I update the Assembly on the position regarding the Corus redundancies and the work which the Assembly Government, its agencies, and the local authorities, have undertaken to mitigate the effects of the redundancies, and to regenerate the affected areas in the five counties.

It is now around 15 months since Corus announced its job losses in Wales. The redundancies are, of course, still working through. Earlier this month, around 140 people lost their jobs when the coke ovens at Llanwern closed, but I understand that all those workers have been placed elsewhere within Corus. Approximately 450 workers will leave Ebbw Vale following the final closure in July. As well as the direct job losses, there have been indirect losses from contractors and other service providers who were dependent on Corus directly or indirectly for their livelihoods.

In my statement on this issue on 31 January, I paid tribute to the work of the support agencies, particularly Education and Learning Wales, the Employment Service, the Benefits Agency and Careers Wales in setting up advice centres and making help and assistance available to the workers. That support has been ongoing and our latest figures indicate that almost 900 of those identified for redundancy have secured alternative jobs. The agencies are fully geared up for the next round of job losses and are working closely with steel partnership training’s advocate workers to ensure that everyone who needs it has access to the best advice and guidance so that they gain maximum benefit from the available support package.

In my January statement, I also mentioned the research and development centre at Port Talbot. The current position is that the centre has been renamed ECM2—engineering centre for manufacturing and materials. The acquisition was completed on 30 March and a chief operating officer has been appointed. The centre has been designated as the manufacturing advisory service for Wales, part of the Department of Trade and Industry’s network programme. The centre is receiving further inquiries from institutions wishing to locate there, therefore things are looking promising for the centre.

Before moving on to talk specifically about developments in south-east Wales, I will also update the Assembly on the situation regarding blast furnace number five at Port Talbot, and the latest position on the impact of the US steel tariffs. Our thoughts remain with the families and colleagues of those who lost their lives or were seriously injured by the explosion at blast furnace number five. It brought home to us the real dangers faced by those working in heavy industries and the emergency services, who sometimes have to tend to the wounded after an explosion. Therefore, we were pleased to hear of Corus’s decision to build a new blast furnace at a cost of £75 million with much improved environmental performance, which will bring the Port Talbot works back to normal integrated operations as soon as possible. This is a strong demonstration of the company’s commitment to integrated steel making in Wales, and is a fitting testament to those who were killed or injured in the explosion.

The US announcement on 5 March to levy tariffs on a range of steel products imported into the US was completely unjustified and is deeply regrettable. Together with the UK Government, we have done, and will continue to do, all that we can to safeguard the interests of the UK steel industry from this totally unfair action. We have fully supported the introduction from the beginning of this month of provisional EU anti-surge safeguard measures to protect the European steel industry from the diversion of displaced steel products that can no longer afford to enter the US market. We have also pledged our support for the European Commission’s action in immediately invoking World Trade Organisation dispute settlement procedures, although we recognise that they may take more than a year to come to a conclusion. We shall continue to fully support measures to ensure that our steel industry is not unfairly treated or disadvantaged.

Turning to the regeneration framework for the five counties, I am pleased to announce that the Assembly Government received the final report from the five counties in February. This report is the result of work undertaken on behalf of the all-Wales steel taskforce by the Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly, Monmouthshire, Newport and Torfaen local authorities, the WDA and ELWa, and funded by the Assembly Government. I wish to pay tribute to the work of the local authorities in coming together and presenting a joint regeneration framework. This is a model that we would encourage elsewhere in Wales as a means of delivering joined-up programmes linking the local and the national economic policies. The full five counties report has been put on the Assembly website. I am pleased to say that the Cabinet has endorsed almost all of the recommendations in the report, and we look forward to seeing the local authorities, together with the relevant agencies, continuing to work together through the regeneration forum, to pursue the ambitions in the report.

In January, I announced a number of specific initiatives that were identified in the framework and funded out of the £76 million that the Assembly Government has made available. Although it is still early days, I can report good progress against these projects. Newport County Borough Council, in partnership with the WDA, has commissioned a designation report for the proposed urban regeneration company. The report will make recommendations concerning the operational boundary of the company and will include a draft business plan. The report is being prepared in conjunction with a review of Newport’s unitary development plan to ensure the activities of the not-for-profit company are fully integrated with the statutory planning system. Work is also underway on the design and business plan for the Ebbw Vale passenger rail service. A programme for the implementation of the proposal will be ready by mid summer.

Proposals for a new learning campus on the Ebbw Vale site are progressing well. Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, in partnership with University of Wales College Newport, Coleg Gwent, ELWa, the WDA and Corus, is currently developing detailed proposals for the project. A masterplan for phase 1 will be available by July, and a detailed masterplan and business case for the entire site will be complete by the end of this year. A steering partnership, consisting of UWCN, Coleg Gwent, ELWa, the community consortia for education and training, the local authorities and the Assembly Government, has been established to drive the community learning network project forward. A detailed analysis of education and training needs is being undertaken and this will provide the basis for developing education and training facilities in local communities.

An information and communications technology strategy for Blaenau Gwent is underway, consisting of infrastructure development to provide broadband access linked to intensive business support. This project will enable companies in Blaenau Gwent to take full advantage of the digital revolution. We shall continue to monitor these projects carefully and ensure that they are delivered as quickly as possible.

I now turn to the new initiatives arising from the regeneration framework that the Assembly Government has agreed to fund. In the first instance, there is a need to continue to develop strategic employment sites and premises in the area to encourage and grow businesses. The WDA has brought forward an exciting package of sites that, together, would provide some 215,000 square feet of premises at a total cost of some £14.475 million. Of this total, some £6.575 million will be made available out of the Corus regeneration package, and £2.875 million from the Assembly economic match funding budget. The remainder would come from EU structural funds and from the private sector.

The sites and premises that have been agreed with the local authority partners are: the Tredegar business park; the Ebbw Vale Innovation Centre; small units at Roseheyworth and the Abertillery town centre scheme in the borough of Blaenau Gwent; the Oakdale business park in the borough of Caerphilly; Queensway Meadows industrial estate in Newport; and Mamhilad in Torfaen. The WDA is working closely with the Welsh European Funding Office and the other partners in putting together a financial package to ensure that these projects are up and running as quickly as possible.

Three other significant projects are highlighted in the regeneration framework, which the Assembly Government is backing out of the remaining Corus regeneration funds. First, we are providing £1 million to support the south-east Wales regional tourism partnership development programme. This is designed to further develop tourism in the area and will benefit the whole region. Potential projects include the implementation of the south Wales industrial heritage action plan, golf tourism, and marketing schemes.

Secondly, we are extending the community learning network that I announced in January across the whole of the region. The aim of this programme is to help the regeneration forum achieve one of its key objectives, namely, a substantial increase in participative educational and learning opportunities throughout the five counties. The steering group, which I mentioned earlier, will drive this project over the whole area. It will also be informed by the learning needs enquiry, and it is envisaged that the final structure will be agreed by the autumn. The sum of £7 million will be set aside from the Corus package for this initiative, in addition to the £2 million previously announced.

Finally, we are committing £2 million to supporting the proposal to enhance the take-up of information and communications technology and broadband services throughout the region. This will enable the acceleration of business support and infrastructure work, and will complement ‘Cymru Ar-lein’.

Clearly, much work needs to be done to work up these initiatives, but my statement today clears the way for the Welsh Development Agency and its local partners to get on with the job of regenerating the area’s economy.

My announcement is a commitment of £16.575 million. Together with the other commitments that we are supporting, this completes the full allocation of the £76 million, allowing for a level of contingency on some of the projects.

As I said in January, there are no quick fixes for the problems of the former steel-making areas, but the Assembly Government is committed to regenerating these areas and to restarting their economic viability, in partnership with our agencies and local authority partners. This announcement today underlines that commitment.

Do you remember that in the immediate aftermath of the Corus announcement Plaid Cymru calculated that the minimum cost of recovering from that economic blow would require total Government expenditure of £130 million? At the time it was dismissed as an overestimate by some members of your Government. Do you now agree that, in light of your figures, if the full cost of a passenger service from Ebbw Vale to Newport and Cardiff were included, along with the full cost of providing broadband services to all exchanges in the five counties, at least an extra £40 million would be required to complete the strategy you have outlined today? Will you therefore confirm that our estimate was accurate, and that, when it is possible to complete the railway project and provide full broadband accessibility, this extra sum will be required?

