Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 28 Ionawr 2003

Tuesday 28 January 2003

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:29

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Ethol i Bwyllgor y TŷElection to the House Committee 1 bleidlais1 vote
  2. 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif WeinidogQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 3Pecynnau Gofal CartrefDomiciliary Care Packages
    2. 6‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’‘Plan for Wales 2001’
    3. 9Lefelau Cyflogaeth yng Nghymoedd y DeLevel of Employment in the South Wales Valleys
    4. 12Etholaeth OgwrOgmore Constituency
    5. 14Rhyfel Posibl yn erbyn IracPossible War with Iraq
    6. 17Cynhyrchu Dur ar Safle Allied Steel and Wire GyntSteel Production at the former Allied Steel and Wire Site
    7. 19Datblygu Economaidd mewn Ardaloedd GwledigEconomic Development in Rural Areas
    8. 22Polisi IechydHealth Policy
    9. 23Ffigurau Diweithdra Diweddaraf ar gyfer CymruLatest Unemployment Figures for Wales
    10. 25Y DU yn Aelod o’r Undeb EwropeaiddUK Membership of the European Union
  3. 28Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
    1. 28Adroddiad DEFRADEFRA Report
  4. 35Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  5. 35Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  6. 38Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  7. 39Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Strategaethau Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Trefniadau Gweithrediaeth Awdurdodau Lleol (Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Trefniadau Amgen) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Health, Social Care and Well-being Strategies (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Authorities Executive Arrangements (Functions and Responsibilities) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the Local Authorities (Alternative Arrangements) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
  8. 53Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  9. 56Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Swyddogaethau) (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Sefydlu) (Cymru) 2003 a Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Cyfansoddiad, Aelodaeth a Gweithdrefnau) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Local Health Boards (Functions) (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Health Boards (Establishment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and the Local Health Boards (Constitution, Membership and Procedures) (Wales) Regulations 2003 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
  10. 77Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  11. 79Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 80Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party) 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
    1. 80Pwerau i YsgolionPowers for Schools 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Ethol i Bwyllgor y TŷElection to the House Committee
Cynnig NDM1301Motion NDM13012000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Strategaethau Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Trefniadau Gweithrediaeth Awdurdodau Lleol (Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Trefniadau Amgen) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Health, Social Care and Well-being Strategies (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Authorities Executive Arrangements (Functions and Responsibilities) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the Local Authorities (Alternative Arrangements) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003
Cynnig NDM1302Motion NDM130233110DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1303Motion NDM130332110DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1310Motion NDM13104400DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1311Motion NDM13114100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1312Motion NDM13124600DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1313Motion NDM13134700DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Swyddogaethau) (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Sefydlu) (Cymru) 2003 a Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Cyfansoddiad, Aelodaeth a Gweithdrefnau) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Local Health Boards (Functions) (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Health Boards (Establishment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and the Local Health Boards (Constitution, Membership and Procedures) (Wales) Regulations 2003
Cynnig NDM1304Motion NDM130428022DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1305Motion NDM130528021DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1306Motion NDM130628022DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1307Motion NDM130729022DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1308Motion NDM130829022DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1309Motion NDM130929020DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders
Cynnig cyfansawdd NDM1314Composite motion NDM131441101DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion5100DerbyniwydAdopted
Pwerau i YsgolionPowers for Schools
Gwelliant 1Amendment 130021DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion29021DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Ethol i Bwyllgor y Tŷ

Election to the House Committee

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 3

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Cynnig NDM1301 Carwyn Jones t. 3

Motion NDM1301 Carwyn Jones p. 3

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog

Questions to the First Minister

Pecynnau Gofal Cartref

Domiciliary Care Packages

Q1 David Melding spoken in English p. 3

C1 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

How many people in Wales received domiciliary care packages in the latest year for which figures are available? (OAQ21937)

Faint o bobl yng Nghymru a dderbyniodd becynnau gofal cartref yn y flwyddyn ddiweddaraf y mae gennym ffigurau ar ei chyfer? (OAQ21937)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

During the year ending 31 March 2002, 82,000 people were supported by local authorities with community-based services compared with 23,100 who received their support through care in a residential setting. Some people would have received both types of care during the year and the total number of supported clients is 99,500.

Yn ystod y flwyddyn a ddaeth i ben ar 31 Mawrth 2002, cafodd 82,000 o bobl eu cynorthwyo gan awdurdodau lleol drwy gyfrwng gwasanaethau yn y gymuned o’i gymharu â 23,100 a gynorthwywyd drwy ofal mewn lleoliad preswyl. Byddai rhai wedi derbyn y ddau fath o ofal yn ystod y flwyddyn a chyfanswm y nifer o gleientiaid a gynorthwywyd yw 99,500.

David Melding spoken in English p. 4

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I asked a specific question, and you could have been ill-advised, but domiciliary care is a specialist area relating to those who are helped in their homes. The figures that you have just presented do not relate to that. In 1999, 29,000 people were helped; in the latest year for which I have figures—2001—that had fallen to 26,000 and I wonder whether it has fallen further in 2002. Do you agree that this goes against the fundamental objective of care in the community?

Gofynnais gwestiwn penodol, ac mae’n bosibl eich bod wedi’ch camhysbysu, ond mae gofal yn y cartref yn faes arbenigol sy’n gysylltiedig â’r rhai a gynorthwyir yn eu cartrefi. Nid yw’r ffigurau yr ydych newydd eu cyflwyno’n ymwneud â hynny. Yn 1999, cafodd 29,000 o bobl eu cynorthwyo; yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf y mae gennyf ffigurau ar ei chyfer—2001—yr oedd hynny wedi gostwng i 26,000 ac yr wyf yn meddwl tybed a yw wedi gostwng ymhellach yn 2002. A gytunwch fod hyn yn mynd yn groes i amcan sylfaenol gofal yn y gymuned?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I am not sure what that original nit-pick was about, because the answer that I gave clearly specified how many people received care from a community-based service, which, I think, is equivalent to domiciliary care. That 82,000 figure is relevant.

Nid wyf yn sicr â beth yr oedd a wnelo’r hollti blew gwreiddiol hwnnw, gan fod yr ateb a roddais yn nodi’n glir y nifer a dderbyniodd ofal gan wasanaeth yn y gymuned sy’n cyfateb, yr wyf yn credu, i ofal yn y cartref. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw o 82,000 yn berthnasol.

The trend relates to the time when the Conservatives were in office, and is a result of their 1993 policy. I think that it also received full support from the Labour side of the House of Commons. A smaller number of people receive care that is more intensive, because people can remain in settings that are not nursing homes, old people’s homes or hospitals. We welcomed that when the Conservatives started it, and I cannot understand why the Conservatives do not welcome our continuing it. It is a healthy trend, which means that home helps are no longer simply doing the shopping or some light dusting; they are now home carers providing specific services, helping people to stay out of residential care settings.

Mae’r tuedd yn ymwneud â’r adeg yr oedd y Ceidwadwyr mewn grym, ac mae’n ganlyniad i’w polisi yn 1993. Credaf ei fod wedi’i lwyr gefnogi gan ochr Llafur Tŷ’r Cyffredin hefyd. Mae nifer lai o bobl yn derbyn gofal sy’n ddwysach, am fod pobl yn gallu aros mewn lleoliadau heblaw cartrefi nyrsio, cartrefi hen bobl neu ysbytai. Gwnaethom groesawu hynny pan gyflwynwyd ef gan y Ceidwadwyr, ac ni allaf ddeall pam nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn croesawu’r ffaith ein bod yn parhau ag ef. Mae’n duedd iach, sy’n golygu bod cynorthwywyr yn y cartref yn gwneud mwy bellach na dim ond siopa neu ychydig o waith glanhau ysgafn; yn awr maent yn ofalwyr yn y cartref sy’n darparu gwasanaethau penodol, gan helpu pobl fel nad oes rhaid iddynt fynd i leoliadau gofal preswyl.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 4

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Does the First Minister not agree that it is vital that we continue to support domiciliary care, of whatever type, so that we can afford people the choice of living in their own homes as opposed to entering institutions, which many do not want to do?

Onid yw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno ei bod yn hollbwysig inni barhau i gynnal gofal yn y cartref, o ba fath bynnag, fel y gallwn roi’r dewis i bobl o gael aros yn eu cartrefi eu hunain yn hytrach na mynd i sefydliadau, sy’n rhywbeth nad yw llawer am ei wneud?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

It is vital that people who wish to stay at home can do so as long as it is physically, medically and socially possible, whether through a combination of district and community nursing, or sometimes voluntary, family care and home carers. If it is necessary for you to be in hospital, that is always available, but if not, you can return home as early as possible, provided you have suitable support. All Members should support that, no matter what their party and however close we are to an election.

Mae’n hollbwysig bod pobl sy’n dymuno aros gartref yn gallu gwneud hynny cyhyd ag y bo’n gorfforol, yn feddygol ac yn gymdeithasol bosibl, boed hynny drwy gyfuniad o nyrsio ardal a nyrsio cymunedol, neu nyrsio gwirfoddol weithiau, gofal gan y teulu a gofalwyr yn y cartref. Os oes angen ichi fod mewn ysbyty, mae’r opsiwn hwnnw ar gael bob amser, ond os nad oes, cewch fynd adref cyn gynhared ag y bo modd, ar yr amod bod cymorth addas gennych. Dylai pob Aelod gefnogi hynny, ni waeth beth yw ei blaid a pha mor agos bynnag yr ydym i etholiad.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 5

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

First Minister, will you accept that the situation of domiciliary care is symbolic of the shambles in social services as a whole, as illustrated in the inspector’s report published last week? Will you accept that your Government is dismally failing some of the most vulnerable people in our communities and when, if ever, do you propose to get a grip, because the Minister for Health and Social Services clearly cannot?

Brif Weinidog, a wnewch dderbyn bod y sefyllfa o ran gofal yn y cartref yn arwydd o’r llanastr cyffredinol yn y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, fel y dangoswyd yn adroddiad yr arolygydd a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf? A wnewch dderbyn bod eich Llywodraeth yn gwneud cam mawr â rhai o’r bobl fwyaf hyglwyf yn ein cymunedau a pha bryd, os o gwbl, yr ydych chi’n bwriadu mynd i’r afael â hyn, gan ei bod yn amlwg nad yw’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gallu gwneud hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I am sorry to inform you, Helen Mary, that it was our report and it made no criticism of the Government. It was a report from the Social Services Inspectorate for Wales, which is an independent body that forms part of our civil service. It did its job of examining how social services are coping, particularly on children’s services, and made the appropriate comments. Local authorities at the bottom of the league table—as Torfaen County Borough Council was three years ago—can change their fortunes by working with the SSIW, consultants working on the advice of the SSIW and, sometimes, the Audit Commission. Torfaen council and the Vale of Glamorgan Council have both achieved such a turn-around and are to be commended. I hope that other authorities currently suffering difficulties with their children’s services will also undertake similar improvements over the next year or so.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf eich hysbysu, Helen Mary, mai ein hadroddiad ni oedd hwnnw ac nad oedd beirniadaeth ynddo ar y Llywodraeth. Yr oedd yn adroddiad gan Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru, sef corff annibynnol sy’n rhan o’n gwasanaeth sifil. Cyflawnodd yr arolygiaeth ei gwaith o archwilio i ganfod sut y mae gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn ymdopi, yn enwedig o ran gwasanaethau plant, a gwnaeth y sylwadau priodol. Mae awdurdodau lleol sydd ar waelod y tabl cynghrair—fel yr oedd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Tor-faen dair blynedd yn ôl—yn gallu gwella’u darpariaeth yn sylweddol drwy weithio gydag Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru, ymgynghorwyr sy’n gweithio’n unol â chyngor yr arolygiaeth ac, weithiau, y Comisiwn Archwilio. Mae cyngor Tor-faen a Chyngor Bro Morgannwg ill dau wedi cyflawni trawsnewidiad o’r fath ac maent i’w canmol. Gobeithiaf y bydd awdurdodau eraill sy’n profi anawsterau ar hyn o bryd gyda’u gwasanaethau plant hefyd yn ymgymryd â gwelliannau tebyg dros y flwyddyn nesaf.

‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’

‘Plan for Wales 2001’

C2 Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Q2 Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar hynt y gwaith o gyflawni’r amcanion mewn perthynas â datblygu economaidd a amlinellir yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’? (OAQ21932)

Will the First Minister make a statement on progress towards delivering the objectives in relation to economic development as outlined in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’? (OAQ21932)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6

Mae’r ffigurau diweddaraf yn dangos ein bod yn camu ymlaen yn dda. Fe gofiwch i’r ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd tua 10 diwrnod yn ôl ddangos cynnydd o 36,000 yn nifer y swyddi yng Nghymru. Os edrychwch yn fanylach ar y ffigurau hynny, mae pethau yn well na’r disgwyl yn dilyn yr ystyriaeth gyntaf. Mae nifer y swyddi amser llawn ychwanegol lawer yn uwch, sef 54,000. Er mwyn cyrraedd y cyfanswm—cynnydd o 36,000—rhaid tynnu’r gostyngiad o 18,000 yn nifer y swyddi rhan amser oddi wrth y cynnydd yn nifer y swyddi amser llawn. O ystyried ffigurau’r Deyrnas Unedig, y mae’r holl gynnydd yn y swyddi amser llawn, yn ystod y flwyddyn o fis Tachwedd 2001 hyd at fis Tachwedd 2002, yng Nghymru.

The latest figures show that we are making good progress. You will remember that figures published some 10 days ago show an increase of 36,000 in the number of jobs in Wales. If you read between the lines, those figures are better than they first appear. The number of additional full-time jobs is far higher, namely 54,000. In order to reach the total—an increase of 36,000—you must subtract the reduction of 18,000 in the number of part-time jobs from the increase in the number of full-time jobs. If you consider the figures for the United Kingdom, during the year from November 2001 to November 2002, the increase in the number of full-time jobs is all in Wales.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 6

Galwaf Peter Black—Elin Jones, mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Yr oedd yr ateb mor hir, cymerais bod y cwestiwn atodol wedi’i ofyn. [Chwerthin.]

I call Peter Black—I am sorry, Elin Jones. The answer was so long, I assumed that the supplementary question had been asked. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

Ar y 36,000 o swyddi hynny, yr oedd un o’ch targedau yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ yn rhoi pwyslais arbennig ar greu swyddi yng ngorllewin Cymru a’r Cymoedd. Er hyn, dengys y ffigurau yr ydych wedi cyfeirio atynt bod y cynnydd mewn swyddi llynedd ddwywaith cymaint yn nwyrain Cymru nag yn ardal Amcan 1—yr oedd twf o 5.2 y cant yn nwyrain Cymru a thwf o 2 y cant yn unig yn ardal Amcan 1. A ydych yn cytuno bod hyn yn adlewyrchiad o’ch methiant i greu swyddi yn ardal Amcan 1, a’ch methiant i roi blaenoriaeth i’r cymunedau sydd wirioneddol angen y swyddi hynny?

On those 36,000 jobs, one of your targets in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ placed particular emphasis on creating jobs in west Wales and the Valleys. Despite this, the figures to which you have referred show that the increase in jobs in east Wales last year was double that of the increase in the Objective 1 area—there was a 5.2 per cent increase in east Wales and only a 2 per cent increase in the Objective 1 area. Do you agree that this is a reflection of your failure to create jobs in the Objective 1 area and your failure to give priority to the communities that desperately need those jobs?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 7

Y pwynt pwysig yw bod cynnydd mawr wedi’i wneud. O ystyried yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yng ngweddill y Deyrnas Unedig, byddwn wedi disgwyl mymryn o lawenhad gan Blaid Cymru bod cymaint o’r cynnydd, yn enwedig mewn swyddi amser llawn, wedi’i weld yng Nghymru—mae holl gynnydd y Deyrnas Unedig wedi digwydd yng Nghymru. Yr ydych yn gywir bod problemau ynglŷn a lleoliad y swyddi hyn, ond hoffwn i Blaid Cymru aeddfedu a chroesawu newyddion da a derbyn ein bod am weithredu mwy o fesurau er mwyn rhoi rhagor o flaenoriaeth i leoliad swyddi yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae gwaith da wedi’i gyflawni hyd yn hyn.

The important point is that there has been a substantial increase. Given what is happening in the rest of the United Kingdom, I would have expected Plaid Cymru to show a degree of joy that so much of the increase, particularly in full-time jobs, has been in Wales—the increase in Wales accounts for the entire United Kingdom increase. You are correct that there are problems regarding the location of these jobs, but I wish that Plaid Cymru would grow up and welcome good news and accept that we will implement more measures to give more priority to the location of jobs in future. However, good work has already been done.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 7

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

It is important that unemployment is falling, but how do we now increase economic activity rates and enterprise, particularly in deprived areas where there is a history of long-term unemployment?

Mae’n bwysig bod diweithdra’n gostwng, ond sut y gallwn yn awr godi’r cyfraddau gweithgaredd economaidd a chynyddu menter, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig lle y mae diweithdra tymor hir yn beth cyffredin?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

These figures are remarkable because they indicate that, of the traditional difference of five full percentage points between the activity rate in Wales and the rest of the UK—it is usually 74 per cent in the UK; 69 per cent in Wales—we made good two full percentage points between November 2001 and November 2002. That means that 40 per cent of that problem has disappeared in one year, which is a massive achievement for the Welsh economy when full-time employment is not rising in the UK economy, although employment in general is rising. If we could continue that rate of progress, which may be unrealistic, we would wipe out the whole problem in two and a half years.

Mae’r ffigurau hyn yn hynod am eu bod yn dangos, o’r gwahaniaeth arferol o bum pwynt canran llawn rhwng y gyfradd gweithgaredd yng Nghymru a gweddill y DU—mae fel arfer yn 74 y cant yn y DU ac yn 69 y cant yng Nghymru—inni wneud cynnydd o ddau bwynt canran llawn rhwng Tachwedd 2001 a Thachwedd 2002. Golyga hynny fod 40 y cant o’r broblem honno wedi diflannu mewn un flwyddyn, ac mae hynny’n orchest aruthrol o ran economi Cymru pan nad yw cyflogaeth amser llawn yn codi yn economi’r DU, er bod cyflogaeth yn gyffredinol yn codi. Os gallem barhau â’r gyfradd cynnydd honno, er y gallai hynny fod yn afrealistig, byddem yn dileu’r broblem gyfan mewn dwy flynedd a hanner.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 7

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

We have heard the usual litany of figures from you, given out like a speak-your-weight machine, but without the same conviction. Has this Government not succeeded in widening the wealth gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom, and has Objective 1 not been a dismal failure? Is it not time that we got the act together on this and will you apologise to the people of Wales for the failure of Objective 1?

Clywsom y litani arferol o ffigurau gennych, a draddodwyd yn null peiriant dweud pwysau, ond heb yr un argyhoeddiad. Onid yw’r Llywodraeth hon wedi llwyddo i ledu’r bwlch cyfoeth rhwng Cymru a gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig, ac oni fu Amcan 1 yn fethiant truenus? Onid yw’n bryd inni roi trefn ar hyn ac a wnewch ymddiheuro i bobl Cymru am fethiant Amcan 1?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Plaid Cymru and the Tories seem to be competing as to which of them can show the greatest aversion to good news. These are not my figures; they come from the Office for National Statistics, Nick, and I would have expected you to criticise me for over-enthusiasm rather than for reciting them like a robot. You may be confused because of the fact that you heard them through an interpreter—that is not to criticise the professionalism of the interpreter, but you cannot expect interpreters to communicate enthusiasm as I was doing in the original Welsh. Let us be fair, the figures are extremely good: an increase of 54,000 in the number of full-time jobs in the Welsh economy in one year, between November 2001 and November 2002, is excellent, considering that it accounts for the total rise of 50,000 and more in the UK economy during the same period. It is a remarkable achievement for employers throughout Wales, and I commend them. We would welcome a different distribution, but there is no such thing as perfect distribution—it is not possible. However, you can work towards it through Objective 1. Plaid Cymru and the Tories bat the accusation that Objective 1 is a shambles back and fore, believing that if both say it, somebody out there may believe it. You are wrong: the figures clearly show that 6,000 jobs have already been achieved and that the projected achievement indicates 36,000 additional jobs. You may not want 36,000 additional jobs arising from Objective 1, but the people of Wales do, Nick, and you will learn that on 1 May.

Ymddengys bod Plaid Cymru a’r Torïaid yn cystadlu â’i gilydd o ran pa un ohonynt a all ddangos yr anhoffter mwyaf o newyddion da. Nid fy ffigurau i yw’r rhain; maent yn dod o’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, Nick, a byddwn wedi disgwyl ichi fy meirniadu am fod yn orfrwdfrydig yn hytrach nag am eu hadrodd fel robot. Efallai’ch bod wedi drysu am eich bod wedi’u clywed drwy gyfieithydd—nid beirniadaeth ar broffesiynoldeb y cyfieithydd yw hynny, ond ni allwch ddisgwyl i gyfieithwyr gyfleu brwdfrydedd fel yr oeddwn i yn ei wneud yn y Cymraeg gwreiddiol. Gadewch inni fod yn deg, mae’r ffigurau’n dda dros ben: mae cynnydd o 54,000 yn y nifer o swyddi amser llawn yn economi Cymru mewn un flwyddyn, rhwng Tachwedd 2001 a Thachwedd 2002, yn rhagorol, o ystyried ei fod yn rhoi cyfrif am gyfanswm y cynnydd o 50,000 a rhagor yn economi’r DU yn ystod yr un cyfnod. Mae’n orchest hynod gan gyflogwyr ledled Cymru, ac yr wyf yn eu canmol. Byddem yn croesawu dosbarthiad gwahanol, ond nid oes y fath beth â dosbarthu perffaith—nid yw’n bosibl. Er hynny, gellir gweithio i’w gyflawni drwy gyfrwng Amcan 1. Mae Plaid Cymru a’r Torïaid yn taflu’r cyhuddiad bod Amcan 1 yn llanastr yn ôl a blaen gan gredu, os yw’r ddau ohonynt yn honni hynny, y bydd rhywun oddi allan yn eu credu. Yr ydych yn anghywir: mae’r ffigurau’n dangos yn eglur bod 6,000 o swyddi wedi’u sicrhau eisoes a bod rhagamcaniad o 36,000 o swyddi ychwanegol. Efallai nad ydych chi am gael 36,000 o swyddi ychwanegol drwy Amcan 1, ond mae pobl Cymru eisiau hynny, Nick, a chewch wybod hynny ar 1 Mai.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 8

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 8

Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch am ailystyried eich geiriau ynglŷn â’r cyfieithu yn y Siambr. Yr oedd eich ymateb yn anffodus, ond yr wyf yn deall eich bod yn siarad ym merw’r eiliad. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch am gywiro eich sylwadau. Yr ydym oll yn gwybod bod y cyfieithu yma o’r safon uchaf posibl.

I am sure that you would wish to reconsider your words about the Chamber’s translation service. Your reply was unfortunate, but I understand that you were speaking in the heat of the moment. However, I am sure that you would wish to amend your comments. We all know that the translation here is of the highest possible standard.

Yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ gwnaethoch nifer o ymrwymiadau; erbyn 2003-04, sef y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, yr oeddech am weld nifer y cwmnïau sy’n allforio o Gymru yn codi o 15 y cant. Ers i’r ddogfen gael ei chyhoeddi mae nifer y cwmnïau yng Nghymru sy’n allforio wedi gostwng o 1 y cant. Yr ydych wedi methu’n ddifrifol â chyrraedd eich targed. Er i Andrew Davies ddweud bod hyn oherwydd effaith yr economi fyd-eang, mae’n rhyfedd, onid ydyw, i gwmnïau yng ngweddill Prydain weld cynnydd sylweddol mewn allforion. Pam nad yw hynny wedi digwydd yng Nghymru?

In ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ you made a number of commitments; by 2003-04, the next financial year, you wanted to see a 15 per cent increase in the number of companies exporting from Wales. Since the document was published the number of Welsh exporters has dropped by 1 per cent. You have missed your target by a considerable margin. Although Andrew Davies said that this was because of the effect of the global economy, it is strange, is it not, that companies in the rest of Britain have seen a substantial increase in exports. Why has that not happened in Wales?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9

Ni allaf ateb yn fanwl. Y ffactor pwysig yw na allwch fod yn sicr o’r cyfuniad o gwmnïau sydd yn yr economi Gymreig o gymharu â rhanbarthau eraill yn economi’r Deyrnas Unedig. Ni olyga methu un targed yn y tymor byr mewn un flwyddyn na fydd y cynllun yn llwyddo. O ran rhagolygon y flwyddyn hon, mae’n bwysig cofio bod pedwar arolwg sydd wedi eu cyhoeddi yn datgan y bydd Cymru yn un o’r rhanbarthau neu wledydd blaenllaw yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Ni fyddwn yn cymryd sylw o un arolwg, ond os oes pedwar yn cael eu cyhoeddi sy’n datgan yr un peth, yr wyf yn dechrau cymryd sylw. Hefyd, mae’r bunt yn gwanhau i lefel lawer mwy naturiol; nid yw wedi cyrraedd ei lefel adeg lansio’r ewro bedair blynedd yn ôl, ond mae bron â chyrraedd. Mae angen i’r ewro godi tua 6 y cant eto i ddod â hi yn ôl i’w gwerth gwreiddiol o 70c adeg y lansio; mae’n 66c ar hyn o bryd. Mae hynny’n cael effaith aruthrol ar y mathau o nwyddau yr ydym yn eu hallforio yn draddodiadol o Gymru.

I cannot give a detailed answer. The important factor is that you cannot be sure of the combination of companies in the Welsh economy as compared with other regions in the UK economy. Missing one target in the short term in one year does not mean that the plan will not succeed. As regards the prospects for this year, it is important to remember that four published surveys state that Wales will be one of the foremost regions or countries within the UK. I would not take notice of a single survey, but if four published surveys say the same, I begin to take notice. Also, the pound is weakening to a much more natural level; it has not reached its level at the time of the euro’s launch four years ago, but it has almost got there. The euro needs to rise by about another 6 per cent to bring it back to its original value of 70p at its launch; it is 66p at the moment. That is having a huge effect on the kind of goods that we traditionally export from Wales.

O ran y dehongliad o’r cyfieithiad a’r gwasanaeth cyfieithu a gawn yma, dywedais wrth ateb—ac yr wyf yn flin na chlywsoch yr hyn a ddywedais—nad swyddogaeth y cyfieithwyr yw cyfleu ysbryd ein geiriau gwreiddiol. Dyna pam y gwnaeth Nick Bourne gymaint o gamsyniad—oni bai ei fod ond yn darllen yr hyn a ddarparwyd ar ei gyfer gan ei ymchwilwyr.

As regards the interpretation of the translation and the translation service that we receive here, I said in answering—and I am sorry that you did not hear what I said—that it is not the translators’ function to convey the spirit of our original words. That is why Nick Bourne made such a mistake—unless he was merely reading what his researchers had prepared for him.

Lefelau Cyflogaeth yng Nghymoedd y De

Level of Employment in the South Wales Valleys

Q3 Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 9

C3 Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Will the First Minister make a statement about the level of employment in the south Wales Valleys? (OAQ21929)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar lefelau cyflogaeth yng Nghymoedd y De? (OAQ21929)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Employment levels in the south Wales Valleys for the year to November 2002 are 305,000, an increase of 4,000 over the year to November 1999. Unemployment on the claimant count basis in December 2002 is 12,300 and that is 20 per cent lower than the figure for December 1999. In the Cynon Valley the claimant count has fallen by over a third over the same period.

Y lefelau cyflogaeth yng Nghymoedd y De am y flwyddyn hyd at fis Tachwedd 2002 yw 305,000, cynnydd o 4,000 o’i gymharu â’r flwyddyn hyd at fis Tachwedd 1999. Mae diweithdra ar sail nifer yr hawlwyr budd-dal yn Rhagfyr 2002 yn 12,300 ac mae hynny’n 20 y cant yn is na’r ffigur am fis Rhagfyr 1999. Yng Nghwm Cynon, mae nifer yr hawlwyr budd-dal wedi gostwng o fwy nag un rhan o dair dros yr un cyfnod.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 10

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you agree that the Objective 1 programme is contributing to rising employment levels and is progressing well? The latest figures show that more than 6,000 jobs have been created. Will you join me in condemning those who persist with scaremongering despite our excellent progress, meeting our targets and creating jobs in our less prosperous areas?

A ydych yn cytuno bod rhaglen Amcan 1 yn cyfrannu at gynnydd mewn lefelau cyflogaeth a’i bod yn mynd rhagddi’n dda? Dengys y ffigurau diweddaraf fod mwy na 6,000 o swyddi wedi’u creu. A wnewch ymuno â mi i gollfarnu’r rhai sy’n dal i godi bwganod er gwaethaf ein cynnydd rhagorol, a’r ffaith ein bod yn cyrraedd ein targedau ac yn creu swyddi yn ein hardaloedd llai ffyniannus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

The problem is that some people do not want to hear good news. We have created 6,000 additional jobs and there are another 36,000 jobs in prospect from the projects already approved. There is a problem in that Plaid Cymru and the Tories will not welcome that news and claim that they could do better or say that the figures must be wrong and that it cannot be happening. Living in fairyland, as they do, and knowing that they will never have to administer anything in government anywhere so do not need to be responsible, then I am afraid that they tend to opt for the negative politics of permanent opposition.

Y broblem yw nad yw rhai pobl am glywed newyddion da. Yr ydym wedi creu 6,000 o swyddi ychwanegol ac mae 36,000 o swyddi eraill yn yr arfaeth yn y prosiectau a gymeradwywyd eisoes. Mae problem i’r graddau na wnaiff Plaid Cymru a’r Torïaid groesawu’r newyddion hynny a’u bod yn honni y gallent wneud yn well neu’n dweud bod y ffigurau’n siŵr o fod yn anghywir ac na allai hyn ddigwydd. Gan eu bod yn byw yng ngwlad y tylwyth teg ac yn gwybod na fyddant byth yn gorfod gweinyddu dim byd mewn llywodraeth yn unman ac felly nad oes angen iddynt fod yn gyfrifol, mae arnaf ofn eu bod yn tueddu i ddewis gwleidyddiaeth negyddol yr wrthblaid barhaol.

William Graham spoken in English p. 10

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

It has been said that Objective 1 has secured additional jobs in Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. If that is the case, First Minister, why has that not been a catalyst for further job improvements?

Dywedwyd bod Amcan 1 wedi sicrhau swyddi ychwanegol yn Nhor-faen a Blaenau Gwent. Os felly, Brif Weinidog, pam na fu hynny’n gatalydd i welliannau pellach o ran swyddi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I mentioned earlier that in the UK economy there was an increase of 50,000 in full-time jobs during the year to November 2002, which if you take the Welsh figures out would actually be a minus figure of 4,000 for full-time jobs in the UK economy. All and more of the 50,000 increase is accounted for by Wales. There has been an increase of 54,000 full time jobs in Wales. Once the 18,000 part time jobs have been subtracted, the net increase of jobs is 36,000. In terms of the UK figures, the increase is in part-time jobs, with a decrease of 4,000 in full-time jobs. The basis of your question, therefore, needs to be re-examined. What you should have asked is how did the Welsh economy do so well, given the figures that were published in mid-January by the Office for National Statistics.

Dywedais yn gynharach fod cynnydd o 50,000 o swyddi amser llawn wedi bod yn economi’r DU yn ystod y flwyddyn hyd at fis Tachwedd 2002, a fyddai, pe tynnech y ffigurau ar gyfer Cymru, yn ffigur negyddol o 4,000 am swyddi amser llawn yn economi’r DU. Cymru sy’n rhoi cyfrif am y cwbl a rhagor o’r 50,000 o gynnydd. Bu cynnydd o 54,000 o swyddi amser llawn yng Nghymru. Ar ôl tynnu’r 18,000 o swyddi rhan amser, y gwir gynnydd yn nifer y swyddi yw 36,000. Yng nghyd-destun ffigurau’r DU, cynnydd yn y nifer o swyddi rhan amser sydd, gyda gostyngiad o 4,000 yn nifer y swyddi amser llawn. Gan hynny, mae angen ailystyried sail eich cwestiwn. Yr hyn y dylech fod wedi’i ofyn yw sut y gwnaeth economi Cymru gystal, o ystyried y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd ganol Ionawr gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 11

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Will the First Minister join me in expressing deep regret at the fate of the 190 workers at Alexon Pontypridd, who have just learned that they will be made redundant? Do you agree that Welsh-based manufacturing companies are placed at a disadvantage by the high pound and the cheap labour that is available abroad? When did you last discuss with Gordon Brown the devastating effect that that has had on the manufacturing industry in Wales, in which 19,000 jobs have been lost since Labour came to power? What was the outcome of those discussions?

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ymuno â mi i fynegi gofid mawr ynghylch tynged y 190 o weithwyr yn Alexon Pontypridd, sydd newydd gael gwybod y byddant yn cael eu diswyddo? A ydych yn cytuno bod cwmnïau gweithgynhyrchu a leolir yng Nghymru o dan anfantais oherwydd y bunt uchel a’r llafur rhad sydd ar gael dramor? Pa bryd y gwnaethoch drafod ddiwethaf â Gordon Brown yr effaith ddinistriol a gaiff hynny ar y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru, y collwyd 19,000 o swyddi ynddo ers i Lafur ddod i rym? Beth oedd canlyniadau’r trafodaethau hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I made that point to Gordon Brown, though some time ago. The problem relating to the value of the euro relative to the pound has lessened since then. If I remember correctly, the euro was worth an average of 58p in 2001; in 2002, the value rose to 62p on average. Fortunately, it now has reached 66p, though that is still short of its launch rate of 70p. As well as being an improvement in the euro’s strength, that has enabled manufacturers of basic goods to export across the eurozone barrier without incurring the losses that they probably incurred in 2001 and 2002. That change has not helped Alexon or Dewhirst because it is in a sector where jobs are being transferred to areas outside the eurozone, such as eastern Europe or north Africa, where dollar-linked currencies are used. The dollar’s collapse has been faster than that of the pound, which has not helped. I sympathise with the employees at Alexon and their families. The announcement is another nail in the coffin of the clothing industry in Wales. There are niche markets for the clothing industry in Wales that are showing vigour, but manufacturing for chain stores and so on is being transferred abroad, with the result that few clothing companies like Alexon are left in Wales today.

Cyflwynais y pwynt hwnnw i Gordon Brown, er bod hynny gryn amser yn ôl. Mae’r broblem sy’n gysylltiedig â gwerth yr ewro o’i gymharu â’r bunt wedi lleihau ers hynny. Os cofiaf yn iawn, yr oedd yr ewro yn werth 58c ar gyfartaledd yn 2001; yn 2002, cododd ei werth i 62 ceiniog ar gyfartaledd. Yn ffodus, mae bellach wedi cyrraedd 66c, er bod hynny’n dal i fod yn is na’i gyfradd wrth ei lansio o 70c. Yn ogystal â chryfhau’r ewro, mae hynny wedi galluogi gweithgynhyrchwyr nwyddau sylfaenol i allforio ar draws rhwystr ardal yr ewro heb gael y colledion a gawsant yn ôl pob tebyg yn 2001 a 2002. Nid yw’r newid hwnnw wedi helpu Alexon neu Dewhirst gan eu bod mewn sector lle y trosglwyddir swyddi i ardaloedd y tu allan i ardal yr ewro, fel dwyrain Ewrop a gogledd Affrica, lle y defnyddir arian sy’n gysylltiedig â’r ddoler. Mae’r ddoler wedi cwympo’n gynt na’r bunt, ac ni fu hynny o gymorth. Cydymdeimlaf â’r gweithwyr yn Alexon a’u teuluoedd. Mae’r cyhoeddiad hwn yn hoelen arall yn arch y diwydiant dillad yng Nghymru. Mae marchnadoedd arbenigol i’r diwydiant dillad yng Nghymru sy’n ymddangos yn llawn egni, ond mae gweithgynhyrchu ar gyfer siopau cadwyn ac yn y blaen yn cael ei drosglwyddo dramor ac, o ganlyniad i hynny, ychydig o gwmnïau dillad fel Alexon sydd ar ôl yng Nghymru heddiw.

Etholaeth Ogwr

Ogmore Constituency

Q4 Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 12

C4 Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

How have the Assembly’s Government economic development policies affected the Ogmore constituency? (OAQ21936)

Sut y mae polisïau datblygu economaidd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi effeithio ar etholaeth Ogwr? (OAQ21936)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Over the three years to last December, the claimant count in the Ogmore constituency fell by 27 per cent. In the same period, the Assembly supported 22 companies in the Bridgend local authority area with grant assistance of over £14 million. Associated investment by these companies approaches nearly £50 million. These projects should create almost 750 jobs and safeguard a further 118.

Dros y tair blynedd diwethaf hyd fis Rhagfyr diwethaf, bu gostyngiad o 27 y cant yn nifer yr hawlwyr budd-dal yn etholaeth Ogwr. Yn yr un cyfnod, gwnaeth y Cynulliad gynorthwyo 22 o gwmnïau yn ardal awdurdod lleol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr gan roi cymorth grant o fwy na £14 miliwn. Mae’r buddsoddiad cysylltiedig gan y cwmnïau hyn yn agos i £50 miliwn. Dylai’r prosiectau hyn greu ymron i 750 o swyddi a diogelu 118 yn rhagor o swyddi.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 12

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Regional selective assistance continues to benefit businesses in my constituency and many others throughout Wales. It creates and safeguards jobs, as I am sure that you observed when you visisted the Georgia-Pacific Paper Mills in Llangynwyd last week. Will you ensure that continued assistance and guidance is given to firms to access that initiative?

Mae cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn dal i ddod â budd i fusnesau yn fy etholaeth i ac i lawer o rai eraill ledled Cymru. Mae’n creu ac yn diogelu swyddi, fel y gwnaethoch sylwi, yr wyf yn siŵr, ar eich ymweliad â melinau papur Georgia-Pacific yn Llangynwyd yr wythnos diwethaf. A wnewch sicrhau y rhoddir cymorth ac arweiniad o hyd i fusnesau gael cyrraedd y fenter honno?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Yes. I enjoyed my visit with you last week to see the new line 15 at the plant in Llangynwyd, which was partially paid for by the regional selective assistance grant. There have been two other major investments of regional selective assistance in the Ogmore constituency. One is in the GQ Parachutes Ltd factory at Llangeinor, at the old Ofrex factory site. That is expected to create an additional 141 permanent full-time jobs. The other investment is in the COSi factory in Maesteg, at the former Revlon factory site. There, the regional selective assistance grant is expected to safeguard 425 permanent full-time jobs and create an additional 150 full-time jobs.

Gwnaf. Gwneuthum fwynhau fy ymweliad gyda chi yr wythnos diwethaf i weld y llinell 15 newydd yn y gwaith yn Llangynwyd, y talwyd amdani’n rhannol gan y grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Bu dau fuddsoddiad pwysig arall o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn etholaeth Ogwr. Mae un ohonynt yn ffatri GQ Parachutes Cyf. yn Llangeinwyr, ar safle hen ffatri Ofrex. Disgwylir i hynny greu 141 o swyddi amser llawn parhaol ychwanegol. Mae’r buddsoddiad arall yn ffatri COSi ym Maesteg, ar safle hen ffatri Revlon. Yn y fan honno, disgwylir y bydd y grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn diogelu 425 o swyddi amser llawn parhaol ac yn creu 150 o swyddi amser llawn ychwanegol.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 13

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

The areas that you referred to have good access to the motorway. What are you doing to create jobs at the top of the valleys in the Ogmore constituency, in communities such as Caerau, Nantyffyllon, Blaengarw and Nantymoel?

Mae’r ardaloedd y cyfeiriasoch atynt yn rhai sydd â mynediad da i’r draffordd. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i greu swyddi ym mlaenau’r cymoedd yn etholaeth Ogwr, mewn cymunedau fel Caerau, Nantyffyllon, Blaengarw a Nant-y-moel?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

That question reveals the difficulty of being asked to have, if you like, a magic pepper pot that would allow you to provide 100 jobs exactly in the area that wants them. That cannot be done. However, I contest your assertion that the Llangynwyd premises of Georgia-Pacific, the Maesteg premises of COSi, and the Llangeinor premises of GQ Parachutes are on the M4. They are not; they are in what I would call the upper valleys. Those jobs are as easily available to those who live near the M4 as they are to those in communities such as Nantyffyllon, Caerau and Croeserw.

Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw yn dangos y drafferth o gael rhywun yn gofyn ichi fod â phot pupur hud, os caf ei roi felly, a fyddai’n gadael ichi ddarparu 100 o swyddi yn yr union ardal lle y mae eu hangen. Ni ellir gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, heriaf eich honiad bod adeiladau Georgia-Pacific yn Llangynwyd, ac adeiladau COSi ym Maesteg, ac adeiladau GQ Parachutes yn Llangeinwyr ar yr M4. Nid ydynt; maent yn yr hyn a alwn yn rhan uchaf y cymoedd. Mae’r swyddi hynny ar gael yr un mor rhwydd i’r rhai sy’n byw ger yr M4 ag y maent i’r rhai mewn cymunedau fel Nantyffyllon, Caerau a Chroeserw.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 13

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I agree with that, Rhodri. What Janet Davies just said is extraordinary. The COSi factory is within two or three miles of Nantyffyllon and Caerau, and is a big employer of people from those areas. The fact that the COSi factory is still operating is greatly appreciated by the people of Nantyffyllon and Caerau, I am sure.

Cytunaf â hynny, Rhodri. Mae’r hyn a ddywedodd Janet Davies yn awr yn rhyfeddol. Mae ffatri COSi o fewn dwy neu dair milltir i Nantyffyllon a Chaerau, ac mae’n gyflogwr o bwys i bobl yr ardaloedd hynny. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pobl Nantyffyllon a Chaerau yn gwerthfawrogi’n fawr y ffaith bod ffatri COSi yn dal i weithredu.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

You are right that when Revlon decided to get out of the basic manufacture of cosmetics, there was a lot of concern in Maesteg and adjoining communities, including in your constituency at the top of the Afan valley, Brian. However, fortunately, we found an outsourcing manufacturer from South Africa, namely COSi, to take over the plant. That was achieved with the benefit of regional selective assistance, and much negotiation—I visited COSi’s headquarters on the outskirts of Johannesburg myself. It is delighted with its acquisition, and I am glad that expansion is proceeding in addition to the original 400 jobs being safeguarded.

Yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud y bu pryder mawr ym Maesteg a’r cymunedau cyfagos, gan gynnwys eich etholaeth chi ym mhen uchaf cwm Afan, Brian, pan benderfynodd Revlon roi’r gorau i weithgynhyrchu cosmetigion sylfaenol. Fodd bynnag, yn ffodus, daethom o hyd i weithgynhyrchydd o Dde Affrica a ddefnyddiai ffynonellau allanol, sef COSi, i gymryd drosodd y gwaith. Cyflawnwyd hynny drwy fantais cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, a llawer o negodi—ymwelais â phencadlys COSi ar gyrion Johannesburg fy hun. Mae wrth ei fodd â’r hyn a gafodd, ac yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod ehangu’n mynd ymlaen yn ogystal â diogelu’r 400 o swyddi gwreiddiol.

