nad oedd penderfyniad wedi’i wneud ynglŷn â pherthynas y Cynulliad â’r ganolfan. Dywedwyd wrthyf wedyn gan y wasg eich bod wedi cyhoeddi datganiad i’r wasg gyda’r penderfyniad unochrol y dylid dod â’r berthynas honno i ben. Fel un o gyfarwyddwyr y ganolfan yr oedd yn embaras mawr i mi gael clywed gan y wasg fod y berthynas rhwng y ganolfan a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael ei therfynu. Mae’n anfoddhaol tu hwnt i’r Cynulliad gael gwybod gan y wasg fod y penderfyniadau hyn yn cael eu gwneud.
I have two questions about process. When the National Assembly decided to become a member of WEC, it was not the decision of any First Minister or Government—it was the decision of this Assembly. It was decided here in Plenary. All Assembly Members voted in favour of that relationship. When Assembly-nominated directors of WEC were selected, that again was a decision made in Plenary, not by you or by any member of the Government. Why then did you find it necessary to end that relationship yourself? Why did you do it on a Friday, three days before the Assembly was to meet? Why could you not have announced it today? Why could we not have had a debate in Plenary, when we could all have contributed? Under those circumstances, did you consult anyone on this decision before your announcement on Friday? Did you ask your stakeholders, the other members of WEC, about the impact of this decision? Is it not true that WEC was halfway through staff appointment interviews when your letter arrived? How embarrassing was it for those conducting those interviews to stop halfway through because the First Minister had made a decision that WEC could no longer operate without the Assembly’s membership? That is the situation, First Minister, as we understand it. Under those circumstances, do you not accept that the way that this matter appeared in the public domain was deeply unsatisfactory?
Mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn am y broses. Pan benderfynodd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fynd yn aelod o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, nid penderfyniad unrhyw Brif Weinidog na Llywodraeth ydoedd—ond penderfyniad y Cynulliad hwn. Penderfynwyd ar hynny yma yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Pleidleisiodd holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad o blaid y berthynas honno. Pan ddewiswyd cyfarwyddwyr enwebedig gan y Cynulliad ar y ganolfan, penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd mewn Cyfarfod Llawn oedd hwnnw eto, nid penderfyniad gennych chi na chan unrhyw aelod o’r Llywodraeth. Pam felly y gwelsoch angen i roi terfyn ar y berthynas honno eich hun? Pam y gwnaethoch hynny ar ddydd Gwener, dridiau cyn cyfarfod y Cynulliad? Pam na allasech fod wedi cyhoeddi hynny heddiw? Pam na allasem gael dadl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, pryd y gallasem i gyd fod wedi cyfrannu? Dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, a wnaethoch ymgynghori ag unrhyw un ar y penderfyniad hwn cyn eich cyhoeddiad ddydd Gwener? A wnaethoch holi’ch rhanddeiliaid, aelodau eraill y ganolfan, ynghylch effaith y penderfyniad hwn? Onid yw’n wir fod y ganolfan Ewropeaidd ar ganol cynnal cyfweliadau penodi staff pan gyrhaeddodd eich llythyr? Faint o embaras ydoedd i’r rhai a oedd yn cynnal y cyfweliadau hynny roi’r gorau iddi ar hanner y gwaith am fod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi penderfynu na allai’r ganolfan weithredu mwyach heb aelodaeth y Cynulliad? Dyna’r sefyllfa, Brif Weinidog, fel y deallwn ni hi. Dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, oni dderbyniwch fod y ffordd yr ymddangosodd y mater hwn yn gyhoeddus yn hynod anfoddhaol?
The relationship between the Assembly and Brussels needs clarification. Despite your long statement at the beginning of this urgent question, will you consult all partners, all Assembly Members, and the Committee on European and External Affairs—which had no inkling that this decision was about to be made—before any final decision is made about the way that the Assembly operates in Brussels?
Mae angen egluro’r berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad a Brwsel. Er gwaethaf eich datganiad hirfaith ar ddechrau’r cwestiwn brys hwn, a wnewch chi ymgynghori â’r holl bartneriaid, holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad, a’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol—nad oedd ganddo unrhyw syniad fod y penderfyniad hwn ar fin cael ei wneud—cyn y gwneir unrhyw benderfyniad terfynol ynghylch y ffordd y gweithreda’r Cynulliad ym Mrwsel?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 28
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I am staggered by your language, Ieuan. I cannot understand how you can say that this was done without consultation when you, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst and the Welsh Development Agency were consulted. We had a consultation meeting at which we asked you how the Assembly should seek to increase its representation in Brussels, and the implication of the Welsh Local Government Association’s decision that it would issue a notice of consultation. I am not saying that I offered the people with whom I consulted a veto on my action, but I outlined the factors facing us following the WLGA’s decision, and asked how we intended to operate at the end of the twelve month period in light of the WLGA’s decision—it might change that decision following consultation; the chances must be at least 2:1 that it will not. We were faced with the possible collapse of WEC. If the WLGA pulled out, 99 per cent of the remaining money in WEC would come from the Assembly and its sponsored public bodies.
Mae’ch iaith yn fy syfrdanu, Ieuan. Ni allaf ddeall sut y gallwch ddweud y gwnaethpwyd hyn heb ymgynghori pan ymgynghorwyd â chi, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Cawsom gyfarfod ymgynghori lle gofynasom ichi sut y dylai’r Cynulliad geisio cynyddu ei gynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel, a goblygiadau penderfyniad Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru y byddai’n cyhoeddi rhybudd ymgynghori. Nid wyf yn dweud fy mod wedi cynnig cyfle i’r bobl yr ymgynghorais â hwy atal yr hyn y penderfynais ei wneud, ond amlinellais y ffactorau a’n hwynebai yn dilyn penderfyniad CLlLC, a gofynnais sut y bwriadem weithredu ar ddiwedd y cyfnod deuddeg mis yng ngoleuni penderfyniad CLlLC—fe allai newid y penderfyniad hwnnw ar ôl ymgynghori; mae’n rhaid fod y siawns o leiaf yn 2:1 na wnaiff. Yr oeddem yn wynebu cwymp bosibl y ganolfan Ewropeaidd. Pe tynnai’r Gymdeithas allan, byddai 99 y cant o’r arian a fyddai’n weddill yn y ganolfan yn dod oddi wrth y Cynulliad a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo.
It is ridiculous to have WEC without the WLGA’s support. That increased our consideration of how we would strengthen our presence—as you said, Ieuan, that is something on which we all agree. I consulted to see what other people thought, but in the end the decision had to be made. You ask why it could not have been left until today. I know that the Assembly meets here for 33 weeks of the year, but the work of government goes on for many more weeks—with the exception of bank holidays and other short periods. It has never been implied that we must not make decisions during recess periods; this is the first time that I have heard of such a proposal. You refer to a ‘unilateral decision’: that is not true. It is not the case that this was done unilaterally, without consultation. I was careful to ensure that the directors were aware of what we were going to do. That is why I had a meeting with you and Mike, and a separate meeting with Nick, who could not be present when I met you and Mike. It would have been good for the four of us to talk it through together, but that was not possible, so we had two separate meetings.
Hurt fyddai cael Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru heb gefnogaeth CLlLC. Gwnaeth hynny inni ystyried yn fwy sut y byddem yn cryfhau’n presenoldeb—fel y dywedasoch, Ieuan, mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno arno. Ymgynghorais i weld beth oedd barn pobl eraill, ond yn y diwedd yr oedd yn rhaid gwneud y penderfyniad. Gofynnwch pam na fyddai modd ei adael tan heddiw. Gwn fod y Cynulliad yn cyfarfod yma am 33 wythnos yn y flwyddyn, ond aiff y gwaith llywodraethu ymlaen am wythnosau lawer yn fwy—ac eithrio gwyliau banc a chyfnodau byr eraill. Nid awgrymwyd erioed na ddylem wneud penderfyniadau yn ystod cyfnodau gwyliau; dyma’r tro cyntaf imi glywed am gynnig o’r fath. Cyfeiriwch at ‘benderfyniad unochrol’: nid yw hynny’n wir. Ni wnaethpwyd hyn yn unochrol, heb ymgynghori. Bûm yn ofalus i sicrhau bod y cyfarwyddwyr yn ymwybodol o’r hyn yr oeddem yn mynd i’w wneud. Dyna pam y cefais gyfarfod gyda chi a Mike, a chyfarfod ar wahân gyda Nick, nad oedd yn gallu bod yn bresennol pan gwrddais â chi a Mike. Byddai wedi bod yn dda inni’n pedwar siarad drwy’r peth gyda’n gilydd, ond nid oedd hynny’n bosibl, felly cawsom ddau gyfarfod ar wahân.
I am appalled by what I heard about the interviews, and I will investigate the matter appropriately. However, in no way could anybody possibly imagine that interviews were suspended halfway through on the instructions of the Assembly Government, as you imply. I must ask you to withdraw that absurd implication. It is complete nonsense. The Wales European Centre was aware of the fact that the WLGA had given twelve months’ notice a month before, and provision for hiring additional staff was a matter for WEC. To say that the arrival of a letter from me meant that it was suddenly appropriate for it to suspend interviews halfway through is complete nonsense.
Mae’r hyn a glywais am y cyfweliadau yn codi arswyd arnaf, ac fe ymchwiliaf i’r mater yn briodol. Fodd bynnag, ni allai neb ddychmygu o gwbl fod cyfweliadau wedi’u hatal ar eu hanner ar gyfarwyddyd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, fel yr awgrymwch chi. Rhaid imi ofyn ichi dynnu’r awgrym hurt hwnnw’n ôl. Dwli pur ydyw. Yr oedd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru’n ymwybodol o’r ffaith fod Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi rhoi deuddeg mis o rybudd fis ynghynt, a mater i’r ganolfan oedd darparu ar gyfer cyflogi staff ychwanegol. Dwli pur yw dweud bod llythyr yn cyrraedd oddi wrthyf fi wedi golygu ei bod yn sydyn yn briodol iddi atal cyfweliadau ar eu hanner.
This is an important issue; you may have inadvertently misled the National Assembly. I was not—and I ask you to consider this carefully—made aware that you intended to release a letter on Friday terminating the Assembly’s contract with WEC. I want you to understand that that is the position. I was not made aware of it.
Mae hwn yn fater pwysig; efallai eich bod drwy amryfusedd wedi camarwain y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Ni chefais wybod—a gofynnaf ichi ystyried hyn yn ofalus—eich bod yn bwriadu rhyddhau llythyr ddydd Gwener yn terfynu contract y Cynulliad gyda’r ganolfan. Mae arnaf eisiau ichi ddeall mai dyna’r sefyllfa. Ni chefais wybod amdano.
My second point is that I did not suggest that interviews were terminated on your instruction. They were terminated because, halfway through, those conducting the interviews became aware that you had written that letter. As a result of the letter, the interviews were terminated and those being interviewed were told why that had happened. Under those circumstances, First Minister, will you respond carefully to both those issues, because this will now become a matter of record?
Fy ail bwynt yw nad awgrymais i’r cyfweliadau gael eu terfynu ar eich cyfarwyddyd chi. Cawsant eu terfynu oherwydd, a hwythau ar eu hanner, cafodd y rhai a oedd yn cynnal y cyfweliadau wybod eich bod chi wedi ysgrifennu’r llythyr hwnnw. O ganlyniad i’r llythyr, daethpwyd â’r cyfweliadau i ben a dywedwyd wrth y rhai a oedd yn cael eu cyfweld pam yr oedd hynny wedi digwydd. Dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, Brif Weinidog, a wnewch chi ymateb yn ofalus i’r ddau fater hyn, oherwydd bydd hyn yn awr yn mynd yn fater o gofnod?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 30
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30
Everything we do is a matter of record, Ieuan, not merely when you insist that it is a matter of record. You should not stand on your own dignity like that, if you do not mind. You are getting very close to nit-picking on this issue. You are forgetting that the interviews were arranged a month after the Welsh Local Government Association had given the 12-month notice of withdrawal. To imply that it is because the second letter giving the 12-month notice of withdrawal came from the Welsh Assembly Government and that, therefore, we are somehow to blame for the interviews being organised and stopped halfway through, is absurd. It had already had a month to consider the implications of the withdrawal of the WLGA’s membership and the possible loss of a substantial chunk—possibly 25 per cent—of its income at the end of 12 months. I cannot determine how WEC conducts its business and whether or not it should have been interviewing for staff on Friday afternoon. There is no way that we would have known that. However, it is a matter that it must consider, given that it had received a month’s notice of the 12-month notice—
Mae popeth a wnawn yn fater o gofnod, Ieuan, nid dim ond pan fynnwch chi ei fod yn fater o gofnod. Ni ddylech sefyll ar eich urddas fel yna, os nad oes ots gennych. Yr ydych yn mynd yn agos iawn at hollti blew ar y mater hwn. Yr ydych yn anghofio y trefnwyd y cyfweliadau fis wedi i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru roi’r rhybudd 12 mis eu bod yn tynnu allan. Mae awgrymu mai oherwydd y daeth yr ail lythyr yn rhoi’r rhybudd tynnu-allan 12 mis oddi wrth Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’n bod ni, felly, ar fai rywsut am fod y cyfweliadau wedi’u trefnu ac wedi’u hatal ar eu hanner, yn hurt. Yr oedd eisoes wedi cael mis i ystyried goblygiadau colli aelodaeth Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r posibilrwydd o golli talp sylweddol—efallai 25 y cant—o’i hincwm ymhen 12 mis. Ni allaf fi benderfynu sut y cynhalia’r ganolfan ei busnes ac a ddylai fod wedi bod yn cyfweld darpar staff brynhawn dydd Gwener ai peidio. Nid oes unrhyw ffordd y byddem wedi gwybod hynny. Serch hynny, y mae’n fater y dylai’r ganolfan ei ystyried, o gofio ei bod wedi cael mis o rybudd am y rhybudd 12 mis—
What about the first question?
Beth am y cwestiwn cyntaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 31
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
Will you remind me what the first question was?
A wnewch chi fy atgoffa beth oedd y cwestiwn cyntaf?
The first question was do you now accept that I was not aware that you intended to make a statement on Friday terminating the Assembly’s relationship with WEC.
Y cwestiwn cyntaf oedd a ydych yn awr yn derbyn nad oeddwn yn ymwybodol eich bod yn bwriadu gwneud datganiad ddydd Gwener yn terfynu perthynas y Cynulliad â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 31
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
That is a nit-pick, Ieuan. I discussed with you the consequences for the Assembly Government of the WLGA withdrawal, and our desire to have a stronger presence in Brussels. I will not go into the details, as I think that a note exists that indicates your response to the suggestion that we cease to be members of WEC.
Hollti blew yw hynny, Ieuan. Trafodais gyda chi y canlyniadau o safbwynt Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi i CLlLC dynnu allan, a’n hawydd ni i gael presenoldeb cryfach ym Mrwsel. Nid af i mewn i’r manylion, gan fy mod yn meddwl bod nodyn yn bodoli sy’n nodi’ch ymateb i’r awgrym y dylem beidio â bod yn aelodau o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
It is accepted that we need strong representation in Brussels. That is not what is at issue. Our interests in agriculture, the environment and a multitude of issues that are decided over there, need to be represented. What is at issue is the way in which you have handled this matter. I was going to say that you have behaved like a secretary of state for Wales, but I am sure that a secretary of state for Wales would have consulted more widely and held more discussion than you have done. To try to pretend that this is an urgent issue when we have given 12 months’ notice is insane. The Assembly made the decision to join WEC; any decision to withdraw from WEC should also be made by the Assembly. The Assembly appointed three of WEC’s directors. You have unilaterally terminated those appointments. To try to pretend that it was not a unilateral decision is wrong.
Derbynnir fod arnom angen cynrychiolaeth gref ym Mrwsel. Nid dyna sydd dan sylw. Mae angen cynrychioli’n buddiannau mewn amaethyddiaeth, yr amgylchedd a llu o faterion a benderfynir draw yn y fan honno. Yr hyn sydd dan sylw yw’r modd yr ydych chi wedi delio â’r mater hwn. Yr oeddwn yn mynd i ddweud eich bod wedi ymddwyn fel ysgrifennydd gwladol dros Gymru, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y buasai ysgrifennydd gwladol wedi ymgynghori’n ehangach ac wedi cynnal mwy o drafodaeth nag a wnaethoch chi. Mae ceisio cymryd arnoch fod hyn yn fater brys a ninnau wedi rhoi 12 mis o rybudd yn orffwyll. Y Cynulliad a wnaeth y penderfyniad i ymuno â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru; dylai unrhyw benderfyniad i dynnu allan o’r ganolfan gael ei wneud gan y Cynulliad hefyd. Penododd y Cynulliad dri o gyfarwyddwyr y ganolfan Ewropeaidd. Yr ydych wedi terfynu’r penodiadau hynny’n unochrol. Nid yw’n iawn ceisio cymryd arnoch nad penderfyniad unochrol ydoedd.
You may have held consultation, and we will come on to that, but it does not alter the nature of the decision. You consulted me on whether it would be a good idea to beef up our representation in Brussels, to which I replied that it would. When you mentioned our future role in WEC, I said—and I think that you were unaware of it at the time—that a review on a short timescale, which will be concluded next month, was being undertaken by Sir John Gray, and that it would therefore be wise to wait for the end of that review before doing anything. What you seem to be saying today is that you were bounced into this decision by the WLGA. It seems extraordinary to me that the WLGA is making decisions on your behalf. It is totally wrong to pretend that you consulted widely and took notice of that consultation. Your letter to me says that I supported a proposal to relinquish membership of WEC. I hope that you will withdraw that part of the letter because I did no such thing, but rather quite the contrary; I said that we should wait for the conclusion of Sir John Gray’s review.
Efallai eich bod wedi ymgynghori, ac fe ddeuwn at hynny, ond nid yw’n newid natur y penderfyniad. Gwnaethoch ymgynghori â mi ynghylch a fyddai’n syniad da cryfhau’n cynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel, ac atebais i y byddai. Pan sonioch am ein rôl yn y ganolfan Ewropeaidd i’r dyfodol, dywedais i—ac yr wyf yn meddwl nad oeddech yn gwybod hyn ar y pryd—fod adolygiad ar raddfa amser fer, a ddaw i ben y mis nesaf, yn cael ei gynnal gan Syr John Gray, ac mai doeth felly fyddai aros tan ddiwedd yr adolygiad hwnnw cyn gwneud dim. Mae’n ymddangos heddiw eich bod yn dweud ichi gael eich gwthio i wneud y penderfyniad hwn gan CLlLC. Mae’n ymddangos yn od i mi fod CLlLC yn gwneud penderfyniadau ar eich rhan. Mae’n gwbl gyfeiliornus cymryd arnoch eich bod wedi ymgynghori’n eang ac wedi cymryd sylw o’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw. Dywed eich llythyr ataf fy mod wedi cefnogi cynnig i ildio aelodaeth o’r ganolfan. Gobeithio y gwnewch chi dynnu’r rhan honno o’r llythyr yn ôl oherwydd ni wneuthum ddim byd o’r fath, ond yn hytrach yn gyfan gwbl i’r gwrthwyneb; dywedais y dylem aros nes byddai adolygiad Syr John Gray wedi’i gwblhau.
On Friday morning, when this decision was made, I was discussing the future of WEC with Sir Brian Smith and Jonathan Morgan, who were not aware of the decision. The directors and members of WEC were not aware of it either. You knew, as did the press. That is wrong. It should have been decided here; you are acting like a tin-pot dictator and it is time for the Assembly to discuss such decisions rather than you making them on your own.
Fore dydd Gwener, pan wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwn, yr oeddwn yn trafod dyfodol y ganolfan Ewropeaidd gyda Syr Brian Smith a Jonathan Morgan, y ddau’n gwybod dim am y penderfyniad. Ni wyddai cyfarwyddwyr ac aelodau’r ganolfan amdano ychwaith. Gwyddech chi, a gwyddai’r wasg. Nid yw hynny’n iawn. Dylid bod wedi ei benderfynu yma; yr ydych yn ymddwyn fel unben pot jam ac mae’n bryd i’r Cynulliad drafod penderfyniadau o’r fath yn hytrach na’ch bod chi’n eu gwneud ar eich pen eich hun.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 32
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
That is completely over the top, and a disproportionate reaction to a decision that we made after appropriate consultation with you, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Mike German and Tom Middlehurst. I sent a letter to Sir Brian Smith. I understand that there was a problem because Sir Brian Smith was moving house and he therefore did not get the information as quickly as would have been desirable. We did not know that he was moving house on that day and that he did not receive the letter in time. I apologise to Sir Brian about that. It is just one of those things that happens from time to time.
Mae hynny’n gwbl dros ben llestri, ac yn adwaith anghymesur i benderfyniad a wnaethom ar ôl ymgynghori’n briodol â chi, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Mike German a Tom Middlehurst. Anfonais lythyr at Syr Brian Smith. Deallaf fod problem am fod Syr Brian Smith yn symud tŷ ac felly na chafodd y wybodaeth mor gyflym ag a ddymunid. Nid oeddem yn gwybod ei fod yn symud tŷ y diwrnod hwnnw ac na chafodd y llythyr mewn pryd. Ymddiheuraf i Syr Brian am hynny. Mae’n un o’r pethau hynny sy’n digwydd o dro i dro.
Unlike the meeting with Ieuan and Mike, I do not have minutes of the meeting with you because we were the only ones present. However, my memory of that meeting is completely different from yours—it is just one person’s word against another because no-one else was present. I am sorry about that. My description of your response in the meeting is exactly as I put it in the letter. I cannot do anything about the fact that you do not agree with that because there was no-one there to take minutes unlike at the other meeting. I ask you to cool down and not get so agitated about this decision.
Yn wahanol i’r cyfarfod gyda Ieuan a Mike, nid oes gennyf gofnodion o’r cyfarfod gyda chi am mai dim ond ni oedd yn bresennol. Fodd bynnag, mae fy nghof i o’r cyfarfod hwnnw’n gwbl wahanol i’ch cof chi—gair un person yn erbyn y llall ydyw oherwydd nid oedd neb arall yn bresennol. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf am hynny. Mae fy nisgrifiad i o’ch ymateb yn y cyfarfod yn union fel yr wyf wedi’i nodi yn y llythyr. Ni allaf wneud dim am y ffaith nad ydych yn cytuno â hynny oherwydd nid oedd neb yno’n cymryd cofnodion, yn wahanol i’r cyfarfod arall. Gofynnaf ichi ymdawelu a pheidio â chynhyrfu cymaint am y penderfyniad hwn.
The decision that we were considering was not bounced by the WLGA. We were considering this issue with medium urgency before the WLGA reached its decision. It became more urgent when the WLGA made its decision because we had to consider what would happen if it proceeded to pull out of WEC when it had finished its consultation. I do not know when the decision was made to appoint Sir John Gray to carry out his review. However, I consider WEC’s decision to be wise and I believe that we can reach a happy conclusion in consultation with Sir John Gray’s review. If the WLGA, as the main non-governmental stakeholder, finally decides that it wants a continued presence in WEC, we will do all that we can to facilitate a continued smaller-scale presence by the WLGA in a successor to WEC. It could be assisted in terms of reducing its overheads by co-location with our office, whatever it requires. We have 12 months to sort this out, which as you say, benefits us enormously to ensure that there is a smooth transition to a new form of organisation in Brussels.
Ni chafodd y penderfyniad yr oeddem yn ei ystyried ei wthio arnom gan CLlLC. Yr oeddem yn ystyried y mater hwn gyda brys canolig cyn i CLlLC wneud ei phenderfyniad. Daeth yn fater o frys mwy pan wnaeth CLlLC ei phenderfyniad oherwydd yr oedd yn rhaid inni ystyried beth fyddai’n digwydd pe bai’n mynd rhagddi i dynnu allan o’r ganolfan wedi iddi orffen ei hymgynghoriad. Ni wn pa bryd y gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad i benodi Syr John Gray i gynnal ei adolygiad. Serch hynny, ystyriaf fod penderfyniad y ganolfan yn ddoeth a chredaf y gallwn gyrraedd diweddglo hapus mewn ymgynghoriad ag adolygiad Syr John Gray. Os penderfyna CLlLC yn y diwedd, fel y prif randdeiliad o’r tu allan i’r llywodraeth, ei bod am gadw presenoldeb yn y ganolfan Ewropeaidd, fe wnawn bopeth a allwn i hwyluso parhad presenoldeb ar raddfa lai gan CLlLC mewn corff a ddaw fel olynydd i’r ganolfan. Gellid ei chynorthwyo o ran lleihau ei gorbenion drwy gydleoli gyda’n swyddfa ni, beth bynnag a gymer. Mae gennym 12 mis i roi trefn ar hyn, sydd, fel y dywedwch, yn fanteisiol iawn i ni er mwyn sicrhau y ceir trosglwyddiad esmwyth i ffurf newydd o sefydliad ym Mrwsel.
Given, as you say, that there are 12 months to consider this, why did you feel it appropriate to make this decision on your own without bringing it before the Committee on European and External Affairs or Plenary for the chance to have a thoroughgoing debate on something that is crucial? I am not getting hot under the collar about it unnecessarily. Our membership of WEC and our representation in Brussels is important. Is it not more appropriate, given that we are the National Assembly for Wales, for this to be debated here rather than for you to make a decision without consultation with any stakeholders, directors or Assembly Members?
A derbyn, fel y dywedwch, fod gennym 12 mis i ystyried hyn, pam y teimlasoch ei bod yn briodol gwneud y penderfyniad hwn ar eich pen eich hun heb ddod ag ef gerbron y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol na’r Cyfarfod Llawn er mwyn cael cyfle i gael dadl drwyadl ar rywbeth sy’n allweddol? Nid wyf yn gwylltio am hyn yn ddiangen. Mae’n haelodaeth o’r ganolfan a’n cynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel yn bwysig. Onid yw’n fwy priodol, gan mai ni yw Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, trafod hyn yn y fan hon yn hytrach na’ch bod chi’n gwneud penderfyniad heb ymgynghori â’r rhanddeiliaid, y cyfarwyddwyr nac Aelodau’r Cynulliad?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 34
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
This is the difference between consultation and vetoing people. Consultation should be about telling the key people involved that this is the problem that we are facing, this is our ambition, so what do you think? Then we absorb what they think, make a decision and inform people of that decision. We cannot always wait until the end of recess before doing so. We have consulted on this; we have not given you a veto over a decision. It is clear that you do not like the decision that was made, but neither you nor Ieuan gave me that impression when I met with you. It is up to you to decide what you remember of our meeting. Consultation is not necessarily the same as having a veto over a decision. You may want a debate on this, but a decision has now been made and it is a matter of working out the best way forward 12 months hence when the Assembly term and the present 12 months’ notice ends; it is a convenient period. As soon as the elections are over, we can proceed with the new arrangements.
Dyma’r gwahaniaeth rhwng ymgynghori a nacáu pobl. Dylai ymgynghori olygu dweud wrth y bobl allweddol berthnasol mai dyma’r broblem yr ydym yn ei hwynebu, dyma’n huchelgais, felly beth yw’ch barn chi? Wedyn cymerwn eu barn hwy, gwnawn benderfyniad a hysbyswn bobl am y penderfyniad hwnnw. Ni allwn bob amser aros tan ddiwedd y gwyliau cyn gwneud hynny. Yr ydym wedi ymgynghori ar hyn; nid ydym wedi rhoi hawl i chi nacáu penderfyniad. Mae’n amlwg nad ydych yn hoffi’r penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd, ond ni roesoch chi na Ieuan yr argraff honno imi pan gwrddais â chi. Mater i chi yw penderfynu beth a gofiwch o’n cyfarfod. Nid yw ymgynghori o reidrwydd yr un fath â chael hawl nacáu penderfyniad. Efallai fod arnoch eisiau dadl ar hyn, ond mae penderfyniad wedi’i wneud yn awr ac mae’n fater o ystyried beth yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen ymhen 12 mis pan ddaw tymor y Cynulliad a’r cyfnod rhybudd 12 mis presennol i ben; mae’n gyfnod cyfleus. Cyn gynted ag y bydd yr etholiadau drosodd, gallwn symud ymlaen â’r trefniadau newydd.
Given that you mentioned me in your statement, I must respond. You and I had a discussion about WEC’s role, its actions on behalf of the Assembly and whether there should be another form of representation in Europe that would strengthen the Assembly’s position. I do not recall, in those discussions, any proposals to withdraw from the Wales European Centre—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] I tell the truth.
Gan ichi fy nghrybwyll i yn eich datganiad, rhaid imi ymateb. Cawsoch chi a mi drafodaeth am rôl y ganolfan Ewropeaidd, am yr hyn a wnâi ar ran y Cynulliad ac ynghylch a ddylid cael ffurf arall ar gynrychiolaeth yn Ewrop a fyddai’n cryfhau sefyllfa’r Cynulliad. Nid wyf yn cofio, yn y trafodaethau hynny, unrhyw gynigion i dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Dywedaf y gwir.
The future of WEC will be severely undermined if this decision is not reversed. I ask you at this stage to assure me that this decision is not irreversible—that is a double negative—given that Sir John Gray is conducting a full review, on behalf of WEC’s board, of its future role in Europe and how it might best represent the broad range of interests represented on WEC’s board. It is worth acknowledging that diversity is WEC’s strength. It represents a wide range of public sector and quasi-public sector organisations. In that sense, it is unique. Our decision, and any consequent decisions of other partners, would severely damage its ability to function effectively on behalf of those partners, some of whom are relatively small and make relatively small contributions, but nonetheless value their presence on WEC’s board.