Secondly, will you confirm that, in light of the statements you have made to the Economic Development Committee over the past 15 months, the Corus job losses represent less than half of the recorded manufacturing job losses in the five counties, as there have also been losses at GE Aircraft Engine Services Ltd, Nantgarw, and at Alcan? Will you also confirm that there have been comparable job losses in all parts of Wales, including other parts of the Valleys in the electronics industry, the Gorseinon area, Deeside in optic fibre manufacturing, and the Conwy valley at the Alcoa plant? In proportion to the population of these areas, some of these job losses are just as serious. Therefore, will you accept that a proper assessment of the needs in each part of Wales, and a regional strategy similar to the excellent strategies used by the local authorities in the five counties regeneration framework to meet those needs, would be a fair response to these job losses in all parts of Wales? Will you confirm the suggestion made in the autumn that this regeneration strategy will be the model for similar strategies in all economic regions of Wales, so that we can fill this serious gap in the national economic development strategy as a matter of urgency?

Finally, will you confirm that the £76 million that you have announced will come from the Assembly budget, and that the £16 million from the Treasury and the European Union will be made available in addition to this? We should remember that Gordon Brown’s deliberate fiscal policies to maintain the pound at a high level was the main cause of the redundancies, and yet the Treasury was only willing to contribute £8 million to regeneration? Also, as the costs of regeneration are ongoing, have you pressed the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider this when assessing Wales’s allocation in the coming spending review?

I will work backwards through some of those points so that we can reach agreement here and there. It is absurd to suggest that Gordon Brown is personally responsible for the high level of sterling or the weakness of the euro. The weakness of the euro is a market problem, which we can do nothing about. Everyone would prefer that the euro had not lost 30 per cent of its value since it was launched three or four years ago. That was the cause of steel production’s problems within a multinational industry, half of which is inside the eurozone and the other half outside of it. It caused the job losses that were announced in January last year. There was some mismanagement on Corus’ part, not on Gordon Brown’s part. I can confirm that the £76 million that we are talking about today, of which I announced details of the final £16.575 million in my statement, is Assembly Government money. The £16 million, half of which comes from the Economic and Social Committee funds in Europe and the other half from the Department of Trade and Industry funds, is additional money from the Government and Europe. That gives a total of £92 million. We can agree on the mathematics at least.

We will probably never agree on your point about regional targeting, but it is a classic example of the kind of co-operation at a sub-regional level that we want to encourage elsewhere in Wales. I made that clear in my statement. There are 22 local authorities in Wales. Five of them took a particularly big hit in the old county of Gwent and in part of Caerphilly borough—which was in the old county of Mid-Glamorgan that we loosely call south-east Wales—when the Corus job losses were announced. That is the point about regional targeting. It would include Newport, which is on the M4 belt, Monmouthshire, which is not usually considered part of industrial Wales, and three of the old steel tinplate and coal mining boroughs in the classic industrial south Wales area—Torfaen, Caerphilly and Blaenau Gwent. You must have a regional target every time you have a new problem and it will be a different definition of the boundary according to how the problem has arisen. That is what happened. There was a high concentration of steel job losses in the area between Ebbw Vale and Newport and the areas immediately either side of it, and that is why we designated this region and encouraged the five local authorities to work together. Remarkably, given the history of some of the local authorities in Wales, they did come together and could see that you do not always want the jobs in your particular local authority if your commuters can access the jobs in an adjoining authority. The degree of co-operation, regardless of exactly where the local authority boundaries were, has been remarkable.

You gave financial estimates earlier. You are right that it would cost more if the Ebbw Vale railway line was open to Newport as well as Cardiff. We originally thought that it would go to Newport rather than Cardiff until the tunnel under the Gaer junction problem emerged. It then became easier to open the line to Cardiff rather than Newport in the short term. However, in the long term, it would be wrong if it did not also run to Newport. That is dependent on a Railtrack programme to improve facilities in that tunnel. That would cost around £30 million. However, even then, new problems emerge. We operated originally on the basis that there would be no freight and only a passenger service. It now looks as if freight will be running, which will increase the expense. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. We do not want to close it down for freight, but it means additional expense because there must be loops for the passenger trains and the freight trains to open. You cannot anticipate such things when you make a statement, and when you go into it in more detail, suddenly something that is an economic benefit, which causes additional expense, means that you must change the estimate occasionally. However, we do not want to become too theological about it.

Thank you for your statement this morning. The five counties regeneration framework is a welcome long-term response to Corus’s decision. I welcome the emphasis that has been placed on the regeneration of town centres in the framework. In Torfaen, the regeneration of Pontypool town centre is a longstanding priority for the local community. Will you indicate whether the regeneration of Pontypool town centre will be given the financial support that it needs? The issue of the improvement of the road links between Blaenavon and the Heads of the Valleys road is also highlighted in the framework. This again is a vital improvement for Torfaen, not only in terms of job creation, but also in terms of exploiting the full potential of the world heritage site in Torfaen. If both those projects will not be funded under the framework, will you give an assurance that you will consider other ways of funding them?

Finally, regarding the Community Learning Enterprise Centre in Torfaen, my local authority will be concerned about the funding mechanism for the community learning network outlined today, namely that the framework’s aims could be undermined by the lack of funding targeted at strategically important sites, such as the project in Torfaen. Will the First Minister give assurance that he will consider this matter closely and ensure that Assembly funding is directed so that it has the maximum strategic impact in south-east Wales?

There was a great deal of detail in that question. The projects that you mentioned are not listed in my statement today, therefore they did not emerge as having priority status in the framework or, if they did, they were not high enough on the list in order to qualify given that we have £76 million, and no more, to spend. I will enquire which of those scenarios apply to your question.

The projects that you mentioned are important to the local area. I am aware of the need to exploit Blaenavon’s potential now that it is a world heritage site. It would be wrong not to try to exploit the industrial heritage and tourism potential in and around Blaenavon.

I will look into your other points about information communication technology, community learning networks and the Pontypool town centre regeneration project. These issues were not named today and therefore they are not in this programme. They will need to be funded by other means.

There is an enormous fund of cross-party goodwill which wants to realise the regeneration framework. A great deal of responsibility falls on the First Minister, but the framework must not merely be a wish list; it must happen. Will you confirm that the Llanwern steelworks site, which covers around 16 square miles, will be included in the regeneration plan? That is fundamental to its success.

Unemployment in south-east Wales is higher than the Welsh average, with around 20 per cent of the population unemployed. That region has some of the highest mortality and respiratory illnesses rates in Wales. There is an increasing problem of drug addiction and drug-related crime in the region. These are often sparked by unemployment. Will you consider this problem closely and bear in mind in particular that the people that need jobs have a long history of skilled employment. A well-motivated managerial and technical workforce exists in south-east Wales and people do not want jobs putting eyes in plastic dolls. A skilled workforce exists, which needs proper, well-paid jobs. I note from your remarks, which are not completely accurate, that you recognise that a similar event occurred 100 years ago when Guest Keens relocated from Dowlais in Merthyr Tydfil to Eastmoors in Cardiff. That lasted for around 70 years before it too closed. In recognising the economic reality, can we give those Valleys’ communities more resources in order to recognise that they will no longer support large-volume employers? When those grants are allocated, will you ensure that they are given to people who will create jobs that will stay in those communities and not those that exist for as long as the grants last?

I note from your Cabinet discussions that you also made large sums available for transport links. They are equally important. We are trying to entice national and international employers to invest in south-east Wales in order to build on our existing successes. This framework is worthwhile. It is up to you, Minister, to make it work.

Thank you for the spirit in which you asked your questions. There were a few of them and I will try to remember them from the notes that I made. Regarding the Llanwern steelworks site, it would be wrong for me to anticipate the urban regeneration company study’s outcome. However, I anticipate that the Llanwern site will possibly feature in the framework eventually. However, part of the site remains operational. The section that is available for other uses will be included in the URC study. The issue is about balancing the industrial interest of re-using the surplus-to-requirement section of the Llanwern site—the parts of the site that are never used, south of the existing works—with the need to regenerate the town centre and other areas, and other ways to attract a wider range of jobs into Newport.

You made an interesting point about the social problems that arise from high unemployment, with hopelessness leading to drug addiction and other problems. As a result of low self-esteem and a lack of expectations, people who are unemployed and who see no hope of finding employment—particularly young people with no experience of employment—may tend to turn to anti-social activities. Although we cannot eliminate unemployment in the short term, I hope that our quick intervention will give the hope which prevents these social problems from arising.

