Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mercher 22 Ionawr 2003

Wednesday 22 January 2003

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:27

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r GymraegQuestions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language
    1. 3‘Iaith Pawb’
    2. 4Undeb Rygbi CymruWelsh Rugby Union
    3. 5Diddymu Tîm ‘A’ CymruDisbanding the Wales ‘A’ Team
    4. 7Trafnidiaeth Gyhoeddus i Ddigwyddiadau MawrPublic Transport to Large Events
    5. 8Hanes a Threftadaeth Mudiad Undebau Llafur a Dosbarth GweithiolHistory and Heritage of the Trade Union and Working Class Movement
    6. 10Mesur CyfathrebuCommunications Bill
  2. 11Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru DramorQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad
    1. 11Diogelu Stociau Pysgod yng NghymruConserving Fish Stocks in Wales
    2. 13Profion Gwaed Gamma InterferonGamma Interferon Blood Tests
    3. 14Cnydau a Addaswyd yn EnetigGenetically Modified Crops
    4. 15Prynu Bwyd LleolProcurement of Local Food
    5. 17Cynlluniau Cymorth i FfermwyrFarmers’ Support Schemes
    6. 19Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr yng NghlwydThe National Farmers Union in Clwyd
  3. 21Cwestiynau i’r TrefnyddQuestions to the Business Minister
    1. 21Sianeli CyfathrebuChannels of Communication
    2. 22Cyfle Cyfartal yn y Broses EtholiadolEqual Opportunities in the Electoral Process
    3. 24Proses Benderfynu DryloywTransparency of Decision-making
    4. 25Gwybodaeth sydd yn ‘Niweidiol i’r Broses o Gynnal Materion Cyhoeddus yn Effeithiol’Information ‘Prejudicial to the Effective Conduct of Public Affairs’
    5. 26Aelodau’r Cynulliad a Gweision SifilAssembly Members and Civil Servants
    6. 28Grwpiau Gorchwyl a GorffenTask and Finish Groups
    7. 29Dogfennau ‘Masnachol Gyfrinachol’‘Commercially Confidential’ Documents
  4. 31Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  5. 32Datganiad ar Wasanaethau TrênStatement on Rail Services
  6. 46Datganiad ar y Strategaeth Addysg UwchStatement on the Higher Education Strategy
  7. 59Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 14) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 14) (Wales) 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
  8. 61Rheolau Cynllun Pensiwn Aelodau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales Members’ Pension Scheme Rules 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 63Gwahardd Ysmygu mewn Mannau CyhoeddusThe Prohibition of Smoking in Public Places 1 bleidlais1 vote
  10. 85Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 85Effaith Bosibl yr Argyfwng Rhyngwladol ar Wasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng NghymruThe Potential Effect of the International Crisis on Public Services in Wales

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 14) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 14) (Wales) 2002
Cynnig NDM1297Motion NDM12973600DerbyniwydAdopted
Rheolau Cynllun Pensiwn Aelodau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales Members’ Pension Scheme Rules
Cynnig NDM1298Motion NDM12983800DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwahardd Ysmygu mewn Mannau CyhoeddusThe Prohibition of Smoking in Public Places
Cynnig NDM1270Motion NDM127039010DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg

Questions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language

‘Iaith Pawb’

C1 Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Q1 Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 3

A yw’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu cyhoeddi amserlen i gyd-fynd â ‘Iaith Pawb’, ei chynllun gweithredu ar y Gymraeg? (OAQ21798)

Does the Minister intend to publish a timetable to accompany ‘Iaith Pawb’, her Welsh language action plan? (OAQ21798)

Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 3

Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

‘Iaith Pawb’ is an organic, living document. Therefore I do not wish to commit myself to a rigid timetable, as our policies and initiatives might need to be refined as further research and statistical indicators become available. However, there are targets in ‘Iaith Pawb’ and further work will be done on targets once the census results are available. The Welsh Language Board’s remit letter will also include details on its part in implementing the plan, and this will be included in its corporate plan.

Mae ‘Iaith Pawb’ yn ddogfen organig, fyw. Felly, nid wyf am ymrwymo fy hun i amserlen gaeth, oherwydd efallai y bydd angen coethi ein polisïau a’n mentrau wrth i ragor o ymchwil a dangosyddion ystadegol ymddangos. Fodd bynnag, ceir targedau yn ‘Iaith Pawb’ a chaiff rhagor o waith ei wneud unwaith y bydd canlyniadau’r cyfrifiad ar gael. Bydd llythyr cylch gwaith Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg hefyd yn cynnwys manylion am ei ran ef yn y broses o weithredu’r cynllun, a chaiff hwn ei gynnwys yn ei gynllun corfforaethol.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 3

Dywedasoch wrth agor y ddadl ar ‘Iaith Pawb’ fod yr amser i siarad wedi dod i ben ac mai dyma’r amser i weithredu. Pryd yr ydych yn bwriadu adolygu darpariaeth meithrin cyfrwng Cymraeg, sydd o dan eich rheolaeth o hyd? Os mai yn awr yw’r amser i weithredu, pam mae cylchoedd meithrin yng Ngheredigion yn parhau i dderbyn ffurflenni a phecynnau uniaith Saesneg oddi wrth Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru?

You said in opening the debate on ‘Iaith Pawb’ that the time for talking was over and that it is now time to act. When do you intend to review Welsh-medium nursery provision, which is still under your control? If now is the time to act, why are cylchoedd meithrin in Ceredigion still receiving forms and packs in English only from the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 3

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

You are correct to say that Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin falls within my portfolio. Next year, £3.5 million will be available from the Welsh Language Board for education and training related projects, including Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, the athrawon bro service and latecomers centres. You will probably understand, Elin, that as the debate was only held last week, the implications will not be felt until the next financial year.

Yr ydych yn gywir bod y Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin o fewn fy mhortffolio. Y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd £3.5 miliwn ar gael gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg ar gyfer prosiectau sy’n gysylltiedig ag addysg a hyfforddiant, gan gynnwys y Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, y gwasanaeth athrawon bro a chanolfannau hwyrddyfodiaid. Byddwch fwy na thebyg yn deall, Elin, na chaiff y goblygiadau unrhyw effaith tan y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, gan mai dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf y cynhaliwyd y ddadl.

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

John Griffiths spoken in Welsh p. 4

Wrth symud y cynllun gweithredu yn ei flaen, a wnewch sicrhau bod ardaloedd megis Casnewydd, lle na cheir llawer o ddefnydd o’r Gymraeg, yn derbyn yr adnoddau a’r gefnogaeth angenrheidiol i sicrhau bod y strategaeth yn llwyddo?

In taking the action plan forward, will you ensure that areas such as Newport, where the Welsh language is not widely used, will receive the necessary resources and support to ensure that the strategy succeeds?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 4

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I am aware of your concerns, John, about the area you represent, and as I represent an urban constituency in south-east Wales, I understand some of the issues from my own perspective. I am sure that you will be delighted, therefore, that not only will Newport receive a fair proportion of the streams of money and initiatives that will roll out, but that it is also one of the places being considered as a location for the language action plans—the exciting new initiatives that will be responsive to individual community needs—in the next range of projects. I suggest that you talk to the Welsh Language Board about that.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’ch pryderon, John, ynglŷn â’r ardal yr ydych yn ei chynrychioli, a chan fy mod yn cynrychioli etholaeth drefol yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru, deallaf rai o’r materion o’m safbwynt personol. Felly, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch wrth eich bodd y bydd Casnewydd yn derbyn cyfran deg o’r arian a’r mentrau a gyflwynir, yn ogystal â chael ei ystyried fel lleoliad ar gyfer y cynlluniau gweithredu iaith—y mentrau newydd cyffrous a fydd yn ymateb i anghenion cymunedau unigol—yn y gyfres nesaf o brosiectau. Awgrymaf eich bod yn siarad â Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg ynglŷn â hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 4

Mae cwestiwn 2 (OAQ21794) wedi’i dynnu’n ôl.

Question 2 (OAQ21794) has been withdrawn.

Undeb Rygbi Cymru

Welsh Rugby Union

Q3 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 4

C3 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Would the Minister make a statement on her most recent discussions with the Welsh Rugby Union? (OAQ21838)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch ei thrafodaethau diweddaraf ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru? (OAQ21838)

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 4

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

The First Minister and I met the WRU’s director of rugby, Terry Cobner, before Christmas. I have also met recently with the WRU’s group chief executive, David Moffett. Both meetings provided a useful basis for constructive dialogue about any future Welsh Assembly Government support for the development of rugby or the Millennium Stadium.

Cyfarfu’r Prif Weinidog a minnau â chyfarwyddwr rygbi Undeb Rygbi Cymru, Terry Cobner, cyn y Nadolig. Cyfarfûm hefyd â phrif weithredwr grŵp Undeb Rygbi Cymru yn ddiweddar, sef David Moffett. Darparodd y ddau gyfarfod sylfaen ddefnyddiol ar gyfer deialog adeiladol ynglŷn ag unrhyw gefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ddatblygiad rygbi neu Stadiwm y Mileniwm yn y dyfodol.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 4

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

A rugby academy, which would enable the sport to be appropriately nurtured, is key to the development of Welsh rugby. The WRU, along with other developers, proposes to establish a rugby academy at Island Farm in Bridgend. The planning authority has rejected the proposal, and the WRU has now submitted an identical planning application to Bridgend County Borough Council. The local community does not want to see such a development. What influence can you bring to bear on the WRU, bearing in mind that it is seeking lottery support, and that it requires your support to establish a rugby academy? I am sure that there are appropriate sites throughout Wales where the development of an academy would be welcome. Can you influence the WRU?

Mae academi rygbi, a fyddai’n galluogi’r gêm i gael ei meithrin yn briodol, yn allweddol i ddatblygiad rygbi yng Nghymru. Mae Undeb Rygbi Cymru, ynghyd â datblygwyr eraill, yn bwriadu sefydlu academi rygbi yn Island Farm ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Mae’r awdurdod cynllunio wedi gwrthod y cynnig, ac mae’r undeb bellach wedi cyflwyno cais cynllunio sydd yn union yr un fath i Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Nid yw’r gymuned leol am weld datblygiad o’r fath. Pa ddylanwad y gallwch ei gael ar yr undeb, o gofio ei fod yn ceisio cael cymorth ariannol gan y loteri, a bod angen eich cymorth chi arno i sefydlu academi rygbi? Yr wyf yn siŵr bod safleoedd addas ledled Cymru lle y byddai datblygiad academi yn cael ei groesawu. A allwch ddylanwadu ar yr undeb?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 5

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

The First Minister and I have made our views known on the importance of establishing a rugby academy. We have discussed the possibility of rugby sharing academy premises with another sport so that the support facilities could be used in tandem; that would be an efficient way forward. You will understand that I cannot comment on the details of the Bridgend situation. That is a matter for my colleagues Edwina Hart and Sue Essex, and the application may well come to the Assembly for a decision through the appeals procedure.

Mae’r Prif Weinidog a minnau wedi mynegi ein barn ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd sefydlu academi rygbi. Yr ydym wedi trafod y posibilrwydd y gallai rygbi rannu academi gyda math arall o chwaraeon er mwyn gallu defnyddio’r cyfleusterau cymorth ar y cyd; byddai hynny yn ffordd effeithlon ymlaen. Deallwch na allaf wneud sylwadau ar fanylion y sefyllfa ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Mater i’m cyd-Aelodau, Edwina Hart a Sue Essex, yw hynny, ac mae’n ddigon posibl y bydd y cais yn dod i’r Cynulliad i benderfynu arno drwy’r weithdrefn apeliadau.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 5

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

You will agree that the ongoing discussions on establishing regional teams are key to the future of the WRU. Do you agree that Llanelli RFC is effectively a regional team for west Wales, and will you support the club’s efforts to maintain its status as an autonomous team in any future discussions that you have with the WRU on the regional structure?

Fe gytunwch fod y trafodaethau cyfredol ynglŷn â sefydlu timau rhanbarthol yn allweddol i ddyfodol Undeb Rygbi Cymru. A gytunwch fod clwb rygbi Llanelli, mewn gwirionedd, yn dîm rhanbarthol ar gyfer gorllewin Cymru, ac a wnewch gefnogi ymdrechion y clwb i gynnal ei statws fel tîm annibynnol mewn unrhyw drafodaethau a gewch yn y dyfodol gydag Undeb Rygbi Cymru ynglŷn â’r strwythur rhanbarthol?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 5

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I understand your local perspective on this. In my discussions with David Moffett a few weeks ago, we only discussed the principles of reconfiguring teams in Wales. The WRU urgently needs to reconfigure and restructure in order to make itself more financially viable, and the proposals are being introduced in that context. I have never sought to suggest to the WRU how it might arrange the teams.

Deallaf eich safbwynt lleol o ran y mater hwn. Yn ystod fy nhrafodaethau â David Moffett ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, dim ond yr egwyddorion o ailffurfio timau yng Nghymru a drafodwyd. Mae angen i Undeb Rygbi Cymru ailffurfio ac ailstrwythuro ei hun ar fyrder er mwyn ei wneud yn fwy dichonadwy yn ariannol, a chyflwynir y cynigion yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Nid wyf erioed wedi ceisio awgrymu wrth Undeb Rygbi Cymru sut y dylai drefnu ei dimau.

Diddymu Tîm ‘A’ Cymru

Disbanding the Wales ‘A’ Team

C4 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Q4 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 5

A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal trafodaethau â chynrychiolwyr Undeb Rygbi Cymru ynghylch ei benderfyniad i ddiddymu tîm ‘A’ Cymru? (OAQ21793)

Has the Minister had any discussions with representatives of the Welsh Rugby Union regarding its decision to disband the Wales ‘A’ team? (OAQ21793)

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 6

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

This was mentioned at my meeting with David Moffett on 7 January in the context of our discussion on the significant financial savings that the WRU has identified and implemented as a priority.

Crybwyllwyd hyn yn fy nghyfarfod â David Moffett ar 7 Ionawr yng nghyd-destun ein trafodaeth ynglŷn â’r arbedion ariannol sylweddol y mae Undeb Rygbi Cymru wedi’u nodi ac y mae’n gweithredu arnynt fel blaenoriaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 6

Yn ogystal â phwysigrwydd cadw Llanelli fel tîm rhanbarthol ar wahân, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod datblygu talent drwy gyfrwng y tîm ‘A’ a rhoi cyfle i bobl chwarae ar y lefel honno yn hanfodol ar gyfer dyfodol ffyniannus tîm cenedlaethol Cymru? A wnaiff ymrwymo i gynnal trafodaethau pellach ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru—gwn ei bod yn cynnal trafodaethau cyffredinol creadigol â Glanmor Griffiths—a sicrhau y tanlinellir pwysigrwydd y tîm ‘A’ i ddatblygiad rygbi cenedlaethol Cymru?

In addition to the importance of retaining Llanelli as a separate regional team, does the Minister agree that developing talent through the ‘A’ team and giving people an opportunity to play at that level is essential for the successful future of Wales’s national team? Will she give a commitment to holding further discussions with the Welsh Rugby Union—I know that she has creative general discussions with Glanmor Griffiths—and ensure that the importance of the ‘A’ team to the development of Welsh national rugby is emphasised?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 6

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I would deplore any permanent reduction in the opportunities for young people to play rugby and represent their country. The WRU faces urgent issues, and it was in that context that the discussions took place. I will meet with David Moffett again and I will address this issue in terms of the long-term future of rugby. Providing opportunities for young people as part of a pyramid of development is crucial in sport.

Buaswn yn gresynu at unrhyw ostyngiad parhaol yn y cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc chwarae rygbi a chynrychioli eu gwlad. Mae Undeb Rygbi Cymru yn wynebu materion sydd angen eu datrys ar fyrder, a chynhaliwyd y trafodaethau yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Byddaf yn cwrdd â David Moffett eto ac yn mynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn yng nghyd-destun dyfodol hirdymor rygbi. Mae darparu cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc fel rhan o byramid datblygiad yn hanfodol ym myd chwaraeon.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 6

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I listened with interest to your comments. I make a plea from north Wales, which has been left out of the redevelopment of rugby in Wales. We now have the grass roots, a strong set up, and some outstanding young players, who we hope will play for the national side in due course. To follow on from Rhodri Glyn, to disband the ‘A’ team, which north Wales saw as a stepping stone to make a mark in Welsh rugby, is to the detriment of the game in Wales, so will you bring pressure to bear on the WRU to ensure that that stepping stone is not removed?

Gwrandawais yn astud ar eich sylwadau. Gwnaf gais ar ran y gogledd, sydd wedi’i hepgor o’r broses o ailddatblygu rygbi yng Nghymru. Bellach, mae gennym y sylfeini, system gryf, a rhai chwaraewyr ifanc rhagorol, a fydd, gobeithio, yn chwarae i’r tîm cenedlaethol maes o law. I ategu’r hyn a ddywedodd Rhodri Glyn, byddai diddymu’r tîm ‘A’, yr oedd y gogledd yn ei weld fel cam tuag at wneud ei farc ar rygbi yng Nghymru, yn golled i’r gêm yng Nghymru, felly a roddwch bwysau ar yr undeb i sicrhau na ddiddymir y tîm?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 7

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I understand your concern in the light of recent discussions within the Welsh Rugby Union, but the internal configuration of teams must be its decision. It is likely that in the near future the Sports Council will have further discussions with the WRU about developing the sport in Wales. One of its key criteria is that opportunities should be available equally throughout Wales, and that will be a theme in its discussions and will be a prominent factor in its decision on any further funding.

Deallaf eich pryderon yng ngoleuni’r trafodaethau diweddar o fewn Undeb Rygbi Cymru, ond yr undeb sydd i benderfynu ar gyfluniad mewnol y timau. Mae’n debygol, yn y dyfodol agos, y bydd y Cyngor Chwaraeon yn cynnal rhagor o drafodaethau gyda’r undeb ynglŷn â datblygu’r gêm yng Nghymru. Un o’i feini prawf allweddol yw y dylai cyfleoedd fod ar gael yn gyfartal ledled Cymru, a bydd hynny’n thema yn ei drafodaethau ac yn ffactor amlwg yn ei benderfyniad ynglŷn ag unrhyw gyllid yn y dyfodol.

Trafnidiaeth Gyhoeddus i Ddigwyddiadau Mawr

Public Transport to Large Events

Q5 David Davies spoken in English p. 7

C5 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

What discussions has the Minister had with Sue Essex to ensure that there is adequate public transport for people travelling to and from large sporting events? (OAQ21855)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cynnal â Sue Essex i sicrhau bod digon o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus ar gael i gludo pobl i ddigwyddiadau mawr ym myd chwaraeon, ac oddi yno? (OAQ21855)

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 7

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I had helpful discussions on that issue with Sue Essex and the senior Assembly Government officials responsible for transport policy, and I will be keeping closely in touch with developments.

Cefais drafodaethau defnyddiol ar y mater hwn gyda Sue Essex ac uwch swyddogion Llywodraeth y Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol am y polisi trafnidiaeth, a byddaf yn cadw llygaid barcud ar y datblygiadau.

David Davies spoken in English p. 7

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

You will be aware that there will be no post-match trains east of Newport on the day of the Wales versus England international rugby match. The managing director of Wales and Borders Trains blames the WRU and the BBC for scheduling the match at a time to suit prospective television audiences. Whoever is to blame—and I suspect that all parties must carry their share—this is a shambles that will encourage people to perceive Cardiff to be a parochial backwater rather than an international city. What discussions have you had with the parties involved, and what action will you take to ensure that this shambles will not happen again?

Fe wyddoch na fydd unrhyw drenau yn rhedeg i’r dwyrain o Gasnewydd ar ôl y gêm rygbi rhyngwladol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Mae rheolwr-gyfarwyddwr Wales and Borders Trains yn beio Undeb Rygbi Cymru a’r BBC am drefnu’r gêm ar amser sy’n gweddu i gynulleidfaoedd teledu posibl. Pwy bynnag sydd ar fai—ac yr wyf yn amau bod yn rhaid i bob ochr gymryd cyfrifoldeb—mae hyn yn draed moch a fydd yn annog pobl i weld Caerdydd fel lle marwaidd plwyfol yn hytrach na dinas ryngwladol. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r bobl dan sylw, a pha gamau a gymerwch i sicrhau na fydd hyn yn digwydd eto?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 7

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I agree that it will have an adverse effect on Cardiff and on its image. I am concerned that people have known about the issue for many months, yet none of the parties involved are willing to make any changes to enable us to resolve the situation. Sue Essex held discussions with the Strategic Rail Authority, which is her responsibility, and she made our views clear. It is important to emphasise that the decision was made on safety grounds. We must be cautious rather than gung-ho in overriding any safety concerns. Having said that, the decision is an appalling indictment of the state of the railways, given that there is no spare rolling stock and apparently there are no spare staff to provide the services that are required, without taking them away from other parts of the country.

Cytunaf y caiff effaith andwyol ar Gaerdydd a’i delwedd. Yr wyf yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r ffaith bod pobl wedi bod yn ymwybodol o’r mater ers misoedd lawer, ond nad oes unrhyw un sy’n gysylltiedig ag ef yn fodlon gwneud newidiadau er mwyn ein galluogi i ddatrys y sefyllfa. Cynhaliodd Sue Essex drafodaethau gyda’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, sef ei chyfrifoldeb hi, a gwnaeth ein barn yn glir. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio y gwnaethwpyd y penderfyniad ar sail diogelwch. Rhaid inni fod yn ofalus yn hytrach na diystyru unrhyw bryderon am ddiogelwch. Wedi dweud hynny, mae’r penderfyniad yn arwydd gwarthus o gyflwr y rheilffyrdd, o gofio nad oes cerbydau dros ben ac mae’n debyg nad oes staff dros ben i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen, heb eu cymryd o rannau eraill o’r wlad.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 8

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you welcome, as I do, the good work and leadership of Sue Essex on reopening the passenger rail service from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff in 2005? Do you agree that her work will provide more than 100,000 people with improved access to major sporting and cultural events in the capital city when the line reopens?

A ydych yn croesawu, fel minnau, waith ac arweinyddiaeth dda Sue Essex o ran ailagor y gwasanaeth rheilffyrdd i deithwyr o Lynebwy i Gaerdydd yn 2005? A gytunwch y bydd ei gwaith yn ei gwneud yn haws i dros 100,000 o bobl deithio i ddigwyddiadau chwaraeon a diwylliannol mawr yn y brifddinas pan fydd y llinell yn ailagor?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 8

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I agree with you, Peter, which does not happen very often. Sue Essex has done some superb work in re-establishing and improving rail routes. The key issue, from our point of view, is to make sure that in future our influence on bodies like the SRA gives us the power to act not just on the general issues that you are talking about, but also on more specific problems.

Cytunaf â chi, Peter, ac nid yw hynny’n digwydd yn aml iawn. Mae Sue Essex wedi gwneud gwaith rhagorol i ailsefydlu a gwella llwybrau rheilffyrdd. Y mater allweddol, o’n safbwynt ni, yw sicrhau bod ein dylanwad ar gyrff fel yr SRA yn y dyfodol yn rhoi’r pŵer inni weithredu ar broblemau mwy penodol, ac nid ar y materion cyffredinol yr ydych yn siarad amdanynt yn unig.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 8

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Given the impact of the refusal by the company to run these services, do you think that it is a suitable recipient of the new 15-year rail franchise?

Gan ystyried effaith penderfyniad y cwmni i wrthod rhedeg y gwasanaethau hyn, a gredwch bod y cwmni hwn yn addas i dderbyn y fasnachfraint rheilffyrdd 15-mlynedd newydd?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 8

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Order. This question is about travelling to sporting events.

Trefn. Mae’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud â theithio i ddigwyddiadau chwaraeon.

Hanes a Threftadaeth Mudiad Undebau Llafur a Dosbarth Gweithiol

History and Heritage of the Trade Union and Working Class Movement

Q6 Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 8

C6 Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Are there any plans to promote the history and heritage of the trade union and working class movement in Wales? (OAQ21779)

A oes unrhyw gynlluniau ar y gweill i hyrwyddo hanes a threftadaeth mudiad undebau llafur a dosbarth gweithiol Cymru? (OAQ21779)

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 8

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The history of the trade union and working class movements in Wales is already portrayed in several sites belonging to the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, including the Welsh slate museum at Llanberis and the Big Pit. Current re-development projects at the museum of the Welsh woollen industry and the new national waterfront museum in Swansea will both feature the trade union and labour movements in Wales.

Caiff hanes mudiad undebau llafur a dosbarth gweithiol Cymru ei bortreadu eisoes ar sawl safle sy’n perthyn i Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, gan gynnwys amgueddfa lechi Cymru yn Llanberis a’r Pwll Mawr. Bydd y prosiectau ailddatblygu presennol yn amgueddfa diwydiant gwlân Cymru a’r amgueddfa genedlaethol newydd y glannau yn Abertawe yn cynnwys y mudiad undebau llafur a’r mudiad llafur yng Nghymru.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 9

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I welcome those developments. They are small steps forward. However, over the last 150 years, the Labour and trade union movements have made a massive imprint on the culture and heritage of Wales. In view of that massive contribution, do you agree that we need a greater and more substantial monument to that legacy and heritage?

Croesawaf y datblygiadau hynny. Maent yn gamau bach ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, dros y 150 mlynedd diwethaf, mae’r mudiadau Llafur ac undebau llafur wedi cael dylanwad enfawr ar ddiwylliant a threftadaeth Cymru. Gan gofio’r cyfraniad enfawr hwnnw, a gytunwch fod angen coffadwriaeth mwy o faint a mwy sylweddol i’r etifeddiaeth a’r dreftadaeth honno?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 9

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I agree that there is scope for further development. For that reason, work is being undertaken at Llanberis to develop a new site that will reflect the history of the slate workers union. The waterfront museum in Swansea will feature the trade unions, political parties, friendly societies, the co-operative movement, chapels, cultural events and the steel, iron, tin plate and copper industries in Wales. I am aware that we were the first industrialised nation in the world. There was a time when the world price of coal was fixed in Cardiff; that must be emphasised in our museums. The Swansea development and further works, which I cannot detail now, in the woollen mill at Drefach Felindre as well as the redevelopment of the Big Pit will emphasise that. I suggest that you talk to your colleague Rosemary Butler about plans in Swansea.

Cytunaf fod lle i ddatblygu ymhellach. Am y rheswm hwnnw, gwneir gwaith yn Llanberis i ddatblygu safle newydd a fydd yn adlewyrchu hanes undeb y gweithwyr llechi. Bydd amgueddfa’r glannau yn Abertawe yn cynnwys yr undebau llafur, pleidiau gwleidyddol, cymdeithasau cyfeillgar, y mudiad cydweithredol, capeli, digwyddiadau diwylliannol a’r diwydiannau dur, haearn, tunplat a chopr yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol mai ni oedd y genedl ddiwydiannol gyntaf yn y byd. Yr oedd adeg pan bennwyd pris glo’r byd yng Nghaerdydd; rhaid pwysleisio hynny yn ein hamgueddfeydd. Bydd y datblygiad yn Abertawe ynghyd â gweithiau eraill, na allaf fanylu arnynt yn awr, yn y ffatri wlân yn Nhrefach Felindre yn ogystal ag ailddatblygu’r Pwll Mawr yn pwysleisio hynny. Awgrymaf eich bod yn siarad â’ch cyd-Aelod Rosemary Butler ynghylch cynlluniau yn Abertawe.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 9

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

In any plans to promote the history of the trade union movement, will you ensure that due prominence is given to the fact that a Welshman established the first modern trade union—the grand national consolidated trade union. He also founded the co-operative movement and, in correspondence with a clergyman in Manchester, was responsible for coining the word ‘socialism’. That is one of the most important contributions from Wales to the world.

Mewn unrhyw gynlluniau i hyrwyddo hanes mudiad yr undebau llafur, a sicrhewch fod amlygrwydd teilwng yn cael ei roi i’r ffaith mai Cymro a sefydlodd yr undeb llafur modern cyntaf—yr undeb llafur cyfun cenedlaethol mawreddog. Ef a sefydlodd y mudiad cydweithredol hefyd ac, mewn gohebiaeth ag offeiriad ym Manceinion, ef oedd yn gyfrifol am fathu’r gair ‘sosialaeth’. Dyna yw un o’r cyfraniadau pwysicaf a wnaeth Cymru i’r byd.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 10

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I will ensure that that message is given to the national museum. That is reflected in the work of the museum in Newtown.

Sicrhaf y rhoddir y neges honno i’r amgueddfa genedlaethol. Adlewyrchir hynny yng ngwaith yr amgueddfa yn y Drenewydd.

David Melding spoken in English p. 10

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you agree that in any such museum, Dr Gibbons, and many other Labour dinosaurs, would be splendid exhibits? [Laughter.]

A gytunwch y byddai Dr Gibbons, a llawer o ddeinosoriaid Llafur eraill, yn arddangosion ysblennydd, mewn unrhyw amgueddfa o’r fath? [Chwerthin.]

Mesur Cyfathrebu

Communications Bill

C7 Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Q7 Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 10

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch sut y bwriedir diogelu cynhyrchu rhaglenni rhanbarthol o dan y Mesur Cyfathrebu? (OAQ21797)

What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding how the regional production of programming will be safeguarded under the Communications Bill? (OAQ21797)

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 10

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

In its response to the draft Bill, the Welsh Assembly Government urged Ofcom to ensure that quotas were agreed with broadcasters for the time, proportion and investment of regional programming and production. I have made, and continue to make, representations to the UK Government and to the chair of Ofcom on the importance of safeguarding and strengthening this.

Yn ei ymateb i’r Mesur drafft, anogodd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru Ofcom i sicrhau y cytunwyd ar gwotâu gyda darlledwyr ar gyfer amser, cyfran a buddsoddiad rhaglenni a chynyrchiadau rhanbarthol. Yr wyf wedi cyflwyno, ac yn parhau i gyflwyno, sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU a chadeirydd Ofcom ar bwysigrwydd diogelu a chryfhau hyn.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 10

O ystyried fod holl naws y Mesur yn arwain at ddadreoli, sut y gallwn fod yn ffyddiog na fydd grymoedd masnachol yn tagu datblygiad y diwydiant teledu yng Nghymru, yn arbennig gan nad oes gennym ein llais ein hun ar brif fwrdd Ofcom? O ystyried bod y Gweinidog wedi gwneud cais i Ofcom am sicrwydd, pa ateb a gafodd?

Given that the whole ethos of the Bill leads to deregulation, how can we be confident that commercial forces will not stifle the development of the television industry in Wales, particularly as we do not have a voice on the main board of Ofcom? Given that the Minister has asked Ofcom for reassurance, what response did she receive?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 10

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

When I met David Currie and Ian Hargreaves, who has been given special responsibility by Ofcom for the nations and regions of the UK, I took pains to stress the importance of a strong voice for Wales. I am now working to ensure that the representative structure from Wales is as strong as possible.

Pan gyfarfûm â David Currie ac Ian Hargreaves, sydd wedi cael cyfrifoldeb arbennig gan Ofcom ar gyfer gwledydd a rhanbarthau’r DU, euthum i drafferth mawr i bwysleisio pwysigrwydd llais cryf i Gymru. Yr wyf bellach yn gweithio er mwyn sicrhau bod strwythur cynrychioliadol Cymru mor gryf â phosibl.

I was heartened by Tessa Jowell’s recent speech to the broadcasting industry, in which she indicated that she would accept all but two of the recommendations in the Independent Television Commission’s report on regional programming. That report strongly mirrored the comments that arose in our debates on this subject last year. The details on regional programming and production are in clauses 276 to 277 of the Communications Bill and spell out the kind of quotas that we sought when we made our representations.

Fe’m calonogwyd gan araith ddiweddar Tessa Jowell i’r diwydiant darlledu, pan nododd y byddai’n derbyn pob argymhelliad ond dau yn adroddiad y Comisiwn Teledu Annibynnol ar raglenni rhanbarthol. Adlewyrchodd yr adroddiad hwnnw yn gryf y sylwadau a gododd yn ein dadleuon ar y pwnc hwn y llynedd. Mae manylion rhaglenni a chynyrchiadau rhanbarthol yng nghymalau 276 i 277 y Mesur Cyfathrebu ac maent yn nodi’r math o gwotâu yr oeddem yn edrych amdanynt pan gyflwynwyd ein sylwadau.

William Graham spoken in English p. 11

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

You acknowledged the success of BBC2 Wales’s digital channel, which promotes new Welsh entertainers and programme writers. Can you ensure that they can also be enjoyed by viewers of the BBC’s terrestrial television network in Wales and elsewhere in the UK?

Bu ichi gydnabod llwyddiant sianel ddigidol BBC2 Cymru, sy’n hyrwyddo diddanwyr ac ysgrifenwyr rhaglenni Cymreig newydd. A allwch sicrhau y bydd gwylwyr rhwydwaith teledu daearol y BBC yng Nghymru a thu hwnt yn y DU hefyd yn gallu eu mwynhau?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 11

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

As someone who does not have digital television, I understand your point. It often seems that the best bits are on BBC 2W. I do not have control over the BBC, of course, but I will ensure that your point is heard. I discuss such issues with the BBC, because there is a need to develop the excellence of regional broadcasting and ensure a good service for everyone in Wales. Digital television has improved opportunities for people in Wales, but I am concerned about some aspects of its roll-out, in particular, the fact that in many areas of Wales, there is only one option, Sky—for example—or nothing at all.

Deallaf eich pwynt, gan nad oes gennyf deledu digidol. Ymddengys yn aml fod y darnau gorau ar BBC 2W. Nid oes gennyf reolaeth dros y BBC, wrth gwrs, ond byddaf yn sicrhau bod eich pwynt yn cael ei gyfleu. Yr wyf yn trafod materion o’r fath gyda’r BBC, oherwydd mae angen datblygu rhagoriaeth darlledu rhanbarthol a sicrhau gwasanaeth da i bawb yng Nghymru. Mae teledu digidol wedi gwella cyfleoedd i bobl yng Nghymru, ond yr wyf yn pryderu ynglŷn â rhai agweddau ar y modd o’i gyflwyno, yn enwedig y ffaith mai dim ond un opsiwn sydd mewn sawl rhan o Gymru, Sky—er enghraifft— neu ddim byd o gwbl.

Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor

Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad

Diogelu Stociau Pysgod yng Nghymru

Conserving Fish Stocks in Wales

Q1 John Griffiths spoken in English p. 11

C1 John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Will the Minister make a statement on strategies to conserve fish stocks in Wales? (OAQ21767)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar strategaethau i ddiogelu stociau pysgod yng Nghymru? (OAQ21767)

Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 11

Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I understand that this question relates primarily to salmon, trout and eels. The statutory duty to conserve stocks of these fish rests with the Environment Agency. The agency has published conservation and management strategies for each of these species. Strategies are implemented through action plans drawn up in partnership with local interests and supported, as necessary, by relevant by-laws. The agency has recently completed a consultation exercise on a proposed Severn estuary action plan and is considering the responses received. In the event that the agency proposes changes in the current management arrangement, or to by-laws, local interests will have a further opportunity to make their views known before the matter is referred to the Assembly Government for final determination.

Deallaf fod y cwestiwn hwn yn gysylltiedig yn bennaf ag eogiaid, brithyllod a llysywod. Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd sydd â’r ddyletswydd statudol i ddiogelu stociau o’r pysgod hyn. Mae’r asiantaeth wedi cyhoeddi strategaethau cadwraeth a rheoli ar gyfer pob un o’r rhywogaethau hyn. Gweithredir strategaethau drwy gynlluniau gweithredu a lunnir mewn partneriaeth â buddiannau lleol ac a ategir, fel y bo angen, gan yr is-ddeddfau priodol. Cwblhaodd yr asiantaeth ymarfer ymgynghori yn ddiweddar ar gynllun gweithredu arfaethedig moryd afon Hafren ac mae’n ystyried yr ymatebion a ddaeth i law. Os bydd yr asiantaeth yn argymell newidiadau i’r trefniadau rheoli presennol, neu i’r is-ddeddfau, caiff grwpiau lleol â buddiannau gyfle pellach i roi eu barn cyn y cyfeirir y mater i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i benderfynu arno’n derfynol.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 12

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I frequently raise the case of the Severn estuary salmon action plan and its potential impact on the lave-net fishermen in my constituency. These fishermen do not pose a threat to salmon stocks, and their activities are significant assets to Wales in terms of heritage and tourism. The publication of the plan is long overdue, and this is causing uncertainty and anxiety. Do you accept the fishermen’s case, and will you ensure that publication will now follow in short order?

Codaf fater cynllun gweithredu eogiaid moryd afon Hafren a’i effaith bosibl ar bysgotwyr rhwydi-golch yn fy etholaeth i yn aml. Nid yw’r pysgotwyr hyn yn fygythiad i stociau o eogiaid, ac mae eu gweithgareddau yn asedau sylweddol i Gymru o ran treftadaeth a thwristiaeth. Mae’n hen bryd cyhoeddi’r cynllun, ac mae hyn yn achosi ansicrwydd a phryder. A ydych yn derbyn achos y pysgotwyr, ac a fyddwch yn sicrhau y caiff y cynllun ei gyhoeddi yn fuan?

Michael German spoken in English p. 12

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I am aware of the effective way in which you have represented these fishermen’s interests in the Assembly. As you know, the consultation exercise has finished. I know that some fishermen have concerns about proposals contained in the plan. As I indicated earlier, any statutory changes or changes in the management of these fish stocks would come to me and there would be full and open consultation with all interests. There is a clear need to draw this matter to a close as swiftly as possible and thus end any continuing uncertainty for these fishermen.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r ffordd effeithiol yr ydych wedi cynrychioli buddiannau’r pysgotwyr hyn yn y Cynulliad. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r ymarfer ymgynghorol wedi dod i ben. Gwn fod gan rai pysgotwyr bryderon ynglŷn ag argymhellion a gynhwysir yn y cynllun. Fel y nodais yn gynharach, byddai unrhyw newidiadau statudol neu newidiadau i’r broses o reoli’r stociau hyn o bysgod yn dod ataf fi a byddai ymgynghoriad llawn ac agored yn cael ei gynnal gyda phob grŵp â buddiant. Mae angen cau pen y mwdwl ar y mater hwn cyn gynted â phosibl gan leddfu felly unrhyw bryderon sydd gan y pysgotwyr hyn o hyd.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 12

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Given the problems with the support payments to farmers, you obviously have great difficulty with decision-making and writing letters. Can you ensure that some other agency can be brought in to support you with any strategy that you may undertake with regard to fish?

O ystyried y problemau gyda’r taliadau cymorth i ffermwyr, mae’n amlwg eich bod yn cael trafferth mawr i wneud penderfyniadau ac ysgrifennu llythyrau. A allwch sicrhau y bydd rhyw asiantaeth arall yn eich cynorthwyo gydag unrhyw strategaeth y gallech ymgymryd â hi mewn perthynas â physgod?

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I neither understand nor accept the basic premise of the question.

Nid wyf yn deall nac yn derbyn sail y cwestiwn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd pysgota i dwristiaeth ac i’r economi wledig, a bod dŵr-amaeth wedi cael ei glustnodi fel sector a chanddo botensial economaidd enfawr. Sut ydych yn hyrwyddo pysgota a physgodfeydd fel modd i gryfhau’r economi wledig?

The Minister will be aware of the importance of fishing to tourism and to the rural economy, and that aqua-culture has been highlighted as a sector that has massive economic potential. How are you promoting fishing and fisheries as a means of strengthening the rural economy?

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

There are significant opportunities for the development of aqua-culture in Wales. I hope to make an announcement soon on how we will progress those opportunities. On the relationship between fishing and tourism, and the nature of angling in Wales, I recently met representatives of the inland fishing industry and Lord Moran to discuss improving connections between fishing and tourism. A plan is currently out for consultation, and I hope that it will lead to significant changes. I am fully cognisant of the relationship between fishing and tourism and the development possibilities for one of Wales’s most important sports—in terms of numbers—in relation to tourism.

Mae cyfleoedd sylweddol i ddatblygu dŵr-amaeth yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf wneud cyhoeddiad cyn bo hir ar sut y gwneir cynnydd o ran y cyfleoedd hynny. O ran y berthynas rhwng pysgota a thwristiaeth, a natur genweirio yng Nghymru, cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr y diwydiant pysgota mewndirol ac Arglwydd Moran yn ddiweddar i drafod gwella’r cysylltiadau rhwng pysgota a thwristiaeth. Cynhelir ymgynghoriad ar gynllun ar hyn o bryd, a gobeithiaf y bydd yn arwain at newidiadau sylweddol. Yr wyf yn gwbl ymwybodol o’r berthynas rhwng pysgota a thwristiaeth a’r posibiliadau o ran datblygu ar gyfer un o’r chwaraeon pwysicaf yng Nghymru – o ran niferoedd – mewn perthynas â thwristiaeth.

Profion Gwaed Gamma Interferon

Gamma Interferon Blood Tests

Q2 William Graham spoken in English p. 13

C2 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Will the Minister detail the number of farms in Wales currently involved in the trials of the new gamma interferon blood test for detecting bovine tuberculosis in cattle? (OAQ21774)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud faint o ffermydd yng Nghymru sy’n treialu’r prawf gwaed gamma interferon newydd ar gyfer darganfod twbercwlosis mewn gwartheg? (OAQ21774)

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

A total of 14 herds in Wales have been recruited into the gamma interferon trials. Of those, five are piloting the gamma interferon tests, five are having extra severe interpretation applied to test results, and the remaining four herds, representing the status quo, are having test results read under severe interpretation.

Recriwtiwyd cyfanswm o 14 o fuchesi yng Nghymru ar gyfer y treialon gamma interferon. O’r rheini, mae pump yn treialu’r profion gamma interferon, mae canlyniadau profion pump yn cael eu dehongli’n ddifrifol iawn, a darllennir canlyniadau profion y pedair fuches sy’n weddill, sy’n cynrychioli’r status quo, o dan broses ddehongli ddifrifol.

William Graham spoken in English p. 13

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Will you encourage farms in the Monmouthshire TB hotspot to become involved in these trials, and do these trials seek to indicate a definite link between bovine TB and badgers?

A fyddwch yn annog ffermydd yn y rhan o Sir Fynwy lle y bu nifer o achosion o TB i gymryd rhan yn y treialon hyn, ac a yw’r treialon hyn yn ceisio nodi cysylltiad pendant rhwng TB mewn gwartheg a moch daear?

Michael German spoken in English p. 14

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I would encourage any of the candidate herd owners to participate, and while the tests are still in the early stages—they began on 28 October—80 per cent of candidate herd owners who have been approached are opting to participate. I encourage farmers to take part in this exercise, which will help us to understand the science necessary to treat this disease—which is important to all of us—and the relationship between the tests and treatment.

Byddwn yn annog unrhyw un o berchnogion y buchesi sy’n gymwys i gymryd rhan, a chan fod y profion newydd ddechrau—ar 28 Hydref—mae 80 y cant o berchnogion y buchesi sy’n gymwys y gofynnwyd iddynt gymryd rhan wedi dewis gwneud hynny. Anogaf ffermwyr i gymryd rhan yn yr ymarfer hwn, a fydd yn ein helpu i ddeall yr wyddoniaeth sydd ei hangen i drin y clefyd hwn—sy’n bwysig i ni i gyd—a’r berthynas rhwng y profion a’r driniaeth.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 14

Mae pryder mawr ynglŷn â lledaeniad TB yn fy etholaeth i, Ceredigion. A ydych yn bwriadu ailgyflwyno’r arolwg damweiniau traffig er mwyn profi bywyd gwyllt a chreu gwell dealltwriaeth o’r gwir resymau dros ledaeniad TB ymysg y fuches odro?

There is great concern about the spread of TB in my constituency, Ceredigion. Do you intend to reintroduce the review of traffic accidents to test wildlife and create a better understanding of the real reasons for the spread of TB among the dairy herd?

Michael German spoken in English p. 14

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

If I understand you correctly, you are referring to collecting and testing badgers that are killed on the road. It is possible to do that and I have made that point to people who are concerned about this. However, if tests are not being carried out, and you have examples to that end, please let me know.

Os deallaf chi’n gywir, yr ydych yn cyfeirio at gasglu a phrofi moch daear a leddir ar y ffordd. Mae’n bosibl gwneud hynny ac yr wyf wedi gwneud y pwynt hwnnw i bobl sy’n pryderu am hyn. Fodd bynnag, os na chynhelir profion, ac mae gennych enghreifftiau o hynny, rhowch wybod imi.

Cnydau a Addaswyd yn Enetig

Genetically Modified Crops

C3 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Q3 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 14

Pa drafodaethau diweddar y mae’r Gweinidog wedi eu cynnal gyda swyddogion Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig parthed cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig? (OAQ21760)

What recent discussions has the Minister held with officials in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about genetically modified crops? (OAQ21760)

Michael German spoken in English p. 14

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Since 1 November, I have not had any discussions with DEFRA officials. However, I have regular discussions with DEFRA Ministers.