Rhyfel Posibl yn erbyn Irac

Possible War with Iraq

Q5 Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 14

C5 Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Will the First Minister make a statement on any preparations his Government is making to deal with a possible war with Iraq and any effects it will have on the people of Wales? (OAQ21953)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar unrhyw gamau y mae ei Lywodraeth yn eu cymryd i ddelio â rhyfel posibl yn erbyn Irac ac ag unrhyw effaith y bydd yn ei gael ar bobl Cymru? (OAQ21953)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

The second part of your question, rather than the first, is relevant to us, given that the question of a war with Iraq is not a devolved issue. However, we will be involved in dealing with the effects that a war could have on the people of Wales. Work by the UK Government to enhance the UK’s ability to prepare for, deal with, and recover from any disruption at national, regional or local levels, is ongoing. The Assembly Government continues to work closely with the UK Government in this regard, because, although emergency planning in general is not a devolved matter, the Welsh Assembly Government works closely with the four emergency services.

Ail ran eich cwestiwn, yn hytrach na’r gyntaf, sy’n berthnasol i ni, o ystyried nad yw’r cwestiwn o ryfel yn erbyn Irac yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ymwneud â delio ag effeithiau posibl rhyfel ar bobl Cymru. Mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo gan Lywodraeth y DU i hyrwyddo gallu’r DU i ymbaratoi ar gyfer unrhyw ymyrraeth, ymdrin ag ef ac ymadfer ar ei ôl ar lefelau cenedlaethol, rhanbarthol a lleol. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn parhau i gydweithio’n agos â Llywodraeth y DU yn hynny o beth, oherwydd, er nad yw cynllunio argyfwng yn gyffredinol yn fater a ddatganolwyd, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gweithio gyda’r pedwar gwasanaeth brys.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 14

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Do you, like me, share the dismay of a Conservative Member of Parliament, Kenneth Clarke, at the spectacle of the state of which we are part behaving as though it were the fifty-first state of the American union? Do you agree that it is a matter of concern to our constituents that the agenda of corporate America—not that of the American people; they do not have a say in these matters—is being advanced in the name of the people of our country, dressed up as a moral crusade of the most stupendous, stomach-churning hypocrisy? It is an agenda of backing terrorists—including Saddam, when it suits—and spreading conflict to keep the world’s resources in the hands of an elite. Will you also reflect on the fact that, whatever mitigating influence the Prime Minister may have on the incumbent in the White House, it is unconscionable for him to publicly state his readiness, if he so chooses, to invade Iraq regardless of international law and the will of the United Nations, thereby, in effect, undermining every civilised value decent politicians across the globe have fought so hard to uphold? [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Hear, hear.’]

A ydych chi, fel minnau, yn rhannu gofid Aelod Seneddol Ceidwadol, Kenneth Clarke, ynghylch gweld y wladwriaeth yr ydym yn rhan ohoni’n ymddwyn fel pe bai’n unfed dalaith wedi’r hanner cant yn yr Unol Daleithiau? A ydych yn cytuno mai mater sy’n peri pryder i’n hetholwyr yw bod agenda’r America gorfforaethol—nid agenda pobl America; nid oes ganddynt lais yn y materion hyn—yn cael ei hyrwyddo yn enw pobl ein gwlad, yn rhith croesgad foesol o’r rhagrith mwyaf cyfoglyd? Mae’n agenda sy’n cefnogi terfysgwyr—gan gynnwys Saddam, pan fo hynny’n gyfleus—ac yn lledaenu gwrthdaro er mwyn cadw adnoddau’r byd yn nwylo elît. A wnewch hefyd fyfyrio ynghylch y ffaith ei bod yn afresymol i’r Prif Weinidog ddatgan yn gyhoeddus, beth bynnag fo’i ddylanwad lliniarol ar ddeiliad y Tŷ Gwyn, ei fod yn barod i ymosod ar Irac, os yw’n dewis gwneud hynny, heb ystyried cyfraith ryngwladol ac ewyllys y Cenhedloedd Unedig, gan danseilio, i bob pwrpas, yr holl werthoedd gwâr y mae gwleidyddion parchus ledled y byd wedi ymladd mor galed i’w cynnal? [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Clywch, clywch.’]

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

That moves into territory that is well beyond the competence of the Assembly and devolved government. Our direct involvement is in terms of preparing, on behalf of the people of Wales, for any side effects. However, the United Nations only received the Blix report yesterday. It is now appropriate for everyone to digest the contents of that report before taking any steps that might be irreversible.

Mae hynny’n mynd i dir sydd ymhell y tu hwnt i allu’r Cynulliad a llywodraeth ddatganoledig. Yr ydym yn ymwneud â hyn yn uniongyrchol o ran paratoi, ar ran pobl Cymru, ar gyfer unrhyw sgîl-effeithiau. Fodd bynnag, ddoe ddiwethaf y daeth adroddiad Blix i law’r Cenhedloedd Unedig. Mae’n briodol yn awr i bawb ystyried cynnwys yr adroddiad hwnnw cyn cymryd unrhyw gamau a allai fod yn ddi-droi’n-ôl.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 15

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn sylweddoli bod mwyafrif pobl Cymru yn deall yn iawn beth yw’r cymhellion dros fynd i ryfel ac nad yw’r cymhellion hynny’n ymwneud â gwrthweithio terfysgaeth, ond, yn hytrach, â datgan grym a gorfodi buddiannau’r gorllewin ar bobl y dwyrain canol a gweddill y byd annatblygiedig? A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn fodlon fod yn llais i bobl Cymru ar y mater hwn?

Does the First Minister realise that the majority of Welsh people know full well what the motives are for going to war, and that those motives have little to do with opposing terrorism, but a great deal to do with putting on a show of force and imposing western interests on the people of the middle east and the rest of the developing world? Is the First Minister willing to be a voice for the people of Wales on this matter?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 15

Mae’r grŵp Llafur wedi gwneud datganiad; nid mater i’r Cynulliad yw hynny. Gwnaethpwyd penderfyniad annibynnol ac fe’i cyhoeddwyd am 2 p.m. heddiw. Bydd Cynog yn gallu ei ddarllen ar y rhyngrwyd yn fuan. Mae’r grŵp Llafur wedi gwneud ei ddatganiad, ac yr wyf yn siŵr bod y grwpiau eraill yn awyddus i wneud yr un peth.

The Labour group has already made a statement; that is not a matter for the Assembly. An independent decision was made, which was announced at 2 p.m. today. Cynog will be able to read it on the internet soon. The Labour group has made its statement, and I am sure that other groups are keen to do the same.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 15

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

The situation in Iraq and the situation of asylum seekers and alleged terrorism are causing concern in Muslim communities in Wales, including in my constituency, Newport East. Do you agree that there is a danger that groups that feed on racism might make capital out of this situation, and that politicians must be on their guard, as must Government agencies, to ensure that all possible support is given to those communities?

Mae’r sefyllfa yn Irac a sefyllfa ceiswyr lloches a therfysgaeth honedig yn peri pryder mewn cymunedau Moslemaidd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys rhai yn fy etholaeth i, Dwyrain Casnewydd. A ydych yn cytuno bod perygl y gallai grwpiau sy’n ymborthi ar hiliaeth elwa ar y sefyllfa hon, a bod rhaid i wleidyddion fod yn wyliadwrus, ac asiantaethau Llywodraeth hefyd, er mwyn sicrhau y rhoddir pob cymorth posibl i’r cymunedau hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

The inter-faith forum, of which all four party leaders in the Assembly are members, drew the same conclusions in the aftermath of 11 September. It was drawn to our attention that some people assumed that Muslims, and others whom brain-dead people assume to be Muslims because ‘they do not look like us’, must be on the verge of committing some terrorist act akin to the events of 11 September. Nothing could be more absurd, but that does not mean that some people, and particularly some evil people on the far right of politics such as those in the British National Party, do not seek to exploit that situation.

Daeth y fforwm rhyng-grefyddol, y mae pob un o’r pedwar arweinydd plaid yn y Cynulliad yn aelodau ohono, i’r un casgliadau yn sgîl 11 Medi. Tynnwyd ein sylw at y ffaith bod rhai pobl yn cymryd bod Moslemiaid, ac eraill y mae pobl penwag yn cymryd eu bod yn Foslemiaid am fod ‘eu golwg yn wahanol i ni’, yn sicr o fod ar fin cyflawni rhyw weithred derfysgol debyg i ddigwyddiadau 11 Medi. Ni ellid cael dim sy’n fwy hurt na hynny, ond nid yw hynny’n golygu nad yw rhai, yn enwedig rhai pobl ddrwg ar dde eithaf gwleidyddiaeth fel y rhai yn y Blaid Genedlaethol Brydeinig, yn ceisio elwa ar y sefyllfa honno.

That is why, after 11 September, we set up the inter-faith forum on a cross-party basis, with the leaders of the different faiths. We need to consider how we can head off any such recurrence of anti-Muslim feeling or opposition to people of middle-eastern or Indian sub-continental appearance, if anything happens to cause a high degree of social tension in the middle east in forthcoming weeks or months. It is timely to repeat the call that we have already made to the press and to politicians not to exploit this issue. People should not make the easy assumption that people with a particular colour of skin, or with non-western clothing, are potential terrorists, because it is simply not the case.

Dyna pam, ar ôl 11 Medi, y gwnaethom sefydlu’r fforwm rhyng-grefyddol ar sail drawsbleidiol, gydag arweinwyr y gwahanol grefyddau. Rhaid inni ystyried sut y gallwn atal unrhyw deimladau gwrth-Foslemaidd neu wrthwynebiad i bobl sy’n ymddangos yn debyg i bobl o’r dwyrain canol neu isgyfandir India rhag ailgodi, os digwydd rhywbeth i beri llawer o dyndra cymdeithasol yn y dwyrain canol yn yr wythnosau neu fisoedd nesaf. Amserol yw ailadrodd yr alwad a wnaethom eisoes i’r wasg a gwleidyddion beidio â chamddefnyddio’r mater hwn. Ni ddylai pobl ragdybio’n ddifeddwl bod pobl sydd â chroen o liw penodol, neu â dillad anorllewinol, yn derfysgwyr posibl, oherwydd nid felly y mae o gwbl.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 16

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Are there plans to take into account the further reduction of British troops through war and firefighting duties in any response to a terrorist attack in Wales? With soldiers already stretched, and no end to the firefighters’ strike in sight, how can the security of Wylfa nuclear power station in Anglesey and the population of Anglesey be assured when the weak draft council plans rely heavily on the fire service?

A oes bwriad i ystyried effaith y gostyngiad pellach yn nifer y milwyr Prydeinig oherwydd dyletswyddau rhyfel a diffodd tân ar unrhyw ymateb i ymosodiad terfysgol yng Nghymru? Gan fod milwyr wedi eu gorymestyn eisoes, ac am nad oes diwedd i streic y diffoddwyr tân mewn golwg, sut y gellir sicrhau diogelwch gorsaf ynni niwclear Wylfa yn Ynys Môn a phobl Ynys Môn pan fo cynlluniau drafft gwan y cyngor yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar y gwasanaeth tân?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Everybody is aware of this situation, and several appeals have been made to the Fire Brigades Union to take it into account when it contemplates how to proceed with its industrial dispute. The Deputy Prime Minister made a brief reference to this in a statement to the House of Commons some two and a half hours ago. He said that the Government would continue to do all that it can to protect public safety, especially at a time when there is a heightened level of terrorist threat and the armed forces are under increasing pressure from competing demands. The Deputy Prime Minister and the UK Cabinet are conscious of the issues that you have raised and have taken them into account to some degree in announcing the proposal to create new legislation in line with the provisions of the Fire Services Act 1947.

Mae pawb yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa hon, a gwnaed sawl apêl i Undeb y Brigadau Tân i’w hystyried pan fo’n ystyried sut i fynd ymlaen â’i anghydfod diwydiannol. Cyfeiriodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog at hyn yn fyr mewn datganiad yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin tua dwy awr a hanner yn ôl. Dywedodd y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn parhau i wneud popeth yn ei gallu i warchod diogelwch y cyhoedd, yn enwedig ar adeg pan fo mwy o fygythiad oddi wrth derfysgwyr a’r lluoedd arfog o dan bwysau cynyddol gan wahanol alwadau. Mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a Chabinet y DU yn ymwybodol o’r materion yr ydych wedi’u codi ac wedi’u hystyried i ryw raddau wrth gyhoeddi’r bwriad i wneud deddfwriaeth newydd yn unol â’r darpariaethau yn y Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Tân 1947.

Cynhyrchu Dur ar Safle Allied Steel and Wire Gynt

Steel Production at the former Allied Steel and Wire Site

Q6 Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 17

C6 Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Is the First Minister planning to meet with Celsa and the trade unions to discuss the recommencement of steel production at the former Allied Steel and Wire site? (OAQ21927)

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn bwriadu cyfarfod â Celsa a’r undebau llafur i drafod ailddechrau cynhyrchu dur ar safle Allied Steel and Wire gynt? (OAQ21927)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Andrew Davies and I intend to have further conversations with Celsa and with the trade unions, because clearly a decision is pending now that Celsa has bought the assets of Allied Steel and Wire in Cardiff and some of the assets of Allied Steel and Wire in Sheerness, which are being transferred to Cardiff. The receivers KPMG are out of the picture now because the remaining assets of Sheerness have been disposed of to a Saudi Arabian company. We hope that we will soon have the opportunity to not merely have telephone conversations with Celsa directors, but to meet them in situ in Cardiff, pending a final decision on reactivating the plant.

Mae Andrew Davies a minnau’n bwriadu cynnal sgyrsiau pellach gyda Celsa a chyda’r undebau llafur, gan ei bod yn amlwg bod penderfyniad yn agos gan fod Celsa wedi prynu asedau Allied Steel and Wire yng Nghaerdydd a rhai o asedau Allied Steel and Wire yn Sheerness, sy’n cael eu trosglwyddo i Gaerdydd. Nid yw’r derbynwyr KPMG ynddi bellach gan fod yr asedau a oedd yn weddill yn Sheerness wedi’u gwerthu i gwmni yn Saudi Arabia. Gobeithiwn gael cyfle cyn hir nid yn unig i gael sgyrsiau dros y teleffon â chyfarwyddwyr Celsa, ond i’w cyfarfod yn y fan a’r lle yng Nghaerdydd, cyn y gwneir penderfyniad terfynol ynghylch ailgychwyn y gwaith.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 17

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

When you have this meeting will you do all that you can to persuade Celsa to give former ASW workers the first opportunity of any jobs that will be available at the site?

Pan gewch y cyfarfod hwn, a wnewch bopeth a allwch i ddarbwyllo Celsa i roi’r cyfle cyntaf i gyn-weithwyr ASW gael unrhyw swyddi a fydd ar gael ar y safle?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The skills and experience of the steel industry workers are among the major attractions to Celsa of purchasing the assets from the receiver. I do not think that it is willing to give a 100 per cent guarantee on it, but you would expect that if it decides to reactivate the plant—and we must exercise a degree of caution—that the vast majority of the people who will be taken on will be former ASW employees. However, Celsa would not willing to guarantee that all the staff would be former ASW employees.

Sgiliau a phrofiad gweithwyr y diwydiant dur yw rhai o’r atyniadau mwyaf a welodd Celsa wrth brynu’r asedau oddi wrth y derbynnydd. Ni chredaf ei fod yn barod i roi gwarant cwbl sicr ar hynny, ond byddech yn disgwyl, os penderfyna ailgychwyn y gwaith—a rhaid inni fod yn ochelgar i ryw raddau—y bydd y mwyafrif helaeth a gyflogir yn gyn-weithwyr ASW. Er hynny, ni fyddai Celsa yn barod i warantu y byddai’r holl staff yn gyn-weithwyr ASW.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 18

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I, like Lorraine, hope that you will press for most of the jobs to be given to former employees if production continues at the plant. However, it is likely that Celsa will not provide a pension scheme for the workers at its Cardiff plant. Will you support recommendations made to the UK Government in response to its Green Paper that a pensions guarantee body should be established? The body would ensure the pension rights of workers whose company trusts have gone into liquidation and those whose pension trusts, like that of the former Allied Steel and Wire workers, are still involved in the long wind-up process.

Yr wyf fi, fel Lorraine, yn gobeithio y gwnewch bwyso am roi’r rhan fwyaf o’r swyddi i’r cyn-weithwyr os bydd cynhyrchu’n parhau yn y gwaith. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debygol na fydd Celsa yn darparu cynllun pensiwn ar gyfer y gweithwyr yn ei waith yng Nghaerdydd. A wnewch gefnogi’r argymhellion a wnaed i Lywodraeth y DU mewn ymateb i’w Phapur Gwyrdd y dylid sefydlu corff gwarantu pensiynau? Byddai’r corff yn sicrhau hawliau pensiwn gweithwyr yr aeth eu hymddiriedolaethau cwmni i ddwylo’r derbynnydd a’r rhai y mae eu hymddiriedolaethau pensiwn, fel un cyn-weithwyr Allied Steel and Wire, yn dal i fod yn rhan o’r broses hir o ddirwyn i ben.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

We are discussing this issue with Andrew Smith, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. It is difficult to reach a short-term solution, as the size of the shortfall will not be known for at least three years—some say almost five years—after the pension scheme is wound up. However, we continue to press Andrew Smith on this issue to see whether Allied Steel and Wire workers might be the first beneficiaries of a provision of the Pensions Act 1995, if the pension fund deficiency is so great that, when it is finally calculated, they do not even have access to the second state pension that is the successor to SERPS.

Yr ydym yn trafod y mater hwn gydag Andrew Smith, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Waith a Phensiynau. Mae’n anodd cael ateb tymor byr, gan na fydd maint y diffyg yn hysbys am o leiaf dair blynedd—ymron i bum mlynedd, dywed rhai—ar ôl dirwyn y cynllun pensiwn i ben. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn parhau i bwyso ar Andrew Smith ynglŷn â’r mater hwn i weld a allai gweithwyr Allied Steel and Wire fod y cyntaf i elwa ar ddarpariaeth yn y Ddeddf Pensiynau 1995, os yw’r diffyg yn y gronfa bensiwn mor fawr, pan gyfrifir ef o’r diwedd, fel nad ydynt hyd yn oed yn gallu cael yr ail bensiwn gwladol sy’n olynydd i SERPS.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 18

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

We all hope that former ASW workers will be at the front of the queue for any new jobs offered by Celsa. Will you assure the Assembly that, in any future discussions, you will press the company to offer similar rates of pay and terms and conditions to the workers so that they can enjoy a lifestyle similar to that they enjoyed when working for ASW?

Yr ydym oll yn gobeithio mai cyn-weithwyr ASW a gaiff eu hystyried yn gyntaf ar gyfer unrhyw swyddi newydd a gynigir gan Celsa. A wnewch sicrhau’r Cynulliad y byddwch, mewn unrhyw drafodaethau yn y dyfodol, yn pwyso ar y cwmni i gynnig cyfraddau tâl a thelerau ac amodau tebyg i’r gweithwyr fel y gallant fwynhau ffordd o fyw debyg i’r hyn a oedd ganddynt pan oeddent yn gweithio i ASW?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

That was a slightly odd comment from a Conservative—given that Conservatives are believers in the free market, or at least when it is not politically inconvenient for them to do so.

Yr oedd hwnnw’n sylw braidd yn rhyfedd gan Geidwadwr—o ystyried bod Ceidwadwyr yn credu yn y farchnad rydd, neu o leiaf y maent pan nad yw’n wleidyddol anghyfleus iddynt wneud.

Celsa, as the employer, must make its own decisions, decide exactly what terms to offer and discuss them with the trade unions and so on. I do not know whether the terms will be exactly the same. Obviously, we will press for a proper salary, but I cannot pretend that we will be writing the pay cheques for Celsa. Ultimately, it is for Celsa, as the employer, to decide on that. That is the company’s right and privilege. We hope that it is coming here for all the right reasons—and I have no reason to suppose that it is not—and will re-employ the majority of former ASW workers so that there are sufficient workers to feed the steel that is produced at the plant—merchant bars and sections and reinforcing bars—into the market at a profitable price.

Rhaid i Celsa, fel cyflogwr, wneud ei benderfyniadau ei hun, penderfynu’n union pa delerau i’w cynnig a’u trafod gyda’r undebau llafur ac yn y blaen. Ni wn a fydd y telerau yr un fath yn union. Wrth gwrs, gwnawn bwyso am gyflog teg, ond ni allaf gymryd arnaf mai ni fydd yn ysgrifennu’r sieciau tâl ar ran Celsa. Yn y pen draw, mater i Celsa, fel y cyflogwr, yw penderfynu hynny. Dyna hawl a braint y cwmni. Gobeithiwn ei fod yn dod yma am y rhesymau iawn—ac nid oes gennyf unrhyw le i dybio nad ydyw—ac y bydd yn ailgyflogi’r rhan fwyaf o gyn-weithwyr ASW fel bod digon o weithwyr i borthi’r dur a gynhyrchir yn y gwaith—barrau marsiant a hydoedd a barrau atgyfnerthu—i’r farchnad am bris proffidiol.

Datblygu Economaidd mewn Ardaloedd Gwledig

Economic Development in Rural Areas

Q7 David Davies spoken in English p. 19

C7 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

What is being done to improve economic development in rural areas? (OAQ21942) [R]

Beth sy’n cael ei wneud i wella datblygu economaidd yn yr ardaloedd gwledig? (OAQ21942) [R]

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

We set out our commitment to transform the economy of Wales in the national economic development strategy, ‘A Winning Wales’, which is concerned with increasing the prosperity of Wales as a whole. However, to support our specific commitment to rural Wales, the Welsh Development Agency published a strategy in July 2002, ‘Supporting Rural Wales’. As well as the Assembly’s rural development plan for Wales and the rural recovery plan, on 26 November 2002 the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad launched a rural community action programme. Phase one targets nine of the rural counties, including Ceredigion, Powys, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Gwynedd.

Gwnaethom nodi ein hymrwymiad i drawsffurfio economi Cymru yn y strategaeth datblygu economaidd cenedlaethol, ‘Cymru’n Ennill’, sy’n ymwneud â chynyddu ffyniant Cymru gyfan. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn ategu ein hymrwymiad penodol i’r Gymru wledig, cyhoeddodd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru strategaeth yng Ngorffennaf 2002, ‘Cefnogi Cymru Wledig’. Yn ogystal â chynllun datblygu gwledig y Cynulliad i Gymru a’r cynllun adfer gwledig, ar 26 Tachwedd 2002 lansiodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor raglen gweithredu cymunedol gwledig. Mae’r cam cyntaf yn targedu naw o’r siroedd gwledig, gan gynnwys Ceredigion, Powys, Sir Benfro, Sir Gaerfyrddin a Gwynedd.

David Davies spoken in English p. 19

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

That is all very impressive. However, do you agree that economic development will be severely affected by the on-site fallen stock burial regulations when they come into force at the end of March? No information has been issued on compliance or on whether financial help will be available for those affected. What advice do you have for rural dwellers who face yet another obstacle to their economic development as a result of these regulations?

Mae hynny oll yn drawiadol dros ben. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn cytuno y bydd y rheoliadau claddu anifeiliaid marw ar y safle yn effeithio’n ddifrifol ar ddatblygu economaidd pan ddeuant i rym ddiwedd Mawrth? Ni chyhoeddwyd gwybodaeth am gydymffurfio nac i ddweud a fydd cymorth ariannol ar gael i’r rhai yr effeithir arnynt. Pa gyngor sydd gennych i drigolion gwledig sy’n wynebu un rhwystr arall eto i’w datblygiad economaidd o ganlyniad i’r rheoliadau hyn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I would not claim to be Wales’s leading expert on on-site stock burial, but I will ensure that those who are—including the Deputy First Minister—write to the Member for Monmouth.

Ni fyddwn yn honni mai myfi yw’r prif arbenigwr yng Nghymru ar gladdu anifeiliaid ar y safle, ond gwnaf sicrhau y bydd y rhai sydd—gan gynnwys y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog—yn ysgrifennu at yr Aelod dros Fynwy.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 20

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

First Minister, do you agree that the re-establishment of a free advisory service to farmers—Farming Connect—by the partnership Government has been a tremendous success? The Conservative Government abolished free advice to farmers and cut their payments by 25 per cent. The Conservatives believe in a free market that destroyed rural Wales. In contrast, the partnership Government is laying the foundation for a prosperous rural Wales.

Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno bod ailsefydlu gwasanaeth ymgynghorol am ddim i ffermwyr—Cyswllt Ffermio—gan y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth wedi bod yn llwyddiant aruthrol? Gwnaeth y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiddymu cyngor am ddim i ffermwyr a thorri eu taliadau o 25 y cant. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn credu mewn marchnad rydd a ddinistriodd y Gymru wledig. Mewn cyferbyniad â hynny, mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn gosod sylfaen i Gymru wledig ffyniannus.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I agree that what happened to ADAS was the result of a foolish error of judgment by a previous Government. In re-establishing that type of service through the Farming Connect package, and other measures that help farmers to work out what is their best future, I am sure that we will help to create a prosperous agricultural industry.

Cytunaf fod yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i’r Gwasanaeth Datblygu a Chynghori Amaethyddol yn ganlyniad i gamfarn ffôl gan Lywodraeth flaenorol. Wrth ailsefydlu’r math hwnnw o wasanaeth drwy becyn Cyswllt Ffermio, a mesurau eraill sy’n helpu ffermwyr i ganfod beth fydd orau iddynt i’r dyfodol, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn helpu i greu diwydiant amaethyddol ffyniannus.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 20

Pan ddychwelasom i’r Cynulliad yn yr hydref, credai llawer ohonom na allai sefyllfa’r economi wledig waethygu. Fodd bynnag, bu ichi benderfynu penodi Michael German yn Weinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros amaeth a datblygu gwledig. Yn wyneb galwadau gan ddau grŵp cynrychioladol, gwybodus am ei ymddiswyddiad oherwydd dau fater gwahanol, a’r feirniadaeth gyson ohono gan lu o unigolion a grwpiau am iddo fethu â delio â materion o fewn ei bortffolio, a dderbyniwch mai’r cyfraniad mwyaf y gallech ei wneud i hybu’r economi wledig yw cael gwared ohono ac y byddai hynny’n cael ei groesawu’n fawr yng nghefn gwlad?

When we returned to the Assembly in the autumn, many of us believed that the rural economy’s situation could not get any worse. However, you decided to appoint Michael German as the Minister responsible for agriculture and rural development. In the face of calls from two representative and informed groups for his resignation because of two separate matters, and the constant criticism by many individuals and groups of his failure to deal with matters within his portfolio, do you accept that the biggest contribution that you could make to advance the rural economy would be to get rid of him and that that would be warmly welcomed in rural areas?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20

Ni welaf beth yw’r cysylltiad rhwng eich cynnig a chreu swyddi ychwanegol. Problem barhaus Plaid Cymru yw ei bod yn perfformio styntiau fel hyn. Nid oes gan y blaid bolisïau. Beth yw’r cysylltiad rhwng y ddau beth? Sut y byddwch yn creu ffyniant yn yr economi wledig? Yr ydych yn cyflwyno’r syniadau hyn sy’n styntiau yn unig. Nid ydynt yn gysylltiedig â’r mater dan sylw. Ble mae’r symptomau, ble mae’r achos, a beth yw’r effaith? Mae’n rhaid i chi gofio’r egwyddor honno ac anghofio am y styntiau.

I cannot see what connects your proposal to creating extra jobs. Plaid Cymru’s persistent problem is that it pulls stunts such as this. The party has no policies. What connects those issues? How will you create prosperity in the rural economy? You introduce these ideas that are just stunts. They are are not connected to the issue under consideration. Where are the symptoms, where is the cause, and what is the effect? You must remember that principle and forget about the stunts.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 21

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

You should think carefully about your response to the crisis that the farming community faces. Do you accept that the frustration that is spilling over into calls for the the Deputy First Minister to resign is the result of people being totally frustrated with this Government’s failure to deliver payments to them on time? If you are serious about wanting to tackle the rural economy, get your act together and get those payments out.

Dylech feddwl yn ofalus ynghylch eich ymateb i’r argyfwng y mae’r gymuned ffermio yn ei wynebu. A ydych yn derbyn bod y rhwystredigaeth sy’n arwain at alwadau am ymddiswyddiad y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ganlyniad i’r ffaith bod pobl yn gwbl rwystredig oherwydd methiant y Llywodraeth hon i’w talu’n brydlon? Os ydych o ddifrif ynghylch eich dymuniad i fynd i’r afael â’r economi wledig, rhowch drefn ar eich pethau a gwnewch y taliadau.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The belief that payments are late because they have not been paid on the first day on which it was possible for them to be paid is a myth, Ieuan. We regret the fact, as farmers anywhere would, that farmers in Wales are being paid later than farmers in Scotland or England. That is happening this year and we regret it. There is a problem, but we are sure that once the new computer system is up and running we will be ahead of England. We have been ahead of England in the past and if England or Scotland were to invest in a new computer system, I am sure that they will have the same problems as we have had. It is not correct to say that the payments are late when they are being made within the payment window established by the European Union. To claim that they are late when they are not is to mislead farmers, who, I think, know the truth anyway, as well as others. You give the impression that if a payment can be made between, let us say, 1 October and 1 March, it is mandatory to make the payment on 1 October. It is not: it can be paid at any time during that window. We would like to make the payments on 1 October, but there are times when we cannot, such as when we invest in a new computer system. The same will apply when England and Scotland invest in new computer systems. I always like to make payments ahead of England and Scotland. However, if, because of investment in new computers, that cannot be done, that is worthwhile because it will pay dividends in the remaining nine of the 10 years, let us say, during which that computer system will operate.

Nid oes sail i’r gred bod taliadau’n hwyr am na thalwyd hwy ar y diwrnod cyntaf y gellid gwneud hynny, Ieuan. Testun gofid i ni, fel i ffermwyr yn unrhyw le, yw bod ffermwyr yng Nghymru’n cael eu talu’n hwyrach na ffermwyr yn yr Alban neu Loegr. Mae hynny’n digwydd eleni ac mae’n destun gofid i ni. Mae problem, ond yr ydym yn sicr, pan fydd y system gyfrifiadurol newydd ar waith, y byddwn ar y blaen i Loegr. Buom ar y blaen i Loegr yn y gorffennol a phe byddai Lloegr neu’r Alban yn buddsoddi mewn system gyfrifiadurol newydd, yr wyf yn siŵr y caent yr un problemau ag a gawsom ni. Anghywir yw dweud bod y taliadau’n hwyr a hwythau’n cael eu gwneud o fewn y ffenestr dalu a sefydlwyd gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Camarwain ffermwyr yw honni eu bod yn hwyr pan nad ydynt, a chredaf eu bod hwy, ac eraill, yn gwybod y gwir, beth bynnag. Yr ydych yn rhoi’r argraff, os gellir gwneud taliad rhwng 1 Hydref ac 1 Mawrth, dyweder, ei bod yn orfodol gwneud y taliad ar 1 Hydref. Nid ydyw: gellir ei dalu ar unrhyw adeg yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Hoffem wneud y taliadau ar 1 Hydref, ond ni allwn wneud hynny ar rai adegau, fel yr adeg yr ydym yn buddsoddi mewn system gyfrifiadurol newydd. Bydd hynny’n berthnasol pan fydd Lloegr a’r Alban yn buddsoddi mewn systemau cyfrifiadurol newydd. Yr wyf bob amser yn hoffi gwneud taliadau cyn Lloegr a’r Alban. Fodd bynnag, os na ellir gwneud hynny, oherwydd buddsoddi mewn cyfrifiaduron newydd, mae hynny’n fuddiol oherwydd bydd yn talu ar ei ganfed yn y naw o’r deng mlynedd sy’n weddill, dyweder, pan fydd y system gyfrifiadurol honno’n gweithredu.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 22

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will you clarify the situation regarding the window period for organic conversion payments, woodland grant payments, environmentally sensitive area payments and the Farming Connect Objective 1 payment? I do not think that there is a window period for those payments. The banks will now not give hardship letters with regard to those, because it is a legal requirement or debt. That is the problem that the Assembly faces.

A wnewch esbonio’r sefyllfa ynghylch y cyfnod amser ar gyfer taliadau trawsnewid organig, taliadau grantiau coetir, taliadau ardaloedd amgylcheddol-sensitif a thaliadau Amcan 1 Cyswllt Ffermio? Ni chredaf fod cyfnod ffenestr ar gyfer y taliadau hynny. Ni wnaiff y banciau roi llythyrau caledi mewn cysylltiad â’r rhain bellach, am ei fod yn ofyniad cyfreithiol neu’n ddyled. Dyna’r broblem y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei hwynebu.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The schemes that you mentioned may well not have a payment window: I do not know. However, I will look into the matter and ensure that Mike German or I write to you on those specific issues, particularly any problems that are caused for the banks. I am not trying to defend the present situation: it is regrettable, but it will happen every time anyone decides to change the payment system by investing in a new computer. That is the important point. It is an investment to ensure that we make faster, better payments in the future. Unfortunately, you will have a transitional problem during the year that you make that investment.

Mae’n ddigon posibl nad oes ffenestr dalu ar gyfer y cynlluniau y gwnaethoch eu crybwyll: nid wyf yn gwybod. Fodd bynnag, ymchwiliaf i’r mater a sicrhau bod Mike German neu finnau’n ysgrifennu atoch ar y materion penodol hynny, yn enwedig unrhyw broblemau a achosir i’r banciau. Nid wyf yn ceisio amddiffyn y sefyllfa bresennol: mae’n destun gofid, ond bydd yn digwydd bob tro y mae rhywun yn penderfynu newid y system dalu drwy fuddsoddi mewn cyfrifiadur newydd. Dyna’r pwynt pwysig. Mae’n fuddsoddiad i sicrhau y gwnawn daliadau’n well ac yn gyflymach yn y dyfodol. Gwaetha’r modd, ceir problem drosiannol yn ystod y flwyddyn pan wneir y buddsoddiad hwnnw.

Polisi Iechyd

Health Policy

Q8 Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 22

C8 Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will the First Minister make a statement on how he is developing his administration’s health policy? (OAQ21935)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar sut y mae’n datblygu polisi iechyd ei weinyddiaeth? (OAQ21935)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The Minister for Health and Social Services is progressing the implementation of ‘Improving Health in Wales’ with my support and that of the Cabinet. This has resulted in shorter waiting times in targeted specialties, significant increases in NHS staff training and capacity and a wide-range of improvements to patient services.

Mae’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn hyrwyddo’r gwaith o weithredu ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’ gyda’m cefnogaeth i a’r Cabinet. Mae hynny wedi arwain at fyrhau amseroedd aros mewn arbenigaethau a dargedwyd, cynnydd sylweddol yn hyfforddiant a gallu staff y GIG ac ystod eang o welliannau mewn gwasanaethau i gleifion.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 23

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

That is what the civil service brief may say, but the truth is that this has been disastrous, has it not? Despite having almost 50 million less inhabitants than England, Wales has 83,000 more patients waiting over six months for out-patient treatment and 4,800 more patients waiting more than 18 months for in-patient treatment. Why, other than your administration’s bungling incompetence, is that the case?

Efallai mai hynny a ddywed cyfarwyddyd y gwasanaeth sifil, ond y gwir yw bod hyn wedi bod yn drychinebus, onid yw? Er bod ganddi bron 50 miliwn yn llai o drigolion na Lloegr, mae gan Gymru 83,000 yn fwy o gleifion yn aros yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth claf allanol a 4,800 yn fwy o gleifion yn aros yn hwy na 18 mis am driniaeth claf mewnol. Pam y mae felly, heblaw am aflerwch di-glem eich gweinyddiaeth chi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I am sorry that you do not visit more hospitals to see what is going on in terms of investment and training, as I did last week during my visit to Morriston. I saw the £8.6 million new accident and emergency department that is being built. The builders are working on it now and it will be splendid when it opens in a year’s time. Similarly, there will be a major new recess room in the Princess of Wales hospital, Bridgend, and a fast-track treatment initiative is being implemented.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad ydych yn ymweld â mwy o ysbytai er mwyn gweld beth sy’n mynd ymlaen o ran buddsoddi a hyfforddi, fel y gwneuthum i yr wythnos diwethaf yn ystod fy ymweliad â Threforys. Gwelais yr adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys newydd werth £8.6 miliwn sy’n cael ei chodi. Mae’r adeiladwyr yn gweithio arni’n awr a bydd yn un rhagorol pan fydd yn agor ymhen blwyddyn. Yn yr un modd, bydd ystafell seibiant fawr newydd yn ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru, Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a rhoddir menter driniaeth garlam ar waith.

However, your question is on health policy. You may regret having asked it, but that is the subject of your question. Therefore, what is our health policy? We are investing a great deal into developing fast-track consultant triage. It is a superb scheme that started at the Royal Glamorgan hospital, which I witnessed at the Princess of Wales hospital. It is designed to prevent inappropriate overnight admission. The consultants, Dr Williamson in the Princess of Wales hospital and Dr Strang in the Royal Glamorgan, are looking into how they can get people back home, if at all possible. That does not count as a ‘treatment’ even though it is exactly what the patient needs and wants.

Fodd bynnag, mae’ch cwestiwn yn ymwneud â pholisi iechyd. Efallai y byddwch yn edifar ei ofyn, ond dyna bwnc eich cwestiwn. Felly, beth yw ein polisi iechyd? Yr ydym yn buddsoddi llawer iawn mewn datblygu blaenoriaethu carlam gan ymgynghorwyr. Mae’n gynllun rhagorol, a ddechreuodd yn ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg, a welais yn ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru. Ei fwriad yw atal arosiadau amhriodol dros nos. Mae’r ymgynghorwyr, Dr Williamson yn ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru a Dr Strang yn ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg, yn ystyried sut y gallant gael pobl yn ôl yn eu cartrefi, os oes modd gwneud hynny. Nid yw hynny’n cyfrif yn ‘driniaeth’ er mai dyna’n union yw angen a dymuniad y claf.

Ffigurau Diweithdra Diweddaraf ar gyfer Cymru

Latest Unemployment Figures for Wales

Q9 Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 23

C9 Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will the First Minister make a statement on the latest unemployment figures for Wales? (OAQ21950)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y ffigurau di-weithdra diweddaraf ar gyfer Cymru? (OAQ21950)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

These figures are good news for Wales and show that the policies in ‘A Winning Wales’ and the Objective 1 programme are making an impact. Unemployment in Wales is at its lowest level since the mid-1970s. The number of those in employment increased by 36,000, or 54,000 if you measure according to those in full-time employment in the year up to November 2002. The associated increase in the employment rate among the working age population of 1.9 percentage points is the biggest increase across the UK.

Mae’r ffigurau hyn yn newyddion da i Gymru ac yn dangos bod y polisïau yn ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ a rhaglen Amcan 1 yn cael effaith. Mae diweithdra yng Nghymru ar ei isaf ers canol y 1970au. Bu cynnydd o 36,000 yn nifer y rhai mewn gwaith, neu 54,000 os mesurir hynny yn ôl y rhai mewn gwaith amser llawn yn y flwyddyn hyd at fis Tachwedd 2002. Y cynnydd cysylltiedig yn y gyfradd cyflogaeth ymysg y boblogaeth sydd o oedran gweithio o 1.9 y cant yw’r cynnydd mwyaf ledled y DU.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 24

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Despite the negative whingeing of Plaid Cymru—one of the parties of Wales—will you join me in acknowledging the success of the new learning network, a partnership involving Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council, Neath Port Talbot college, and Neath Port Talbot council for voluntary service? Since October 2000, it has received over £3 million in Objective 1 funding, enabling almost 5,000 people to gain access to education and training opportunities, resulting in some participants re-entering the job market and gaining employment.

Er gwaethaf cwyno negyddol Plaid Cymru—un o bleidiau Cymru—a wnewch ymuno â mi i gydnabod llwyddiant y rhwydwaith dysgu newydd, partneriaeth sy’n cynnwys Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot, coleg Castell-nedd Port Talbot, a chyngor gwasanaethau gwirfoddol Castell-nedd Port Talbot? Ers Hydref 2000, mae wedi derbyn dros £3 miliwn o gyllid Amcan 1, sydd wedi galluogi ymron i 5,000 o bobl i gael cyfleoedd addysg a hyfforddiant, ac mae rhai a gymerodd ran wedi dychwelyd i’r farchnad swyddi ac wedi cael gwaith o ganlyniad.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I join you in commending the work of the three partners in Neath and Port Talbot’s new learning network. People often find it difficult to get back into the labour market without receiving some form of training, which then acts as a bridge between being unemployed or inactive and getting into work. The job opportunities are sometimes available, but people who are unemployed or economically inactive cannot access them because they have not received the relevant training. This scheme is an excellent example of how to get people trained and capable of taking the jobs on offer.

Ymunaf â chi i ganmol gwaith y tri phartner yn rhwydwaith dysgu newydd Castell-nedd a Port Talbot. Mae pobl yn aml yn ei chael yn anodd dychwelyd i’r farchnad lafur heb ryw fath o hyfforddiant, sydd wedyn yn bont rhwng bod yn ddi-waith neu’n anweithgar a dechrau gweithio. Mae cyfleoedd am swyddi ar gael weithiau, ond nid yw pobl sy’n ddi-waith neu’n economaidd anweithgar yn gallu manteisio arnynt am nad ydynt wedi derbyn yr hyfforddiant perthnasol. Mae’r cynllun hwn yn enghraifft ragorol o’r modd i hyfforddi pobl a’u galluogi i gymryd y swyddi a gynigir.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 24

Yn ardal Caernarfon mae dros 700 o bobl allan o waith; ac mae’r ffigur ddwywaith yn uwch dros fy etholaeth. Ar yr un pryd ceir cyflogwyr sy’n methu dod o hyd i bobl â sgiliau arbennig megis plastrwyr, trydanwyr, plymwyr ac yn y blaen. Pa ymdrech y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi ei gwneud dros y tair blynedd a hanner diwethaf i geisio sicrhau bod cynlluniau prentisiaeth addas ar gael er mwyn galluogi cyflogwyr i ddod o hyd i weithwyr a galluogi’r di-waith i gael y sgiliau arbennig i ddod o hyd i waith?

In the Caernarfon area, over 700 people are out of work; and the figure is twice that in the whole of my constituency. At the same time, there are employers who cannot find people with specific skills such as plasterers, electricians, plumbers and so on. What effort has your Government made over the past three and half years to try to ensure that appropriate apprenticeship schemes are in place to enable employers to find a workforce and the unemployed to acquire the specialist skills required to find work?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 25

Mae hwn yn gwestiwn pwysig. Dylem groesawu’r ffaith bod nifer o bobl sy’n cymryd mantais o’r cynlluniau prentisiaeth fodern wedi codi o 9,000 pan sefydlwyd y Cynulliad i tua 12,000 heddiw oherwydd bod pobl hŷn bellach yn gallu dilyn prentisiaethau. Nid ymhlith cyfranogiad pobl ifanc y bu cynnydd mawr, ond ymhlith cyfranogiad pobl hŷn na 19 oed ac, yn aml, hŷn na 25 oed. Nid oes uchafswm oedran bellach ar gyfer prentisiaethau modern. Yr ydym yn arloesi o ran hynny yng Nghymru a dyna sydd i gyfrif, i raddau helaeth, am gynnydd o draean yn nifer y bobl sy’n dilyn prentisiaethau modern.

