Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mercher 16 Hydref 2002

Wednesday 16 October 2002

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:21

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog CyllidQuestions on Local Government to the Finance Minister
    1. 3Timau Gweithredu ar GyffuriauDrug Action Teams
    2. 5Cynlluniau PFIPFI Schemes
    3. 6Arolygu Llywodraeth LeolLocal Government Inspection
    4. 9Adroddiad Cymdeithas y PlantThe Children’s Society Report
    5. 11Amodau GwaithWorking Conditions
    6. 13Diogelwch CymunedauSafety in Communities
  2. 14Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr AmgylcheddQuestions to the Minister for Environment
    1. 14Cadw Glannau Afonydd yn Lân o SbwrielKeeping Riverbanks Free of Rubbish
    2. 16Cynllun Trafnidiaeth WerddGreen Transport Plan
    3. 19Cynlluniau Datblygu UnedolUnitary Development Plans
    4. 21Compostio CartrefHome Composting
    5. 22Polisi CynllunioPlanning Policy
    6. 24Llwybrau Diogel i’r YsgolSafe Routes to School Initiative
  3. 26Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 27Deddf Addysg 2002The Education Act 2002 9 o bleidleisiau9 votes
  5. 74Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar TGCh yng Nghymru WledigThe Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s Report on ICT in Rural Wales 1 bleidlais1 vote
  6. 87Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 87Rhoi Cleifion yn GyntafPutting Patients First

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion3900DerbyniwydAdopted
Deddf Addysg 2002The Education Act 2002
Gwelliant 1Amendment 19045GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 29045GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 314040GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 481431GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 5Amendment 514039GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 6Amendment 69045GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 7Amendment 724030GwrthodwydRejected
Cynnig NDM1172Motion NDM117231149DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NNDM1174Motion NNDM11745400DerbyniwydAdopted
Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar TGCh yng Nghymru WledigThe Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s Report on ICT in Rural Wales
Cynnig NDM1173Motion NDM11733400DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog Cyllid

Questions on Local Government to the Finance Minister

Timau Gweithredu ar Gyffuriau

Drug Action Teams

C1 David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Q1 David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 3

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’r timau gweithredu ar gyffuriau ynghylch eu dyfodol? (OAQ19403)

What discussions has the Minister had with drug action teams regarding their future? (OAQ19403)

Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 3

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Drug and alcohol action teams are invited to provide written responses to the recent public consultation on the future structure of DAATs. All the responses have been carefully analysed and I am now in a position to announce the results of the consultation exercise. I have decided that the existing DAATs will be abolished and an equivalent strategic level of co-ordination will be established based on the four police areas and will be delivered by Assembly staff based in those four areas. The 22 crime and disorder partnerships will be responsibe for local action teams, which will be encouraged to embrace community safety partnerships. I will take steps to strengthen support within the Assembly to help tackle the problems of substance misuse in Wales and I will issue a written statement to all Members outlining these proposals in detail this afternoon.

Gwahoddir timau gweithredu ar gyffuriau ac alcohol i rhoi ymatebion ysgrifenedig i’r ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus diweddar ar strwythur y timau yn y dyfodol. Dadansoddwyd pob ymateb yn ofalus ac yr wyf yn awr yn gallu cyhoeddi canlyniadau’r ymgynghori. Penderfynais y bydd y timau gweithredu ar Gyffuriau ac Alcohol presennol yn cael eu diddymu ac y caiff lefel strategol gyfatebol o gydlynu ei sefydlu ym mhob un o’r pedair ardal heddlu ac fe’u cyflawnir gan staff a leolir yn y Cynulliad yn y pedair ardal hynny. Bydd y 22 o bartneriaethau troseddau ac anhrefn yn gyfrifol am dimau gweithredu lleol, a anogir i groesawu partneriaethau diogelwch cymunedol. Byddaf yn cymryd camau i gryfhau cefnogaeth o fewn y Cynulliad i gynorthwyo’r gwaith o fynd i’r afael â phroblemau camddefnyddio sylweddau yng Nghymru a byddaf yn cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig i bob Aelod yn amlinellu’r cynigion hyn yn fanwl y prynhawn hwn.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 3

Felly, cytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol bod trefn ranbarthol y timau gweithredu ar alcohol a chyffuriau yn parhau. Beth fydd yn digwydd i’r arbenigedd sydd yn bresennol yng ngweinyddiaeth y timau hyn? A fydd ysgrifenyddiaeth y timau yn parhau?

Therefore, you agree that the preservation of the regional structure of the DAATs is essential. What will happen to the expertise of the DAATs administration? Will the teams’ secretariat continue?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 3

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

We will use all the current expertise in the new structure. However, it is important that we co-ordinate our activities in this regard. I will also consider the work of the Assembly’s substance misuse branch, which is being integrated into the crime reduction unit. The crime reduction unit will be renamed the community safety unit to reflect its new responsibilities.

Byddwn yn defnyddio’r holl arbenigedd cyfredol yn y strwythur newydd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydlynu ein gweithgareddau yn y cyd-destun hwn. Byddaf hefyd yn ystyried gwaith cangen camddefnyddio sylweddau y Cynulliad, sy’n cael ei integreiddio i’r uned lleihau troseddau. Bydd yr uned lleihau troseddau yn cael ei hailenwi yn uned diogelwch cymunedol er mwyn adlewyrchu ei gyfrifoldebau newydd.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 4

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Will you join me in commending the work of the Abercynon drug and alcohol counselling team? It offers help, advice, support and counselling to substance misusers and their families in Cynon Valley. Do you agree that there is room for community support organisations that can make vital contributions to the fight against substance misuse? What assurances can you give that such community groups will continue to be involved in such campaigns in the future?

A ymunwch â mi i ganmol gwaith y tîm cynghori ar gyffuriau ac alcohol yn Abercynon? Mae’n cynnig cyngor, cymorth a gwasanaeth cynghori i gamddefnyddwyr sylweddau a’u teuluoedd yng Nghwm Cynon. A gytunwch fod lle i sefydliadau cymorth cymunedol a all wneud cyfraniadau allweddol yn y frwydr yn erbyn camddefnyddio sylweddau? Pa sicrwydd a allwch ei roi y bydd grwpiau cymunedol o’r fath yn parhau i fod yn rhan o ymgyrchoedd o’r fath yn y dyfodol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 4

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

The involvement of community groups is essential because they comprise people taking responsibility for their communities and lives. We should do all that we can to encourage that. The development of the new structures that I have outlined will strengthen that. I am determined to strengthen the use of community groups like this one across Wales to provide the type of services that people require. I am currently reviewing all the structures across Wales in terms of rehabilitation and treatment and I hope to make announcements on these in the near future. I am concerned to ensure that we continue to fund excellent projects and provide this type of support.

Mae cyfranogiad grwpiau cymunedol yn hanfodol gan eu bod yn cynnwys pobl sy’n cymryd cyfrifoldeb dros eu cymunedau a’u bywydau. Dylem wneud cymaint ag y gallwn i annog hynny. Bydd datblygu’r strwythurau newydd a amlinellais yn cryfhau hynny. Yr wyf yn benderfynol o gryfhau’r defnydd o grwpiau cymunedol fel hwn ledled Cymru er mwyn darparu’r math o wasanaethau y bydd eu hangen ar bobl. Yr wyf ar hyn o bryd yn adolygu’r holl strwythurau ledled Cymru yng nghyd-destun adfer a thriniaeth a gobeithiaf wneud cyhoeddiadau ar y rhain yn y dyfodol agos. Yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau ein bod yn parhau i ariannu prosiectau rhagorol a rhoi’r math hwn o gymorth.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 4

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Do you agree that financial support should always be available to drug action teams and to people who finally admit that they have a problem and need treatment? We should be able to provide that treatment immediately.

A gytunwch y dylai cymorth ariannol fod ar gael bob amser i dimau gweithredu ar gyffuriau ac i bobl sy’n cyfaddef o’r diwedd fod problem ganddynt a bod angen triniaeth arnynt? Dylem fod yn gallu darparu’r driniaeth honno ar unwaith.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 4

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

There is a problem with the provision of treatment across Wales, which was raised in the Local Government and Housing Committee today. It is essential that treatment is available when people admit to their problems. We must also recognise that it is not always successful the first time. We must be realistic about that. After taking initial action, people often slip back into their old ways and support must be given a second time. Access to treatment will be foremost in my mind when dealing with the policy agenda in Wales.

Ceir problem o ran darparu triniaeth ar draws Cymru, a godwyd yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai heddiw. Mae’n hanfodol bod triniaeth ar gael i bobl sy’n cyfaddef bod problemau ganddynt. Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd na fydd yn llwyddiannus bob amser y tro cyntaf. Rhaid inni fod yn realistig ynglŷn â hynny. Ar ôl cymryd camau cychwynnol, mae pobl yn aml yn llithro’n ôl i’w hen ffyrdd a rhaid rhoi cymorth drachefn. Bydd mynediad i driniaeth flaenaf ar fy meddwl wrth ymdrin â’r agenda bolisi yng Nghymru.

Cynlluniau PFI

PFI Schemes

Q2 Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 5

C2 Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Will the Minister make a statement on any guidance that she has issued to local authorities on the funding of private finance initiative schemes? (OAQ19399)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar unrhyw ganllawiau y mae wedi’u cyhoeddi i’r awdurdodau lleol ar gyllido cynlluniau’r fenter cyllid preifat? (OAQ19399)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 5

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I have not issued new guidance to local authorities on the funding of PFI schemes.

Ni chyhoeddais arweiniad newydd i awdurdodau lleol ar ariannu cynlluniau PFI.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 5

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Will the Minister tell us why she is so reluctant to advise local authorities and other bodies on being open and transparent about the full cost of PFI schemes? It is clear that PFI schemes already in the public domain are horrendously expensive when compared with the cost of public sector funding. Will she review her policy and ask all local authorities and public bodies, including the Assembly, to provide information on the full cost of PFI schemes, including an outline of how much will be paid over the whole period of a contract? Does she think that that would be in the spirit of the open government that Rhodri Morgan continuously espouses?

A ddywed y Gweinidog wrthym pam ei bod mor amharod i gynghori awdurdodau lleol a chyrff eraill ynghylch bod yn agored a thryloyw am gostau llawn cynlluniau PFI? Mae’n amlwg bod cynlluniau PFI sydd eisoes yn hysbys i’r cyhoedd yn ddychrynllyd o ddrud o’u cymharu â chost cyllid cyhoeddus. A wnaiff hi adolygu ei pholisi a gofyn i bob awdurdod lleol a chorff cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys y Cynulliad, i ddarparu gwybodaeth am gostau llawn cynlluniau PFI, gan gynnwys amlinelliad o faint a delir yn ystod cyfnod llawn y contract? A gred y byddai hynny yn ysbryd y llywodraeth agored y mae Rhodri Morgan yn ei harddel yn barhaus?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 5

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I believe in the policy of open government. I have responded in an open and transparent way by providing details on our website of the PFI projects with which the Assembly is involved. I am always willing to consider what further information could be made available, provided that we acknowledge the issue of commercial sensitivity.

Credaf mewn dilyn yr egwyddor o lywodraeth agored. Ymatebais mewn ffordd agored a thryloyw drwy roi manylion ar ein gwefan am y prosiectau PFI y mae’r Cynulliad yn rhan ohonynt. Yr wyf yn barod bob amser i ystyried pa wybodaeth arall y gellid ei rhyddhau, cyhyd â’n bod yn cydnabod materion sy’n ymwneud â sensitifrwydd masnachol.

William Graham spoken in English p. 5

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Do you agree that standard regulation may well be required to monitor the procurement of PFI contracts? Would you also confirm that they will continue to be used wherever they are shown to be effective and to provide value for money?

A gytunwch y gallai gwir fod angen rheoleiddio safonol er mwyn monitro’r gwaith o gaffael contractau PFI? A fuasech hefyd yn cadarnhau y byddant yn parhau i gael eu defnyddio lle bynnag y bo tystiolaeth eu bod yn effeithiol ac yn rhoi gwerth am arian?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 5

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

The problem of ensuring that PFI contracts provide proper value for money has been raised with me previously. There has been concern about how the early contracts came to fruition, as you have mentioned previously. It is important that we consider how contracts are managed and that guidelines are available. We will continue to take a pragmatic approach to the use of PFI in Wales.

Cafodd y broblem o sicrhau bod contractau PFI yn rhoi gwerth priodol am arian ei dwyn i’m sylw o’r blaen. Bu pryder ynghylch y modd y gwireddwyd y contractau cynnar, fel y soniasoch yn gynharach. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried y modd y caiff contractau eu rheoli a bod canllawiau ar gael. Byddwn yn parhau i gymryd ymagwedd bragmatig tuag at ddefnyddio PFI yng Nghymru.

Arolygu Llywodraeth Leol

Local Government Inspection

Q3 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 6

C3 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Will the Minister make a statement on inspection regimes for local government? (OAQ19451)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar weithdrefnau arolygu ar gyfer llywodraeth leol? (OAQ19451)

Q6 Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 6

C6 Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Will the Minister make a statement on inspection systems for local government? (OAQ19452)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y systemau arolygu ar gyfer llywodraeth leol? (OAQ19452)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 6

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I have no direct responsibility for local government inspection regimes, as they are independently established by law.

Nid oes cyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol gennyf am weithdrefnau arolygu llywodraeth leol, oherwydd cânt eu sefydlu’n annibynnol yn ôl y gyfraith.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 6

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I believe that we should encourage a more proactive stance within local government. In particular, local authorities should tell us how much local produce and products they purchase, as that would assist the local economy. Will you take an active role in that, and encourage the development of inspection regimes that demonstrate how well local authorities are doing in terms of local purchasing?

Credaf y dylem annog safbwynt fwy rhagweithiol o fewn llywodraeth leol. Yn arbennig, dylai awdurdodau lleol ddweud wrthym faint o gynnyrch lleol y maent yn eu prynu, gan y byddai hynny’n cynorthwyo’r economi leol. A wnewch chi chwarae rôl weithredol yn hynny, ac annog y gwaith o ddatblygu gweithdrefnau arolygu a fydd yn dangos pa mor dda y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ei wneud o ran prynu’n lleol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 6

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

We must recognise that procurement is extremely complex, as it is governed by many European procurement regulations. Some of the issues are currently under consideration, and the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad is aware of that work. I will consider the outcome and, in consultation with other Ministers and the Assembly’s procurement unit, I will determine whether I can assist by discussing local procurement issues with local government. Local government is keen that contracts be issued at an appropriate level so that local procurement is possible. I will take that issue forward with Sir Harry Jones.

Rhaid inni gydnabod bod caffael yn hynod o gymhleth, oherwydd caiff ei reoli gan nifer o reoliadau Ewropeaidd ar gaffael. Caiff rhai o’r materion eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith hwnnw. Byddaf yn ystyried y canlyniad a, thrwy ymgynghori â Gweinidogion eraill ac uned gaffael y Cynulliad, byddaf yn penderfynu pa un a allaf gynorthwyo drwy drafod materion caffael lleol gyda llywodraeth leol. Mae llywodraeth leol yn awyddus i sicrhau bod contractau lleol yn cael eu cyflwyno ar lefel briodol fel bod caffael lleol yn bosibl. Byddaf yn trafod y mater hwnnw ymhellach gyda Syr Harry Jones.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 6

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

You will be aware of the Audit Commission’s and the Social Services Inspectorate for Wales’s damning joint review report on Cardiff County Council’s social services department. The latest joint review report was published today. What will you and the Minister for Health and Social Services do to ensure that local authorities take these reviews seriously and act promptly to implement changes, in order to protect the most vulnerable members of society?

Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad damniol a gynhyrchwyd ar y cyd gan y Comisiwn Archwilio ac Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru wedi’r adolygiad o adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Cyngor Sir Caerdydd. Cyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad diweddaraf o’r fath heddiw. Beth a wnewch chi a’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cymryd yr adolygiadau hyn o ddifrif ac yn gweithredu’n gyflym i wneud newidiadau, er mwyn amddiffyn aelodau mwyaf diamddiffyn cymdeithas?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 7

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

In the main, local government takes its social services responsibilities seriously. Other adverse reports on social services departments have been published, and the local authorities involved have taken the necessary action. The Welsh Local Government Association has already raised with me issues mentioned in the Audit Commission’s general report on social services, and it is eager that those issues be taken forward. It will therefore be pleased about the additional provision for social services in my budget and, more importantly, that Derek Wanless is considering the wider health and social care agenda. I am confident that local government in Wales will deliver in the long term.

Ar y cyfan, mae llywodraeth leol yn cymryd ei gyfrifoldebau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol o ddifrif. Cyhoeddwyd adroddiadau anffafriol eraill ar adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, a chymerodd yr awdurdodau lleol dan sylw y camau angenrheidiol. Mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru eisoes wedi codi materion gyda mi y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn adroddiad cyffredinol y Comisiwn Archwilio ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac mae’n awyddus i’r materion hynny gael eu datblygu. Bydd felly yn falch o glywed am y ddarpariaeth ychwanegol ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn fy nghyllideb, ac, yn bwysicach, fod Derek Wanless yn ystyried yr agenda ehangach ar gyfer iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn gwireddu ei haddewidion yn yr hirdymor.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 7

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

These joint review reports sometimes highlight serious problems. Despite the fact that action plans must be implemented, the public is left wanting further investigation. How will you instigate further investigations into serious issues, and ensure that the resulting reports are published, so that service users know that major problems highlighted in district audit reports, for example, have been addressed?

Ar adegau mae adroddiadau’r adolygiadau ar y cyd yn amlygu problemau difrifol. Er gwaetha’r ffaith bod yn rhaid rho cynlluniau gweithredu ar waith, mae’r cyhoedd yn awyddus i weld ymchwiliadau pellach. Sut y byddwch yn ysgogi ymchwiliadau pellach i faterion difrifol, a sicrhau y caiff adroddiadau canlyniadol eu cyhoeddi, fel y gŵyr defnyddwyr gwasanaeth y bydd problemau difrifol a amlygwyd mewn adroddiadau archwiliad dosbarth, er enghraifft, yn cael sylw?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 7

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

It is important to recognise that a plethora of reports are published by various bodies. The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning is responsible for pursuing issues rasied in reports by Estyn, while the Minister for Health and Social Services pursues issues relating to social services. If any general interest issues are raised in district audit reports, I raise them with the local authority involved. I believe that our current system enables us to deal effectively with public concerns, as will the new system that will be introduced.

Mae’n bwysig cydnabod y caiff amrywiaeth helaeth o adroddiadau eu cyhoeddi gan gyrff amrywiol. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gyfrifol am fynd ar drywydd materion a godwyd mewn adroddiadau gan Estyn, tra bod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn mynd ar drywydd materion sy’n ymwneud â gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Os codir materion o ddiddordeb cyffredinol mewn adroddiadau archwiliad dosbarth, yr wyf yn eu codi gyda’r awdurdod lleol dan sylw. Credaf fod ein system bresennol yn ein galluogi i ymdrin yn effeithiol â phryderon y cyhoedd, yn yr un modd ag y bydd y system newydd a gyflwynir.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 8

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Are you aware that Pembrokeshire County Council has pre-empted the publication of a damning joint review report into its social services department—which may well turn out to be the worst in Wales, as the council spends far less per capita than any other local authority in Wales—by rubbishing the inspectors who carried out the review and declaring that the council will ignore the review’s findings? In the interests of the people of Pembrokeshire, will you confirm that ignoring the findings is not an option, that the council must produce an action plan and that the final sanction could be direct administration of social services in Pembrokeshire by the Assembly or an Assembly-nominated body?

A ydych yn ymwybodol bod Cyngor Sir Penfro wedi taro’n gyntaf cyn cyhoeddiad adroddiad damniol yr adolygiad ar y cyd o’i adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol—a allai’n wir fod y gwaethaf yng Nghymru, gan fod y cyngor yn gwario llawer llai o arian y pen nag unrhyw awdurdod lleol arall yng Nghymru—drwy ddifrïo’r arolygwyr a gynhaliodd yr adolygiad a datgan y bydd y cyngor yn anwybyddu canfyddiadau’r adolygiad? Er budd pobl Sir Benfro, a wnewch chi gadarnhau nad yw anwybyddu’r canfyddiadau yn opsiwn, y dylai’r cyngor gynhyrchu cynllun gweithredu ac y gallai’r gosb derfynol olygu bod gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn Sir Benfro yn cael eu gweinyddu yn uniongyrchol gan y Cynulliad neu gorff a enwebir gan y Cynulliad?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 8

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The reaction of the majority to Audit Commission and Social Services Inspectorate for Wales reports—even hostile reports—is that they have much respect for those responsible for the reports and that they understand why it is necessary for the reports’ recommendations to be taken on board. I am disturbed by the idea that reports are being rubbished in advance, and I will raise that with the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Ymateb y rhan fwyaf i adroddiadau y Comisiwn Archwilio ac Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru—hyd yn oed adroddiadau anffafriol—yw bod ganddynt lawer o barch at y sawl sy’n gyfrifol am yr adroddiadau a’u bod yn deall pam mae angen ystyried argymhellion yr adroddiadau. Yr wyf yn bryderus fod adroddiadau yn cael eu difrïo ymlaen llaw, a byddaf yn codi hynny gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 8

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you agree that Best Value is universally recognised as a bureaucratic failure and will you confirm that it has failed to realise savings greater than the costs of implementing the system?

A gytunwch y cydnabyddir ymhob man fod Gwerth Gorau yn fethiant biwrocrataidd ac a wnewch chi gadarnhau nad yw wedi llwyddo i wneud arbedion sy’n fwy na’r costau o weithredu’r system?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 8

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Best Value is not just about savings, it is about the quality of and delivery of services. Welsh local government was at the forefront of adopting best practice and trying to ensure better service delivery. We also consider the Wales improvement plan to be the way forward for Wales’s 22 local authorities. We will move in that direction with the Audit Commission. I am satisfied that these matters have been dealt with satisfactorily.

Nid yw Gwerth Gorau yn ymwneud ag arbedion yn unig, mae hefyd yn ymwneud ag ansawdd a’r modd y cyflwynir gwasanaethau. Yr oedd llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru ar flaen y gad o ran mabwysiadu arferion gorau a cheisio sicrhau y cyflwynir gwasanaethau yn well. Ystyriwn hefyd mai cynllun gwella Cymru yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen i’r 22 o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn symud i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw ar y cyd â’r Comisiwn Archwilio. Yr wyf yn fodlon yr ymdriniwyd â’r materion hyn yn foddhaol.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 9

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Do you agree that Best Value is much better than the previous Conservative Government’s system of compulsory competitive tendering?

A gytunwch fod Gwerth Gorau yn llawer gwell na system y Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol, sef tendro cystadleuol gorfodol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 9

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

We must all recognise that compulsory competitive tendering was an unmitigated disaster. Best Value has been shown to be a better way forward. However, I think our current approach in Wales is even better.

Dylem oll gydnabod y bu tendro cystadleuol gorfodol yn drychineb llwyr. Dangoswyd bod Gwerth Gorau yn well ffordd ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod ein hymagwedd bresennol yng Nghymru yn well byth.

Adroddiad Cymdeithas y Plant

The Children’s Society Report

Q4 Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 9

C4 Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Following publication of the Children’s Society report on child poverty, can the Minister give examples of how the Assembly’s partnership with Welsh local authorities is helping to reduce child poverty across Wales? (OAQ19414)

Yn sgîl cyhoeddi adroddiad Cymdeithas y Plant ar dlodi plant, a all y Gweinidog roi enghreifftiau o sut y mae partneriaeth y Cynulliad ag awdurdodau lleol Cymru yn helpu i leihau tlodi plant ledled Cymru? (OAQ19414)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 9

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

A key example is the Communities First programme, which attaches particular importance to tackling child poverty. Others programmes include Sure Start, the childcare action plan and children and youth partnership fund, which all address aspects of child poverty. Over £61 million has been made available this year for these children’s programmes and the community purposes budget.

Enghraifft allweddol yw rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, sy’n rhoi pwyslais arbennig ar fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant. Mae rhaglenni eraill yn cynnwys Cychwyn Cadarn, y cynllun gweithredu gofal plant a chronfa bartneriaeth plant a phobl ifanc, sydd i gyd yn ymdrin ag agweddau ar dlodi plant. Rhyddhawyd dros £61 miliwn eleni ar gyfer y rhaglenni plant hyn a’r gyllideb at ddibenion cymunedol.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 9

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Tredegar Park ward in my constituency has the highest percentage—81.7 per cent—of children judged to be living in poverty. That is disgraceful from a national point of view. However, the community has taken full advantage of the schemes you mentioned, particularly the Communities First initiative, whereby much good work is being carried out. Money provided by the Assembly has been spent well by the Dyffryn Community Link, which works across the board to develop youth initiatives, to help senior citizens and, particularly, to work closely with the police on drugs initiatives. It is being cited nationally as an example of best practice.

Mae gan ward Parc Tredegar yn fy etholaeth i y canran uchaf—81.7 y cant—o blant y dyfarnwyd eu bod yn byw mewn tlodi. Mae hynny’n warthus o safbwynt cenedlaethol. Fodd bynnag, manteisiodd y gymuned yn llawn ar y cynlluniau y soniasoch amdanynt, yn arbennig y fenter Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, drwy ba un y gwneir llawer o waith da. Gwariwyd arian a ddarparwyd gan y Cynulliad yn ddoeth gan Gyswllt Cymuned Dyffryn, sy’n gweithio ym mhob maes i ddatblygu mentrau ieuenctid, i helpu yr henoed ac, yn arbennig, i gydweithio’n agos â’r heddlu ar fentrau cyffuriau. Caiff ei gydnabod yn genedlaethol fel enghraifft o arfer gorau.

Dyffryn Community Link is working on a new project, the Nurture Project, for children in early years education. Will you be so kind as to come to Dyffryn, visit that project, see the good work being done and, hopefully, provide more finance for additional initiatives?

Mae Cyswllt Cymuned Dyffryn yn gweithio ar brosiect newydd, y Prosiect Meithrin, ar gyfer plant mewn addysg blynyddoedd cynnar. A fyddech cystal â dod i’r Dyffryn, ymweld â’r project, gweld y gwaith da a wneir a, gobeithio, rhoi rhagor o arian ar gyfer mentrau ychwanegol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 10

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I do not know about providing more finance, but I would be delighted to visit those projects. There are several good projects in the Newport area that have been directly supported from Assembly money.

Wn i ddim am roi rhagor o arian, ond byddwn wrth fy modd yn ymweld â’r prosiectau hynny. Ceir nifer o brosiectau da yn ardal Casnewydd a gynorthwywyd yn uniongyrchol gan arian y Cynulliad.

David Melding spoken in English p. 10

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you agree that one of the best ways to reduce child poverty is to increase the opportunities for work for local people? Encouraging investment in small and medium-sized businesses is often a good way of creating more opportunities for people to return to work or to have a part-time job.

A gytunwch mai un o’r ffyrdd gorau i leihau tlodi plant yw cynyddu’r cyfleodd gwaith ar gyfer pobl leol? Mae annog buddsoddi mewn busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yn aml yn ffordd dda o greu rhagor o gyfleoedd i bobl ddychwelyd i waith neu gael swydd ran-amser.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 10

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I concur. Economic development is at the core of improving conditions for people, and giving them the opportunity to work. That is why it is important that we get our childcare and carers strategies right. All the component parts make a significant difference. We cannot be complacent about the levels of child poverty in this country.

Cytunaf. Mae datblygu economaidd wrth wraidd y broses o wella amodau ar gyfer pobl, a rhoi’r cyfle iddynt weithio. Dyna pam ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau bod ein strategaethau gofal plant a gofalwyr yn gywir. Mae’r holl gydrannau yn gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol. Ni allwn laesu dwylo ynghylch lefelau tlodi plant yn y wlad hon.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 10

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you share my concern that child poverty will be perpetuated if single parents or poor parents are not able to access further and higher education? If so, will you undertake to have an input into the current discussions with Westminster about benefit disregards to the Assembly learning grant in order to inject some urgency into that process?

A rannwch fy mhryder y bydd tlodi plant yn parhau os na all rhieni sengl neu rieni tlawd fanteisio ar addysg bellach ac addysg uwch? Os felly, a wnewch chi addo rhoi mewnbwn i’r trafodaethau presennol â San Steffan ynghylch diystyru budd-daliadau yng nghyd-destun grant dysgu y Cynulliad er mwyn cyflymu’r broses honno?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 10

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I agree that it is important that those groups are able to access further and higher education. It is important that we support them—that is the purpose of the Assembly learning grant. The First Minister adequately dealt with those points yesterday. However, I am aware of Jane Davidson’s and the First Minister’s discussions with colleagues at Westminster and I would be happy to contribute on that issue.

Cytunaf ei bod yn bwysig fod y grwpiau hynny yn gallu manteisio ar addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn eu cynorthwyo—dyna yw diben grant dysgu’r Cynulliad. Ymdriniodd y Prif Weinidog â’r pwyntiau hynny yn ddigonol ddoe. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o drafodaethau Jane Davidson a’r Prif Weinidog â chydweithwyr yn San Steffan a byddwn yn fodlon cyfrannu at y trafodaethau ar y mater hwnnw.

Amodau Gwaith

Working Conditions

C5 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Q5 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 11

A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal trafodaethau yn ddiweddar gyda chynrychiolwyr yr undebau llafur mewn perthynas ag amodau gwaith gweithwyr llywodraeth leol? (OAQ19406)

Has the Minister had any recent discussions with trade union representatives regarding the working conditions of local government employees? (OAQ19406)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Personnel issues are a matter for local authorities as employers, their workforces, and national agreements.

Mater i awdurdodau lleol fel cyflogwyr, eu gweithluoedd, a chytundebau cenedlaethol yw materion yn ymwneud â phersonél.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 11

Croesawaf ateb y Gweinidog i gwestiwn arweinydd yr wrthblaid ar gynlluniau PFI a’i hymrwymiad i graffu ar wir gost y cynlluniau hynny. Fodd bynnag, pa warant all y Gweinidog ei rhoi y caiff amodau gwaith gweithwyr llywodraeth leol eu hanrhydeddu mewn trafodaethau yn ymwneud â’u cytundebau pan gânt eu trosglwyddo i weithio ar gynlluniau PFI?

I welcome the Minister’s reply to the leader of the opposition’s question on PFI schemes and her commitment to scrutinising the true cost of such schemes. However, what guarantee can the Minister give that the working conditions of local government workers are honoured during discussions on their contracts when they are transferred to work on PFI schemes?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Transfer of undertakings (protection of employment) regulations apply to all transfers.

Mae rheoliadau trosglwyddo ymrwymiadau (diogelu cyflogaeth) yn berthnasol i bob trosglwyddiad.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 11

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do you agree that a national fire service strike would put lives at risk across Wales? Do you also agree that there is still time to avoid such a strike? Will you join me in calling on national fire service employers to return to the negotiating table with the Fire Brigades Union with the aim of agreeing on an adequate professional pay level for professional firefighters doing a professional job in our modern, professional fire service?

A gytunwch y byddai streic genedlaethol gan y gwasanaeth tân yn peryglu bywydau ar draws Cymru? A gytunwch fod amser ar gael o hyd i osgoi streic o’r fath? A ymunwch â mi i alw ar gyflogwyr y gwasanaeth tân cenedlaethol i ddychwelyd at y bwrdd trafod gyda’r Undeb Brigâd Dân gyda’r nod o gytuno ar lefel tâl proffesiynol ddigonol ar gyfer ymladdwyr tân sy’n gwneud swydd broffesiynol yn ein gwasanaeth tân proffesiynol, modern?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

This is not a devolved matter. However, I had the opportunity to speak to fire service personnel outside the Assembly building today. The fire service is highly regarded in Wales. The Assembly has done a great deal of work with the fire authorities in considering the safety agenda. I hope that an early resolution will be found to this dispute, as firefighters are sometimes the first to arrive at the scene of an accident or incident.

Nid yw hwn yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Fodd bynnag, cefais y cyfle i siarad â rhai o weithwyr y gwasanaeth tân y tu allan i adeilad y Cynulliad heddiw. Mae’r gwasanaeth tân yn uchel ei barch yng Nghymru. Gwnaeth y Cynulliad gryn dipyn o waith â’r awdurdodau tân o ran ystyried agenda diogelwch. Gobeithiaf y gellir canfod ateb cynnar i’r anghydfod, gan mai ymladdwyr tân yw’r cyntaf, weithiau, i gyrraedd damwain neu ddigwyddiad.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 12

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

You may be aware that Cardiff County Council’s social services department has had dreadful difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff for many years. That position has become progressively worse. Have you met representatives of Cardiff County Council and are you aware of these problems? Have you suggested to the authority how it should try to remedy the situation?

Efallai y byddwch yn ymwybodol fod adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Cyngor Sir Caerdydd wedi cael anawsterau ofnadwy o ran recriwtio a chadw staff ers nifer o flynyddoedd. Gwaethygu y mae’r sefyllfa honno yn raddol. A ydych wedi cyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr o Gyngor Sir Caerdydd ac a ydych yn ymwybodol o’r problemau hyn? A ydych wedi awgrymu i’r awdurdod sut y dylai ddatrys y sefyllfa?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 12

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

My colleague, the Minister for Health and Social Services, Jane Hutt, has met with representatives of Cardiff County Council to discuss various issues arising from the report on this issue.

Cyfarfu fy nghyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt, y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, â chynrychiolwyr o Gyngor Sir Caerdydd i drafod materion amrywiol sy’n deillio o’r adroddiad ar y mater hwn.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 12

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Further to Ann’s point about firefighters, I am sure that all parties would support her call for a return to the negotiating table and for an independent review to be established to consider the work terms and conditions of firefighters. Their work has changed dramatically over the years. Will you support a call for a truly independent review and will you bring pressure to bear with regard to this issue? You said that this is not an Assembly issue, but it has a major impact on services and on the people of Wales. Will you do all that you can to support a call for all parties to return to the negotiating table?

Ymhellach i bwynt Ann ynghylch ymladdwyr tân, yr wyf yn sicr y byddai pob plaid yn cefnogi ei chais i ddychwelyd i’r bwrdd trafod ac i adolygiad annibynnol gael ei gychwyn er mwyn ystyried telerau ac amodau gwaith yr ymladdwyr tân. Newidiodd natur eu gwaith yn sylweddol dros y blynyddoedd. A wnewch chi gefnogi cais am adolygiad gwirioneddol annibynnol ac a wnewch chi roi pwyslais ar y mater hwn? Dywedasoch nad oedd hwn yn fater i’r Cynulliad, ond mae’n cael effaith fawr ar wasanaethau Cymru a’i phobl. A wnewch chi bopeth o fewn eich gallu i gefnogi’r cais i bob carfan ddychwelyd i’r bwrdd trafod?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 12

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The Assembly is not responsible for this issue. Local authorities, through the national bargaining structures, have an interest because of the issues surrounding fire authority members and who is responsible for what. We are aware of some of the issues in this case. We need an early resolution to this dispute because I would not want it to cause problems across Wales.

Nid yw’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol am y mater hwn. Mae gan awdurdodau lleol, drwy gyfrwng y strwythurau bargeinio cenedlaethol, fuddiant oherwydd materion sy’n ymwneud ag aelodau’r awdurdodau tân a phwy sy’n gyfrifol am beth. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o rai o’r materion yn yr achos hwn. Mae arnom angen ateb cynnar i’r anghydfod hwn gan nad wyf am iddo achosi problemau ar draws Cymru.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 12

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 7 (OAQ19466) yn ôl.

Question 7 (OAQ19466) has been withdrawn.

Diogelwch Cymunedau

Safety in Communities

Q8 Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 13

C8 Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

What discussions has the Minister had with the police about measures to improve safety in our communities? (OAQ19394)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’r heddlu mewn perthynas â mesurau i wella diogelwch yn ein cymunedau? (OAQ19394)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 13

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I meet the Welsh chief constables on a regular basis for broad-ranging discussions on crime and community safety issues. I also have quarterly meetings with representatives of the police authorities for Wales. A police superintendent is seconded to the Assembly as a police liaison officer and he is located in the Communities Directorate. Another police secondee will join the safer communities unit shortly.

Yr wyf yn cyfarfod â phrif gwnstabliaid Cymru yn rheolaidd i gael trafodaethau eang eu cwmpas am droseddau a materion sy’n ymwneud â diogelwch cymunedol. Yr wyf hefyd yn cynnal cyfarfodydd chwarterol ag awdurdodau heddlu ar gyfer Cymru. Mae uwch-arolygydd yr heddlu wedi ei secondio i’r Cynulliad fel swyddog cydgysylltu â’r heddlu ac fe’i lleolir yn y Gyfarwyddiaeth Cymunedau. Bydd rhywun arall ar secondiad o’r heddlu yn ymuno â’r uned cymunedau diogelach cyn bo hir.

In my draft budget speech yesterday I announced that a new safer communities fund would be established with provision of £11.2 million over the next three years, which local partnerships can access.

Yn fy araith cyllideb ddrafft ddoe cyhoeddais y byddai cronfa cymunedau diogelach newydd yn cael ei sefydlu gyda darpariaeth o £11.2 miliwn dros y tair blynedd nesaf, y gall partneriaethau lleol ddefnyddio arian ohoni.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 13

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Do you agree that a key element of improving safety is to reduce the social causes of crime by investing in our poorest areas through Communities First and Objective 1? Do you also agree that encouraging people to become more involved and to build more inclusive communities will help to address the causes and the fear of crime and the fear of being victimised for reporting crime to the police?

A gytunwch mai elfen allweddol o wella diogelwch yw lleihau achosion cymdeithasol troseddau drwy fuddsoddi yn ein hardaloedd tlotaf drwy gyfrwng Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ac Amcan 1? A gytunwch hefyd y byddai annog pobl i gyfranogi ac adeiladu cymunedau mwy cynhwysol yn helpu i ymdrin ag achosion a’r ofn o droseddau a’r ofn o gael eich erlid am roi gwybod i’r heddlu am droseddau?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 13

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Some people in certain areas fear that they will be victimised for reporting a crime. We need to tackle that and the other points that you raised. Policing in Wales is currently more satisfactory than ever. There is real community involvement in some of the issues dealt with by the police. We want to encourage greater community involvement so that people take responsibility for their own destinies in conjunction with good policing.

Mae rhai pobl mewn ardaloedd arbennig yn ofni y cânt eu herlid am roi gwybod am drosedd. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hynny a’r pwyntiau eraill y codwyd gennych Mae’r gwasanaeth heddlu yng Nghymru yn fwy boddhaol nag y bu erioed. Ceir cyfranogiad cymunedol gwirioneddol o ran rhai o’r materion y mae’r heddlu yn ymdrin â hwy. Hoffem annog rhagor o gyfranogiad gan y gymuned fel bod pobl yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb am eu dyfodol eu hunain ar y cyd â phlismona da.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 13

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Have you discussed with the Home Secretary whether prisoners should pay some of their income from prison workshops to victim support groups, and the effectiveness of such a proposal in reducing the incidence of reoffending?

A ydych wedi trafod â’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref pa un a ddylai carcharorion dalu rhywfaint o’u hincwm o weithdai carchar i grwpiau cymorth i ddioddefwyr, ac effeithiolrwydd cynnig o’r fath er mwyn lleihau’r nifer sy’n aildroseddu?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 14

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I have not discussed this matter directly with the Home Secretary but, if you wish me to raise the point, I will do so.

Nid wyf wedi trafod y mater hwn yn uniongyrchol â’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref ond fe wnaf hynny os mai dyna yw eich dymuniad.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 14

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

In your reply to Christine Chapman, it was good to hear the Minister refer to your discussions with the police on road safety. Were a local authority to introduce a chaotic road system, possibly funded by an Assembly grant, would the Minister intervene to ask that authority to reconsider its system? Along Ewenny Road in Bridgend, 20 sets of traffic lights have been placed close to a roundabout of 30 feet in diameter. It has led to chaos, and the system is a fatal accident waiting to happen.

Yn eich ateb i Christine Chapman, yr oedd yn dda clywed y Gweinidog yn cyfeirio at eich trafodaethau â’r heddlu ynghylch diogelwch ar y ffordd. Pe bai awdurdod lleol yn cyflwyno system ffyrdd anhrefnus, a ariannwyd gan grant Cynulliad o bosibl, a fyddai’r Gweinidog yn ymyrryd er mwyn gofyn i’r awdurdod ailystyried ei system? Ar hyd Heol Ewenni ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, gosodwyd 20 set o oleuadau traffig yn agos i gylchdro sydd â diamedr o 30 troedfedd. Mae’r sysytem wedi arwain at anhrefn, ac mae damwain angheuol yn debygol o ddigwydd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 14

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I do not think that I referred to road safety in my reply to Christine, unless I made a Freudian slip. I understand your point and will ask my colleague, Sue Essex, to consider the issue.