Ni chefais unrhyw drafodaethau â swyddogion DEFRA ers 1 Tachwedd. Fodd bynnag, câf drafodaethau rheolaidd â Gweinidogion DEFRA.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 14

A dderbyniwch bod bai arnoch na wyddoch am fodolaeth yr adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd gan DEFRA noswyl Nadolig? Os oeddech yn gwybod am gynnwys yr adroddiad, a dderbyniwch y dylech fod wedi tynnu sylw’r Cynulliad ato? A gytunwch y dylid cael dadl arall a phleidlais arall ar y rheoliadau ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a dderbyniwyd yn y Cynulliad ar 18 Rhagfyr?

Do you accept that you are at fault for not knowing about the existence of the report published by DEFRA on Christmas eve? If you knew about the contents of that report, do you accept that you should have drawn the Assembly’s attention to it? Do you agree that we should have another debate and a further vote on the regulations on GM crops approved by the Assembly on 18 December?

Michael German spoken in English p. 14

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

As I have already explained, I knew nothing of the report that was published on the DEFRA website, which was a report for England. I cannot accept that I should have known about it because it was not made available to me nor to anyone else beforehand. Since the beginning of January, I pointed out to the Minister concerned that it would have been helpful and appropriate for the National Assembly to be informed about the report. I do not think that the report would have affected the vote on the regulations that we adopted in the Chamber, as it gives added ammunition to those who supported the adoption of the regulations, indicating that cross transference between genetically-modified and non-genetically modified crops is wider than may initially have been anticipated.

Fel yr eglurais eisoes, ni wyddwn unrhyw beth am yr adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd ar wefan DEFRA, a oedd yn adroddiad ar gyfer Lloegr. Ni allaf dderbyn y dylwn fod wedi gwybod amdano gan nad oedd ar gael i mi na neb arall ymlaen llaw. Ers dechrau Ionawr yr wyf wedi hysbysu’r Gweinidog dan sylw y byddai wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol ac yn briodol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gael ei hysbysu o’r adroddiad. Ni chredaf y byddai’r adroddiad wedi effeithio ar bleidlais ar y rheoliadau a fabwysiadwyd gennym yn y Siambr, gan ei fod yn rhoi arfau ychwanegol i’r rhai a oedd yn cefnogi mabwysiadu’r rheoliadau, gan nodi y byddai croes drawsglwyddiad rhwng cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a chnydau nad addaswyd yn enetig yn ehangach nag y disgwyliwyd ar y dechrau.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 15

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

You said that you did not know of the report’s existence and that nobody in DEFRA told you about it. I therefore suggest that you establish a new concordat or protocol between your Department in Wales and DEFRA, because clearly this does not bode well for future relations between Wales and Westminster.

Dywedasoch nad oeddech yn ymwybodol o fodolaeth yr adroddiad ac nad oedd neb yn DEFRA wedi eich hysbysu ohono. Awgrymaf, felly, eich bod yn sefydlu concordat neu brotocol newydd rhwng eich Adran chi yng Nghymru a DEFRA, gan ei bod yn amlwg nad yw hyn yn argoeli’n dda ar gyfer cysylltiadau rhwng Cymru a San Steffan yn y dyfodol.

Michael German spoken in English p. 15

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I have written to Michael Meacher on the matter, because it would have been helpful to know about the report. However, the report was commissioned for England.

Ysgrifennais at Michael Meacher ynglŷn â’r mater, gan y byddai wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol cael gwybod am yr adroddiad. Fodd bynnag, ar gyfer Lloegr y comisiynwyd yr adroddiad.

Prynu Bwyd Lleol

Procurement of Local Food

Q4 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 15

C4 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

What discussions has the Minister had about the procurement of local food with the public sector in Wales? (OAQ21830)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru am brynu bwyd lleol? (OAQ21830)

Michael German spoken in English p. 15

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Work is under way in the Assembly’s Agriculture Department, with the WDA Food Directorate and the Wales procurement initiative team, to take forward the two pathfinder projects on public procurement that I announced in October last year. Arrangements are being made to detail those issues and to provide assistance to key public sector players at an all-Wales conference that will be held at the Montgomery pavilion at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show showground on 26 February.

Mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo o fewn Adran Amaethyddiaeth y Cynulliad, ynghyd â Chyfarwyddiaeth Bwyd y WDA a thîm menter caffael Cymru, i ddatblygu’r gwaith ar y ddau brosiect arloesi ar gaffael cyhoeddus a gyhoeddwyd gennyf ym mis Hydref y llynedd. Mae trefniadau ar y gweill i drefnu’r materion hynny a darparu cymorth i gyfranogwyr allweddol y sector cyhoeddus mewn cynhadledd i Gymru gyfan a gaiff ei chynnal ym mhafiliwn Trefaldwyn ar faes Sioe Amaethyddol Frenhinol Cymru ar 26 Chwefror.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 16

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I am heartened to hear that there will be a conference shortly to progress this important issue. Do you accept that continuity of supply and procurement rules are barriers that must be overcome? What plans do you have to overcome them?

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed y cynhelir cynhadledd yn fuan i ddatblygu’r mater pwysig hwn. A gytunwch fod parhad cyflenwad a rheolau caffael yn rhwystrau y dylid eu goresgyn? Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i’w goresgyn?

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

The procurement rules, or the state aid rules, are the principle problems that we face. We need to provide public procurers of food with the security of knowing that they can procure local food without facing legal problems. I am trying to assist in developing the skills of those who deal with public sector contracts in that regard. Consistency of supply is also important. If a contract specifies that goods are needed throughout the year, then the suppliers have to meet that. I am hopeful that the Powys project, with which you are familiar, will bring together procurers and suppliers of food—and it has begun to do this—to ensure customers’ needs are met.

Y rheolau caffael, neu’r rheolau cymorth gwladol, yw’r prif broblemau sy’n ein hwynebu. Rhaid inni roi sicrwydd i brynwyr bwyd cyhoeddus y gallant brynu bwyd lleol heb wynebu problemau cyfreithiol. Yr wyf yn ceisio cynorthwyo i ddatblygu sgiliau y rhai sy’n ymdrin â chontractau’r sector cyhoeddus yn hynny o beth. Mae cysondeb cyflenwad yn bwysig hefyd. Os yw contract yn nodi bod angen nwyddau drwy gydol y flwyddyn, yna rhaid i gyflenwyr ddiwallu’r angen hwnnw. Yr wyf yn obeithiol y bydd prosiect Powys, sydd yn gyfarwydd ichi, yn dwyn prynwyr a chyflenwyr bwyd at ei gilydd––ac mae hyn wedi dechrau eisoes––er mwyn sicrhau y caiff anghenion cwsmeriaid eu diwallu.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 16

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Yesterday we discussed the use of local produce in canteens. Could the Assembly lead by example? Have you considered, and can you tell us, the source of the food that is served in the canteen in this building?

Ddoe, bu inni drafod y defnydd o gynnyrch lleol mewn ffreuturau. A allai’r Cynulliad arwain y ffordd? A ydych wedi ystyried, ac a allwch ein hysbysu o ffynhonnell y bwyd a gaiff ei weini yn ffreutur yr adeilad hwn?

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

That is a matter for the Presiding Officer and the House Committee.

Mater i’r Llywydd a Phwyllgor y Tŷ yw hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd spoken in English p. 16

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

The Presiding Officer. Indeed. I am grateful to the Minister for pointing that out.

Yn wir. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am nodi hynny.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 16

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Minister, your stewardship of rural development has been one of bungling incompetence—whether on GM crops, late payments or this matter. If you were to honour your promise on performance-related pay we could properly fund Objective 1 projects throughout Wales. What are you doing to fight for the future of small abattoirs so that we can ensure that local produce is available locally?

Weinidog, bu eich stiwardiaeth o ddatblygu gwledig yn gwbl ddi-glem––pa un a oedd hynny o ran cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig, taliadau hwyr neu’r mater hwn. Pe baech i gadw at eich gair o ran tâl ar sail perfformiad, byddem yn gallu ariannu prosiectau Amcan 1 ledled Cymru yn gywir. Beth a wnewch i frwydro dros ddyfodol lladd-dai bach er mwyn inni allu sicrhau bod cynnyrch lleol ar gael yn lleol?

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I assume that you are satisfied that we are taking action on the procurement of local food and that you have read the report commissioned by the WDA. The principal concerns of that report are those that I have mentioned, and we are dealing with them. I note that you did not mention them in your remarks. The future of small abattoirs is of concern to us all, so that we can ensure consistency of supply. The Assembly has encouraged the development of co-operatives and there are significant process and marketing grants available to help people to bring their products to market. That scheme is available in Wales, but not in England. I am sure that you would wish to congratulate us on that as well.

Tybiaf eich bod yn fodlon ein bod yn cymryd camau i gaffael bwyd lleol ac eich bod wedi darllen yr adroddiad a gomisiynodd y WDA. Prif bryderon yr adroddiad hwnnw yw’r rhai a soniais amdanynt, ac yr ydym yn ymdrin â hwy. Nodaf na chyfeiriasoch atynt yn eich sylwadau. Mae dyfodol lladd-dai bach yn destun pryder i bob un ohonom, er mwyn inni allu sicrhau cysondeb cyflenwad. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi annog datblygu cynlluniau cydweithredol ac mae grantiau prosesu a marchnata sylweddol ar gael i helpu pobl i roi eu cynnyrch ar y farchnad. Mae’r cynllun hwnnw ar gael yng Nghymru, ond nid yn Lloegr. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddech yn dymuno ein llongyfarch ar hynny hefyd.

Cynlluniau Cymorth i Ffermwyr

Farmers’ Support Schemes

Q5 David Davies spoken in English p. 17

C5 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Will the Minister advise how many farmers will not receive payment for arable area payment scheme, sheep annual premium scheme and beef special premium scheme claims before 31 January 2003? (OAQ21858)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud faint o ffermwyr na fyddant wedi cael taliadau’r cynllun taliadau arwynebedd tir âr, cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid a’r cynllun premiwm arbennig eidion cyn 31 Ionawr 2003? (OAQ21858)

Michael German spoken in English p. 17

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I am sorry, but I cannot advise how many farmers will not receive payments for the arable area payment scheme, the sheep annual premium scheme and the beef special premium scheme before 31 January. However I can tell you that 93 per cent of SAPS payments have been made to date. BSPS payments started in December and we are aiming to make as many AAPS payments as possible before the European deadline of 31 January 2003. That deadline only applies to AAPS payments. The deadlines for SAPS and BSPS payments are 31 March and 30 June respectively.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond ni allaf ddweud faint o ffermwyr na fyddant wedi derbyn taliadau’r cynllun taliadau arwynebedd tir âr, cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid a’r cynllun premiwm arbennig eidion cyn 31 Ionawr. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud wrthych bod 93 y cant o daliadau cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid wedi cael eu gwneud hyd yn hyn. Dechreuodd y taliadau cynllun premiwm arbennig eidion ym mis Rhagfyr ac anelwn at wneud cymaint â phosibl o daliadau cynllun taliadau arwynebedd tir âr cyn dyddiad olaf Ewrop sef 31 Ionawr 2003. Dim ond i daliadau cynllun taliadau arwynebedd tir âr y mae’r dyddiad olaf hwnnw’n berthnasol. Y dyddiadau olaf ar gyfer taliadau cynllun prewmiwm blynyddol defaid a chynllun premiwm arbennig eidion yw 31 Mawrth a 30 Mehefin yn y drefn honno.

David Davies spoken in English p. 17

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I advise you that the number of farmers who will have received those payments will be small. As for the European Union payment windows, to which you constantly refer, they are not a recommended timetable: if you have not made those payments by the date specified, I understand that the Assembly could be taken to court. We are told that these delays are the result of a computer glitch, which means that we cannot be certain that the payments will be made within the European Union timetable. Is it not the case, Minister, that you are presiding over a shambles and that the Government of Wales is acting like a back-street scrap metal dealer, endlessly promising a cheque in the post, and that you, as the Minister responsible, have failed to get to grips with this wanton incompetence?

Fe’ch hysbysaf mai nifer fach o ffermwyr fydd wedi derbyn y taliadau hynny. O ran amserlenni talu yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, y cyfeiriwch atynt yn gyson, nid argymhellion ydynt: os na fyddwch wedi gwneud y taliadau hynny erbyn y dyddiadau a nodir, deallaf y gellir dwyn y Cynulliad i gyfraith. Dywedir wrthym bod yr oedi hwn yn deillio o broblem gyfrifiadurol, sy’n golygu na allwn fod yn sicr y caiff y taliadau eu gwneud o fewn amserlen yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Onid yw’n wir, Weinidog, eich bod yn gyfrifol am anhrefn a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithredu fel gwerthwr sgrap mewn strydoedd cefn, yn addo yn ddiddiwedd bod siec yn y post, a’ch bod chi, y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol, wedi methu â mynd i’r afael â’r aflerwch hwn na ellir ei esgusodi?

Michael German spoken in English p. 18

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I do not accept any of that. You may recall that I told you yesterday that £73 million had been paid out in common agricultural policy subsidies to farmers in Wales during the past few months, which is more than the amount paid in the same period last year. I can tell you today that that figure has risen to £74 million. I told you yesterday about our concerns in relation to these issues. I have laid out the current position in detail. I am satisfied that the Assembly’s officials are doing all that they can to ensure that payments are made as promptly as possible. You will know that we have recently set up a call centre to help people overcome the genuine difficulties in understanding the payments system.

Ni dderbyniaf hynny o gwbl. Efallai y cofiwch imi eich hysbysu ddoe bod £73 miliwn wedi ei dalu mewn cymorthdaliadau polisi amaethyddol cyffredin i ffermwyr yng Nghymru yn ystod yr ychydig fisoedd diwethaf, sydd yn fwy na’r cyfanswm a dalwyd yn ystod yr un cyfnod y llynedd. Gallaf ddweud wrthych heddiw bod y ffigur hwnnw wedi codi i £74 miliwn. Dywedais wrthych ddoe am ein pryderon o ran y materion hyn. Yr wyf wedi nodi’r sefyllfa bresennol yn fanwl. Yr wyf yn fodlon bod swyddogion y Cynulliad yn gwneud y gorau o fewn eu gallu i sicrhau y gwneir taliadau mor brydlon â phosibl. Gwyddoch ein bod wedi sefydlu canolfan alwadau yn ddiweddar i helpu pobl i oresgyn y trafferthion gwirioneddol a gânt wrth geisio deall y system daliadau.

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 18

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I reiterate David Davies’s point about there being considerable anger in rural areas of Wales that these payments are not being made quicker. What the farmers cannot understand is that, despite this window to which you refer, farmers in England have received their payments, while farmers in Wales have not. We need a categorical assurance from you that an inquiry will be held into this shambles, and that the delays that have occurred in recent weeks will not be repeated. There is considerable anxiety out there. Some farmers have been told that if they can prove hardship by means of a letter from the bank, they will receive their payments manually. How insulting is it for a farmer to have to prove hardship before he can get payments ahead of his neighbour? Will you ensure that these matters are dealt with properly?

Ailadroddaf bwynt David Davies fod cryn ddicter i’w gael yn ardaloedd gwledig Cymru na chaiff y taliadau hyn eu gwneud yn gyflymach. Yr hyn na all y ffermwyr ei ddeall, er gwaethaf yr amserlen y cyfeiriwch ati, yw bod ffermwyr yn Lloegr wedi derbyn eu taliadau, ond nid ffermwyr Cymru. Mae angen sicrwydd pendant gennych y cynhelir ymchwiliad i’r blerwch hwn, ac na fydd yr oedi a ddigwyddodd yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf yn cael eu hailadrodd. Mae pryder dybryd ar lawr gwlad. Mae rhai ffermwyr wedi cael gwybod y byddant yn derbyn eu taliadau yn uniongyrchol pe baent yn gallu profi caledi drwy lythyr gan y banc. Pa mor sarhaus ydyw i ffermwr orfod profi caledi cyn y gall dderbyn taliadau cyn ei gymydog? A wnewch chi sicrhau y caiff y materion hyn eu datrys yn briodol?

You told us yesterday that you were making strong representations to end the 20-day rule in Wales. Will you also confirm that, in a meeting with DEFRA last week, it was not a Minister, but an official, who represented Wales?

Dywedasoch wrthym ddoe eich bod yn cyflwyno sylwadau cryf i ddod â’r rheol 20 diwrnod i ben yng Nghymru. A wnewch chi hefyd gadarnhau, nad Gweinidog, ond swyddog, oedd yn cynrychioli Cymru mewn cyfarfod gyda DEFRA yr wythnos diwethaf?

Michael German spoken in English p. 19

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

It is incorrect to suggest that I have not been involved with discussions with Ministers on this matter. The meetings last week were discussions with stakeholders. I have had separate discussions with the Ministers involved, and will continue to do so. [Interruption.] I repeat that we hold separate meetings with stakeholders in Wales, which I chair.

Mae’n anghywir i awgrymu nad wyf wedi bod yn rhan o drafodaethau â Gweinidogion ar y mater hwn. Trafodaethau â rhanddeiliaid oedd y cyfarfodydd yr wythnos diwethaf. Cefais drafodaethau ar wahân â’r Gweinidogion dan sylw, a byddaf yn parhau i wneud hynny. [Torri ar draws.] Ailadroddaf ein bod yn cynnal cyfarfodydd ar wahân gyda rhanddeiliaid yng Nghymru, o dan fy nghadeiryddiaeth i.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 19

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Is it not correct that there was a meeting was held in London last week to consider this matter—at which you were not present—and that an official represented the Assembly Government? That is a clear question, demanding a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

Onid yw’n wir bod cyfarfod i drafod y mater hwn wedi cael ei gynnal yn Llundain yr wythnos diwethaf––nad oeddech yn bresennol ynddo––ac mai swyddog oedd yn cynrychioli Llywodraeth y Cynulliad? Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn clir, sy’n teilyngu’r ateb ‘ydy’ neu ‘nac ydy’.

Michael German spoken in English p. 19

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

That was a meeting with stakeholders. The stakeholder meetings that take place in London are meetings between the stakeholders and Ministers in London. I have separate meetings with DEFRA Ministers, and I have discussed this matter with them. I have represented Welsh interests at separate meetings with stakeholders in Wales. That is a perfectly appropriate way to move forward. DEFRA officials also meet with stakeholders.

Yr oedd hwnnw’n gyfarfod â rhanddeiliaid. Mae’r cyfarfodydd rhanddeiliaid a gaiff eu cynnal yn Llundain yn gyfarfodydd rhwng rhanddeiliaid a Gweinidogion yn Llundain. Câf gyfarfodydd ar wahân â Gweinidogion DEFRA, a thrafodais y mater hwn gyda hwy. Yr wyf wedi cynrychioli buddiannau Cymru mewn cyfarfodydd â rhanddeiliaid yng Nghymru. Mae hynny yn ffordd gwbl briodol o symud ymlaen. Bydd swyddogion DEFRA hefyd yn cwrdd â rhanddeiliaid.

Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr yng Nghlwyd

The National Farmers Union in Clwyd

Q6 David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 19

C6 David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Would the Minister report on his meeting with Clwyd National Farmers Union farmers in Llangollen on 8 January 2003? (OAQ21770)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi adroddiad ar ei gyfarfod gyda ffermwyr Clwyd o Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr yn Llangollen ar 8 Ionawr 2003? (OAQ21770)

Michael German spoken in English p. 19

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I was invited by the Clwyd county branch of the National Farmers Union Wales to be a guest speaker at its annual general meeting on 8 January in Llangollen. It was an interesting and useful opportunity to hear the concerns of the farming community in the area, including the issues of subsidy payments and the 20-day standstill rule.

Cefais wahoddiad gan gangen sir Clwyd o Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr yng Nghymru i fod yn siaradwr gwadd yn ei chyfarfod cyffredinol blynyddol ar 8 Ionawr yn Llangollen. Yr oedd yn gyfle diddorol a defnyddiol i glywed am bryderon cymuned amaethyddol yr ardal, gan gynnwys materion yn ymwneud â chymorthdaliadau a’r rheol aros 20 diwrnod.

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 20

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Do you agree that the reception given to you at Llangollen was not so much warm as heated? The principal concerns of the farmers were the appalling delay in the processing of SAPS payments and less favoured area payments and your further announcement that it was unlikely that Tir Mynydd payments would be made on time. I am sure that you understand that such delay is having an adverse effect on the financial wellbeing and on the health of farmers and that, at some stage, someone must be held to account. Who do you think should be held to account?

A gytunwch mai tanbaid oedd y teimladau yn Llangollen yn hytrach na chynnes? Prif bryderon y ffermwyr oedd yr oedi dychrynllyd mewn prosesu taliadau cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid a thaliadau ardaloedd llai ffafriol a’ch cyhoeddiad pellach ei bod yn annhebygol y byddai taliadau Tir Mynydd yn cael eu gwneud ar amser. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn deall bod oedi o’r fath yn cael effaith andwyol ar les ariannol ac ar iechyd ffermwyr, a bod yn rhaid i rywun, rywbryd, gymryd cyfrifoldeb. Pwy dybiwch chi ddylai gymryd cyfrifoldeb?

Michael German spoken in English p. 20

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Ninety five per cent—the figure was 93 per cent when I last spoke to you—of the SAPS payments, including premium payments and national envelope payments, have been processed and paid and around 30 per cent of the LFA supplements have also been paid. The deadline for those payments to be made is 31 March 2003. I have explained on many occasions my concern that we are not able to process the payments as rapidly as possible because of the new systems that have been put in place. However, our experience this year will ensure that, in future years, we can adapt and provide benefits in terms of process, automation and control, a document management system, and improved flexibility to handle the new schemes. You will know that every member state will have to face massive changes to their computer systems; we happen to be changing ours first. Contrary to the views expressed by the leader of the opposition, there are delays in processing the payments in England also.

Mae 95 y cant––y ffigur pan siaradais â chi ddiwethaf oedd 93 y cant ––o’r taliadau cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid, gan gynnwys taliadau premiwm a thaliadau amlen cenedlaethol, wedi cael eu prosesu a’u talu ac mae tua 30 y cant o daliadau atodol ardaloedd llai ffafriol wedi cael eu talu hefyd. Y diwrnod olaf ar gyfer talu’r rheini yw 31 Mawrth 2003. Eglurais fy mhryder droeon na fuasem yn gallu prosesu’r taliadau cyn gynted â phosibl oherwydd y systemau newydd a roddwyd ar waith. Fodd bynnag, bydd ein profiad eleni yn sicrhau y byddwn, yn y dyfodol, yn gallu addasu a darparu budd-daliadau o ran y broses, o ran awtomateiddio a rheoli, o ran system rheoli dogfennau ac o ran mwy o hyblygrwydd i ymdrin â chynlluniau newydd. Gwyddoch y bydd pob aelod wladwriaeth yn gorfod wynebu newidiadau enfawr i’w systemau cyfrifiadurol; yr ydym yn digwydd bod yn newid ein rhai ni yn gyntaf. Yn groes i’r farn a fynegwyd gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid, mae oedi gyda phroses taliadau yn Lloegr hefyd.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 20

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

The issue of on-farm animal burials and the problems that that will cause for farmers was also raised at the meeting in Llangollen. What guidance are you issuing to farmers and what kind of support and assistance are you considering?

Cafodd y mater o gladdu anifeiliaid ar ffermydd a’r problemau y bydd hynny yn ei achosi i ffermwyr ei godi yn y cyfarfod yn Llangollen hefyd. Pa ganllawiau a roddwch i ffermwyr a pha fath o gefnogaeth a chymorth yr ydych yn eu hystyried?

Michael German spoken in English p. 20

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That is a UK issue, regarding compliance with the European Union directive. The UK is the last member state to comply with that. It would not make sense for us to have a separate system in Wales. Discussions are ongoing between the UK Government, the Assembly Government and farming bodies about how we proceed with this matter. I have taken on-board several suggestions made to me at that meeting, and I am pursuing them vigorously.

Mater i’r DU yw hynny, o ran cydymffurfio â chyfarwyddeb yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Y DU yw’r aelod wladwriaeth olaf i gydymffurfio â hynny. Ni fyddai’n synhwyrol inni gael system wahanol yng Nghymru. Mae trafodaethau’n parhau rhwng Llywodraeth y DU, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a chyrff amaethyddol ynglŷn â sut i symud y mater hwn yn ei flaen. Yr wyf wedi nodi sawl awgrym a gyflwynwyd imi yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, ac yr wyf yn mynd ar eu trywydd yn ddyfal.

Cwestiynau i’r Trefnydd

Questions to the Business Minister

Sianeli Cyfathrebu

Channels of Communication

C1 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Q1 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 21

Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cymryd i wella’r sianeli cyfathrebu rhwng Aelodau’r Cynulliad a gweision sifil? (OAQ21824)

What steps has the Minister taken to improve channels of communication between Assembly Members and civil servants? (OAQ21824)

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Ni chymerais unrhyw gamau yn ddiweddar ar y mater hwn. Rheolir y sefyllfa o hyd gan adrannau perthnasol y Cod Ymarfer ar Ddarparu Gwybodaeth i Aelodau’r Cynulliad.

I have not taken any steps recently on this matter. The position continues to be controlled by the relevant sections of the Code of Practice on the Provision of Information to Assembly Members.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 21

Er hynny, mae cred bendant ymysg nifer o Aelodau bod y gwasanaeth sifil yn gweithio i’r Llywodraeth yn gyntaf yn hytrach nag i’r Cynulliad fel sefydliad. Gweision y cyhoedd yw gweision sifil ac nid gweision unrhyw blaid arbennig. Pryd y daw’r dydd pan y gall Aelod o’r Cynulliad godi’r ffôn a chael gwybodaeth ffeithiol gan was sifil heb i’r naill na’r llall deimlo’n anghyfforddus?

Despite that, there is a definite belief among many Members that the civil service works for the Government first rather than the Assembly as an establishment. Civil servants are public servants and not servants of any particular party. When will we see the day when an Assembly Member can pick up the phone and receive factual information from a civil servant without either of them feeling uncomfortable?

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 21

Mae’n wir bod y gwasanaeth sifil yn gweithio i’r Llywodraeth. Nid yw hynny’n gyfrinach. Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim yn rhwystro Aelodau’r Cynulliad rhag siarad â gweision sifil ynglŷn â materion ffeithiol. Ni fyddai gwas sifil yn dymuno dadlau am bolisi gydag Aelod gan mai mater gwleidyddol fyddai hynny ond nid oes problem o ran Aelodau’n siarad gyda gweision sifil i wirio manylion a ffeithiau.

It is true that the civil service works for the Government. That is not a secret. However, there is nothing preventing Assembly Members from speaking to civil servants about factual matters. A civil servant would not want to argue about policy matters with a Member as that would be a political issue, but there is no problem with regard to Members speaking to civil servants to check details and facts.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 21

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Does the Minister accept that it is vital that those civil servants who serve Assembly Committees, whether Subject or Standing, and who act impartially and objectively, are protected from political pressure from Assembly Members, Ministers and senior civil servants? I have a particular case in mind, which I do not want to discuss here, but which I am happy to share with the Minister in confidence after Plenary. In general, is he happy to endorse that principle?

A dderbynia’r Gweinidog ei bod yn hanfodol i’r gweision sifil hynny sy’n gwasanaethu Pwyllgorau’r Cynulliad, pa un a ydynt yn Bwyllgorau Pwnc neu’n Bwyllgorau Sefydlog, ac sy’n gweithredu’n ddiduedd ac yn wrthrychol, gael eu diogelu rhag pwysau gwleidyddol gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad, Gweinidogion ac uwch weision sifil? Mae gennyf un achos arbennig dan sylw, nad wyf am ei drafod yma, ond yr wyf yn fodlon ei rannu’n gyfrinachol â’r Gweinidog ar ôl y Cyfarfod Llawn. Yn gyffredinol, a yw’n fodlon cefnogi’r egwyddor honno?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 22

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I am unaware of any problems, but you say that you will raise the matter with me later. It is certainly the case that, as far as the Committee structure is concerned, civil servants who service Committees work closely with the Chairs. Committee agendas are entirely a matter for the Chairs: Ministers do not have a power of veto.

Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw broblemau, ond dywedwch y byddwch yn codi’r mater gyda mi yn ddiweddarach. Yn sicr, mae’n wir, o ran y strwythur Pwyllgorau, bod gweision sifil sy’n gwasanaethu Pwyllgorau yn gweithio’n agos iawn gyda’r Cadeiryddion. Mater i’r Cadeiryddion yn unig yw agendâu Pwyllgorau: nid oes gan Weinidogion yr hawl i wahardd.

Cyfle Cyfartal yn y Broses Etholiadol

Equal Opportunities in the Electoral Process

Q2 Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 22

C2 Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

What recent progress has been made by the Government in promoting equal opportunities in the electoral process? (OAQ21820)

Pa gynnydd a wnaed yn ddiweddar gan y Llywodraeth i hyrwyddo cyfle cyfartal yn y broses etholiadol? (OAQ21820)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 22

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Although the main responsibility for elections in Wales lies with the UK Government and the Electoral Commission, we are doing everything that we can to ensure that the forthcoming election is as open and accessible to all voters as possible. We recently introduced a scheme under which Welsh local authorities can reclaim from the Assembly 50 per cent of the cost of temporary ramps for use at polling stations, in addition to the 50 per cent that they can already claim from the UK Government. This places Welsh authorities—and thus Welsh voters—in a better position than others in the UK, as long as those opportunities are seized.

Er mai Llywodraeth y DU a’r Comisiwn Etholiadol sydd â’r prif gyfrifoldebau dros etholiadau yng Nghymru, yr ydym yn gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i sicrhau y bydd yr etholiad arfaethedig mor agored a hygyrch â phosibl i bob pleidleisiwr. Cyflwynwyd cynllun newydd gennym yn ddiweddar lle y gall awdurdodau lleol Cymru adennill 50 y cant o gostau rampiau dros dro mewn gorsafoedd pleidleisio gan y Cynulliad, yn ogystal â’r 50 y cant y gallant eisoes ei hawlio gan Lywodraeth y DU. Mae hyn yn rhoi awdurdodau Cymru––ac felly etholwyr Cymru––mewn gwell sefyllfa nag eraill yn y DU, cyn belled â’u bod yn manteisio ar y cyfleoedd hynny.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 22

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Thank you for that positive response, Minister. I am sure that you also hope that our local authority will accept the challenge of providing good quality access for all its voters. You may also be aware, Minister, that the Disability Rights Commission and several partner organisations want to undertake an accessibility audit of the voting process at the forthcoming Assembly elections. Will the Assembly Government consider providing financial support for such an audit?

Diolch ichi am yr ymateb cadarnhaol hwnnw, Weinidog. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod hefyd yn gobeithio y bydd ein hawdurdod lleol ni yn derbyn yr her o ddarparu mynediad o ansawdd da ar gyfer ei holl etholwyr. Efallai y byddwch hefyd yn ymwybodol, Weinidog, bod y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd a sawl sefydliad partner arall am gynnal archwiliad hygyrchedd o’r broses bleidleisio yn ystod etholiadau arfaethedig y Cynulliad. A wnaiff Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ystyried rhoi cymorth ariannol i archwiliad o’r fath?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 23

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I am unable to make that commitment now, but it is an interesting idea that deserves to be taken up. If Janice writes to me, we can consider the matter formally.

Ni allaf ymrwymo i hynny yn awr, ond mae’n syniad diddorol sy’n haeddu ystyriaeth. Pe bai Janice yn ysgrifennu ataf, gallwn ystyried y mater yn ffurfiol.

You mentioned our local authority of Bridgend County Borough Council, which closed 15 per cent of its polling stations between 1997 and 2001. Many were closed for obvious reasons, but perhaps the reasons behind closing some others could have been considered more carefully. However, I do not mean to criticise the local authority in any way; suffice to say that help is available should any local authority in Wales need it.

Cyfeiriasoch at Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, sef ein hawdurdod lleol, a gaeodd 15 y cant o’i orsafoedd pleidleisio rhwng 1997 a 2001. Caewyd sawl un am resymau amlwg, ond efallai y byddai wedi bod yn bosibl ystyried y rhesymau dros gau eraill yn fwy gofalus. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn bwriadu beirniadu’r awdurdod lleol mewn unrhyw ffordd; digon yw dweud bod help ar gael pe bai angen hynny ar unrhyw awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 23

Pan gyhoeddodd Edwina Hart y datblygiad hwn cyn y Nadolig, fe’i croesewais a gofynnais a fyddai modd ysgrifennu at bob awdurdod lleol i dynnu eu sylw at y gwelliannau posibl o ran mynediad i bleidleisio ar gyfer pobl anabl. A anfonwyd unrhyw lythyrau ers hynny ac, yn bwysicach, faint o ymholiadau a dderbyniwyd gan awdurdodau lleol sy’n bwriadu gweithredu’r cynllun ardderchog hwn?

When Edwina Hart announced this development before Christmas, I welcomed it and asked whether it was possible to write to every local authority to draw their attention to the possible improvements as regards access to voting for disabled people. Have any letters been sent since then and, more importantly, how many inquiries have been received from local authorities intending to implement this excellent scheme?

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 23

Yn dechnegol, mater i’r Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros lywodraeth leol yw hwn ac nid i mi. Bydd yn rhaid imi ganfod manylion y sefyllfa ac yna ysgrifennu atoch.

Technically, this is a matter for the Minister with responsibility for local government, and not for me. I will have to ascertain the exact position and write to you.

David Melding spoken in English p. 23

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Further to Janice Gregory’s supplementary on the need for a further study on access to polling stations, the Committee on Equality of Opportunity has recommended that a second study be undertaken. The initial study—which was excellent—demonstrated some areas of good practice but, generally, quite a poor situation.

Ymhellach i gwestiwn atodol Janice Gregory ar yr angen am astudiaeth bellach ar fynediad i orsafoedd pleidleisio, mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal wedi argymell y dylid cynnal ail astudiaeth. Dangosodd yr astudiaeth gyntaf––a oedd yn ardderchog––bod arferion da mewn rhai meysydd, ond bod y sefyllfa yn eithaf gwael ar y cyfan.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 23

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

When this was last discussed at the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, it was felt that some local authorities were being overcautious in terms of closing polling stations. The Disability Rights Commission said that there were ways of improving access, for example, by installing weatherproof and slip-proof ramps. Not everybody present that day had that useful information. The suggestion of holding a study is interesting, and I will pursue it.

Pan drafodwyd hyn ddiwethaf yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, y farn oedd bod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn bod yn or-ofalus o ran cau gorsafoedd pleidleisio. Nododd y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd bod ffyrdd o wella mynediad, er enghraifft drwy osod rampiau gwrth-dywydd a gwrth-lithro. Nid oedd y wybodaeth ddefnyddiol honno gan bawb a oedd yn bresennol y diwrnod hwnnw. Mae’r awgrym ynglŷn â chynnal astudiaeth yn ddiddorol, a byddaf yn mynd ar drywydd hynny.

Proses Benderfynu Dryloyw

Transparency of Decision-making

Q3 Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 24

C3 Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

How does the Minister intend to improve the transparency of decision-making in the National Assembly for Wales? (OAQ21849)

Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu sicrhau bod y broses o wneud penderfyniadau yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn fwy agored? (OAQ21849)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 24

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Our commitment to publishing the background to ministerial decisions is reflected both in the existing approach taken to the publication of Cabinet minutes and in the new approach to releasing information from submissions made to Ministers by officials. We are seeking to bring that new process on-board later this year, in accordance with the commitment given in the Assembly’s publication scheme.

Caiff ein hymrwymiad i gyhoeddi’r cefndir y tu ôl i benderfyniadau gweinidogol ei adlewyrchu yn yr ymagwedd bresennol o gyhoeddi cofnodion y Cabinet a’r ymagwedd newydd o ryddhau gwybodaeth o gyflwyniadau a wnaed i Weinidogion gan swyddogion. Bwriadwn gyflwyno’r broses newydd honno yn ddiweddarach eleni, yn unol â’r ymrwymiad yng nghynllun cyhoeddiadau’r Cynulliad.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 24

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

My question relates to the independent appeals panel, with which you are familiar from your previous post. The transparency issue seems to concern the time that it takes to deliver the verdict on cases. This is causing great concern with regard to the transparency of decisions. Many cases, because of mitigating losses, are referred to the Welsh Administration Ombudsman. Is there any way that we can speed up this process, to ensure that it is transparent and that we understand what is happening?

Mae fy nghwestiwn yn ymwneud â’r panel apeliadau annibynnol, a fydd yn gyfarwydd ichi yn dilyn eich swydd flaenorol. Ymddengys bod y mater o dryloywder yn ymwneud â’r amser a gymer i wneud dyfarniad ar achosion. Mae hyn yn achosi pryder mawr o ran tryloywder penderfyniadau. Caiff sawl achos, oherwydd colledion lleddfol, eu cyfeirio at Ombwdsmon Gweinyddiaeth Cymru. A oes unrhyw fodd y gallwn gyflymu’r broses hon, er mwyn sicrhau ei bod yn dryloyw a’n bod yn deall yr hyn sy’n digwydd?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 24

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

You are right that I am familiar with the setting up of the independent appeals panel, but I cannot claim to be completely au fait with the present situation. I suggest that the matter be taken up with the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad for him to explain the detail. He is present in the Chamber; I am sure that you can raise the matter in Committee.

Mae’n wir i ddweud fy mod yn gyfarwydd â sefydlu’r panel apeliadau annibynnol, ond ni allaf honni fy mod yn gwbl gyfarwydd â’r sefyllfa bresennol. Awgrymaf eich bod yn codi’r mater gyda’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor er mwyn iddo egluro’r manylion. Mae’n bresennol yn y Siambr; yr wyf yn siŵr y gallwch godi’r mater yn y Pwyllgor.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 25

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Do you agree that the transparency of decision-making in Wales has been greatly improved since the National Assembly was established, compared to the old Welsh Office days? For instance, as Chair of the North Wales Regional Committee last year, I was happy to hold meetings in many small venues. Do you not agree that this is great progress?

A gytunwch fod tryloywder y broses gwneud penderfyniadau yng Nghymru wedi gwella llawer ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o’i gymharu â dyddiau’r hen Swyddfa Gymreig? Er enghraifft, fel Cadeirydd Pwyllgor Rhanbarth Gogledd Cymru y llynedd, yr oeddwn yn fwy na pharod i gynnal cyfarfodydd mewn sawl lleoliad bach. Oni chytunwch fod hyn yn gynnydd gwych?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 25

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Yes, I agree. We have made the transition from a nation that was governed, in the main, by an unelected old-boy network, drawn from a narrow band of people, where the vast majority of the public had no real idea of what was going on, to a far more open and democratic system of governance. Long may it continue.

Cytunaf. Yr ydym wedi symud o fod yn genedl a lywodraethid, yn bennaf, gan rwydwaith o gyfeillion anetholedig, o gylch cyfyng o bobl, lle nad oedd gan y rhan fwyaf o’r cyhoedd unrhyw syniad gwirioneddol o’r hyn a oedd yn digwydd, i system llawer mwy agored a democrataidd o lywodraethu. Hir oes iddi.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 25

A yw cofnodion y Cabinet yn adlewyrchiad llawn o’r trafodaethau a geir yno? Os ydynt, pam na allwn ddweud pa blaid yw’r orau o ran blaengareddau—y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ynteu’r Blaid Lafur? Mae’n anodd dweud hynny o ddarllen y cofnodion. Pe baem yn gwybod hynny, a phe bai hynny’n gwbl glir, byddai’n ddiwedd ar y ffraeo rhwng y Prif Weinidog a’i ddirprwy.

Are Cabinet minutes a full reflection of the discussions conducted there? If they are, why can we not tell which party is best in terms of initiatives—the Liberal Democrats or the Labour Party? It is difficult to tell that from reading the minutes. If we knew that, and if that were completely clear, it would bring the arguing between the First Minister and his deputy to an end.

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 25

Mae rhai pethau na ellir eu cyhoeddi yng nghofnodion y Cabinet, er enghraifft materion yn ymwneud â diogelwch. Fodd bynnag, nid oes cystadleuaeth rhwng gwahanol Weinidogion y Cabinet ynglŷn â pha blaid sy’n gwneud y gorau dros Gymru. Pobl Cymru fydd yn barnu hynny ym mis Mai.

Some things cannot be published in Cabinet minutes, for example matters relating to security. However, there is no competition between different Cabinet Ministers with regard to which party is doing best for Wales. The people of Wales will judge that in May.

Gwybodaeth sydd yn ‘Niweidiol i’r Broses o Gynnal Materion Cyhoeddus yn Effeithiol’

Information ‘Prejudicial to the Effective Conduct of Public Affairs’

Q4 William Graham spoken in English p. 25

C4 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Will the Minister clarify how information is classified as ‘prejudicial to the effective conduct of public affairs’ and therefore not released for public access? (OAQ21822)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro sut y penderfynir a yw gwybodaeth yn ‘niweidiol i’r broses o gynnal materion cyhoeddus yn effeithiol’ ac o ganlyniad na ellir ei rhyddhau i’r cyhoedd? (OAQ21822)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 25

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

In line with the Assembly’s Code of Practice on Public Access to Information, Ministers and senior officials determine whether disclosure of specific information would prejudice the effective conduct of public affairs. To give an example, advice and discussions between officials and Ministers would be likely to fall within this exemption.

Yn unol â Chod Ymarfer y Cynulliad ar Ganiatáu i’r Cyhoedd Weld Gwybodaeth, mae Gweinidogion ac uwch swyddogion yn penderfynu a fydd datgelu gwybodaeth benodol yn niweidiol i’r broses o gynnal materion cyhoeddus yn effeithiol. Er enghraifft, byddai cyngor a thrafodaethau rhwng swyddogion a Gweinidogion yn debygol o ddod o fewn yr eithriad hwn.

William Graham spoken in English p. 26

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Could you indicate further reasons why information is not released for public access, and how you seek to promote open Government, particularly for wide-ranging issues?

A allech nodi rhesymau pellach pam na chaiff gwybodaeth ei rhyddhau i’r cyhoedd, a sut y byddwch yn ceisio hyrwyddo Llywodraeth agored, yn enwedig ar faterion eang?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 26

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

There are several areas where the code of practice allows information not to be released. However, the general presumption, with the exception of specifically excluded categories, is that information will be released unless it can be demonstrated that substantial harm would occur as a result. We have probably the most rigorous test in terms of releasing information in western Europe. It is not possible to release all information, but our system is as open as possible.

Mae sawl maes lle mae’r cod ymarfer yn caniatáu peidio rhyddhau gwybodaeth. Fodd bynnag, y dybiaeth gyffredinol, ac eithrio categorïau sydd wedi eu heithrio yn benodol, yw y rhyddheir gwybodaeth oni bai y gellir dangos y byddai hynny’n arwain at niwed sylweddol. Gennym ni, fwy na thebyg, y mae’r prawf mwyaf llym yng ngorllewin Ewrop o ran rhyddhau gwybodaeth. Nid yw’n bosibl rhyddhau pob gwybodaeth, ond mae ein system ni mor agored â phosibl.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 26

Mewn perthynas â gwybodaeth sydd wedi’i rhyddhau i’r cyhoedd, ac yn dilyn sefyllfa lle mae un o’ch cyd-Weinidogion wedi rhyddhau ffigurau i Lyfrgell y Cynulliad ar Amcan 1 a oedd yn wallus yn ei farn ef, a sefyllfa arall y bore yma lle yr oedd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gwadu dilysrwydd ystadegau cyhoeddus ar restrau aros, pa broses y bwriadwch ei rhoi ar waith i sicrhau bod gan eich cyd-Weinidogion rywfaint o ffydd yn yr ystadegau a ryddheir i’r cyhoedd?

In relation to information that has been released to the public, and following a situation where one of your ministerial colleagues has released figures on Objective 1 to the Assembly Library that were inaccurate in his view, and another situation this morning where the Minister for Health and Social Services denied the validity of public statistics on waiting lists, what process do you intend to implement to ensure that your fellow Ministers have some confidence in the statistics that are released to the public?

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 26

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod gan Weinidogion ffydd mewn ystadegau, lle bynnag yr ymddangosant. Yn awr ac yn y man—a gwyddom beth ddigwyddodd ynglŷn â’r ystadegau economaidd ar Amcan 1 yr wythnos diwethaf—ceir ambell broblem lle y gwneir camgymeriad. Trafodwyd hynny’n helaeth yn y Siambr, yn enwedig ddoe, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch am gwestiynu’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ar hyn. Nid yw hynny’n fater i mi.