Caiff dyfodol y ganolfan Ewropeaidd ei danseilio’n ddifrifol os na wrthdroir y penderfyniad hwn. Gofynnaf ichi yn awr roi sicrwydd imi nad yw’r penderfyniad hwn yn ddi-droi’n-ôl—dyna negydd dwbl—gan fod Syr John Gray yn cynnal adolygiad llawn, ar ran bwrdd y ganolfan, o’i rôl yn Ewrop i’r dyfodol a sut y gallai gynrychioli orau yr amrediad eang o fuddiannau a gynrychiolir ar fwrdd y ganolfan. Mae’n werth cydnabod mai amrywiaeth yw cryfder y ganolfan Ewropeaidd. Mae’n cynrychioli amrediad eang o gyrff y sector cyhoeddus a’r sector lled-gyhoeddus. Yn yr ystyr hwnnw, mae’n unigryw. Byddai’n penderfyniad ni, ac unrhyw benderfyniadau wedyn gan bartneriaid eraill, yn peri niwed difrifol i’w gallu i weithredu’n effeithiol ar ran y partneriaid hynny, rhai ohonynt yn gymharol fach ac yn gwneud cyfraniadau cymharol fach, ond sydd serch hynny’n gwerthfawrogi eu presenoldeb ar fwrdd y ganolfan.
The WLGA’s decision should not drive ours. It is not certain that its decision and the notice that it has issued will be confirmed by the 22 local authorities. Many local authorities are seriously concerned about the actions that have been taken, which you have noted. However, they have been told and assured that those actions are merely a facility to enable that decision to be made if, during the next 12 months, the WLGA is unable to confirm that WEC will properly represent the interests of local government in future. You might also be prepared to consider that position, namely that we use your decision as an opportunity to look at how we might strengthen our position within WEC and whether our representation in WEC is appropriate. Do you agree that we need to strengthen the Welsh Government’s position, but that that does not conflict with the Assembly’s continuing membership of WEC’s board? In the light of these developments, Sir John Gray’s review and the lightning response from several local authorities, I ask you to reconsider your decision.
Ni ddylai penderfyniad CLlLC ddylanwadu ar ein penderfyniad ni. Nid oes sicrwydd y caiff ei phenderfyniad a’r rhybudd a gyhoeddodd eu cadarnhau gan y 22 awdurdod lleol. Mae llawer o awdurdodau lleol yn pryderu’n ddifrifol am y modd y gweithredwyd, fel y dywedasoch chi. Fodd bynnag, dywedwyd wrthynt, a rhoddwyd sicrwydd iddynt, mai dim ond cyfleuster yw’r gweithredu hwnnw i alluogi gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw os, yn ystod y 12 mis nesaf, y bydd CLlLC yn methu â chadarnhau y bydd y ganolfan Ewropeaidd yn cynrychioli buddiannau llywodraeth leol yn iawn yn y dyfodol. Efallai y byddech yn barod i ystyried y safiad hwnnw, sef ein bod yn defnyddio’ch penderfyniad fel cyfle i edrych ar sut y gallem gryfhau’n sefyllfa o fewn y ganolfan ac a yw ein cynrychiolaeth yn y ganolfan yn briodol. A ydych yn cytuno bod angen inni gryfhau sefyllfa Llywodraeth Cymru, ond nad yw hynny’n gwrthdaro â pharhad aelodaeth y Cynulliad ar fwrdd y ganolfan? Yng ngolau’r datblygiadau hyn, adolygiad Syr John Gray a’r ymateb sydyn gan nifer o awdurdodau lleol, gofynnaf ichi ailystyried eich penderfyniad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 35
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
I agree with what you said with one or two exceptions, which will be obvious to everyone. I do not agree that we did not discuss a decision on pulling out of WEC, but it is a matter of looking at the minutes of that meeting. Neither do I agree on the significance of the stakeholder element of WEC. It is an interesting and unique body in that it has so many different subscribers, but at the end of the day, around 75 per cent of the money—if not more—comes from the Assembly, either directly or through Assembly sponsored public bodies. Therefore, when you take out the WLGA, you are talking about at least 95 or 99 per cent of the money coming from Welsh local government or us.
Cytunaf â’r hyn a ddywedasoch gydag un neu ddau eithriad, a fydd yn amlwg i bawb. Nid wyf yn cytuno na wnaethom drafod penderfyniad ar dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ond mater yw hynny o edrych ar gofnodion y cyfarfod hwnnw. Nid wyf yn cytuno ychwaith ynglŷn ag arwyddocâd elfen rhanddeiliaid y ganolfan. Mae’n gorff diddorol ac unigryw a chanddo gymaint o wahanol danysgrifwyr, ond ar ddiwedd y dydd, daw oddeutu 75 y cant o’r arian—os nad mwy—o’r Cynulliad, un ai’n uniongyrchol neu drwy gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Felly, o dynnu CLlLC allan, yr ydych yn sôn am o leiaf 95 neu 99 y cant o’r arian yn dod oddi wrth lywodraeth leol Cymru neu oddi wrthym ni.
You are right about the WLGA. As I said, at the end of the consultation it may decide not to proceed with its decision, although presumably, the chances are that it will. The odds that it will proceed with the decision to terminate its membership are probably 2:1. However, there must be a chance that it will go the other way. If it does, and if it wants to remain in WEC, we will try to facilitate a post-WEC body to continue providing services for the non-governmental stakeholders as cheaply and effectively as possible. If it does not want to do that, and if it wants to use our offices or make different arrangements altogether, we will consider those options. That is the best way to look at Sir John Gray’s review. I will meet him shortly and discuss with him the best way forward and how all parties will play their cards over the next 12 months.
Yr ydych yn gywir am CLlLC. Fel y dywedais, ar ddiwedd yr ymgynghoriad efallai y penderfyna beidio â mynd ymlaen â’i phenderfyniad, er mai’r tebygolrwydd, gellir tybio, ydyw y gwna. Mae’n debyg mai 2:1 yw’r siawns y gwnaiff fwrw ymlaen â’r penderfyniad i derfynu’i haelodaeth. Er hynny, mae’n rhaid fod siawns yr aiff y ffordd arall. Os gwna, ac os bydd arni eisiau aros yn y ganolfan, fe geisiwn hwyluso corff ôl-ganolfan Ewropeaidd i barhau i ddarparu gwasanaethau i’r rhanddeiliaid nad ydynt yn rhan o’r llywodraeth, a hynny mor rhad ac effeithiol ag y bo modd. Os na fydd arni eisiau gwneud hynny, ac os bydd arni eisiau defnyddio’n swyddfeydd ni neu wneud trefniadau hollol wahanol, fe ystyriwn yr opsiynau hynny. Dyna’r ffordd orau i edrych ar adolygiad Syr John Gray. Byddaf yn cyfarfod ag ef cyn bo hir i drafod y ffordd orau ymlaen a sut y bydd pob corff yn chwarae ei gardiau dros y 12 mis nesaf.
You asked if I would reconsider the decision; in a way the Assembly elections are an opportunity for reconsideration because if the incoming Government in 2003, whichever party that is, takes a different view, it will have the opportunity to put that view into effect as soon as the elections are over. Those 12 months are convenient in terms of coming to the end of the Assembly’s first term and the membership requirements of the Wales European Centre.
Gofynasoch a fyddwn yn ailystyried y penderfyniad; mewn ffordd mae etholiadau’r Cynulliad yn gyfle i ailystyried oherwydd os bydd y Llywodraeth a ddaw i mewn yn 2003, pa bynnag blaid y bo, o farn wahanol, caiff y cyfle i weithredu ar y farn honno cyn gynted ag y bydd yr etholiadau ar ben. Mae’r 12 mis hynny’n gyfleus o ran dod at ddiwedd tymor cyntaf y Cynulliad a gofynion aelodaeth Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. Serious questions arise from the First Minister’s response to the urgent question. It is now on record that the recollections of three of WEC’s directors nominated by the National Assembly are at variance with what the First Minister said. There are also serious concerns about the relationship between the National Assembly and WEC for the remaining 12 months of membership and about the proposition that the National Assembly should consider carefully its new relationship with Brussels. Given that these serious questions have arisen and have not been answered adequately, under Standing Order No. 6.9 I ask that there should be an urgent debate on this matter. In view of my comments and those made by others, I ask the Presiding Officer to rule that this is now an appropriate matter to be put to the National Assembly for a vote. If the National Assembly feels that a debate on this matter is appropriate, I suggest that a debate is held on Thursday.
Pwynt o drefn. Cyfyd cwestiynau difrifol o ymateb Prif Weinidog Cymru i’r cwestiwn brys. Mae wedi’i gofnodi bellach fod yr hyn a gofia tri o gyfarwyddwyr y ganolfan Ewropeaidd a enwebwyd gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn wahanol i’r hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog. Mae pryderon difrifol hefyd ynghylch y berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru am y 12 mis sy’n weddill o’i aelodaeth ac ynghylch y cynnig y dylai’r Cynulliad ystyried yn ofalus ei berthynas newydd â Brwsel. Gan fod y cwestiynau difrifol hyn wedi codi ac nad ydynt wedi’u hateb yn ddigonol, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9 gofynnaf am ddadl frys ar y mater hwn. Yng ngoleuni fy sylwadau i ac eraill, gofynnaf i’r Llywydd ddyfarnu fod hyn yn awr yn fater priodol i’w roi gerbron y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar gyfer pleidlais. Os teimla’r Cynulliad ei bod yn briodol cael dadl ar y mater hwn, awgrymaf y gellid cynnal dadl ddydd Iau.
Further to that point of order, it is appropriate that we consider this matter urgently under Standing Order No. 6.9. The First Minister has spoken about a consultation with Tom Middlehurst, Ieuan Wyn Jones and myself, which we do not recollect. Irrespective of that, this is an Assembly issue and all Members should have a right to participate in such matters. Party groups have not discussed it. Stakeholders are involved, and the First Minister has acted inappropriately. We need an urgent debate on this issue.
Yn dilyn y pwynt o drefn hwnnw, mae’n briodol inni roi ystyriaeth frys i’r mater hwn dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9. Siaradodd Prif Weinidog Cymru am ymgynghoriad â Tom Middlehurst, Ieuan Wyn Jones a mi, nad ydym yn ei gofio. Beth bynnag am hynny, mae hwn yn fater i’r Cynulliad a dylai pob Aelod gael hawl i gyfranogi mewn materion o’r fath. Nid yw’r grwpiau plaid wedi ei drafod. Mae a wnelo hyn â rhanddeiliaid, ac mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi gweithredu’n amhriodol. Mae angen dadl frys ar y mater hwn.
Further to that, this is not precisely on this point of order, but I have listened carefully to the other points that have been raised and I look forward to your ruling on them. It seems to me that there is a potential conflict in terms of the Assembly’s decision as a corporate body, which took a decision not only to appoint three directors to WEC, but to subscribe to the body itself. Presumably, if that decision is still extant, the resolution is binding on the Executive, the Permanent Secretary and his staff. The Welsh Assembly Government’s decision is to withdraw the Welsh Assembly Government, not the National Assembly, from membership. The Welsh Assembly Government does not have the power to reverse the decision that the National Assembly itself has taken, except by resolution of the National Assembly. Will you reflect on that matter and give us some guidance, Presiding Officer? This is fundamental. I voted for this National Assembly to subscribe to the Wales European Centre. I have not had the opportunity of having any say on the decision to reverse that. As an Assembly Member, I have the right to be consulted and to make my views known. Your response to this would guide me in the way that I vote on any motion that you might care to accept as to whether we should have a debate on this on Thursday or next week.
Yn sgîl hynny, nid yw hyn yn fanwl ar y pwynt hwn o drefn, ond yr wyf wedi gwrando’n astud ar y pwyntiau eraill a godwyd ac edrychaf ymlaen at eich dyfarniad arnynt. Mae’n ymddangos i mi fod gwrthdaro posibl o ran penderfyniad y Cynulliad fel corff corfforaethol, a wnaeth benderfyniad nid yn unig i benodi tri chyfarwyddwr i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ond i danysgrifio i’r corff ei hun. Gellir tybio, os yw’r penderfyniad hwnnw’n bodoli o hyd, fod y penderfyniad yn rhwymo’r Weithrediaeth, yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol a’i staff. Yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i benderfynu yw ei bod am derfynu aelodaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, nid y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Nid oes gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru y grym i wrthdroi’r penderfyniad a wnaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei hun, ac eithrio trwy benderfyniad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. A wnewch chi ystyried y mater hwnnw a rhoi arweiniad inni, Lywydd? Mae hyn yn sylfaenol. Pleidleisiais i dros i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn danysgrifio i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Nid wyf wedi cael y cyfle i gael unrhyw lais yn y penderfyniad i wrthdroi hynny. Fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, mae gennyf yr hawl i gael ymgynghori â mi ac i leisio fy marn. Byddai’ch ymateb chi i hyn yn fy arwain yn y ffordd y pleidleisiaf ar unrhyw gynnig y dymunech ei dderbyn ynghylch a ddylem gael dadl ar hyn ddydd Iau neu’r wythnos nesaf.
Further to that point of order, this is an important matter because the First Minister said earlier that the Assembly should not be clogged up with the consideration of subordinate legislation under the extended procedure. We did not delegate the right to overturn the original resolution to the First Minister when we subscribed to the WEC and nominated the directors—we have heard a great deal about veto this afternoon, but it seems that only the First Minister has exercised one. If the First Minister has the right to veto decisions several months or years after a vote by this Assembly, does that not damage the authority of this Plenary and reduce to nothing people’s confidence in any resolution passed by this body?
Ar y pwynt o drefn hwnnw, mae hwn yn fater pwysig oherwydd dywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gynharach na ddylid tagu’r Cynulliad â’r baich o ystyried is-ddeddfwriaeth dan y weithdrefn estynedig. Ni wnaethom ddirprwyo’r hawl i wrthdroi’r penderfyniad gwreiddiol i’r Prif Weinidog pan danysgrifiasom i’r ganolfan ac enwebu’r cyfarwyddwyr—clywsom lawer am hawl nacáu y prynhawn yma, ond mae’n ymddangos i mi mai dim ond y Prif Weinidog sydd wedi ymarfer hawl o’r fath. Os oes gan y Prif Weinidog yr hawl i nacáu penderfyniadau fisoedd neu flynyddoedd ar ôl pleidlais gan y Cynulliad hwn, onid yw hynny’n niweidio awdurdod y Cyfarfod Llawn hwn ac yn lladd hyder pobl mewn unrhyw benderfyniad a gaiff ei basio gan y corff hwn?
Ar y pwynt o drefn hwnnw, wrth i chi ystyried pwyntiau Ron Davies a David Melding, mae pwynt sylfaenol ynghylch ein cynrychiolaeth yn Ewrop—ai cynrychioli’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ynteu Llywodraeth Cymru y mae Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn Ewrop? Beth fyddai’r gynrychiolaeth o dan yr amodau newydd y mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ceisio eu gosod? Yn y gorffennol, fel cadeirydd dau Bwyllgor, cefais gymorth gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ym Mrwsel i gyfarfod â chomisiynwyr a phobl mewn adrannau gwahanol, i drafod busnes yn ymwneud â Phwyllgorau.
On that point of order, in your consideration of Ron Davies’s and David Melding’s points, there is a fundamental point regarding our representation in Europe—does WEC represent the National Assembly or the Government of Wales in Europe? What representation would there be under the new conditions that the First Minister is trying to establish? In the past, as chair of two Committees, I have received assistance from the Wales European Centre in Brussels, in meeting commissioners and people in different departments in order to discuss business pertaining to Committees.
Pan gafodd Tom Middlehurst ei benodi yn gyfarwyddwr ar y bwrdd, cafodd ei benodi gan y Llywodraeth. Ai penodiad ar ran y Llywodraeth neu ar ran Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddylai hynny fod? Credaf i gwestiynau sylfaenol godi yma ynglŷn â chynrychiolaeth y corff hwn yn Ewrop.
When Tom Middlehurst was appointed a member of the board of directors, he was appointed by the Government. Should the appointment have been made on behalf of the Government or the National Assembly for Wales? I believe that fundamental questions arise here on the representation of this body in Europe.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 39
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
Further to that point of order, there is little point in an urgent debate if its sole purpose is to determine who said what and when; that can never be determined. Assembly Members have posed several questions, which I am sure that the Presiding Officer will require time to consider. If the purpose of the debate would be to determine the respective powers of the legislature and the Executive, it is not a matter for debate but a matter for him. That will inevitably take some time.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, nid oes fawr o bwynt mewn dadl frys os mai ei hunig bwrpas yw penderfynu pwy a ddywedodd beth ym mhle; ni ellir fyth benderfynu hynny. Mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi codi sawl cwestiwn, y bydd ar y Llywydd angen amser i’w hystyried, yr wyf yn siŵr. Os mai diben y ddadl fyddai penderfynu ar bwerau’r ddeddfwrfa a’r Weithrediaeth, nid mater dadl ydyw ond mater iddo ef. Bydd hynny’n anorfod yn cymryd cryn amser.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
I am grateful for that advice. I will deal with two separate issues. The first is regarding the request that has, unusually, been made in the Chamber today, under Standing Order No. 6.9. As you know, such requests are normally made to me in my private office or by e-mail, so that I am notified under the Standing Order. I am then able to give my permission for a matter to be raised as one of urgent public importance. I was unable to give my permission in advance of today’s session, but I accepted the urgent question. I will consider this request between now and Thursday.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyngor hwnnw. Deliaf â dau fater ar wahân. Mae a wnelo’r cyntaf â’r cais a wnaethpwyd, yn anarferol, yn y Siambr heddiw, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9. Fel y gwyddoch, gwneir ceisiadau o’r fath fel rheol i mi yn fy swyddfa breifat neu drwy e-bost, fel y caf fy hysbysu dan y Rheol Sefydlog. Wedyn gallaf roi fy nghaniatâd i fater gael ei godi fel mater o bwys cyhoeddus ar frys. Nid oeddwn yn gallu rhoi fy nghaniatâd cyn cyfarfod heddiw, ond derbyniais y cwestiwn brys. Ystyriaf y cais hwn rhwng yn awr a dydd Iau.
On the matters of legal import relating to the National Assembly, I regard myself—and any holder of my office—as the guardian of the Assembly’s views and the keeper of Assembly resolutions. If decisions are made during Assembly Plenary sessions, they bind us as Assembly Members until they are rescinded. That is my interim constitutional view, but I will not rule without taking further advice.
Ar y materion o bwys cyfreithiol ynglŷn â’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ystyriaf fy hun—ac unrhyw un a ddeil fy swydd—yn warcheidwad barn y Cynulliad ac yn geidwad penderfyniadau’r Cynulliad. Os gwneir penderfyniadau yn ystod Cyfarfodydd Llawn y Cynulliad, maent yn ein clymu fel Aelodau Cynulliad hyd nes cânt eu dad-wneud. Dyna fy marn gyfansoddiadol ar hyn o bryd, ond ni ddyfarnaf heb gymryd cyngor pellach.
Datganiad ar Gyfarwyddyd ar Ymestyn Categorïau Pobl Ddigartref
Statement on Guidance to Extend the Categories of Homeless People
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 39
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
Homelessness is a highly visible personal and social problem. Tackling homelessness is an important part of the Assembly’s national housing strategy. Already, we have increased the budget devoted to homelessness by some 800 per cent. That is how important it is to us; we see it as a problem.
Mae digartrefedd yn broblem bersonol a chymdeithasol weladwy iawn. Mae mynd i’r afael â digartrefedd yn rhan bwysig o strategaeth dai genedlaethol y Cynulliad. Eisoes, yr ydym wedi cynyddu’r gyllideb ar gyfer digartrefedd ryw 800 y cant. Dyna pa mor bwysig ydyw i ni; gwelwn ei fod yn broblem.
Local authorities have a duty to provide accommodation for people who are homeless, eligible for assistance and classified as in priority need. The extent of this duty depends on whether the persons in question are homeless through their own actions, or whether they are found to be what is termed ‘unintentionally homeless’.
Mae gan awdurdodau lleol ddyletswydd i ddarparu llety i bobl sy’n ddigartref, yn gymwys i dderbyn cymorth ac wedi’u dosbarthu fel blaenoriaeth angen. Mae hyd a lled y ddyletswydd hon yn dibynnu ar a ydyw’r personau dan sylw’n ddigartref drwy eu gweithredoedd eu hunain, ynteu a ganfyddir eu bod yr hyn a elwir yn ‘anfwriadol ddigartref’.
I am proud of the fact that we were the first administration in the UK to extend the duties of local authorities to other vulnerable groups. The Homeless Persons (Priority Need) (Wales) Order 2001 applies only to Wales. It now covers the following: a care leaver or person at particular risk of sexual or financial exploitation, 18 years of age or over but under 21 years; a 16 or 17-year-old; a person fleeing domestic violence or threatened domestic violence; a person homeless after leaving the armed forces; and former prisoners who have been homeless since leaving custody, and who have a local connection with the area of the local housing authority. Those groups are among the most vulnerable people in our society, and need our particular support. In Wales, local authorities will not have any discretion over accepting homeless people in these vulnerable circumstances. This is in contrast to homelessness legislation proposed in England.
Yr wyf yn falch o’r ffaith mai ni oedd y weinyddiaeth gyntaf yn y DU i ymestyn dyletswyddau awdurdodau lleol at grwpiau bregus eraill. Mae Gorchymyn Personau Digartref (Angen Blaenoriaethol) (Cymru) 2001 yn berthnasol i Gymru yn unig. Bellach mae’n cynnwys y canlynol: rhywun sy’n gadael gofal neu rhywun y mae risg arbennig y caiff ei ecsbloetio’n rhywiol neu’n ariannol, 18 oed neu fwy ond dan 21 oed; rhywun 16 neu 17 oed; rhywun sy’n ffoi oddi wrth drais yn y cartref neu fygythiad trais yn y cartref; rhywun sy’n ddigartref ar ôl gadael y lluoedd arfog; a chyn-garcharorion a fu’n ddigartref ers cael eu rhyddhau, a chanddynt gysylltiad lleol ag ardal yr awdurdod tai lleol. Mae’r grwpiau hynny ymhlith y bobl fwyaf bregus yn ein cymdeithas, ac mae arnynt angen ein cefnogaeth yn arbennig. Yng Nghymru, ni fydd gan awdurdodau lleol unrhyw ddisgresiwn dros dderbyn pobl ddigartref yn yr amgylchiadau bregus hyn. Mae hyn yn gwrthgyferbynnu â deddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd a gynigir yn Lloegr.
In July 2001, we issued provisional guidance to local authorities and other interested bodies, to assist in the implementation of the Order. The Homelessness Commission considered the provisional guidance and approved its contents. The consultation period for this guidance expired on 10 October 2001, and 16 responses were received. Many comments were received, but the main concerns expressed were, first, that some local authorities felt that they were unable to offer suitable accommodation to the vulnerable group of care leavers and 16 to 17-year-olds. We are advised that it is sometimes difficult for local authorities to obtain confirmation of a young person’s time in care. Secondly, local authorities are concerned about finding accommodation for people leaving prison, particularly where they may have been committed to prison following criminal damage to the authority’s property. Officials are considering the issues that were raised during the consultation exercise. A revised and updated guidance code for local authorities on allocating accommodation and homelessness will be issued for consultation this summer.
Yng Ngorffennaf 2001, rhoesom ganllawiau amodol i awdurdodau lleol a chyrff eraill sydd â diddordeb, i’w helpu i weithredu’r Gorchymyn. Ystyriodd Comisiwn y Digartref y canllawiau amodol a chymeradwyo eu cynnwys. Daeth y cyfnod ymgynghori ar y canllawiau hyn i ben ar 10 Hydref 2001, a chafwyd 16 ymateb. Derbyniwyd llawer o sylwadau, ond y prif bryderon a fynegwyd oedd, yn gyntaf, fod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn teimlo na allent gynnig llety addas i’r grŵp bregus o rai sy’n gadael gofal a rhai 16 i 17 oed. Dywedir wrthym ei bod weithiau’n anodd i’r awdurdodau lleol gael cadarnhad o gyfnod person ifanc mewn gofal. Yn ail, mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn bryderus ynghylch canfod llety i bobl sy’n dod allan o’r carchar, yn enwedig lle efallai y cawsant eu carcharu ar ôl gwneud difrod troseddol i eiddo’r awdurdod. Mae swyddogion yn ystyried y materion a godwyd yn ystod yr ymarfer ymgynghori. Caiff côd canllawiau diwygiedig a diweddaredig i awdurdodau lleol ar ddyrannu llety a digartrefedd ei gyhoeddi ar gyfer ymgynghoriad yr haf hwn.
The Homelessness Act 2002 received Royal Assent on 26 February. The Act imposes a new duty on local authorities to undertake a review of homelessness in their area and to formulate and publish a local homelessness strategy within 12 months of the Act coming into effect. It is anticipated that the Act will come into force in Wales before the summer recess.
Cafodd Deddf Digartrefedd 2002 y Cydsyniad Brenhinol ar 26 Chwefror. Mae’r Ddeddf yn gosod dyletswydd newydd ar yr awdurdodau lleol i wneud arolwg o ddigartrefedd ac i ffurfio a chyhoeddi strategaeth ar gyfer digartrefedd lleol o fewn 12 mis wedi i’r Ddeddf ddod i rym. Rhagwelir y daw’r Ddeddf i rym yng Nghymru cyn gwyliau’r haf.
There is some anecdotal evidence of significant variations in the way local authorities apply the homelessness legislation, including the new priority needs Order. That gives me some cause for concern.
Mae rhywfaint o dystiolaeth anecdotaidd o amrywiadau arwyddocaol yn y ffordd y bydd yr awdurdodau lleol yn cymhwyso’r ddeddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd, gan gynnwys y Gorchymyn newydd ar anghenion blaenoriaeth. Mae hynny’n destun peth pryder imi.
I am monitoring statistics and other relevant information related to homelessness. I will be reviewing the impact and implementation of the homeless persons’ Order and will take the findings into account in the final guidance. I will work with the Welsh Local Government Association, local authorities and other organisations, such as Shelter Cymru, to ensure that there is a full understanding of the responsibilities that flow from the Order and other homelessness legislation. I want to see consistent treatment for all vulnerable people in every part of Wales. If necessary, I will discuss any concerns with the Audit Commission, which is responsible for inspecting local authorities.
Yr wyf yn monitro ystadegau a gwybodaeth berthnasol arall ynglŷn â digartrefedd. Byddaf yn adolygu effaith a gweithrediad y Gorchymyn pobl ddigartref ac yn ystyried yr hyn a welaf yn y canllawiau terfynol. Byddaf yn gweithio gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, yr awdurdodau lleol a chyrff eraill, fel Shelter Cymru, er mwyn sicrhau bod dealltwriaeth lawn o’r cyfrifoldebau sy’n llifo o’r Gorchymyn a deddfwriaeth arall ar ddigartrefedd. Mae arnaf eisiau gweld triniaeth gyson i bobl fregus ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Os oes angen, fe drafodaf unrhyw bryderon gyda’r Comisiwn Archwilio, sy’n gyfrifol am arolygu’r awdurdodau lleol.
Local authorities have expressed concern that they do not have adequate resources to deal with the increased number of people who are now presenting themselves as homeless. Assembly Government funding for homelessness projects has increased from £650,000 in 1998-99 to £4.86 million in 2002-03. However, this is only the start. Funding for the supported housing revenue grant has also been increased to take account of the additional priority need categories. One hundred new bed spaces were funded in 2001-02 and a further 100 will be provided in 2002-03.
Mynegodd yr awdurdodau lleol bryder nad oes ganddynt adnoddau digonol i ddelio â’r nifer gynyddol o bobl sydd erbyn hyn yn cyflwyno’u hunain yn ddigartref. Mae cyllid gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad tuag at brosiectau digartrefedd wedi cynyddu o £650,000 yn 1998-99 i £4.86 miliwn yn 2002-03. Er hynny, dim ond dechrau yw hyn. Cynyddwyd cyllid ar gyfer y grant refeniw i dai a gefnogir, er mwyn ystyried y targedau anghenion blaenoriaeth ychwanegol. Talwyd am gant o lefydd gwelyau newydd yn 2001-02 a darperir 100 arall yn 2002-03.
I recognise that we have only scratched the surface of the homelessness problem. In the past, solutions have been fragmented and largely focused on housing. That is appropriate for some homeless people as the experience is short term and can be resolved simply by finding a suitable house. However, for many, being homeless is connected to problems in other aspects of their lives. In those circumstances, they will need support and advice before they can be resettled in secure accommodation.
Yr wyf yn cydnabod mai dim ond wedi crafu wyneb y broblem ddigartrefedd yr ydym. Yn y gorffennol, bu’r atebion yn ddarniog ac yn canolbwyntio’n helaeth ar dai. Mae hynny’n briodol i rai pobl ddigartref gan mai profiad tymor byr ydyw a gellir ei ddatrys yn syml drwy ganfod tŷ addas. Fodd bynnag, i lawer, mae bod yn ddigartref yn gysylltiedig â phroblemau mewn agweddau eraill ar eu bywydau. Yn yr amgylchiadau hynny, bydd arnynt angen cefnogaeth a chyngor cyn y gellir eu hailsefydlu mewn llety diogel.
On 24 April, the Local Government and Housing Committee will consider a report on the Assembly’s responses to the Homelessness Commission’s recommendations. It will also consider a framework for a national homelessness strategy.
Ar 24 Ebrill, bydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yn ystyried adroddiad ar ymatebion y Cynulliad i argymhellion y Comisiwn Digartrefedd. Bydd hefyd yn ystyried fframwaith ar gyfer strategaeth ddigartrefedd genedlaethol.
Introducing the new priority groups in Wales was a significant step forward in combating homelessness and social exclusion. There is still much to do, but I believe that Wales will remain ahead on this issue if all those involved in solutions share our objectives.
Yr oedd cyflwyno’r grwpiau blaenoriaeth newydd yng Nghymru yn gam arwyddocaol ymlaen yn y frwydr yn erbyn digartrefedd ac allgáu cymdeithasol. Mae llawer i’w wneud o hyd, ond credaf y bydd Cymru’n aros ar y blaen ar y mater hwn os bydd pawb sy’n ymwneud â’r atebion yn rhannu’n hamcanion.