That is an important question. We should welcome the fact that the number of people taking up modern apprenticeship schemes has increased from around 9,000 when this Assembly was established to around 12,000 today because older people are now entitled to take up apprenticeships. The substantial increase is not the result of increased participation among young people but, rather, in the participation of those aged over 19 and, often, over 25. There is now no upper age limit on modern apprenticeships. In that regard, we are pioneering in Wales, and that is what accounts, to a great extent, for the one-thirds increase in the number of people taking up modern apprenticeships.

Y DU yn Aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

UK Membership of the European Union

Q10 Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 25

C10 Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Will the First Minister make a statement on the benefits to Wales of the UK being a member of the European Union? (OAQ21925)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y manteision i Gymru o ran bod y DU yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ21925)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 25

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Leaving aside the Objective 1 programme, which has already created 6,000 jobs and brings the prospect of a further 36,000 jobs as a result of the 380 schemes that have already been launched and for which funding has been committed, there are also much wider benefits. That is particularly true if the euro returns to a purchasing power parity somewhere near its original launch rate of 70p to the pound, as it is now showing signs of doing. When that happens, not only will it be much easier to welcome eastern European countries into the union and view them as opportunities, not a threat, but also there will be benefits in terms of exporting across the eurozone to Germany, France, Italy, Spain and other markets within the European Union.

Heb ystyried rhaglen Amcan 1, sydd eisoes wedi creu 6,000 o swyddi ac yn cynnig y gobaith o 36,000 o swyddi ymhellach o ganlyniad i’r 380 o gynlluniau a lansiwyd eisoes ac y neilltuwyd cyllid ar eu cyfer, mae manteision mwy cyffredinol o lawer hefyd. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir os bydd yr ewro yn mynd yn ôl at baredd pŵer prynu tebyg i’w gyfradd wreiddiol wrth ei lansio o 70c i’r bunt, fel y mae’n ymddangos y bydd. Pan ddigwydd hynny, nid yn unig y bydd yn haws o lawer croesawu gwledydd dwyrain Ewrop i’r undeb a’u hystyried yn gyfleoedd, ac nid yn fygythiad, ond bydd manteision hefyd o ran allforio ar draws ardal yr ewro i’r Almaen, Ffrainc, yr Eidal, Sbaen a marchnadoedd eraill yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 25

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Thursday is the thirtieth anniversary of the UK joining the European Economic Community. Do you agree that one benefit of that membership has been stability for this country and better relations across the whole of the European Union? Therefore, do you share my concern that those good relations are currently being undermined by the Westminster Government’s determination to follow in the footsteps of George Bush Junior, rather than pay due heed and attention to the voices of reason expressed by France and Germany on the Iraq situation?

Ar ddydd Iau, bydd yn 30 mlynedd ers i’r DU ymuno â Chymuned Economaidd Ewrop. A gytunwch mai un o fanteision yr aelodaeth honno yw’r sefydlogrwydd a gafodd y wlad hon a gwell cysylltiadau ledled yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? Gan hynny, a ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder bod y cysylltiadau da hynny’n cael eu tanseilio ar hyn o bryd gan benderfyniad Llywodraeth San Steffan i ddilyn yn ôl-troed George Bush yr Ieuengaf, yn hytrach na rhoi sylw dyladwy i leisiau rhesymol Ffrainc a’r Almaen ynghylch sefyllfa Irac?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

There are three broad positions—although there are probably 33 in all—on the situation regarding the possibility of war in Iraq, United Nations sanctions and so on. France is in the middle, and its position is that more time should be given to the UN inspectors to complete their work before a final decision is made. As I understand it, the German position, under the Schroeder coalition, is that it would not want to be engaged in war in any circumstances. The British position, under Tony Blair, is that we want to work through the United Nations, but perhaps without the same patience as the French in waiting for the Blix team to complete its work.

Mae tri safbwynt ar y sefyllfa yn fras—er bod 33 at ei gilydd, yn ôl pob tebyg—ynghylch y posibilrwydd o ryfel yn Irac, sancsiynau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig ac yn y blaen. Mae Ffrainc yn y canol, a’i safbwynt hi yw y dylid rhoi mwy o amser i arolygwyr y Cenhedloedd Unedig gwblhau eu gwaith cyn penderfynu’n derfynol. Hyd a ddeallaf, safbwynt yr Almaen, o dan glymblaid Schroeder, yw na fyddai’n dymuno mynd i ryfel o dan unrhyw amgylchiadau. Safbwynt Prydain, o dan Tony Blair, yw ein bod yn dymuno gweithio drwy’r Cenhedloedd Unedig, ond efallai heb yr un amynedd ag sydd gan Ffrainc wrth ddisgwyl i dîm Blix gwblhau ei waith.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 26

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

One undoubted advantage of EU membership is security of food supply and a good system of agricultural support—or at least it would be if it were properly administered. Do you agree that your Deputy First Minister’s tenure is chaotic and that he has been a complete disaster for rural Wales in failing to ensure prompt payments? Although you made light of the situation earlier, many of the payments are late and are outside of the proper payment window; I hope, therefore, that you will reconsider your earlier comment. Is his failure to grapple with this important job due to the fact that he is living in cloud-cuckoo land, because he is lacking in vision, or simply because he is a bungling incompetent—in which case, should you not, therefore, fire him?

Un o fanteision diamheuol aelodaeth o’r UE yw cyflenwad bwyd sicr a system cymorth amaethyddol dda—neu byddai pe câi ei gweinyddu’n iawn. A gytunwch fod cyfnod eich Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ei swydd wedi bod yn ddi-drefn ac iddo fod yn drychineb llwyr i’r Gymru wledig drwy fethu â sicrhau taliadau prydlon? Er ichi drin y sefyllfa’n ysgafn yn gynharach, mae llawer o’r taliadau’n hwyr a thu hwnt i’r ffenestr dalu priodol; gobeithiaf, felly, y gwnewch ailystyried eich sylw cynharach. A yw ei fethiant i fynd i’r afael â’r swydd bwysig hon yn ganlyniad i’r ffaith ei fod yn byw ym myd ffantasi, am nad oes ganddo weledigaeth, neu ai oherwydd mai bwnglerwr ydyw—ac os felly, oni ddylech ei ddiswyddo?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I note that you stumbled over the words ‘cloud-cuckoo land’; it is probably because you do not believe that yourself. I am not aware of any payments being outside the window. Peter Rogers can write to me on that issue, but I do not think that you are right, Nick. As I have said previously, it is unfortunate but, from time to time, you must invest in new computer payment systems. In doing so, we have fallen behind the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom, when we are, normally, ahead of them. I repeat that I regret that; I do not make light of it. I do not take pride in that we are probably fourth in terms of the speed of payments this year. However, I am confident that, when the computer system is up and running, we will be better than the other countries, as we have been in the past.

Sylwaf eich bod wedi baglu dros y geiriau ‘byd ffantasi’; mae hynny am nad ydych yn credu hynny eich hun, yn ôl pob tebyg. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod unrhyw daliadau y tu allan i’r ffenestr dalu. Caiff Peter Rogers ysgrifennu ataf ar y mater hwnnw, ond ni chredaf eich bod yn gywir, Nick. Fel y dywedais o’r blaen, mae’n anffodus ond, o bryd i’w gilydd, rhaid buddsoddi mewn systemau talu cyfrifiadurol newydd. Wrth wneud hynny, yr ydym bellach ar ei hôl hi, o’n cymharu â rhannau cyfansoddol eraill y Deyrnas Unedig, tra byddwn ar y blaen iddynt fel arfer. Dywedaf eto fod hynny’n destun gofid i mi; nid wyf yn ei drin yn ysgafn. Nid wyf yn ymfalchïo yn y ffaith ein bod yn bedwerydd, yn ôl pob tebyg, o ran cyflymder talu eleni. Er hynny, yr wyf yn ffyddiog, pan fydd y system gyfrifiadurol ar waith, y byddwn yn rhagori ar y gwledydd eraill, fel y gwnaethom yn y gorffennol.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 27

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I am glad that you acknowledge that we are fourth. It certainly is not a matter of pride, and you should address this. The Deputy First Minister has made light of the situation. It is causing serious cash-flow problems for farmers, which has a wider impact on the rural community and beyond. Farmers are also having problems with tax payments. You cannot stand up here and pretend that it is not a serious issue because it is. These payments are late; that has been acknowledged. The farmers’ unions, farmers and some of your back row Members recognise that it is a serious situation. It is about time that you realised that. The Deputy First Minister is calling for extra powers; it is about time that he started to use the powers that he already has. Is it not time for you to get to grips with this?

Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn cydnabod ein bod yn bedwerydd. Nid yw’n fater y dylid ymfalchïo ynddo, yn sicr, a dylech fynd i’r afael â hyn. Mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wedi trin y sefyllfa’n ysgafn. Mae’n peri problemau difrifol i ffermwyr o ran eu llif arian, a chaiff hynny effaith ehangach ar y gymuned wledig a thu hwnt. Mae ffermwyr yn profi problemau o ran taliadau treth hefyd. Ni allwch sefyll yno ac esgus nad yw hyn yn fater difrifol, oherwydd dyna ydyw. Mae’r taliadau hyn yn hwyr; cydnabuwyd hynny. Mae undebau’r ffermwyr, ffermwyr a rhai o’ch Aelodau yn y rhes gefn yn cydnabod ei bod yn broblem ddifrifol. Mae’n hen bryd i chi sylweddoli hynny. Mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn galw am bwerau ychwanegol; mae’n hen bryd iddo ddechrau defnyddio’r pwerau sydd ganddo eisoes. Onid yw’n bryd ichi fynd i’r afael â hyn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

You must not misuse the word ‘late’. If, by ‘late’, you mean that the payments were not made on the first day on which it was possible to make them, then they are late. However, no-one accepts that definition. The situation is regrettable, but the payments are not slow. It is wrong and is an abuse of the English language to say that they are. We regret that they are late, but we take the issue seriously, as do our civil servants. Many of them are burning the midnight oil to get hardship payments out as quickly as possible, where they see evidence that the banks are pressing and the cashflow is critical to the continuation of a farming business. We are doing that, and our agricultural offices should be commended. It is regrettable, but it is a consequence of making a major investment in new payment systems. Once that payment system is up and running, I am confident that our payments will be made faster than the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom.

Ni ddylech gam-ddefnyddio’r gair ‘hwyr’. Os mai’r hyn a olygwch wrth ‘hwyr’ yw na wnaed y taliadau ar y diwrnod cyntaf yr oedd yn bosibl eu gwneud, maent yn hwyr. Fodd bynnag, nid oes neb yn derbyn y diffiniad hwnnw. Mae’r sefyllfa’n destun gofid, ond nid yw’r taliadau’n araf. Mae hynny’n anghywir a chamddefnyddio geiriau yw dweud eu bod. Mae’n ofid i ni eu bod yn hwyr, ond yr ydym yn cymryd y mater o ddifrif, fel y mae ein gweision sifil. Mae llawer ohonynt yn llosgi’r gannwyll yn hwyr i anfon taliadau caledi mor gyflym ag y bo modd, pan welant dystiolaeth bod y banciau’n pwyso a bod y llif arian yn hollbwysig i barhad busnes ffermio. Yr ydym yn gwneud hynny, a dylid canmol ein swyddfeydd amaethyddol. Mae’n destun gofid, ond mae’n ganlyniad i fuddsoddiad mawr mewn systemau talu newydd. Pan fydd y system dalu honno ar waith, hyderaf y gwneir ein taliadau’n gyflymach na rhannau cyfansoddol eraill y Deyrnas Unedig.

Cwestiwn Brys

Urgent Question

Adroddiad DEFRA

DEFRA Report

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 28

Yr wyf wedi cytuno o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.31 i ganiatáu i Rhodri Glyn Thomas ofyn cwestiwn brys, sydd o bwys cyhoeddus, i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor.

I have agreed under Standing Order No. 6.31 to allow Rhodri Glyn Thomas to ask a question, which is of urgent public importance, to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Will the Minster make a statement in light of confirmation from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that the report, ‘Monitoring Large Scale Releases of Genetically Modified Crops (EPG 1/5/84), Incorporating Report Project EPG 1/5/30: Monitoring Releases of Genetically Modified Crop Plants on the field trials of GM crops’ was sent to the National Assembly for Wales on 23 August 2002? (EAQ22316)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad yng ngolwg y cadarnhad gan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig fod yr adroddiad, ‘Monitoring Large Scale Releases of Genetically Modified Crops (EPG 1/5/84), Incorporating Report Project EPG 1/5/30: Monitoring Releases of Genetically Modified Crop Plants on the field trials of GM crops’ wedi’i anfon at Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ar 23 Awst 2002? (EAQ22316)

Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 28

Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I am grateful for the question because it gives me an early opportunity to apologise unreservedly for having inadvertently misled the Assembly about the whereabouts of this report. I was told yesterday that the report was included in a bundle of papers that were sent to my officials from the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment in advance of its meeting on 5 September 2002. Although it remains the case that DEFRA had not informed us that it intended to publish the report, we were not aware that ACRE had sent us copies earlier. It was not my intention, or that of officials, to do other than faithfully report the facts as we were aware of them at the time. Those facts are as follows.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwn gan ei fod yn rhoi cyfle buan imi ymddiheuro’n llaes am fod wedi camarwain y Cynulliad drwy amryfusedd ynghylch lle’r oedd yr adroddiad hwn. Dywedwyd wrthyf ddoe fod yr adroddiad wedi’i gynnwys mewn sypyn o bapurau a anfonwyd at fy swyddogion gan y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’r Amgylchedd cyn ei gyfarfod ar 5 Medi 2002. Er ei bod yn wir nad oedd DEFRA wedi ein hysbysu ei fod yn bwriadu cyhoeddi’r adroddiad, nid oeddem yn ymwybodol bod y pwyllgor wedi anfon copïau atom yn gynharach. Nid oedd yn fwriad gennyf fi, na’r swyddogion, wneud dim ond adrodd y ffeithiau yn gywir fel y gwyddem amdanynt ar y pryd. Mae’r rheini fel a ganlyn.

On 23 August, my officials received papers from an ACRE meeting. Officials studied the agenda for any relevant items and concluded that there was no need to attend the meeting. None of the papers, including this report, were brought to my attention at the time, nor subsequently. I took all reasonable steps as a Minister to assure myself that we had not received a copy of this report. I was not aware of its existence, or its contents, when the Genetically Modified Organisms (Deliberate Release) (Wales) Regulations 2002 were debated in this Chamber on 18 December. Even so, the evidence in this report would have reinforced the need for further regulation, as that directive provides, and not the other way around. I did not receive a formal copy of this particular report from DEFRA, nor notification of its intention to publish it on Christmas eve. I have asked officials to produce a report on why this has happened, and I will publish it when it is available. I am writing to members of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee today to explain the details further. In particular, I will pass on copies of my letter to Michael Meacher, protesting that we had not received any formal notice from DEFRA of this report, which remains the case. I did not believe and I do not believe that liaison between officials and DEFRA was acceptable. The truth is that I was unaware of the report’s existence, and I hope that Members will accept my apology that the Assembly may have been misled on its whereabouts, and accept that I have, in good faith, answered questions on this matter to the best of my knowledge.

Ar 23 Awst, derbyniodd fy swyddogion bapurau oddi wrth gyfarfod y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’r Amgylchedd. Craffodd swyddogion ar yr agenda i ganfod unrhyw eitemau perthnasol a chasglu nad oedd angen mynd i’r cyfarfod. Ni ddaethpwyd â’r un o’r papurau, gan gynnwys yr adroddiad hwn, i’m sylw ar y pryd, nac wedyn. Cymerais bob cam rhesymol fel Gweinidog i’m sicrhau fy hun nad oeddem wedi cael copi o’r adroddiad hwn. Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol o’i fodolaeth, na’i gynnwys, pan fu dadl ar y Rheoliadau Organebau a Addaswyd yn Enetig (Eu Gollwng yn Fwriadol) (Cymru) 2002 ar 18 Rhagfyr. Er hynny, byddai’r dystiolaeth yn yr adroddiad wedi ategu’r angen am reoleiddio pellach, fel y darpara’r gyfarwyddeb honno, ac nid fel arall. Ni chefais gopi ffurfiol o’r adroddiad penodol hwn gan DEFRA, na hysbysiad o’i fwriad i’w gyhoeddi ar noswyl Nadolig. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion lunio adroddiad ar y rheswm i hyn ddigwydd, ac fe’i cyhoeddaf pan fydd ar gael. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at aelodau’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig heddiw i egluro’r manylion ymhellach. Yn benodol, trosglwyddaf gopïau o’m llythyr at Michael Meacher, yn protestio na chawsom unrhyw hysbysiad ffurfiol gan DEFRA am yr adroddiad hwn, ac felly y mae o hyd. Ni chredais ac ni chredaf fod cyswllt rhwng swyddogion a DEFRA yn dderbyniol. Y gwir yw nad oeddwn yn ymwybodol o fodolaeth yr adroddiad, a gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau’n derbyn fy ymddiheuriad am y gallai’r Cynulliad fod wedi’i gamarwain ynghylch lle’r oedd, ac yn derbyn fy mod wedi ateb cwestiynau’n ddiffuant ar y mater hwn hyd eithaf fy ngwybodaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I am prepared to accept the Minister’s apology and that he did not intentionally mislead the Assembly. However, he did mislead the Assembly and continues to do so if he has read the report. It states categorically that cross-contamination between GM crops and conventional crops is possible. That undermines the Government’s position on separation distances. If that report had been brought before Assembly Members, the debate on 18 December would have been different. The Minister insists that he was not aware of this report, and that there was no reason why he should be. I presume that he agrees that ACRE is an important Committee, which advises Government in Westminster and Cardiff. Did he not read the minutes of the ACRE meeting, which were published in October, and which referred to this report? Did he not feel that he had a responsibility to bring all the relevant information before the Assembly before we debated the issues of separation distances on 18 December? Does he not agree that he has failed in his duty to inform members of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and Assembly Members of this issue? When I challenged him on this issue in January, he told me that he had contacted DEFRA, and that he had confirmation that the report had not been sent to the National Assembly for Wales. Will he now admit that he did not follow up this issue, that he did not check with DEFRA whether it had sent the report and that, if he had done so, he would have been told that the report had been sent? This, Minister—

Yr wyf yn barod i dderbyn ymddiheuriad y Gweinidog ac na wnaeth gamarwain y Cynulliad yn fwriadol. Er hynny, camarweiniodd y Cynulliad a deil i wneud hynny os yw wedi darllen yr adroddiad. Dywed yn bendant fod croeshalogi rhwng cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a chnydau confensiynol yn bosibl. Mae hynny’n tanseilio safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar bellteroedd gwahanu. Pe bai’r adroddiad hwnnw wedi’i ddwyn gerbron Aelodau’r Cynulliad, buasai’r ddadl ar 18 Rhagfyr yn wahanol. Mae’r Gweinidog yn mynnu nad oedd yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad hwn, ac nad oedd rheswm pam y dylai fod. Cymeraf ei fod yn cytuno bod y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’r Amgylchedd yn bwyllgor pwysig, sy’n cynghori Llywodraeth yn San Steffan a Chaerdydd. Oni ddarllenodd gofnodion cyfarfod y pwyllgor ymgynghorol, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Hydref, sy’n cyfeirio at yr adroddiad hwn? Oni theimlodd gyfrifoldeb i ddod â’r holl wybodaeth berthnasol gerbron y Cynulliad cyn inni drafod materion pellteroedd gwahanu ar 18 Rhagfyr? Onid yw’n cytuno ei fod wedi methu yn ei ddyletswydd i hysbysu aelodau’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ac Aelodau o’r Cynulliad am y mater hwn? Pan heriais ef ar y mater hwn ym mis Ionawr, dywedodd wrthyf ei fod wedi cysylltu â DEFRA, a’i fod wedi cael cadarnhad nad anfonwyd yr adroddiad i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. A wnaiff gyfaddef yn awr nad aeth ar ôl y mater hwn, ac na holodd DEFRA i ganfod a oedd wedi anfon yr adroddiad a, phe bai wedi gwneud hynny, y cawsai wybod nad anfonwyd yr adroddiad? Hyn, Weinidog—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Order. This is an urgent question, not a statement.

Trefn. Cwestiwn brys yw hwn, nid datganiad.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I have asked several questions. I will finish with another.

Yr wyf wedi gofyn sawl cwestiwn. Gorffennaf ag un arall.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Order. You must now allow the Minister to answer your questions.

Trefn. Rhaid ichi ganiatáu i’r Gweinidog ateb eich cwestiynau’n awr.

Michael German spoken in English p. 30

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

In answer to your last question, Rhodri, I have not yet received a reply to my letter to Michael Meacher. However, you are correct that I contacted Michael Meacher’s department, and Michael Meacher personally, to ask why we had not received a formal copy of this report. I am waiting for a reply. Your assertion that this report would not have supported the Assembly’s position is incorrect. I am sure that you are well aware of the article 16—now article 23—blockage, placed on the whole of the European Union on cross-contamination and the distances between GM and non-GM crops. To the extent that this report would have had an influence, it would have reinforced our position, which is to take the most restrictive approach possible to GM crops within the framework of domestic and European legislation. I repeat what I told the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee—when you were present—that this report adds strength to our argument, which has been, and is still being, put consistently, and has resulted in the article 23, formally article 16, stop notice on this matter across the whole of the European Union.

Mewn ateb i’ch cwestiwn olaf, Rhodri, nid wyf wedi cael ateb eto i’m llythyr at Michael Meacher. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn gywir wrth ddweud fy mod wedi cysylltu ag adran Michael Meacher, a Michael Meacher yn bersonol, i ofyn pam nad oeddem wedi cael copi ffurfiol o’r adroddiad hwn. Yr wyf yn disgwyl ateb. Mae’ch haeriad na fyddai’r adroddiad hwn wedi ategu safbwynt y Cynulliad yn anghywir. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn gwybod yn iawn am atalfa erthygl 16—erthygl 23 bellach—a orfodwyd ar yr Undeb Ewropeaidd cyfan ynghylch croeshalogi a’r pellteroedd rhwng cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a rhai na addaswyd. I’r graddau y byddai’r adroddiad hwn wedi cael dylanwad, byddai wedi ategu ein safbwynt, sef y dylid cael yr ymagwedd fwyaf rhwystrol posibl at gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig o fewn fframwaith deddfwriaeth ddomestig ac Ewropeaidd. Ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais wrth y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig—pan oeddech yn bresennol—sef bod yr adroddiad hwn yn cryfhau ein dadl, sydd wedi’i chyflwyno’n gyson, ac yn cael ei chyflwyno felly o hyd, ac sydd wedi arwain at y rhybudd atal erthygl 23, erthygl 16 gynt, ar y mater hwn ledled yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Ron Davies spoken in English p. 31

Ron Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

We must accept the Minister’s apology. However, does he believe that he has discharged his responsibilities to the Assembly fully, and that his record of competence in running his department is acceptable? He now asks us to accept that last August a major report of central importance to a crucial issue for the National Assembly was received by his department, and neither he nor his officials noticed that they had received it, nor in the following months did they notice that they did not have it. We are asked to believe that in December, when we debated a related matter, he did not ask whether he had received a briefing, and neither did his officials notify him that they had received a briefing. He has been questioned in the National Assembly on many occasions, and he has asserted on each occasion that he did not receive the report. Are we to believe that he did not check and that his officials did not brief him when he addressed the Assembly? As recently as a fortnight ago, he was subject to intensive questioning at an Agriculture and Rural Development Committee meeting, and he again repeatedly asserted that he had not received this report. Are we to believe that he did not check before giving those assurances to Committee, or are we to believe that his officials, yet again, did not check that they had received that report and did not see fit to brief him? It now turns out that we have had this important report since last August, but the Minister does not accept responsibility for his department’s shortcomings; responsibility is now apparently being shuffled off onto a junior official. Does the Minister believe that this adds credibility to his department, to his stewardship of that department, or to the Welsh Assembly Government, which he serves?

Rhaid inni dderbyn ymddiheuriad y Gweinidog. Fodd bynnag, a yw’n credu ei fod wedi cyflawni ei gyfrifoldebau i’r Cynulliad yn llawn, a bod y record o’i allu wrth redeg ei adran yn dderbyniol? Mae’n gofyn yn awr inni dderbyn bod adroddiad pwysig sydd o bwys canolog i fater sy’n dyngedfennol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi dod i law ei adran fis Awst diwethaf, ac na wnaeth ef na’i swyddogion sylwi eu bod wedi’i gael, ac na sylwasant yn y misoedd dilynol nad oedd wedi dod i law. Gofynnir inni gredu, pan gawsom ddadl ar fater cysylltiedig yn Rhagfyr, na ofynnodd a oedd wedi derbyn cyfarwyddyd, ac na hysbyswyd ef gan ei swyddogion eu bod wedi derbyn cyfarwyddyd. Fe’i holwyd yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol lawer gwaith, a haerodd bob tro nad oedd wedi cael yr adroddiad. A ydym i fod i gredu na wnaeth wirio hyn ac nad oedd wedi cael cyfarwyddyd gan ei swyddogion pan anerchodd y Cynulliad? Mor ddiweddar â phythefnos yn ôl, fe’i holwyd yn fanwl mewn cyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a haerodd dro ar ôl tro nad oedd wedi cael yr adroddiad hwn. A ydym i fod i gredu na wnaeth wirio hynny cyn sicrhau’r Pwyllgor felly, neu a ydym i gredu na wnaeth ei swyddogion, unwaith eto, wirio eu bod wedi cael yr adroddiad hwnnw ac na welsant yn dda i’w gyfarwyddo? Gwelwn bellach fod yr adroddiad pwysig hwn gennym ers mis Awst diwethaf, ond nid yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn cyfrifoldeb dros ddiffygion ei adran; ymddengys bod y cyfrifoldeb yn cael ei wthio ar swyddog is. A yw’r Gweinidog yn credu bod hynny’n rhoi rhagor o hygrededd i’w adran, i’w stiwardiaeth ar yr adran honno, neu i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, y mae’n ei gwasanaethu?

Michael German spoken in English p. 31

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Nothing that I have said at any time has been incorrect. I have told you, as I said in Committee, that I wrote to Michael Meacher because I had not been informed of the existence of this report. You also questioned the official concerned at the time, and the answer to your question then was exactly the same as my reply today. At no time was the existence of this report reported to me as Minister. Therefore, I reject all of what you said.

Nid oedd dim a ddywedais ar unrhyw adeg yn anghywir. Yr wyf wedi dweud wrthych, fel y dywedais yn y Pwyllgor, imi ysgrifennu at Michael Meacher am nad oeddwn wedi fy hysbysu am fodolaeth yr adroddiad hwn. Gwnaethoch holi’r swyddog dan sylw hefyd ar y pryd, ac yr oedd yr ateb i’ch cwestiwn bryd hynny yn union yr un fath â’m hateb i heddiw. Ni roddwyd gwybod i mi fel Gweinidog am fodolaeth yr adroddiad hwn o gwbl. Felly, gwrthodaf bopeth a ddywedasoch.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 32

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

I have many grievances with the Minister, but I will be brief as I single out this latest disillusionment. You claimed in Plenary last week, Minister, that:

Mae gennyf lawer o gwynion ynghylch y Gweinidog, ond byddaf yn fyr wrth sôn yn neilltuol am y dadrithiad diweddaraf hwn. Gwnaethoch honni yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos diwethaf, Weinidog:

‘I knew nothing of the report that was published on the DEFRA website, which was a report for England. I cannot accept that I should have known about it because it was not made available to me nor to anyone else beforehand.’

‘ni wyddwn unrhyw beth am yr adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd ar wefan DEFRA, a oedd yn adroddiad ar gyfer Lloegr. Ni allaf dderbyn y dylwn fod wedi gwybod amdano gan nad oedd ar gael i mi na neb arall ymlaen llaw.’

However, it is stated in the press today that your spokesman admitted that you had the report—which had been sent with a bundle of other documents—prior to 24 December, and that no-one was made aware of its presence. That is a lame, pathetic response. You have the audacity to claim that neither you nor anybody else had seen it prior to 24 December, and argue in your defence that it was submerged among other documents—that is no excuse. Is it not about time that you began to treat us all with respect, and come clean about the appalling manner in which you have dealt with this fiasco? The claims made by DEFRA in the report are not to be taken lightly. We need an open and honest debate on the dangers of GM crops interbreeding with conventional crops and weeds. ‘Open’ and ‘honesty’ seem to be the two words that you are not addressing.

Fodd bynnag, dywedir yn y wasg heddiw fod eich llefarydd wedi cyfaddef bod yr adroddiad gennych—a anfonwyd gyda sypyn o ddogfennau eraill—cyn 24 Rhagfyr, ac na hysbyswyd neb am ei bresenoldeb. Ymateb cloff a thruenus yw hwnnw. Yr ydych yn ddigon haerllug i honni nad oeddech chi na neb arall wedi’i weld cyn 24 Rhagfyr, ac yr ydych yn dadlau i’ch amddiffyn eich hun ei fod wedi’i gladdu dan ddogfennau eraill—nid yw hynny’n esgus o gwbl. Onid yw’n bryd ichi ddechrau trin pob un ohonom gyda pharch, a chyfaddef y modd gwarthus yr ydych wedi delio â’r methiant hwn? Ni ddylid trin yr honiadau a wneir gan DEFRA yn yr adroddiad yn ysgafn. Mae arnom angen dadl agored a gonest ar y peryglon o groesfridio rhwng cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a chnydau confensiynol a chwyn. Ymddengys mai ‘agored’ a ‘gonestrwydd’ yw’r ddau air nad ydych yn ymdrin â hwy.

Michael German spoken in English p. 32

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Funnily enough, I support the point about a public debate, and I have sought a major public debate on this issue; you will see tomorrow what action I have taken on that. I repeat that it is incorrect to say that I had said anything that is different from what I had said earlier in Committee. I had not had the report, I had not seen the report, and I did not know of its existence. As a division, we are observers on 11 regulatory or advisory committees. We have a small department shadowing a large department in DEFRA of 200 officials. It is regrettable that this matter was overlooked. However, there is no question that the civil servants who were responsible for bringing it to my attention did not bring it to my attention. That is a matter of regret. I have asked for assurance that such matters are not overlooked in future. However, there is nothing that I have said in the past that I do not stand by.

Yn ddigon rhyfedd, yr wyf yn cefnogi’r pwynt am ddadl gyhoeddus, ac yr wyf wedi ceisio cael dadl gyhoeddus helaeth ar y mater hwn; gwelwch yfory y camau yr wyf wedi’u cymryd ar hynny. Dywedaf eto mai anghywir yw dweud fy mod wedi dweud dim sy’n wahanol i’r hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach yn y Pwyllgor. Nid oeddwn wedi cael yr adroddiad, nid oeddwn wedi gweld yr adroddiad, ac ni wyddwn am ei fodolaeth. Fel is-adran, yr ydym yn sylwedyddion mewn 11 o bwyllgorau rheoliadol neu ymgynghorol. Mae gennym adran fach sy’n cysgodi adran fawr o 200 o swyddogion yn Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig. Mae’n destun gofid bod y mater hwn wedi’i esgeuluso. Fodd bynnag, nid oes amheuaeth nad oedd y gweision sifil a oedd yn gyfrifol am ei ddwyn i’m sylw wedi peidio â dod ag ef i’m sylw. Mae hynny’n destun gofid. Yr wyf wedi gofyn am sicrwydd na chaiff materion o’r fath eu hesgeuluso yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim a ddywedais yn y gorffennol nad wyf yn dal ato.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 33

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Thank you for your clarification, Minister. It is worth reminding Members that Wales is currently the only part of the UK without GM crops. I am sure that you will have read the report, and are aware of the final sentence of the conclusions, which states:

Diolch i chi am eich eglurhad, Weinidog. Mae’n werth atgoffa Aelodau mai Cymru yw’r unig ran o’r DU sydd heb gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch wedi darllen yr adroddiad, a’ch bod yn ymwybodol o’r frawddeg olaf yn y casgliadau, a ddywed:

‘There may be a need to review isolation requirements in keeping with current legislation on contamination thresholds in crops, in light of this research.’

Efallai y bydd angen adolygu gofynion arwahanu i gyd-fynd â’r ddeddfwriaeth gyfredol ar drothwyon halogi mewn cnydau, yng ngoleuni’r ymchwil hon.

That is the way that we are travelling. However, it seems that there has been a serious breakdown in the communication of information. Will you give serious consideration to the re-establishment of the GM statutory group? Every party—and Ron Davies—was represented on that group, and it afforded an opportunity for everyone to receive good legal advice and share information on all GM-related materials. What they did with that advice and information afterwards was their business. That may help to solve some problems in the future.

I’r cyfeiriad hwnnw yr ydym yn mynd. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys bod methiant difrifol o ran cyfleu gwybodaeth. A wnewch ystyried yn ofalus ailsefydlu’r grŵp statudol ar addasu genetig? Yr oedd pob plaid—a Ron Davies—wedi’i chynrychioli ar y grŵp hwnnw, a rhoddai gyfle i bawb gael cyngor cyfreithiol da ac i rannu gwybodaeth am yr holl ddeunyddiau a oedd yn ymwneud ag addasu genetig. Mater iddynt hwy oedd beth a wnaent â’r cyngor a’r wybodaeth honno wedyn. Gallai hynny fod o gymorth i ddatrys rhai o’r problemau yn y dyfodol.

Michael German spoken in English p. 33

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I have made that offer to the Chair of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, and I am happy to take it forward if Committee members so wish. We must avoid the distributing of the misinformation that this report would not have supported the Assembly’s case. It does reinforce the Assembly’s case, and gives the Assembly the right to say that we have taken this agenda to the forefront. We can use the evidence in it to support our case when the European Union eventually deals with co-existence, which is currently being addressed by three European Commission directors general.

Yr wyf wedi cynnig hynny i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a byddaf yn falch o fwrw ymlaen â hynny os yw aelodau o’r Pwyllgor yn dymuno. Rhaid inni osgoi lledaenu’r wybodaeth anghywir na fyddai’r adroddiad hwn wedi ategu achos y Cynulliad. Mae’n ategu achos y Cynulliad, ac yn rhoi hawl i’r Cynulliad ddweud ein bod wedi dod â’r agenda hon i’r blaen. Gallwn ddefnyddio’r dystiolaeth sydd ynddo o blaid ein hachos pan fydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn delio yn y diwedd â chydfodolaeth, gan fod hynny’n cael ei ystyried ar hyn o bryd gan dri o gyfarwyddwyr cyffredinol y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 34

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 34

Un casgliad a nodir yn yr adroddiad hwn yw bod modd i hadau a addaswyd yn enetig gael eu gwasgaru dros bellteroedd mawr gan beiriannau, ac felly nad yw pellteroedd gwahanu’n ddigon i ddiogelu’r amgylchedd na buddiannau materol ffermwyr organig. Mae hynny’n codi cwestiwn ynglŷn â’r diffiniad o niwed. Nid ystyriwyd y wybodaeth honno yn ystod y ddadl ar 18 Rhagfyr. Adnewyddaf fy nghais felly i ail-gynnal y ddadl honno a phleidleisio eto ar y rheoliadau.

One conclusion that is noted in this report is that GM seeds can be scattered over great distances by machines, and therefore that separation distances are not enough to safeguard the environment or the material interests of organic farmers. That raises the question of the definition of harm. That information was not considered during the debate on 18 December. Therefore, I renew my request for that debate to be restaged and for a second vote on the regulations.

Michael German spoken in English p. 34

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

The regulations were not about the separation distances, but about the issues that we already have in place—articles 23 and 16. The debate on article 23—formerly article 16—is a European debate, in which we must firmly engage. The issue that you rightly raise is one that must be deployed in that debate. We hope to get further evidence when future farm-scale evaluations come out in the summer. We will get more information then to support our case. However, I must stress that the Assembly has taken this issue forward in the strongest possible way and has secured a European ban on the matter at present because of the issue of cross-contamination. The debate on the ‘what’ and the ‘how’ is being taken to the highest level, to the Council of Ministers, as well as being debated in the commission. I suggest that we are taking this matter firmly forward and are taking the lead in Europe on it.

Nid oedd y rheoliadau’n ymwneud â’r pellteroedd gwahanu, ond â’r materion sydd ar waith gennym eisoes—erthyglau 23 a 16. Mae’r ddadl ar erthygl 23—erthygl 16 gynt—yn ddadl Ewropeaidd, y mae’n rhaid inni gymryd rhan bendant ynddi. Mae’r mater yr ydych yn cyfeirio’n briodol ato’n un y bydd yn rhaid ei godi yn y ddadl honno. Gobeithiwn gael tystiolaeth bellach pan fydd gwerthusiadau ar ffermydd a gynhelir yn y dyfodol yn cael eu cyhoeddi yn yr haf. Cawn ragor o wybodaeth bryd hynny i gefnogi ein hachos. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi bwysleisio bod y Cynulliad wedi bwrw ymlaen â’r mater hwn yn y modd mwyaf pendant posibl ac wedi sicrhau gwaharddiad Ewropeaidd ar y mater ar hyn o bryd oherwydd mater croeshalogi. Eir â’r ddadl ynghylch y ‘beth’ a’r ‘sut’ i’r lefel uchaf, i Gyngor y Gweinidogion, a chaiff ei drafod yn y comisiwn hefyd. Awgrymaf ein bod yn bwrw ymlaen yn bendant â’r mater hwn ac yn arwain arno yn Ewrop.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 34

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

The material significance of the DEFRA report to the debate on the regulations on 18 December, on which you have cast some doubt, is a matter of some dispute. Certainly, several of my constituents would dispute that and others in the Chamber have disputed it already. However, accepting that what happened was a case of cock-up and not conspiracy—and I accept that—it still begs the question of accepting ministerial responsibility for that cock-up. I put it to you, Deputy First Minister, that if you were not a member of the Government, and a Labour Minister was in your current position, you would have tabled a censure motion even faster than the Conservative group managed to do today.

Mae cryn ddadlau ynghylch yr amheuaeth yr ydych wedi’i fwrw ar berthnasedd adroddiad DEFRA i’r ddadl ar y rheoliadau ar 18 Rhagfyr. Yn sicr, byddai nifer o’m hetholwyr yn anghytuno â hynny ac mae eraill yn y Siambr wedi anghytuno â hynny eisoes. Fodd bynnag, a derbyn mai llanastr oedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd ac nid cynllwyn—ac yr wyf yn derbyn hynny—mae’r cwestiwn yn codi o hyd o dderbyn cyfrifoldeb gweinidogol dros y llanastr hwnnw. Awgrymaf i chi, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, pe na baech yn aelod o’r Llywodraeth, a bod Gweinidog Llafur yn eich sefyllfa bresennol chi, y byddech wedi cyflwyno cynnig o gerydd yn gynt hyd yn oed nag y llwyddodd y grŵp Ceidwadol i wneud heddiw.

Michael German spoken in English p. 35

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I began by saying that I apologise unreservedly for inadvertently misleading the Assembly about the report’s whereabouts. I believe that to have been an honest answer to you and the Assembly and I believe what I said to be the truth. Nothing that I have said in the past would have changed in advance of this. In other words, I have been exactly what you have required of me, which is to be honest about this issue to the Assembly. I have also made it clear that the formal forwarding of the report from DEFRA to us, in the light of our debate, would have been the appropriate approach. I have written to, and await a reply from, Michael Meacher on that issue.

Dechreuais drwy ddweud fy mod yn ymddiheuro’n llaes am gamarwain y Cynulliad yn anfwriadol ynghylch lle’r oedd yr adroddiad. Credaf fod hwnnw’n ateb gonest i chi ac i’r Cynulliad a chredaf fy mod wedi dweud y gwir. Nid oes dim a ddywedais yn y gorffennol a fyddai wedi newid cyn hyn. Mewn geiriau eraill, yr wyf wedi gwneud yn union fel y gwnaethoch ofyn i mi, sef dweud y gwir wrth y Cynulliad am y mater hwn. Yr wyf wedi rhoi ar ddeall hefyd mai anfon yr adroddiad yn ffurfiol atom gan DEFRA, yng ngoleuni ein hadroddiad, fuasai’r dull gweithredu priodol. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at Michael Meacher ar y mater hwnnw, ac yr wyf yn disgwyl ateb ganddo.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 35

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.4, mewn perthynas â’r sylwadau a wnaed heddiw. Onid yw’n draddodiad yn y Siambr hon, fel mewn siambrau eraill, pan wneir camgymeriad mewn adran, i Weinidog dderbyn cyfrifoldeb personol am hynny, yn hytrach na rhoi’r bai ar was sifil sy’n gweithio iddo? A oes angen ailadrodd hynny?

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.4, with regard to comments made today. Is it not the tradition in this Chamber, as in other chambers, that when a mistake is made in a department, the Minister accepts responsibility for it, rather than blaming a civil servant who works for him? Is it necessary to repeat that point?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 35

Yn sicr, dyna’r confensiwn yr ydym yn gyfarwydd ag ef mewn seneddau eraill, ac mae’n gonfensiwn yr wyf yn ei gymeradwyo. O fewn ein gweithdrefnau ni, ac yn y protocolau a arddelir gan y Cynulliad, nid yw’n briodol i gyfeirio at swyddogion wrth eu henwau. Wrth gwrs, gellir cyfeirio at swyddog gan wneud popeth heblaw enwi’r swyddog, ac ni fyddai hynny’n briodol ychwaith.

Indeed, that is the convention with which we are familiar in other parliaments, and it is a convention of which I approve. Within our own procedures, and in the protocols that the Assembly follows, it is not appropriate to refer to officials by name. Of course, one can make reference to an official in a way that does all but name that official, and that would not be appropriate either.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 35

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

There are two changes to this week’s business. Tomorrow, I will seek the Assembly’s agreement to propose a no named day motion to suspend Standing Orders to bring forward the no named day motion to approve the Care Standards Act 2000 (Commencement No. 10) and Transitional Provisions (Wales) Order 2003. Unfortunately, the motion tabled last week to approve this Commencement Order contained typographical errors.

Mae dau newid i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Yfory, byddaf yn ceisio caniatâd gan y Cynulliad i gynnig cynnig heb ddyddiad trafod i atal Rheolau Sefydlog er mwyn cyflwyno’r cynnig heb ddyddiad trafod i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 10) a Darpariaethau Trosiannol (Cymru) 2003. Yn anffodus, yr oedd gwallau teipograffyddol yn y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yr wythnos diwethaf i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Cychwyn hwn.

Turning to the next three weeks’ business, I have scheduled time on Tuesday 4 February to debate the censure motion tabled today by the Conservative group under Standing Order No. 6.4. To accommodate this motion, the Minister for Economic Development has agreed to postpone his statement on Celsa’s acquisition of the former Allied Steel and Wire Ltd. Also on 4 February, the Voluntary Adoption Agencies and the Adoption Agencies (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2003 will be considered under Standing Orders Nos. 22.25, 23.10 and 23.11. The remaining business for the next three weeks is as shown on the draft business statement, which can be found on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. Following the Business Committee’s meeting this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer determined that, under Standing Order No. 22.5, the following items of legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee for extended consideration: the Local Authorities (Referendums) (Petitions and Directions) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (Wales) Regulations 2003.