Ni chredaf imi gyfeirio at ddiogelwch ffyrdd yn fy ateb i Christine, oni bai i mi gyfeiliorni. Deallaf eich pwynt a gofynnaf i’m cyd-Aelod, Sue Essex, i ystyried y mater.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd

Questions to the Minister for Environment

Cadw Glannau Afonydd yn Lân o Sbwriel

Keeping Riverbanks Free of Rubbish

Q1 Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 14

C1 Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

What is the Assembly doing to ensure that local authorities keep riverbanks free of rubbish? (OAQ19502)

Beth mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cadw glannau afonydd yn lân o ran sbwriel? (OAQ19502)

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 14

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

It is important that we do all we can to ensure that the high quality of our rivers is maintained. The Assembly sponsors Keep Wales Tidy, which runs the clean rivers initiative. It has involved over 60 communities in cleaning up and improving local rivers. The Welsh Assembly Government is putting in place a number of measures to tackle litter. Our waste strategy for Wales proposes an increase in the fixed penalty fine for littering and that, in future, local authorities will be able to keep the money from these fines, which should prove an incentive for action.

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gwneud cymaint ag y gallwn i sicrhau y cynhelir safon uchel ein hafonydd. Mae’r Cynulliad yn noddi Cadw Cymru’n Daclus, sy’n gyfrifol am y fenter afonydd glân. Mae wedi cynnwys dros 60 o gymunedau wrth lanhau a gwella afonydd lleol. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn rhoi nifer o fesurau ar waith er mwyn mynd i’r afael â sbwriel. Mae ein strategaeth wastraff i Gymru yn cynnig cynyddu’r ddirwy gosb sefydlog ac y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn y dyfodol yn gallu cadw’r arian o’r dirwyon hyn, a ddylai fod yn ysgogiad i weithredu.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 15

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Unfortunately, neither of those initiatives seems to have reached Brecon. The litter along the Honddu river’s banks spoils what could be an attractive resource for local people and visitors. The local authority and the Environment Agency blame each other for the problem. Will you consider issuing guidance to local authorities on their responsibilities in this regard?

Yn anffodus, ymddengys nad yw’r un o’r mentrau hynny wedi cyrraedd Aberhonddu. Mae’r sbwriel ar hyd glannau afon Honddu yn difetha’r hyn a allai fod yn adnodd deniadol i bobl leol ac ymwelwyr. Mae’r awdurdod lleol ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn beio’i gilydd am y broblem. A wnewch chi ystyried cyhoeddi arweiniad i awdurdodau lleol ynghylch eu cyfrifoldebau o ran hyn?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 15

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

It is sad to hear that that is the case along the Honddu river. It is a beautiful area for local residents and visitors. We have asked local authorities to produce litter action plans. However, in the past, there have been structural issues in terms of how to remove plastics and such materials that attach themselves to trees and shrubs along riverbanks. They are difficult materials to clear. The real answer would be for us all to stop producing this kind of litter. This should go hand in hand with local schemes. I am prepared to bring this problem to the attention of Keep Wales Tidy because I know that its work has been effective.

Mae’n drist clywed mai dyna sy’n digwydd ar hyd afon Honddu. Mae’n ardal hardd i drigolion lleol ac ymwelwyr. Yr ydym wedi gofyn i awdurdodau lleol gynhyrchu cynlluniau gweithredu sbwriel. Fodd bynnag, yn y gorffennol, bu materion strwythurol o ran sut i gael gwared ar blastigau a deunydd o’r fath sy’n glynu at goed a gwrychoedd ar hyd glannau afonydd. Maent yn ddeunyddiau anodd i’w clirio. Y gwir ateb fyddai i bawb roi’r gorau i gynhyrchu’r math hwn o sbwriel. Dylai hyn gydfynd â chynlluniau lleol. Yr wyf yn barod i ddod â’r mater hwn i sylw Cadw Cymru’n Daclus oherwydd gwn fod ei waith yn effeithiol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 15

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

During the summer, I walked from Chepstow to Monmouth along the Wye. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh’.] I walked a bit further actually, on to Hay Bluff, but I will not talk about that. There was not much litter to be seen because the walkers were responsible, as I was, and took their litter home. That is key: if people were to stop dropping litter, we would not have a problem.

Yn ystod yr haf, cerddais o Gas-gwent i Drefynwy, ar hyd afon Gwy. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O’.] Cerddais ychydig ymhellach mewn gwirionedd, ymlaen i Benybegwn, ond ni siaradaf am hynny. Nid oedd llawer o sbwriel i’w weld oherwydd bod y cerddwyr yn gyfrifol, fel ag yr oeddwn i, ac aethant â’u sbwriel adref. Dyna’r ateb: pe bai pobl yn rhoi’r gorau i ollwng sbwriel, ni fyddai problem gennym.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 15

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I am glad to hear that you were out and about enjoying the countryside during the summer, David. This is an issue of individual responsibility. The Wales awareness campaign will be launched this week. It will deal with waste and make people responsible for their own litter. As you saw on your walk, litter bins cannot be found everywhere. Therefore it is an important campaign.

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed eich bod allan yn yr awyr agored yn mwynhau cefn gwlad yn ystod yr haf, David. Mae hwn yn fater o gyfrifoldeb unigol. Caiff ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth Cymru ei lansio yr wythnos hon. Bydd yn ymdrin â gwastraff ac yn gwneud pobl yn gyfrifol am eu sbwriel eu hunain. Fel y gwelsoch ar eich taith gerdded, ni ellir dod o hyd i finiau sbwriel ym mhob man. Mae’n ymgyrch bwysig felly.

Returning to Kirsty’s point, high river flows and flooding levels lead to the emergence of all sorts of detritus. This problem has affected the Taff in the past, despite the responsible behaviour of people who walk along the Taff trail. This is the difficult aspect of the problem, as it is a hellish job to remove the litter that attaches itself to shrubbery. We need several approaches to deal with this issue. I agree that individual awareness and responsibility must be part of the campaign.

I ddychwelyd at bwynt Kirsty, mae llifau afon uchel a lefelau llifogydd yn arwain at ymddangosiad pob math o ddetritws. Bu hon yn broblem a effeithiodd ar afon Taf yn y gorffennol, er gwaethaf ymddygiad cyfrifol pobl sy’n cerdded ar hyd taith Taf. Mae hon yn agwedd anodd ar y broblem, gan ei bod yn waith anodd tu hwnt i dynnu’r sbwriel sy’n glynu at wrychoedd. Mae angen inni fabwysiadu sawl ymagwedd i ymdrin â’r mater hwn. Cytunaf y dylai ymwybyddiaeth a chyfrifoldeb unigol fod yn rhan o’r ymgyrch.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 16

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. The clean rivers initiative is making a valuable contribution to the environment. I have seen its effects in my constituency, where local groups have taken part in the initiative to improve the environment. It is listed in the Assembly’s waste strategy as an example of best practice, and has won 10 of the best awards for environmental work. Will you consider the case for core funding this valuable work so that it can be carried out in the whole of Wales, so that areas such as those mentioned by Kirsty will benefit from the excellent work?

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Mae’r fenter afonydd glân yn gyfraniad amgylcheddol gwerthfawr. Gwelais ei effeithiau yn fy etholaeth, lle mae grwpiau lleol wedi cymryd rhan yn y fenter i wella’r amgylchedd. Fe’i rhestrir yn strategaeth wastraff y Cynulliad fel enghraifft o arfer da, ac enillodd 10 o’r gwobrau gorau am waith amgylcheddol. A wnewch chi ystyried yr achos ar gyfer rhoi arian craidd i’r gwaith gwerthfawr hwn fel y gellir ei gynnal ledled Cymru, fel bod ardaloedd megis y rhai y soniodd Kirsty amdanynt yn elwa ar y gwaith rhagorol?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 16

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I am pleased to hear that, because I have been in the Rhondda and seen the work that has been done there. A few years ago I was part of a Prince of Wales Trust judging team. It is excellent work because it involves the community and raises the kind of awareness that David was talking about. Keep Wales Tidy is core funded by the Assembly to do valuable work, and is an important partner in delivering the Wales waste strategy.

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed hynny, gan i mi ymweld â’r Rhondda a gweld y gwaith a wnaethpwyd yno. Ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl yr oeddwn yn rhan o dîm dyfarnu Ymddiriedolaeth Tywysog Cymru. Mae’n waith rhagorol gan ei fod yn cynnwys y gymuned ac yn codi’r math o ymwybyddiaeth y soniodd David amdano. Mae Cadw Cymru’n Daclus yn derbyn arian craidd gan y Cynulliad i wneud gwaith gwerthfawr, ac mae’n bartner pwysig o ran cyflwyno strategaeth wastraff Cymru.

Cynllun Trafnidiaeth Werdd

Green Transport Plan

Q2 Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 16

C2 Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Can the Minister provide a progress report on the Assembly green transport plan? (OAQ19492)

A all y Gweinidog roi adroddiad ar gynnydd cynllun trafnidiaeth werdd y Cynulliad? (OAQ19492)

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 16

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I expect that a draft plan will be published for consultation purposes by the end of December this year. I expect that the final version will be published by spring 2003.

Disgwyliaf y caiff cynllun drafft ei gyhoeddi at ddibenion ymgynghori erbyn diwedd mis Rhagfyr eleni. Disgwyliaf y cyhoeddir fersiwn terfynol erbyn gwanwyn 2003.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 17

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Following yesterday’s draft budget announcement, what additional resources will you put towards this integrated green transport scheme? I want to insist that the Ebbw Vale via Islwyn to Newport passenger railway and integrated service becomes a reality sooner than planned, and at least at the same time as the Ebbw Vale via Islwyn to Cardiff system.

Yn dilyn cyhoeddiad y gyllideb ddrafft ddoe, pa adnoddau ychwanegol a rowch tuag at y cynllun trafnidiaeth werdd integredig hwn? Yr wyf am fynnu bod y gwasanaeth rheilffordd teithwyr a’r gwasanaeth integredig o Lynebwy drwy Islwyn i Gasnewydd yn cael ei wireddu yn gynt nag y’u cynlluniwyd, ac o leiaf ar yr un pryd â’r system o Lynebwy i Gaerdydd drwy Islwyn.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 17

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

On the green transport plan, it is not, essentially, about resources, but about trying to support people to use existing public transport and seeing whether there can be any joint ventures between employers in the bay and Cathays park. On the wider issue of people commuting from various parts of south Wales, not just to our offices but to offices in Cardiff, we hope that the Ebbw Vale railway will enable people who are looking for jobs to look more widely than they do now, and enable access. On planning, it is as I stated the last time we discussed this, which was in Committee, I believe. Those bits of the jigsaw are in place. We cannot speed this up when the necessary structural work must be done on the ground because of health and safety recommendations. I discussed this with the Strategic Rail Authority about an hour ago. That plan is still there, as announced in the statement on Corus last year, and has been reinforced by me. I hope that, in a few years’ time, your constituents, and Peter’s constituents, will have that necessary ready access to Cardiff bay and to Cardiff.

O ran y cynllun trafnidiaeth werdd, nid ydyw, yn ei hanfod, yn ymwneud ag adnoddau, ond am geisio cynorthwyo pobl i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus sy’n bodoli eisoes a gweld pa un a ellid creu mentrau ar y cyd rhwng cyflogwyr yn y bae a pharc Cathays. O ran y mater ehangach sy’n ymwneud â phobl yn cymudo o wahanol rannau o dde Cymru, nid yn unig i’n swyddfeydd ni ond i swyddfeydd yng Nghaerdydd hefyd, gobeithiwn y bydd rheilffordd Glynebwy yn galluogi pobl sy’n chwilio am swyddi i edrych yn ehangach nag y maent ar hyn o bryd, ac yn sicrhau cyfleoedd ehangach. O ran cynllunio, y mae fel ag y dywedais y tro diwethaf inni drafod hyn, sef yn y Pwyllgor, mi gredaf. Mae’r darnau hynny o’r jigsô yn eu lle. Ni allwn gyflymu hyn pan fo raid gwneud y gwaith strwythurol angenrheidiol ar sail argymhellion iechyd a diogelwch. Trafodais hyn â’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol tua awr yn ôl. Mae’r cynllun hwnnw yn dal ar waith, fel ag y cyhoeddwyd yn y datganiad ar Corus y llynedd, ac fe’i atgyfnerthwyd gennyf i. Gobeithaf, mewn ychydig flynyddoedd, y bydd y mynediad parod angenrheidiol hwnnw i fae Caerdydd ac i Gaerdydd ar gael i’ch etholwyr chi, ac etholwyr Peter.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 17

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Returning to the Newport to Ebbw Vale rail link, I have to reply to a great deal of pressure expressed in letters in my postbag, as I believe do many other Assembly Members. Will you confirm that you fully recognise the strength of feeling in Newport, Ebbw Vale and the surrounding areas that the Ebbw Vale passenger rail link to Newport must be established at the same time as the Cardiff link, recognising work, commercial and cultural ties between Newport and Ebbw Vale? This strength of feeling is evident in my postbag, and is reflected in the South Wales Argus campaign and on its letters page.

I ddychwelyd at gyswllt rheilffordd Casnewydd i Lynebwy, mae’n rhaid i mi ymateb i gryn dipyn o bwysau a fynegir mewn llythyron yn fy sach bost, fel ag y mae’n rhaid bod nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gwneud, mi dybiaf. A wnewch chi gadarnhau eich bod yn llawn sylweddoli cryfder y teimladau yng Nghasnewydd, Glynebwy a’r ardaloedd cyfagos y dylid sefydlu’r cyswllt rheilffordd teithwyr i Gasnewydd ar yr un adeg â chyswllt Caerdydd, gan gydnabod y cysylltiadau gwaith, masnachol a diwylliannol sydd rhwng Casnewydd a Glynebwy? Mae cryfder y teimlad yn amlwg o’m sach bost, ac fe’i hadlewyrchir yn ymgyrch y South Wales Argus a’i dudalen lythyron.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 18

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

We all anticipated in the early days that the train would go to Newport. I fully appreciate your residents’ concerns, and we want to ensure that the railway can serve Newport and Cardiff. However, I cannot deliver that improved railway system. All we can do—whether it is the First Minister or myself—is use all our best endeavours. I repeat at every possible opportunity how important that connection is in Newport. Upgrading the Newport signal station will not just open up that route to Newport, but will open up the greater Gwent scheme, which we want to see. Rosemary has raised this regarding Caerleon station. Improving that signal station increases the capacity for what we refer to as greater Gwent, or the transport integration in the Gwent economic region consortium area.

Yr oeddem oll yn rhagweld yn y dyddiau cynnar y byddai’r trên yn mynd i Gasnewydd. Yr wyf yn llawn werthfawrogi pryderon eich trigolion, ac yr ydym am sicrhau y gall y rheilffordd wasanaethu Casnewydd a Chaerdydd. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf gyflwyno’r system rheilffordd well honno. Y cyfan y gallwn ei wneud—y Prif Weinidog neu minnau—yw ymdrechu hyd eithaf ein gallu. Ailadroddaf bob cyfle posibl pa mor bwysig yw’r cysylltiad hwnnw yng Nghasnewydd. Nid dim ond agor y llwybr i Gasnewydd y bydd uwchraddio gorsaf signalau Casnewydd—bydd hefyd yn ehangu cynllun Gwent fwyaf, sef yr hyn yr ydym am ei weld yn digwydd. Mae Rosemary wedi codi hyn mewn perthynas â gorsaf Caerllion. Mae gwella’r orsaf signalau yn cynyddu’r capasiti ar gyfer yr hyn yr ydym yn ei alw yn Went fwyaf, neu ardal consortiwm trafnidiaeth integredig rhanbarth economaidd Gwent.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 18

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Given that liquid petroleum gas offers a cleaner and cheaper fuel alternative for vehicles, can you give an indication of what progress is being made to increase the number of LPG outlets, particularly in north Wales, to facilitate take up?

O gofio bod nwy petrolewm hylif yn cynnig dewis tanwydd amgen glanach a rhatach i gerbydau, a allwch roi syniad ynghylch y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd i gynyddu nifer y lleoedd sy’n gwerthu LPG, yn arbennig yng ngogledd Cymru, er mwyn hwyluso ei ddefnydd?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 18

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

That is a useful point. LPG is becoming increasingly popular, because, as you say, it is cheaper to purchase as it is not taxed and, in terms of petrol consumption, it gives increased mileage. The evidence shows that, in urban areas, the take-up of LPG fuel commercially is good, but, in rural areas, it needs a boost. For those garages that wish to sell it, we support their conversion. I visited such a garage in Trawsfynydd recently, which is an important base for areas in Gwynedd from Bala to Blaenau Ffestiniog. We are encouraging LPG both by financing grants and converting commercial vehicles.

Mae hwnnw’n bwynt defnyddiol. Mae LPG yn dod yn gynyddol boblogaidd, gan ei fod, fel y dywedasoch, yn rhatach i’w brynu ac ni chaiff ei drethu, ac, o ran defnyddio petrol, cewch ragor o filltiroedd. Mewn ardaloedd dinesig, dengys y dystiolaeth fod nifer defnyddwyr tanwydd masnachol LPG yn dda, ond bod angen ei hybu mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Ar gyfer y garejis hynny sy’n dymuno ei werthu, cefnogwn eu trawsnewidiad. Ymwelais â garej o’r fath yn Nhrawsfynydd yn ddiweddar, sy’n ganolfan bwysig i ardaloedd yng Ngwynedd o’r Bala i Flaenau Ffestiniog. Yr ydym yn annog LPG drwy ariannu grantiau ac addasu cerbydau masnachol.

Cynlluniau Datblygu Unedol

Unitary Development Plans

C3 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Q3 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 19

I ba raddau y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cydweithio ag awdurdodau cynllunio lleol i ddatblygu cynlluniau datblygu unedol sy’n cefnogi’r cysyniad o gymunedau cynaliadwy? (OAQ19480)

To what extent has the Assembly Government worked with local planning authorities to develop unitary development plans that support the concept of sustainable communities? (OAQ19480)

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 19

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

‘Planning Policy Wales’ provides the policy lead for unitary development plans to incorporate a sustainable development strategy, and promotes securing sustainable rural communities. It was prepared in full consultation with all local planning authorities in Wales. The Assembly Government has issued a good practice guide to assist local planning authorities in carrying out sustainability appraisals for their unitary development plans, which inform the plan content.

Mae ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’ yn rhoi arweiniad polisi ar gyfer cynlluniau datblygu unedol er mwyn ymgorffori strategaeth datblygiad cynaliadwy, ac mae’n hybu’r gwaith o sicrhau cymunedau gwledig cynaliadwy. Fe’i paratowyd yn dilyn ymgynghoriad llawn â phob awdurdod cynllunio lleol yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad arweiniad arfer da i gynorthwyo awdurdodau cynllunio lleol o ran cynnal gwerthusiadau cynaliadwyedd ar gyfer eu cynlluniau datblygu unedol, sy’n llywio cynnwys y cynllun.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 19

Pam, felly, y bu i Lywodraeth Cymru fynegi ei gwrthwynebiad i ymdrech awdurdod cynllunio Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro i greu cynllun datblygu unedol wedi’i seilio ar y cysyniad o gymunedau cynaliadwy?

Why, then, did the Government of Wales express its objection to Pembrokeshire Coast National Park planning authority’s attempt to create a unitary development plan based on the concept of sustainable communities?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 19

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

We did not object to the concept of sustainable communities; that is fundamental and we promote it. The Pembrokeshire plan provided no evidence in terms of its locals-only policy. When dealing with planning policy on housing, it is important that it is backed up by housing needs assessments and appropriate information. Negotiations are continuing with Pembrokeshire authority—its plan has not been stopped dead. Discussions were held before our letter was sent, and they are continuing now. However, the locals-only issue is difficult.

Ni wnaethom wrthwynebu’r cysyniad o gymunedau cynaliadwy; mae hynny’n sylfaenol ac yr ydym yn ei hybu. Ni ddarparodd cynllun Sir Benfro unrhyw dystiolaeth o ran ei bolisi pobl leol yn unig. Wrth ymdrin â pholisi cynllunio ar dai, mae’n bwysig ei fod yn cael ei ategu gan asesiadau anghenion tai a gwybodaeth briodol. Mae trafodaethau yn parhau gydag awdurdod Sir Benfro—nid ataliwyd ei gynllun yn llwyr. Cynhaliwyd trafodaethau cyn anfon ein llythyr, ac maent yn parhau yn awr. Fodd bynnag, mae’r mater pobl leol yn unig yn anodd.

Our report, ‘Second and Holiday Homes and the Land Use Planning System’ is now available on the web and a seminar was held yesterday, which most Members could not attend. The report’s researchers find that locals-only policies give rise to difficulties in that they have legal implications. However, we are continuing our discussions with Pembrokeshire local planning authority to see whether we can find a way that achieves that sustainability without undermining human rights.

Mae ein hadroddiad ‘Ail Gartrefi a Chartrefi Gwyliau a’r System Cynllunio Defnydd Tir’ bellach ar gael ar y we a chynhaliwyd seminar ddoe, nad oedd y rhan fwyaf o Aelodau yn gallu ei fynychu. Canfu ymchwilwyr yr adroddiad fod polisïau pobl leol yn unig yn creu anawsterau o ran goblygiadau cyfreithiol. Fodd bynnag, mae ein trafodaethau gydag awdurdod cynllunio lleol Sir Benfro yn parhau er mwyn gweld a allwn ganfod ffordd sy’n cyflawni’r cynaliadwyedd hwnnw heb danseilio hawliau dynol.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 20

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Minister, because sustainability, environmental and economic impacts are often highlighted, will you assure us that equal weight will be given to assessing the impact on the community in terms of health, wellbeing and social inclusion?

Weinidog, gan fod effeithiau cynaliadwyedd ac effeithiau amgylcheddol ac economaidd yn cael eu hamlygu’n aml, a wnewch roi sicrwydd inni y rhoddir yr un pwyslais ar asesu’r effaith ar y gymuned o ran iechyd, lles a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 20

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That social aspect is fundamental to sustainable development, and it was interesting to hear about that as we developed our scheme. It is pertinent in Wales because of the links between the environment, the economy and social sustainability; they are intrinsic. We are using sustainable development as a tool to support local authorities in making those judgments. However, much work remains to be done.

Mae’r agwedd gymdeithasol honno yn sylfaenol i ddatblygu cynaliadwy, ac yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed amdani wrth inni ddatblygu ein cynllun. Mae’n berthnasol yng Nghymru oherwydd y cysylltiadau rhwng yr amgylchedd, yr economi a chynaliadwyedd cymdeithasol; maent yn hanfodol. Yr ydym yn defnyddio datblygu cynaliadwy fel dyfais, er mwyn cynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol wrth wneud y dyfarniadau hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd.

To refer back to Rhodri’s question, research on sustainable settlements is ongoing. What does being sustainable mean? In some areas, the Welsh language is an important component, but it also means considering the economy, transport links, medical facilities, environmental quality and having a means of judging those. It means ensuring that communities are interlinked, so that where small communities depend on schools in other communities, they are seen as part of a residential settlement structure, rather than as individual communities.

I gyfeirio’n ôl at gwestiwn Rhodri, mae ymchwil ar aneddiadau cynaliadwy yn parhau. Beth mae bod yn gynaliadwy yn ei olygu? Mewn rhai ardaloedd, mae’r iaith Gymraeg yn elfen bwysig, ond mae hefyd yn golygu ystyried yr economi, cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth, cyfleusterau meddygol, ansawdd yr amgylchedd a meddu ar ddull o ddyfarnu’r rhain. Golyga sicrhau bod cymunedau’n cydgysylltu, fel bod cymunedau bach sy’n dibynnu ar ysgolion mewn cymunedau eraill, yn cael eu hystyried yn rhan o’r strwythur anheddiad preswyl, yn hytrach na chymunedau unigol.

David Davies spoken in English p. 20

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Minister, you talk of consultation with local authorities over their unitary development plans. Why, then, do you require Monmouthshire County Council to set aside large areas of the Usk valley for quarrying? How is that compatible with the principle of sustainable development? Are you prepared to listen to the voice of local people and commit this Welsh Assembly to preserving the Usk valley in its present state for the enjoyment of this and future generations?

Weinidog, soniwch am ymgynghori ag awdurdodau lleol ynghylch eu cynlluniau datblygu unedol. Pam felly eich bod yn gofyn i Gyngor Sir Fynwy neilltuo rhannau helaeth o ddyffryn Wysg ar gyfer chwarelydda? Sut mae hynny’n gydnaws â’r egwyddor o ddatblygu cynaliadwy? A ydych yn barod i wrando ar farn pobl leol ac ymrwymo’r Cynulliad i gadw dyffryn Wysg yn ei gyflwr presennol er mwyn i’r genhedlaeth hon a chenedlaethau’r dyfodol ei fwynhau?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 21

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The original question referred to the development of unitary development plans and a particular policy. The research document, which was produced by a couple of leading researchers, defined areas of resources with a view to protecting them. It did not state that they were going to be developed for quarrying and sand production. I will be producing—and this is why your request is premature—a statement, which will reassure some of your constituents, on the wider issue of aggregates dredging, fairly soon.

Cyfeiriodd y cwestiwn gwreiddiol at ddatblygu cynlluniau datblygu unedol a pholisi arbennig. Diffiniodd y ddogfen ymchwil, a gynhyrchwyd gan ddau ymchwilydd blaenllaw, ardaloedd ag adnoddau, gyda’r bwriad o’u diogelu. Ni ddywedodd eu bod yn mynd i gael eu datblygu at ddibenion chwarelydda a chynhyrchu tywod. Byddaf—a dyna pam bod eich cais yn gynamserol—yn cynhyrchu datganiad, a fydd yn tawelu meddyliau eich etholwyr, ynghylch y mater ehangach sy’n ymwneud â charthu agregau, cyn bo hir.

Compostio Cartref

Home Composting

Q4 Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 21

C4 Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

What is being done to encourage home composting? (OAQ19503)

Beth sy’n cael ei wneud i annog cynlluniau compostio cartref? (OAQ19503)

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 21

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Various initiatives are underway. First, we have set the target for home composting at 5 per cent minimum over the next year and at 40 per cent, with recycling, by the year 2010. We have set a way forward. Secondly, we have given a considerable amount of money to local authorities in Wales to help them make that big change from using landfill sites to recycling and composting. As I said earlier this afternoon, we have launched a Wales waste awareness campaign to try to get the message to people in their communities and in their homes.

Mae amryw o fentrau yn mynd rhagddynt. Yn gyntaf, yr ydym wedi sefydlu’r targed o leiafswm o 5 y cant ar gyfer compostio cartref yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf, a 40 y cant, gydag ailgylchu, erbyn 2010. Yr ydym wedi pennu ffordd ymlaen. Yn ail, yr ydym wedi rhoi swm sylweddol o arian i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i’w helpu i wneud y newid mawr hwnnw o ddefnyddio safleoedd tirlenwi i ailgylchu a chompostio. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach y prynhawn hwn, yr ydym wedi lansio ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth gwastraff Cymru i geisio cyfleu’r neges i bobl yn eu cymunedau a’u cartrefi.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 21

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The Centre for Alternative Technology in Machynlleth and the Brecon Beacons National Park operate good local schemes. What can be done to support these organisations in developing a strategy across mid Wales, and also help Powys County Council with its proposals to develop doorstep collection of garden waste during relevant months of the year?

Mae’r Ganolfan Dechnoleg Amgen ym Machynlleth a Pharc Cenedlaethol Bannau Brycheiniog yn gweithredu cynlluniau lleol da. Beth gellir ei wneud i gynorthwyo’r sefydliadau hyn i ddatblygu strategaeth ar draws y canolbarth, a hefyd i helpu Cyngor Sir Powys gyda’i gynigion i ddatblygu gwasanaeth casglu sbwriel gerddi o ddrws i ddrws yn ystod misoedd perthnasol y flwyddyn?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 21

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I hope that the money that we have given will enable that, because it has been given out to local authorities, in the Wales policy unit and in all kinds of ways. Some lottery funding will also be announced soon. We have been generous in our financial allocations, and I have not had any flack from local authorities, which suggests that they agree that we have been generous. I will be visiting Powys soon to see the results of some of that work on the ground.

Gobeithiaf y bydd yr arian yr ydym wedi ei roi yn galluogi hynny, oherwydd fe’i rhoddwyd i bob awdurdod lleol, yn uned polisi Cymru ac ym mhob math o ffyrdd. Bydd rhywfaint o arian loteri yn cael ei gyhoeddi’n fuan hefyd. Buom yn hael o ran ein dyraniadau ariannol, ac ni dderbyniais feirniadaeth gan awdurdodau lleol, sy’n awgrymu eu bod yn cytuno y buom yn hael. Byddaf yn ymweld â Phowys cyn bo hir i weld canlyniadau rhywfaint o’r gwaith hwnnw ar lefel ymarferol.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 22

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

You referred to the involvement of local authorities and the funding that had been made available. Will you indicate which local authorities have initiated composting schemes and their degree of success?

Yr ydych wedi cyfeirio at gyfranogiad gan awdurdodau lleol a’r arian a ryddhawyd. A wnewch chi roi syniad ynghylch pa awdurdodau lleol a gychwynnodd gynlluniau compostio ac i ba raddau y maent wedi llwyddo?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 22

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I cannot list them now, but I will give you that information. A fair number have initiated the scheme and many of them have also provided free bins. They have all signed up to the target of a 5 per cent minimum for next year, but I will give you a list of the progress so far.

Ni allaf eu rhestru yn awr, ond rhoddaf yr wybodaeth honno ichi. Mae nifer dda wedi cychwyn y cynllun ac mae nifer ohonynt wedi darparu biniau am ddim hefyd. Maent oll wedi cytuno ar darged o 5 y cant o leiaf ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, ond rhoddaf restr ichi o’r cynnydd a wnaed hyd yma.

Polisi Cynllunio

Planning Policy

Q5 Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 22

C5 Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

What measures have been taken to ensure that planning policy contributes to the creation of sustainable communities? (OAQ19481)

Pa gamau sydd wedi cael eu cymryd i sicrhau bod y polisi cynllunio’n cyfrannu at greu cymunedau cynaliadwy? (OAQ19481)

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 22

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

This answer will be similar to that I gave to Rhodri Glyn, if you will bear with me. The Assembly’s ‘Planning Policy Wales’ sets out the framework for sustainable land use planning policy in Wales. It explains the need to consider the relationship between housing, employment locations and transport links in the context of housing land availability. ‘Planning Policy Wales’ makes clear the need for local planning authorities to allocate suitable sites for housing in their development plans, with a view to creating and supporting sustainable communities in which people want to live.

Bydd yr ateb hwn yn debyg i’r un a roddais i Rhodri Glyn, os gwnewch chi fod yn amyneddgar. Mae ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’ y Cynulliad yn amlinellu’r fframwaith ar gyfer y polisi cynllunio i ddefnyddio tir yn gynaliadwy yng Nghymru. Eglura’r angen i ystyried y berthynas rhwng tai, lleoliadau cyflogaeth a chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth yng nghyd-destun tir sydd ar gael ar gyfer tai. Mae ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’ yn egluro’r angen i awdurdodau cynllunio lleol ddyrannu safleoedd addas ar gyfer tai yn eu cynlluniau datblygu, gyda’r bwriad o greu a chynorthwyo cymunedau cynaliadwy y mae pobl yn dymuno byw ynddynt.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 22

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I will pursue the housing theme further. Are you confident that the current technical advice notes allow local authorities to plan effectively for local housing need? If so—and I know that some authorities query that—what are you doing to encourage local authorities to make use of that flexibility to enable young people to continue to live and work in communities such as the Gwendraeth Valley, for example?

Yr wyf am fynd ar drywydd y thema tai ymhellach. A ydych yn hyderus bod y nodiadau cyngor technegol cyfredol yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i gynllunio’n effeithiol ar gyfer angen tai lleol? Os felly—a gwn fod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn amau hynny—beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i annog awdurdodau lleol i ddefnyddio’r hyblygrwydd hwnnw i annog pobl ifanc i fyw a gweithio mewn cymunedau megis Cwm Gwendraeth, er enghraifft?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 23

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The guidance exists not only in terms of planning, but also in terms of housing. I have had discussions with many of the authorities to which I think that you are referring. I am prepared to consider that again to see whether we can do more in terms of interpretation of the guidance for those authorities. However, one of the core issues is for local authorities to conduct proper housing need assessment. That picks up issues of affordability and locality and ensures a much better base for planning policies. People can see that, and it can be tested at a public inquiry. That is the kind of work that must be done. I am aware of the concerns about the interpretation of guidance, and I will be addressing them, and the research on second homes, as I said earlier, in an additional letter to local authorities.

Ceir arweiniad nid yn unig yng nghyd-destun cynllunio, ond hefyd mewn perthynas â thai. Cefais drafodaethau â nifer o’r awdurdodau y credaf eich bod yn cyfeirio atynt. Yr wyf yn barod i ystyried hynny eto er mwyn gweld a allwn wneud mwy o ran dehongli’r arweiniad ar gyfer yr awdurdodau hynny. Fodd bynnag, un o’r materion craidd yw i awdurdodau lleol gynnal asesiad priodol o anghenion tai. Mae hynny’n amlygu materion megis fforddiadwyedd a chymdogaeth ac mae’n sicrhau sail llawer gwell ar gyfer polisïau cynllunio. Gall pobl weld hynny, a gellid ei roi ar brawf mewn ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. Dyna’r math o waith sy’n rhaid ei wneud. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryderon ynghylch dehongli’r arweiniad, a byddaf yn ymdrin â hwy, a’r ymchwil ar ail gartrefi, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mewn llythyr ychwanegol at awdurdodau lleol.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 23

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I know that you are unable to comment on the Welsh Rugby Union Centre at Island Farm, but is it right that local authorities should be able to actively promote a facility or project that directly contravenes their unitary development plan?

Gwn nad ydych yn gallu gwneud sylwadau ar Ganolfan Undeb Rygbi Cymru yn Island Farm, ond a ydyw’n briodol i awdurdodau lleol hybu cyfleuster neu brosiect yn weithredol sy’n mynd yn gwbl groes i’w cynllun datblygu unedol?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 23

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I cannot judge that, but section 54(a) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 states that the primary consideration for development should be in accordance with the development plans.

Ni allaf farnu ar hynny, ond noda adran 54(a) o Ddeddf Cynllun Gwlad a Thref 1990 y dylai’r ystyriaeth bennaf ar gyfer datblygu fod yn unol â’r cynlluniau datblygu.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 23

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Minister, an aspect of planning policy related to sustainability is windfarms. We have previously spoken in private on the commitment for decisions on large windfarms to come before the National Assembly. I am concerned because a decision will soon be made on Strata Florida without any real input from Wales, just as we did not have any input on the Cefn Croes development. Last time we pressed for a public inquiry, but there was not Cabinet support for that. Will you give an assurance that, on Strata Florida, a voice from Wales will be heard, if not through powers being transferred then by means of a public inquiry once the decision is made at Westminster?

Weinidog, agwedd ar bolisi cynllunio sy’n ymwneud â chynaliadwyedd yw ffermydd gwynt. Yr ydym eisoes wedi siarad yn breifat ynghylch yr ymrwymiad i benderfyniadau ar ffermydd gwynt mawr ddod gerbron y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf yn bryderus oherywdd ceir penderfyniad cyn bo hir ynghylch Ystrad Fflur heb unrhyw fewnbwn gwirioneddol o Gymru, yn yr un modd na chawsom roi unrhyw fewnbwn i ddatblygiad Cefn Croes. Y tro diwethaf, bu i ni bwyso am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, ond ni chafwyd cefnogaeth gan y Cabinet i hynny. A rowch sicrwydd, o ran Ystrad Fflur, y clywir llais o Gymru, os nad drwy’r pwerau a drosglwyddwyd yna drwy ymchwiliad cyhoeddus unwaith y gwneir y penderfyniad yn San Steffan?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 24

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

On Cefn Croes, you cannot say that Wales’s voice was not heard. The local authority’s view on the application was heard. Whether you agree with that view or not, it reached Brian Wilson. Also, our submission to him—and we took strong legal advice on what we could and could not say—went through all the arguments and relevant factors. That was sent and informed his decision. That was the situation with regard to Cefn Croes. As to the future, you are right that Members are unanimous—I have not heard anyone argue against this—that powers under the Electricity Act 1989 over 50 MW units ought to come to us. That covers all electricity production, not just windfarms. We are pursuing that matter. The First Minister has had discussions with the Minister of State for Energy and Construction and the Secretary of State, who is pursuing the matter. It is complicated because, although this issue has arisen in relation to windfarms, it must be considered in the context of electricity production as a whole. However, I will keep you informed of progress.

O ran Cefn Croes, ni allwch ddweud na chlywyd llais Cymru. Clywyd barn yr awdurdod lleol am y cais. Pa un a gytunwch â’r farn honno ai peidio, cyrhaeddodd Brian Wilson. Hefyd, yr oedd ein cyflwyniad iddo—a derbyniasom gyngor cyfreithiol cryf am yr hyn y gallem ac na allem ei ddweud—yn mynd drwy’r holl ddadleuon a’r ffactorau perthnasol. Anfonwyd hwnnw a llywiodd ei benderfyniad. Dyna oedd y sefyllfa o ran Cefn Croes. O ran y dyfodol, yr ydych yn gywir i ddweud bod yr Aelodau yn unfrydol—ni chlywais unrhyw un yn dadlau yn erbyn hyn—y dylai pwerau o dan Ddeddf Trydan 1989 dros 50 o unedau MW ddod i ni. Mae hynny’n cwmpasu pob agwedd ar gynhyrchu trydan, ac nid ffermydd gwynt yn unig. Yr ydym yn mynd ar drywydd y mater. Cafodd y Prif Weinidog drafodaethau â’r Gweinidog Gwladol dros Ynni ac Adeiladu a’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, sy’n mynd ar drywydd y mater. Mae’n gymhleth oherwydd, er bod y mater hwn wedi deillio mewn perthynas â ffermydd gwynt, rhaid ei ystyried yng nghyd-destun cynhyrchu trydan yn ei gyfanrwydd. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf wybod ichi am y cynnydd.

Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol

Safe Routes to School Initiative

Q6 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 24

C6 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Will the Minister make a statement on how she measures the success of the Safe Routes to School initiative? (OAQ19437)

A fyddai’r Gweinidog yn rhoi datganiad ar sut y mae’n mesur llwyddiant y fenter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol? (OAQ19437)

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 24

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Local authorities submit monitoring and evaluation reports for each Safe Routes to School scheme that has received Assembly funding. The success of each project can then be judged on the basis of whether there is an increase in walking and cycling to school, reductions in car use and reductions in road casualties. I will arrange a formal evaluation of the initiative at the end of the current three-year funding cycle.

Mae awdurdodau lleol yn cyflwyno adroddiadau monitro a gwerthuso ar gyfer pob menter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol a dderbyniodd arian gan y Cynulliad. Gellir barnu llwyddiant pob prosiect wedyn ar sail pa un a oes cynnydd yn y nifer sy’n cerdded a seiclo i’r ysgol, llai o ddefnydd o geir a llai o anafiadau ar y ffordd. Trefnaf werthusiad ffurfiol o’r fenter ar ddiwedd y cylch ariannu tair blynedd cyfredol.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 24

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

The Minister supported a Safe Routes to School initiative along Ewenny Road in Bridgend. However, any benefits derived from that scheme have been negated by a roundabout that now has 20 sets of traffic lights at about 30 feet apart. Bearing in mind that this was partly funded by the Assembly, will the Minister reconsider this roundabout, as a fatal accident is just waiting to happen there? Unless you see the roundabout for yourself you cannot understand the complexity of the situation and the dangerous increase in accidents since the installation of the traffic lights.

Cefnogodd y Gweinidog fenter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol ar hyd Heol Ewenni ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Fodd bynnag, tanseiliwyd unrhyw fantais o’r cynllun hwnnw gan gylchfan sydd bellach ag 20 set o oleuadau traffig tua 30 troedfedd oddi wrth ei gilydd. O gofio bod y fenter hon wedi ei hariannu’n rhannol gan y Cynulliad, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ailystyried y gylchfan hon, gan y bydd damwain angheuol yn anorfod? Oni bai eich bod yn gweld y gylchfan drosoch eich hun, ni allwch ddirnad cymhlethdod y sefyllfa a’r cynnydd peryglus a fu mewn damweiniau ers gosod y goleuadau traffig.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 25

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I do not know all the details. No money went to that roundabout from the Brynteg Safe Routes to School scheme. However, as I recall, the situation there was dangerous, with many casualties occurring. That Bridgend has taken action is in the interests of all. The matter is a local authority consideration, but I will speak to officials to determine whether they have further information.

Nid yw’r holl fanylion gennyf. Ni roddwyd unrhyw arian tuag at y gylchfan o gynllun Brynteg ar gyfer Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol. Fodd bynnag, fel y cofiaf, yr oedd y sefyllfa yno yn beryglus, gyda nifer yn cael eu hanafu. Mae’r ffaith fod Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr wedi cymryd camau yn fuddiol i bawb. Mater i’r awdurdod lleol i’w ystyried ydyw, ond siaradaf â’r swyddogion er mwyn darganfod pa un a oes ganddynt ragor o wybodaeth.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 25

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Despite that roundabout, Safe Routes to School is a great success across Wales. Will you consider a parallel scheme to provide opportunities for people to walk or cycle to work? You could perhaps call it ‘smart routes to work’.

