Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mercher 26 Ionawr 2000
Wednesday 26 January 2000
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolQuestions to the Secretary for Health and Social Services
- 3Cartrefi Plant a Gofalwyr MaethChildren’s Homes and Foster Carers
- 6Buddsoddi mewn Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolInvestment in Social Services
- 9Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg (Cynigion ar gyfer Safle)East Glamorgan Hospital (Site Proposals)
- 11Cynllun i Werthu Canolfan Lôn AbatyScheme to Sell the Abbey Road Centre
- 14Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16Questions to the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training
- 14Perthnasedd Adroddiad Cubie i Gymru (Trafodaethau)Relevance of the Cubie Report to Wales (Discussions)
- 17Perthnasedd Adroddiad Cubie i Gymru (Adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor)Relevance of the Cubie Inquiry to Wales (Report to Committee)
- 18Theatr Iolo (Cynnig i Ddarparu Gwasanaethau)Theatr Iolo (Bid to Provide Services)
- 21Poblogaeth Myfyrwyr (Cefnogi a Darparu Newid)Student Population (Supporting and Accommodating Change)
- 22Theatr Powys (Diddymu Cyllid)Theatr Powys (Withdrawal of Funding)
- 23Hyrwyddo Defnydd o’r GymraegPromoting Use of the Welsh Language
- 24Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 26Datganiad ar Raglen Frechu Llid yr Ymennydd CStatement on the Meningitis C Vaccination Programme
- 35Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadThe New Assembly Building 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
- 81Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymgymerwyr Dŵr (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000 a Gorchymyn British Gas ccc (Gwerth Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000 and the British Gas plc (Rateable Value) (Wales) Order 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 85Cymeradwyo Canllawiau’r CynulliadApproval of Assembly Guidance 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadThe New Assembly Building | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 8 | 0 | 42 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 51 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 43 | 0 | 8 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion | 43 | 0 | 8 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymgymerwyr Dŵr (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000 a Gorchymyn British Gas ccc (Gwerth Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000 and the British Gas plc (Rateable Value) (Wales) Order 2000 | ||||
| CynnigMotion | 36 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| CynnigMotion | 36 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cymeradwyo Canllawiau’r CynulliadApproval of Assembly Guidance | ||||
| CynnigMotion | 33 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| CynnigMotion | 34 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair
Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol
Questions to the Secretary for Health and Social Services
Cartrefi Plant a Gofalwyr Maeth
Children’s Homes and Foster Carers
What measures are being taken to scrutinise children’s homes and foster carers in Wales? (OAQ3051)
Pa fesurau sydd yn cael eu cymryd i archwilio cartrefi plant a gofalwyr maeth yng Nghymru? (OAQ3051)
Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 3
Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
Local authority inspection units are required to inspect local authority community homes including those providing secure accommodation, controlled and assisted community homes and registered children’s homes twice yearly in accordance with the Children’s Homes Regulations 1991. The Social Services Inspectorate for Wales is responsible for carrying out the same inspection regime for voluntary children’s homes and also has the responsibility for carrying out inspections on behalf of the Assembly for the approval and licensing of secure accommodation. Children’s homes with three children or less are not currently required to be registered with the local authority and inspected. The loophole is being addressed by the Care Standards Bill.
Mae’n ofynnol i unedau arolygu’r awdurdodau lleol arolygu cartrefi cymuned yr awdurdodau lleol gan gynnwys y rheini sydd yn darparu llety caeth, cartrefi cymuned dan reolaeth sydd yn derbyn cymorth a chartrefi plant cofrestredig ddwywaith y flwyddyn yn unol â Rheoliadau Cartrefi Plant 1991. Mae Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru yn gyfrifol am gyflawni’r un drefn arolygu ar gartrefi plant gwirfoddol a hi sydd yn gyfrifol hefyd am gynnal arolygiadau ar ran y Cynulliad i gymeradwyo a thrwyddedu llety caeth. Ar hyn o bryd nid oes gofyn i gartrefi plant sydd â thri neu lai o blant gofrestru gyda’r awdurdod lleol a chael eu harolygu. Ymdrinnir â’r diffyg hwn yn y Mesur Safonau Gofal.
Responsibility for scrutiny of foster carers lies with the relevant local authority social services department. All foster carers are subject to thorough assessment of their suitability to provide care for a child.
Adran Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr awdurdod lleol perthnasol sydd yn gyfrifol am archwilio gofalwyr maeth. Mae pob gofalwr maeth yn cael asesiad trylwyr i ganfod a yw’n addas i ddarparu gofal i blentyn.
There have been so many horror stories recently concerning the abuse of the most vulnerable people in our society. The young and adolescent children in care suffer physical, sexual and crippling emotional abuse. Neglect and abrogation of responsibility can no longer be tolerated. Do you agree that no issue facing the Assembly is more important than ensuring the safety and wellbeing of every child in Wales and, in particular, those children for whom the State acts in loco parentis?
Bu cynifer o straeon dychrynllyd yn ddiweddar am gam-drin y rhai hawsaf i’w niweidio yn ein cymdeithas. Mae pobl ifanc a phlant adolesent mewn gofal yn dioddef camdriniaeth gorfforol a rhywiol a chamdriniaeth sydd yn eu parlysu’n emosiynol. Ni ellir goddef esgeulustra a gwadu cyfrifoldeb ddim hwy. A ydych yn cytuno nad oes unrhyw bwnc pwysicach yn wynebu’r Cynulliad na sicrhau diogelwch a lles pob plentyn yng Nghymru ac, yn enwedig, y plant hynny y mae’r Wladwriaeth yn gweithredu in loco parentis drostynt?
I concur. The Assembly must make it quite clear that we will not tolerate the abuse or the lack of safeguarding children in Wales, particularly the children in our care. The Health and Social Services Committee has taken this subject on board. Our discussion about establishing a children’s commissioner for Wales stemmed from our duty and responsibility to children in Wales. We have had a good response to that consultation. The Care Standards Bill that is now going through Parliament will introduce the inspection of local authority and independent fostering services and set the same standards across the board for the provision of such services. We have new national standards for foster care, which are also very important in relation to codes of practice. I agree with what you have said. It is vital that the Assembly takes the lead in this.