Unemployment in Wales has fallen 0.5 per cent during the past 12 months. That is the joint best performance among UK regions. However, as expected, Newport has not experienced that trend; it is the only part of Wales where unemployment has increased. The situation is similar in Blaenau Gwent, for obvious reasons. There are substantial redundancies to come in Ebbw Vale, when the last of the Corus job losses take place. However, I hope that the prospect of the creation of new jobs will prevent worse problems emerging.

I note your comment on types of employers, and the fact that you do not want dolls’ eyes factories. That phrase is redolent of my childhood; we grew up with it as mines and steelworks closed in south Wales. Not wanting dolls’ eyes factories is part of our culture, and it may also be true of industrial north Wales. It is a phrase that my generation absorbed with their mother’s milk.

How do we attract the right type of employers—those who will stay and not merely exploit the grant system? Because of how the pattern of regional selective assistance has developed in the past year, with a 60 per cent increase in the amount of grants offered to companies to move into Wales compared to the previous year—a record number of grants—the risk is spread across the board from small and medium-sized enterprises to expansion by existing firms, on a much larger scale than anything that we have done previously. However, as we do not have one new large employer, such as LG—which never quite came to Wales—we will not have a situation where we end up with the same problems that we had before we paid the grant because that one large empolyer hits trouble. That is a situation that we have encountered in the past. I hope that the positive history of RSA during the last 12 months indicates that that problem will not occur in future.

Thank you for the advice, Llywydd. I unequivocally welcome this timely and appropriate statement. Whether it will be adequate in the long term remains to be seen. My question refers to the core Valley areas, particularly the Rhymney and upper Islwyn valleys, which will be affected not just by the Corus closures but also by a wider economic wave. The five counties regeneration framework included a number of recommendations. You said in your statement that you endorse almost all of them. Do you accept that there will be a continuing need to give high priority to this area, with resources to match? Will you give some indication as to how you intend to respond in full to the five counties regeneration framework?

The five counties regeneration framework is aimed at addressing the big hit that occurred when the Corus job losses were announced. We are not saying that this is the only thing that will happen in the five counties. There is a general churn going on in the economy, with jobs being lost and created across Wales. It does not mean that we will not take action in addition to these programmes in this area or in other parts of Wales. The sheer size of the Corus job losses meant that we had to take action, with the local authorities working together and with the WDA and ELWa.

You mentioned the upper Islwyn and Rhymney valleys and the core industrial areas. Those areas have a particularly high degree of dependency on manufacturing, as they originally did on coal mining. However, their futures will lie in the different direction of industry combined with research and development, such as the type of employment that General Dynamics UK Ltd brings to the Oakdale business park. We want to follow that success by investing further in the Oakdale business park. It could become an industrial or business park based on research and development, which that area has never had before. Nobody has ever thought it credible to site a knowledge-based manufacturing enterprise with research and development on the site of an old coal mine in the middle of a heartland industrial area, such as you described. We want more of that, and we can fund more of that at Oakdale. There will be other requirements elsewhere, and the Welsh Development Agency and other agencies will continue to fund those through conventional spending programmes.

I welcome your statement. If anybody wants to know why this framework is important, they should see the slab steel on the back of lorries coming down the A449, on the way to Llanwern for rolling. They used to make it themselves. It is now transported on our roads, causing difficulties for the environment.

I will ask about paragraphs 689 and 690 of the ‘Five Counties Regeneration Framework Final Report 2002’, which you referred to in your statement about the community learning network. Paragraph 689 refers to the Torfaen community learning centre, and paragraph 690 refers to the Rhymney learning centre, both of which are in the action plan as important projects that are not merely on the stocks, but have in some way started. In your oral statement, you talk about a final structure being agreed by the autumn. Can you confirm that both of those projects are still in the frame for the £7 million that you have set aside for that purpose, given that you are proposing to extend the community network framework across the whole region? It would be useful for us all to know that.

My second, smaller, point was raised with me by citizens’ advice bureaux workers. They find themselves at a loss when meeting members of the public affected by the Corus job losses, as they are outside the framework of the statutory agencies providing assistance. Will you raise that matter with the agencies, and ensure that citizens’ advice bureaux, which provide excellent advice to individuals, are fully locked into the structure of the system?

Finally, on the comprehensive nature of the process, the industrial heritage project—which you referred to as a potential project—is crucial. It spans the heads of the Valleys, and further down, from iron to coal, from Newtown, Butetown and the north of the Rhymney valley, to the blast furnace works in Merthyr Tydfil and the working Tower colliery and so on. Joining them together is important, and I hope that the money will ensure that there is a comprehensive heritage action plan covering all of those sites.

Your point about heritage will always be contentious. When I visited Merthyr Tydfil, the people asked me why I was designating Blaenafon as an industrial heritage site, when the Merthyr blast furnaces were in much better condition. I thought that I would leave that argument for Huw Lewis and Lynne Neagle’s household to sort out, as I cannot possibly judge the condition of the blast furnaces at Cyfarthfa and Blaenafon. All we know is that Blaenafon has been designated a world heritage site, which presents a considerable marketing advantage. I do not disagree that there are plenty of other heritage sites from the first wave of the industrial revolution throughout the northern part of this sub-region.

The citizens advice bureaux are a difficult area for us. Given that their prime function is consumer advice, regarded as consumer counsel, they are mainly funded by the Department of Trade and Industry. It is not a devolved responsibility. We take a tremendous interest in the bureaux in Wales, as do the local authorities which we fund. However, their primary funding and purpose is set by the DTI, on the basis of consumer advice. I will consider the point about them being stranded outside the framework here.

Your questions on the community learning network are interesting. In relation to ICT, broadband, learning campuses and outreach campuses run by the University of Wales College Newport with local further education colleges and so on, we have envisaged the Ebbw Vale campus as being the model, the starter or the flagship of the project. We then want it to fit into an all-Wales framework, rolled out from Blaenau Gwent so that it will be complementary to the developments in the rest of Wales. We want to see to what extent we can tell an area like Ebbw Vale that we want it to be the model to which the rest of Wales aspires. That reverses the psychology of big cities, mid-valleys and heads of the Valleys, with the heads of the Valleys always lagging behind. What if they were ahead on some issues that are orientated towards the twenty-first century, such as ICT and community learning, where high technology services could be provided for students and small and medium-sized enterprises? That is the psychology, but it does not mean that there is no provision for the rest of the area, set in an all-Wales context, with Ebbw Vale as a model.

Finally, I admit that I should take up the matter of roads because I had understood that the company was using railway services to transport slabs. There may have been a problem that has caused them to transfer to roads, which would be regrettable.

The heritage issue in the upper Rhymney valley area is a serious point. I believe that we should develop a strategy that recognises that heritage sites are linked in their history, and that, just like the Lewis-Neagle household, they will achieve more together than they would do alone.

Hear, hear. Especially in terms of reproduction.

That is unfair. [Laughter.] Thank you for your statement, Rhodri. I was particularly pleased to see that the needs of the upper Rhymney valley have been included in the document, which rightly mentions the moves towards developing a further education college in the upper Rhymney valley and Rhymney town. I know that this has been welcomed, and is supported by the local community. Will you give an indication that you would be prepared to see this proposal go forward as a priority project for the community learning network? You visited Rhymney a few weeks ago and saw the deprivation there. Impress Metal Packaging Ltd in Rhymney has now closed—it was affected by the Corus issue—and, as many workers are now facing an uncertain future, there is a real need for new training and skills in that community. They need that college and the opportunity to retrain and upskill that it would bring.

Thank you for the spirit in which you have asked that question. As you are aware, I cannot make a funding commitment today to anything that is not in the list I gave as part of the statement. I visited Rhymney with you, at your invitation and the invitation of the college principal, and met the Impress Metal Packaging Ltd shop stewards there. The success that Rhymney College has achieved gives every indication that, given the elbow-room, it would be able to achieve further success. The way in which it has developed into a relatively large operation is impressive, and one tries to follow success in this way. I cannot give a commitment today, but I will look into the matter.