Er gwaetha’r gylchfan honno, mae Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol yn llwyddiant mawr ledled Cymru. A wnewch chi ystyried cynllun i gyd-fynd â hwn a fydd yn rhoi cyfleodd i bobl gerdded neu seiclo i’r gwaith? Efallai y gallech ei alw yn ‘llwybrau call i’r gwaith’.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 25

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I am always impressed by your phrases. Smart routes to work are important. The five workplace travel co-ordinators—not a title that trips off the tongue, unlike your phrases—are doing important work across Wales and one of them is based in north Wales. They work with large employers in particular, and with health trusts and the private sector to encourage people to do just what you suggested. The combination of that encouragement and the provision of the cycle routes will make a difference.

Mae eich ymadroddion bob amser yn creu argraff arnaf. Mae llwybrau call i’r gwaith yn bwysig. Mae’r pum cydlynydd teithio i’r gweithle—nad yw’n deitl bachog, o’i gymharu â’ch ymadroddion—yn gwneud gwaith pwysig ledled Cymru a lleolir un ohonynt yng ngogledd Cymru. Maent yn gweithio â chyflogwyr mawr yn arbennig, a chydag ymddiriedolaethau iechyd a’r sector preifat i annog pobl i wneud yn union fel yr awgrymasoch. Bydd y cyfuniad o’r anogaeth honno a darparu llwybrau seiclo yn gwneud gwahaniaeth.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 25

Deallaf fod rheolau presennol ar gludiant plant yn dyddio’n ôl at Ddeddf Addysg 1944. Mae llawer wedi newid ers hynny: er enghraifft, nifer y ceir ar y ffyrdd. Mae oedran y plant o dan sylw wedi newid hefyd. Mae’r ddeddf yn ymwneud â phlant rhwng pump ac 16, ond erbyn heddiw mae plant tair a phedair oed yn ogystal â phlant 17 a 18 oed yn teithio i’r ysgol bob dydd. Oni ddylech bellach ailystyried y cynllun Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol a mentrau tebyg a sylweddoli bod angen newid sylfaenol i’r rheolau i gyd-fynd ag amodau heddiw?

I understand that the current rules on the carriage of children date back to the Education Act 1944. Much has changed since then: for example, the number of cars on the road. The ages of the children concerned has also changed. The Act deals with children aged between five and 16, but nowadays three and four-year-olds and 17 to 18-year-olds travel to school daily. Should you not now reconsider the Safe Routes to School scheme and similar initatives and realise that we need a fundamental change in the rules to respond to modern circumstances?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 26

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Responsibility for this issue primarily rests with Jane Davidson as part of her education portfolio, but we have discussed the vexed issue of school transport. The Safe Routes to School initiative is not only for primary school children. The innovative schemes often involve secondary schools, and the clusters of primary schools that feed into them. I went to Newtown recently, where we saw such a scheme working extremely well. Other good examples are the Brynteg school scheme, which we have just mentioned, and that at Sandfields school. Most of the big Safe Routes to School schemes involve secondary schools working with clusters of primary schools. It is not just a matter of a scheme being restricted to one area; such schemes also feed into other areas. I will discuss the regulations with Jane Davidson. I appreciate your background knowledge on this issue, Gareth, and I would be grateful to receive any information you wish to pass on.

Cyfrifoldeb Jane Davidson yn bennaf yw’r mater hwn fel rhan o’i phortffolio addysg, ond yr ydym wedi trafod y mater dyrys sy’n ymwneud â thrafnidiaeth ysgol. Nid yw’r fenter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol ar gyfer disgyblion ysgol gynradd yn unig. Mae’r cynlluniau blaengar yn aml yn cynnwys ysgolion uwchradd, a’r clystyrau o ysgolion cynradd sy’n bwydo i mewn iddynt. Euthum i’r Drenewydd yn ddiweddar, lle gwelsom gynllun o’r fath yn gweithio’n hynod o dda. Mae enghreifftiau da eraill yn cynnwys cynllun ysgol Brynteg, yr ydym newydd sôn amdano, a chynllun ysgol Sandfields. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r cynlluniau Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol yn cynnwys ysgolion uwchradd yn gweithio â chlystyrau o ysgolion cynradd. Nid yw’n ymwneud â chyfyngu cynllun i un ardal; mae cynlluniau o’r fath yn bwydo i mewn i ardaloedd eraill hefyd. Gwnaf drafod y rheoliadau â Jane Davidson. Gwerthfawrogaf eich gwybodaeth gefndirol am y mater hwn, Gareth, a byddaf yn ddiolchgar o dderbyn unrhyw wybodaeth y dymunwch ei throsglwyddo.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 26

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Deddf Addysg 2002

The Education Act 2002

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 27

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I have selected the following amendments to NDM1172: amendments 1, 2, 4 and 6 in the name of Jonathan Morgan, and amendments 3, 5 and 7 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Yr wyf wedi dethol y gwelliannau canlynol i NDM1172: gwelliannau 1, 2, 4 a 6 yn enw Jonathan Morgan, a gwelliannau 3, 5 a 7 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 27

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 28

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 28

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I am pleased to open this debate today, as it fulfils the promise I made last term to debate the Education Act 2002. When the UK Government announced its intention early last year to introduce an Education Bill in autumn 2001, I took stock of the massive programme of support, development and change for education and lifelong learning in Wales. That led to the publication of ‘The Learning Country’ on 5 September 2001, which is our comprehensive education and lifelong learning programme to 2010 in Wales. ‘The Learning Country’ is the first comprehensive strategic statement on education and lifelong learning in Wales, and the first document issued by the National Assembly that paves the way for primary and secondary legislation in this field. That is a notable and distinctive first.

Yr wyf yn falch o agor y ddadl hon heddiw, gan ei bod yn gwireddu’r addewid a wneuthum y tymor diwethaf i drafod Deddf Addysg 2002. Pan gyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y DU ei bwriad yn gynnar y llynedd i gyflwyno Mesur Addysg yn ystod hydref 2001, ystyriais y rhaglen enfawr o gymorth, datblygiad a newid ar gyfer addysg a dysgu gydol oes yng Nghymru. Arweiniodd hynny at gyhoeddi ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ar 5 Medi 2001, sef ein rhaglen addysg a dysgu gydol oes gynhwysfawr hyd at 2010 yng Nghymru. ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yw’r datganiad strategol cynhwysfawr cyntaf ar addysg a dysgu gydol oes yng Nghymru, a’r ddogfen gyntaf a gyhoeddwyd gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol sy’n paratoi’r ffordd ar gyfer deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ac is-ddeddfwriaeth yn y maes hwn. Mae hyn yn enghraifft nodedig a phenodol o dorri tir newydd.

In ‘The Learning Country’, we are ambitious. Our agenda is a strategy for revolutionising education in Wales and for improving educational opportunities for all people, at all times of their lives. Some may say that we are asking a lot of a small nation, but Wales has a huge opportunity to become an internationally renowned learning country, where education and training are of primary importance. ‘The Learning Country’ is a ground-breaking document, made in Wales with the partnership of people across Wales. The response from parents, governors, teachers and other stakeholders in education was overwhelming. We are actively influencing the education agenda across the UK with our innovative made-in-Wales policies. We are putting in place distinctive Welsh policies that are right for us and suit our circumstances. Today’s debate on the Education Act 2002 is a significant step forward towards delivering ‘The Learning Country’ agenda. Our vision is of a country in which we provide education and training that is second to none, where the very young have access to excellent nursery education, and where our children go to excellent schools in fit-for-purpose buildings. We will put learners’ needs first. To do that, we must raise standards across the board and support our practitioners. We must give every child a flying start, and we must provide a more rounded and flexible curriculum. We must enhance social inclusion and remove barriers to learning.

Yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’, yr ydym yn uchelgeisiol. Mae ein hagenda yn strategaeth ar gyfer chwyldroi addysg yng Nghymru a gwella cyfleoedd addysg i bawb, ar bob adeg yn eu bywydau. Efallai y bydd rhai yn dweud ein bod yn gofyn llawer o wlad fach, ond mae gan Gymru gyfle enfawr i ddod yn wlad sy’n dysgu ryngwladol o fri, lle mae addysg a hyfforddiant yn holl bwysig. Mae ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yn ddogfen sy’n torri tir newydd, a wnaed yng Nghymru gyda phartneriaeth pobl ledled Cymru. Mae ymateb rhieni, llywodraethwyr, athrawon a rhanddeiliaid eraill mewn addysg yn aruthrol. Yr ydym wrthi’n dylanwadu ar yr agenda addysg ledled y DU gyda’n polisïau arloesol a luniwyd yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn rhoi polisïau penodol Gymreig ar waith sy’n iawn i ni ac sy’n gweddu i’n hamgylchiadau. Mae dadl heddiw ar Ddeddf Addysg 2002 yn gam mawr tuag at gyflwyno agenda ‘Y Wlad sy’n dysgu’. Gwlad lle y darparwn addysg a hyfforddiant heb ei ail yw ein gweledigaeth, lle y gall plant bach fanteisio ar addysg feithrin ragorol, a lle yr â ein plant i ysgolion rhagorol mewn adeiladau a adeiladwyd i’r pwrpas. Byddwn yn rhoi anghenion dysgwyr yn gyntaf. Er mwyn gwneud hynny, rhaid inni godi safonau yn gyffredinol a chefnogi ein hymarferwyr. Rhaid inni roi cychwyn gwych i bob plentyn, a rhaid inni ddarparu cwricwlwm mwy cyflawn a hyblyg. Rhaid inni wella cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a dileu rhwystrau i ddysgu.

I will highlight a few of the most exciting areas of this agenda, which are supported by this new legislation. We are now going forward with our exciting plans for a foundation curriculum for three to seven-year-olds. That is only happening in Wales. I am determined to get the best start for our youngest children in Wales. If that means a radically different curriculum and far more directed play, then we will have that in Wales. It will be evidence-based. Across Wales, people have told me time and again about the importance of quality special educational needs provision. This is a high priority for me as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. I am delighted at the new opportunities that the Education Act 2002 has given us. We will have regional centres funded by the Assembly and our own SEN tribunal for Wales.

Byddaf yn amlygu rhai o feysydd mwyaf cyffrous yr agenda hon, a ategir gan y ddeddfwriaeth newydd hon. Yr ydym wrthi’n datblygu ein cynlluniau cyffrous ar gyfer cwricwlwm sylfaen i blant rhwng tair a saith mlwydd oed. Nid yw hynny ond yn digwydd yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn benderfynol o roi’r cychwyn gorau i’n plant ieuengaf yng Nghymru. Os yw hynny’n golygu cwricwlwm hollol wahanol a chwarae mwy cyfarwyddol o lawer, yna cawn hynny yng Nghymru. Bydd ar sail tystiolaeth. Ledled Cymru, mae pobl wedi sôn wrthyf dro ar ôl tro am bwysigrwydd darpariaeth anghenion addysgol arbennig o ansawdd. Mae hyn yn flaenoriaeth uchel i mi fel y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Yr wyf wrth fy modd gyda’r cyfleoedd newydd y mae Deddf Addysg 2002 wedi eu rhoi inni. Bydd gennym ganolfannau rhanbarthol wedi eu hariannu gan y Cynulliad a’n tribiwnlys AAA ein hunain i Gymru.

We are actively tackling disaffection and there are Wales-only powers in the Education Act 2002 to create new obligations for primary and secondary schools to continue to improve performance in partnership. The Act includes powers to require the governing bodies of secondary schools and their feeder primary schools to plan together for the transition from key stages 2 to key stage 3. Managing transition effectively is one of the most significant challenges that we face. We are determined to lift standards for 11 to 14-year-olds and are looking innovatively at managing the transition in the best way possible for the learner. Wales-only provisions in the Act will directly benefit school children across Wales.

Yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael ag anfodlonrwydd ac mae pwerau ar gyfer Cymru yn unig yn Neddf Addysg 2002 i’w gwneud yn ofynnol ar ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd i barhau i wella perfformiad mewn partneriaeth. Mae’r Ddeddf yn cynnwys pwerau sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gyrff llywodraethol ysgolion uwchradd a’r ysgolion cynradd sy’n eu bwydo i gynllunio ar y cyd ar gyfer pontio o gyfnod allweddol 2 i gyfnod allweddol 3. Mae rheoli’r pontio yn effeithiol yn un o’r heriau pwysicaf a wynebwn. Yr ydym yn benderfynol o godi safonau ar gyfer plant 11 i 14 mlwydd oed ac edrychwn am ffyrdd arloesol o reoli’r pontio yn y ffordd orau bosibl i’r dysgwr. Bydd plant ysgol ledled Cymru yn elwa’n uniongyrchol ar ddarpariaethau yn y Ddeddf ar gyfer Cymru’n unig.

The budget fora introduced by the Act will provide the opportunity for crucial dialogue between schools and LEAs about school funding and school budgets. In some cases such fora already exist informally in Wales, but establishing their key role is an exciting step forward and a key plank of our partnership agenda. Our commitment to youth participation is supported by a new clause in the Act that will enable us to introduce school councils to engage learners across Wales. Just as important is the establishing of partnership agreements between local authorities and schools across Wales. The Labour party values partnership and its role in bringing our schools and communities closer together. Close partnership working with local education authorities, the teaching profession and the teaching unions, as well as with pupils themselves, is driving forward our school improvement agenda. I welcome these Wales-only provisions in the Act, which further our radical education agenda in Wales.

Bydd y fforymau cyllideb a gyflwynwyd gan y Ddeddf yn rhoi’r cyfle i ysgolion ac AALl gynnal trafodaethau pwysig am ariannu ysgolion a chyllidebau ysgolion. Mewn rhai achosion bodola fforymau o’r fath eisoes yng Nghymru yn anffurfiol, ond mae sefydlu eu rôl allweddol yn gam cyffrous ymlaen ac yn elfen allweddol o agenda ein partneriaeth. Ategir ein hymrwymiad i gyfranogiad ieuenctid gan gymal newydd yn y Ddeddf a fydd yn ein galluogi i gyflwyno cynghorau ysgol i gynnwys dysgwyr ledled Cymru. Mae sefydlu cytundebau partneriaeth rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion ledled Cymru yr un mor bwysig. Gwerthfawroga’r blaid Lafur bartneriaeth a’i rôl i ddod ag ysgolion a chymunedau yn agosach at ei gilydd. Mae gweithio’n agos mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau addysg lleol, y proffesiwn addysgu ac undebau’r athrawon, yn ogystal â chyda’r disgyblion eu hunain, yn llywio ein hagenda gwella ysgolion. Croesawaf y darpariaethau hyn ar gyfer Cymru’n unig yn y Ddeddf, a fydd yn hyrwyddo ein hagenda addysg sylfaenol ymhellach yng Nghymru.

The Act also provides new scope for adjusting provision for 14 to 19-year-olds, which takes account of our distinctive curriculum in Wales. We will shortly be launching our radical plans for 14 to 19-year-olds for even wider consultation, shaped by young people themselves. The Act enables us to bring personal and social education and work-related education to the curriculum in Wales. Wales-only powers for work-related education will have a key role in preparing our young people for the workplace and increasing their knowledge of innovation and entrepreneurship. We fully intend to seize every opportunity that we get to establish Wales as the learning country—a country widely regarded as the best place to learn and teach, and not only in the UK. I have seen wonderful examples of education in my visits to schools across the country during the last few weeks. We are driving our agenda forward and the Act is a major step towards achieving our ambitious aims. These are exciting times for Wales.

Mae’r Ddeddf hefyd yn rhoi cyfle newydd i addasu darpariaeth ar gyfer plant 14 i 19 mlwydd oed, sy’n ystyried ein cwricwlwm penodol yng Nghymru. Cyn bo hir byddwn yn lansio ein cynlluniau radical i blant 14 i 19 mlwydd oed ar gyfer ymgynghori hyd yn oed yn ehangach, wedi ei lunio gan bobl ifanc eu hunain. Galluoga’r Ddeddf inni gyflwyno addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol ac addysg sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith yn y cwricwlwm yng Nghymru. Bydd gan bwerau i Gymru yn unig ar gyfer addysg sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith rôl allweddol wrth baratoi ein pobl ifanc ar gyfer y gweithle a chynyddu eu gwybodaeth am arloesedd ac entrepreneuraeth. Bwriadwn achub ar bob cyfle a gawn i sefydlu Cymru fel y wlad sy’n dysgu—gwlad a ystyrir yn gyffredinol y lle gorau i ddysgu ac addysgu, ac nid yn y DU yn unig. Gwelais enghreifftiau gwych o addysg yn ystod fy ymweliadau ag ysgolion ledled y wlad yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf. Yr ydym yn datblygu ein hagenda ac mae’r Ddeddf yn gam mawr tuag at gyflawni ein nodau uchelgeisiol. Mae’n adeg gyffrous i Gymru.

Several amendments have been tabled, which I will deal with in turn. Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 1 wants us to replace the word ‘welcomes’ with a mundane ‘notes’. Such a reaction would create a rather poor impression of the Assembly’s role and importance. We have set out our vision in ‘The Learning Country’ and successfully achieved our primary legislation aims with strong support from the people in Wales. That outcome is welcome and, accordingly, I ask you to reject amendment 1. On amendment 2, as I have made clear previously, education funding has always been channelled directly through local authorities, which are best placed to make the most suitable decisions. These decisions are made though sensible co-operative partnership, and provisions in the Education Act 2002 take that partnership further by permitting the school budget fora that I outlined, and partnership agreements between local education authorities and schools to clarify responsibilities. Therefore, reject amendment 2 if you want the right partnership between communities and schools.

Cyflwynwyd sawl gwelliant, ac ymdriniaf â hwy yn eu tro. Mae gwelliant 1 Jonathan Morgan am inni roi’r gair dinod ‘nodi’ yn lle’r gair ‘croesawu’. Byddai ymateb o’r fath yn creu argraff eithaf gwael o rôl a phwysigrwydd y Cynulliad. Yr ydym wedi disgrifio ein gweledigaeth yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ac wedi cyflawni ein nodau ar gyfer deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn llwyddiannus gyda chefnogaeth gref pobl Cymru. Croesewir y canlyniad hwnnw ac, yn unol â hynny, gofynnaf ichi wrthod gwelliant 1. O ran gwelliant 2, fel yr eglurais o’r blaen, cafodd cyllid addysg ei sianelu’n uniongyrchol drwy awdurdodau lleol erioed, a hwy sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i wneud y penderfyniadau mwyaf addas. Gwneir y penderfyniadau hyn drwy bartneriaeth gydweithredol synhwyrol, ac mae darpariaethau yn Neddf Addysg 2002 yn mynd â’r bartneriaeth honno ymhellach drwy ganiatáu’r fforymau cyllidebau ysgolion a amlinellais, a chytundebau partneriaeth rhwng awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion i egluro cyfrifoldebau. Felly, gwrthodwch welliant 2 os ydych am gael y bartneriaeth gywir rhwng cymunedau ac ysgolion.

I appreciate the chagrin of Jocelyn Davies’s party, when its new clause 20 to what was then the Education Bill fell at the House of Commons report stage without a vote, because it had no support. Power over teachers’ pay and conditions has not been transferred to the Assembly—‘The Learning Country’ contained no such proposal, and none of the consultation responses sought the transfer of such powers to Wales. No representations have been received from teachers’ unions, local authorities or other bodies on devolving teachers’ pay and conditions to Wales. My commitment to work with the grain of education thinking, not against it, discourages me from introducing what was not called for during consultation. The existing arrangements are strengthened by the statutory consultation requirements under sections 121 and 126 of the Education Act 2002. I also give evidence to the School Teachers’ Review Body. Therefore, I ask you not to support amendment 3.

Deallaf siom plaid Jocelyn Davies, pan fethodd ei chymal 20 newydd i’r Mesur Addysg, fel yr oedd ar y pryd, yn ystod cyfnod adroddiadau Tŷ’r Cyffredin heb bleidlais, gan nad oedd neb yn ei gefnogi. Nid oedd pŵer ynghylch cyflog ac amodau athrawon wedi ei drosglwyddo i’r Cynulliad—nid oedd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yn cynnwys cynnig o’r fath, ac ni ofynnodd un o’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad am drosglwyddo pwerau o’r fath i Gymru. Ni dderbyniwyd unrhyw sylwadau gan undebau’r athrawon, awdurdodau lleol na chyrff eraill ar ddatganoli cyflog ac amodau athrawon i Gymru. Mae fy ymrwymiad i weithio gyda’r meddylfryd addysg, yn hytrach na mynd yn groes iddo, yn fy annog i beidio â chyflwyno’r hyn nas galwyd amdano yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad. Cryfheir y trefniadau presennol gan ofynion yr ymgynghoriad statudol o dan adrannau 121 ac 126 o Ddeddf Addysg 2002. Rhoddaf dystiolaeth hefyd i Gorff Adolygu Athrawon Ysgol. Felly, gofynnaf ichi beidio â chefnogi gwelliant 3.

Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 4 seeks to condemn the Government’s failure to allow appropriate scrutiny of the Bill before Royal Assent. That amendment is both unfair and inaccurate. ‘The Learning Country’ set out our proposals for Wales, including those requiring primary legislation. During the consultation exercise, 15,000 copies were sent out and people still ask for copies, as it is the definitive document for Wales. Respondents to the consultation overwhelmingly endorsed its proposals. I reported to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee on the outcome of ‘The Learning Country’, on the intended provisions for the Bill before its introduction, and on the Bill itself in my Cabinet statement of 27 November 2001. Thereafter, working closely with Wales Office staff and Ministers of the Department for Education and Skills, my officials managed our interests at all the Bill stages in Parliament, and my reports to Committee provided regular updates on its progress. The Bill was also online at all times, together with the official record of its progress. I ask you not to support amendment 4.

Mae gwelliant 4 Jonathan Morgan yn ceisio condemnio methiant y Llywodraeth i ganiatáu i’r Mesur gael ei graffu’n briodol cyn rhoi Cydsyniad Brenhinol. Mae’r gwelliant hwnnw yn annheg ac yn anghywir. Nododd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ein cynigion i Gymru, gan gynnwys y rhai sy’n galw am ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Yn ystod yr ymgynghori, dosbarthwyd 15,000 o gopïau ac mae pobl yn gofyn am gopïau o hyd, gan mai hon yw dogfen ddiffiniol Cymru. Cymeradwywyd y cynigion gan y rhan fwyaf o’r bobl a ymatebodd i’r ymgynghoriad. Cyflwynais adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar ganlyniad ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’, ar ddarpariaethau arfaethedig y Mesur cyn ei gyflwyno, ac ar y Mesur ei hun yn fy natganiad Cabinet ar 27 Tachwedd 2001. Ar ôl hynny, gan gydweithio’n agos â staff Swyddfa Cymru a Gweinidogion yr Adran Addysg a Sgiliau, ymdriniodd fy swyddogion â’n buddiannau ar bob cam o’r Mesur yn y Senedd, a darparodd fy adroddiadau i’r Pwyllgor ddiweddariadau rheolaidd ar ei hynt. Bu’r Mesur ar-lein hefyd drwy gydol yr amser, ynghyd â’r cofnod swyddogol o’i hynt. Gofynnaf ichi beidio â chefnogi gwelliant 4.

My earlier points on Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 2 apply equally to Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 5. Our policy is for comprehensive non-selective education in Wales, which has been strongly endorsed by consultation respondents. Local authorities are best placed to decide the level of resources for local education services, and the funding formulae can now be enhanced by the school budget fora and partnership agreements between LEAs and their schools. Furthermore, I have commissioned an analysis of the funding formulae from the Audit Commission. I ask that amendment 5 be rejected.

Mae fy mhwyntiau cynharach ar welliant 2 Jonathan Morgan yr un mor berthnasol i welliant 5 Jocelyn Davies. Ein polisi ni yw cael addysg gyfun heb elfen o ddethol yng Nghymru, a chymeradwywyd hynny’n gryf gan y bobl a ymatebodd i’r ymgynghoriad. Yr awdurdodau lleol sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benderfynu ar lefel yr adnoddau ar gyfer gwasanaethau addysg lleol, a gall y fformiwlâu cyllido gael eu gwella yn awr gan y fforymau cyllidebau ysgolion a’r cytundebau partneriaeth rhwng awdurdodau addysg lleol a’u hysgolion. At hynny, yr wyf wedi comisiynu dadansoddiad o’r fformiwlâu cyllido gan y Comisiwn Archwilio. Gofynnaf i welliant 5 gael ei wrthod.

David Davies spoken in English p. 33

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I remind the Minister that her Prime Minister, Tony Blair, does not endorse comprehensive education and thinks that it has been a failure. Rather than allowing LEAs to decide what is best for children, does the Minister not agree that their parents might know better?

Hoffwn atgoffa’r Gweinidog nad yw ei Phrif Weinidog, Tony Blair, yn cymeradwyo addysg gyfun a chred iddi fod yn fethiant. Yn hytrach na chaniatáu i awdurdodau addysg lleol benderfynu beth sydd orau i blant, oni chytuna’r Gweinidog y gallai eu rhieni wybod yn well?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 33

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

As usual, I continue to endorse the comprehensive principle—the Assembly has always endorsed it strongly—and I will continue to show you that, under that principle, schools in Wales are performing better than schools across the border. I believe that parents in Wales will be happy with that.

Fel arfer, parhaf i gymeradwyo’r egwyddor gyfun—mae’r Cynulliad wedi ei chymeradwyo erioed—a byddaf yn parhau i ddangos i chi, yn unol â’r egwyddor honno, fod ysgolion yng Nghymru yn perfformio’n well nag ysgolion ar draws y ffin. Credaf y bydd rhieni yng Nghymru yn fodlon ar hynny.

The Assembly Government will have more powers under the Education Act 2002, which is what we set out to achieve. However, they will not be exercised at the expense of schools and headteachers. Quite the contrary: ‘The Learning Country’ spelt out our commitment to working in partnership with those in education communities and others in Wales. That is the reality and it will continue to be so in future, so I ask you not to support amendment 6.

Bydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad fwy o bwerau o dan Ddeddf Addysg 2002, sef yr hyn yr oeddem yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Fodd bynnag, ni chânt eu harfer ar draul ysgolion a phenaethiaid ysgolion. I’r gwrthwyneb: eglurodd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ein hymrwymiad i weithio mewn partneriaeth â’r rheini mewn cymunedau addysg ac eraill yng Nghymru. Dyna’r realiti a bydd hynny’n parhau yn y dyfodol, felly gofynnaf ichi beidio â chefnogi gwelliant 6.

I have some sympathy with Jocelyn’s amendment 7. However, her proposal is already part and parcel of Assembly policy and procedure in the conduct of Committee business. I assure Jocelyn that, through my reports, the Committee will have ample opportunity to scrutinise and discuss the intended secondary legislation, as will the Assembly itself, under our procedures. I therefore invite Jocelyn to withdraw amendment 7. However, if she is unable to do so, I ask the Assembly to reject it.

Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â gwelliant 7 Jocelyn. Fodd bynnag, mae ei chynnig eisoes yn rhan o bolisi a gweithdrefn y Cynulliad wrth gynnal gwaith Pwyllgorau. Sicrhaf Jocelyn, drwy fy adroddiadau, y bydd gan y Pwyllgor ddigon o gyfle i graffu ar yr is-ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig a’i thrafod, fel y bydd gan y Cynulliad hefyd, o dan ein gweithdrefnau. Felly gwahoddaf Jocelyn i dynnu gwelliant 7 yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, os na all wneud hynny, gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad ei wrthod.

Most of the legislation relating to Wales is enabling in character. That means that we have significant new discretionary powers as to the extent of our application in Wales, as was made clear in ‘The Learning Country’. The National Assembly can take great satisfaction in what appears on the face of the Education Act 2002. It clearly shows that devolution is working and ensuring that our distinctive system of education and training can be delivered with robust confidence and pre-eminently for the benefit of learners in Wales now and in the future.

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r ddeddfwriaeth sy’n berthnasol i Gymru yn alluogol o ran ei natur. Golyga hynny fod gennym bwerau dewisol sylweddol newydd o ran y graddau y gallwn eu cymhwyso yng Nghymru, fel yr eglurwyd yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’. Gall y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fod yn fodlon iawn ar gynnwys Deddf Addysg 2002. Dengys yn amlwg fod datganoli yn gweithio ac yn sicrhau y gellid cyflwyno ein cyfundrefn benodol o addysg a hyfforddiant gyda chryn hyder ac yn anad dim er budd dysgwyr yng Nghymru yn awr ac yn y dyfodol.

I am delighted that today is the second anniversary of my being appointed Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. It is therefore an appropriate day for us to announce this radical agenda.

Yr wyf yn falch bod heddiw’n nodi diwedd fy ail flwyddyn fel Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Felly mae’n ddiwrnod priodol inni gyhoeddi’r agenda radical hon.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 34

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose amendment 1: in point 1, replace ‘welcomes’ with ‘notes’.

Cynigiaf welliant 1: ym mhwynt bwled 1 yn rhoi ‘nodi’ yn lle ‘croesawu’.

Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose amendment 2. Delete point 2 and replace with:

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu pwynt 2 ac yn rhoi yn ei le:

Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose amendment 4. Delete point 3 and replace with:

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Dileu pwynt 3 ac yn rhoi yn ei le:

Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose amendment 6. Delete point 4 and replace with:

Cynigiaf welliant 6. Dileu pwynt 4 ac yn rhoi yn ei le:

Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

The Minister said that we should welcome this opportunity to debate the Education Act 2002. The motion asks us to welcome rather than note the Act. How can we welcome something to which we have not been able to formally contribute? We ought to compare the attitude of the Minister to the Education Bill with the attitude of the Minister for Health and Social Services to the Health Bill, which was debated vigorously in the Assembly. However, we did not have an opportunity to discuss the Education Bill. What is the point of having a devolved National Assembly for Wales if we are not able to scrutinise public Bills of such significance to the nation? Our being here is pointless if we are unable to debate the important matters to which the Minister alluded in her contribution. Asking the Minister’s colleagues and officials to negotiate with Westminster is all very well if that satisfies her, but Members wanted to contribute to this major piece of legislation and put on record their opinion of the education system in Wales and its future direction. However, we were denied that opportunity by an arrogant, high-handed administration. Rather than being self-congratulatory, the Minister should apologise for the contempt shown by the Government towards the National Assembly for Wales as an institution.

Dywedodd y Gweinidog y dylem groesawu’r cyfle hwn i drafod Deddf Addysg 2002. Mae’r cynnig yn gofyn i ni groesawu yn hytrach na nodi’r Ddeddf. Sut y gallwn groesawu rhywbeth nad oeddem yn gallu cyfrannu’n ffurfiol ato? Dylem gymharu agwedd y Gweinidog tuag at y Mesur Addysg ag agwedd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol tuag at y Mesur Iechyd, a drafodwyd yn egnïol yn y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, ni chawsom gyfle i drafod y Mesur Addysg. Beth yw diben cael Cynulliad Cenedlaethol datganoledig i Gymru os na allwn graffu ar Fesurau cyhoeddus sydd mor bwysig i’r genedl? Ofer yw inni fod yma os na allwn drafod y materion pwysig y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog atynt yn ei chyfraniad. Mae’n iawn gofyn i gyd-Aelodau a swyddogion y Gweinidog negodi gyda San Steffan os yw hynny’n ei bodloni, ond yr oedd yr Aelodau am gyfrannu at y darn pwysig hwn o ddeddfwriaeth a chofnodi eu barn ar y gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru a’i chyfeiriad yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, gwadwyd y cyfle hwnnw inni gan weinyddiaeth drahaus ac awdurdodol. Yn hytrach na bod yn hunanglodforus, dylai’r Gweinidog ymddiheuro am y dirmyg a ddangoswyd gan y Llywodraeth tuag at Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru fel sefydliad.

The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning may be happy with her beefed-up role—I congratulate her on her second anniversary—as a result of the huge amount of power devolved to the Government of Wales by the Education Act 2002. However, it does not devolve power to schools, headteachers, governors or parents. The power is devolved to the Minister. Is this a satisfactory state of affairs? We have a Government Minister who now has the power to intervene at will in schools and direct education in Wales without due regard for those who work in schools and govern the system in Wales. We have a more powerful Minister for Education but less authority, less autonomy and less freedom for schools.

Efallai bod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn fodlon ar ei rôl gryfach—hoffwn ei llongyfarch ar gwblhau dwy flynedd yn y swydd—o ganlyniad i’r pŵer sylweddol a ddatganolwyd i Lywodraeth Cymru gan Ddeddf Addysg 2002. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n datganoli pŵer i ysgolion, penaethiaid, llywodraethwyr na rhieni. Datganolir y pŵer i’r Gweinidog. A yw hyn yn foddhaol? Mae gennym Weinidog yn y Llywodraeth sydd â’r pŵer yn awr i ymyrryd fel y myn mewn ysgolion a chyfarwyddo addysg yng Nghymru heb roi ystyriaeth briodol i’r rheini sy’n gweithio mewn ysgolion ac sy’n rheoli’r gyfundrefn yng Nghymru. Mae gennym Weinidog dros Addysg mwy pwerus ond mae ysgolion â llai o awdurdod, llai o hunanlywodraeth a llai o ryddid.

Typical families across the border in England have a greater choice of schools and a greater degree of diversity. Greater use of hypothecation secures budgetary funding for English schools, and the opportunities provided are more advanced than those offered to schools in Wales. The Government of Wales is happy to promote a system that is substandard when compared with the English system. Families in Wales—[Interruption.]

Mae gan deuluoedd nodweddiadol ar draws y ffin yn Lloegr fwy o ddewis o ysgolion a mwy o amrywiaeth. Mae gwneud mwy o ddefnydd o bridiannu yn sicrhau arian cyllidebol ar gyfer ysgolion Lloegr, ac mae’r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael yn well na’r rhai a gynigir i ysgolion yng Nghymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn fodlon hyrwyddo cyfundrefn o safon is na’r un yn Lloegr. Mae teuluoedd yng Nghymru—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Order. I am sure that Jonathan Morgan requires no defence from the Chair, but he should be allowed to make his speech in his own inimitable way.

Trefn. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad oes angen amddiffyn Jonathan Morgan o’r Gadair, ond dylid caniatáu iddo wneud ei araith yn ei ffordd ddihafal ei hun.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 36

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Families in Wales face a different future to that of their English counterparts. People in Wales are restricted to sending their children to the local school and do not have choice. The curriculum is restricted and does not offer schools room to specialise. Teachers are growing tired of increasing workloads, and the freedom to manage their schools is being consistently undermined by this Government. Unlike the Minister—who prefers to consult her former employer, the Welsh Local Government Association—during the summer, we consulted schools, headteachers, governors and parents.

Mae teuluoedd yng Nghymru yn wynebu dyfodol gwahanol iawn i deuluoedd tebyg yn Lloegr. Cyfyngir pobl yng Nghymru i anfon eu plant i’r ysgol leol ac nid oes dewis ganddynt. Mae’r cwricwlwm yn gyfyngedig ac nid yw’n cynnig cyfleoedd i ysgolion arbenigo. Mae athrawon yn blino ar y cynnydd cyson mewn baich gwaith, ac mae’r rhyddid i reoli eu hysgolion yn cael ei danseilio’n gyson gan y Llywodraeth hon. Yn wahanol i’r Gweinidog—y mae’n well ganddi ymgynghori â’i chyn gyflogwr, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru—gwnaethom ymgynghori yn ystod yr haf ag ysgolion, penaethiaid, llywodraethwyr a rhieni.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 36

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

You talk about choice, but the crucial issue is the outcome of the education system. The Neath Port Talbot area has seen continuous improvement in that regard. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Choice is not the issue.

Yr ydych yn sôn am ddewis, ond yr hyn sy’n hollbwysig yw canlyniadau’r gyfundrefn addysg. Mae ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot wedi gweld gwelliant parhaus yn hyn o beth. Wrth ei flas mae profi pwdin. Nid dewis yw’r broblem.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 36

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I am pleased that you referred to outcomes, Brian. If you were to check the results for key stages 2 and 3 published at the end of the summer recess, you would see that the targets set by your Government—and your Government allocated extra millions of pounds in an attempt to reach those targets—were missed, and dreadfully so. We are quite happy to debate outcomes. However, we want parents and families in Wales to be given a choice. They do not currently have that. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves because they have little say over pupil discipline issues and exclusions. They want a Government that reduces the amount of its daily interference in the running of schools. That is the current situation in schools and those are the priorities of teachers and headteachers in Wales. Headteachers want better control over discipline problems and teachers that are valued and not undermined by a supposedly caring Government. They want an education system based on choice, opportunity and diversity. The Minister should have referred to the possibility of ring-fencing education budgets, which is included in the Education Act 2002. We are now able to ring-fence school budgets to give schools the certainty that they need in order to plan effectively for the future. How can a school plan from one year to the next? We need to provide certainty of funding for schools in Wales and the power to ring-fence budgets provided in the Education Act 2002 is a way of doing that.

Yr wyf yn falch ichi gyfeirio at ganlyniadau, Brian. Pe baech yn edrych ar ganlyniadau cyfnodau allweddol 2 a 3 a gyhoeddwyd ar ddiwedd toriad yr haf, buasech yn gweld bod y targedau a bennwyd gan eich Llywodraeth—a dyrannodd eich Llywodraeth filiynau o bunnoedd ychwanegol mewn ymgais i gyrraedd y targedau hynny—wedi eu methu, a’u bod ymhell ohoni. Yr ydym yn eithaf bodlon trafod canlyniadau. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym am i rieni a theuluoedd yng Nghymru gael dewis. Ni chânt ddewis ar hyn o bryd. Mae athrawon yn gadael y proffesiwn yn eu heidiau gan nad oes llawer o lais ganddynt mewn materion disgyblu a gwahardd plant. Maent am gael Llywodraeth sy’n lleihau ei hymyrraeth ddyddiol â sut y caiff ysgolion eu rhedeg. Dyna’r sefyllfa bresennol mewn ysgolion a dyna yw blaenoriaethau athrawon a phenaethiaid yng Nghymru. Mae penaethiaid am gael rheolaeth well dros broblemau disgyblu ac am gael athrawon a werthfawrogir ac nas tanseilir gan Lywodraeth sy’n honni ei bod yn llawn gofal. Maent am gael cyfundrefn addysg yn seiliedig ar ddewis, cyfle ac amrywiaeth. Dylai’r Gweinidog fod wedi cyfeirio at y posibilrwydd o gyllidebau addysg wedi eu neilltuo, a gynhwysir yn Neddf Addysg 2002. Gallwn neilltuo cyllidebau ysgolion yn awr i roi’r sicrwydd sydd ei angen ar ysgolion er mwyn cynllunio’n effeithiol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Sut y gall ysgol gynllunio o un flwyddyn i’r llall? Mae angen inni roi sicrwydd ynglŷn â chyllid i ysgolion yng Nghymru ac mae’r pŵer i neilltuo cyllidebau a ddarperir yn Neddf Addysg 2002 yn ffordd o wneud hynny.

The Government should also provide real targets for reducing paperwork in schools. There have been plenty of warm words, strategies and interesting reports, but little action. Instead of pushing schools into a variety of budget fora with local education authorities and setting up partnership agreements and arrangements between LEA administrators and schools we should set up objectives for reducing the paperwork and bureaucracy that teachers face daily. The Government has created these burdens and it has an opportunity to reduce them by setting targets. If the Government is serious about developing schools in Wales, it should drop its Government-knows-best approach. How can it expect to retain teachers in an already demoralised profession when it spends so much time issuing strategies, documents and guidance and endlessly interfering in the exclusions process? It is no wonder that teachers in Wales are leaving the profession. An education Act to tackle these problems would have been worthy of support.

Dylai’r Llywodraeth roi targedau gwirioneddol hefyd ar gyfer lleihau gwaith papur mewn ysgolion. Bu digon o eiriau caredig, strategaethau ac adroddiadau diddorol, ond ni fu llawer o weithredu. Yn hytrach na gwthio ysgolion i amrywiaeth o fforymau cyllideb gydag awdurdodau addyag lleol a sefydlu cytundebau a threfniadau partneriaeth rhwng gweinyddwyr awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion dylem osod amcanion ar gyfer lleihau’r gwaith papur a’r fiwrocratiaeth a wynebir yn ddyddiol gan athrawon. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi creu’r beichiau hyn ac mae cyfle ganddi i’w lleihau drwy osod targedau. Os yw’r Llywodraeth o ddifrif am ddatblygu ysgolion yng Nghymru, dylai gefnu ar yr ymagwedd mai’r Llywodraeth a ŵyr orau. Sut y gall ddisgwyl cadw athrawon mewn proffesiwn y maent eisoes wedi’u digalonni ynddo pan dreulia gymaint o amser yn cyhoeddi strategaethau, dogfennau a chanllawiau ac yn ymyrryd yn ddiddiwedd yn y broses wahardd? Nid oes ryfedd bod athrawon yng Nghymru yn gadael y proffesiwn. Byddai Deddf addysg i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn wedi bod yn werth ei chefnogi.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 37

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 3: insert at the end of point 2 in the motion:

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 2 yn y cynnig:

Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 37

Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose amendment 5. Insert at the end of point 3 in the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 3 yn y cynnig:

Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 38

Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I propose amendment 7. Insert at the end of point 4 in the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 4 yn y cynnig:

Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 38

Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

In my contribution, I will outline the case for these amendments and, if time allows, comment on Plaid Cymru’s response to the amendments tabled in the name of Jonathan Morgan.

Yn fy nghyfraniad, amlinellaf y ddadl o blaid y gwelliannau hyn ac, os bydd amser yn caniatáu, gwnaf sylwadau ar ymateb Plaid Cymru i’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jonathan Morgan.