I am pleased that these homeless groups are now priority cases within Wales because if they are classed as being a priority—and there is no leeway for local council discretion on this matter—these new categories should take precedence over local policies and local practices. As you said in your statement, there seems to be a difference emerging in how local authorities are implementing and applying these new categories. That is a cause of concern, particularly if it is happening anecdotally to 16 and 17-year-olds and ex-offenders leaving prison. I am pleased to hear you say that you are tracking the figures on this issue. We would all be interested to learn how effectively local authorities are implementing these new categories. Having changed the burden on local authorities by forcing them to conform by making these people a priority, are you satisfied that we are now giving them sufficient resources to meet those demands? As you said, 16 and 17-year-olds need a great deal of support, especially if they must learn to live independently. That support is often costly to provide. I hope that we will review this issue further when the commission reports back. At that point, I hope that you will consider establishing a permanent standing commission on homelessness. It will take a long time to get through, it is not being applied equitably throughout Wales, and it is being interpreted differently in different authorities but as you have now made it a priority, that discretion does not exist. We must ensure that this is delivered. I ask you to seriously consider establishing a standing commission for homelessness.
Yr wyf yn falch fod y grwpiau digartref hyn bellach yn achosion blaenoriaeth yng Nghymru oherwydd os cânt eu dosbarthu fel blaenoriaeth—ac nid oes unrhyw le i ddisgresiwn y cyngor lleol ar y mater hwn—dylai’r categorïau newydd hyn gael blaenoriaeth dros bolisïau lleol ac arferion lleol. Fel y dywedasoch yn eich datganiad, mae’n ymddangos bod gwahaniaeth yn dod i’r amlwg yn sut y bydd yr awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu ac yn cymhwyso’r categorïau newydd hyn. Mae hynny’n achos pryder, yn enwedig os yw’n digwydd yn ôl y sôn i bobl 16 ac 17 oed a chyn-droseddwyr yn gadael carchar. Mae’n dda gennyf eich clywed yn dweud eich bod yn cadw llygad ar y ffigurau ar y mater hwn. Byddai gan bob un ohonom ddiddordeb mewn dysgu pa mor effeithiol y mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu’r categorïau newydd hyn. Wedi ichi newid y baich ar yr awdurdodau lleol drwy eu gorfodi i gydymffurfio a rhoi blaenoriaeth i’r bobl hyn, a ydych yn fodlon ein bod yn rhoi adnoddau digonol iddynt yn awr i ateb y gofynion hynny? Fel y dywedasoch, mae angen llawer o gefnogaeth ar bobl 16 ac 17 oed, yn enwedig os oes raid iddynt ddysgu byw’n annibynnol. Mae’r gefnogaeth honno’n aml yn gostus i’w darparu. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn adolygu’r mater hwn ymhellach pan gawn adroddiad yn ôl gan y comisiwn. Bryd hynny, gobeithiaf yr ystyriwch sefydlu comisiwn sefydlog parhaol ar ddigartrefedd. Fe gymer amser maith i fynd drwodd, nid yw’n cael ei gymhwyso’n gyfartal drwy Gymru, a chaiff ei ddehongli’n wahanol mewn gwahanol awdurdodau, ond gan eich bod chi bellach wedi ei wneud yn flaenoriaeth, nid yw’r disgresiwn hwnnw’n bodoli. Rhaid inni sicrhau y cyflawnir hyn. Gofynnaf ichi ystyried o ddifrif sefydlu comisiwn sefydlog ar ddigartrefedd.
It is important that we do not only have anecdotal evidence, but that we have hard evidence. I encourage Assembly Members and others to make that information available to my officials so that we have a clear picture of what happens outside this building. It is also important that we keep a permanent track of its development. I will be happy to report regularly to Committee when the information is available so that we can plot the success of our policies.
Mae’n bwysig nad dim ond tystiolaeth anecdotaidd sydd gennym, ond bod gennym dystiolaeth galed. Anogaf Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac eraill i ddarparu’r wybodaeth honno i fy swyddogion fel y bydd gennym ddarlun clir o’r hyn sy’n digwydd y tu allan i’r adeilad hwn. Mae’n bwysig hefyd ein bod yn cadw llygad parhaus ar ei ddatblygiad. Byddaf yn hapus i adrodd yn rheolaidd i’r Pwyllgor pan fydd y wybodaeth ar gael fel y gallwn olrhain llwyddiant ein polisïau.
In terms of what local authorities are undertaking, I indicated that we are revising the code of conduct and guidance for local authorities. That will be put out for consultation this summer and the final guidance published by 2003. We can raise issues in our guidance that will help local authorities.
O ran yr hyn a wna’r awdurdodau lleol, nodais ein bod yn adolygu’r cod ymddygiad a’r canllawiau ar gyfer yr awdurdodau lleol. Ymgynghorir ar y rheini yr haf yma a chyhoeddir y canllawiau terfynol erbyn 2003. Gallwn godi materion yn ein canllawiau a fydd yn helpu’r awdurdodau lleol.
I also recognise that organisations have expressed concerns on the implementation of the Order. We want to work with local authorities to ensure that that guidance and the organisations involved are clear about what it means in terms of implementation so that we can achieve standard practice across Wales.
Cydnabyddaf hefyd fod sefydliadau wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch gweithredu’r Gorchymyn. Mae arnom eisiau gweithio gyda’r awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod y canllawiau hynny a’r cyrff dan sylw yn glir ynghylch yr hyn a olygir o ran gweithredu fel y gallwn sicrhau arferion safonol ledled Cymru.
I alluded to the additional resources in my statement. However, as findings emerge, we will want to consider resources in this important area. The Committee will want to discuss that in terms of its priorities in the budget planning round.
Yn fy natganiad cyfeiriais at yr adnoddau ychwanegol. Fodd bynnag, wrth i ganfyddiadau ddod i’r wyneb, bydd arnom eisiau ystyried adnoddau yn y maes pwysig hwn. Bydd ar y Pwyllgor eisiau trafod hynny o ran ei flaenoriaethau yng nghylch cynllunio’r gyllideb.
Finally, you made a point about a permanent commission. If it is not a quango, and if you are suggesting that a permanent group of experts should give us advice, I will be happy to consider it.
Yn olaf, gwnaethoch bwynt ynglŷn â chomisiwn parhaus. Os nad cwango ydyw, ac os ydych yn awgrymu y dylai grŵp parhaol o arbenigwyr roi cyngor inni, byddaf yn hapus i’w ystyried.
You will know from our discussions in Committee that the Welsh Conservatives welcome this report and are grateful to you for making this statement at this time. However, there are concerns, which you mentioned in your report, particularly about people leaving custody who were imprisoned for damaging local authority property. How will you solve that and what measures will you enforce? Also, how will the Audit Commission monitor local authorities? We do not want more inspection but we would be grateful if local authorities had the opportunity of more training for their staff, particularly as regards this vulnerable group, so that there is adequate identification. Will you make information available on the particular group in this larger sector that enjoys a transient life and only requires occasional support? The money being made available is a substantial increase and we trust that there will not be a shortfall in monies for other vulnerable groups. However, in general we welcome your statement and we look forward to seeing further information on these matters.
Byddwch yn gwybod o’n trafodaethau yn y Pwyllgor fod y Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn croesawu’r adroddiad hwn ac yn ddiolchgar i chi am wneud y datganiad hwn ar yr adeg hon. Serch hynny, y mae pryderon, a grybwyllwyd gennych yn eich adroddiad, yn enwedig ynghylch pobl a ryddheir o garchar ar ôl cael eu carcharu am ddifrodi eiddo’r awdurdod lleol. Sut y gwnewch chi ddatrys hynny a pha fesurau a weithredwch? Hefyd, sut y gwnaiff y Comisiwn Archwilio fonitro’r awdurdodau lleol? Nid oes arnom eisiau mwy o arolygu ond byddem yn ddiolchgar pe câi’r awdurdodau lleol y cyfle i gael mwy o hyfforddiant i’w staff, yn enwedig yng nghyswllt y grŵp bregus hwn, fel y ceir adnabyddiaeth ddigonol. A sicrhewch chi fod gwybodaeth ar gael ar y grŵp arbennig yn y sector mwy hwn sy’n mwynhau bywyd byrhoedlog ac sydd angen cefnogaeth ysbeidiol yn unig? Mae’r arian a ddarperir yn gynnydd sylweddol a hyderwn na fydd llai o arian ar gael i grwpiau bregus eraill. Serch hynny, yn gyffredinol croesawn eich datganiad ac edrychwn ymlaen at weld gwybodaeth bellach ar y materion hyn.
You made a useful point about the training that should be available to local authority staff in helping to identify homeless people and the services needed when vulnerable people come forward. You must be able to assess the needs correctly and promptly and see what accommodation they require. Therefore, I do not want further regulation for local Government, but if we agree on common standards and how we deal with these issues across Wales, and find that it is not happening, we might have to resort to consider indicators. However, I must consider your point about training and what further work we require in that area.
Gwnaethoch bwynt defnyddiol am yr hyfforddiant a ddylai fod ar gael i staff yr awdurdodau lleol i helpu i adnabod pobl ddigartref a’r gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen pan ddaw pobl fregus ger bron. Rhaid gallu asesu’r anghenion yn gywir ac yn brydlon a gweld pa lety sydd arnynt ei angen. Felly, nid oes arnaf eisiau mwy o reoleiddio ar Lywodraeth leol, ond os cytunwn ar safonau cyffredin a ffyrdd o ddelio â’r materion hyn ar draws Cymru, a gweld nad yw hynny’n digwydd, efallai y bydd yn rhaid inni droi i ystyried dangosyddion. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi ystyried eich pwynt am hyfforddi a pha waith pellach sydd ei angen yn y maes hwnnw.
The issue as regards former prisoners is about establishing a local connection. That is how it is described. Local authorities have raised the point with me that they would consider that people have made themselves intentionally homeless if they have incurred criminal damage on their council house and are jailed for it. They are concerned about what they need to do. That area must be considered in terms of the guidance and what advice we can give to local authorities. However, I will have to give further consideration to the issue of intentional homelessness. The issue of prisoners and the local connection is included in legislation and I know there are concerns in certain areas about how this is operated. However, it is clear that former prisoners must have resided in the area previously, had employment there, or had an association or some other special circumstances.
Mae’r mater ynghylch cyn-garcharorion yn fater o sefydlu cyswllt lleol. Dyna sut y’i disgrifir. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol wedi codi’r pwynt gyda mi y byddent hwy’n ystyried bod pobl wedi gwneud eu hunain yn fwriadol ddigartref os ydynt wedi gwneud difrod troseddol i’w tŷ cyngor a chael carchar am hynny. Maent yn bryderus ynghylch beth sydd angen iddynt ei wneud. Rhaid ystyried y maes hwnnw o ran y canllawiau a pha gyngor y gallwn ei roi i’r awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid imi ystyried cwestiwn digartrefedd bwriadol ymhellach. Mae mater carcharorion a’r cyswllt lleol wedi’i gynnwys mewn deddfwriaeth a gwn fod pryderon mewn rhai ardaloedd ynglŷn â’r modd y gweithredir hyn. Serch hynny, mae’n glir bod yn rhaid i gyn-garcharorion fod wedi byw yn yr ardal o’r blaen, fod wedi gweithio yno, neu fod ganddynt gysylltiad neu ryw amgylchiadau arbennig eraill.
I welcome the statement. It is important that we have reached this situation by working closely with the independent sector. We are working in partnership and we are taking people with us. The issue of resources, which has been raised by local authorities and Members, must be addressed in the local homelessness strategies. Those authorities that are well ahead in preparing local homelessness strategies or have one in place already will be best placed to find specialist accommodation for care leavers and 16 to 17-year-olds, for example. They will be better equipped to cope with that aspect of the Order. We must encourage local authorities to develop local homelessness strategies as quickly as possible. Money is available to do that under section 126. Once we have received the strategies, we must start to evaluate them, work out the funding needs and arrange our budget accordingly.
Croesawaf y datganiad. Mae’n bwysig ein bod wedi cyrraedd y sefyllfa hon drwy weithio’n agos gyda’r sector annibynnol. Gweithiwn mewn partneriaeth ac awn â phobl gyda ni. Rhaid rhoi sylw i adnoddau, sydd yn fater a godwyd gan yr awdurdodau lleol ac Aelodau, yn y strategaethau digartrefedd lleol. Yr awdurdodau hynny sydd ymhell ar y blaen o ran paratoi strategaethau digartrefedd lleol, neu sydd wedi sefydlu un yn barod, fydd yn y sefyllfa orau i ganfod llety arbenigol i rai sy’n gadael gofal a rhai 16 i 17 oed, er enghraifft. Byddant yn barotach i ymdopi â’r agwedd honno i’r Gorchymyn. Rhaid inni annog yr awdurdodau lleol i ddatblygu strategaethau digartrefedd lleol cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Mae arian ar gael i wneud hynny dan adran 126. Unwaith y byddwn wedi derbyn y strategaethau, rhaid inni ddechrau eu gwerthuso, cyfrifo’r anghenion ariannu a threfnu’n cyllideb yn unol â hynny.
I echo your concern, and that of other Members, about how the Order is being applied. There is anecdotal evidence that it is not applied consistently across Wales. As we are dealing with individual cases, there will always be an element of discretion. However, it is important that we ask the Audit Commission and the district auditor to examine how this is being implemented and to ensure that people in all parts of Wales are treated fairly and in accordance with the intentions of the Order.
Yr wyf yn ategu’ch pryder, a phryder Aelodau eraill, ynglŷn â’r modd y cymhwysir y Gorchymyn. Ceir tystiolaeth anecdotaidd nad yw’n cael ei chymhwyso’n gyson ar draws Cymru. Gan mai gydag achosion unigol yr ydym yn delio, bydd elfen o ddisgresiwn bob amser. Serch hynny, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gofyn i’r Comisiwn Archwilio a’r archwilydd dosbarth edrych ar y modd y gweithredir hyn a sicrhau bod pobl ym mhob rhan o Gymru’n cael eu trin yn deg ac yn unol â bwriadau’r Gorchymyn.
In light of the point raised by Peter and others about how the Order is implemented across local government in Wales, it might be useful for Members if we were to put it on the agenda for discussion with the Partnership Council. We could discuss how to use the district audit service and the Audit Commission, and also William’s earlier point about training staff and how we must deal with these issues.
Yng ngolau’r pwynt a godwyd gan Peter ac eraill ynghylch y modd y gweithredir y Gorchymyn ar draws llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, efallai y byddai’n fuddiol i’r Aelodau pe baem yn ei osod ar yr agenda ar gyfer trafodaeth gyda’r Cyngor Partneriaeth. Gallem drafod sut i ddefnyddio’r gwasanaeth archwilio dosbarth a’r Comisiwn Archwilio, a hefyd bwynt cynharach William ynglŷn â hyfforddi staff a sut mae’n rhaid inni ddelio â’r materion hyn.
We must show that we are all on board in ensuring that local authorities deliver on their local homelessness strategies. That is definitely the way forward in dealing with some of the accommodation problems. Peter returned to the question of funding. There are ways and means, and funding will be available for local authorities to deal with these issues. Once reforms are implemented we may find more problems lurking, which might require a financial response from the Assembly.
Rhaid inni ddangos ein bod i gyd yn gytûn ac am sicrhau bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu ar eu strategaethau digartrefedd lleol. Dyna’r ffordd ymlaen yn bendant i ddelio â rhai o’r problemau llety. Dychwelodd Peter at gwestiwn y cyllid. Y mae dulliau ar gael, a bydd cyllid ar gael i’r awdurdodau lleol i ddelio â’r materion hyn. Unwaith y bydd diwygiadau wedi’u gweithredu efallai y gwelwn fwy o broblemau’n llechu, a all alw am ymateb ariannol gan y Cynulliad.
Can you clarify the position of one of my constituents who has contacted me during the last few days? He has recently been released from prison, so he falls into one of the categories in the Order. He contacted his local authority 10 days after being released, when he discovered that he would not be able to live in the home that he previously shared with his partner. He has always lived in that local authority area. The local authority claimed that it only had a duty to him for seven days after his release. Did that local authority act within the spirit of your guidance?
A allwch fwrw goleuni ar sefyllfa un o f’etholwyr a gysylltodd â mi yn yr ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf? Cafodd ei ryddhau o’r carchar yn ddiweddar, felly daw o dan un o gategorïau’r Gorchymyn. Cysylltodd â’i awdurdod lleol 10 diwrnod ar ôl cael ei ryddhau, pan ddarganfu na fyddai’n gallu byw yn y cartref yr oedd yn ei rannu gynt gyda’i gymar. Mae wedi byw yn ardal yr awdurdod lleol hwnnw erioed. Honnodd yr awdurdod lleol mai dim ond am saith diwrnod ar ôl ei ryddhau yr oedd ganddo ddyletswydd tuag ato. A weithredodd yr awdurdod lleol hwnnw o fewn ysbryd eich canllawiau?
I understand that local connection is as defined in section 199 of the Housing Act 1996. In considering housing and defining a person’s connection with an area, the local authority must consider whether he or she previously resided there, was employed there, had family associations with the area or whether special circumstances apply. If you send me your constituent’s details and all the relevant information, I would be delighted to take that matter up.
Deallaf fod cyswllt lleol fel y’i diffinnir yn adran 199 Deddf Tai 1996. Wrth ystyried tai a diffinio cysylltiad rhywun ag ardal, rhaid i’r awdurdod lleol ystyried a fu’n byw yno o’r blaen, a fu’n gweithio yno, a oedd cysylltiadau teuluol â’r ardal neu a oes amgylchiadau arbennig. Os anfonwch fanylion eich etholwr ataf a’r holl wybodaeth berthnasol, byddwn wrth fy modd yn codi’r mater hwnnw.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 47
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
Before I turn to the business statement for the next three weeks, I wish to inform Members of changes to this week’s business, as discussed in the Business Committee meeting this morning. The motion to delegate the functions of the Homelessness Act 2002, the motion on the education special grant report and the debate on mental health inspections have been postponed. Three oral statements will be made on Thursday morning: first, the First Minister will make a statement on the south-east Wales regeneration framework; then Jane Hutt will make a statement on domestic violence; and, finally, the First Minister will make a short statement on the independent commission on Assembly powers.
Cyn troi at y datganiad busnes am y tair wythnos nesaf, hoffwn hysbysu Aelodau am newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon, fel a drafodwyd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma. Gohiriwyd y cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau Deddf Digartrefedd 2002, y cynnig ar adroddiad grant arbennig addysg a’r ddadl ar archwiliadau iechyd meddwl. Gwneir tri datganiad llafar fore dydd Iau: yn gyntaf, bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gwneud datganiad ar fframwaith adfywio’r De-ddwyrain; wedyn bydd Jane Hutt yn gwneud datganiad ar drais yn y cartref; ac, yn olaf, bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gwneud datganiad byr ar y comisiwn annibynnol ar bwerau’r Cynulliad.
The Business Committee discussed this morning my draft business statement for the next three weeks’ business, as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. Finally, the Deputy Presiding Officer has determined, under Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following items of legislation need not be referred to Subject Committees for extended consideration: the Education (School Information) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2002, the School Governors’ Annual Reports (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2002, the School Teacher Appraisal (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the School Government (Terms of Reference) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002.
Y bore yma trafododd y Pwyllgor Busnes fy natganiad busnes drafft am fusnes y tair wythnos nesaf, fel a ddangosir ar We’r Siambr dan ddogfennau ategol. Yn olaf, mae’r Dirprwy Lywydd wedi penderfynu, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitemau deddfwriaeth canlynol i’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc ar gyfer ystyriaeth estynedig: Rheoliadau Addysg (Gwybodaeth Ysgolion) (Cymru) (Diwygio) 2002, Rheoliadau Adroddiadau Blynyddol Llywodraethwyr Ysgolion (Cymru) (Diwygio) 2002, Rheoliadau Gwerthuso Athrawon Ysgol (Cymru) 2002, a Rheoliadau (Cylch Gwaith) Llywodraethu Ysgolion (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 48
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 48
A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes?
Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments on the business statement?
Yr ydych yn ymwybodol, Weinidog, bod tensiynau amlwg ar hyn o bryd yn y dwyrain canol. Pan oedd tensiynau amlwg yn Affganistan, cawsom ddatganiad a dadl ar y mater. A ydych yn fodlon ystyried priodoldeb un ai cael datganiad gan y Prif Weinidog neu ddadl ar faterion yn ymwneud â’r dwyrain canol a’u perthnasedd i Gymru?
You are aware, Minister, of the current tensions in the middle east. When there were tensions in Afghanistan, we had a statement and a debate on the matter. Are you willing to consider the appropriateness of having a statement by the First Minister or a debate on matters relating to the middle east and their relevance to Wales?
Bydd yn rhaid imi drafod hynny â’r Prif Weinidog er mwyn gweld a yw am wneud datganiad. Mae’n anodd dod o hyd i amser yn ein busnes ar hyn o bryd i faterion ychwanegol, ond bydd yn bosibl trafod hyn yr wythnos nesaf yn y Pwyllgor Busnes.
I will have to discuss this with the First Minister to see whether he wants to make a statement on this issue. It is difficult to find time in our business at present for additional matters, but it will be possible to discuss this next week in Business Committee.
You will be aware, I am sure, that the Audit Committee has published a damning report on the wind-up of Cardiff Bay Development Corporation and how it was handled by the administration some time ago. Naturally, the Welsh Assembly Government will need to respond to that. Can you give a timescale for that response?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol, yr wyf yn siŵr, bod y Pwyllgor Archwilio wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad damniol ar broses dirwyn i ben Corfforaeth Ddatblygu Bae Caerdydd a’r modd yr ymdriniwyd â hi gan y weinyddiaeth beth amser yn ôl. Yn naturiol, bydd angen i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ymateb I hynny. A allwch roi amserlen ar gyfer yr ymateb hwnnw?
My understanding is that the response must come within 30 days. I think that that is correct—if it is not I shall be corrected later. However, I understand that that is the case, and we will have to see what the response is and whether or not Members wish to take matters forward.
Fy nealltwriaeth i yw fod yn rhaid i’r ymateb ddod o fewn 30 diwrnod. Yr wyf yn meddwl bod hynny’n gywir—os nad yw caf fy nghywiro’n ddiweddarach. Fodd bynnag, deallaf mai dyna fel y mae, a bydd yn rhaid inni weld beth yw’r ymateb ac a ydyw Aelodau’n dymuno mynd â materion yn eu blaen ai peidio.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 2.7, which refers to the Ministerial Code of Conduct. I refer to paragraph 1.5, section 3 of the Ministerial Code. It relates to a response that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning gave to me on 21 March in relation to Emmanuel College in Gateshead, in which she said that ‘the organisation which promotes creationism’ was behind a proposal in Torfaen.
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2.7, sy’n cyfeirio at y Côd Ymddygiad i Weinidogion. Cyfeiriaf at baragraff 1.5, adran 3 o’r Côd i Weinidogion. Mae a wnelo hyn ag ymateb a roddodd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes imi ar 21 Mawrth ynglŷn â Choleg Emmanuel yn Gateshead, lle dywedodd hi fod ‘y corff sy’n hybu creadaeth’ y tu ôl i gynnig yn Nhorfaen.
I am have received of a copy of a letter addressed to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning from Mr David Vardy, the project director of Emmanuel College Educational Services Limited, denying this and asking that the Minister apologise for her inaccurate and misleading response. Will the Minister do so in line with the Ministerial Code of Conduct, under Standing Order No. 2?
Yr wyf wedi cael copi o lythyr a gyfeiriwyd at y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes oddi wrth Mr David Vardy, cyfarwyddwr prosiect Emmanuel College Educational Services Limited, yn gwadu hyn ac yn gofyn ar i’r Gweinidog ymddiheuro am ei hymateb anghywir a chamarweiniol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog hynny yn unol â’r Côd Ymddygiad i Weinidogion, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
This is a matter for the Minister. It is not a matter for me. I do not deal in theology.
Mater i’r Gweinidog yw hyn. Nid mater i mi ydyw. Nid wyf fi’n delio mewn diwinyddiaeth.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 15.43 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 15.43 p.m.
Ymgynghori ar Orchymyn Diwygio Rheoliadol (Cymorth Tai) (Cymru a Lloegr) 2002
Consultation on the Regulatory Reform (Housing Assistance) (England and Wales) Order 2002
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 49
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 49
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I am pleased to be able to introduce this debate today on the changes to private sector renewal, which will give local authorities exciting new opportunities to strategically tackle housing issues, in line with their local priorities. You will all have had the opportunity to see the copies of the Order and the explanatory document that accompanies it, which sets out the nature of the changes and explains how they will be introduced. You will also have had the opportunity, I hope, to look at the House of Commons and House of Lords Scrutiny Committee reports on the Order itself.
Mae’n dda gennyf allu cyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw ar y newidiadau i broses adnewyddu’r sector preifat, a fydd yn rhoi cyfleoedd cyffrous newydd i’r awdurdodau lleol fynd i’r afael yn strategol â materion tai, yn unol â’u blaenoriaethau lleol. Byddwch i gyd wedi cael y cyfle i weld copïau o’r Gorchymyn a’r ddogfen eglurhaol a ddaw gydag ef, sy’n amlinellu natur y newidiadau ac yn egluro sut y cânt eu cyflwyno. Byddwch wedi cael y cyfle hefyd, gobeithio, i edrych ar adroddiadau Pwyllgor Archwilio Tŷ’r Cyffredin a Thŷ’r Arglwyddi ar y Gorchymyn ei hun.
The proposed changes have been discussed by the Local Government and Housing Committee prior to today’s debate. The new proposals were subject to widespread consultation and have been generally welcomed by local authorities and other housing interests in Wales. The changes reflect the forward-looking principles that we have adopted in our national housing strategy by placing the responsibility for the development of local renewal policies with local authorities, where it should rightly rest. The new arrangements will increase local authorities’ flexibility to develop strategic solutions to housing issues in line with local pressures and priorities. Much of the current prescription will be removed, and authorities will have a wide range of opportunities to offer assistance. This will enable them to take decisions on local issues and to develop solutions that are sensitive to local housing and socio-economic conditions, as well as to the dynamics of local housing markets.
Mae’r newidiadau arfaethedig wedi’u trafod gan y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai cyn dadl heddiw. Bu ymgynghori eang ar y cynigion newydd ac fe’u croesawyd yn gyffredinol gan yr awdurdodau lleol a chyrff tai eraill yng Nghymru. Mae’r newidiadau’n adlewyrchu’r egwyddorion blaengar yr ydym wedi’u mabwysiadu yn ein strategaeth dai genedlaethol drwy osod y cyfrifoldeb dros ddatblygu polisïau adnewyddu lleol ar yr awdurdodau lleol, sef lle y dylai fod mewn gwirionedd. Bydd y trefniadau newydd yn cynyddu hyblygrwydd yr awdurdodau lleol i ddatblygu atebion strategol i faterion tai yn unol â phwysau a blaenoriaethau lleol. Gwneir i ffwrdd â llawer o’r rhagnodi cyfredol, a chaiff yr awdurdodau amrediad eang o gyfleoedd i gynnig cymorth. Bydd hyn yn eu galluogi i wneud penderfyniadau ar faterion lleol ac i ddatblygu atebion sy’n sensitif i amodau tai a chymdeithasol-economaidd lleol, yn ogystal ag i ddynameg marchnadoedd tai lleol.
The existing renovation grant regime and elements of the current loan regime will be replaced with a broad enabling power for local authorities to provide assistance. That could be through grants, loans, guarantees or assisting people to move to more suitable accommodation. The change involves a substantial element of deregulation and is being introduced using a regulatory reform Order. The Order has passed its first stage of parliamentary scrutiny and the Assembly is being asked to give its approval to the introduction of the Order today. I hope that you will join me in welcoming the new arrangements, which not only present a unique opportunity for local authorities to develop local solutions for local issues, but represent a significant step forward in our agenda of modernising local government.
Disodlir trefn bresennol grantiau adnewyddu ac elfennau o’r drefn fenthyciadau bresennol gan roi pŵer galluogi eang i’r awdurdodau lleol ddarparu cymorth. Gallai hynny fod drwy grantiau, benthyciadau, gwarantau neu gymorth i bobl symud i lety mwy addas. Mae’r newid yn golygu elfen sylweddol o ddadreoleiddio ac fe’i cyflwynir gan ddefnyddio Gorchymyn diwygio rheoliadau. Mae’r Gorchymyn wedi pasio’i gam cyntaf o archwilio seneddol a gofynnir i’r Cynulliad gymeradwyo cyflwyno’r Gorchymyn heddiw. Gobeithio yr ymunwch â mi i groesawu’r trefniadau newydd, a fydd nid yn unig yn cyflwyno cyfle unigryw i awdurdodau lleol ddatblygu atebion lleol i gwestiynau lleol, ond sydd yn gam arwyddocaol ymlaen yn ein hagenda ar gyfer moderneiddio llywodraeth leol.
The Order offers an opportunity to address the repairs needed in the private sector. Given the high percentage of home ownership in Wales, that is essential. It firmly puts responsibility for awarding grants for renovation to the private sector in local authorities’ hands. It also enables them to co-ordinate and target renewal work more efficiently. In 2000-01, £40.6 million was spent on renovation grant activity, and a further £10.9 million was spent on home repair assistance. If an average of £5,000 plus is spent on renovating a house in serious disrepair, that equates to some 51,000 properties. However, to halve the number of houses in disrepair, which is one of your Government’s targets, requires an estimated investment of £50 million. Will the Minister report to us on how that is to be funded? In that report, could she also tell us how each local council is progressing in developing its renewal plans?