It was sad to see that the Impress Metal Packaging Ltd factory—200,000 square feet of it—has been put up for sale because, clearly, it has a good workforce, as I mentioned to the workers there. The interesting thing about the regeneration and post-redundancy experience of the people at Llanwern is that, unlike previous instances, there are now plenty of jobs in the economy, but they are not at the level of pay to which people were accustomed. People must choose whether to stay on the dole until they get another job at £20,000 or, in the case of steelworkers, £25,000 or £27,000, or accept a job at half those wages, just to stay off the dole and keep the money coming in. People have generally chosen to accept the lower paid jobs—not necessarily in the dolls’ eyes factories—at half of what they were receiving before in the heavy process industries, which tend to have much higher wages than average. However, we want to ensure that the Rhymney community is supported because it is in the eye of the storm of these steel closures, being so close to Ebbw Vale.

I thank the First Minister for his statement, which I found reassuring. The local authorities have done good work. However, we must remember that we are talking about opportunities for future generations, and in Blaenau Gwent, where we have such deprivation, and currently the highest unemployment in Wales, the prospects are still dark, as far as we are concerned, even with this announcement. It will need many more resources if we are to achieve the success that we want to see there over the coming years. However, the First Minister’s comments about the railway freight link, and the passenger news are important. I ask the First Minister to make early funding available for that link into Newport, and that the Abertillery spur is part of this passenger service. I also ask him to consider introducing funding to enable the outstanding schemes on the heads of the Valleys road, which have now possibly been postponed until 2008, to be brought forward. It is important for us to consider that. I also ask that he will be prepared, or that he will ask his Minister for Economic Development, to meet Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council to talk about Objective 1 progress. The council is concerned about how that is proceeding in its community.

I mentioned in answering Huw Lewis that I cannot give additional funding commitments today. There is a contingency element to meet any additional costs, but it is quite small. I mentioned an additional cost of which we are already conscious because freight will continue to run on the Ebbw Vale to Newport line. I also mentioned that we want to proceed with the link to Newport as soon as possible but that that is subject to Railtrack carrying out the work that it was going to do on the tunnel in the Gaer. However, we do not know the timing of that because it is putting all its resources into the train protection warning system and it does not seem to want to proceed with anything else until the installation of TPWS is completed. You also added the Abertillery spur. I am sure that these will all come in time, Peter, but I cannot give a financial commitment today. You mentioned whether local authorities have the right to come to say to the First Minister that they have concerns about the Objective 1 programme. We are corresponding on this issue and we will pursue it further by correspondence.

Can we ensure that, in taking forward this impressive response to the real difficulties created by the Corus cutback, we keep our eye on the need for the existing steel industry in Wales to be protected? I welcome your commitment to tackling the USA steel tariff situation and I hope that we continue to make strong representations on that issue. Are we nearer to knowing what fiscal advantages there may be to the urban regeneration company? Regarding the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff rail link, are we certain what difficulties exist in extending to Newport? There is much scepticism about the difficulties that have been mentioned up to now. Finally, as regards the integrated transport situation, can we try to do something about the road difficulties that the M4 presents? That is a considerable obstacle to the progress that we want.

You are right about the tariffs; the steel producing industry in the UK remains under colossal pressure. It is currently difficult to make a profit in steel in the UK. That will remain true while the euro is weak. It is true for Allied Steel and Wire Ltd in Cardiff and throughout the Corus empire in Wales, from south Wales to Shotton. As regards the tariffs exerting additional pressure, we trust and hope that the anti-surge protection measures will be enough to prevent any additional problems arising from dumped steel, which would otherwise have gone to the US, lowering prices here. Prices are rising currently and it seems that 2002 will not be as bad as 2001, but who knows? Mike German mentioned a problem concerning slab coming down from Lackenby. Corus tells me that it works okay and that the slab is of the requisite quality. When it is rolled into steel and tin plate and galvanised at Llanwern it is acceptable to all its customers, after a few initial wobbles which were inevitable. However, we are not out of the woods in steel yet and I think that everybody knows that.

You mentioned the urban regeneration company. I tried to read the budget late last night, looking for details on that and to be honest I did not find them. However, there are hundreds of pages in the budget document and we will get further advice. I will write to you when we have a clearer picture of whether there were additional fiscal concessions to forming the URC. We said that we had to wait for the budget because otherwise we would not know on what terms we would engage with the private sector, and investors would not know what tax breaks they would get from taking a stake in a not-for-profit company, such as the URC.

The rail line and the tricky bit in the tunnel from Ebbw junction into Newport station was a shock to us. We expected a line from Ebbw Vale to Newport, not Ebbw Vale to Cardiff. We were then told that we would have to wait almost until the end of the decade for an Ebbw Vale to Newport line, but that Ebbw Vale to Cardiff could be done much earlier because there is no tunnel and no signalling constraints. We said that we would go for that, but that does not mean that we do not want the line into Newport. You are right, there is much scepticism However, we accept the priority being given to TPWS. We have little alternative but to accept it, to be honest. If the work on refurbishing the signalling in the tunnel under the Gaer could be done earlier, we would be anxious to put pressure on Railtrack to do that. However, we would not want to say to Railtrack that we would pay for it; that is its job and it must do it. We would not want to include that in our budget, but we are then dependent on Railtrack for the timing.

Finally, the dualling of the M4 is the most difficult transport problem in Wales. What should be done, not so much about Newport itself, but about the impact on the rest of Wales, if there is a major constraint? We have all driven on the M4 during the rush hour and we all know that the period of rush hour constraint through the Brynglas tunnels and elsewhere on the M4 in the Newport area is steadily becoming a little longer each year as traffic increases. How to tackle that, without a colossal commitment to spend £350 million, is one of the great issues of sustainable development. Can we ensure economic development without accepting a 2 per cent compound growth in traffic on the M4, as well as on the A55 in north Wales? How can you disengage economic development from traffic growth? I wish that we knew the answer. We do not have an answer yet, but we need to find it.

I attach great importance to action on domestic violence. Today, I will share with you some recent Welsh Assembly Government initiatives that I have set in motion. Domestic violence is a serious problem that affects people from all walks of life and within all kinds of relationships. It can start with words, move on to sexual and physical abuse, and sometimes only end when someone is killed. Every day in Wales, on average, 49 women contact Welsh Women’s Aid as a result of domestic violence or abuse. During one census day in 2000, 138 women contacted Welsh Women’s Aid, and 173 women and 240 children were living in refuges throughout Wales. It is a sad fact that every three days a woman in the UK dies as a result of domestic violence.

The Welsh Assembly Government has responsibility for health and social services and child protection issues. As Minister for Health and Social Services, I have a responsibility to help prevent domestic violence in Wales and to provide care for its victims. However, lead responsibility for the criminal aspects of domestic violence rests with the Home Office. The Assembly’s crime reduction unit, which is funded by the Home Office, reports to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, and it has a number of programmes in hand in this area.

The Assembly liaises closely with the Home Office and has taken part in its campaign on domestic violence. We were part of the launch of the Break the Chain campaign in 1999, which involved the distribution of thousands of leaflets and posters—in English and Welsh—to a wide variety of organisations all over Wales. Officials have also attended meetings of the inter-departmental group on domestic violence and violence against women.

The Assembly has already taken several steps to ensure that domestic violence is taken into account in our policies. For example, in October 2001, we launched a domestic violence resource manual for health professionals. Staff throughout the health service now have up-to-date information on giving advice to women. Children can also be victims of domestic violence, directly or indirectly. We are therefore producing a model protocol, highlighting the child protection aspects of domestic abuse, to be issued to all area child protection committees in Wales.

The Assembly has, for some years, provided funding to Welsh Women’s Aid and the Black Association of Women Step Out from several different budgets to enable shelter and support to be given to victims of domestic violence. We have also ensured that relevant guidance to local authorities, registered landlords, schools and area child protection committees has included reference to the need to take domestic violence issues into account. I am aware, however, that more needs to be done to pull all our strategies together and to develop new initiatives to tackle this important issue.

As a first step, we have drawn together several funding streams that supported Welsh Women’s Aid in previous years into one new grant scheme. Welsh Women’s Aid now has one source for direct Assembly funding, and this is within the Communities Directorate, which has policy responsibility for domestic violence and violence against women. We will consider ways to fund initiatives on domestic violence again during the next budget planning round.

I have also asked for a working group on domestic violence and violence against women to be set up. This group will include Assembly officials from the Communities Directorate, NHS Wales, the crime reduction unit, and education, housing and social care policy departments, along with representatives from outside organisations such as the police, local government, the health service and voluntary bodies such as Welsh Women’s Aid. The main purpose of this group is to develop a comprehensive strategy for Wales, covering the criminal justice, health, social welfare, child protection, education and equality aspects of domestic violence and violence against women. I have invited nominated representatives of organisations to be members, and the group’s first meeting will be held shortly.