On the whole, we welcome the increased powers over education that this Act gives the National Assembly for Wales. The power to develop a truly national curriculum for Wales that meets the distinctive needs of our nation, for example, provides exciting opportunities that we devoutly hope will not be wasted. We are not primarily concerned about what this Act contains, but about what it does not. We cannot understand why a Government that seeks legislation to deliver on what the motion describes as the Government’s distinctive agenda for education has not sought the rare legislative opportunity to gain control over a fundamental tool for delivering on the education agenda, namely the tool of motivating, rewarding, recruiting and retaining staff by gaining power over teachers’ pay and conditions. The teaching staff in Wales is our education system’s key resource. An education programme is only as dynamic, lively and positive as the people who deliver it, namely the teachers.

Ar y cyfan, croesawn y cynnydd mewn pwerau dros addysg y rhydd y Ddeddf hon i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Mae’r pŵer i ddatblygu cwricwlwm gwirioneddol genedlaethol i Gymru sy’n diwallu anghenion penodol ein cenedl, er enghraifft, yn rhoi cyfleoedd cyffrous y gobeithiwn yn daer na chânt eu gwastraffu. Nid yr hyn y mae’r Ddeddf yn ei gynnwys yw ein prif bryder, ond yr hyn nad yw’n ei gynnwys. Ni allwn ddeall pam nad yw Llywodraeth sy’n ceisio deddfwriaeth i weithredu ar yr hyn a ddisgrifir yn y cynnig fel agenda’r Llywodraeth ei hun ar gyfer addysg, wedi manteisio ar y cyfle deddfwriaethol prin i ennill rheolaeth dros ddull sylfaenol o weithredu ar yr agenda addysg, sef y dull o ysgogi, gwobrwyo, recriwtio a chadw staff drwy sicrhau’r pŵer dros gyflog ac amodau athrawon. Y staff addysgu yng Nghymru yw adnodd allweddol ein cyfundrefn addysg. Yr hyn sy’n gwneud rhaglen addysg yn ddeinamig, bywiog a chadarnhaol yw’r bobl sy’n ei darparu, sef yr athrawon.

Many factors, such as professional respect, time to teach and the support of colleagues and the community contribute to morale, recruitment and retention. However, pay and conditions are key. The consultation may not have asked for power over those issues to be devolved, but our teachers look towards Scotland with envy. Without pre-empting a proper debate on what should be done about working hours, for example, the Assembly and the Government of Wales cannot do anything about those issues except lobby the UK Government. If the success of the Assembly Government’s lobbying on benefit disregard for Assembly learning grants is anything to go by, lobbying on this issue is unlikely to be successful. This is not good enough.

Mae llawer o ffactorau, megis parch proffesiynol, amser i addysgu a chefnogaeth cydweithwyr a’r gymuned yn cyfrannu at forâl, recriwtio a chadw athrawon. Fodd bynnag, mae cyflog ac amodau gwaith yn elfennau allweddol. Efallai na ofynnwyd yn yr ymgynghoriad am i’r pŵer dros y materion hynny gael ei ddatganoli, ond mae ein hathrawon yn genfigennus o’r sefyllfa yn yr Alban. Heb ragdybio canlyniad trafodaeth briodol ar yr hyn y dylid ei wneud ynghylch oriau gwaith, er enghraifft, ni all y Cynulliad na Llywodraeth Cymru wneud unrhyw beth ynghylch y materion hynny heblaw lobïo Llywodraeth y DU. O ystyried diffyg llwyddiant Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wrth lobïo dros y ffaith i fudd-daliadau gael eu hanwybyddu mewn perthynas â grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad, mae’n annhebygol y bydd lobïo ar y mater hwn yn llwyddiannus. Nid yw hyn yn ddigon da.

Given the fundamental constitutional confusion and dishonesty that is currently paralysing the Labour Party in Wales, perhaps we should not be surprised that the Minister has not sought these powers. However, her reasons for not doing so are extremely lame. Her fundamental reason, to which she has previously referred, is that we would need more civil servants in order to cope. Provided that the budget to pay their salaries would be devolved with the power, I would welcome a few more secure public sector jobs in Wales. Perhaps we could locate them west of Swansea to compensate for the thousands of manufacturing jobs lost under this Government.

O gofio’r dryswch cyfansoddiadol a’r anonestrwydd sylfaenol sy’n parlysu’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, efallai na ddylem synnu nad yw’r Gweinidog wedi ceisio sicrhau’r pwerau hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae ei rhesymau dros beidio â gwneud hynny yn eithriadol o wan. Ei rheswm sylfaenol, y cyfeiriodd ato yn flaenorol, yw y byddai angen mwy o weision sifil arnom er mwyn ymdopi. Ar yr amod y byddai’r gyllideb i dalu eu cyflogau yn cael ei datganoli gyda’r pŵer, byddwn yn croesawu ychydig mwy o swyddi sector cyhoeddus diogel yng Nghymru. Efallai y gallem eu lleoli i’r gorllewin o Abertawe er mwyn gwneud iawn am y miloedd o swyddi gweithgynhyrchu a gollwyd o dan y Llywodraeth hon.

There is a cryptic reference in the motion to the ‘first primary legislative steps’, which indicates that the Minister may seek other primary legislation opportunities. Perhaps she intends to wait until after the election, as her party proposes to do before saying anything to the people of Wales about further devolution. If so, she will be lucky to find other opportunities, as the Westminster legislative agenda is crowded for the next few years. I fear that we are missing an excellent opportunity that will not be repeated.

Ceir cyfeiriad astrus yn y cynnig at ‘y camau cyntaf o ran deddfwriaeth sylfaenol’, sy’n awgrymu efallai y bydd y Gweinidog yn ceisio cyfleoedd eraill o ran deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Efallai y bwriada aros tan ar ôl yr etholiad, fel y bwriada ei phlaid ei wneud cyn dweud unrhyw beth wrth bobl Cymru am ddatganoli pellach. Os felly, bydd yn ffodus i ddod o hyd i gyfleoedd eraill, gan fod agenda ddeddfwriaethol San Steffan yn orlawn ar gyfer yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Ofnaf ein bod yn colli cyfle rhagorol, ac na chawn gyfle tebyg eto.

Amendment 5 draws attention to a fundamental weakness in the Assembly Government’s current education programme. Our views on this issue differ fundamentally from those of Jonathan Morgan. We welcome the Minister’s refusal to introduce more competition into the education system, and we welcome her oft repeated—and, I believe, genuine—commitment to the comprehensive principle. However, the time has come to go further.

Mae gwelliant 5 yn tynnu sylw at wendid sylfaenol yn rhaglen addysg bresennol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae ein safbwyntiau ar y mater hwn yn wahanol iawn i rai Jonathan Morgan. Croesawn y ffaith i’r Gweinidog wrthod cyflwyno mwy o gystadleuaeth yn y gyfundrefn addysg, a chroesawn ei hymrwymiad, y mae’n ei ailadrodd yn aml—ac y mae’n ddidwyll yn ei gylch, fe gredaf—i’r egwyddor gyfun. Fodd bynnag, daeth yr amser i fynd ymhellach.

While education continues to be funded almost solely on a per-pupil basis—or, in effect, the cash continues to follow the individual—there remains an inherent element of competition between schools and an incentive to poach pupils. The principle that pupils can leave a school perceived to be failing, taking their resources with them, may benefit a fortunate few. However, it will also starve needy schools of resources when they most need them. Schools with problems, and schools that are not as successful as we want them to be, need support. Some may need intervention. They must not be allowed to deteriorate into sink schools.

Tra bod addysg yn parhau i gael ei ariannu fesul disgybl i raddau helaeth—neu, i bob pwrpas, bod yr arian yn parhau i ddilyn yr unigolyn—erys elfen gynhenid o gystadleuaeth rhwng ysgolion a chymhelliant i ddwyn disgyblion. Efallai bod yr egwyddor y gall disgyblion adael ysgol y canfyddir ei bod yn methu, gan fynd â’u hadnoddau gyda hwy, yn fanteisiol i nifer fechan o rai ffodus. Fodd bynnag, bydd hefyd yn amddifadu ysgolion anghenus o adnoddau pan fydd eu hangen fwyaf arnynt. Mae angen cefnogaeth ar ysgolion â phroblemau, ac ysgolion nad ydynt mor llwyddiannus ag y dymunwn iddynt fod. Efallai y bydd angen ymyrryd â rhai. Rhaid sicrhau nad ydynt yn gwaethygu ac yn troi yn ysgolion sy’n methu.

I urge the Minister to initiate a debate on a funding formula based on communities’ needs and not on individuals’ needs only—a formula that would enable all our schools to be funded so that they can flourish. I do not suggest that this will be simple. For example, we would have to take into account those schools that cut across geographical catchment areas, faith schools and Welsh-medium schools. We would have to ensure that the needs of special needs pupils who require additional resources would be met in their communities. We would also have to ensure an appropriate role for local education authorities. However, we believe that it is no longer appropriate that at least 75 per cent of funding must be based on pupil numbers. It is time to level the playing field.

Anogaf y Gweinidog i gychwyn dadl ar fformiwla ariannu a fyddai’n seiliedig ar anghenion cymunedau ac nid ar anghenion unigolion yn unig—fformiwla a fyddai’n galluogi ein holl ysgolion i gael eu hariannu fel y gallant ffynnu. Nid wyf yn awgrymu y bydd hyn yn syml. Er enghraifft, byddai’n rhaid inni ystyried yr ysgolion hynny sy’n torri ar draws dalgylchoedd daearyddol, ysgolion ffydd ac ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Byddai’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod anghenion disgyblion ag anghenion arbennig y mae angen adnoddau ychwanegol arnynt yn cael eu diwallu yn eu cymunedau. Byddai’n rhaid inni sicrhau rôl briodol hefyd ar gyfer awdurdodau addysg lleol. Fodd bynnag, credwn nad yw’n briodol bellach i seilio o leiaf 75 y cant o’r cyllid ar nifer y disgyblion. Mae’n amser sicrhau chwarae teg.

I am amazed that the Minister will not support amendment 7, which seeks to ensure that the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee retains its appropriate scrutiny role. Given Jonathan Morgan’s comments—I agree with him about the lack of scrutiny before this Bill became an Act—we have reason to include this point in the motion. It is remarkable that the Minister does not support the amendment, and it is an extraordinary example of the Labour Party rejecting an amendment with which it agrees. Sadly, it is not the first time that it has done so.

Synnaf nad yw’r Gweinidog am gefnogi gwelliant 7, sy’n ceisio sicrhau bod y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cadw ei rôl graffu briodol. O gofio sylwadau Jonathan Morgan—cytunaf ag ef ynghylch y diffyg craffu cyn i’r Mesur hwn ddod yn Ddeddf—mae gennym reswm i gynnwys y pwynt hwn yn y cynnig. Mae’n anhygoel nad yw’r Gweinidog yn cefnogi’r gwelliant, ac mae’n enghraifft eithriadol o’r modd y mae’r Blaid Lafur yn gwrthod gwelliant y mae’n cytuno ag ef. Yn anffodus, nid dyma’r tro cyntaf iddi wneud hynny.

I do not have sufficient time to comment in detail on the Conservatives’ amendments. Suffice it to say that we will not support amendments 1, 2 and 6 because we disagree with the competitive ethos that the Conservatives support. However, we will support amendment 4 because we share Jonathan Morgan’s concerns about the process.

Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser i roi sylwadau manwl ar welliannau’r Ceidwadwyr. Digon yw dweud na chefnogwn welliannau 1, 2 a 6 am ein bod yn anghytuno â’r ethos cystadleuol a gefnogir gan y Ceidwadwyr. Fodd bynnag, cefnogwn welliant 4 oherwydd rhannwn bryderon Jonathan Morgan ynghylch y broses.

We have many criticisms of the Government of Wales’s education agenda. However, it is clear that it is doing a much better job than its colleagues over the border. However, unfortunately, our pupils continue to be affected by Westminster ineptitude. In replying to the debate, the Minister may wish to comment on this summer’s farce over A-level gradings. Does she, for example, support the call for compensation for the students affected? I certainly do.

Yr ydym yn feirniadol iawn o agenda addysg Llywodraeth Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amlwg ei bod yn gwneud gwell gwaith o lawer na’i chyd-aelodau dros y ffin. Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus, mae anfedrusrwydd San Steffan yn parhau i effeithio ar ein disgyblion. Wrth ymateb i’r ddadl, efallai y dymuna’r Gweinidog roi sylwadau ar ffars yr haf hwn ynghylch graddau’r arholiadau safon uwch. A yw, er enghraifft, yn cefnogi’r galw am iawndal i’r myfyrwyr yr effeithiwyd arnynt? Yr wyf fi yn sicr yn cefnogi hynny.

Unfortunately, this legislation leaves too much in Westminster’s hands. We welcome many of the distinctive aspects of the Assembly Government’s education agenda and, therefore, we welcome the Act, as far as it goes. We simply wish that the Government had had the courage to go a little further.

Yn anffodus, mae’r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn gadael gormod yn nwylo San Steffan. Croesawn lawer o’r agweddau penodol ar agenda addysg Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac felly, croesawn y Ddeddf, o ran yr hyn a gynhwysir ynddi. Trueni nad oedd gan y Llywodraeth y dewrder i fynd ychydig ymhellach.

Val Lloyd spoken in English p. 41

Val Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

I declare an interest as a qualified teacher, a school governor and a councillor in Swansea City and County Council. There is much to discuss in this Act, but I will concentrate on the key areas of transition, budget fora and the partnership agreements.

Datganaf fuddiant fel athrawes gymwysiedig, llywodraethwraig ysgol a chynghorydd yng Nghyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Mae llawer i’w drafod yn y Ddeddf hon, ond canolbwyntiaf ar feysydd allweddol trawsnewid, y fforymau cyllideb a’r cytundebau partneriaeth.

The requirement on governing bodies of secondary schools and their feeder primary schools to plan together for transition from key stage 2 to key stage 3 is a positive step. Such a planning process is not a new concept, and many schools have initiated and participated in such schemes for the last few years. I have been fortunate to share in an excellent scheme developed and operationalised by the seven feeder primary schools and the community comprehensive school at Morriston in my constituency. There is a strong commitment to making this phase a positive experience for both pupils and staff, which has led to innovative and extensive developments. It is tempting to describe these in detail, but it is not appropriate to do so now, except to suggest that this element of best practice might serve as a model for the future. It is appropriate however to remember that the transition we are discussing has a human element and needs to be addressed sensitively and thoughtfully. A successful outcome not only has a bearing on academic achievement or future school career, but it also has a personal dimension and a potential influence on the direction of an individual’s life. That is why it is so important.

Mae’r gofyniad ar gyrff llywodraethol ysgolion uwchradd a’r ysgolion cynradd sy’n eu bwydo i gynllunio ar y cyd ar gyfer pontio o gyfnod allweddol 2 i gyfnod allweddol 3 yn gam cadarnhaol. Nid yw proses gynllunio o’r fath yn gysyniad newydd, ac mae llawer o ysgolion wedi dechrau cynlluniau o’r fath ac wedi cymryd rhan ynddynt yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. Bûm yn ffodus i fod yn rhan o gynllun ardderchog a ddatblygwyd ac a roddwyd ar waith gan yr ysgol gyfun gymunedol a’r saith ysgol gynradd sy’n ei bwydo yn Nhreforys yn fy etholaeth. Ceir ymrwymiad cryf i sicrhau bod y cam hwn yn brofiad cadarnhaol i’r disgyblion a’r staff, gan arwain at ddatblygiadau arloesol a sylweddol. Mae’n demtasiwn manylu ar y rhain, ond nid yw’n briodol gwneud hynny yn awr, ac eithrio i awgrymu y gallai’r elfen hon o arfer gorau fod yn batrwm i’r dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n briodol cofio bod y broses bontio a drafodwn yn ymwneud â phobl ac mae angen ymdrin â hi mewn modd sensitif ac ystyriol. Mae canlyniad llwyddiannus nid yn unig yn effeithio ar lwyddiant academaidd neu yrfa ysgol yn y dyfodol, ond mae ganddo ddimensiwn personol hefyd a gall ddylanwadu ar gyfeiriad bywyd unigolyn o bosibl. Dyma pam mae hi mor bwysig.

School funding and school budgets are always hot spots and generate much heated discussion. Aspirations are high and rightly so, but tensions are then generated when they cannot always be met. When it comes to funding, the perceptions held by individual schools and LEAs are not always the same. If the proposed budget fora provide the opportunity for dialogue between schools and LEAs about funding and budgets, then they are a proactive measure which is welcome. I would like to know more detail about this measure, Jane. Is it perhaps envisaged that the budget fora would, or could be, an element of the partnership agreement? Partnership agreements have proved their worth in other arenas, and I look forward to their introduction in this field. Local authorities have much experience of them, but they will possibly be new to schools and communities. They raise expectations in participants, so preparation and relevant prior discussion will be beneficial.

Mae ariannu ysgolion a chyllidebau ysgolion bob amser yn bynciau llosg ac yn creu llawer o drafodaeth frwd. Ceir uchelgeisiau mawr ac mae hynny’n briodol, ond mae hynny’n creu tyndra pan na ellir eu gwireddu bob amser. O ran ariannu, nid oes gan ysgolion unigol ac awdurdodau addysg lleol yr un safbwynt bob amser. Os rhydd y fforymau cyllideb arfaethedig y cyfle i ysgolion ac awdurdodau addysg lleol drafod cyllido a chyllidebau, yna maent yn gam rhagweithiol i’w groesawu. Hoffwn gael rhagor o fanylion am y cam hwn, Jane. A ragwelir efallai y byddai’r fforymau cyllideb yn elfen o’r cytundeb partneriaeth, neu y gallent fod yn elfen ohono? Bu cytundebau partneriaeth yn werthfawr mewn meysydd eraill, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld eu cyflwyno yn y maes hwn. Mae gan awdurdodau lleol lawer o brofiad ohonynt, ond byddant yn newydd i ysgolion a chymunedau o bosibl. Codant ddisgwyliadau ymhlith cyfranogwyr, ac felly byddai gwaith paratoi a thrafodaeth berthnasol ymlaen llaw o fudd.

Although I have chosen to highlight those three issues, there are other positive proposals, such as curriculum innovations and adaptability, continuing professional development, and regional provision for children with more complex needs. Together, all of them will take forward the schools agenda. In light of all of that, I welcome the Act and its provisions.

Er imi ddewis amlygu’r tri mater hynny, ceir cynigion cadarnhaol eraill, megis arloesi â’r cwricwlwm a sicrhau bod modd ei addasu, datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus, a darpariaeth ranbarthol ar gyfer plant ag anghenion mwy cymhleth. Gyda’i gilydd, bydd pob un ohonynt yn datblygu’r agenda ar gyfer ysgolion. Yng ngoleuni hynny oll, croesawaf y Ddeddf a’i darpariaethau.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 42

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn ein hatgoffa bod y rhan fwyaf o ddarpariaethau’r Ddeddf yn alluogol. Maent yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad eu cymhwyso yma yng Nghymru. Da a theg o beth yw cofnodi hynny. Mae’n rhaglen uchelgeisiol, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog. Dywedodd Helen Mary ar ein rhan ein bod ni’n croesawu’r agweddau hyn. Fodd bynnag, nid da lle gellir gwell. Mae’r geiriau ‘y rhan fwyaf’ hefyd yn ein hatgoffa nad oes gan y Cynulliad reolaeth dros rai agweddau addysgol hollbwysig, a bod y diffyg hwnnw’n arafu a thanseilio ymdrechion a gallu Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gyflawni’r amcanion a nodir yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’.

This motion reminds us that the majority of the provisions of the Act are enabling. They allow the Assembly to apply them here in Wales. It is only right that we note that. It is an ambitious programme, as the Minister said. Helen Mary said on our behalf that we welcome these aspects. However, we could do better. The words ‘the majority’ also remind us that the Assembly does not have control over some vital aspects of education, and that that deficit slows and undermines the Welsh Assembly Government’s attempts to achieve the aims set out in ‘The Learning Country’.

Mae’r ffaith bod o leiaf dau o’r gwelliannau yn cyfeirio at newidiadau yn y dull o ariannu’r gwasanaeth ac yn gofyn amdanynt, yn dangos nad yw’r drefn bresennol yn addas ar gyfer cynnal yr egwyddor gyfun, nac ychwaith ein hysgolion cyfun, fel y dywedodd Helen Mary yn gynharach. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at welliant 3, a’n hatgoffa nad oes gennym reolaeth dros dâl ac amodau gwaith athrawon o dan y drefn ddatganoledig bresennol. Hyd nes y sefydlir dull o ariannu teg drwy Gymru gyfan, ac nes bod gan y Cynulliad reolaeth dros gyflogau ac amodau gwaith, ni fydd gobaith i unrhyw Lywodraeth yng Nghymru wireddu ei holl amcanion ym myd addysg.

The fact that at least two of the amendments refer to, and ask for, changes in the way the service is funded, shows that the present system is not appropriate to maintain the comprehensive principle, or indeed our comprehensive schools, as Helen Mary said earlier. She also referred to amendment 3, and reminded us that we do not control teachers’ pay and conditions under the present devolutionary system. Until a fair funding method is established throughout Wales, and until the Assembly controls pay and conditions, no Welsh Government will ever fully achieve its aims in education.

Gofidiaf fod y Gweinidog wedi gwrthod cefnogi gwelliant 3. Mae diffyg ariannu gwastad a chynhaliol yn peri pob math o drafferthion a rhwystredigaethau drwy Gymru gyfan, tra bod diffyg rheolaeth dros gyflogau ac amodau gwaith athrawon yn tanseilio—fel y clywson—y broses recriwtio, gwobrwyo a chadw’n hathrawon.

I am concerned that the Minister has refused to support amendment 3. The absence of consistent and uniform funding causes all kinds of problems and frustrations across Wales, while a lack of control over pay and conditions undermines—as we heard—the process of recruiting, rewarding and retaining teachers.

Pa syniadau da neu argymhellion bynnag a ddaw o’r Cynulliad i hyrwyddo lles proffesiynol athrawon, y gwirionedd yw y bydd yn rhaid i’r trên addysgol aros yng ngorsaf Caerdydd nes cael golau gwyrdd gan yr Adran Addysg a Sgiliau yn San Steffan. Er enghraifft, mae’r oedi i gwtogi biwrocratiaeth, a’r disgwyl maith am gyhoeddi’r safonau cenedlaethol cyn gallu mewnoli taliadau trothwy, a llawer o agweddau eraill, yn andwyol i’r rhaglen hyfforddi, recriwtio a chadw athrawon.

No matter what the Assembly proposes to promote the professional welfare of teachers, the reality is that the education train must wait at Cardiff station until it gets the green light from the Department for Education and Skills at Westminster. For example, the delay in reducing bureaucracy, and the protracted wait for the publication of national standards before the introduction of threshold payments was possible, as well as many other aspects, are harmful to the training programme, and the recruitment and retention of teachers.

Yn The Western Mail ddoe, darllenais erthygl dan y pennawd ‘Volunteers in the Firing Line’. Nid cyfeiriad at ymweliad y Cabinet â Llandudno oedd hwn, ond at y pwysau anghyffredin a roddir bellach ar ysgwyddau’r bobl hynny yr ydym yn eu cymryd mor ganiataol. Eto, hebddynt—y 24,000 o lywodraethwyr ysgolion—byddai’r gwasanaeth addysg yn cwympo. Cyfeiria’r erthygl at broblemau a phryderon real sy’n wynebu llywodraethwyr ym meysydd ariannu, pwysau cyfrifoldebau, recriwtio llywodraethwyr a blaengareddau. Maent yn dioddef o’r hyn a elwir yn ‘lludded blaengareddau’. Wrth gyfeirio at y pryderon hyn, nid beirniadu’r Llywodraeth ydwyf. Gwyddom am etifeddiaeth cyfnod Thatcher pan ruthrwyd i fewnoli polisïau niweidiol yng Nghymru yn yr 1980au a’r 1990au, heb na darpariaeth na buddsoddiad adnoddau digonol ar eu cyfer. Rhaid inni roi llawer mwy o sylw i’n llywodraethwyr, gan fynd allan o’n ffordd i’w cynorthwyo a’u cefnogi. Mae rhai eisoes wedi dangos eu bod yn anfodlon ac wedi ymddiswyddo oherwydd gofynion eu rôl rheoli perfformiad. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad allweddol a all effeithio ar les a llwyddiant y gwasanaeth addysg.

In yesterday’s The Western Mail, I read an article under the headline ‘Volunteers in the Firing Line’. That was not a refernece to the Cabinet’s visit to Llandudno, but to the incredible pressures currently being placed on those people whom we take so much for granted. Yet, without them—the 24,000 school governors—the education system would collapse. The article refers to the real problems and concerns facing governors in matters of funding, pressures of responsibility, recruitment of governors and initiatives. They are suffering from what is called ‘initiative fatigue’. In referring to these concerns, I am not criticising the Government. We know of the legacy of the Thatcher period when there was a rush in the 1980s and 1990s to enact damaging policies in Wales, with neither provision nor sufficient resources invested in them. We must pay more attention to our governors, and go out of our way to assist and support them. Some have already shown their dissatisfaction and have resigned because of the demands of their performance management responsibilities. That is a key development that may affect the welfare and success of the education service.

Os nad yw llywodraethwyr yn fodlon â’r drefn bresennol, sut ymdopant â’r gofynion a’r cyfrifoldebau newydd a ddaw yn sgîl y Ddeddf Addysg hon? Bydd y Ddeddf yn caniatáu i lywodraethwyr ffurfio neu fuddsoddi mewn cwmnïau i ddarparu gwasanaethau i ysgolion. Mawr obeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cydnabod cyfraniad allweddol llywodraethwyr, a’u bod yn barod i fuddsoddi o ddifrif i hyfforddi a chefnogi llywodraethwyr ein hysgolion a’n colegau. Ni welais fawr o addewid yn ffigurau’r gyllideb, ond yr wyf yn barod i gael fy nghywiro.

If governors are not content with the present system, how will they cope with the new requirements and responsibilities placed upon them by this Education Act? This Act will permit governors to form or invest in companies to provide services to schools. I very much hope that the Minister and the Assembly Government acknowledges the key contribution of governors, and that they are prepared to make significant investment in training and support for school and college governors. I saw little sign of that in the budget, but I am willing to be corrected.

I gloi, mae pethau da yn digwydd ym myd addysg. Mae’n dda cydnabod hynny. Serch hynny, fe erys rhai problemau endemig a all eto arwain at dyndra, methiannau a dadrithiad. Felly, erfyniaf ar y Gweinidog i gydnabod y bygythiad hwn, ac iddi hi, a’i chyd-Weinidogion, sicrhau grym datganoledig llawn a fyddai’n galluogi Llywodraeth Cymru i drawsnewid ein gwasanaeth addysg er gwell, unwaith ac am byth.

Finally, good things are happening in education. We should acknowledge that. However, some endemic problems remain that may yet lead to tensions, failures and disillusionment. Therefore, I implore the Minister to acknowledge that threat, and for her, and her Cabinet colleagues, to secure the fully devolved power that would enable the Government of Wales to transform our education system for the better, once and for all.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 44

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I welcome the Education Act 2002 and the opportunity to achieve legislation specifically tailored to the needs of Wales. That opportunity recognises devolution and the advantages that it offers for better government and better delivery of public services. No provision is more important than education for the future of Wales. One of this Labour-led Government’s greatest challenges is to pursue social justice, across all Assembly-provided services and responsibilities, to achieve greater equality of opportunity. We must work towards an end to the tremendous waste of human potential that has blighted our communities. I have raised this point before—and make no apology for doing so again—but it is vital that we provide greater resources to schools serving the most disadvantaged areas. The current funding formula does not appear to allow sufficient flexibility for LEAs to ensure that schools are funded with sufficient weighting for deprivation factors. Seventy-five per cent of formula funding results from pupil numbers and the remainder relates to various aspects, leaving little scope for factoring in disadvantage.

Croesawaf Ddeddf Addysg 2002 a’r cyfle i gael deddfwriaeth sydd wedi’i theilwra at anghenion Cymru yn benodol. Mae’r cyfle hwnnw yn cydnabod datganoli a’r manteision a gynigia ar gyfer llywodraeth well ac ar gyfer cyflwyno gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn well. Nid oes unrhyw ddarpariaeth yn bwysicach nag addysg i ddyfodol Cymru. Un o heriau mwyaf y Llywodraeth hon o dan arweiniad y Blaid Lafur yw sicrhau cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, ar draws yr holl wasanaethau a ddarperir gan y Cynulliad a’i gyfrifoldebau, i sicrhau cyfle cyfartal gwell. Rhaid inni anelu at ddod â’r gwastraff mawr o botensial dynol sydd wedi difetha ein cymunedau i ben. Yr wyf wedi codi’r pwynt hwn o’r blaen—ac nid ymddiheuraf am ei godi eto—ond mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn rhoi mwy o adnoddau i ysgolion sy’n gwasanaethu’r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig. Ymddengys nad yw’r fformiwla gyllido bresennol yn ddigon hyblyg i AALl sicrhau y caiff ysgolion eu cyllido gyda phwysoliad digonol ar gyfer y ffactorau amddifadedd. Daw 75 y cant o’r fformiwla gyllido o niferoedd disgyblion ac mae’r gweddill yn ymwneud ag agweddau amrywiol, heb fawr o gwmpas i ystyried ffactorau amddifadedd.

It is only fair to the schools serving our most deprived communities that we address this agenda urgently. These schools face difficulties and disadvantages not faced by other schools. They could put extra resources to good use in terms of tackling this unfairness. The most obvious example would be to reduce class sizes further in such schools.

Nid yw ond yn deg i’r ysgolion sy’n gwasanaethu ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig ein bod yn ymdrin â’r agenda hon ar fyrder. Mae’r ysgolion hyn yn wynebu anawsterau ac anfanteision nas wynebir gan ysgolion eraill. Gallent wneud defnydd da o adnoddau ychwanegol i fynd i’r afael â’r annhegwch hwn. Yr enghraifft amlycaf fyddai lleihau maint dosbarthiadau ymhellach mewn ysgolion o’r fath.

In this context, I welcome the recently announced budget increases for education for the next three years because of the opportunities that that money will afford, although the reduction in GEST expenditure is a cause for concern in terms of the Assembly’s ability to pursue a progressive and constructive agenda. However, in general the increase in resources is welcome.

Yn y cyd-destun hwn, croesawaf y cynnydd yn y gyllideb ar gyfer addysg dros y tair blynedd nesaf a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar oherwydd y cyfleoedd y bydd yr arian hwnnw yn eu rhoi, er bod y gostyngiad mewn gwariant GEST yn peri pryder o ran gallu’r Cynulliad i ddatblygu agenda flaenllaw ac adeiladol. Fodd bynnag, croesawaf y cynnydd mewn adnoddau yn gyffredinol.

More specifically, I ask Jane to further address how the Education Act will allow the Assembly to pursue greater fairness for schools serving our most deprived communities and in particular how the budget fora and partnership agreements that Val Lloyd mentioned will impact on this agenda. The fora will clearly provide opportunities for a crucial dialogue between schools and local education authorities about school funding and budgets as well as other matters. The partnership agreements between local authorities and schools will allow them to work together for schools and communities across Wales. Will Jane flesh out how these innovations will allow resources to reach those schools serving our most disadvantaged communities? I know that Jane cherishes this aim as much as myself and many others.

Yn fwy penodol, gofynnaf i Jane ymdrin ymhellach â’r ffordd y bydd y Ddeddf Addysg yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad sicrhau mwy o degwch i ysgolion sy’n gwasanaethu ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig ac yn benodol sut y bydd y fforymau cyllideb a’r cytundebau partneriaeth a grybwyllodd Val Lloyd yn effeithio ar yr agenda hon. Mae’n amlwg y bydd y fforymau yn rhoi cyfleoedd i gael trafodaeth hanfodol rhwng ysgolion ac awdurdodau addysg lleol ynghylch cyllido a chyllidebau ysgolion yn ogystal â materion eraill. Bydd y cytundebau partneriaeth rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion yn caniatáu iddynt gydweithio er lles ysgolion a chymunedau ledled Cymru. A wnaiff Jane roi mwy o fanylion am y ffordd y bydd y cynlluniau arloesol hyn yn sicrhau bod adnoddau yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion hynny sy’n gwasanaethu ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig? Gwn fod Jane yn coleddu’r nod hwn cymaint â minnau a llawer o bobl eraill.

I look forward to a continuing effective partnership between Westminster, the Assembly, local authorities in Wales, and crucially, our schools and communities to achieve better equality of opportunity for all our children and to work towards a long overdue end to the tremendous waste of human potential in our society.

Edrychaf ymlaen at bartneriaeth effeithiol barhaus rhwng San Steffan, y Cynulliad, awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru, ac yn hollbwysig, ein hysgolion a’n cymunedau er mwyn sicrhau cyfle cyfartal gwell i bob un o’n plant a gweithio tuag at ddod â’r gwastraff mawr mewn potensial dynol yn ein cymdeithas i ben a ddylai fod wedi digwydd amser maith yn ôl.

David Davies spoken in English p. 46

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

We can all welcome and vote for anything that improves education in Wales. However, the sad fact is that for all the self-congratulatory rhetoric of Labour Ministers, to which Jonathan Morgan referred, our education system is in a shocking state and has been for decades.

Gall pob un ohonom groesawu unrhyw beth sy’n gwella addysg yng Nghymru a phleidleisio drosto. Fodd bynnag, y peth trist yw bod ein cyfundrefn addysg mewn cyflwr ofnadwy a’i bod wedi bod yn y cyflwr hwnnw ers blynyddoedd, er gwaethaf holl rethreg hunan-glodforus y Gweinidogion Llafur, y cyfeiriodd Jonathan Morgan ati.

Every year, thousands of 11-year-olds enter comprehensive schools unable to read and write properly. While the majority of children from middle class backgrounds go off to university or further education, the figures relating to children from deprived backgrounds are much lower. I saw one statistic showing that only one in five go on to higher education; it is too appalling to believe, but that is the figure. Those two facts alone should be enough to silence any complacency about standards of education in this country. Therefore, who is to blame for this? The teachers and teaching unions blame the Government. The Government, predictably, blames the previous Government and parents get frustrated and blame everyone. In fact, everyone should carry the blame. Governments, both Conservative and Labour, must carry the greatest share of the blame, not for a lack of funding because that has never been the biggest issue, but for supporting the introduction of the comprehensive school system, which was rightly described as one of the greatest betrayals of the working class of the last century and which the Prime Minister now accepts has been a failure.

Bob blwyddyn, mae miloedd o blant 11 mlwydd oed yn dechrau ysgolion cyfun heb fod yn gallu darllen ac ysgrifennu’n iawn. Tra bod y mwyafrif o blant o gefndiroedd dosbarth canol yn mynd i brifysgol neu addysg bellach, mae’r ffigurau ar gyfer plant o gefndiroedd difreintiedig yn llawer is. Gwelais un ystadegyn a ddangosodd mai dim ond un person ifanc o bob pump sy’n symud ymlaen i addysg uwch; mae’n rhy ofnadwy i’w gredu, ond dyna’r ffigur. Dylai’r ddwy ffaith hynny yn unig fod yn ddigon i dawelu unrhyw hunanfoddhad ynghylch safonau addysg yn y wlad hon. Felly, pwy sydd ar fai am hyn? Rhydd yr athrawon ac undebau’r athrawon y bai ar y Llywodraeth. Rhydd y Llywodraeth y bai ar y Llywodraeth flaenorol, yn ôl y disgwyl, ac mae rhieni yn rhwystredig ac yn beio pawb. Mewn gwirionedd, dylai pawb syrthio ar eu bai. Llywodraethau Ceidwadol a Llafur sydd â’r bai mwyaf, nid oherwydd diffyg cyllid gan nad hwnnw fu’r broblem fwyaf erioed, ond am gefnogi’r broses o gyflwyno’r gyfundrefn addysg gyfun, a ddisgrifiwyd yn gywir fel un o’r achosion mwyaf o fradychu’r dosbarth gweithiol yn y ganrif ddiwethaf ac a dderbynnir bellach gan y Prif Weinidog fel methiant.

Any study of statistics will show that the number of working-class children entering university fell in the late seventies when comprehensive schools were established.

Dengys unrhyw astudiaeth o’r ystadegau i nifer y plant o’r dosbarth gweithiol a aeth i brifysgol ostwng ar ddiwedd y saithdegau pan sefydlwyd ysgolion cyfun.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 47

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 47

Mae cymaint o sôn am y pwynt hwn. Beth yw eich diffiniad o’r egwyddor gyfun? Beth y mae’n ei golygu i chi?

There is so much talk about this point. What is your definition of the comprehensive principle? What does it mean to you?

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 47

David Davies spoken in Welsh and English p. 47

Mae’n bwysig caniatáu i blant o bob cefndir y cyfle i gael safon uchel o addysg. Gwaetha’r modd, nid yw’r system gyfun wedi cyflwyno hyn.

in Welsh It is important to give children from every background the opportunity of a high standard of education. Unfortunately, the comprehensive system has not delivered that.

With the establishment of comprehensive schools, we removed the only opportunity by which the poor could enjoy a standard of education comparable to that which is on offer in the independent sector. John talked about the great waste of human resources. He was right to talk about that, but his conclusion was wrong. People have been saying, John, that comprehensives will lead to equality. That is what you want. You will probably find this hard to believe, but that is what I want too. I do not want equality of outcome, I want equality of opportunity. The present reality is that middle class parents, such as my own, who could not afford to send me to a private school, are cheating. My parents moved to a middle class catchment area with a good, decent comprehensive nearby. People like me can thus have a good education. I can then say that I went to a comprehensive like everyone else, and I did, but it was a good comprehensive. It offered me a much better chance. It is not only people like my parents who do that, people are doing it in many areas, and I do not blame them. The Prime Minister has done it.

yn Saesneg Pan sefydlwyd ysgolion cyfun, bu inni ddileu’r unig gyfle i bobl dlawd gael safon o addysg a oedd yn debyg i’r hyn a gynigir yn y sector annibynnol. Siaradodd John am y gwastraff mawr o adnoddau dynol. Yr oedd yn gywir iddo siarad am hynny, ond daeth i’r casgliad anghywir. Bu pobl yn dweud, John, y bydd ysgolion cyfun yn sicrhau cydraddoldeb. Dyna’r hyn yr ydych am ei weld. Mae’n debyg y byddwch yn cael hyn yn anodd i’w gredu, ond dyna’r hyn yr wyf innau am ei weld hefyd. Nid wyf am weld canlyniadau cyfartal, yr wyf am weld cyfle cyfartal. Y realiti ar hyn o bryd yw bod rhieni dosbarth canol, megis fy rhieni i, na allent fforddio fy anfon i ysgol breifat, yn twyllo. Symudodd fy rhieni i ddalgylch dosbarth canol gydag ysgol gyfun dda gerllaw. Felly, gall pobl fel minnau gael addysg dda. Yna gallaf ddweud imi fynd i ysgol gyfun fel pawb arall, ac mae hynny’n wir, ond yr oedd yn ysgol gyfun dda. Cynigiodd gyfle llawer gwell imi. Nid pobl fel fy rhieni i yn unig sy’n gwneud hynny, mae pobl yn gwneud hynny mewn llawer o ardaloedd, ac nid wyf yn eu beio. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi gwneud hynny.

Delyth Evans spoken in English p. 48

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

As somebody who was educated entirely through the comprehensive system, I could not think of a better education than the one I received. What would you say to people like members of my family, who were educated before the comprehensive system, and whose future was completely written off when they failed their exams to enter the secondary system?

Fel rhywun a gafodd ei haddysg drwy’r gyfundrefn gyfun yn gyfan gwbl, ni allwn feddwl am addysg well na’r un a gefais. Beth a ddywedech wrth bobl fel aelodau o’m teulu, a addysgwyd cyn y gyfundrefn gyfun, ac y difethwyd eu dyfodol yn llwyr wedi iddynt fethu eu harholiadau i fynd i’r system uwchradd?

David Davies spoken in English p. 48

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

It is well for you to say that there is nothing wrong with the comprehensive school that you attended. There was nothing wrong with the one that I attended, which was in a middle class area of Newport. It was a former grammar school and it was a good school. Ron Davies attended the same school. It was a grammar school in his day, and it has not done him any harm.

Mae’n iawn ichi ddweud nad oedd dim byd o’i le yn yr ysgol gyfun yr aethoch iddi. Nid oedd dim byd o’i le yn yr un yr euthum innau iddi, a oedd mewn ardal dosbarth canol o Gasnewydd. Yr oedd yn hen ysgol ramadeg ac yn ysgol dda. Aeth Ron Davies i’r un ysgol. Yr oedd yn ysgol ramadeg pan aeth ef yno, ac ni wnaeth unrhyw niwed iddo.

Ron Davies spoken in English p. 48

Ron Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

It did, actually.

Gwnaeth, a dweud y gwir.

David Davies spoken in English p. 48

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

We will not go into that. What do you say to the children who come from deprived backgrounds who end up going to what Labour Ministers call bog standard comprehensives—the failing comprehensives—because their parents do not have the money to go off and buy a house in a nice area as yours and mine did.