I am sure that Ministers have confidence in statistics, wherever they may appear. Now and again—and we know what happened regarding the economic statistics on Objective 1 last week—a few problems arise where a mistake is made. That was thoroughly debated in the Chamber, particularly yesterday, and I am sure that you will want to question the Minister for Economic Development about this. That is not a matter for me.

Aelodau’r Cynulliad a Gweision Sifil

Assembly Members and Civil Servants

Q5 David Davies spoken in English p. 26

C5 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Is it Government policy to prevent Assembly Members from discussing policies with civil servants? (OAQ21860)

Ai polisi’r Llywodraeth yw atal Aelodau’r Cynulliad rhag trafod polisi gyda gweision sifil? (OAQ21860)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 27

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

It continues to be our policy that civil servants should operate in accordance with the protocols adopted by the Assembly on this matter. Those protocols make civil servants’ obligations in providing information to Members clear.

Mae’n parhau i fod yn bolisi gennym y dylai gweision sifil weithredu yn unol â’r protocolau a fabwysiadwyd gan y Cynulliad ar y mater hwn. Mae’r protocolau hynny yn egluro rhwymedigaethau gweision sifil o ran darparu gwybodaeth i Aelodau.

David Davies spoken in English p. 27

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

You told Owen John Thomas a moment ago that there should be no problem in accessing straightforward information. A couple of weeks ago, I telephoned the Agriculture Department to ask when a constituent would receive payment of an overdue subsidy. After waiting for long periods on hold, I was told that no-one would talk to me because I was an Assembly Member. I was not asking for a change in policy or a special favour; I was asking a straightforward question requiring a factual response. Why is it that this met with a response that had less in common with the National Assembly’s code of practice than the Mafia’s code of omerta?

Dywedasoch wrth Owen John Thomas funud yn ôl na ddylai fod unrhyw broblem o ran cael gafael ar wybodaeth syml. Ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, ffoniais yr Adran Amaethyddiaeth i ofyn pryd y byddai etholwr yn derbyn cymhorthdal a oedd yn ddyledus iddo. Ar ôl aros am gyfnodau hir ar y ffôn, cefais fy hysbysu na fyddai unrhyw un yn siarad â mi oherwydd fy mod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad. Nid oeddwn yn gofyn am newid mewn polisi na ffafr arbennig; yr oeddwn yn holi cwestiwn syml a oedd yn gofyn am ymateb ffeithiol. Pam y cafodd hynny ymateb sydd â llai yn gyffredin â chod ymarfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol na chod omerta’r Maffia?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 27

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I trust that breaching the Assembly’s code of practice does not have the same kind of sanction as breaching the code of omerta of the organisation allegedly known as the Mafia. I make no further comment, because I do not want to get involved in that kind of situation. As an Assembly Member, you are entitled to factual information; if you were not given factual information by a civil servant, you must raise it with the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad so that the matter can be dealt with.

Hyderaf nad yw torri cod ymarfer y Cynulliad yn arwain at yr un gosb â thorri cod omerta’r sefydliad a adwaenir, yn ôl pob tebyg, fel y Maffia. Ni wnaf unrhyw sylw pellach, gan nad wyf am ymwneud â sefyllfa o’r fath. Fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, mae hawl gennych i gael gwybodaeth ffeithiol; os na roddwyd gwybodaeth ffeithiol ichi gan was sifil, rhaid ichi godi’r mater â Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor er mwyn datrys y mater.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 27

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 27

Ar lywodraeth agored, a oes gennych farn ynglŷn â pharodrwydd adrannau Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol i fod yn agored o ran paratoi a chyflwyno gwybodaeth i’r Cynulliad? Yr wyf yn meddwl yn arbennig am y ffaith bod Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig wedi cadw gwybodaeth oddi wrth y Cynulliad a’r Gweinidog ynglŷn â’r posibilrwydd y gallai cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig wasgaru i gnydau cyfagos

On open government, do you have an opinion on the willingness of UK Government departments to be open as regards preparing and submitting information to the Assembly? I am thinking in particular of the fact that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs kept information about the possibility that genetically modified crops could spread to neighbouring crops from the Assembly and from the Minister.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 27

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 27

Trefn. Nid oes gan y Trefnydd gyfrifoldeb am weision sifil y Deyrnas Unedig, ond efallai fod ganddo rywbeth i’w ddweud ar y pwynt.

Order. The Business Minister does not have responsibility for UK civil servants, but he may have something to say on the point.

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 28

Nid oes gennym ddylanwad ar y ffordd y mae San Steffan a Whitehall yn gweithio, ac mae’n bwysig dros ben nad oes dylanwad gan San Steffan ar wasanaeth sifil y Cynulliad—byddai hynny’n anghywir yn yr un ffordd. [Torri ar draws.]

We have no influence on the way in which Westminster and Whitehall work, and it is exceptionally important that Westminster does not influence the Assembly civil service—that would be equally wrong. [Interruption.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 28

Trefn. Fe wyddoch fy mod yn anghymeradwyo Aelodau o unrhyw blaid yn y Cynulliad yn bytheirio o’u heistedd.

Order. You know that I disapprove of Members of any party in the Assembly bellowing from a sedentary position.

Grwpiau Gorchwyl a Gorffen

Task and Finish Groups

Q6 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 28

C6 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Will the Minister make a statement on the progress made towards opening up task and finish groups? (OAQ21833)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar hynt y gwaith o wneud grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen yn fwy agored? (OAQ21833)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 28

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I draw your attention to previous answers and correspondence on this issue. The matter is being considered by the Cabinet and formal guidance and advice will be made available to all Members.

Tynnaf eich sylw at atebion a gohebiaeth flaenorol ar y mater hwn. Mae’r mater yn cael ei ystyried gan y Cabinet a bydd arweiniad a chyngor ffurfiol ar gael i bob Aelod.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 28

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Do you agree that the closest parallel to appointments by Ministers to task and finish groups would be the former system of ministerial appointments to quango boards? An unelected, narrow band of old-boy networks—as you called it in your answer to Eleanor Burnham—led to people like Peter Law and Jane Hutt becoming quango members. Do you agree with the Conservative Party policy that broke that old-boy network and opened it up as a result of the Nolan commission and its principles? Is it not time that your task and finish groups became subject to those same principles?

A gytunwch mai’r gyfatebiaeth agosaf at benodiadau gan Weinidogion i grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen fyddai’r hen system o benodi gweinidogion ar fyrddau’r cwangos? Arweiniodd cylch cyfyng o rwydweithiau cyfeillion anetholedig—fel y’u galwyd gennych yn eich ateb i Eleanor Burnham—at bobl fel Peter Law a Jane Hutt yn dod yn aelodau o gwangos. A gytunwch â pholisi’r Blaid Geidwadol a dorrodd y rhwydwaith hwnnw o gyfeillion a’i wneud yn fwy agored o ganlyniad i gomisiwn Nolan a’i egwyddorion? Onid yw’n amser i’ch grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen fod yn gaeth i’r union egwyddorion hynny?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 28

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

As I said, formal advice and guidance will be given. No Member can be in any doubt that the controlling forces on all of Wales’s quangos at the time of the Tory Government were Conservatives, or people who were sympathetic to the Conservatives. The story was that chairs of quangos would meet every year to decide how to run Wales, and I do not necessarily disbelieve that story. The important difference is that people were appointed to quangos and paid to serve on these permanent bodies, but task and finish groups are set up for a particular reason, namely to advise Ministers. They can be set up in two ways: first by Ministers hand-picking the members, in which case Nolan principles can apply, and where it is possible to achieve balance because the Minister is in control of the situation; and secondly, by organisations being asked to submit members.

Fel y dywedais, rhoddir cyngor ac arweiniad ffurfiol. Ni all unrhyw Aelod fod o dan unrhyw amheuaeth mai Ceidwadwyr, neu bobl a oedd yn gefnogol i’r Ceidwadwyr, oedd y grymoedd a oedd yn rheoli pob un o gwangos Cymru adeg y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd. Yn ôl y sôn byddai cadeiryddion y cwangos yn cyfarfod bob blwyddyn i benderfynu sut i lywodraethu Cymru, ac nid wyf o reidrwydd yn credu nad yw’r stori honno’n wir. Y gwahaniaeth bwysig yw bod pobl yn cael eu penodi i gwangos a’u talu i wasanaethu ar y cyrff parhaol hyn, ond sefydlir grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen am reswm penodol, sef i gynghori Gweinidogion. Gellir eu sefydlu mewn dwy ffordd: yn gyntaf drwy Weinidogion yn dethol yr aelodau, ac os digwydd hynny, gellir cymhwyso egwyddorion Nolan, a lle y bo’n bosibl cyflawni cydbwysedd oherwydd bod y Gweinidog yn rheoli’r sefyllfa; ac yn ail, drwy ofyn i sefydliadau gyflwyno aelodau.

These members are reminded of what we expect of them, but, when you ask for names, you do not have the direct influence over membership that you might have otherwise. Task and finish groups are important in terms of outside bodies being able to take part in consultation and in Government—I believe that that is important. Yesterday, we had a debate on ‘Farming for the Future’; that document was produced by a group representing farmers, consumers and many other interests. The document was discussed twice by the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. Industry and consumer representatives, and those who promote Welsh food, felt that they had played a part in drawing up that document, and had been part of the democratic process. In that way, task and finish groups are useful.

Caiff yr aelodau hyn eu hatgoffa o’r hyn a ddisgwylir ganddynt, ond, pan ofynnwch am enwau, nid oes gennych y dylanwad uniongyrchol dros aelodaeth a allai fod gennych fel arall. Mae grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen yn bwysig yn nhermau galluogi cyrff allanol i gymryd rhan mewn prosesau ymgynghori ac mewn Llywodraeth—credaf fod hynny’n bwysig. Ddoe, cawsom ddadl ar ‘Ffermio i’r Dyfodol’; cynhyrchwyd y ddogfen honno gan grŵp sy’n cynrychioli ffermwyr, defnyddwyr a nifer o fuddiannau eraill. Trafodwyd y ddogfen ddwywaith gan y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Yr oedd cynrychiolwyr diwydiant a defnyddwyr, a’r rheini sy’n hyrwyddo bwyd Cymreig o’r farn eu bod wedi chwarae eu rhan yn y broses o lunio’r ddogfen honno, ac iddynt fod yn rhan o’r broses ddemocrataidd. Yn hynny o beth, mae grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen yn ddefnyddiol.

Dogfennau ‘Masnachol Gyfrinachol’

‘Commercially Confidential’ Documents

Q7 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 29

C7 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

Would the Minister list any documents that have ceased to be ‘commercially confidential’ since the Assembly began in 1999? (OAQ21847)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog restru unrhyw ddogfennau sydd wedi peidio â bod yn ‘fasnachol gyfrinachol’ ers i’r Cynulliad ddechrau yn 1999? (OAQ21847)

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 29

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

The records management system operated by the Assembly does not capture the information that you request. In practice, information held as commercially confidential will be re-examined either as part of the commitment to publish documents under the Assembly’s publication scheme, or in response to a specific request for information.

Nid yw’r system rheoli cofnodion a weithredir gan y Cynulliad yn nodi’r wybodaeth y gofynnwch amdani. Yn ymarferol, caiff gwybodaeth fasnachol gyfrinachol a gedwir ei hail-archwilio naill ai fel rhan o’r ymrwymiad i gyhoeddi dogfennau o dan gynllun cyhoeddi’r Cynulliad, neu mewn ymateb i gais penodol am wybodaeth.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 30

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

If the system does not capture the information, are you doing a thorough job, and can the Government do more to ensure that this information is captured?

Os nad yw’r system yn nodi’r wybodaeth, a ydych yn gwneud eich gwaith yn drwyadl, ac a all y Llywodraeth wneud mwy er mwyn sicrhau y cedwir y wybodaeth hon?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 30

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

The Assembly creates and receives a substantial amount of documentation every year. To capture information routinely in this way would have a significant effect on officials’ daily functions. It would create an enormous amount of work and would probably incur further staffing costs. A balance must be struck between the need to make information public, and the amount of staff time it would take to gather all that information. We try to gather as much information as possible, but to manage everything in that way would be a major undertaking.

Mae’r Cynulliad yn creu ac yn derbyn swm sylweddol o ddogfennau bob blwyddyn. Byddai cadw gwybodaeth yn y ffordd hon fel mater o drefn yn cael cryn effaith ar swyddogaethau dyddiol y swyddogion. Byddai’n creu swm enfawr o waith a byddai, fwy na thebyg, yn creu costau staffio pellach. Rhaid sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng yr angen i ryddhau gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd, a’r amser y byddai ei angen ar staff i gasglu’r holl wybodaeth honno. Ceisiwn gasglu cymaint o wybodaeth â phosibl, ond byddai rheoli popeth yn y ffordd honno yn gamp fawr.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 30

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Do you agree that the principles of commercial confidentiality should be extended to Government departments? I refer, in particular, to Government documents in light of yesterday’s leak of the Government’s White Paper on higher education somewhere in Wales or Westminster, which led to a simultaneous series of announcements and denials?

A gytunwch y dylid ymestyn egwyddorion cyfrinachedd masnachol i adrannau’r Llywodraeth? Cyfeiriaf, yn benodol, at ddogfennau’r Llywodraeth yn sgîl datgelu Papur Gwyn y Llywodraeth ar addysg uwch rhywle yng Nghymru neu San Steffan ddoe, a arweiniodd at gyfres o gyhoeddiadau a gwadiadau?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 30

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I assure you that there was no leak from the Assembly, from the Cabinet or from any Cabinet Minister. We try to operate on the basis of propriety and on information being made available at the appropriate time. No system is perfect: as politicians, we all know that. I know about the information that appears to be in the public domain, but I cannot comment on that until the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning makes her statement.

Gallaf eich sicrhau na ddatgelwyd unrhyw wybodaeth gan y Cynulliad, gan y Cabinet nac unrhyw Weinidog yn y Cabinet. Ceisiwn weithredu ar sail priodoldeb a sicrhau bod gwybodaeth ar gael ar yr amser priodol. Nid oes unrhyw system yn berffaith: fel gwleidyddion, yr ydym oll yn ymwybodol o hynny. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r wybodaeth yr ymddengys ei bod yn wybodaeth gyhoeddus, ond ni allaf wneud sylwadau ar hynny hyd nes y bydd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gwneud ei datganiad.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Following Alun Cairns’s comment, I am glad to see that the Conservative Party no longer believes in the old-boy network. As someone who represents a party whose members are the new kids on the block, can you assure us in your role as Minister for open government that all the relevant information that you have gathered will be made available to Members?

Yn dilyn sylwadau Alun Cairns, yr wyf yn falch nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol bellach yn credu yn y rhwydwaith o gyfeillion. Fel rhywun sy’n cynrychioli plaid y mae ei haelodau yn newydd-ddyfodiaid, a allwch ein sicrhau ni yn rhinwedd eich swydd fel Gweinidog dros lywodraeth agored y bydd yr holl wybodaeth berthnasol a gasglwyd gennych ar gael i Aelodau?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 31

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

The code of practice clearly notes which information is to be released. It also notes the presumption that, with the exception of specific categories, information will be released unless it can be shown that that will cause substantial harm.

Mae’r cod ymarfer yn nodi’n glir pa wybodaeth sydd ar gael i’w rhyddhau. Noda hefyd y dybiaeth y caiff gwybodaeth, ac eithrio categorïau penodol, ei rhyddhau oni bai y gellir dangos y byddai’n arwain at niwed sylweddol.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 31

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Point of order. This point of order relates to the Assembly Cabinet. Throughout questions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language, and most of the questions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad, there were only two Liberal Cabinet Ministers in the Chamber. We wondered whether the First Minister had gone off again to cloud-cuckoo-land, whether it was an attack of pique, or whether it was to demonstrate that, as bad as things are, if the Liberal Democrats were running the country, it would be even worse. We need to know.

Pwynt o drefn. Mae’r pwynt o drefn hwn yn ymwneud â Chabinet y Cynulliad. Drwy gydol y cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, ac yn ystod y rhan fwyaf o’r cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor, dim ond dau Weinidog Rhyddfrydol o’r Cabinet oedd yn y Siambr. Yr oeddem yn ceisio dyfalu ai wedi dychwelyd i fyd ffantasi yr oedd y Prif Weinidog, ai wedi digio, neu a oedd yn dangos er mor wael yw pethau, y byddent yn waeth fyth pe bai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn llywodraethu. Mae angen inni wybod.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

As the leader of the Welsh Conservatives knows, that is not a matter for me.

Fel y gŵyr arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, nid mater i mi yw hynny.

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 31

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Further to that point of order, it is important to correct the record and to state that there are, in fact, only two Liberal Cabinet Ministers.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, mae’n bwysig cywiro’r cofnod a nodi mai dim ond dau Weinidog Rhyddfrydol o’r Cabinet sydd mewn gwirionedd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 31

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Point of order. I should have declared an interest in the question that I asked Jenny Randerson on the Welsh Rugby Union academy.

Pwynt o drefn. Dylwn fod wedi datgan buddiant yn y cwestiwn a ofynnais i Jenny Randerson ar academi Undeb Rygbi Cymru.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 31

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Point of order. I inadvertently pressed the wrong button yesterday and accidentally voted against the motion on ‘Farming for the Future’. I wanted to put that on the record.

Pwynt o drefn. Gwasgais y botwm anghywir ar gam ddoe gan bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig ar ‘Ffermio i’r Dyfodol’ yn anfwriadol. Hoffwn gofnodi hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I am grateful to you. When voting in future, if Members realise that they have pressed the wrong button, please press the right button while the vote is still open and that will be registered. Unfortunately, I believe that the vote was closed on this occasion.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi. Yn y dyfodol, os bydd Aelodau yn sylweddoli eu bod wedi gwasgu’r botwm anghywir wrth bleidleisio, a wnewch chi wasgu’r botwm cywir tra bod y bleidlais yn parhau i fod ar agor a chaiff hynny ei gofrestru. Yn anffodus, yr wyf ar ddeall fod y bleidlais wedi cau ar yr achlysur hwn.

Datganiad ar Wasanaethau Trên

Statement on Rail Services

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 32

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

The Strategic Rail Authority has announced some decisions covering the whole of the UK. My statement will address how these decisions will affect Wales. It is based on public information, but also on the discussions that the First Minister and I had with Richard Bowker at a meeting that we initiated last week. I will also outline the Welsh Assembly Government’s response.

Mae’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol wedi cyhoeddi rhai penderfyniadau sy’n ymwneud â’r DU gyfan. Bydd fy natganiad yn trafod sut y bydd y penderfyniadau hyn yn effeithio ar Gymru. Mae’n seiliedig ar wybodaeth gyhoeddus, ond hefyd ar y trafodaethau a gafodd y Prif Weinidog a minnau gyda Richard Bowker mewn cyfarfod y gofynasom amdano yr wythnos diwethaf. Byddaf hefyd yn amlinellu ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.

There are two aspects to the decisions communicated by the SRA. For each I will outline their impact on Wales. First, a number of reductions in services were announced on 16 January to improve reliability by easing timetable congestion across Great Britain. The impact on south Wales is the reduction from May of the newly-introduced Virgin cross-country services from south Wales to Birmingham, the north-east and Scotland from seven to two, including the withdrawal of one service a day from Swansea. In addition, the SRA has confirmed today that, for north Wales, the introduction by Virgin of seven services each way between London and north Wales will be reduced. The current assumption by the SRA is that, from autumn 2004, there will be three or four new 125 mph trains each way, operating on a faster schedule than the current service. The reductions to both Virgin services are extremely disappointing. Although there had been problems of reliability in south Wales, there have been real benefits from additional modern regular cross-country services to the Midlands and northwards. It is particularly regrettable that Swansea has lost its one direct service. Colleagues representing north Wales, both here and at Westminster, have campaigned hard to bring about improvements. I am disappointed that their efforts have been undermined by today’s announcement by the SRA.

Mae dwy agwedd i’r penderfyniadau a gyhoeddwyd gan yr SRA. Amlinellaf effaith y naill a’r llall ar Gymru. Yn gyntaf, cyhoeddwyd gostyngiad i nifer o wasanaethau ar 16 Ionawr i wella dibynadwyedd drwy ysgafnu’r pwysau ar amserlen rhy lawn ar draws Prydain Fawr. Effeithir ar dde Cymru gan ostyngiad o fis Mai yn y gwasanaethau ar draws gwlad sydd newydd eu cyflwyno gan gwmni Virgin o’r De i Birmingham, gogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr a’r Alban o saith i ddau, gan gynnwys tynnu un gwasanaeth y dydd o Abertawe yn ôl. Yn ogystal, yn y Gogledd mae’r SRA wedi cadarnhau heddiw y bwriedir cwtogi ar y saith gwasanaeth bob ffordd rhwng Llundain a’r Gogledd a gyflwynwyd gan Virgin. Tybia’r SRA ar hyn o bryd y bydd tri neu bedwar trên 125 mya newydd bob ffordd, yn gweithredu ar amserlen gyflymach na’r gwasanaeth cyfredol, o hydref 2004. Mae’r gostyngiadau yn y ddau wasanaeth a gynigir gan Virgin yn siomedig iawn. Er y bu problemau o ran dibynadwyedd yn y De, gwelwyd manteision gwirioneddol yn sgil y gwasanaethau rheolaidd modern ychwanegol ar draws gwlad i Ganolbarth Lloegr a thua gogledd Lloegr a’r Alban. Mae’n anffodus iawn bod Abertawe wedi colli ei un gwasanaeth uniongyrchol. Ymgyrchodd cyd-Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli’r Gogledd, yma ac yn San Steffan, yn galed am welliannau i’r gwasanaeth. Yr wyf yn siomedig i’w hymdrechion gael eu tanseilio gan gyhoeddiad yr SRA heddiw.

On the second aspect of the SRA’s decisions, it is adjusting its programme in the coming year to meet budget controls. This is being delivered primarily by curtailing discretionary grants, such as the rail passenger partnership scheme, the rail performance fund, funds for freight facilities in England and track access grants. The SRA is now only proceeding with contractualised schemes. The rail passenger partnership is the most significant of these grants for Wales. It has been a key instrument for enhancing rail services in Wales. We have been particularly successful in obtaining both capital and revenue funding from the SRA, which has been identified as a means of meeting the aspirations set out in our transport framework. There are two schemes in particular where RPP funding is currently crucial. We are well advanced on the infrastructure for the re-opening of the Vale of Glamorgan line and consider that the SRA is committed to supporting the introduction of passenger services on this line. In addition, completion of works at Mountain Ash allows an increased frequency of services to be introduced to Aberdare from October. Officials are in discussion with the SRA on these schemes, which we regard as high priorities, and expect the situation to be resolved soon. RPP funding was also being sought for the Ebbw valley railway scheme. Although this will not be needed until 2005, it will be difficult for the SRA to commit to approving this bid. In view of this uncertainty, and the need for everyone involved in the regeneration of Ebbw Vale to have confidence in delivering this rail service as quickly as possible, I have agreed with the Finance Minister that the Welsh Assembly Government will provide the additional funding sought under this RPP bid. Our approach to this situation, which was unexpected, clearly shows that the Welsh Assembly Government is absolutely committed to making these projects happen. They are vital to important objectives, especially the development of our public transport policy, reducing our dependency on the car, regenerating communities and opening up opportunities for people to seek jobs while still living in their present communities.

O ran yr ail agwedd ar benderfyniadau’r SRA, mae’n addasu ei raglenni yn y flwyddyn nesaf i fodloni rheolaethau cyllidebol. Gwneir hyn yn bennaf drwy gwtogi ar grantiau dewisol, megis y cynllun partneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd, y gronfa perfformiad rheilffyrdd, cronfeydd ar gyfer cyfleusterau cludo nwyddau yn Lloegr a grantiau mynediad i draciau. Dim ond y cynlluniau sydd wedi’u gosod ar gontract eisoes a gaiff eu datblygu gan yr SRA erbyn hyn. Y grant i’r bartneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd yw’r grant mwyaf arwyddocaol i Gymru. Bu’n allweddol i wella gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Buom yn arbennig o lwyddiannus wrth gael arian cyfalaf ac arian refeniw gan yr SRA, a nodwyd fel modd i wireddu’r dyheadau a amlinellir yn ein fframwaith trafnidiaeth. Ceir dau gynllun yn arbennig lle mae arian y bartneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd yn hollbwysig ar hyn o bryd. Gwnaethpwyd cryn dipyn o waith ar y seilwaith ar gyfer ailagor llinell Bro Morgannwg a chredwn fod yr SRA yn ymrwymedig i gefnogi’r broses o gyflwyno gwasanaethau i deithwyr ar y llinell hon. Yn ogystal, ar ôl cwblhau gwaith yn Aberpennar, bydd modd rhedeg gwasanaethau yn amlach i Aberdâr o fis Hydref. Mae swyddogion wrthi’n cynnal trafodaethau gyda’r SRA ynglŷn â’r cynlluniau hyn, sydd â blaenoriaeth uchel yn ein barn ni, a disgwylir i’r sefyllfa gael ei datrys yn fuan. Gofynnwyd am arian o dan y bartneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd hefyd ar gyfer cynllun rheilffordd glyn Ebwy. Er na fydd angen yr arian hwnnw tan 2005, bydd yn anodd i’r SRA ymrwymo i gymeradwyo’r cais hwn. O ystyried yr ansicrwydd hwn, a’r angen i bawb sy’n gysylltiedig ag adfywio Glynebwy fod yn hyderus y cyflwynir y gwasanaeth rheilffordd hwn mor fuan â phosibl, cytunais â’r Gweinidog Cyllid y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn rhoi’r arian ychwanegol y gofynnwyd amdano o dan y cais hwn i’r bartneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd. Mae ein hymagwedd tuag at y sefyllfa hon, a gododd yn annisgwyl, yn dangos yn glir bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gwbl ymrwymedig i sicrhau bod y prosiectau hyn yn mynd rhagddynt. Maent yn allweddol i amcanion pwysig, yn arbennig datblygu ein polisi trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, lleihau ein dibyniaeth ar geir, adfywio cymunedau a rhoi cyfleoedd i bobl chwilio am swyddi tra’n parhau i fyw yn eu cymunedau presennol.

We expect an announcement from the SRA on the Wales and borders franchise in May. As you may recall, the SRA asked the bidders for all the outstanding franchises to produce bids requiring 10 and 20 per cent less subsidy alongside proposals for enhancement. The First Minister and I were assured that this exercise is to improve the value for money from the operation of the railways. We recognise that costs are escalating in the rail industry, and that the SRA is under pressure to contain them. However, the Wales and borders franchise provides us with the opportunity to establish a long-term future for railways in Wales.

Disgwyliwn gyhoeddiad gan yr SRA ar fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau ym mis Mai. Fe gofiwch efallai i’r SRA ofyn i bob un a oedd yn gwneud cais am y masnachfreintiau a oedd yn weddill baratoi ceisiadau a oedd yn gofyn am 10 ac 20 y cant yn llai o gymhorthdal ochr yn ochr â chynigion ar gyfer gwella gwasanaethau. Rhoddwyd sicrwydd i mi a’r Prif Weinidog mai diben yr ymarfer hwn yw rhoi gwell gwerth am arian o weithredu’r rheilffyrdd. Cydnabyddwn fod costau yn cynyddu yn y diwydiant rheilffordd, a bod yr SRA o dan bwysau i’w rheoli. Fodd bynnag, mae masnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau yn rhoi cyfle inni sefydlu dyfodol hirdymor i’r rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru.

As everyone knows, I am strongly in favour of increasing the Assembly’s powers over public transport and rail, and we have proposed a transport Bill to cover this. The Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, and, most recently, the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, has supported the Welsh Assembly Government’s bid. These announcements reaffirm our commitment to obtain powers of direction over the SRA and enable us to protect Welsh rail interests.

Fel y gŵyr pawb, yr wyf yn gryf o blaid cynyddu pwerau’r Cynulliad dros drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus a’r rheilffyrdd, ac yr ydym wedi cynnig Mesur trafnidiaeth i gwmpasu hyn. Mae Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, ac yn fwyaf diweddar, y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, wedi cefnogi cais Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Cadarnha’r cyhoeddiadau hyn ein hymrwymiad i gael pwerau i gyfarwyddo’r SRA gan alluogi inni ddiogelu buddiannau rheilffyrdd Cymru.

The Welsh Assembly Government is not prepared to let our rail system go backward in Wales. I remain committed to an efficient and reliable rail system in Wales, and there is considerable public backing for this. To this end, the Welsh Assembly Government has already demonstrated its determination with a significant level of investment underway and planned: for example, the funding of the north-south rail service, and the support for the Ebbw Vale service. We will continue to do all that we can with our partners to secure our realistic ambitions for the Welsh rail network.

Nid yw Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn barod i adael i’n system rheilffyrdd ddirywio yng Nghymru. Parhaf i fod yn ymrwymedig i system rheilffyrdd effeithlon a dibynadwy yng Nghymru, ac mae cryn gefnogaeth i hyn ymhlith y cyhoedd. I’r perwyl hwn, bu i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eisoes ddangos ei phenderfyniad gyda chryn fuddsoddiad yn mynd yn ei flaen neu yn yr arfaeth: er enghraifft, ariannu’r gwasanaeth rhwng y Gogledd a’r De, a chymorth i wasanaeth Glynebwy. Byddwn yn parhau i wneud popeth yn ein gallu gyda’n partneriaid i wireddu ein huchelgeisiau realistig ar gyfer rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd Cymru.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 35

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I thank the Minister for her statement, and sympathise with her on the SRA’s decisions. Those announcements have a disproportional effect on Wales. We are all concerned about the SRA’s decision to cut rail services. The Virgin voyager business class trains to Birmingham, which are going through to York and Edinburgh—that has been ignored—are being cut from seven to two. The service from Swansea is also being cut. Compare that to the cuts on the Bristol to Birmingham service, where one service has been cut out of 34. Could you confirm, Minister, that the Cardiff to London Waterloo service—with its connections to Eurostar—is also being withdrawn? That is a cheaper train service than the one from London Paddington, which is good for people on lower incomes. I also draw your attention to the links from north Wales to Crewe and to the Manchester airport service, which I believe is being withdrawn, and the announcement today of the cutting of Virgin services from north Wales to London from seven to only three or four.

Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei datganiad a chydymdeimlaf â hi ynglŷn â phenderfyniadau’r SRA. Caiff y cyhoeddiadau hynny effaith anghymesur ar Gymru. Yr ydym oll yn pryderu ynglŷn â phenderfyniad yr SRA i gwtogi ar wasanaethau rheilffyrdd. Cwtogir ar nifer trenau voyager dosbarth busnes Virgin i Birmingham, sy’n mynd ymlaen i Gaerefrog a Chaeredin—anwybyddwyd hynny—o saith i ddau. Cwtogir ar y gwasanaeth o Abertawe hefyd. Cymharwch hynny â’r cwtogiadau ar y gwasanaeth rhwng Bryste a Birmingham, lle torrwyd un gwasanaeth allan o 34. A allwch gadarnhau, Weinidog, bod y gwasanaeth rhwng Caerdydd a Waterloo Llundain—gyda’i gysylltiadau â’r Eurostar—hefyd yn cael ei dynnu’n ôl? Mae hwnnw yn wasanaeth trên rhatach na’r gwasanaeth o Paddington Llundain, sy’n dda i bobl ar incwm is. Tynnaf eich sylw hefyd at y cysylltiadau o’r Gogledd i Crewe ac at y gwasanaeth i faes awyr Manceinion, y credaf ei fod yn cael ei dynnu’n ôl, a’r cyhoeddiad heddiw bod nifer y gwasanaethau Virgin o’r Gogledd i Lundain yn gostwng o saith i dri neu bedwar yn unig.

The SRA is showing a total lack of concern for Wales. Plaid Cymru has lobbied for Assembly powers and direction of the SRA in Wales, and consultation on services from Wales. We proposed a passenger transport authority with representatives from the grass-roots up, to provide strategic direction. We suggested that there be two Welsh members on the SRA in the short term. All these proposals have been rejected with scorn by the Assembly Government, by the First Minister, and by you, Minister. Do you now accept that we were right, and that we are still right? The House of Commons Select Committee on Welsh Affairs largely agrees with us. What did the member who is supposed to represent Welsh interests on the SRA do when these discussions were going on? What views did she put forward? Were you, or anyone in the Assembly Government, consulted before the announcement was made, and how do you propose to retrieve the situation?

Dengys yr SRA nad yw’n poeni dim am Gymru. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi lobïo dros bwerau i’r Cynulliad a’r gallu i gyfarwyddo’r SRA yng Nghymru, ac ymgynghoriad ar wasanaethau o Gymru. Cynigiwyd awdurdod trafnidiaeth teithwyr gennym gyda chynrychiolwyr o deithwyr cyffredin i fyny, er mwyn rhoi cyfeiriad strategol. Awgrymwyd y dylai fod dau aelod o Gymru ar yr SRA yn y tymor byr. Gwrthodwyd yr holl gynigion hyn yn ddirmygus gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, gan y Prif Weinidog, a gennych chithau, Weinidog. A dderbyniwch yn awr mai ni oedd yn iawn ac ein bod yn iawn o hyd? Mae Pwyllgor Dethol Ty’r Cyffredin ar Faterion Cymreig yn cytuno â ni ar y cyfan. Beth a wnaeth yr aelod a ddylai gynrychioli buddiannau Cymru ar yr SRA pan oedd y trafodaethau hyn yn mynd rhagddynt? Pa farn a fynegodd? A ymgynghorwyd â chi neu unrhyw un arall yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad cyn i’r cyhoeddiad gael ei wneud, a sut y bwriadwch unioni’r sefyllfa?

I turn to the rail passenger partnership, the financing of the Vale of Glamorgan line, and the Mountain Ash improvements to increase the frequency of services to Aberdare. The Vale of Glamorgan line is important for Cardiff international airport, as well as for commuters coming into Cardiff. The current Valleys line is crucial for such a deprived area. I hope that we will be able to get some resolution, but how long is it likely to be before we have more information on that? I am sure that other Members will wish to talk about the Ebbw Vale line. I am pleased that the Assembly Government will probably contribute funding to it, however that must affect the rest of the transport budget. I do not like the principle of our having to bail out the SRA. That is not why we are here. It gets its money; we only get 3 per cent of its money. It is disgraceful that we are being asked to bail it out.

Trof at y bartneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd, ariannu llinell Bro Morgannwg, a gwelliannau yn Aberpennar er mwyn cael gwasanaethau amlach i Aberdâr. Mae llinell Bro Morgannwg yn bwysig ar gyfer maes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd, ac i’r rhai sy’n cymudo i Gaerdydd hefyd. Mae llinell bresennol y Cymoedd yn hollbwysig i ardal mor ddifreintedig. Gobeithiaf y bydd modd datrys hynny, ond faint o amser fydd cyn inni gael mwy o wybodaeth am hynny? Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Aelodau eraill am siarad am linell Glynebwy. Mae’n dda gennyf y bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad fwy na thebyg yn cyfrannu’n ariannol at hynny, fodd bynnag rhaid bod hynny’n effeithio ar weddill y gyllideb ar gyfer trafnidiaeth. Nid wyf yn hoff o’r egwyddor bod yn rhaid i ni arbed croen yr SRA. Nid dyna ein diben. Caiff ei gyllid ei hun; dim ond 3 y cant o’i arian a ddaw i ni. Mae’n warth bod gofyn inni dalu drosto.

You mentioned the Wales and borders franchise. Do you believe it to be appropriate that the firm responsible for service cuts when international rugby matches are held is on the shortlist of bidders for the new franchise?

Bu ichi sôn am fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau. A gredwch ei bod yn briodol bod y cwmni sy’n gyfrifol am gwtogi ar wasanaethau pan gaiff gemau rygbi rhyngwladol eu cynnal ar y rhestr fer o ymgeiswyr am y fasnachfraint newydd?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 36

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I will respond to the points in the order that you raised them; if I miss something, please tell me. You must realise that this is a UK situation, although you may not want to accept that. I suspect that colleagues across the border are as disappointed and angry as we are.

Ymatebaf i’r pwyntiau yn y drefn y’u codwyd gennych; os anghofiaf am rywbeth, dywedwch wrthyf. Rhaid ichi sylweddoli mai rhywbeth sy’n effeithio ar y DU gyfan ydyw, er nad ydych am dderbyn hynny o bosibl. Credaf fod ein cydweithwyr dros y ffin yr un mor siomedig a dig â ni.

On the service cuts announced last week, we were told that there had been major problems in terms of regularity and certainty since the introduction of the Virgin service. As someone who regularly travels by train, I had experienced those problems. The SRA’s argument is that, by concentrating on the ‘x’ of the delivery of those cross-country trains, it can improve reliability. That is its judgment as the authority that has the powers to deal with such matters. Rhodri and I were extremely unhappy about the cuts, as we believe that that link is important. The Cardiff to London Waterloo service has not been cut; it was not part of the announcement and it will remain on the timetable after May. I will check about the Manchester airport service that you mentioned, as I have not been informed of that.

O ran y cwtogiadau i wasanaethau a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedwyd wrthym fod problemau mawr o ran prydlondeb a sicrwydd gwasanaethau ers cyflwyno gwasanaeth Virgin. Fel rhywun sy’n teithio’n rheolaidd ar y trên, profais y problemau hynny fy hun. Dadl yr SRA yw y gall wneud y gwasanaeth yn fwy dibynadwy drwy ganolbwyntio ar nifer y trenau hynny sy’n rhedeg ar draws gwlad. Dyna ei farn fel yr awdurdod sydd â’r pwerau i ymdrin â materion o’r fath. Yr oedd Rhodri a minnau yn anfodlon iawn ar y cwtogiadau, gan y credwn fod y gwasanaeth hwnnw yn bwysig. Ni ddiddymwyd y gwasanaeth o Gaerdydd i Waterloo Llundain; nid oedd yn rhan o’r cyhoeddiad a bydd yn parhau ar yr amserlen ar ôl mis Mai. Gwnaf ymholiadau ynglŷn â’r gwasanaeth i faes awyr Manceinion a grybwyllwyd gennych, gan na chefais fy hysbysu am hynny.

I am angry about these cuts, as are other Members. However, the SRA has never shrunk from appearing before the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee. I believe that Chris Austin is due to appear before the Committee in two weeks’ time, so you can question him about the running of the SRA, who contributed to the decision-making and what role the board played then. I cannot answer those questions.

Yr wyf yn ddig ynglŷn â’r cwtogiadau hyn, fel y mae Aelodau eraill. Fodd bynnag, ni wrthododd yr SRA ymddangos gerbron Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth eriod. Credaf y bydd Chris Austin yn ymddangos gerbron y Pwyllgor ymhen pythefnos, felly gallwch ei holi ynglŷn â gweinyddu’r SRA, pwy a gyfrannodd at y penderfyniadau a wnaed, a pha rôl a chwaraeodd y bwrdd wedyn. Ni allaf ateb y cwestiynau hynny.

You asked whether we have been consulted. When I first heard of this, I immediately sought a meeting with Richard Bowker. That was the meeting to which I referred, at which the First Minister and I were present. I am not happy with the consultation arrangements. I consider us to be one of the SRA’s partners, and that is not how a partnership should operate.

Gofynasoch pa un a ymgynghorwyd â ni. Pan glywais am hyn gyntaf, gofynnais am gyfarfod â Richard Bowker ar unwaith. Dyna’r cyfarfod y cyfeiriais ato, lle yr oedd y Prif Weinidog a minnau’n bresennol. Nid wyf yn fodlon ar y trefniadau ar gyfer ymgynghori. Yn fy marn i, yr ydym yn un o bartneriaid yr SRA, ac nid dyna sut y dylai partneriaeth weithredu.

I do not know whether or not you support passenger transport authorities. You used to be in favour of them, but the last that I heard, you were not. Now you say that you are in favour of them again. It does not matter to me what you want, but your policy must be consistent. We have said that we will seek powers within a transport Bill to set up one or more passenger transport authorities. Now is not the time to set up a PTA for the whole of Wales, and colleagues in north Wales support that view. However, others argue that the consortia are not delivering on the ground. We will seek the power noted in the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee’s report on public transport, in addition to the power of direction over the SRA.

Ni wn pa un a gefnogwch awdurdodau trafnidiaeth teithwyr ai peidio. Yr oeddech yn arfer bod o’u plaid, ond wedi hynny, clywais nad oeddech. Erbyn hyn dywedwch eich bod o’u plaid eto. Nid yw o bwys i mi beth a ddymunwch, ond rhaid i’ch polisi fod yn gyson. Dywedasom y byddwn yn gofyn am bwerau o fewn Mesur trafnidiaeth i sefydlu un neu fwy o awdurdodau trafnidiaeth teithwyr. Nid dyma’r amser i sefydlu awdurdod o’r fath i Gymru gyfan, ac mae cydweithwyr yn y Gogledd yn cefnogi’r farn honno. Fodd bynnag, dadleua eraill nad yw’r consortia yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ar lawr gwlad. Byddwn yn gofyn am y pŵer a nodwyd yn adroddiad Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, yn ychwanegol at y pŵer cyfarwyddo dros yr SRA.

We have put much infrastructure investment into our two priority schemes, the Vale of Glamorgan line and the Cynon valley line. They are a part of our plan, and part of the South Wales Integrated Fast Transit consortium package. I am attached to both schemes, as are other Members. We feel that it is the SRA’s moral duty to support these schemes, and discussions on that are ongoing. I feel guardedly optimistic about the outcome of those discussions, although I cannot say more than that. We want the two schemes to be introduced, as some infrastructure investment has been made. The Vale of Glamorgan line is important in terms of access to the airport and for commuters, and the Cynon valley/Aberdare scheme is important in terms of ensuring frequency of service, as Christine Chapman will know. I will keep Members informed of developments. I made a statement today to share information with Members, given the strong interest in the railways.

Bu inni fuddsoddi llawer yn seilwaith ein dau gynllun blaenoriaethol, sef llinell Bro Morgannwg a llinell cwm Cynon. Maent yn rhan o’n cynllun ac yn rhan o becyn consortiwm Teithio Cyflym Integredig De Cymru. Yr wyf yn ymrwymedig i’r ddau gynllun, fel y mae Aelodau eraill. Teimlwn bod dyletswydd foesol ar yr SRA i gefnogi’r cynlluniau hyn, ac mae trafodaethau’n mynd rhagddynt. Yr wyf yn weddol obeithiol ynglŷn â chanlyniad y trafodaethau hynny, er na allaf ddweud mwy na hynny. Yr ydym am i’r ddau gynllun gael eu cyflwyno, gan fod rhywfaint o fuddsoddiad seilwaith wedi’i wneud. Mae llinell Bro Morgannwg yn bwysig o ran cyrraedd y maes awyr ac i gymudwyr, ac mae cynllun cwm Cynon/Aberdâr yn bwysig o ran sicrhau amlder y gwasanaeth, fel y gŵyr Christine Chapman. Byddaf yn rhoi gwybod i’r Aelodau am y datblygiadau diweddaraf. Gwneuthum ddatganiad heddiw i rannu gwybodaeth gyda’r Aelodau, o gofio’r diddordeb mawr yn y rheilffyrdd.

We are not bailing out the SRA; we are showing a commitment to achieve important transport and socio-economic priorities in Wales. I am committed to rail transport. I could bore for Wales on the subject, as I am one of those strange people who enjoys travelling on trains for its own sake. However, most people travel on trains for a purpose. It is increasingly frustrating for me that people do not understand the importance of public transport as a means of enabling people to get to where they want to go. A point that many commentators miss for some reason is that an efficient public transport system is good for the economy, because it gets people to work and to training, and it is good for the image of the country. We need to think of our public transport system in that way.

Nid ydym yn arbed croen yr SRA; yr ydym yn dangos ymrwymiad i gyflawni blaenoriaethau trafnidiaeth ac economaidd-gymdeithasol pwysig yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn ymrwymedig i drafnidiaeth rheilffyrdd. Gallaf rygnu ar y pwnc hwn o fore gwyn tan nos gan fy mod yn un o’r bobl ryfedd hynny sy’n mwynhau teithio ar drenau ynddo’i hun. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn teithio ar y trên at ryw ddiben. Mae’n fater o rwystredigaeth gynyddol i mi nad yw pobl yn deall pwysigrwydd trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus fel modd i gludo pobl i ba le y dymunant fynd. Un pwynt a gollir gan lawer o sylwebwyr am ryw reswm neu’i gilydd yw bod system trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus effeithlon o fudd i’r economi, am ei bod yn cludo pobl i’r gwaith ac i hyfforddiant, ac mae’n fuddiol o ran delwedd y wlad. Mae angen inni feddwl am ein system trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn y ffordd honno.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 38

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Your statement underlines the wisdom that you have previously shown in asking for representation on the Strategic Rail Authority and for the strategic direction powers supported by the Committee. I was delighted when I heard that the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs had given you unanimous support. That is still some time away. That is why your ‘can do’ mentality is so important to us in Wales, because you are trying hard, with limited powers, to make a change for the good of the people. If people do not recognise that, they are not alive, because that is what Sue Essex does with every waking moment that she spends dealing with railway matters. It is not easy when she does not have direct powers. I am delighted that we are fighting to ensure that the SRA will recognise the need for these Welsh schemes to be adequately supported. Realistically, however, we cannot hold those schemes back because they are too important.