Gan droi at fusnes y tair wythnos nesaf, yr wyf wedi amserlennu amser ar ddydd Mawrth 4 Chwefror i drafod y cynnig o gerydd a gyflwynwyd heddiw gan y grŵp Ceidwadol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.4. Er mwyn gwneud lle i’r cynnig hwn, mae’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wedi cytuno i ohirio ei ddatganiad ar gaffael Allied Steel and Wire Cyf gynt gan Celsa. Hefyd ar 4 Chwefror, ystyrir Rheoliadau Asiantaethau Mabwysiadu Gwirfoddol a’r Asiantaethau Mabwysiadu (Diwygiadau Amrywiol) 2003 o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 22.25, 23.10 a 23.11. Mae’r gweddill o’r busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf fel y’i dangosir yn y datganiad busnes drafft, y gellir ei weld ar we’r Siambr o dan ddogfennau ategol. Ar ôl y cyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitemau deddfwriaeth a ganlyn i Bwyllgor Pwnc i’w hystyried yn helaethach: Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Refferenda) (Deisebau a Chyfarwyddiadau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003, a Rheoliadau Traffig Ffyrdd (Allyriadau Cerbydau) (Cosbau Penodedig) (Cymru) 2003.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 36

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 36

A oes gwrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, gwahoddaf sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes.

Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Therefore, I invite comments on the business statement.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 36

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 36

Gofynnaf ddau gwestiwn i’r Trefnydd am y datganiad busnes.

I will ask two questions to the Business Minister about the business statement.

Yn gyntaf, o ystyried y drafodaeth a gawsom yn dilyn y cwestiwn brys ar y sefyllfa o ran cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig a’n trafodaeth ar 18 Rhagfyr, ac yn wyneb cyfaddefiad y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor y prynhawn yma, a dderbyniwch erbyn hyn fod angen inni ailgynnal y ddadl honno yn fuan? Rhaid inni drafod y mater yng ngoleuni’r adroddiad hollbwysig a gyrhaeddodd Lywodraeth Cymru ar 23 Awst 2002, ond sydd heb i gyrraedd Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad eto.

First, given the debate following the urgent question on the situation regarding GM crops and our debate on 18 December, and in the face of the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad’s admission this afternoon, do you now accept that we need to hold that debate again soon? We must discuss the matter in light of the all-important report that reached the Government of Wales on 23 August 2002, but which has yet to reach other Assembly Members.

Yr ail fater yw’r sefyllfa o ran taliadau hwyr. Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog nad oedd yn ymwybodol o unrhyw daliad a wnaed y tu allan i’r ffenestr dalu, ond fe’i cyfeiriaf at daliadau cymorth tir âr. Bu i’r ffenestr dalu gau ar 23 Ionawr, fel y bydd y Trefnydd yn cofio o’i swydd flaenorol yn Weinidog dros faterion gwledig. Onid yw’n derbyn bod gan bob Aelod gyfrifoldeb dros y taliadau hyn, gan fod gennym oll etholwyr yr effeithir arnynt gan y mater hwn? Mae angen trafodaeth lawn yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ac yn y Siambr ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd a’r gwersi y gallwn eu dysgu.

The second issue is the situation regarding late payments. The First Minister said that he was unaware of any payments made outside the payment window, but I refer him to the arable aid payments. That payment window closed on 23 January, as the Minister will recall as a former Minister for rural affairs. Does he not accept that all Members have a responsibility for these payments, as we all have constituents who are affected by this issue? We need a full debate both in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and in the Chamber on what has happened and the lessons that can be learnt.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 37

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I make no apology for raising this point again; I ask for an urgent debate on the problems facing rural Wales regarding the ongoing payment situation. It was interesting to hear the First Minister say that he is now prepared to enter into correspondence with me, for me to explain the payment window period to him. I can understand why the First Minister launched an attack on me in the Chamber before Christmas, concerning the sheep annual premium scheme payment. I can understand that he was told that day that payments were being sent out to Welsh farmers at a rate of 4,000 a day and, if there are only 12,500 SAPS recipients in Wales, all those payments should have been dispatched within three or four days. Since then, however, the issue has escalated.

Nid ymddiheuraf am godi’r pwynt hwn eto; gofynnaf am ddadl frys ar y problemau sy’n wynebu’r Gymru wledig o ran y sefyllfa barhaus ynghylch taliadau. Diddorol oedd clywed y Prif Weinidog yn dweud ei fod bellach yn barod i ohebu â mi, fel y gallaf egluro cyfnod y ffenestr dalu iddo. Gallaf ddeall pam yr ymosododd y Prif Weinidog arnaf yn y Siambr cyn y Nadolig, ynghylch taliadau’r cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid. Gallaf ddeall ei fod wedi’i hysbysu’r diwrnod hwnnw fod 4,000 o daliadau’r dydd yn cael eu hanfon at ffermwyr Cymru a, gan nad oes ond 12,500 sy’n derbyn taliadau’r cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid yng Nghymru, y dylai’r holl daliadau hynny fod wedi’u hanfon o fewn tri neu bedwar diwrnod. Fodd bynnag, ers hynny mae’r mater wedi gwaethygu.

Today’s news is that brokers dealing in suckler cow quotas are holding money. A broker in my region—although this could be happening across Wales—has £0.25 million in his client account for suckler cow payments, which he cannot dispense to farmers because he is waiting for the Assembly to process the claims. The rural economy is being deprived of that money; it is in dire need of it. Therefore, following these revelations, I ask the Business Minister to schedule a debate, so that we can understand what is happening in rural Wales.

Y newyddion heddiw yw bod broceriaid sy’n delio mewn cwotâu buchod sugno yn dal arian. Mae brocer yn fy rhanbarth i—er y gallai hyn fod yn digwydd ledled Cymru—sydd â £0.25 miliwn yn ei gyfrif cleientiaid ar gyfer taliadau buchod sugno, nad yw’n gallu ei ddosbarthu i ffermwyr am ei fod yn disgwyl i’r Cynulliad brosesu’r hawliadau. Amddifadir yr economi wledig o’r arian hwnnw: mae arni ei angen yn ddybryd. Felly, yn sgîl y datgeliadau hyn, gofynnaf i’r Trefydd amserlennu dadl, fel y gallwn ddeall beth sy’n digwydd yn y Gymru wledig.

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 38

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 38

Ar bwynt cyntaf Rhodri Glyn, esboniodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor y sefyllfa inni heddiw, felly ni theimlaf fod angen inni ailgynnal y ddadl honno. Os bydd Aelodau yn dymuno trafod hyn yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, dylid amserlennu eitem ar agenda’r Pwyllgor.

in Welsh On Rhodri Glyn’s first point, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad explained the situation to us today, so I do not feel that we need to reschedule that debate. Should Members wish to discuss this in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, they should schedule an item on that Committee’s agenda.

Peter Rogers and Rhodri Glyn both raised the issue of payments but, again, this has been debated at length in the Chamber. The entire ‘Farming for the Future’ debate revolved around payments, when I had hoped that farming had moved away from excessive reliance on subsidies; I see now that that is not the case. There can be no future for farming if people merely seek subsidies. ‘Farming for the Future’ said that, and it has been clear for some time. There is therefore no intention for the Assembly to revisit this matter as no payments are late or outside the payment window.

yn Saesneg Cododd Peter Rogers a Rhodri Glyn fater y taliadau ond, unwaith eto, trafodwyd hyn yn hirfaith yn y Siambr. Yr oedd y ddadl gyfan ar ‘Ffermio i’r Dyfodol’ yn troi o gylch taliadau, a minnau wedi gobeithio bod ffermio wedi symud oddi wrth orddibyniaeth ar gymorthdaliadau; gwelaf yn awr nad felly y mae. Ni ellir cael dyfodol i ffermio os mai’r cwbl a wneir yw chwilio am gymorthdaliadau. Dywedwyd hynny yn ‘Ffermio i’r Dyfodol’, ac mae’n amlwg ers cryn amser. Gan hynny, nid oes bwriad i’r Cynulliad ailystyried y mater hwn gan nad oes unrhyw daliadau sy’n hwyr neu y tu allan i’r ffenestr dalu.

A computer system has been blamed for what is described as late payment of subsidies. I will tell a little story, Llywydd, which may illuminate the Assembly. In the mid-1990s, John Redwood took a decision to move the common agricultural policy management division from Aberystwyth to Cardiff. It was a disaster: it took three years for the system to be worked out; farmers were paid late on several occasions; and 90 per cent of its staff did not move to Cardiff, thus jobs were lost in a rural area. Therefore, it ill-befits Tories to preach about farming subsidies.

yn Saesneg Rhoddwyd y bai ar system gyfrifiadurol am yr hyn a elwir yn dalu cymorthdaliadau yn hwyr. Dywedaf stori fach, Lywydd, a allai oleuo’r Cynulliad. Ganol y 1990au, penderfynodd John Redwood symud is-adran reoli’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin o Aberystwyth i Gaerdydd. Bu’n drychineb: cymerodd dair blynedd i roi trefn ar y system; talwyd ffermwyr yn hwyr ar sawl achlysur; ac ni symudodd 90 y cant o’i staff i Gaerdydd, felly collwyd swyddi mewn ardal wledig. Gan hynny, nid yw’n briodol i Dorïaid bregethu am gymorthdaliadau ffermio.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 38

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Point of order. I raise this with regard to inaccurate information on payment windows given by the Business Minister in the business statement. The First Minister has agreed to my writing to him on this point. Many of these payments do not have a window within which they can be made. That is a serious point that should be recognised by the Assembly.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn mewn cysylltiad â gwybodaeth anghywir ar ffenestri talu a roddwyd gan y Trefnydd yn y datganiad busnes. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi cytuno y caf ysgrifennu ato ar y pwynt hwn. Nid oes ffenestr ar gyfer gwneud llawer o’r taliadau hyn. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt difrifol a ddylai gael ei gydnabod gan y Cynulliad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I appreciate your point. The Minister will have heard it and I look forward to reading a copy of your correspondence with the First Minister on these matters in the Members’ Library soon. I am grateful to you, as a Member representing an agricultural constituency, for the way in which you continue to raise these matters. It is appropriate that you should do so. Indeed, that applies to all Members.

Gwerthfawrogaf y pwynt a wnaethoch. Bydd y Gweinidog wedi’i glywed ac edrychaf ymlaen at ddarllen copi o’ch gohebiaeth â’r Prif Weinidog ar y materion hyn yn Llyfrgell yr Aelodau cyn hir. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi, fel Aelod sy’n cynrychioli etholaeth amaethyddol, am y modd yr ydych yn dal i godi’r materion hyn. Mae’n briodol ichi wneud hynny. Yn wir, mae hynny’n berthnasol i’r holl Aelodau.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Strategaethau Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Trefniadau Gweithrediaeth Awdurdodau Lleol (Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Trefniadau Amgen) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003

Approval of the Health, Social Care and Well-being Strategies (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Authorities Executive Arrangements (Functions and Responsibilities) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the Local Authorities (Alternative Arrangements) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 39

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 39

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 40

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 41

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

The health, social care and wellbeing strategies represent a significant change in the way local services are planned and prioritised. For the first time there will be a joint duty on the NHS and local government to work collaboratively to produce an integrated strategy.

Mae’r strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles yn arwydd o newid pwysig yn y dull o gynllunio a blaenoriaethu gwasanaethau lleol. Am y tro cyntaf bydd y GIG a llywodraeth leol o dan ddyletswydd ar y cyd i gydweithio i gynhyrchu strategaeth integredig.

The strategies underpin the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to closer partnership working, with an emphasis on collaborative working between the NHS, local government and the wider range of local partners involved in the health and wellbeing agenda. Local authorities and local health boards will be required to prepare procedures for co-operation that will ensure the involvement of a range of local bodies, including NHS trusts, Health Commission Wales, community health councils, county voluntary councils and voluntary, business or other organisations with an interest in health and wellbeing. The inclusive nature of the policy also means that patients, users, carers and their representative groups will be part of the process.

Mae’r strategaethau’n ategu ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i weithio’n agosach mewn partneriaeth, gan roi pwyslais ar gydweithio rhwng y GIG, llywodraeth leol a’r amrediad ehangach o bartneriaid lleol sy’n ymwneud â’r agenda iechyd a lles. Bydd yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd lleol baratoi gweithdrefnau ar gyfer cydweithredu a fydd yn sicrhau bod amryw o gyrff lleol yn cymryd rhan, gan gynnwys ymddiriedolaethau GIG, Comisiwn Iechyd Cymru, cynghorau iechyd cymunedol, cynghorau gwirfoddol sirol a chyrff gwirfoddol a busnes neu gyrff eraill sydd â buddiant mewn iechyd a lles. Mae natur gynhwysol y polisi hefyd yn golygu y bydd cleifion, defnyddwyr, gofalwyr a’r grwpiau sy’n eu cynrychioli yn rhan o’r broses.

The regulations seek to develop links with a range of other plans and frameworks. A key element is the link with the overarching community strategy in which the local authority takes the lead. I also expect that, in most cases, the health and wellbeing strategy will build upon existing local partnerships, such as health alliances and children and young people’s framework partnerships. The strategy will ensure that health improvement and action to reduce health inequalities will be given equal priority to the provision of effective and efficient health and social care services. Consultation on the accompanying draft guidance has indicated that that is welcome.

Mae’r rheoliadau’n ceisio datblygu cysylltiadau ag amryw o gynlluniau a fframweithiau eraill. Un elfen allweddol yw’r cysylltiad â’r strategaeth gymunedol gyffredinol lle y bydd yr awdurdod lleol yn arwain. Yr wyf hefyd yn disgwyl, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, y bydd y strategaeth iechyd a lles yn adeiladu ar sail y partneriaethau lleol presennol, megis cynghreiriau iechyd a phartneriaethau fframwaith plant a phobl ifanc. Bydd y strategaeth yn sicrhau y caiff gwella iechyd a chamau i leihau anghydraddoldebau iechyd yr un flaenoriaeth â darparu gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol effeithiol ac effeithlon. Mae ymgynghori ar y canllawiau drafft sy’n cyd-fynd â hyn wedi dangos bod croeso i hynny.

The health, social care and wellbeing strategies will require adoption by local health boards and the full council of local authorities. To enable local authorities to do this, the Local Authorities Executive Arrangements (Functions and Responsibilities) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and the Local Authorities (Alternative Arrangements) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 are also proposed for approval today.

Bydd yn ofynnol i’r strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles gael eu mabwysiadu gan y byrddau iechyd lleol a chyngor llawn awdurdodau lleol. Er mwyn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i wneud hynny, mae Rheoliadau Trefniadau Gweithrediaeth Awdurdodau Lleol (Swyddogaethau a Chyfrifoldebau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Trefniadau Amgen) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003 wedi’u cynnig hefyd i’w cymeradwyo heddiw.

Clearly there are key benefits to the health, social care and wellbeing strategy provisions and the consequential amending regulations that are before us today.

Mae’n amlwg bod buddion allweddol yn y darpariaethau ar gyfer strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles a’r rheoliadau diwygio sy’n ganlyniad iddynt sydd ger ein bron heddiw.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 42

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales recognises the need to address health and wellbeing issues throughout Wales, particularly serious health inequalities. We must focus in particular on our more deprived areas where the link between deprivation and poor health is well established and documented.

Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn cydnabod yr angen i ymdrin â materion iechyd a lles ledled Cymru, yn enwedig anghydraddoldebau iechyd difrifol. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio’n benodol ar ein hardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig lle y mae cryn dystiolaeth fod cysylltiad rhwng amddifadedd ac iechyd gwael.

Any effective strategy to tackle such a wide-ranging issue must be delivered through partnership: health, the economy, and education each have a role to play. A successful strategy will involve not only the health authorities and local authorities but also the voluntary and business sectors, which also have a crucial part to play.

Rhaid i unrhyw strategaeth effeithiol i fynd i’r afael â mater cynhwysfawr o’r fath gael ei chyflawni drwy bartneriaeth: mae rôl i’w chwarae gan iechyd, yr economi, ac addysg. Bydd strategaeth lwyddiannus yn cynnwys nid yn unig yr awdurdodau iechyd a’r awdurdodau lleol ond y sectorau gwirfoddol a busnes hefyd, sydd â rôl hollbwysig i’w chwarae hefyd.

It is particularly important to ensure that those who are traditionally excluded from the decision-making process are represented. What plans does the Minister have to achieve equitable representation for disabled people during the strategy formulation process and on each local strategy board?

Mae’n arbennig o bwysig sicrhau y caiff y rhai sydd wedi arfer cael eu hallgáu o’r broses benderfynu eu cynrychioli. Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog i sicrhau cynrychiolaeth deg i bobl anabl yn ystod y broses o ffurfio’r strategaeth ac ar bob bwrdd strategaeth lleol?

There is much that can easily be done, including providing leisure facilities such as swimming pools and sports halls and encouraging the take-up of sport and exercise at all ages. These facilities must be both physically and financially accessible. There is no point in having a first-rate sports centre that is a long bus journey away, or which has extortionate entry fees. There are some delightful walks in many of our most deprived communities, and I congratulate Forestry Enterprise on its work to encourage walking in and around the forests that surround our valleys.

Mae llawer y gellir ei wneud yn rhwydd, gan gynnwys darparu cyfleusterau hamdden fel pyllau nofio a neuaddau chwaraeon ac annog pawb o bob oed i gymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon ac ymarfer corff. Rhaid i’r cyfleusterau hyn fod yn hygyrch ac yn fforddiadwy. Nid oes diben cael canolfan chwaraeon o’r radd flaenaf y mae’n rhaid teithio’n hir ar fws i’w chyrraedd, neu un sy’n codi crocbris am fynediad. Ceir rhai llwybrau cerdded hyfryd yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, a llongyfarchaf Menter Coedwigaeth ar ei gwaith o hybu cerdded yn y coedwigoedd sydd o gwmpas ein cymoedd ac yn eu cyffiniau.

Diet has a crucial role to play in health and wellbeing, because we are what we eat. Healthy eating should start at the youngest possible age, so that lifelong good practice can be learned. Nutritious food of a high standard should be available locally. In my constituency, courses on how to cook healthy meals are popular. Given not only the health benefits, but the economic benefits to local producers, what measures does the Assembly Government plan to introduce to promote access to locally-sourced, nutritious food?

Mae rôl hollbwysig i ddeiet mewn iechyd a lles, oherwydd yr ydym yr hyn a fwytawn. Dylai bwyta’n iach ddechrau yn yr oed cynharaf posibl, fel y gellir dysgu arferion da gydol oes. Dylai bwyd maethlon o safon uchel fod ar gael yn lleol. Yn fy etholaeth i, mae cyrsiau ar sut i goginio prydau iach yn boblogaidd. O gofio’r manteision iechyd a’r manteision economaidd i gynhyrchwyr lleol, pa fesurau y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn bwriadu eu cyflwyno i hyrwyddo’r gallu i gael gafael ar fwyd maethlon o ffynonellau lleol?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 43

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I welcome the health, social care and wellbeing strategies on several fronts. They give voluntary organisations, carers and patients the opportunity to have a greater say in developing strategies that will affect their areas. Although there has been good practice, with voluntary organisations and carers engaged in developing strategies of this kind, there is evidence that is not uniformly the case across Wales. These measures should greatly strengthen those organisations and ensure that their voices are heard.

Croesawaf y strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles am sawl rheswm. Maent yn rhoi cyfle i gyrff gwirfoddol, gofalwyr a chleifion gael mwy o lais mewn datblygu strategaethau a fydd yn effeithio ar eu hardaloedd. Er bod arfer da wedi bod, gyda chyrff gwirfoddol a gofalwyr yn cymryd rhan mewn datblygu strategaethau o’r math hwn, mae tystiolaeth nad yw hynny’n digwydd yn yr un modd ledled Cymru. Dylai’r mesurau hyn fod yn fodd i gryfhau’r cyrff hynny’n fawr a sicrhau gwrandawiad iddynt.

I also welcome the regulations because they bring healthcare and the functions of local government together. For too long, health promotion and prevention has been seen as the preserve of the health service alone, and that is simply not the case. There is much that is the responsibility of local government that can have a huge effect on people’s health and wellbeing. The state of someone’s housing; their environment; the economic strategies that are being pursued in their area and their leisure opportunities, which have already been mentioned by Geraint Davies, are mainly the preserve of local authorities. Bringing this emphasis to health and wellbeing is long overdue.

Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu’r rheoliadau am eu bod yn dod â gofal iechyd a swyddogaethau llywodraeth leol at ei gilydd. Am gyfnod rhy hir o lawer, ystyriwyd bod hybu iechyd ac atal afiechyd yn faes i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn unig, ac nid yw hynny’n wir o gwbl. Mae llawer sy’n gyfrifoldeb i lywodraeth leol a all gael effaith aruthrol ar iechyd a lles pobl. Mae cyflwr tai pobl; eu hamgylchedd; y strategaethau economaidd a ddilynir yn eu hardal a’u cyfleoedd hamdden, a grybwyllwyd eisoes gan Geraint Davies, yn feysydd i awdurdodau lleol gan mwyaf. Mae’n hen bryd rhoi’r pwyslais hwn ar iechyd a lles.

A report on the investigation into the death of Victoria Climbie will be published in London today. That is a stark reminder of the need to more closely align healthcare and social care. There is specific mention in these regulations of connecting with child and youth partnerships and ensuring that children’s services are to the fore in the strategies developed. If ever there were a need for a disciplined and combined approach, it is in children’s services. We have seen too many instances over too many years of children who have fallen through the net and of hard-working professionals who have had little time or support to share their findings with other professionals. These regulations place a welcome emphasis on bringing together health services and those responsible for social care.

Cyhoeddir adroddiad ar yr ymchwiliad i farwolaeth Victoria Climbie yn Llundain heddiw. Mae hynny’n fodd cignoeth o’n hatgoffa am yr angen am alinio gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn agosach. Sonnir yn benodol yn y rheoliadau hyn am gysylltu â phartneriaethau plant a phobl ifanc a sicrhau lle amlwg i wasanaethau plant yn y strategaethau a ddatblygir. Os bu angen erioed am ddull gweithredu disgybledig a chyfunol, mewn gwasanaethau plant y mae hwnnw. Gwelsom ormod o achosion dros ormod o flynyddoedd o blant a ddisgynodd drwy’r rhwyd a gweithwyr proffesiynol gweithgar na chawsant fawr o amser neu gymorth i rannu eu canfyddiadau â gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn rhoi pwyslais derbyniol ar ddod â gwasanaethau iechyd a’r rhai sy’n gyfrifol am ofal cymdeithasol at ei gilydd.

David Melding spoken in English p. 44

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I had intended to give the health, social care and wellbeing strategies and the regulations one and a half cheers, but since we have already had some bitter partisan exchanges this afternoon, I will be generous and urge some consensus politics even at this late juncture in this Assembly, and give two cheers. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Shame.’]

Yr oeddwn wedi bwriadu rhoi un floedd a hanner dros y strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles, ond gan ein bod eisoes wedi cael rhai geiriau chwerw rhwng y pleidiau y prynhawn yma, byddaf yn hael ac yn pwyso am rywfaint o wleidyddiaeth gonsensws hyd yn oed ar yr adeg ddiweddar hon yn y Cynulliad hwn, ac yn rhoi dwy floedd. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Cywilydd.’]

I will take the first cheer then, which is to urge more flexible and co-operative joint working. That is important in these public services. That has not been achieved adequately in the past—certainly co-ordinated services have not been uniformly and comprehensively available. Citizens across Wales have a right to that and I welcome the attempt to ensure it; we will see how it will go in practice. It is appropriate to recognise, explicitly and up-front, the socio-economic determinants of ill health. All political parties now accept that that has not been given enough prominence over the last 25 years or so. We are now making some progress and, for health gains for many communities, this approach is essential and perhaps mirrors the great advances made in the mid-nineteenth century on sanitation, which improved the health of large populations.

Rhoddaf y floedd gyntaf felly, sydd i annog cydweithio mwy hyblyg a chydweithredol. Mae hynny’n bwysig yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hyn. Ni chyflawnwyd hynny’n ddigonol yn y gorffennol—yn sicr, ni fu gwasanaethau cydlynol ar gael yn unffurf ac yn gyffredinol. Mae gan ddinasyddion ledled Cymru hawl i hynny a chroesawaf yr ymgais i’w sicrhau; gwelwn sut y llwydda’n ymarferol. Mae’n briodol cydnabod, yn agored ac yn onest, y penderfynyddion cymdeithasol-economaidd sydd i iechyd gwael. Mae’r holl bleidiau gwleidyddol yn derbyn bellach na roddwyd digon o amlygrwydd i hynny dros y 25 mlynedd diwethaf fwy neu lai. Yr ydym yn gwneud rhywfaint o gynnydd ar hyn bellach ac, er mwyn cael cynnydd mewn iechyd ar gyfer llawer o gymunedau, mae’r dull gweithredu hwn yn hollbwysig ac efallai ei fod yn ddrych i’r cynnydd mawr a gafwyd ganol y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg mewn glanweithdra, a fu’n fodd i wella iechyd poblogaethau mawr.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 44

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

As they say, there is more joy in heaven for one sinner who has repented. Would you like to use this opportunity to condemn the previous Conservative Government, which failed to adequately publish the Black report, which dealt graphically with the points that you raised?

Fel y dywedir, bydd mwy o lawenydd yn y nef am un pechadur sy’n edifarhau. A hoffech ddefnyddio’r cyfle hwn i gollfarnu’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol, a fethodd â chyhoeddi adroddiad Black, a oedd yn ymdrin yn afaelgar â’r pwyntiau y gwnaethoch eu codi, fel y dylasai?

David Melding spoken in English p. 45

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Oh dear, we are back on the election trail. I had tried to avoid such references. I refer you to a debate we had 18 months ago on the socio-economic determinants of ill health, in which the Black report was mentioned. It was published in 1980; I am living in 2003 and I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Welsh Conservative Party and assure the population of Wales, and the electorate, that we take these issues and the wider considerations seriously.

O’r annwyl, dyma ni ar hynt yr ymgyrch etholiadol eto. Yr oeddwn wedi ceisio osgoi cyfeiriadau o’r fath. Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at ddadl a gawsom 18 mis yn ôl ar benderfynyddion cymdeithasol-economaidd iechyd gwael, pan grybwyllwyd adroddiad Black. Fe’i cyhoeddwyd yn 1980; yr wyf fi’n byw yn 2003 ac yn falch o siarad ar ran Plaid Geidwadol Cymru a sicrhau pobl Cymru, a’r etholwyr, ein bod yn cymryd y materion hyn a’r ystyriaethau ehangach o ddifrif.

I refrained from giving three cheers for these strategies and the accompanying regulations because we must see how they work in practice. I am not convinced that the structures will be robust enough to deliver these ambitious objectives. In essence, the new fora, or whatever they will be locally, will replace the old joint consultative committees, which worked consistently across Wales, although there were some good committees and some poor ones. However, we were unable to build on good practice and the Minister decided to abolish them and remove the duty on local authorities and health bodies to consult with JCCs. I understand that new fora will be on an informal basis. A legal duty will not be placed on the health bodies and the local authorities in that regard. In fact, if you read the regulations, the local authorities and the local health boards will be urged to undergo extensive consultation, but on a rather piecemeal and bilateral basis. There will not be a union of the various stakeholders to endorse the emerging strategies in a way that is separate to the power given to local authorities and local health boards. This lack of independence in the process will be a problem because, ultimately, the local authorities and local health boards will judge whether they have carried out effective consultation. That will potentially lead to the voluntary and the independent sectors being frozen out and having difficulty in obtaining the information they need to monitor progress and hold these public agencies to account. It is a pity that we have weakened the legislation by removing a crucial duty. As far as the performance of these new regulations is concerned, I will be looking to see how issues such as the carers strategy are advanced and whether those initiatives are taken forward and made into a practical reality. If carers and users—for example, those suffering from mental health problems—are not integrated into the new structures, and services are not responsive to their needs, we will have taken a step backwards and lost an opportunity.

Ymateliais rhag rhoi tair bloedd dros y strategaethau hyn a’r rheoliadau sy’n cyd-fynd â hwy am fod rhaid inni weld sut y maent yn gweithio’n ymarferol. Nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi y bydd y strwythurau’n ddigon cadarn i gyflawni’r amcanion uchelgeisiol hyn. Yn y bôn, bydd y fforymau newydd, neu beth bynnag a fyddant yn lleol, yn cymryd lle’r hen gydbwyllgorau ymgynghorol, a weithiai’n gyson ledled Cymru, er bod rhai pwyllgorau da a rhai gwael. Fodd bynnag, nid oeddem yn gallu adeiladu ar sail arferion da a phenderfynodd y Gweinidog eu diddymu a dileu’r ddyletswydd sydd ar awdurdodau lleol a chyrff iechyd i ymgynghori â chydbwyllgorau ymgynghorol. Deallaf y bydd y fforymau newydd yn rhai anffurfiol. Ni roddir y cyrff iechyd a’r awdurdodau lleol o dan ddyletswydd gyfreithiol yn hynny o beth. Mewn gwirionedd, os darllenwch y rheoliadau, anogir yr awdurdodau lleol a’r byrddau iechyd lleol i ymgymryd ag ymgynghori helaeth, ond mewn modd sydd braidd yn dameidiog a dwyochrog. Ni fydd undeb o’r gwahanol randdeiliaid i gymeradwyo’r strategaethau sy’n datblygu mewn modd sydd ar wahân i’r pŵer a roddir i awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd lleol. Bydd y diffyg annibyniaeth hwn yn y broses yn broblem oherwydd, yn y pen draw, yr awdurdodau lleol a’r byrddau iechyd lleol fydd yn barnu a ydynt wedi ymgynghori’n effeithiol. Gallai hynny beri i’r sectorau gwirfoddol ac annibynnol gael eu hanwybyddu a’i chael yn anodd cael y wybodaeth y mae arnynt ei hangen i fonitro cynnydd a galw’r asiantaethau cyhoeddus hyn i gyfrif. Mae’n drueni ein bod wedi gwanhau’r ddeddfwriaeth drwy ddileu dyletswydd hollbwysig. O ran cyflawni’r rheoliadau newydd hyn, byddaf yn gwylio sut y caiff materion fel y strategaeth i ofalwyr eu hyrwyddo ac a fwrir ymlaen â’r mentrau hynny a’u gwireddu. Os na fydd gofalwyr a defnyddwyr—er enghraifft, rhai sy’n profi problemau iechyd meddwl—yn cael eu hintegreiddio â’r strwythurau newydd hyn, ac os na fydd gwasanaethau’n ymatebol i’w hanghenion, byddwn wedi cymryd cam yn ôl ac wedi colli cyfle.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 46

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

That was a strong endorsement of our approach. Geraint, of course tackling health inequalities is at the forefront of our agenda and is a key objective of the new health, social care and wellbeing strategies. We acknowledge the importance of inclusiveness: not only will there be consultation in terms of partnership, but people and organisations will also be involved in planning and delivering the strategy, which touches on points made by Kirsty and David. Disabled people will be a part of the partnership; not only individuals but the organisations that represent disabled people will be involved. The new strategy allows for the involvement of a range of groups representing the powerful interests of local people and communities.

Yr oedd cefnogaeth gryf yn hynny i’n dull gweithredu. Wrth gwrs, Geraint, mae ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd ar ben ein hagenda ac yn amcan allweddol yn y strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles newydd. Yr ydym yn cydnabod ei bod yn bwysig bod yn gynhwysol: yn ogystal ag ymgynghori yng nghyd-destun partneriaeth, bydd pobl a chyrff hefyd yn cymryd rhan yn y gwaith o gynllunio a chyflawni’r strategaeth, ac mae hynny’n cyffwrdd â’r pwyntiau a wnaeth Kirsty a David. Bydd pobl anabl yn rhan o’r bartneriaeth; bydd unigolion a hefyd y cyrff sy’n cynrychioli pobl anabl yn cymryd rhan. Mae’r strategaeth newydd yn darparu ar gyfer cynnwys amryw o grwpiau sy’n cynrychioli buddiannau pwysig pobl a chymunedau lleol.

We must emphasise the importance of these regulations in bringing about closer integration in the planning and delivery of local health and wellbeing services and the benefits of placing health promotion and improvement on an equal footing. The wider local government interface that comes into play with housing, education and environmental health, enables us to tackle some of the socio-economic determinants that we know to be major causes of ill health in Wales. To tackle that requires a joined-up approach from health services and local government. We must also ensure that the voluntary sector, carers and users are fully engaged in that partnership. To deliver on that, the regulations and the supporting guidance have been developed in collaboration, through consultation and working groups that involved all key partners and stakeholders. It has been supported across the NHS and by local government, the voluntary sector and other partners. Of course, David, there is a duty to co-operate and it must be demonstrated to us that partnership is underpinned by procedures for co-operation and that the voluntary and independent sectors are involved.

Rhaid inni bwysleisio mor bwysig yw’r rheoliadau hyn o ran peri integreiddio agosach yn y gwaith o gynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau iechyd a lles lleol a sicrhau’r manteision a geir o roi hybu iechyd a gwella iechyd ar yr un gwastad. Mae’r rhyngwyneb mwy cyffredinol â llywodraeth leol a ddaw ar waith gyda thai, addysg ac iechyd amgylcheddol, yn ein galluogi i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r penderfynyddion cymdeithasol-economaidd y gwyddom eu bod ymysg prif achosion iechyd gwael yng Nghymru. Er mwyn mynd i’r afael â hynny, rhaid wrth ddull gweithredu cydgysylltiedig gan wasanaethau iechyd a llywodraeth leol. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd fod y sector gwirfoddol, gofalwyr a defnyddwyr yn cymryd rhan lawn yn y bartneriaeth honno. Er mwyn cyflawni hynny, mae’r rheoliadau a’r canllawiau sy’n eu hategu wedi’u datblygu drwy gydweithio, drwy ymgynghori a thrwy weithgorau a oedd yn cynnwys yr holl bartneriaid a rhanddeiliaid allweddol. Cefnogwyd hynny gan y GIG drwyddo draw a chan lywodraeth leol, y sector gwirfoddol a phartneriaid eraill. Wrth gwrs, David, mae dyletswydd i gydweithredu a rhaid inni gael gweld bod partneriaeth yn cael ei hategu gan weithdrefnau ar gyfer cydweithredu a bod y sectorau gwirfoddol ac annibynnol yn cymryd rhan.

Following our discussions in the Committee, my officials have discussed with Carers Wales the implications of carer involvement and how we can ensure that the carers strategy and plans are incorporated into the health, social care and wellbeing strategies. Carers Wales has influenced the guidance that will be published next month, or early in March. We must also ensure that there is performance management in terms of the range of factors involved in evaluating service delivery. That will be crucial to monitoring, not only by Assembly Members, but by organisations that have a local influence. I think that it was an amendment proposed by you, David, that brought in the county voluntary councils at a local level. They are closely engaged in local partnerships and will have a great impact. Kirsty, you are right to mention the importance of the Laming report and the lessons that we may need to learn from it. However, because we have children and young people’s frameworks, which will be incorporated into the health, social care and wellbeing strategies, we are well placed to ensure that we have a multi-disciplinary, joined-up approach to protect our children, which is the first priority.

Yn sgîl ein trafodaethau yn y Pwyllgor, mae fy swyddogion wedi trafod gyda Gofalwyr Cymru y goblygiadau o gynnwys gofalwyr yn y gwaith hwn a sut y gallwn sicrhau bod y strategaeth a’r cynlluniau i ofalwyr wedi’u hymgorffori yn y strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles. Mae Gofalwyr Cymru wedi dylanwadu ar y canllawiau a gyhoeddir y mis nesaf, neu ddechrau Mawrth. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd y ceir rheoli ar berfformiad yng nghyd-destun yr amrediad o ffactorau sy’n gysylltiedig â gwerthuso’r darparu ar wasanaethau. Bydd hynny’n hollbwysig ar gyfer monitro, nid yn unig gan Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, ond gan gyrff sydd â dylanwad lleol. Credaf mai gwelliant a gynigiwyd gennych chi, David, a ddaeth â’r cynghorau gwirfoddol sirol i mewn ar lefel leol. Mae ganddynt gysylltiad agos â phartneriaethau lleol a chânt effaith fawr. Kirsty, mae’n briodol ichi sôn am bwysigrwydd adroddiad Laming a’r gwersi y bydd yn rhaid inni eu dysgu oddi wrtho o bosibl. Fodd bynnag, gan fod gennym fframweithiau plant a phobl ifanc, a gaiff eu hymgorffori yn y strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles, yr ydym mewn sefyllfa dda i allu sicrhau bod gennym ddull gweithredu amlddisgyblaethol a chydgysylltiedig i amddiffyn ein plant, a honno yw’r flaenoriaeth bennaf.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 33 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (33)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (11)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 32 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (11)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 52

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Point of order. My machine is on the blink and my vote has not been recorded, for what it is worth.

Pwynt o drefn. Mae fy mheiriant yn methu ac nid yw fy mhleidlais wedi’i chofnodi, am ei gwerth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am grateful for that point of order. That has been noted, and will be included in the record.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Nodwyd hynny, ac fe’i cynhwysir yn y cofnod.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 53

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Point of order. This arises from Standing Orders Nos. 22.1, 22.2, 22.3 and 22.4 and relates to the draft regulations that we are about to consider. When the Government prepares draft Orders, it must consider whether a regulatory appraisal of the likely costs and benefits of complying with the Order is necessary. That is a requirement under Standing Order No.22.2. When the draft Order appeared before the Business Committee on 26 November 2002, the explanatory memorandum prepared by the Government for consideration by the Committee contained the following statement:

Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn codi o Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 22.1, 22.2, 22.3 a 22.4 ac mae’n ymwneud â’r rheoliadau drafft yr ydym ar fin eu hystyried. Pan yw’r Llywodraeth yn paratoi Gorchmynion drafft, rhaid iddi ystyried a oes angen arfarniad rheoliadol o’r costau a’r manteision tebygol o gydymffurfio â’r Gorchymyn. Mae hynny’n ofyniad o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.2. Pan ddaeth y Gorchymyn drafft gerbron y Pwyllgor Busnes ar 26 Tachwedd 2002, yr oedd y memorandwm esboniadol a baratowyd gan y Llywodraeth i’w ystyried gan y Pwyllgor yn cynnwys y datganiad a ganlyn:

‘No regulatory appraisal has been carried out in respect of this instrument because there are no significant financial implications for the Assembly.’

Ni wnaed arfarniad rheoliadol mewn cysylltiad â’r offeryn hwn am nad oes goblygiadau ariannol o bwys i’r Cynulliad.

At the time that the memorandum was being prepared there were four progress reports by Bryan Mitchell on the NHS structural reforms, published on 10 September, 26 September, 15 October and 8 November respectively. All those reports referred to major cost risks associated with the reforms. Also, a letter from Sir John Bourn to the director of NHS Wales, dated 6 December, indicated that the running costs of the new programme were £79.6 million, compared to a budget of £71.1 million to run the current system. Therefore, unless there were cost savings, the cost to the Assembly would be £8.5 million, or 10 per cent of the budget. In anyone’s language that constitutes a major cost to the Assembly. The response of the director of NHS Wales to Sir John on 12 December states that the Government is looking at reducing these costs. In his memorandum to the Audit Committee on 16 January, Sir John Bourn recognised that some cost savings had been made, but that they did not comply with a fully cost-neutral budget.

Ar adeg paratoi’r memorandwm bu pedwar adroddiad ar gynnydd gan Bryan Mitchell ar y diwygiadau yn strwythur y GIG, a gyhoeddwyd ar 10 Medi, 26 Medi, 15 Hydref a 8 Tachwedd. Yr oedd pob un o’r adroddiadau hynny’n cyfeirio at risgiau mawr o ran costau mewn cysylltiad â’r newidiadau. Hefyd, mewn llythyr oddi wrth Syr John Bourn at gyfarwyddwr GIG Cymru, dyddiedig 6 Rhagfyr, nodwyd mai costau rhedeg y rhaglen newydd oedd £79.6 miliwn, o’i gymharu â chyllideb o £71.1 miliwn i redeg y system bresennol. Gan hynny, oni bai fod arbedion mewn costau, y gost i’r Cynulliad fyddai £8.5 miliwn, neu 10 y cant o’r gyllideb. Byddai unrhyw un yn ystyried bod hynny’n golygu cost fawr i’r Cynulliad. Mae ateb cyfarwyddwr GIG Cymru i Syr John ar 12 Rhagfyr yn dweud bod y Llywodraeth yn disgwyl lleihau’r costau hynny. Yn ei femorandwm i’r Pwyllgor Archwilio ar 16 Ionawr, cydnabu Syr John Bourn fod rhai arbedion wedi’u gwneud, ond nad oeddent yn cydymffurfio â chyllideb gwbl gost-niwtral.

In such circumstances, is it not technically deficient for the Government to ask Members to vote to approve Orders on the basis that they are cost neutral? There is information in the public domain, from the director of the structural changes project and Sir John Bourn, that there will be significant costs for the Assembly. There has been no response by the Government as to how we can proceed on a cost-neutral-budget basis.

O dan amgylchiadau o’r fath, onid yw’n dechnegol ddiffygiol ar ran y Llywodraeth i ofyn i Aelodau bleidleisio i gymeradwyo Gorchmynion ar y sail eu bod yn gost-niwtral? Mae gwybodaeth yn y maes cyhoeddus, gan gyfarwyddwr y prosiect newidiadau strwythurol a Syr John Bourn, i’r perwyl y bydd costau sylweddol i’r Cynulliad. Ni fu ymateb gan y Llywodraeth ynghylch y modd y gallwn fynd ymlaen ar sail cyllideb gost-niwtral.

As the guardian of Standing Orders and of Assembly Members, I put it to you, Presiding Officer, that it is not right to ask Members to vote to approve these Orders as they are technically deficient, given that there is no regulatory appraisal.

Fel gwarcheidwad Rheolau Sefydlog ac Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, awgrymaf ichi, Lywydd, nad yw’n iawn gofyn i Aelodau bleidleisio i gymeradwyo’r Gorchmynion hyn am eu bod yn dechnegol ddiffygiol, gan nad oes arfarniad rheoliadol.

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 54

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Further to that point of order, it is generally understood, and it is my understanding of Standing Order Nos. 22.2 and 22.3, that regulatory appraisal is to do with asking outside bodies and organisations how an Order may affect them. It is not to do with the effect an Order may have on the Assembly. That is most people’s reading of the Standing Orders. The reason that the Standing Order exists is because it was felt that if an Order were made that imposed costs on outside bodies and organisations, then there should be a statutory right to consultation. It is not to do with the Assembly. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘No, no.’]