Ni thrafodwn hynny. Beth a ddywedwch wrth y plant a ddaw o gefndiroedd difreintiedig sy’n mynd i’r hyn y mae Gweinidogion Llafur yn eu galw yn ysgolion cyfun cyffredin—yr ysgolion cyfun sy’n methu—am nad oes digon o arian gan eu rhieni i symud ac i brynu tŷ mewn ardal braf fel y gwnaeth eich rhieni chi a’m rhieni i.

Delyth Evans a gododd—

Delyth Evans rose—

David Davies spoken in English p. 48

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

I cannot give way to you again. I only have a few minutes.

Ni allaf ildio ichi eto. Dim ond ychydig funudau sydd gennyf.

Delyth Evans spoken in English p. 48

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Do not ask me a question if you do not want to hear the answer.

Peidiwch â gofyn cwestiwn imi os nad ydych am glywed yr ateb.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Order. This is not a private discussion between David Davies and Delyth Evans.

Trefn. Nid trafodaeth breifat rhwng David Davies a Delyth Evans yw hon.

David Davies spoken in English p. 48

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

The people who are suffering are those bright children living on rundown estates, where a majority are living in a twilight world of crime, benefits and drugs. They are the ones who are being denied the education that many of us, like you and me, who were a bit luckier, enjoyed. Despite the Prime Minister’s quite admirable rhetoric and obvious understanding of the problem, in Wales, Labour Ministers, such as Jane Davidson, cling to the outdated notion that equality can only be achieved by reducing choice further and by lowering standards until we all have the same low level of education. The real answer is more radical and will need political courage from everyone.

Y bobl sy’n dioddef yw’r plant galluog hynny sy’n byw ar ystadau llwm, lle y mae mwyafrif y trigolion yn byw mewn byd cysgodion o drosedd, budd-daliadau a chyffuriau. Hwy yw’r rhai na chânt yr addysg a gafodd cymaint ohonom, fel chithau a minnau, a oedd ychydig yn fwy ffodus. Er gwaethaf rhethreg glodwiw y Prif Weinidog a’i ddealltwriaeth amlwg o’r broblem, mae’r Gweinidogion Llafur yng Nghymru, megis Jane Davidson, yn glynu wrth y syniad hen ffasiwn mai dim ond drwy leihau dewis ymhellach a thrwy ostwng safonau nes bod gan bob un ohonom yr un lefel isel o addysg y gellir sicrhau cydraddoldeb. Mae’r ateb gwirioneddol yn fwy radical a bydd angen dewrder gwleidyddol ar ran pawb.

We must take on the vested interests of civil servants, LEAs, and all the other bureaucrats who cost so much and deliver so little of practical worth. We need to give schools as much autonomy as possible, use the money saved on the bureaucrats to increase teachers’ wages, but only with the proviso that if they fail to deliver to the required standards, then without question they must be removed quickly and replaced by others who are more able. Above all, we cannot go on allowing bright kids from rundown estates to be subjected to the bog standard comprehensives, which Ministers eschew for their own children.

Rhaid inni herio buddiannau personol gweision sifil, AALl, a’r holl fiwrocratiaid eraill sy’n costio cymaint ac sy’n cyflwyno cyn lleied o werth ymarferol. Mae angen inni roi cymaint o hunanlywodraeth â phosibl i ysgolion, gan ddefnyddio’r arian nas gwerir ar y biwrocratiaid i godi cyflogau athrawon, ond dim ond ar yr amod bod yn rhaid cael gwared arnynt a’u disodli gan eraill sy’n fwy abl, os byddant yn methu â chyflawni’r safonau angenrheidiol. Yn anad dim, ni allwn barhau i ganiatáu i blant galluog o ystadau llwm orfod mynd i’r ysgolion cyfun cyffredin, a osgoir gan y Gweinidogion ar gyfer eu plant eu hunain.

Minister, your party claims to speak up for the poor. Your responsibility to those children is far greater than your political dogma or any middle class hang ups that you may have over private education, faith schools, or other schools outside the comprehensive model. The time has come to think the unthinkable, and to replace the model of the standard comprehensives with diverse schools that can cater for children from every background and every level of ability, regardless of their parents’ ability to pay.

Weinidog, mae eich plaid yn honni ei bod yn siarad ar ran y tlawd. Mae eich cyfrifoldeb i’r plant hynny yn llawer mwy na’ch dogma gwleidyddol nac unrhyw broblem dosbarth canol sydd gennych o ran addysg breifat, ysgolion ffydd, neu ysgolion eraill y tu allan i’r model cyfun. Mae’r amser wedi dod i ddychmygu’r annychmygol, ac i ddisodli’r ysgolion cyfun safonol gydag ysgolion amrywiol sy’n diwallu anghenion plant o bob cefndir a phob lefel o allu, beth bynnag fo gallu eu rhieni i dalu.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 49

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I declare an interest as a registered teacher, and my wife is a headteacher. If we needed further evidence that the Tories are a total shambles, we have just seen it. They have no policies and their differences are unbelievable.

Datganaf fuddiant fel athro cofrestredig, ac mae fy ngwraig yn bennaeth. Os oedd angen mwy o dystiolaeth arnom fod y Torïaid mewn llanastr llwyr, yr ydym newydd ei gweld. Nid oes dim polisïau ganddynt ac mae eu gwahaniaethau yn anhygoel.

The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome this motion and the fact that the partnership Government has secured the necessary provisions in the Education Act 2002 to allow the Assembly to pursue its own agenda and policies in Wales that are right for Wales. That will allow the distinctive Welsh agenda set out in ‘The Learning Country’ to be followed.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu’r cynnig hwn a’r ffaith bod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth wedi sicrhau y darpariaethau angenrheidiol yn Neddf Addysg 2002 i ganiatáu i’r Cynulliad ddilyn ei agenda a’i bolisïau ei hun yng Nghymru sy’n briodol i Gymru. Bydd hynny’n caniatáu inni ddilyn yr agenda unigryw ar gyfer Cymru a nodwyd yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’.

As laid out in ‘The Learning Country’, we welcome policies to improve early years learning; the transition between primary and secondary schools; establishing a special needs tribunal for Wales, and enabling schools to have more flexibility and to innovate. It is right that many of the provisions contained in the Education Act 2002 allow the Assembly to decide whether or not to proceed with them.

Fel y nodwyd yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’, croesawn bolisïau i wella cyfleoedd dysgu yn y blynyddoedd cynnar; y broses bontio rhwng ysgolion cynradd ac ysgolion uwchradd; sefydlu tribiwnlys anghenion arbennig ar gyfer Cymru, a galluogi ysgolion i fod yn fwy hyblyg ac i arloesi. Mae’n briodol bod llawer o’r darpariaethau a gynhwysir yn Neddf Addysg 2002 yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad benderfynu a ydyw am eu dilyn ai peidio.

There is so much to welcome here, such as the Minister’s emphasis on partnership building. After all, I am in a partnership Government. Working together is the key to improving education, not the conflict agenda presented by the Welsh Conservatives. However, we all look forward to the day when all powers relating to education are devolved to a Welsh senedd, and a Welsh education Bill is drafted and debated in Wales.

Mae cymaint i’w groesawu yma, megis pwyslais y Gweinidog ar ddatblygu partneriaethau. Wedi’r cyfan, yr wyf mewn Llywodraeth bartneriaeth. Mae cydweithio yn rhan allweddol o’r broses o wella addysg, ac nid yr agenda o wrthdaro a gyflwynir gan Geidwadwyr Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae pob un ohonom yn edrych ymlaen at y diwrnod pan fydd yr holl bwerau o ran addysg wedi’u datganoli i senedd Cymru, a phan gaiff Mesur addysg Cymreig ei lunio a’i drafod yng Nghymru.

This motion is filled with the spirit of devolution, of Wales taking a different approach to England and going in the direction that suits our needs.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn llawn o ysbryd datganoli, a’r ffaith bod Cymru yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd wahanol i Loegr ac yn mynd i’r cyfeiriad sy’n diwallu ein hanghenion.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 50

Pan soniwch am ddatganoli pwerau llawn, a ydych, ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn cynnwys cyfrifoldeb a rheolaeth dros gyflogau ac amodau gwaith athrawon?

When you speak of devolving full powers, do you, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, include responsibility and control over teachers’ pay and conditions?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 50

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Thank you for those comments.

Diolch am y sylwadau hynny.

Gareth Jones spoken in English p. 50

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

It was a question.

Cwestiwn ydoedd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 50

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Sorry. Thank you for those comments and questions. The partnership Government has established the Richard commission to examine the Assembly’s powers. I look forward to seeing your contribution and submission to it.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Diolch am y sylwadau a’r cwestiynau hynny. Mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth wedi sefydlu comisiwn Richard i archwilio pwerau’r Cynulliad. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld eich cyfraniad a’ch cyflwyniad iddo.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 50

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Will you take an intervention?

A dderbyniwch ymyriad?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 50

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

In a moment, Jonathan.

Mewn munud, Jonathan.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Order. If Members want to intervene, I would be grateful if they would stand up and indicate that to me, or at least push their button.

Trefn. Os bydd yr Aelodau am ymyrryd, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddent yn sefyll a’m hysbysu, neu o leiaf wasgu eu botwm.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I will take some interventions, but—

Derbyniaf rai ymyriadau, ond—

Helen Mary Jones a gododd—

Helen Mary Jones rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Order. Whose intervention will you take now? Jonathan Morgan and Helen Mary both want to intervene.

Trefn. Pa ymyriad a dderbyniwch bellach? Mae Jonathan Morgan a Helen Mary am ymyrryd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I am sure that they do, but I will proceed for the moment.

Yr wyf yn siŵr eu bod am wneud, ond parhaf am funud.

We are doing things better here than in England. We have already abolished tests for seven-year-olds; reintroduced free school milk at key stage 1; introduced grants for higher and further education students, and we are piloting the Welsh baccalaureate. The partnership Government has shown that education is of the highest priority, with a significant increase in funding—I think that it was 6.1 per cent in real terms last year, and it will be 13 per cent next year. We have also recruited an additional 200 secondary school teachers.

Gwnawn bethau yn well yma nag yn Lloegr. Yr ydym eisoes wedi diddymu’r profion ar gyfer plant saith mlwydd oed; wedi ailgyflwyno llaeth ysgol am ddim yng nghyfnod allweddol 1; wedi cyflwyno grantiau ar gyfer myfyrwyr addysg uwch ac addysg bellach, ac yn cynnal prosiect peilot ar gyfer y fagloriaeth Gymreig. Mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth wedi dangos mai addysg sydd â’r flaenoriaeth uchaf, gyda chynnydd sylweddol mewn cyllid—credaf ei fod yn gynnydd o 6.1 y cant mewn termau gwirioneddol y llynedd, a bydd yn 13 y cant y flwyddyn nesaf. Yr ydym wedi recriwtio 200 o athrawon ysgolion uwchradd ychwanegol hefyd.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 51

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

On that point, will you take an intervention?

Ar y pwynt hwnnw, a dderbyniwch ymyriad?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 51

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

In a moment, Jonathan, please.

Mewn munud, Jonathan, os gwelwch yn dda.

Our vision is one of excellence, but that does not overlook ongoing issues. I will list a few now: how to deal with disaffected pupils; furthering the process of cutting red tape; reducing headteachers’ workloads; achieving greater clarity of funding—and, as usual, I call upon the Minister to ensure that we have a three-year rather than an annual funding process, which currently causes so much anxiety. How local authorities can afford to pay for the increase in employer contributions towards pensions is an emerging issue. The Government is addressing these real issues; every Government must address them. The steps taken here will enable us to achieve more.

Rhagoriaeth yw ein gweledigaeth, ond nid yw’n anwybyddu materion parhaus. Rhestraf ychydig ohonynt yn awr: sut i drin disgyblion sydd wedi’u hymddieithrio; hyrwyddo’r broses o leihau biwrocratiaeth; lleihau baich gwaith penaethiaid; sicrhau eglurder gwell o ran cyllido—ac, fel arfer, galwaf ar y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod gennym broses gyllido tair blynedd yn hytrach na phroses gyllido flynyddol, sy’n peri cymaint o bryder ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r ffordd y gall awdurdodau lleol fforddio talu am y cynnydd mewn cyfraniadau cyflogwyr tuag at bensiynau yn un o’r materion a ddaw i’r amlwg. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn ymdrin â’r materion gwirioneddol hyn; rhaid i bob Llywodraeth ymdrin â hwy. Bydd y camau a gymerir yma yn ein galluogi i gyflawni mwy.

Sorry, Jonathan, I will take your intervention. I forgot for a moment.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Jonathan, derbyniaf eich ymyriad. Anghofiais am hynny am funud.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 52

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am grateful to Mick for giving way. You said in your opening remarks that you want the education system to be completely devolved to Wales, that is, I presume, Westminster having little or no remit over the Welsh education system. Teachers’ pay and conditions, as Gareth Jones highlighted, are part of the education system in Wales. Do you therefore wish to see that aspect of the education system devolved?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Mick am ildio. Bu ichi ddweud yn eich sylwadau agoriadol eich bod am i’r system addysg gael ei datganoli’n llwyr i Gymru, hynny yw, sefyllfa lle nad oes gan San Steffan fawr o gylch gwaith neu ddim cylch gwaith o gwbl dros gyfundrefn addysg Cymru, tybiaf. Mae cyflog ac amodau gwaith athrawon, fel yr amlygodd Gareth Jones, yn rhan o’r gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru. Felly, a ydych am i’r agwedd honno ar y gyfundrefn addysg gael ei datganoli?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

As someone who works in partnership and believes in the principle of working together, I firmly believe that establishing the Richard commission is an appropriate direction for the Assembly. Let us see its conclusions and then debate those issues. You have placed the item on a future agenda, and we will debate it then.

Fel rhywun sy’n gweithio mewn partneriaeth ac sy’n credu yn yr egwyddor o gydweithio, credaf yn gryf fod sefydlu comisiwn Richard yn gyfeiriad priodol i’r Cynulliad. Gadewch inni weld ei gasgliadau ac wedyn trafod y materion hynny. Yr ydych wedi rhoi’r eitem ar agenda yn y dyfodol, ac fe’i trafodwn bryd hynny.

Jane Davidson has previously mentioned in the Chamber that we will not expand the number of faith schools. It is welcome that this partnership Government is not following the English lead in this. The expansion of demand for faith schools in England is not because more parents are regularly attending church and want their children to be taught in a religious environment—after all, congregations continue to decrease in size—but because faith schools are seen as good schools. The partnership Government’s policy in Wales is, rightly, to ensure that all schools are good schools. The danger of faith schools is that they restrict the interaction and integration of children from diverse ethnic and social backgrounds. The operation of such a policy of exclusion on the grounds of religious belief is wrong.

Mae Jane Davidson wedi crybwyll yn y Siambr o’r blaen na fyddwn yn cynyddu’r nifer o ysgolion ffydd. Croesawaf y ffaith nad yw’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon yn dilyn Lloegr yn hyn o beth. Nid oherwydd bod mwy o rieni yn mynd i’r eglwys yn rheolaidd a’u bod am i’w plant gael addysg mewn amgylchedd crefyddol y ceir y galw cynyddol am ysgolion ffydd yn Lloegr—wedi’r cyfan, mae cynulleidfaoedd yn parhau i leihau—ond oherwydd yr ystyrir ysgolion ffydd yn ysgolion da. Polisi’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yng Nghymru yw sicrhau bod pob ysgol yn ysgol dda, a hynny’n briodol. Perygl ysgolion ffydd yw eu bod yn cyfyngu ar y broses o integreiddio plant o gefndiroedd ethnig a chymdeithasol gwahanol a rhyngweithio rhyngddynt. Mae gweithredu polisi o’r fath sy’n allgáu disgyblion oherwydd crefydd yn anghywir.

Helen Mary Jones a David Melding a gododd—

Helen Mary Jones and David Melding rose—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Although I do not have much time left, I will give way to Helen first, then David.

Er nad oes gennyf fawr o amser ar ôl, ildiaf i Helen yn gyntaf, ac wedyn David.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 53

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I have almost forgotten what I was going to say.

Yr wyf bron wedi anghofio’r hyn yr oeddwn yn mynd i’w ddweud.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Sit down, then. I give way to David Melding.

Eisteddwch, ynte. Ildiaf i David Melding.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order. It is the Chair who controls who speaks in the Chamber. However, it is for Members to decide whether they give way. Are you giving way, Mick?

Trefn. Y Cadeirydd sy’n rheoli pwy sy’n siarad yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, yr Aelodau sy’n penderfynu a ydynt am ildio. A ildiwch, Mick?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Yes.

Gwnaf.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 53

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I wish to press you on two questions: do you regret the fact that teachers’ pay and conditions is not a devolved issue and will you support amendment 3? I reassure you that we will make a submission to the Richard commission this side of the election, which is more than your partners can say.

Hoffwn bwyso arnoch ynglŷn â dau gwestiwn: a resynwch y ffaith nad mater datganoledig yw cyflog ac amodau gwaith athrawon ac a gefnogwch welliant 3? Fe’ch sicrhaf y rhoddwn gyflwyniad i gomisiwn Richard cyn yr etholiad, sy’n fwy nag y gall eich partneriaid ei ddweud.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

To save time, I refer you my previous answer to that question in the Record. I give way to David.

I arbed amser, fe’ch cyfeiriaf at fy ateb blaenorol i’r cwestiwn hwnnw yn y Cofnod. Ildiaf i David.

David Melding spoken in English p. 53

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

On faith schools, the Archbishop of Wales, who is soon to be translated to Canterbury, has criticised the Assembly administration for not pursuing the possibility of establishing more faith schools. He is clearly on the left of the spectrum. If a religious order or a particular denomination wanted to take over an inner city sink school, they could probably deliver, with their mission, a much better standard of education. It is surely worth trying.

Ar fater ysgolion ffydd, mae Archesgob Cymru, a drosglwyddir i Gaergaint cyn bo hir, wedi beirniadu gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad am beidio â mynd ar drywydd y posibilrwydd o sefydlu mwy o ysgolion ffydd. Mae’n amlwg ei fod ar ochr chwith y sbectrwm. Os oedd urdd grefyddol neu enwad penodol am ddod yn gyfrifol am ysgol canol dinas sy’n methu, mae’n debyg y gallent gyflwyno addysg o safon llawer gwell, gyda’u cenhadaeth. Rhaid ei bod yn werth rhoi cynnig ar hynny.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I will respond briefly.

Rhoddaf ateb cryno.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order. I have been indulgent in terms of time as 90 minutes have been set aside for this debate.

Trefn. Bûm yn oddefgar o ran amser oherwydd y neilltuwyd 90 munud ar gyfer y drafodaeth hon.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I respect David’s point of view and that of the Church. However, I firmly believe in integration. In the fragile world in which we live, every cause that furthers integration and greater understanding between different social groups is of great benefit. Therefore, I will never fully support anything that breaks down the integration of society.

Parchaf farn David a barn yr Eglwys. Fodd bynnag, credaf yn gryf mewn integreiddio. Yn y byd bregus lle rydym yn byw, mae pob achos sy’n hyrwyddo’r broses o integreiddio a dealltwriaeth well rhwng grwpiau cymdeithasol gwahanol o fudd mawr. Felly, ni chefnogaf unrhyw beth sy’n torri’r broses o integreiddio cymdeithas yn llwyr.

I believe that dialogue, communication and better partnership will solve the problems that have been mentioned. Greater co-operation, not conflict and competition, is the key to building an excellent education system, which is what we want in Wales.

Credaf y bydd deialog, cyfathrebu a phartneriaeth well yn datrys y problemau a grybwyllwyd. Mwy o gydweithio, yn hytrach na gwrthdaro a chystadleuaeth, sy’n allweddol i ddatblygu cyfundrefn addysg ardderchog, sef yr hyn yr ydym am ei gael yng Nghymru.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 54

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

This Education Act, delivered in partnership by the Labour Government in Westminster and the Labour-led Assembly Government, gives us a golden opportunity to shape a better future for education and lifelong learning in Wales. We have a wealth of talent and potential in Wales, which we must translate into opportunity and success. Hard-working children, parents and teachers are ensuring that standards are rising year-on-year, with examination results improving and surpassing those in other areas of the UK.

Rhydd y Ddeddf Addysg hon, a gyflwynir mewn partneriaeth gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o dan arweiniad y Blaid Lafur, gyfle euraid inni lywio dyfodol gwell ar gyfer addysg a dysgu gydol oes yng Nghymru. Mae gennym lawer o ddoniau a photensial yng Nghymru, y mae’n rhaid inni eu troi’n gyfle a llwyddiant. Mae plant, rhieni ac athrawon diwyd yn sicrhau bod safonau yn codi bob blwyddyn, ac mae canlyniadau arholiadau yn gwella ac yn uwch na’r rhai mewn ardaloedd eraill o’r DU.

However, it is not enough for us to offer praise and congratulations. We must create a framework for a successful education system, with proper support and investment for pupils and teachers alike. The Assembly Government has already shown its huge commitment to learning, with substantial budget boosts for student support, teachers’ pay and reduced class sizes. Yesterday’s draft budget reaffirmed the Government’s determination to create a learning country. However, budgets alone are not enough.

Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n ddigon inni ganmol a llongyfarch. Rhaid inni greu fframwaith ar gyfer cyfundrefn addysg lwyddiannus, gyda chymorth a buddsoddiad priodol i ddisgyblion ac athrawon fel ei gilydd. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad eisoes wedi dangos ei hymrwymiad enfawr tuag at ddysgu, gyda symiau mawr yn y gyllideb ar gyfer cymorth i fyfyrwyr, cyflog athrawon a dosbarthiadau llai. Ddoe, ailgadarnhaodd y gyllideb ddrafft benderfyniad y Llywodraeth i greu gwlad sy’n dysgu. Fodd bynnag, nid yw cyllidebau yn unig yn ddigon.

One of the most exciting aspects of the Act is the chance to shape a new curriculum for learning in Wales—a curriculum that meets the distinct needs of the people of Wales. Our comprehensive system has served us well, and I am delighted that the Labour-led Assembly Government has pledged its continued support for it. However, as long as children and young people are falling through the net and leaving school without qualifications, we cannot be complacent about the opportunity for reform. A one-size-fits-all system does not allow all young people to fulfil their potential.

Un o’r agweddau mwyaf cyffrous ar y Ddeddf yw’r cyfle i lywio’r cwricwlwm newydd ar gyfer dysgu yng Nghymru—cwricwlwm sy’n diwallu anghenion penodol pobl Cymru. Mae ein system gyfun wedi ein gwasanaethu’n dda, ac mae’n dda gennyf fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o dan arweiniad y Blaid Lafur wedi addo parhau i’w chefnogi. Fodd bynnag, cyhyd ag y bo plant a phobl ifanc yn cwympo drwy’r rhwyd ac yn gadael yr ysgol heb gymwysterau, ni allwn fod yn hunanfodlon am y cyfle i ddiwygio’r gyfundrefn. Nid yw un gyfundrefn i bawb yn caniatáu i bob person ifanc gyflawni ei botensial llawn.

In England, the Department for Education and Skills has decided to pursue the route of specialist schools. The Assembly Government has rightly decided that this option is not appropriate for us. Ours is a different situation and it is right that we take different decisions, but this Government too must pursue radical innovations and reforms. As I have said, one of our greatest opportunities is to revamp our curriculum so that it meets the needs and unlocks the potential of our young people. I am glad that the Assembly Government is committed to overhauling the 14 to 19 curriculum to give parity of esteem to vocational qualifications and to give learners a broader range of skills and experiences. I look forward to us making this progress but I also hope that we can consider reshaping our key stage 3 provision, and ensure better transition between these stages and the primary stage.

Yn Lloegr, mae’r Adran Addysg a Sgiliau wedi penderfynu mynd ar drywydd ysgolion arbenigol. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi penderfynu nad yw’r opsiwn hwn yn briodol inni, a hynny’n gywir. Mae ein sefyllfa ni yn wahanol ac mae’n briodol ein bod yn gwneud penderfyniadau gwahanol, ond rhaid i’r Llywodraeth hon fynd ar drywydd cynlluniau arloesol a diwygiadau radical hefyd. Fel y dywedais, un o’n cyfleoedd mwyaf yw ailwampio ein cwricwlwm er mwyn iddo ddiwallu anghenion ein pobl ifanc ac yn rhyddhau eu potensial. Mae’n dda gennyf fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymrwymedig i ddiwygio’r cwricwlwm 14 i 19 oed i sicrhau’r un parch i gymwysterau galwedigaethol ac i roi amrywiaeth ehangach o sgiliau a phrofiadau i ddysgwyr. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y cynnydd hwn ond gobeithiaf hefyd y gallwn ystyried ail-lunio ein darpariaeth cyfnod allweddol 3, a sicrhau proses bontio well rhwng y cyfnodau hyn a’r cam cynradd.

Standards in our schools are rising under Labour, but we know that we can do even better. By working together with record investment from the Government, I know that we can meet these challenges and create a learning country where no learner is left behind.

Mae’r safonau yn ein hysgolion yn codi o dan y Blaid Lafur, ond gwyddom y gallwn wneud yn well byth. Drwy weithio ar y cyd gyda’r buddsoddiad mwyaf erioed gan y Llywodraeth, gwn y gallwn ymateb i’r heriau hyn a chreu gwlad sy’n dysgu lle na chaiff yr un dysgwr ei anwybyddu.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.42 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.42 p.m.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 55

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I welcome our partnership improvement to Welsh education, but want to refer to Ysgol John Bright in Llandudno. Following a great deal of consultation over the summer, I have become more concerned about the council’s intention to build the new school on a former gasworks and landfill site. I urge the Minister to discuss this proposal with Sue Essex so that the fears of these extremely concerned parents can be allayed.

Croesawaf welliannau ein partneriaeth i addysg Cymru, ond yr wyf am gyfeirio at Ysgol John Bright yn Llandudno. Yn sgîl llawer iawn o ymgynghori yn ystod yr haf, mae bwriad y cyngor i adeiladu ysgol newydd ar hen safle gwaith nwy a thirlenwi yn peri pryder cynyddol imi. Anogaf y Gweinidog i drafod y cynnig hwn gyda Sue Essex fel y gellir lleddfu ofnau’r rhieni pryderus iawn hyn.

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 55

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh p. 55

Yn ystod y drafodaeth ar y gyllideb ddoe, cododd Glyn Davies gwestiwn diddorol, sef, a yw’r gyllideb hon yn wahanol mewn unrhyw ffordd i’r hyn a fyddai wedi digwydd pe na fyddai’r Cynulliad yn bodoli. Nid oeddwn yn cytuno â’r hyn a ddywedodd, a chredaf mai addysg yw’r enghraifft orau i’w defnyddio i’w ateb, gan fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cyfiawnhau yn glir yr angen am Gynulliad yng Nghaerdydd i ffurfio strategaeth a datblygu gweledigaeth newydd ar gyfer addysg yng Nghymru. Ni fyddai hynny wedi digwydd oni bai am y Cynulliad. Dylem i gyd groesawu hynny, beth bynnag fo ein lliwiau gwleidyddol. Mae’n amlwg imi fod y ddogfen allweddol, ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yn gosod dyfodol cyffrous ar gyfer addysg yng Nghymru, a chroesawaf hynny, ynghyd â’r mesurau sydd yn y Ddeddf hon, a fydd yn caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd.

During yesterday’s debate on the budget, Glyn Davies asked an interesting question, namely, does this budget differ in any way from what would have happened if the Assembly did not exist. I disagreed with him, but I believe that education is the best illustration to use to answer him, as the Assembly Government has clearly justified the need for an Assembly in Cardiff to form strategy and develop a new vision for education in Wales. That would not have happened without the Assembly. We should all welcome that, whatever our political colours. It is clear to me that the key document, ‘The Learning Country’ sets out an exciting future for education in Wales, and I welcome that, along with the measures contained in this Act, which will bring that future to pass.

Mae’r pleidiau eraill yn ein beirniadu—ac mae’n rhaid inni ddisgwyl hynny—ond mae gwelliannau anferth wedi digwydd, a bydd mwy yn digwydd eto, yn ein hysgolion oherwydd mesurau’r Cynulliad. Mae’r rheiny ohonom sydd yn ymweld ag ysgolion ym mhob rhan o Gymru, yn clywed am y gwahaniaethau cadarnahaol sydd wedi digwydd yn sgîl y Cynulliad. Enghraifft o welliant bendigedig ar gyfer athrawon yw’r byrddau gwyn rhyngweithiol a ddarparwyd, sydd yn cyffroi a gwefreiddio disgyblion Cymru i ddysgu. Ceir mwy o adnoddau i wella dysgu, mwy o gefnogaeth i athrawon, ac arian i wella adeiladau. Mae hyn i gyd yn deillio o weledigaeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer dyfodol ein plant yn ein hysgolion.

The other parties criticise us—and we must expect that—but huge changes have taken place, and there are more to come, in our schools because of Assembly measures. Those of us who visit schools in all parts of Wales hear about the positive differences the Assembly has made. An example of a major improvement for teachers is the provision of electronic whiteboards, which inspire and stimulate the pupils of Wales to learn. More resources are available to improve learning, more support is provided for teachers, and money is given to improve buildings. This has all come about as a result of the Assembly’s vision for the future of our school children.

Yr hyn sydd yn bwysig am ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yw ei phwyslais ar y cyfnodau ysgol lle mae angen y mwyaf o waith. Mae gennym ddealltwriaeth newydd o’r anghenion ym myd addysg Cymru; gwyddom am y gwendidau sy’n gofyn am dargedu sylw, ac mae’r Gweinidog a’r Llywodraeth yn ymateb i hynny. Gwyddom fod y blynyddoedd cynnar yn allweddol, ac mae newidiadau cyffrous yn digwydd yn y maes hwn yn awr. Yr ydym yn barod i ystyried yr hyn sydd yn digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill, a bod yn radical yn y ffordd yr ydym yn ystyried yr oedran hwn, a chroesawaf hynny. Mae’r cyfnod symud rhwng addysg gynradd ac addysg uwchradd wedi bod yn wendid yn ein system ers amser. Yr ydym yn ystyried y cyfnod hwn, ynghyd â’r cwricwlwm 14 i 19 oed, ac yn canolbwyntio ar ffyrdd o’u gwella. Yr oeddwn yn ffodus i fod yn bresennol yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes cyn y toriad, pan oedd grŵp o bobl ifanc yn siarad â ni am eu syniadau ar gyfer addysg 14 i 19. Bydd y syniadau hynny yn bwydo i’r newidiadau a fydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru ar gyfer y cyfnod hwn o’r cwricwlwm. Mae’n wych bod y bobl ifanc hyn yn dod â’u syniadau gerbron, a’n bod ni’n gwrando arnynt ac yn eu rhoi ar waith yn ein hysgolion.

The important aspect of ‘The Learning Country’ is its emphasis on the school stages that require the most work. We have a new understanding of the needs of education in Wales; we know where the weaknesses lie, and where we must focus, and the Minister and the Government are reacting to this. We know that the early years are of key importance, and exciting changes are now occurring in this area. We are prepared to consider what is happening in other countries, and become radical in the way in which we consider this age group, which I welcome. The transition period between primary and secondary school has long been a weakness in our system. We are examining this period, along with the 14 to 19 curriculum, and concentrating on ways of improving them. I was fortunate to be present at the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting before the recess, when a group of young people spoke to us about their ideas for 14 to 19 education. These ideas will feed into the changes that will take place in Wales for this curriculum stage. It is fantastic that these young people can propose ideas, and that we listen to them and put them into practice in our schools.

Wrth gwrs bod mwy o waith i’w wneud, a chytunaf â John Griffiths fod rhaid inni dargedu mwy o adnoddau mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig. Mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid eisoes wedi dechrau ystyried hyn. Yn ystod y ddadl ar y gyllideb ddoe, clywsom am gronfa newydd sydd wedi’i seilio ar y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig—cam anferth ymlaen, na fyddai wedi digwydd oni bai bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn gosod blaenoriaethau newydd. Felly, gadewch inni longyfarch y Gweinidog ar y gwaith cyffrous hwn ym maes addysg, ac edrych ymlaen i ddyfodol disglair i’n disgyblion ledled Cymru oherwydd yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn y Cynulliad.

Of course there is more work to be done, and I agree with John Griffiths that we must target more resources on deprived areas. The Finance Minister has already started to consider this. During yesterday’s debate on the budget, we heard about a new fund that will be targeted at the most deprived communities—a huge step forward that would not have happened if the Assembly had not set new priorities. Therefore, let us congratulate the Minister on this exciting work in education, and look forward to a bright future for our pupils across Wales because of what takes place in the Assembly.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 57

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I have enjoyed listening to this debate. I had not intended to speak but the sterling performances of my Conservative colleagues have prompted me to contribute.

Yr wyf wedi mwynhau gwrando ar y ddadl hon. Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu siarad ond mae perfformiadau penigamp fy nghyd-Aelodau Ceidwadol wedi fy ysgogi i gyfrannu.

I was not lucky enough to pass the 11-plus so I attended a secondary modern school, where I received a super education that catered for my needs. We are now failing Wales’s underachievers. Unless we try to understand their needs, we will create a tremendous problem for the future. The secondary education I received was not academic; we were taught technical skills. However, none of us saw ourselves as a failure; we went out into the world with our own skills. This country desperately needs some of those skills that we have lost by removing opportunities for these people.

Nid oeddwn yn ddigon ffodus i lwyddo yn yr arholiad 11-plus ac felly mynychais ysgol uwchradd fodern, lle y cefais addysg wych a ddiwallodd fy anghenion. Yr ydym yn methu tangyflawnwyr Cymru ar hyn o bryd. Oni cheisiwn ddeall eu hanghenion, byddwn yn creu problem enfawr ar gyfer y dyfodol. Nid oedd yr addysg uwchradd a gefais yn academaidd; dysgwyd sgiliau technegol inni. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd yr un ohonom yn ystyried ein hunain yn fethiant; aethom allan i’r byd gyda’n sgiliau ein hunain. Mae angen dybryd taer ar y wlad hon am rai o’r sgiliau hynny a gollwyd drwy ddileu’r cyfleoedd i’r bobl hyn.

Far too many children are excluded from school, which leads to anti-social behaviour, lack of discipline, vandalism on the streets and the other problems that we see in this country. This is because we have not found a role for these children. Every one of them has ability and we must recognise that. You can see the greatest example of this in people attending drug and alcohol rehabilitation centres. When they get back on the right track, they show that they have talents. We failed to recognise those talents when they were in school and that is the lesson that the National Assembly must learn. Let us ensure that we have an education system for everyone in Wales, and not just the bright children.

Caiff llawer gormod o bobl eu gwahardd o’r ysgol, gan arwain at ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol, diffyg disgyblaeth, fandaliaeth ar y strydoedd a’r problemau eraill a welwn yn y wlad hon. Y rheswm dros hyn yw nad ydym wedi dod o hyd i rôl ar gyfer y plant hyn. Mae gallu gan bob un ohonynt a rhaid inni gydnabod hynny. Gallwch weld yr enghraifft fwyaf o hyn yn y bobl sy’n mynychu canolfannau ailsefydlu cyffuriau ac alcohol. Pan ddychwelant ar y trywydd cywir, dangosant fod ganddynt ddoniau. Ni chydnabuom y doniau hynny pan oeddent yn yr ysgol a dyna’r wers y mae’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei dysgu. Gadewch inni sicrhau bod gennym gyfundrefn addysg ar gyfer pawb yng Nghymru, ac nid y disgyblion galluog yn unig.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 58

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I had not intended to speak either, but I was moved by that contribution. I found myself agreeing to a great extent with Blaster Bates, which is unusual, as you know. Having listened to the bilge coming from the Conservatives from the start of this debate, I felt that something had to be said. We are reminded of the Conservative Party’s pre-devolution colonial approach—we all remember it well. We have heard about it again from Peter Rogers—the Assembly will not be so colourful next year after he has gone, but it will mean one less millionaire with a lottery ticket in the Tory group—and we all remember what it was like. We also heard David Davies tell us that he was middle class and fortunate. That is right—if you were not fortunate you went on the scrap heap. That was the way the Tories dealt with the issue. That is why we wanted a comprehensive system to give people opportunities.

Nid oeddwn innau wedi bwriadu siarad ychwaith, ond gwnaeth y cyfraniad hwnnw argraff arnaf. Cefais fy hun yn cytuno i raddau helaeth â Blaster Bates, sy’n beth anghyffredin, fel y gwyddoch. Ar ôl gwrando ar y malu awyr ar ran y Ceidwadwyr ers dechrau’r ddadl hon, credwn fod rhaid dweud rhywbeth. Cawn ein hatgoffa o ymagwedd wladychol y Blaid Geidwadol cyn datganoli—mae pob un ohonom yn ei chofio’n dda. Clywsom amdani eto gan Peter Rogers—ni fydd y Cynulliad mor lliwgar y flwyddyn nesaf ar ôl iddo adael, ond golyga y bydd miliwnydd yn llai gyda thocyn y loteri yn y grŵp Torïaidd—ac mae pob un ohonom yn cofio sut yr oedd hi. Clywsom David Davies hefyd yn dweud wrthym ei fod yn dod o’r dosbarth canol a’i fod yn ffodus. Mae hynny’n gywir—os nad oeddech yn ffodus, fe’ch taflwyd ar y domen. Dyna’r ffordd yr ymdriniodd y Torïaid â’r mater. Dyna pam ein bod am gael system gyfun i roi cyfleoedd i bobl.

David Davies spoken in English p. 58

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

What the Member does not seem to realise, or does not want to realise, is that, at present, many children who may not be academically gifted get left behind in school because they cannot keep up with the work. They then start to mess around in the classroom, as that is the only way they can gain attention. This prevents other children—often from poor backgrounds—from working, and that creates a vicious circle. The people who cannot succeed in schools are being failed at present because they do not have the academic skills to deal with those—

Yr hyn nad yw’r Aelod yn ei sylweddoli yn ôl pob tebyg, neu’r hyn nad yw am ei sylweddoli, yw yr aiff llawer o blant nad ydynt yn ddawnus yn academaidd ar ei hôl hi yn yr ysgol ar hyn o bryd am na allant ymdopi â’r gwaith. Yna dechreuant gamymddwyn yn yr ystafell ddosbarth, gan mai dyna’r unig ffordd y gallant gael sylw. Mae hyn yn atal plant eraill—o gefndiroedd tlawd yn aml—rhag gweithio, gan greu cylch dieflig. Caiff y bobl na allant lwyddo yn yr ysgol eu methu ar hyn o bryd am nad oes ganddynt y sgiliau academaidd i ddelio â—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Order. This is an intervention, David.

Trefn. Ymyriad yw hwn, David.

David Davies spoken in English p. 59

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

They do not have the academic skills to deal with those problems, and the children with the academic skills are being held back.

Nid oes ganddynt y sgiliau academaidd i ddelio â’r problemau hynny, a chaiff y plant â’r sgiliau academaidd eu dal yn ôl.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 59

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I disagree with that; it is a distortion of reality. We are all aware of the initiatives introduced by the Minister and her predecessors since the establishment of the National Assembly. They have been good for Wales. You conveniently forget that the people of Wales—not the Tories of course—voted for this National Assembly. They voted for us to be able to control our decisions on educational policies. You sit here at the taxpayer’s expense and try to undermine everything that is being done in the interests of the children of Wales. We have a vibrant Government and a proactive Minister, visiting schools in all constituencies and working to encourage schools and teachers. She is doing all that she can to improve academic standards. Yet we have to listen to all this bilge because you want to make political points. This is not reality. By the way, we have decided that David Jones has a posher voice than David Melding, so he has lost his place.

Anghytunaf â hynny; mae’n gwyrdroi’r realiti. Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybodol o’r mentrau a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog a’i rhagflaenwyr ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Buont er budd Cymru. Mae’n gyfleus ichi anghofio i bobl Cymru—nid y Torïaid wrth gwrs—bleidleisio dros y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn. Pleidleisiwyd inni allu rheoli ein penderfyniadau o ran polisïau addysgol. Yr ydych yn eistedd yma ar draul trethdalwyr gan geisio tanseilio popeth a wneir er budd plant Cymru. Mae gennym Lywodraeth fywiog a Gweinidog rhagweithiol, sy’n ymweld ag ysgolion ym mhob etholaeth ac yn gweithio i annog ysgolion ac athrawon. Gwna bopeth yn ei gallu i wella safonau academaidd. Eto, rhaid inni wrando ar yr holl falu awyr hyn am eich bod am ennill pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Nid y realiti yw hyn. Gyda llaw, yr ydym wedi penderfynu bod gan David Jones lais mwy crand na David Melding, ac felly mae wedi colli ei le.

We will never forget what the Tories did to education or to communities. We all know that you do not believe in devolution, so you would rubbish it. The people of Wales know that the Government of Wales is working hard to increase academic standards and to provide a future. I even listened to Mick Bates this afternoon, who mentioned several initiatives in the interest of children in Wales that were introduced as a result of devolution. Therefore, we do not want the colonial approach because it would be a backwards move and would tie us to England, which is not necessarily right. David Davies’s approach is typical: asylum seekers—burn them; if children do not perform in school—burn them. If you cannot perform, there is no place for you. Our approach is different; yours has always been the same, and we have listened to it, to your disgrace, time and time again.