I have also agreed in principle to host an inter-governmental conference on domestic violence in Cardiff late this year. This is being considered as a result of a cross-border liaison group set up in 2000 to develop inter-country initiatives on crime-related issues. This includes representatives from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Wales. Ireland’s Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform hosted a conference on domestic violence in Dublin last December. In view of its success, another conference will be held and, by hosting it, we will provide the opportunity to raise the profile of the issue of domestic violence in Wales.

This statement highlights my commitment to tackling this problem in Wales. The Welsh Assembly Government, with the help of experts from other agencies, will develop more integrated policies in this regard in the future and provide a lead to the people of Wales in tackling this disturbing problem.

Domestic violence or abuse can occur in any relationship and against any person, whether male, female, young or old. It is good to hear that that is being recognised now and that work is being done to counter it because it causes the victims severe problems. As you stated, on average, 49 women a day contact Welsh Women’s Aid. That emphasises the important work that Welsh Women’s Aid does. You have responsibility for that. I am glad that that has been clarified because there has been confusion. Traditionally, Welsh Women’s Aid tended to be funded through housing sources and it is good to see its funding being brought under one budget stream. That needed to be done. However, do you acknowledge that groups such as Welsh Women’s Aid are greatly concerned about their future funding, even though you have committed to one budget stream? Traditionally, much of the funding for such groups comes through section 180 arrangements, as I said the other day. After 2002-03, that will not be available to them. They were told to apply for transitional housing benefit to meet their support charges. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities told us on Tuesday that she would not pay for those support charges. Will those support charges be funded from the budget line to support Welsh Women’s Aid, and will the funding be enough?

I am sure that you are aware that Welsh Women’s Aid is currently drawing up a national strategy. It estimates the cost of simply supporting the current domestic abuse support services as £21 million. Are you satisfied that the £679,000 for 2002-03, decreasing to £582,000 in 2003-04, will be enough to support existing domestic abuse support services? Can you also clarify whether that £679,000 is supposed to support the core services of Welsh Women’s Aid nationally, and if so, how its local groups, which are unable to access money for their support charges, will keep going over the coming years?

Much work has been done over many years to tackle domestic violence. Unfortunately, it has often been fragmented and hidden and that is why it is so important that we have a strategy, which is what we are taking forward through this working group. I have talked about the importance of streamlining funding and provisions for domestic violence within the new grant-funding stream from this financial year onwards. For example, it is £496,000 for this financial year, £449,000 in 2003-04 and £449,000 in 2004-05. That funding is going to Welsh Women’s Aid, BAWSO and other important women’s aid groups under section 28 of the National Health Service Act 1977 and section 180 of the Housing Act 1996. I hope that that core support for Welsh Women’s Aid gives you confidence.

Issues related to the supported housing revenue grant budget fall under the portfolio of Edwina Hart, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities. The transitional arrangements for projects receiving shrug funding—as we call it—are being considered and discussed. It is important that we have established a working group and have a strategy that the Welsh Assembly Government is taking forward, not only to safeguard funding, but to develop the strategic approach to counteract domestic abuse.

Research on domestic violence shows, yet again, that it is a symptom of the continuing social inequality faced by women. We must accept that women experience far more domestic violence than men, although men are also reporting cases of violence. As you mentioned, there are many aspects to this issue. We need to consider education, for example. Will you agree to work closely with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to ensure that young people’s education reflects the need for girls to have high expectations for their lives and not to accept domestic violence as the norm? More importantly, will you also ensure that boys learn, through a proactive curriculum, that equality between boys and girls is crucial to modern life, so that we begin to break the cycle of attitudes and behaviour early on?

There will be a representative from the training and education department on the working group. I will work closely with my colleague, Jane Davidson, on this. Schools have an important role to play in teaching children to respect others and in preparing them for the responsibilities of adult life. We will take that issue into account in the working group and strategy.

I pay tribute to your work over many years to alleviate domestic violence. It is not surprising that you brought this matter to our attention. It is appropriate that we consider the issue of domestic violence as a whole. However, we realise that, unfortunately, it is often violence against women. It is appropriate that your statement focused on that. Do you agree that the voluntary sector has a crucial role to play? It is leading the way in establishing best practice and offering services that alleviate domestic violence and help to prevent it. The voluntary sector’s involvement will be crucial. Will you join me in congratulating the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children for its innovative, direct, stark and distressing television advertisement, which illustrates violence against children? That advertisement’s core message is that when violence occurs in the home, it is often heard and known about in the neighbourhood. People should not take the attitude that was perhaps taken previously, that whatever happened in a family’s home was not for those who were not members of that family to discuss. It is an important matter to address. The charity has financed a television campaign. Many people criticise charities for doing that, but it is a highly innovative and effective advertisement and the type of action that we need to take as part of a comprehensive campaign against domestic violence.

Thank you for your remarks, David. I helped to establish the first Women’s Aid refuge in Wales over 25 years ago. It is sad that we have to discuss in the Chamber today the need for more support and funding for women who are subjected to violence. You have drawn attention to children’s needs in that respect. Children are not only drawn into the domestic violence that may be primarily affecting women, but may also experience violence in the family in general. You also noted the NSPCC’s hard work. Its advertising campaigns are hard-hitting and some people might find them distasteful. However, they are hard-hitting because we need to face up to the reality of that violence. I am pleased that the crime reduction programme funding for domestic violence projects includes, for example, money for Pembrokeshire child protection work; Merthyr Tydfil Women’s Aid; the Cardiff Women’s Safety Unit; Cardiff Multi-service Approach; and Powys Rape Victim Support. Many voluntary organisations are involved in this field and we need to give their work a higher profile and more recognition.

Thank you for this statement and for the initiatives you announced. I welcome the measures in relation to funding for Women’s Aid, and the measures to improve protection for children. However, as you have highlighted, responsibility for some of the key agencies that come into contact with women who have experienced domestic violence has not been devolved to the Assembly. The foremost of these, of course, is the police, which has made great strides in recent years to improve the way in which they deal with women. However, improvements could still be made. Women’s Aid groups feel that legislation, such as the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, needs to be implemented more forcefully by the police. Magistrates are also key. Too often they are reluctant, when imposing injunctions, to attach powers of arrest to those injunctions to make them meaningful. Through your work with the working group, which is welcome, and through your contact with UK Government Ministers, will you try to influence some of the other non-devolved bodies?

This relates to Edwina Hart’s work as Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities. She has responsibility for overseeing the Assembly’s crime reduction unit, working with the police, and for considering the wider UK responsibilities that we need to raise and address with Ministers. We work together closely on this. It is the Minister’s responsibility to work with the police, but the working group will include a police representative. It is important that it will also involve Welsh Women’s Aid, BAWSO and other organisations at the sharp end. We need to influence policy as a result of the experience of the organisations that will be sitting around the table with us.

I declare an interest as a patron of Brecknock Women’s Aid. I welcome your statement, which draws attention to what is often a taboo subject. It breaks down the stigma that many victims feel when they are subject to domestic violence. I also welcome the recent message of support you sent to the Powys forum, the recent launch of which was attended by the Assembly’s crime reduction officer. Representatives of the voluntary sector, statutory agencies and the police came together to share best practice to ensure that we in Powys adopt a concerted approach to ending the problem of domestic violence.

I welcome the simplification of funding streams for Welsh Women’s Aid. However, will simpler methods of funding be available to voluntary groups that work at a regional and local level? In developing your strategy, will you build on the good work of the manual made available to NHS staff, and consider a priority for funding training for individuals who could, through their work, come into contact with women and children who are experiencing domestic violence? A horrific incident in my constituency involved a woman who had approached a local housing office, only to be asked by staff to leave because they were frightened that her violent partner would come to cause problems there. It is difficult for staff who have to work with people in distressing circumstances. Supporting staff and addressing their training needs in this regard would be of benefit to all concerned.

The resource packs, the information and the guidelines are good, and have taken us forward. However, unless we provide training and support, they may remain on shelves and not be used in the way that we would wish. That will be an important part of the strategy. Although we are streamlining funding, we need to consider the gaps in our support of national and regional organisations at the sharp end of the provision of care, accommodation and safety. This will also be part of the strategic group’s remit. It is crucial that we consider examples of good practice, and much good practice is pioneered by the police, the health service, local government and through the area child protection committees. We must take that forward and learn from it through this strategy for Wales.