Mae’r Gorchymyn yn cynnig cyfle i fynd i’r afael â’r gwaith trwsio sydd ei angen yn y sector preifat. Yn wyneb y ganran uchel sy’n berchen ar eu tai yng Nghymru, mae hynny’n hanfodol. Mae’n rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb am ddyfarnu grantiau adnewyddu i’r sector preifat yn gadarn yn nwylo’r awdurdodau lleol. Mae hefyd yn eu galluogi i gydgysylltu a thargedu gwaith adnewyddu’n fwy effeithlon. Yn 2000-01, gwariwyd £40.6 miliwn ar weithgaredd grantiau adnewyddu, a gwariwyd £10.9 miliwn ar ben hynny ar gymorth atgyweirio tai. Os gwerir cyfartaledd o £5,000 a mwy ar adnewyddu tŷ sydd mewn cyflwr difrifol, mae hynny’n hafal i ryw 51,000 o dai. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn haneru’r nifer o dai sydd mewn cyflwr difrifol, sydd yn un o dargedau’ch Llywodraeth, byddai angen buddsoddi amcangyfrif o £50 miliwn. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi adroddiad inni’n dweud sut y telir am hynny? Yn yr adroddiad hwnnw, a all hi ddweud wrthym hefyd sut y mae pob cyngor lleol yn dod yn ei flaen gyda datblygu ei gynlluniau adnewyddu?
Although the aim of these measures is to encourage home owners to take responsibility for maintaining their homes, it is important that the assistance is prioritised so that households at most risk and home owners who do not have the resources to finance repair work are helped first. The scheme offers the opportunity for authorities to develop equity release schemes to help lower-income households without affecting current income, which is to be welcomed. They would also have to offer access to independent financial advice to protect the borrower’s interests.
Er mai nod y mesurau hyn yw annog perchenogion tai i gymryd cyfrifoldeb am gynnal eu cartrefi, mae’n bwysig rhoi’r cymorth yn nhrefn blaenoriaeth fel bod cartrefi sy’n wynebu’r risg fwyaf a pherchenogion tai sydd heb yr adnoddau i dalu am waith trwsio yn cael cymorth yn gyntaf. Mae’r cynllun yn cynnig y cyfle i awdurdodau ddatblygu cynlluniau rhyddhau ecwiti i helpu teuluoedd ar incwm is heb effeithio ar eu hincwm cyfredol, sydd i’w groesawu. Byddai’n rhaid iddynt gynnig mynediad at gyngor ariannol annibynnol hefyd i warchod buddiannau’r benthyciwr.
Authorities will also be able to prioritise the repair of houses that are having a negative impact on an area. That, again, is important, especially in improvement scheme areas.
Bydd awdurdodau’n gallu rhoi blaenoriaeth hefyd i drwsio tai sy’n cael effaith negyddol ar ardal. Mae hynny, eto, yn bwysig, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd cynllun gwella.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
Order. There is too much noise in the Chamber and I am having difficulty in hearing Janet.
Trefn. Mae gormod o sŵn yn y Siambr ac yr wyf yn cael trafferth clywed Janet.
That does not often happen.
Nid yw hynny’n digwydd yn aml.
At present, councils can start an improvement programme in an area, but can only upgrade those properties over which they have control. Many schemes are delayed because property is in private hands. These measures offer a means for a complete area improvement scheme as a council can use its enforcement powers, its compulsory purchase powers, or negotiate purchase, as part of the renewal strategy. Areas like Colwyn Bay and Rhyl will undoubtedly benefit from that. These proposals will allow grants to be awarded where no other option is available. Authorities should be free to use loan-giving powers to assist a wider range of people. An important component of these proposals is to ensure that disabled people are given more choice in assistance to adapt their homes. While this will give local authorities more advantages, such as greater discretion to address local needs and better use of available resources, I hope that the opportunity is taken to use local traders, local craftspeople and local produce to ensure that all of the benefits of this scheme return to local communities.
Ar hyn o bryd, gall cynghorau gychwyn rhaglen wella mewn ardal, ond ni allant ond uwchraddio’r eiddo hynny y mae ganddynt reolaeth drostynt. Caiff llawer o gynlluniau eu hoedi am fod eiddo mewn dwylo preifat. Mae’r mesurau hyn yn cynnig modd i wneud cynllun gwella dros ardal gyfan gan y gall cyngor ddefnyddio’i bwerau gorfodi, ei bwerau prynu gorfodol, neu negodi pryniant, fel rhan o’r strategaeth adnewyddu. Bydd ardaloedd fel Bae Colwyn a’r Rhyl heb os ar eu hennill o hynny. Bydd y cynigion hyn yn caniatáu dyfarnu grantiau lle nad oes dim dewis arall ar gael. Dylai’r awdurdodau fod yn rhydd i ddefnyddio pwerau rhoi benthyciad i gynorthwyo amrediad ehangach o bobl. Rhan bwysig o’r cynigion hyn yw sicrhau y caiff pobl anabl fwy o ddewis o ran cymorth i addasu’u cartrefi. Tra bydd hyn yn rhoi mwy o fanteision i’r awdurdodau lleol, fel mwy o ddisgresiwn i ymdrin ag anghenion lleol a gwell defnydd o’r adnoddau sydd ar gael, gobeithiaf yr achubir ar y cyfle i ddefnyddio masnachwyr lleol, crefftwyr lleol a chynnyrch lleol i sicrhau y dychwelir holl fanteision y cynllun hwn i’r cymunedau lleol.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats are in favour of these proposals, given our strong commitment to improving the lives of people who are forced to live with poor housing standards. Housing standards have been declining in Wales for some time and it is time for us to reverse that. That the Assembly Government has reversed the decline in funding for improvement grants is to be commended. However, we still need to find more money. The changes laid out in the reform Order will increase local authorities’ ability to develop strategic solutions to housing issues in line with their local pressures and priorities. Much of the current proscription will be removed and authorities will have a wide range of opportunities to offer assistance. That could take the form of grants, loans, purchases of alternative homes and the development of co-ordinated strategic solutions to housing problems. Local authorities and other housing interests in Wales have generally welcomed the proposals and we should also welcome them.
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymreig o blaid y cynigion hyn, o gofio’n hymrwymiad cryf i wella bywydau pobl a orfodir i fyw gyda safonau tai gwael. Bu safonau tai’n dirywio yng Nghymru ers peth amser ac mae’n bryd inni wrthdroi hynny. Mae’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi gwrthdroi’r dirywiad o ran cyllid ar gyfer grantiau gwella i’w chymeradwyo. Serch hynny, mae angen inni ganfod mwy o arian o hyd. Bydd y newidiadau a amlinellir yn y Gorchymyn diwygio’n cynyddu gallu’r awdurdodau lleol i ddatblygu atebion strategol i gwestiynau tai yn unol â’u pwysau a’u blaenoriaethau lleol. Tynnir llawer o’r gwaharddiadau cyfredol a chaiff yr awdurdodau amrediad eang o gyfleoedd i gynnig cymorth. Gallai hynny fod ar ffurf grantiau, benthyciadau, prynu cartrefi amgen a datblygu atebion strategol cydgysylltiol i broblemau tai. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol a chyrff tai eraill yng Nghymru wedi croesawu’r cynigion yn gyffredinol a dylem ninnau eu croesawu hefyd.
The Welsh Conservatives welcome the measures contained in the Order today and associate ourselves with previous speakers’ remarks.
Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn croesawu’r mesurau a geir yn y Gorchymyn heddiw ac yn uniaethu’n hunain â sylwadau’r siaradwr blaenorol.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 52
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
I welcome Members’ comments on this important issue, and the general welcome given these proposals, which means that issues are beginning to progress. Janet, I will not give a further report to Plenary, but I will update the Committee on the issues that you raised. There are several key areas here for local government, to which you alluded, and of which they must take advantage. It is important that the arrangements enable local authorities to take a better strategic approach through more flexibility. Authorities will have to publish a housing renewal policy that identifies their local priorities and sets out where they propose to deliver this locally. I hope that they will take advantage of these new arrangements and ensure that they maximise their potential. As you indicated, public resources are important in this regard and must be used properly. I will report back to the Local Government and Housing Committee on how this is being implemented across Welsh local government in due course. I commend the motion to you.
Croesawaf sylwadau’r Aelodau ar y mater pwysig hwn, a’r croeso cyffredinol a roddwyd i’r cynigion hyn, sy’n golygu fod materion yn dechrau symud ymlaen. Janet, ni roddaf adroddiad pellach i’r Cyfarfod Llawn, ond fe roddaf y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Pwyllgor ar y materion a godwyd gennych. Mae sawl maes allweddol yma i lywodraeth leol, a grybwyllwyd gennych chi, ac y mae’n rhaid iddynt fanteisio arnynt. Mae’n bwysig bod y trefniadau’n galluogi’r awdurdodau lleol i weithredu mewn ffordd strategol well drwy fod yn fwy hyblyg. Bydd yn rhaid i’r awdurdodau gyhoeddi polisi adnewyddu tai sy’n nodi eu blaenoriaethau lleol ac yn amlinellu ble y bwriadant gyflawni hyn yn lleol. Gobeithiaf y manteisiant ar y trefniadau newydd hyn a sicrhau eu bod yn gwneud y gorau o’u potensial. Fel y dywedasoch, mae adnoddau cyhoeddus yn bwysig yn hyn o beth a rhaid eu defnyddio’n briodol. Byddaf yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar y modd y mae hyn yn cael ei weithredu ar draws llywodraeth leol Cymru maes o law. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i chi.
Cynnig NDM1024 Edwina Hart t. 53
Motion NDM1024 Edwina Hart p. 53
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cefnogi Pobl yng Nghymru
Supporting People in Wales
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 54
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I have selected amendments 1, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendment 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 3, 4 a 5 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 54
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
The principle aim of Supporting People is to provide better quality services focused on the needs of users. This will be achieved in two ways. First, it will end the existing funding restrictions, which have meant that support is mostly limited to housing association property; in future, it will be available to vulnerable people regardless of where they live. Secondly, it will replace funding available through the housing benefit system with a grant mechanism. Supporting People funding will introduce accountability through its monitoring and evaluation mechanisms. Although Supporting People is a UK-wide initiative, we are developing our own policies to get maximum value for the people of Wales from the money at our disposal. It will help deliver each of the guiding principles that the Welsh Assembly Government set out in our ‘Plan for Wales 2001’. Supporting People is designed to help and support some of our most vulnerable citizens by helping them maintain their own accommodation, thereby giving them a level of independence.
Prif nod Cefnogi Pobl yw darparu gwasanaethau o ansawdd gwell gan ganolbwyntio ar anghenion defnyddwyr. Cyflawnir hyn mewn dwy ffordd. Yn gyntaf, bydd yn rhoi terfyn ar y cyfyngiadau ariannu presennol, a olygai fod cymorth wedi’i gyfyngu’n bennaf i eiddo cymdeithasau tai; yn y dyfodol, bydd ar gael i bobl fregus ble bynnag y bônt yn byw. Yn ail, bydd yn rhoi peirianwaith grant yn lle y cyllid oedd ar gael drwy’r system budd-dal tai. Bydd cyllid Cefnogi Pobl yn cyflwyno atebolrwydd drwy ei fecanweithiau monitro ac arfarnu. Er bod Cefnogi Pobl yn fenter ar draws y DU, yr ydym yn datblygu’n polisïau ein hunain i gael y gwerth mwyaf i bobl Cymru o’r arian sydd gennym wrth law. Bydd yn helpu i gyflawni pob un o’r egwyddorion arweiniol a amlinellodd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ein ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’. Amcan Cefnogi Pobl yw helpu a chefnogi rhai o’n dinasyddion mwyaf bregus drwy eu helpu i gadw eu llety eu hunain, gan roi iddynt felly rywfaint o annibyniaeth.
Communities will benefit and become, in turn, more sustainable. The cycles of homelessness and joblessness are not just tragedies for individuals, but reflect on the communities themselves. Supporting People has a clear equality dimension. It will mean working with those who are discriminated against, ranging from older people to people with mental health problems. Our guidance document, ‘Supporting People in Wales: The Next Steps Towards Implementation’, was published in October last year. It sets out our vision for the Welsh structure of the Supporting People programme and includes a timetable for implementation. It requires the Welsh Assembly Government, local government and service providers to work together to deliver that vision. It also sets out a funding framework, which recognises Welsh circumstances. From 1 April 2003, funding for sheltered housing and community care provision will transfer to local authorities as part of revenue support grant. The Government will retain a role in funding other services through the creation of a Supporting People revenue grant.
Bydd cymunedau’n elwa ac, yn eu tro, yn mynd yn fwy cynaliadwy. Mae cylchoedd digartrefedd a diweithdra nid yn unig yn drychinebau i unigolion, ond yn adlewyrchu ar y cymunedau eu hunain. Mae gan Cefnogi Pobl ddimensiwn clir o gydraddoldeb. Bydd yn golygu gweithio gyda phobl y gwahaniaethir yn eu herbyn, yn amrywio o bobl hŷn i bobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl. Cyhoeddwyd ein canllawiau, ‘Cefnogi Pobl yng Nghymru: y Camau Nesaf Tuag at Weithredu’ yn Hydref y llynedd. Mae’n amlinellu’n gweledigaeth ar gyfer strwythur Cymreig y rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl ac yn cynnwys amserlen ar gyfer gweithredu. Mae’n gofyn ar i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, llywodraeth leol a darparwyr gwasanaethau weithio gyda’i gilydd i wireddu’r weledigaeth honno. Mae hefyd yn amlinellu fframwaith cyllido, sy’n cydnabod amgylchiadau Cymru. O 1 Ebrill 2003, trosglwyddir cyllid ar gyfer darpariaeth tai gwarchod a gofal yn y gymuned i awdurdodau lleol fel rhan o’r grant cynnal refeniw. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn cadw rôl o ran ariannu gwasanaethau eraill drwy greu grant refeniw Cefnogi Pobl.
We are conscious that a change as significant as Supporting People can introduce uncertainties for service providers and service users. With that in mind, the guidance includes funding commitments to local authorities and projects. These commitments offer assurance to current users and give providers the confidence to continue to develop services. I have decided that in the longer term it will be appropriate to transfer the entire Supporting People revenue grant to local authorities. I am aware that some providers have expressed concern about this decision, but I offer reassurance to providers because I believe that those concerns are unfounded. My decision is entirely consistent with the broader approach that we have in Government to our relationship with local government. The fact that we are not making an immediate transfer is a reflection of the work that is necessary to prepare authorities for transfer. However, I am convinced that authorities will be better placed to develop local strategies when they also have control of the funding. The lead-in period to April 2006 will give authorities the opportunity to develop the skills necessary for long-term planning and to create closer working relationships with support providers. I have set out the criteria for the negotiation of the transfer in the paper. These will ensure that the development described will have taken place by then.
Yr ydym yn ymwybodol y gall newid mor arwyddocaol â Chefnogi Pobl achosi ansicrwydd i ddarparwyr gwasanaethau a defnyddwyr gwasanaethau. Gan gofio hynny, mae’r canllawiau’n cynnwys ymrwymiadau ariannu i awdurdodau lleol a phrosiectau. Mae’r ymrwymiadau hyn yn cynnig sicrwydd i ddefnyddwyr cyfredol ac yn rhoi hyder i ddarparwyr barhau i ddatblygu gwasanaethau. Yr wyf wedi penderfynu y bydd yn briodol yn y tymor hwy i drosglwyddo’r cyfan o’r grant refeniw Cefnogi Pobl i’r awdurdodau lleol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod rhai darparwyr wedi mynegi pryder ynglŷn â’r penderfyniad hwn, ond cynigiaf sicrwydd i ddarparwyr oherwydd credaf fod y pryderon hynny’n ddi-sail. Mae fy mhenderfyniad yn gwbl gyson â’r agwedd ehangach sydd gennym yn y Llywodraeth tuag at ein perthynas â llywodraeth leol. Mae’r ffaith nad ydym yn trosglwyddo’n syth yn adlewyrchu’r gwaith sy’n angenrheidiol i baratoi awdurdodau ar gyfer y trosglwyddo. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn argyhoeddiedig y bydd awdurdodau mewn sefyllfa well i ddatblygu strategaethau lleol pan fydd ganddynt reolaeth dros y cyllid hefyd. Bydd y cyfnod arweiniol hyd at Ebrill 2006 yn rhoi’r cyfle i’r awdurdodau ddatblygu’r sgiliau angenrheidiol ar gyfer cynllunio tymor hir a chreu perthynas weithio agosach â darparwyr cefnogaeth. Yr wyf wedi pennu’r meini prawf ar gyfer negodi’r trosglwyddiad yn y papur. Bydd y rhain yn sicrhau y bydd y datblygiad a ddisgrifiwyd wedi digwydd erbyn hynny.
I have also published guidance on the identification of support costs within local authority rent pools. I have made commitments to fund those costs as part of the transfer to local authorities. This is an example of our efforts to ensure that the introduction of Supporting People carries with it as little disruption as possible.
Yr wyf hefyd wedi cyhoeddi canllawiau ar adnabod costau cymorth o fewn cronfeydd rhent awdurdodau lleol. Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i ariannu’r costau hynny fel rhan o’r trosglwyddiad i awdurdodau lleol. Dyma enghraifft o’n hymdrechion i sicrhau y gellir cyflwyno Cefnogi Pobl gyda chyn lleied o anhwylustod ag sy’n bosibl.
I have consulted on the difficult issue of charging for support provision. As you know, many people are responsible for paying for some of their support costs through the housing benefit system. However, all of the options available to us have implications, and there are no easy answers. I am considering the responses to the consultation and will be discussing the matter with the Local Government and Housing Committee in the near future.
Yr wyf wedi ymgynghori ar fater anodd codi tâl am wasanaethau a ddarperir. Fel y gwyddoch, mae llawer o bobl yn gyfrifol am dalu rhywfaint o gostau eu cymorth drwy’r system fudd-dal tai. Fodd bynnag, mae goblygiadau i bob un o’r dewisiadau sydd ar gael inni, ac nid oes dim atebion hawdd. Yr wyf yn ystyried yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad a byddaf yn trafod y mater â’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yn y dyfodol agos.
Supporting People will be implemented from 1 April next year. From that date, support costs will not be eligible for housing benefit. Although there is still much work to be done in preparing for Supporting People, by working closely with all of those involved in the process, we will be prepared for the transition. Next month, we will publish draft guidance for local authorities. This will deal with the authorities’ responsibilities for strategic planning of Supporting People services and the conduct of their administrative duties. We will also be accrediting service providers and undertaking a large administrative process to establish existing levels of project funding. These tasks are vital because they underpin the continued provision of services to users. In Supporting People, the devil is very much in the detail. We have established a series of consultation mechanisms to ensure that these details are handled effectively.
Gweithredir Cefnogi Pobl o 1 Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf. O’r dyddiad hwnnw, ni fydd costau cymorth yn gymwys ar gyfer budd-dal tai. Er bod llawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd i baratoi ar gyfer Cefnogi Pobl, drwy weithio’n agos gyda phawb sy’n ymwneud â’r broses, byddwn yn barod ar gyfer y newid. Y mis nesaf, byddwn yn cyhoeddi canllawiau drafft ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol. Bydd y rhain yn delio â chyfrifoldebau’r awdurdodau am gynllunio strategol gwasanaethau Cefnogi Pobl a’r modd y cyflawnant eu dyletswyddau gweinyddol. Byddwn hefyd yn achredu darparwyr gwasanaethau ac yn ymgymryd â phroses weinyddol fawr i sefydlu lefelau presennol cyllid prosiectau. Mae’r tasgau hyn yn allweddol gan eu bod yn sail i barhau’r ddarpariaeth wasanaethau i ddefnyddwyr. Yn Cefnogi Pobl, yn y manylion y mae trwch y gwaith. Yr ydym wedi sefydlu cyfres o beirianweithiau ymgynghori i sicrhau yr ymdrinnir yn effeithiol â’r manylion hyn.
I now turn to the amendments. Amendment 1, in the name of Jocelyn Davies, calls on me to establish inter-agency fora. I will oppose this amendment, not because I disagree with the promotion of good practice, but because this is a matter to be tackled locally. It is also adequately dealt with in the guidance we have already given. ‘Supporting People in Wales: The Next Steps Towards Implementation’ required local authorities to establish a communication strategy by October of last year. It also gives specific guidance on involving fully registered social landlords and support providers at all levels.
Trof yn awr at y gwelliannau. Mae gwelliant 1, yn enw Jocelyn Davies, yn galw arnaf fi i sefydlu fforymau rhwng asiantaethau. Gwrthwynebaf y gwelliant hwn, nid am fy mod yn anghytuno â hyrwyddo ymarfer da, ond oherwydd mai mater i fynd i’r afael ag ef yn lleol yw hyn. Ymdrinnir ag ef yn ddigonol hefyd yn y canllawiau yr ydym eisoes wedi’u rhoi. Galwodd ‘Cefnogi Pobl yng Nghymru: y Camau Nesaf Tuag at Weithredu’ ar awdurdodau lleol i sefydlu strategaeth gyfathrebu erbyn mis Hydref y llynedd. Mae hefyd yn rhoi arweiniad penodol y dylid cynnwys darparwyr cymorth a landlordiaid cymdeithasol sydd wedi cofrestru’n llawn ar bob lefel.
Amendment 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan advocates the provision of specific advice to individuals. While it is important that all potential users of support services are offered such advice, this must be a role of local agencies and the responsibility of local authorities. Our guidance to authorities will make clear the appropriate role of all local agencies, but this is not a task that is practicable for the Assembly to undertake. I will therefore oppose the amendment.
Mae gwelliant 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan yn dadlau dros ddarparu cyngor penodol i unigolion. Er ei bod yn bwysig y darperir cyngor o’r fath i bawb a allai fod yn ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau cymorth, rhaid i hyn fod yn waith asiantaethau lleol ac yn gyfrifoldeb awdurdodau lleol. Bydd ein canllawiau i’r awdurdodau yn nodi’n glir rôl briodol yr holl asiantaethau lleol, ond nid yw hon yn dasg y mae’n ymarferol i’r Cynulliad ymgymryd â hi. Gwrthwynebaf y gwelliant felly.
Amendment 3 calls on me to address uncertainties about funding post 2006. As I indicated earlier, I am aware of the concerns about the 2006 target date for transfer of the Supporting People revenue grant. The nature of the transfer and the structure of arrangements to be made by local authorities will be the subject of negotiation and consultation. I have included the criteria for those negotiations in our guidance. These include the securing of clear commitments by authorities to assure providers about long-term funding arrangements. Therefore, I will not support the amendment, as it is unnecessary.
Mae gwelliant 3 yn galw arnaf i weithredu ynglŷn â’r ansicrwydd ynghylch ariannu wedi 2006. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryderon ynglŷn â’r dyddiad targed yn 2006 ar gyfer trosglwyddo grant refeniw Cefnogi Pobl. Bydd natur y trosglwyddiad a strwythur y trefniadau a wneir gan awdurdodau lleol yn destun negodi ac ymgynghori. Yr wyf wedi cynnwys y meini prawf ar gyfer y negodi hwnnw yn ein canllawiau. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys sicrhau ymrwymiadau clir gan awdurdodau i roi sicrwydd i ddarparwyr ynghylch trefniadau ariannu tymor hir. Felly, ni chefnogaf y gwelliant, gan ei fod yn ddiangen.
Amendment 4 in the name of Jocelyn Davies advocates the establishment of cross-boundary arrangements for post 2006 administration. I will oppose this amendment because, as I have just said, details of the transfer are subject to negotiation and consultation with local authorities and other interested parties. It is not possible to anticipate the outcome of that process.
Mae gwelliant 4 yn enw Jocelyn Davies yn dadlau dros sefydlu trefniadau traws-ffiniol ar gyfer gweinyddu wedi 2006. Gwrthwynebaf y gwelliant hwn oherwydd, fel yr wyf newydd ddweud, bydd manylion y trosglwyddo’n destun negodi ac ymgynghori ag awdurdodau lleol a chyrff eraill sydd â diddordeb. Nid yw’n bosibl rhagweld canlyniad y broses honno.
Amendment 5 calls on me to make representations with regard to single room rent restrictions on housing benefit. As Jocelyn will be aware, I have now made representations on this matter on three occasions and am awaiting a response to the third. As this matter is not directly relevant to Supporting People, I will oppose this amendment, but I will pursue the issue.
Mae gwelliant 5 yn galw arnaf i bwyso am ddileu’r cyfyngiadau rhentu un ystafell ar fudd-dal tai. Fel y gŵyr Jocelyn, yr wyf erbyn hyn wedi cyflwyno sylwadau ar y mater hwn ar dri achlysur ac yr wyf yn aros am ateb i’r trydydd. Gan nad yw’r mater hwn yn uniongyrchol berthnasol i bwnc Cefnogi Pobl, gwrthwynebaf y gwelliant, ond af ar drywydd y mater.
As I indicated earlier, Supporting People has been developed to suit the needs of Wales, and it is another example of us creating the right policies for Wales. The policy will have a significant impact on the delivery of our guiding principles. It will also have a beneficial effect on the lives of many of our most vulnerable citizens. I commend the motion to you.
Fel a nodais yn gynharach, datblygwyd Cefnogi Pobl at anghenion Cymru, ac mae’n enghraifft arall ohonom ni’n creu’r polisïau iawn i Gymru. Caiff y polisi effaith arwyddocaol ar gyflawni ein hegwyddorion arweiniol. Caiff effaith fuddiol hefyd ar fywydau llawer o’n dinasyddion mwyaf bregus. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig ichi.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: add at end of point 2:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 2:
I propose amendment 3. Add at end of point 3:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd pwynt 3:
I propose amendment 4. Add as new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd:
I propose amendment 5. Add as new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd:
Supporting People in Wales is intended to lead to a simplified and transparent funding scheme to meet the needs of vulnerable people. The keys to its success are an effective partnership between the National Assembly and local authorities, and adequate funding. After 2006, the funding, as has been said, will be administered solely by local authorities. That is a cause of concern for many voluntary sector providers, as has been noted. Many groups are uncertain about their funding in 2002 and 2003. Their section 180 funding expired in March 2002, leaving a gap in funding until Supporting People is introduced in 2003. They have been told to apply under transitional housing benefit. That is a benefit, not a form of funding. That, combined with inconsistency in local authorities’ approach to paying support costs, as mentioned by the Minister, means that the funding of support payment is fragmented. Where will the 2002-03 allocation of section 180 funding be channelled? How will groups get over that gap of a year in funding, if those applications, which are necessary, are not supported?
Bwriedir i Cefnogi Pobl yng Nghymru arwain at gynllun ariannu symlach a thryloyw i ddiwallu anghenion pobl fregus. Yr allweddi i lwyddiant y cynllun yw partneriaeth effeithiol rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r awdurdodau lleol, a chyllid digonol. Wedi 2006, caiff y cyllid, fel a ddywedwyd, ei weinyddu’n llwyr gan awdurdodau lleol. Mae hynny’n achos pryder i lawer o ddarparwyr y sector gwirfoddol, fel a nodwyd. Mae llawer o grwpiau’n ansicr ynglŷn â’u cyllid yn 2002 a 2003. Daeth eu cyllid adran 180 i ben ym Mawrth 2002, gan adael bwlch yn y cyllid hyd nes cyflwynir Cefnogi Pobl yn 2003. Dywedwyd wrthynt am wneud cais dan fudd-dal tai trosiannol. Budd-dal yw hwnnw, nid ffurf ar gyllid. Mae hynny, ynghyd ag anghysondeb agweddau’r awdurdodau lleol at dalu costau cymorth, fel a grybwyllwyd gan y Gweinidog, yn golygu y bydd y cyllid ar gyfer taliadau cymorth yn fratiog. I ble y sianelir dyraniad 2002-03 o’r cyllid adran 180? Sut y gwnaiff grwpiau oresgyn y bwlch hwnnw o flwyddyn yn eu cyllid, os na chefnogir y ceisiadau hynny, sydd yn angenrheidiol?
There is anxiety in the voluntary sector that this funding, which is core funding for many groups, will not be continued after 2003. That is already impeding, rather than encouraging, development. The Government should encourage partnership working across all sectors to become a reality. That is the basis of amendment 1.
Mae pryder yn y sector gwirfoddol na chaiff yr arian hwn, sy’n gyllid craidd i lawer o grwpiau, ei barhau ar ôl 2003. Mae hynny eisoes yn rhwystro, yn hytrach nag yn annog, datblygiad. Dylai’r Llywodraeth annog gweithio mewn partneriaeth ar draws pob sector. Dyna sail gwelliant 1.
Following guidance issued in 2001, local authorities should have now mapped out the current provision of support services. They should have set up databases and identified gaps in service provision. Will the Minister tell us whether a clear picture is emerging as to what progress authorities have made and what work needs to be developed? Are there issues that the Assembly should address and target—perhaps the core funding of certain groups which work across Wales?
Yn sgîl y canllawiau a gyhoeddwyd yn 2001, dylai awdurdodau lleol bellach fod wedi mapio’r ddarpariaeth bresennol o wasanaethau cymorth. Dylent fod wedi sefydlu cronfeydd data a nodi bylchau yn narpariaeth gwasanaethau. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym a oes darlun clir yn ymddangos o ran pa gamau y mae awdurdodau wedi’u cymryd a pha waith sydd angen ei ddatblygu? A oes materion y dylai’r Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â hwy a’u targedu—cyllid craidd i rai grwpiau sy’n gweithio ar draws Cymru, efallai?
Point 2 of the motion notes that the full potential of Supporting People can only be realised by partnership working across all sectors. Plaid Cymru would add to that the promotion of best practice, such as the creation of local fora, like those established by Gwynedd Council and Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, whereby council officials and providers meet to discuss issues. Given that Supporting People is seen as a housing initiative, local fora offer an opportunity to involve health services—including mental health services—and social services, all of which are important in developing this support.