Ni anghofiwn byth yr hyn a wnaeth y Torïaid i addysg nag i gymunedau. Gŵyr pob un ohonom na chredwch mewn datganoli, ac felly mae’n naturiol ichi ei ddifrïo. Gŵyr pobl Cymru fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio’n galed i wella safonau academaidd ac i ddarparu dyfodol. Gwrandewais ar Mick Bates hyd yn oed y prynhawn yma, a grybwyllodd sawl menter er budd plant yng Nghymru a gyflwynwyd o ganlyniad i ddatganoli. Felly, nid ydym am gael yr ymagwedd wladychol oherwydd y byddai’n gam yn ôl a byddai’n ein clymu wrth Loegr, nad yw’n briodol o anghenraid. Mae ymagwedd David Davies yn nodweddiadol: ceiswyr lloches—llosgwch hwy; os nad yw plant yn cyflawni yn yr ysgol—llosgwch hwy. Os na allwch gyflawni, nid oes lle ichi. Mae ein hymagwedd ni yn wahanol; bu eich ymagwedd chi bob amser yr un peth, ac yr ydym wedi gwrando arni, er cywilydd i chi, dro ar ôl tro.

Gareth Jones spoken in English p. 60

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

You slipped in something about not being tied to England, so does that mean that you would also agree with the Plaid Cymru policy and devolve teachers’ pay and conditions of service to Wales?

Gwnaethoch grybwyll rhywbeth am beidio â chael eich clymu wrth Loegr, ac felly a olyga hynny y byddech yn cytuno â pholisi Plaid Cymru hefyd gan ddatganoli cyflogau ac amodau gwaith athrawon i Gymru?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 60

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

No, I would not do so now. That is not part of this Bill. This Bill enables our Minister to further improve standards for Wales. We should applaud and welcome it instead of picking off bits and pieces, trying to make political points. There is no doubt that this Education Bill is in the interest of Wales. The Conservatives are not in the interest of Wales and the public knows the realities. The Conservatives have failed us too many times.

Na fyddwn, ni fyddwn yn gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw hynny’n rhan o’r Mesur hwn. Mae’r Mesur hwn yn galluogi ein Gweinidog i wella safonau yng Nghymru ymhellach. Dylem ei gymeradwyo a’i groesawu yn lle beirniadu mân bethau, gan geisio ennill pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Yn ddiamau, mae’r Mesur Addysg hwn er budd Cymru. Nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr er budd Cymru a gŵyr y cyhoedd y realiti. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi ein methu yn rhy aml.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 60

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

You are right that we should have had a debate on the Education Bill, but in her vice-regal way, Jane Davidson would not allow it. The Bill is now an Education Act. If we are talking about behaving like people under the old colonial system, there is no better example than the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. Peter, how we miss you on the frontbench. You actually have some fire in your belly and say sensible things. However, if the truth be told, it was your Prime Minister who spoke about a post-comprehensive system, not the Conservatives. We are talking about diversity and choice—

Yr ydych yn gywir i ddweud y dylem fod wedi cael dadl ar y Mesur Addysg, ond yn ei ffordd raglawol, ni fyddai Jane Davidson yn ei chaniatáu. Mae’r Mesur bellach yn Ddeddf Addysg. Os siaradwn am ymddwyn fel pobl o dan yr hen system wladychol, nid oes enghraifft well na’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Peter, cymaint yr ydym yn eich colli ar y fainc flaen. Yr ydych yn ymladd yn frwd ac yn dweud pethau call. Fodd bynnag, i ddweud y gwir, eich Prif Weinidog chi a siaradodd am y system ôl-gyfun, nid y Ceidwadwyr. Yr ydym ni yn siarad am amrywiaeth a dewis—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Order. This is an intervention.

Trefn. Ymyriad yw hwn.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 60

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

He is trying to demonstrate value for money from the Tory benches after I exposed them as being here on a freebie. Yesterday, a Conservative Member said that he was here for a six-month holiday.

Mae’n ceisio dangos gwerth am arian o du meinciau’r Torïaid ar ôl imi ddatgelu eu bod yma i gael rhywbeth am ddim. Ddoe, dywedodd un Aelod o’r Blaid Geidwadol ei fod yma am chwe mis o wyliau.

We all heard what David Davies said. We know where the Conservatives are coming from and we know who to trust with our educational standards. Believe you me, the Minister has the right approach and the children’s welfare at heart. The Assembly is moving forward in the interest of education for all the children of Wales.

Clywodd pob un ohonom yr hyn a ddywedodd David Davies. Gwyddom safbwynt y Ceidwadwyr a gwyddom i bwy y gallwn ymddiried ein safonau addysgol. Credwch chi fi, mae gan y Gweinidog yr ymagwedd gywir a phrydera am les y plant. Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithio er budd addysg pob plentyn yng Nghymru.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 61

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Thank you for your contributions. What Assembly Members have demonstrated is that they all have fire in their bellies over education, as they should. There is no more important agenda in Wales. I have always believed that education is the route out of poverty to a better quality of life. With the Education Act provisions, we are trying to secure a way of taking that forward.

Diolch am eich cyfraniadau. Yr hyn y mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi dangos yw bod pob un ohonynt yn ymladd yn frwd dros addysg, fel y dylent ei wneud. Nid oes agenda bwysicach yng Nghymru. Yr wyf bob amser wedi credu mai addysg yw’r ffordd o ddianc tlodi i gael ansawdd bywyd gwell. Gyda darpariaethau’r Ddeddf Addysg, ceisiwn sicrhau ffordd o wireddu hynny.

I am sorry that Jonathan continues to state that there has been no consultation. The consultation on ‘The Learning Country’ laid out this agenda in full. There were over 300 responses to it. We took into account the views of many people in terms of framing the legislation. We considered everything that was in the draft Bill in Committee. The opportunity to influence direction of the Bill was given to, and was taken, by Committee Members. Assembly procedure means that Members must be consulted upon every piece of legislation, whereas a Secretary of State can make regulations without consultation. There is every opportunity for Members to be involved in the scrutiny of all regulations through our procedures.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fod Jonathan yn parhau i ddweud na fu dim ymgynghori. Nododd yr ymgynghoriad ar ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yr agenda hon yn llawn. Cafwyd dros 300 o ymatebion iddo. Ystyriwyd barn llawer o bobl wrth lunio’r ddeddfwriaeth. Ystyriwyd popeth a oedd yn y Mesur drafft yn y Pwyllgor. Yr oedd hwn yn gyfle i ddylanwadu ar gyfeiriad y Mesur, ac fe’i cymerwyd gan Aelodau’r Pwyllgor. Golyga gweithdrefn y Cynulliad fod yn rhaid ymgynghori â’r Aelodau ar bob darn o ddeddfwriaeth, ond y gall Ysgrifennydd Gwladol wneud rheoliadau heb ymgynghori. Caiff yr Aelodau bob cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y broses o graffu ar bob rheoliad drwy ein gweithdrefnau.

I particularly disagree with two of our your points, Jonathan, and this emphasises the fundamental difference between the Conservatives and everyone else in this Chamber. First, you talked about children being restricted to local schools. We believe in local schools, and, when I say that, I know that I am speaking on behalf of three of the parties in the Assembly. We believe in community support. We do not believe in the naming and shaming of communities, which your party introduced. You mentioned restricting the curriculum—and that at a time when we have ensured, through this legislation, that the people of Wales now have responsibility for the curriculum. We are considering exciting ways of expanding opportunities in the curriculum, not least in terms of new qualifications such as the Welsh baccalaureate.

Anghytunaf yn benodol â dau o’ch pwyntiau, Jonathan, a phwysleisia hyn y gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng y Ceidwadwyr a phawb arall yn y Siambr hon. Yn gyntaf, gwnaethoch siarad am blant a gyfyngir i ysgolion lleol. Credwn mewn ysgolion lleol, a phan ddywedaf hynny, gwn fy mod yn siarad ar ran tair plaid yn y Cynulliad. Credwn mewn cefnogaeth gymunedol. Ni chredwn mewn enwi a chywilyddio cymunedau, a gyflwynwyd gan eich plaid. Gwnaethoch grybwyll cyfyngu’r cwricwlwm—a hynny ar adeg pan yr ydym wedi sicrhau, drwy’r ddeddfwriaeth hon, fod gan bobl Cymru bellach gyfrifoldeb dros y cwricwlwm. Ystyriwn ffyrdd cyffrous o ehangu’r cyfleoedd yn y cwricwlwm, er enghraifft o ran cymwysterau newydd megis y fagloriaeth Gymreig.

I am sorry that you are so ill-informed about our education agenda in Wales that you have not realised that England did not reach its key stage 2 targets, but that we did. As the education spokesperson, you did not even know that. We met our key stage 2 targets in full. Eleven-year-olds in Wales delivered, and you did not know about it.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf bod cyn lleied o wybodaeth gennych am ein hagenda addysg yng Nghymru fel nad ydych wedi sylweddoli na chyrhaeddodd Lloegr ei thargedau ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 2, ond i ni eu cyrraedd. Fel y llefarydd addysg, ni wyddoch hynny hyd yn oed. Bu inni gyrraedd ein targedau ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 2 yn llwyr. Llwyddodd plant 11 mlwydd oed yng Nghymru, ac ni wyddoch am hynny.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 62

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

You did not meet your targets.

Ni chyraeddasoch eich targedau chi.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 62

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

We did not meet our targets for key stage 3, but you said key stage 2 and 3. We have ambitious targets for key stage 3, and we are moving in the right direction to meet them. I would have thought that everyone here would want to see that continue.

Ni wnaethom gyrraedd ein targedau ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 3, ond gwnaethoch gyfeirio at gyfnod allweddol 2 a 3. Mae gennym dargedau uchelgeisiol ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 3, a symudwn i’r cyfeiriad cywir er mwyn eu cyrraedd. Byddem wedi disgwyl y byddai pawb yma yn dymuno i hynny barhau.

Jonathan also raised points about bureaucracy. That is a real issue, but I was heartened, when I met representatives of teachers’ associations this week, to find that people think that the Assembly is now doing a good job on bureaucracy. We must still tackle bureaucracy in the other agencies, particularly non-devolved agencies such as the Home Office, which require additional information.

Cododd Jonathan bwyntiau am fiwrocratiaeth hefyd. Mae hynny’n fater gwirioneddol, ond cododd fy nghalon, pan gyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr cymdeithasau’r athrawon yr wythnos hon, gan y ffaith bod pobl o’r farn bod y Cynulliad bellach yn gwneud gwahaniaeth o ran biwrocratiaeth. Rhaid inni barhau i fynd i’r afael â biwrocratiaeth yn yr asiantaethau eraill, yn enwedig asiantaethau nas datganolwyd megis y Swyddfa Gartref, y mae angen mwy o wybodaeth arnynt.

David Davies spoken in English p. 62

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 62

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I will not, because I must get through Members’ responses. I gave way to you at the beginning of this debate, David, and you have already contributed to it three times.

Na wnaf, gan fod rhaid imi ymdrin ag ymatebion yr Aelodau. Ildiais ichi ar ddechrau’r ddadl hon, David, ac yr ydych eisoes wedi cyfrannu ati deirgwaith.

Our advisory group is working on guidance to ensure that we deliver on that agenda. Next week, Estelle Morris and I will jointly announce what has come out of that in terms of the workload issues.

Mae ein grŵp ymgynghorol yn paratoi canllawiau i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud gwahaniaeth o ran yr agenda honno. Yr wythnos nesaf, bydd Estelle Morris a minnau yn cyhoeddi ar y cyd yr hyn a ddeilliodd o hynny o ran materion baich gwaith.

I turn to Helen Mary Jones’s contribution. I am glad that she welcomed the additional powers in the Act. It is important that we consider the recruitment, retention and morale of teachers. I am sure that all Education and Lifelong Learning Committee members share that view. Some of our work, such as that on early years education, professional development, and the Wales-only mechanisms for continuous professional development, has proved popular and is taking that agenda forward. I said that these were the first primary legislative steps and I realise, Helen, that you were not on the Committee when we considered ‘The Learning Country’. That is an agenda for education and lifelong learning to 2010, whereas, this legislation covers schools. Therefore, I have used this legislation for the agenda relating to schools.

Trof at gyfraniad Helen Mary Jones. Mae’n dda gennyf iddi groesawu’r pwerau ychwanegol yn y Ddeddf. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried materion yn ymwneud â recriwtio a chadw athrawon a’u morâl. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pob aelod o’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cyd-fynd â hynny. Bu rhywfaint o’n gwaith, megis gwaith ar addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar, datblygiad proffesiynol, a dulliau datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus i Gymru yn unig, yn boblogaidd ac mae wedi datblygu’r agenda honno. Dywedais mai’r rhain oedd y camau cyntaf o ran deddfwriaeth sylfaenol a sylweddolaf, Helen, nad oeddech yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor pan ystyriwyd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’. Dyna agenda ar gyfer addysg a dysgu gydol oes hyd at 2010, tra bod y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn cwmpasu ysgolion. Felly, defnyddiais y ddeddfwriaeth hon ar gyfer yr agenda sy’n ymwneud ag ysgolion.

I am glad that you are strongly in favour of the comprehensive principle. As I said in my introduction, I have asked the Audit Commission to consider the issue of funding formulae across Wales. The narrowing-the-gap agenda, which the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee has been working on, is about how to ensure that pupils in our most deprived schools perform better than the expectation of deprivation would suggest. That has been important, and we will say more about that shortly. Money has been put into the budget for that.

Mae’n dda gennyf eich bod yn cefnogi’r egwyddor gyfun yn frwd. Fel y dywedais yn fy nghyflwyniad, gofynnais i’r Comisiwn Archwilio ystyried y mater o fformiwlâu cyllido ledled Cymru. Mae’r agenda o ran lleihau’r bwlch, y bu’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gweithio arni, yn ymwneud â sut i sicrhau bod y disgyblion yn ein hysgolion mwyaf difreintiedig yn cyflawni’n well na’r disgwyl yn ôl amddifadedd. Bu hynny’n bwysig, a dywedaf ragor am hynny yn fuan. Rhoddwyd arian yn y gyllideb ar gyfer hynny.

On the subject of A-level grading, I am delighted to say that the performance of the Welsh Joint Education Committee and the Qualifications Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales this summer has been exemplary.

O ran graddau’r arholiadau Safon Uwch, mae’n bleser gennyf ddweud y bu perfformiad Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ac Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru yn ystod yr haf yn benigamp.

I will pick up some broad points about transition, budget fora and partnership agreements. As Delyth Evans outlined, there is a weakness in the system in terms of transition. Primary and secondary schools throughout Wales acknowledge that, but they also acknowledge that, where they have used the additional money that we have provided to find positive ways of addressing that weakness, teachers have been enthused, changes made to pedagogical practice and curricular and pastoral links created between primary and secondary schools.

Codaf rai pwyntiau bras am bontio, fforymau cyllideb a chytundebau partneriaeth. Fel yr amlinellodd Delyth Evans, ceir gwendid yn y system o ran pontio. Mae ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd ledled Cymru yn cydnabod hynny, ond cydnabyddant hefyd fod athrawon wedi bod yn fwy brwdfrydig, i arfer addysgol newid, ac i gysylltiadau cwricwlaidd a bugeiliol gael eu creu rhwng ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd yn sgîl yr arian ychwanegol a ddarparwyd gennym i ystyried ffyrdd cadarnhaol o ymdrin â’r gwendid hwnnw.

I welcome what Gareth said about school governors. They are important and there are 24,000 of them in Wales. We support Governors Wales; we have introduced a helpline for governors and a governors excellence programme, and we are working with local authorities to provide training and support for governors.

Croesawaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Gareth am lywodraethwyr ysgolion. Maent yn bwysig ac mae 24,000 ohonynt yng Nghymru. Cefnogwn Lywodraethwyr Cymru; yr ydym wedi cyflwyno llinell gymorth i lywodraethwyr a rhaglen ragoriaeth i lywodraethwyr, a chydweithiwn ag awdurdodau lleol i ddarparu hyfforddiant a chefnogaeth i lywodraethwyr.

The budget fora are important tools for getting the funding mechanisms right in partnership with local authorities. We have three-year indicative budgets, but we will continue to work to firm up information as much as possible. My education budget increases by 30 per cent over three years as part of the Assembly Government’s commitment to education.

Mae’r fforymau cyllideb yn bwysig er mwyn sicrhau’r dulliau ariannu cywir mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol. Mae cyllidebau arwyddol tair blynedd gennym, ond byddwn yn parhau i weithio i gadarnhau gwybodaeth gymaint â phosibl. Mae fy nghyllideb addysg yn cynyddu 30 y cant dros dair blynedd fel rhan o ymrwymiad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i addysg.

I will turn briefly to David Davies’s and Peter Rogers’s contributions. David, you are right to identify issues with basic skills, which are important to us all. That is why we have decided on an all-age basic skills strategy in Wales. I was speaking yesterday to people who deliver basic skills to the youngest members of our society. They told me that they were excited about how we are taking this agenda forward in Wales. You talk about a high standard of education for all children; so do I. You talk about good comprehensive schools; so do I. You talk about narrowing the gap in performance; so do I. You talk about raising standards; so do I. You have a different vision as to how to deliver those aims, but we share the same agenda of wanting to provide opportunities to the people of Wales.

Trof yn fyr at gyfraniadau David Davies a Peter Rogers. David, yr ydych yn gywir i nodi materion o ran sgiliau sylfaenol, sy’n bwysig i bob un ohonom. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi penderfynu ar strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol pob oedran yng Nghymru. Siaradwn ddoe â phobl sy’n cyflwyno’r sgiliau sylfaenol i aelodau ieuengaf ein cymdeithas. Bu iddynt ddweud wrthyf fod y ffordd yr ydym yn datblygu’r agenda hon yng Nghymru yn gyffrous. Yr ydych yn siarad am addysg o safon uchel i bob plentyn; a minnau hefyd. Yr ydych yn siarad am ysgolion cyfun da; a minnau hefyd. Yr ydych yn siarad am leihau’r bwlch mewn perfformiad; a minnau hefyd. Yr ydych yn siarad am godi safonau; a minnau hefyd. Mae gennych weledigaeth wahanol o ran sut i gyflwyno’r nodau hynny, ond rhannwn yr un agenda, sef yr awydd i roi cyfle i bobl Cymru.

However, I do not accept your utter denigration of the hard work carried out by comprehensive schools in Wales. Not only do those schools want to remain comprehensive, they believe that that system enables them to deliver to their strengths. That view is held across the board and it is why schools have rejected the Conservatives’ philosophy.

Fodd bynnag, ni dderbyniaf eich enllib llwyr ar y gwaith caled a wna ysgolion cyfun yng Nghymru. Mae’r ysgolion hynny nid yn unig am barhau i fod yn ysgolion cyfun, ond credant fod y gyfundrefn yn eu galluogi i gyflawni yn ôl eu cryfderau. Dyna’r farn yn gyffredinol a dyna pam mae ysgolion wedi gwrthod athroniaeth y Ceidwadwyr.

We have shown that education is one of the Assembly’s highest priorities. We can achieve this agenda through co-operation. As Janice Gregory said, our achievement is already high, but it must be higher. We must have the right frameworks in place. We must consider curricular issues. We are already doing that, but we are also considering exciting ways to change the curriculum to make it more appropriate for all pupils.

Yr ydym wedi dangos bod addysg yn un o brif flaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad. Gallwn gyflwyno’r agenda hon drwy gydweithio. Fel y dywedodd Janice Gregory, mae ein cyflawniad eisoes yn uchel, ond rhaid iddo fod yn uwch. Rhaid inni sefydlu’r fframweithiau cywir. Rhaid inni ystyried materion cwricwlaidd. Gwnawn hynny eisoes, ond ystyriwn hefyd ffyrdd cyffrous o newid y cwricwlwm i sicrhau ei fod yn fwy priodol i bob disgybl.

A concern, which I am sure everyone in this Chamber shares, is that approximately 1,000 pupils leave school at the age of 16 without qualifications. That is a manageable number in Wales, because we are a small country, but it is 1,000 too many. That is why we need to generate new forms of education and support for vocational education so that everyone in Wales can play to their strengths, as Peter said.

Un o’r materion sy’n peri pryder, yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb yn y Siambr yn ei rannu, yw bod tua 1,000 o ddisgyblion yn gadael yr ysgol yn 16 oed heb gymwysterau. Mae’n nifer hydrin yng Nghymru, gan mai gwlad fach ydym, ond mae 1,000 yn rhy uchel. Dyna pam bod angen inni greu mathau newydd o addysg a chefnogaeth i addysg alwedigaethol fel y gall pawb yng Nghymru weithio yn ôl eu cryfderau, fel y dywedodd Peter.

Peter Rogers a gododd—

Peter Rogers rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Order. The Minister is winding up.

Trefn. Daw’r Gweinidog i ben.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 65

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Finally, this education agenda would not have happened without the Assembly. Let us fully embrace it and have the courage to welcome an important agenda that will benefit the children of Wales. This agenda will not only be delivered by the Assembly Government. The Assembly Government will provide the legislation to take into account all of the aspirations of the people of Wales expressed during my time as Minister.

I gloi, ni fyddai’r agenda addysg hon wedi digwydd heb y Cynulliad. Gadewch inni ei derbyn yn frwd a bod yn ddigon dewr i groesawu agenda bwysig a fydd o fudd i blant Cymru. Nid cyflwyno’r agenda hon yn unig fydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn darparu’r ddeddfwriaeth i ystyried holl ddyheadau pobl Cymru a fynegwyd yn ystod fy nghyfnod fel Gweinidog.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 65

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Point of order. I should have declared an interest as a registered teacher earlier, I wish to do so now.

Pwynt o drefn. Dylwn fod wedi datgan buddiant fel athrawes gofrestredig yn gynharach, hoffwn wneud hynny yn awr.

Nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad a gododd—

Several Assembly Members rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Order. Will Members who wish to declare an interest please stand up so that officials can note their names. I note that Geraint Davies, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Janet Ryder, Mike German, Jenny Randerson, Peter Black, Lorraine Barrett and John Griffiths have declared interests.

Trefn. A fydd yr Aelodau sydd am ddatgan buddiant sefyll fel y gall y swyddogion nodi eu henwau. Nodaf fod Geraint Davies, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Owen John Thomas, Janet Ryder, Mike German, Jenny Randerson, Peter Black, Lorraine Barrett a John Griffiths wedi datgan buddiant.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 65

Pwynt o drefn. Hoffwn i’r ffaith bod tri Aelod o Blaid Cymru wedi gwneud cais i siarad yn y ddadl hon gael ei chofnodi. A yw hi’n briodol i dri Aelod o’r Blaid Geidwadol a dau Aelod o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gael siarad, ond dim ond dau Aelod o brif wrthblaid y Cynulliad? Cydnabu dau siaradwr nad oeddent wedi bwriadu siarad yn y ddadl tan i’r mater gymryd rhyw fath o feddiant ohonynt ar y pryd, tra fy mod i wedi paratoi ar gyfer y ddadl. Teimlaf yn gryf y bu camwri y prynhawn yma yn nhermau trefn y siaradwyr yn y ddadl hon.

Point of order. I would like to put on record the fact that three Plaid Cymru members requested to speak in this debate. Is it appropriate that three Conservative Party Members and two Liberal Democrat Members were allowed to speak, but only two Members of the Assembly’s main opposition party? Two Members acknowledged that they had not intended to speak in the debate until the urge took them, whereas I had prepared for the debate. I feel strongly that there has been an injustice this afternoon in terms of the order of the speakers in this debate.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

These matters are normally dealt with outside Plenary, and it is unseemly for us to debate whom I or the Presiding Officer choose to call to speak. I was aware that everybody who wanted to speak could do so. I was at fault in your case, Cynog. I now see your name here in front of me, but I did not decipher it at the time. I apologise for that, but I did not know that anyone else wanted to speak. As far as I was aware, everybody who wanted to speak was able to do so. I would have called you had I looked more closely at the piece of paper in front of me, and I apologise for not doing so.

Ymdrinnir â’r materion hyn y tu allan i’r Cyfarfod Llawn fel arfer, ac nid yw’n weddus inni drafod pwy yr wyf fi neu’r Llywydd yn dewis eu galw i siarad. Yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol y gallai pawb a oedd am siarad wneud hynny. Yr oeddwn ar fai yn eich achos chi, Cynog. Gwelaf eich enw yma o’m blaen yn awr, ond ni welais ef ar y pryd. Ymddiheuraf am hynny, ond ni wyddwn fod neb arall am siarad. Cyhyd ag yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol, gallai pawb a oedd am siarad wneud hynny. Byddwn wedi eich galw pe byddwn wedi edrych ar y darn o bapur o’m blaen yn fanylach, ac ymddiheuraf am beidio â gwneud hynny.

Gwelliant 1 Jonathan Morgan t. 66

Amendment 1 Jonathan Morgan p. 66

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 45

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 2 Jonathan Morgan t. 67

Amendment 2 Jonathan Morgan p. 67

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 45

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 3 Helen Mary Jones t. 68

Amendment 3 Helen Mary Jones p. 68

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 40

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (40)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 4 Jonathan Morgan t. 68

Amendment 4 Jonathan Morgan p. 68

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 31

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 5 Helen Mary Jones t. 69

Amendment 5 Helen Mary Jones p. 69

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 39

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (39)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 6 Jonathan Morgan t. 70

Amendment 6 Jonathan Morgan p. 70

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 45

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 7 Helen Mary Jones t. 71

Amendment 7 Helen Mary Jones p. 71

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30

Gwthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cynnig NDM1172 Jane Davidson t. 72

Motion NDM1172 Jane Davidson p. 72

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 9

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers

Cynnig NNDM1174 Jane Davidson t. 73

Motion NNDM1174 Jane Davidson p. 73

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 54 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (54)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar TGCh yng Nghymru Wledig

The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s Report on ICT in Rural Wales

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 74

Glyn Davies spoken in Welsh p. 74

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Glyn Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 74

Glyn Davies (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 74

Gallai defnyddio technoleg wneud cryn wahaniaeth i lawer o wasanaethau a swyddi yn ein cymunedau gwledig. Yn benodol, gallai datblygu technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu helpu i oresgyn yr anfanteision traddodiadol, megis bod ar yr ymylon a phellter, sy’n wynebu cymunedau a busnesau gwledig.

The use of technology can make a significant difference to many services and jobs in our rural communities. Specifically, the development of information and communications technology can help to overcome the traditional disadvantages, such as being on the fringes and distance, which face rural communities and businesses.

Er hynny, ni ddaw’r manteision hynny ar unwaith gan mai’r ardaloedd trefol sydd fel arfer yn denu’r farchnad i ddarparu isadeiledd a gwasanaethau o ansawdd da gan fod y galw amdanynt yn fwy o lawer yno. Heb strategaeth gydlynol wedi’i theilwra, mae perygl y bydd datblygiadau TGCh yn agor y bwlch economaidd rhwng yr ardaloedd gwledig a threfol yng Nghymru. Bydd yn rhatach a haws i unigolion, cymunedau a busnesau mewn ardaloedd trefol ddefnyddio’r dechnoleg ddiweddaraf, tra bydd pobl yr ardaloedd gwledig ar ei hôl hi. Mae technoleg yn gwneud camau breision ac mae’r bwlch, felly, yn prysur agor. Felly, lluniodd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yr adroddiad hwn ar ddarparu TGCh yng nghefn gwlad Cymru.

However, those advantages will not be seen immediately, as it is urban areas that usually attract high-quality infrastructure and services because the demand for them is much greater there. Without a tailored, co-ordinated strategy, there is a risk that ICT developments will widen the economic gap between the rural and urban areas of Wales. It will be cheaper and easier for individuals, communities and businesses in urban areas to make use of the latest technologies, while people in rural areas will be left behind. Technology is developing apace and that gap is therefore rapidly widening. Therefore, the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee put together this report on providing ICT in rural Wales.

Mae’r problemau sy’n wynebu ardaloedd gwledig Cymru o ran darparu TGCh yn deillio o’r boblogaeth isel a’r galw gwasgaredig. Heb dystiolaeth bod digon o alw i wneud elw masnachol, ni fydd darparwyr yn buddsoddi i ddarparu isadeiledd a gwasanaethau. Heb isadeiledd modern o ansawdd da, ni all cymunedau gwledig na busnesau elwa’n llawn ar fanteision TGCh, nac osgoi llusgo ar ôl datblygiadau TGCh mewn ardaloedd trefol.

The problems facing rural areas of Wales as regards ICT provision stem from low population and scattered demand. Without evidence of sufficient demand to make a commercial profit, providers will not invest in infrastructure and services. Without a high-quality, modern infrastructure, rural communities and businesses cannot fully exploit the advantages of ICT, or avoid lagging behind ICT developments in urban areas.

Rhaid i’r Cynulliad a gweddill y sector cyhoeddus geisio mynd i’r afael â phroblemau galw a chyflenwi, gan annog a helpu cyflenwyr o’r sector preifat i fuddsoddi yng nghefn gwlad Cymru. Rhaid iddo ddangos gwerth TGCh i gymunedau a busnesau gwledig, hybu’r galw a dysgu’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen ar bobl. Hefyd rhaid iddo gamu i’r adwy a mynd i’r afael â methiant yn y farchnad, lle bo angen.

The Assembly and the rest of the public sector must try to tackle problems surrounding demand and supply, encouraging and helping suppliers from the private sector to invest in rural Wales. It must demonstrate the value of ICT to rural communities and businesses, stimulate demand and teach the skills people need. It also needs to be ready to step in and, where necessary, tackle failure in the marketplace.

Mae argymhellion y Pwyllgor yn ymwneud â thri maes. Y cyntaf yw bod angen datblygu rhaglen TGCh i gefn gwlad Cymru yn strategol. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn rhoi arweiniad strategol yn rhaglen Cymru Ar-lein, sy’n amlinellu’r ffordd y bydd yn datblygu TGCh ledled Cymru. Mae’n hanfodol bod y rhaglen honno—ynghyd â’r rhaglenni sy’n deillio ohoni—yn mynd i’r afael yn benodol ag anghenion cefn gwlad Cymru i oresgyn y bwlch digidol rhwng yr ardaloedd gwledig a threfol. Hefyd, mae angen tîm canolog a fydd yn nodi a llywio’r gweithredu—

The Committee’s recommendations cover three areas. The first is that there is a need to strategically develop an ICT programme for rural Wales. The Welsh Assembly Government provides strategic guidance in the Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales programme that outlines the way in which it will develop ICT throughout Wales. It is essential that that programme—as well as the programmes that emerge from it—specifically tackle the needs of rural Wales to overcome the digital divide between rural and urban areas. Also, there is a need for a central team that will monitor and steer the implementation—

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 75

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 75

A derbyn yr hyn a ddywedasoch am bwysigrwydd TGCh a chysylltiadau o’r fath yng nghefn gwlad, a ydych yn credu bod darpariaeth ddigonol yn y gyllideb i’r datblygiadau hyn gyrraedd pob rhan o gefn gwlad?

Accepting what you said about the importance of ICT and such connections in rural areas, do you believe that there is sufficient provision in the budget for these developments to be rolled out to every rural area?

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 75

Glyn Davies spoken in Welsh p. 75

Nac wyf. Yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddoe cododd un Aelod Ceidwadol y pwynt bod band eang hefyd yn bwysig. Nid oes llawer o sôn am fand eang yn yr adroddiad. Cytunaf â chi.

No. In yesterday’s Plenary a Conservative Member made the point that broadband is also important. There is not much mention of broadband in the report. I agree with you.

Mae ein hail set o argymhellion yn trafod datblygu’r galw am wasanaethau TGCh gan, yn benodol, hyrwyddo manteision TGCh i fusnesau a chymunedau trwy fesurau wedi’u llunio’n benodol at anghenion cefn gwlad Cymru, megis clybiau busnes, canolfannau hyfforddi symudol, teleganolfannau a hyrwyddo esiamplau unigol. Maent hefyd yn ymwneud â nodi a blaenoriaethu esiamplau a manteision TGCh sy’n berthnasol i ardaloedd gwledig a lledaenu hynny trwy raglen benodol i hyfforddi a chodi ymwybyddiaeth. Mae’n trafod helpu cymunedau i ddarparu gwasanaethau TGCh a helpu â’r gwaith o’u darparu mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Our second set of recommendations deal with developing the demand for ICT services, specifically by promoting the advantages of ICT to businesses and communities through measures specifically tailored to the needs of rural Wales, such as business clubs, mobile training centres, telecentres and promoting individual examplars. They also deal with noting and prioritising examples and benefits of ICT that are relevant to rural areas and promoting that with a specific programme of training and awareness raising. It discusses assisting communities to provide ICT services and helping with the work of providing them in rural areas.

Yn olaf, mae ein hadroddiad yn trafod cyflenwi gwasanaethau TGCh yng nghefn gwlad trwy fentrau cronni’r galw, megis y gwaith diweddar ar ddatblygu’r rhwydwaith dysgu gydol oes. Mae’n argymell i’r Gweinidogion priodol wneud sylwadau i’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, yr Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon, OFTEL ac OFCOM. Mae’n trafod ymyrraeth gyhoeddus i gefnogi datblygu isadeiledd TGCh yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, lle y gellir dangos yn glir bod y farchnad wedi methu.

Lastly, our report refers to providing ICT services in rural areas through initiatives to concentrate demand, such as the recent work on developing the lifelong learning network. It asks the relevant Ministers to make representations to the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, OFTEL and OFCOM. It discusses public intervention to support the development of ICT infrastructure in rural Wales, where it can be clearly demonstrated that the market has failed.

Mae’r Pwyllgor o’r farn y bydd ei argymhellion, ochr yn ochr â’r mesurau sydd eisoes ar waith, yn helpu i fynd i’r afael â llawer o faterion TGCh sy’n wynebu cefn gwlad Cymru.

The Committee believes that its recommendations, together with the measures already in place, will help to tackle many ICT issues facing rural Wales.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 76

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 76

Yn gyntaf, llongyfarchaf Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor am ei gyflwyniad, nid yn unig am ei gynnwys, ond hefyd am iddo ei gyflwyno yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg. Yr ydym yn ei longyfarch ar y ffaith bod ei Gymraeg yn gwella bob dydd. Byddai rhai yn dadlau ei fod, erbyn hyn, yn fwy rhugl yn y Gymraeg nag yn y Saesneg.

First, I congratulate the Committee Chair on his presentation, not only because of its content, but also because he presented it in fluent Welsh. We congratulate him on the fact that his Welsh is improving every day. Some would argue that he is now more fluent in Welsh than he is in English.

Yr wyf yn syfrdan bod y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am TGCh wedi gadael y Siambr ar ddechrau’r drafodaeth hon. Dyma ei faes gwaith. Byddwn yn gobeithio, Ddirprwy Lywydd, y byddech yn rhannu fy mhryder bod Gweinidog wedi gadael ar ddechrau trafodaeth sy’n ymwneud ag un o’i gyfrifoldebau. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod Gweinidogion eraill yn bresennol.

I was astounded that the Minister responsible for ICT left the Chamber at the beginning of this discussion. This is his area of work. I would hope, Deputy Presiding Officer, that you would share my concern that the Minister left at the beginning of a discussion dealing with one of his responsibilities. I am pleased to see that other Ministers are present.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 76

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

To clarify the situation, the Minister had to leave because he had a prior appointment. He did not leave because it was the beginning of the debate. He has a prior appointment and cannot be here.

Er mwyn egluro’r sefyllfa, bu’n rhaid i’r Gweinidog adael gan fod ganddo apwyntiad wedi’i drefnu ymlaen llaw. Ni adawodd gan fod y ddadl wedi dechrau. Mae ganddo apwyntiad wedi’i drefnu ymlaen llaw ac ni all fod yma.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 76

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Order. The Minister can speak for himself. As I have said on several occasions, a Member’s highest service is to attend Plenary in session. Nothing else can be more important.

Trefn. Gall y Gweinidog siarad drosto’i hun. Fel y dywedais ar sawl achlysur, un o flaenoriaethau pennaf Aelod yw mynychu Cyfarfod Llawn. Ni all unrhyw beth arall gymryd blaenoriaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 77

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd; nid oes angen imi ychwanegu dim at hynny. Hwyrach bod hyn yn esbonio, i ryw raddau, pam y mae polisi’r Llywodraeth bresennol ar dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu mor ddigyfeiriad. Polisi cyffredinol ar gyfer Cymru benbaladr a geir yma. Ni roddir ystyriaeth i anghenion unrhyw ran arbennig o Gymru, a wynebwn broblemau ymarferol o ran y cysylltiadau hyn.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer; I need not elaborate on that. Perhaps this explains, to some extent, why the present Government’s policy on information and communications technology is so lacking in direction. This is a general, all-Wales policy. No consideration is given to the needs of specific parts of Wales, and we now face practical problems with these connections.

Yn ei adroddiad, cyfeiria’r Pwyllgor at yr angen i ystyried isadeiledd yn fanwl ac, o fewn hynny, bydd angen amrywiaeth. Wrth gynllunio’r isadeiledd, mae angen cynllunio ar gyfer y tymor byr, canolig a hirdymor os yr ydym i sicrhau ein bod yn llwyddo yn y maes pwysig hwn. Mae’r adroddiad yn glir: pe bai gennym bolisi TGCh effeithiol yng Nghymru, gallai fod o fudd economaidd enfawr i Gymru gyfan, ac yn arbennig i’r ardaloedd gwledig.

In its report, the Committee referred to the need to carefully consider infrastructure and, in that context, variety will be needed. In planning infrastructure, we must plan for the short, mid and long term if we are to ensure success in this important area. The report is clear: if we had an effective ICT policy in Wales, it would be of enormous economic benefit to all of Wales, and especially to rural areas.

Gŵyr pawb fod gan y rhan fwyaf o ardaloedd gwledig Cymru statws Amcan 1; maent wedi derbyn cymhorthdal Ewropeaidd am fod tlodi a methiant o ran polisi economaidd yno. Maent yn tanberfformio’n economaidd. Dyma gyfle i ddefnyddio TGCh i gynyddu gweithgaredd economaidd yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn ein rhybuddio y gallai’r polisi greu mwy o broblemau os nad yw’n gywir, a chreu mwy o fwlch o ran cysylltiadau modern yn yr ardaloedd hynny.

We all know that most rural areas in Wales have Objective 1 status; they have received European funding because of their poverty and the absence of economic policy there. They underperform economically. Here is a chance to use ICT to increase economic activity in those areas. The report also warns us that an ineffective policy could create more problems than it solves, and create more of a divide in terms of modern connections in those areas.

Wrth i Glyn gyflwyno’r adroddiad, cyfeiriodd at fand eang. Os oes un maes o fewn TGCh sy’n dangos yr angen am gynllunio o ran isadeiledd, band eang yw hwnnw. Ar y dechrau, yn sicr, bydd angen cymysgedd o isadeiledd, ond yn y pen draw, rhaid sicrhau bod Cymru yn cael y gorau posibl—nid ar gyfer pum neu 10 mlynedd, ond ar gyfer 20 mlynedd a mwy—os yr ydym am gystadlu yn y maes. Dyna’r perygl gwirioneddol o dan arweinyddiaeth—neu ddiffyg arweinyddiaeth—Llywodraeth Cymru.

In his opening remarks, Glyn referred to broadband. If there is one area within ICT that demonstrates the need for infrastructure planning, it is broadband. At the outset, certainly, we will need varied infrastructure, but ultimately, we must ensure that Wales gets the best possible—not for five or 10 years, but for 20 years and more—if we are to compete in the field. That is the real danger under the leadership—or lack of leadership—of the Government of Wales.

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh p. 77

Rhodri, a ydych yn ymwybodol o fuddsoddiad y Cynulliad o £100 miliwn i ddatblygu band eang dros Gymru gyfan, ac a ydych hefyd yn ymwybodol fod y Llywodraeth Brydeinig yn San Steffan yn genfigennus o waith blaengar y Cynulliad wrth ddatblygu’r rhwydwaith hwn ledled Cymru?

Rhodri, are you aware of the Assembly’s £100 million investment in developing broadband across Wales, and are you also aware that the British Government in Westminster is envious of the Assembly’s progressive work in developing this network across Wales?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 78

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 78

Diolch, Delyth, am fy atgoffa o gynllun ‘Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales’ a’r buddsoddiad hwnnw. Mae hynny i’w groesawu, ond y mae’n enghraifft berffaith o ddiffyg cynllunio isadeiledd. Mae’n gwbl ddibynnol ar un math o isadeiledd, ac nid y math a fydd yn cynnig cyfleoedd i fusnesau yng nghefn gwlad fantesio ar fand eang.

Thank you, Delyth, for reminding me of ‘Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales’ and that investment. That is welcome, but it is a perfect example of failure to plan infrastructure. It is wholly reliant upon one type of infrastructure, and not the type that will afford opportunities to businesses in rural Wales to take advantage of broadband.

Os yw busnesau am fanteisio ar fand eang, rhaid cael cysylltiadau o ansawdd gyda’r busnesau hynny i’w galluogi i gael mynediad cyflym, effeithiol ac o’r safon uchaf i fand eang. Nid yw ‘Cymru Ar-lein’ yn caniatáu hynny. Mae’n rhoi cysylltiadau i ysgolion, mae’n wir, ac mae’n caniatáu cysylltiadau i bobl yn eu cartrefi, sy’n bwysig, ond sôn am ddatblygu economaidd yr ydym yn awr. Mae’r polisi hwnnw yn dangos diffyg gweledigaeth, diffyg paratoi a chynllunio y Llywodraeth yn y maes hwn. Dyma gyfloedd gwych, ond ceir peryglon hefyd. Mae polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn ein harwain at sefyllfa lle y bydd y bwlch digidol yn cynyddu yng nghefn gwlad.