I welcome these initiatives, which will go a long way towards helping people who often suffer in silence, because they are afraid of further repercussions and violence against their children. I pay tribute to David Melding for raising the issue of violence against children in a domestic setting, which many of us do not perhaps think of automatically. However, I still have a problem with the term ‘domestic violence’. Do you think that we will ever change that term? It seems to me that there is a perception that it is not quite as serious as grievous bodily harm or aggravated assault. I believe that it is worse than either of those forms of assault, because it is hidden and sustained over a long period. I do not know whether you feel strongly about that; do you feel that it has a connotation of not being quite as serious as being beaten up in the street, for example?

There has been a major change over the last 25 years. We have moved from a time when domestic violence was not recognised to having legislation relating to civil action. Yesterday, we discussed this in relation to legislation on homelessness. Domestic violence is being recognised as an issue. In terms of criminal justice, and recognising the criminal nature of domestic violence, it is important that the crime reduction unit, the police and the criminal justice system are more fully engaged because, for a woman to take action requires the backing and support of the whole criminal justice system. That has always been a difficulty, as well as the problems that Kirsty mentioned of staff who have to support women and children suffering from domestic violence, not having the understanding and support to know how to handle it. That often results in women not coming forward and breaking the chain of domestic violence. This issue is overdue for discussion by the Assembly. We in Wales can take action. We have the infrastructure and the people working at the sharp end. There are too many victims in Wales; we must address this issue as a whole and with our colleagues in the UK Government.

I congratulate you on your long commitment to this issue. I remember that, when I was a solicitor dealing with criminal law, great efforts were made to change the perceptions of the police, the courts and so on, and to get them to take this matter more seriously. Some progress has been made, but much is still to be done. This initiative will do much to change attitudes. On that subject, could we do more to move towards outlawing the smacking of children? That would send out an important message and it is important in the context of domestic violence against children. I hesitate to raise this next point—although Christine Chapman mentioned it; I do not know your feelings on this, Jane—but I know of some nasty cases of domestic violence towards men. I would not want to detract from the overwhelming problem, which is violence against women, but we should not ignore the fact that there are some nasty cases of domestic violence against men and our responses must deal with that problem also.

As I said in my opening remarks, there is violence in all kinds of relationships and we must recognise that. Though the vast majority comprises violence against women, violence against men is also an issue. The serious problem of violence against children is also at the forefront of our concerns. There are organisations working on that issue and it is also an issue for the police. However, we must recognise that the majority of violence in the world is against women and children, and we must focus our attention on that today.

On the evening of the International Women’s Day, I joined the Cwm Cynon Women’s Aid in the march for better protection for women and children. I learned some startling facts from people who had endured domestic assaults. The one statistic that sticks out in my mind is that, on average, some 39 assaults occur before a woman flees domestic violence. In the main, that is because of an attempt to keep the family together. We must treat domestic violence as a serious criminal act.

Will you speak with the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities regarding the section 180 funding? Earlier this week, we discussed the Supporting People programme, but there is a gap in your understanding of that section, given what the legislation states.

I have already responded to that point, which Janet raised. We are considering the issue of streamlining funding, and that is being done in consultation with all the relevant bodies.

While the Minister has acknowledged that there is some domestic violence towards men, she says that it is not a serious problem. How does she know that it is not a serious problem when she does not have any data? Earlier, she stated how difficult it is for women to come forward and say that they are victims of domestic violence. How much more difficult is it for men to come forward and say that they are victims of domestic violence? Although collating data is difficult, will the Minister make an effort to do so on domestic violence against men and then take appropriate action?

For men, or anybody, to be in a situation of fear of violence in a relationship is a serious issue and I acknowledge that. We need statistics to be able to support people in that situation and to raise awareness of the silence on and lack of recognition of, as you state, this issue for vulnerable men. I undertake to see whether there is statistical evidence on that issue.

The partnership agreement of October 2000 included a commitment to establish, before the end of the Assembly’s first term, an independent commission on the powers and electoral arrangements of the National Assembly to ensure that it is able to operate in the best interests of the people of Wales. I am pleased to make a preliminary announcement today to take this matter forward. I have invited Lord Richard of Ammanford to chair the commission and I am delighted to say that he has accepted the invitation. Ivor Richard was born and raised in Ammanford and attended school in Llanelli. He was called to the Bar in 1955 and has since been a member of the House of Commons, a Government Minister, the UK permanent representative at the United Nations, a Commissioner of the European Economic Community, chair of the Rhodesia conference in 1976, a member of the Shadow Cabinet as Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords between 1992 and 1997, and a member of the Cabinet as Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords between 1997 and 1998. That is not a bad curriculum vitae. Lord Richard is an eminent lawyer and parliamentarian with an understanding and experience of government in many parts of the world. He will bring to this commission both an independence of mind and the ability to lead a team that can evaluate all the issues arising from the first full term of the Assembly’s operations and consider whether there is evidence that changes could make the Assembly better able to deliver what Wales needs.

The broad purpose of the commission is defined in the partnership agreement. I will discuss with Lord Richard and others, including party leaders in the Assembly, the commission’s precise terms of reference and mode of operation. On the appointment of the other members of the commission, its total membership should not exceed 10. There will be consultation on membership with the political parties represented in the Assembly and I expect four members of the commission to emerge from such consultation. The rest will be appointed through advertisement under the Nolan-Neill rules. I have agreed with Lord Richard that the commission will be expected to begin its work in the summer of this year as soon as the appointment process is complete. It will report in the autumn of 2003.

Nid yw’n newydd i chi nac i unrhyw un arall yn y Cynulliad bod Plaid Cymru yn ystyried bod y ffordd ymlaen i’r Cynulliad yn glir. Yr ydym am i’r Cynulliad gael pwerau deddfu a phwerau i amrywio trethi ar sail model Senedd yr Alban. Credwn hefyd bod angen diddymu’r syniad o gorff corfforaethol a sicrhau bod gwahaniaeth clir rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r corff sy’n deddfu. Yr unig gwestiwn yw pa bwerau ychwanegol a ddylai ddod i’r Cynulliad, yn ogystal â’r rhai sydd yn cael eu trafod ar hyn o bryd ar faterion megis yr heddlu a rheilffyrdd. Yr wyf yn sicr bod mwyafrif Aelodau’r Cynulliad o blaid cael pwerau deddfu a threthu. Dylem sicrhau bod dyheadau’r mwyafrif hwnnw yn cael eu cyflawni.

Deallwn pam y bu ichi sefydlu’r comisiwn annibynnol fel rhan o’r cytundeb clymbleidiol rhyngoch a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae’n debyg nad oedd yn bosibl ichi ar y pryd gael undod barn o fewn eich plaid ym mae Caerdydd ac yn San Steffan. Er bod mwyafrif o’ch Aelodau Cynulliad o blaid symud ymlaen, mae’n bosibl nad yw rhannau eraill o’r Blaid Lafur yr un mor frwd. Deallwn felly’r angen i sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf nad yr un fydd tynged y comisiwn annibynnol hwn â’r ymchwiliad ar etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Rhoddwyd cylch gorchwyl i’r ymchwiliad hwnnw, ond penderfynodd y Blaid Lafur yn ei chynhadledd fis Mawrth beidio â newid y drefn i ethol i lywodraeth leol. Gobeithiaf na wnewch yr un peth â’r comisiwn annibynnol—hynny yw, dod i benderfyniad cyn i’r comisiwn gyhoeddi ei gasgliadau.

Gan ichi wneud y cyhoeddiad hwn, gobeithiwn y bydd y broses yn symud ymlaen yn fuan. Derbyniwn y cyhoeddiad heddiw a dymunwn yn dda i Ivor Richard yn y gwaith pwysig hwn. Oherwydd pwysigrwydd y gwaith, rhaid inni ofyn rhai cwestiynau ynglŷn â’r broses. Fel yr awgrymasoch, mae’n bwysig inni ystyried cylch gorchwyl y comisiwn. Nid wyf yn sicr fod yr hyn a nodir yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yr un peth â’r hyn a nodir yn eich datganiad heddiw. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried y geiriad. Dywedasoch yn y cytundeb partneriaeth y byddech yn ystyried pwerau a threfniadau etholiadol y Cynulliad ac, ymysg materion eraill, ehangu cyfranoldeb yng nghyfansoddiad y Cynulliad. Hoffem gael cadarnhad y bydd popeth a oedd yn gynwysedig yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yn rhan o gylch gorchwyl y comisiwn annibynnol hwn. Yr ydym yn fodlon cyfrannu i’r drafodaeth ar y cylch gorchwyl.