Yr wyf yn cytuno. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad ei gwneud hi’n gwbl glir na fyddwn yn goddef camdriniaeth na diffyg i ddiogelu plant yng Nghymru, yn enwedig y plant yn ein gofal. Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi mynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn. Deilliai ein trafodaeth am sefydlu comisiynydd plant i Gymru o’n dyletswydd a’n cyfrifoldeb i blant Cymru. Yr ydym wedi cael ymateb da i’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw. Bydd y Mesur Safonau Gofal sydd ar ei ffordd drwy’r Senedd ar hyn o bryd yn cyflwyno trefn i arolygu gwasanaethau maethu annibynnol a rhai’r awdurdodau lleol ac yn pennu’r un safonau i bob corff wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau o’r fath. Mae gennym safonau cenedlaethol newydd ar gyfer gofal maeth, sydd hefyd yn bwysig iawn o safbwynt codau ymarfer. Cytunaf â’r hyn yr ydych wedi ei ddweud. Mae’n holl bwysig fod y Cynulliad yn arwain ar y mater hwn.
I welcome the Secretary for Health and Social Services’ response to Richard Edwards’s question. Will she join me in regretting the coverage on the front page of The Western Mail today that suggested that the Assembly does not take its responsibility towards the children of Wales seriously? That is an example of the kind of irresponsible and negative reporting that does not do this institution, nor the children of Wales, any good. Furthermore, does Jane agree that it is important that our children’s commissioner will have real powers? Will she tell us what discussions she has had with colleagues at a Westminster level to ensure that if we require Westminster time to give statutory powers to our children’s commissioner, that time will be made available?
Croesawaf ymateb yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i gwestiwn Richard Edwards. A wnaiff hi ymuno â mi yn fy ngofid o ddarllen tudalen flaen The Western Mail heddiw sydd yn awgrymu nad yw’r Cynulliad yn cymryd ei gyfrifoldeb tuag at blant Cymru o ddifrif? Mae’n enghraifft o’r math anghyfrifol a negyddol o newyddiadura nad yw’n gwneud unrhyw les i’r sefydliad hwn, nac i blant Cymru. Yn ogystal, a yw Jane yn cytuno ei bod hi’n bwysig i’n comisiynydd plant fod â phwerau gwirioneddol? A wnaiff hi ddweud wrthym pa drafodaethau y mae wedi eu cael gyda chydweithwyr ar lefel San Steffan i sicrhau, os bydd angen amser arnom yn San Steffan i roi pwerau statudol i’n comisiynydd plant, y bydd amser yn cael ei neilltuo?
I agree. Rosemary Butler and I were extremely disappointed to see the headline today, Rosemary in particular, given her responsibility for children and young people in Wales. I am grateful for your comments, particularly as we discussed children in the debate on public health yesterday. I announced that we were supporting Child Safe Wales as an example of how we were addressing the issue of safeguarding children as far as health is concerned.
Yr wyf yn cytuno. Yr oedd Rosemary Butler a minnau’n siomedig eithriadol o weld y pennawd heddiw, yn enwedig Rosemary, o ystyried ei chyfrifoldeb dros blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau, yn enwedig gan inni drafod plant yn y ddadl ar iechyd cyhoeddus ddoe. Cyhoeddais ein bod yn cefnogi Diogelu Plant Cymru fel enghraifft o’r ffordd yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael â’r mater o ddiogelu plant cyn belled ag y mae iechyd yn y cwestiwn.
It is vital that we get the message across to the media and the people of Wales that the children’s commissioner will be a first for Wales. It has the support of all the parties. The Labour manifesto stated that we would have a children’s commissioner. We intend to have one and that is backed by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. David Melding and his party support it as well. We are moving forward, with the Committee taking evidence and meeting children in Wales. We have further evidence to take. The First Secretary has written to the Secretary of State for Wales, Paul Murphy, regarding finding time in legislation and I am following that through.
Mae’n holl bwysig ein bod yn cyfleu’r neges i’r cyfryngau a phobl Cymru y bydd y comisiynydd plant yn gam cwbl arloesol yng Nghymru. Mae pob plaid yn cefnogi’r fenter. Nodai maniffesto Llafur y byddem yn cael comisiynydd plant. Yr ydym yn bwriadu cael un a chefnogir hynny gan Blaid Cymru a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae David Melding a’i blaid hefyd yn gefnogol. Yr ydym yn symud ymlaen, gyda’r Pwyllgor yn cymryd tystiolaeth ac yn cwrdd â phlant yng Nghymru. Mae gennym fwy o dystiolaeth i’w chymryd. Mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi ysgrifennu at Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Paul Murphy, ynglŷn â chanfod amser o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth ac yr wyf innau’n ymhel â hynny.
The commitment is there. We have allocated £100,000 for a children’s commissioner in our draft budget this year. This is another example of Wales taking the lead. We can get this underway this year and I am looking forward to further discussions. It is at the top of my list of priorities, which demonstrates that this Government and this Assembly are backing children all the way.
Mae’r ymrwymiad yno. Yr ydym wedi dyrannu £100,000 ar gyfer comisiynydd plant yn ein cyllideb ddrafft eleni. Dyma enghraifft arall o Gymru’n arwain y ffordd. Gallwn sefydlu’r cynllun eleni ac edrychaf ymlaen at drafodaethau pellach. Mae ar frig fy rhestr flaenoriaethau, sydd yn dangos bod y Llywodraeth hon a’r Cynulliad hwn o blaid plant bob cam o’r ffordd.
Does the Assembly Secretary acknowledge that much good practice exists in Wales and that there are many dedicated social workers who offer constructive support and training to foster carers?
A yw Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad yn cydnabod bod llawer o arfer da yng Nghymru a bod llawer o weithwyr cymdeithasol ymroddedig sydd yn cynnig cefnogaeth adeiladol a hyfforddiant i ofalwyr maeth?
Absolutely, David. I am glad that you made that point. New standards for foster care were introduced in November of last year, providing a code of practice on the recruitment, assessment, approval, training and management and support of foster carers. That is in the hands of social workers and local authority social services departments. The Care Standards Bill will also introduce the inspection of independent fostering services.
Yn bendant, David. Yr wyf yn falch ichi wneud y pwynt yna. Cyflwynwyd safonau newydd ar gyfer gofal maeth fis Tachwedd y llynedd, gan roi cod ymarfer ar gyfer recriwtio, asesu, cymeradwyo, hyfforddi a rheoli a chefnogi gofalwyr maeth. Mae hynny yn nwylo gweithwyr cymdeithasol ac adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yr awdurdodau lleol. Bydd y Mesur Safonau Gofal hefyd yn cyflwyno trefn i arolygu gwasanaethau maethu annibynnol.