Mae pwynt 2 y cynnig yn nodi mai dim ond drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth ar draws pob sector y gellir gwireddu llawn botensial Cefnogi Pobl. Byddai Plaid Cymru’n ychwanegu at hynny hyrwyddo ymarfer gorau, fel creu fforymau lleol, fel y rhai a sefydlwyd gan Gyngor Gwynedd a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, lle bydd swyddogion y cyngor a darparwyr yn cyfarfod i drafod materion. Gan y gwelir Cefnogi Pobl fel menter yn ymwneud â thai, mae fforymau lleol yn cynnig cyfle i gynnwys gwasanaethau iechyd—a gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn eu plith—a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, sydd oll yn bwysig wrth ddatblygu’r cymorth hwn.
There is confusion among service providers, and the National Assembly needs to issue guidance so that they know what they must do to comply with the law, especially given some of the points in the Minister’s statement. Will she issue further guidance on what groups can bid for that transitional housing benefit pot? It is important that all groups and individuals receive advice, and therefore we will support Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 2. However, as I said initially, the new grant must be adequately funded. One way of ensuring that enough money is transferred to the scheme in 2003 is to increase the transitional housing benefit payments between 2002 and 2003. Housing benefit officers’ treatment of claims and their understanding of the long-term potential of this is therefore crucial.
Mae dryswch ymysg darparwyr gwasanaethau, ac mae angen i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gyhoeddi canllawiau er mwyn iddynt wybod beth y mae’n rhaid iddynt ei wneud i gydymffurfio â’r gyfraith, yn enwedig o ystyried rhai o’r pwyntiau yn natganiad y Gweinidog. A wnaiff hi roi canllawiau pellach ar ba grwpiau all wneud cais am y pot budd-dal tai trosiannol hwnnw? Mae’n bwysig bod pob grŵp ac unigolyn yn cael cyngor, ac felly byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 2 gan Jonathan Morgan. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais ar y dechrau, rhaid i’r grant newydd gael ei ariannu’n ddigonol. Un ffordd o sicrhau y caiff digon o arian ei drosglwyddo i’r cynllun yn 2003 yw cynyddu’r taliadau budd-dal tai trosiannol rhwng 2002 a 2003. Mae’r modd y bydd swyddogion budd-dal tai’n trin hawliadau a’u dealltwriaeth o botensial hyn yn y tymor hir felly yn allweddol.
The Department of Work and Pensions suggests measures such as increasing existing support charges—which the Minister now says that she will not allow—and identifying new schemes that could be funded by transitional housing benefit, thereby influencing the overall size of the Supporting People pot. That is the only opportunity to do this. The Assembly has supported it up to now but the attitude of local authorities to the payment of transitional housing benefit in this financial year will be crucial. I think that all Members know of the problems that have dogged the transitional housing benefit scheme.
Mae’r Adran Waith a Phensiynau’n awgrymu mesurau fel cynyddu taliadau cymorth presennol—mae’r Gweinidog yn awr yn dweud na fydd hi’n ei ganiatáu—a nodi cynlluniau newydd y gellid eu hariannu gan fudd-dal tai trosiannol, gan ddylanwadu felly ar faint cyffredinol pot Cefnogi Pobl. Dyna’r unig gyfle i wneud hyn. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi ei gefnogi hyd yma ond bydd agwedd awdurdodau lleol at dalu budd-dal tai trosiannol yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon yn hollbwysig. Credaf y gŵyr yr Aelodau i gyd am y problemau a fu’n fwrn ar y cynllun budd-dal tai trosiannol.
Women’s aid groups are stark examples of groups that have lost out because unpaid or delayed housing benefits can rarely be recovered from claimants. The non-payment of support charges—I am certain that the Minister said that—will cause concern to groups such as women’s aid groups because their part in helping to increase that transitional housing benefit pot this year was going to be by means of increasing existing support charges to refuge residents, identifying new support schemes and developing new Supporting People projects. There are many other similar ideas being proposed by different groups. Previously, officials of the National Assembly and central Government in London indicated that these would all qualify for transitional housing benefit, as long as local authorities considered them to be reasonable.
Mae grwpiau cymorth menywod yn enghreifftiau moel o grwpiau a fu ar eu colled oherwydd na all budd-daliadau tai na thalwyd neu a oedwyd bron byth gael eu hadennill gan hawlwyr. Bydd peidio â thalu taliadau cymorth—yr wyf yn siŵr y dywedodd y Gweinidog hynny—yn achosi pryder i grwpiau fel grwpiau cymorth merched oherwydd bod eu rhan hwy o ran helpu i gynyddu pot y budd-dal tai trosiannol eleni i fod trwy gynyddu taliadau cymorth presennol a godir ar breswylwyr noddfeydd, nodi cynlluniau cymorth newydd a datblygu prosiectau Cefnogi Pobl newydd. Mae llawer o syniadau eraill tebyg yn cael eu cynnig gan wahanol grwpiau. Gynt, yr oedd swyddogion y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r Llywodraeth ganolog yn Llundain wedi mynegi y byddai’r rhain i gyd yn gymwys ar gyfer budd-dal tai trosiannol, cyn belled â bod awdurdodau lleol yn ystyried eu bod yn rhesymol.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61
Order. You need to wind up now, Janet.
Trefn. Mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr, Janet.
This is a crucial point, because this will determine how much money is transferred in 2003 and it needs to be clarified.
Mae hwn yn bwynt allweddol, oherwydd bydd hyn yn penderfynu faint o arian a drosglwyddir yn 2003 ac mae angen ei egluro.
I propose amendment 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. After point 2, insert a new point and renumber accordingly:
Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ar ôl pwynt 2, ychwanegu pwynt ac ailrifo’r pwyntiau sy’n weddill yn ôl y gofyn:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 62
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
The changing nature of our population, with an increasing number of retired people and the provision of services to encourage people to live within our communities, requires a policy initiative with the aim of supporting people.
Mae natur newidiol ein poblogaeth, gyda nifer cynyddol o bobl wedi ymddeol a darpariaeth gwasanaethau i annog pobl i fyw yn ein cymunedau, yn galw am fenter polisi gyda’r nod o gefnogi pobl.
We realise that many elements need to be drawn together in dealing with this matter. We must not seek to enlarge the problem through encouraging people to leave home, and increasing the strain upon our limited social housing resources. However, for varying and relevant reasons we must ensure that no individual is denied access to the service provision that they need.
Sylweddolwn fod angen dwyn nifer o elfennau ynghyd wrth ddelio â’r mater hwn. Rhaid inni beidio â cheisio chwyddo’r broblem drwy annog pobl i adael cartref, a chynyddu’r straen ar ein hadnoddau tai cymdeithasol cyfyngedig. Fodd bynnag, am resymau amrywiol a pherthnasol rhaid inni sicrhau na wrthodir i unrhyw unigolyn gael mynediad at ddarpariaeth y gwasanaeth sydd ei angen arnynt.
The fact that local government spending is no longer ring-fenced requires total transparency on all funding given to addressing this matter. The overlapping policies to tackle social issues must not allow a blurring of accountability. These actions will ensure that money is targeted toward those in most need, and will provide the clearest indications that all those who require assistance receive the services they need. These measures will also ensure correct and adequate funding for cross-boundary initiatives after the transfer of funding to local authorities, and will ensure that they are applied equitably.
Mae’r ffaith nad yw gwariant llywodraeth leol mwyach wedi’i bridiannu yn gofyn am dryloywder llwyr ar bob cyllid a roddir i fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn. Ni ddylai’r polisïau gorgyffyrddol ar gyfer ymdrin â materion cymdeithasol ganiatáu cymylu atebolrwydd. Bydd y gweithredoedd hyn yn sicrhau y targedir arian at y rhai sydd â’r angen mwyaf, a rhoddant yr arwyddion cliriaf fod pawb sydd eisiau cymorth yn cael y gwasanaethau y mae arnynt eu hangen. Bydd y mesurau hyn hefyd yn sicrhau cyllid cywir a digonol ar gyfer mentrau traws-ffiniol wedi i’r cyllid gael ei drosglwyddo i awdurdodau lleol, ac yn sicrhau y’u gweithredir yn deg.
In this new system of providing assistance, it is vital that all eligible persons, especially those recognised as being the most vulnerable, receive adequate and specific advice to maximise the support available to them. We need to establish and promote the lines of communication that will allow the greatest access to information, to the services available and to a clear definition of those eligible to receive these services. This will involve all the community consultation groups arising from the Communities First and community regeneration programmes. It is necessary to ensure that all views within every community are allowed to be voiced, that openness is paramount and that no-one is excluded from expressing those views. We need to incorporate the one-stop shops, citizens’ advice bureaux and community housing advice centres, along with registered social landlords into this defined line of communication. If we achieve this system for providing advice and are more easily able to identify those people eligible for these services, we will be effectively supporting people in Wales.
Yn y system newydd hon o ddarparu cymorth, mae’n hollbwysig fod pawb cymwys, yn enwedig y rhai a gydnabyddir fel y rhai mwyaf bregus, yn cael cyngor digonol a phenodol i wneud y gorau o’r gefnogaeth sydd ar gael iddynt. Mae angen sefydlu a hyrwyddo’r llinellau cyfathrebu a fydd yn caniatáu’r mwyaf o fynediad at wybodaeth, at y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael ac at ddiffiniad clir o’r rhai sy’n gymwys i dderbyn y gwasanaethau hyn. Bydd hyn yn cynnwys pob grŵp ymgynghori cymunedol fydd yn tarddu o’r rhaglenni Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ac adfywio cymunedol. Mae angen sicrhau y caniateir i bob barn ym mhob cymuned gael ei lleisio, fod trefn agored yn hollbwysig ac na chaiff neb eu gwahardd rhag mynegi’r barnau hynny. Mae angen inni ymgorffori’r siopau un-stop, y canolfannau cynghori a’r canolfannau cynghori ar dai cymunedol, ynghyd â landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig, yn y llinell gyfathrebu ddiffiniedig hon. Os sicrhawn y system hon ar gyfer darparu cyngor ac os gallwn adnabod y bobl hynny sy’n gymwys i gael y gwasanaethau hyn yn haws, byddwn yn cefnogi pobl yng Nghymru yn effeithiol.
I compliment the Minister for working long and hard on developing a Welsh approach to a complex and difficult matter. It is important to support vulnerable people wherever they live, and today’s proposals afford us the opportunity to do that. This is a good example of the Assembly working with local government, with schemes administered locally in the community for the benefit of the elderly, the mentally ill, young people needing support and those with learning disabilities.
Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo’r Gweinidog am weithio’n galed a hir i ddatblygu ffordd Gymreig o edrych ar fater cymhleth ac anodd. Mae’n bwysig cefnogi pobl fregus ble bynnag y maent yn byw, ac mae cynigion heddiw’n rhoi’r cyfle inni wneud hynny. Dyma enghraifft dda o’r Cynulliad yn gweithio gyda llywodraeth leol, drwy gynlluniau a weinyddir yn lleol yn y gymuned er budd yr henoed, y rhai sâl eu meddwl, pobl ifanc sydd angen cefnogaeth a’r rhai ag anawsterau dysgu.
The funding commitment to local authorities and to projects within communities is vital. The Minister has shown that she is prepared to give that commitment. The proposed transitional benefit must take account of the needs of all applicants. We have seen a structured proposed lead into 2006, which is sensitive and will be helpful in dealing with this issue. The guidance on the identification of support costs for local authority rent pools will also be helpful, as will the funding of those costs as part of the transfer. That has been emphasised by the Minister’s concern.
Mae’r ymrwymiad ariannu i awdurdodau lleol ac i brosiectau o fewn cymunedau yn allweddol. Dangosodd y Gweinidog ei bod yn barod i roi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw. Rhaid i’r budd-dal trosiannol arfaethedig ystyried anghenion pob ymgeisydd. Yr ydym wedi gweld y cynigir cyfnod arweiniol strwythuredig i 2006, sydd yn sensitif ac a fydd o gymorth i ddelio â’r mater hwn. Bydd y canllawiau ar nodi costau cymorth i gronfeydd rhent awdurdodau lleol hefyd yn fuddiol, fel y bydd ariannu’r costau hynny fel rhan o’r trosglwyddiad. Pwysleisiwyd hynny gan bryder y Gweinidog.
The support costs issue has been a cause of great concern to many people in sheltered accommodation. I am pleased to see that there has been consultation on support costs, and that several task and finish groups have been advising the Minister. It is important to proceed in that way, because if we are to deal with such a complex subject affecting the lives of people who need help and support, we must have the benefit of the points of view of the whole community. There are no easy answers, as the Minister said. Many vulnerable residents of sheltered accommodation are concerned about future support costs, because from 1 April 2003, they will be ineligible for housing benefit. It is important to safeguard those good people throughout all our communities in Wales. I believe that the Minister is working toward that goal in conjunction with local government, which will have a major responsibility in this.
Bu mater costau cymorth yn achos pryder mawr i lawer o bobl mewn tai gwarchod. Yr wyf yn falch o weld y bu ymgynghori ar gostau cymorth, a bod sawl grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi bod yn cynghori’r Gweinidog. Mae’n bwysig mynd ymlaen fel hynny, oherwydd os ydym am ddelio â phwnc mor gymhleth sy’n effeithio ar fywydau pobl sydd angen cymorth a chefnogaeth, rhaid inni fanteisio ar safbwyntiau’r gymuned gyfan. Nid oes dim atebion hawdd, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog. Mae llawer o drigolion bregus llety gwarchod yn bryderus ynghylch costau cymorth y dyfodol, oherwydd o 1 Ebrill 2003, ni fyddant yn gymwys i gael budd-dal tai. Mae’n bwysig diogelu’r bobl dda hynny drwy’n holl gymunedau yng Nghymru. Credaf fod y Gweinidog yn gweithio tuag at y nod hwnnw ar y cyd â llywodraeth leol, a fydd â chyfrifoldeb mawr yn hyn.
It is vital that we consult and negotiate the long-term funding necessary to provide the support that should be appropriate post-2006 for those in sheltered accommodation. It is important that we get that funding, and, as the Minister is also in charge of finance, there is no-one better to negotiate that for us.
Mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn ymgynghori ac yn negodi’r cyllid tymor hir sy’n angenrheidiol i ddarparu’r cymorth a ddylai fod yn briodol wedi 2006 i rai mewn llety gwarchod. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael yr arian hwnnw, a chan fod y Gweinidog yn gyfrifol am gyllid hefyd, nid oes neb gwell i negodi hynny drosom.
In general, I believe that this is a plan for Wales to be welcomed. It will require much careful work, but I am pleased to support the Minister’s proposal this afternoon.
Yn gyffredinol, credaf fod hwn yn gynllun i Gymru i’w groesawu. Bydd yn galw am lawer o waith gofalus, ond yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi cynnig y Gweinidog y prynhawn yma.
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council. I am aware that the supported people information network of local government officials involved in the programme has recently written to the National Assembly querying the involvement and commitment of National Assembly divisions, other than the Housing Division, in the Supporting People programme. It is also awaiting the publication of a consultation document relating to the registration—or otherwise—of some supported accommodation schemes, notably in learning difficulties.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod y rhwydwaith gwybodaeth o swyddogion llywodraeth leol sy’n ymwneud â’r rhaglen i bobl a gefnogir wedi ysgrifennu’n ddiweddar i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn holi ynghylch cyfranogiad ac ymrwymiad adrannau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ar wahân i’r Adran Dai, yn y rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl. Mae hefyd yn aros am gyhoeddi dogfen ymgynghorol ynghylch cofrestru—neu beidio—rai cynlluniau llety gwarchodol a gefnogir, yn enwedig i’r rhai sydd ag anawsterau dysgu.
The late supply of specific guidance from the National Assembly will affect the implementation, by 2003, of the Supporting People programme. Some local authorities, including my own, have set up multi-agency steering groups, involving members and officials with special responsibilities for housing, health and social services, children’s services, and corporate finance, as Supporting People will affect all aspects of the councils’ work. This illustrates the need for the involvement of those divisions of the National Assembly, that, until now appear not to have been involved.
Bydd cyflwyniad hwyr canllawiau penodol gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn effeithio ar weithrediad, erbyn 2003, y rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol, gan gynnwys f’un i, wedi sefydlu cyrff llywio aml-asiantaeth, yn cynnwys aelodau a swyddogion gyda chyfrifoldebau arbennig dros dai, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a iechyd, gwasanaethau plant, a chyllid corfforaethol, gan y bydd Cefnogi Pobl yn effeithio ar bob agwedd ar waith y cynghorau. Mae hyn yn dangos yr angen am gyfranogiad yr adrannau hynny yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol sydd, hyd yma, yn ymddangos fel pe na baent yn ymwneud â’r peth.
It is clear from the work undertaken to date that the breadth of the Supporting People programme in terms of the agencies and client groups involved, the complexity of the work, and the agenda to maximise transitional housing benefits, has given, and continues to give rise to several issues. The ‘Supporting People in Wales: The Next Steps Towards Implementation’ paper identified the agenda for the National Assembly and local authorities, and when the general desire to maximise the transitional housing benefit moneys is added to this agenda, it becomes a challenging task. Awareness and understanding of the Supporting People programme, and its potential impact on services in the future has been a major issue. The word is beginning to spread, but a great deal of work is still needed to communicate and develop dialogue with key sectors and users.
Mae’n amlwg o’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd hyd yma fod lled y rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl o ran yr asiantaethau a’r grwpiau cleient sy’n ymwneud â hi, cymhlethdod y gwaith, a’r agenda i wneud y gorau o’r budd-dal tai trosiannol, wedi codi ac yn dal i godi nifer o faterion. Nododd y papur ‘Cefnogi Pobl yng Nghymru: y Camau Nesaf Tuag at Weithredu’ yr agenda i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac awdurdodau lleol, a phan ychwanegir yr awydd cyffredinol i wneud y gorau o’r arian budd-dal tai trosiannol at yr agenda yma, daw’n dasg astrus. Bu ymwybyddiaeth a dealltwriaeth o’r rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl, a’i heffaith bosibl ar wasanaethau yn y dyfodol, yn fater pwysig. Mae’r gair yn dechrau mynd ar led, ond mae angen llawer iawn o waith o hyd i gyfathrebu a datblygu deialog gyda sectorau allweddol a defnyddwyr.
My understanding is that the National Assembly proposes that in future Supporting People arrangements, services grants will be paid in full to service providers, rather than to tenants in individual payments. This will remove a level of choice and independence from individuals who are currently responsible for the totality of their rent.
Fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cynnig y bydd trefniadau Cefnogi Pobl yn y dyfodol yn golygu y telir grantiau gwasanaethau yn llawn i ddarparwyr y gwasanaethau, yn hytrach nag i denantiaid mewn taliadau unigol. Bydd hyn yn tynnu lefel o ddewis ac annibyniaeth i ffwrdd oddi wrth unigolion sydd ar hyn o bryd yn gyfrifol am y cyfan o’u rhent.
The Minister will be aware that considerable work remains in informing people about these new arrangements, reviewing services, determining need, and mapping supply. Despite the best efforts of every agency and organisation involved in the strategy development, supporting the full implementation of the programme in April 2003 is an uncertain challenge.
Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod llawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd i hysbysu pobl am y trefniadau newydd hyn, adolygu gwasanaethau, pennu angen, a mapio’r cyflenwad. Er gwaethaf ymdrechion gorau pob asiantaeth a chorff sy’n ymwneud â datblygu’r strategaeth, mae cefnogi gweithrediad llawn y rhaglen yn Ebrill 2003 yn her ansicr.
The Supporting People policy is an important step forward in providing much needed care for some of our most vulnerable people. By integrating funding into a single pot, and allowing local councils to take a strategic overview of how they deliver supported housing for vulnerable people, it offers the potential for more flexibility and more effective service delivery.
Mae’r polisi Cefnogi Pobl yn gam pwysig ymlaen o ran darparu gofal y mae mawr ei angen i rai o’n pobl fwyaf bregus. Trwy integreiddio’r cyllid mewn un pot, a chaniatáu i gynghorau lleol gymryd golwg gyffredinol strategol ar y modd y darparant dai â chymorth i bobl fregus, cynigir y potensial ar gyfer mwy o hyblygrwydd a ffordd fwy effeithiol o gynnig gwasanaethau.
However, we must recognise that there are concerns about the future funding of this scheme. It is essential that the take-up of transitional housing benefit is maximised in the run-up to April 2003, so that no scheme loses out. Equally, we must ensure that room for growth is built into the transfer of resources from the Treasury. It is inevitable that, as local councils develop their local homelessness strategies, there will be increased demand for supported housing.
Serch hynny, rhaid cydnabod fod pryderon ynglŷn â’r cyllid i’r cynllun hwn yn y dyfodol. Mae’n hanfodol sicrhau bod pob budd-dal tai trosiannol posibl yn cael ei gymryd yn y cyfnod cyn Ebrill 2003, fel na fydd unrhyw gynllun yn colli allan. Yn yr un modd, rhaid sicrhau bod lle i dyfu wedi’i gynnwys yn y trosglwyddiad adnoddau o’r Trysorlys. Mae’n anochel, wrth i gynghorau lleol ddatblygu’u strategaethau digartrefedd lleol, y bydd cynnydd yn y galw am dai â chymorth.
There is already a huge demand on councils in terms of the new duties to re-house 16 and 17-year-olds and the move away from bed and breakfast towards purpose-built accommodation for single homeless people. A good example of this is the development of Drws Agored in Swansea. Equally the review of foyers undertaken by my colleague, Peter Black, highlighted the need for local councils to put foyer provision into the context of the local strategy for supported housing. As these strategies are developed in response to the Supporting People agenda, gaps in provision will be identified and will need to be filled.
Mae galw anferth eisoes ar gynghorau yn nhermau’r dyletswyddau newydd i ailgartrefu pobl 16 ac 17 oed a’r symudiad i ffwrdd oddi wrth lety gwely a brecwast tuag at lety pwrpasol i bobl sengl ddigartref. Enghraifft dda o hyn yw datblygiad Drws Agored yn Abertawe. Yn yr un modd, amlygodd yr arolwg o gynteddau gan fy nghyd-aelod, Peter Black, yr angen i gynghorau lleol roi darpariaeth cynteddau i mewn i gyd-destun y strategaeth leol ar gyfer tai â chymorth. Wrth i’r strategaethau hyn gael eu datblygu mewn ymateb i agenda Cefnogi Pobl, nodir bylchau yn y ddarpariaeth a bydd angen eu llenwi.
I applaud the fact that, in terms of vulnerable people and homelessness, the Welsh Assembly Government has not gone down the route of target setting for the sake of it, as has happened in England with rough sleepers. We must remember that the people who will benefit from these schemes are individuals in their own right, and not statistics. If, however, we are not to fail them, we must ensure that, in talking to the UK Government, we get the funding right and that we do so in the long term. I am confident that the Minister has the clout to do that, but would ask that she convey the Assembly’s concerns to the relevant UK Minister when she engages in talks on this issue in future.
Cymeradwyaf y ffaith nad yw Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, o ran pobl fregus a digartrefedd, wedi mynd ati i osod targedau er mwyn gosod targedau, fel a ddigwyddodd yn Lloegr â rhai sy’n cysgu ar y stryd. Rhaid inni gofio fod y bobl a fydd yn elwa ar y cynlluniau hyn yn unigolion, ac nid yn ystadegau. Fodd bynnag, os nad ydym am eu siomi, rhaid inni sicrhau, pan fyddwn yn siarad â Llywodraeth y DU, y cawn y cyllid yn iawn ac y gwnawn hynny dros y tymor hir. Yr wyf yn hyderus fod gan y Gweinidog y grym i wneud hynny, ond hoffwn ofyn iddi gyfleu pryderon y Cynulliad i Weinidog perthnasol y DU pan fydd hi’n trafod y mater hwn â hwy yn y dyfodol.
Young people need support, and I will focus on two issues: foyers and the single room rent restrictions. First, I will discuss foyers—that is, the gateway accommodation for youngsters hoping to move on to independent living but who lack life skills. It is important to ensure that supported accommodation is available throughout Wales, including in rural areas and the Valleys. Individuals with support needs should not have to move away from their local communities to access suitable provision. Perhaps the Minister will comment on the geographic spread of foyer schemes in responding to the debate.
Mae ar bobl ifanc angen cefnogaeth, a chanolbwyntiaf ar ddau fater: cynteddau a’r cyfyngiadau rhentu un ystafell. Yn gyntaf, trafodaf gynteddau—hynny yw, y llety sy’n cynnig porth i bobl ifanc sy’n gobeithio symud ymlaen i fyw’n annibynnol ond sydd yn ddiffygiol o ran sgiliau bywyd. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod llety â chymorth ar gael ledled Cymru, yn cynnwys mewn ardaloedd gwledig a’r Cymoedd. Ni ddylai unigolion sydd ag anghenion cefnogaeth orfod symud i ffwrdd o’u cymunedau lleol i gael darpariaeth addas. Efallai y gwna’r Gweinidog sylw ar wasgariad daearyddol cynlluniau cyntedd wrth ymateb i’r ddadl.
Some foyer schemes have been effective, but there is concern about the problem of accessing funding to meet the costs of the learning and work aspects of the service. The social housing grant and the supported housing revenue grant cannot be used to meet the capital or revenue costs of the training facilities. The revenue costs of learning and work services are currently met from a variety of sources, including European funding and charitable organisations. It is necessary to develop suitable funding streams to meet the costs of the learning and work aspects of foyers. I am sure that the Minister will clarify any developments in this area.
Bu rhai cynlluniau cyntedd yn effeithiol, ond mae pryder ynghylch problem cael arian i dalu costau’r agweddau o’r gwasanaeth sy’n ymwneud â dysgu a gwaith. Ni ellir defnyddio’r grant tai cymdeithasol a’r grant refeniw tai cymorth i dalu costau cyfalaf na refeniw’r cyfleusterau hyfforddi. Telir costau refeniw gwasanaethau addysg a gwaith ar hyn o bryd o amryw o ffynonellau, yn cynnwys arian Ewropeaidd a chyrff elusennol. Mae angen datblygu ffrydiau ariannu addas i dalu costau’r agweddau addysg a gwaith yn y cynteddau. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff y Gweinidog fwrw goleuni ar unrhyw ddatblygiadau yn y maes hwn.
The other funding issue that concerns me greatly is the single room rent restriction, which is the basis of amendment 5. Members will recall that this was mentioned by the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Select Committee in its report on social exclusion in Wales. The problem is that housing benefit claimed by 16 to 25-year-olds is limited to the cost of renting one room in a house, not the cost of renting a whole property. This is not enough money to cover the rent. In addition, there is often a delay in processing housing benefit, which means that many young people, through no fault of their own, are being evicted after finding suitable housing.
Y mater cyllidol arall sy’n fy mhryderu yw’r cyfyngiad rhentu un ystafell, sef sail gwelliant 5. Bydd Aelodau’n cofio y soniwyd am hyn gan Bwyllgor Dethol Tŷ’r Cyffredin ar Faterion Cymreig yn ei adroddiad ar allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Y broblem yw fod budd-dal tai a hawlir gan bobl 16 i 25 oed yn gyfyngedig i gost rhentu un ystafell mewn tŷ, nid cost rhentu eiddo cyfan. Nid yw hyn yn ddigon o arian i dalu’r rhent. Ar ben hynny, yn aml ceir oedi wrth brosesu budd-dal tai, sy’n golygu fod llawer o bobl ifanc, heb ddim bai arnynt hwy, yn cael eu troi allan ar ôl iddynt ddod o hyd i dŷ addas.
We see this restriction as mitigating against supporting people, and it results in a great deal of stress. We proposed a similar amendment during the debate on the national housing strategy last July. The Government voted for that amendment; only the Conservatives voted against it, for reasons best known to themselves. We had hoped that the Government would support this amendment today. The Minister says that it is not relevant to Supporting People, but that is not the reality for those being discriminated against. They say that two can live as cheaply as one, and that is true. It is also true that it costs the same for one to live as two. Paying your overheads can be difficult. Kirsty pointed out to us last year that a cup of tea costs the same if you are 16-years-old or 25-years-old. Not having the support of the UK Government on this despite the third attempt to persuade it is not a reason for not supporting this amendment. Perhaps the Minister will reconsider.
Gwelwn fod y cyfyngiad hwn yn milwrio yn erbyn cefnogi pobl, ac mae’n achosi llawer iawn o straen. Cynigiasom welliant tebyg yn ystod y ddadl ar y strategaeth dai genedlaethol ym mis Gorffennaf diwethaf. Pleidleisiodd y Llywodraeth dros y gwelliant hwnnw; dim ond y Ceidwadwyr a bleidleisiodd yn ei erbyn, am resymau y gwyddent hwy orau beth oeddent. Yr oeddem wedi gobeithio y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r gwelliant hwn heddiw. Dywed y Gweinidog nad yw’n berthnasol i Gefnogi Pobl, ond nid dyna’r gwirionedd i rai y gwahaniaethir yn eu herbyn. Dywedir y gall dau fyw cyn rhated ag un, ac mae hynny’n wir. Mae’n wir hefyd ei bod yn costio’r un faint i un fyw ag i ddau. Gall fod yn anodd talu’ch gorbenion. Dywedodd Kirsty wrthym y llynedd fod cwpanaid o de’n costio’r un peth os ydych chi’n 16 oed neu’n 25 oed. Nid yw’r ffaith nad yw Llywodraeth y DU yn cefnogi hyn er gwaethaf y drydedd ymgais i’w pherswadio yn rheswm dros beidio â chefnogi’r gwelliant hwn. Efallai y gwnaiff y Gweinidog ailystyried.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy ac fel un o ymddiriedolwyr cangen Aberconwy o Gymorth i Ferched.
I declare an interest as a member of Conwy County Borough Council and as a trustee of the Aberconwy branch of Women’s Aid.