Y mater pwysig arall a godaf yw’r panel y byddwch yn ei sefydlu i ystyried aelodau’r comisiwn i’w penodi dan reolau Nolan-Neill. Yn eich barn chi, beth fydd natur aelodaeth y panel a fydd yn gwneud penodiadau o dan y rheolau hynny?

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Diolch am ysbryd cydweithredol eich ymateb, Ieuan. Fe atebaf y cwestiwn olaf yn gyntaf. O ran y panel a fyddai’n gwneud y penodiadau cyhoeddus yn ôl rheolau Nolan-Neill, yr ydym eisiau glynu mor agos â phosibl at yr egwyddorion a ddefnyddir yn y Cynulliad wrth benodi cadeirydd neu aelod o gwango. Ni ellir dilyn yr un drefn yn union gan mai nid Pwyllgor Pwnc fydd yn penodi’r bobl i ffurfio’r panel. Gwneir hynny gan banel a fydd yn cynnwys Aelodau o’r meinciau cefn, ond nid oes Pwyllgor Pwnc perthnasol i enwebu aelodau i fod ar y panel. Rhaid inni drafod sut y gallwn gael cynrychiolwyr o’r pleidiau eraill mewn modd sy’n cyfateb â’r drefn benodi arferol. Mae’r ewyllys yn bodoli i’w wneud yn yr un modd â phe byddem yn penodi cadeirydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, er enghraifft. O ran y cylch gwaith, yr ydym yn hapus i drafod gydag arweinyddion pleidiau’r Cynulliad ac Ivor Richard er mwyn sefydlu cylch gwaith erbyn bod y broses benodi wedi dod i ben, rhyw ddeufis o heddiw, dyweder.

O ran y ffaith nad wyf wedi ailadrodd rhai geiriau heddiw, nid yw’n golygu dim heblaw y ffaith fy mod yn trafod y mater gan ddefnyddio llai o eiriau heddiw nag sydd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth. Mae popeth sydd yn cyfeirio at y syniad hwn yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yn parhau i fod yn berthnasol i waith y comisiwn o ran sefydlu’r cylch gorchwyl. Nid ydym am fynd yn rhy bell o’r geiriad, ond nid oes rhaid ailadrodd yr un geiriau yn union er mwyn darbwyllo pobl nad oes cynllwyn.

O ran y pwyntiau mwy cyffredinol a godoch, Ieuan, mae’n bwysig nad oes neb yn mynegi ymlaen llaw yr hyn y maent am ei gael o’r comisiwn. Yr ydym am i’r comisiwn fod yn annibynnol, gyda meddwl agored wrth edrych ar y ffeithiau a’r dystiolaeth, gan ddod â’r argymhellion i’r Cynulliad nesaf yn ystod ei chwe mis cyntaf. Ar ôl hynny, aiff i’r broses wleidyddol o lunio maniffestos gogyfer ag etholiad cyffredinol San Steffan. Pe byddai argymhellion a fyddai angen deddfwriaeth gynradd, byddai’n rhaid iddynt ymddangos mewn maniffestos yn ystod etholiad cyffredinol nesaf San Steffan yn 2005 neu 2006.

I welcome your announcement this morning, Rhodri, first, by supporting the principle of the commission and secondly, by congratulating Ivor Richard on his appointment. He is an able and experienced Welsh politician who is committed to devolution. I am sure that everybody will respect his independence and ability to do the task ahead of him. However, there are difficulties in handling this matter because, as you rightly say, it is the product of the agreement that you have with the Liberal Democrats. However, as an Assembly, we have never had the opportunity of debating either the partnership agreement or the idea, timing or remit of the commission. It does not restart the process on a particularly sound note when we are charging an independent commission with the opportunity of considering these wide issues when we have not had the opportunity of having even the most cursory of debates on them. Secondly, we have the passing disadvantage of having to face the electorate in some 15 months’ time on the basis of saying, ‘vote for us, and after the election, we will tell you what we think about the future of our own institution.’ I would have thought that if the principle of a commission is so valuable, the process could have been started when you made the deal with the Liberal Democrats some 18 months ago. The commission could have done its work, we could have had the debate, the political parties in Wales could have considered their views, and we could have given the people of Wales the choice in the next Assembly elections. I listened with interest to your response to Ieuan on the question of manifestos for the general election in 2005 or 2006. However, do not let anybody believe that general elections in Wales or anywhere else are fought on the basis of constitutional change: they will be fought on the big issues. There is no prospect of a meaningful debate in Wales on these matters if they are to be subsumed within a general election.

I welcome the principle of the commission. I believe it will result—however the process goes—in the conveying of substantial powers of primary legislation to the National Assembly for Wales, and I welcome that. Ivor Richard will do a good job, but I ask for an assurance that once the final arrangements are in place for the commission, but before it begins its work, you will come to this Assembly with a full report and allow us to have a full debate in Government time on the commission, its remit and the nature of its work.

That would seem to be wholly appropriate, Ron. I think that the right time for that would be when the membership has been set up, the commission is ready to commence its work and we have draft terms of reference. It should then come before the Assembly for a vote and, more importantly perhaps, a full discussion, so that everyone gets their thoughts off their chest before the commission begins its work. I hope that it will work independently of us but before it starts it needs to know what the Assembly thinks across the board. That should not be in the spirit of us trying to instruct the commission, because we are not delegating powers to it, but asking it to do a job on our behalf because it can be done much more easily in combination. That is why we have split the appointments process in two, if you like: so that as well as politicians we have experts, perhaps, appointed through Nolan-Neill rules. Those people could be representatives of the citizenry, or people with great expertise in constitutional law, the Whitehall machine, how we operate in Wales; I do not know. This other half of the membership—about four or five people—could represent both the citizenry and expertise. I hope that it is the right balance to enable the commission to do its job. However, it is not a matter of us delegating powers to the commission. It will report back to us with recommendations. If those recommendations require a change in primary legislation, it is, inevitably, not a matter for us. We have always accepted that any change in our powers is not a matter for us. However, there would be a much better chance of getting us additional powers if that was what the commission, and the new Assembly elected in May 2003, thought was right. It has always been evident that any proposed change would have to go to Whitehall and Westminster for consideration, because we do not have the powers to change our founding legislation.

I will comment first on the appointment of Ivor Richard. He clearly has considerable clout in Westminster and Whitehall. We recognise that and that will be useful. However, he can scarcely to be said to be independent in the party sense, given his past. He has a distinguished record, but it is essentially a Labour Party record. To that extent it is perhaps regrettable that we do not have a truly independent chairman, who is independent of all political parties. However, we will see how he performs in the role. He has considerable clout, but I give that health warning. I know that you have knowledge and experience of him in Europe, First Minister, but it is important that he is seen to operate independently.

Having heard the leader of Plaid Cymru speak, it is important that the Welsh Conservatives participate in this process. Ieuan Wyn Jones said that a majority of Members are in favour of primary legislative powers for the Assembly. If that is true, it is all the more important that we participate, because there is not a majority in Wales in favour of such powers for the Assembly. We will put this case forcefully. This body needs to ensure that we deliver more effectively within the terms of the referendum, when the people of Wales made their decision, albeit narrowly, on how we operate. Well, there are splits in other parties, certainly in the Labour Party; we know that Alun Pugh has a different view from that of the Cabinet. However, if we were running the Assembly we would do things differently. We would not have announced the future of the Wales European Centre by means of a ministerial statement. We would have held a debate on it. It is important that this institution is able to walk before there is any question of it running. At the moment there is evidence that it cannot even crawl; decisions are taken without reference to the Assembly. Therefore, we will participate and it is important that we do so. We will participate in agreeing the remit. However, bear in mind that when people voted for the National Assembly, they voted narrowly in favour of it. There is little or no evidence that people want legislative or tax-raising powers for the Assembly. They want us to deliver services now within our current powers.

Some of your points were controversial, Nick, but I think that it will be accepted that some of your propositions should be tested by the commission. The proposition about effective delivery is important, and it should be tested. The issue about walking before you run is extremely important. You would hear that at supermarket checkouts, on factory floors and so on, in discussions on the Assembly anywhere in Wales. I am grateful for those comments, and regardless of whether I agree with them, I would be amazed if the commission, in its 18 months of life, did not test those propositions. They are vital to it.