If businesses are to take advantage of broadband, those businesses need high-quality connections to enable them to get high-speed, effective access to broadband. ‘Cymru Ar-lein’ does not make provision for that. It provides connections to schools, that is true, and it offers connections to people in their homes, which is important, but we are debating economic development. That policy reveals the Government’s lack of vision and lack of preparation and planning in this area. There are excellent opportunities here, but dangers too. The Welsh Government’s current policy is leading us to a situation where the digital divide will widen in rural areas.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

Order. Five more Members wish to speak, who should be finished by 5 p.m.. I hope that Members will remember that we must finish at 5.30 p.m., and I must try to protect the short debate. May we have shorter rather than longer speeches?

Trefn. Mae pum Aelod arall am siarad, y dylent orffen erbyn 5 p.m.. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau yn cofio bod yn rhaid inni orffen am 5.30 p.m., a rhaid imi geisio diogelu’r ddadl fer. A allwn gael areithiau byrrach yn hytrach na hirach?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 78

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

We all congratulate the Committee and its Chair on bringing this report forward and addressing the issue of the digital divide. There is no doubt that we must address the problem of exclusion of people in rural areas who cannot access the infrastructure. I have two broad comments about the report. First, I welcome the fact that there is an emphasis on a partnership approach. Secondly, this approach must be well co-ordinated. The vision of how we should proceed with the development of ICT in rural areas is holistic. That is a tremendous start. In terms of a partnership approach, the Committee has rightly emphasised the need for political pressure to ensure that the commercial sector can provide an expensive resource in rural areas. That means that we must encourage commercial operators to ensure that they have sufficient funds to get the infrastructure in place; I will say more on that in a moment.

Llongyfarchwn oll y Pwyllgor a’i Gadeirydd ar gyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn ac ymdrin â’r rhaniad digidol. Yn sicr mae’n rhaid inni ymdrin â’r broblem o allgáu pobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig na allant fanteisio ar yr isadeiledd. Mae gennyf ddau sylw cyffredinol am yr adroddiad. Yn gyntaf, croesawaf y ffaith bod pwyslais ar ymagwedd bartneriaeth. Yn ail, rhaid cydlynu’r ymagwedd hon yn dda. Mae’r weledigaeth o ran sut y dylem fwrw ati i ddatblygu TGCh mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn gyfannol. Mae hynny’n ddechrau aruthrol. O ran ymagwedd bartneriaeth, mae’r Pwyllgor yn iawn i bwysleisio’r angen am bwysau gwleidyddol er mwyn sicrhau y gall y sector masnachol ddarparu adnodd drud mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Golyga hynny fod yn rhaid inni annog gweithredwyr masnachol i sicrhau bod ganddynt ddigon o arian i sefydlu’r isadeiledd; ymhelaethaf ar hynny yn y man.

The second concept of a co-ordinated approach is equally exciting because it carries forward many of the provisions that the Assembly has already encouraged. In the agriculture sector, training advice is provided for all farmers through Farming Connect, and business clubs, particularly e-business clubs, are promoted—I have spoken at my local club about the need for us to embrace new technology. If we are to create greater long-term prosperity in rural areas, we must embrace new technology. We are not looking at a quick fix; we are looking at long-term investments. That investment and the provision of training and extra skills must be promoted through familiar means to the people that we are trying to target. All too often, a top-down approach, saying ‘this is the best way, now get on with it’, is used. Mechanisms are already in place that will further the promotion, and encourage all societies within the community to take part. In my community of Montgomeryshire, facilities are available where not only farmers and business people, but also members of the community up to the age of 90, can learn ICT skills. Those are the exemplars that we should promote. The choice of exemplars within these recommendations is undoubtedly important. I hope that we will hear more from the Minister about exemplars that encourage other people to take up new technologies.

Mae’r ail gysyniad o ymagwedd wedi’i chydlynu yr un mor gyffrous gan ei bod yn datblygu llawer o’r darpariaethau y mae’r Cynulliad eisoes wedi’u hannog. Yn y sector amaethyddol, darperir cyngor hyfforddi i bob ffermwr drwy Gyswllt Ffermio, ac hyrwyddir clybiau busnes, yn arbennig clybiau e-fusnes—yr wyf wedi siarad yn fy nghlwb lleol am yr angen inni groesawu technoleg newydd. Er mwyn creu mwy o lewyrch hirdymor mewn ardaloedd gwledig, rhaid inni groesawu technoleg newydd. Nid ydym yn disgwyl ateb cyflym; yr ydym yn disgwyl buddsoddiadau hirdymor. Rhaid hyrwyddo’r buddsoddiad hwnnw a’r broses o ddarparu hyfforddiant a sgiliau ychwanegol drwy ddulliau cyfarwydd i’r bobl yr ydym yn ceisio eu targedu. Yn rhy aml o lawer, defnyddir ymagwedd o’r brig i’r bôn, gan ddweud ‘dyma’r ffordd orau, nawr ewch ati’. Mae mecanweithiau eisoes ar waith a fydd yn datblygu’r gwaith hyrwyddo, ac yn annog pob cymdeithas o fewn y gymuned i gymryd rhan. Yn fy nghymuned i, sef Sir Drefaldwyn, mae cyfleusterau ar gael lle y gall nid yn unig ffermwyr a phobl fusnes, ond aelodau o’r gymuned hyd at 90 oed, ddysgu sgiliau TGCh. Dyma’r enghreifftiau y dylem eu hyrwyddo. Yn sicr, mae’r dewis o enghreifftiau o fewn yr argymhellion hyn yn bwysig. Gobeithiaf y clywn fwy gan y Gweinidog am enghreifftiau sy’n annog pobl eraill i fanteisio ar dechnolegau newydd.

On infrastructure, there is an unanswered problem. There is no doubt that providing a fibre link is the best solution, but we know that it is expensive. There have been some experiments already, such as wireless in the MARAN project. We know that wireless is unfortunately affected by rain—we get a great deal of that in Wales. There is also the newer technology of satellite. Unfortunately, there is a time delay on satellite signals; it is also asymmetric. The few seconds delay in receiving the signal is because the existing satellites are geostationary. We must invest in lower orbiting satellites to make the signal immediate. That is important. I would like to hear more about how to diversify the portfolio in rural areas, not only in terms of providing fibre links, but also wireless and satellite where appropriate. As part of these recommendations it is important that we have an evaluation of all the exemplars and the work that has already been undertaken—Powys County Council, for example, initiated a tremendous scheme and a great deal of money was invested in it. We should make more use of people’s experience and skills.

O ran isadeiledd, mae problem heb ei hateb. Yn sicr, darparu cyswllt ffeibr fyddai’r ateb gorau, ond gwyddom fod hynny’n ddrud. Cynhaliwyd rhai arbrofion eisoes, megis di-wifr ym mhrosiect MARAN. Gwyddom yn anffodus fod glaw yn effeithio ar ddulliau di-wifr—cawn lawer o hwnnw yng Nghymru. Ceir hefyd y dechnoleg fwy newydd, sef y lloeren. Yn anffodus, ceir oedi o ran amser ar signalau lloeren; mae hefyd yn anghymesur. Ceir oedi o ychydig eiliadau wrth dderbyn y signal gan fod y lloerennau presennol yn ddaearsefydlog. Rhaid inni fuddsoddi mewn lloerennau is sy’n cylchdroi er mwyn sicrhau bod y signal yn cael ei derbyn yn syth. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Hoffwn glywed mwy am sut i arallgyfeirio’r portffolio mewn ardaloedd gwledig, nid yn unig o ran darparu cysylltau ffeibr, ond cysylltau di-wifr a lloeren lle y bo’n briodol. Fel rhan o’r argymhellion hyn mae’n bwysig inni werthuso’r holl enghreifftiau a’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd eisoes—cyflwynodd Cyngor Sir Powys, er enghraifft, gynllun ardderchog gan fuddsoddi swm sylweddol o arian ynddo. Dylem fanteisio mwy ar brofiad a sgiliau pobl.

Finally, as a farmer, I look forward to the day when every piece of information is processed electronically. One of the biggest pressures that farmers face is bureaucracy. The recommendations should not overlook the fact that training for small businesses to use ICT can relieve much tension and stress. Using modern skills will make data collection or form filling easier. That is the best solution for the long-term prosperity of all rural areas. I commend this report.

Yn olaf, fel ffermwr, edrychaf ymlaen at y diwrnod pan gaiff pob darn o wybodaeth ei brosesu’n electronig. Un o’r pwysau mwyaf ar ffermwyr yw biwrocratiaeth. Ni ddylai’r argymhellion ddiystyru’r ffaith y gall hyfforddiant i fusnesau bach ar ddefnyddio TGCh liniaru llawer o densiwn a straen. Wrth ddefnyddio sgiliau modern, bydd casglu data neu lanw ffurflenni yn haws. Dyna’r ateb gorau ar gyfer llewyrch hirdymor pob ardal wledig. Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad hwn.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 80

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I welcome this report. If it is fulfilled, it will make a tremendous difference to services and employment opportunities in rural communities. Those opportunities are exactly what we need, particularly in Anglesey, where the outward migration of young people is among the highest in Wales.

Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn. Os caiff ei gyflawni, gwnaiff wahaniaeth enfawr i wasanaethau a chyfleoedd cyflogaeth o fewn cymunedau gwledig. Dyna’r union gyfleoedd sydd eu hangen arnom, yn arbennig ar Ynys Môn, lle mae allfudo gan bobl ifanc ymhlith yr uchaf yng Nghymru.

The agriculture industry already appreciates the importance of information technology. It is vital in order to record stock and keep records for European grant claims. I place on record Farming Connect’s success in providing IT training in rural areas, as this encourages people to learn how to use the systems.

Mae’r diwydiant amaethyddiaeth eisoes yn gwerthfawrogi pwysigrwydd technoleg gwybodaeth. Mae’n hanfodol er mwyn cofnodi stoc a chadw cofnodion ar gyfer ceisiadau grant Ewropeaidd. Cofnodaf lwyddiant Cyswllt Ffermio wrth ddarparu hyfforddiant TG mewn ardaloedd gwledig, gan fod hyn yn annog pobl i ddysgu sut i ddefnyddio’r systemau.

The challenge now is to provide the infrastructure to attract commercial operators to rural Wales and to enable facilitators to use it. In order to achieve this, we must provide advanced services, similar to those that are already available in urban areas. The provision of hardware in rural areas must be supported by training of the highest quality. This is a positive report, and we must now support the delivery of its recommendations.

Yr her yn awr yw darparu’r isadeiledd i ddenu gweithredwyr masnachol i Gymru wledig a galluogi hwyluswyr i’w ddefnyddio. Er mwyn cyflawni hyn, rhaid inni ddarparu gwasanaethau datblygedig, yn debyg i’r rheini sydd eisoes ar gael mewn ardaloedd trefol. Rhaid darparu hyfforddiant o’r radd flaenaf i ategu’r caledwedd a ddarperir mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn gadarnhaol, a rhaid inni yn awr gefnogi’r gwaith o weithredu ei argymhellion.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 81

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I recently received a telephone call from a friend who has given up physics to establish an organic farm near Aberporth. He and his friends want to use broadband to market their produce, so he telephoned to ask when they would receive broadband services. He will not find the answer in this report, and he will feel bitter at the suggestion that

Derbyniais alwad ffôn yn ddiweddar gan gyfaill sydd wedi rhoi’r gorau i ffiseg i sefydlu fferm organig ger Aberporth. Mae ef a’i gyfeillion am ddefnyddio band eang i farchnata eu cynnyrch, felly ffoniodd i ofyn pryd y byddent yn derbyn gwasanaethau band eang. Ni ddaw o hyd i’r ateb yn yr adroddiad hwn, a chaiff ei gythruddo wrth weld yr awgrym mai

‘the most fundamental explanation for the low adoption of ICT…in rural sectors…is one of awareness’.

That is like saying that the reason why Ceredigion has never produced a world-champion skier is due to a lack of awareness, and nothing to do with the lack of snow. There is no point in creating awareness if the infrastructure does not exist. The report is particularly disappointing in this regard. It recognises the long-term need, but where is the long-term plan? A report which contains only three lines on public support for infrastructure does not answer that key question.

Mae hynny cystal â dweud mai’r rheswm pam na ddaeth sgïwr o’r radd flaenaf erioed o Geredigion yw diffyg ymwybyddiaeth, yn hytrach na’r diffyg eira. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt creu ymwybyddiaeth os nad yw’r isadeiledd ar gael. Mae’r adroddiad yn arbennig o siomedig yn hyn o beth. Mae’n cydnabod yr angen hirdymor, ond beth am y cynllun hirdymor? Mewn adroddiad â dim ond tair llinell ar gymorth cyhoeddus i isadeiledd ni cheir ateb i’r cwestiwn allweddol hwnnw.

In providing broadband for the whole of Wales, we must use the best future-proof combination of optic fibre, cable, twisted copper, wireless and satellite. We must bear in mind that, although fibre or cable are the best solutions, as Mick said, they are expensive to provide to every customer in rural areas.

Wrth ddarparu band eang ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r cyfuniad gorau o ffeibr optig, cebl, copr dirdro, di-wifr a lloeren gan ystyried datblygiadau yn y dyfodol. Rhaid inni gofio, er mai ffeibr neu gebl yw’r atebion gorau, fel y dywedodd Mick, eu bod yn ddrud i’w darparu i bob cwsmer mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Technically, the way ahead is obvious. Most telephone exchanges, if not all, are already linked by fibre, so we can deliver broadband to 500 or so exchanges. If these exchanges are equipped with digital subscriber line technology, broadband can be delivered through normal telephone lines to a distance of about 5 km. A large majority of people live within 5 km of an exchange. However, if a rural village has a school but no telephone exchange, we should provide a fibre link to that school to meet the Government’s commitment in ‘Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales’.

Yn dechnegol, mae’r ffordd ymlaen yn amlwg. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o gyfnewidfeydd ffôn, os nad pob un, eisoes wedi’u cysylltu gan ffeibr, felly gallwn gyflwyno band eang i tua 500 o gyfnewidfeydd. Os gosodir technoleg llinell tanysgrifwyr digidol yn y cyfnewidfeydd hyn, gellir cyflwyno band eang drwy linellau ffôn cyffredin i bellter o tua 5 km. Mae’r mwyafrif helaeth o bobl yn byw o fewn 5 km i gyfnewidfa. Fodd bynnag, os bydd gan bentref gwledig ysgol ond na fydd ganddo gyfnewidfa ffôn, dylem ddarparu cyswllt ffeibr i’r ysgol honno er mwyn bodloni ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i ‘Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales’.

But why train children to use broadband if it is not available at home? The next step in a properly funded plan is to install a DSL community box near each school to act as a mini-exchange. This would offer broadband over a further 5 km radius. Last week, the Economic Development Committee visited the United States of America to study, among other topics, broadband provision in rural areas. We discovered that this is the main method used in rural areas of the USA, where fibre is used to link the exchange to a remote node. The main debate in the journal on broadband for rural areas—such a journal exists—is whether to use copper or fibre for the last few kilometres. According to the latest issue of the journal, fibre has just become cheaper than copper if the service is provided from scratch.

Ond pam hyfforddi plant i ddefnyddio band eang os nad yw ar gael gartref? Y cam nesaf mewn cynllun wedi’i ariannu’n briodol yw gosod blwch DSL cymunedol ger pob ysgol i weithredu fel cyfnewidfa fach. Byddai hyn yn cynnig band eang dros radiws o 5 km ychwanegol. Yr wythnos diwethaf, ymwelodd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ag Unol Daleithiau America i astudio, ymhlith pynciau eraill, y ddarpariaeth band eang mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Canfuom mai dyma’r prif ddull a ddefnyddir mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn UDA, lle y defnyddir ffeibr i gysylltu’r gyfnewidfa â nod pell. Y brif ddadl yn y cyfnodolyn ar fand eang ar gyfer ardaloedd gwledig—mae cyfnodolyn o’r fath ar gael—yw pa un ai copr ynteu ffeibr y dylid ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer yr ychydig gilometrau olaf. Yn ôl rhifyn diweddaraf y cyfnodolyn hwn, mae ffeibr yn rhatach na chopr erbyn hyn os darperir y gwasanaeth o’r newydd.

That is the long-term, future-proof method of providing this service. Only when fibre or cable provision is impractical do you turn to wireless or satellite. These are, intrinsically, second-best technologies. They are badly affected by rain and are certainly not future proof. As wireless and satellite signals are transmitted into free air, these technologies are ultimately limited in the number of channels and bandwidth available. The University of Wales, Aberystwyth currently has a wireless link. Early this year, between January and March, we lost contact with the rest of the world 23 times because it was raining. We are now pressing for a fibre link.

Dyna’r ffordd hirdymor o ddarparu’r gwasanaeth hwn gan sicrhau y bydd yn addas ar gyfer y dyfodol. Dim ond pan na fydd yn ymarferol darparu drwy ffeibr neu gebl y dylech droi at ddulliau di-wifr neu loeren. Mewn gwirionedd, nid yw’r technolegau hyn gystal. Cânt eu heffeithio’n wael gan law ac nid oes unrhyw warant y byddant yn briodol yn y dyfodol. Gan mai i’r awyr y caiff signalau di-wifr a signalau lloeren eu trosglwyddo, mae’r technolegau hyn felly yn gyfyngedig o ran nifer y sianelau a’r lled band sydd ar gael. Mae gan Brifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth gyswllt di-wifr ar hyn o bryd. Rhwng Ionawr a Mawrth eleni, collwyd ein cyswllt â gweddill y byd 23 o weithiau gan ei bod yn bwrw glaw. Yr ydym bellach yn dwyn pwysau i gael cyswllt ffeibr.

We need an overall plan that would give the best provision in each area, where wireless and satellite would be reserved and used for subscribers like myself at home, who are too far from an exchange or school to have access to fibre or copper. That is why we need a proper plan and proper funding. We have yet to hear the Assembly Minister responsible provide details of his plan. He did so in Cardiff Business School, though there was no opportunity for questions on that occasion, and there is still great uncertainty about the overall strategic plan. The amount of funding in the budget is welcome, and there has been an improvement. However, it is about half the amount that we need if we are serious about getting broadband access throughout Wales in time for it to be useful. To conclude, in a few minutes I have outlined the matters that need to be addressed in a proper report. The absence of any proper technical analysis or time dimension limits the value of this report, which at least points to the need but does not give the answer.

Mae angen cynllun cyffredinol arnom a fyddai’n rhoi’r ddarpariaeth orau ym mhob ardal, lle y byddai dulliau di-wifr a lloeren yn cael eu cadw a’u defnyddio ar gyfer tanysgrifwyr cartref fel myfi fy hun, sy’n rhy bell o unrhyw gyfnewidfa neu ysgol i gael mynediad i ffeibr neu gopr. Dyna pam y mae angen cynllun priodol a chyllid priodol arnom. Nid yw Gweinidog y Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol wedi rhoi manylion ei gynllun inni eto. Gwnaeth hynny yn Ysgol Fusnes Caerdydd, er nad oedd cyfle i holi cwestiynau bryd hynny, ac mae llawer o ansicrwydd o hyd ynglŷn â’r cynllun strategol cyffredinol. Croesewir swm yr arian yn y gyllideb, ac yr ydym wedi gweld gwelliant. Fodd bynnag, os ydym o ddifrif am ddarparu mynediad band eang ledled Cymru mewn pryd iddo fod yn ddefnyddiol, dim ond hanner y swm sydd ei angen arnom yw’r swm hwn. I gloi, mewn ychydig funudau amlinellais y materion y mae angen ymdrin â hwy mewn adroddiad priodol. Mae’r ffaith nad oes unrhyw ddadansoddiad technegol priodol neu derfynau amser yn lleihau gwerth yr adroddiad hwn, sydd o leiaf yn nodi’r angen ond heb roi’r ateb.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 83

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, particularly following on from Phil Williams. I will highlight several of the points that he raised, and offer some alternatives to his solution. As many people have said, modern technology offers us the opportunity of bridging the isolation that so many rural communities suffer in terms of geography. It creates the opportunity to generate high-value jobs in some of the most deprived areas—rural areas—that have been in decline for a considerable period. Before moving on to the two key issues of infrastructure and demand, I congratulate Glyn Davies as Chair of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, and its members and Clerk on their role in drafting this report, particularly at a time when foot and mouth disease was in the news, which was a massive responsibility for the Committee. It is important to recognise the timeframe during which the report was developed and taken forward.

Diolch am roi’r cyfle imi siarad yn y ddadl hon, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yn arbennig i ddilyn Phil Williams. Amlygaf sawl un o’r pwyntiau a gododd, gan gynnig rhai dewisiadau amgen i’w ateb. Fel y dywedodd llawer o bobl, mae technoleg fodern yn cynnig cyfle inni bontio’r unigedd y mae cymaint o gymunedau gwledig yn ei ddioddef o ran daearyddiaeth. Mae’n creu’r cyfle i gynhyrchu swyddi o werth uchel yn rhai o’r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig—ardaloedd gwledig—a fu’n dirywio ers peth amser. Cyn symud ymlaen at ddau fater allweddol, sef isadeiledd a galw, llongyfarchaf Glyn Davies fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a’i aelodau a’r Clerc, ar eu rôl wrth ddrafftio’r adroddiad hwn, yn arbennig ar adeg pan oedd clwy’r traed a’r genau yn y newyddion, a oedd yn gyfrifoldeb enfawr ar y Pwyllgor. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod yr amserlen ar gyfer datblygu’r adroddiad a’i gyflwyno.

On infrastructure, it is right, as has been said, that wireless, fibre and satellite are the three main sources of broadband communications to rural areas. I agree with some of Phil Williams’s points that fibre is the best way forward. That must be the ultimate option for us. However, we must also accept that, although there are shortcomings, which have been highlighted, such as weather, for wireless and satellite, there need to be short-term and longer-term goals. In the short term, if we are being realistic, wireless and satellite is all that some rural areas can expect.

O ran isadeiledd, mae’n iawn, fel y dywedwyd, mai dulliau di-wifr, ffeibr a lloeren yw’r tair prif ffynhonnell o gysylltiadau band eang i ardaloedd gwledig. Cytunaf â rhai o bwyntiau Phil Williams mai ffeibr yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Rhaid mai dyna’r opsiwn gorau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni hefyd dderbyn, er bod gan ddulliau di-wifr a lloeren rai diffygion, a amlygwyd, megis y tywydd, bod angen nodau byrdymor a hirdymor. Yn y byrdymor, gan fod yn realistig, dulliau di-wifr a lloeren yw’r unig ddulliau y gall rhai ardaloedd gwledig ddisgwyl eu gweld.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 84

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 84

Mae Alun wedi codi pwynt eithriadol o bwysig, y cyfeiriodd Phil a minnau ato, sef yr angen i gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol. Tra bo’n rhaid i ni ateb rhai o’r problemau ymarferol sydd yn ein hwynebu yn y tymor byr, yn ogystal â’r gost, o ran buddsoddi ar gyfer y dyfodol, mae’n rhaid i ni hefyd ystyried beth fydd gwerth yr isadeiledd hwn mewn pum, 10 neu 20 mlynedd. Y gwir amdani yw y bydd gwerth tymor hir rhai o’r systemau hynny yn ddim. Mae’n rhaid cynllunio’n ofalus. A gytunwch fod y polisi a amlinellwyd gan y Gweinidog yn dangos diffyg ymwybyddiaeth o’r angen i gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol a gwneud y defnydd gorau o bob opsiwn sydd ar gael?

Alun has raised an extremely important point, to which Phil and I referred, which is the need to plan for the future. While we must respond to some of the practical problems that face us in the short term, as well as the cost, in terms of investment for the future, we must also consider what the value of this infrastructure will be in five, 10 or 20 years’ time. The truth is that some of these systems will be worthless in the long term. We must plan carefully. Do you agree that the policy outlined by the Minister shows a lack of awareness of the need to plan for the future and make the best use of every available option?

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 84

Alun Cairns spoken in Welsh and English p. 84

Cytunaf â sylwadau Rhodri Glyn Thomas. Yr wyf innau’n siomedig nad yw’r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am y polisïau hyn yma i fod yn atebol. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yma i ymateb i’r ddadl, ond dengys hyn fod diffyg cydlynu personol rhwng y ddau, sef nad yw’r pwysicaf ohonynt yma i fod yn atebol. Hefyd, ar sylwadau Delyth Evans ar y buddsoddiad, yr ydym, wrth gwrs, yn croesawu’r buddsoddiad ychwanegol hwn. Serch hynny, fel y dywedodd Phil Williams a Rhodri Glyn Thomas, mae’n llawer rhy isel ar gyfer y galw mewn rhannau o Gymru am fuddsoddiad mewn isadeiledd. Yr ateb yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Sweden a Chymru. Mae gwahaniaeth enfawr rhwng y mynd sydd arno yn Sweden ac yng Nghymru. Bydd ymchwiliadau manylach y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd i ddarganfod y gwahaniaethau yn ddiddorol oherwydd mae tebygrwydd rhwng daearyddiaeth Cymru a Sweden.

in Welsh I agree with Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s comments. I am also disappointed that the Minister responsible for these policies is not here to be held to account. I am pleased that the Deputy First Minister is here to respond to the debate, but this shows a lack of personal co-opeartion between the two in that the more important of them is not here to be accountable. Also, on Delyth Evans’s remarks on the investment, we welcome, of course, this additional investment. However, as Phil Williams and Rhodri Glyn Thomas said, it is far too little to meet the demand in parts of Wales for investment in infrastructure. The answer is the difference between Sweden and Wales. There is a huge difference between take-up in Sweden and here in Wales. The more detailed research of the Economic Development Committee to discover the differences will be interesting because of the geographical similarities between Wales and Sweden.

To underline the timescale, the long-term and short-term goals on the wireless, fibre optic and satellite options: wireless and satellite are the obvious choices in the short-term. Regarding the wireless opportunity, the UK Government will shortly hold a licence auction for the wireless communications requirements. However, in the draft plans as they stand, Wales is divided into several parts. That does not allow for the desired co-ordinated approach, namely to bring Wales together. Parts of mid Wales, for example, have been grouped with the midlands. The large telecommunications companies will bid for the midlands area, as it will be seen as a lucrative area. However, the rural parts of mid Wales could be left out of their main plans, as it is more profitable for the companies to invest in the midlands. This report does not touch on that point. When the Minister responds, either today or in his expected detailed response, I hope to hear the Assembly Government’s view on this matter, and how it intends to lobby the UK Government on amending the boundaries. We can draw comparisons with Scotland, as it too is divided in a way that does not follow natural boundaries.

yn Saesneg I danlinellu’r amserlen, y nodau hirdymor a byrdymor ar yr opsiynau di-wifr, ffeibr optig a lloeren: di-wifr a lloeren yw’r dewisiadau amlwg yn y byrdymor. O ran y cyfle di-wifr, bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn cynnal arwerthiant trwydded cyn hir ar gyfer y gofynion cysylltiadau di-wifr. Fodd bynnag, yn y cynlluniau drafft fel ag y maent, rhennir Cymru yn sawl rhan. Nid yw hynny’n gydnaws â’r ymagwedd gyd-gysylltiedig a ddymunir, sef dod â Chymru ynghyd. Cysylltwyd rhannau o ganolbarth Cymru, er enghraifft, â chanolbarth Lloegr. Bydd y cwmnïau telathrebu mawr yn gwneud cais am ardal canolbarth Lloegr, gan yr ystyrir ei bod yn ardal werthfawr. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bosibl na chaiff rhannau gwledig canolbarth Cymru eu cynnwys yn eu prif gynlluniau, gan y bydd buddsoddi yng nghanolbarth Lloegr yn gwneud mwy o elw i’r cwmnïau. Nid yw’r adroddiad hwn yn sôn am hynny o gwbl. Pan fydd y Gweinidog yn ymateb, naill ai heddiw neu yn yr ymateb manwl a ddisgwylir ganddo, gobeithiaf glywed barn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar y mater hwn, a sut y bwriada ddwyn pwysau ar Lywodraeth y DU i ddiwygio’r ffiniau. Gallwn dynnu cymariaethau â’r Alban, gan ei bod hefyd wedi’i rhannu mewn ffordd nad yw’n dilyn ffiniau naturiol.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

Order, your time is short.

Trefn, nid oes gennych lawer o amser.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 85

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I will be brief. Any support schemes introduced must be demand-led, otherwise it will lead to a confusion of more business support schemes to add to the myriad of schemes offered by the Welsh Development Agency and others. They must be demand-led, and the prime objective must be to use our schools—while we still have rural schools—to stimulate demand by using the networks available to the public rather than closed, public sector networks.

Byddaf yn gryno. Rhaid i unrhyw gynlluniau cymorth a gyflwynir gael eu tywys gan alw, neu fel arall bydd yn arwain at ddryswch o fwy o gynlluniau cymorth busnes i’w hychwanegu at y cynlluniau niferus a gynigir gan Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ac eraill. Rhaid iddynt gael eu tywys gan alw, a rhaid sicrhau mai’r prif amcan yw defnyddio ein hysgolion—tra bod ysgolion gwledig yn bodoli—i ysgogi galw drwy ddefnyddio’r rhwydweithiau sydd ar gael i’r cyhoedd yn hytrach na rhwydweithiau caeëdig y sector cyhoeddus.

Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 85

Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

As many have pointed out, the purpose of this debate and the report is to build a team approach in rural Wales with Government. It is not just about the cables, the wires and the signals, it is also about people. That is why I shall co-ordinate the Welsh Assembly Government response, and why I am participating in this debate. I note the questions raised. I also note Phil Williams’s criticisms of the report, and I will take those matters into account when drawing up our response.

Fel y nododd sawl un, diben y ddadl hon a’r adroddiad yw adeiladu ymagwedd tîm yng Nghymru wledig gyda’r Llywodraeth. Nid mater syml o geblau, gwifrau a signalau mohono, mae hefyd yn ymwneud â phobl. Dyna pam y byddaf yn cydgysylltu ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, a pham fy mod yn cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon. Nodaf y cwestiynau a godwyd gennych. Nodaf hefyd feirniadaethau Phil Williams o’r adroddiad, ac ystyriaf y materion hynny wrth lunio ein hymateb.

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 85

Glyn Davies spoken in Welsh p. 85

Mae sawl Aelod wedi sôn am bwysigrwydd TGCh i Gymru wledig. Ar gyfraniad Phil Williams, pan benderfynodd y Pwyllgor ar sut i baratoi’r adroddiad hwn, penderfynodd beidio â chanolbwyntio ar isadeiledd. Gwn fod pobl yn y Cynulliad yn gweithio ar sawl dull arall, a gwn fod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wedi gweithio cryn dipyn ar y mater hwn. Bu inni benderfynu canolbwyntio ar y defnydd o TGCh yn hytrach nac ar isadeiledd yn fwriadol.

Several Members have talked about the importance of ICT to rural Wales. On Phil Williams’s contribution, when the Committee was deciding how to prepare this report, it decided not to concentrate on infrastructure. I know that people in the Assembly are working on several other means, and I know that the Economic Development Committee has done considerable work on this matter. Our decision to concentrate on the use of ICT rather than on infrastructure was deliberate.

Diolch i bawb a gyfrannodd heddiw. Yr wyf yn siŵr y trafodir y pwnc hwn yn y Pwyllgor ac yn y Cyfarfod Llawn eto yn y dyfodol ac edrychaf ymlaen at hynny.

I thank everyone who contributed today. I am sure that this subject will be discussed in Committee and in Plenary again in future and I look forward to that.

Cynnig NDM1173 Glyn Davies t. 86

Motion NDM1173 Glyn Davies p. 86

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 34 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (34)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Glyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • David Melding
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Rhoi Cleifion yn Gyntaf

Putting Patients First

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 87

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I will allow Christine Chapman, Dai Lloyd and Kirsty Williams a minute each in which to speak.

Caniatâf funud yr un i Christine Chapman, Dai Lloyd a Kirsty Williams i gyfrannu.

I am sure that the NHS and its future are important to all Members and that no-one would disagree that we should put patients first. It seems such an obvious statement that one wonders why it has to be said at all. However, it clearly does have to be said. In 1997 and 1999, the Labour Party promised to spend more on patient care and less on bureaucracy. It also promised that by the end of this Assembly term, no-one would wait more than 18 months for in-patient treatment or more than six months for an out-patient appointment. In ‘Plan for Wales 2001’, Labour, with the new driving force of the Liberal Democrats—the political equivalent of All-Bran—behind it, promised to reduce overall waiting times and move us closer to levels that compare with the best. Let us consider the best: in Germany the idea of national waiting lists is unheard of, while, in Denmark, people have a legal right to treatment four weeks after seeing a general practitioner. The Government of Wales has failed on both points. The number of out-patients waiting over 18 months since 1997 has increased by 683 per cent. The Government of Wales has not been putting patients first.

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y GIG a’i ddyfodol yn bwysig i bob Aelod ac nad oes unrhyw un yn anghytuno y dylem roi cleifion yn gyntaf. Ymddengys yn ddatganiad mor amlwg fel ein bod yn synnu bod angen ei ddweud o gwbl. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amlwg bod yn rhaid ei ddweud. Yn 1997 a 1999, addawodd y Blaid Lafur wario mwy ar ofal cleifion a llai ar fiwrocratiaeth. Addawodd hefyd na fyddai neb, erbyn diwedd y tymor Cynulliad hwn, yn aros mwy na 18 mis am driniaeth fel claf mewnol neu fwy na chwe mis am apwyntiad fel claf allanol. Yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’, addawodd Llafur, gyda grym ysgogol newydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—yr All-Bran gwleidyddol—y tu cefn iddi, leihau amseroedd aros cyffredinol a’n symud ni yn nes at lefelau sy’n cymharu â’r goreuon. Dewch inni ystyried y goreuon: yn yr Almaen, ni chlywyd am y syniad o restrau aros cenedlaethol, ac yn Nenmarc, mae gan bobl hawl gyfreithiol i gael triniaeth o fewn pedair wythnos ar ôl gweld meddyg teulu. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi methu ar y ddau bwynt. Cynyddodd nifer y cleifion allanol sy’n disgwyl am fwy na 18 mis ers 1997 683 y cant. Ni wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru roi cleifion yn gyntaf.

Expenditure of at least £15.5 million, on what we were told would be cost neutral, has been committed not to putting patients first, bringing down waiting lists or making up the chronic shortfall in ambulance service funding, but to creating what Labour MP Denzil Davies described as the most bureaucratic health service in Europe. Eighty six per cent of the members of the NHS Confederation in Wales, which represents health sector senior management, do not believe that 22 local health boards can undertake both commissioning and provision. Former Welsh health Ministers Jon Owen Jones and Win Griffiths have said that the 22 health boards may be too small. They have asked how the Government will restrict the bureaucracy that will probably increase as we move from five health authorities to 22 local health boards. How, indeed?

Neilltuwyd gwariant o £15.5 miliwn o leiaf, ar yr hyn a ddywedwyd wrthym y byddai’n niwtral o ran cost, nid ar roi cleifion yn gyntaf, na lleihau rhestrau aros na gwneud iawn am y diffyg enbyd yn y cyllid i’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans, ond i greu yr hyn a ddisgrifiodd Denzil Davies, yr AS Llafur, fel y gwasanaeth iechyd mwyaf biwrocrataidd yn Ewrop. Nid yw 86 y cant o aelodau Cydffederasiwn y GIG yng Nghymru, sy’n cynrychioli uwch reolwyr y sector iechyd, yn credu y gall 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol ymgymryd â gwaith comisiynu a gwaith darparu. Dywedodd Jon Owen Jones a Win Griffiths, cyn-Weinidogion Iechyd Cymru, y gall y 22 bwrdd iechyd fod yn rhy fach. Maent wedi gofyn sut y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cyfyngu ar y fiwrocratiaeth a fydd fwy na thebyg yn cynyddu wrth inni symud o’r pum awdurdod iechyd i’r 22 bwrdd iechyd lleol. Sut, yn wir?

Since 1999, the number of front-line staff has increased by three per cent, which is welcome. However, the number of administrative staff has grown by three times as much. That is not putting patients first. The £15.5 million that will be spent on bureaucratic restructuring could be used to address the deficit in the funding needed by the ambulance service in Wales to meet its 999 targets and still leave a large sum to be spent on other front-line services.

Ers 1999, mae nifer y staff rheng flaen wedi cynyddu tri y cant, ac mae hynny i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer y staff gweinyddol wedi cynyddu deirgwaith cymaint. Nid rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf yw hynny. Gallai’r £15.5 miliwn a gaiff ei wario ar ailstrwythuro biwrocrataidd gael ei ddefnyddio i fynd i’r afael â’r diffyg o ran yr arian sydd ei angen gan y gwasanaeth ambiwlans yng Nghymru i gyflawni ei dargedau 999 a gadael swm mawr o hyd i’w wario ar wasanaethau rheng flaen eraill.

The ingrained political prejudice of some has left them suspicious of and hostile towards any mention of the independent sector, let alone involvement with it. That is not putting patients first. Putting patients first means ensuring that they receive the treatment that they need without being forced to pay for it. When someone is waiting for surgery for months and years, in increasing levels of discomfort and pain, they do not concern themselves with whether they are treated in the independent sector or the public sector if the treatment is being paid for through taxation. They are not interested in the political arguments behind the use of the public and private sectors. They just want to get well and get treatment and they are right.

Mae rhagfarn wleidyddol ddwfn rhai yn eu gwneud yn ddrwgdybus o, ac yn wrthwynebus i, unrhyw gyfeiriad at y sector annibynnol, heb sôn am ymwneud ag ef. Nid yw hynny’n rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf. Mae rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf yn golygu sicrhau eu bod yn cael triniaeth y mae ei hangen arnynt heb gael eu gorfodi i dalu amdani. Pan fydd rhywun yn disgwyl am lawdriniaeth am fisoedd a blynyddoedd, mewn cyflwr o anesmwythyd a phoen cynyddol, nid ydynt yn poeni a ydynt yn cael eu trin yn y sector annibynnol neu’r sector cyhoeddus os telir am y driniaeth drwy drethiant. Nid oes ddiddordeb ganddynt yn y dadleuon gwleidyddol sydd y tu cefn i’r defnydd o’r sector cyhoeddus a’r sector preifat. Gwella yn unig yw eu dymuniad a hwy sy’n iawn.

NHS Wales would benefit from a growing independent and private sector that can be used in partnership to deliver NHS services. Ideological entrenchment is allowing a situation to develop whereby people languish on waiting lists for years, while those who can afford to pay for treatment are being treated quickly. The two-tier health service that is currently alive and growing, which I am sure all Members would ferociously oppose, is unacceptable. Those fortunate enough to receive prompt treatment, which is increasingly rare, form one tier. Those forced to go for private treatment after mortgaging or remortgaging their houses or running up a huge overdraft constitute the second, which is growing. How many times have we heard stories through our constituency postbags of people borrowing money to have treatment abroad or in the independent sector? It is becoming far too common. However, the Conservative Party is sometimes criticised for drawing comparisons with Europe, often by the same people who seek to criticise us for being anti-European. I do not understand this; there is no waiting list problem in Germany or France. We should readily admit that we have lessons to learn from other countries.

Byddai GIG Cymru yn elwa ar sector annibynnol a phreifat cynyddol a all gael ei ddefnyddio i ddarparu gwasanaethau’r GIG. Mae agweddau ideolegol disymud yn galluogi i sefyllfa ddatblygu lle mae pobl yn gwywo ar restrau aros am flynyddoedd, tra bod pobl sy’n gallu talu am driniaeth yn cael eu trin yn gyflym. Mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd dwy-haen sydd yn fyw ac ar gynnydd ar hyn o bryd, yr wyf i’n siŵr y byddai’r Aelodau yn ei wrthwynebu’n ffyrnig, yn annerbyniol. Mae’r rhai sy’n ddigon ffodus i gael triniaeth brydlon, sy’n gynyddol brin, yn ffurfio un haen. Ffurfir yr ail, grŵp sydd ar gynnydd, gan y rhai a orfodir i gael triniaeth breifat ar ôl morgeisio neu ailforgeisio eu cartrefi neu gael gorddrafft enfawr. Sawl gwaith a glywsom, drwy lythyrau etholwyr, am bobl yn benthyca arian i gael triniaeth dramor neu yn y sector annibynnol? Mae’n beth llawer rhy gyffredin erbyn hyn. Fodd bynnag, beirniedir y Blaid Geidwadol weithiau am dynnu cymariaethau ag Ewrop, yn aml gan yr un bobl sy’n dymuno ein beirniadu o fod yn wrth-Ewropeaidd. Nid wyf yn deall hyn; nid oes problem o ran rhestrau aros yn yr Almaen nac yn Ffrainc. Dylem gyfaddef yn barod bod gennym wersi i’w dysgu oddi wrth wledydd eraill.