O ystyried cefndir y ddadl, mae’n amlwg ac yn ddadlennol bod llawer o fudiadau allweddol yn dibynnu ar yr arian a ddyrennir drwy Cefnogi Pobl er mwyn cynnal eu gwasanaethau a’u gweithgareddau. Y mae’r gweithgareddau hollbwysig hyn yn galluogi aelodau bregus a diymgeledd o’n cymdeithas i ddatblygu’r sgiliau a’r hyder sydd eu hangen arnynt i fyw’n annibynnol heb gefnogaeth yn eu llety eu hunain, neu i gynnal eu hannibyniaeth gyda chefnogaeth barhaus.
Bearing in mind the background to this debate, it is evident and telling that many key organisations depend on the funding distributed through Supporting People to support their services and activities. These vital activites enable vulnerable members of society to develop the skills and confidence required to live independently without support in their own accommodation, or to sustain their independence with continuous support.
Tra’n cydnabod yn ddiffuant yr amcanion a’r gwaith da a wneir gan y mudiadau hyn—nid oes dadl ynghylch pa mor werthfawr ac angenrheidiol yw’r gwasanaethau—mae’n ddyletswydd arnom fel Aelodau o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i sicrhau rhwydd hynt i’w gweithgareddau a’u cynlluniau i’r dyfodol. Gellir gwneud hyn drwy sicrhau ariannu digonol, teg, parhaol a chynaliadwy. Nid ydyw hynny’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r hinsawdd ariannol ansicr presennol yn arwain at grebachu gwasanaethau ac weithiau at ddiswyddiadau. Gall hefyd arwain at amharodrwydd i gynllunio ac ymestyn a lledaenu’r gwasanaeth i helpu aelodau o’n cymunedau, a thanseilir yr hyder i ymgymryd â menter newydd neu i helpu unigolion anghenus o’r newydd. Yn aml, tanseilir brwdfrydedd swyddogion a gwirfoddolwyr gan ansicrwydd neu ddiffyg cynhaliaeth ariannol barhaol. Deillia hynny o’r ffaith y cawsant eu hariannu ar y cychwyn gan y loteri, a arweiniodd, yn ei dro, at farc cwestiwn parhaol ynghylch y dyfodol ac at danseilio hyder.
In accepting the objectives of these organisations and the good work that they do—there is no doubt that these are valuable and necessary services—it is our duty as Members of the National Assembly to ensure that their activities and their plans can be implemented without hindrance in future. This can be done by ensuring adequate, fair, continuous and sustainable funding. This does not occur at present. The current uncertain financial climate leads to a reduction in services and sometimes to job losses. It can also lead to an unwillingness to plan and to extend services in order to assist members of our communities, and the confidence to undertake a new initiative or to help anew those who are in need is undermined. Very often, the enthusiasm of officials and volunteers is undermined by uncertainty or lack of long-term financial security. This is a consequence of the initial funding being provided by the lottery. This has lead to a permanent question mark over the future of these organisations and undermined confidence within them.
Ar ei newydd wedd, bydd Cefnogi Pobl yn cronni nifer o gynlluniau grant y Cynulliad a’r Deyrnas Gyfunol, a chaiff yr arian ei drosglwyddo i awdurdodau lleol. Mawr obeithiaf y bydd unrhyw arbedion ariannol a wneir drwy’r newid hwn yn cael eu cyfeirio at wasanaeth y mudiadau perthnasol, ac y bydd pob ceiniog a drosglwyddir i’r awdurdodau lleol yn cael ei ddefnyddio i’r un perwyl.
In its new format, Supporting People will draw together many of the Assembly’s and the United Kingdom’s grant schemes, and the money will be transferred to local authorities. I very much hope that any financial gains made through this change will be directed towards the relevant organisations, and that every penny given to local authorities will also be used to that end.
Cymeraf yn ganiataol y bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau bod pob mudiad yn derbyn yr un driniaeth, yn cael sylw teg ac na fydd cystadlu diangen, sydd yn aml yn llyffetheirio gwaith da a syniadau da a dychmygus. A wnaiff y Gweinidog sicrhau’r cydweithio effeithlon angenrheidiol rhwng awdurdodau, gan nad yw gweithredu o’r fath bob amser wedi llwyddo yn Lloegr? Bydd yn rhaid blaenoriaethu a rhoi sylw i ffactorau pwysig megis cysylltiadau lleol.
I take it for granted that the Minister will ensure that every organisation is treated equally, is given a fair hearing and that there will not be unnecessary competition, which can often stifle good work and good and innovative ideas. Will the Minister ensure the effective collaboration required between authorities, because such action has not always succeeded in England? We will have to prioritise and pay particular attention to important factors such as local links.
Mawr hyderaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn ystyried y neges yng ngwelliant 3. Datganodd nad yw’n cefnogi’r gwelliant, ond y mae ynddo neges bwysig. O dderbyn y neges honno, gobeithiaf y bydd yn diddymu’r ansicrwydd ariannol blynyddol sydd yn tanseilio hyder a gallu swyddogion i gynllunio’n effeithiol ac effeithlon.
I very much hope that the Minister will take into account the message within amendment 3. She has declared that she does not support the amendment, but its message is important. In accepting that message, I hope that she will ensure that the financial uncertainty experienced from one year to the next becomes a thing of the past, as it can undermine the confidence and ability of officials to plan effectively and efficiently.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 69
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
The tenor of the debate, over and above the important issues of principle relating to Supporting People, has indicated that we are talking about a technical area. The policy’s aim—fundamental to its agenda—is the provision of opportunities for elderly people to live in a home of their choosing in confidence, to treat other people in the same way, and to provide an opportunity for young people leaving care to live in their own flats and to develop skills. To reiterate the policy’s starting point, we first published ‘Supporting People: The Funding Arrangements and Implementation in Wales’ in January 2001. This consultation set out a Welsh framework for Supporting People, which included retention of the funding stream based on the existing supported housing revenue grants to be administered by the Assembly, with funding to support community care schemes and the transfer of sheltered housing to local authorities.
Mae sylwedd y ddadl, uwchlaw ac uwchben y materion pwysig o egwyddor yng nghyswllt Cefnogi Pobl, wedi dangos ein bod yn siarad am faes technegol. Nod y polisi—yn greiddiol i’w agenda—yw darparu cyfleoedd i bobl oedrannus fyw mewn cartref o’u dewis mewn hyder, trin pobl eraill yn yr un modd, a darparu cyfle i bobl ifanc sy’n gadael gofal fyw yn eu fflatiau eu hunain a datblygu sgiliau. I ailadrodd man cychwyn y polisi, cyhoeddwyd ‘Cefnogi Pobl: y Trefniadau Ariannu a Gweithredu yng Nghymru’ yn Ionawr 2001. Yr oedd yr ymgynghoriad hwn yn amlinellu fframwaith Cymreig ar gyfer Cefnogi Pobl, a oedd yn cynnwys cadw’r ffrwd ariannu seiliedig ar y grantiau refeniw presennol i dai cymorth i’w gweinyddu gan y Cynulliad, gyda chyllid i gefnogi cynlluniau gofal yn y gymuned a throsglwyddo tai gwarchod i awdurdodau lleol.
The decision was a reflection of the level of concern about a full transfer at that time to local authorities, which would have included provision for unpopular groups in terms of local government funding. Ex-offenders and those who misuse substances or inflict domestic violence are not necessarily priorities to some local authorities. There has been considerable opposition in the past from some authorities to the provision for these groups. In September, we published ‘Supporting People: The Next Steps Towards Implementation’, in which we set out how to deal with local government guidance issues, along with guidance on, and a commitment to, the target date for the transfer of the Assembly funding stream. This was to be done by April 2006 and a great deal of work has been undertaken in this area.
Yr oedd y penderfyniad yn adlewyrchiad o lefel y pryder ynghylch trosglwyddiad llawn bryd hynny i awdurdodau lleol, a fyddai wedi cynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer grwpiau amhoblogaidd yn nhermau cyllid llywodraeth leol. Nid yw cyn-droseddwyr a rhai sy’n camddefnyddio sylweddau neu’n achosi trais yn y cartref o reidrwydd yn flaenoriaethau i rai awdurdodau lleol. Bu cryn wrthwynebiad yn y gorffennol gan rai awdurdodau i’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer y grwpiau hyn. Ym mis Medi, cyhoeddwyd ‘Cefnogi Pobl: y Camau Nesaf Tuag at Weithredu’, lle y gwnaethom amlinellu sut i ddelio â chanllawiau llywodraeth leol, ynghyd â chanllawiau ac ymrwymiad i’r dyddiad targed ar gyfer trosglwyddo ffrwd ariannu’r Cynulliad. Yr oedd hyn i’w gwblhau erbyn Ebrill 2006 ac mae llawer o waith wedi’i wneud yn y maes hwn.
In December, we published further guidance and a consultation document on the question of support costs currently pooled within local authority rents. Many authorities have a longstanding practice of pooling these costs, principally for warden support in sheltered housing across the whole of their general needs stock. The guidance committed the Assembly to include funding for identified costs in the Supporting People transfer. Therefore, how the funding mechanisms will be put into place is complicated. To answer some of the criticism that the Assembly has not perhaps acted as quickly as we would have wanted it to do in this area, it has been complicated and we wanted to keep all partners on board in developing the agenda. I will keep Members regularly updated via the Local Government and Housing Committee on how these matters are being taken forward.
Yn Rhagfyr, cyhoeddasom ganllawiau pellach a dogfen ymgynghorol ar gwestiwn costau cefnogi sydd wedi’u cronni ar hyn o bryd o fewn rhenti awdurdodau lleol. Mae gan lawer o awdurdodau hen arfer o gronni’r costau hyn, yn bennaf ar gyfer cefnogaeth warden mewn tai gwarchod ar draws y cyfan o’u stoc anghenion cyffredinol. Yr oedd y canllawiau’n rhwymo’r Cynulliad i gynnwys cyllid ar gyfer costau a nodwyd yn y trosglwyddiad dan raglen Cefnogi Pobl. Felly, mae sut y gosodir y peirianweithiau ariannu yn eu lle yn gymhleth. I ateb rhywfaint o’r feirniadaeth nad yw’r Cynulliad efallai wedi gweithredu mor gyflym ag y byddem wedi dymuno iddo’i wneud yn y maes hwn, bu’n gymhleth ac yr oedd arnom eisiau cadw’r holl bartneriaid gyda ni wrth ddatblygu’r agenda. Rhoddaf y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn rheolaidd i Aelodau drwy’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ynglŷn â sut y mae’r materion hyn yn cael eu dwyn ymlaen.
On William’s point on the rights of the individual, which reflects amendment 2, the only reason I will not support the amendment is that this is the responsibility of local authorities and not something that I could impose on them and tell them to undertake. However, the rights of the individual and how they are dealt with are fundamental to the development of this policy.
Ar bwynt William ar hawliau’r unigolyn, sy’n adlewyrchu gwelliant 2, yr unig reswm na wnaf gefnogi’r gwelliant yw mai cyfrifoldeb awdurdodau lleol yw hyn ac nid rhywbeth y gallwn i ei orfodi arnynt a dweud wrthynt am ei wneud. Er hynny, mae hawliau’r unigolyn a’r modd yr ymdrinnir â hwy yn sylfaenol i ddatblygiad y polisi hwn.
Jocelyn talked about foyers, which are a matter of concern. I have asked Peter Black, as Deputy Minister for Local Government, to examine the foyers in detail and to gather some ideas so that we can take various projects forward. I am aware of the importance of developing this policy in a way that would make it applicable to different areas in Wales. Needs in rural areas might be different from those in urban areas. We must consider the size and scale and the funding mechanisms that we would wish to establish to ensure development. Matters are in hand and they will be subject to further discussions in the Local Government and Housing Committee.
Soniodd Jocelyn am gynteddau, sydd yn fater pryder. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i Peter Black, fel Dirprwy Weinidog dros Lywodraeth Leol, edrych yn fanwl ar y cynteddau a chasglu rhai syniadau fel y gallwn fynd ymlaen ag amryfal brosiectau. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd datblygu’r polisi hwn mewn modd a fyddai’n golygu y gellid ei gymhwyso i wahanol ardaloedd yng Nghymru. Gallai anghenion mewn ardaloedd gwledig fod yn wahanol i anghenion mewn ardaloedd trefol. Rhaid ystyried y maint a’r raddfa a’r peirianweithiau ariannu y dymunem eu sefydlu i sicrhau datblygiad. Mae materion mewn llaw a byddant yn destun trafodaethau pellach yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai.
Pauline Jarman raised some points from the point of view of local government, and I am sure that every local government leader would welcome the opportunity to make a point on Supporting People to me in this Chamber. I am aware of local government’s concerns on how this policy will be implemented, but due to the nature of the partnership arrangements between us, we will be able to overcome some of the difficulties.
Cododd Pauline Jarman rai pwyntiau o safbwynt llywodraeth leol, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pob arweinydd llywodraeth leol yn croesawu’r cyfle i wneud pwynt ar Gefnogi Pobl i mi yn y Siambr hon. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o bryderon llywodraeth leol ynglŷn â’r modd y gweithredir y polisi hwn, ond oherwydd natur y cytundebau partneriaeth rhyngom, byddwn yn gallu goresgyn rhai o’r anawsterau.
More general points have been made about how this policy fits in with our other policy directions. We must remember that Supporting People is work in progress. There is a long way to go, but I am confident that progress will be made to deliver the benefits that are outlined in this motion. This policy must be about creating opportunities for people, especially the elderly, young people, people with learning difficulties, and people who may have spent years in an institution and who need to settle in their own home. We should not get bogged down with the detail, but should remember the principles that underline this policy.
Gwnaethpwyd pwyntiau mwy cyffredinol ynghylch sut y mae’r polisi hwn yn cyd-fynd â’n cyfeiriadau polisi eraill. Rhaid inni gofio mai gwaith ar y gweill yw Cefnogi Pobl. Mae ffordd bell i fynd, ond yr wyf yn hyderus y symudwn ymlaen i sicrhau’r manteision a amlinellir yn y cynnig hwn. Rhaid i’r polisi hwn ymwneud â chreu cyfleoedd i bobl, yn enwedig yr henoed, pobl ifanc, pobl ag anawsterau dysgu, a phobl sydd efallai wedi treulio blynyddoedd mewn sefydliad ac sydd angen setlo i lawr yn eu cartref eu hunain. Ni ddylem fynd i gors gyda’r manylion, ond dylem gofio’r egwyddorion sy’n sylfaen i’r polisi hwn.
Gwelliant 1 Janet Ryder t. 71
Amendment 1 Janet Ryder p. 71
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 William Graham t. 72
Amendment 2 William Graham p. 72
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 Janet Ryder t. 73
Amendment 3 Janet Ryder p. 73
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 Janet Ryder t. 73
Amendment 4 Janet Ryder p. 73
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Janet Ryder t. 74
Amendment 5 Janet Ryder p. 74
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 13 YmatalAbstain 7 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (13)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1025 Edwina Hart t. 74
Motion NDM1025 Edwina Hart p. 74
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 36 YmatalAbstain 13 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (36)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (13)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yr Adroddiad ar Iechyd Pobl Ifanc yng Nghymru 1986-2000
The Report on Adolescent Health in Wales 1986-2000
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 76
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendment 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 76
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 76
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76
I am pleased to open today’s debate on adolescent health in Wales. I will focus on two key issues: first, the main findings of a study supported by the World Health Organisation on health behaviour in school-age children and, secondly, the action that is being taken to address the issues raised in that study. Although I am in broad agreement with the issues raised in amendments 1 and 2, I will not support them as they restate existing intentions.
Yr wyf yn falch o agor dadl heddiw ar iechyd pobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Canolbwyntiaf ar ddau fater allweddol: yn gyntaf, prif ganfyddiadau astudiaeth a gefnogwyd gan Fudiad Iechyd y Byd ar ymddygiad iechyd mewn plant oed ysgol, ac yn ail, yr hyn a wneir i fynd i’r afael â’r materion a godir yn yr astudiaeth honno. Er y cytunaf yn fras â’r materion a godir yng ngwelliannau 1 a 2, ni chefnogaf hwynt gan eu bod yn ailddatgan bwriadau sy’n bodoli eisoes.
Wales has played a major role in this expanding international research study since first participating in 1986. I was particularly pleased to be asked to address the researchers working on this study at their annual spring scientific meeting, which Wales hosted in May 2000. The study’s findings have been used extensively to monitor health and health behaviour in Wales. The report to which this motion refers provides us with a picture of the health and wellbeing of young people in Wales from 1986 to 2000. It demonstrates where progress has been made and, importantly, where challenges remain.
Chwaraeodd Cymru ran bwysig yn yr astudiaeth ymchwil ryngwladol ehangol hon ers cyfranogi am y tro cyntaf yn 1986. Pleser arbennig i mi oedd cael fy ngwahodd i annerch yr ymchwilwyr a oedd yn gweithio ar yr astudiaeth hon yn eu cyfarfod gwyddonol gwanwynol blynyddol, a gynhaliwyd yng Nghymru ym Mai 2000. Defnyddiwyd canfyddiadau’r astudiaeth yn helaeth i fonitro iechyd ac ymddygiad iechyd yng Nghymru. Mae’r adroddiad y cyfeiria’r cynnig hwn ato yn rhoi darlun inni o iechyd a lles pobl ifanc yng Nghymru o 1986 hyd 2000. Mae’n dangos ble y bu cynnydd ac, yn bwysig, ble yr erys her o hyd.
We know that boys and younger pupils are more likely to report being very healthy and happy with their lives. Too many young people still report smoking, drinking, and using illicit drugs regularly, although there is welcome evidence of recent improvement. Jonathan, amendment 2 does not acknowledge that evidence of recent change presented in the report. Fewer than half of older girls report eating a daily breakfast and fewer than half of older boys and girls eat fruit everyday. Significant numbers report having been bullied or bullying others in school. Fewer than half of pupils walk to or from school each day. There is a consistent positive association between indicators of socio-economic status, health behaviours and measures of wellbeing. However, the availability of international data from the study clearly illustrates that these issues are also found elsewhere in the United Kingdom, Europe and beyond: they are not unique to Wales.
Gwyddom fod bechgyn a disgyblion iau yn fwy tebygol o adrodd eu bod yn iach iawn ac yn hapus â’u bywydau. Mae gormod o bobl ifanc yn dal i adrodd eu bod yn ysmygu, yfed, a defnyddio cyffuriau anghyfreithlon yn rheolaidd, er bod tystiolaeth sydd i’w chroesawu o welliant diweddar. Jonathan, nid yw gwelliant 2 yn cydnabod y dystiolaeth honno o newid diweddar a gyflwynir yn yr adroddiad. Mae llai na hanner genethod hŷn yn adrodd eu bod yn bwyta brecwast dyddiol ac mae llai na hanner bechgyn a genethod hŷn yn bwyta ffrwyth bob dydd. Dywed niferoedd sylweddol eu bod wedi cael eu bwlio neu wedi bwlio plant eraill yn yr ysgol. Mae llai na hanner disgyblion yn cerdded i’r ysgol neu oddi yno bob dydd. Mae cysylltiad cadarnhaol cyson rhwng dangosyddion statws cymdeithasol-economaidd, ymddygiad iechyd a mesurau lles. Fodd bynnag, mae’r data rhyngwladol sydd ar gael o’r astudiaeth yn dangos yn glir y ceir y materion hyn mewn mannau eraill yn y Deyrnas Unedig, Ewrop a thu hwnt: nid ydynt yn unigryw i Gymru.
The report is particularly valuable in setting out the challenges that we face in Wales. The Welsh Assembly Government’s policies and programmes for tackling these challenges are set out in a range of strategic documents, on health and wellbeing, sexual health and substance misuse. In addition, cross-cutting initiatives such as Communities First, appointing the Children’s Commissioner and the forthcoming national service framework for children provide further strategic direction for our work. Children’s health is also one of the priority areas proposed in the recently published consultation document on health gain targets and inequality indicators.
Mae’r adroddiad yn arbennig o werthfawr o ran amlinellu’r heriau a wynebwn yng Nghymru. Amlinellir polisïau a rhaglenni Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â’r heriau hyn mewn amrediad o ddogfennau strategol, ar iechyd a lles, iechyd rhywiol a chamddefnydd sylweddau. Yn ogystal, mae mentrau trawsbynciol, fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, penodi’r Comisiynydd Plant a’r fframwaith sydd yn yr arfaeth ar gyfer gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i blant, yn darparu cyfeiriad strategol ychwanegol i’n gwaith. Mae iechyd plant hefyd yn un o’r meysydd blaenoriaeth a gynigiwyd yn y ddogfen ymgynghorol a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar ar dargedau gwella iechyd a dangosyddion anghydraddoldeb.
Initiatives are in place to meet the Government’s aims and objectives. Jane Davidson and I have launched the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, which provides the framework for a range of school-based initiatives focusing on issues such as tobacco use, physical activity and nutrition. Pilot smoking cessation schemes have been established for adolescent smokers and a mass media campaign targeting 13 to 15-year-olds has been developed following a recent review of smoking cessation for adolescents. A key aim of the substance misuse strategy is to help children, young people and adults to resist substance misuse to achieve their full potential in society. The Safe Routes to School initiative has been introduced to tackle traffic congestion caused by the school run and to promote healthier lifestyles for children. In terms of sexual health, recent initiatives targeting young people include the development of new guidance on sex education in schools, and public education campaigns to highlight the availability of emergency contraception and to promote safe sex. Children and young people are also a priority for the follow-up to the ‘Better Health, Better Wales’ strategy, which is currently being developed. I want to ensure that all policies and programmes are fully integrated, adding value where necessary. I assure Jocelyn and other colleagues that we will ask officials to progress this by developing an action plan to address the issues raised in the research.
Mae mentrau wedi’u sefydlu i gyflawni nod ac amcanion y Llywodraeth. Mae Jane Davidson a minnau wedi lansio cynllun y rhwydwaith Cymreig o ysgolion iach, sy’n darparu’r fframwaith ar gyfer amrediad o fentrau yn seiliedig yn yr ysgol yn canolbwyntio ar faterion fel defnyddio tybaco, gweithgaredd corfforol a maeth. Sefydlwyd cynlluniau peilot i helpu ysmygwyr ifanc i roi’r gorau iddi a datblygwyd ymgyrch yn y cyfryngau torfol i dargedu plant 13 i 15 oed yn dilyn arolwg diweddar o roi’r gorau i ysmygu yng nghyfnod llencyndod. Nod allweddol y strategaeth ar gamddefnyddio sylweddau yw helpu plant, pobl ifanc ac oedolion i ymwrthod â chamddefnydd sylweddau er mwyn cyflawni’u llawn botensial mewn cymdeithas. Cyflwynwyd y fenter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol i fynd i’r afael â thagfeydd traffig a achosir gan y daith i’r ysgol ac i hybu ffyrdd o fyw iachach i blant. O ran iechyd rhywiol, mae mentrau diweddar a dargedodd bobl ifanc yn cynnwys datblygu canllawiau newydd ar addysg ryw mewn ysgolion, ac ymgyrchoedd addysgu’r cyhoedd er mwyn tynnu sylw at fodolaeth dulliau atal cenhedlu brys ac i hybu rhyw diogel. Mae plant a phobl ifanc yn flaenoriaeth hefyd i olynydd strategaeth ‘Gwell Iechyd, Gwell Cymru’, sydd ar y gweill ar hyn o bryd. Mae arnaf eisiau sicrhau bod pob polisi a rhaglen yn gwbl integredig, gan ychwanegu gwerth lle bo angen. Sicrhaf Jocelyn a chyd-aelodau eraill y byddwn yn gofyn i swyddogion symud hyn yn ei flaen drwy ddatblygu cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â’r materion a godwyd yn yr ymchwil.
I am looking forward to hearing Members’ views on the issues raised by this study. By holding this debate, developing an action plan, and investing in quality research programmes such as this study, we can ensure that policies and programmes to improve the health and wellbeing of young people in Wales are not only developed but are implemented and evaluated in a comprehensive and evidence-based manner.
Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed sylwadau Aelodau ar y materion a godir gan yr astudiaeth hon. Drwy gynnal y ddadl hon, datblygu cynllun gweithredu, a buddsoddi mewn rhaglenni ymchwil safonol fel yr astudiaeth hon, gallwn sicrhau bod polisïau a rhaglenni i wella iechyd a lles pobl ifanc yng Nghymru nid yn unig yn cael eu datblygu ond y cânt eu gweithredu a’u harfarnu mewn modd cynhwysfawr a seiliedig ar dystiolaeth.
Cynigaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Dileu pwynt 3 a rhoi yn ei le:
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Delete point 3 and replace with:
David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 78
David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 78
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir. Mae iechyd ein pobl ifanc yn allweddol, ac yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle i wyntyllu’r pwysigrwydd hwnnw y prynhawn yma. Mae’r adroddiad hwn i’w groesawu. Mae’n ychwanegiad teilwng i’r doreth o wybodaeth sydd eisoes ar gael ar y mater. Fel y dywedodd Jane, dyma wybodaeth am ddefnydd o alcohol, ysmygu, cyffuriau, deiet ac ati, ymysg ein pobl ifanc. Y cwestiwn mawr yw, sut yr ydym am newid pethau, oherwydd mae angen dybryd i weithredu ar y wybodaeth sydd gerbron.
in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner and county councillor. The health of our young people is crucial, and I am pleased to have this opportunity to air that message this afternoon. This report is to be welcomed. It is a worthy addition to the mass of information that is already available on the issue. As Jane said, here is information about the use of alcohol, smoking, drugs, diet and so on, among our young people. The big question is, how we will change things, because there is a dire need to act on the information before us.
Lifestyle is one of the most important health determinants. We have the couch potato teenage generation—including my own children—who are largely glued to either a computer, or to a couch or settee. Obesity is at record levels, and maturity onset diabetes is being diagnosed in teenagers for the first time in Wales. Lack of physical exercise among young people is a real issue, as highlighted by the report, as is poor diet, in terms of junk food, missed breakfast, and the increasing consumption of sweets and drinks containing sugar. The proportions of boys and girls aged 15 to 16 eating fresh fruit every day is lower in 2000 than in 1990. Smoking, drinking, illicit drug use—particularly the latter—is at epidemic levels. All these issues are highlighted in the report. They demand urgent action, which is the reason for our amendment. At present, the Welsh Assembly Government’s budget for health promotion is £4.8 million for 2002-03, out of a total Welsh health budget of £3.7 billion. Therefore, the proportion for health promotion represents 0.13 per cent of the total health budget.
yn Saesneg Ffordd o fyw yw un o’r ffactorau pwysicaf sy’n penderfynu iechyd rhywun. Mae gennym genhedlaeth arddegau’r tatws soffa—gan gynnwys fy mhlant fy hun—sydd yn sownd fwyfwy naill ai wrth gyfrifiadur, neu wrth soffa. Mae mwy o dewdra nag erioed, ac mae clefyd siwgr wrth gyrraedd aeddfedrwydd yn cael ei weld mewn pobl yn eu harddegau am y tro cyntaf yng Nghymru. Mae diffyg ymarfer corff ymhlith pobl ifanc yn broblem wirioneddol, fel a amlygir gan yr adroddiad, ynghyd â deiet wael, o ran bwyd sothach, peidio â bwyta brecwast, a’r cynnydd mewn bwyta melysion ac yfed diodydd sy’n cynnwys siwgr. Mae’r cyfartaledd o fechgyn a genethod 15 i 16 oed sy’n bwyta ffrwyth ffres bob dydd yn is yn 2000 nag yn 1990. Mae ysmygu, yfed, defnyddio cyffuriau anghyfreithlon—yn enwedig yr olaf—ar lefelau epidemig. Amlygir y materion hyn i gyd yn yr adroddiad. Mynnant ein bod yn gweithredu ar fyrder, sef y rheswm dros ein gwelliant. Ar hyn o bryd, mae cyllideb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer hybu iechyd yn £4.8 miliwn am 2002-03, allan o gyfanswm cyllideb iechyd i Gymru o £3.7 biliwn. Felly, mae’r gyfran ar gyfer hybu iechyd yn cynrychioli 0.13 y cant o gyfanswm y gyllideb iechyd.
Urgent action is demanded on smoking in particular. We have all heard the argument—nearly all smokers started smoking as school-age children. Adults hardly ever start smoking as adults. Smoking causes 7,000 deaths in Wales, and 120,000 deaths in the United Kingdom. Tobacco kills 1 in 2 long-term users. The issue is clear: tobacco advertising must be banned. It is targeted at young people to recruit replacements for smokers who have died. Smoking in public places must also be banned. Alcohol and drugs misuse also demand urgent action and resources.
yn Saesneg Rhaid gweithredu ar fyrder ar ysmygu yn arbennig. Yr ydym i gyd wedi clywed y ddadl—mae bron bawb sy’n ysmygu wedi dechrau pan oeddent yn blant ysgol. Prin iawn yw’r oedolion a ddechreuodd ysmygu yn oedolion. Achosa ysmygu 7,000 o farwolaethau yng Nghymru, a 120,000 o farwolaethau yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae tybaco’n lladd un o bob dau ysmygwr tymor hir. Mae’r mater yn glir: rhaid gwahardd hysbysebu tybaco. Caiff ei dargedu at bobl ifanc i recriwtio pobl i gymryd lle ysmygwyr a fu farw. Rhaid gwahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus hefyd. Mae camddefnydd alcohol a chyffuriau hefyd yn galw am weithredu a darparu adnoddau ar fyrder.