I do not entirely accept your points about Ivor Richard. I am glad that you did not express strong dissent about his appointment. However, you noted that he is a Labour Party supporter, which is accurate. I believe that he has shown the requisite degree of independence from the Government. It is now three years or more since he left the UK Cabinet. I believe that he is halfway between being 100 per cent Labour Government loyalist, never departing from the party line, and an independent who is outside the party. He is the right kind of person in terms of having clout in Whitehall and Westminster given that many of the recommendations need to work. Requesting transfers of functions or primary legislative powers means that someone must relinquish power and that someone else must gain it: power that Whitehall and Westminster gives up is gained by the Assembly. Experience and clout in Whitehall and Westminster is needed as well as knowledge of Wales.

You kindly mentioned the fact that I knew Ivor well during the period when he was a European Community commissioner and I was the head of the European Community Office in Wales. That is when I first met Ivor, got to know him well and developed a considerable respect for his diplomatic and negotiating skills. His experience on HMS Tiger with Ian Smith, at the United Nations, and within and outside Government makes him a quite unique figure. He is a figure similar to Ronnie Waterhouse, who conducted the Waterhouse inquiry, from Holywell in north Wales and Gareth Williams from Mostyn. They may come from small villages or towns in Wales such as Ammanford, Mostyn or Holywell, but they have shown that they can survive and prosper within the legal, constitutional and governmental world. That is why Ivor is an outstandingly good choice.

I welcome your statement today because, as you have said, this issue was a key feature of the partnership agreement between our parties, which my party is particularly keen to see and which is important to the people of Wales. The initiative that you have announced today is probably the most important constitutional initiative since the referendum and establishment of the National Assembly for Wales. It will take us further in a direction in which we can conduct a proper and solid debate on these issues across Wales. This is the beginning of a process which many, probably a majority, in the Chamber support. We know of Members from all parties who have expressed views supporting an attempt to sort out the Assembly’s legislative powers. I am pleased that the leader of the Welsh Conservatives has said that he wants to engage positively in this debate because it is important that there is a broad challenge for all politicians to deal with the current arrangements. Most Members accept that the current arrangements are not satisfactory and that they need to be amended. However, the commission must take the discussion beyond the Chamber. It must also engage with the broader social and civic life of Wales.

The Assembly’s powers are not only limited, they have no consistency. It was drawn to my attention today that the important issue of the criteria for locating speed cameras in Wales is not determined by the National Assembly or by its Government but by Stephen Byers. We do not have the same control over the eye test regime in Wales as we have over the dental regime. These matters have vexed us over recent years. The commission now has the opportunity to straighten out the zig-zag line of our legislative settlement, to test the issue of the Assembly’s size, how it proportionally represents the people of Wales, and its ability to do the job that the people of Wales expects. Members from all parties have expressed views on those issues for change.

A challenge exists for everyone in Wales and all those who want to see the devolution settlement move forward. That means that Members from all parties need to work to ensure that the case for change, if we believe that it exists, is conveyed as resolutely and completely as possible. There is a challenge for all those in Wales who are serious about devolution to ensure that the case, which I believe is absolute, is eventually put to Whitehall and Westminster in a robust and practical way, demonstrating widespread support throughout Wales. I ask you, Rhodri, to take this forward with all pace, to ensure that the commission gets underway and engages fully with political, civil and social life in Wales, so that the changes that many of us expect will be settled in place immediately the new Assembly term begins.

You are right to say that this will not work unless we engage the citizenry in Wales. That is why I have split the appointment process, to be done partially through soundings and consultation between Assembly parties, and partially by opening it up to public appointments, which may throw up citizens or experts who are famous professors of constitutional law. I do not know what the case will be, as they will come through the public appointment process in an independent way. As soon as the appointment process is over and the commission is up and running in the summer and the autumn, how to engage the citizenry will be a matter for the commission itself. I will not determine its work programme in advance; the commission must decide on that in the summer and get on with it, and report back in the autumn of 2003.

You used a good phrase, as did Nick in a slightly different way, in asking whether there is a case for change. If there is a case, what is it and how should it be tested? How do we ensure that, when politicians say that there is a case for change, the citizens are not talking a different language? That is what the commission will have to test. I do not want to over-commit the Assembly in advance by saying what we think its conclusions should be in 18 months’ time. There is no point in asking Ivor Richard and his appointed colleagues to conduct an inquiry if we already know what the answer will be. We must give the commission the opportunity to get on with its work and report back to our successor body in the autumn of next year.

I welcome the establishment of this commission. I also welcome the appointment of its chair. I have worked with Lord Richard and know that his CV is very distinguished, particularly in relation to my work with him in his former role as a UN ambassador and a European commissioner. I respect him greatly and know that he will strive vigorously to act in a non-partisan manner, which is essential to the authority of this commission. This is a wise and encouraging appointment.

I hope that the commission will be charged with aiming to strengthen the British constitution in any of the recommendations that it decides to make, and that its aim will be to strike a greater balance in the constitution. Therefore, I hope that its terms of reference will allow the commission to consider our relations with, and the perception of, Westminster, as to the workings of devolution generally in Wales, and to look to the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly to see how those institutions have, through their primary legislative powers, added to, or detracted from, the unity of the British constitution.

I also hope that the commission will be allowed to take a wide range of evidence across Wales, which will be important in local communities, and in England and in other parts of the United Kingdom. Will it be possible for other residents of England—obviously, Ivor lives in England—to become commissioners? I am thinking, for example, of top constitutional lawyers. It may be appropriate to allow such people to apply to become commissioners, as it would add a valuable insight.

Will you give a reassurance that, if the commission decides that further powers are necessary—let us not beat about the bush in saying that that will mean some form of primary law-making power—any such recommendations, if adopted by the Assembly, will be the subject of a referendum? As the Assembly was endorsed by a referendum of the people of Wales, will the commission consider how any development could be possible unless it receives another endorsement through a Wales-wide referendum?

It would be a matter for the commission to recommend a further referendum, and then for us—or our successors, if we are not here—to consider in October 2003. We do not want to over-commit on that now. You made an important point that the greater the change, the greater the likelihood that you would see a referendum as being required. That is par for the course. The issue of law-making powers may or may not require a referendum. It would depend on how that would be viewed in October 2003, not in April 2002. You raised an interesting point about whether an address in England would disqualify people from applying for appointment through the public appointments unit procedure for the commission’s four or five other Members and those in the political soundings process. That is not a rule that we apply in the public appointments procedure. People from Wales who work in England may apply, or people with unique experience may be needed. It would depend on who the process threw up. I would not want to depart from established practice on that front.

This issue of taking evidence in England is interesting. I am certainly not charging Ivor Richard with progressing devolution in England. The implications for England are a matter for the commission, if it considers that to be important to complete the job. I have no presuppositions about not taking evidence in England, but that is a matter for the commission. It is not even part of the terms of reference. It is perhaps too detailed a question for us to discuss.

I welcome, and endorse, your remarks in commending the choice of Ivor Richard. I had forgotten that your previous work with the United Nations Association would have brought you into contact with him.

Rhodri, this statement is a wise step that has a realistic timetable. However, the Welsh Assembly Government has recently put forward some excellent Bills on audit, transport, housing and common land, and I am concerned that they will not see the light of day because they will not secure a place in the Westminster log jam. Ivor Richard is an excellent appointment, who has a great deal of experience from Rhodesia. Plaid Cymru might want a unilateral declaration of independence, but I do not and neither do the vast majority of the people of Wales.

If this open-minded and independent commission concludes that this unsatisfactory state of affairs needs to be changed, will the Welsh Assembly Government ensure that this report does not gather dust?

I can assure you that the report will not gather dust. I cannot say what the outcome will be, but I can guarantee that it will not gather dust if I have anything to do with it—that is up to the electors. We may all be out of office in October 2003; we could have a clean sweep of the incumbents, as has been known to happen in the political process.

You made an interesting point about Ivor’s experience in Rhodesia and UDI. I remember him telling me that, when he was a European commissioner, he had dinner, on the instructions of the British Government, with South African Prime Minister Vorster to see if he could help bring UDI to an end. At the dining table at his house in Cape Town, Vorster deliberately placed Ivor in a chair where he could see Robin Island in the distance through the window so that he could think about Nelson Mandela and the other inmates. People who have such unique experiences are priceless assets in considering constitutional change.