We must also recognise that the Assembly is now putting additional money, beyond our revenue support grant, into children in need. The Children First programme is transforming local authority services for children in need and in care: £5 million were made available this year. We expect at least one third of the announced increase in social services expenditure for next year to be invested in targeted improvements to children’s services in line with Children First. In addition, Sure Start has an important role to play, including supporting foster carers and the needs and rights of looked-after children in Wales.
Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd fod y Cynulliad yn darparu arian ychwanegol, tu hwnt i’n grant cynnal refeniw, at blant mewn angen. Mae’r rhaglen Plant yn Gyntaf yn gweddnewid gwasanaethau’r awdurdodau lleol i blant mewn angen ac mewn gofal: darparwyd o leiaf £5 miliwn eleni. Yr ydym yn disgwyl i draean o leiaf o’r cynnydd a gyhoeddwyd ar gyfer gwariant y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol y flwyddyn nesaf gael ei fuddsoddi mewn gwelliannau a dargedir i’r gwasanaethau plant, yn unol â Phlant yn Gyntaf. Yn ogystal, mae gan Cychwyn Cadarn rôl bwysig i’w chwarae, gan gynnwys cefnogi gofalwyr maeth ac anghenion a hawliau plant dan ofal yng Nghymru.
Buddsoddi mewn Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol
Investment in Social Services
How much extra cash, expressed as both a cash total and a percentage, has the Secretary for Health and Social Services asked local authorities to invest in social services in 2000-01? (OAQ3052)
Faint o arian ychwanegol fel cyfanswm arian ac fel canran y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi gofyn i awdurdodau lleol ei fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn 2000-01? (OAQ3052)
The extra cash totals £51 million, which is equivalent to 9 per cent.
Mae’r arian ychwanegol yn rhoi cyfanswm o £51 miliwn, sydd yn cyfateb i 9 y cant.
How much of this will be met by revenue support grant and how much of it is to be met by council tax, which I have referred to in the past as Welsh stealth tax? This is a cause of great concern to Powys County Council and probably to many other councils.
Faint o’r arian hwn a ddarperir drwy’r grant cynnal refeniw a faint a ddarperir allan o’r dreth gyngor, y cyfeiriais ati yn y gorffennol fel treth lechwraidd ar Gymru? Mae hyn yn peri pryder mawr i Gyngor Sir Powys ac i lawer o gynghorau eraill mae’n siŵr.
We are expecting £51 million from the revenue support grant, which is equivalent to 9 per cent. This is a substantial increase. It takes into account the strong representations that we have received, from the Welsh Local Government Association and others, that a priority should be given to more expenditure on social services. We cannot anticipate future Assembly budget decisions, but this is a substantial improvement on the current year. Spending provisions by councils must take local priorities into account. Councils will take account of the additions from the council tax, on which they decide.
Yr ydym yn disgwyl £51 miliwn o’r grant cynnal refeniw, sydd yn cyfateb i 9 y cant. Mae hwn yn gynnydd sylweddol. Mae’n cymryd i ystyriaeth y sylwadau cryf yr ydym wedi eu derbyn, gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac eraill, o blaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i wario mwy ar y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Ni allwn ddarogan y penderfyniadau a wneir gan y Cynulliad i’r dyfodol ar y gyllideb, ond mae hwn yn welliant sylweddol o’i gymharu â’r flwyddyn hon. Rhaid i ddarpariaethau gwario’r cynghorau adlewyrchu blaenoriaethau lleol. Bydd y cynghorau yn cymryd yr ychwanegiadau o’r dreth, y maent hwy yn penderfynu arnynt, i ystyriaeth.
There is only £4.6 million of new money recurrent, despite the figure that the Secretary gave. Do you accept that none of this pitiful amount of new money will ease the problem of bed-blocking, which was a major cause of this year’s winter crisis? Elderly people were kept in hospital because social services departments in Wales could not fund a discharge into residential homes for the elderly.
Nid oes ond £4.6 miliwn o arian newydd sydd yn ailddigwydd, er gwaethaf y ffigur a roddodd yr Ysgrifennydd. A ydych yn derbyn na fydd dim o’r swm truenus hwn o arian newydd yn lliniaru’r broblem o welyau wedi’u blocio, sef un o brif achosion argyfwng y gaeaf eleni? Cadwyd pobl oedrannus yn yr ysbyty gan na allai adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Cymru dalu i’w rhyddhau i gartrefi preswyl ar gyfer yr henoed.
As you know, there was a 4.6 per cent above inflation increase in grant from the Assembly in the overall revenue support grant. Local government revenue funding is not hypothecated but we have told local government that we expect, within the parameters of the settlement, that increase in social services. Spending on social services in Wales varies tremendously from one local authority to another. Local authorities must take responsibility for addressing the social services needs of children and adults. In Wales over recent weeks there have been variations in bed-blocking relating to the money available at the local government end. Some local authorities have good arrangements, and the taskforce will look at them.
Fel y gwyddoch, cafwyd cynnydd o 4.6 y cant uwchlaw chwyddiant yn y grant oddi wrth y Cynulliad o fewn cyfanswm y grant cynnal refeniw. Nid yw arian refeniw llywodraeth leol wedi ei neilltuo ond yr ydym wedi dweud wrth lywodraeth leol ein bod, o fewn paramedrau’r setliad hwn, yn disgwyl cynnydd o’r maint yma yn y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae’r gwariant ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol yng Nghymru yn amrywio’n fawr o un awdurdod lleol i’r llall. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ysgwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb am fynd i’r afael ag angen plant ac oedolion am wasanaethau cymdeithasol. Yng Nghymru dros yr wythnosau diwethaf, cafwyd amrywiadau ar flocio gwelyau ar sail yr arian a oedd ar gael gan lywodraeth leol. Mae gan rai awdurdodau lleol drefniadau da, a bydd y tasglu yn edrych arnynt.