Diet, nutrition, exercise, and dental health can all be tackled imaginatively in schools and community settings. They can be tackled imaginatively and aggressively, as well as entertainingly. Studies are afoot, and projects are ongoing in terms of videos—aimed at primary school children in particular—on healthy eating, the choices regarding fruit and vegetables, coupled with rewards and prizes for good performance. They are particularly successful in changing behaviour, because health behaviour is established among young children, and is carried on into adulthood. There are widespread studies that have shown the difference that such work can make to the health behaviour of our young people. The evidence is there. The ready availability of fruit and the non-availability of crisps and biscuits in the home and in the school is also fundamental to the process of learning to live a healthy life. The evidence is there. What is needed is a Government costed plan of action so that all the evidence from this report, and other similar reports and studies, can bring about meaningful change in the health behaviour of our young people and healthy behaviour that is sustained into adulthood.
yn Saesneg Gellir mynd i’r afael â deiet, maeth, ymarfer corff, a iechyd deintiol i gyd mewn modd dychmygus mewn ysgolion ac yn y gymuned. Gellir delio â hwy mewn ffordd ddychmygus ac ymosodol, yn ogystal â difyrru pobl wrth wneud. Mae astudiaethau ar droed, a phrosiectau ar y gweill o ran fideos—wedi’u hanelu at blant ysgolion cynradd yn arbennig—ar fwyta’n iach, y dewisiadau o ran ffrwythau a llysiau, ynghyd â gwobrau am wneud yn dda. Maent yn arbennig o lwyddiannus yn newid ymddygiad, oherwydd sefydlir ymddygiad iechyd ymysg plant ifanc, a’i gario ymlaen i fywyd yr oedolyn. Mae astudiaethau helaeth wedi dangos y gwahaniaeth y gall gwaith o’r fath ei wneud i ymddygiad iechyd ein pobl ifanc. Mae’r dystiolaeth yno. Mae cael ffrwythau ar gael yn hytrach na chreision a bisgedi yn y cartref ac yn yr ysgol hefyd yn sylfaenol i’r broses o ddysgu byw bywyd iach. Mae’r dystiolaeth yno. Yr hyn sydd ei angen yw cynllun gweithredu wedi’i gostio gan y Llywodraeth fel y gall yr holl dystiolaeth o’r adroddiad hwn, ac adroddiadau ac astudiaethau eraill tebyg, achosi newid ystyrlon yn ymddygiad iechyd ein pobl ifanc ac ymddygiad iach a gedwir wrth dyfu i oed.
I propose amendment 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. At the end of the motion add a new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ar ddiwedd y cynnig, ychwanegu pwynt newydd:
This survey of the health status of young people in Wales is interesting. It is particularly valuable because it considers a long period from 1986 to 2000. The Minister focused on the slight improvements in most of the categories that have been achieved over the last four or five years. They should be noted. However, the trends are still worrying when compared to those of most other European countries.
Mae’r arolwg hwn o statws iechyd pobl ifanc yng Nghymru yn ddiddorol. Mae’n arbennig o werthfawr am ei fod yn ystyried cyfnod hir o 1986 hyd 2000. Canolbwyntiodd y Gweinidog ar y gwelliannau bach yn y rhan fwyaf o’r categorïau a gafwyd dros y pedair neu bum mlynedd diwethaf. Dylid eu nodi. Er hynny, mae’r tueddiadau’n dal i fod yn destun pryder pan gymherir â’r rhan fwyaf o wledydd eraill Ewrop.
I will start by focusing on an issue that was not discussed at length in the initial speeches—the issue of wellbeing. It is interesting to ask someone if they feel well. It is a good indicator of underlying health trends and mental health in particular. In Wales, 35 per cent or so of young people say that they do not feel well. That is worrying. A third of our children report that they do not feel particularly healthy and that their state of wellbeing is reduced. That gives us cause for concern because it is considerably higher than the prevailing figure in most European countries. It needs further investigation. What are the causes of this underlying stress and anxiety and what are the implications for people with mental health and anxiety problems? We developed a mental health strategy for children and adolescents recently.
Dechreuaf drwy ganolbwyntio ar fater na thrafodwyd yn faith yn yr areithiau cychwynnol—mater lles. Mae’n ddiddorol gofyn i rywun a ydynt yn teimlo’n dda. Mae’n arwydd da o is-dueddiadau iechyd ac iechyd meddwl yn arbennig. Yng Nghymru, dywed rhyw 35 y cant o bobl ifanc nad ydynt yn teimlo’n dda. Mae hynny’n destun pryder. Mae traean o’n plant yn adrodd nad ydynt yn teimlo’n arbennig o iach ac nad yw eu cyflwr o ran lles ar ei orau. Mae hynny’n rhoi achos inni boeni oherwydd mae’n sylweddol uwch na’r ffigur a geir yn y rhan fwyaf o wledydd Ewrop. Mae angen ymchwiliad pellach iddo. Beth yw achosion y straen a’r boen yma dan yr wyneb a beth yw’r goblygiadau i bobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl a gwewyr? Yr ydym wedi datblygu strategaeth iechyd meddwl ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc yn ddiweddar.
The survey merely confirms some facts. We have known for some time that there was a considerable increase in the number of children smoking in the 1990s. While smoking has dipped among boys, a third of girls smoke. As Dr Lloyd pointed out, most people who become habitual smokers start to smoke in school. It is a significant trend that must be tackled. Similarly, illicit drug use and alcohol consumption has increased. One stark fact that has come out of this study is that the reported use of illicit drugs doubled in the 1990s. That must relate to some of the wellbeing and mental health concerns.
Dim ond cadarnhau rhai ffeithiau a wna’r arolwg. Gwyddom ers tro y bu cynnydd sylweddol yn y nifer o blant sy’n ysmygu yn y 1990au. Tra bod ysmygu wedi gostwng ymhlith bechgyn, mae traean o enethod yn ysmygu. Fel y nododd Dr Lloyd, mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl sy’n mynd yn ysmygwyr o ran arferiad wedi dechrau ysmygu yn yr ysgol. Mae’n duedd arwyddocaol y mae’n rhaid mynd i’r afael â hi. Yn yr un modd, mae defnydd cyffuriau anghyfreithlon ac alcohol wedi cynyddu. Un ffaith drawiadol a ddaeth allan o’r astudiaeth hon yw fod adroddiadau am ddefnyddio cyffuriau anghyfreithlon wedi dyblu yn y 1990au. Rhaid bod a wnelo hynny â rhai o’r pryderon lles a iechyd meddwl.
Turning to nutrition, I have studied the statistics for 16-year-olds. Given that the data presented is for males and females, I am guessing at the figures, but the report notes the daily consumption of sugary drinks at 55 per cent for that age group. Twenty per cent eat chips every day and 45 per cent eat fresh fruit everyday. Those figures indicate that we have a great deal of work to do to encourage young people to have a good, nutritious, balanced diet.
A throi at faeth, yr wyf wedi astudio’r ystadegau ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 oed. Gan mai data ar gyfer gwrywod a benywod a roddir, yr wyf yn dyfalu am y ffigurau, ond noda’r adroddiad fod cyfradd yfed diodydd siwgraidd yn ddyddiol yn 55 y cant i’r grŵp oedran hwnnw. Mae 20 y cant yn bwyta sglodion bob dydd a 45 y cant yn bwyta ffrwythau ffres bob dydd. Mae’r ffigurau hynny’n dangos fod gennym lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud i annog pobl ifanc i gael deiet dda, maethlon, cytbwys.
We must ensure that the National Assembly equips young people to lead healthier lives.
Rhaid sicrhau bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn arfogi pobl ifanc i fyw bywydau iachach.
Dr Lloyd is right to say that initiatives such as increasing spending on health prevention and health promotion is important for this age group and for its future health outcomes, yet we spend relatively little on this aspect of health. I know that we are moving to a more primary focused health service and health promotion would fit neatly into a primary community-based health service. However, it is an issue that needs more attention and more resources. Whenever I see a study such as this and read the data, I am aware that we are analysing people in a cold and technical way. We now need to engage with some of these young people and ask them what they need in order to look at their lifestyles and perhaps change some of the habits that they have already started to develop. For example, what are the barriers to a healthier lifestyle; what peer group pressures exist, and how are messages effectively communicated to young people? Regrettably, if someone were to play them a tape of my speech, I dare say that I would not be converting too many young people to the cause of healthier living. I hope that that would be the case, but we should consider using role models such as successful sportsmen and sportswomen, for example. We need to develop the skills, and we do not have all of them here. That is important.
Mae Dr Lloyd yn gywir pan ddywed fod mentrau fel cynyddu gwariant ar atal afiechyd a hybu iechyd yn bwysig i’r grŵp oedran hwn ac i’w iechyd yn y dyfodol, ond eto ychydig iawn a wariwn ar yr agwedd hon ar iechyd. Gwn ein bod yn symud tuag at wasanaeth iechyd sy’n canolbwyntio mwy ar y sylfaenol ac y byddai hybu iechyd yn ffitio’n dwt i wasanaeth iechyd sylfaenol yn y gymuned. Fodd bynnag, mae’n fater sy’n galw am fwy o sylw a mwy o adnoddau. Pryd bynnag y gwelaf astudiaeth fel hon a darllen y data, yr wyf yn ymwybodol ein bod yn dadansoddi pobl mewn ffordd oer a thechnegol. Yn awr mae angen inni gyfathrebu â rhai o’r bobl ifanc hyn a gofyn iddynt beth sydd ei angen arnynt er mwyn edrych ar eu ffordd o fyw ac efallai newid rhai o’r arferion y maent eisoes wedi dechrau eu datblygu. Er enghraifft, beth yw’r rhwystrau i fyw mewn ffordd iachach; pa bwysau sydd gan grwpiau cyfoedion, a sut mae cyfathrebu negeseuon yn effeithiol i bobl ifanc? Ysywaeth, pe bai rhywun yn chwarae tâp o f’araith i iddynt, mentraf ddweud na fyddwn yn ennill gormod o bobl ifanc drosodd i achos byw’n iachach. Gobeithiaf mai dyna a ddigwyddai, ond dylem ystyried defnyddio modelau rôl fel pobl lwyddiannus ym myd chwaraeon, er enghraifft. Mae angen inni ddatblygu’r sgiliau, ac nid ydynt i gyd gennym yn y fan yma. Mae hynny’n bwysig.
The issue of sexual health is omitted from this survey, which is a deficiency. I am not sure why that methodology was followed—
Nid yw cwestiwn iechyd rhywiol wedi’i gynnwys yn yr arolwg hwn, sy’n ddiffyg. Nid wyf yn siŵr pam y dilynwyd y fethodoleg honno—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 82
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
You need to wind up now, David.
Mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr, David.
That is another area that must be addressed in a comprehensive strategy to promote good health and wellbeing among young people.
Dyna faes arall y mae angen rhoi sylw iddo mewn strategaeth gynhwysfawr i hybu iechyd da a lles ymysg pobl ifanc.
I welcome this report, as it supports what I see regularly in my constituency. I will make two points, beginning with a comment on alcohol and illicit drug abuse. Recent work with a local youth facility in my constituency has shown that there is a greater prevalence of alcohol abuse among younger children in Cynon Valley than in other less deprived areas. When we refer to alcohol, we also need to examine the double standards that we, as adults, sometimes have regarding alcohol. It is a dangerous substance.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn, gan ei fod yn cefnogi’r hyn a welaf yn rheolaidd yn fy etholaeth. Yr wyf am wneud dau bwynt, gan ddechrau gyda sylw ar gamddefnyddio alcohol a chyffuriau anghyfreithlon. Dangosodd gwaith diweddar gyda chyfleuster i bobl ifanc yn fy etholaeth fod mwy o gamddefnydd alcohol ymhlith plant iau yng Nghwm Cynon nag mewn ardaloedd eraill llai difreintiedig. Pan gyfeiriwn at alcohol, mae angen inni edrych hefyd ar y safonau dwbl sydd gennym ni, fel oedolion, ynglŷn ag alcohol weithiau. Mae’n sylwedd peryglus.
I will also comment on illicit drug use. Some of you will be aware that this issue has hit the headlines recently in the Valleys. It has been said that drug-related deaths in Rhondda Cynon Taff are occurring at an average of more than one a week—a higher rate than in many UK inner city areas. I pay tribute to the police’s response to these problems in the Cynon Valley. They have prioritised drug issues and have recently undertaken a successful programme of arresting heroin dealers and users. We know from the recent report that the key drug dealers in the Cynon Valley are being dealt with. However, the danger will not be eliminated until the causes—namely social exclusion, poverty and deprivation—have been tackled. We must consider enforcement but we must also consider ways of making our young people less vulnerable, by increasing employability, motivation and self-esteem. Therefore, we are considering a much more holistic approach, encompassing many of our policy areas. I welcome Jane Hutt’s remarks about working with Jane Davidson, the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, but we must also work with other policy areas.
Gwnaf sylw hefyd ar ddefnydd cyffuriau anghyfreithlon. Bydd rhai ohonoch yn ymwybodol i’r pwnc hwn fod yn y penawdau yn ddiweddar yn y Cymoedd. Dywedwyd fod marwolaethau cysylltiedig â chyffuriau’n digwydd yn Rhondda Cynon Taf ar gyfartaledd o fwy nag un yr wythnos—sef cyfradd uwch na llawer o ddinasoedd mawr y DU. Talaf deyrnged i ymateb yr heddlu i’r problemau hyn yng Nghwm Cynon. Maent wedi rhoi blaenoriaeth i faterion cyffuriau ac wedi cynnal rhaglen lwyddiannus yn ddiweddar o arestio gwerthwyr a defnyddwyr heroin. Gwyddom o’r adroddiad diweddar fod yr heddlu’n delio gyda’r gwerthwyr cyffuriau allweddol yng Nghwm Cynon. Serch hynny, ni chaiff y perygl ei ddileu hyd nes byddir wedi mynd i’r afael â’r achosion—sef allgáu cymdeithasol, tlodi ac amddifadedd. Rhaid inni ystyried gorfodaeth ond rhaid inni hefyd ystyried ffyrdd o wneud ein pobl ifanc yn llai bregus, drwy gynyddu eu siawns o gael gwaith, eu symbyliad a’u hunan-barch. Felly, yr ydym yn ystyried dull llawer mwy holistaidd, gan gynnwys llawer o’n meysydd polisi. Croesawaf sylwadau Jane Hutt ynghylch gweithio gyda Jane Davidson, y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, ond mae’n rhaid inni weithio gyda meysydd polisi eraill hefyd.
I pay tribute to the organisations working to address these issues, and engaging with young people in my constituency. The Fernhill Youth Project, the Chequers Youth Facility and the Hirwaun YMCA, for example, have received support from Objective 1 and other Assembly funds and they are working with young people, steering them away from drugs and alcohol and encouraging a healthy lifestyle for a healthy future.
Talaf deyrnged i’r cyrff sy’n gweithio ar y materion hyn, ac yn ymwneud â phobl ifanc yn fy etholaeth. Mae Prosiect Ieuenctid Fernhill, Cyfleuster Ieuenctid Chequers ac YMCA Hirwaun, er enghraifft, wedi cael cefnogaeth gan Amcan 1 a chronfeydd eraill o eiddo’r Cynulliad ac maent yn gweithio gyda phobl ifanc, yn eu tywys oddi wrth gyffuriau ac alcohol ac yn annog byw’n iach er mwyn dyfodol iach.
Finally, I will make a few points about physical activity rates. I noted that there is a disparity between girls and boys in terms of the take-up of physical activity. That is a worrying trend because it sets the pattern for later life. The Assembly must take this issue seriously if it wants to ensure healthy futures for both men and women. I welcome the work of the Sports Council for Wales in encouraging greater participation in sport among girls. However, we must ensure that statistics are broken down by gender, because we need to see where the funding is going.
Yn olaf, gwnaf ychydig bwyntiau ynglŷn â chyfraddau gweithgaredd corfforol. Nodais fod gwahaniaeth rhwng genethod a bechgyn o ran ymgymryd â gweithgaredd corfforol. Mae hynny’n duedd sy’n peri pryder oherwydd mae’n gosod y patrwm ar gyfer gweddill bywyd. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad ystyried y mater hwn o ddifrif os am sicrhau dyfodol iach i ddynion a menywod fel ei gilydd. Croesawaf waith Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru yn annog mwy o gyfranogiad mewn chwaraeon ymhlith genethod. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff ystadegau eu dadansoddi yn ôl rhyw, oherwydd mae arnom angen gweld ble mae’r arian yn mynd.
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on an important study that gives a valuable insight into young people’s health and health behaviour. The report acknowledges that childhood and adolescence are particularly important times of life in health terms. Patterns of behaviour which begin at this time may become well established and difficult to change. When I read this report, I greatly lamented the first chocolate bar that my mother must have bought for me and wondered how different things could have been if it had been an apple instead.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i siarad ar astudiaeth bwysig sy’n rhoi mewnwelediad gwerthfawr i iechyd pobl ifanc a’u hymddygiad o ran eu hiechyd. Mae’r adroddiad yn cydnabod fod plentyndod a llencyndod yn adegau arbennig o bwysig mewn bywyd o safbwynt iechyd. Gall patrymau ymddygiad sy’n dechrau bryd yma ymsefydlu’n dda a mynd yn anodd eu newid. Pan ddarllenais yr adroddiad hwn, gresynais yn fawr am y bar siocled cyntaf a brynodd fy mam, mae’n siŵr, i mi, a meddwl tybed pa mor wahanol fuasai pethau pe bai hi wedi rhoi afal imi yn ei le.
If we are to prevent behavioural trends that lead to health problems it is obvious that we need to know what those trends and behaviours are. This study is important because it highlights trends and snapshots of the current situation. David is right in saying that one aspect of health behaviour that is missing from this study is sexual health, which is an oversight. However, this was an international study and the core indicators were set at the beginning when the climate was not ready, perhaps, for such a line of inquiry. I am pleased to inform my colleague, Mr Melding, that the health promotion unit has stated that there will be a limited number of questions on sexual health in the 2002 survey because it feels that people will be willing to respond to questions of this nature. That is particularly important here in Wales given our persistently high rate of teenage pregnancies and the alarming increases in the rates of sexually transmitted diseases throughout the country.
Os ydym am atal tueddiadau ymddygiad sy’n arwain at broblemau iechyd mae’n amlwg fod angen inni wybod beth yw’r tueddiadau a’r ymddygiadau hynny. Mae’r astudiaeth hon yn bwysig gan ei bod yn amlygu tueddiadau a darluniau ennyd o’r sefyllfa fel y mae. Mae David yn iawn pan ddywed fod iechyd rhywiol yn un agwedd o ymddygiad iechyd sydd heb ei gynnwys yn yr astudiaeth, ac mae hynny’n amryfusedd. Er hynny, yr oedd hon yn astudiaeth ryngwladol a gosodwyd y dangosyddion craidd ar y dechrau pan nad oedd yr hinsawdd yn barod, efallai, am linell ymholiad o’r fath. Mae’n dda gennyf hysbysu fy nghyd-Aelod, Mr Melding, fod yr uned hybu iechyd wedi dweud y bydd nifer gyfyngedig o gwestiynau ar iechyd rhywiol yn arolwg 2002 oherwydd ei bod yn teimlo y bydd pobl yn fodlon ymateb i gwestiynau o’r natur hwn. Mae hynny’n arbennig o bwysig yma yng Nghymru yn wyneb ein cyfradd uchel yn gyson o feichiogrwydd mewn genethod yn eu harddegau a’r cynnydd dychrynllyd yng nghyfraddau clefydau a drosglwyddir yn rhywiol ledled y wlad.
There is much hype about teenage drinking and smoking. It is good to note that the prevalence of weekly smoking has stabilised and fallen in the case of older boys. However, much must be done to prevent children and adolescents from smoking in the first place by focusing on those young people who already aspire to smoke. We have the opportunity to alter their behaviour now.
Mae llawer o sylw’n cael ei roi i yfed ac ysmygu ymhlith rhai yn eu harddegau. Mae’n dda nodi fod amlder ysmygu wythnosol wedi sefydlogi ac wedi gostwng yn achos bechgyn hŷn. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer i’w wneud i atal plant a phobl ifanc rhag ysmygu yn y lle cyntaf, drwy ganolbwyntio ar y bobl ifanc hynny sydd eisoes eisiau ysmygu. Mae gennym y cyfle i newid eu hymddygiad yn awr.
We like to top charts in Wales, but we will not be particularly proud of topping the chart on drunkenness among teenagers and on young people who are most likely to drink regularly. Unfortunately, it is a well-established pattern that mirrors adult behaviour in Wales. We need to consider altering adult behaviour as a determinant of young people’s behaviour. If they witness a great deal of drinking in their family, they are more likely to take up the habit themselves.
Yr ydym yn hoffi cyrraedd brig tablau yng Nghymru, ond ni fyddwn yn arbennig o falch o fod ar frig siart meddwdod ymhlith pobl ifanc a siart y bobl ifanc sydd fwyaf tebygol o yfed yn rheolaidd. Yn anffodus, mae’n batrwm sydd wedi hen ymsefydlu sy’n adlewyrchu ymddygiad oedolion yng Nghymru. Mae angen inni ystyried newid ymddygiad oedolion fel ffactor sy’n penderfynu ymddygiad pobl ifanc. Os ydynt yn dystion i lawer iawn o yfed yn eu teulu, maent yn fwy tebygol o fagu’r arfer eu hunain.
The information on illicit drug use today has caused a great furore in the media, but we must be cautious, given that these figures were finalised in 1998 and we are some time down the line from that. We need to consider the next report to see whether the use of illicit drugs will continue.
Mae’r wybodaeth ar ddefnyddio cyffuriau anghyfreithlon heddiw wedi achosi stŵr mawr yn y cyfryngau, ond rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus, o gofio y casglwyd y ffigurau hyn yn 1998 a’n bod wedi symud ymlaen gryn dipyn ers hynny. Mae angen inni ystyried yr adroddiad nesaf i weld a fydd defnydd cyffuriau anghyfreithlon yn parhau.
The Minister mentioned drafting an action plan to tackle some of these problems. I concur with David Melding that involving young people in deciding the appropriate way of communicating health and lifestyle messages to them is key in terms of taking that forward. I am aware of the Powys youth forum’s work on the personal and social education curriculum, which students in Powys high schools found to be, on the whole, inadequate in terms of giving them clear-cut information that they needed to make choices about their lifestyle.
Soniodd y Gweinidog am ddrafftio cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r problemau hyn. Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â David Melding ei bod yn allweddol cynnwys pobl ifanc yn y broses o benderfynu ar y ffordd briodol o gyfleu negeseuon iddynt ynghylch iechyd a ffordd o fyw, o ran mynd â hynny yn ei flaen. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o waith fforwm ieuenctid Powys ar y cwricwlwm addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol, y canfu disgyblion yn ysgolion uwchradd Powys ei fod, ar y cyfan, yn annigonol o ran rhoi gwybodaeth glir iddynt i’w helpu i wneud dewisiadau ynghylch eu ffordd o fyw.
A youth parliament was held in the Chamber a few weeks ago. One of the debates focused on more provision of health education. The young people there indicated that the last thing that they wanted was to be lectured by teachers and do-gooders on what they should and should not be doing. They suggested that young people were a resource that should be used for delivering messages about all aspects of health promotion. They came up with a simple framework about the right message—a simple one that was age-specific and not patronising, delivered by the right people. They recognised that teachers and parents were not the only source of information and that we needed to involve the youth service and young people, who have an important role in communicating messages to their peers. I commend Llandrindod Wells high school’s excellent work on this.
Cynhaliwyd senedd ieuenctid yn y Siambr ychydig wythnosau yn ôl. Canolbwyntiodd un o’r dadleuon ar fwy o ddarpariaeth addysg iechyd. Dywedodd y bobl ifanc oedd yno mai’r peth olaf yr oedd arnynt ei eisiau oedd cael pregeth gan athrawon a phobl ddaionus ynghylch beth y dylent ac na ddylent ei wneud. Awgrymwyd ganddynt fod pobl ifanc yn adnoddau y dylid eu defnyddio i gyflwyno negeseuon ynghylch pob agwedd ar hybu iechyd. Cynigiwyd fframwaith syml ynghylch y neges iawn ganddynt—neges syml, penodol i’r oedran a heb fod yn nawddoglyd, wedi’i chyflwyno gan y bobl iawn. Cydnabyddid ganddynt nad athrawon a rhieni oedd unig ffynhonnell gwybodaeth a bod angen cynnwys y gwasanaeth ieuenctid a phobl ifanc, sydd â rôl bwysig o ran trosglwyddo negeseuon i’w cyfoedion. Cymeradwyaf waith ardderchog ysgol uwchradd Llandrindod ar hyn.
However, it is also a matter of delivering those messages in the right places. School has its part to play and I welcome yesterday’s launch of the Go To scheme in Newtown by my colleague Mick Bates. The scheme promotes healthy eating bars in secondary schools. I am sure that the launches in Bridgend and other parts of Wales will be equally welcome. However, it is not just a matter of targeting schools, but of getting out to places where young people go and feel comfortable about discussing these issues with people who have the information that they want to hear. If we are to put the information in the survey to best use, I urge the Cabinet sub-committee on children and young people to take into account the views that were expressed by young people in the Chamber.
Fodd bynnag, mae’n fater hefyd o gyflwyno’r negeseuon hynny yn y lleoedd iawn. Mae gan ysgol ei rhan i’w chwarae, a chroesawaf lansio’r cynllun Go To yn y Drenewydd ddoe gan fy nghyd-Aelod Mick Bates. Mae’r cynllun yn hyrwyddo bariau bwyd iach mewn ysgolion uwchradd. Yr wyf yn siŵr y ceir yr un croeso i’r cynllun ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr a rhannau eraill o Gymru. Er hynny, nid mater o dargedu ysgolion yn unig ydyw, ond o fynd allan i leoedd lle bydd pobl ifanc yn mynd a lle byddant yn teimlo’n gyfforddus ynghylch trafod y materion hyn gyda phobl a chanddynt y wybodaeth y maent am ei chlywed. Os ydym am wneud y defnydd gorau o’r wybodaeth yn yr arolwg, anogaf is-bwyllgor y Cabinet ar blant a phobl ifanc i gymryd i ystyriaeth y sylwadau a fynegwyd gan bobl ifanc yn y Siambr.
This report offers us a degree of insight into the health and lifestyle of young people in Wales. I am pleased that the report contains a section on the correlation between socio-economic status and adolescent health. However, I was extremely disappointed to discover that that section is only two paragraphs long. We have spent much time in the Assembly discussing how socio-economic status, class background and living conditions are closely related to health and wellbeing. We took action recently to redistribute more of our health budget to those deprived areas of Wales in most need. This report states that young people from wealthier families engage in more health-enhancing activities. However, it is a great shame that the data presented throughout the report is not collated and presented in a way that acknowledges the centrality of class and socio-economic status to the health of people in Wales. For example, it is interesting to note how many 11 to 16-year-olds eat regular and healthy meals. I would be far more interested to know the differences between Caerau and Cyncoed, or Penrhys and Penarth.
Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn cynnig rhyw radd o oleuni inni ar iechyd a ffordd-o-fyw pobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn falch fod yr adroddiad yn cynnwys adran ar y berthynas rhwng statws cymdeithasol-economaidd a iechyd pobl ifanc. Fodd bynnag, yr oeddwn yn hynod o siomedig i weld mai dim ond dau baragraff o hyd yw’r adran honno. Yr ydym wedi treulio llawer o amser yn y Cynulliad yn trafod sut mae statws cymdeithasol-economaidd, cefndir dosbarth ac amodau byw yn berthnasol i iechyd a lles. Bu inni weithredu yn ddiweddar i ailddosbarthu mwy o’n cyllideb iechyd i’r ardaloedd difreintiedig hynny yng Nghymru lle mae’r angen mwyaf. Dywed yr adroddiad hwn fod pobl ifanc o deuluoedd cyfoethocach yn cymryd rhan mewn mwy o weithgareddau sy’n dda i’r iechyd. Serch hynny, mae’n resyn mawr na chafodd y data a gyflwynir drwy’r adroddiad eu casglu a’u cyflwyno mewn modd sy’n cydnabod mor ganolog yw dosbarth a statws cymdeithasol-economaidd i iechyd pobl yng Nghymru. Er enghraifft, mae’n ddiddorol nodi faint o blant 11 i 16 oed sy’n bwyta prydau bwyd rheolaidd a iach. Byddai gennyf fi lawer mwy o ddiddordeb mewn gwybod y gwahaniaethau rhwng Caerau a Chyncoed, neu Benrhys a Phenarth.
Similarly, on issues such as alcohol consumption, drug taking, and the amount of time spent in front of a television or computer, it would be far more valuable and meaningful to discuss the difference between children from privileged and deprived backgrounds rather than the difference between 12 and 13-year-old girls or 14 and 15-year-old boys.
Yn yr un modd, ar faterion fel yfed alcohol, cymryd cyffuriau, a’r amser a dreulir o flaen set deledu neu gyfrifiadur, byddai’n llawer mwy gwerthfawr ac ystyrlon trafod y gwahaniaeth rhwng plant o gefndiroedd breintiedig a difreintiedig yn hytrach na’r gwahaniaeth rhwng genethod 12 a 13 oed neu fechgyn 14 a 15 oed.
I am pleased that the report acknowledges the need to consider young people’s health in the broadest sense, but there is a significant void in the presentation of how socio-economic background can enhance or limit the health and wellbeing of our young people. I hope that the Assembly Government will consider these issues in more depth when deciding how best to take this agenda forward.
Yr wyf yn falch fod yr adroddiad yn cydnabod yr angen i ystyried iechyd pobl ifanc yn yr ystyr ehangaf, ond mae gwactod arwyddocaol yn y modd y cyflwynir sut y gall cefndir cymdeithasol-economaidd effeithio ar iechyd a lles ein pobl ifanc er gwell neu er gwaeth. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ystyried y materion hyn mewn mwy o ddyfnder wrth benderfynu sut orau i fynd â’r agenda hon yn ei blaen.