There are even two geographical tiers within the UK NHS: one in England and another in Wales. An orthopaedic patient in Powys was told by her consultant at a hospital in England that he had to practice a two-tier waiting list because English health authorities were being funded to meet shorter waiting times than those in Wales. This means that residents in England would be treated first to meet the targets set there. On being questioned about this, the Minister has told me that she has set different priorities. This often means that patients in Wales are getting second class treatment and patients living on the English/Welsh border are experiencing this. In that context, spending £15.5 million on bureaucracy and increasing the number of administrative staff three times faster than that of front-line staff seem to be a strange set of priorities. That is not putting patients first.

Mae hyd yn oed ddwy haen ddaearyddol o fewn y GIG yn y DU: un yn Lloegr ac un arall yng Nghymru. Dywedwyd wrth glaf orthopedig ym Mhowys gan ei hymgynghorydd mewn ysbyty yn Lloegr fod yn rhaid iddo weithredu rhestr aros dwy haen oherwydd bod awdurdodau iechyd Lloegr yn cael eu hariannu i gyflawni amserordd aros byrrach na’r rhai i Gymru. Golyga hyn fod trigolion yn Lloegr yn cael eu trin gyntaf i gyflawni’r targedau a osodwyd yno. Wedi ei holi am hyn, dywedodd y Gweinidog wrthyf ei bod wedi gosod blaenoriaethau gwahanol. Golyga hyn yn aml fod cleifion yng Nghymru yn cael triniaeth eilradd a bod cleifion sy’n byw ar y gororau yn cael profiad o hyn. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, mae gwario £15.5 miliwn ar fiwrocratiaeth a threblu nifer y staff gweinyddol o gymharu â’r staff rheng flaen yn ymddangos i mi fel blaenoriaethau rhyfedd. Nid rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf yw hynny.

If the Government were putting patients first, it would not be attempting to centralise health care provision in some areas. To suggest, as the Specialised Health Services Commission for Wales has, that the paediatric neuro-surgery unit should be moved from Morriston Hospital in Swansea to Cardiff is not putting the needs of patients or their families first. The Royal College of Neurosurgeons has issued guidance stating that children require access to neurological treatment within two hours. Therefore, that proposal is simply wrong and it is high time that the Minister said no to it. Transferring the present unit from Swansea to Cardiff would make it impossible for children living in the furthest parts of my constituency, in Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and most of Powys, to receive treatment within this time constraint. Access to the University Hospital of Wales site is also difficult and it does not have a helicopter pad such as that available at Morriston Hospital. Clinicians and parents are rightly outraged and concerned. This proposal is about putting centralisation first and patients second.

Pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf, ni fyddai’n ceisio canoli darpariaeth gofal iechyd mewn rhai ardaloedd. Nid yw awgrymu, fel y gwnaeth Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru y dylai’r uned niwrolawdriniaeth baediatrig gael ei symud o Ysbyty Treforys yn Abertawe i Gaerdydd, yn rhoi cleifion na’u teuluoedd yn gyntaf. Cyhoeddodd Coleg Brenhinol y Niwrolawfeddygon ganllawiau yn datgan bod angen i driniaeth niwrolegol fod ar gael i blant o fewn dwy awr. Felly, mae’r cynnig hwnnw’n amlwg yn anghywir ac mae’n hen bryd i’r Gweinidog ei wrthod. Byddai trosglwyddo’r uned bresennol o Abertawe i Gaerdydd yn ei gwneud yn amhosibl i blant sy’n byw ym mannau pellaf fy etholaeth yn Sir Benfro, Ceredigion a’r rhan fwyaf o Bowys gael triniaeth o fewn y cyfyngiad amser hwn. Mae’n anodd cyrraedd safle Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru hefyd ac nid yw’n berchen ar lanfa hofrennydd megis yr un sydd ar gael yn Ysbyty Treforys. Mae’n iawn bod clinigwyr a rhieni wedi’u cythruddo ac yn pryderu. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn ymwneud â rhoi canoli’n gyntaf a chleifion yn ail.

I am happy to be fair to the Government by saying that there was some good news in the draft budget announced yesterday. I was particularly pleased about the announcement that money would be given to build a new hospital in Tenby. The Minister will know that I have been campaigning long and hard for that. Any other decision would have been unacceptable. We now want to see progress with regard to the hospital. The alternative plan of using beds in the independent sector would have reduced the number available. I am glad that the Minister has accepted that.

Yr wyf yn fodlon bod yn deg â’r Llywodraeth drwy ddweud bod peth newyddion da yn y gyllideb ddrafft a gyhoeddwyd ddoe. Yr oeddwn yn arbennig o fodlon â’r cyhoeddiad y byddai arian yn cael ei roi i godi ysbyty newydd yn Ninbych-y-Pysgod. Bydd y Gweinidog yn gwybod fy mod wedi ymgyrchu’n ddygn dros hynny ers amser. Byddai unrhyw benderfyniad arall wedi bod yn annerbyniol. Yn awr yr ydym am weld datblygiad ynglŷn â’r ysbyty hwnnw. Byddai’r cynllun amgen o ddefnyddio gwelyau yn y sector annibynnol wedi lleihau’r nifer oedd ar gael. Mae’n dda gennyf fod y Gweinidog wedi derbyn hynny.

Closing care homes in the independent sector throughout Wales because of Government red tape and a lack of support is forcing people to stay in hospital longer because there are not enough spaces left in the care homes. Bed blocking—an unpleasant but accurate description—means that fewer people can be treated in hospitals. That is not putting patients first. Support must be given to care homes, and care homes in the independent sector should be treated fairly so that hospital beds can be freed up for treatment. That would put patients first, and would be a perfect example of the joined-up government that we hear so much about but have seen so little of since 1999.

Mae cau cartrefi gofal yn y sector annibynnol ledled Cymru oherwydd biwrocratiaeth y Llywodraeth a diffyg cefnogaeth yn gorfodi pobl i aros yn yr ysbyty yn hwy am nad oes digon o leoedd ar ôl yn y cartrefi gofal. Mae blocio gwelyau—disgrifiad anffodus ond cywir—yn golygu bod llai o bobl yn gallu cael eu trin yn yr ysbytai. Nid yw hynny’n rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf. Rhaid rhoi cefnogaeth i gartrefi gofal, a dylai cartrefi gofal yn y sector annibynnol gael eu trin yn deg fel y gellir rhyddhau gwelyau ysbyty ar gyfer triniaeth. Byddai hynny’n rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf, a byddai’n enghraifft berffaith o lywodraeth gydgysylltiedig y clywn gymaint o sôn amdani ond y gwelsom gyn lleied ohoni ers 1999.

We want to see money invested at the sharp end, care homes funded properly and, above all, a cancellation of the harmful, expensive and unnecessary restructuring.

Yr ydym am weld arian yn cael ei fuddsoddi yn y talcen caled, cartrefi gofal wedi’u hariannu yn gywir ac, yn anad dim, dileu’r ailstrwythuro niweidiol, costus a dianghenraid.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 90

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

If anyone in Wales and across the UK is putting patients first, it is the Labour Government in Westminster and the Labour-led administration in the Assembly. I remind Nick that it was only yesterday that we approved a draft budget that makes the health service in Wales a priority in terms of resources. The budget marks out health and social services for the biggest increases in expenditure. The Conservative agenda is clear: to talk down the NHS and persuade people that, however much money we provide, it will not be enough. We are training more staff, improving services, building more hospitals and making all the investments necessary to deliver a modernised health service. We are committed to a national health service that is free at the point of use and properly funded through general taxation. We are also committed to eradicating the Conservative legacy of a health service that faced 18 years of chronic underinvestment.

Os oes rhywrai yn y DU yn rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf, y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a’r weinyddiaeth yn y Cynulliad o dan arweiniad Llafur yw’r rheini. Carwn atgoffa Nick mai dim ond ddoe y gwnaethom gymeradwyo cyllideb ddrafft sy’n gwneud y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru yn flaenoriaeth o ran adnoddau. Mae’r gyllideb yn nodi iechyd a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ar gyfer y cynnydd mwyaf mewn gwariant. Mae agenda y Ceidwadwyr yn eglur: difrïo y GIG a pherswadio pobl, waeth faint o arian a ddarparwn, na fydd hynny’n ddigon. Yr ydym yn hyfforddi rhagor o staff, yn gwella gwasanaethau, yn codi rhagor o ysbytai ac yn gwneud yr holl fuddsoddiadau sy’n angenrheidiol i ddarparu gwasanaeth iechyd modern. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i wasanaeth iechyd gwladol sy’n ddi-dâl yn y man y caiff ei ddefnyddio ac wedi’i ariannu yn briodol drwy drethiant cyffredinol. Yr ydym hefyd wedi ymrwymo i ddileu yr etifeddiaeth Geidwadol o wasanaeth iechyd a wynebodd 18 mlynedd o danfuddsoddiad dybryd.

Therein lies the problem: your Government ignored demographics and did not plan for a future in which Wales would have a growing ageing population. Even more worrying is that you pulled the rug from under the committed staff who were vital to putting patients first. In the last three years of the Conservative administration, the number of directly employed NHS staff decreased from just under 55,000 to just over 53,000, and the total number of extra GPs recruited was a meagre 24. It will take longer than five years to rebuild but, with Labour Governments in Westminster and the Assembly, we are making an excellent start.

Yn y fan honno mae’r broblem: gwnaeth eich Llywodraeth anwybyddu demograffeg ac ni chynlluniodd ar gyfer dyfodol lle byddai gan Gymru boblogaeth gynyddol a hŷn. Hyd yn oed yn fwy pryderus oedd i chi danseilio staff ymrwymedig a oedd yn hollbwysig wrth roi cleifion yn gyntaf. Yn nhair blynedd diwethaf y weinyddiaeth Geidwadol, gostyngodd nifer y staff GIG a gyflogwyd yn uniongyrchol o ychydig o dan 55,000 i ychydig dros 53,000, a chyfanswm y meddygon teulu a recriwtiwyd oedd 24—sy’n bitw. Bydd yn cymryd rhagor na phum mlynedd i ailadeiladu ond, gyda Llywodraethau Llafur yn San Steffan ac yn y Cynulliad, yr ydym yn gwneud dechrau da.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 91

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I thank Nick Bourne for raising the important topic of putting patients first. As regards the consultation of the Specialised Health Services Commission for Wales on specialised children’s services, will the Minister truly put patients first by responding positively to the petition from 105,000 patients in south-west Wales which calls for the paediatric neurosurgery unit to remain in Swansea?

Diolchaf i Nick Bourne am godi pwnc pwysig, sef rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf. O ran ymgynghoriad y Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol i Gymru ar wasanaethau arbenigol i blant, a wnaiff y Gweinidog roi cleifion yn gyntaf yn wirioneddol drwy ymateb yn gadarnhaol i’r ddeiseb gan 105,000 o gleifion yn y De-orllewin sy’n galw am gadw’r uned niwrolawdriniaeth i blant yn Abertawe?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 91

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I had felt slightly bad for asking Nick for a minute of his time only to use it to attack what he said. However, after his All-Bran joke, I do not feel so badly about it. If there ever was a party that knew about expensive reorganisation, it is the Tory Party. Between 1992 and 1996 there were no less than three expensive major reorganisations under the Conservative Government. Even now, in their manifesto for next year’s Assembly elections, the Conservatives have committed themselves to further health service reorganisation by pledging to create a single health authority.

Yr oeddwn wedi teimlo braidd yn chwithig ynglŷn â gofyn i Nick am funud o’i amser dim ond i feirniadu yr hyn a ddywedodd. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl ei jôc am All-Bran, nid wyf yn teimlo cynddrwg am hynny. Os bu plaid erioed a wyddai am aildrefnu costus, y Blaid Geidwadol yw honno. Rhwng 1992 a 1996 cafwyd tair enghraifft o ad-drefnu mawr a chostus gan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Hyd yn oed yn awr, yn ei maniffesto ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad y flwyddyn nesaf, mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi ymrwymo i ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd ymhellach drwy addo creu un awdurdod iechyd.

The Conservatives talk about the independent sector and, in doing so, Nick is acting as Liam’s little helper. We all know that Liam Fox and a Conservative Government in London would not increase health spending and considers funding health spending through general taxation to be unacceptable. He told the Conservative Medical Association that it is unacceptable to fund the health service through a single stream of taxation.

Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn siarad am y sector annibynnol, ac wrth wneud hynny, mae Nick yn gweithredu fel gwas bach Liam. Gwyddom oll na fyddai Liam Fox a Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn Llundain yn cynyddu gwariant iechyd a bod ariannu gwariant ar iechyd drwy drethiant cyffredinol yn annerbyniol yn eu barn hwy. Dywedodd wrth Gymdeithas Feddygol y Ceidwadwyr ei bod yn annerbyniol ariannu’r gwasanaeth iechyd drwy un ffrwd o drethiant.

We are not doing as well as other parts of Europe on health because, over the last 35 years, the health service has been consistently provided with less funding than health services in other European countries. Only now are we catching up and spending the correct amount of money on our health service. Bearing in mind the 30 years and more of underfunding, it will take far longer than two years of matching European funding levels to match their record on waiting for treatment.

Nid ydym yn gwneud cystal â rhannau eraill o Ewrop ar iechyd oherwydd, dros y 35 mlynedd diwethaf, rhoddwyd llai o arian yn gyson i’r gwasanaeth iechyd na gwasanaethau iechyd mewn gwledydd Ewropeaidd eraill. Dim ond yn awr yr ydym yn gwneud iawn am y gorffennol ac yn gwario’r swm cywir o arian ar ein gwasanaethau iechyd. O gofio’r 30 mlynedd a mwy o danwario, bydd yn cymryd llawer mwy na dwy flynedd o lefelau ariannu Ewropeaidd cyfatebol i fod cystal â hwy o ran aros am driniaeth.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 92

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

It is appropriate that today’s short debate should be on health and putting patients first because I am sure that all Members would agree that, following yesterday’s budget statement, the health and social care budget shows that we are putting patients first. I remind Nick that it was the Labour Government’s 1998 White Paper, ‘Putting Patients First’, that set us firmly on the track to the huge investment that we have made in health and social care. Our commitment was not only in yesterday’s draft budget; the budget of two years ago provided an unprecedented level of extra investment in the health service. The boost to the health and social care budget will provide £1,295 for every man, woman and child in Wales in ertterms of health and social care spending. The budget for health and social care, which stood at £2.5 billion when I became Minister for Health and Social Services, has been increased to £3.8 billion. That is what putting patients first means. It is about ensuring that we can improve treatment and access to it through the expansion of medical education and the development of hospitals and equipment and also improve health.

Mae’n briodol bod dadl fer heddiw ar iechyd a rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf oherwydd yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r holl Aelodau yn cytuno bod y gyllideb iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, ar ôl datganiad y gyllideb ddoe, yn dangos ein bod yn rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf. Fe atgoffaf Nick mai Papur Gwyn Llywodraeth Lafur 1998, ‘Rhoi Cleifion yn Gyntaf’, a’n gosododd yn gadarn ar y llwybr i’r buddsoddiad anferth a wnaethom ym maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Nid yn unig yng nghyllideb ddrafft ddoe y gwelwyd ein hymrwymiad; rhoddodd cyllideb dwy flynedd yn ôl lefel ddigynsail o fuddsoddiad ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Bydd yr hwb i’r gyllideb iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn darparu £1,295 ar gyfer pob dyn, menyw a phlentyn yng Nghymru o ran gwariant iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Safai’r gyllideb iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ar £2.5 biliwn pan ddeuthum yn Weinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac mae wedi cynyddu i £3.8 biliwn. Dyna beth y mae rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf yn ei olygu. Mae a wnelo â sicrhau y gallwn wella triniaeth a mynediad iddi drwy ehangu addysg feddygol a datblygu ysbytai ac offer a hefyd wella iechyd.

David Melding spoken in English p. 93

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

You are right to point to the increased investment, or spending, or whatever gloss you wish to put on it. The increase is significant and that has been freely acknowledged by the other parties. However, to put patients first, we need to treat more patients and we are not doing so. Is that not central to your difficulties? The reason is that the Finance Minister has parked her tank on your lawn and got Mr Wanless in to tell you how to spend the money.

Yr ydych yn iawn i gyfeirio at y cynnydd mewn buddsoddi, neu wariant neu ba wedd bynnag y dymunwch ei rhoi arno. Mae’r cynnydd yn sylweddol ac mae hynny wedi cael ei gydnabod yn hael gan y pleidiau eraill. Fodd bynnag i roi cleifion yn gyntaf, rhaid inni drin rhagor o gleifion ac nid ydym yn gwneud hynny. Onid yw hynny yn ganolog i’ch anawsterau? Y rheswm yw bod y Gweinidog Cyllid wedi parcio’i thanc ar eich lawnt ac wedi galw Mr Wanless i fewn i ddweud wrthych sut y dylech wario’r arian.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 93

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

We are treating more patients, and modernisation, reform and innovation is taking place right under your nose, David. An important example of this is the new acute medical unit at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, where we have a consultant-led principal entry service. Patients who arrive at the hospital are assessed and referred to the most appropriate consultant. They can then return home having been provided with appropriate care. The innovations of the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government over the last three years have prevented people from having to be admitted to hospital for treatment. Therefore, the number of hospital admissions has reduced, thereby increasing the number of beds available. That is about putting patients first.

Yr ydym yn trin rhagor o gleifion, ac mae moderneiddio, diwygio ac arloesi yn digwydd o dan eich trwyn, David. Enghraifft bwysig o hyn yw’r uned feddygol aciwt newydd yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg, lle mae gennym brif wasanaeth mynediad o dan reolaeth ymgynghorwyr. Mae cleifion sy’n cyrraedd yr ysbyty yn cael eu hasesu a’u cyfeirio at yr ymgynghorwr mwyaf priodol. Gallant wedyn ddychwelyd adref wedi cael y gofal priodol. Mae mentrau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o dan arweiniad Llafur dros y tair blynedd diwethaf wedi atal pobl rhag gorfod cael eu derbyn i ysbyty am driniaeth. Felly, mae nifer y derbyniadau i ysbytai wedi gostwng a thrwy hynny gynyddu nifer y gwelyau sydd ar gael. Hynny yw rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf.

The significant investment in the health service has also reduced waiting times. Improvements have been made in the priority areas of cardiac and orthopaedic surgery over the last year. A total of £12 million was invested in orthopaedics last year to ensure that no-one would wait more than 18 months for hip and joint replacements. We are achieving that target. The number of people waiting more than 18 months has reduced by over 2,000 as a result of that investment. We should congratulate the service on that and recognise the improvements made in that priority area.

Mae’r buddsoddiad arwyddocaol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd wedi gostwng amseroedd aros hefyd. Gwnaed gwelliannau ym meysydd blaenoriaeth sef llawdriniaeth ar y galon a llawdriniaeth orthopedig dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Buddsoddwyd cyfanswm o £12 miliwn mewn gwasanaethau orthopedig y llynedd i sicrhau nad oes neb yn gorfod disgwyl mwy na 18 mis am gluniau a chymalau newydd. Yr ydym yn cyrraedd y targedau hyn. Mae nifer y bobl sy’n disgwyl am fwy na 18 mis wedi gostwng 2,000 o ganlyniad i’r buddsoddiad hwnnw. Dylem longyfarch y gwasanaeth ar hynny a chydnabod y gwelliannau a wnaed yn y maes blaenoriaeth hwnnw.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 94

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I was surprised at David’s intervention because I am sure that he used some of the summer recess to visit hospitals across Wales. Had he talked to hospital staff, he would have heard of the innovative schemes that are treating hundreds, if not thousands, of patients across Wales. It is not possible to reflect that information in the statistics that we have at present. Anyone vaguely familiar with how the service works would know that thousands more patients are being treated in new and innovative ways. It just goes to show how out of touch David is with the reality of the service.

Cefais fy synnu gan ymyriad David oherwydd fy mod yn siŵr iddo dreulio peth o doriad yr haf yn ymweld ag ysbytai ledled Cymru. Pe bai wedi siarad â staff mewn ysbytai, byddai wedi clywed am y cynlluniau dyfeisgar sy’n trin cannoedd os nad miloedd o gleifion ledled Cymru. Nid yw’n bosibl i’r wybodaeth honno gael ei hadlewyrchu yn yr ystadegau sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Byddai unrhyw un sy’n lled gyfarwydd â’r modd y mae’r gwasanaeth yn gweithio yn gwybod bod miloedd yn fwy o gleifion yn cael eu trin mewn ffyrdd newydd a dyfeisgar. Mae’n dangos pa mor anghyfarwydd y mae David â realiti’r gwasanaeth.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 94

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

Nick’s point about reform also made me wonder where he has been for the last year. We discussed the issue this time last year. A long consultation was undertaken over the summer and robust debates were held in Committee and Plenary. The Assembly embraced and endorsed the move to decentralise power to those at the sharp end—to doctors, nurses, and to local government to ensure that social services are at the heart of health and social care, as well as to patients and the voluntary sector. The local health boards will take this forward. David helped me to appoint some excellent chairs to those boards, and I know that he is aware of the developments.

Gwnaeth pwynt Nick am ddiwygio hefyd i mi feddwl lle mae wedi bod dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Trafodwyd y mater gennym ar yr adeg hon y llynedd. Ymgymerwyd ag ymgynghoriad hir dros yr haf a chynhaliwyd dadleuon bywiog yn y Pwyllgorau a’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Croesawodd a chymeradwyodd y Cynulliad yr ymgais i ddatganoli grym i’r rhai ar y talcen caled—i feddygon a nyrsys ac i lywodraeth leol i sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wrth galon gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol yn ogystal â chleifion a’r sector gwirfoddol. Bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn datblygu hyn. Cynorthwyodd David fi i benodi rhai pobl ardderchog i gadeirio’r byrddau hynny, a gwn ei fod yn ymwybodol o’r datblygiadau.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 94

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I hope that the Minister is not suggesting that David’s involvement in appointments means that he approves of the reforms. I hope that she is not suggesting either that she succeeded in getting those reforms through other than by the whipped vote of her party and the Liberal Democrats. There is hostility towards the proposals from many in her own party, and I quoted three Labour MPs who are opposed to them. The central point is that you promised the people of Wales that you would obliterate waiting lists. Do you regard the waiting list position as unacceptable and, if so, do you regret making that promise, on which you have failed to deliver? The situation has deteriorated from month to month, with one exception, since you came to power.

Gobeithiaf nad yw’r Gweinidog yn awgrymu bod ymwneud David â’r penodiadau yn golygu ei fod yn cymeradwyo’r diwygiadau. Gobeithiaf nad yw’n awgrymu ychwaith ei bod wedi llwyddo i gael y diwygiadau hynny wedi’u derbyn ond drwy bleidlais gorfodaeth chwip ei phlaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae gwrthwynebiad i’r cynigion o du llawer yn ei phlaid ei hun, a dyfynnais dri Aelod Seneddol Llafur sy’n eu gwrthwynebu. Y pwynt canolog yw eich bod wedi addo i bobl Cymru y byddech yn dileu rhestrau aros. A ydych o’r farn bod sefyllfa’r rhestrau aros yn annerbyniol ac, os felly, a ydych yn edifar eich bod wedi rhoi’r addewid honno, yr ydych wedi methu ei gwireddu? Mae’r sefyllfa wedi dirywio o fis i fis gydag un eithriad, ers i chi ddod i rym.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 95

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

It is impossible to obliterate waiting lists. If we had a completely healthy population with no need to wait for diagnosis or treatment, we would be living in a different world. We must recognise that, as the statistics show, we have an increasing and huge amount of pressure on emergency services in Wales. I am sure that the ambulance service has told you of its 13 per cent increase in emergency calls. That has had a huge impact, but it is still managing—with additional investment from us—to deliver an excellent service. We must recognise that ill health in the population and the need for emergency services impacts on waiting times. However, our investment and the innovation that we are promoting is key. I know that you, and David, would accept that if a trust is not delivering on expectations, we will ask it why, and review the issues. It is about reform investment and ensuring that we get the best from the service. If we give them money, we want the best back from them in terms of delivery.

Mae amhosibl dileu rhestrau aros. Pe bai gennym boblogaeth gwbl iach heb angen aros am ddiagnosis na thriniaeth, byddem yn byw mewn byd gwahanol. Rhaid inni gydnabod, fel y dengys yr ystadegau, fod pwysau cynyddol ac enfawr ar y gwasanaethau brys yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y gwasanaeth ambiwlans wedi dweud wrthych fod galwadau brys iddo wedi cynyddu 13 y cant. Cafodd hynny effaith fawr, ond mae’n dal i lwyddo—gyda buddsoddiad ychwanegol oddi wrthym ni—i ddarparu gwasanaeth ardderchog. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod afiechyd ymhlith y boblogaeth a’r angen am wasanaethau brys yn effeithio ar amseroedd aros. Fodd bynnag, mae ein buddsoddiad a’r mentergaredd yr ydym yn ei hyrwyddo yn allweddol. Yr wyf yn gwybod eich bod chi, a David, yn derbyn os nad yw ymddiriedolaeth yn cyflawni yn unol â’r disgwyliadau, y byddwn yn gofyn iddi pam, ac yn adolygu’r materion. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â diwygio, buddsoddi a sicrhau ein bod yn cael y gorau o’r gwasanaeth. Os rhown arian iddynt, yr ydym am gael y gorau yn ôl ganddynt hwy o ran cyflawniad.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 95

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

The ambulance service has a 95 per cent eight-minute recovery rate. Clinicians say that a response time of four minutes is necessary to provide emergency help to people with serious injuries. It would cost £16 million to ensure that. Why do you not halt the reorganisation and put that money towards the ambulance service?

Mae gan y gwasanaeth ambiwlans gyfradd ymateb wyth munud o 95%. Dywed clinigwyr fod angen amser ymateb o bedair munud i roi cymorth brys i bobl ag anafiadau difrifol. Byddai’n costu £16 miliwn i sicrhau hynny. Pam na wnewch roi’r gorau i’r ad-drefnu a rhoi’r arian hwnnw tuag at y gwasanaeth ambiwlans?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 95

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Are the opposition parties serious about stopping one of the most innovative and popular NHS reforms? Nick Bourne quoted statements made during consultation. That was before we made changes as a result of that consultation and implemented the new plan. You are undermining your local health board and the people in your community who will sit on that board, as are other opposition Members who criticise this reform. Good people from a variety of backgrounds, including general practitioners, nurses and voluntary sector workers, are coming forward to lead and steer these boards, and many other people will join them to commission services. This year, I will give them an additional £205 million to fund hospital services and primary healthcare. Have you met these people? Are you aware of their commitment?

A yw’r gwrthbleidiau o ddifrif ynglŷn ag atal un o’r diwygiadau GIG mwyaf dyfeisgar a phoblogaidd? Dyfynnodd Nick Bourne ddatganiadau a wnaed yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad. Yr oedd hynny cyn inni wneud newidiadau o ganlyniad i’r ymgynghoriad a gweithredu’r cynllun newydd. Yr ydych yn tanseilio eich bwrdd iechyd lleol a phobl yn eich cymuned a fydd yn eistedd ar y bwrdd hwnnw, fel y gwna Aelodau eraill y gwrthbleidiau sy’n beirniadu’r diwygio hyn. Mae pobl dda o amrywiaeth o gefndiroedd gan gynnwys meddygon teulu, nyrsys a gweithwyr yn y sector gwirfoddol, yn ymgynnig i arwain a llywio’r byrddau hyn, a bydd llawer o bobl eraill yn ymuno â hwy i gomisiynu gwasanaethau. Eleni byddaf yn rhoi £205 miliwn yn ychwanegol iddynt i ariannu gwasanaethau ysbyty a gofal iechyd sylfaenol. A wnaethoch gyfarfod â’r bobl hyn? A ydych yn ymwybodol o’u hymroddiad?

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 96

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

Yes.

Ydwyf.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 96

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I assume, therefore, that you want to keep the health authorities and create another quango to run the health service in Wales. Your arguments are bankrupt given what the people of Wales tell me. The people and patients I have met in the health service and in the voluntary sector want to have a say and a stake in their local health services. They want the Assembly to give them the money so that they can deliver improved care. I beg the opposition parties to speak to the local health boards and hear of their plans and dreams for their communities.

Cymeraf yn ganiataol felly eich bod yn dymuno cadw’r awdurdodau iechyd a chreu cwango arall i redeg y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Mae eich dadleuon yn wag o gofio’r hyn y mae pobl Cymru yn ei ddweud wrthyf. Mae’r bobl a’r cleifion a gyfarfûm yn y gwasanaeth iechyd ac yn y sector gwirfoddol am gael llais a rhan yn eu gwasanaethau iechyd lleol. Maent am i’r Cynulliad roi yr arian iddynt er mwyn iddynt ddarparu gwell gofal. Crefaf ar y gwrthbleidiau i siarad â’r byrddau iechyd lleol a chlywed eu cynlluniau a’u breuddwydion ar gyfer eu cymunedau.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 96

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I asked Gwent Healthcare NHS Trust at its annual general meeting about the reorganisation and the effect of bedblocking. It said that it had made its views known but that its advice had not been accepted. Hospitals within the greater Gwent area are served by one trust, and therefore serve a greater number of people. You have not addressed the issue of orthopaedic beds. Will you apologise to my constituents, who have been waiting for hip and knee operations? I have written to you about this issue many times.

Gofynnais i Ymddiriedolaeth Gofal Iechyd GIG Gwent yn ei chyfarfod am yr ad-drefnu ac effaith blocio gwelyau. Dywedodd yr Ymddiriedolaeth ei bod wedi gwneud ei barn yn hysbys ond nad oedd ei chyngor wedi’i dderbyn. Gwasanaethir ysbytai o fewn ardal Gwent fwyaf gan un ymddiriedolaeth ac felly gwasanaethant nifer fwy o bobl. Nid ydych wedi mynd i’r afael â gwelyau orthopedig. A wnewch chi ymddiheuro i’m hetholwyr sydd wedi bod yn aros am lawdriniaethau clun a phen-glin? Ysgrifennais atoch am y mater hwn sawl gwaith.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 96

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

Over the last two years, the number of patients receiving operations every day in trauma and orthopaedic surgeries has averaged 150. Every day in Wales, 150 people are treated for a fracture, trauma, or because they are on elective waiting lists. An average of nine cardiac patients receive operations every day. That is the kind of statistic that people want to hear. People know, from their own experience, that patients can come through the door and be treated because of our extra investment in hospitals and staff. We have expanded the orthopaedic consultant workforce and we also have a physiotherapy-led orthopaedic clinic in Swansea, of which, I am sure, Dai Lloyd and Swansea colleagues are aware. That clinic is making a difference as it means that not everyone then needs to go on to have surgery, or, if they are waiting for surgery, their pain can be eased. Such innovations are being introduced across Wales, which you are not taking into account. We should put the power, money and resources into the hands of the professionals at primary care level, an idea to which you subscribe—certainly Plaid Cymru subscribes to a primary-healthcare-led service. David Melding also supports our primary care strategy. If you want to do that you must provide the money, resources and power and recognise that our health boards will take this forward. They will provide hospitals with the resources to treat more patients because of the extra money coming through as a result of the health and social care budget. However, it also means that local government will play its part in terms of health and social care.

Dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf, mae 150 o gleifion, ar gyfartaledd, wedi derbyn llawdriniaeth bob dydd mewn clinigau trawma ac orthopedig. Bob dydd yng Nghymru caiff 150 o bobl eu trin am doriadau, trawma, neu eu bod ar restrau aros am driniaeth ddewisol. Ar gyfartaledd, bydd naw o gleifion anhwylderau’r galon yn cael llawdriniaeth bob dydd. Dyna’r math o ystadegyn y mae pobl am ei glywed. Mae pobl yn gwybod o’u profiad eu hunain, fod cleifion yn gallu dod drwy’r drws a chael eu trin oherwydd ein buddsoddiad ychwanegol mewn ysbytai a staff. Yr ydym wedi ehangu’r gweithlu o ymgynghorwyr orthopedig ac mae gennym glinig orthopedig sy’n cael ei lywio gan ffisiotherapi yn Abertawe, yr wyf yn siŵr bod Dai Lloyd a’m cyd-Aelodau yn Abertawe yn ymwybodol ohono. Mae’r clinig hwn yn gwneud gwahaniaeth gan ei fod yn golygu nad yw pawb wedyn yn gorfod mynd ymlaen i gael llawfeddygaeth, neu os ydynt wedi bod yn aros am lawfeddygaeth, fod eu poenau yn cael eu lliniaru. Mae mentrau o’r fath yn cael eu cyflwyno ledled Cymru, nad ydych yn rhoi ystyriaeth iddynt. Dylem roi’r grym, yr arian, a’r adnoddau yn nwylo pobl broffesiynol ar y lefel gofal sylfaenol, syniad yr ydych chi’n cytuno ag ef—yn sicr mae Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi gwasanaeth a arweinir drwy ofal iechyd sylfaenol. Mae David Melding hefyd yn cefnogi ein strategaeth gofal sylfaenol. Os ydych am wenud hynny rhaid ichi ddarparu’r arian, yr adnoddau a’r grym a chydnabod bod ein byrddau iechyd yn mynd i ddatblygu hyn. Byddant hwy yn darparu ysbytai gyda’r adnoddau i drin rhagor o gleifion oherwydd yr arian ychwanegol a ddaw o ganlyniad i’r gyllideb iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, mae hefyd yn golygu y bydd llywodraeth leol yn chwarae ei rhan o ran iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol.

On Nick’s point, he knows that I have worked hard on the subject of the private home care sector and increased funding to local government in the draft budget—an extra £12.4 million has been ring-fenced for local government to deal with delayed transfers of care. That is vital money, not only for the care home sector, with which local authorities can work, but for the provision of community care packages for those who want to remain independent and to return to their own homes when they are discharged from hospital.

O ran pwynt Nick, gŵyr fy mod wedi gweithio’n galed ar fater y sector cartrefi gofal preifat a’r arian ychwanegol i Lywodraeth leol yn y gyllideb ddrafft—cafodd £12.4 miliwn ei glustnodi ar gyfer llywodraeth leol i ymdrin â gohiriadau trosglwyddo gofal. Mae’r arian hwn yn hollbwysig, nid yn unig i’r sector cartrefi gofal, y gall awdurdodau lleol weithio gyda hwy, ond ar gyfer darparu pecynnau gofal cymunedol ar gyfer y rhai sy’n dymuno aros yn annibynnol ac i ddychwelyd i’w cartrefi eu hunain pan gânt eu rhyddhau o’r ysbyty.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 97

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

You mentioned earlier that since you took over as Minister for Health and Social Services in 1999, there has been a significant growth in the level of funding.

Bu ichi sôn yn gynt, ers i chi ymgymryd â swydd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn 1999, bu twf sylweddol yn y lefel ariannu.

The growth has been significant. However, you were elected on a manifesto commitment to reduce waiting times. Are you now saying that you are prepared to be judged on and made accountable for the funding that you have invested into the health service, but not for the increase in waiting lists?

Bu’r twf yn sylweddol. Fodd bynnag cawsoch eich ethol ar ymrwymiad maniffesto i leihau amseroedd aros. A ydych yn awr yn dweud eich bod yn barod i gael eich barnu ar yr arian yr ydych wedi bod yn gyfrifol am ei fuddsoddi yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, a chael eich dwyn i gyfrif am hynny, ond nid ar y cynnydd yn y rhestrau aros.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 98

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

Clearly, I am held to account for all outcomes and every aspect of policy relating to my portfolio. You are all good at holding me to account for the delivery of services and investment, the levels of which have increased substantially—health and social care is again the winner in the draft budget. Reforms are associated with that and the Assembly must recognise that it is not simply a question of investing in the NHS, but also of investing in joined-up health and social care. That will deliver changes and will enable people to leave hospital when they are ready to do so. Nick is right, there are still too many people in hospital who would be much happier at home supported by community care packages. Who secured six weeks free home care to enable people to leave hospital and be cared for in their homes, thereby preventing them from having to go into residential and nursing home care? That was my decision as a result of last year’s budget, and as a result of the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to health and social care.

Yn amlwg caf fy nwyn i gyfrif am yr holl ganlyniadau a phob agwedd ar bolisi sy’n perthyn i’m portffolio. Yr ydych chi i gyd yn dda wrth fy nwyn i gyfrif am gyflwyno gwasanaethau a buddsoddiad, y mae eu lefelau wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol—mae iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol unwaith eto ar eu hennill yn y gyllideb ddrafft. Cysylltir diwygiadau gyda hynny a rhaid i’r Cynulliad gydnabod nad mater o fuddsoddi yn y GIG yn unig ydyw, ond hefyd fuddsoddi mewn iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol cydgysylltiedig. Bydd hynny’n cyflwyno newidiadau ac yn galluogi pobl i adael yr ysbyty pan fyddant yn barod i wneud hynny. Mae Nick yn iawn, mae gormod o lawer o bobl o hyd yn yr ysbyty a fyddai’n hapusach o lawer adref yn cael eu cefnogi gan becynnau gofal cymunedol. Pwy sicrhaodd ofal yn y cartref am chwe wythnos am ddim i alluogi pobl i adael yr ysbyty a chael gofal cartef, a thrwy hynny eu harbed rhag gorfod mynd i ofal cartref preswyl a nyrsio? Fy mhenderfyniad i oedd hynny yn sgîl y gyllideb y llynedd, ac o ganlyniad i ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol.

You must embrace and recognise that this must not only be about the NHS but about the role of social services and the independent sector. That is why I meet the independent sector regularly, and why it will also be engaged in the health and social care and wellbeing strategies. At a local level, they will be the driving force for ensuring that we spend our money most effectively. I am held to account for all this. We have moved on in terms of changes and innovations. We must not only recognise the pressures on and changes in the service, but that we are investing more in our staff in terms of training and education and in terms of pay and conditions. That means investing and ensuring that we have enough resources for a new consultant contract, a new GP contract and ‘Agenda for Change’. That is all part of the draft budget that is coming before you.

Rhaid i chi groesawu a chydnabod bod yn rhaid i hyn nid yn unig ymwneud â’r GIG ond hefyd â rôl y sector annibynnol. Dyna paham fy mod yn cwrdd â’r sector annibynnol yn gyson a pham y bydd hefyd yn ymwneud â strategaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol a lles. Ar y lefel leol, hwy fydd yn gyrru’r agenda i sicrhau ein bod yn gwario’n harian yn fwyaf effeithiol. Fe’m dygir i gyfrif am hyn i gyd. Yr ydym wedi symud ymlaen o ran newidiadau a mentrau. Nid yn unig y mae angen i ni gydnabod y pwysau ar y gwasanaeth, a’r newidiadau iddo, ond ein bod yn buddsoddi rhagor yn ein staff o ran hyfforddiant ac addysg ac o ran cyflogau ac amodau. Mae hyn yn golygu buddsoddi a sicrhau bod gennym ddigon o adnoddau ar gyfer cytundeb newydd i ymgynghorwyr, cytundeb meddygon teulu newydd ac ‘Agenda ar gyfer Newid’. Mae hyn i gyd yn rhan o’r gyllideb ddrafft sy’n dod ger eich bron.

On private facilities, we are in a different position, Nick, in Wales. We have a small capacity in the private healthcare sector in Wales. Health authorities have been free to use the private sector, and they have done so to ensure shorter waiting times. However, it is only when it is in the interest of patients, and the services meet appropriate quality standards, that we use the private sector. Following on from Kirsty’s point about your party’s approach to the private sector, Nick, what is coming through from Liam Fox and your approach in terms of tax relief—

O ran cyfleusterau preifat yr ydym, Nick, mewn sefyllfa wahanol yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gapasiti bach yn y sector gofal iechyd preifat yng Nghymru. Bu awdurdodau iechyd yn rhydd i ddefnyddio’r sector preifat, a gwnaethant hynny i sicrhau amseroedd aros byrrach. Fodd bynnag, dim ond pan fydd hynny er budd y cleifion, a bod y gwasanaethau yn cyrraedd safonau ansawdd priodol, y byddwn yn defnyddio’r sector preifat. Yn dilyn o bwynt Kirsty am agwedd eich plaid at y sector preifat Nick, yr hyn sy’n dod oddi wrth Liam Fox a’ch agwedd o ran rhyddhad trethi—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

Order. May I give you a gentle reminder, Jane, that you need to wind up.

Trefn. A gaf eich atgoffa’n dawel, Jane, bod angen i chi ddirwyn i ben.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 99

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

There are political differences here about reform. To conclude, Nick, I believe that there is consensus in the Assembly that health is at the top of our agenda. Everybody said, both today and yesterday, that they welcomed the extra investment in health and social care. I hope that you also welcome my commitment to reform, and to ensuring that every penny of that additional money reaches patients and that we put patients first. Only a Labour Government in Westminster—and indeed, the Welsh Assembly Government’s draft budget—can deliver that change and that investment.

Mae gwahaniaethau gwleidyddol yma ynglŷn â diwygio. I gloi, Nick, credaf fod consensws yn y Cynulliad bod iechyd ar frig ein hagenda. Dywedodd pawb heddiw a ddoe eu bod yn croesawu’r buddsoddiad ychwanegol mewn iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Gobeithiaf eich bod hefyd yn croesawu fy ymrwymiad i ddiwygio, ac i sicrhau bod pob ceiniog o’r arian ychwanegol yn cyrraedd y cleifion a’n bod yn rhoi cleifion yn gyntaf. Dim ond Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan—ac yn wir cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—a all gyflwyno’r newid a’r buddsoddiad hwnnw.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.21 p.m.

The session ended at 5.21 p.m.