Mae eich datganiad yn tanlinellu’r doethineb a amlygwyd gennych o’r blaen wrth ofyn am gynrychiolaeth ar yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ac am bwerau i roi cyfeiriad strategol, a gefnogwyd gan y Pwyllgor. Yr oeddwn yn falch pan glywais fod y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig wedi rhoi cefnogaeth unfrydol ichi. Mae hynny beth amser i ffwrdd o hyd. Dyna pam y mae eich agwedd ‘medraf’ mor bwysig inni yng Nghymru, am eich bod yn ymdrechu’n galed, gyda phwerau cyfyngedig, i newid pethau er budd y bobl. Os nad yw pobl yn cydnabod hynny, nid ydynt yn fyw, oherwydd dyna a wna Sue Essex bob eiliad a dreulia ar faterion yn ymwneud â’r rheilffyrdd. Nid yw’n hawdd a hithau heb bwerau uniongyrchol. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn brwydro i sicrhau y bydd yr SRA yn cydnabod bod angen i’r cynlluniau hyn yng Nghymru gael cymorth digonol. A bod yn realistig, fodd bynnag, ni allwn ohirio’r cynlluniau hynny gan eu bod yn rhy bwysig.

I compliment Sue Essex on the visionary leadership that she has shown from day one on the re-opening of the Ebbw valley passenger railway service, which is a process that she has taken all the way through. Following the SRA’s announcement, it could be said that she has snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. It is important that the revenue funding is available so that those 100,000 people up in the Ebbw valley have the access that others take for granted. If you have a railway service, you do not understand what it is like for those people who have not had a railway service for the last 42 years. We are stuck up there, and that is why today’s statement is so monumental. What we have heard this afternoon guarantees that, in 2005, we will see the return of the Ebbw valley railway. There will be dancing in the streets tonight because of that announcement. I thank you on behalf of the people in Blaenau Gwent and Ebbw Vale. The initiative was targeted at those communities to deal with the economic problems caused by the closure of Corus and to help people there who live in deprived conditions. I conclude by thanking you for that very—

Canmolaf Sue Essex am ei harweinyddiaeth weledigaethol o’r cychwyn cyntaf ynglŷn ag ailagor gwasanaeth rheilffordd teithwyr yng nglyn Ebwy, sy’n broses y mae wedi ymwneud â hi ar hyd yr amser. Yn dilyn cyhoeddiad yr SRA, gellid dweud ei bod wedi troi methiant yn fuddugoliaeth. Mae’n bwysig bod yr arian refeniw ar gael er mwyn i’r 100,000 o bobl yng nglyn Ebwy gael yr un gwasanaeth ag a gymerir yn ganiataol gan eraill. Os oes gennych wasanaeth rheilffordd, nid ydych yn deall sut beth ydyw i’r bobl hynny na fu ganddynt wasanaeth rheilffordd am y 42 mlynedd diwethaf. Yno yr ydym yn bell o bobman a dyma pam mae’r datganiad heddiw mor bwysig. Mae’r hyn a glywsom y prynhawn yma yn sicrhau y bydd rheilffordd glyn Ebwy yn ailagor yn 2005. Bydd dathlu mawr heno yn sgîl y cyhoeddiad hwnnw. Diolchaf ichi ar ran pobl Blaenau Gwent a Glynebwy. Yr oedd y fenter wedi’i thargedu at y cymunedau hynny er mwyn ymdrin â’r problemau economaidd a achoswyd yn sgîl y penderfyniad i gau gwaith Corus ac i helpu pobl sy’n byw yno mewn amddifadedd. Gorffennaf drwy ddiolch ichi am y—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Order. Will you ask a question in your conclusion, Peter?

Trefn. A wnewch ofyn cwestiwn wrth ichi gloi, Peter?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 39

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I could not resist that opportunity to speak because this is a momentous occasion. Presiding Officer, I hope that you will be on the first train along with the First Minister, who has promised to be there. Minister, will you continue to put pressure on the SRA to provide the much-needed funding for those important Welsh schemes? Although you are able to obtain the subsidies yourself—and I remind the Chamber that there is a similar subsidy across the road from the Assembly in the Wales Millennium Centre—the SRA should provide the funding in the future. Will you welcome the major success of the Ebbw Vale railway consultation that is being undertaken at present? Over 500 people attended the exhibition during a four-hour period in Ebbw Vale town centre on Saturday morning to express their thanks and to show that they want the railway back.

Ni allwn beidio â manteisio ar y cyfle hwnnw i ddweud gair bach am fod hwn yn achlysur mor bwysig. Lywydd, gobeithiaf y byddwch ar y trên cyntaf gyda’r Prif Weinidog, sydd wedi addo bod yno. Weinidog, a wnewch barhau i bwyso ar yr SRA i ddarparu’r arian sydd ei angen yn ddybryd ar gyfer y cynlluniau pwysig hynny yng Nghymru? Er y gallwch gael y cymorthdaliadau eich hunan—ac atgoffaf y Siambr i gymhorthdal tebyg gael ei roi dros y ffordd i’r Cynulliad yng Nghanolfan Mileniwm Cymru—dylai’r SRA ddarparu’r arian yn y dyfodol. A groesawch lwyddiant mawr yr ymgynghoriad ar reilffordd Glynebwy sy’n mynd rhagddo ar hyn o bryd? Daeth dros 500 o bobl i weld yr arddangosfa yn ystod cyfnod o bedair awr yng nghanol tref Glynebwy fore dydd Sadwrn i fynegi eu diolch a dangos eu bod am gael y rheilffordd yn ôl.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 40

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I am delighted to hear that people will be dancing in the streets of Blaenau Gwent tonight. Nothing would give me greater pleasure. I am sure that you will be there dancing with them, Peter.

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed y bydd dathlu mawr ym Mlaenau Gwent heno. Ni fyddai dim yn rhoi mwy o bleser imi. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yno yn dathlu yn eu plith, Peter.

I remind you of the demise of Corus, the important steelworks, and the closures in Llanwern. The railway scheme had been in the pipeline for a long time, and we knew that you and others were extremely committed to it. That terrible blow to your community and to those communities around it was the stimulus to the decision that the railway scheme had to be implemented sooner rather than later. It is not only a key element for regenerating your community at the top end of the valley, but it will provide an important link for communities such as Newbridge, Llanhileth and for those communities further down the railway line.

Fe’ch hatgoffaf am ddirywiad Corus, y gwaith dur pwysig, ac am y gweithfeydd a gaewyd yn Llanwern. Bu’r cynllun rheilffordd yn yr arfaeth ers amser, a gwyddom eich bod chi ac eraill yn gwbl ymrwymedig iddo. Yr ergyd ofnadwy i’ch cymuned a’r cymunedau eraill o’i hamgylch a symbylodd y penderfyniad bod yn rhaid i’r cynllun rheilffordd gael ei roi ar waith cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae nid yn unig yn elfen allweddol o adfywio’ch cymuned ym mlaen y cwm, ond bydd yn gyswllt pwysig ar gyfer cymunedau megis Trecelyn, Llanhiledd a’r cymunedau hynny ymhellach i lawr y llinell reilffordd.

We are committed to the scheme, and we have made that clear today. I thank Edwina for her support. This is a crucial time, now that the exhibition is running and is getting such an enthusiastic response. I visited it a few weeks ago, and it is great. The exhibition is doing exactly the right thing in getting people involved and in providing a demonstration of the proposed projects. It would be terrible for people to think that the momentum has stopped: it has not stopped, but we still have a lot of work to do. We still have to get the capital together. There is an Objective 1 bid in, and work is ongoing. I want to send this message out today to encourage those who are undertaking that essential work. I thank you, Peter, for your support.

Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i’r cynllun, ac yr ydym wedi amlygu’r ymrwymiad hwnnw heddiw. Diolchaf i Edwina am ei chefnogaeth. Mae’n amser hollbwysig gan fod yr arddangosfa bellach ar agor ac yn cael ymateb mor frwdfrydig. Ymwelais â hi ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, ac mae’n wych. Mae’r arddangosfa yn gwneud y peth iawn yn union drwy gynnwys pobl a dangos y prosiectau arfaethedig iddynt. Byddai’n ofnadwy pe bai pobl yn meddwl bod y momentwm wedi peidio: nid yw wedi peidio, ond mae gennym lawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd. Rhaid inni gasglu’r arian cyfalaf ynghyd o hyd. Cyflwynwyd cais am arian Amcan 1 ac mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo. Hoffwn anfon y neges hon heddiw i annog y rhai sy’n gwneud y gwaith hanfodol hwnnw. Diolchaf ichi, Peter, am eich cefnogaeth.

David Davies spoken in English p. 40

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I share the general view that this is a disappointing statement, which means a cut in the current level of rail services at a time when there has been an increasing lack of public confidence in this mode of public transport. It may be true, to paraphrase part of your statement, that services are being reduced to increase reliability but, frankly, people will not see it that way. Despite the many well-publicised problems with rail services, the numbers of passengers using the railways has been increasing. Decisions like this hark back to the days when a nationalised British Rail was being run for the benefit of the employees, not the customers, and the strategy was one of managed decline.

Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â’r farn gyffredinol bod hwn yn ddatganiad siomedig, sy’n golygu y caiff y gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd presennol eu cwtogi ar adeg pan fo’r cyhoedd yn gynyddol yn colli hyder yn y modd hwn o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Gall fod yn wir, i aralleirio rhan o’ch datganiad, fod gwasanaethau yn cael eu cwtogi i wneud y gwasanaeth yn fwy dibynadwy ond, a bod yn onest, ni fydd pobl yn ei ddehongli felly. Er gwaethaf y problemau gyda gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd, y bu sylw mawr iddynt, mae nifer y teithwyr sy’n defnyddio’r rheilffyrdd wedi bod yn cynyddu. Mae penderfyniadau fel hyn yn adlais o’r dyddiau pan oedd y rheilffordd wladol, British Rail, yn cael ei rhedeg er budd y gweithwyr ac nid y cwsmeriaid, gyda strategaeth o ddirywiad wedi’i reoli.

Do you agree that in the short term we need to ensure that Wales has a voice on the SRA by appointing a member to it? However, in the longer term, we should all remember that around 5,000 people die on the roads every year. That is a terribly high amount, comparable to the number who died in the World Trade Center disaster. In view of that, perhaps we should consider why the costs of the rail industry are increasing, as you indicated in your statement. Perhaps we should consider, in a mature fashion, the amount that we ask the rail operators to spend on high-tech safety measures that may or may not impact on the small number of casualties that occur every year on the railways. We should consider the impact these cuts will have on passenger numbers, and thus the amount of people who are forced onto the roads as a result and the amount of extra road fatalities that that causes. This is a difficult and sensitive matter, which should not be subject to party-political points. I am sure that many of us know someone who was killed in a car accident, but I imagine that few of us know anyone who was killed in a rail accident.

A gytunwch fod angen inni sicrhau bod gan Gymru lais ar yr SRA yn y tymor byr drwy benodi aelod iddo? Fodd bynnag, yn y tymor hwy, dylem oll gofio bod tua 5,000 o bobl yn marw ar y ffyrdd bob blwyddyn. Mae hynny yn nifer uchel iawn, o gymharu â nifer y bobl a fu farw yn nhrychineb Canolfan Masnach y Byd. O ystyried hynny, efallai y dylem ystyried pam bod costau’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd yn cynyddu, fel y nodwyd yn eich datganiad. Efallai y dylem ystyried, mewn ffordd aeddfed, y swm y gofynnwn i’r cwmnïau rheilffyrdd ei wario ar fesurau diogelwch uwch-dechnoleg a allai neu na allent effeithio ar y nifer fach o bobl a gaiff eu lladd neu eu hanafu bob blwyddyn ar y rheilffyrdd. Dylem ystyried effaith y cwtogiadau hyn ar nifer y teithwyr, ac felly nifer y bobl sy’n cael eu gorfodi i deithio ar y ffyrdd o ganlyniad a nifer y bobl ychwanegol a gaiff eu lladd o ganlyniad i hynny. Mae hwn yn fater anodd a sensitif, na ddylai fod yn destun gwleidydda pleidiol. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod llawer ohonom yn adnabod rhywun a fu farw mewn damwain car, ond tybiaf mai ychydig ohonom sy’n adnabod rhywun a fu farw mewn damwain ar y rheilffyrdd.

We should also consider other problems suffered by the rail industry, such as the cuts in the freight facilities grants—

Dylem hefyd ystyried problemau eraill a wyneba’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd, megis cwtogi’r grantiau cyfleusterau cludo nwyddau—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Order. I asked for a question from an earlier contributor. It is time I asked you for a question also.

Trefn. Gofynnais am gwestiwn gan siaradwr cynharach. Mae’n bryd imi ofyn i chithau am gwestiwn hefyd.

David Davies spoken in English p. 41

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

I appreciate that. Will the Minister consider all these factors and take a wide view? Will she confirm that the rail industry could play a large part in terms of reducing the number of casualties on the roads every year?

Gwerthfawrogaf hynny. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried yr holl ffactorau hyn ac edrych ar y sefyllfa yn ei chyfanrwydd? A wnaiff gadarnhau y gallai’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd chwarae rhan fawr o ran lleihau nifer y bobl a gaiff eu lladd neu eu hanafu ar y ffyrdd bob blwyddyn?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 42

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

We are not in the business of trading off one element of safety for another. That is not how it works. I remind you that I am launching our road safety strategy in Sandfields tomorrow. We have invested a great deal of money into improving road safety in terms of infrastructure—we know a great deal more about how to manage trunk roads and motorways. We have also launched many important safety initiatives, such as Safe Routes to School, including the appointment of child pedestrian training co-ordinators.

Nid cyfaddawdu un agwedd ar ddiogelwch er mwyn gwario ar agwedd arall yw ein nod. Nid dyna sut mae pethau yn gweithio. Fe’ch hatgoffaf fy mod yn lansio ein strategaeth diogelwch ar y ffyrdd yn Sandfields yfory. Yr ydym wedi buddsoddi cryn dipyn o arian er mwyn gwella diogelwch ar y ffyrdd o ran seilwaith—gwyddom gryn dipyn yn fwy am sut i reoli cefnffyrdd a thraffyrdd. Yr ydym hefyd wedi lansio llawer o fentrau diogelwch pwysig, megis Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol, gan gynnwys penodi cydlynwyr hyfforddiant i blant sy’n cerdded i’r ysgol.

I watched a programme on the Southall rail crash some weeks ago. It was a difficult programme to watch. Some of you may have seen it. It explained how and why the crash happened and the impact on those who were involved and are still alive to tell the tale. It was horrendous. We should not stint on trying to get the best and safest railways possible.

Gwyliais raglen ar ddamwain rheilffordd Southall ychydig wythnosau yn ôl. Yr oedd yn rhaglen anodd i’w gwylio. Efallai i rai ohonoch ei gweld. Esboniodd sut a pham y digwyddodd y ddamwain a’r effaith ar y rhai a oedd yno ac sydd wedi goroesi. Yr oedd yn erchyll. Ni ddylem ymatal rhag gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i geisio cael y rheilffyrdd gorau a mwyaf diogel posibl.

On cost issues, David said that he was not making a party-political point, but I will make one, because privatisation caused these problems. The supply of labour and skill and the available infrastructure had declined so much that when we tried to kick-start the rail industry, there was such a huge demand for rail services by growing numbers of passenger, that we could not increase the supply quickly enough. In terms of simple economics, the prices were bound to shoot up. That is what has happened. Those costs, particularly relating to infrastructure, have escalated because the industry does not have the capacity to respond. I am not happy about that and it needs to be rectified. The SRA is judged to have that responsibility.

O ran costau, dywedodd David nad oedd yn mynd i wneud pwynt pleidiol, ond gwnaf un, gan mai preifateiddio a achosodd y problemau hyn. Yr oedd y cyflenwad o lafur a sgiliau a’r seilwaith a oedd ar gael wedi gostwng cymaint, erbyn inni geisio adfywio’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd, yr oedd cymaint o alw am wasanaethau rheilffyrdd gan nifer cynyddol o deithwyr fel na allem gynyddu’r cyflenwad yn ddigon cyflym. O ran economeg syml, yr oedd yn anochel y byddai’r prisiau yn codi’n gyflym. Dyna a ddigwyddodd. Mae’r costau hynny, yn enwedig o ran costau seilwaith, wedi cynyddu am nad oes gan y diwydiant y capasiti i ymateb. Nid wyf yn fodlon ar hynny ac mae angen ei unioni. Bernir mai’r SRA sy’n gyfrifol am wneud hynny.

I have stood up here many times and discussed my frustrations with Railtrack, which has now been replaced by Network Rail. It is a company limited by guarantee like Glas Cymru, but it is already starting to make its presence felt. There was an announcement last week that it had taken a contract on board. All these matters take time. However, I am disappointed about cutbacks in services. We need to get this into perspective. I know that people in north Wales will be bitter about the cutbacks in prospective rail services to and from the north because we were all led to believe that these services were on their way. There was such a great deal of optimism about them. Although these matters are not within my responsibilities, and I have no control over them, I feel sorry for people in north Wales who were looking forward to receiving those services.

Yr wyf wedi sefyll yma droeon ac wedi sôn am fy rhwystredigaeth mewn perthynas â Railtrack sydd bellach wedi’i ddisodli gan Network Rail. Cwmni cyfyngedig drwy warant ydyw fel Glas Cymru, ond mae eisoes yn dechrau gwneud gwahaniaeth. Cyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf ei fod wedi ymrwymo i gontract. Mae’r holl faterion hyn yn cymryd amser. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siomedig ynglŷn â’r toriadau i wasanaethau. Mae angen edrych ar hyn yn ei wir gyd-destun. Gwn y bydd pobl yn y Gogledd yn chwerw ynglŷn â’r cwtogiadau i’r gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd arfaethedig i’r gogledd ac oddi yno am i bob un ohonom gael ein harwain i gredu bod y gwasanaethau hyn ar y gweill. Yr oedd cryn optimistiaeth yn eu cylch. Er nad fi sy’n gyfrifol am y materion hyn, ac nad oes gennyf reolaeth drostynt, teimlaf yn flin dros bobl yn y Gogledd a oedd yn edrych ymlaen at gael y gwasanaethau hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Order. Before I call Eleanor Burnham, there are only four minutes left to respond to this statement. I will not extend the time available, because we have important business to get through this afternoon.

Trefn. Cyn imi alw ar Eleanor Burnham, dim ond pedair munud sy’n weddill i ymateb i’r datganiad hwn. Nid estynnaf yr amser sydd ar gael, am fod busnes pwysig o’n blaen y prynhawn yma.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 43

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I pay tribute to Sue and her ongoing commitment to rail users in Wales. The Welsh Liberal Democrats believe that until we have the same powers as Scotland has to direct the SRA, we will continue to be treated as a side show in terms of our representation on the SRA. I am concerned about these matters, particularly after many recent meetings with partners and stakeholders including, as you know, Taith and other north Wales partners and bidders. I pay tribute to Taith and north Wales local authorities. However, I am concerned about the ongoing delay of the franchise bid and the SRA’s demands for a reduction of up to 20 per cent. I understand, though I may be corrected on this, that this is the only UK area that is being subjected to such a demand by the SRA. Following comments made from the managing director of Virgin, Chris Green, about the meltdown on Railtrack’s west-coast upgrade, we are aghast at the resultant cut in services, including the Euston to Holyhead and Cardiff to Holyhead services. Some Members chose not to stand for the Assembly in the next election because of the pressure of travelling. I am sure that Dafydd Wigley will not mind me mentioning him as one of those Members. He has made public statements about the pressure of travelling, as has Gareth Jones. It is not only a personal matter, but affects many potential customers from north Wales since devolution.

Talaf deyrnged i Sue a’i hymrwymiad parhaus i ddefnyddwyr rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Cred Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru y parhawn i gael ein diystyru o ran cynrychiolaeth ar yr SRA nes y cawn yr un pwerau â’r Alban i’w gyfarwyddo. Pryderaf am y materion hyn, yn arbennig ar ôl nifer o gyfarfodydd diweddar gyda phartneriaid a rhanddeiliaid, gan gynnwys, fel y gwyddoch, Taith, a phartneriaid ac ymgeiswyr eraill yn y Gogledd. Talaf deyrnged i Taith ac awdurdodau lleol yn y Gogledd. Fodd bynnag, pryderaf ynglŷn â’r oedi parhaus cyn penderfynu ar y fasnachfraint a’r ffaith bod yr SRA yn gofyn am ostyngiad o hyd at 20 y cant. Deallaf, ond cewch fy nghywiro ar hynny, mai Cymru yw’r unig ran o’r DU lle mae’r SRA yn gofyn am ostyngiadau o’r fath. Yn dilyn sylwadau gan reolwr gyfarwyddwr Virgin, Chris Green, fod bwriad Railtrack i uwchraddio llinell arfordir gorllewinol Lloegr wedi mynd ar chwâl, cawsom ein syfrdanu gan y toriad dilynol i wasanaethau, gan gynnwys y gwasanaeth rhwng Euston a Chaergybi a rhwng Caerdydd a Chaergybi. Dewisodd rhai Aelodau beidio â sefyll dros y Cynulliad yn yr etholiad nesaf oherwydd pwysau teithio. Yr wyf yn siŵr na fyddai gwahaniaeth gan Dafydd Wigley pe bawn yn ei enwi fel un o’r Aelodau hynny. Gwnaeth ddatganiadau cyhoeddus ynglŷn â phwysau teithio, fel y gwnaeth Gareth Jones. Nid mater personol yn unig ydyw, ond un sy’n effeithio ar lawer o ddarpar gwsmeriaid o’r Gogledd ers datganoli.

Thank you for your indulgence, Llywydd.

Diolch ichi am fod yn oddefgar, Lywydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Order. No-one is having any indulgence in this Chamber, particularly today. Ask a question, please.

Trefn. Caiff pawb ei drin yn yr un ffordd yn y Siambr hon, yn arbennig heddiw. Gofynnwch gwestiwn os gwelwch yn dda.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 44

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I want your assurance, Minister, that you will do your best. Can I also have assurance on representation from Wales on Network Rail and the SRA, because we do not hear enough about who is working on our behalf or how they are doing so? Please assure us that we can get from north to south by rail, as we should be able to.

Hoffwn gael sicrwydd gennych, Weinidog, y gwnewch eich gorau. A allaf hefyd gael sicrwydd ynglŷn â chynrychiolaeth o Gymru ar Network Rail a’r SRA, am nad ydym yn clywed digon ynghylch pwy sy’n gweithio ar ein rhan neu sut y maent yn gwneud hynny? A roddwch sicrwydd inni y gallwn deithio o’r gogledd i’r de ar y rheilffordd, fel y dylem fod yn gallu ei wneud.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 44

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I will move through this quickly. I support what you said about Taith. It is undertaking good work in north Wales. Wales and borders is not the only franchise to face the 10 to 20 per cent cuts in funding. Mersey rail is in the same situation. I should not use the word ‘cuts’, they are, in fact, options put forward for the bidders. It is up to the bidders how they respond to those options.

Trafodaf bob pwynt yn gyflym. Cefnogaf yr hyn a ddywedasoch am Taith. Mae’n gwneud gwaith da yn y Gogledd. Nid masnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau yw’r unig fasnachfraint sy’n wynebu toriadau o 10 i 20 y cant yn ei chyllid. Mae rheilffordd Merswy yn yr un sefyllfa. Ni ddylwn ddefnyddio’r gair ‘toriadau’, oherwydd opsiynau a gynigiwyd i’r ymgeiswyr ydynt mewn gwirionedd. Yr ymgeiswyr fydd yn penderfynu sut y maent yn ymateb i’r opsiynau hynny.

We are not the only area subject to cuts. Other franchises coming through are in the same situation. I am concerned about the three to four expected cuts each way in north Wales that were part of the Severn services. On the Cardiff to Holyhead route, the Assembly has invested a considerable amount of money into that route to improve the service. I use it, as does Karen Sinclair and others. That has worked well. We have shown commitment on that.

Nid ni yw’r unig ran o’r DU sy’n wynebu toriadau. Mae masnachfreintiau arfaethedig eraill yn yr un sefyllfa. Yr wyf yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r gostyngiad disgwyliedig o dri neu bedwar yn nifer y trenau bob ffordd yn y Gogledd a oedd yn rhan o wasanaethau Hafren. O ran y llwybr rhwng Caerdydd a Chaergybi, mae’r Cynulliad wedi buddsoddi cryn dipyn o arian yn y llwybr hwnnw i wella’r gwasanaeth. Yr wyf yn ei ddefnyddio, fel y gwna Karen Sinclair ac eraill. Mae hynny wedi gweithio’n dda. Yr ydym wedi dangos ymrwymiad yn hynny o beth.

I have already covered SRA representation. I see no reason why the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee cannot ask the official who has represented us on the SRA to come to the Assembly. The Assembly is a member of Network Rail. There are around 140 members under that set-up of a not-for-dividend company. Denzil Jones is the official who represented us at its recent meeting. I reassure you that I am determined to ensure that we do all that we can to get a first-class rail service for Wales. The fact that matters are not in our control adds to my frustrations. However, we will use all the powers and influence that we have to move forward.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi trafod cynrychiolaeth ar yr SRA. Ni welaf pam na all Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ofyn i’r swyddog sydd wedi ein cynrychioli ar yr SRA ddod i’r Cynulliad. Mae’r Cynulliad yn aelod o Network Rail. Mae tua 140 o aelodau o dan y trefniant hwnnw sy’n gwmni nad yw’n talu difidend. Denzil Jones yw’r swyddog a’n cynrychiolodd yn ei gyfarfod diweddar. Hoffwn roi sicrwydd ichi fy mod yn benderfynol o sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth o fewn ei gallu i gael gwasanaeth rheilffordd o’r radd flaenaf i Gymru. Mae’r ffaith nad yw’r materion hyn o dan ein rheolaeth yn ychwanegu at fy rhwystredigaeth. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn defnyddio’r holl bwerau a’r dylanwad sydd gennym i symud ymlaen.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 45

Mae’r Gweinidog yn sylweddoli na fydd dawnsio ar strydoedd Gogledd Cymru ar ôl y datganiad hwn. Yn y 1970au, yr oedd saith trên o Gaergybi i Euston. Erbyn hyn, mae dau neu dri—pan maent yn rhedeg. Pwysaf arnoch, yng nghyd-destun y rhan o’ch datganiad a groesawyd gennym fwyaf, i ymladd am fwy o reolaeth i’r Cynulliad hwn dros yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. A wnewch hefyd bwyso i gael rhan o gyllid yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol sydd ar hyn o bryd yn nwylo Llundain, wedi’i ddatganoli o dan fformiwla Barnett?

The Minister realises that there will not be dancing in the streets of north Wales after this statement. In the 1970s, there were seven trains from Holyhead to Euston. Now, there are two or three—when they are running. I urge you, in the context of the part of your statement that we welcomed the most, to fight for more control for this Assembly over the SRA. Will you also press for part of the SRA’s funding, which at present is controlled by London, to be devolved under the Barnett formula?

A wnewch hefyd sicrhau ein bod ni’n cael 100 y cant o’r cysylltiad, fel sydd gan Senedd yr Alban ar gyfer ei chyfrifoldebau trenau? Byddai hynny’n rhoi oddeutu £130 miliwn inni, yn lle’r £93 miliwn a gawn ar hyn o bryd. Byddai’n gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol i’n rhagolygon ni a’n gallu i ddatblygu gwasanaeth trenau iawn yng Nghymru, o gymharu â’r hyn na chawn gan yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ar hyn o bryd.

Will you also ensure that we get 100 per cent of the linkage, as the Scottish Parliament does for its train responsibilities? That would give us about £130 million, rather than the £93 million that we get at present. It would make a significant difference to our forecasts and our ability to develop a proper train service in Wales, in contrast to what we do not get from the SRA at present.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 45

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

As I have said in previous debates, I want the powers, but I also want adequate funding. If it is done via the Barnett formula—and we have looked at the figures—we will perhaps be worse off than we are now. I am happy to discuss that with you, but that is my and my officials’ view. We want to get the powers and adequate funding to accompany that. That is crucial.

Fel y dywedais mewn dadleuon blaenorol, yr wyf am gael y pwerau, ond yr wyf am gael arian digonol hefyd. Os gwneir hynny drwy fformiwla Barnett—ac yr ydym wedi astudio’r ffigurau—byddwn yn waeth ein byd o bosibl. Yr wyf yn barod i drafod hynny gyda chi, ond dyna fy marn i a barn fy swyddogion i. Yr ydym am gael y pwerau ac arian digonol i gyd-fynd â hwy. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I am adhering to time limits today for obvious reasons. There is great public interest in an important motion to be proposed later today, under Standing Order No. 31.9. I will ensure that the rights of Members to pursue the use of that particular Standing Order are fully protected in this Assembly.

Cadwaf at y terfynau amser heddiw am resymau amlwg. Mae gan y cyhoedd ddiddordeb mawr mewn cynnig pwysig a gynigir yn ddiweddarach heddiw, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 31.9. Byddaf yn sicrhau y caiff hawliau’r Aelodau i ddefnyddio’r Rheol Sefydlog honno eu diogelu’n llawn yn y Cynulliad hwn.

Datganiad ar y Strategaeth Addysg Uwch

Statement on the Higher Education Strategy

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 46

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Charles Clarke today published his strategy for higher education in England. Most functions affecting higher education in Wales are devolved to the Assembly. We are clear about the benefits of higher education for the individual, for communities and for the wider economy of Wales. This is why we made it a priority to develop a coherent and strategic 10-year policy for that sector—‘Reaching Higher’, which was published in March 2002. The UK Government’s strategy substantially parallels the one we are already implementing in Wales. It sets out a vision of a sector characterised by excellence and diversity. It sets excellent teaching and widening access as key missions for all. It acknowledges the importance of each institution developing strength in its chosen mission, whether research, teaching or knowledge transfer. It endorses the important principle that higher education must be available to everyone with the ability to access it.

Cyhoeddodd Charles Clarke heddiw ei strategaeth ar gyfer addysg uwch yn Lloegr. Datganolir y rhan fwyaf o’r swyddogaethau sy’n effeithio ar addysg uwch yng Nghymru i’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn glir ynghylch buddiannau addysg uwch i’r unigolyn, i gymunedau ac i economi ehangach Cymru. Dyna pam mae’n flaenoriaeth gennym i ddatblygu polisi 10 mlynedd cydlynol a strategol ar gyfer y sector hwnnw—‘Ymgeisio yn Uwch’ a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mawrth 2002. Mae strategaeth Llywodraeth y DU yn cyfateb yn sylweddol â’r un yr ydym eisoes yn ei gweithredu yng Nghymru. Mae’n nodi gweledigaeth sector wedi ei nodweddu gan ragoriaeth ac amrywiaeth. Mae’n gosod addysgu rhagorol ac ehangu mynediad fel amcanion allweddol i bawb. Mae’n cydnabod pa mor bwysig ydyw i bob sefydliad ddatblygu cryfder yn ei genhadaeth ddewisol, boed hynny’n ymchwil, yn addysgu neu’n drosglwyddo gwybodaeth. Mae’n cymeradwyo’r egwyddor bwysig bod yn rhaid i addysg uwch fod ar gael i bawb all gael mynediad iddi.

There is one area in which policy is not devolved. It relates to the framework of funding for student support. I am delighted that central Government has decided in favour of the approach for which we have been pressing since the publication of the Rees report in 2000, namely the abolition of ‘up-front’ tuition fees and the introduction of an end-loaded, income-contingent graduate endowment contribution. We accept the principle, established by Rees, that individuals should contribute to the cost of their education, alongside Government investment. However, that should be payable after the education experience and we welcome the increased repayment threshold of £15,000. That is now being proposed by Charles Clarke.

Mae un maes lle na ddatganolir polisi. Mae a wnelo â’r fframwaith ariannu i gynnal myfyrwyr. Yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth ganolog wedi penderfynu o blaid yr ymagwedd y buom yn pwyso amdani ers cyhoeddi adroddiad Rees yn 2002, sef diddymu ffioedd dysgu ‘ymlaen llaw’ a chyflwyno cyfraniad gwaddol graddedigion, yn amodol ar incwm ar ddiwedd cwrs. Derbyniwn yr egwyddor, a sefydlwyd gan Rees, y dylai unigolion gyfrannu at gost eu haddysg, ochr yn ochr â buddsoddiad y Llywodraeth. Fodd bynnag, dylai hynny fod yn daladwy ar ôl y profiad addysg a chroesawn y trothwy ad-dalu mwy o £15,000. Mae hynny’n cael ei gynnig yn awr gan Charles Clarke.

The White Paper makes new proposals for the financing of higher education, including a new fee system, abolishing up-front tuition fees and reintroducing maintenance grants. We particularly welcome the survey of student income and expenditure, which will aim to ensure that students have enough for the basics while they are at university. This Assembly Government has put in place its own system of student support, which will continue. Wales will also need to respond to new circumstances and may need new powers to do so. The issues are not straightforward. However, the Assembly should have the scope to take these decisions itself, following appropriate consultation in Wales. That is why I am pleased that Charles Clarke said today that we are discussing the potential of going down the route of devolving student finance to Wales. This is a complicated area and we will continue to discuss the detail in the coming weeks. This gives us a major new opportunity to take forward the work that we have begun on building social justice, widening access and establishing an even stronger higher education sector.

Mae’r Papur Gwyn yn gwneud cynigion newydd ar gyfer ariannu addysg uwch, gan gynnwys system ffioedd newydd, diddymu ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw ac ailgyflwyno grantiau cynhaliaeth. Croesawn yn arbennig yr arolwg o incwm a gwariant myfyrwyr, a fydd yn anelu at sicrhau bod gan fyfyrwyr ddigon ar gyfer y pethau sylfaenol tra eu bod yn y brifysgol. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn y Cynulliad wedi rhoi ei system ei hun o gymorth i fyfyrwyr ar waith, a fydd yn parhau. Bydd angen i Gymru ymateb hefyd i amgylchiadau newydd ac efallai y bydd angen pwerau newydd arni i wneud hynny. Nid yw’r materion yn rhai syml. Fodd bynnag, dylai fod gan y Cynulliad y cyfle i wneud y penderfyniadau hyn ei hun, yn dilyn ymgynghori priodol yng Nghymru. Dyna pam fy mod yn falch bod Charles Clarke wedi dweud heddiw ein bod yn trafod y posibilrwydd o ddatganoli cyllid myfyrwyr i Gymru. Mae hwn yn faes cymhleth a byddwn yn parhau i drafod y manylion yn yr wythnosau i ddod. Rhydd hyn gyfle mawr newydd inni ddatblygu’r gwaith a ddechreuwyd gennym ar sicrhau cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, ehangu mynediad a sefydlu sector addysg uwch yn gryfach byth.

I note that the White Paper proposals would enable higher education institutions to charge fees within a range determined by the Government, accompanied by proposals for additional support for the worst off. As I made clear in my letter to Charles Clarke in December, the Assembly Government is clear that up-front tuition fees and, similarly, top-up fees, work against encouraging more students from the most disadvantaged backgrounds into higher education. Top-up fees will not be introduced until 2006, which gives time for serious debate in Wales, among learners and higher education institutions, on how this proposal may or may not apply in Wales. Charles Clarke shares the Assembly’s belief that higher education should be available to all those with the ability to benefit from it. However, we do not share the UK Government’s 50 per cent target, which could be met without changing the composition of our student population. I have chosen to focus on recruitment from low participation groups. That is why we introduced the Assembly learning grant. We are complementing that by supporting innovative measures, taken forward in partnership and geared at regional needs. We are looking to target children from a younger age, as well as those in the community and those already in further education.

Nodaf y byddai cynigion y Papur Gwyn yn galluogi sefydliadau addysg uwch i godi ffioedd o fewn ystod a bennir gan y Llywodraeth, ynghyd â chynigion ar gyfer cymorth ychwanegol i’r rhai gwaethaf eu byd. Fel yr eglurais yn fy llythyr at Charles Clarke ym mis Rhagfyr, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn glir bod ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw, ac yn yr un modd, ffioedd ychwanegol, yn gweithio yn erbyn annog mwy o fyfyrwyr o’r cefndiroedd mwyaf difreintiedig i addysg uwch. Ni chaiff ffioedd ychwanegol eu cyflwyno tan 2006, sy’n rhoi digon o amser i gynnal trafodaethau difrifol yng Nghymru, ymhlith dysgwyr a sefydliadau addysg uwch, ar sut y gallai’r cynnig hwn fod yn berthnasol yng Nghymru neu beidio. Mae Charles Clarke yn rhannu cred y Cynulliad y dylai addysg uwch fod ar gael i bawb all elwa ohoni. Fodd bynnag, ni rannwn darged 50 y cant Llywodraeth y DU, y gellid ei gyrraedd heb newid cyfansoddiad ein myfyrwyr. Yr wyf wedi dewis canolbwyntio ar recriwtio o grwpiau cyfranogiad isel. Dyna pam y cyflwynasom grant dysgu’r Cynulliad. Ategwn hynny drwy gefnogi mesurau blaengar, a ddatblygwyd mewn partneriaeth ac a anelir at anghenion rhanbarthol. Yr ydym yn anelu at dargedu plant o oedran iau, yn ogystal â’r rhai yn y gymuned a’r rhai sydd eisoes mewn addysg bellach.

If we are to be judged a success at widening access, then we must also ensure that all students enjoy a high-quality experience. That is why, in common with Charles Clarke, we want to foster excellence in teaching and learning. We are keen to develop and reward excellence in an undervalued aspect of higher education institutions’ work and will work closely with the Department for Education and Skills and the Higher Education Funding Council for England. The proposals on university status and degree-awarding powers are relevant to us, and we will work closely with the DfES on developing them. If we are to meet the needs of non-traditional students, and the demands of a generation of students who are contributing to the cost of their education, then we must offer high standards. That is at the centre of ‘Reaching Higher’. However, if problems occur, it is important that they are dealt with sensitively and fairly. That is why I support the proposals for a new, independent complaints procedure. The quality of higher education must be beyond dispute. Today, I have focused on the student support elements of the English strategy, their link with widening access, and the teaching agenda. I nevertheless maintain a focus on research and knowledge exploitation as strengths in themselves, as they impact on the student experience and as a contributor to the wider economy.

Er mwyn i ni gael ein hystyried yn llwyddiannus o ran ehangu mynediad, rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd fod pob myfyriwr yn cael profiad o ansawdd da. Dyna pam, yn gyffredin â Charles Clarke, yr ydym am feithrin rhagoriaeth mewn addysgu a dysgu. Yr ydym yn awyddus i ddatblygu a gwobrwyo rhagoriaeth mewn agwedd ar waith sefydliadau addysg uwch nas gwerthfawrogir ddigon a byddwn yn cydweithio’n agos â’r Adran Addysg a Sgiliau a Chyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Lloegr. Mae’r cynigion ar statws prifysgol a phwerau dyfarnu graddau yn berthnasol i ni, a byddwn yn cydweithio’n agos â’r Adran Addysg a Sgiliau i’w datblygu. Er mwyn diwallu anghenion myfyrwyr anhraddodiadol, a galwadau cenhedlaeth o fyfyrwyr sy’n cyfrannu at gost eu haddysg, mae’n rhaid inni gynnig safonau uchel. Mae hynny wrth wraidd ‘Ymgeisio yn Uwch’. Fodd bynnag, pe bai problemau’n codi, mae’n bwysig iddynt gael eu trin yn sensitif ac yn deg. Dyna pam y cefnogaf y cynigion ar gyfer gweithdrefn gwyno annibynnol newydd. Rhaid i ansawdd addysg uwch fod y tu hwnt i amheuaeth. Heddiw, canolbwyntiais ar elfennau cynnal myfyrwyr strategaeth Lloegr, eu cyswllt ag ehangu mynediad, a’r agenda addysgu. Serch hynny, parhaf i ganolbwyntio ar ymchwil a defnyddio gwybodaeth i’r eithaf fel cryfderau ynddynt hwy eu hunain, wrth iddynt effeithio ar brofiad myfyrwyr ac fel rhywbeth sy’n cyfrannu at yr economi ehangach.

I welcome the establishment of a UK Arts and Humanities Research Council, which will put these subjects on the same footing as sciences. We must retain comparability of research standards across the UK. We do not wish to pre-empt the review of research assessment. However, we will stay in close discussions with colleagues in England to ensure that their proposals for a 6* measure of research performance do not disadvantage our institutions.

Croesawaf sefydlu Cyngor Ymchwil y Celfyddydau a’r Dyniaethau yn y DU, a fydd yn sicrhau cyfartaledd rhwng y pynciau hyn â’r gwyddorau. Rhaid inni gadw cyffelybrwydd safonau ymchwil ledled y DU. Nid ydym yn dymuno achub y blaen ar yr adolygiad o asesiad ymchwil. Fodd bynnag, parhawn i gynnal trafodaethau agos â chydweithwyr yn Lloegr i sicrhau nad yw eu cynigion ar gyfer mesur 6* o berfformiad ymchwil yn rhoi ein sefydliadau o dan anfantais.

This is an exciting time for higher education. Our strategy was based on a detailed assessment of the sector and on our needs in Wales. That remains the focus of our policy in Wales, and I am heartened by the progress that has already been made with our reconfiguration agenda. I look to institutions to continue to focus on this important work, which will open the door to future improvements and excellence in all areas. The English strategy represents a positive package of proposals, demonstrating the influence of the policies that we are pursuing and the effectiveness of our relationship with the UK Government. I welcome the announcement today.

Mae hon yn adeg gyffrous i addysg uwch. Seiliwyd ein strategaeth ar asesiad manwl o’r sector a’n hanghenion yng Nghymru. Erys hynny yn ganolbwynt ein polisi yng Nghymru, ac mae’r cynnydd a wnaed eisoes gyda’n hagenda ailgyflunio yn galonogol. Disgwyliaf i’r sefydliadau barhau i ganolbwyntio ar y gwaith pwysig hwn a fydd yn agor y drws i welliannau yn y dyfodol a rhagoriaeth ymhob maes. Mae strategaeth Lloegr yn cynrychioli pecyn cadarnhaol o gynigion, gan ddangos dylanwad y polisïau yr ydym yn mynd ar eu trywydd ac effeithiolrwydd ein perthynas â Llywodraeth y DU. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad heddiw.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 49

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

We have faced an extraordinary situation over the last few days, with senior Labour figures at Westminster briefing and counter-briefing about whether or not there would be any mention of devolution in the Westminster Minister’s statement today. It is plain from his statement that the centralists won out. Listening to Charles Clarke’s statement, it was as if devolution had never happened. I have never seen such a clear case of ‘for Wales—see England’, since devolution occurred. There was no mention of Wales as a separate nation in his statement, and he only referred to devolution in response to a question. I am no clearer about how his statement will impact in Wales after the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning’s statement. Some of what Charles Clarke said could have a far-reaching impact. We should consider—and this is my first request to the Minister—a full debate on this matter, once she and her officials have had an opportunity to consider further what impact Charles Clarke’s proposals may have in Wales. She was clearly not effectively consulted up-front. However, I also seek clarification on how elements of the Westminster announcement will or will not affect higher education in Wales. I begin with the important issue of ethos. The Minister said that the Westminster strategy substantially parallels ‘Reaching Higher’. However, there were elements in Charles Clarke’s remarks that were a cause for concern. For example, his emphasis on endowment as the long-term future for the funding of universities in Britain sounded like privatisation by the back door. Is that an argument for reducing Government investment in higher education? If so, does the Minister see us going down that road? If not, then what is the long-term alternative? Charles Clarke said that we already have a multi-tiered higher education sector, which implies that it does not matter if we have elitist elements in the sector. Does the Minister agree with that? I think that it is acceptable to have universities with different specialisms, but in Wales we do not want some universities to be seen as being better than others in the long term. Given that she has said that Charles Clarke’s strategy substantially parallels her own, I would like the Minister’s response on that.