We are providing extra grants to local authorities next year. There will be £11 million for Sure Start, £10 million for the Children and Youth Partnership and, through the carers strategy, an additional £3 million for respite care. That is in addition to the funding for social services and the £51 million that we expect local authorities to take on board. This is a partnership with local government on the delivery of shared aims. It is up to local government to look at their priorities, but the initial social services budget set in 1999-2000 by local authorities was £568 million. I will write to local authorities to say that, on average, we expect increases of around 9 per cent, with at least a third of the increase going to children’s services. We must also move forward on improved hospital discharge.
Yr ydym yn darparu grantiau ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol y flwyddyn nesaf. Bydd £11 miliwn i’r cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn, £10 miliwn i’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc a, thrwy’r strategaeth i gynhalwyr, £3 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer gofal seibiant. Mae hyn yn ychwanegol at y cyllid ar gyfer y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r £51 miliwn y disgwyliwn i awdurdodau lleol gadw ato. Partneriaeth gyda llywodraeth leol yw hon i wireddu amcanion a rennir. Mater i lywodraeth leol yw edrych ar eu blaenoriaethau, ond y gyllideb gychwynnol i’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a bennwyd gan yr awdurdodau lleol yn 1999-2000 oedd £568 miliwn. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at yr awdurdodau lleol i ddweud ein bod, ar gyfartaledd, yn disgwyl codiadau o oddeutu 9 y cant, gydag o leiaf un rhan o dair o’r cynnydd yn mynd ar wasanaethau plant. Rhaid inni symud yn ein blaen hefyd ar wella’r trefniadau rhyddhau o’r ysbyty.
Yesterday you were full of praise for how the Powys Health Care NHS Trust was handling consultation about the reorganisation of services. Central to the plan that the trust wishes to implement is removing bed-blockers out of the system to ensure that the reduction in beds is met. What discussion have you had to ensure that the social services department in Powys can meet that demand and has sufficient money to clear bed-blockers out of the system?
Ddoe yr oeddech yn llawn canmoliaeth i’r ffordd yr oedd Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gofal Iechyd Powys yn cynnal yr ymgynghori ynglŷn ag ad-drefnu gwasanaethau. Elfen ganolog o’r cynllun y mae’r ymddiriedolaeth am ei roi ar waith yw cael gwared â gwelyau wedi eu blocio o’r system i sicrhau y cyflawnir y gostyngiad yn nifer y gwelyau. Pa drafodaeth yr ydych chi wedi ei chael i sicrhau y gall adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Powys fodloni’r galw a bod ganddi ddigon o arian i dynnu’r rhai sydd yn blocio gwelyau allan o’r system?
The Assembly is moving forward in partnership. The fact that I am the Secretary for Health and Social Services and that we have a Health and Social Services Committee is important to breaking down the barriers between health and social care. I recently had a good meeting with the Powys Health Care NHS Trust, the Powys local health group and the Powys County Council social services department. They see that the way forward in Powys is for those organisations to work in partnership to break down those barriers so that they can plan. As I described in my statement last week, authorities where local government and their local health providers and the voluntary sector are working well together, are planning for hospital discharge and their needs in terms of social care, hospital care and community services at the beginning of the financial year. Powys has led the way in that kind of forward-looking planning and inter-agency co-operation, and should be seen as a model for the rest of Wales. Local authorities should look at their spending on social services in partnership with their health authorities.
Mae’r Cynulliad yn symud ymlaen mewn partneriaeth. Mae’r ffaith fy mod yn Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a bod gennym Bwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn bwysig er mwyn dymchwel y rhwystrau sydd yn bodoli rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Cefais gyfarfod da yn ddiweddar gydag Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gofal Iechyd Powys, grŵp iechyd lleol Powys ac adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Cyngor Sir Powys. Gwelant mai’r ffordd ymlaen ym Mhowys yw i’r cyrff hyn weithio mewn partneriaeth i ddymchwel y rhwystrau fel y gallant gynllunio. Fel y disgrifiais yn fy natganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, mae awdurdodau lle mae llywodraeth leol a’u darparwyr iechyd lleol a’r sector gwirfoddol yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd yn dda yn cynllunio ar gyfer rhyddhau o’r ysbyty a’u hanghenion o ran gofal cymdeithasol, gofal ysbyty a gwasanaethau cymuned ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol. Mae Powys wedi arwain y ffordd yn y math hwn o flaen-gynllunio a chydweithredu rhyngasiantaethol, a dylid ei hystyried yn fodel i weddill Cymru. Dylai awdurdodau lleol edrych ar eu gwariant ar y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol mewn partneriaeth â’u hawdurdodau iechyd.
During some of the worst days of the flu crisis over Christmas, health and social services in some areas held daily meetings together. That is the kind of partnership that we want operating on the ground, as well as strategically, and it is how we can break down this barrier between health and social care, which is so important in dealing with the point about hospital discharge.
Yn ystod rhai o ddiwrnodau gwaethaf yr argyfwng ffliw dros y Nadolig, cynhaliai’r gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol mewn rhai ardaloedd gyfarfodydd beunyddiol gyda’i gilydd. Dyna’r math o bartneriaeth yr ydym am ei chael allan yn y maes, yn ogystal ag yn strategol, a dyna sut y gallwn ddymchwel y rhwystrau hyn rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, sydd mor bwysig wrth ddelio â’r pwynt ynglŷn â rhyddhau o’r ysbyty.
Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg (Cynigion ar gyfer Safle)
East Glamorgan Hospital (Site Proposals)
Can the Secretary for Health and Social Services give details of the proposals for the site of East Glamorgan Hospital? (OAQ3113)
A all yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol roi manylion y cynigion ar gyfer safle Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg? (OAQ3113)
Services at East Glamorgan Hospital transferred to the Royal Glamorgan Hospital on 29 November, and I was pleased to visit it the following day. The main hospital at East Glamorgan has closed and the site has been placed on the market. The mental health unit will remain on the site until funding is available to enable it to be reprovided. The main East Glamorgan Hospital site was offered for sale on the open market through a formal tender process. The land will be sold to the highest bidder identified by the tender process, and formal conveyance is underway.
Trosglwyddodd gwasanaethau Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg i Ysbyty Frenhinol Morgannwg ar 29 Tachwedd, ac yr oedd yn bleser imi ymweld â hi y diwrnod canlynol. Mae prif ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg wedi cau ac mae’r safle wedi ei roi ar y farchnad. Bydd yr uned iechyd meddwl yn aros ar y safle hyd nes y bydd cyllid ar gael i allu ei hailddarparu. Cynigiwyd prif safle Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg ar werth ar y farchnad agored drwy broses dendro ffurfiol. Caiff y tir ei werthu i’r bidiwr uchaf a ddaeth i’r amlwg drwy’r broses dendro, ac mae’r trosglwyddiad ffurfiol yn mynd rhagddo.