Any action taken by the Government must involve a cross-cutting and multi-agency approach, targeted in particular at deprived communities. The Noddfa healthy eating project in Caerau in my constituency is an example of a project that has already received Assembly money under the community food initiative. This is warmly welcomed.
Rhaid i unrhyw weithredu gan y Llywodraeth gynnwys ymagwedd trawbynciol ac amlasiantaethol, gan dargedu cymunedau difreintiedig yn arbennig. Mae prosiect bwyta’n iach Noddfa yng Nghaerau yn fy etholaeth yn enghraifft o brosiect sydd eisoes wedi derbyn arian gan y Cynulliad dan y fenter bwyd cymunedol. Croesewir hyn yn fawr.
To truly tackle the challenges of adolescent wellbeing, the Assembly Government must take action that reaches out beyond the field of health, to encompass education, the environment, housing, culture and sport.
Er mwyn mynd i’r afael go iawn â her sicrhau lles pobl ifanc, rhaid i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad weithredu mewn modd sy’n ymestyn allan y tu hwnt i faes iechyd, i gynnwys addysg, yr amgylchedd, tai, diwylliant a chwaraeon.
Like previous speakers, I welcome this report. It is a valuable benchmarking exercise which shows how Wales is doing in terms of this critical age group in comparison to other countries. I will concentrate on sexual health issues among this age group which, sadly, are not covered in this report. I hope that the action plan that will be produced to address the findings of this report can also tie into the strategic framework for promoting sexual health that was outlined in ‘Promoting Health and Wellbeing’.
Fel siaradwyr blaenorol, croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn. Mae’n ymarfer meincnodi gwerthfawr sy’n dangos ym mhle y mae Cymru arni o safbwynt y grŵp oedran allweddol hwn o gymharu â gwledydd eraill. Yr wyf fi am ganolbwyntio ar faterion iechyd rhywiol ymhlith y grŵp oedran hwn sydd, ysywaeth, heb eu cynnwys yn yr adroddiad hwn. Gobeithio y bydd y cynllun gweithredu a gynhyrchir i fynd i’r afael â chanfyddiadau’r adroddiad hwn yn gallu clymu i mewn hefyd i’r fframwaith strategol ar gyfer hybu iechyd rhywiol a amlinellwyd yn ‘Hybu Iechyd a Lles’.
Sex education has a critical role to play in any agenda for promoting healthy behaviour among young people. It is not just about the ongoing fight to prevent the spread of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. It is a matter of addressing the concerns about maintaining the momentum, as there are signs that the changes in sexual behaviour seen in the late 1980s and 1990s may be beginning to unwind as today’s younger generation perceives the dangers to be less than previously.
Mae gan addysg ryw rôl allweddol i’w chwarae mewn unrhyw agenda i hybu ymddygiad iach ymhlith pobl ifanc. Nid y frwydr barhaus i atal lledaeniad HIV a chlefydau rhywiol eraill yw’r unig bwnc dan sylw. Mae’n fater o ddelio â’r pryderon ynghylch cynnal y momentwm, gan fod arwyddion y gall y newidiadau mewn ymddygiad rhywiol a welwyd yn niwedd y 1980au a’r 1990au fod yn dechrau datod wrth i’r to iau heddiw weld y peryglon yn llai nag a welid gynt.
We need to tackle the issue of teenage pregnancy in Wales. Although it is not addressed in this report, the incidence of teenage pregnancy is described as a matter of increasing concern both in the Acheson report and in the recent UNICEF publication, ‘The State of the World’s Children 2002’. The latest statistics reveal that Wales has a higher rate of teenage pregnancy than England. Abortion rates in the 16 to 19-year-old age group and among girls aged 15 or younger are also higher in Wales.
Mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â mater beichiogrwydd ymhlith rhai yn eu harddegau yng Nghymru. Er nad yw’r adroddiad hwn yn ei drafod, disgrifir beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau fel mater o bryder cynyddol yn adroddiad Acheson ac yng nghyhoeddiad diweddar UNICEF, ‘The State of the World’s Children 2002’. Dengys yr ystadegau diweddaraf fod gan Gymru gyfradd uwch o feichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau na Lloegr. Mae cyfraddau erthylu yn y grŵp 16 i 19 oed ac ymhlith genethod 15 oed neu iau yn uwch yng Nghymru hefyd.
It is a shame that this report does not measure sexual health, because the Office of National Statistics figures only reflect the incidence of live births to girls aged 15 or over, and not to those aged 14 or even younger. I hope that future reports will contain this data. I will quote from a report commissioned in Denbighshire on the effect of low birth weight babies. Teenage pregnancies are mentioned as a concern in this report. In the report, a midwife is quoted as saying:
Mae’n drueni nad yw’r adroddiad hwn yn mesur iechyd rhywiol, oherwydd nid yw ffigurau’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Genedlaethol ond yn cyfeirio at niferoedd genedigaethau byw i enethod 15 oed a throsodd, ac nid at rai 14 oed neu iau fyth. Gobeithiaf y bydd adroddiadau yn y dyfodol yn cynnwys y data hyn. Dyfynnaf o adroddiad a gomisiynwyd yn Sir Ddinbych ar effaith babanod sy’n ysgafn pan gânt eu geni. Sonnir am feichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau fel pryder yn yr adroddiad hwn. Yn yr adroddiad, dyfynnir bydwraig yn dweud:
‘I see a lot of teenage pregnancies; about 30 per cent of my caseload. Four years ago, I might have had two at any one time. That has now increased to about eight 14, 15 or 16-year-olds.’
‘Gwelaf lawer o enethod beichiog yn eu harddegau; tua 30 y cant o’m gwaith. Bedair blynedd yn ôl, efallai y buasai gennyf ddwy ar unrhyw un adeg. Mae hynny bellach wedi codi i ryw wyth o enethod 14, 15 neu 16 oed.’
A local community paediatrician goes on to say that teenage pregnancies in the Rhyl area are the second highest in Wales, following the Rhondda, and cites that four girls at one high school were pregnant, all of them under 14 years of age.
Aiff paediatregydd cymunedol lleol ymlaen i ddweud bod ffigurau beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau yn ardal y Rhyl yr ail uchaf yng Nghymru, ar ôl y Rhondda, a dywed fod pedair geneth mewn un ysgol yn feichiog, pob un ohonynt dan 14 mlwydd oed.
Teenage pregnancy is not only a key cause of low birth weight and child poverty and social exclusion among the children born to young parents, it also has a dire effect on the life chances of the young parents. We need to ensure that this problem is properly recognised within the context of our approach to health behaviour among school-age children, which will hopefully arise from this report and this afternoon’s debate.
Mae beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau nid yn unig yn un o brif achosion pwysau geni isel a thlodi plant ac allgáu cymdeithasol ymysg y plant a enir i rieni ifanc, mae hefyd yn cael effaith ofnadwy ar gyfleoedd bywyd y rhieni ifanc. Mae angen inni sicrhau y caiff y broblem hon ei chydnabod yn iawn yng nghyd-destun ein hymagwedd at ymddygiad iechyd ymysg plant oed ysgol, a fydd yn codi, gobeithio, o’r adroddiad hwn a dadl y prynhawn yma.
I agree with many speakers that health inequalities are central to this issue. We all know that, in communities where there is a sense of hopelessness and despair, adults are not receptive to healthy living messages, and neither are adolescents and younger children. Often, children in that sort of deprived community get inadequate opportunities to develop their talents—be they intellectual, sporting, or related to arts, music or dance, or other talents. If they have not developed their talents, they are less likely to have other interests and are more prone to behaviour such as hanging around on the streets, which too often leads to misuse of illegal or legal drugs. We must tackle health inequalities if we are to do anything about these problems.
Cytunaf â llawer o’r siaradwyr fod anghyfartaleddau iechyd yn ganolog i’r mater hwn. Gŵyr pawb ohonom nad yw oedolion, na phobl ifanc a phlant iau chwaith, yn barod i dderbyn negeseuon byw bywyd iach, mewn cymunedau lle mae ymdeimlad o anobaith a digalondid. Yn aml, bydd plant yn y math hwnnw o gymuned ddifreintiedig yn cael cyfleoedd annigonol i ddatblygu’u talentau—boed hwy’n ddoniau deallusol, ym myd chwaraeon, neu’n gysylltiedig â’r celfyddydau, cerddoriaeth neu ddawns, neu’n ddoniau eraill. Os nad ydynt wedi datblygu’u talentau, maent yn llai tebygol o gael diddordebau eraill ac yn fwy tueddol o wneud pethau fel sefyllian ar gorneli stryd, a hynny’n aml yn arwain at gamddefnyddio cyffuriau anghyfreithlon neu gyfreithlon. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd os am wneud unrhyw beth am y problemau hyn.
This is an important debate because we know that adolescents are impressionable and living patterns for life are often set at that age. We know, for example, that the way in which youngsters are introduced to alcohol is important. The rate of drunkenness and alcohol misuse is much higher here than in Europe, and I believe that is connected to the way in which young people are introduced to alcohol. It is more responsible to introduce it in a family setting, with a glass of wine at mealtimes, when parents can talk about healthy attitudes, moderation, and so on, than otherwise. In my own youth, I recall some of my peers lurking around the streets, persuading people to go into off-licences and pubs to buy them flagons of cider and so on, or identifying local pubs that were, shall we say, less fussy about the age of drinkers frequenting their establishments. That kind of irresponsible introduction to alcohol, where young people egg each other on to drink to excess, is obviously not the sort of model that we want to encourage. The Assembly should explore ways of encouraging a responsible introduction to alcohol among our young people. It works well on the continent, where the family introduces drinking in moderation. That is a far better model than that which often happens in Wales, and considering the respective rates of drunkenness and so on, we have much to learn from the continent.
Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig oherwydd gwyddom fod pobl ifanc yn agored i ddylanwadau ac y sefydlir patrymau byw am oes yn aml yn yr oedran hwnnw. Gwyddom, er enghraifft, fod y ffordd y cyflwynir pobl ifanc i alcohol yn bwysig. Mae llawer mwy o feddwi a chamddefnyddio alcohol yma nag yn Ewrop, a chredaf fod cysylltiad rhwng hyn â’r ffordd y cyflwynir pobl ifanc i alcohol. Mae’n fwy cyfrifol ei gyflwyno mewn sefyllfa deuluol, gyda gwydraid o win dros bryd bwyd, lle gall rhieni siarad am agweddau iach, cymedroldeb, ac ati, nag fel arall. Yn fy ieuenctid fy hun, cofiaf rai o’m cyfoedion yn stelcian ar hyd y strydoedd, yn perswadio pobl i fynd i mewn i siopau diod a thafarnau i brynu fflagonau seidr ac ati iddynt, neu’n nodi tafarndai lleol a oedd, ddywedwn ni, yn poeni llai am oed yr yfwyr a’u mynychai. Yn amlwg, nid y math hwnnw o gyflwyniad anghyfrifol i alcohol, lle bydd pobl ifanc yn herio’i gilydd i yfed gormod, yw’r math o batrwm y mae arnom eisiau’i annog. Dylai’r Cynulliad ymchwilio i ffyrdd o annog cyflwyniad cyfrifol i alcohol ymysg ein pobl ifanc. Mae’n gweithio’n dda ar y cyfandir, lle bydd y teulu’n cyflwyno yfed cymedrol. Dyna fodel llawer gwell na’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn aml yng Nghymru, ac o ystyried faint o feddwi ac ati sydd yma o gymharu â’r fan honno, mae gennym lawer i’w ddysgu oddi wrth y cyfandir.
On smoking, a ban on advertising and smoking in public places has already been mentioned, and I agree with those policies. However, a ban on smoking in public places is perhaps a medium to long-term aim. In the interim we should work towards voluntary no-smoking codes, and we should try to ensure that increasing numbers of our cafes, restaurants, pubs, and other public places, sign up to these voluntary codes, which could be promoted by local authorities. We could then work towards a more general ban.
Ar ysmygu, soniwyd eisoes am wahardd hysbysebu ac ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus, a chytunaf â’r polisïau hynny. Fodd bynnag, nod tymor canolig i hir, efallai, yw gwahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Yn y cyfamser dylem weithio tuag at godau dim ysmygu gwirfoddol, a dylem geisio sicrhau bod mwy a mwy o’n caffis, tai bwyta, tafarnau, a mannau cyhoeddus eraill, yn mabwysiadu’r codau gwirfoddol hyn, y gellid eu hyrwyddo gan awdurdodau lleol. Wedyn gallem weithio tuag at waharddiad mwy cyffredinol.
Safe Routes to School is a fantastic scheme. There is a reference to its importance in the report, and I commend Sue Essex on its introduction. We need to develop and expand this scheme.
Mae Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol yn gynllun gwych. Cyfeirir at ei bwysigrwydd yn yr adroddiad, a chanmolaf Sue Essex am ei gyflwyno. Mae angen inni ddatblygu ac ehangu’r cynllun hwn.
In conclusion, I believe that we need to expand youth clubs, because when young people have things to do, they are not hanging around the streets. They do productive things with their time, and are not prone to misusing substances such as alcohol, drugs, and so forth. The chill-out zone in the Ringland council estate, in my constituency of Newport East, has been most successful at addressing disorder. It gives youngsters things to do other than hanging around the streets and is a successful model that promotes healthy living and deters the misuse of substances, alcohol and drugs. We need to expand those schemes and support them adequately.
I gloi, credaf fod angen inni ehangu clybiau ieuenctid, oherwydd pan fydd gan bobl ifanc bethau i’w gwneud, ni fyddant yn sefyllian yn y stryd. Gwnânt bethau cynhyrchiol gyda’u hamser, ac nid ydynt yn dueddol o gamddefnyddio sylweddau fel alcohol, cyffuriau ac ati. Bu’r ardal chill-out ar stad dai Ringland, yn fy etholaeth yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, yn llwyddiannus dros ben o ran dileu anhrefn. Mae’n rhoi pethau i bobl ifanc eu gwneud yn lle loetran o gwmpas y strydoedd ac mae’n batrwm llwyddiannus sy’n hybu bywyd iach ac yn atal camddefnydd sylweddau, alcohol a chyffuriau. Mae angen ehangu’r cynlluniau hyn a’u cefnogi’n ddigonol.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 91
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
I am grateful to Members for their comments. This debate was an opportunity to discuss an international study that involved 3,500 young people in Wales since 1986. It gave us a sense of direction, and matters to reflect upon in developing the action plan that will follow.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau am eu sylwadau. Bu’r ddadl hon yn gyfle i drafod astudiaeth ryngwladol a fu’n ymdrin â 3,500 o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru er 1986. Rhoddodd synnwyr cyfeiriad inni, a materion i’w hystyried wrth ddatblygu’r cynllun gweithredu a ddaw yn ei sgîl.
Dai repeated many of the more disturbing findings of this study. An action plan is needed in order to bring together the many strategies that we are developing, and to tackle the issues before us. Dai mentioned issues such as smoking, and John Griffiths and others also discussed it. ‘Better Health, Better Wales’ contains strong targets to reduce smoking among 15 and 16 year-olds. Some of the action has been developed as a result of initiatives such as smoke bugs, our smoke-free class competitions, the ‘Burning Issues’ packs, the tobacco action groups and the advertising currently seen on buses. All that has had an impact, and listening to young people is key. I will return to Kirsty’s important points. Health promotion must be developed on the basis of evidence that the message is getting through to young people and is working.
Ailadroddodd Dai lawer o ganfyddiadau mwy annifyr yr astudiaeth. Mae angen cynllun gweithredu er mwyn dwyn ynghyd y llu o strategaethau yr ydym yn eu datblygu, ac i fynd i’r afael â’r materion ger ein bron. Soniodd Dai am faterion fel ysmygu, a thrafodwyd hynny hefyd gan John Griffiths ac eraill. Mae ‘Gwell Iechyd, Gwell Cymru’ yn cynnwys targedau cryf i leihau ysmygu ymysg rhai 15 ac 16 oed. Datblygwyd rhyw gymaint o’r gweithredu o ganlyniad i fentrau fel bygiau baco, ein cystadlaethau dosbarth di-fwg, y pecynnau ‘Pynciau Llosg’, y grwpiau atal tybaco a’r hysbysebion a welir ar fysiau ar hyn o bryd. Mae hyn i gyd wedi cael effaith, a gwrando ar bobl ifanc yw’r allwedd. Deuaf yn ôl at bwyntiau pwysig Kirsty. Rhaid datblygu hybu iechyd ar sail tystiolaeth fod y neges yn mynd drwodd i bobl ifanc a’i bod yn gweithio.
David, you are right that wellbeing is key for our young people. The issue is about self-esteem and morale. That is at the heart of some of the questioning that we are trying to bring forward through this study. The issue is about the impact of stress and anxiety. At the sharp end, we must recognise that that will be part of how we build our child and adolescent mental health strategy. The issue is also about the broader matter that Christine, Dai, David and others mentioned, on how to ensure young people’s morale and that their horizons are expanded. Young people’s participation is key and the Assembly is taking that forward through the schools councils, the youth fora that Kirsty mentioned, Llais Ifanc and how we build that representative base, extending entitlement, and the expansion and development of the role of the youth service. We are bringing that back to life, as it has been lost, in many ways, for too many generations. Engaging with young people is key. All our projects require young people’s involvement.
David, yr ydych yn iawn fod lles yn allweddol i bobl ifanc. Mater o hunan-barch a morâl ydyw. Dyna sydd wrth graidd rhai o’r cwestiynau yr ydym yn ceisio’u rhoi gerbron drwy’r astudiaeth hon. Mater o effaith straen a phryder ydyw. Yn y pen draw, rhaid inni gydnabod y bydd hynny’n rhan o’r modd yr adeiladwn ein strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc. Mae hefyd yn fater o’r cwestiwn ehangach a gododd Christine, Dai, David ac eraill, sef sut i sicrhau morâl pobl ifanc ac ehangu’u gorwelion. Mae cyfranogiad pobl ifanc yn allweddol ac mae’r Cynulliad yn mynd â hynny yn ei flaen drwy’r cynghorau ysgolion, y fforymau ieuenctid y soniodd Kirsty amdanynt, Llais Ifanc a sut yr adeiladwn y sylfaen gynrychioliadol honno, gan ymestyn hawl, ac ehangu a datblygu rôl y gwasanaeth ieuenctid. Yr ydym yn atgyfodi hwnnw, gan y bu ar goll, mewn sawl ffordd, ers gormod o genedlaethau. Mae cyfathrebu â phobl ifanc yn allweddol. Mae pob un o’n prosiectau’n galw am gyfranogiad pobl ifanc.
David and Christine, you mentioned the substance misuse strategy. It is an eight-year strategy, which I launched to tackle drug and alcohol problems. We have doubled the treatment fund. There are areas with particular needs in the Valleys communities. We recognise that and have debated that issue in the Assembly. We must also consider implementing guidance in schools. New guidance is coming through for consultation and young people must learn about substance misuse.
David a Christine, fe sonioch chi am y strategaeth ar gamddefnyddio sylweddau. Mae’n strategaeth wyth mlwydd oed, a lansiwyd gennyf i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau cyffuriau ac alcohol. Yr ydym wedi dyblu’r gronfa driniaeth. Mae ardaloedd ag anghenion penodol yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd. Sylweddolwn hynny ac yr ydym wedi trafod y mater hwnnw yn y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni ystyried hefyd weithredu canllawiau mewn ysgolion. Mae canllawiau newydd yn dod trwodd ar gyfer ymgynghori ac mae’n rhaid i bobl ifanc ddysgu am gamddefnydd sylweddau.
Regarding nutrition, the Food Standards Agency is working with us to help develop a nutrition strategy. We have also launched a fruit tuck shop scheme. Twenty projects are also now funded under the community food initiative, over half of which focus on children and young people. They are already having an impact. One project works with young teenage mothers through the community food initiative. Many others are also linked to Sure Start. As Christine said, we must have a multi-agency approach.
O safbwynt maeth, mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn gweithio gyda ni i helpu datblygu strategaeth faeth. Yr ydym hefyd wedi lansio cynllun siopau ffrwythau mewn ysgolion. Caiff 20 o brosiectau eu hariannu hefyd bellach dan y fenter bwyd cymunedol, dros eu hanner yn canolbwyntio ar blant a phobl ifanc. Maent eisoes yn cael effaith. Mae un prosiect yn gweithio gyda mamau ifanc yn eu harddegau drwy’r fenter bwyd cymunedol. Mae llawer o rai eraill yn gysylltiedig â Chychwyn Cadarn. Fel y dywedodd Christine, rhaid inni edrych ar hyn ar draws asiantaethau.
Do you agree that the multi-million dieting industry must shoulder some of the blame for the problems with regard to nutrition because it has succeeded in demonising many foods over the years? If you look back over time, attitudes have changed. We have been told about good or bad food, which has confused people. If we are to establish a proper programme, the issue should be about considering food as something to enjoy and advising people to eat in moderation. For young girls in particular, bulimia and anorexia are real problems. The dieting industry has a great deal to consider in that regard.
A ydych yn cytuno bod yn rhaid i’r diwydiant colli pwysau, sy’n werth miliynau lawer, ysgwyddo rhywfaint o’r bai am y problemau ynghylch maeth oherwydd ei fod wedi llwyddo i wneud llawer o fwydydd yn esgymun dros y blynyddoedd? Os edrychwch yn ôl dros gyfnod, mae agweddau wedi newid. Yr ydym wedi cael gwybod am fwyd da neu fwyd drwg, ac mae hynny wedi drysu pobl. Os ydym am sefydlu rhaglen iawn, dylid ceisio ystyried bwyd fel rhywbeth i’w fwynhau a chynghori pobl i fwyta’n gymedrol. I enethod ifanc yn arbennig, mae bwlimia ac anorecsia yn broblemau gwirioneddol. Mae gan y diwydiant colli pwysau lawer i’w ystyried yn hynny o beth.
That is an important point. You drew attention to the worrying findings that are coming through about young girls, in particular, not eating breakfast and not eating lunch and dinner either. There are some worrying findings coming through in this study in terms of the health of girls. We must bring all those dimensions into our nutrition strategy. Janice also noted that point. This must be an approach that covers economic considerations, the environment, sport and leisure, education and health. Everyone in the Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government has a role to play. Transport issues must also be included. These are key issues for how we address health and wellbeing. David made that point with regard to how we define the concept of wellbeing among the young people of Wales. The issue then returns to the problem of health inequalities. We must consider the most excluded groups in our communities, as John and others have said. The Sports Council for Wales is carrying out good work, but it must reach out to the excluded as well as those who have the opportunities to show their sporting ability. There is clear, positive association, as I said in my opening remarks, between the indicators of socio-economic status and health and wellbeing among the young people of Wales. That is why we must link our strategy to Communities First, to our community food initiative and to work on health inequalities. I also assure you that the 2002 study will carry out much more extensive work on socio-economic status. It will be an in-depth study. That will address John’s and Janet’s points regarding that issue.
Mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig. Tynasoch sylw at y darganfyddiadau sy’n dod i’r wyneb ynghylch genethod ifanc, yn enwedig, yn mynd heb frecwast ac yn peidio â bwyta cinio na swper chwaith, sy’n destun pryder. Mae canfyddiadau sy’n achosi pryder yn yr astudiaeth hon yn nhermau iechyd genethod. Rhaid inni ddod â’r dimensiynau hynny ynghyd yn ein strategaeth ar faeth. Nododd Janice y pwynt hwnnw hefyd. Rhaid inni fynd ati mewn modd sy’n edrych ar ystyriaethau economaidd, yr amgylchedd, chwaraeon a hamdden, addysg a iechyd. Mae gan bawb yn y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ran i’w chwarae. Rhaid cynnwys materion cludiant hefyd. Mae’r rhain yn faterion allweddol i’r modd yr ystyriwn iechyd a lles. Gwnaeth David y pwynt hwnnw gyda golwg ar sut y diffiniwn gysyniad lles ymhlith pobl ifanc Cymru. Daw’r mater yn ôl wedyn at broblem anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Rhaid inni ystyried y grwpiau sydd wedi’u hallgáu fwyaf yn ein cymunedau, fel y dywedodd John ac eraill. Mae Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru’n gwneud gwaith da, ond rhaid iddo ymestyn at y rhai a allgaewyd yn ogystal ag at y rheini sydd â’r cyfleoedd i ddangos eu gallu mewn chwaraeon. Mae cysylltiad clir, cadarnhaol, fel y dywedais yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, rhwng dangosyddion statws cymdeithasol-economaidd a iechyd a lles ymhlith pobl ifanc Cymru. Dyna pam y mae’n rhaid inni gysylltu’n strategaeth â Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, â’n menter bwyd cymunedol ac â gwaith ar anghyfartaleddau iechyd. Sicrhaf chwi hefyd y bydd astudiaeth 2002 yn gwneud gwaith llawer mwy helaeth ar statws cymdeithasol-economaidd. Bydd yn astudiaeth drwyadl. Bydd hynny’n ateb pwyntiau John a Janet ynglŷn â’r mater hwnnw.
Ann, you drew attention, as did others, to the issue of sexual health, the behaviour and needs of our young people, and the important and disturbing report from Denbighshire on low birth weight babies. You referred to Rhyl and the connection that we must make between health inequalities and our index of multiple deprivation and what that tells us about how we address the needs of disadvantaged young people in Wales. We must address our findings to that because, interestingly, in my monthly report this week, I show a 7 per cent fall in teenage pregnancies in the last year, building on a 7 per cent fall in the previous year, which is a 14 per cent fall in teenage pregnancies across Wales, with the exception of some pockets in your community, Ann, and in others. We must be more sophisticated in how we target those pockets. If we have a 14 per cent fall in teenage pregnancies in Wales, we should see that across the board and not just in certain areas. Our sexual health strategy and our sex education programmes are key in this; we must recognise that Health Promotion Wales has done good work on the sexual health strategy and has already collected data. However, Kirsty, we will be considering the data for 2002 to guide us on that important issue.
Ann, fe dynasoch chi sylw, fel y gwnaeth eraill, at fater iechyd rhywiol, ymddygiad ac anghenion ein pobl ifanc, a’r adroddiad pwysig ac annifyr o Sir Ddinbych ar fabanod â phwysau geni isel. Cyfeiriasoch at y Rhyl a’r cysylltiad y mae’n rhaid inni ei wneud rhwng anghyfartaleddau iechyd a’n mynegai difreintiad lluosog a beth y mae hynny’n ei ddweud wrthym am y modd yr ymdriniwn ag anghenion pobl ifanc ddifreintiedig yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni edrych ar ein casgliadau ar hynny oherwydd, yn ddiddorol, yn fy adroddiad misol yr wythnos hon, dangosaf gwymp o 7 y cant mewn beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, a hynny ar ben cwymp o 7 y cant yn y flwyddyn flaenorol, sydd yn gwymp o 14 y cant mewn beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau ledled Cymru, ac eithrio ambell i boced yn eich cymuned chi, Ann, ac mewn eraill. Rhaid inni fod yn fwy soffistigedig yn y modd y targedwn y pocedi hynny. Os oes gennym gwymp o 14 y cant mewn beichiogrwydd ymysg rhai yn eu harddegau yng Nghymru, dylem weld hynny ar draws y bwrdd ac nid dim ond mewn rhai ardaloedd. Mae’n strategaeth iechyd rhywiol a’n rhaglenni addysg ryw yn allweddol yn hyn o beth; rhaid inni gydnabod fod Hybu Iechyd Cymru wedi gwneud gwaith da ar y strategaeth iechyd rhywiol ac wedi casglu data yn barod. Fodd bynnag, Kirsty, byddwn yn ystyried y data am 2002 i’n harwain ar y mater pwysig hwnnw.
We must also remember that Sure Start is important to young people. Jane Davidson and I have often discussed how young mothers and young parents are treated in education and how we link that to our other initiatives. Our action plan must—and will—develop this broad, cross-cutting approach to how we learn from the findings that emerge from this important WHO survey. Kirsty’s points sum up the situation. Young people are a resource from whom we learn, as Members did when young people visited the Assembly. We know that the right people to do this are the young people themselves. The youth fora developing throughout Wales will play a powerful role. You mentioned Powys, I will mention the Vale of Glamorgan, but many are taking this forward. Our action plan will reflect that approach and this debate has added value to our consideration of the findings in this important survey. I thank Members for that.
Rhaid inni gofio hefyd fod Cychwyn Cadarn yn bwysig i bobl ifanc. Mae Jane Davidson a mi yn aml wedi trafod y modd y caiff mamau ifanc a rhieni ifanc eu trin mewn addysg a sut y cysylltwn hynny â’n mentrau eraill. Rhaid i’n cynllun gweithredu—ac fe wnaiff—ddatblygu’r ymagwedd eang, trawsbynciol at sut y dysgwn oddi wrth y canfyddiadau a gyfyd o’r arolwg pwysig hwn gan Fudiad Iechyd y Byd. Mae pwyntiau Kirsty’n crynhoi’r sefyllfa. Mae pobl ifanc yn adnoddau y gallwn ddysgu oddi wrthynt, fel y gwnaeth Aelodau pan ymwelodd pobl ifanc â’r Cynulliad. Gwyddom mai’r bobl iawn i wneud hyn yw’r bobl ifanc eu hunain. Bydd y fforymau ieuenctid sy’n datblygu ledled Cymru’n chwarae rôl bwerus. Bu ichi grybwyll Powys, mi soniaf innau am Fro Morgannwg, ond mae llawer yn mynd â hyn yn ei flaen. Bydd ein cynllun gweithredu’n adlewyrchu’r ymagwedd honno ac mae’r ddadl hon wedi ychwanegu gwerth at ein hystyriaeth o ganfyddiadau’r arolwg pwysig hwn. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am hynny.
Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 94
Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 94
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 David Melding t. 95
Amendment 2 David Melding p. 95
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1023 Jane Hutt t. 96
Motion NDM1023 Jane Hutt p. 96
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.14 p.m.
The session ended at 5.14 p.m.