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, deëllir yn gyffredinol, a’m dealltwriaeth i o Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 22.2 a 22.3, yw bod arfarnu rheoliadol yn ymwneud â gofyn i gyrff allanol sut y gallai Gorchymyn effeithio arnynt. Nid oes a wnelo ef â’r effaith y gallai Gorchymyn ei chael ar y Cynulliad. Felly y mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn dehongli’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Y rheswm dros fodolaeth y Rheol Sefydlog yw y teimlwyd, os gwneid Gorchymyn a orfodai gostau ar gyrff allanol, y dylid cael hawl statudol i ymgynghori. Nid oes a wnelo ef â’r Cynulliad. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Na, na.’]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 54

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Order. There will not be debate on this matter. I have been asked for a ruling. I am grateful for the comments that have been made, and for the opportunity that the prior notice of this point of order gave me to consider this matter. The substantive point that I have been asked to consider is whether it is appropriate for the Assembly to consider legislation to establish and give functions to the new local health boards, when a regulatory appraisal has not been made in respect of that legislation. I have considered section 65 of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which provides for appraisal to be made before statutory instruments are laid before the Assembly. That section also provides that appraisals need not be made if, in the particular circumstances, it is inappropriate or not reasonably practical to do so. Standing Order No. 22.3 provides that a Minister makes this decision on appropriateness and practicality. In the explanatory memorandum of 26 November 2002 to the Business Committee, in respect of those regulations, the Minister for Health and Social Services said that:

Trefn. Ni fydd dadl ar y mater hwn. Gofynnwyd imi roi dyfarniad. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y sylwadau a wnaed, ac am y cyfle a gefais i ystyried y mater hwn am fy mod wedi fy hysbysu ymlaen llaw am y pwynt o drefn hwn. Y pwynt pwysig y gofynnwyd imi ei ystyried yw a yw’n briodol i’r Cynulliad ystyried deddfwriaeth i sefydlu a rhoi swyddogaethau i’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd, pan nad yw arfarniad rheoliadol wedi’i wneud mewn perthynas â’r ddeddfwriaeth honno. Yr wyf wedi ystyried adran 65 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, sy’n darparu ar gyfer gwneud arfarniad cyn gosod offerynnau statudol gerbron y Cynulliad. Mae’r adran honno’n rhagamodi hefyd nad oes angen gwneud arfarniadau os nad yw’n briodol neu’n rhesymol ymarferol gwneud hynny o dan amgylchiadau penodol. Mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.3 yn rhagamodi mai Gweinidog a fydd yn gwneud y penderfyniad hwn ar briodoldeb ac ymarferoldeb. Yn y memorandwm esboniadol ar 26 Tachwedd 2002 i’r Pwyllgor Busnes, mewn cysylltiad â’r rheoliadau hynny, dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol:

‘No regulatory appraisal has been carried out because there are no significant financial implications for the Assembly businesses and others.’ [Interruption.]

Ni wnaed arfarniad rheoliadol am nad oes goblygiadau ariannol o bwys i fusnesau’r Cynulliad ac eraill. [Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Order. I am quoting from the explanatory memorandum to the Business Committee.

Trefn. Yr wyf yn dyfynnu o’r memorandwm esboniadol i’r Pwyllgor Busnes.

The Minister therefore considered that an appraisal was not appropriate. Since then, the leader of the opposition has drawn our attention to evidence from the National Audit Office and from Assembly officials, some of which predates 26 November and which, in his view, suggests that there are financial implications consequent upon the regulations. I have given careful consideration to the matter and have taken advice that there are financial implications consequent upon these regulations. It is not for me as Presiding Officer to interpose my judgment when a Minister has decided whether or not a matter is appropriate or practicable in the terms of the Act and the Standing Order. Standing Orders do not give me the authority to do that. I must interpret them and decide on their application. In this case, the Standing Orders have been properly applied, but it is not my function to determine whether a Minister has acted properly in arriving at his or her judgment. The Business Committee may want to pursue the question of whether or not it was given full information last November; it is not a matter for me. The Assembly, in considering these regulations during today’s debate, must determine whether it is in possession of all the information that it requires to approve them.

Felly, yr oedd y Gweinidog o’r farn nad oedd arfarniad yn briodol. Ers hynny, mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi tynnu ein sylw at dystiolaeth gan y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol a chan swyddogion y Cynulliad, y cafwyd rhywfaint ohoni cyn 26 Tachwedd ac sydd, yn ei farn ef, yn awgrymu bod goblygiadau ariannol sy’n deillio o’r rheoliadau. Yr wyf wedi ystyried y mater yn fanwl ac wedi cymryd cyngor i’r perwyl bod goblygiadau ariannol sy’n deillio o’r rheoliadau hyn. Nid mater i mi fel Llywydd yw ymyrryd â dyfarniad pan yw Gweinidog wedi penderfynu a yw rhyw fater yn briodol neu’n ymarferol yng nghyd-destun y Ddeddf a’r Rheol Sefydlog. Nid yw Rheolau Sefydlog yn rhoi’r awdurdod imi wneud hynny. Rhaid imi eu dehongli a phenderfynu ar y modd i’w cymhwyso. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’r Rheolau Sefydlog wedi’u cymhwyso’n briodol, ond nid fy swyddogaeth i yw penderfynu a yw Gweinidog wedi gweithredu’n briodol wrth ddod i’w benderfyniad. Efallai y bydd y Pwyllgor Busnes am ystyried a roddwyd gwybodaeth lawn iddo fis Tachwedd diwethaf ai peidio; nid yw’n fater i mi. Wrth i’r Cynulliad ystyried y rheoliadau hyn yn ystod y ddadl heddiw, rhaid iddo benderfynu a yw’n meddu ar yr holl wybodaeth y mae arno’i angen i’w cymeradwyo.

However, I will make one further point. This issue flags up the need to resolve one of the outstanding matters from the Assembly review of procedure. The review concluded in paragraph 8.10 that the Legislation Committee should consider whether the Assembly’s subordinate legislation procedures have been complied with in such matters as the provision of regulatory appraisals. In the various opinions given to the review, there was some uncertainty as to whether the exercise of this power by the Legislation Committee would be lawful. It is now appropriate for this issue to be revisited and resolved.

Fodd bynnag, gwnaf un pwynt pellach. Mae’r mater hwn yn tynnu sylw at yr angen i ddatrys un o’r materion sy’n weddill ar ôl yr adolygiad o weithdrefn y Cynulliad. Daeth yr adolygiad i’r casgliad ym mharagraff 8.10 y dylai’r Pwyllgor Deddfau ystyried a gydymffurfiwyd â gweithdrefnau is-ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad mewn materion fel darparu arfarniadau rheoliadol. Yn y gwahanol farnau a fynegwyd i’r adolygiad, yr oedd peth ansicrwydd ynghylch a fyddai’n gyfreithlon i’r Pwyllgor Deddfau arfer y pŵer hwn. Mae hon yn adeg briodol i ailystyried a datrys y mater hwn.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Swyddogaethau) (Cymru) 2003, Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Sefydlu) (Cymru) 2003 a Rheoliadau Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Cyfansoddiad, Aelodaeth a Gweithdrefnau) (Cymru) 2003

Approval of the Local Health Boards (Functions) (Wales) Regulations 2003, the Local Health Boards (Establishment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and the Local Health Boards (Constitution, Membership and Procedures) (Wales) Regulations 2003

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 56

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 56

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 56

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 57

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 57

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 57

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 57

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I thank the Presiding Officer for the points that he made. These regulations have been appropriately prepared, but I would be happy to respond to issues in today’s debate which relate to these matters. I am pleased to have the opportunity to introduce these motions to seek your agreement to the regulations and Order that establish the legal basis for reforming and developing the NHS in Wales. The NHS Reform and Health Professions Act 2002 provided the context for the proposed restructuring, and the regulations and Order make detailed provision for the constitution, functions and establishment date of local health boards. Other associated legislation, including the Abolition of Health Authorities Order and the Transfer of Assets, Staff and Liabilities Orders will follow shortly.

Diolchaf i’r Llywydd am y pwyntiau a wnaeth. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn wedi’u paratoi’n briodol, ond byddwn yn falch o ymateb i faterion sy’n codi yn y ddadl heddiw sy’n ymwneud â’r materion hyn. Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyfle i gyflwyno’r cynigion hyn i geisio’ch cytundeb ar y rheoliadau a’r Gorchymyn sy’n gosod y sail gyfreithiol i ddiwygio a datblygu’r GIG yng Nghymru. Deddf Diwygio’r GIG a Phroffesiynau Gofal Iechyd 2002 a roddodd y cyd-destun ar gyfer yr ailstrwythuro arfaethedig, ac mae’r rheoliadau a’r Gorchymyn yn gwneud darpariaeth fanwl ar gyfer cyfansoddiad, swyddogaethau a dyddiad sefydlu byrddau iechyd lleol. Bydd deddfwriaeth arall sy’n gysylltiedig â hyn, gan gynnwys Gorchymyn Diddymu Awdurdodau Iechyd a Gorchmynion Trosglwyddo Asedau, Staff a Rhwymedigaethau yn dilyn cyn hir.

The general functions of LHBs include securing and providing primary and community services, securing secondary services, assessing the needs and developing plans to improve the health of communities, partnership, public engagement and provision of services. This legislation has an effect across the wider NHS and local authority arena, involving patients, the voluntary sector and the wider community as partners in taking forward the agenda to provide a responsive, high-quality, accessible service to all patients.

Ymhlith swyddogaethau cyffredinol byrddau iechyd lleol y mae sicrhau a darparu gwasanaethau sylfaenol a chymunedol, sicrhau gwasanaethau eilaidd, asesu anghenion a datblygu cynlluniau i wella iechyd cymunedau, partneriaeth, cysylltu â’r cyhoedd a darparu gwasanaethau. Caiff y ddeddfwriaeth hon effaith ar draws maes ehangach y GIG ac awdurdodau lleol, ac mae’n cynnwys cleifion, y sector gwirfoddol a’r gymuned ehangach fel partneriaid yn y gwaith o hyrwyddo’r agenda i ddarparu gwasanaeth hygyrch, ymatebol o ansawdd da ar gyfer yr holl gleifion.

Uniquely, LHBs and local authorities will have a duty to work together to formulate and implement health and wellbeing strategies for the people in their areas. Bringing the NHS and local government together in this way is a policy distinct to Wales. These changes also bring a greater local voice to NHS decision-making. We need a new, fairer system, based on partnership and underpinned by a concern for quality, equality and effectiveness. The introduction of LHBs reflects a broad approach to partnership working and collaboration within and outside the organisation. The proposed reorganisation was subject to a wide-ranging public consultation from 19 July 2001 to 19 October 2001. The draft subordinate legislation was also subject to formal public consultation from 27 June 2002 to 4 October 2002, as well as being discussed extensively in the Health and Social Services Committee on 17 April, 19 and 27 June and 17 July 2002.

Agwedd unigryw ar hyn yw y bydd byrddau iechyd lleol ac awdurdodau lleol o dan ddyletswydd i gydweithio i ffurfio a gweithredu strategaethau iechyd a lles ar gyfer y bobl yn eu hardaloedd. Mae dod â’r GIG a llywodraeth leol at ei gilydd fel hyn yn bolisi sy’n arbennig i Gymru. Mae’r newidiadau hyn hefyd yn rhoi mwy o lais lleol ym mhenderfyniadau’r GIG. Mae arnom angen system newydd a thecach sy’n seiliedig ar bartneriaeth ac wedi’i hategu gan y pwys a roddir ar ansawdd, cydraddoldeb ac effeithiolrwydd. Mae cyflwyno byrddau iechyd lleol yn arwydd o ymagwedd gyffredinol at weithio mewn partneriaeth a chydweithio y tu mewn a’r tu allan i’r corff. Bu ymgynghori eang â’r cyhoedd ar yr ad-drefnu arfaethedig o 19 Gorffennaf 2001 i 19 Hydref 2001. Bu ymgynghori cyhoeddus ffurfiol hefyd ar yr is-ddeddfwriaeth ddrafft o 27 Gorffennaf 2002 i 4 Hydref 2002, yn ogystal â thrafodaeth helaeth arni yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 17 Ebrill, 19 a 27 Mehefin a 17 Gorffennaf 2002.

The content of the legislation has not changed significantly since the consultation exercise. Some minor amendments must be expected when planning for any major reorganisation. I have adopted all the recommendations made by the legal adviser to the Legislation Committee in respect of the constitution regulations. By bringing these provisions into effect, we will be better placed to challenge health inequality and improve standards of healthcare for the people of Wales. I commend the motion to Members.

Ni fu newid sylweddol yng nghynnwys y ddeddfwriaeth ers yr ymgynghoriad. Rhaid disgwyl rhai mân newidiadau wrth gynllunio ar gyfer unrhyw ad-drefnu helaeth. Yr wyf wedi derbyn yr holl argymhellion a wnaed gan gynghorwr cyfreithiol y Pwyllgor Deddfau mewn cysylltiad â’r rheoliadau cyfansoddiad. Drwy roi’r darpariaethau hyn ar waith, byddwn mewn gwell sefyllfa i allu herio anghydraddoldeb iechyd a gwella safonau gofal iechyd ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i Aelodau.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 59

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Plaid Cymru will vote against these Orders because we remain fundamentally opposed to NHS restructuring—the content has not changed, but the cost has. I state this in response to Sir John Bourn’s recent work on the restructuring costs. He has raised doubts about the Minister for Health and Social Services’s claim of cost neutrality. I quote the Auditor General:

Bydd Plaid Cymru yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y Gorchmynion hyn am ein bod yn parhau i wrthwynebu’r egwyddor o ailstrwythuro’r GIG—nid y cynnwys sydd wedi newid, ond y gost. Dywedaf hyn mewn ymateb i waith diweddar Syr John Bourn ar gostau’r ailstrwythuro. Cododd amheuon ynghylch honiad y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am niwtraliaeth o ran costau. Dyfynnaf eiriau’r Archwilydd Cyffredinol:

‘There are major uncertainties with many of the estimated transitional and running costs.’

Mae ansicrwydd mawr ynghylch llawer o’r costau trosiannol a’r costau rhedeg amcangyfrifedig.

He also states:

Dywed hefyd:

‘At the present time, management cannot be certain that cost neutrality will be achieved.’

Ar hyn o bryd, ni all y rheolwyr fod yn sicr y ceir niwtraliaeth o ran costau.

Clearly, the predetermined promise of cost neutrality is causing trouble for Jane Hutt because savings of £8.5 million in running costs are required to achieve the promise of cost neutrality. Sir John Bourn further comments:

Mae’n amlwg bod yr addewid rhagderfynedig o niwtraliaeth costau yn peri trafferth i Jane Hutt oherwydd bod angen arbedion o £8.5 miliwn mewn costau rhedeg i gadw’r addewid o niwtraliaeth costau. Dywed Syr John Bourn ymhellach:

‘These savings targets are based primarily on the need to achieve cost neutrality rather than a detailed assessment of future needs and how savings can be achieved from the current position.’

Mae’r targedau hyn ar gyfer arbedion yn seiliedig yn bennaf ar yr angen i sicrhau niwtraliaeth o ran costau yn hytrach nag asesiad manwl o anghenion yn y dyfodol a’r modd y gellir sicrhau arbedion gan ddechrau o’r sefyllfa bresennol.

We have had the debate on the regulatory appraisal and the financial implications of this restructuring when it was said in the Business Committee in November that there were no financial implications. Subsequently, the Auditor General’s appraisal in December has cast doubts on this assertion. They are doubts of such magnitude that this Assembly cannot consider and vote for the Orders before us today until after the Audit Committee has investigated the matter fully.

Cawsom y ddadl ar yr arfarniad rheoliadol a goblygiadau ariannol yr ailstrwythuro hwn pan ddywedwyd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes ym mis Tachwedd nad oedd unrhyw oblygiadau ariannol. Wedi hynny, mae arfarniad yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol yn Rhagfyr wedi bwrw amheuaeth ar yr honiad hwn. Maent yn amheuon mor fawr fel na all y Cynulliad hwn ystyried a phleidleisio o blaid y Gorchmynion sydd ger ein bron heddiw hyd nes y bydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio wedi ymchwilio’n llawn i’r mater hwn.

We heard recently that the restructuring of Education and Learning Wales is facing difficulties. I will allow colleagues from the field of education to comment further on that in Committee, but there is no doubt that ELWa’s restructuring is facing difficulties. However, NHS restructuring is of an order of magnitude many times more than that. Let us pause, reflect and reconsider, otherwise people will ask how we got here—they are already asking that of ELWa. In months and years to come, they will be asking the same of the NHS.

Clywsom yn ddiweddar fod anawsterau wrth ailstrwythuro Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru. Gadawaf i’m cyd-Aelodau ym maes addysg wneud sylwadau pellach ar hynny yn y Pwyllgor, ond nid oes dwywaith na phrofir anawsterau wrth ailstrwythuro ELWa. Fodd bynnag, mae ailstrwythuro’r GIG yn dasg llawer mwy na hynny. Gadewch inni aros, myfyrio ac ailystyried, neu fel arall bydd pobl yn holi sut y daethom i’r fan hon—maent eisoes yn gofyn hynny ynghylch ELWa. Ymhen misoedd a blynyddoedd, byddant yn gofyn yr un peth ynghylch y GIG.

This restructuring is Jane Hutt’s big idea to tackle the rising tide of illness in Wales. Notwithstanding that, this is the sixth restructuring in the last 13 years in Wales and these plans are deeply unpopular within the NHS. Plaid Cymru would not restructure. The big idea should be to increase the ability of the NHS to deal with ever-spiralling waiting lists by increasing the number of beds, nurses and doctors. Increasing the capacity to treat more people should be the big idea.

Yr ailstrwythuro hwn yw syniad mawr Jane Hutt i fynd i’r afael â’r ymchwydd o salwch yng Nghymru. Er hynny, dyma’r chweched ailstrwythuro yn y 13 mlynedd diwethaf yng Nghymru ac mae’r cynlluniau hyn yn dra amhoblogaidd yn y GIG. Ni fyddai Plaid Cymru yn ailstrwythuro. Y syniad mawr y dylid ei arddel yw cynyddu gallu’r GIG i ddelio â’r rhestrau aros cynyddol drwy gynyddu nifer y gwelyau, y nyrsys a’r meddygon. Cynyddu’r gallu i drin rhagor o bobl yw’r syniad mawr y dylid ei arddel.

Last week in the Health and Social Services Committee, our excellent new Members’ research service produced the waiting list comparisons between Wales and England. They are worth noting. In Wales, while over 82,000 people wait more than six months to see a consultant for a first out-patient appointment, the equivalent figure in England is 716. In Wales, while over 4,800 people wait more than 18 months for an in-patient surgical appointment after seeing the consultant, the equivalent figure in England is only 6. That is the magnitude of the challenge. Paralysing the service with yet another restructuring will do nothing to tackle this huge disparity in waiting times.

Yr wythnos diwethaf yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, cynhyrchodd ein gwasanaeth ymchwil newydd rhagorol i Aelodau gymariaethau mewn rhestrau aros rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Maent yn werth eu nodi. Yng Nghymru, tra bo rhagor na 82,000 o bobl yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis i weld ymgynghorydd yn eu hapwyntiad cyntaf fel claf allanol, y ffigur cyfatebol yn Lloegr yw 716. Yng Nghymru, tra bo rhagor na 4,800 o bobl yn disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis am apwyntiad llawfeddygol fel claf mewnol ar ôl gweld yr ymgynghorydd, y ffigur cyfatebol yn Lloegr yw dim ond 6. Dyna faint yr her. Ni wneir dim drwy barlysu’r gwasanaeth ag ailstrwythuriad arall i fynd i’r afael â’r gwahaniaeth anferth hwn mewn amseroedd aros.

However, reassuringly, some figures are decreasing—only 93 days and falling until election day.

Fodd bynnag, un cysur yw bod rhai ffigurau’n gostwng—dim ond 93 diwrnod sydd tan ddiwrnod yr etholiad.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 61

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I listen to spin on this issue regularly. David Melding has not yet spoken, and I am waiting to hear what he has to say. The Tories have always got something to say about these proposals and yet we all remember how they treated the NHS for many years and the resulting disaster. They never like to be reminded about the trusts that were introduced overnight without any consultation, when all the members parachuted in. Ron Davies, when he was Secretary of State for Wales, said that the trusts should be opened up for public hearings and that people should be able to attend those hearings. That was a good decision in terms of openness and accountability.

Gwrandawaf ar sbin ar y mater hwn yn rheolaidd. Nid yw David Melding wedi siarad eto, ac yr wyf yn aros i glywed beth sydd ganddo i’w ddweud. Mae gan y Torïaid rywbeth i’w ddweud am y cynigion hyn bob amser ac eto yr ydym oll yn cofio’r modd y gwnaethant drin y GIG am flynyddoedd lawer a’r trychineb a ddilynodd hynny. Nid ydynt byth yn hoffi cael eu hatgoffa am yr ymddiriedolaethau a gyflwynwyd dros nos heb unrhyw ymgynghori, pan wnaeth yr holl aelodau barasiwtio i mewn. Dywedodd Ron Davies, pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, y dylid agor yr ymddiriedolaethau i wrandawiadau cyhoeddus ac y dylai pobl gael mynychu’r gwrandawiadau hynny. Yr oedd hwnnw’n benderfyniad da o ran bod yn agored ac atebol.

I listened to Dai, and what Plaid Cymru has to say, trying to make cheap capital out of this before the election. However, the fact is that Plaid Cymru knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I am excited about the proposals that the Minster put forward. They are a form of devolution; they empower people in our communities to make their own decisions, from the bottom up —

Gwrandewais ar Dai, a’r hyn sydd gan Blaid Cymru i’w ddweud wrth geisio elwa ar hyn cyn yr etholiad. Fodd bynnag, y gwir amdani yw bod Plaid Cymru yn gwybod pris popeth ond na ŵyr werth dim byd. Yr wyf yn cael y cynigion y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cyflwyno’n rhai cyffrous. Maent yn fath o ddatganoli; maent yn galluogi pobl yn ein cymunedau i wneud eu penderfyniadau eu hun, o’r gwaelod i fyny—

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 61

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Did you not feel that you were empowered when you were a member of a health quango?

Oni wnaethoch chi deimlo’ch bod wedi’ch galluogi pan oeddech yn aelod o gwango iechyd?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 61

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I was probably one of the best appointments that you made. [Laughter.]

Yr oeddwn i ymysg y penodiadau gorau a wnaethoch yn ôl pob tebyg. [Chwerthin.]

At last we will empower people from all walks of life and they will do what they consider to be necessary in their communities. The Minister listened to the representations of the people who will sit on the local health boards with our general practitioners: democratically elected councillors, social services professionals, professions allied to medicine, therapists, voluntary sector and community health council representatives, lay people and patients.

O’r diwedd byddwn yn galluogi pobl o bob cefndir a gwnânt yr hyn a ystyriant ei fod yn angenrheidiol yn eu cymunedau. Gwnaeth y Gweinidog wrando ar sylwadau’r rhai a fydd yn eistedd ar y byrddau iechyd lleol gyda’n hymarferwyr cyffredinol: cynghorwyr a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd, gweithwyr proffesiynol yn y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, y proffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth, therapyddion, cynrychiolwyr y sector gwirfoddol a chynghorau iechyd cymunedol, lleygwyr a chleifion.

All this augurs well, because people in those 22 areas will know what their priorities are. I have often witnessed a ‘that will do’ approach in the past. That was the reaction of the five monolithic authorities—at one time there were eight. If you live in a deprived community like Blaenau Gwent, you are always on the tail end of receiving these services. However, we are now in the position—

Mae hyn oll yn argoeli’n dda, oherwydd bydd pobl yn y 22 ardal hynny’n gwybod beth yw eu blaenoriaethau. Gwelais ymagwedd ‘gwnaiff hynny’r tro’ yn aml yn y gorffennol. Dyna oedd ymateb y pum awdurdod monolithig—ar un adeg yr oedd wyth. Os ydych yn byw mewn cymuned ddifreintiedig fel Blaenau Gwent, chi sy’n cael y gwasanaethau hyn yn olaf bob tro. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym bellach mewn sefyllfa—

David Davies spoken in English p. 62

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Did you support local government reorganisation?

A oeddech o blaid ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 62

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

What on earth does that have to do with reorganising the health service? That is an irrelevant question. We must concentrate on what is being put forward today. You should be pleased about this, David. I am sure that it would be warmly welcomed in Monmouthshire. I know the background to some of Monmouthshire’s NHS problems.

Beth ar y ddaear sydd a wnelo hynny ag ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd? Cwestiwn amherthnasol yw hwnnw. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn a gyflwynir heddiw. Dylech fod yn falch am hyn, David. Yr wyf yn siŵr y câi groeso cynnes yn Sir Fynwy. Gwn am y cefndir i rai o broblemau’r GIG yn Sir Fynwy.

I welcome this regulation. It represents partnership—communities working together to give us new opportunities to develop the best healthcare proposals and facilities for all our people. It also takes account of what local people want. That has to be right. These meetings will be open to the public. We should endorse these proposals because they are in tune with the needs of the people of Wales.

Croesawaf y rheoliad hwn. Mae’n golygu partneriaeth—cymunedau’n cydweithio i roi cyfleoedd newydd inni ddatblygu’r cynigion a’r cyfleusterau gorau ar gyfer gofal iechyd i’n holl bobl. Mae hefyd yn ystyried yr hyn y mae ar bobl leol ei eisiau. Mae hynny’n sicr o fod yn iawn. Bydd y cyfarfodydd hyn yn agored i’r cyhoedd. Dylem gymeradwyo’r cynigion hyn am eu bod mewn cytgord ag anghenion pobl Cymru.

David Melding spoken in English p. 62

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

We are well into electioneering mode, as you can tell from Peter Law’s speech. To reply in kind, I wonder what the backbench Labour Members of the Health and Social Services Committee are for. You never hear a peep out of them in the Chamber. You do not hear much out of them when it comes to defending these proposals in Committee. It seems as though Labour cannot get its own people, who are hearing these arguments day in day out, to repeat them in a public arena. Instead, it has to rely on political knockabout—which we all enjoy—but it is the same old record with the odd variation played for our delight.

Yr ydym wedi hen gychwyn ar y dull siarad etholiadol, fel y gallwch weld o araith Peter Law. Er mwyn ymateb yn yr un modd, byddaf yn meddwl tybed beth yw diben Aelodau Llafur meinciau cefn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Ni chlywch yr un smic ganddynt yn y Siambr byth. Ni chlywch lawer ganddynt pan ddaw’n fater o amddiffyn y cynigion hyn yn y Pwyllgor. Ymddengys nad yw Llafur yn gallu cael gan ei bobl ei hun, sy’n clywed y dadleuon hyn ddydd ar ôl dydd, eu hailadrodd yn y maes cyhoeddus. Yn hytrach, rhaid iddo ddibynnu ar gecru gwleidyddol—y mae pawb ohonom yn ei fwynhau—ond yr un hen record ydyw gydag ambell amrywiad a chwaraeir er difyrrwch i ni.

The ‘wicked’ Tories may have introduced the trusts overnight, but Labour has not got rid of them in six years. I suggest that it has reconciled itself to the value of that particular organisational approach. You said that we introduced the trusts overnight, but will any of us forget how the health authorities were abolished? Was there a moment of consultation or a hint of an announcement in the Assembly? Was the Health and Social Services Committee given an idea, in any way, of the likely thinking of the Minister? No. The change was announced one evening in a speech by the Minister. The following day, we asked her what would happen to local health groups, which did not even know that they were to be legally abolished because at that time they were sub-committees of the health authority. There was derision about the Minister’s approach on all these issues. It is complete nonsense to say that there was consultation—which occurred long after the Minister’s original decision—and that her proposals were received with enthusiasm. I am sure that all this will backfire on election day.

Efallai fod y Torïaid ‘drwg’ wedi cyflwyno’r ymddiriedolaethau dros nos, ond nid yw Llafur wedi cael gwared â hwy mewn chwe blynedd. Awgrymaf ei fod wedi derbyn gwerth y dull trefniadol penodol hwnnw. Dywedasoch ein bod wedi cyflwyno’r ymddiriedolaethau dros nos, ond a wnaiff yr un ohonom anghofio sut y diddymwyd yr awdurdodau iechyd? A fu eiliad o ymgynghori neu ryw awgrym o gyhoeddiad yn y Cynulliad? A roddwyd unrhyw syniad o gwbl i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol o feddwl tebygol y Gweinidog? Naddo. Cyhoeddwyd y newid un noson mewn araith gan y Gweinidog. Drannoeth, gwnaethom ofyn iddi beth a ddigwyddai i grwpiau iechyd lleol, nad oeddent hyd yn oed yn gwybod eu bod i’w diddymu’n gyfreithiol am eu bod ar y pryd yn is-bwyllgorau i’r awdurdod iechyd. Yr oedd dirmyg yn y modd yr aeth y Gweinidog ynghylch yr holl faterion hyn. Lol yw dweud bod ymgynghori—a ddigwyddodd ymhell ar ôl penderfyniad gwreiddiol y Gweinidog—a bod ei chynigion wedi cael derbyniad brwdfrydig. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd pris i’w dalu am hyn i gyd ar ddiwrnod yr etholiad.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 63

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Will you accept that Labour has always pursued an open and accountable system of appointment to these boards? With the Tories, there was no Nolan committee, no accountability and no hope for anyone other than a member of the Tory party. The Tories used to operate a system of ‘buy one get one free’ in terms of quango jobs.

A wnewch dderbyn bod Llafur bob amser wedi gweithredu system agored ac atebol o benodi i’r byrddau hyn? Yn achos y Torïaid, ni fu unrhyw bwyllgor Nolan, unrhyw atebolrwydd nac unrhyw obaith i neb heblaw aelod o’r blaid Dorïaidd. Arferai’r Torïaid redeg system o ‘prynwch un a chewch un am ddim’ yng nghyd-destun swyddi ar gwangos.

David Melding spoken in English p. 63

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I do not occupy a black and white world. My view on public appointments is that the process has been improved immeasurably in the last six years as a result of decisions made by the Labour Party. A few other measures were implemented, which were for the public good, such as introducing an element of proportional representation in Assembly elections. I have no difficulty in recognising political achievement when it occurs. We have a better public appointments system now than previously. I am glad to say that we would take those reforms even further.

Nid wyf yn byw mewn byd du a gwyn. Fy marn i am benodiadau cyhoeddus yw bod y broses wedi’i gwella’n ddirfawr yn y chwe blynedd diwethaf o ganlyniad i benderfyniadau gan y Blaid Lafur. Rhoddwyd ychydig o fesurau eraill ar waith, a oedd er budd y cyhoedd, fel cyflwyno elfen o gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol mewn etholiadau Cynulliad. Nid wyf yn ei chael yn anodd cydnabod llwyddiannau gwleidyddol pan geir hynny. Mae gennym well system penodiadau cyhoeddus nag o’r blaen. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud y byddem yn mynd â’r diwygiadau hynny ymhellach.

I also compliment the Minister in terms of the legislation, even though her original decision was made in haste and that she repented at leisure. After the initial problem of a Wales-only Bill being abandoned within six weeks, when the England and Wales Bill was presented she allowed a great deal of consultation in Committee and a full Plenary debate, or at least she asked the Business Minister to make time available. She has allowed these measures to be discussed fully. At every juncture, the Labour and Liberal coalition has had to present its majority and you will have to present it again later this afternoon because we will vote against these measures.

Llongyfarchaf y Gweinidog hefyd ar y ddeddfwriaeth, er iddi wneud ei phenderfyniad gwreiddiol ar frys ac mae wedi edifarhau am hynny wrth ei phwysau. Ar ôl y broblem gyntaf o roi’r gorau i fesur i Gymru’n unig o fewn chwe wythnos, pan gyflwynwyd y Mesur i Gymru a Lloegr caniataodd lawer iawn o ymgynghori yn y Pwyllgor a dadl lawn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, neu o leiaf y gofynnodd i’r Trefnydd neilltuo amser. Caniataodd drafodaeth lawn ar y mesurau hyn. Bu’n rhaid i’r glymblaid Lafur a Rhyddfrydol gyflwyno ei mwyafrif bob tro a byddwch yn gorfod ei gyflwyno eto’n ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma oherwydd pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y mesurau hyn.

There is no doubt that devolution has worked in terms of scrutiny and decision-making, but I am still against this decision in principle. It abolishes five health authorities and replaces them with 22 health commissioning bodies. It is bureaucratic and enforces on the health service a massive structural change at a time when the Government has increased spending on health by around 40 per cent. To turn on the tap to that degree while you are embarked on major structural change is foolhardy, and it is probably the biggest reason why we have seen so little return for the extra spending on health. Last year, 3 per cent fewer hospital patients were treated than four years ago. The number of elective operations has declined by 8 per cent. It is astonishing what is happening—we are going backwards in terms of the number of hospital patients being treated.

Nid oes dwywaith nad yw datganoli wedi gweithio o ran craffu a phenderfynu, ond yr wyf yn dal i fod yn erbyn y penderfyniad hwn mewn egwyddor. Mae’n diddymu pum awdurdod iechyd ac yn rhoi 22 o gyrff comisiynu iechyd yn eu lle. Mae’n fiwrocrataidd ac yn gorfodi newid strwythurol enfawr ar y gwasanaeth iechyd ar adeg pan fo’r Llywodraeth wedi cynyddu gwariant ar iechyd oddeutu 40 y cant. Mae agor y tap i’r fath raddau tra ydych yn cychwyn ar newid strwythurol mawr yn beth ffôl, a dyna’r rheswm pennaf, yn ôl pob tebyg, pam y cawsom gyn lleied yn ôl am y gwariant ychwanegol ar iechyd. Y llynedd, triniwyd 3 y cant yn llai o gleifion ysbyty nag a driniwyd bedair blynedd yn ôl. Mae nifer y llawdriniaethau dewisol wedi gostwng o 8 y cant. Mae’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn rhyfeddol—yr ydym yn mynd yn ein hôl o ran nifer y cleifion ysbyty a gaiff eu trin.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 64

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Do you agree that a great deal of the rationale behind this increased funding has been provided by the Wanless report? The approach that we have adopted and on which we will vote this afternoon is precisely that outlined in Derek Wanless’s report.

A ydych yn cytuno bod llawer o’r sail resymegol i’r cyllido cynyddol hwn i’w chael yn adroddiad Wanless? Y dull gweithredu yr ydym wedi’i fabwysiadu ac y byddwn yn pleidleisio arno y prynhawn yma yw’r union un a ddisgrifiwyd yn adroddiad Derek Wanless.

David Melding spoken in English p. 64

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Your Government has spent the money and then brought in the consultant to tell you how to spend it. Most of us would say that you should plan your spending in order to make an effective investment by way of a more mature procedure that can be rationally followed and planned. You have not done that. We are yet to see a return—it may come, but that will have to be seen.

Mae’ch Llywodraeth wedi gwario’r arian ac wedyn wedi dod â’r ymgynghorydd i mewn i ddweud wrthych sut i’w wario. Dywedai’r rhan fwyaf ohonom y dylech gynllunio’ch gwariant er mwyn buddsoddi’n effeithiol drwy weithdrefn fwy aeddfed y gellir ei dilyn a’i chynllunio’n rhesymegol. Ni wnaethoch hynny. Nid ydym wedi gweld unrhyw fudd eto—efallai y daw, ond bydd yn rhaid aros i weld.

The number of patients receiving treatment is decreasing and waiting times for the patients that the NHS manages to treat are increasing. The First Minister mentioned targeted patient waiting lists earlier. He is right to say that, in terms of certain procedures, there have been improvements. However, he will have to move away from the promises that he made in his manifesto in 1999. He will even have to move away from the promises that the Minister for Health and Social Services made on her own volition in June 2000.

Mae nifer y cleifion a gaiff eu trin yn gostwng ac mae’r amseroedd aros i’r cleifion y mae’r GIG yn llwyddo i’w trin yn cynyddu. Soniodd y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach am restrau aros i gleifion sydd wedi’u targedu. Mae’n iawn wrth ddweud bod gwelliannau wedi bod o ran rhai gweithdrefnau. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid iddo roi’r gorau i’r addewidion a wnaeth yn ei faniffesto yn 1999. Bydd yn rhaid iddo roi’r gorau i’r addewidion a wnaeth y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol o’i dewis ei hun ym Mehefin 2000 hyd yn oed.

One indication of this massive failure is that there are almost 250,000 people in Wales waiting to see a consultant. They have not yet had a firm diagnosis; they are waiting to see a consultant. That number has increased from 100,000 in 1997, and is far too high. For all those waiting list promises that are being delivered, we must remember that the clock starts when you see the consultant. A quarter of a million people are not even on the waiting list because they have not yet seen the consultant. In England, they are moving to a system where the clock for waiting time targets starts when you see the GP. That would be a way of treating the people of Wales fairly. Therefore, instead of these fancy, bureaucratic structural changes, give the people of Wales a few promises on which they can rely and honour your manifesto commitments. You should reverse this disastrous decision, which will mean running the health service at a cost of £95 million in the first year, instead of £72 million. That is not good value by anyone’s standard.

Un arwydd o’r methiant aruthrol hwn yw bod ymron i 250,000 o bobl yng Nghymru sy’n aros i weld ymgynghorydd. Nid ydynt wedi cael diagnosis pendant eto; maent yn disgwyl i weld ymgynghorydd. Mae’r nifer hwnnw wedi codi o 100,000 yn 1997, ac mae’n rhy uchel o lawer. Am yr holl addewidion hynny a gyflawnir ar restrau aros, rhaid inni gofio bod y cloc yn dechrau tician pan yw rhywun yn gweld yr ymgynghorydd. Mae chwarter miliwn o bobl nad ydynt hyd yn oed ar y rhestr aros am nad ydynt wedi gweld yr ymgynghorydd. Yn Lloegr, maent yn symud tuag at system lle y mae’r cloc ar gyfer targedau amseroedd aros yn dechrau tician pan welir y meddygon teulu. Byddai hynny’n fodd i drin pobl Cymru’n deg. Felly, yn lle’r newidiadau strwythurol biwrocrataidd ffansi hyn, rhowch ychydig o addewidion i bobl Cymru y gallant ddibynnu arnynt ac anrhydeddwch ymrwymiadau eich maniffesto. Dylech wrthdroi’r penderfyniad trychinebus hwn, a fydd yn golygu rhedeg y gwasanaeth iechyd ar gost o £95 miliwn yn y flwyddyn gyntaf, yn hytrach na £72 miliwn. Nid yw hynny’n cynnig gwerth da yn ôl unrhyw safon.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 65

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I endorse David Melding’s comments about the process by which these regulations were dealt with. I am particularly proud that the Health and Social Services Committee had the opportunity to rigorously consider these Orders in draft form, and was able to propose amendments as it saw fit. That process is unique to Assembly Committees. I am grateful to Committee members for the way they took this process on board, and gave these—and previous—Orders proper scrutiny. It is right for David Lloyd to raise the issue of the robustness of spending predictions. He will be aware that I made a specific request to the Minister at the last Health and Social Services Committee meeting to ensure that regular financial updates about the restructuring were brought to the Committee to enable proper scrutiny.

Ategaf sylwadau David Melding am y broses o ymdrin â’r rheoliadau hyn. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch bod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi cael cyfle i ystyried y Gorchmynion hyn yn drwyadl ar eu ffurf ddrafft, a’i fod wedi gallu cynnig gwelliannau fel y gwelai’n dda. Mae’r broses honno’n unigryw i Bwyllgorau Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i aelodau’r Pwyllgor am y modd yr ymgymerasant â’r broses hon, a chraffu ar y Gorchmynion hyn—a rhai blaenorol—mewn modd priodol. Mae’n iawn i David Lloyd godi’r mater o ba mor ddibynadwy y mae’r rhagfynegiadau gwariant. Bydd yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi gwneud cais penodol i’r Gweinidog yn y cyfarfod diwethaf o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i sicrhau y deuir ag adroddiadau ariannol am yr ailstrwythuro i’r Pwyllgor yn rheolaidd fel y gellid ei arolygu’n iawn.

However, I take exception to Dai Lloyd’s comments. I can respect David Melding’s position; he has always been opposed on principle to this re-organisation. I disagree with him, but I respect his position. Unfortunately, Dai Lloyd seems to have conveniently forgotten what he has said on record. On 1 February 2001, Dai Lloyd said:

Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn gweld bai yn sylwadau Dai Lloyd. Gallaf barchu safbwynt David Melding; mae’n gwrthwynebu’r ad-drefnu hwn ar sail egwyddor erioed. Yr wyf yn anghytuno ag ef, ond parchaf ei safbwynt. Gwaetha’r modd, ymddengys bod Dai Lloyd wedi anghofio’n gyfleus am yr hyn a ddywedodd ar goedd. Ar 1 Chwefror 2001, dywedodd Dai Lloyd:

‘Plaid Cymru argues that this reform does not go far enough’.

‘Dadleua Plaid Cymru nad yw’r diwygiad hwn yn mynd yn ddigon pell’.

It is in the Record; you cannot erase it. It may be uncomfortable now, but it is in the Record. Plaid Cymru has long campaigned to get rid of health authorities. We are glad that that party’s policy is now the country’s policy. I know that that is uncomfortable for Plaid Cymru now, but Dai Lloyd said it—it is in the Record of Proceedings. He tells us now that he is not in favour of this policy. I can respect David Melding’s point; he is being consistent, which is far from what Plaid Cymru has been on this particular issue.

Mae yn y Cofnod; ni allwch ei ddileu. Efallai ei fod yn peri annifyrrwch yn awr, ond mae yn y Cofnod. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi ymgyrchu’n hir dros gael gwared ag awdurdodau iechyd. Yr ydym yn falch bod polisi’r blaid honno bellach yn bolisi i’r wlad. Gwn mai peth annifyr ydyw i Blaid Cymru yn awr, ond dyna a ddywedodd Dai Lloyd—mae yng Nghofnod y Trafodion. Dywed wrthym yn awr nad yw o blaid y polisi hwn. Gallaf barchu’r pwynt a wnaeth David Melding; mae’n gyson, sy’n ymhell o’r hyn y bu Plaid Cymru ar y pwnc penodol hwn.

As a Liberal Democrat, I welcome these Orders. I welcome devolving commissioning healthcare to the local health boards. I also welcome democratising commissioning healthcare. For the first time ever, we will have elected representatives—elected by the people of Wales—taking decisions on what type of health services should be commissioned for those populations. That is the first time that elected members have been used in that way. There are opportunities for voluntary organisations, doctors, nurses, pharmacists and professions allied to medicine to give of their skills to help commission services for local people. That is not to say that I do not have concerns about the make-up of the boards—perhaps, it is not so much the make-up, but I am already concerned about how one local authority has chosen to elect members to the board. We should monitor how elections to these boards take place. If we are to achieve the goal of democratising the commissioning of health services, we must be careful that local authorities, and other organisations, truly consult and elect their representatives properly.

Fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol, croesawaf y Gorchmynion hyn. Croesawaf ddatganoli comisiynu gofal iechyd i’r byrddau iechyd lleol. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu democrateiddio comisiynu gofal iechyd. Am y tro cyntaf erioed, bydd gennym gynrychiolwyr etholedig—a etholwyd gan bobl Cymru—yn penderfynu ar y math o wasanaethau iechyd y dylid eu comisiynu ar gyfer y poblogaethau hynny. Dyna’r tro cyntaf y defnyddiwyd aelodau etholedig felly. Mae cyfleoedd i gyrff gwirfoddol, meddygon, nyrsys, fferyllwyr a phroffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth gynnig eu sgiliau i helpu i gomisiynu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl leol. Nid yw hynny’n gyfystyr â dweud nad oes gennyf bryderon ynghylch gwneuthuriad y byrddau—efallai nad yw’n ymwneud yn ogymaint â’r gwneuthuriad, ond yr wyf eisoes yn bryderus ynghylch y modd y mae un awdurdod lleol wedi dewis ethol aelodau i’r bwrdd. Dylem fonitro sut y mae etholiadau i’r byrddau hyn yn digwydd. Os ydym i gyrraedd y nod o ddemocrateiddio’r gwaith o gomisiynu gwasanaethau iechyd, rhaid inni ofalu bod awdurdodau lleol, a chyrff eraill, yn ymgynghori’n wirioneddol ac yn ethol eu cynrychiolwyr yn briodol.

Dyfed-Powys Health Authority will not be mourned in Brecon and Radnorshire. The opportunity for the people of Powys to decide their priorities is welcome. No tears will be shed for the Dyfed-Powys Health Authority in my constituency. I say that categorically.

Ni fydd galaru ar ôl Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed-Powys ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed. Mae’r cyfle i bobl Powys benderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau i’w groesawu. Ni chollir dagrau dros Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed-Powys yn fy etholaeth i. Dywedaf hynny’n blwmp ac yn blaen.

We have an opportunity to take the health agenda in Wales forward, not only in the health service, but also in local government. There is an opportunity, at this late stage, to turn around and cancel everything, but that would result in further disruption to the service. Change of any kind, and in any organisation, presents particular challenges. I welcome the fact that most NHS staff now know what their roles and jobs will be.

Mae gennym gyfle i fwrw ymlaen â’r agenda iechyd yng Nghymru, nid yn unig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ond mewn llywodraeth leol hefyd. Mae cyfle, ar yr adeg hwyr hon, i droi’n ôl a diddymu popeth, ond byddai hynny’n amharu ar y gwasanaeth ymhellach. Mae newid o unrhyw fath, mewn unrhyw gorff, yn cynnig heriau penodol. Croesawaf y ffaith bod y rhan fwyaf o staff y GIG yn gwybod yn awr beth fydd eu rolau a’u swyddi.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 67

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Are you concerned that £8 million will be detracted from patient care as a result of this re-organisation? Is it not sensible to wait until the Audit Committee discusses this matter in detail—because the Auditor General for Wales has consulted the papers—before pushing forward and pursuing such a silly system?

A ydych yn bryderus y bydd £8 miliwn yn cael ei dynnu oddi wrth ofal am gleifion o ganlyniad i’r ad-drefnu hwn? Onid synhwyrol yw disgwyl nes bydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn trafod y mater hwn yn fanwl—am fod Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru wedi astudio’r papurau—cyn bwrw ymlaen a hyrwyddo system mor wirion?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 67

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

There is no evidence to date that the £8 million that you mentioned will be needed. The letter from the Auditor General also stated that cost savings identified within the Specialised Health Services Commission for Wales have been achieved. To date, savings that were identified have been achieved. Nothing at this stage indicates that other predicted savings will not be achieved. There is evidence that the commitments made have been worked to. I am confident that the Health and Social Services Committee—and, as is right and proper, the Audit Committee as well—will have every opportunity to scrutinise the Minister, and she will be accountable for the promises that she has made. That is the proper way for the Assembly and for Assembly Committees to work. It is not appropriate to turn around now and tell the NHS, which is the largest employer in Wales, that we are sorry, but that we are going to scrap it all and start again. People are expecting to take up posts on 1 April; some are already in post, for example, the medical director of my local health board. That is not appropriate. I commend these regulations and Orders to the Assembly, and I look forward to working with the LHB’s to deliver a better health service, which, as we all agree, is what needs to happen in Wales.

Nid oes tystiolaeth hyd yn hyn y bydd angen y £8 miliwn y gwnaethoch gyfeirio ato. Yr oedd y llythyr oddi wrth yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol yn dweud hefyd fod yr arbedion ar gostau a ddynodwyd yng Nghomisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru wedi’u cyflawni. Hyd yma, mae arbedion a ddynodwyd wedi’u cyflawni. Nid oes unrhyw arwydd ar hyn o bryd na chyflawnir arbedion eraill a ragfynegwyd. Mae tystiolaeth bod yr ymrwymiadau a wnaed wedi’u cadw. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog y bydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol—a’r Pwyllgor Archwilio hefyd, gan fod hynny’n iawn ac yn briodol—yn cael pob cyfle i holi’r Gweinidog yn fanwl, ac y bydd yn atebol am yr addewidion a wnaeth. Dyna’r modd priodol i’r Cynulliad a Phwyllgorau Cynulliad weithio. Nid yw’n briodol troi’n awr at y GIG, sef y cyflogwr mwyaf yng Nghymru, a dweud ei bod yn ddrwg gennym, a’n bod am daflu’r cwbl a dechrau eto. Mae pobl yn disgwyl ymgymryd â swyddi ar 1 Ebrill; mae rhai mewn swyddi eisoes, er enghraifft, cyfarwyddwr meddygol fy mwrdd iechyd lleol i. Nid yw hynny’n briodol. Cymeradwyaf y rheoliadau a’r Gorchmynion hyn i’r Cynulliad, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weithio gyda’r byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau gwell gwasanaeth iechyd, sef yr hyn y mae’n rhaid ei gael yng Nghymru, fel yr ydym oll yn cytuno.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 68

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I welcome the opportunity to expand on the points that I made in my point of order earlier about the cost implications of the reforms, which will create the local health boards. The Government is highly irresponsible to ask us to vote for these regulations, when we have not received sufficient information about the cost involved in setting up these boards. I listened to the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee’s point about that, but she only said that we should vote for these regulations today and discuss the costs in the Health and Social Services Committee. Frankly, that would be too late. Once these regulations had been passed, the local health boards would be set up, whatever the costs. Government members are highly irresponsible to troop through, what I still describe as, division lobbies, and force these changes through, knowing full well that they do not know the cost implications.

Croesawaf y cyfle i ymhelaethu ar y pwyntiau a wneuthum yn fy mhwynt o drefn yn gynharach am y goblygiadau o ran costau sydd yn y diwygiadau, a fydd yn creu’r byrddau iechyd lleol. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn dra anghyfrifol i ofyn inni bleidleisio o blaid y rheoliadau hyn, a ninnau heb gael gwybodaeth ddigonol am y gost sy’n gysylltiedig â sefydlu’r byrddau hyn. Gwrandewais ar y pwynt a wnaeth Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am hynny, ond y cwbl a ddywedodd oedd y dylem bleidleisio dros y rheoliadau hyn heddiw a thrafod y costau yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. A dweud y gwir, byddai hynny’n rhy hwyr. Ar ôl pasio’r rheoliadau hyn, byddai’r byrddau iechyd lleol wedi’u sefydlu, beth bynnag fo’r costau. Mae aelodau’r Llywodraeth yn dra anghyfrifol i heidio drwy’r cynteddau pleidleisio, fel yr wyf yn dal i’w galw, a gorfodi’r newidiadau hyn, gan wybod yn iawn na wyddant am y goblygiadau o ran costau.

Sir John Bourn’s letter to the director of NHS Wales is explicit. He says that the total cost-neutral envelope, through which these changes will be implemented, is £71.1 million. He identified that the real cost of setting up the local health boards is £79.6 million. That means that between December and 1 April, savings of £8.5 million must be made in order to achieve a cost-neutral budget. Sir John Bourn lists where those cost savings need to be made. He says, for example, that £0.5 million must be cut from the Specialised Health Services Commission for Wales’ budget; £1.3 million from the NHS Wales department’s budget, and £1.7 million from the NHS budget. No-one has told us whether these savings have been achieved. What are we doing today? We are buying a pig in a poke—that is what the Government is asking us to do. It is asking us to vote for these regulations without providing a regulatory appraisal, which would tell us whether or not there had been cost overruns.

Mae llythyr Syr John Bourn at gyfarwyddwr GIG Cymru yn ddiamwys. Dywed mai cyfanswm yr amlen gost-niwtral, y gweithredir y newidiadau hyn drwyddynt, yw £71.1 miliwn. Nododd mai gwir gost sefydlu’r byrddau iechyd lleol yw £79.6 miliwn. Golyga hynny fod rhaid cael arbedion o £8.5 miliwn rhwng Rhagfyr a 1 Ebrill er mwyn sicrhau cyllideb gost-niwtral. Mae Syr John Bourn yn rhestru lle y bydd yn rhaid cael yr arbedion mewn costau. Dywed, er enghraifft, fod rhaid torri £0.5 miliwn oddi ar gyllideb Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru; £1.3 miliwn oddi ar gyllideb adran GIG Cymru, a £1.7 miliwn oddi ar gyllideb y GIG. Nid oes neb wedi dweud wrthym a sicrhawyd yr arbedion hynny. Beth yr ydym yn ei wneud heddiw? Yr ydym yn prynu cath mewn cwd—dyna y mae’r Llywodraeth yn gofyn inni ei wneud. Mae’n gofyn inni bleidleisio o blaid y rheoliadau hyn heb ddarparu arfarniad rheoliadol, a ddywedai wrthym a fu gor-redeg ar gostau ai peidio.

The Business Minister should read the notes that he sent to the Business Committee on 26 November. In response to my point of order, he said that a regulatory appraisal would be made only if there were cost implications for bodies outside the Assembly. In his note, he says:

Dylai’r Trefnydd ddarllen y nodiadau a anfonodd i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ar 26 Tachwedd. Mewn ymateb i’m pwynt o drefn, dywedodd na wneid arfarniad rheoliadol oni bai fod goblygiadau o ran costau i gyrff y tu allan i’r Cynulliad. Yn ei nodyn, dywed:

‘There are no financial implications to the Assembly’.

Nid oes goblygiadau o ran costau i’r Cynulliad.

He wants us to believe that it is because outside bodies might have worries about the cost implications. The Government is highly irresponsible to ask us to vote for these changes.

Mae am inni gredu mai oherwydd y gallai cyrff allanol fod yn pryderu am y goblygiadau o ran costau y mae hyn. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn dra anghyfrifol i ofyn inni bleidleisio o blaid y newidiadau hyn.

There are also other reasons. The progress report written by Bryan Mitchell, who has been charged with driving through these changes, states that 64 statutory posts, such as finance directors, nursing directors and others, must be filled to take these changes forward on 1 April. How many of those 64 posts have been filled? Only nineteen—less than a third of those senior posts have been filled.

Mae rhesymau eraill hefyd. Mae’r adroddiad ar gynnydd a ysgrifennwyd gan Bryan Mitchell, yr ymddiriedwyd iddo’r gwaith o yrru drwodd y newidiadau hyn, yn dweud bod rhaid llenwi 64 o swyddi statudol, fel cyfarwyddwyr cyllid, cyfarwyddwyr nyrsio ac eraill, er mwyn bwrw ymlaen â’r newidiadau hyn ar 1 Ebrill. Pa nifer o’r 64 swydd hynny sydd wedi’u llenwi? Dim ond 19—llai nag un rhan o dair o’r swyddi uwch hynny sydd wedi’u llenwi.

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 69

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

In the last Audit Committee, we heard of the lesson that ELWa learned of not having made proper appointments when responsibility was handed over. Is that not a salient warning of what might happen in April?

Yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio diwethaf, clywsom am y wers yr oedd ELWa wedi’i dysgu o beidio o fod wedi gwneud penodiadau priodol pan drosglwyddwyd cyfrifoldeb. Onid yw hynny’n rhybudd perthnasol am yr hyn a allai ddigwydd yn Ebrill?

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 70

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

Dafydd Wigley anticipated my next point, which is relevant. The appointment of finance directors is one of the problems facing the Government. These directors will be responsible for keeping local health boards within financial constraints. It is interesting that the Government cannot tell us how many of these finance directors have been appointed. Sir John Bourn’s report to the Audit Committee on ELWa emphasised that you should not run before you can walk. You should not set up new bodies, unless you have robust financial systems in place, and good corporate governance. Weeks before appointments are made to these local health boards, we have been asked to support these regulations with insufficient information. That is highly irresponsible. Every Member should search their conscience today and ask: ‘How can I support a proposal when I do not know what the costs will be?’ Do not support these regulations in the interest of democracy in Wales.

Mae Dafydd Wigley wedi achub y blaen ar y pwynt nesaf sydd gennyf, sy’n berthnasol. Penodi cyfarwyddwyr cyllid yw un o’r problemau sy’n wynebu’r Llywodraeth. Bydd y cyfarwyddwyr hyn yn gyfrifol am gadw byrddau iechyd lleol o fewn cyfyngiadau ariannol. Mae’n ddiddorol na all y Llywodraeth ddweud wrthym pa nifer o’r cyfarwyddwyr cyllid hyn a benodwyd. Yr oedd adroddiad Syr John Bourn i’r Pwyllgor Archwilio ar ELWa yn pwysleisio na ddylech byth redeg cyn y gallwch gerdded. Ni ddylech sefydlu cyrff newydd, oni bai fod gennych systemau ariannol cadarn ar waith, a llywodraethu corfforaethol da. Wythnosau cyn gwneud penodiadau i’r byrddau iechyd lleol hyn, gofynnwyd inni gefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn heb gael digon o wybodaeth. Mae hynny’n dra anghyfrifol. Dylai pob Aelod chwilio ei gydwybod heddiw a gofyn: ‘Sut y gallaf gefnogi cynnig a minnau heb wybod beth fydd y costau?’ Peidiwch â chefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn er mwyn democratiaeth yng Nghymru.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 70

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

The stance of Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservatives completely contradicts how they supported the previous Orders for our health, social care and wellbeing strategies. This is about political opportunism, and the immaturity to which the First Minister referred earlier. It relates to the inability of Plaid Cymru—the Welsh nationalists—to recognise good news when it sees it.

Mae safbwynt Plaid Cymru a Cheidwadwyr Cymru yn gwbl groes i’w cefnogaeth i’r Gorchmynion blaenorol ar gyfer ein strategaethau iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a lles. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â manteisiaeth wleidyddol, a’r anaeddfedrwydd y cyfeiriodd y Prif Weinidog ato’n gynharach. Mae’n ymwneud ag anallu Plaid Cymru—y cenedlaetholwyr Cymreig—i gydnabod newyddion da pan yw’n eu gweld.

Ieuan Wyn Jones and Dafydd Wigley rose—

Ieuan Wyn Jones a Dafydd Wigley a godasant—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

Order. The Minister is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 70

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

These are such feeble attempts to undermine NHS reform. Plaid Cymru claims that it wants to tackle health inequalities. It claims that it subscribes to partnership and that it wants to involve patients and users in the planning and delivery of healthcare. Where is Plaid Cymru when it tries to challenge these important Orders after we have had such a considerable debate on our reforms?

Mae’r rhain yn ymdrechion mor dila i danseilio’r gwaith o ddiwygio’r GIG. Mae Plaid Cymru yn honni ei bod am fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Mae’n honni ei bod yn cefnogi partneriaeth a’i bod am gynnwys cleifion a defnyddwyr yn y gwaith o gynllunio a darparu gofal iechyd. Beth sydd ym meddwl Plaid Cymru a hithau’n ceisio herio’r Gorchmynion pwysig hyn wedi inni gael dadl mor sylweddol ar ein diwygiadau?

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Will you tell us when you expect the 45 unfilled posts to be filled? Will they be filled before 1 April?

A wnewch ddweud wrthym pa bryd yr ydych yn disgwyl y bydd y 45 o swyddi gwag wedi’u llenwi? A fyddant wedi’u llenwi cyn 1 Ebrill?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 71

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

If you look on the internet, you will see that 52 out of the 64 statutory posts have been filled, or appointments have been offered. We are on time. Plaid Cymru wants to undermine the hundreds of people who have applied for posts on the local health boards. Plaid Cymru’s political immaturity does not recognise that these reforms are hugely popular outside the Assembly, and have support at local level from the health service and local government.

Os edrychwch ar y rhyngrwyd, gwelwch fod 52 o’r 64 o swyddi statudol wedi’u llenwi, neu fod penodiadau wedi’u cynnig. Yr ydym ar amser. Mae Plaid Cymru am danseilio’r cannoedd o bobl sydd wedi ymgeisio am swyddi ar y byrddau iechyd lleol. Nid yw anaeddfedrwydd gwleidyddol Plaid Cymru yn cydnabod bod y diwygiadau hyn yn dra phoblogaidd y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, a bod cefnogaeth iddynt ar lefel leol gan y gwasanaeth iechyd a llywodraeth leol.

Nick Bourne and Brian Hancock rose—

Nick Bourne a Brian Hancock a godasant—

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 71

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I will not give way because we must get through the debate on these Orders.

Nid ildiaf am fod rhaid inni gyrraedd diwedd y ddadl ar y Gorchmynion hyn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Order. The Minister will not give way.

Trefn. Ni wnaiff y Gweinidog ildio.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 71

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I must make it clear to Assembly Members that I agreed to the proposals made by Ann Lloyd, Director of NHS Wales, that the Auditor General for Wales and the National Audit Office should become involved in the ongoing work of planning and preparing for the NHS structural change programme. I do not accept the basis on which Ieuan Wyn Jones raised that point, which tried to undermine the debate and discussion on these Orders. He knows perfectly well that we discussed that matter extensively in Committee before Christmas. Indeed, I responded to an urgent question in the Chamber from David Melding at that time. Ieuan will know that Sir John Bourn has confirmed that the overall financial envelope of £71.1 million is an accurate reflection of the current running costs. He has concluded that all necessary operational planning work is underway to identify how cost neutrality will be achieved—

Rhaid imi roi ar ddeall i Aelodau o’r Cynulliad fy mod wedi cytuno ar y cynigion a wnaed gan Ann Lloyd, Cyfarwyddwr GIG Cymru, y dylai Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru a’r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol gymryd rhan yn y gwaith cyfredol o gynllunio a pharatoi ar gyfer y rhaglen o newid strwythurol yn y GIG. Nid wyf yn derbyn y sail i’r pwynt a gododd Ieuan Wyn Jones, a oedd yn ymgais i danseilio’r ddadl a’r drafodaeth ar y Gorchmynion hyn. Gŵyr yn iawn ein bod wedi trafod y mater hwnnw’n helaeth yn y Pwyllgor cyn y Nadolig. Yn wir, ymatebais i gwestiwn brys yn y Siambr gan David Melding bryd hynny. Gŵyr Ieuan fod Syr John Bourn wedi cadarnhau bod yr amlen ariannol gyffredinol o £71.1 miliwn yn adlewyrchiad cywir o’r costau rhedeg presennol. Daeth i’r casgliad bod yr holl waith cynllunio gweithredol sy’n angenrheidiol i ganfod sut y cyflawnir niwtraliaeth costau ar y gweill—

Nick Bourne a gododd—

Nick Bourne rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

Order. The Minister will not give way.

Trefn. Ni wnaiff y Gweinidog ildio.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 72

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

We have accepted every point in Sir John Bourn’s letter. It is important to recognise the amount of scrutiny to which this re-organisation has been subjected. Such scrutiny did not occur when the ‘wicked’ Tories brought the trusts in overnight. We must accept that the Welsh Assembly Government—

Yr ydym wedi derbyn pob pwynt sydd yn llythyr Syr John Bourn. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod maint y craffu a fu ar yr ad-drefnu hwn. Ni chafwyd craffu o’r fath pan gyflwynodd y Torïaid ‘drwg’ yr ymddiriedolaethau dros nos. Rhaid inni dderbyn bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 72

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 72

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I will give way if I have time, Nick.

Gwnaf os bydd gennyf ddigon o amser, Nick.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

Order. It is up to the Minister whether she gives way or not.

Trefn. Mater i’r Gweinidog yw a wnaiff ildio ai peidio.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 72

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I will give way to Nick on this one point.

Gwnaf ildio i Nick ar y pwynt hwn yn unig.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 72

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I am glad that you have given way at last: having attacked my party, it is only reasonable that you should. You seem to confuse consultation with enlisting support. Do you accept that we are not in a one-party state and that there is no obligation for political opponents to support you when there is a widely held view outside the Assembly that these reforms are disastrous? They are costing a massive amount of money, there are many unfilled posts, and we have the worst waiting lists in the western world. This will make the situation worse. I am sorry that I am not able to support the proposals, but they are lousy and will not help patients in Wales.

Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi ildio o’r diwedd: a chithau wedi ymosod ar fy mhlaid, nid yw ond yn rhesymol eich bod yn gwneud hynny. Ymddengys eich bod yn cymysgu ymgynghori â sicrhau cefnogaeth. A ydych yn derbyn nad ydym mewn gwladwriaeth unbleidiol ac nad yw gwrthwynebwyr gwleidyddol yn gorfod eich cefnogi pan fo barn gyffredin y tu allan i’r Cynulliad bod y diwygiadau hyn yn drychinebus? Maent yn costio swm enfawr o arian, mae llawer o swyddi heb eu llenwi, ac mae gennym y rhestrau aros gwaethaf yn y byd gorllewinol. Bydd hyn yn gwaethygu’r sefyllfa. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf na allaf gefnogi’r cynigion, ond maent yn druenus ac ni fyddant yn helpu cleifion yng Nghymru.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 72

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I dispute all of your points. You are out of touch with the debate that we have had in the Health and Social Services Committee and with the patients, users and health professionals in the health and social care policy community who are now taking this forward.

Anghytunaf â phob un o’r pwyntiau a wnaethoch. Nid ydych mewn cysylltiad â’r ddadl a gawsom yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r cleifion, y defnyddwyr a’r gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol yn y gymuned bolisi iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol sy’n hyrwyddo hyn yn awr.

Brian Hancock a gododd—

Brian Hancock rose—

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 73

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I am not giving way.

Nid ildiaf.

This must be about taking forward a reform that is fundamental to ensuring that the people of Wales have power and control over the health budget, which has doubled, and about removing a totally inappropriate tier of bureaucracy between the democratically-elected Assembly and the people at a local level, who know what their communities need, in partnership with local government and the voluntary sector. That is the basis of the scrutiny that will continue as we debate and work through implementing the plans and reforms, and it is the basis of the regulations and the motions before you today.

Mae hyn yn ymwneud â bwrw ymlaen â diwygiad sy’n hollbwysig i sicrhau bod pobl Cymru yn meddu ar bŵer a rheolaeth dros y gyllideb iechyd, sydd wedi dyblu, a dileu haen gwbl amhriodol o fiwrocratiaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd a’r bobl ar lefel leol, a ŵyr am anghenion eu cymunedau, mewn partneriaeth â llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol. Dyna’r sail i’r craffu a fydd yn parhau wrth inni drafod y cynlluniau a’r diwygiadau a’u rhoi ar waith, a dyna sail y rheoliadau a’r cynigion sydd ger eich bron heddiw.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 21

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 20

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (20)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion

Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 77

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.

Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 77

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 10 Yn erbynAgainst 1

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (10)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
  • Janet Ryder

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 79

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 79

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.29 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.29 p.m.

Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)

Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party)

Pwerau i Ysgolion

Powers for Schools

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 80

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 81

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 81

Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I am delighted to be able to open this Welsh Conservative Party debate which calls for greater powers to be devolved to schools, including how schools are managed and the financial control that they have. I thank the Business Minister for rearranging Government business today to make it possible for this debate to take place. We do not support the Government’s amendment 1 as it does not add anything to the motion and is somewhat nonsensical.

Yr wyf wrth fy modd fy mod yn gallu agor y ddadl hon o eiddo Plaid Geidwadol Cymru sy’n galw am ddatganoli mwy o bwerau i ysgolion, gan gynnwys y dull o reoli ysgolion a’r rheolaeth ariannol sydd ganddynt. Diolchaf i’r Trefnydd am aildrefnu busnes y Llywodraeth heddiw i’w gwneud yn bosibl cynnal y ddadl hon. Nid ydym yn cefnogi gwelliant 1 y Llywodraeth gan nad yw’n ychwanegu dim at y cynnig ac mae braidd yn ddisynnwyr.

During my time as an Assembly Member, it has been a privilege to serve on three Assembly education Committees. I have witnessed three Ministers responsible for education constructing policies, schemes and initiatives for our education service founded on a basic principle, namely ‘the Minister knows best’ principle. That principle of command and control, which adheres to past socialist ideals of central planning, is the hallmark of this Liberal-driven Labour-led Government. There is an alternative model for delivery in Wales, based on the school as the key unit of that delivery. We should start with the basic principle that headteachers and governors are best placed to take decisions according to the particular circumstances of their schools and the needs of the communities that they serve. The role of Government should be to provide the resources and the general direction without daily interference. Managing the behavioural problems, discipline and exclusion of pupils, for example, is one area of daily life in which the Welsh Assembly Government and the UK Government has interfered. Exclusion targets aimed at reducing permanent exclusions provide refuge for those who, for whatever reason, cannot be taught in the school setting. Sadly, the Minister seems to believe that all pupils are capable of remaining in school and taught in the classroom. That is the Government’s misconception. It does not face the reality that schools face daily.

Yn ystod fy amser yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad, bu’n fraint gwasanaethu ar dri Phwyllgor addysg yn y Cynulliad. Gwelais dri Gweinidog a oedd yn gyfrifol am addysg yn llunio polisïau, cynlluniau a mentrau ar gyfer ein gwasanaeth addysg ar sail egwyddor elfennol, sef egwyddor ‘y Gweinidog a ŵyr orau’. Yr egwyddor honno o orchymyn a rheoli, sy’n glynu wrth hen ddelfrydau sosialaidd o gynllunio canolog, yw nod amgen y Llywodraeth hon a gaiff ei gyrru gan y Rhyddfrydwyr a’i harwain gan Lafur. Mae model amgen ar gyfer darparu yng Nghymru, sy’n seiliedig ar yr ysgol fel uned allweddol y darparu hwnnw. Dylem ddechrau â’r egwyddor sylfaenol mai penaethiaid ysgol a llywodraethwyr sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i wneud penderfyniadau yn unol ag amgylchiadau penodol eu hysgolion ac anghenion y cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu. Rôl briodol Llywodraeth yw darparu’r adnoddau a’r cyfeiriad cyffredinol heb ymyrraeth beunyddiol. Rheoli problemau ymddygiadol, disgyblaeth a gwahardd disgyblion, er enghraifft, yw un maes mewn bywyd pob dydd y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU wedi ymyrryd ynddo. Mae targedau ar gyfer gwahardd sydd â’r amcan o leihau nifer y gwaharddiadau parhaol yn rhoi lloches i’r rhai na ellir eu dysgu, am ba reswm bynnag, mewn ysgol. Gwaetha’r modd, ymddengys bod y Gweinidog yn credu bod pob disgybl yn gallu aros yn yr ysgol a chael ei ddysgu yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Camsyniad gan y Llywodraeth yw hwnnw. Nid yw’n wynebu’r realiti y mae ysgolion yn ei wynebu bob dydd.

I strongly believe that protecting our school professionals and pupils is a duty that has been placed firmly on the shoulders of headteachers and governors. It is their duty and, therefore, we should let them proceed without Government interference. The introduction of exclusion targets to reduce permanent exclusions by a third is a clear example of how the Government feels the need to interfere on a daily basis That provides a presumption against permanent exclusions where a school may have taken that decision.

Credaf yn gryf fod amddiffyn gweithwyr proffesiynol a disgyblion yn ein hysgolion yn ddyletswydd sydd wedi’i gosod yn bendant ar ysgwyddau penaethiaid ysgol a llywodraethwyr. Eu dyletswydd hwy ydyw ac, felly, dylem adael iddynt fynd ymlaen heb ymyrraeth gan Lywodraeth. Mae cyflwyno targedau ar gyfer gwahardd i leihau nifer y gwaharddiadau parhaol o un rhan o dair yn enghraifft amlwg o’r angen y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei deimlo i ymyrryd bob dydd. Mae hynny’n codi rhagdybiaeth yn erbyn gwaharddiadau parhaol lle y gallai ysgol fod wedi gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw.

By confusing constructive reform with interference, the Government’s failure has gone beyond discipline in schools. A modern Wales should let schools deliver and be the architects of their own fortune. They should be the agents of change in their own schools and not pawns of Government Ministers. A school knows what its priorities are and how the workload needs to be managed. However, the recent agreement on workload, supported by the Minister, will direct money according to the wishes of local education authorities. While not all schools face enormous administrative burdens they face other burdens, which they find difficult to deal with daily, such as difficulties in providing special educational needs assistance, curriculum support and key skills.

Drwy gymysgu rhwng diwygio adeiladol ac ymyrraeth, mae methiant y Llywodraeth wedi mynd y tu hwnt i ddisgyblaeth mewn ysgolion. Dylai Cymru fodern adael i ysgolion fynd â’r maen i’r wal a llunio eu ffawd eu hunain. Dylent fod yn gyfryngau i newid yn eu hysgolion eu hunain ac nid yn deganau yn nwylo Gweinidogion llywodraeth. Gŵyr ysgol beth yw ei blaenoriaethau a sut y dylid rheoli’r llwyth gwaith. Fodd bynnag, bydd y cytundeb diweddar ar lwyth gwaith, a gefnogwyd gan y Gweinidog, yn cyfeirio arian yn unol â dymuniadau awdurdodau addysg lleol. Er nad yw pob ysgol yn wynebu beichiau gweinyddol anferth, maent i gyd yn wynebu beichiau eraill, y maent yn ei chael yn anodd ymdrin â hwy bob dydd, fel anawsterau wrth ddarparu cymorth ar gyfer anghenion addysgol arbennig, cynnal y cwricwlwm a sgiliau allweddol.

If the Government wishes to pursue the line in the Education Act 2002, then schools will be allowed to sit on a variety of budget fora with the local education authorities. That will be an enormous bureaucratic nightmare and another way in which the Government will interfere in the daily running of our schools. We will be forcing school headteachers to meet regularly with LEAs to discuss budget priorities and how much money they need. Schools already know what their priorities are and how much money they need. They could well do without that bureaucratic nightmare. However, if the Government wishes to alleviate the burden through the new package that has been announced, then a package of ring-fenced funding should be offered to all schools in order to determine how those burdens should be tackled.

Os yw’r Llywodraeth yn dymuno glynu wrth y polisi yn y Ddeddf Addysg 2002, caniateir i ysgolion eistedd ar amryw o fforymau cyllideb gyda’r awdurdodau addysg lleol. Bydd hynny’n hunllef fiwrocrataidd anferth ac yn fodd arall i’r Llywodraeth ymyrryd yn y gwaith o redeg ein hysgolion o ddydd i ddydd. Byddwn yn gorfodi penaethiaid ysgol i gwrdd yn rheolaidd ag AALl i drafod blaenoriaethau cyllideb a pha faint o arian y mae arnynt ei angen. Mae ysgolion yn gwybod eisoes beth yw eu blaenoriaethau a pha faint o arian y mae arnynt ei angen. Byddai’n dda ganddynt fod heb yr hunllef fiwrocrataidd honno. Fodd bynnag, os yw’r Llywodraeth yn dymuno lliniaru’r baich drwy’r pecyn newydd a gyhoeddwyd, dylid cynnig pecyn o gyllid wedi’i bridiannu i’r holl ysgolion er mwyn penderfynu sut y dylid ymdrin â’r beichiau hynny.

If we are serious about alleviating all burdens, regardless of what they are, it is the schools that have the ability and know-how to ensure that those burdens are tackled. However, this Government believes in the rather cosy term of ‘partnership’. The partnership between the Government and LEAs is used to justify the approach whereby local government determines the priorities and schools feel excluded. That model of governance needs to be challenged because it is not working. It needs to be reformed, in the same way as the relationship between LEAs and schools in England.

Os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch lliniaru’r holl feichiau, beth bynnag ydynt, gan yr ysgolion y mae’r gallu a’r medr i fynd i’r afael â’r beichiau hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn credu yn y gair cysurus braidd o ‘bartneriaeth’. Defnyddir y bartneriaeth rhwng y Llywodraeth ac AALl i gyfiawnhau dull o weithredu sy’n golygu mai llywodraeth leol sy’n pennu’r blaenoriaethau a bod ysgolion yn teimlo eu bod wedi’u hallgáu. Rhaid herio’r model llywodraethu hwnnw am nad yw’n gweithio. Mae angen ei ddiwygio, yn yr un modd â’r berthynas rhwng AALl ac ysgolion yn Lloegr.

Developing schools that are flexible and innovative requires secure funding. A change in the relationship between LEAs and schools should include ring-fenced funding, as provided for in the Education Act 2002. Ring-fenced budgets, which allow for transparency and certainty, based on a three-year funding cycle could give governing bodies and headteachers the ability to plan more effectively. Teaching unions and schools have been crying out for that. However, the Minister refuses to listen because she fears upsetting the Welsh Local Government Association. Tying the WAG into a continuous partnership with local government allows local authorities to dampen any form of criticism when they review how schools are funded. We saw that during the funding review in Cardiff. The Minister has refused to offer any criticism because the Government feels that it is not its responsibility. It wants to allow local government to determine that. That is not an offer of support for schools, which require 100 per cent support from the Government for their work. Local authorities should be transferring the maximum in delegated budgets, which is not currently happening.

Er mwyn datblygu ysgolion sy’n hyblyg ac yn arloesol, rhaid wrth gyllid sicr. Dylai newid yn y berthynas rhwng AALl ac ysgolion gynnwys cyllid a bridiannwyd, fel y darperir yn y Ddeddf Addysg 2002. Byddai cyllidebau a bridiannwyd, sy’n caniatáu tryloywder a sicrwydd, ar sail cylch cyllido tair blynedd, yn fodd i alluogi cyrff llywodraethu a phenaethiaid ysgol i gynllunio’n fwy effeithiol. Mae undebau dysgu ac ysgolion wedi bod yn galw am hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Gweinidog yn gwrthod gwrando am fod arni ofn tramgwyddo Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Mae clymu Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wrth bartneriaeth barhaus â llywodraeth leol yn caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol bylu unrhyw fath o feirniadaeth pan ydynt yn adolygu’r dull o gyllido ysgolion. Gwelsom hynny yn ystod yr adolygiad o gyllid yng Nghaerdydd. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi gwrthod cynnig unrhyw feirniadaeth am fod y Llywodraeth yn teimlo nad yw’n gyfrifoldeb iddi hi. Mae am ganiatáu i lywodraeth leol benderfynu ar hynny. Nid yw hynny’n gynnig o gymorth i ysgolion, y mae arnynt angen cefnogaeth lwyr gan y Llywodraeth i gyflawni eu gwaith. Dylai awdurdodau lleol drosglwyddo’r symiau mwyaf posibl ar ffurf cyllidebau dirprwyedig, ac nid yw hynny’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.

If financial flexibility was given to schools, we could allow them to deliver a more flexible curriculum according to their priorities and local concerns. Schools could start to specialise in subjects and become beacons of excellence in particular subject areas. Charles Clarke is a huge supporter of developing specialist schools in England. Tony Blair has been quoted as saying that reform is not the enemy of social justice, but the route to it. If the Labour Assembly Government is so fond of social justice, then it could provide for specialist schools, allow schools to develop specialisms in particular subjects and bring in the real excellence that we need in the education system.

Pe rhoddid hyblygrwydd ariannol i ysgolion, gallem ganiatáu iddynt weithredu cwricwlwm mwy hyblyg yn unol â’u blaenoriaethau a’r hyn sydd o bwys ganddynt yn lleol. Gallai ysgolion ddechrau arbenigo mewn pynciau a dod yn batrymau o ragoriaeth mewn meysydd pwnc penodol. Mae Charles Clark yn gefnogwr mawr i ddatblygu ysgolion arbenigol yn Lloegr. Cofnodir bod Tony Blair wedi dweud nad gelyn i gyfiawnder cymdeithasol yw diwygio, ond llwybr ato. Os yw’r Llywodraeth Cynulliad Lafur mor hoff o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol, gallai ddarparu ar gyfer ysgolion arbenigol, caniatáu i ysgolion ddatblygu arbenigaethau mewn pynciau penodol a chyflwyno’r rhagoriaeth wirioneddol y mae arnom ei hangen yn y system addysg.

This Government lacks ambition and imagination. It boasts big increases in spending, but it is unable to demonstrate how that has been translated into real investment. The Minister will no doubt crow later on that budgets are going up, up and away. However, for some reason, money does not seem to sit in school delegated budgets. Schools may see budget increase, if they are lucky, of some 5 per cent. However, the Minister will no doubt say later on how much the education budget will increase in the next three years—by some 30 per cent, I suspect. If that is the case, why do schools not see that money in their delegated budgets? It either disappears into local authorities, or it disappears into the many schemes and pots that the Government from time to time comes up with. The Government will come up with a scheme and an initiative for tackling this and that problem, and that will require bureaucrats and funding. Money readily disappears into a variety of pots and schemes for which schools find it difficult to bid, where bidding rounds are complex, the criteria are strict and they feel that there is no opportunity for them to receive the money to do the job. Minister, were we to ensure that money was ring-fenced and that more money was put into mainstream budgets and less into individual schemes that may change from Minister to Minister and from one year to the next, then schools would have the opportunity to spend that money according to their priorities.

Nid oes gan y Llywodraeth hon nac uchelgais na dychymyg. Mae’n ymffrostio mewn cynnydd mawr mewn gwariant, ond ni all ddangos sut y trowyd hynny’n fuddsoddiad go-iawn. Mae’r Gweinidog yn siŵr o ymffrostio’n ddiweddarach bod cyllidebau’n codi’n uwch ac yn uwch. Er hynny, am ryw reswm, nid ymddengys bod arian yn sefyll yng nghyllidebau dirprwyedig ysgolion. Gall ysgolion weld cynnydd yn eu cyllideb, os ydynt yn ffodus, o ryw 5 y cant. Fodd bynnag, mae’n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn dweud yn ddiweddarach o faint y bydd y gyllideb addysg yn cynyddu yn y tair blynedd nesaf—o ryw 30 y cant, yr wyf yn amau. Os felly y mae, pam nad yw ysgolion yn gweld yr arian hwnnw yn eu cyllidebau dirprwyedig? Mae un ai’n diflannu yn yr awdurdodau lleol, neu mae’n diflannu yn y nifer fawr o gynlluniau a photiau sy’n dod i feddwl y Llywodraeth o bryd i’w gilydd. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn meddwl am gynllun a menter i fynd i’r afael â’r naill broblem a’r llall, a bydd hynny’n galw am fiwrocratiaid a chyllid. Mae arian yn diflannu’n rhwydd i amryw o botiau a chynlluniau y mae’r ysgolion yn ei chael yn anodd ymgeisio iddynt, lle y mae’r cylchoedd ymgeisio’n gymhleth a’r meini prawf yn gaeth a theimlant nad oes cyfle iddynt dderbyn yr arian i wneud y gwaith. Weinidog, pe byddem yn sicrhau bod yr arian hwnnw wedi’i bridiannu a bod rhagor o arian yn cael ei roi mewn cyllidebau prif ffrwd a llai mewn cynlluniau unigol a allai newid o’r naill Weinidog i’r llall ac o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, byddai cyfle gan ysgolion i wario’r arian hwnnw yn unol â’u blaenoriaethau.

Finally, the last three and a half years have achieved a few bits and pieces, but only that: bits and pieces. We have not brought in the real reform necessary for schools to work effectively in Wales. We have not brought in the necessary support and assistance for headteachers who find it difficult to run their schools because of constant interference. We should take power, authority, responsibility and financial control away from the Assembly and local authorities and devolve it to schools.

Yn olaf, cyflawnwyd ychydig o fân bethau yn y tair blynedd a hanner diwethaf, ond dim mwy na hynny: mân bethau. Nid ydym wedi cyflwyno’r diwygio go-iawn sydd ei angen i ysgolion weithio’n effeithiol yng Nghymru. Nid ydym wedi cyflwyno’r cymorth a’r gefnogaeth sy’n angenrheidiol ar gyfer penaethiaid ysgol sy’n ei chael yn anodd rhedeg eu hysgolion oherwydd ymyrryd cyson. Dylem gymryd grym, awdurdod, cyfrifoldeb a rheolaeth ariannol oddi wrth y Cynulliad ac awdurdodau lleol a’u datganoli i ysgolion.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 85

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I propose amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete everything after ‘the National Assembly’ and replace with:

Cynigiaf gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ ac yn ei le rhoi:

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 85

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

Schools already have considerable and extensive powers and responsibilities that are exercised by governing bodies and headteachers. Throughout Wales, this is done in effective partnerships between local education authorities and schools. It is undoubtedly delivering improved standards and better education for our children. We constantly have the evidence for that in the statistics provided. There are many examples in all constituencies of this effective partnership. That includes Newport East, where almost all the schools have achieved quality marks, for example, for high standards in education. There is also a widely acknowledged reading recovery scheme to enhance literacy, that works well. It identifies pupils with problems early on and provides specialist training for teachers and it has achieved indisputable, widely recognised results. Those are just two examples of local education authorities achieving local, authority-wide schemes that enable schools to implement those strategies with impressive results. A local education authority with knowledge of local circumstances—and the resources to develop an overview with those local circumstances in mind—can be effective in forging partnerships with schools and making them work on the ground.

Mae ysgolion eisoes yn meddu ar bwerau a chyfrifoldebau helaeth a sylweddol a arferir gan gyrff llywodraethu a phenaethiaid ysgol. Ledled Cymru, gwneir hynny mewn partneriaethau effeithiol rhwng awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion. Nid oes dwywaith nad yw hynny’n codi safonau ac yn sicrhau addysg well i’n plant. Cawn dystiolaeth i hynny’n gyson yn yr ystadegau a ddarperir. Mae enghreifftiau lawer ym mhob etholaeth o’r bartneriaeth effeithiol hon. Mae hynny’n cynnwys Dwyrain Casnewydd, lle y mae bron bob ysgol wedi sicrhau nodau ansawdd, er enghraifft, am safonau uchel mewn addysg. Ceir cynllun adfer darllen a gydnabyddir gan lawer i hybu llythrennedd, ac mae hwnnw’n gweithio’n dda. Mae’n canfod disgyblion sydd â phroblemau’n gynnar ac yn darparu hyfforddiant arbenigol ar gyfer athrawon ac mae wedi sicrhau canlyniadau diamheuol a gydnabyddir yn eang. Dyna ddwy enghraifft yn unig o awdurdodau addysg lleol sy’n rhoi cynlluniau lleol ar waith ledled yr awdurdod i weithredu’r strategaethau hynny, ac mae’r canlyniadau’n drawiadol. Mae awdurdod addysg lleol a chanddo wybodaeth am amgylchiadau lleol—a’r adnoddau i ddatblygu trosolwg gan gadw’r amgylchiadau lleol hynny mewn cof—yn gallu llwyddo i ffurfio partneriaethau ag ysgolion a’u rhoi ar waith ar lawr gwlad.

There is the proven record of this system of partnership between local authorities and schools delivering. What is the proposed alternative? It is little more than outdated Tory dogma that is continually rejected at the ballot box and fails to recognise the value of such partnerships, risking the potential for future success. It is a dogma that seeks greater isolation for schools in conducting their affairs rather than enjoying the advantages of a wider approach.