You will be aware from questions that I have asked the Secretary for the Environment and Local Government, that this hospital site is on a road with extraordinary transport pressures. Will you therefore join me in asking the Secretary for the Environment and Local Government to consider allocating funding for the Church Village bypass, to ensure that the hospital sale can go ahead effectively and that there will not be any planning restrictions on building houses on the site?
Byddwch yn gwybod o’r cwestiynau yr wyf wedi eu gofyn i Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol fod safle’r ysbyty ar ffordd sydd dan bwysau trafnidiaeth eithriadol. A wnewch chi felly ymuno â mi i ofyn i Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol ystyried neilltuo cyllid ar gyfer ffordd osgoi Gartholwg, i sicrhau bod gwerthiant yr ysbyty yn gallu mynd rhagddo’n effeithiol ac na fydd unrhyw gyfyngiadau cynllunio ar adeiladu tai ar y safle?
I do not like debates which pit roads against health. However, I want the receipts from the sale of the East Glamorgan Hospital site. The sale will generate much-needed funds. We have talked about rebuilding our capital programme: we need to do that by investing the income that we receive from the sale of these sites into the NHS in Wales. The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government is not here at the moment, but I am sure that he will take your views into account.
Nid wyf yn hoffi dadleuon sydd yn rhoi ffyrdd ac iechyd benben â’i gilydd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf am gael y derbyniadau o werthiant safle Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg. Bydd y gwerthiant yn creu arian y mae mawr ei angen. Yr ydym wedi sôn am ail-lunio ein rhaglen gyfalaf: mae angen inni wneud hynny drwy fuddsoddi’r incwm a dderbyniwn o werthu’r safleoedd hyn yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Nid yw Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol yma ar hyn o bryd, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn cymryd eich barn i ystyriaeth.
I am concerned that the health authority will lose hundreds of thousands of pounds because the site has been sold in two parts. More importantly, I am concerned about the psychiatric unit, which remains isolated on the East Glamorgan site. The psychiatric service has been the Cinderella of the health service for far too long. When will the unit, which will have 17 desperately needed extra beds when it is moved, be moved to the Royal Glamorgan Hospital? If the unit does not move before 2002, the health service will incur a cost of about £1 million in enabling the old buildings to comply with fire and health and safety regulations.
Yr wyf yn gofidio y bydd yr awdurdod iechyd yn colli cannoedd o filoedd o bunnoedd am fod y safle yn cael ei werthu mewn dwy ran. Yn bwysicach, yr wyf yn gofidio am yr uned seiciatryddol, sydd yn aros ar ei phen ei hun ar safle Dwyrain Morgannwg. Bu’r gwasanaeth seiciatryddol yn Sinderela’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn rhy hir o lawer. Pa bryd y caiff yr uned, a fydd yn ennill 17 gwely ychwanegol y mae angen dirfawr amdanynt, ei symud i Ysbyty Frenhinol Morgannwg? Os nad yw’r uned yn symud cyn 2002, bydd y gwasanaeth iechyd yn wynebu cost o oddeutu £1 miliwn i sicrhau bod yr hen adeiladau yn cydymffurfio â rheoliadau tân ac iechyd a diogelwch.
As I said in my first response to the question, the mental health unit will remain on the site until funding is available to enable it to be reprovided. I was concerned that the unit was remaining on the site, but further money was put in to ensure that the site was secure and to support parents, patients and carers using the site and the services. The site will not be disposed of until a reprovision of those services has been found. Only then will the site be released as surplus and disposed of on the open market.
Fel y dywedais yn fy ymateb cyntaf i’r cwestiwn, bydd yr uned iechyd meddwl yn aros ar y safle hyd nes y bydd cyllid ar gael i’w hailddarparu. Yr oeddwn yn gofidio bod yr uned yn aros ar y safle, ond darparwyd mwy o arian i sicrhau bod y safle’n ddiogel ac i gefnogi rhieni, cleifion a chynhalwyr sydd yn defnyddio’r safle a’r gwasanaethau. Ni chaiff y safle ei werthu hyd nes y bydd y gwasanaethau hyn wedi cael eu hailddarparu. Dim ond bryd hynny y caiff y safle ei ryddhau fel un nad oes ei angen mwyach, a’i waredu ar y farchnad agored.
I regret that I was unable to make the funding available, but proposals to provide a new mental health unit are being considered alongside other bids for capital funds. Again we return to the importance of rebuilding our capital programme. Officials are examining options for the allocation of resources for the reprovision of the mental health unit, but up to £12 million will be needed to do that. The main hospital site was offered for sale on the open market by a formal tender process. Six bids were received, and with the approval of the Pontypridd and Rhondda NHS Trust and officials, we are pursuing the highest bid, from McAlpine.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf na allwn ddarparu’r cyllid, ond mae cynigion i sefydlu uned iechyd meddwl newydd yn cael eu hystyried ochr yn ochr â bidiau eraill am arian cyfalaf. Deuwn yn ôl unwaith yn rhagor at bwysigrwydd ail-lunio ein rhaglen gyfalaf. Mae’r swyddogion yn archwilio’r opsiynau er dyrannu adnoddau i ailddarparu’r uned iechyd meddwl, ond bydd angen hyd at £12 miliwn i wneud hynny. Cynigiwyd safle’r prif ysbyty ar werth ar y farchnad agored drwy broses dendro ffurfiol. Derbyniwyd chwe bid a, chyda chymeradwyaeth Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Pontypridd a’r Rhondda a’r swyddogion, yr ydym yn mynd ar drywydd y bid uchaf, gan McAlpine.
Will Jane confirm that any moneys raised from the sale of hospital sites will be directly allocated into the much depleted NHS capital modernisation fund?
A wnaiff Jane gadarnhau y bydd unrhyw arian a godir drwy werthu safleoedd ysbytai yn cael ei neilltuo’n uniongyrchol i gronfa foderneiddio gyfalaf yr NHS sydd wedi ei dihysbyddu’n sylweddol.