Yr ydym wedi wynebu sefyllfa ryfeddol dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, gydag uwch aelodau Llafur yn San Steffan yn briffio ac yn gwrth-friffio ynghylch pa un a fyddai unrhyw sôn am ddatganoli yn natganiad y Gweinidog yn San Steffan heddiw. Mae’n amlwg o’i ddatganiad bod y canoliaethwyr wedi ennill. Wrth wrando ar ddatganiad Charles Clarke, yr oedd fel pe na bai datganoli erioed wedi digwydd. Nid wyf erioed wedi gweld enghraifft mor amlwg o ‘ar gyfer Cymru—gweler Lloegr’, ers datganoli. Nid oedd sôn am Gymru fel gwlad ar wahân yn ei ddatganiad, a dim ond mewn ymateb i gwestiwn y cyfeiriodd at ddatganoli. Nid wyf yn gliriach ynghylch sut y bydd ei ddatganiad yn effeithio ar Gymru ar ôl datganiad y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Gallai peth o’r hyn a ddywedodd Charles Clarke fod wedi cael effaith bellgyrhaeddol. Dylem ystyried—a dyma fy nghais cyntaf i’r Gweinidog—ddadl lawn ar y mater hwn, unwaith y bydd hi a’i swyddogion wedi cael cyfle i ystyried ymhellach pa effaith y gallai cynigion Charles Clarke ei chael yng Nghymru. Yn amlwg nid ymgynghorwyd yn effeithiol â hi ymlaen llaw. Fodd bynnag, ceisiaf eglurhad hefyd ar y modd y bydd neu na fydd elfennau o gyhoeddiad San Steffan yn effeithio ar addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Dechreuaf gyda mater pwysig ethos. Dywedodd y Gweinidog fod strategaeth San Steffan yn cyfateb yn sylweddol ag ‘Ymgeisio yn Uwch’. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd rhannau o sylwadau Charles Clarke yn achosi pryder. Er enghraifft, yr oedd ei bwyslais ar waddol fel y dyfodol hirdymor ar gyfer ariannu prifysgolion ym Mhrydain yn swnio fel preifateiddio drwy’r drws cefn. A yw hynny’n ddadl dros leihau buddsoddiad y Llywodraeth mewn addysg uwch? Os felly, a yw’r Gweinidog yn ein gweld yn mynd ar hyd y ffordd honno? Os nad yw, yna beth yw’r dewis amgen hirdymor? Dywedodd Charles Clarke fod gennym eisoes sector addysg uwch amlhaenog, sy’n awgrymu nad yw’n gwneud gwahaniaeth os oes gennym elfennau elitaidd yn y sector. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno â hynny? Credaf ei fod yn dderbyniol i gael prifysgolion ag arbenigeddau gwahanol, ond yng Nghymru nid ydym am i rai prifysgolion gael eu hystyried yn rhai gwell nag eraill yn yr hirdymor. O gofio iddi ddweud bod strategaeth Charles Clarke yn cyfateb yn sylweddol â’i strategaeth hi, hoffwn glywed ymateb y Gweinidog i hynny.

No-one would do other than welcome the establishment of an arts and humanities research council; it is a positive step forward. Have the Minister and her officials discussed how that council will work? What impact will the Government of Wales have on its development in the longer term? There are issues about how the existing councils work and, as this is a fresh initiative, there may be an opportunity to address those issues before they become problems.

Ni fyddai neb yn gwneud llai na chroesawu’r gwaith o sefydlu cyngor ymchwil y celfyddydau a’r dyniaethau; mae’n gam cadarnhaol ymlaen. A yw’r Gweinidog a’i swyddogion wedi trafod sut y bydd y cyngor hwnnw yn gweithio? Pa effaith a gaiff Llywodraeth Cymru ar ei ddatblygiad yn y tymor hwy? Mae materion ynghylch y modd y mae’r cynghorau presennol yn gweithio a, chan fod hon yn fenter newydd, efallai y bydd cyfle i ymdrin â’r materion hynny cyn iddynt droi yn broblemau.

Apparently Charles Clarke will create what is called an ‘access regulator’ for England. I presume that is being created for England, because it was not clear whether it was for England or for England and Wales. We share the Minister’s commitment to bringing more people from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds into higher education. However, I am not sure that an access regulator and additional bureaucracy for higher education is the best way to achieve that. Will the Minister clarify whether we will have an access regulator for Wales, or one for England and Wales, as that was not clear from Charles Clarke’s remarks? If we are not going to have one—and I hope that we will not—then could the Minister tell us what measures she and her officials are taking to ensure that institutions in Wales are addressing the access agenda? I know that she is committed to that agenda.

Yn ôl pob tebyg, bydd Charles Clarke yn creu yr hyn a elwir yn ‘rheolydd mynediad’ i Loegr. Cymeraf ei fod yn cael ei greu ar gyfer Lloegr, oherwydd nid oedd yn glir a oedd ar gyfer Lloegr neu ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr. Rhannwn ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i ddenu mwy o bobl o gefndiroedd tlawd a difreintiedig i addysg uwch. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn siŵr ai rheolydd mynediad a biwrocratiaeth ychwanegol ar gyfer addysg uwch yw’r ffordd orau o gyflawni hynny. A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro a gawn ni reolydd mynediad i Gymru, neu un ar gyfer Lloegr a Chymru, gan nad oedd hynny’n glir o sylwadau Charles Clarke? Os na chawn un—a gobeithio na chawn—yna a allai’r Gweinidog ddweud wrthym pa gamau y mae hi a’i swyddogion yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod sefydliadau yng Nghymru yn ymdrin â’r agenda mynediad? Gwn ei bod yn ymrwymedig i’r agenda honno.

I am glad to hear that the Minister believes that the Assembly should have the power to take decisions on student support. Charles Clarke said that there are serious pros and cons in devolving responsibility for this matter to the Assembly. Can the Minister elaborate on what those pros and cons are? It seems that she may need support from us to strengthen her hand in dealing with Mr Clarke. Will she tell us when those discussions are likely to conclude? If legislation is to result from this White Paper, we will presumably want to take advantage of that opportunity. Finally, having listened to Charles Clarke today, my response was ‘Come back Estelle Morris, all is forgiven’. I would be grateful for the Minister’s response to my points.

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod y Gweinidog yn credu y dylai’r Cynulliad gael y pŵer i wneud penderfyniadau ar gymorth i fyfyrwyr. Dywedodd Charles Clarke fod manteision ac anfanteision sylweddol wrth ddatganoli cyfrifoldeb dros y mater hwn i’r Cynulliad. A all y Gweinidog ymhelaethu ar y manteision a’r anfanteision hynny? Ymddengys efallai y bydd angen ein cefnogaeth arni er mwyn iddi gryfhau ei dadl wrth ddelio â Mr Clarke. A ddywed wrthym pryd y disgwylir i’r trafodaethau hynny ddod i ben? Os bydd deddfwriaeth yn deillio o’r Papur Gwyn hwn, mae’n siŵr y byddwn am fanteisio ar y cyfle hwnnw. I gloi, ar ôl gwrando ar Charles Clarke heddiw, fy ymateb oedd ‘Dewch yn ôl Estelle Morris, maddeuwn bopeth’. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar am ymateb y Gweinidog i’m pwyntiau.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 51

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

You have missed the fundamental point of the statement and Charles Clarke’s speech. Charles Clarke spoke on the future of higher education in England. In my statement to the Assembly, I have made clear what issues will affect Wales. The only aspect that is not devolved to us is student support. Therefore, it is legitimate to ask an Assembly Minister about that issue; however, the other issues are matters for England.

Yr ydych wedi methu pwynt sylfaenol y datganiad ac araith Charles Clarke. Soniodd Charles Clarke am ddyfodol addysg uwch yn Lloegr. Yn fy natganiad i’r Cynulliad, eglurais pa faterion a fydd yn effeithio ar Gymru. Yr unig agwedd na chaiff ei datganoli i ni yw cymorth i fyfyrwyr. Felly, mae’n iawn holi Gweinidog y Cynulliad am y mater hwnnw; fodd bynnag, mae’r materion eraill yn faterion ar gyfer Lloegr.

Higher education operates in a global environment. I keep abreast of changes that are made in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland in order to ensure that we in Wales deliver the best quality of higher education. This Assembly Government has consistently increased investment in higher education. There will be a dramatic 20 per cent increase in funding between 2003 and 2006.

Gweithreda addysg uwch mewn amgylchedd byd-eang. Dilynaf y newidiadau a wneir yn Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni yng Nghymru yn cyflawni’r ansawdd gorau o ran addysg uwch. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cynyddu buddsoddiad mewn addysg uwch yn gyson. Bydd cynnydd dramatig o 20 y cant mewn arian rhwng 2003 a 2006.

In my statement—to which Helen Mary was obviously too busy to listen—I said that we should acknowledge the importance of each institution developing its chosen mission, whether that be research, teaching or knowledge transfer. Both the Committee and I believe strongly in that.

Yn fy natganiad—yr oedd Helen Mary yn amlwg yn rhy brysur i wrando arno—dywedais y dylem gydnabod pwysigrwydd caniatáu i bob sefydliad ddatblygu ei genhadaeth ddewisol, boed hynny’n ymchwil, yn addysgu neu’n drosglwyddo gwybodaeth. Cred y Pwyllgor a minnau yn gryf yn hynny.

Sue Essex, in concluding her statement today, said that she wanted the powers and sufficient funding to accompany them. That is the key issue. Unlike Plaid Cymru members, who want powers at all costs, whether or not that might adversely affect Welsh students, I would not seek additional powers unless we were absolutely sure that the settlement would be beneficial to Wales.

Dywedodd Sue Essex, wrth gloi ei datganiad heddiw, ei bod am gael y pwerau a digon o arian i gyd-fynd â hwy. Dyna’r mater allweddol. Yn wahanol i aelodau Plaid Cymru, sydd am gael pwerau ar bob cyfrif, pa bai hynny’n effeithio’n andwyol ar fyfyrwyr Cymru ai peidio, ni fyddwn yn ceisio pwerau ychwanegol oni fyddem yn hollol siŵr y byddai’r setliad yn fuddiol i Gymru.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 52

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

In contrast to Helen Mary Jones, who was obviously interested in the constitutional niceties of this statement and left the issues of social justice and tackling social exclusion to the end of her contribution, access and social exclusion will be the priority in my contribution. I welcome the information on tuition fees. Even though many people from lower-income families were not directly affected by it, it was a major disincentive, as the Rees report informed us, to children from disadvantaged backgrounds going on to higher education. Although you are leading on this issue as the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, it also carries over into the health portfolio, particularly considering the dramatic increase in the number of students in health, medical education, nursing and so on. There is good practice on improving access in Wales, especially in the University Hospital of Wales medical school, which has improved access from certain communities near Cardiff. It is important that this good practice be extended across Wales. Good progress has been made in Swansea on graduate access to the medical school—and we will shortly have that in north Wales. Will you work with the Minister for Health and Social Services to ensure that the key principles of access extend across the educational spectrum, and do not just relate to those matters strictly associated with your portfolio?

Yn wahanol i Helen Mary Jones, a oedd yn amlwg â diddordeb ym manylion cyfansoddiadol y datganiad hwn ac a adawodd faterion cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a mynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol tan ddiwedd ei chyfraniad, mynediad ac allgáu cymdeithasol yw’r flaenoriaeth yn fy natganiad i. Croesawaf y wybodaeth am ffioedd dysgu. Er nad effeithiodd yn uniongyrchol ar lawer o bobl o deuluoedd incwm is, yr oedd yn wrthanogaeth mawr, fel y nodwyd yn adroddiad Rees, i blant o gefndiroedd difreintiedig fynd ymlaen i gael addysg uwch. Er eich bod yn arwain ar y mater hwn fel y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, mae hefyd yn berthnasol i’r portffolio iechyd, yn enwedig o gofio’r cynnydd dramatig yn nifer y myfyrwyr ym meysydd iechyd, addysg feddygol, nyrsio ac ati. Mae arfer da o ran gwella mynediad yng Nghymru, yn enwedig yn ysgol feddygol Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru, sydd wedi gwella mynediad o rai cymunedau penodol ger Caerdydd. Mae’n bwysig ymestyn yr arfer da hwn ledled Cymru. Gwnaed cynnydd da ar fynediad i raddedigion i’r ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe—a bydd hynny gennym yn fuan yn y Gogledd. A wnewch chi weithio gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i sicrhau bod egwyddorion allweddol mynediad yn ymestyn ar draws y sbectrwm addysgol, ac nad ydynt yn ymwneud â’r materion hynny a gysylltir â’ch portffolio chi yn unig?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 52

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

The Assembly Government has focused on offering opportunities to non-traditional participants in education. I want to ensure that the same opportunities are offered to those who want to enter the health profession as any other profession. Therefore, access issues are important. There are exciting proposals for the expansion of medical education across Wales, on which Jane Hutt and I have worked closely. We continue to work closely on the proposed merger between Cardiff University and the University of Wales College of Medicine to ensure all-Wales access to medical education. The important point is that, to encourage all those who come from low-income families and could benefit from higher education to enter higher education, we must create attractive opportunities. We must ensure that those on the lowest incomes are not out of pocket at the start. I am delighted that the firm resolutions of the Rees report, produced two years ago, have clearly influenced Charles Clarke’s announcement today. He came up with exactly the same proposals. Consider all the evidence presented by students and others before the Rees group on how to improve their quality of life by accepting the need to fund higher education effectively. We therefore want to continue on the basis of the premise that, in Wales, we encourage those from our lowest-income communities into higher education. These proposals ensure equality of outcome. Graduates will have the benefit of the experience and the education and, when they are in a better financial position—and the threshold for repayment has been raised from £10,000 to £15,000 in these proposals—only then will they begin repayment. This is a social justice agenda, focusing on access.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi canolbwyntio ar gynnig cyfleoedd i gyfranogwyr anhraddodiadol addysg. Yr wyf am sicrhau y cynigir yr un cyfleoedd i’r rheini sydd am ymuno â’r proffesiwn iechyd ag a gynigir i unrhyw broffesiwn arall. Felly, mae materion mynediad yn bwysig. Mae cynigion cyffrous ar gyfer ehangu addysg feddygol ledled Cymru, ac mae Jane Hutt a minnau wedi cydweithio’n agos ar hyn. Parhawn i gydweithio’n agos ar y bwriad i uno Prifysgol Caerdydd a Choleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru i sicrhau bod gan Gymru gyfan fynediad i addysg feddygol. Y pwynt pwysig yw bod yn rhaid inni greu cyfleoedd atyniadol er mwyn annog pawb sy’n dod o deuluoedd incwm isel ac a allai elwa ar addysg uwch i fynd ymlaen i addysg uwch. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad yw’r rheini sydd ar yr incwm isaf yn brin o arian o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Yr wyf yn falch fod penderfyniadau cadarn adroddiad Rees, a gynhyrchwyd dwy flynedd yn ôl, wedi dylanwadu’n amlwg ar gyhoeddiad Charles Clarke heddiw. Cyflwynodd yr union un cynigion. Ystyriwch yr holl dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd gan fyfyrwyr ac eraill gerbron grŵp Rees ar sut i wella ansawdd eu bywydau drwy dderbyn yr angen i ariannu addysg uwch yn effeithiol. Felly yr ydym am barhau ar y cynsail ein bod, yng Nghymru, yn annog y rheini o’n cymunedau incwm isaf i fynd ymlaen i addysg uwch. Mae’r cynigion hyn yn sicrhau canlyniad cyfartal. Bydd graddedigion yn elwa ar y profiad a’r addysg a, phan fyddant mewn sefyllfa ariannol well—a chodwyd y trothwy ar gyfer ad-dalu o £10,000 i £15,000 yn y cynigion hyn—dim ond wedyn y byddant yn dechrau ad-dalu. Dyma agenda cyfiawnder cymdeithasol sy’n canolbwyntio ar fynediad.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 53

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

This statement raises more questions than it provides answers. I congratulate the Government on its terminology. I am sure that students will be delighted to learn that they will pay an end-loaded, income-contingent, graduate endowment contribution. Perhaps, to simplify that for Members, we can call it a tax. Yesterday’s confusion and leaks from Government departments—we do not know whether they were from Cardiff, from the Wales Office or the Department for Education and Skills—was incredibly damaging. It raised the hopes of students in Wales that something different could occur in Wales in one second and dashed them the next.

Mae’r datganiad hwn yn codi mwy o gwestiynau nag yw’n rhoi atebion. Hoffwn longyfarch y Llywodraeth ar ei therminoleg. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd myfyrwyr yn falch iawn o glywed y byddant yn talu cyfraniad gwaddol graddedigion yn amodol ar incwm ar ddiwedd eu cwrs. Efallai, er mwyn symleiddio hynny i’r Aelodau, gallwn ei alw yn dreth. Yr oedd dryswch ddoe a’r sibrydion i’r wasg o adrannau’r Llywodraeth—ni wyddom a ddaethant o Gaerdydd, o Swyddfa Cymru neu’r Adran Addysg a Sgiliau—yn eithriadol o niweidiol. Cododd obeithion myfyrwyr yng Nghymru y gallai rhywbeth gwahanol ddigwydd yng Nghymru un eiliad gan chwalu’r gobeithion hynny yr eiliad nesaf.

As an Assembly Member, I was deeply disappointed that the Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain, chose to do his second job in Brussels yesterday, when we could have done with him here, sorting out the problem between Government departments in Cardiff and Westminster. What is the point of having a Secretary of State for Wales if, when he is needed, he disappears to do his second job as Minister for Europe in Brussels? The Labour Party has let down the people of Wales in more ways than one in that regard.

Fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, yr oeddwn yn siomedig iawn bod Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Peter Hain, wedi dewis gwneud ei ail swydd ym Mrwsel ddoe, pan fyddai wedi bod yn well i ni ei gael ef yma, yn datrys y broblem rhwng adrannau’r Llywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd a San Steffan. Beth yw diben cael Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru os bydd yn diflannu, pan fydd ei angen, i wneud ei ail swydd fel Gweinidog dros Ewrop ym Mrwsel? Mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi siomi pobl Cymru mewn mwy nag un ffordd yn hynny o beth.

Everybody was expecting some great announcement as a result of yesterday’s leaks, but Charles Clarke only made a vague reference to Wales. That resonated with the people of Wales and with Members here.

Yr oedd pawb yn disgwyl rhyw gyhoeddiad mawr o ganlyniad i sibrydion ddoe, ond dim ond cyfeiriad amwys a wnaeth Charles Clarke at Gymru. Yr oedd hynny’n canu cloch gyda phobl Cymru a’r Aelodau yma.

May I remind the Minister of her party’s promises in 1997? The Labour Party said that it would not introduce tuition fees, yet it did. It said, in 2001, that it would not introduce top-up fees—in fact, Charles Clarke is quoted as saying that he does not like top-up fees—yet your party, Minister, has now signed up to them. Your party has broken its promises on student finance since it was elected to office in 1997.

Hoffwn atgoffa’r Gweinidog o addewidion ei phlaid yn 1997? Dywedodd y Blaid Lafur na fyddai’n cyflwyno ffioedd dysgu, ac eto fe wnaeth. Dywedodd, yn 2001, na fyddai’n cyflwyno ffioedd ychwanegol—yn wir, cafodd Charles Clarke ei ddyfynnu yn dweud nad yw’n hoffi ffioedd ychwanegol—ac eto mae eich plaid, Weinidog, bellach wedi ymrwymo iddynt. Mae eich plaid wedi torri ei haddewidion ar gyllid myfyrwyr ers iddi ddod i rym yn 1997.

Several questions arise from both your statement and Charles Clarke’s statement at Westminster. First, in terms of top-up fees, can you confirm that the 21,000 Welsh students who choose to study outside Wales will be forced to pay university top-up fees? Can you also confirm that there will be problems for the 28,000 non-Welsh students who choose to cross the border and study in Wales, particularly if your Government gets the power to introduce top-up fees and decides not to do so? A substantial number of young people could then choose to study in Wales simply because it is the cheaper option. If the power to decide on top-up fees is devolved to Wales and you decide not to proceed with them, will you confirm that there will be a funding gap for universities in Wales, which will not be able to charge top-up fees, compared with those in England, which will? How would you plug that gap? Welsh students who choose to study elsewhere in the United Kingdom should be supported in that; I do not like the idea of students being forced to stay at home: we want them to broaden their horizons. Can you confirm that, for those students, top-up fees will be paid up-front, to the tune of some £3,000 per academic year, in excess of the present up-front tuition fees levied at around £1,125?

Cyfyd sawl cwestiwn o’ch datganiad ac o ddatganiad Charles Clarke yn San Steffan. Yn gyntaf, o ran ffioedd ychwanegol, a allwch gadarnhau y caiff y 21,000 o fyfyrwyr o Gymru sy’n dewis astudio y tu allan i Gymru eu gorfodi i dalu ffioedd prifysgol ychwanegol? A allwch gadarnhau hefyd a fydd problemau i’r 28,000 o fyfyrwyr nad ydynt o Gymru sy’n dewis croesi’r ffin ac astudio yng Nghymru, yn enwedig os caiff eich Llywodraeth y pŵer i gyflwyno ffioedd ychwanegol ond yn penderfynu peidio â gwneud hynny? Gallai nifer sylweddol o bobl ifanc ddewis astudio yng Nghymru wedyn yn syml gan mai dyma’r opsiwn rhatach. Os datganolir y pŵer i benderfynu ar ffioedd ychwanegol i Gymru, ac y penderfynwch beidio â bwrw ymlaen â hwy, a gadarnhewch y bydd bwlch ariannu ar gyfer prifysgolion yng Nghymru, na fyddant yn gallu codi ffioedd ychwanegol, o’u cymharu â’r rhai yn Lloegr a fydd yn gallu gwneud hynny? Sut y byddech yn llenwi’r bwlch hwnnw? Dylid cefnogi myfyrwyr o Gymru sy’n dewis astudio rywle arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn hynny o beth; nid wyf yn hoffi’r syniad o fyfyrwyr yn cael eu gorfodi i aros gartref: yr ydym am iddynt ehangu eu gorwelion. A allwch gadarnhau y caiff ffioedd ychwanegol eu talu ymlaen llaw i’r myfyrwyr hynny, sef tua £3,000 fesul blwyddyn academaidd, yn ychwanegol at y ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw o tua £1,125 a godir ar hyn o bryd?

Will you also comment on the impact of today’s announced changes? Perhaps you could confirm—as Charles Clarke said this afternoon in the House of Commons—that this could potentially lead to an increase in student debt and thus create a disincentive to students? If a disincentive results from today’s changes, which students do you think will be deterred from entering higher education, and what will the financial impact on students be? Some reports have estimated that the potential debt to be around £21,000 per student. When I was elected to this institution in 1999, I said that we were creeping towards an Australian model of higher education: students there leave with debts between £15,000 and £20,000. Members of the Labour Party shouted me down for scaremongering. I am afraid that I have been proved right: it is a disgrace that students should leave university in so much debt.

A wnewch chi sylw hefyd ar effaith y newidiadau a gyhoeddwyd heddiw? Efallai y gallech gadarnhau—fel y dywedodd Charles Clarke y prynhawn yma yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin—y gallai hyn o bosibl arwain at gynnydd mewn dyledion myfyrwyr gan greu gwrthanogaeth i fyfyrwyr? Os bydd gwrthanogaeth yn deillio o newidiadau heddiw, pa fyfyrwyr fydd yn penderfynu peidio â mynd ymlaen i addysg uwch yn eich barn chi, a beth fydd yr effaith ariannol ar fyfyrwyr? Mae rhai adroddiadau wedi amcangyfrif y bydd y ddyled bosibl oddeutu £21,000 fesul myfyriwr. Pan gefais fy ethol i’r sefydliad hwn yn 1999, dywedais ein bod yn llithro tuag at enghraifft Awstralia o addysg uwch: mae myfyrwyr yn gadael yno gyda dyledion rhwng £15,000 ac £20,000. Gweiddodd aelodau o’r Blaid Lafur ar fy nhraws am godi bwganod. Ofnaf imi gael fy mhrofi’n iawn: mae’n gywilyddus bod myfyrwyr yn gadael prifysgol gyda dyledion o’r fath.

Charles Clarke said that the access regulator would work with the Higher Education Funding Council for England. Will you confirm that you intend to introduce a similar access regulator to work with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales? The access regulator in England will affect Welsh students regardless, because of those 21,000 who choose to study outside Wales. If they are to access higher education in England, they will be judged according to some arbitrary criteria. Those criteria—which the Minister may wish to comment upon—include assessing the education that students’ parents received. Whether or not young people enter university education in England will depend on whether their parents had that opportunity when they were young. That is an astonishing state of affairs.

Dywedodd Charles Clarke y byddai’r rheolydd mynediad yn cydweithio â Chyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Lloegr. A gadarnhewch y bwriadwch gyflwyno rheolydd mynediad tebyg i gydweithio â Chyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru? Bydd y rheolydd mynediad yn Lloegr yn effeithio ar fyfyrwyr Cymru waeth beth fydd yn digwydd, oherwydd y 21,000 o fyfyrwyr sy’n dewis astudio y tu allan i Gymru. Er mwyn iddynt gael mynediad i addysg uwch yn Lloegr, cânt eu barnu yn ôl rhyw feini prawf mympwyol. Mae’r meini prawf hynny—yr hoffai’r Gweinidog wneud sylw arnynt efallai—yn cynnwys asesu’r addysg a gafodd rhieni myfyrwyr. Bydd pa un a fydd pobl ifanc yn mynd ymlaen i addysg prifysgol yn Lloegr yn dibynnu ar pa un a gafodd eu rhieni y cyfle hwnnw pan oeddent yn ifanc. Mae hynny’n sefyllfa ryfeddol.

In conclusion, Minister, your party has put more students in more debt. Your party is taxing the young talent of our nation and can no longer look students in the eye, because of its failure to keep its promises. You and your colleagues in Westminster have let many young people down.

I gloi, Weinidog, mae eich plaid wedi rhoi mwy o fyfyrwyr mewn dyled. Mae eich plaid yn trethu talent ifanc ein cenedl ac ni all edrych ym myw llygaid myfyrwyr, gan ei bod wedi methu â chadw ei haddewidion. Yr ydych chi a’ch cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan wedi siomi llawer o bobl ifanc.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 56

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

When you have finished posturing and re-read what you have said today, once you have had the chance to read the document properly, you will find that you are incorrect. I will pick up on three of your themes. First, you unfairly condemned the terminology used by the independent group on student hardship. I used that terminology in my statement because it reflected the conclusion of that extremely effective group, which made it clear that the Government should consider repayment after receipt of education. We supported, and continue to support, that principle. Secondly, I reject any suggestion that there have been problems between London and Cardiff. Ironically, while there has been massive speculation over the last few weeks, I have been quietly confident that my statement today would reflect the deep understanding and dialogue between Charles Clarke and me in terms of ensuring that the powers for us to deliver our agenda in Wales are now under consideration for transfer. I understand your opposition to that because you do not want additional powers for Wales. This is a triumph of devolution as it shows that we can work together, determine the right powers for Wales, and hold the right dialogue with the UK Government—

Pan fyddwch wedi gorffen ymagweddu ac wedi ailddarllen yr hyn a ddywedasoch heddiw, ar ôl ichi gael y cyfle i ddarllen y ddogfen yn iawn, fe welwch eich bod yn anghywir. Ymhelaethaf ar dair o’ch themâu. Yn gyntaf, condemniwyd y derminoleg a ddefnyddiwyd gan y grŵp annibynnol ar galedi myfyrwyr gennych yn annheg. Defnyddiais y derminoleg honno yn fy natganiad gan ei bod yn adlewyrchu casgliad y grŵp hynod o effeithiol hwnnw, a eglurodd y dylai’r Llywodraeth ystyried ad-dalu ar ôl derbyn addysg. Gwnaethom gefnogi, a pharhawn i gefnogi’r egwyddor honno. Yn ail, gwrthodaf unrhyw awgrym y bu problemau rhwng Llundain a Chaerdydd. Yn eironig, er y bu cryn ddyfalu dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, bûm yn dawel hyderus y byddai fy natganiad heddiw yn adlewyrchu’r ddealltwriaeth ddofn a’r deialog rhwng Charles Clarke a minnau o ran sicrhau bod y pwerau inni gyflwyno ein hagenda yng Nghymru bellach yn cael eu hystyried i’w trosglwyddo. Deallaf eich gwrthwynebiad i hynny oherwydd nid ydych am gael pwerau ychwanegol i Gymru. Mae hon yn fuddugoliaeth i ddatganoli gan ei bod yn dangos y gallwn gydweithio, y gallwn benderfynu ar y pwerau cywir i Gymru, ac y gallwn gynnal y deialog cywir gyda Llywodraeth y DU—

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 56

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Answer the questions.

Atebwch y cwestiynau.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 56

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I am answering the questions—[Interruption.]

Yr wyf yn ateb y cwestiynau—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Order. Will Members of all groups, especially those who are now baying as they have done in response to previous statements, allow the Minister to conclude her statement in good time.

Trefn. A wnaiff Aelodau pob grŵp, yn enwedig y rheini sy’n cyfarth yn awr fel y gwnaethant mewn ymateb i ddatganiadau blaenorol, ganiatáu i’r Gweinidog ddod â’i datganiad i ben mewn da bryd.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 57

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

The important point is that no top-up fees will be introduced up-front; they will be added to the income-contingent contribution. That is Charles Clarke’s approach and was clear in his statement. The access regulator’s role will be to ensure that those universities that are permitted to charge top-up fees show themselves to have clear strategies to encourage people from low-income communities to become students and have bursary and other opportunities available. The problems of parents who have not benefited from higher education will be considered; that will widen access. These proposals will not come through in legislation until 2006. If I am still Minister at that time, I will argue to ensure that Welsh higher education institutions, which have tremendous strengths, are not in any way disadvantaged by the new system.

Y pwynt pwysig yw na chaiff unrhyw ffioedd ychwanegol eu cyflwyno ymlaen llaw; cânt eu hychwanegu at y cyfraniad yn amodol ar incwm. Dyna ymagwedd Charles Clarke ac yr oedd yn glir yn ei ddatganiad. Rôl y rheolydd mynediad fydd sicrhau bod y prifysgolion hynny y caniateir iddynt godi ffioedd ychwanegol yn dangos bod ganddynt strategaethau clir i annog pobl o gymunedau incwm isel i ddod yn fyfyrwyr ac i sicrhau bod bwrsariaethau a chyfleoedd eraill ar gael. Rhoddir ystyriaeth i broblemau rhieni nad ydynt wedi elwa ar addysg uwch; bydd hynny’n ehangu mynediad. Ni ddaw’r cynigion hyn drwodd mewn deddfwriaeth tan 2006. Os byddaf yn parhau i fod yn Weinidog bryd hynny, byddaf yn dadlau i sicrhau na fydd y system newydd mewn unrhyw ffordd yn anfanteisiol i sefydliadau addysg uwch Cymru, sydd â chryfderau aruthrol.

To finish, we are keen for students to make Wales their first choice for education, but the way in which we have introduced the Assembly learning grant makes it clear that we do not want to curb anyone’s ambition to be educated elsewhere, whether that be within or outside the UK. That is why Assembly learning grants are available to students from Wales wherever they study. You are deliberately trying to frighten students in Wales by suggesting that they will have less choice. I am expanding opportunities for students in Wales and will continue to do so.

I gloi, yr ydym yn awyddus i fyfyrwyr ddewis Cymru fel dewis cyntaf ar gyfer eu haddysg, ond mae’r ffordd y cyflwynasom grant dysgu’r Cynulliad yn egluro nad ydym am ffrwyno uchelgais unrhyw un sydd am gael ei addysgu yn rhywle arall, boed hynny o fewn y DU neu’r tu allan. Dyna pam bod grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad ar gael i fyfyrwyr o Gymru ble bynnag y maent yn astudio. Yr ydych yn fwriadol yn ceisio codi ofn ar fyfyrwyr yng Nghymru drwy awgrymu y bydd llai o ddewis ganddynt. Yr wyf yn ehangu’r cyfleoedd i fyfyrwyr yng Nghymru a pharhaf i wneud hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 57

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

There are only three minutes remaining for contributions on this statement.

Dim ond tair munud sy’n weddill ar gyfer cyfraniadau ar y datganiad hwn.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 57

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome the Minister’s continued commitment to excellent teaching and widening access, but it is getting there that matters. We all know that a higher education strategy is at the heart of securing a prosperous future for Wales. Higher education is one of the most important investments for our future. However, from the statement today—and we still need much more detail about the proposals—it seems to me that the balance is moving towards the student paying for higher education. Do you accept that student debt will increase and, furthermore, that it will be a heavier burden for women, who already earn 38 per cent less than men? Despite the leaks, we still do not know how we in Wales will arrive at decisions for ourselves. When we ask for powers, we must ensure that we have the money to fund our decisions. Will the Minister indicate how much money we will need to fund the higher education system? We appear to be moving towards a two-tier system. Does the Minister accept that university education is increasingly for the rich, not for the talented?

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu ymrwymiad parhaus y Gweinidog i addysgu rhagorol ac ehangu mynediad, ond cyflawni hynny sy’n bwysig. Gŵyr pob un ohonom mai strategaeth addysg uwch sydd wrth wraidd sicrhau dyfodol ffyniannus i Gymru. Addysg uwch yw un o’r buddsoddiadau pwysicaf ar gyfer ein dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, o’r datganiad heddiw—ac mae angen llawer mwy o fanylion arnom o hyd ynghylch y cynigion—ymddengys i mi fod y cydbwysedd yn symud tuag at y myfyriwr yn talu am addysg uwch. A dderbyniwch y bydd dyledion myfyrwyr yn cynyddu ac, at hynny, y bydd baich trymach ar ferched, sydd eisoes yn ennill 38 y cant yn llai na dynion? Er gwaethaf y sibrydion i’r wasg, ni wyddom o hyd sut y byddwn ni yng Nghymru yn gwneud penderfyniadau drosom ni ein hunain. Pan ofynnwn am bwerau, rhaid inni sicrhau bod gennym yr arian i ariannu ein penderfyniadau. A wnaiff y Gweinidog nodi faint o arian fydd ei angen arnom i ariannu’r system addysg uwch? Ymddengys ein bod yn symud tuag at system ddwy haen. A yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn bod addysg prifysgol yn gynyddol ar gyfer y cyfoethog ac nid ar gyfer y talentog?

I am pleased that you reject the 50 per cent UK target, although you did not do so last week, when I asked you to. The Welsh Liberal Democrats support your commitment. However, it should be recognised that the issue of Wales only emerged in Parliament today because a Liberal Democrat education spokesperson in Westminster asked what would happen in Wales. We are a co-ordinated party, and know what we are doing. Let us have an answer as to how we will get these powers, and how we will pay for them.

Yr wyf yn falch ichi wrthod targed y DU o 50 y cant, er na wnaethoch hynny yr wythnos diwethaf, pan ofynnais ichi. Cefnoga Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru eich ymrwymiad. Fodd bynnag, dylid cydnabod mai dim ond am fod llefarydd addysg dros y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi gofyn yn San Steffan beth fyddai’n digwydd yng Nghymru y daeth mater Cymru i’r amlwg yn y Senedd heddiw. Yr ydym yn blaid gydgysylltiedig, a gwyddom beth a wnawn. Gadewch inni gael ateb i’r modd y cawn y pwerau hyn, a’r modd y talwn amdanynt.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 58

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Issues concerning Wales were not in the statement because it was a statement on the strategy for England. It is important that Members realise that. Charles Clarke said that in his statement. The examples used in the statement were from England, working with the Higher Education Funding Council for England was referred to, and the focus throughout the statement was on issues for England. There are only a few points in the strategy which do not relate to England alone: for example, where it says that what will be done in terms of UK research has implications, not only for England, but also for the devolved administrations and that, therefore, they will be properly discussed with those administrations.

Nid oedd materion a oedd yn ymwneud â Chymru yn y datganiad gan mai datganiad ar y strategaeth ar gyfer Lloegr ydoedd. Mae’n bwysig bod yr Aelodau yn sylweddoli hynny. Dywedodd Charles Clarke hynny yn ei ddatganiad. Yr oedd yr enghreifftiau a ddefnyddiwyd yn y datganiad yn dod o Loegr, cyfeiriwyd at weithio gyda Chyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Lloegr, ac yr oedd y canolbwynt drwy gydol y datganiad ar faterion i Loegr. Dim ond rhai pwyntiau sydd yn y strategaeth nad ydynt yn ymwneud â Lloegr yn unig: er enghraifft, lle y dywed bod goblygiadau i’r hyn a wneir o ran ymchwil y DU, nid yn unig i Loegr, ond hefyd i’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig ac felly, y cânt eu trafod yn briodol gyda’r gweinyddiaethau hynny.

Student support is also an issue for us because we are currently tied in to the same mechanisms. We will have a full debate on this in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee at the end of February, when an entire meeting will be given over to considering higher education issues. I agree with your point, Mick, about power and pounds. We want to ensure that we have the right settlement for Wales. We must ensure that, if we are given powers in Wales, that will benefit us. I am keen to obtain powers for Wales to help us deliver our agenda, but I do not, in any way, support powers being brought to Wales in a vacuum. If Charles Clarke and I can be reassured that we can do this properly, in the best interests of Wales, of the UK Government, and of students as a whole, then we will effect this transfer of power. However, much work must be done before we reach that point.

Mae cymorth i fyfyrwyr yn broblem i ni hefyd gan ein bod ar hyn o bryd ynghlwm wrth yr un dulliau gwaith. Cawn ddadl lawn ar hyn yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar ddiwedd Chwefror, pan neilltuir cyfarfod cyfan i ystyried materion addysg uwch. Cytunaf â’ch pwynt, Mick, ynghylch pŵer a phunnoedd. Yr ydym am sicrhau y cawn y setliad cywir i Gymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau, os rhoddir pwerau i ni yng Nghymru, y byddwn yn elwa arnynt. Yr wyf yn awyddus i gael pwerau i Gymru i’n helpu i gyflwyno ein hagenda, ond nid wyf mewn unrhyw ffordd o blaid rhoi pwerau i Gymru mewn gwactod. Os gellir rhoi sicrwydd i Charles Clarke a minnau y gallwn wneud hyn yn gywir, er budd gorau Cymru, Llywodraeth y DU, a myfyrwyr yn gyffredinol, yna gweithredwn y broses ar gyfer trosglwyddo’r pŵer hwn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid gwneud llawer o waith cyn inni gyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw.

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 14) (Cymru) 2002

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 14) (Wales) 2002

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 59

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I am reluctant to impose time limits for debates on special grant reports, but, in view of the important business that is to follow, I appeal for brevity.

Yr wyf yn amharod i osod terfynau amser ar gyfer dadleuon ar adroddiadau grant arbennig, ond, o gofio’r busnes pwysig sydd i ddilyn, apeliaf arnoch i fod yn gryno.

William Graham spoken in English p. 59

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

The Welsh Conservatives acknowledge that local authorities have a responsibility to provide services for children in need within their areas and that, if an unaccompanied asylum-seeking child falls within that definition, then a local authority would have the same duty towards that child as to any other: a clear duty to provide accommodation. It must be a place of safety, adequately vetted by qualified personnel. The money is specified and paid to qualifying authorities, in respect of expenditure already incurred by authorities in exercising these duties. It is right that authorities in Wales be given the payments outlined in the special grant report, as the financial burden should not be borne by local ratepayers. Last November, when we agreed the payment for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children in 2001-02, the Minister reported that the numbers of such children in Wales were steadily increasing. The number almost quadrupled between 1999-2000 and 2001-02. Minister, how many children are we to pay for? Caring for these children has wider implications for local authorities and councillors with regard to the responsibilities arising from the Children Act 1989 and corporate parenting. Will the Minister clarify this? Furthermore, aspects of the Government’s asylum policy are increasingly affecting Wales. I ask the Minister to make representations to the Home Office that we will not hide behind crown immunity and select unsuitable sites for accommodation, such as that identified at Langstone.

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cydnabod bod gan awdurdodau lleol gyfrifoldeb i ddarparu gwasanaethau i blant mewn angen o fewn eu hardaloedd ac, os bydd plentyn ar ei ben ei hun sy’n ceisio lloches yn dod o fewn y diffiniad hwnnw, yna byddai gan awdurdod lleol yr un ddyletswydd tuag at y plentyn hwnnw ag y byddai ganddo tuag at unrhyw blentyn arall: dyletswydd bendant i ddarparu llety. Rhaid iddo fod yn lle diogel, wedi ei archwilio’n ddigonol gan bersonél cymwys. Caiff yr arian ei nodi’n benodol a’i dalu i awdurdodau cymwys, mewn perthynas â gwariant a wariwyd eisoes gan awdurdodau wrth ymarfer y dyletswyddau hyn. Mae’n iawn bod awdurdodau yng Nghymru yn cael y taliadau a amlinellwyd yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig, gan na ddylai’r baich ariannol gael ei dalu gan drethdalwyr lleol. Fis Tachwedd diwethaf, pan gytunasom i dalu am blant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches yn 2001-02, dywedodd y Gweinidog fod nifer y plant o’r fath yng Nghymru yn codi’n gyson. Cynyddodd y nifer bron bedair gwaith rhwng 1999-2000 a 2001-02. Weinidog, am faint o blant yr ydym yn mynd i dalu? Mae i ofalu am y plant hyn oblygiadau ehangach i awdurdodau lleol ac i gynghorwyr o ran y cyfrifoldebau sy’n deillio o Ddeddf Plant 1989 a bod yn rhiant corfforaethol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro hyn? At hynny, mae agweddau ar bolisi lloches y Llywodraeth yn effeithio’n gynyddol ar Gymru. Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog gyflwyno sylwadau i’r Swyddfa Gartref yn nodi na chuddiwn y tu ôl i freinryddid y goron a dewis mannau anaddas fel llety, fel y rhai a nodwyd yn Langstone.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 60

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

One of our key responsibilities towards asylum seekers in Wales is our support for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. These children are among the most vulnerable in our communities and, without the support of local authorities, they could become victims of exploitation or abuse. As you said, William, local authorities have a responsibility, under the Children Act 1989, to provide services for children in need in their areas. Most unaccompanied asylum-seeking children fall into the category of children in need. Therefore, local authorities have the same duty to provide services for these children, as for any other child in need in their areas.

Un o’n cyfrifoldebau allweddol tuag at geiswyr lloches yng Nghymru yw rhoi cymorth i blant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches. Mae’r plant hyn ymhlith y rhai mwyaf diamddiffyn yn ein cymunedau a heb gymorth awdurdodau lleol, gallent gael eu camddefnyddio neu eu camdrin. Fel y dywedasoch, William, mae gan awdurdodau lleol gyfrifoldeb, o dan Ddeddf Plant 1989, i ddarparu gwasanaethau i blant mewn angen yn eu hardaloedd hwy. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o blant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches yn syrthio i gategori plant mewn angen. Felly, mae gan awdurdodau lleol yr un ddyletswydd i ddarparu gwasanaethau i’r plant hyn, ag sydd ganddynt i ddarparu gwasanaethau i unrhyw blentyn arall mewn angen yn eu hardaloedd hwy.

Under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, the responsibility for reimbursing local authorities in Wales for supporting unaccompanied asylum-seeking children passed to the Home Office on 8 November 2002. We therefore seek approval of this special grant report to enable the Assembly to reimburse local authorities for supporting these children from 1 April to 7 November 2002.

O dan Ddeddf Cenedligrwydd, Mewnfudiad a Lloches 2002, trosglwyddodd y cyfrifoldeb dros ad-dalu awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru am gynnal plant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches i’r Swyddfa Gartref ar 8 Tachwedd 2002. Felly ceisiwn gymeradwyaeth yr adroddiad grant arbennig hwn i alluogi’r Cynulliad i ad-dalu awdurdodau lleol am gynnal y plant hyn o 1 Ebrill hyd at 7 Tachwedd 2002.

This special grant report concerns provision for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children and does not concern accommodation for asylum seekers in Wales in general. However, I know that Carwyn Jones will be meeting the Minister, Beverley Hughes, to discuss those issues in due course.

Mae a wnelo’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn â darparu ar gyfer plant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches ac nid yw’n ymwneud â llety i geiswyr lloches yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, gwn y bydd Carwyn Jones yn cyfarfod â’r Gweinidog, Beverley Hughes, i drafod y materion hynny maes o law.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 36 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (36)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Rheolau Cynllun Pensiwn Aelodau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

The National Assembly for Wales Members’ Pension Scheme Rules

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer (continued) spoken in English p. 62

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I hope that Members will forgive me for reading the import of the resolution into the record. The resolution reflects changes in primary legislation. As in the case of pension sharing on divorce, it reflects Assembly policy on equality, with the inclusion of partners’ pensions for the first time. It also increases in the death-in-service lump sum from three to four times the salary to maintain the broad similarity between the Members’ pension scheme and the Westminster scheme. The pension scheme rules have been rewritten in a gender-neutral way. This is a non-party matter as it affects all of us as members of the scheme, regardless of our political allegiance. The trustees of the pension scheme, with the involvement of the scheme’s professional advisers, have considered and agreed the proposed changes. The House Committee has also endorsed the proposals. I commend them to Plenary.

Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau yn maddau imi am gofnodi ystyr y penderfyniad. Mae’r penderfyniad yn adlewyrchu newidiadau mewn deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Fel yn achos rhannu pensiynau mewn ysgariad, mae’n adlewyrchu polisi’r Cynulliad ar gydraddoldeb, a chynhwysir pensiynau partneriaid am y tro cyntaf. Mae hefyd yn cynyddu cyfandaliad marwolaeth mewn swydd o dair i bedair gwaith y cyflog i gynnal y tebygrwydd cyffredinol rhwng cynllun pensiwn yr Aelodau a chynllun San Steffan. Ailysgrifennwyd rheolau’r cynllun pensiwn mewn ffordd niwtral o ran rhyw person. Mae hwn yn fater di-blaid gan ei fod yn effeithio ar bob un ohonom fel aelodau o’r cynllun, waeth beth yw ein teyrngarwch gwleidyddol. Mae ymddiredolwyr y cynllun pensiwn, ar y cyd ag ymgynghorwyr proffesiynol y cynllun, wedi ystyried a chytuno ar y newidiadau arfaethedig. Mae Pwyllgor y Tŷ wedi cymeradwyo’r cynigion hefyd. Fe’u cymeradwyaf i’r Cyfarfod Llawn.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.12 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.12 p.m.

Gwahardd Ysmygu mewn Mannau Cyhoeddus

The Prohibition of Smoking in Public Places

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I have a long list of Members who wish to speak and would therefore be grateful, as I think would the whole Assembly, for succinct speeches.

Mae gennyf restr hir o Aelodau sydd am siarad, felly byddwn i, a’r Cynulliad cyfan mi dybiaf, yn ddiolchgar am areithiau cryno.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 63

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I propose the following motion in my name and the names of Kirsty Williams, David Lloyd and David Melding. I propose that

Cynigiaf y cynnig canlynol yn fy enw i, Kirsty Williams, David Lloyd a David Melding. Cynigiaf fod

Alun Pugh (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 64

Alun Pugh (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 64

I am not in favour of a ban on smoking, nor do I condemn smokers. However, this debate is not about smokers. If adults wish to smoke that is entirely a matter for them. This debate concerns protecting the health of Welsh children and the majority of adults in Wales who chose not to smoke.

yn Saesneg Nid wyf o blaid gwaharddiad ar ysmygu, ac nid wyf yn condemnio ysmygwyr. Fodd bynnag, nid dadl ynghylch ysmygwyr yw hon. Os yw oedolion yn dymuno ysmygu yna mater iddynt hwy yn llwyr yw hynny. Mae’r ddadl hon ynglŷn â diogelu iechyd plant Cymru a’r mwyafrif o oedolion yng Nghymru sy’n dewis peidio ag ysmygu.

The evidence is clear: passive smoking kills. A huge body of medical knowledge, painstakingly accumulated in laboratories, hospitals and research institutes around the world, proves conclusively that passive exposure to tobacco smoke kills. It kills adults and it kills children. Environmental tobacco smoke is a complex and lethal cocktail of toxins, irritants and carcinogens, which kill and disable those exposed to it.

yn Saesneg Mae’r dystiolaeth yn eglur: mae ysmygu goddefol yn lladd. Mae corff anferth o wybodaeth feddygol, a grynhowyd yn ofalus mewn labordai, ysbytai a sefydliadau ymchwil ar draws y byd, yn profi’n ddi-os fod amlygiad i fwg goddefol yn lladd. Mae’n lladd oedolion ac mae’n lladd plant. Mae mwg tybaco amgylcheddol yn gyfuniad cymhleth ac angheuol o docsinau, llidwyr a charsinogenau, sy’n lladd ac yn anablu’r rhai sy’n cael eu hamlygu iddo.

For over a decade, convincing scientific evidence to prove that passive smoking causes death and serious injury has been available. During that time, over 10,000 non-smoking adults and children in the UK have been killed as a result of their exposure to other people’s cigarette smoke. Since the Assembly was established, over 3,000 Welsh children have been hospitalised as a result of passive-smoking-induced respiratory diseases. The evidence for legal controls to limit the risks to non-smokers and children is laid out in forensic detail in the issue of the British Medical Association’s science and education board report that I have in my hand. It makes compelling reading for anyone who is interested in the public health debate.

yn Saesneg Ers dros ddegawd, bu tystiolaeth wyddonol gadarn ar gael i brofi bod ysmygu goddefol yn achosi marwolaeth a niwed difrifol. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, cafodd dros 10,000 o oedolion a phlant yn y DU nad oeddent yn ysmygwyr eu lladd o ganlyniad i ddod i gysylltiad â mwg sigarennau pobl eraill. Ers i’r Cynulliad gael ei sefydlu, cafodd dros 3,000 o blant Cymru fynd i ysbytai o ganlyniad i glefydau anadlu a achoswyd gan ysmygu goddefol. Nodir y dystiolaeth dros reolaethau cyfreithiol i gyfyngu’r risgiau i’r rhai nad ydynt yn ysmygwyr a phlant mewn manylder fforensig yn rhifyn adroddiad bwrdd gwyddoniaeth ac addysg Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain sydd yn fy llaw. Mae’n ddeunydd darllen grymus i unrhyw un sydd â diddordeb yn y ddadl ar iechyd cyhoeddus.

Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb i amddiffyn iechyd cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Mae llawer o dystiolaeth ddiymwad bod ysmygu goddefol yn lladd oedolion a phlant. Dylem ddilyn cyngor meddygol a gwahardd ysmygu mewn lleoedd cyhoeddus.

in Welsh The Assembly has a responsibility to protect public health in Wales. There is much indisputable evidence that passive smoking kills adults and children. We should follow medical advice and ban smoking in public places.

Of course, tobacco companies and their paid advocates, such as the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco, will deny the evidence. They were telling lies again in The Western Mail this morning. They spent many years rubbishing professional scientists and doctors before finally conceding that smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke and other fatal diseases. In their hearts, the cigarette companies know that the game is up in Europe and America. They understand that the regulatory environment is tightening. That is why their executives are spending so much time and money encouraging children and young people in the third world to start smoking. This afternoon, we have a free vote on the principle of legal restrictions to control exposure to tobacco smoke in indoor, public places. I ask for your support for a health Bill for Wales to enable the Assembly to make regulations to limit the public’s exposure to tobacco smoke in such places.

yn Saesneg Wrth gwrs, bydd y cwmnïau tybaco a’r pleidwyr a delir ganddynt, megis y Mudiad Rhyddid dros yr Hawl i Fwynhau Ysmygu Tybaco, yn gwadu’r dystiolaeth. Yr oeddent yn dweud celwydd unwaith eto yn The Western Mail y bore yma. Treuliasant sawl blwyddyn yn dilorni gwyddonwyr proffesiynol a meddygon cyn ildio yn y diwedd bod ysmygu yn achosi canser, clefyd y galon, strôc a chlefydau angheuol eraill. Yn eu calonnau mae’r cwmnïau sigarennau yn gwybod ei bod wedi canu arnynt yn Ewrop ac America. Maent yn deall bod yr amgylchedd rheoleiddiol yn tynhau. Dyna pam mae ei swyddogion yn treulio cymaint o amser ac arian yn annog plant a phobl ifanc yn y trydydd byd i ddechrau ysmygu. Y prynhawn yma, mae gennym bleidlais rydd ar egwyddor cyfyngiadau cyfreithiol i reoli cysylltiadiad â mwg tybaco mewn lleoedd cyhoeddus dan do. Gofynnaf am eich cefnogaeth i Fesur iechyd i Gymru i alluogi’r Cynulliad i wneud rheoliadau i leihau cysylltiad y cyhoedd â mwg tybaco mewn lleoedd o’r fath.

If we vote in favour of the principle this afternoon, much work will be required before the people of Wales can literally breathe easily. I do not underestimate the difficulty of finding a slot in the crowded Westminster timetable. There would need to be a full programme of consultation with relevant parties before the detailed regulations could be brought in. We must work with the grain of public support on this issue; there is over 80 per cent support for controls to limit the public health risk. The consultation work could be achieved either by commissioning an expert group to carry out the work on the Assembly’s behalf, or the Health and Social Services Committee could undertake the work itself. I look forward to the Minister’s views on this. Finally, regulations would be placed before the Assembly, specifying exactly the kinds of premises that would be subject to health controls, and Members of the new Assembly would have a further vote at that stage.

yn Saesneg Os pleidleisiwn o blaid yr egwyddor y prynhawn yma, bydd angen gwneud llawer o waith cyn y gall pobl Cymru yn llythrennol anadlu’n rhwydd. Nid wyf yn tanbrisio pa mor anodd fydd dod o hyd i le yn amserlen orlawn San Steffan. Byddai angen rhaglen lawn o ymgynghori gyda phobl berthnasol cyn y gellid rhoi y rheoliadau manwl ar waith. Rhaid gweithio gyda thuedd y gefnogaeth gyhoeddus ar y mater hwn; ceir 80 y cant o gefnogaeth i reolaethau i leihau’r risg i iechyd cyhoeddus. Gellid cyflawni’r gwaith ymgynghori naill ai drwy gomisiynu grŵp o arbenigwyr i wneud y gwaith ar ran y Cynulliad, neu gallai’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ymgymryd â’r gwaith ei hun. Edrychaf ymlaen at farn y Gweinidog ar hyn. Yn olaf, gellid cyflwyno rheoliadau i’r Cynulliad, yn nodi’n benodol y math o safleoedd a fyddai’n agored i reolaethau iechyd, a châi Aelodau’r Cynulliad newydd bleidlais bellach y pryd hwnnw.

We should include shops and retail centres, cafes and restaurants and public transport at the first stage. Premises where children are not permitted to enter, such as pubs and night clubs, would not be included at this stage, even though similar premises are smoke free in other parts of Europe, Australia and several US states. Private members clubs would be exempt. Eighty per cent of the public supports controls, and 100 per cent of party leaders supports controls. Speaking on The People’s Assembly on 12 December, all four party leaders expressed their personal support for measures to limit the death and injury toll.

yn Saesneg Dylem yn y lle cyntaf gynnwys siopau a chanolfannau manwerthu, caffis a thai bwyta a thrafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Ni fyddai safleoedd lle na chaniateir mynediad i blant, megis tafarnau a chlybiau nos yn cael eu cynwys ar hyn o bryd, er bod safleoedd tebyg yn rhydd o fwg mewn rhannau eraill o Ewrop, Awstralia a llawer o daleithiau’r America. Eithrir clybiau aelodaeth breifat. Mae 80 y cant o’r cyhoedd yn cefnogi rheolaethau a 100 y cant o arweinwyr y pleidiau yn cefnogi rheolaethau. Wrth siarad ar The People’s Assembly ar 12 Rhagfyr, mynegodd arweinydd pob un o’r pedair plaid eu cefnogaeth bersonol i gamau i leihau nifer y bobl sy’n marw neu sy’n cael niwed.

Before casting their votes, I ask Members to consider those employees who are forced to choose between employment and their health. Many workers in cafes and shopping areas work long, anti-social hours for the legal minimum wage. While highly-paid professionals work in offices where smoke-free status is now the norm, catering staff, earning a fraction of a professional’s wage, are routinely exposed to heart disease and cancer because we, the politicians, have failed to protect them.

yn Saesneg Cyn bwrw’u pleidlais gofynnaf i Aelodau ystyried y cyflogeion hynny a orfodir i ddewis rhwng cyflogaeth a’u hiechyd. Gweithia llawer o weithwyr mewn caffis ac ardaloedd siopa oriau hir, gwrth-gymdeithasol ar yr isafswm cyflog cyfreithiol. Tra bod gweithwyr proffesiynol ar gyflogau uchel yn gweithio mewn swyddfeydd lle mae statws di-fwg bellach yn arferol, mae staff arlwyo, sy’n ennill cyfran o gyflog y gweithwyr proffesiynol, yn cael eu peryglu’n gyson gan glefyd y galon a chanser am ein bod ni, y gwleidyddion, wedi methu â’u diogelu.

Finally, I hope that Members will recognise the compelling and conclusive scientific and medical case to protect non-smoking adults and children. By following the lead of countries as varied as Norway and Canada, Wales could be the safest part of the UK to work and play. [Applause.]

yn Saesneg I gloi, gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau yn cydnabod yr achos gwyddonol a meddygol cadarn, a therfynol, dros ddiogelu oedolion a phlant nad ydynt yn ysmygu. Drwy ddilyn arweiniad gwledydd mor amrywiol â Norwy a Chanada, Cymru o bosibl fydd y lle mwyaf diogel yn y DU i weithio a chwarae. [Cymeradwyaeth.]

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

More than a dozen Members wish to speak. I will not allow a closure motion unless at least half to two-thirds of those Members have spoken before 5.00 p.m.. If we are to have a vote this afternoon, Members must limit themselves to three minutes each. I will not impose a three-minute limit, but Members are aware of the situation.

Mae dros ddeuddeg o Aelodau yn dymuno siarad. Ni chaniatâf gynnig cloi oni bai bod o leiaf hanner i ddwy ran o dair o’r Aelodau hynny wedi siarad erbyn 5.00 p.m.. Er mwyn inni gael pleidlais y prynhawn yma, rhaid i Aelodau gyfyngu eu hunain i dair munud yr un. Ni fyddaf yn gorfodi cyfyngiad o dair munud, ond mae’r Aelodau yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 66

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I welcome this motion. It deserves the support of Members for two reasons. First, the principle of bringing decision-making powers to the Assembly. The motion before us calls for the Assembly to be given powers to decide on this issue. As Alun Pugh outlined, if that were the case we would have ample opportunity to discuss the rights and wrongs of such a ban and the details of how it would operate. It is an important principle that the Assembly should be able to decide on this important issue in Wales.

Croesawaf y cynnig hwn. Mae’n haeddu cefnogaeth yr Aelodau am ddau reswm. Yn gyntaf, yr egwyddor o ddod â phwerau gwneud penderfyniadau i’r Cynulliad. Mae’r cynnig ger ein bron yn galw am roi pwerau i’r Cynulliad i benderfynu ar y mater hwn. Fel yr amlinellodd Alun Pugh, pe bai hynny’n wir byddai digon o gyfle gennym i drafod dwy ochr gwaharddiad o’r fath a manylion sut y byddai’n gweithredu. Mae rhoi’r hawl i’r Cynulliad benderfynu ar y mater pwysig hwn yng Nghymru yn egwyddor bwysig.

On the substantive issue of smoking, I come to this debate as someone who, throughout my twenties, had a 40-cigarettes-a-day habit. Believe me, it is not easy to go from smoking a couple of packs a day as a 20-year-old to the situation that I am in today. I struggle daily with the desire to reach for a cigarette and light up. I enjoyed having a cigarette and it has been difficult not to smoke. I must admit that there have been days when I have fallen off the wagon; that usually coincides with a particularly stressful afternoon in the Chamber and being in the vicinity of a couple of white wine and sodas. A ban on smoking in public places would have probably helped me to give up because if, after drinking those white wine and sodas, I found myself in a place where I could not smoke, I would not reach for that cigarette.

O ran mater sylweddol ysmygu, deuaf at y ddadl hon fel rhywun a oedd, ar hyd fy ugeiniau, yn arfer ysmygu 40 sigarét y dydd. Credwch fi, nid yw’n hawdd mynd o ysmygu dau becyn y dydd yn berson 20 oed i’r sefyllfa yr wyf ynddi heddiw. Brwydraf yn ddyddiol â’r awydd i ymestyn am sigarét a’i thanio. Arferwn fwynhau cael sigarét ac mae wedi bod yn anodd rhoi’r gorau iddi. Rhaid imi gyfaddef bod diwrnodau wedi bod pan ildiais; bydd hynny fel arfer yn cyd-ddigwydd â phrynhawn arbennig o anodd yn y Siambr, a bod yn agos at un neu ddau wydraid o win gwyn a soda. Byddai gwaharddiad ar ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus yn debygol o fod wedi fy nghynorthwyo i roi’r gorau i ysmygu oherwydd pe bawn, ar ôl yfed y gwin gwyn a soda hwnnw, yn cael fy hun mewn man lle na allwn ysmygu, ni fyddwn yn ymestyn at y sigarét honno.

However, I approach this point with difficulty. Philosophically, as a liberal, I have an inherent distrust of banning specific activities. Therefore, discussing a ban on smoking makes me uncomfortable about restricting other people’s freedom. However, my freedom, and that of others, to smoke cannot be judged in isolation from other people’s freedom to breathe fresh air. As Alun said, this is not only about an irritating smell that sticks to your clothes and that you notice when you wake up the next morning, this is about serious damage to people’s health when they passively breathe in other people’s smoke.

Fodd bynnag, dof at y mater hwn ag anhawster. Yn athronyddol, fel rhyddfrydwraig, mae gennyf amheuon greddfol ynglŷn â gwahardd gweithgareddau arbennig. Felly, mae trafod gwaharddiad ar ysmygu yn fy ngwneud yn anghyfforddus ynglŷn â chyfyngu ar ryddid pobl eraill. Fodd bynnag ni all fy rhyddid i, na rhyddid pobl eraill i ysmygu, gael ei ystyried ar wahân i ryddid pobl eraill i anadlu awyr iach. Fel y dywedodd Alun, nid sôn am yr aroglau annymunol sy’n glynu wrth eich dillad, ac y sylwch arno yn y bore pan godwch, yr ydym, ond y niwed difrifol i iechyd pobl pan anadlant fwg pobl eraill yn oddefol.

The tobacco companies used to deny that smoking caused disease. It is not therefore surprising that they now state that passive smoking does not cause disease. However, the medical evidence indicates that it does. Do I, as an individual, have the right not only to affect my own health but that of the people around me? I am sure that Alun Cairns will raise the issue of alcohol, but there is no safe limit with cigarette smoking—all smoking is dangerous. However, there are safe levels of alcohol consumption. As long as people consume alcohol responsibly, it does not affect other people’s health.

Arferai’r cwmnïau tybaco wadu bod ysmygu yn achosi clefyd. Nid yw’n syndod felly eu bod yn datgan yn awr nad yw ysmygu goddefol yn achosi clefyd. Fodd bynnag, dengys y dystiolaeth feddygol ei fod. A oes gennyf fi, fel unigolyn, yr hawl, nid yn unig i effeithio ar fy iechyd fy hun, ond hefyd ar iechyd y bobl sydd o’m hamgylch? Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Alun Cairns yn codi mater alcohol, ond nid oes terfyn diogel ar ysmygu sigarennau—nid oes ysmygu diogel. Fodd bynnag y mae terfynau diogel i yfed alcohol. Cyhyd â bod pobl yn yfed alcohol yn gyfrifol, nid yw’n effeithio ar iechyd pobl eraill.

Smoking is a pernicious addiction. Those of us who struggle need help to give up. In this instance, it is right to restrict people’s freedom and choice because of the deadly impact that our habits have on other people.

Mae ysmygu yn gaethineb dinistriol. Mae angen cymorth ar y rhai hynny ohonom sy’n brwydro i roi’r gorau i ysmygu. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’n briodol cyfyngu ar ryddid a dewis pobl oherwydd yr effaith angheuol a gaiff ein harferion ar bobl eraill.

David Melding spoken in English p. 68

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I will not repeat the evidence that was so ably presented earlier by Alun Pugh. However, I will say that no independent authority doubts that passive smoking has a deleterious effect on people’s health, particularly the health of those who are vulnerable to chronic diseases or are young or old. I am happy to co-sponsor this motion because it is a subject on which the Assembly could act, exemplify best practice, and lead the rest of Britain in delivering significant health gain. That is what we should be about.

Ni wnaf ailadrodd y dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd mor dda yn gynharach gan Alun Pugh. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw awdurdod annibynnol yn amau bod ysmygu goddefol yn cael effaith wael ar iechyd pobl, yn enwedig iechyd y rhai sy’n fwy tebygol o ddioddef o glefydau cronig neu sy’n ifanc neu’n hen. Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyd-noddi’r cynnig hwn oherwydd ei fod ar bwnc y gallai’r Cynulliad weithredu arno, arddangos arfer gorau, ac arwain gweddill Prydain mewn cyflwyno mantais iechyd sylweddol. Dyna yw ein gwaith i fod.

As a Conservative, I want to reflect on some of the underlying arguments. We should remember that smoking is a habit and a fashion. In 50 years’ time, when discussing cigarette smoking, social historians will write about the twentieth century in terms of bewilderment. It is not a natural activity; it is a habit acquired as a result of marketing. The tobacco industry—and I daresay we will hear some of its arguments this afternoon—has been a malign force since the early 1960s when the link between smoking and serious disease was demonstrated. Its attempt to undermine this argument is like King Herod saying that he wants to become the patron of Mothercare; it should be dismissed out of hand.

Fel Ceidwadwr, yr wyf am fwrw golwg ar rai o’r dadleuon sylfaenol. Dylem gofio bod ysmygu yn arfer ac yn ffasiwn. Mewn 50 mlynedd, wrth drafod ysmygu sigarennau, bydd haneswyr cymdeithasol yn ysgrifennu am yr ugeinfed ganrif mewn dryswch. Nid yw’n weithgaredd naturiol, mae’n arfer a gafwyd o ganlyniad i hysbysebu. Mae’r diwydiant tybaco—ac yr wyf yn siŵr y cawn glywed rhai o’i ddadleuon y prynhawn yma—wedi bod yn bŵer er drwg ers dechrau’r 1960au pan ddangoswyd cyswllt rhwng ysmygu a chlefyd difrifol. Mae ei ymdrech i danseilio’r ddadl hon yn union fel pe bai’r Brenin Herod yn dweud ei fod am fod yn noddwr Mothercare; dylid ei wrthod yn llwyr.

I must address some of the conservative arguments that may be brought into play, which essentially relate to the view that this measure is anti-libertarian and is perhaps another example of the nanny state run wild. I will address those arguments head-on. The libertarian argument—namely that any action that does not affect others should be generally permitted—must be respected. I believe that. However, passive smoking has a dramatic effect on others, which is different to that of alcohol. If you sit in a bar drinking soda, those who are drinking alcohol do not try to force you to drink it. People do not wander around forcing others to drink hard liquor—

Rhaid imi fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r dadleuon ceidwadol a gaiff eu defnyddio o bosibl, sy’n ymwneud yn eu hanfod â’r farn bod y mesur hwn yn wrth-ryddewyllysiol ac yn enghraifft arall o bosibl o’r wladwriaeth faldodus yn mynd dros ben llestri. Af i’r afael â’r dadleuon hyn ar unwaith. Rhaid parchu’r ddadl ryddewyllysiol—sef y dylid yn gyffredinol ganiatáu unrhyw weithred nad yw’n effeithio ar eraill. Credaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, caiff ysmygu goddefol effaith sylweddol ar eraill sy’n wahanol i effaith alcohol. Os eisteddwch mewn bar yn yfed soda, nid yw’r rhai sy’n yfed alcohol yn eich gorfodi i’w yfed. Nid yw pobl yn crwydro o gwmpas yn gorfodi pobl eraill i yfed diod gadarn—

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 69

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

You say that people do not have to suffer the ills of alcohol in a bar. However, I find it disturbing, as a single woman, to sit alone in a bar not drinking alcohol and be forced to fend off people who have had one drink over the eight and persuade them that I do not want their company. That is an evil that results from drinking alcohol in the same way that you describe passive smoking to be an evil that results from smoking.

Dywedwch nad oes yn rhaid i bobl ddioddef drygau alcohol mewn bar. Fodd bynnag, mae’n beth annifyr imi, fel menyw sengl, eistedd ar fy mhen fy hun mewn bar yn yfed diod feddal, a chael fy ngorfodi i gadw pobl sydd wedi cael un peint yn ormod draw, a’u darbwyllo nad wyf am eu cwmni. Mae hynny’n beth drwg sy’n deillio o yfed alcohol yn yr un ffordd ag y disgrifir ysmygu goddefol gennych i fod yn ddrwg sy’n deillio o ysmygu.

David Melding spoken in English p. 69

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

Banning alcohol in bars would undermine the purpose of those establishments; but I may be wrong. Perhaps I have visions of speakeasys and those lovely cups in which they served gin.

Byddai gwahardd alcohol mewn bariau yn tanseilio diben y mannau hynny; ond efallai fy mod yn anghywir. Efallai fy mod yn meddwl am y speakeasys a’r cwpanau hyfryd hynny yr arlwyent gin ynddynt.

The libertarian argument in favour of the smoker’s right to smoke anywhere surely collapses under the weight of its own premise. It should not be given credence. Another argument is to ask why should people interfere if others enjoy doing something. The answer is that people can continue to smoke in their own homes. The utilitarian argument is now strongly in favour of banning smoking in public places because three quarters of the population does not smoke. Those in the majority have a greater right to require smokers not to smoke in their presence than smokers have to force smoking on them.

Mae’r ddadl ryddewyllysiol o blaid hawl yr ysmygwr i ysmygu yn rhywle yn rhwym o gael ei dymchwel o dan bwysau ei gosodiad ei hun. Ni ddylid rhoi hygrededd i’r ddadl honno. Dadl arall yw gofyn pam y dylai pobl ymyrryd os yw eraill yn mwynhau gwneud rhywbeth. Yr ateb yw y gall pobl barhau i ysmygu yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Mae’r ddadl iwtilitaraidd yn awr yn gryf o blaid gwahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus am nad yw tri chwarter y boblogaeth yn ysmygu. Mae gan y rhai sydd yn y mwyafrif fwy o hawl i fynnu bod ysmygwyr yn peidio ag ysmygu yn eu gŵydd nag sydd gan ysmygwyr i orfodi ysmygu arnynt.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 69

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I fully support Alun Pugh’s proposal. This issue should be above party politics. Passive smoking is a major killer in Britain and no other social habit can cause the deaths of hundreds of innocent bystanders. I am fully committed to upholding people’s civil rights. If a 16-year-old chooses to smoke, it is their right to do so. I fully support that right to choose. However, I do not recognise someone’s right to damage the health of innocent bystanders by smoking in public places. The state of the law today denies non-smokers their right to choose whether or not they want to put themselves at risk. Alun wants to redress the balance in favour of the vast majority of men, women and children in Wales. Furthermore, Alun’s proposal will chime with the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s aim of weaning the Treasury off its own addiction to tobacco revenue. Since Labour came to power, that revenue has fallen from £10 billion to around £7 billion. Alun’s proposal, if it is supported—and I sincerely hope that it will be—may get Westminster’s backing, which would be good. I have had enough of smoke-filled rooms, even if they are filled with my own party Members.

Cefnogaf gynnig Alun Pugh yn llwyr. Dylai’r mater hwn fod uwchlaw gwleidyddiaeth plaid. Mae ysmygu goddefol yn lladd llawer ym Mhrydain ac ni all unrhyw arfer cymdeithasol arall achosi marwolaeth cannoedd o bobl ddiniwed. Yr wyf yn gwbl ymrwymedig i gynnal hawliau sifil pobl. Os yw person ifanc 16 oed yn dewis ysmygu, dyna yw ei hawl. Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r hawl honno i ddewis yn llwyr. Fodd bynnag nid wyf yn cydnabod hawl rhywun i niweidio iechyd pobl ddiniwed drwy ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Mae cyflwr y gyfraith heddiw yn gwadu’r hawl i rai nad ydynt yn ysmygu i ddewis a ydynt am roi eu hunain mewn perygl ai peidio. Mae Alun am wneud iawn am y cam o blaid y mwyafrif llethol o ddynion, merched a phlant yng Nghymru. At hynny bydd cynnig Alun yn taro tant gyda nod Canghellor y Trysorlys i ddiddyfnu’r Trysorlys oddi ar ei gaethineb i refeniw tybaco. Ers i Lafur ddod i rym mae’r refeniw hwnnw wedi gostwng o £10 biliwn i tua £7 biliwn. Efallai y caiff cynnig Alun, os caiff ei gefnogi—ac yr wyf yn gwir obeithio y caiff—gefnogaeth San Steffan, a fyddai’n beth da. Yr wyf wedi cael llond bol o ystafelloedd llawn mwg, hyd yn oed os ydynt yn llawn o Aelodau fy mhlaid fy hun.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 70

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I approach this subject as a non-smoker with respect for others who may or may not wish to smoke. I respect the civil liberties of others, but expect that that respect should run both ways. I am not providing an unqualified opportunity for smokers to blow smoke directly into my eyes, as the vast majority of smokers are aware of the sensitivity surrounding their habit and respect my rights. I had considered tabling amendments to the motion but, without deleting almost every word, no significant improvement could have been made. I therefore urge Members to oppose the motion.

Dof at y mater hwn fel un nad yw’n ysmygwr gyda pharch at eraill sydd yn dymuno ysmygu neu beidio. Yr wyf yn parchu rhyddfreiniau sifil eraill, ond yn disgwyl y dylai parch fod o’r ddeutu. Nid wyf yn rhoi cyfle diamod i ysmygwyr chwythu mwg yn uniongyrchol i’m llygaid, gan fod y mwyafrif llethol o ysmygwyr yn ymwybodol o’r sensitifrwydd o ran eu harfer a pharchant fy hawliau i. Bûm yn ystyried cyflwyno gwelliannau i’r cynnig ond heb ddileu bron pob gair, ni ellid bod wedi gwneud gwelliant sylweddol. Felly anogaf Aelodau i wrthod y cynnig.

This debate requires a balance. The motion is the starting point of a legislative process. No doubt many Members will decide to follow calls made by the anti-smoking lobby. Some may see that as the politically correct action to take. I hope that no smokers here today intend to support the motion—that would leave them open to accusations of being hypocrites. In view of the potential change in legislation, we need to consider this matter and vote in this debate as though we were passing the law itself. We should not debate the issue in the emotional way that it has been presented thus far; we should have an emphasis on practicality.

Mae angen cydbwysedd yn y ddadl hon. Mae’r cynnig yn fan cychwyn proses ddeddfwriaethol. Mae’n debyg y penderfyna llawer o’r Aelodau ddilyn galwadau gan y garfan wrth-ysmygu. Efallai y gwêl rhai hynny fel y cam gwleidyddol gywir i’w ddilyn. Gobeithiaf nad yw’n fwriad gan unrhyw ysmygwyr sydd yma heddiw i gefnogi’r cynnig—byddai hynny’n eu gadael yn agored i gyhuddiadau o fod yn rhagrithwyr. Yn wyneb y newid posibl mewn deddfwriaeth, mae angen inni ystyried y mater hwn, a phleidleisio yn y ddadl hon, fel pe baem yn pasio’r ddeddf ei hun. Ni ddylem drafod y mater yn y ffordd emosiynol y’i cyflwynwyd hyd yn hyn, dylem roi’r pwyslais ar ymarferoldeb.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 70

Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r cynnig. Fodd bynnag, bu ichi gyfeirio at ragrith. A gytunwch fod elfen o ragrith yn perthyn i’r Llywodraeth hon, sy’n honni ei bod am achub cam a gwarchod iechyd plant tra’n caniatáu i ysgolion gael eu hadeiladu ar dir halogedig, sy’n cyflwyno bygythiad tebyg, os nad gwaeth, i iechyd plant?

I support the motion. However, you referred to hypocrisy. Do you agree that the Government has shown an element of hypocrisy by claiming that it wants to defend and protect children’s health while allowing schools to be built on contaminated land, which presents a similar, if not a greater, risk to children’s health?

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 71

Alun Cairns spoken in Welsh and English p. 71

Yr wyf yn falch imi dderbyn yr ymyriad, ond efallai mai pwynt ar gyfer dadl arall yw hwnnw. Cytunaf fod elfen o ragrith yn perthyn i’r Llywodraeth.

in Welsh I am glad that I accepted the intervention, but that point should perhaps be raised in another debate. I agree that the Government has shown an element of hypocrisy.

Any legislation banning smoking in public places would be impossible to police. Banning smoking in a restaurant where the restaurateur and customers are content to allow such an activity could not be controlled without enormous additional resources. It could tie-up the courts, which are already clogged-up with genuine, criminal cases.

yn Saesneg Byddai unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth yn gwahardd ysmygu o fannau cyhoeddus yn amhosibl i’w blismona. Ni fyddai’n bosibl gwahardd ysmygu mewn tŷ bwyta lle byddai’r perchennog a’r cwsmeriaid yn fodlon caniatáu gweithgaredd o’r fath heb adnoddau ychwanegol enfawr. Gallai glymu’r llysoedd, sydd eisoes wedi eu gorlwytho gan achosion troseddol dilys.

The motion also claims as fact that environmental tobacco smoke causes life-threatening diseases. However, the effects of environmental tobacco smoke are not fully known. The evidence must be questioned and, as pragmatists and politicians, Members would surely want to do that. To track a relatively small risk level, samples of scientific studies must be large. It is impossible to distinguish between the effects of environmental tobacco smoke and other lifestyle factors, such as eating or drinking habits, work pressure, the location of residence and so on. Also, the diseases that environmental tobacco smoke is accused of causing have a long latent period.

yn Saesneg Mae’r cynnig hefyd yn haeru ei bod cystal â bod yn ffaith bod mwg tybaco amgylcheddol yn achosi clefydau sy’n fygythiad i fywyd. Fodd bynnag, nid yw effaith mwg tybaco amgylcheddol yn gwbl hysbys. Rhaid amau’r dystiolaeth ac, fel pragmatyddion a gwleidyddion, byddai Aelodau yn sicr am wneud hynny. Er mwyn monitro lefel risg gymharol fechan, rhaid i samplau astudiaethau gwyddonol fod yn fawr. Mae’n amhosibl gwahaniaethu rhwng effaith mwg tybaco amgylcheddol a ffactorau ffordd o fyw eraill megis arferion bwyta ac yfed, pwysau gwaith, lleoliad cartref ac yn y blaen. Hefyd, mae gan y clefydau y cyhuddir mwg tybaco amgylcheddol o’u hachosi gyfnod cudd hir.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 71

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I will not give way because time is short.

Ni wnaf ildio gan fod amser yn fyr.

It is impossible to state who has or has not been exposed to environmental tobacco smoke or any other environmental factors that could have an impact on lifestyles. Therefore, it is not surprising that the outcomes of reports on this issue are questionable. Even a British Medical Association report shows a risk level below 2 per cent, which is well within the margin of error in any survey.

Mae’n amhosibl datgan pwy sydd, a phwy sydd heb gael eu peryglu gan fwg tybaco amgylcheddol, neu unrhyw ffactorau amgylcheddol eraill a allai gael effaith ar ffordd o fyw pobl. Felly nid yw’n syndod bod canlyniadau adroddiadau ar y mater hwn yn amheus. Mae hyd yn oed adroddiad gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn dangos lefel risg sydd o dan 2 y cant sydd ymhell o dan y ffin camgymeriad mewn unrhyw arolwg.

I have suggested that civil liberty is the focal point of my contribution. Who am I to tell others what to do? Of course, that could be taken to the nth degree and could result in anarchy, which I do not advocate.

Awgrymais mai rhyddid sifil yw craidd fy nghyfraniad. Pa hawl sydd gennyf fi i ddweud wrth eraill beth i’w wneud? Wrth gwrs, gellid dadlau hynny i’w bendraw a gallai arwain at anarchiaeth, nad wyf yn ei gymeradwyo.

Given a choice, we would not start debating smoking at this point. However, it is already legal and is a habit that is enjoyed by millions. The way forward is surely to educate people about the real risks of smoking, to encourage them, to provide them with information and to co-operate with them. We hear much about partnerships with regard to every other issue in the Assembly, but why not in this debate?

O gael dewis, ni fyddem yn dechrau trafod ysmygu ar yr adeg hon. Fodd bynnag mae eisoes yn gyfreithlon ac mae’n arfer sy’n cael ei fwynhau gan filiynau. Y ffordd ymlaen yn bendant yw addysgu pobl am risgiau gwirioneddol ysmygu, i’w hannog, i roi gwybodaeth iddynt ac i gydweithredu â hwy. Clywn lawer am bartneriaethau o ran pob mater arall yn y Cynulliad pam nad yw hyn yn digwydd yn y drafodaeth hon?

The tobacco industry and the owners and managers of many public places advocate a public places charter—a voluntary code which allows potential customers of an establishment to identify whether or not smoking is permitted there and whether there is sufficient ventilation to reduce the nuisance effect. The Department of Health supports that way forward, and the Scottish Executive has developed a similar scheme. That is an excellent example of how market forces can play their part in delivering choice. Businesses should decide whether or not to promote a non-smoking policy. That is an ideal way to differentiate between businesses and for them to sell their product. It is an opportunity for people to vote with their feet, as British Airways and other leading airlines have concluded. A restaurant in Swansea has also decided to establish a non-smoking policy. Smokers can choose to go elsewhere and non-smokers can decide, if they wish, to visit that restaurant. Other businesses may choose the smoking option. It is an issue whereby market forces can show the way yet again.

Mae’r diwydiant tybaco a pherchnogion a rheolwyr llawer o fannau cyhoeddus yn argymell siarter mannau cyhoeddus—cod gwirfoddol sy’n caniatáu i ddarpar gwsmeriaid sefydliad i nodi a ydynt am i ysmygu gael ei ganiatáu yno ai peidio ac a oes awyru digonol i leihau’r effaith niwsans. Mae’r Adran Iechyd yn cefnogi’r ffordd ymlaen hon, ac mae’r Weithrediaeth yn yr Alban wedi datblygu cynllun tebyg. Dyna enghraifft ardderchog o sut y gall grymoedd y farchnad chwarae eu rhan i gyflwyno dewis. Busnesau ddylai ddewis hyrwyddo polisi dim ysmygu ai peidio. Mae honno’n ffordd ddelfrydol o wahaniaethu rhwng busnesau ac iddynt hwy gael gwerthu eu cynnyrch. Mae’n gyfle i bobl wneud eu dewis eu hunain, fel y mae British Airways a chwmnïau hedfan blaenllaw eraill wedi penderfynu. Penderfynodd tŷ bwyta yn Abertawe hefyd i sefydlu polisi dim ysmygu. Gall ysmygwyr ddewis mynd i fan arall, a gall y rhai nad ydynt yn ysmygu, os dymunant benderfynu mynd i’r tŷ bwyta hwnnw. Efallai y bydd busnesau eraill yn dewis rhoi’r hawl i ysmygu. Mae’n fater lle y gall grymoedd y farchnad ddangos y ffordd unwaith eto.

Many in the anti-smoking lobby socialise by having a beer, a gin and tonic, or a glass of wine. Alcohol is a serious drug that causes many more deaths than smoking directly. Therefore, why do those who favour a ban on smoking not show similar enthusiasm towards banning alcohol? I am not pro-smoking; I am pro-choice and oppose the smoking apartheid that has been presented today. I urge you to oppose the motion.

Mae llawer yn y garfan wrth-ysmygu yn cymdeithasu drwy gael diod o gwrw, gin a thonic, neu wydraid o win. Mae alcohol yn gyffur peryglus sy’n achosi mwy o farwolaethau yn uniongyrchol na thybaco. Felly, pam na fyddai’r rhai sy’n ffafrio gwaharddiad ar ysmygu yn dangos yr un brwdfrydedd tuag at wahardd alcohol? Nid wyf yn gefnogol i ysmygu; yr wyf fi o blaid dewis ac yn gwrthwynebu’r apartheid ysmygu sydd wedi ei gyflwyno heddiw. Anogaf chi i wrthwynebu’r cynnig.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 73

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Having listened to Alun Cairns, and although it is not good manners, if he spoke to the person who blew smoke in his face in the way that he does to most of us here, I would understand such an approach. Sometimes, you can overstep the mark.

Ar ôl gwrando ar Alun Cairns, ac er nad yw’n beth cwrtais, pe bai’n siarad â’r person a chwythodd fwg yn ei wyneb yn y ffordd y mae’n siarad â’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yma, buaswn yn deall hynny. Weithiau gallwch fynd yn rhy bell.

I respect the four Members who sponsored this motion, particularly Alun Pugh, who from his first day here has supported a ban on smoking and has great credibility in that regard. However, this is a question of civil liberties. Implementing this type of legislation concerns me. I come from a community where there is great deprivation, hardship and poverty. For many of those who are unemployed and feeling great stress, a cigarette helps to calm them down—what we call locally a fag and a cup of tea or a cigarette and a drink. It is not easy to herd all those people out of public buildings and stigmatise and ghettoise them, as this legislation would require. That concerns me.

Parchaf y pedwar Aelod sy’n noddi’r cynnig hwn, yn arbennig Alun Pugh, sydd o’i ddiwrnod cyntaf yma, wedi cefnogi’r gwaharddiad ar ysmygu, ac mae ganddo gryn hygrededd o ran hynny. Fodd bynnag mae hwn yn gwestiwn o ryddfreiniau sifil. Mae rhoi’r math hwn o ddeddfwriaeth ar waith yn fy mhryderu. Dof o gymuned lle ceir amddifadedd, caledi a thlodi mawr. I lawer o’r rhai sy’n ddi-waith ac yn teimlo cryn bwysau mae sigarét yn gymorth i’w tawelu—yr hyn a alwn yn lleol yn fwgyn a disgled o de neu sigarét a diod. Nid yw’n hawdd gyrru’r holl bobl hynny allan o adeiladau cyhoeddus a’u hynysu a’u gwneud yn esgymun, fel y byddai’r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn gofyn amdano. Mae hynny’n fy ngofidio.

There is also a reference to the cost of treating smoking diseases. That is quite chilling. If we tell people that they cost us a great deal of money because they have taken advantage of a civil liberty by smoking, what comes next? Do we ban chocolate and fatty foods? There is a growing obesity problem in Wales. Someone else mentioned problems relating to alcohol.

Ceir hefyd gyfeiriad at gost trin clefydau ysmygu. Mae hyn yn eithaf brawychus. Os dywedwn wrth bobl eu bod yn costio llawer o arian inni oherwydd eu bod wedi manteisio ar hawl sifil i ysmygu beth ddaw nesaf? A ydym yn mynd i wahardd siocled a bwydydd llawn braster? Mae problem gordewdra hefyd ar gynnydd yng Nghymru. Soniodd rhywun arall am broblemau sy’n gysylltiedig ag alcohol.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 73

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Do you accept that there is a fundamental difference between the lifestyle choices that you mention and smoking? We all know that eating too much chocolate and drinking too much alcohol leads to health problems, but a sensible consumption of those two items does not cause problems. There is no safe limit associated with cigarette smoking. A single cigarette can harm the person sitting next to the smoker when they inhale that smoke. That is the fundamental difference between the lifestyle choices that you mention and smoking.

A dderbyniwch fod gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng y dewisiadau ffordd o fyw y soniwch amdanynt ac ysmygu? Gwyddom i gyd fod bwyta gormod o siocled ac yfed gormod o alcohol yn arwain at broblemau iechyd, ond nid yw cymryd y ddwy eitem honno yn synhwyrol yn achosi problemau. Nid oes terfyn diogel gydag ysmygu sigarennau. Gall un sigarét wneud niwed i’r person sy’n eistedd wrth ymyl yr ysmygwr pan fydd yn anadlu’r mwg hwnnw. Dyna’r gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng y dewisiadau ffordd o fyw y soniwch amdanynt ac ysmygu.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 73

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I partly accept that because I do not agree with smoking. I have never smoked and I do not like the effect of smoke on myself and others. It is costly in health and financial terms. However, if we start to judge people in terms of being a financial burden on the NHS because they have the audacity to smoke a cigarette, then the next question is what to do about fatty foods? Obesity is a big problem in Wales, which is worsening, as you all know. There are also problems associated with alcohol consumption. Therefore, it is reasonable to make that comparison.

Derbyniaf hynny yn rhannol oherwydd nid wyf yn cytuno ag ysmygu. Nid wyf erioed wedi ysmygu ac nid wyf yn hoffi effaith mwg arnaf fy hun nac eraill. Mae’n gostus o ran iechyd ac yn ariannol. Fodd bynnag os dechreuwn farnu pobl am fod yn faich ariannol ar y GIG oherwydd bod ganddynt yr hyfdra i ysmygu sigarét, yna’r cwestiwn nesaf yw beth a wnawn gyda bwydydd llawn braster? Mae gordewdra yn broblem fawr yng Nghymru sy’n gwaethygu, fel y gŵyr pawb ohonoch. Ceir hefyd broblemau sy’n gysylltiedig ag yfed alcohol. Felly nid yw’n afresymol gwneud y gymhariaeth honno.

However, I appreciate that smoking contributes towards passive smoking. A voluntary approach is the way forward on this. Many restaurants, cafes and public houses do not currently allow smoking on their premises, but other organisations have a system of segregation for smokers and non-smokers. I realise that that is not perfect because passive smoking remains a factor. However, you must remember the effect on these businesses’ revenue. If we start making these decisions and ghettoising and stigmatising those who smoke because it is a part of their social life, businesses will lose a great deal of revenue. Anything more than a voluntary arrangement at this point would breach civil liberties.