Mae record i brofi bod y system hon o bartneriaeth rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion yn mynd â’r maen i’r wal. Beth yw’r dewis arall a gynigir? Nid yw’n fawr mwy na dogma Dorïaidd hen-ffasiwn a wrthodir yn barhaus yn y blwch pleidleisio ac sy’n methu â chydnabod gwerth partneriaethau o’r fath, gan beryglu’r posibilrwydd o lwyddiant yn y dyfodol. Mae’n ddogma sy’n ceisio mwy o arwahanrwydd i ysgolion wrth reoli eu busnes yn hytrach na’u galluogi i fwynhau manteision dull gweithredu ehangach.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 86

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

You have just severely attacked your own party’s Westminster policies. Your party at Westminster pursues exactly the sort of policy that I suggest; that is, to allow schools greater autonomy and greater freedom. I do not want to sound like a Blairite, but Mr Blair has been doing just what you attacked.

Yr ydych newydd ymosod yn llym ar bolisïau’ch plaid eich hun yn San Steffan. Mae’ch plaid yn San Steffan yn dilyn yr union fath o bolisi â’r un yr wyf fi’n ei awgrymu; hynny yw, caniatáu mwy o ymreolaeth a rhyddid i ysgolion. Nid wyf am swnio fel petawn yn Blairydd, ond mae Mr Blair wedi bod yn gwneud yr union beth yr ydych chi wedi ymosod arno.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 86

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I do not accept that. I described the approach of previous Conservative Governments, and not of any Labour administration. We are taking forward a distinctive agenda in Wales, of which I am proud.

Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny. Yr oeddwn yn disgrifio dull gweithredu Llywodraethau Ceidwadol blaenorol, ac nid unrhyw weinyddiaeth Lafur. Yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen ag agenda neilltuol yng Nghymru, yr wyf yn falch ohoni.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 86

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

Lorraine Barrett a gododd—

Lorraine Barrett rose—

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 86

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I will give way to Lorraine Barrett.

Gwnaf ildio i Lorraine Barrett.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 86

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

Do you agree that it is the Labour Government in Westminster that has given Wales the opportunity to decide these issues for itself? What England wants to do is fine, but we make up our own mind about what we do in Wales.

A ydych yn cytuno mai’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a roddodd gyfle i Gymru benderfynu ar y materion hyn drosti’i hun? Mae’r hyn y mae Lloegr am ei wneud yn iawn, ond yr ydym yn penderfynu drosom ein hun beth yr ydym yn ei wneud yng Nghymru.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 86

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I agree with that well-made point, especially as the Conservatives still fail to recognise what devolution is about. What is Tory dogma about? We have heard Jonathan Morgan’s contribution, but what is their record? What is their traditional and their present approach? It is championing private education, preserving the class system, and continuing the tremendous waste of human potential in our society, paying no regard to real need, and seeking to preserve, and often enhance, the pre-existing advantages of the most privileged sections of our society. What do they hanker after regarding education? It is a return to the grammar school system, or something approaching that. That system labelled children as failures at the age of 11. That sense of being labelled a failure, and that sense of injustice, stuck with people, and sticks with them, through their lives, because the system did not give them a fair chance or adequate opportunities. That iniquitous system is the one that Conservatives dogma would seek to return to.

Cytunaf â’r pwynt effeithiol hwnnw, yn enwedig gan fod y Ceidwadwyr yn dal i fethu â chydnabod diben datganoli. Beth yw diben dogma Dorïaidd? Clywsom gyfraniad Jonathan Morgan, ond beth yw eu record? Beth yw eu hymagwedd draddodiadol a’u hymagwedd bresennol? Cefnogi addysg breifat yw hynny, gan gadw’r system ddosbarth, a pharhau â’r gwastraff aruthrol o botensial dynol yn ein cymdeithas, heb roi unrhyw sylw i wir angen, a cheisio cadw, a hyrwyddo’n aml, y manteision sydd gan y rhannau mwyaf breintiedig o’n cymdeithas. Beth yw eu dyhead mewn cysylltiad ag addysg? Maent am fynd yn ôl at y system ysgolion gramadeg, neu rywbeth tebyg i hynny. Yr oedd y system honno’n labelu plant yn fethiannau yn 11 oed. Yr oedd yr ymdeimlad hwnnw o fod wedi’u labelu’n fethiant, a’r ymdeimlad hwnnw o anghyfiawnder, yn glynu wrth bobl, ac mae’n gwneud o hyd, ar hyd eu hoes, am nad oedd y system yn rhoi cyfle teg neu ddigonol iddynt. Y system anghyfiawn honno yw’r un y byddai dogma’r Ceidwadwyr yn ceisio mynd yn ôl ati.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 87

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

You would see, if you studied the motion, John, that it has nothing to do with private education. I am proud that the last four Conservative Party leaders have all attended state schools, and I am proud that most of my group in the Assembly attended state schools. I advise you not to proceed too far with your attack on private education, as the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning attended Malvern Girls’ College.

Gwelech, pe byddech yn astudio’r cynnig, John, nad oes a wnelo ef ddim ag addysg breifat. Yr wyf yn falch bod pedwar arweinydd diwethaf y Blaid Geidwadol wedi derbyn eu haddysg mewn ysgolion gwladol, ac yr wyf yn falch bod y rhan fwyaf o’m grŵp yn y Cynulliad wedi derbyn eu haddysg mewn ysgolion gwladol. Fe’ch cynghoraf i beidio â mynd yn rhy bell â’ch ymosodiad ar addysg breifat, gan fod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wedi derbyn ei haddysg yng Ngholeg Merched Malvern.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 87

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

You should not introduce such irrelevant and personal issues to the debate. People should be judged on their record and their achievement. As far as that is concerned, our Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning is doing a good job.

Ni ddylech ddod â materion mor amherthnasol a phersonol i’r ddadl. Dylid barnu pobl yn ôl eu record a’u cyflawniad. Yn y cyswllt hwnnw, mae ein Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gwneud gwaith da.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 87

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 87

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I do not have time. One further example of Tory dogma is on faith schools. We all know, in the present circumstances, the dangers of segregation and systems that do not further tolerance, empathy and greater understanding, and yet the Conservatives want to extend the faith schools system. We in Wales rightly take a different view of that.

Un enghraifft bellach o ddogma Dorïaidd yw honno sy’n ymwneud ag ysgolion crefyddol. Yr ydym oll yn gwybod, o dan yr amgylchiadau presennol, am y perygl o wahanu a systemau nad ydynt yn hyrwyddo goddefgarwch, empathi a gwell dealltwriaeth, ac eto mae’r Ceidwadwyr am ehangu’r system ysgolion crefyddol. Mae’n briodol bod gennym farn wahanol am hynny yng Nghymru.

To conclude, the people of Wales know the Labour movement’s values. They know that we champion high-quality education for all—they have shown that time and again in the ballot box—and we will continue to pursue and enhance partnership between local education authorities and schools in Wales.

I gloi, gŵyr pobl Cymru am werthoedd y mudiad Llafur. Gwyddant ein bod o blaid addysg o ansawdd da i bawb—maent wedi dangos hynny dro ar ôl tro yn y blwch pleidleisio—a byddwn yn parhau i geisio ac i hybu partneriaethau rhwng awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion yng Nghymru.

David Davies spoken in English p. 88

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I would not normally speak from the lectern, as I am not proposing this debate, but there are so few Labour Members in the Chamber that I want to be able to catch the eye of the few that are left, who take an interest in education. This is the party that gave us ‘education, education, education.’ However, where are the Labour Members? They are in the neuadd swigging coffee, not in the least bit interested in the education of future generations of people in Wales.

Ni fyddwn yn siarad o’r ddarllenfa fel arfer, gan nad myfi sy’n cynnig y ddadl hon, ond mae cyn lleied o Aelodau Llafur yn y Siambr fel fy mod am allu dal sylw’r ychydig sy’n weddill, sy’n ymddiddori mewn addysg. Hon yw’r blaid a roddodd ‘addysg, addysg, addysg’ i ni. Serch hynny, ym mhle y mae’r Aelodau Llafur? Maent yn y neuadd yn llyncu coffi, heb y diddordeb lleiaf yn addysg cenedlaethau’r dyfodol yng Nghymru.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 88

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

The reason that they are not here is because they cannot bear to listen to the codswallop that is coming out of your mouth.

Y rheswm nad ydynt yma yw na allant ddioddef gwrando ar y lol yr ydych yn ei siarad.

David Davies spoken in English p. 88

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

They cannot bear to listen to the truth, which is that the Labour Party has failed the people and the children of Wales. It is fundamentally obscene that, at the start of the twenty-first century, we still have an education system that prevents intelligent students from deprived backgrounds from reaching their full potential after so many years of socialism. One might have thought that a Labour administration would want to do something to rectify this situation. Yet, in every respect, it makes it worse. I loathe the hypocrisy of this political party.

Ni allant ddioddef gwrando ar y gwir, sef bod y Blaid Lafur wedi siomi pobl a phlant Cymru. Mae’n gwbl warthus bod gennym system addysg, ar ddechrau’r unfed ganrif ar hugain, sy’n dal i rwystro myfyrwyr deallus o gefndiroedd difreintiedig rhag cyflawni eu holl botensial ar ôl cynifer o flynyddoedd o sosialaeth. Gallai rhywun feddwl y byddai gweinyddiaeth Lafur am wneud rhywbeth i gywiro’r sefyllfa hon. Ac eto, mae’n gwaethygu pob agwedd arni. Mae’n gas gennyf ragrith y blaid wleidyddol hon.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 88

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

David Davies spoken in English p. 88

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I will give way in a minute but first I want to tell you why I loathe the hypocrisy of your colleagues, John. You continue, in the face of all reason, to pretend that the comprehensive principle—

Ildiaf mewn munud ond yn gyntaf yr wyf am ddweud wrthych pam y mae’n gas gennyf ragrith eich cyd-aelodau, John. Yr ydych yn dal i gymryd arnoch, yn wyneb pob rheswm, fod egwyddor addysg gyfun—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Order. You have gone too far, David. Colleagues are not hypocrites. I would be grateful if you withdrew that comment.

Trefn. Aethoch yn rhy bell, David. Nid yw cyd-Aelodau’n rhagrithwyr. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddech yn tynnu’n ôl y sylw hwnnw.

David Davies spoken in English p. 89

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I withdraw that comment. However, I fail to understand the inconsistency of the Labour Party. I find it impossible to comprehend how a party that claims to stand up for working people is doing all it can to make their educational system worse. The comprehensive system has been a failure. We have heard that from the most senior Labour politicians, from none other than David Blunkett, and from Alastair Campbell, who seems to be second-in-command in the Government despite the fact that he has never been elected to anything. The same Labour people who say that the comprehensive system still works make certain that they live in the right catchment areas so that their children can attend the best comprehensives, or even throw all their principles to the wind and send their children to an independent school, although they denied that option to the gifted poor when they scrapped the assisted places scheme.

Tynnaf yn ôl y sylw hwnnw. Er hynny, ni allaf ddeall anghysondeb y Blaid Lafur. Fe’i caf yn amhosibl deall sut y mae plaid sy’n honni ei bod yn sefyll dros weithwyr yn gwneud popeth yn ei gallu i waethygu eu system addysg. Bu’r system addysg gyfun yn fethiant. Clywsom hynny gan y gwleidyddion Llafur uchaf, gan neb llai na David Blunkett, a chan Alastair Campbell, yr ymddengys ei fod ail o ran awdurdod yn y Llywodraeth er nad etholwyd ef i ddim byd erioed. Yr un bobl Lafur a ddywed fod y system addysg gyfun yn dal i weithio sy’n sicrhau eu bod yn byw yn y dalgylchoedd iawn fel bod eu plant yn gallu derbyn eu haddysg yn yr ysgolion cyfun gorau, neu’n taflu eu hegwyddorion hyd yn oed ac yn anfon eu plant i ysgol annibynnol, er iddynt wrthod y dewis hwnnw i dlodion dawnus pan wnaethant ddiddymu’r cynllun cymorth lleoedd.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 89

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

You mention tackling disadvantage in education. What did the Conservatives do, during their 18 long years in government, to tackle that?

Yr ydych yn sôn am fynd i’r afael ag anfantais mewn addysg. Beth a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr, yn ystod eu 18 mlynedd hir mewn grym, i ymdrin â hynny?

David Davies spoken in English p. 89

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

For a start they ensured that those who were gifted and had ability had the opportunity to access some of the best schools in the country. They ensured that a system, which in 1979 allowed one in eight people to go to university, was improved so that one in three went to university. However, they did not want to take it so far that people who should not have been going to university were doing so. They did a great deal, and you are reversing that.

I ddechrau gwnaethant sicrhau bod y rhai a oedd â’r dawn a’r gallu yn cael cyfle i fynd i rai o’r ysgolion gorau yn y wlad. Gwnaethant sicrhau bod gwelliant mewn system a oedd yn caniatáu i un ym mhob wyth fynd i brifysgol yn 1979, fel bod un ym mhob tri yn mynd i brifysgol. Fodd bynnag, nid aethant mor bell fel bod rhai na ddylent fynd i brifysgol yn gwneud felly. Gwnaethant lawer iawn, ac yr ydych chi’n dad-wneud hynny.

However, what should we expect from you? Your colleagues want to send newly-qualified graduates out into the world with debts of up to £21,000, contrary to the promises that you made when you were seeking votes. You must recognise the truth—the comprehensive system has been a failure, and those who have suffered most as a result have been the intelligent and gifted poor. Our motion is about addressing that. We want to ensure that those who have abilities, whether they be academic, musical, sporting or practical, are put into an environment that allows those abilities to be developed, instead of those children being left to flounder in classrooms full of disruptive pupils who hold them back. Labour’s answer today, just as it has always been, is to level everything down to the lowest possible common denominator. That is the real dogma, John Griffiths—the chip-on-your-shoulder dogma of trying to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. That will never be the Conservative Party way. Our policy is to start levelling up, freeing schools from the burden of state control and the costly interference of local education authorities, and allowing them to thrive and prosper.

Fodd bynnag, beth y dylem ei ddisgwyl gennych? Mae’ch cyd-aelodau am yrru graddedigion newydd ymgymhwyso i’r byd â dyledion o hyd at £21,000, yn groes i’r addewidion a wnaethoch pan oeddech yn ceisio pleidleisiau. Rhaid ichi gydnabod y gwir—bu’r system addysg gyfun yn fethiant, a’r rhai a ddioddefodd fwyaf o ganlyniad yw tlodion deallus a galluog. Pwrpas ein cynnig yw ymdrin â hynny. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod y rhai a chanddynt alluoedd, boed hynny’n academaidd, yn gerddorol, yn ymarferol neu mewn chwaraeon, yn cael eu rhoi mewn amgylchedd sy’n caniatáu datblygu’r galluoedd hynny, yn hytrach na gadael y plant hynny i ymbalfalu mewn dosbarthiadau llawn disgyblion trafferthus sy’n eu dal yn ôl. Ateb Llafur heddiw, fel y bu erioed, yw gostwng popeth i’r lefel gyffredin isaf. Dyna’r wir ddogma, John Griffiths—y ddogma dal dig o geisio gostwng popeth i’r lefel gyffredin isaf. Ni wnaiff y Blaid Geidwadol hynny byth. Ein polisi ni yw dechrau codi’r lefel, rhyddhau ysgolion oddi wrth faich rheolaeth wladol ac ymyrraeth gostus awdurdodau addysg lleol, a chaniatáu iddynt ffynnu a llwyddo.

The independent sector, which you so decry, is a success. It is successful, not because it receives more money—although that is a factor—but mainly because it is able to spend the majority of its budget on teachers, textbooks and on educating its pupils, instead of paying for endless armies of bureaucrats and spending its time completing all the plans and paperwork that state sector schools must complete. The ethos of independent schools is different. The teachers want their pupils to succeed. Independent schools do not answer to local education authorities, or to the National Assembly for Wales, but directly to the parents, who make damn sure that those schools are good and, if they are not, they take their children away and the school is closed down. That is why you get good education from the independent sector. We do not want an independent sector for the few; for the daughters and sons of Labour politicians. We want that ethos throughout the state system, so that those from the poorest backgrounds can access that standard of education. That is quite feasible.

Mae’r sector annibynnol, yr ydych yn ei fychanu gymaint, yn llwyddiant. Mae’n llwyddo, nid am ei fod yn derbyn mwy o arian—er bod hynny’n ffactor—ond yn bennaf am ei fod yn gallu gwario’r rhan fwyaf o’i gyllideb ar athrawon, gwerslyfrau ac ar addysgu ei ddisgyblion, yn hytrach na thalu am fyddinoedd diddiwedd o fiwrocratiaid a threulio ei amser yn cwblhau’r holl gynlluniau a gwaith papur y mae’n rhaid i ysgolion y sector gwladol eu cwblhau. Mae ethos ysgolion annibynnol yn wahanol. Mae’r athrawon am i’w disgyblion lwyddo. Nid yw ysgolion annibynnol yn atebol i awdurdodau addysg lleol, neu i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, ond yn uniongyrchol i’r rhieni, sy’n sicrhau bod yr ysgolion hynny’n dda ac, os nad ydynt, yn mynd â’u plant oddi yno a chaiff yr ysgol ei chau. Dyna pam y cewch addysg dda gan y sector annibynnol. Nid ydym am gael sector annibynnol i’r ychydig; i ferched a meibion gwleidyddion Llafur. Yr ydym am gael yr ethos honno yn y system wladol drwyddi draw, fel bod y rhai o’r cefndiroedd tlotaf yn gallu cael safon addysg o’r fath. Mae hynny’n gwbl ymarferol.

Devolving power back to schools is a good starting point, but the ultimate goal must be an education system that gives the bright sixth former from the Gurnos estate as much chance of attending an Oxbridge university as the old Etonian. That will not be achieved by the Labour Party’s fiddling exams or establishing admission tsars who will let somebody in because they have accrued a few brownie points for coming from a slightly more working-class background, as seems to be current policy.

Mae datganoli grym yn ôl i ysgolion yn fan cychwyn da, ond y nod yn y pen draw yw system addysg sy’n rhoi’r un cyfle i ddisgybl dosbarth chwech galluog o ystâd Gurnos gael mynd i brifysgolion Rhydychen a Chaergrawnt ag i un o gyn-ddisgyblion Ysgol Eton. Ni chyflawnir hynny drwy i’r Blaid Lafur ffidlo arholiadau neu benodi tsariaid derbyn myfyrwyr a fydd yn gadael i rywun gael mynediad am eu bod wedi cael ychydig o sêr aur am eu bod yn dod o gefndir sydd ychydig yn fwy dosbarth gweithiol, sef y polisi a geir ar hyn o bryd, yn ôl pob golwg.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 91

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch dderbyn ymyriad?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Order. David has had six minutes and there is no time to take further interventions. [Interruption.] Order. I have pressed the red button; no one can hear you, John. David, please finish your speech.

Trefn. Mae David wedi cael chwe munud ac nid oes digon o amser i gymryd rhagor o ymyriadau. [Torri ar draws.] Trefn. Yr wyf wedi pwyso’r botwm coch; ni all neb eich clywed, John. David, gorffennwch eich araith, os gwelwch yn dda.

David Davies spoken in English p. 91

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

The motion before you today proposes the beginning of a process that would allow state schools to develop the culture, ethos and standards of the best public schools in our country. I urge the Assembly to support the motion.

Mae’r cynnig ger eich bron heddiw yn cynnig dechrau proses a fyddai’n caniatáu i ysgolion gwladol ddatblygu diwylliant, ethos a safonau’r ysgolion preifat gorau yn ein gwlad. Anogaf y Cynulliad i gefnogi’r cynnig.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 91

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Every time I hear Conservative contributions to Assembly debates on education, my first thought, despite my respect for Jonathan Morgan and his colleagues, is ‘how dare you?’ Their party introduced the narrow, over-prescriptive national curriculum, the pointless, destructive tests, the oppressive inspection regimes and the piles of bureaucracy that have beset and paralysed our education system for years. They began the pattern of underinvestment that has left us with crumbling school buildings and a struggling higher education system. They also introduced corrosive market mechanisms into education by privatising further education colleges and establishing competition between schools. Obviously, Jonathan Morgan and his colleagues in the National Assembly cannot be held personally or directly responsible for that any more than the New Labour regime can, with any credibility, claim credit for the socialist reforms of some of its predecessor administrations. However, it would behove the Conservatives to apologise for past damage before pontificating about future plans.

Bob tro y clywaf gyfraniadau gan Geidwadwyr i ddadleuon yn y Cynulliad ar addysg, yr hyn a ddaw i’m meddwl yn gyntaf, er gwaethaf fy mharch at Jonathan Morgan a’i gyd-aelodau, yw ‘sut y beiddiwch chi?’ Eu plaid hwy a gyflwynodd y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol cul a rhy orchmynnol, y profion dinistriol a dibwrpas, y cyfundrefnau arolygu gormesol a’r pentyrrau o fiwrocratiaeth sy’n plagio ac yn parlysu ein system addysg ers blynyddoedd. Hwy a sefydlodd y patrwm o danfuddsoddi sydd wedi ein gadael ag adeiladau ysgol sy’n dadfeilio a system addysg uwch sydd mewn cyni. Hwy hefyd a gyflwynodd fecanweithiau marchnad difaol mewn addysg drwy breifateiddio colegau addysg bellach a dechrau’r cystadlu rhwng ysgolion. Wrth gwrs, ni ellir dal Jonathan Morgan a’i gyd-aelodau yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn bersonol neu’n uniongyrchol gyfrifol am hynny, yn yr un modd ag nad yw’n gredadwy i’r rheolaeth Llafur Newydd hawlio clod am ddiwygiadau sosialaidd rhai o’r gweinyddiaethau a’i rhagflaenodd. Er hynny, byddai’n weddus i’r Ceidwadwyr ymddiheuro am ddifrod y gorffennol cyn doethinebu ynghylch cynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol.

We believe that schools and teachers need greater freedom and autonomy in certain respects. For example, the national curriculum needs a total overhaul to give teachers and schools much more discretion over what should be taught and how it should be taught. However, I will focus mainly on the financial implications of the motion, which I believe to be divisive and deeply dangerous.

Credwn fod ar ysgolion ac athrawon angen mwy o ryddid ac ymreolaeth mewn rhai agweddau. Er enghraifft, mae angen ailwampio’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yn llwyr i roi llawer mwy o ryddid gweithredu i athrawon ac ysgolion o ran yr hyn y dylid ei ddysgu a’r dull o’i ddysgu. Fodd bynnag, canolbwyntiaf yn bennaf ar oblygiadau ariannol y cynnig, y credaf eu bod yn gynhennus ac yn dra pheryglus.

This motion demonstrates the Conservatives’ fundamental lack of understanding of the reality facing most schools in Wales. It is true that there is a vocal lobby, led mainly by some of the larger secondary schools, calling for direct funding from the Assembly Government for schools. The Assembly Government’s dismal failure to develop, with local government, a consistent and transparent funding system for schools and other local government education services has strengthened that call. However, for every school actively seeking extra financial powers, there are several others struggling to manage their present financial responsibilities. Governor vacancies in secondary schools have risen steadily since 1999 and excessive management burdens are often cited as the main barrier to participation.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn dangos diffyg dealltwriaeth llwyr y Ceidwadwyr o’r realiti sy’n wynebu’r rhan fwyaf o ysgolion yng Nghymru. Mae’n wir bod lobi uchel ei gloch, a arweinir yn bennaf gan rai o’r ysgolion uwchradd mwyaf, sy’n galw am gyllido uniongyrchol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i ysgolion. Mae methiant truenus Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddatblygu, gyda llywodraeth leol, system gyllido gyson a thryloyw ar gyfer ysgolion a gwasanaethau addysg llywodraeth leol eraill wedi cryfhau’r alwad honno. Fodd bynnag, am bob ysgol sy’n mynd ati i geisio pwerau ariannol ychwanegol, mae sawl un arall sy’n ei chael yn anodd cadw trefn ar eu cyfrifoldebau ariannol presennol. Bu cynnydd cyson yn nifer y swyddi llywodraethwyr gwag mewn ysgolion uwchradd ers 1999 a beichiau rheoli gormodol yw’r hyn y cyfeirir ato’n aml fel y prif rwystr i’r rhai sydd am gymryd rhan.

While many schools might welcome greater financial autonomy, many others are desperate for more support and are deeply concerned about balancing the books from month to month and year to year, when their funding depends almost entirely on the vagary of pupil numbers. This is the real school funding issue that needs addressing today. While parental choice remains, because of geography, a polite fiction in many communities across Wales, it is equally true that schools serving poorer areas have been starved of resources as those parents who can afford to do so, remove their children from so-called failing schools. No-one can blame those families for making that choice, but the upshot is that poor schools get poorer and chances and choices for other children are limited and restricted. We must ditch the funding formula that dictates that 75 per cent of school funding must be allocated on a per capita basis, and move to funding schools to serve their catchment areas. Welsh-medium and faith-based schools also serve catchment areas and could also be funded accordingly.

Er y gallai llawer o ysgolion groesawu mwy o ymreolaeth ariannol, mae ar lawer o rai eraill ddirfawr angen mwy o gymorth ac maent yn dra phryderus ynghylch mantoli’r cyfrifon o’r naill fis a’r naill flwyddyn i’r llall, pan fo’u cyllid yn dibynnu’n gyfan gwbl bron ar niferoedd disgyblion amrywiol. Dyma’r gwir fater o bwys ynghylch cyllido ysgolion y dylid ei drafod heddiw. Er bod dewis i rieni’n dal i fod yn gelwydd golau mewn llawer o gymunedau ledled Cymru, oherwydd daearyddiaeth, mae yr un mor wir bod ysgolion sy’n gwasanaethu ardaloedd tlotach wedi’u hamddifadu o adnoddau gan fod y rhieni hynny sy’n gallu fforddio gwneud hynny yn mynd â’u plant o’r ysgolion sy’n methu, fel y’u gelwir. Ni all neb weld bai ar y teuluoedd hynny am ddewis gwneud hynny, ond y canlyniad yw bod ysgolion tlawd yn mynd yn dlotach a bod y cyfleoedd a’r dewisiadau i blant eraill yn brin ac yn gyfyngedig. Rhaid inni daflu’r fformiwla cyllido sy’n mynnu bod rhaid dyrannu 75 y cant o gyllid ysgolion yn ôl y pen, a symud tuag at gyllido ysgolion i wasanaethu eu dalgylchoedd. Mae ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ac ysgolion crefyddol yn gwasanaethu dalgylchoedd hefyd a gellid eu cyllido yn unol â hynny.

The Minister has acknowledged the need for change in this direction and I hope that she will be able to tell us in her contribution to this debate what her timetable is for delivering this change, if she is indeed serious about doing so. Such a change could be made while also depriving local government of its functions with regard to school funding, but I do not believe that the case for that has been made. The element of local democratic influence adds real value to education decision-making. The answer to the concerns about funding through local authorities lies in delivering real financial transparency and, possibly, in setting a minimum national percentage, below which local authorities are not allowed to fall.

Mae’r Gweinidog wedi cydnabod yr angen am newid i’r cyfeiriad hwn a gobeithiaf y bydd yn gallu dweud wrthym yn ei chyfraniad i’r ddadl hon beth yw ei hamserlen i gyflawni’r newid hwn, os yw o ddifrif ynghylch gwneud hynny mewn gwirionedd. Gellid cyflawni newid o’r fath ac amddifadu llywodraeth leol o’i swyddogaethau o ran cyllido ysgolion yr un pryd, ond ni chredaf fod dadl ddilys wedi’i chyflwyno o blaid gwneud hynny. Mae’r elfen o ddylanwad democrataidd lleol yn ychwanegu gwerth gwirioneddol at benderfynu mewn addysg. Mae’r ateb i’r pryderon ynghylch cyllido drwy awdurdodau lleol i’w gael mewn sicrhau tryloywder ariannol gwirioneddol ac, o bosibl, pennu canran genedlaethol isaf, na chaiff awdurdodau lleol fynd yn is na hi.

I turn to the Government’s amendment, which is more self-congratulatory nonsense. I will not pretend that they are as bad as the Conservatives were, but we cannot endorse an approach to funding that has left the competitive market between schools in place and has failed to clear the funding fog, leaving schools suspicious about what percentage of resources they are receiving. We cannot endorse an approach to school funding that leaves schools bidding for bits and pieces of project money for this and that, while their basic need for decent buildings fails to be met. We also cannot endorse an approach to school management that fails to agree with the major teaching union on how to get rid of bureaucratic burdens and on supporting teachers.

Trof at welliant y Llywodraeth, sy’n rhagor o lol hunanglodforus. Ni wnaf gymryd arnaf eu bod cynddrwg ag yr oedd y Ceidwadwyr, ond ni allwn gymeradwyo ymagwedd at gyllido sydd wedi gadael y farchnad gystadleuol rhwng ysgolion ac wedi methu â chwalu’r niwl o ran cyllido, gan adael ysgolion i deimlo’n amheus ynghylch canran yr adnoddau y maent yn ei chael. Ni allwn gymeradwyo ymagwedd at gyllido ysgolion sy’n gadael ysgolion i ymgeisio am fân arian prosiect ar gyfer y naill beth a’r llall, tra na ddiwellir eu hangen sylfaenol am adeiladau derbyniol. Ni allwn gymeradwyo ymagwedd at reoli ysgolion sy’n methu â chytuno â’r prif undeb dysgu ar y modd i gael gwared â beichiau biwrocrataidd a chefnogi athrawon.

This Government has failed to undo much of the damage done by the Conservatives. It has tinkered and not transformed. The Government’s approach is to be regretted and not endorsed. It is a mess; but this Conservative approach would only make matters worse by increasing competition and inequality. I urge Members to oppose both the smug amendment and the destructive motion.

Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi methu â dad-wneud llawer o’r difrod a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr. Mae wedi ffidlan ac nid yw wedi trawsnewid. Mae ymagwedd y Llywodraeth yn destun gofid ac ni chymeradwyir hi. Mae’n llanastr; ond ni fyddai’r agwedd hon gan y Ceidwadwyr ond yn gwaethygu pethau drwy gynyddu cystadleuaeth ac anghydraddoldeb. Anogaf Aelodau i wrthwynebu’r gwelliant hunangyfiawn a’r cynnig dinistriol.

William Graham spoken in English p. 94

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

The motion proposes an exact and early delegated budget for local schools. I speak not as a product of the public school system, nor as a chairman of a board of governors of a public school, but as a local education authority member. I also speak on behalf of those secondary school headteachers who are facing their budgetary choices now. In the past year, teaching staff costs have increased by 5.15 per cent, given employer contributions to the superannuation scheme. That should be fully funded by the Assembly Government. The 1 per cent rise in the employers’ national insurance contribution is the sole responsibility of Labour’s Chancellor of the Exchequer. An assumed 3.5 per cent annual pay rise and a shortening of teacher pay spines adds approximately 2 per cent to costs, and the working-through of the changes during the year together represents a total cost of some 12 per cent.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn cynnig cyllideb fanwl a ddirprwyir yn gynnar ar gyfer ysgolion lleol. Nid wyf yn siarad fel un a aeth drwy’r system ysgolion preifat, neu fel cadeirydd bwrdd llywodraethwyr ysgol breifat, ond fel aelod o awdurdod addysg lleol. Siaradaf hefyd ar ran penaethiaid ysgolion uwchradd sy’n wynebu eu dewisiadau cyllidebol yn awr. Yn y flwyddyn a aeth heibio, bu cynnydd o 5.15 y cant yng nghostau staff dysgu, oherwydd cyfraniadau’r cyflogwr i’r cynllun pensiwn. Dylai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gyllido hynny’n llawn. Cyfrifoldeb Canghellor Llafur y Trysorlys yn unig yw’r cynnydd o 1 y cant yng nghyfraniad yswiriant gwladol y cyflogwyr. Mae codiad cyflog blynyddol tybiedig o 3.5 y cant a byrhau graddfeydd tâl athrawon yn ychwanegu tua 2 y cant at y costau, ac mae cyflawni’r newidiadau yn ystod y flwyddyn gyda’i gilydd yn dod i gyfanswm o tua 12 y cant.

The effect of the shortening of the pay spine is both cumulative and drastic. The incremental drift can mean a loss of between £72,000 and more than £250,000 for the average secondary school. That is the amount that it takes to pay the same staff next year on the same basis as this year without the superannuation charge. Some 70 per cent of a school’s budget is spent on teacher salaries. The salaries of non-teaching staff account for approximately 10 per cent of the budget, and those salaries are due to rise by 6 per cent. It is vital that local management of schools becomes effective. If a school has a loss of £140,000, as is anticipated by one of the better comprehensive schools in Newport, that more or less represents a standstill in funding in real terms. Even after cutting back costs, it probably means that at least four or five staff will be lost. The result will be larger classes; fewer opportunities for pupils; less time for pastoral and sporting activities; and less time to co-operate with the LEA and other external agencies.

Mae effaith byrhau’r raddfa tâl yn gynyddol ac yn eithafol. Mae’r symudiad cynyddrannol yn gallu golygu colli rhwng £72,000 a rhagor na £250,000 gan yr ysgol uwchradd arferol. Dyna’r swm y bydd ei angen i dalu’r un staff y flwyddyn nesaf ar yr un sail â’r flwyddyn hon heb y tâl pensiwn. Caiff tua 70 y cant o gyllideb yr ysgol ei wario ar gyflogau athrawon. Cyflogau staff nad ydynt yn dysgu yw tua 10 y cant o’r gyllideb, a disgwylir y bydd y cyflogau hynny’n codi o 6 y cant. Mae’n hollbwysig i reolaeth leol ar ysgolion ddod yn effeithiol. Os oes gan ysgol golled o £140,000, fel y mae un o’r ysgolion cyfun gwell yng Nghasnewydd yn ei ragweld, mae hynny’n golygu sefyll yn stond o ran cyllido mewn gwirionedd. Hyd yn oed ar ôl torri ar gostau, mae’n golygu colli o leiaf bedwar neu bump o staff, yn ôl pob tebyg. Y canlyniad fydd dosbarthiadau mwy; llai o gyfleoedd i ddisgyblion; llai o amser ar gyfer gweithgareddau bugeiliol neu chwaraeon; a llai o amser i gydweithredu â’r awdurdod addysg lleol ac asiantaethau allanol eraill.

Many schemes that have been proposed by LEAs throughout Wales will have to be cut back unless the full, inflation-proof money is made available. A figure has been suggested of some 6.8 per cent, and latterly we have heard higher figures. However, they still come nowhere near the necessary 12 per cent. Some of the schemes mentioned today, such as reading recovery, special educational needs support for non-statemented children, having smaller classes at key stage 3 in order to raise standards, alternative approaches at key stage 4 and a breadth of post-16 opportunities, will either be reduced or not implemented.

Bydd yn rhaid torri ar lawer o gynlluniau a gynigiwyd gan AALl ledled Cymru os na ddarperir yr holl arian sydd ei angen gan ddarparu ar gyfer chwyddiant. Awgrymwyd ffigur o tua 6.8 y cant a chlywsom ffigurau uwch yn ddiweddar. Fodd bynnag, maent yn dal i fod ymhell o’r 12 y cant sydd ei angen. Bydd rhai o’r cynlluniau a grybwyllwyd heddiw, fel adfer darllen, cymorth anghenion addysgol arbennig ar gyfer plant sydd heb ddatganiad, dosbarthiadau llai yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 er mwyn codi safonau, dulliau gweithredu amgen yng nghyfnod allweddol 4 a dewis eang o gyfleoedd ôl-16, un ai’n cael eu lleihau neu eu gadael heb eu gweithredu.

Why has superannuation not been passported through before the shareout, and why has indicative spending not been passported before the shareout? These are important questions for an LEA to be able to answer on to its headteachers. The only way forward is to devolve an exact and early budget to schools to avoid the uncertainties presently experienced by schools throughout Wales.

Pam na ddarparwyd ar gyfer pensiynau cyn rhannu’r arian, a pham na ddarparwyd ar gyfer gwariant dynodol cyn ei rannu? Dyma gwestiynau pwysig y dylai awdurdod addysg lleol allu rhoi ateb yn eu cylch i’w benaethiaid ysgol. Yr unig ffordd ymlaen yw datganoli cyllideb fanwl yn gynnar i ysgolion i osgoi’r ansicrwydd y mae ysgolion ledled Cymru’n ei brofi ar hyn o bryd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 95

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome this debate. Many teachers will be interested in the points that have been raised, and in the Minister’s response to them.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu’r ddadl hon. Bydd llawer o athrawon yn ymddiddori yn y pwyntiau a godwyd, ac yn ymateb y Gweinidog iddynt.

I will address three issues: the progress that has been made by this partnership Government; funding education; and the challenge of making the funding process more transparent.

Ymdriniaf â thri mater: y cynnydd a wnaed gan y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon; cyllido addysg; a’r her o beri i’r broses gyllido fod yn fwy tryloyw.

I remind Members, at the risk of upsetting Helen, that this partnership Government has resulted in stability and credibility. We have abolished key stage 1 tests, re-introduced free school milk at key stage 1, introduced Assembly learning grants, and piloted the Welsh baccalaureate. I note from the White Paper that England is now following us in this. There are 484 extra secondary school teachers and 225 extra primary school teachers. We have a small schools policy that is delivering in Ceredigion, as we heard at the Mid Wales Regional Committee on Friday. There is more money for school buildings.

Yr wyf yn atgoffa Aelodau, gan fentro tramgwyddo Helen, fod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon wedi arwain at sefydlogrwydd a hygrededd. Yr ydym wedi diddymu profion cyfnod allweddol 1, wedi ailgyflwyno llaeth am ddim mewn ysgolion yng nghyfnod allweddol 1, wedi cyflwyno grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad, ac wedi rhagbrofi’r fagloriaeth Gymreig. Sylwaf yn y Papur Gwyn fod Lloegr yn ein dilyn bellach yn hynny o beth. Mae 484 o athrawon ysgol uwchradd ychwanegol a 225 o athrawon ysgol gynradd ychwanegol. Mae gennym bolisi ysgolion bach sy’n cyrraedd y nod yng Ngheredigion, fel y clywsom ym Mhwyllgor Rhanbarth y Canolbarth ar ddydd Gwener. Mae rhagor o arian ar gyfer adeiladau ysgol.

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 95

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Is it not a tragedy that England will have a real baccalaureate while we will have a pretend baccalaureate, which is not a baccalaureate at all?

Onid yw’n drychineb y bydd gan Loegr fagloriaeth go-iawn tra bydd un ffug gennym ni, nad yw’n fagloriaeth o gwbl?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 96

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

That was a ridiculous intervention. You know full well that those who criticised the Welsh baccalaureate did not bid to take part in the process. I will focus on funding and look at the facts.

Yr oedd hwnnw’n ymyriad chwerthinllyd. Gwyddoch yn iawn fod y rhai a feirniadodd y fagloriaeth Gymreig heb ymgeisio i gymryd rhan yn y broses. Canolbwyntiaf ar gyllid ac edrychaf ar y ffeithiau.

The last available figures are for 2001-02. The overall funding in Wales per pupil was £3,134; in England it was £3,177. Excluding London—and there are good reasons for doing so—the figure for England is £3,095. It is fair to exclude London, because there is a greater number of children in London who need extra support, whether in terms of provision of psychologists, or other services. They also need extra teachers. If we consider the figures for the English regions in 2001-02, four spent more money per pupil than we in Wales did. Those regions were inner London, outer London, and the north-west metropolitan and West Midlands metropolitan regions. The 10 other English regions spend less per pupil than is spent in Wales.

Y ffigurau diweddaraf sydd ar gael yw’r rhai ar gyfer 2001-02. Y cyllid cyffredinol yng Nghymru fesul disgybl oedd £3,134; yn Lloegr yr oedd yn £3,177. Ac eithrio Llundain—ac mae rhesymau da dros wneud hynny—y ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr yw £3,095. Mae’n deg peidio â chynnwys Llundain, oherwydd bod nifer fwy o blant yn Llundain sydd ag angen cymorth ychwanegol, boed hynny ar ffurf darpariaeth seicolegwyr, neu wasanaethau eraill. Mae arnynt angen athrawon ychwanegol hefyd. Os ystyriwn y ffigurau ar gyfer rhanbarthau Lloegr yn 2001-02, gwariodd pedwar ohonynt fwy fesul disgybl nag a wnaethom ni yng Nghymru. Y rhanbarthau hynny oedd Llundain fewnol, Llundain allanol, a rhanbarthau dinesig gogledd-orllewin Lloegr a gorllewin canolbarth Lloegr. Mae’r 10 rhanbarth arall yn Lloegr yn gwario llai y pen ar ddisgyblion nag a warir yng Nghymru.

I will examine our authorities and the border authorities in England in greater detail. For example, south Monmouthshire, Newport and Cardiff all spend more money than their neighbour, Gloucestershire, does. Powys spends more per head than Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Herefordshire and Telford and Wrekin unitary authorities. However, in the north the picture is more mixed. The Wirral spends more money than the counties of north east Wales, but Wrexham and Conwy still spend more than Cheshire, although Cheshire spends more than Flintshire and Denbighshire. These figures are available in the National Assembly Library and were published and received by the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee on 12 December 2001. The figures for 2002-03 will be available at the end of February.

Edrychaf yn fanylach ar ein hawdurdodau ni a’r awdurdodau yn Lloegr sydd am y ffin â ni. Er enghraifft, mae de Sir Fynwy, Casnewydd a Chaerdydd i gyd yn gwario mwy o arian na’u cymydog, Swydd Gaerloyw. Mae Powys yn gwario mwy y pen nag y mae awdurdodau unedol Swydd Amwythig, Swydd Gaerwrangon, a Swydd Henffordd a Telford a Dinlle Gwrygon. Fodd bynnag, yn y gogledd ceir darlun mwy cymysg. Mae Cilgwri yn gwario mwy o arian na siroedd y Gogledd-ddwyrain, ond mae Wrecsam a Chonwy yn gwario mwy na Swydd Gaer, er bod Swydd Gaer yn gwario mwy na Sir y Fflint a Sir Ddinbych. Mae’r ffigurau hyn ar gael yn Llyfrgell y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a chawsant eu cyhoeddi a’u cyflwyno i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar 12 Rhagfyr 2001. Bydd y ffigurau ar gyfer 2002-03 ar gael ddiwedd Chwefror.

David Davies spoken in English p. 96

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

Mick, these figures appear to show that more money is spent per pupil in many Welsh areas than in many English areas. That is not the experience of most headteachers with whom you may speak. Therefore, do these figures therefore take into account the special schemes that only operate in England and do not apply in Wales?

Mick, mae’n ymddangos o’r ffigurau hyn fod mwy o arian yn cael ei wario fesul disgybl mewn llawer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru nag mewn llawer o ardaloedd yn Lloegr. Nid dyna brofiad y rhan fwyaf o benaethiaid ysgol y siaredir â hwy. Gan hynny, a yw’r ffigurau hyn yn cynnwys y cynlluniau arbennig nad ydynt ond yn gweithredu yn Lloegr ac sydd heb fod yn berthnasol i Gymru?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 97

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

Overall funding is the issue, David. I am certain that if you were to examine the basis of those figures as they have been presented in our Library, and in Westminster I am sure, you would find that they take into account all funding.