Absolutely. That is money we get from our receipts. Edwina Hart and myself are also considering the issue of maximising capital receipts as well as those from the disposal of surplus property. It is a vital injection of funds into our rebuilt capital programme.
Yn bendant. Arian yw hwn a gawn o’n derbyniadau. Mae Edwina Hart a minnau hefyd yn ystyried y mater o chwyddo derbyniadau cyfalaf i’r eithaf yn ychwanegol at yr hyn a geir drwy werthu tir ac eiddo dros ben. Mae’n chwistrelliad hanfodol o arian i mewn i’n rhaglen gyfalaf ar ei newydd wedd.
Can you offer the patients of the mental health unit and their carers a more concrete guarantee of when they will be moved to the new unit than just saying that it will be when funding will be available? How confident are you that the receipts that you have just mentioned and the generous levels of receipts that you expect to receive from capital sales will be reached? If they are not reached, where will that shortfall in the health budget come from?
A fedrwch chi gynnig gwarant mwy pendant i gleifion yr uned iechyd meddwl a’u cynhalwyr o pa bryd y cânt eu symud i’r uned newydd, yn hytrach na dim ond dweud y bydd yn digwydd pan fydd arian ar gael? Pa mor hyderus ydych chi y gwireddir y derbyniadau yr ydych newydd gyfeirio atynt a’r lefelau hael o dderbyniadau a ddisgwyliwch o werthiannau cyfalaf? Os na wireddir hwy, o ble y daw’r diffyg hwnnw yn y gyllideb iechyd?
As you know, we have put more money into the capital programme and are rebuilding it. We are considering ways to fund this new mental health unit. It is being considered as part of the capital modernisation fund programme and officials are looking at priorities. As we said yesterday, there are many priorities. I am glad that mental health is coming to the top of the Assembly’s agenda of concerns and priorities.
Fel y gwyddoch, yr ydym wedi rhoi mwy o arian i mewn i’r rhaglen gyfalaf ac mae’n cael ei hail-lunio. Yr ydym yn ystyried ffyrdd o gyllido’r uned iechyd meddwl newydd hon. Mae’n cael ei hystyried fel rhan o raglen y gronfa foderneiddio gyfalaf ac mae’r swyddogion yn ystyried y blaenoriaethau. Fel y dywedwyd ddoe, mae llawer o flaenoriaethau. Yr wyf yn falch bod iechyd meddwl yn dod i frig agenda’r Cynulliad o ran pryderon a blaenoriaethau.
I met the director of Mind Cymru today to discuss the importance of investing in improved mental health facilities. Rest assured, I will look carefully at how we can bring forward the reprovision of this mental health unit and reprovide services as we would like to do in the long term. It will be a question of priorities, and I am glad that the Health and Social Services Committee will consider our new adult mental health strategy tomorrow and bring it to the Assembly’s attention, along with the child and adolescent mental health strategy. The Assembly can then note the importance of mental health services and realise that it is not a Cinderella. It is high on our list of priorities.
Cyfarfûm â chyfarwyddwr Mind Cymru heddiw i drafod pwysigrwydd buddsoddi mewn gwell cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl. Gallwch fod yn dawel eich meddwl y byddaf yn ystyried yn ofalus sut y gallwn dynnu’r gwaith o ailddarparu’r uned iechyd meddwl hon ymlaen ac ailddarparu’r gwasanaethau fel y byddem yn dymuno ei wneud yn y tymor hir. Bydd yn gwestiwn o flaenoriaethau, ac yr wyf yn falch y bydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ystyried ein strategaeth newydd ar iechyd meddwl oedolion yfory gan ei dwyn i sylw’r Cynulliad, ynghyd â’r strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a’r rhai yn eu harddegau. Gall y Cynulliad wedyn nodi pwysigrwydd y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl a sylweddoli nad Sinderela mohonynt. Maent yn uchel ar ein rhestr flaenoriaethau.
Cynllun i Werthu Canolfan Lôn Abaty
Scheme to Sell the Abbey Road Centre
What discussions has Jane Hutt had regarding North Wales Health Authority’s scheme to sell the Abbey Road centre in Bangor? (OAQ3115)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Jane Hutt ynglŷn â chynllun Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru i werthu Canolfan Lôn Abaty ym Mangor? (OAQ3115)
We discussed this yesterday, Christine. I recognise that the Abbey Road centre plays a valuable role in providing a base for voluntary organisations in Bangor, many of which provide mental health facilities. I have kept in close touch with the centre on the problems regarding the expiry of its lease. We are trying to find a solution that is acceptable to all parties. I wrote today to many Members about this. A meeting will be held on Monday 31 January between Assembly officials and the North Wales Health Authority and Gwynedd Council. I hope that these discussions will lead to a resolution of the current difficulties and enable the voluntary services sector to be maintained and continued.
Trafodasom hyn ddoe, Christine. Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod Canolfan Lôn Abaty yn chwarae rôl werthfawr fel canolfan i fudiadau gwirfoddol ym Mangor, llawer ohonynt yn darparu cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl. Yr wyf wedi cadw mewn cysylltiad agos â’r ganolfan ynghylch y problemau sydd yn deillio o’r ffaith fod ei phrydles yn dod i ben. Yr ydym yn ceisio canfod ateb sydd yn dderbyniol i bob ochr. Ysgrifennais at lawer o’r Aelodau heddiw ynglŷn â hyn. Cynhelir cyfarfod ddydd Llun 31 Ionawr rhwng swyddogion y Cynulliad ac Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru a Chyngor Gwynedd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y trafodaethau hyn yn arwain at ddatrys yr anawsterau cyfredol fel y gellir cynnal a pharhau â gwasanaethau’r sector gwirfoddol.
Thank you for your interest. This situation has arisen because of the directive issued by the Welsh Office to health authorities that they should sell their properties. Would you consider issuing guidance to other health authorities so that similar situations do not arise in other parts of Wales?
Diolch ichi am eich diddordeb. Mae’r sefyllfa hon wedi codi oherwydd y gyfarwyddeb a gyhoeddwyd gan y Swyddfa Gymreig i awdurdodau iechyd y dylent werthu eu heiddo. A fyddech yn ystyried cyhoeddi canllawiau i awdurdodau iechyd eraill fel na fydd sefyllfaoedd tebyg yn codi mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru?