Fodd bynnag, gwerthfawrogaf fod ysmygu yn cyfrannu tuag at ysmygu goddefol. Gweithredu gwirfoddol yw’r ffordd ymlaen ar hyn. Ni wna llawer o dai bwyta, caffis a thafarnau ganiatáu ysmygu ar hyn o bryd, ond mae gan sefydliadau eraill system o wahanu ar gyfer ysmygwyr a rhai nad ydynt yn ysmygwyr. Sylweddolaf nad yw hynny’n berffaith oherwydd mae ysmygu goddefol yn parhau’n ffactor. Fodd bynnag rhaid ichi gofio’r effaith ar refeniw’r busnesau hynny. Os dechreuwn wneud y penderfyniadau hyn ac esgymuno a difrïo y rhai hynny sy’n ysmygu oherwydd ei fod yn rhan o’u bywyd cymdeithasol, bydd busnesau yn colli llawer o refeniw. Byddai unrhyw beth sy’n fwy na threfniant gwirfoddol ar hyn o bryd yn torri hawliau sifil.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 74

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I begin by referring to the motion before us because although much of this debate relates to whether smoking should be banned in public places, it is worth reminding ourselves that this motion does not attempt to do that. It sets out first principles; it does not seek to ban but to call for the ability to do so if we so wish. None of us should have a problem with that principle. There is no good, logical reason why that decision should be made at Westminster because it could have introduced a ban, but it chose not to do so.

Dechreuaf drwy gyfeirio at y cynnig ger ein bron. Er bod llawer o’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â’r cwestiwn pa un a ddylai ysmygu gael ei wahardd mewn lleoedd cyhoeddus, mae’n werth atgoffa ein hunain nad yw’r cynnig yn ceisio gwneud hynny. Nodi egwyddorion sylfaenol a wna; nid yw’n ceisio gwahardd ysmygu ond yn hytrach ofyn am y gallu i wneud hynny os mai dyna yw ein dymuniad. Ni ddylai’r un ohonom gael problem â’r egwyddor honno. Nid oes rheswm da, rhesymegol pam y dylai’r penderfyniad gael ei wneud yn San Steffan, oherwydd gallai fod wedi cyflwyno gwaharddiad, ond dewisodd beidio â gwneud hynny.

The other point to make about this motion is that it calls for the ability to prohibit tobacco use in specified public buildings. That does not include all public places. The street or anywhere not falling within the legal definition of a building would not be included. Should this measure succeed, we would have to think hard about that and vigorously debate which public buildings we would specify. I can imagine that more controversy would surround certain public buildings than others. As Alun Pugh said earlier, those places not frequented by children need not be included. However, we are not deciding on those matters today. We are simply discussing the principle of whether we should have the means to do this or whether the power should remain at Westminster. It will come as no surprise that I favour us having the means to do this.

Y pwynt arall i’w nodi am y cynnig hwn yw ei fod yn galw am y gallu i wahardd y defnydd o dybaco mewn adeiladau cyhoeddus penodol. Nid yw hynny’n cynnwys pob man cyhoeddus. Ni fyddai’r stryd nac unrhyw le nad ydyw’n dod o fewn y diffiniad cyfreithiol o adeilad yn cael ei gynnwys. Pe bai’r mesur hwn yn llwyddo, byddai’n rhaid inni feddwl yn ddwys am hynny a thrafod yn frwd pa adeiladau cyhoeddus y byddem yn eu nodi’n benodol. Gallaf ddychmygu y byddai mwy o ddadlau ynghylch rhai adeiladau cyhoeddus arbennig nag eraill. Fel y dywedodd Alun Pugh yn gynharach, nid oes rhaid i’r mannau hynny na fydd plant yn mynd iddynt gael eu cynnwys. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn penderfynu ar y materion hynny heddiw. Trafod yn unig yr ydym yr egwyddor a ddylai fod gennym y modd i wneud hyn neu a ddylai’r pŵer aros yn San Steffan. Ni fydd yn peri syndod fy mod o blaid cael y modd i wneud hyn.

I also see great merit in prohibiting smoking in certain public places, on which we could decide in future. I used to smoke, and I recall the time when you were allowed to smoke in cinemas and on buses, although spitting was banned on buses. Other Members who are as old as me, or perhaps a little older, will also remember that. I remember people saying that we could never stop people smoking on buses and in cinemas and that a ban could never be enforced. However, it simply does not happen anymore because people have accepted that it is not allowed.

Hefyd gwelaf werth mawr mewn gwahardd ysmygu mewn rhai mannau cyhoeddus, y gallwn benderfynu arnynt yn y dyfodol. Arferwn ysmygu, a chofiaf yr amser pan oedd pobl yn gallu ysmygu mewn sinemâu ac ar fysiau, er bod gwaharddiad ar boeri ar fysiau. Bydd Aelodau eraill sydd mor hen â mi, neu efallai ychydig yn hŷn, hefyd yn cofio hynny. Cofiaf bobl yn dweud na fyddai’n bosibl o gwbl inni atal pobl rhag ysmygu ar fysiau ac mewn sinemâu, ac na ellid gorfodi gwaharddiad o gwbl. Fodd bynnag nid yw’n digwydd bellach oherwydd bod pobl wedi derbyn nad yw’n cael ei ganiatáu.

From my smoking days, I know that smokers tend to hang around together. They find comfort in each other’s company and before we provided a little room for them in this building they used to brave the wind and the rain and gather outside the back of the building. Looking at them from the window of my office, they did not conjure the image of glamour and sophistication that I imagined when I used to smoke.

O’r dyddiau pan oeddwn yn ysmygu, gwn bod ysmygwyr yn tueddu i gadw cwmni’i gilydd. Cânt gysur yng nghwmni’i gilydd a chyn inni ddarparu ystafell fechan iddynt yn yr adeilad hwn arferent orfod dioddef y gwynt a’r glaw ac ymgynnull yng nghefn yr adeilad. Wrth edrych arnynt o ffenestr fy swyddfa, nid oeddent yn portreadu’r ddelwedd hudol a soffistigedig a arferais ei dychmygu pan oeddwn yn ysmygu.

I am not completely against adult smoking. If people are aware of the terrible impact that smoking will have on their health—I must inform Alun that, when I gave up smoking, my health improved almost overnight—and the enormous cost involved and still decide to smoke, it is up to them. However, a visit to that little room may put you off. If the Plenary session gets too bad, Kirsty, you should peep around the door of the room; I can assure you that you would not start smoking again.

Nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu’n llwyr ysmygu gan oedolion. Os yw pobl yn ymwybodol o’r effaith ddifrifol a gaiff ysmygu ar eu hiechyd—rhaid imi egluro i Alun, pan roddais y gorau i ysmygu, gwellodd fy iechyd dros nos bron—a’r gost anferth gysylltiedig a’u bod yn parhau i benderfynu ysmygu, wedyn mater iddynt hwy yw hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddai ymweliad â’r ystafell fechan honno efallai’n eich troi yn erbyn ysmygu. Os bydd y Cyfarfod Llawn yn mynd yn drech na chi, Kirsty, dylech roi cipdrem y tu mewn i’r ystafell; gallaf eich sicrhau na fyddech yn ailddechrau ysmygu.

It is fair to tell smokers that they can carry on smoking if they so wish, but that they should do so in places other than those where we have asked them not to. I often visit Newport city centre where you can go to the indoor shopping centre for a cup of tea, as there is an area where you can eat and drink. Smoking is restricted to one corner—the same corner to which you are allowed to take pushchairs. The pushchairs and the smokers are confined to the same space, crammed together around the same four or five tables. That is madness. If we are serious about changing the attitude of young people, we should be prepared to take radical steps. This is the way forward.

Mae’n deg dweud wrth ysmygwyr y gallant barhau i ysmygu os dymunant wneud hynny, ond y dylent wneud hynny mewn mannau lle yr ydym wedi gofyn iddynt beidio ag ysmygu. Ymwelaf yn aml â chanol dinas Casnewydd lle gallwch fynd i’r ganolfan siopa dan do i gael cwpanaid o de, gan fod ardal lle gallwch fwyta ac yfed yno. Cyfyngir ysmygu i un gornel—yr un gornel ag y caniateir ichi fynd â chadair wthio. Cyfyngir y cadeiriau gwthio a’r ysmygwyr i’r un man, wedi eu gwthio at ei gilydd o amgylch yr un pedwar neu bum bwrdd. Mae hynny’n wallgofrwydd. Os ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â newid agweddau pobl ifanc, dylem fod yn barod i gymryd camau radical. Dyma’r ffordd ymlaen.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 76

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I will support the motion, as it is a sensible measure. As David Melding said, years from now, people will be astounded that we had this debate. It is not long ago that it was questioned whether smoking should be allowed on tube trains. Following the King’s Cross disaster it was banned almost overnight, not because of the discomfort of train users but for safety reasons. That would not be questioned now, and neither would smoking on trains or, as Jocelyn said, in cinemas and so on.

Cefnogaf y mesur gan ei fod yn un synhwyrol. Fel y dywedodd David Melding, yn y dyfodol, bydd pobl yn rhyfeddu ein bod wedi cael y ddadl hon. Nid oes amser hir ers i bobl amau a ddylid caniatáu ysmygu ar drenau tanddaearol. Ar ôl trychineb King’s Cross gwaharddwyd hynny bron dros nos, nid oherwydd bod ysmygu yn amharu ar ddefnyddwyr trenau ond am resymau diogelwch. Ni fyddai hynny’n cael ei amau erbyn hyn, nac ychwaith ysmygu ar drenau neu, fel y dywedodd Jocelyn, mewn sinemâu ac yn y blaen.

I agree with most of Alun Cairns’s political philosophy, but I cannot see how it would be difficult to enforce this ban. You must only visit countries such as Singapore to see how the ban is simply applied. If this were law, private organisations would abide by it in the same way as cinemas abide by the current rules. There would be no problem at all.

Cytunaf â’r rhan fwyaf o athroniaeth wleidyddol Alun Cairns, ond ni allaf weld sut y byddai’n anodd gorfodi’r gwaharddiad hwn. Nid oes ond rhaid ymweld â gwledydd megis Singapôr i weld sut y caiff ei roi ar waith yn hwylus. Pe bai hyn yn ddeddf, byddai cyrff preifat yn cadw ati yn yr un ffordd ag y mae sinemâu yn cydymffurfio â’r rheolau cyfredol. Ni fyddai unrhyw anhawster o gwbl.

David Davies ac Alun Cairns a gododd—

David Davies and Alun Cairns rose—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 76

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I will give way to one of you in a minute; you can sort out which one between you. I support the motion for two reasons. First, I support it because of the dangers of passive smoking, which are incontrovertible. The second reason—I address this to Peter Law as much as to other Members—has not been mentioned, namely to change our attitude towards smoking and to change the smoking ethos. If we can do anything to prevent children in the Valleys from smoking in future, we should seek to do this, Peter. If we can convey that message today, we should do so.

Ildiaf i un ohonoch mewn munud; gallwch ddatrys pa un rhyngoch eich dau. Cefnogaf y mesur am ddau reswm. Yn gyntaf, fe’i cefnogaf oherwydd peryglon ysmygu goddefol, sy’n ddiymwad. Yr ail reswm—cyfeiriaf hyn at Peter Law gymaint ag at Aelodau eraill—na soniwyd amdano, sef newid ein hagwedd tuag at ysmygu ac i newid ethos ysmygu. Os gallwn wneud unrhyw beth i atal plant yn y Cymoedd rhag ysmygu yn y dyfodol, dylem geisio gwneud hyn, Peter. Os gallwn gyfleu’r neges honno heddiw, dylem wneud hynny.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 77

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I have no issue with banning smoking on the underground because of the risks associated with smoking within such a confined space. However, in terms of practicality, how do you propose to control a ban on smoking if a restaurateur and other customers are happy for people to smoke in a restaurant? How would you enforce the ban and police it?

Nid oes gennyf broblem â gwahardd ysmygu ar y trenau tanddaearol oherwydd y risgiau sy’n gysylltiedig gydag ysmygu o fewn gofod mor gyfyng. Fodd bynnag, o ran ymarferoldeb, sut y cynigiwch reoli gwaharddiad ar ysmygu os bydd perchennog tŷ bwyta a chwsmeriaid eraill yn fodlon i bobl ysmygu mewn tŷ bwyta? Sut y byddech yn gorfodi gwaharddiad ac yn ei blismona?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 77

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

This is not the Wild West. Not many restaurateurs are determined to break the law. If a law exists, the great mass of restaurateurs will abide by it. People who do not abide by the law end up in court, but they are a minority. It is important that we support this motion today and that we act, as far as we can, with a unified voice. This motion is not subject to party arrangement, and there are genuine differences of opinion on it. However, it is an important move, and we should all support it for the two reasons that I gave.

Nid y gorllewin gwyllt mo hyn. Nid oes llawer o berchnogion tai bwyta yn benderfynol o dorri’r gyfraith. Os oes deddf mewn bodolaeth, bydd y rhan fwyaf o berchnogion tai bwyta yn cydymffurfio â hi. Mae pobl sy’n torri’r gyfraith yn gorfod mynd o flaen eu gwell yn y pen draw, ond lleiafrif ydynt. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cefnogi’r cynnig heddiw a’n bod yn gweithredu, mor bell â phosibl, gydag un llais. Nid yw’r cynnig hwn yn amodol ar drefniant pleidiol ac mae gwahaniaethau barn dilys ar y mater. Fodd bynnag, mae’n gam pwysig, a dylem i gyd ei gefnogi am y ddau reswm a roddais.

David Davies spoken in English p. 77

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I am also against smoking and I would not want to encourage people to smoke. I say that as someone who indulged in the habit for 15 years; I did not have any problems giving up. Kirsty, you should get down to the pub on the day after you have given up and get used to enjoying whatever you enjoy without a cigarette in your hand.

Yr wyf innau hefyd yn erbyn ysmygu ac ni fyddwn yn dymuno annog pobl i ysymygu. Dywedaf hynny fel un a fu’n gaeth i’r arfer am 15 mlynedd; ni chefais broblem o gwbl i roi’r gorau i ysmygu Kirsty, rhaid ichi fynd lawr i’r dafarn ar y dydd ar ôl ichi roi’r gorau i ysmygu ac ymgyfarwyddo â mwynhau beth bynnag a fwynhewch heb sigarét yn eich llaw.

Smoking is a dirty and dangerous habit that decreases people’s lifespan, and I support any reasonable measures that lead to a decline in the number of smokers. However, I am loath to support this motion because it will not encourage smokers to give up, but will make them feel like pariahs and, possibly, reinforce their determination not to be bullied by a nanny state.

Mae ysmygu yn arfer brwnt a pheryglus sy’n lleihau hyd oes pobl, a chefnogaf unrhyw fesurau rhesymol a fyddai’n arwain at ostyngiad yn nifer yr ysmygwyr. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn gyndyn i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn, oherwydd ni fydd yn annog pobl i roi’r gorau i ysmygu, ond gwnaiff iddynt deimlo eu bod yn esgymun, ac o bosibl, atgyfnerthu eu penderfyniad i beidio â chael eu bwlio gan y wladwriaeth faldodus.

Who will suffer as a result of these rules and regulations? It will be the landlords of village pubs, and the owners of the small cafes and restaurants, who will have to turn away customers or face swingeing penalties. As they contemplate these rules, they will surely conclude that the politicians who helped bring them about—if indeed they are—are guilty of gross hypocrisy. Alun Pugh, a Labour Government is moving towards the decriminalisation of cannabis at large-scale events such as the Notting Hill carnival. Government officials quietly tell the police not to move in and arrest anyone taking drugs. You have never suggested that the police should uphold the current laws that relate to smoking—albeit smoking a different substance—but you call for laws that will punish those who abide by the rules, and who are doing their best to make a living.

Pwy fydd yn dioddef o ganlyniad i’r rheolau a’r rheoliadau hyn? Landlordiaid tafarndai pentref, a pherchnogion caffis bach a thai bwyta, a fydd yn gorfod troi cwsmeriaid i ffwrdd neu wynebu cosbau llym. Wrth iddynt ystyried y rheolau hyn, byddant yn siŵr o ddod i’r casgliad bod y gwleidyddion a gynorthwyodd i ddod â hwy i fod—os yw’n wir eu bod—yn euog o ragrith difrifol. Alun Pugh, mae Llywodraeth Lafur yn symud tuag at anghyfreithloni canabis mewn digwyddiadau mawr megis carnifal Notting Hill. Mae swyddogion y Llywodraeth yn dweud yn dawel wrth yr heddlu am beidio ag arestio unrhyw un sy’n cymryd cyffuriau. Nid ydych erioed wedi awgrymu y dylai’r heddlu weithredu’r deddfau cyfredol sy’n ymwneud ag ysmygu—hyd yn oed a bod hynny’n ysmygu sylwedd gwahanol—ond galwch am gyfreithiau a fydd yn cosbi’r rhai sy’n cydymffurfio â’r rheolau, ac sy’n gwneud eu gorau i wneud bywoliaeth.

I am sorry to turn to Kirsty Williams again, but her party has supported the legalisation of all drugs for years. Under a Liberal administration—not that we are ever likely to see one—it would be perfectly legal to snort cocaine in your local cafe but an offence to light up a Regal King Size.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf droi at Kirsty Williams eto ond mae ei phlaid hi wedi cefnogi cyfreithloni pob cyffur ers blynyddoedd. O dan weinyddiaeth Ryddfrydol—er nad ydym fyth yn debyg o weld un—byddai’n berffaith gyfreithiol i gymryd cocên yn eich caffi lleol ond yn drosedd i danio Regal King Size.

Kirsty Williams a gododd—

Kirsty Williams rose—

David Davies spoken in English p. 78

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I will give way in a minute, but I have one more Member to go for.

Ildiaf mewn munud, ond mae gennyf un Aelod i fynd ar ei ôl.

As regards Dai Lloyd, at its last party conference, Plaid Cymru voted to legalise brothels. It is ironic that anyone who visits such establishments would be more at risk from the vice squad if they lit up a post-coital cigarette than from any activities that had taken place beforehand.

O ran Dai Lloyd, yn ei chynhadledd flynyddol ddiwethaf, pleidleisiodd Plaid Cymru dros gyfreithloni puteindai. Mae’n eironig bod unrhyw un sy’n mynychu tai o’r fath yn wynebu mwy o risg o gyfeiriad yr heddlu puteiniaeth pe baent yn tanio sigarét ar ôl cael cyfathrach nag y byddent o unrhyw weithgareddau cyn hynny.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 78

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I am sorry to interrupt such slapstick, because that is what it is. However, the Liberal Democrats have never proposed legalising cocaine sniffing. You should retract that comment.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf orfod torri ar draws y fath ffwlbri, oherwydd dyna ydyw. Fodd bynnag ni wnaeth y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gynnig cyfreithloni ffroeni cocên. Dylech dynnu’r sylw hwnnw’n ôl.

David Davies spoken in English p. 79

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Jenny Tonge MP has suggested that cocaine should be sold at outlets throughout the United Kingdom. Other leading Liberal Democrat politicians have also suggested that.

Awgrymodd Jenny Tonge AS y dylid gwerthu cocên mewn mannau ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Awgrymwyd hynny hefyd gan rai gwleidyddion blaenllaw eraill ymhlith y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 79

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Which politicians?

Pa wleidyddion?

David Davies spoken in English p. 79

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I have named one; I believe that Jenny Tonge suggested that. It was included in motions passed at Liberal Democrat conferences.

Enwais un; credaf mai Jenny Tonge a awgrymodd hynny. Yr oedd wedi ei gynnwys mewn cynigion a basiwyd yng nghynadleddau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

I turn to another item of hypocrisy. I am not against some aspects of a ban on cigarette consumption, particularly on public transport, because people do not usually have a choice as to whether or not they use it. However, we all have a choice as to whether or not we go into a pub or cafe. The landlord has a choice as to whether or not he or she wants a smoke-free pub or cafe, or smoke-free areas. The Wetherspoons chain have smoke-free areas, and why not? That is about freedom of choice.

Trof at eitem arall o ragrith. Nid wyf yn erbyn rhai agweddau ar waharddiad ar ysmygu yn arbennig ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, oherwydd fel arfer ni fydd gan bobl ddewis pa un a wnânt ei ddefnyddio ai peidio. Fodd bynnag, mae gan bob un ohonom ddewis a awn i mewn i dafarn neu gaffi. Mae gan y landlord ddewis a ydyw am i’r tafarn neu’r caffi fod yn ardal ddi-fwg neu gynnwys ardaloedd dim ysmygu. Mae gan dafarndai Weatherspoon ardaloedd dim ysmygu a pham lai? Mae hynny yn ymwneud â’r rhyddid i ddewis.

But what about council houses, Alun? There is never any mention of them. They are publicly owned property. It would be easy to draw up an agreement stating that people who wish to occupy council houses that are owned by the Government should not be allowed to smoke in them. That would help the children who lived in those houses. But, I do not suggest that. However, what I suggest—if Members would care to listen—is that I will not support inconsistent legislation that penalises some people, but not others, in the name of political correctness. I believe in choice, and in the fact that I should have the freedom to chose—so should everyone else. I say to the owners of small pubs, cafes and restaurants: ‘Do not worry because this Bill will never become legislation. The moment that that looks likely, someone from the tobacco industry will donate £1 million to New Labour and it will all be quietly shelved’.

Ond beth am dai cyngor, Alun? Nid oes fyth sôn amdanynt hwy. Maent hwy yn eiddo cyhoeddus. Byddai’n hawdd paratoi cytundeb yn datgan na ddylai pobl sy’n dymuno byw mewn tai cyngor sy’n eiddo’r Llywodraeth gael yr hawl i ysmygu ynddynt. Byddai hynny o gymorth i’r plant sy’n byw yn y tai hynny. Ond nid wyf yn cynnig hynny. Fodd bynnag yr hyn yr wyf yn ei awgrymu—pe bai Aelodau yn fodlon gwrando—yw na wnaf gefnogi deddfwriaeth anghyson sy’n cosbi rhai pobl, ond nid eraill, yn enw cywirdeb gwleidyddol. Credaf mewn dewis, ac yn y ffaith y dylwn gael yr hawl i ddewis—a dylai pawb arall hefyd. Dywedaf wrth berchnogion tafarndai a chaffis bach a thai bwyta: ‘Peidiwch â gofidio oherwydd ni ddaw’r Mesur hwn fyth yn ddeddf. Ar yr eiliad y bydd hynny’n edrych yn debygol, bydd rhywun o’r diwydiant tybaco yn cyfrannu £1 filiwn i Lafur Newydd a bydd y cyfan yn cael ei roi o’r neilltu’n dawel’.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 80

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

In some ways, I was hoping that there would not be enough time for me to speak. I am torn on this issue. I am against smoking: I hate it, and I hate being in smoky places. However, I have some concerns about what this motion calls for: a Wales-only opportunity of dealing with this issue. I would prefer that this issue was dealt with on a UK basis. Alun Pugh’s comments have reassured me to some extent. When I first read the motion, I immediately thought about pubs and clubs. They could pose a huge problem, as we do not have public support for a ban on smoking in those places. The evidence that has been gathered from other countries about the impact of a ban on businesses is conflicting. There could also be a problem with the pubs and clubs that are situated in the border areas of Wales: their patronage could drop if people decided to go across the border.

Ar un cyfrif, yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio na fyddai digon o amser imi siarad. Yr wyf mewn cyfyng gyngor ar y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn erbyn ysmygu: yr wyf yn ei gasáu, ac yn casáu bod mewn mannau myglyd. Fodd bynnag mae gennyf rai pryderon am yr hyn a eilw’r cynnig hwn amdano: cyfle i Gymru’n unig ymdrin â’r mater hwn. Byddai’n well gennyf pe baem yn ymdrin â’r mater hwn ar sail y DU. Mae sylwadau Alun Pugh wedi fy narbwyllo i ryw raddau. Pan ddarllenais y cynnig gyntaf, meddyliais ar unwaith am dafarndai a chlybiau. Gallent hwy fod yn broblem fawr, gan nad oes gennym gefnogaeth gyhoeddus dros waharddiad ar ysmygu yn y lleoedd hynny. Mae’r gwahanol dystiolaeth a gasglwyd o wledydd eraill am effaith gwaharddiad ar fusnesau yn gwrthddweud ei gilydd. Gallai hefyd fod problem gyda thafarndai a chlybiau sydd wedi eu lleoli ar ardaloedd o Gymru sy’n agos i’r ffin: gallai eu cefnogaeth ostwng pe bai pobl yn penderfynu croesi’r ffin.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 80

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

Can you wind up?

A allwch ddirwyn eich araith i ben?

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 80

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I have only been speaking for one minute.

Dim ond am un funud y bûm yn siarad.

I attended a meeting of 30 people last Friday night and they were split down the middle on the question of whether smoking should be banned. I find it difficult to decide on how to vote. My husband has told me that I should not dare to vote for this motion—he smokes on Friday and Monday nights at the local pub, and he and his fellow smokers are up in arms as to any suggestion that they could be stopped from smoking. But this motion is not about that. Whatever happens today, I hope that the media will report this debate honestly and describe it as it was. I hope that it will not say that we have voted to ban smoking in Wales forever. My daughter says that we should ban smoking from the planet, which is how I feel in my heart. We must weigh up the horrendous statistics on the deaths and diseases caused by passive smoking. I will have to go home tonight and look my husband in the eye and explain why I voted for this motion.

Mynychais gyfarfod o 30 o bobl nos Wener ddiwethaf ac yr oeddent hwy yn gwbl ranedig ar y cwestiwn a ddylid gwahardd ysmygu. Mae’n anodd imi benderfynu sut i bleidleisio. Dywedodd fy ngŵr wrthyf na ddylwn feiddio pleidleisio dros y cynnig—bydd yn ysmygu ar nosweithiau Gwener a Llun yn ei dafarn leol, ac mae ef a’i gydysmygwyr yn ddig iawn ynglŷn ag unrhyw awgrym y gallent gael eu hatal rhag ysmygu. Ond nid yw’r cynnig hwn ynglŷn â hynny. Beth bynnag a ddigwydd heddiw, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y cyfryngau roi adroddiadau cywir o’r ddadl a’i disgrifio yn union fel yr oedd. Gobeithiaf na fydd y cyfryngau yn dweud ein bod wedi pleidleisio i wahardd ysmygu yng Nghymru am byth. Dywed fy merch y dylem wahardd ysmygu o’r blaned a dyna fel y teimlaf innau yn fy nghalon. Rhaid inni bwyso a mesur yr ystadegau brawychus ar y marwolaethau a’r clefydau a achosir gan ysmygu goddefol. Bydd rhaid i mi fynd adref heno ac edrych i fyw llygad fy ngŵr ac esbonio pam y pleidleisiais dros y cynnig hwn.

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 81

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Like many other Members in this Chamber, I have always been drawn to the utilitarian principle that, so far as possible, the purpose of Government should be to promote the maximum happiness for the maximum number of people. I am therefore instinctively suspicious of people who want to ban things. We already have too many constraints on our liberty, and I am reluctant to see further limits imposed on what we may, or may not, do.

Fel sawl Aelod arall yn y Siambr hon, yr wyf bob amser wedi cael fy nenu at yr egwyddor iwtilitaraidd sef mai diben Llywodraeth, mor bell â phosibl yw hyrwyddo’r hapusrwydd mwyaf i’r nifer mwyaf o bobl. Felly yr wyf wrth reddf yn amheus o bobl sydd am wahardd pethau. Mae gennym ormod o gyfyngiadau ar ein rhyddid yn barod, ac yr wyf yn anfoddog i weld cyfyngiadau pellach yn cael eu gosod ar yr hyn a allwn ac na allwn ei wneud.

I have no doubt that people should have the freedom to smoke tobacco if they wish, irrespective of the harm that it does to their health—that is their choice. However, they should not have the right to exercise that freedom in circumstances where it affects the health or comfort of others without their consent. That is to prefer the liberties of smokers to those of non-smokers, which cannot be right. Therefore, despite all my libertarian instincts, and my reluctance to see any curtailments of individual liberties, I support the principle of prohibiting smoking in public places. I stress that I only support the principle: the details will need to be worked out. To reply briefly to David Davies’s point, there is no reason for not having smoking and non-smoking pubs, so that, if people want to exercise choice, they could visit a smoking pub. It goes against the grain, but I support this motion.

Nid wyf yn amau y dylai pobl gael y rhyddid i ysmygu tybaco os dymunant, er gwaetha’r niwed a wna i’w hiechyd—dyna eu dewis. Fodd bynnag ni ddylent gael yr hawl i arfer y rhyddid hwnnw mewn amgylchiadau lle mae’n effeithio ar iechyd neu gysur eraill heb eu caniatâd. Mae hynny’n ffafrïo hawliau ysmygwyr ar draul hawliau pobl nad ydynt yn ysmygu, ac ni all hynny fod yn iawn. Felly, er gwaethaf fy holl reddfau rhyddfrydig a’m hanfodlonrwydd gydag unrhyw gyfyngu ar ryddid yr unigolyn, cefnogaf egwyddorion gwahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Pwysleisiaf mai dim ond cefnogi’r egwyddor a wnaf: bydd rhaid i’r manylion gael eu datrys. I roi ateb byr i bwynt David Davies, nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na ellir cael tafarnau i ysmygwyr a thafarnau lle na chaniateir ysmygu, fel gall pobl, os ydynt am arfer eu dewis, fynychu tafarn i ysmygwyr. Mae’n groes i’m greddf ond cefnogaf y cynnig hwn.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 81

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Today’s debate has focused our attention on an important public health issue, and I thank Members for their contributions. The previous Plenary debate on this subject in October 1999, recognised that smoking is a major preventable cause of illness and premature death in Wales. The Assembly has provided £2 million for a comprehensive programme of action to discourage young people from starting to smoke and to provide support for smokers who want to give up. In recent years, scientific evidence on the adverse effects of passive smoking has grown.

Mae dadl heddiw wedi canolbwyntio ein sylw ar fater iechyd cyhoeddus pwysig, a diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Cydnabu’r ddadl flaenorol ar y mater hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yn Hydref 1999, fod ysmygu yn un o’r prif achosion salwch a marwolaethau cynamserol y gellid eu hosgoi. Darparodd y Cynulliad £2 filiwn ar gyfer rhaglen gynhwysfawr o weithredu i ddarbwyllo pobl ifanc rhag dechrau ysmygu ac i roi cefnogaeth i ysmygwyr sy’n dymuno rhoi’r gorau i’r arfer. Yn y blynyddoedd diweddar mae tystiolaeth wyddonol ar effeithiau drwg ysmygu goddefol wedi tyfu.

The British Medical Association’s report on smoke-free public places, which I welcomed last November, provides a powerful summary of this evidence. One of the report’s recommendations was that awareness of the risks associated with passive smoking should be raised. We have already taken action on that by raising public awareness of the risks and, particularly, of the potential adverse affects on children’s health. I am glad that Nick Bourne mentioned that. The campaign that I launched last October aimed at informing pregnant women and parents who smoked in the home about the dangers of passive smoking.

Mae adroddiad Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain ar leoedd cyhoeddus di-fwg, a groesewais fis Tachwedd diwethaf, yn grynodeb nerthol o’r dystiolaeth hon. Un o argymhellion yr adroddiad oedd y dylid codi ymwybyddiaeth o’r risgiau sy’n gysylltiedig ag ysmygu goddefol. Yr ydym eisoes wedi gweithredu ar hynny drwy godi ymwybyddiaeth o’r risgiau ac, yn arbennig, yr effeithiau drwg posibl ar iechyd plant. Yr wyf yn falch fod Nick Bourne wedi sôn am hynny. Anelodd yr ymgyrch a gyhoeddais fis Hydref diwethaf at hysbysu menywod beichiog a rhieni a ysmygai yn eu cartref am beryglon ysmygu goddefol.

The focus of today’s discussion is on smoking in public places. As has been said, legislation to ban smoking in public places is a matter for the UK Government. It does not currently consider a universal ban on smoking in public places to be justified. While there is a prospect of making progress in partnership with industry, future legislation has not been ruled out, Jocelyn. However, it is felt that achieving change through voluntary approaches, such as those that Peter Law and Alun Cairns proposed, need to be given a chance first, though we know of the concerns about the extent to which they will work.

Mae ffocws trafodaeth heddiw ar ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Fel y dywedwyd mae deddfwriaeth i wahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus yn fater i Lywodraeth y DU. Nid yw ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried fod cyfiawnhad dros wahardd ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus yn llwyr. Er bod gobaith Jocelyn, i wneud cynnydd mewn partneriaeth â diwydiant, nid yw’r posibilrwydd o lunio deddfwriaeth yn y dyfodol wedi ei wrthod yn llwyr. Fodd bynnag, teimlir bod newid drwy dulliau gwirfoddol, fel y rhai a gynigiwyd gan Peter Law ac Alun Cairns yn haeddu cael cyfle yn gyntaf, er ein bod yn gwybod am y pryderon ynglŷn â’u hymarferoldeb.

One measure to reduce passive smoking that has been widely canvassed is the Health and Safety Commission’s proposal for an approved code of practice on smoking in the workplace. The Assembly has supported that proposal, and the UK Government is currently considering it; I have spoken with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Public Health, Hazel Blears about it. The Department of Health has asked the commission to consider further the implications of an approved code of practice for the hospitality sector and for small businesses generally. We must take these discussions forward in a spirit of partnership.

Un mesur i leihau ysmygu goddefol sydd wedi’i drafod yn eang yw cynnig y Comisiwn Iechyd a Diogelwch am god ymarfer wedi ei gymeradwyo ar ysmygu yn y gweithle. Cefnogodd y Cynulliad y cynnig hwnnw, ac mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ei ystyried ar hyn o bryd; siaredais gyda Hazel Blears Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol yr Adran Iechyd Cyhoeddus amdano. Gofynnodd yr Adran Iechyd i’r comisiwn ystyried ymhellach oblygiadau cymeradwyo cod ymarfer i’r sector arlwyo ac i fusnesau bach yn gyffredinol. Rhaid inni barhau â’r trafodaethau hyn mewn ysbryd o bartneriaeth.

Today’s motion calls for the Assembly to seek powers that will enable us to take appropriate steps to limit smoking in public places in Wales. Complex issues have already been aired, and need to be addressed if we are to take that step. It is vital, for example, that we learn from the experience of other countries that have legislated to ban smoking. As Alun Pugh said, it is important that any legislation is preceded by a public information campaign, to ensure that people are aware of the reasons for the smoking restrictions. While there is general awareness that smoking is bad for health, much more needs to be done to make the public aware of the particular risks posed by passive smoking. We have made a start, but a more comprehensive campaign is required.

Geilw cynnig heddiw ar y Cynulliad i geisio pwerau a fydd yn ein galluogi i gymryd camau priodol i gyfyngu ar ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Trafodwyd materion cymhleth yn barod, ac mae angen mynd i’r afael â hwy os ydym i gymryd y cam hwnnw. Mae’n hollbwysig er enghraifft, ein bod yn dysgu oddi wrth brofiad gwledydd eraill sydd wedi deddfu i wahardd ysmygu. Fel y dywedodd Alun Pugh, mae’n bwysig bod unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth yn cael ei rhagflaenu gan ymgyrch wybodaeth gyhoeddus i sicrhau fod pobl yn ymwybodol o’r rhesymau dros y cyfyngiadau ar ysmygu. Er bod ymwybyddiaeth gyffredinol bod ysmygu yn ddrwg i iechyd, mae angen gwneud llawer mwy i wneud y cyhoedd yn ymwybodol o risgiau arbennig sy’n cael eu peri gan ysmygu goddefol. Yr ydym wedi dechrau, ond mae angen ymgyrch fwy cynhwysfawr.

A further key issue is the need for a staged approach as was taken in California. Smoking restrictions were successfully implemented there following a high-profile media programme to raise awareness and change public attitudes. Anti-smoking legislation was applied in stages across different sectors—restrictions on smoking in bars were introduced three years after introducing them in restaurants. We have mentioned different restrictions for pubs and restaurants this afternoon. It is an important lesson, because evidence from UK public opinion surveys consistently shows that restrictions on smoking in workplaces, restaurants and on public transport generally receive the highest level of public support, while restrictions on pubs have the lowest.

Mater arall allweddol yw’r angen am ymagwedd fesul cam fel y gwnaed yng Nghaliffornia. Rhoddwyd cyfyngiadau ysmygu ar waith yn llwyddiannus yn dilyn rhaglen broffil uchel yn y cyfryngau i godi ymwybyddiaeth a newid agweddau’r cyhoedd. Gweithredwyd deddfwriaeth gwrth-ysmygu fesul cam ar draws nifer o sectorau—cyflwynwyd cyfyngiadau ar ysmygu mewn bariau dair blynedd ar ôl eu cyflwyno mewn tai bwyta. Soniwyd gennym am wahanol gyfyngiadau ar gyfer tafarndai a thai bwyta y prynhawn yma. Mae’n wers bwysig oherwydd bod tystiolaeth gyson o’r arolygon barn o’r cyhoedd yn y DU yn dangos fod cyfyngiadau ar ysmygu yn y gweithle, mewn tai bwyta ac ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn gyffredinol yn cael y gefnogaeth fwyaf gan y cyhoedd, er bod cyfyngiadau mewn tafarnau yn cael y gefnogaeth leiaf.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 83

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

Jane, will you finish, please?

Jane, a wnewch orffen os gwelwch yn dda?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 83

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

In conclusion, if this proposal were supported, it would be vital for the Assembly to consult widely and to listen to the views of different sectors. As you say, Alun, we need to work with the sway of public opinion in Wales. Today’s debate has been lively as it is a free vote and, as Minister for Health and Social Services, I look forward to the outcome in terms of the response that I am to take forward.

I gloi, pe cefnogid y cynnig hwn, byddai’n hollbwysig i’r Cynulliad ymgynghori’n eang ac i wrando ar farn gwahanol sectorau. Fel y dywedwch, Alun, rhaid inni weithio yn ôl ymchwydd y farn gyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Bu dadl heddiw yn fywiog gan ei bod yn bleidlais rydd ac fel y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, edrychaf ymlaen at y canlyniad o ran yr ymateb a roddaf ar waith.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 83

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

Thank you, Jane. I apologise for interrupting you. I now call Dai Lloyd to wind up. Dai, you must finish by 4.59 p.m.. [AN ASSEMBLY MEMBER: ‘Oh.’] I am sorry, we must abide by our Standing Orders.

Diolch Jane. Ymddiheuraf am dorri ar eich traws. Yn awr galwaf ar Dai Lloyd i gloi. Dai bydd yn rhaid ichi orffen erbyn 4.59 pm.. [AELOD CYNULLIAD: ‘O’] Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, rhaid inni lynu wrth y Rheolau Sefydlog.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 84

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I will cut to the chase. I thank Members for their valuable contributions, even those briefed by their tobacco companies. In Wales, smoking causes 7,000 deaths. Passive smoking causes lung cancer and ischaemic heart disease in people who do not smoke—that is the fundamental issue. Banning smoking in public buildings works in other countries around the globe: the USA; Canada; Finland, and recently, Norway. Society’s attitudes are changing; we are now a majority of non-smokers. Priorities need to be skewed towards non-smokers. Think about it: inhaling other people’s smoke, as a non-smoker, gives you the nasty diseases that smoking causes in the first place; passive smoking causes lung cancer. If you drink alcohol, your drinking does not cause illness in anybody else who does not drink. If you eat chocolate, you do not give somebody who does not eat chocolate an illness because you are eating it.

Dof at y mater dan sylw ar unwaith. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau gwerthfawr, hyd yn oed y rheini a gafodd eu briffio gan eu cwmnïau tybaco. Yng Nghymru, mae ysmygu yn achosi 7,000 o farwolaethau. Mae ysmygu goddefol yn achosi canser o’r ysgyfaint a chlefydau ischaemig y galon ymhlith pobl nad ydynt yn ysmygu—dyna’r mater allweddol. Mae gwahardd ysmygu mewn adeiladau cyhoeddus yn gweithio mewn gwledydd eraill ar draws y byd: yr Unol Daleithiau; Canada; Ffindir, ac yn ddiweddar, Norwy. Mae agweddau cymdeithas yn newid, yr ydym yn y mwyafrif yn awr fel rhai nad ydynt yn ysmygu. Mae angen i flaenoriaethau gael eu cyfeirio at y rhai nad ydynt yn ysmygu. Meddyliwch amdani: mae anadlu mwg pobl eraill, fel un nad yw’n ysmygu yn rhoi’r clefydau cas y mae ysmygu yn eu hachosi yn y lle cyntaf; mae ysmygu goddefol yn achosi canser o’r ysgyfaint. Os yfwch alcohol nid yw eich yfed yn achosi afiechyd i unrhyw un arall nad yw’n yfed. Os ydych yn bwyta siocled, nid ydych yn rhoi afiechyd i rywun nad sy’n bwyta siocled oherwydd eich bod chi yn ei fwyta.

The voluntary code is not working; the evidence is here. Please support the motion. As Jocelyn and others said, this is about us having the power to decide. It marks an important first step in starting to address the phenomenal health burden of smoking. Then we can begin to tackle the annual slaughter of our people. Let Wales lead the way in the United Kingdom.

Nid yw’r cod gwirfoddol yn gweithio; mae’r dystiolaeth yma. Cefnogwch y cynnig os gwelwch yn dda. Fel y dywedodd Jocelyn ac eraill, nod y cynnig hwn yw cael y pŵer i benderfynu. Mae’n nodi’r cam cyntaf pwysig i fynd i’r afael â baich aruthrol ysmygu ar iechyd. Yna gallwn ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r lladdfa flynyddol ar ein pobl. Gadewch i Gymru arwain y ffordd yn y Deyrnas Unedig.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Thank you, Dai, that was most expeditious. I thank Members for being succinct. Everybody has had an opportunity to speak except one Member and he knows who he is. He will have an excellent chance of catching my eye the next time he wants to make a contribution.

Diolch ichi Dai, yr oedd hynny’n sydyn iawn. Diolchaf i aelodau am fod mor gryno. Cafodd pawb gyfle i siarad ar wahân i un Aelod a gŵyr ef pwy ydyw. Caiff gyfle ardderchog i ddal fy llygad y tro nesaf y bydd am wneud cyfraniad.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 10

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Dafydd Elis-Thomas
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (10)
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Janice Gregory
  • Edwina Hart
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Effaith Bosibl yr Argyfwng Rhyngwladol ar Wasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng Nghymru

The Potential Effect of the International Crisis on Public Services in Wales

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 85

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 85

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle hwn i osod gerbron y Cynulliad y mater mwyaf difrifol sydd yn ein hwynebu fel gwlad ac fel cenedl, ac, o bosibl, fel byd, sef difrifoldeb yr argyfwng rhyngwladol. Mae gan hynny oblygiadau o safbwynt gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

I am grateful for this opportunity to present before the Assembly the most serious issue that faces us as a country and as a nation, and, possibly, as a world, namely the gravity of the international crisis. That has implications for public services in Wales.

Mae Mick Bates am gyfrannu, er na allaf ei weld.

Mick Bates wishes to contribute, although I cannot see him.

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 86

Mick Bates spoken in Welsh p. 86

Yr wyf yma.

I am here.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 86

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh and English p. 86

Yr oeddwn yn chwilio amdanoch yn rhes flaen y Llywodraeth, Mick.

in Welsh I was looking for you on the Government front row, Mick.

Os bydd rhywun arall am ddal fy llygad cyn diwedd fy nghyfraniad, bydd amser ar gael.

in Welsh If anyone else wishes to catch my eye before the end of my contribution, there will be time available.

Mae’r mater hwn yn un llawer rhy ddifrifol i gael ei drin fel gwleidyddiaeth plaid. Gwn ein bod oll, ar draws ffiniau pleidiol, yn erfyn na fydd rhyfel ag Irac, ac y gellir datrys y problemau hyn heb arllwys gwaed. Mae tystiolaeth ddigonol bod pobl Cymru, fel gwerinbobloedd gweddill yr ynysoedd hyn, yn gwrthwynebu rhyfel. Yn ôl pôl yr wythnos hon, mae dros 80 y cant o’r bobl yn erbyn ymosodiad ar Irac heb i’r Cenhedloedd Unedig roi cefnogaeth ffurfiol i hynny, ac mae 40 y cant yn erbyn rhyfel o dan unrhyw amgylchiadau. Mae sylwadau Simon Weston yn arbennig o ddadlennol yn y cyd-destun hwn. O’m profiad i wrth siarad â phobl yn fy etholaeth, nid oes fawr neb yn cefnogi rhyfel. Mae pôl y Daily Post echdoe yn dangos y gwrthwynebiad cryf ymysg Aelodau Seneddol Cymru.

in Welsh This matter is far too serious to be treated as party politics. I know that we all, across party lines, are hoping that there will not be a war with Iraq, and that these problems can be resolved without bloodshed. There is ample evidence that the people of Wales, in common with ordinary people in other parts of these islands, are opposed to war. According to a poll this week, over 80 per cent of the people are opposed to an attack on Iraq without formal support from the United Nations, and 40 per cent are against war under any circumstances. Simon Weston’s comments are particularly revealing in this context. From my experience of talking with people in my constituency, not many people support war. The Daily Post poll the day before yesterday shows strong opposition among Welsh Members of Parliament.