Cyllid cyffredinol yw’r mater dan sylw, David. Yr wyf yn sicr, pe baech yn archwilio sail y ffigurau hynny fel y’u cyflwynwyd yn ein Llyfrgell, ac yn San Steffan yr wyf yn siŵr, y caech eu bod yn cynnwys yr holl gyllid.

The overall picture looks positive, yet many of us know that when we visit schools there is anxiety surrounding funding. That anxiety relates to the annual funding rounds. We need clarity on how we can stabilise the funding issues. A three-year indicative budget is the first step in providing three-year firm budgets to all our schools. The money is available; there is little dispute in Wales on that; rather, the issue in Wales is over knowing where it ends up. When a Welsh headteacher sees his English colleagues—

Mae’r darlun cyffredinol yn ymddangos yn gadarnhaol, ac eto gŵyr llawer ohonom, pan ymwelwn ag ysgolion, fod pryder ynghylch cyllido. Mae’r pryder hwnnw’n ymwneud â’r cylchoedd cyllido blynyddol. Mae arnom angen eglurder o ran y modd y gallwn sefydlogi’r materion cyllido. Cyllideb ddynodol dair blynedd yw’r cam cyntaf tuag at ddarparu cyllidebau pendant tair blynedd ar gyfer ein holl ysgolion. Mae’r arian ar gael; nid oes fawr o anghytundeb yng Nghymru ar hynny; yn hytrach, y mater sydd o bwys yng Nghymru yw gwybod i ble’r aiff yn y diwedd. Pan yw pennaeth ysgol yng Nghymru’n gweld ei gymheiriaid yn Lloegr—

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 97

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

Will the Member give way?

A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 97

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

Your time is almost up, Mick. I might call you next, Alun.

Mae’ch amser bron â dod i ben, Mick. Efallai y galwaf arnoch nesaf, Alun.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 97

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

When a Welsh headteacher, in a border authority, sees his English colleague receive a cheque for, say £60,000, directly from the Government, he needs to know where that money is in a Welsh local authority budget. Currently, Minister, I believe that that is not always clear. Many teachers also believe that. My fear, and that of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, is that direct funding will create sump schools, often in those deprived areas where we are focusing on raising the standard of education. Also, our isolated schools may close.

Pan yw pennaeth ysgol yng Nghymru, yn un o awdurdodau’r gororau, yn gweld un o’i gymheiriaid yn Lloegr yn cael siec am £60,000 dyweder, yn uniongyrchol oddi wrth y Llywodraeth, rhaid iddo gael gwybod ym mhle y mae’r arian hwnnw yng nghyllideb awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Ar hyn o bryd, Weinidog, credaf nad yw hynny bob amser yn glir. Mae llawer o athrawon o’r un farn. Yr ofn sydd gennyf fi, a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, yw y bydd cyllido uniongyrchol yn creu ysgolion swmp, a hynny’n aml yn yr ardaloedd difreintiedig hynny lle’r ydym yn canolbwyntio ar godi safon addysg. Hefyd, gallai ein hysgolion diarffordd gau.

The Welsh Conservatives believe in a free, competitive market. I have no truck with that; I respect that point of view. However, I have serious doubts whether that position is sustainable in Wales if we are to create an excellent education system.

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn credu mewn marchnad rydd, gystadleuol. Ni wnaf ddim â hynny; parchaf y safbwynt hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn amau’n fawr a ellir dal at y safbwynt hwnnw yng Nghymru os ydym i greu system addysg ragorol.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 98

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

There is no doubt that education will be a key issue in the Assembly elections in a few months’ time. Having heard John Griffiths and Mick Bates claiming great successes within the education system, I suspect that the opposition parties will have a field day on the subject, bearing in mind the recruitment and retention crisis faced in schools, the increased bureaucracy imposed on teachers and governors, teachers’ increased workloads and the lack of opportunity for teachers to control ill-discipline in the classroom as they see fit.

Nid oes dwywaith na fydd addysg yn bwnc allweddol yn etholiadau’r Cynulliad ymhen ychydig fisoedd. Wedi clywed John Griffiths a Mick Bates yn hawlio bod llwyddiannau mawr wedi bod yn y system addysg, yr wyf yn amau y caiff y gwrthbleidiau hwyl fawr â’r pwnc hwn, gan gofio’r argyfwng o ran recriwtio a chadw athrawon y mae ysgolion yn ei wynebu, y fiwrocratiaeth gynyddol a orfodir ar athrawon a llywodraethwyr, y llwythi gwaith cynyddol sydd gan athrawon a’r diffyg cyfle i athrawon reoli disgyblaeth wael yn yr ystafell ddosbarth fel y gwelant orau.

The First Minister tells us that we should always measure outcomes. Teacher morale is an outcome; they believe that they are undervalued, under-resourced and overworked. Who am I to make such a claim? That is a reasonable question, so let us look to the teaching unions, with whom the Assembly Government claims to have a close working relationship. Last year, the National Association of Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers Cymru found that 82 per cent of teachers were considering leaving the profession and that 78 per cent of teachers believed that morale was either low or very low. That is the progress about which Mick Bates chose to sprout in his contribution. [Laughter.]

Dywed y Prif Weinidog wrthym y dylem fesur canlyniadau bob amser. Mae morâl athrawon yn ganlyniad; credant eu bod wedi’u tanbrisio, eu tanariannu a’u gorweithio. Pwy ydwyf fi i wneud y fath honiad? Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn rhesymol, felly gadewch inni droi at yr undebau dysgu, y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn honni bod ganddi berthynas weithio glòs â hwy. Y llynedd, canfu Cymdeithas Genedlaethol yr Ysgolfeistri ac Undeb yr Athrawesau Cymru fod 82 y cant o athrawon yn ystyried gadael y proffesiwn a bod 78 y cant o athrawon yn credu bod morâl un ai’n isel neu’n isel iawn. Dyna’r cynnydd y dewisodd Mick Bates ei daflu allan yn ei gyfraniad. [Chwerthin.]

David Melding spoken in English p. 98

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

He is a vegetable; you know that.

Llysieuyn ydyw; gwyddoch hynny.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 98

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I could not have put it better myself, David. That is the progress that Mick Bates chose to underline. Even if he is pleased about the fact that 82 per cent of teachers are thinking of leaving the profession, I would not announce it in a leaflet or manifesto if he proposes to return to Government after the Assembly elections.

Ni allaswn ei roi’n well fy hun, David. Dyna’r cynnydd y dewisodd Mick Bates dynnu sylw ato. Hyd yn oed os ydyw’n falch ynghylch y ffaith bod 82 y cant o athrawon yn ystyried gadael y proffesiwn, ni fyddwn yn cyhoeddi hynny mewn taflen neu faniffesto os yw’n bwriadu dychwelyd i Lywodraeth ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad.

The Welsh Conservative Party policy involves devolving power to schools. We are about true devolution, and giving power to those on a local level. If it is right, on the one hand, to claim that Wales needs greater devolution to address environmental issues, why should a school not have greater devolution of powers to react to the environment in its community?

Mae polisi Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn golygu datganoli grym i ysgolion. Yr ydym ni’n ymwneud â gwir ddatganoli, a rhoi grym i’r rhai ar lefel leol. Os mai iawn, ar y naill law, yw honni bod ar Gymru angen mwy o ddatganoli i ymdrin â materion amgylcheddol, pam na ddylid datganoli mwy o bwerau i ysgol i ymateb i’r amgylchedd yn ei chymuned?

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 99

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

It seems quite incongruous that the Welsh Conservatives, who were opposed to devolution, now suggest that everything else should be devolved. How do you respond to that?

Ymddengys braidd yn anghyson bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru, a oedd yn erbyn datganoli, bellach yn awgrymu y dylid datganoli popeth arall. Sut yr ydych yn ymateb i hynny?

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 99

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

Eleanor Burnham was not listening to my argument. I was asking, if greater powers should be devolved to the Assembly, why should greater powers not be devolved to schools. That is at the core of our policy.

Nid oedd Eleanor Burnham yn gwrando ar fy nadl. Gofyn yr oeddwn, os dylid datganoli mwy o bwerau i’r Cynulliad, pam na ddylid datganoli mwy o bwerau i ysgolion. Dyna hanfod ein polisi.

David Davies spoken in English p. 99

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

Am I not right in saying that our policy is to devolve power to the people, not to politicians?

Onid wyf yn iawn wrth ddweud mai ein polisi yw datganoli grym i’r bobl, nid i wleidyddion?

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 99

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

That is right. The core of this issue is that the Minister believes that she knows better than teachers, governors and headteachers, who are closer to the situation.

Mae hynny’n iawn. Hanfod y mater hwn yw bod y Gweinidog yn credu ei bod yn gwybod yn well nag athrawon, llywodraethwyr a phenaethiaid ysgol, sy’n agosach at y sefyllfa.

I have highlighted the crisis in terms of teacher retention and low morale within the teaching profession. I was alarmed to discover, by way of a recent written Assembly question, that 50 per cent of the teaching profession is over the age of 45. We need a strategy over the next few years to retain the teachers that we are currently recruiting as well as those who are already in the profession. Given that figure, it is evident that an enormous amount of teachers will seek to leave the profession at the earliest opportunity.

Yr wyf wedi tynnu sylw at yr argyfwng o ran cadw athrawon a morâl isel ymysg athrawon. Dychrynais wrth ddarganfod, drwy gwestiwn Cynulliad ysgrifenedig yn ddiweddar, fod 50 y cant o athrawon dros 45 oed. Mae arnom angen strategaeth dros y blynyddoedd nesaf i gadw’r athrawon yr ydym yn eu recriwtio ar hyn o bryd yn ogystal â’r rhai sydd yn y proffesiwn eisoes. O ystyried y ffigur hwnnw, mae’n amlwg y bydd nifer fawr iawn o athrawon yn ceisio gadael y proffesiwn ar y cyfle cyntaf.

During a recent visit to a school in the Bridgend constituency, a teacher spoke of the desire to have the power to introduce innovative thinking to resolve the problem of low morale, and asked why a policy of gradually phasing out teachers who were due to retire, coupled with the introduction of new recruits into the profession, could not be implemented at a local level. That would give experienced teachers the opportunity to share with new recruits the knowledge that they had built up over the years. Devolving power to schools could give them the opportunity to deliver such innovative thinking to react to local needs.

Yn ystod ymweliad ag ysgol yn etholaeth Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn ddiweddar, soniodd un athro am y dymuniad i gael y grym angenrheidiol i gyflwyno meddwl arloesol er mwyn datrys problem morâl isel, a gofynnodd pam na ellid gweithredu polisi o adael i athrawon a oedd i fod i ymddeol gael gorffen yn raddol, ynghyd â chyflwyno athrawon newydd i’r proffesiwn, ar lefel leol. Rhoddai hynny gyfle i athrawon profiadol rannu’r wybodaeth a oedd wedi dod i’w rhan dros y blynyddoedd ag athrawon newydd. Drwy ddatganoli grym i ysgolion, gellid rhoi cyfle iddynt roi meddwl arloesol o’r fath ar waith i ymateb i anghenion lleol.

Another example is the recent proposal by some local education authorities to issue whiteboards to schools. That is a great idea and it has been welcomed by a large number of schools. However, training in using those boards was not available because schools did not have the necessary funding. I know of two schools in Bridgend where, six months after their arrival, whiteboards were still in boxes in the storeroom because the schools could not afford the training. The Minister thinks that she knows best, and refuses to give schools the right to address their own agenda according to their own priorities. If a particular school needed books more than it needed a whiteboard, would it not have been better to give books to that school, rather than a whiteboard? On the other hand, the schools that needed whiteboards could have afforded the training necessary to make effective use of the whiteboards if they were able to access a greater proportion of their funding. We are left with a situation where the Minister’s strategy contradicts the local needs of schools. Morale among teachers is low because they see money being spent on equipment that may only be needed in some schools.

Enghraifft arall yw’r cynnig diweddar gan rai awdurdodau addysg lleol i roi byrddau gwyn i ysgolion. Mae hwnnw’n syniad gwych ac fe’i croesawyd gan nifer fawr o ysgolion. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd hyfforddiant ar gael i ddefnyddio’r byrddau hynny am nad oedd ysgolion yn meddu ar y cyllid angenrheidiol. Gwn am ddwy ysgol ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr lle’r oedd byrddau gwyn yn dal i fod yn eu blychau yn y storfa, chwe mis ar ôl iddynt gyrraedd, am na allai’r ysgolion fforddio’r hyfforddiant. Mae’r Gweinidog yn credu mai hi a ŵyr orau, ac mae’n gwrthod rhoi hawl i ysgolion roi sylw i’w hagenda eu hun yn ôl eu blaenoriaethau eu hun. Os oedd ar ysgol benodol angen llyfrau’n fwy nag yr oedd arni angen bwrdd gwyn, oni fuasai’n well rhoi llyfrau i’r ysgol honno, yn hytrach na bwrdd gwyn? Ar y llaw arall, byddai’r ysgolion yr oedd arnynt angen byrddau gwyn wedi gallu fforddio’r hyfforddiant yr oedd ei angen i ddefnyddio’r byrddau gwyn yn effeithiol os gallent ddefnyddio cyfran fwy o’u cyllid. Yr ydym wedi ein gadael mewn sefyllfa lle y mae strategaeth y Gweinidog yn mynd yn groes i anghenion lleol ysgolion. Mae morâl ymysg athrawon yn isel am eu bod yn gweld gwario arian ar offer nad oes ond ar rai ysgolion eu hangen o bosibl.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 100

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I must call the Minister at 5.15 p.m., so I request a brief contribution, Lorraine.

Rhaid imi alw ar y Gweinidog am 5.15 p.m., felly gofynnaf am gyfraniad byr, Lorraine.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 100

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I am amazed that David Melding did not jump up and down when David Davies referred to our pupils as the lowest common denominator. You should be ashamed of yourself, David.

Yr wyf yn synnu na wnaeth David Melding wylltio pan alwodd David Davies ein disgyblion yn lefel gyffredin isaf. Rhag eich cywilydd, David.

David Davies a gododd—

David Davies rose—

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 100

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Sit down. I have had enough of you. I want to remind—

Eisteddwch. Yr wyf wedi cael digon ohonoch. Yr wyf am atgoffa—

David Davies spoken in English p. 100

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

May I make a point of order?

A gaf godi pwynt o drefn?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 100

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Order. Two people cannot stand up at once. I will take a point of order later.

Trefn. Ni chaiff dau Aelod fod ar eu traed yr un pryd. Cymeraf bwynt o drefn yn ddiweddarach.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 101

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

I want to remind the Tories that there was no stomach in Wales to introduce a grant-maintained system for our schools. From memory, no primary school voted for grant-maintained status, and only a handful of comprehensive schools voted for their 30 pieces of silver. I know that many schools want to remain under the safe umbrella of the LEAs. I am a school governor, and, contrary to what Alun Cairns said, we do not want to take on any more responsibilities. The responsibilities that we have now are enough. You are proposing that governors take on a bigger workload and more responsibilities in terms of the management and financial running of schools. I look forward to voting against the motion.

Yr wyf am atgoffa’r Torïaid nad oedd awydd o gwbl yng Nghymru i gyflwyno system ysgolion a gynhelir â grant ar gyfer ein hysgolion. Hyd y cofiaf, ni phleidleisiodd yr un ysgol gynradd o blaid statws ysgol a gynhelir â grant, a dim ond llond llaw o ysgolion cyfun a bleidleisiodd o blaid cymryd eu 30 darn o arian. Gwn fod llawer o ysgolion am aros o dan adain ddiogel yr awdurdod addysg lleol. Yr wyf yn llywodraethwr ysgol, ac, yn groes i’r hyn a ddywedodd Alun Cairns, nid ydym am ymgymryd â rhagor o gyfrifoldebau. Mae’r cyfrifoldebau sydd gennym yn ddigon. Yr ydych chi’n cynnig y dylai llywodraethwyr ymgymryd â llwyth gwaith mwy a mwy o gyfrifoldebau o ran rheoli ysgolion a’u rhedeg yn ariannol. Edrychaf ymlaen at bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 101

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

We have heard much from Jonathan Morgan and other Conservative Members about the party’s view that schools should be freed from local authority control so that they would be free to do their own thing; that what is happening in England is better—please go there; and that we should forget about made-in-Wales policies and doing what is best for Wales. I fundamentally disagree, as do all other parties in the Assembly, with the argument that we should automatically implement another country’s policy and not consider what policies are best for us in Wales. I fundamentally disagree, as did Helen Mary Jones, with the analysis of the relationship between schools and LEAs. I disagree in terms of democratic accountability—as did Helen—and in terms of what works best in delivering our core objectives of securing high standards, breaking down barriers to learning, lifting our skills base and ensuring that young people are equipped to take their place in society.

Clywsom lawer gan Jonathan Morgan ac Aelodau Ceidwadol eraill am farn y blaid honno y dylid rhyddhau ysgolion oddi wrth reolaeth awdurdodau lleol fel y byddent yn rhydd i ddilyn eu trywydd eu hun; bod yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn Lloegr yn well—ewch yno, ar bob cyfrif; ac y dylem anghofio am bolisïau a wnaed yng Nghymru a gwneud yr hyn sydd orau i Gymru. Anghytunaf yn sylfaenol, fel y mae’r holl bleidiau eraill yn y Cynulliad, â’r ddadl y dylem roi polisi gwlad arall ar waith yn awtomatig a pheidio ag ystyried pa bolisïau yw’r rhai gorau i ni yng Nghymru. Anghytunaf yn sylfaenol, fel y gwnaeth Helen Mary Jones, â’r dadansoddiad o’r berthynas rhwng ysgolion ac AALl. Anghytunaf o ran atebolrwydd democrataidd—fel y gwnaeth Helen—ac o ran yr hyn sy’n gweithio orau wrth gyflawni ein hamcanion craidd o sicrhau safonau uchel, chwalu rhwystrau i ddysgu, gwella ein sylfaen sgiliau a sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn barod i gymryd eu lle mewn cymdeithas.

We take the view that school education is properly the responsibility of local authorities. That view is shared by the other two parties in the Assembly. Authorities are accountable locally; they can take decisions in light of local circumstances and needs. Schools working in isolation cannot take a strategic approach and it is not their function to do so. Although many schools are outward facing to the communities that they serve, which I strongly welcome, they cannot take the wide view if they are working alone, whereas LEAs have a responsibility to provide for all children in their areas, in early years and during compulsory schooling and beyond. LEAs must set the vision for education provision in the authority and the strategy to underpin that vision. We have built on that in the Education Act 2002. In Wales-only provisions, LEAs must enter into partnership agreements with each of their schools to set out the service that the schools can expect from the LEAs and the pupil outcomes that the LEAs expect the schools to deliver. That is the right kind of partnership in action—partnership focused on achievement.

Ein barn ni yw y dylai addysg ysgolion fod yn gyfrifoldeb i awdurdodau lleol. Mae’r ddwy blaid arall yn y Cynulliad o’r un farn. Mae awdurdodau’n atebol yn lleol; gallant wneud penderfyniadau yng ngolwg amgylchiadau ac anghenion lleol. Ni all ysgolion sy’n gweithio ar wahân i’w gilydd weithredu’n strategol ac nid hynny yw eu swyddogaeth. Er bod llawer o ysgolion yn edrych tuag allan ar y cymunedau a wasanaethant, a chroesawaf hynny’n fawr, ni allant gymryd golwg eang os ydynt yn gweithio ar eu pen eu hunain, tra bo cyfrifoldeb gan AALl i ddarparu ar gyfer yr holl blant yn eu hardaloedd, yn y blynyddoedd cynnar ac yn ystod addysg orfodol ac wedyn. Rhaid i AALl bennu’r weledigaeth ar gyfer darparu addysg yn yr awdurdod a’r strategaeth i ategu’r weledigaeth honno. Yr ydym wedi adeiladu ar sail hynny yn Neddf Addysg 2002. Mewn darpariaethau i Gymru’n unig, rhaid i AALl wneud cytundebau partneriaeth â phob un o’u hysgolion i nodi’r gwasanaeth y gall ysgolion ddisgwyl ei gael gan yr AALl a’r canlyniadau gan ddisgyblion y mae’r AALl yn disgwyl i’r ysgolion eu cyflawni. Dyna’r math iawn o bartneriaeth ar waith—partneriaeth sy’n canolbwyntio ar gyflawni.

LEAs support schools, particularly underperforming schools and those in challenging circumstances, by offering timely help and advice. It is interesting to note that there has not been anything like the number of failing schools in Wales that there has been across the border. LEAs must ensure effective transition for pupils from primary to secondary school. That transition was strengthened in the Education Act 2002 by way of Wales-only powers to ensure that the achievement of key stage 2 pupils is continued and built upon at key stage 3. LEAs support schools in the drive for improved standards at key stage 3. They sustain activity on literacy and numeracy; John Griffiths cited an excellent example of this. It is likely that two Welsh authorities will be ahead of any other UK authority in terms of literacy strategies. There are already more schools engaged in literacy and obtaining the quality mark in Wales than in any other part of the UK. LEAs provide schools with effective behaviour support and alternative curriculum strategies. Good work is being carried out across Wales.

Mae AALl yn cynorthwyo ysgolion, yn enwedig ysgolion sy’n tangyflawni a’r rhai sydd mewn amgylchiadau anodd, drwy gynnig cymorth a chyngor amserol. Diddorol yw nodi na fu nifer yr ysgolion sy’n methu yng Nghymru yn debyg i’r hyn a gafwyd dros y ffin. Rhaid i AALl sicrhau bod disgyblion yn gallu trawsnewid yn effeithiol o’r ysgol gynradd i’r ysgol uwchradd. Cryfhawyd y trawsnewid hwnnw yn Neddf Addysg 2002 drwy roi pwerau i Gymru’n unig i sicrhau bod cyflawniad disgyblion yng nghyfnod allweddol 2 yn parhau ac yn cael ei ddatblygu yng nghyfnod allweddol 3. Mae AALl yn cynorthwyo ysgolion yn yr ymdrech i wella safonau yng nghyfnod allweddol 3. Maent yn cynnal gweithgaredd ym maes llythrennedd a rhifedd; cyfeiriodd John Griffiths at enghraifft ragorol o hynny. Mae’n debygol y bydd dau awdurdod yng Nghymru ar y blaen i’r holl awdurdodau eraill yn y DU o ran strategaethau llythrennedd. Mae mwy o ysgolion yn ymwneud â llythrennedd ac ennill y nod ansawdd yng Nghymru nag mewn unrhyw ran arall o’r DU. Mae AALl yn darparu cymorth effeithiol i ymdrin ag ymddygiad a strategaethau cwricwlwm gwahanol ar gyfer ysgolion. Gwneir gwaith da ledled Cymru.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 103

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103

We can deliver distinctive Welsh policies in Wales because we have a coherent local government structure. Do you agree that platforms such as the Local Government Partnership Council and our relationship with the Welsh Local Government Association enable us to develop those distinctive policies? Will you join me in congratulating those hard working professionals within LEAs who deliver valuable and valued services to schools and headteachers? Is it not a disgrace that the Tories and, I regret to say, Plaid Cymru have today again labelled those people as bureaucrats, smearing them as if they were a pariah within the local government sector? They are nothing of the sort; they are hard-working people and are essential to any successful business.

Gallwn gyflawni polisïau neilltuol Gymreig yng Nghymru am fod gennym strwythur llywodraeth leol cydlynol. A ydych yn cytuno bod llwyfannau fel y Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol a’n perthynas â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn ein galluogi i ddatblygu’r polisïau neilltuol hynny? A wnewch ymuno â mi i longyfarch y gweithwyr proffesiynol diwyd hynny mewn AALl sy’n darparu gwasanaethau gwerthfawr i ysgolion a phenaethiaid ysgol? Onid yw’n warthus bod y Torïaid, a Phlaid Cymru, mae’n ddrwg gennyf ddweud, wedi labelu’r bobl hynny eto heddiw’n fiwrocratiaid, gan eu pardduo fel pe baent yn ysgymun yn y sector llywodraeth leol? Nid ydynt yn ddim o’r fath beth; maent yn bobl ddiwyd sy’n hollbwysig i unrhyw fusnes llwyddiannus.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 103

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103

One of the LEAs’ most important functions is to encourage schools to share good practice and learn from one another, and central support is key to achieving that. LEAs take soundly-based and transparent decisions on school funding at a local level. We are insisting that that will be much clearer in future with the introduction of school budget fora in 2004, although we are requesting that voluntary fora be established before then. The teaching profession in Wales welcomes this proposal, because LEAs will be required to listen and take account of the views of the school budget fora. The fora will not meet on a daily basis, as Jonathan suggested. They will ensure that all the proper educational issues are taken into account in the annual budget setting process.

Un o’r swyddogaethau pwysicaf sydd gan yr AALl yw annog ysgolion i rannu arferion da a dysgu oddi wrth ei gilydd, ac mae cymorth canolog yn allweddol i gyflawni hynny. Mae AALl yn gwneud penderfyniadau tryloyw a phwyllog ar gyllido ysgolion yn lleol. Yr ydym yn mynnu y bydd hynny’n gliriach o lawer yn y dyfodol drwy gyflwyno fforymau cyllideb ysgol yn 2004, er ein bod yn gofyn am sefydlu fforymau gwirfoddol cyn hynny. Mae athrawon yng Nghymru’n croesawu’r cynnig hwn, gan y bydd yn ofynnol i AALl wrando ac ystyried barn y fforymau cyllideb ysgol. Ni fydd y fforymau’n cwrdd bob dydd, fel yr awgrymodd Jonathan. Byddant yn sicrhau bod yr holl faterion addysgol priodol yn cael eu hystyried yn y broses pennu cyllideb flynyddol

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 103

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103

You have indicated that you believe that budget fora will somehow place a responsibility on LEAs to listen to, and consult with, schools on changes to how they are funded. LEAs are already required by law to consult schools on how they are funded, and that is why we are in a mess in Cardiff, where Cardiff County Council has been consulting its schools under its statutory obligations. What is the difference between that and budget fora, except that the fora will create more paperwork for headteachers?

Yr ydych wedi nodi y credwch y bydd fforymau cyllideb rywsut yn rhoi cyfrifoldeb i AALl i wrando ar ysgolion ac ymgynghori â hwy ynghylch newidiadau yn y dull o’u cyllido. Mae eisoes yn ofynnol yn ôl y gyfraith i AALl ymgynghori ag ysgolion ynghylch y dull o’u cyllido, a dyna pam yr ydym mewn trafferthion yng Nghaerdydd, lle y bu Cyngor Sir Caerdydd yn ymgynghori â’i ysgolion o dan ei rwymedigaethau statudol. Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng hynny a fforymau cyllideb, heblaw y bydd y fforymau’n creu mwy o waith papur i benaethiaid ysgol?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 104

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

Establishing budget fora will ensure that there is proper dialogue between local authorities and schools about all aspects of education funding. The big difference is that, when councils set their education budgets, they will be required to take account of the evidence coming through the budget fora.

Drwy sicrhau fforymau cyllideb, sicrheir deialog briodol rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion ynghylch pob agwedd ar gyllido addysg. Y gwahaniaeth mawr yw, pan yw cynghorau’n gosod eu cyllidebau addysg, y bydd yn ofynnol iddynt ystyried y dystiolaeth a ddaw drwy’r fforymau cyllideb.

In response to Helen Mary’s request for a timetable on changing funding formulae, we are keen to ensure that we get the right funding formulae for delivery across Wales. We have a minimum of 22 variations, although we believe that there are many more because local authorities have different formulae for primary school budgets, secondary school budgets and post-16 budgets. Some local authorities have not reviewed their formulae for a long time, while others have reviewed their formulae recently. We have already expressed, in Committee and in Plenary, our interest in taking forward an agenda to tackle the fact that 75 per cent of funding is currently based on pupil numbers. We will start the consultation in February and the timetables for the budget fora and the funding formulae will be issued at the same time for introduction in 2004.

Mewn ymateb i gais Helen Mary am amserlen ar gyfer newid fformiwlâu cyllido, yr ydym yn awyddus i sicrhau y cawn y fformiwlâu cyllido iawn i’w gweithredu ledled Cymru. Mae gennym o leiaf 22 o amrywiadau, er ein bod yn credu bod mwy gan fod awdurdodau lleol yn meddu ar wahanol fformiwlâu ar gyfer cyllidebau ysgol gynradd, cyllidebau ysgol uwchradd a chyllidebau ôl-16. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol heb adolygu eu fformiwlâu ers amser maith, tra bo eraill wedi adolygu eu fformiwlâu’n ddiweddar. Yr ydym eisoes wedi mynegi ein diddordeb, yn y Pwyllgor ac yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, mewn bwrw ymlaen ag agenda i ymdrin â’r ffaith bod 75 y cant o’r cyllido’n cael ei seilio ar niferoedd disgyblion ar hyn o bryd. Dechreuwn ymgynghori yn Chwefror a chyhoeddir yr amserlenni ar gyfer y fforymau cyllideb a’r fformiwlâu cyllido ar yr un pryd i’w cyflwyno yn 2004.

I must also emphasise that LEAs are driving forward capital investment on a needs basis. We need to tackle the effects of 20 years of disinvestment over which the Conservative Government presided. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] We are ensuring that we have a strategic assessment of need. You cannot deliver the right capital investment without assessing need.

Rhaid imi bwysleisio hefyd fod AALl yn hyrwyddo buddsoddi cyfalaf ar sail anghenion. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag effeithiau 20 mlynedd o ddadfuddsoddi o dan law’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Yr ydym yn sicrhau y cawn asesiad strategol o angen. Ni ellir rhoi’r buddsoddiad cyfalaf priodol heb asesu angen.

The Assembly Government’s policies are designed to enable LEAs and schools to work together.

Bwriad polisïau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw galluogi AALl ac ysgolion i weithio gyda’i gilydd.

David Davies and Glyn Davies rose—

David Davies a Glyn Davies a godasant—

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 104

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104

The Conservatives will have the opportunity to wind-up this debate, so you will have plenty of time to make your points.

Caiff y Ceidwadwyr gyfle i gloi’r ddadl hon, felly cewch ddigon o amser i wneud ech pwyntiau.

I have visited about half of all secondary schools in Wales and around a third of all primary schools. I have visited our comprehensive schools that are at the heart of their communities and that work in their interests. Your point about specialist schools is wrong. Last week’s assessment in England indicated that, on a value-added agenda, the specialist schools did not out-perform the comprehensives, other than by a factor of 0.02 per cent.

Yr wyf wedi ymweld ag ymron i hanner yr ysgolion uwchradd yng Nghymru a thua un rhan o dair o’r ysgolion cynradd. Yr wyf wedi ymweld ag ysgolion cyfun sydd yng nghanol eu cymunedau ac sy’n gweithio er eu budd. Mae’r pwynt a wnaethoch am ysgolion arbenigol yn anghywir. Yr oedd yr asesiad yr wythnos diwethaf yn Lloegr yn dangos, ar yr agenda gwerth ychwanegol, nad oedd ysgolion arbenigol yn perfformio’n well na’r ysgolion cyfun, heblaw o ffactor o 0.02 y cant.

Jonathan Morgan a gododd—

Jonathan Morgan rose—

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 105

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

The Conservatives can answer in a moment. Once again, our comprehensive schools have been vindicated. As the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has said on many occasions, a collaborative education system is more beneficial.

Caiff y Ceidwadwyr ateb mewn eiliad. Unwaith eto, mae ein hysgolion cyfun wedi’u cyfiawnhau. Fel y dywedodd y Gymdeithas Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd lawer gwaith, mae system addysg gydweithredol yn fwy llesol.

I will now quote an external source. Much has been said in the Chamber today about politicking for the election. I am confident to stand for election on our education record. I quote The Times Educational Supplement from last Friday.

Dyfynnaf o ffynhonnell allanol yn awr. Dywedwyd llawer yn y Siambr heddiw am wleidydda ar gyfer yr etholiad. Yr wyf fi’n sefyll etholiad yn hyderus ar sail ein record mewn addysg. Dyfynnaf o rifyn dydd Gwener diwethaf o The Times Educational Supplement.

David Davies spoken in English p. 105

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 105

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

In it, an independent journalist—with no interest in supporting the Assembly Government or any other party here—commented on David Davies’s views, and said about him:

Yn hwnnw, gwnaed sylw gan newyddiadurwr annibynnol—nad oedd ganddo fuddiant mewn cefnogi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad nac unrhyw blaid arall yma— am farn David Davies, a dywedodd amdano:

‘As a fan of the English way in an Assembly that wants to forge a distinctive Welsh path in education, he looks set to be putting forward an unpopular case for many years to come.’

Fel un o gefnogwyr y dull Seisnig mewn Cynulliad sydd am dorri llwybr neilltuol Gymreig mewn addysg, ymddengys ei fod yn barod i gyflwyno achos amhoblogaidd am lawer o flynyddoedd i ddod.

David Davies spoken in English p. 105

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

You never give way, Jane.

Nid ydych byth yn ildio, Jane.

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 105

Jane Davidson spoken in Welsh p. 105

I did give way.

Gwneuthum ildio.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

Order. This is not a kindergarten; this is the National Assembly. I call on Nick Bourne to wind up the debate.

Trefn. Nid ysgol feithrin yw hwn; y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ydyw. Galwaf ar Nick Bourne i gloi’r ddadl.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 105

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

This debate is about giving power to schools.

Mae’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â rhoi grym i ysgolion.

‘I want as many schools to become specialist as possible. If your local school is a specialist school, it is more likely to be a good school.’

Yr wyf am i gynifer ag y bo modd o ysgolion ddod yn rhai arbenigol. Os yw’ch ysgol leol yn ysgol arbenigol, mae’n fwy tebygol o fod yn ysgol dda.

That is not a quote from me, but from the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Charles Clarke.

Nid dyfyniad o’m geiriau i yw hwnnw, ond un o eiddo’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau, Charles Clarke.

It is interesting that the Minister started off by saying that we can do things differently in Wales. That was about all that she said that was correct, and I agree with her on that. She then mounted an attack on us for wanting to see what is done in England. She said that Jonathan Morgan should move to England. Well, Minister, you seem willing to learn lessons from Cuba so, on the same basis, please go.

Diddorol yw nodi bod y Gweinidog wedi dechrau drwy ddweud y gallwn wneud pethau’n wahanol yng Nghymru. Hynny oedd bron yr unig beth a ddywedodd a oedd yn gywir, a chytunaf â hi ar hynny. Ymosododd arnom wedyn am ddymuno gweld yr hyn a wneir yn Lloegr. Dywedodd y dylai Jonathan Morgan symud i Loegr. Wel, Weinidog, ymddengys eich bod chi’n barod i ddysgu gwersi gan Giwba felly, ar yr un sail, ewch chi, ar bob cyfrif.

Let us consider some of the matters that this debate should not have been about. It is not about private education. John Griffiths said that it was all about dogma but, if there has been dogma, it has come from Labour. Following his comments on private education, we noticed that he slipped out during the debate. I assume that it was to apologise to the Prime Minister, who was educated at Fettes College, or possibly to Charles Clarke, who was educated at Highgate School. You can make your peace later with your own Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, who was educated at Malvern Girls’ College. You should have broadened your attack slightly to include elite universities, then you could also have apologised to the First Minister who was educated at Oxford and Harvard.

Gadewch inni ystyried rhai o’r materion na ddylesid eu trafod yn y ddadl hon. Nid yw’n ymwneud ag addysg breifat. Dywedodd John Griffiths fod y cwbl yn ymwneud â dogma ond, os bu dogma, fe’i cafwyd gan Lafur. Ar ôl ei sylwadau am addysg breifat, gwnaethom sylwi ei fod wedi sleifio allan yn ystod y ddadl. Cymeraf ei fod wedi gwneud hynny er mwyn cael ymddiheuro i’r Prif Weinidog, a addysgwyd yng Ngholeg Fettes, neu o bosibl i Charles Clarke, a dderbyniodd ei addysg yn Ysgol Highgate. Cewch gymodi wedyn â’ch Gweinidog eich hun dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a dderbyniodd ei haddysg yng Ngholeg Merched Malvern. Dylech fod wedi ehangu’ch ymosodiad ychydig i gynnwys prifysgolion elitaidd, ac wedyn gallech fod wedi ymddiheuro i Brif Weinidog Cymru a dderbyniodd ei addysg yn Rhydychen a Harvard.

We knew that the Minister was in trouble when, as soon as she got up, she claimed Helen Mary Jones as her main ally. With her characteristic hyperbole, Helen Mary made a play for all those disgruntled Labour voters in Llanelli. I do not doubt that there are quite a lot of them, but I should remind her that there are quite a few disgruntled Plaid Cymru voters too.

Gwyddem fod y Gweinidog mewn trafferthion gan ei bod, cyn gynted ag y cododd, yn hawlio Helen Mary Jones yn brif gynghreiriad iddi. Gyda’i gormodiaith arferol, anelodd Helen Mary am y pleidleiswyr Llafur anniddig hynny yn Llanelli. Nid wyf yn amau nad oes cryn nifer ohonynt, ond dylwn ei hatgoffa bod cryn dipyn o bleidleiswyr Plaid Cymru anniddig hefyd.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 106

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 106

There are quite a few Tory ones, too.

Mae cryn dipyn o rai Torïaidd hefyd.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 107

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

You say that, but let us see. The disgruntled voters will not vote for you.

Dywedwch hynny, ond gadewch inni weld. Ni fydd y pleidleiswyr anniddig yn pleidleisio drosoch chi.

This debate concerns giving financial power to schools. The Assembly Government has missed key targets under its current policy. It missed key stage 3 and key stage 4 targets—we did not hear much about that from the Minister. People are leaving modern languages in droves, which is serious. Science and mathematics are not progressing as well here as they are in England. That is also serious. We accept that the Minister has money to play with, but our main complaint is that it is all controlled from the centre. She wants a dull, monochrome, statist, centrist system, because that is what she believes in. We do not. We believe that diversity within the state system is better for Wales.

Mae’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â rhoi grym ariannol i ysgolion. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi methu targedau allweddol o dan ei pholisi presennol. Methodd y targedau ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 3 a chyfnod allweddol 4—ni chlywsom lawer am hynny gan y Gweinidog. Mae pobl yn gadael ieithoedd modern yn eu lluoedd, ac mae hynny’n fater difrifol. Nid yw’r cynnydd yn y gwyddorau a mathemateg gystal yma ag ydyw yn Lloegr. Mae hynny’n ddifrifol hefyd. Yr ydym yn derbyn bod gan y Gweinidog arian i chwarae ag ef, ond ein prif gŵyn yw y caiff y cwbl ei reoli o’r canol. Mae hi am gael system ddiflas, unlliw, wladwriaethol a chanoliaethol, gan mai yn hynny y mae’n credu. Nid ydym ni. Credwn fod amrywiaeth o fewn y system wladol yn well i Gymru.

I disagree with Mick Bates when he said that he respected our stand in believing in a total free-for-all, or that is what he seemed to imply. I do not believe that for a minute. We must have a regulated sector and a strong state system. I am proud to have come through the state system, but we are not doing people from any background in Wales a good turn if we simply have a standard type of school. Unlike the Prime Minister, I would never use the phrase ‘bog-standard comprehensive’—but if we have just one type of standard comprehensive school in Wales, all pupils will suffer. We need diversity and choice in the system, and the Minister should acknowledge that—

Anghytunaf â Mick Bates pan ddywedodd ei fod yn parchu ein safiad o ran credu mewn afreolaeth lwyr, neu ymddengys mai hynny yr oedd yn ei awgrymu. Ni chredaf yn hynny o gwbl. Rhaid inni gael sector rheoleiddiedig a system wladol gadarn. Yr wyf yn falch fy mod wedi mynd drwy’r system wladol, ond nid ydym yn gwneud tro da â neb o unrhyw gefndir yng Nghymru os mai’r cwbl sydd gennym yw math safonol o ysgol. Yn wahanol i’r Prif Weinidog, ni fyddwn byth yn defnyddio’r ymadrodd ‘ysgol gyfun gyffredin’—ond os mai dim ond un math o ysgol gyfun safonol a fydd gennym yng Nghymru, bydd yr holl ddisgyblion yn dioddef. Mae arnom angen amrywiaeth a dewis yn y system, a dylai’r Gweinidog gydnabod hynny—

Helen Mary Jones a gododd—

Helen Mary Jones rose—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 107

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

No, I am sorry, we have heard enough from you for today and this week. We need diversity and choice in the system. We also need a broad curriculum, but that must be left to schools to interpret as they see best, with as much of the budget delegated to them as possible. Some matters will of course have to be centrally-controlled—there is no doubt about that—for example, school transport, exclusions and so on. However, the trouble with the Minister is that she cannot resist interfering; she is a meddling Minister. She has introduced many initiatives but they must all be centrally-controlled—that is the problem. Some of her ideas are good—we do not dispute that—but let individual schools decide what is best for them and their communities. This is our difficulty with this Minister.

Na, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, clywsom ddigon gennych am heddiw a’r wythnos hon. Mae arnom angen amrywiaeth a dewis yn y system. Mae arnom angen cwricwlwm eang hefyd, ond rhaid gadael i’r ysgolion ddehongli hynny fel y gwelant orau, gan ddirprwyo cymaint ag y bo modd o’r gyllideb iddynt. Wrth gwrs, bydd yn rhaid rheoli rhai materion yn ganolog—nid oes dwywaith am hynny—er enghraifft, trafnidiaeth ysgol, gwaharddiadau ac yn y blaen. Fodd bynnag, y broblem sydd ynglŷn â’r Gweinidog yw na all ymatal rhag ymyrryd; mae’n Weinidog sy’n busnesa. Cyflwynodd lawer o fentrau ond rhaid eu rheoli i gyd yn ganolog—dyna’r broblem. Mae ganddi rai syniadau da—nid ydym yn gwadu hynny—ond gadewch i ysgolion unigol benderfynu ar yr hyn sydd orau iddynt hwy a’u cymunedau. Ar hynny yr ydym yn anghydweld â’r Gweinidog hwn.

I am proud to propose this motion on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives because it is about a public, state system recognising that managerial and financial powers should be delegated to schools. I am proud that we are in favour of diversity and choice; everybody else seems to be against it.

Yr wyf yn falch o gynnig y cynnig hwn ar ran Ceidwadwyr Cymru gan ei fod yn ymwneud â’r angen i system wladol, gyhoeddus gydnabod y dylid dirprwyo pwerau rheolaethol ac ariannol i ysgolion. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod o blaid amrywiaeth a dewis; ymddengys bod pawb arall yn eu herbyn.

Gwelliant 1 Jane Davidson t. 108

Amendment 1 Jane Davidson p. 108

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 30 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 21

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment accepted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (30)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Jonathan Morgan t. 109

Amended motion Jonathan Morgan p. 109

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 21

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 109

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109

That completes this afternoon’s business.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.29 p.m.

The session ended at 5.29 p.m.