As I said yesterday, although health authorities are encouraged to dispose of property no longer required for health services, the North Wales Health Authority is not being pressed by the Assembly to do so. That is a matter for health authorities to determine. It would have been inappropriate for us to require them to retain the building in the present financial climate had they not considered cost and disposal and service needs. This has helpfully shown that we need to clarify the guidelines. The Assembly must look to maximise income across the board, as we described in relation to the previous question, in terms of income receipt. We must also consider the impact on services that are perhaps not provided by the health authority but by the voluntary sector and partners-services that meet health improvement needs. That is key. If services of this kind are provided within the health improvement programme, that strengthens the case for keeping property in such a situation.
Fel y dywedais ddoe, er bod awdurdodau iechyd yn cael eu hannog i waredu eiddo nad oes ei angen mwyach ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd, nid yw’r Cynulliad yn pwyso ar Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru i wneud hyn. Mater i’r awdurdodau iechyd benderfynu arno yw hwn. Amhriodol fyddai inni fod wedi dweud wrthynt am gadw’r adeilad yn yr hinsawdd ariannol bresennol pe na baent wedi ystyried costau a gwaredu ac anghenion gwasanaeth. Bu hyn yn fuddiol am ei fod wedi dangos inni fod angen gwneud y canllawiau’n fwy eglur. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad geisio chwyddo’i incwm ym mhob maes, fel y disgrifiwyd yng nghyswllt y cwestiwn blaenorol, o safbwynt incwm derbyniadau. Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried yr effaith ar wasanaethau nad ydynt efallai yn cael eu darparu gan yr awdurdod iechyd ond gan y sector gwirfoddol a gwasanaethau-partneriaid sydd yn diwallu anghenion gwella iechyd. Dyna’r allwedd. Os darperir gwasanaethau o’r math hwn o fewn y rhaglen gwella iechyd, mae hynny’n cryfhau’r achos dros gadw eiddo mewn sefyllfa fel hon.
Diolchaf i Jane am y llythyr a’r wybodaeth am y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar bod y Cynulliad wedi arwain ar y mater hwn a gobeithiaf y bydd datrysiad buan i’r anhawster.
I thank Jane for the letter and the information about the latest situation. I am grateful that the Assembly has taken a lead on this matter and I hope that there will be a swift resolution to the problem.
Fel popeth arall, wrth inni dderbyn a gwneud ymholiadau, mae enghreifftiau eraill o’r math hwn o ganolfannau sydd dan fygythiad wedi codi. Mae dwy ohonynt—un ym Mangor ac un mewn etholaeth gyfagos. Mae’n amlwg bod diffyg cydweithrediad a dealltwriaeth rhwng y sectorau. Cyfeiriais at y pwynt hwn yr wythnos diwethaf. Nid wyf yn siŵr bellach beth yw union rôl awdurdodau iechyd yn nhermau iechyd meddwl. Mae’n ymddangos fod rhyw ddatblygiadau ar droed yn y maes hwn. Yn sicr, nid oes unrhyw gydweithio. Gofynnaf ichi ymchwilio i’r mater hwn ac adrodd yn ôl i ni. Mae rhyw ddatblygiadau ar y gweill ac fe hoffwn gael mwy o wybodaeth.
As with everything else, as we receive and make enquiries, other examples of such centres under threat have come to light. There are two of them—one in Bangor and one in a nearby constituency. It is obvious that there is a lack of co-operation and understanding between the sectors. I referred to this point last week. I am no longer sure about the exact role of health authorities in terms of mental health. It appears that there are some developments afoot in this area. There is certainly no co-operation. I ask you to look into this matter and report back to us. There are some developments happening and I would like more information.
I will certainly look into that. Given the shortage of time, I will not respond in full now. However, this goes back to the point that we have a partnership approach with the voluntary sector. It is important that the North Wales Health Authority develops a mental health improvement programme. When we contemplate any sort of policy or project, we must look strategically at need and identification of need in terms of supporting and commissioning services. Therefore, we must act strategically and in partnership. We must also look at need from a community perspective. Thank you for that point. I will respond fully in writing, and perhaps take the matter up with the Health and Social Services Committee.
Byddaf yn sicr yn ymchwilio i hynny. Gan fod amser yn fyr, ni roddaf ateb llawn yn awr. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yn mynd yn ôl at y pwynt ein bod yn gweithio ar ffurf partneriaeth gyda’r sector gwirfoddol. Mae’n bwysig bod Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru yn datblygu rhaglen i wella iechyd meddwl. Wrth ystyried unrhyw fath o bolisi neu brosiect, rhaid inni edrych yn strategol ar angen ac ar ganfod anghenion o safbwynt cefnogi a chomisiynu gwasanaethau. Felly, rhaid inni weithredu’n strategol ac mewn partneriaeth. Rhaid inni edrych hefyd ar angen o safbwynt cymunedol. Diolch ichi am godi’r pwynt. Byddaf yn ymateb yn llawn ar bapur, ac efallai yn codi’r mater gyda’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.
I want to follow on from the point about Abbey Road. Seven days ago, there was certainly a letter from the health authority, which said that it was terminating the contract and selling the centre. The co-ordinator, Mrs Joan Ellis Jones, referred to redundancies and these were passed to the Assembly. We have now heard this good news that there will be a stay of execution.
Yr wyf am ddilyn ymlaen o’r pwynt am Lôn Abaty. Saith niwrnod yn ôl, yr oedd yna yn sicr lythyr oddi wrth yr awdurdod iechyd, yn dweud ei fod yn terfynu’r contract ac yn gwerthu’r ganolfan. Cyfeiriodd y cydlynydd, Mrs Joan Ellis Jones, at golli swyddi a phasiwyd y rhain i’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn awr wedi clywed y newydd da hwn y gallai fod dihangfa.
You know that I wrote to you about this matter, but did not receive an answer. I have also written about the problem with the north-west Wales community health council. I ask for north Wales to be given the same consideration as the rest of Wales in terms of its health problems.
Gwyddoch imi ysgrifennu atoch am y mater hwn, ond ni dderbyniais ateb. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ysgrifennu am y broblem gyda chyngor iechyd cymuned gogledd-orllewin Cymru. Gofynnaf am i ogledd Cymru gael yr un ystyriaeth â gweddill Cymru o safbwynt ei phroblemau iechyd.