Nid yw pobl Cymru wedi eu hargyhoeddi bod Irac yn peri bygythiad sylweddol i’r byd, pa mor atgas bynnag yw Llywodraeth Saddam Hussein. Nid ydynt yn gweld bod gan America a Phrydain yr hawl i ymosod heb ganiatâd y Cenhedloedd Unedig, na sut y bydd y byd yn ddiogelach ar ôl rhyfel o’r fath. Ni allant lai na chredu mai’r awch i fynd un cam yn well na’i dad sydd yn gyrru Bush bach, ac mai rheoli cyflenwadau olew yw prif gymhelliad ei Lywodraeth.

in Welsh The people of Wales have not been persuaded that Iraq poses a significant threat to the world, however repulsive Saddam Hussein’s Government may be. They do not believe that America and Britain have the right to attack without the United Nation’s consent, nor do they see how the world will be a safer place after such a war. They cannot but believe that it is the eagerness to go one step further than his father that drives Bush junior, and that controlling the oil supplies is his Government’s main motivation.

Sylweddolaf nad gennym ni fel Cynulliad y mae’r penderfyniad dros fynd i ryfel. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym yr hawl i siarad ar ran pobl Cymru, i ddatgan eu pryderon a’u gofidiau, ac i fynegi eu gwrthwynebiad i ryfel. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb dros agweddau ymarferol ar fywyd pobl Cymru—o ran y gwasanaeth iechyd, trafnidiaeth, llywodraeth leol, tai ac iechyd amgylcheddol. Effeithir ar yr holl faterion hyn gan oblygiadau unrhyw ryfel. Mae’r cyfrifoldebau hyn hefyd yn berthnasol pe bai ymosodiadau terfysgol, boed y rheini ar Gymru neu ar unrhyw ran o Brydain. Mae’n berffaith resymol, felly, ein bod yn codi’r cwestiynau hyn. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom, ar draws ffiniau plaid, i wneud hynny. Mae cyfrifoldeb ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ystyried pob bygythiad i ddiogelwch ein pobl, ac i godi llais yn erbyn unrhyw bolisïau sy’n cynyddu’r bygythiadau hynny.

in Welsh I realise that the decision to go to war is not ours, as an Assembly. However, we have the right to speak on behalf of the people of Wales, to express their worries and concerns, and to state their opposition to war. We have a responsibility for practical aspects of the lives of the people of Wales—in terms of the health service, transport, local government, housing and environmental health. All these matters will be affected by the implications of any war. These responsibilities are also relevant in the event of terrorist attacks, whether they be on Wales or on any part of Britain. It is perfectly reasonable, therefore, that we raise these questions. It is our duty, across party lines, to do so. The Government of Wales has a responsibility to consider all threats to our people’s safety, and to raise its voice against any policies that increase those threats.

I have stressed what I perceive to be the widespread opposition of a majority of Welsh people to any war against Iraq, and the overwhelming opposition to any attack without the express resolution of the United Nations for such action. I hope that Rhodri Morgan has already conveyed such sentiments to Prime Minister Blair. If he has not done so, I beg him to make his voice heard before the momentum towards war becomes unstoppable. It will be difficult to do so once the fighting starts, when there will be a sentiment of not letting our troops down. In any case, by then it will be too late. Now is the time to raise our voices as individuals, political parties and as a people to make it abundantly clear that war is not acceptable as a policy option in the twenty-first century.

yn Saesneg Pwysleisiais yr hyn a gredaf yw gwrthwynebiad helaeth y rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru i unrhyw ryfel yn erbyn Irac, a’r gwrthwynebiad unfrydol i unrhyw ymosodiad heb gefnogaeth bendant y Cenhedloedd Unedig i gamau o’r fath. Gobeithiaf fod Rhodri Morgan wedi cyfleu teimladau o’r fath eisoes i’r Prif Weinidog Blair. Os na wnaeth hynny, erfyniaf arno i leisio ei farn tra bod cyfle i atal y momentwm tuag at ryfel. Bydd yn anodd gwneud hynny unwaith y bydd yr ymladd yn dechrau, gan y bydd teimlad bod yn rhaid i ni gefnogi ein milwyr. Pa un bynnag, bydd yn rhy hwyr erbyn hynny. Dyma’r amser i leisio ein barn fel unigolion, pleidiau gwleidyddol ac fel cenedl er mwyn ei gwneud yn gwbl glir nad yw rhyfel yn opsiwn polisi derbyniol yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

The justification of an attack on Iraq is to root out weapons of mass destruction, but are there not weapons of mass destruction held on Welsh soil, and training facilities in Wales for the use of nuclear or chemical weapons such as stores of depleted uranium weaponry? The logic that allows America to believe that it has the right to attack Iraq unilaterally because it may have weapons of mass destruction is also the logic of those we consider to be terrorists, who may attack locations in Wales for the same reason. The demonstrations that have taken place in Wales this week at military locations have highlighted these perils and have underlined our ignorance about weapons held on Welsh soil. They have reminded the Government of Wales of the danger of attacks on such sites and of its responsibility to minimise the threat to the people of Wales in every way possible.

yn Saesneg Y cyfiawnhad dros ymosod ar Irac yw cael gwared ar arfau dinistr, ond oni chedwir arfau dinistr ar dir Cymru, ac onid oes cyfleusterau hyfforddi yng Nghymru ar gyfer defnyddio arfau niwclear a chemegol megis storfeydd o arfau wraniwm prin? Y rhesymeg sy’n caniatáu i America gredu bod ganddi’r hawl i ymosod ar Irac yn unochrog gan y gallai fod ganddi arfau dinistr yw rhesymeg y rhai yr ystyriwn sy’n derfysgwyr, a allai ymosod ar leoliadau yng Nghymru am yr un rheswm. Amlygodd y gwrthdystiadau a gynhaliwyd yng Nghymru yr wythnos hon mewn lleoliadau milwrol y peryglon hyn, gan danlinellu ein hanwybodaeth ynghylch arfau a gedwir ar dir Cymru. Maent wedi atgoffa Llywodraeth Cymru am y perygl o ymosodiadau ar safleoedd o’r fath ac o’i chyfrifoldeb i leihau’r bygythiad i bobl Cymru ym mhob ffordd bosibl.

The future of our world must be based on a framework of international law, and our actions must be morally justifiable. However, whether we go to war or not, we face the real threat of terrorist attacks, and I believe that terrorism will increase dramatically as a consequence of any such war, and we shall all be vulnerable. Therefore the Government of Wales must urgently address the implications of terrorism for the people of Wales and take the necessary action to safeguard their wellbeing.

yn Saesneg Rhaid i ddyfodol ein byd fod yn seiliedig ar fframwaith o gyfraith ryngwladol, a rhaid gallu cyfiawnhau ein gweithredoedd yn foesol. Fodd bynnag, p’un a fyddwn yn mynd i ryfel ai peidio, yr ydym yn wynebu bygythiad gwirioneddol o ymosodiadau terfysgol, a chredaf y bydd terfysgaeth yn cynyddu’n ddramatig o ganlyniad i unrhyw ryfel o’r fath, a byddwn i gyd yn ddiamddiffyn. Felly dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ymdrin ar fyrder â goblygiadau terfysgaeth i bobl Cymru a chymryd y camau angenrheidiol i ddiogelu eu lles.

What threats am I talking about? The attacks on the Twin Towers on 9/11 are testament to the extremes to which terrorists will go. Crashing an aircraft into the Wylfa, Hinkley Point B or Sellafield power stations would cause devastation for large parts of Wales. It is Westminster’s responsibility to prevent such action, but the duty to cope with its aftermath rests partly with us. Has the Government of Wales faced up to this and all its implications for healthcare, housing and civil order? London is well aware of the danger of suicide bomber attacks on buses or an anthrax attack on the tube, but are we ready in Cardiff, Wrexham, Swansea or Newport? What guidelines have been issued to our local authorities? What equipment has been put at their disposal? What resources have been allocated for such eventualities? A report in the Wales on Sunday recently suggested that only five of Wales’s 22 unitary authorities have drawn up emergency plans for such attacks. What lead is the Assembly Government giving to them? What extra resources in terms of medicine, staff and bed space has been provided for our hospitals? Has Jane Hutt worked out and discussed emergency powers? What advice has been given to the public authorities that may lose key personnel if they are called up as reservists? Has Edwina Hart made new resources available to replace them? What additional capacity is being planned for our ambulance and fire services? For goodness sake, at this time particularly, let us settle the fire service strike once and for all. What steps are being taken to safeguard Wales’s reservoirs against poisoning? Have Sue Essex, Dŵr Cymru and the police discussed this? What will happen if attacks on conurbations in Cardiff, Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham lead to a flood of refugees into rural Wales? Are there plans for emergency shelters or feeding centres? Has Rhodri Morgan discussed with the four chief constables of Wales the implications of the draft legislation that Westminster is currently considering for such circumstances, which is pretty draconian and needs to be worked out? What if there are attacks on electricity networks? Has alternative power provision been considered? To put it simply, is there a plan or is the Government of Wales leaving it to local authorities and police forces? If so, it might note the comments of Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council’s spokesman, Bill Jenkins, who said in the Wales on Sunday on 12 January:

yn Saesneg Am ba fygythiadau yr wyf yn siarad? Mae’r ymosodiadau ar y Ddau Dŵr ar 9/11 yn dystiolaeth o’r eithafion yr aiff terfysgwyr iddynt. Byddai taro awyren i mewn i orsafoedd ynni y Wylfa, Hinkley Point B neu Sellafield yn achosi dinistr i rannau helaeth o Gymru. Cyfrifoldeb San Steffan yw atal camau o’r fath, ond ein dyletswydd ni yn rhannol yw ymdopi â’r canlyniadau. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi wynebu hyn a’i holl oblygiadau ar gyfer gofal iechyd, tai a threfn sifil? Mae Llundain yn gwbl ymwybodol o’r perygl o ymosodiadau gan fomwyr sy’n cyflawni hunanladdiad ar fysys neu ymosodiad anthracs ar y tiwb, ond a ydym yn barod yng Nghaerdydd, Wrecsam, Abertawe neu Gasnewydd? Pa ganllawiau a roddwyd i’n hawdurdodau lleol? Pa offer a roddwyd iddynt eu defnyddio? Pa adnoddau a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer digwyddiadau posibl o’r fath? Awgrymodd adroddiad diweddar yn y Wales on Sunday mai dim ond pump allan o’r 22 awdurdod unedol yng Nghymru sydd wedi llunio cynlluniau brys ar gyfer ymosodiadau o’r fath. Pa arweiniad y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei roi iddynt? Pa adnoddau ychwanegol o ran meddyginiaethau, staff a gwelyau a ddarparwyd yn ein hysbytai? A yw Jane Hutt wedi gweithio allan a thrafod pwerau brys? Pa gyngor a roddwyd i awdurdodau cyhoeddus y gallant golli staff allweddol pe gelwid arnynt fel milwyr wrth gefn? A yw Edwina Hart wedi darparu adnoddau newydd i gymryd eu lle? Pa gapasiti ychwanegol a gynllunnir ar gyfer ein gwasanaethau ambiwlans a thân? Er mwyn popeth, ar yr adeg hon yn arbennig, gadewch inni setlo streic y gwasanaeth tân unwaith ac am byth. Pa gamau a gymerir i ddiogelu cronfeydd dŵr Cymru rhag cael eu gwenwyno? A yw Sue Essex, Dŵr Cymru a’r heddlu wedi trafod hyn? Beth fydd yn digwydd pe bai ymosodiadau ar gytrefi yng Nghaerdydd, Lerpwl, Manceinion neu Birmingham yn arwain at lif o ffoaduriaid i gefn gwlad Cymru? A oes cynlluniau ar gyfer llochesi brys neu ganolfannau bwydo? A yw Rhodri Morgan wedi trafod goblygiadau’r ddeddfwriaeth ddrafft y mae San Steffan yn ei hystyried ar gyfer amgylchiadau o’r fath, sy’n eithaf llym ac sydd angen ei gweithio allan, gyda phedwar prif gwnstabl Cymru? Beth fyddai’n digwydd pe bai ymosodiadau ar rwydweithiau trydan? A ystyriwyd darparu pŵer amgen? Yn syml, a oes cynllun neu a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn gadael hyn i awdurdodau lleol a heddluoedd? Os felly, efallai yr hoffai ystyried sylwadau Bill Jenkins, llefarydd ar ran Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Merthyr Tudfil, a ddywedodd yn y Wales on Sunday ar 12 Ionawr:

‘There is no special plan for dealing with terrorist attacks or acts of warfare and there is not likely to be one.’

yn Saesneg Nid oes cynllun arbennig ar gyfer ymdrin ag ymosodiadau terfysgol neu ryfel ac nid yw’n debygol y bydd cynllun yn bodoli.

A spokesperson for Bridgend County Borough Council said:

yn Saesneg Dywedodd llefarydd ar ran Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr:

‘In the event of a large-scale emergency we have a joint plan alongside Swansea, Neath and Port Talbot.’

yn Saesneg Pe bai argyfwng ar raddfa fawr mae gennym gynllun ar y cyd ag Abertawe, Castell Nedd a Phort Talbot.

Unfortunately, that was news to the Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council spokesman who said:

yn Saesneg Yn anffodus, yr oedd hynny’n newyddion i lefarydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell Nedd Port Talbot a ddywedodd:

‘We do not have a specific plan for dealing with war and there is not going to be one in the foreseeable future.’

yn Saesneg Nid oes gennym gynllun penodol ar gyfer ymdrin â rhyfel ac ni fydd cynllun yn y dyfodol rhagweladwy.

Therefore, there is total confusion on the consequences of war for Wales. While the UK Government and its American shot-callers actively mobilise for war, those responsible for local service delivery deserve a better lead from our Government.

yn Saesneg Felly, mae dryswch llwyr ynghylch goblygiadau rhyfel i Gymru. Tra bod Llywodraeth y DU ac arweinwyr Llywodraeth America wrthi’n paratoi ar gyfer rhyfel, mae’r rhai sy’n gyfrifol am ddarparu gwasanaethau lleol yn haeddu gwell arweiniad gan ein Llywodraeth.

All this may put the fear of God in all of us, and you may say that this is scaremongering; perhaps so. However, perhaps it is necessary to shock our nation into realising the full implications of war. If you think this is frightening for Wales, imagine what the people of Iraq face. Countless thousands of innocent women and children face the full horrors of modern warfare in their communities, on their streets and in their homes because of a policy of aggression actively canvassed by the American Government and, tragically, supported by Britain.

yn Saesneg Efallai fod hyn oll yn codi arswyd ar bob un ohonom, a gallech ddweud mai codi bwganod yw hyn; efallai fod hynny’n wir. Fodd bynnag, efallai bod angen dychryn ein cenedl er mwyn iddynt ddeall goblygiadau llawn rhyfel. Os credwch fod hyn yn codi ofn ar bobl Cymru, dychmygwch yr hyn y mae pobl Irac yn ei wynebu. Mae miloedd ar filoedd o ferched a phlant diniwed yn wynebu erchyllterau dulliau rhyfela modern yn eu cymunedau, ar eu strydoedd ac yn eu cartrefi oherwydd polisi ymosodol a arddelir gan Lywodraeth America ac a gefnogir, yn anffodus, gan Brydain.

The time has come to be counted. The Assembly, as Wales’s constitutional conscience, has a moral duty to speak out against war and all its horrors. Let us unite across party lines to make our voices heard.

yn Saesneg Daeth yr amser i sefyll dros ein hegwyddorion. Mae gan y Cynulliad, fel cydwybod gyfansoddiadol Cymru, ddyletswydd foesol i wrthwynebu rhyfel a’i holl erchyllterau. Gadewch inni uno ar draws y pleidiau i leisio ein barn.

Mae’n unfed awr ar ddeg arnom. Os caniateir rhyfel, byddwn yn byw â’r canlyniadau am ddegawdau. Byddwn yn polareiddio’r byd, gan osod America a’r cŵn bach sy’n ei dilyn yn erbyn mwyafrif helaeth trigolion gweddill y byd. Byddwn yn hau hadau casineb rhwng pobl o wahanol liw, hil a chrefydd yma yng Nghymru. Yn enw pob rheswm a synnwyr, codwn ein llais fel cenedl. Yn enw cyfiawnder a thrugaredd, codwn ein llais fel byd yn erbyn y fath gyflafan.

in Welsh The eleventh hour is upon us. If war is sanctioned, we will have to live with the consequences for decades. We will polarise the world, setting America and its poodles against the vast majority of the rest of the world’s population. We will sow the seeds of hatred between people of different colour, race and religion here in Wales. In the name of reason and common sense, we must raise our voice as a nation. In the name of justice and compassion, we must raise our voice as a world against such carnage.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 90

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I am grateful to Dafydd for choosing this topic for the short debate. We must understand two fundamental issues. The sanctions currently imposed on Iraq have already killed 500,000 people. Rhodri Glyn Thomas, David Melding, Richard Edwards and myself tabled a statement of opinion on this issue; I tabled it on behalf of a constituent who is currently travelling to Iraq. I encourage Members who have not signed it to do so. Twenty-seven Members have already signed the statement, which calls on the Assembly to lobby the Government to ensure that the United Nations implements resolution 1441 and lifts the sanctions against Iraq on humanitarian grounds. I am glad that Dafydd recognised that an attack on Iraq will increase the risk of terrorism. As Welsh representatives, we must be aware of the state of readiness of our public services. I asked the First Minister about this last week, and although he gave a satisfactory answer, we must be reassured that we are prepared for increased terrorism if there is an attack on Iraq. I fear that, with the build-up of troops, people are accepting that war is inevitable. The question remains unanswered as to why we should kill innocent people in Iraq for the sake of a bully called Bush.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Dafydd am ddewis y pwnc hwn ar gyfer y ddadl fer. Rhaid inni ddeall dau fater sylfaenol. Mae’r gwaharddiadau ar Irac ar hyn o bryd eisoes wedi lladd 500,000 o bobl. Mae Rhodri Glyn Thomas, David Melding, Richard Edwards a minnau wedi cyflwyno datganiad barn ar y mater hwn; cyflwynais ef ar ran etholwr sy’n teithio i Irac ar hyn o bryd. Anogaf Aelodau nad ydynt wedi ei lofnodi i wneud hynny. Mae 27 o Aelodau wedi llofnodi’r datganiad eisoes, sy’n galw ar y Cynulliad i lobïo’r Llywodraeth er mwyn sicrhau bod y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn gweithredu penderfyniad 1441 a chodi’r gwaharddiadau ar Irac ar sail dyngarol. Yr wyf yn falch fod Dafydd wedi cydnabod y bydd ymosodiad ar Irac yn cynyddu’r perygl o derfysgaeth. Fel cynrychiolwyr o Gymru, rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o barodrwydd ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Gofynnais i’r Prif Weinidog ynghylch hynny yr wythnos diwethaf, ac er iddo roi ateb boddhaol, rhaid inni gael sicrwydd ein bod wedi paratoi ar gyfer cynnydd mewn terfysgaeth pe bai ymosodiad ar Irac. Oherwydd nifer y milwyr a anfonwyd i Irac eisoes, ofnaf fod pobl yn derbyn bod rhyfel yn anochel. Mae’r cwestiwn yn parhau heb ei ateb o ran pam y dylem ladd pobl ddiniwed yn Irac er mwyn bwli o’r enw Bush.

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 91

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I am impressed, as ever, by the quality of the debate and the points that have been made, although I may not agree with everything that has been said. I cannot reply on behalf of the Government on the international situation in Iraq, as it is not a devolved matter. The Government per se does not have a policy on whether there should be a war—the view of the Assembly as a body is a separate issue—because it is a non-devolved issue. Therefore, I cannot reply on whether there should be a war against Iraq. However, I have made public my own views on this.

Crëwyd argraff arnaf, yn ôl yr arfer, gan safon y ddadl a’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd, er nad wyf efallai yn cytuno â phopeth a ddywedwyd. Ni allaf ateb ar ran y Llywodraeth ar y sefyllfa ryngwladol yn Irac, gan nad yw’n fater a ddatganolwyd. Nid oes polisi gan y Llywodraeth fel y cyfryw ar ba un a ddylid mynd i ryfel ai peidio—mae barn y Cynulliad fel corff yn fater ar wahân—gan nad yw’n fater a ddatganolwyd. Felly, ni allaf ateb ar ba un a ddylid mynd i ryfel yn erbyn Irac ai peidio. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi datgan fy marn fy hun yn gyhoeddus am hyn.

What concerns the Welsh Assembly Government is not whether there will be a war or the morality of such a war, but its possible effect on Wales. That is the central question that is asked of us. It is difficult to predict the implications of the international crisis for Wales. There is little to indicate whether a war against or in Iraq would become an issue of domestic significance in Wales. We are unable to judge with confidence what the effects would be; I do not think that anyone can. However, all public services will continue to develop continuity plans in the face of any disruption. In general, a potential war in Iraq would not provide new challenges to the plans that have been made to deliver public services in Wales.

Yr hyn sydd a wnelo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ag ef yw nid a fydd rhyfel yn digwydd na moesoldeb rhyfel o’r fath, ond ei effaith bosibl ar Gymru. Dyna yw’r cwestiwn canolog a ofynnir i ni. Mae’n anodd rhagweld goblygiadau’r argyfwng rhyngwladol i Gymru. Nid oes llawer i ddynodi pa un a fyddai rhyfel yn erbyn neu yn Irac yn dod yn fater o arwyddocâd cartref yng Nghymru. Ni allwn farnu yn hyderus beth fyddai’r effeithiau; ni chredaf y gall unrhyw un wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd pob gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn parhau i ddatblygu cynlluniau parhad yn wyneb unrhyw ymyriad. Yn gyffredinol, ni fyddai’r posibilrwydd o ryfel yn Irac yn cynnig heriau newydd i’r cynlluniau a wnaethpwyd i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

The full impact on public services of a call-up of territorial army personnel who are based in Wales is difficult to forecast. There are no specific details available on the numbers and backgrounds of the people concerned. There may be concerns about the implications of using medical staff, as some military reservists work as physicians, surgeons and general practitioners. If there is a war in Iraq, the information that we have received indicates that around 200 health workers would be involved in a call-up. However, that is the figure for the whole of the UK, as we do not have the figures for Wales. It is likely that a small number of Welsh NHS staff would be involved. In those circumstances, the specialist skills of those called up will be the important factor. Trusts have measures to maintain, as far as possible, the continuity of healthcare in the event of reservists being called up, as a part of their normal contingency planning. That is a possibility that has been taken into account and, since 11 September 2001, the Assembly has continued to work closely with the Department of Health and other UK health departments to examine and improve health resilience, which includes how to deal with mass casualties.

Mae’n anodd rhagweld effaith lawn galw ar filwyr y fyddin diriogaethol a leolir yng Nghymru ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nid oes manylion penodol ar gael ar niferoedd a chefndir y bobl dan sylw. Gallai fod pryderon ynghylch goblygiadau defnyddio staff meddygol, gan fod rhai milwyr wrth gefn yn gweithio fel meddygon, llawfeddygon a meddygon teulu. Os bydd rhyfel yn Irac, dynoda’r wybodaeth a dderbyniasom y bydd tua 200 o weithwyr iechyd yn cael eu galw. Fodd bynnag, dyna yw’r ffigur ar gyfer y DU gyfan, gan nad oes gennym y ffigurau ar gyfer Cymru. Mae’n debygol y byddai nifer fach o staff GIG Cymru yn cael eu galw. O dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, sgiliau arbenigol y rhai a elwir fydd y ffactor pwysig. Cyn belled ag y bo modd, mae gan ymddiriedolaethau fesurau i sicrhau parhad gofal iechyd pe bai milwyr wrth gefn yn cael eu galw, fel rhan o’u cynlluniau wrth gefn arferol. Mae hynny’n bosibilrwydd a ystyriwyd ac, ers 11 Medi 2001, parhaodd y Cynulliad i weithio’n agos â’r Adran Iechyd ac adrannau iechyd eraill yn y DU i archwilio a gwella gwytnwch y gwasanaethau iechyd, sy’n cynnwys sut i ymdrin â nifer fawr o bobl ag anafiadau.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 92

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

The night before last, I was talking to a constituent who is a reservist. He is a senior bank manager and has recently combated six months of cancer treatment. He has received his papers, and he cannot be the only one in Wales to have received them. People who provide services from across Wales—not only in the public sector, but also in the private sector—will be away. Do you have any news, or anything that I can tell him?

Echnos, yr oeddwn yn siarad ag etholwr sy’n filwr wrth gefn. Mae’n uwch reolwr banc ac wedi ymdopi’n ddiweddar â chwe mis o driniaeth canser. Mae wedi derbyn ei bapurau, ac mae’n debyg nad ef yw’r unig un yng Nghymru i’w derbyn. Bydd pobl sy’n darparu gwasanaethau ledled Cymru—nid yn unig yn y sector cyhoeddus, ond yn y sector preifat hefyd—oddi cartref. A oes gennych unrhyw newyddion, neu unrhyw beth y gallaf ddweud wrtho?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 92

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

If you are a military reservist, or part of the TA, you must expect to be called up. In my opinion, you cannot complain about that. It is something that you do voluntarily; no one is forcing you to act, as we do not have compulsory national service. That is something you must accept if you are a part-time soldier, or if you have, perhaps, left the forces. It is a different matter if you have a health problem. I am sorry to hear of your constituent’s problems. However, in general, I do not think that it can be a cause of complaint if someone chooses to be militarily trained and is then called up. That is the risk of the job.

Os ydych yn filwr wrth gefn, neu’n rhan o’r Fyddin Diriogaethol, dylech ddisgwyl cael eich galw. Yn fy marn i, ni allwch gwyno am hynny. Mae’n rhywbeth a wnewch yn wirfoddol; nid oes neb yn eich gorfodi i weithredu, gan nad oes gennym wasanaeth cenedlaethol gorfodol. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’n rhaid ichi ei dderbyn os ydych yn filwr rhan amser, neu os ydych, efallai, wedi gadael y lluoedd arfog. Mae’n fater gwahanol os oes gennych broblem iechyd. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf glywed am broblemau eich etholwr. Fodd bynnag, ar y cyfan, ni chredaf fod lle i gwyno pe bai rhywun yn dewis cael hyfforddiant milwrol ac wedyn yn cael ei alw. Dyna yw risg y swydd.

The possible deployment of British troops for military action in Iraq could impact on the armed forces’ ability to provide cover for the fire service during further strikes. However, the Ministry of Defence is confident that any deployment of troops would not dilute its level of service in that regard. It is intended that military cover will be the same as for the previous strikes. In terms of appliances, the service will be slightly enhanced by the deployment of 16 Red Goddesses and a larger reserve of Green Goddesses in Wales.

Gallai anfon milwyr Prydain i weithredu’n filwrol yn Irac effeithio ar allu’r lluoedd arfog i ddarparu cymorth wrth gefn i’r gwasanaeth tân yn ystod streiciau pellach. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn yn hyderus na fyddai anfon milwyr i Irac yn lleihau lefel ei gwasanaeth yn hynny o beth. Y bwriad yw y bydd y cymorth milwrol wrth gefn yr un peth ag yr oedd ar gyfer streiciau blaenorol. O ran offer, ehangir y gwasanaeth rywfaint drwy ddefnyddio 16 o Dduwiesau Coch a chronfa fwy o Dduwiesau Gwyrdd yng Nghymru.

We should be aware that the possibility of war in Iraq may increase the number of people seeking asylum in Wales. It will increase the workload of local authorities regarding social services, housing and education. As well as the need to house asylum seekers, there will be an increase in demand on local education authorities to meet the needs of children whom the Home Office may disperse. If that were the case it would become necessary to increase the asylum grant accordingly. Again, it is difficult to determine the size of the effect on Wales. However, we are aware of the issue and we have made plans to deal with it.

Dylem fod yn ymwybodol y gallai’r posibilrwydd o ryfel yn Irac gynyddu’r nifer o bobl a fydd yn ceisio lloches yng Nghymru. Bydd yn cynyddu baich gwaith awdurdodau lleol o ran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, tai ac addysg. Yn ogystal â’r angen i ddarparu cartrefi i geiswyr lloches, bydd cynnydd yn y galw ar awdurdodau addysg lleol i ddiwallu anghenion plant y gallai’r Swyddfa Gartref eu lleoli. Pe bai hynny’n digwydd byddai’n rhaid cynyddu’r grant lloches yn unol â hynny. Unwaith eto, mae’n anodd penderfynu ar faint yr effaith ar Gymru. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r mater ac yr ydym wedi gwneud cynlluniau i ymdrin ag ef.

There is a potential for disruption to oil supplies on which we rely so heavily, as we know from experience. Currently the problem that is causing disruption to world oil supplies is in Venezuela, and it is inevitable that a war against Iraq will lead to further pressure, if not a physical decrease, in the amount of available oil. The UK Government has developed plans to control problems with the supply of fuel, based on the lessons learned during the fuel crisis of September 2000. In Wales, operational plans have been developed between the police and local authorities, and the national plan has been agreed, which will ensure that public services receive the necessary fuel to continue with their functions.

Mae posibilrwydd yr amherir ar y cyflenwadau olew y dibynnwn gymaint arnynt, fel y gwyddom o brofiad. Ar hyn o bryd mae’r broblem sy’n amharu ar gyflenwadau olew y byd yn Venezuela, ac mae’n anochel y bydd rhyfel yn erbyn Irac yn arwain at bwysau pellach, os nad dirywiad ffisegol, yn swm yr olew sydd ar gael. Datblygodd Llywodraeth y DU gynlluniau i reoli problemau gyda’r cyflenwad tanwydd, yn seiliedig ar y gwersi a ddysgwyd yn ystod yr argyfwng tanwydd ym mis Medi 2000. Yng Nghymru, datblygwyd cynlluniau gweithredol rhwng yr heddlu ac awdurdodau lleol, a chytunwyd ar y cynllun cenedlaethol, a fydd yn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn derbyn y tanwydd angenrheidiol i barhau â’u swyddogaethau.

There is no available evidence to suggest that a conflict would have a significant impact on the economy. However, in the event of any military dispute in the middle east, some effect is inevitable, and we must be aware of that.

Nid oes tystiolaeth ar gael i awgrymu y byddai rhyfel yn cael effaith sylweddol ar yr economi. Fodd bynnag, pe bai anghydfod milwrol yn digwydd yn y dwyrain canol, mae rhywfaint o effaith yn anochel, a dylem fod yn ymwybodol o hynny.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 93

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

What is the cost of sending 30,000 troops abroad?

Beth yw’r gost o anfon 30,000 o filwyr dramor?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 93

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

There is clearly a significant cost involved in such an undertaking. Any military action is expensive and that is why—[Interruption.]

Yn amlwg mae cost sylweddol yn gysylltiedig â phroses o’r fath. Mae unrhyw weithredu milwrol yn ddrud a dyna pam—[Torri ar draws.]

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 94

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

Order. Only one Member at a time should speak.

Trefn. Dim ond un Aelod ddylai siarad ar y tro.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 94

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

We are fortunate in that we do not have to pay for that directly from our block grant. We are not in the situation of other countries, where a military call-up causes severe problems to the economy, because the size of the British army is comparatively small, given the size of Britain’s population. That is inevitable, given that we no longer have the colonial duties that we once had.

Yr ydym yn ffodus nad ydym yn gorfod talu am hynny yn uniongyrchol o’n grant bloc. Nid ydym yn yr un sefyllfa â gwledydd eraill, lle mae galw ar filwyr yn achosi problemau difrifol i’r economi, gan fod maint byddin Prydain yn gymharol fach, o gofio maint poblogaeth Prydain. Mae hynny’n anochel, o gofio nad oes gennym yr un dyletswyddau gwladychol ag yr oedd gennym ar un adeg.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 94

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 94

Gwyddoch fod deddfwriaeth ddrafft i roi pwerau sylweddol ychwanegol i’r heddlu, i ymdrin â ffoaduriaid o’r dinasoedd a symud pobl i gefn gwlad pe bai ymosodiadau terfysgol, o dan ystyriaeth yn Llundain. A ydych wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau ynglŷn â’r goblygiadau pellach i’r mater hwn, megis eu cartrefu a’u bwydo?

You will be aware that draft legislation to give significant additional powers to the police, to deal with refugees from the cities and moving people to the countryside in the case of terrorist attacks, is being considered in London. Have you had any discussions about the further implications of this matter, such as housing and feeding those people?

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 94

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 94

Mae’r mater hwnnw dan ystyriaeth. Gallaf ddweud bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi bod yn rhan o’r ymgynghori ar ddeddfwriaeth, felly cafwyd mewnbwn o Lywodraeth y Cynulliad.

in Welsh That matter is under consideration. The Assembly Government has been part of the consultation on the draft legislation, so there has been input from the Assembly Government.

We must remember that emergency planning is not generally a devolved matter. Rightly or wrongly, that is a fact. Therefore, the UK Government will lead on this matter. However, the Assembly Government continues to work closely with the emergency services, local authorities, health authorities and other emergency planning organisations to strengthen the resilience of services in Wales. That means that integrated emergency planning has benefited from the creation of the multi-agency, all-Wales emergency working group, which has developed national emergency co-ordination arrangements. These arrangements are designed to handle what are termed as disruptive challenges—a euphemism for anything from a small problem to a massive attack. At the local level, joint agency groups, established in each police force area in Wales, work together to develop operational plans to deal locally with problems for public services in their areas. On Monday, the Local Government Partnership Council endorsed proposals to create a high-level group on emergency planning, chaired by the Finance Minister. A group has been established to ensure good communication and to enhance emergency planning across agencies and services in Wales at a strategic level. If there are difficulties in terms of local authorities not communicating fully with each other, the purpose of this group is to ensure that those problems are ironed out. That is one reason why it was set up.

yn Saesneg Rhaid inni gofio nad yw cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau yn fater a ddatganolwyd ar y cyfan. Yn gam neu’n gymwys, mae hynny’n ffaith. Felly, Llywodraeth y DU fydd yn arwain ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn parhau i weithio’n agos â’r gwasanaethau brys, awdurdodau lleol, awdurdodau iechyd a sefydliadau cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau eraill er mwyn cryfhau gwytnwch gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Golyga hynny fod cynllunio integredig ar gyfer argyfyngau wedi elwa ar y gwaith o greu gweithgor argyfyngau aml-asiantaeth, Cymru gyfan, sydd wedi datblygu trefniadau cydlynu argyfyngau cenedlaethol. Bwriad y trefniadau hyn yw ymdrin â’r hyn a elwir yn heriau aflonyddol—sef gair teg am unrhyw beth sy’n amrywio o broblem fach i ymosodiad anferth. Yn lleol, mae cydgrwpiau asiantaethol, a sefydlwyd ym mhob ardal heddlu yng Nghymru, yn cydweithio i ddatblygu cynlluniau gweithredol i ymdrin yn lleol â phroblemau ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn eu hardaloedd. Ddydd Llun, cymeradwyodd y Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol gynigion i greu grŵp lefel uchel o gynllunio brys, dan gadeiryddiaeth y Gweinidog Cyllid. Sefydlwyd grŵp i sicrhau cyfathrebu da a gwella cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau ar draws asiantaethau a gwasanaethau yng Nghymru ar lefel strategol. Os oes anawsterau o ran awdurdodau lleol yn peidio â chyfathrebu yn llawn â’i gilydd, diben y grŵp hwn yw sicrhau y caiff y problemau hynny eu datrys. Dyna un o’r rhesymau pam y cafodd ei sefydlu.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 95

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I am grateful for information about planning. However, I am sure that you recognise that a decision to launch a military attack may be made in a few weeks’ time, and, therefore, the issue of emergency plans is timely. If only a small number of local authorities in Wales have draft plans, are you not concerned that military action might begin before plans are in place? Although this is not a devolved matter, do you not share my concern about the delay in getting those plans in place? Will you ensure that the Government Ministers in London who are responsible for these matters ensure that plans are put into place quickly?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am wybodaeth ynghylch cynllunio. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sicr eich bod yn sylweddoli y gellir gwneud penderfyniad i lansio ymosodiad milwrol mewn ychydig wythnosau, ac, felly, mae’n amserol cyhoeddi cynlluniau ar gyfer argyfyngau. Os mai dim ond nifer fechan o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru sydd â chynlluniau drafft, onid ydych yn bryderus y gallai gweithredu milwrol gychwyn cyn bod cynlluniau ar waith? Er nad yw hwn yn fater datganoledig, oni rannwch fy mhryder ynghylch yr oedi o ran rhoi’r cynlluniau hynny ar waith? A wnewch chi sicrhau bod Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth yn Llundain sy’n gyfrifol am y materion hyn yn sicrhau y rhoddir cynlluniau ar waith yn gyflym?

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 95

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Emergency planning has been a function of government for many years. Local authorities are not suddenly being told that they must make provision for emergency planning. They have always had that role. It is simply a matter of updating that provision as and when time allows. I do not want to give the impression that emergency planning is at the design and draft stage. There are plans in place, and Members will understand that it is not possible to reveal the full extent of those plans for various reasons, including security. However, it is not the case that this has only been thought of recently. From time to time plans need to be updated. That is a natural process. We are working closely with the UK Government, as the lead body, and take seriously our responsibility to ensure that the majority of our people are protected for the maximum amount of time. You can never provide guarantees: we are all aware of 11 September and the attack on the World Trade Center. We can strive to minimise the risk. The Assembly and the UK Governments are doing that.

Bu cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau yn un o swyddogaethau llywodraeth ers blynyddoedd lawer. Nid yw fel pe bai awdurdodau lleol yn cael eu hysbysu’n annisgwyl bod yn rhaid iddynt wneud darpariaeth ar gyfer cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau. Bu’r rôl honno ganddynt erioed. Mater o ddiweddaru’r ddarpariaeth honno pan fo amser yn caniatáu ydyw. Nid wyf am roi’r argraff fod cynllunio ar gyfer argyfyngau yn y broses o gael ei gynllunio a’i ddrafftio. Mae cynlluniau ar waith, a bydd Aelodau yn deall nad yw’n bosibl datgelu’r cynlluniau hynny’n llawn am amryw o resymau, gan gynnwys diogelwch. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n wir dweud mai dim ond yn ddiweddar y meddyliwyd am hyn. Mae angen diweddaru cynlluniau o bryd i’w gilydd. Proses naturiol yw hynny. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos â Llywodraeth y DU, fel y corff arweiniol, ac yn cymryd ein cyfrifoldeb o ddifrif i sicrhau y caiff y rhan fwyaf o’n pobl eu diogelu am y rhan fwyaf o’r amser. Ni allwch byth roi sicrwydd llwyr: gwyddom i gyd am 11 Medi a’r ymosodiad ar Ganolfan Masnachu y Byd. Gallwn wneud ein gorau i leihau’r risg. Mae’r Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y DU yn gwneud hynny.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 96

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

You said that the Government here is responsible for the situation in Wales and that you do not have responsibility for foreign policy, but you are also a member of the Labour Party. Presumably you have discussions with colleagues in London about these matters. Can you explain the link between the events of 11 September, Iraq and Al-Quaeda? I cannot see it.

Dywedasoch mai’r Llywodraeth yn y fan hyn sy’n gyfrifol am y sefyllfa yng Nghymru ac nad oes gennych gyfrifoldeb dros bolisi tramor, ond yr ydych hefyd yn aelod o’r Blaid Lafur. Yr wyf yn cymryd eich bod wedi cael trafodaethau â chyd-aelodau yn Llundain ynghylch y materion hyn. A allwch egluro’r cysylltiad rhwng digwyddiadau 11 Medi, Irac ac Al-Quaeda? Ni allaf ei weld.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 96

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

As a Government, we are not called upon to answer that question. We all know the arguments for and against taking action against Iraq. Iraq is a country where an unstable dictator is in charge of weapons of mass destruction and has used those weapons on his own people. That is a fact. Whether you go on to say that that justifies taking military action is a moot point. We could discuss that at length, but it would not be right for me to do that when I am speaking on behalf of the Government. Members are welcome to ask me for my personal view, but I am speaking on behalf of the Government at the moment. There is evidence suggesting that Iraq is involved in promoting terrorist groups outside its borders. It is not alone in that.

Fel Llywodraeth, nid oes galw arnom i ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. Gwyddom i gyd y dadleuon o blaid ac yn erbyn gweithredu yn erbyn Irac. Gwlad yw Irac lle mae unben ansad yn gyfrifol am arfau dinistr, a defnyddiodd yr arfau hynny ar ei bobl ei hun. Mae hynny’n ffaith. Mae pa un a fyddech yn mynd ymlaen i ddweud bod hynny’n cyfiawnhau cymryd camau milwrol yn bwynt dadleuol. Gallem drafod hynny yn helaeth, ond ni fyddai’n briodol imi wneud hynny pan wyf yn siarad ar ran y Llywodraeth. Mae croeso i’r Aelodau fy holi am fy marn bersonol, ond siaradaf ar ran y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd. Ceir tystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu bod Irac yn hyrwyddo grwpiau terfysgol y tu allan i’w ffiniau. Nid yw ar ei phen ei hun yn hynny o beth.

I am aware of the views and concerns of my constituents regarding the threat of conflict. In an ideal world, there would not be conflict. Ideally, in this situation, the full backing of the United Nations would be welcome. However, we do not live in an ideal world; matters move on swiftly and, as a result, actions may be taken in a way that, in an ideal world, would not be what we would hope for. Information is available to the British and US Governments that we do not have. We must, however, ensure that if conflict does occur, people understand the reasons for it. Speaking in the capacity that I do today, I can say no more than that.

Gwn am farn a phryderon fy etholwyr ynghylch y bygythiad o wrthdaro. Mewn byd delfrydol, ni fyddai gwrthdaro. Yn ddelfrydol, yn y sefyllfa hon, byddai cefnogaeth lawn y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn cael ei chroesawu. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn byw mewn byd delfrydol; mae pethau’n symud yn eu blaen yn gyflym ac, o ganlyniad, gellir cymryd camau mewn ffordd a fyddai, mewn byd delfrydol, yn wahanol i’r hyn y byddem wedi ei obeithio. Mae gwybodaeth ar gael i Lywodraethau Prydain a’r Unol Daleithiau nad yw ar gael i ni. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl yn deall y rhesymau os bydd rhyfel yn digwydd. Ni allaf ddweud mwy na hynny wrth siarad heddiw yn rhinwedd fy swydd.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 97

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

Dafydd Wigley referred to the impact that the international crisis is having on black and ethnic minority citizens, and Muslims in particular, in Wales. In my constituency, Muslims were spat at outside a mosque and had so-called anti-terrorist slogans shouted at them. What is being done, with the police, to monitor attacks? Are you considering that with the police and ethnic communities? From anecdotal evidence, I know that Muslims feel under pressure and I know that you would want to address that.

Cyfeiriodd Dafydd Wigley at yr effaith a gaiff yr argyfwng rhyngwladol ar ddinasyddion du a lleiafrifoedd ethnig, a Mwslemiaid yn arbennig, yng Nghymru. Yn fy etholaeth i, poerwyd ar Fwslemiaid y tu allan i fosg a gwaeddwyd sloganau gwrth-derfysgol bondigrybwyll arnynt. Beth sy’n cael ei wneud, gyda’r heddlu, i fonitro ymosodiadau? A ydych yn ystyried hynny gyda’r heddlu a chymunedau ethnig? O dystiolaeth anecdotaidd, gwn fod Mwslemiaid yn teimlo o dan bwysau a gwn y byddech am ymdrin â hynny.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 97

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

I welcome the opportunity to emphasise that we are a diverse society. Everyone who lives in Wales is Welsh; everyone who lives in Britain is British. It is important that people who are of a different religion, such as Muslims, are not seen as being the enemy within. I welcome the opportunity to state that. Let us hope that there is not a war.

Croesawaf y cyfle i bwysleisio ein bod yn gymdeithas amrywiol. Mae pawb sy’n byw yng Nghymru yn Gymry; Prydeinwyr yw pawb sy’n byw ym Mhrydain. Mae’n bwysig na chaiff pobl sydd â chrefydd wahanol, megis Mwslemiaid, eu hystyried fel y gelyn oddi mewn. Croesawaf y cyfle i ddatgan hynny. Gadewch inni obeithio na fydd rhyfel.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 97

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.27 p.m.

The session ended at 5.27 p.m.