Those two questions are of an entirely different nature. You know that I have responded on the Abbey Road issue. One of the houses is owned by Gwynedd Council, so this is not just about North Wales Health Authority. I have reassured people that our officials are trying to find a solution to protect the organisations involved. However, there must be partnership.
Mae’r ddau gwestiwn yna o natur gwbl wahanol. Gwyddoch fy mod wedi ymateb ar fater Lôn Abaty. Mae un o’r tai yn eiddo i Gyngor Gwynedd, felly nid dim ond ag Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru y mae a wnelo hyn. Yr wyf wedi rhoi sicrwydd i bobl bod ein swyddogion yn ceisio canfod ateb i ddiogelu’r mudiadau dan sylw. Fodd bynnag, rhaid wrth bartneriaeth.
On community health councils, I assure you that we are now moving ahead with their re-configuration and development. That is positive. I think you can expect to receive an announcement within the next fortnight. I am sure that the Assembly will be pleased about that.
Ynglŷn â chynghorau iechyd cymuned, gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod yn symud ymlaen bellach i’w had-drefnu a’u datblygu. Mae hynny’n bendant. Credaf y gallwch ddisgwyl cyhoeddiad o fewn y pythefnos nesaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Cynulliad yn falch o hynny.
Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16
Questions to the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training
Perthnasedd Adroddiad Cubie i Gymru (Trafodaethau)
Relevance of the Cubie Report to Wales (Discussions)
What discussions has the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training had regarding the possible relevance to Wales of any of the findings noted in the Cubie report? (OAQ3063)
Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 wedi’u cael ynglŷn â pherthnasedd posibl unrhyw ganfyddiadau a nodir yn Adroddiad Cubie i Gymru? (OAQ3063)
Tom Middlehurst The Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training spoken in English p. 14
Tom Middlehurst Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
None. The Cubie report was commissioned for the Scottish Executive following a review of tuition fees and financial support arrangements for students normally resident in Scotland who participate in further and higher education courses anywhere in the UK.
Dim. Comisiynwyd adroddiad Cubie gan Weithrediaeth yr Alban yn dilyn arolwg o ffïoedd dysgu a’r trefniadau i ddarparu cefnogaeth ariannol i fyfyrwyr sydd yn byw fel arfer yn yr Alban ac sydd yn ymgymryd â chyrsiau addysg bellach ac uwch mewn unrhyw ran o’r DU.
I will repeat the oft-repeated statement that tuition fees and general student support policies are not devolved matters. The Department for Education and Employment takes the lead in such matters.
Ailadroddaf y datganiad sydd wedi ei lefaru gynifer o weithiau nad yw ffïoedd dysgu a pholisïau cyffredinol ar gefnogi myfyrwyr yn faterion sydd wedi eu datganoli. Yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth sydd yn arwain ar faterion o’r fath.
Now that the Liberal Democrats, in their power-sharing agreement in Scotland, have ensured an end to tuition fees there, is it not right for the Assembly to exert its influence to ensure that no student in Wales should be saddled with fees? Such fees make higher education a lottery based upon income, rather than a vital part of the future economic wellbeing of Wales. Are you prepared to take this case to the Labour Government in London and say that Welsh students deserve rights equal to those of their counterparts in Scotland?
Gan fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn eu cytundeb i rannu grym yn yr Alban, wedi sicrhau bellach y rhoddir terfyn ar ffïoedd dysgu yno, onid priodol yw i’r Cynulliad arddel ei ddylanwad i sicrhau na ddylai unrhyw fyfyriwr yng Nghymru gael ei drethu gan ffïoedd? Mae ffïoedd o’r fath yn gwneud loteri yn seiliedig ar incwm o addysg uwch, yn hytrach na’i bod yn rhan annatod o les economaidd Cymru i’r dyfodol. A ydych yn barod i fynd â’r achos hwn i’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn Llundain a dweud bod myfyrwyr Cymru yn haeddu hawliau cydradd â’r hyn sydd gan eu cyd-fyfyrwyr yn yr Alban?
The student support arrangements in England and Wales are holding up very well indeed. There is evidence to suggest that they are working well and that more money is going into universities and colleges. The system is fair and equitable to students, families and taxpayers, and tuition fees are still paid for those in greatest need. There is a fairer repayment system and there is also a fairer loan repayment system, which relates repayments directly to income.
Mae’r trefniadau i gefnogi myfyrwyr yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn dal eu tir yn dda iawn. Mae tystiolaeth i awgrymu eu bod yn gweithio’n dda a bod mwy o arian yn mynd i brifysgolion a cholegau. Mae’r system yn deg a chydradd i fyfyrwyr, teuluoedd a threthdalwyr, ac mae’r ffïoedd dysgu yn dal i gael eu talu dros y rheini sydd fwyaf eu hangen. Mae yna hefyd system ad-dalu decach ynghyd â system decach i ad-dalu benthyciadau, sydd yn cysylltu ad-daliadau’n uniongyrchol i incwm.
It is opportune to record the Assembly’s congratulations to David Blunkett on his announcement yesterday of further measures to support mature students and young students from disadvantaged backgrounds in particular. David Blunkett has responded positively to the evidence put before him and has made a commitment in the House of Commons. He said that he would review and monitor the outcome of applying tuition fees in England and Wales. He has done so and announced measures yesterday in the House. I commend the press release to you. I hope that you will join with the National Union of Students in welcoming the new measures.
Cyfamserol yw cofnodi llongyfarchiadau’r Cynulliad i David Blunkett ar ei gyhoeddiad ddoe y cyflwynir mesurau pellach i gefnogi myfyrwyr aeddfed a myfyrwyr ifanc o gefndiroedd difreintiedig yn arbennig. Mae David Blunkett wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol i’r dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd iddo ac wedi rhoi addewid yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Dywedodd y byddai’n adolygu a monitro canlyniad cyflwyno ffïoedd dysgu yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mae wedi gwneud hynny ac wedi cyhoeddi mesurau yn y Tŷ ddoe. Tynnaf eich sylw at y datganiad newyddion. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ymuno ag Undeb Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr i groesawu’r mesurau newydd.
Hoffwn atgoffa’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16, er nad oes gennym bwerau yng nghyd-destun ffïoedd dysgu, fod gan y Cynulliad hawl i drafod unrhyw beth sydd yn ymwneud â Chymru. Nid oes unrhyw beth yn fwy perthnasol i fyfyrwyr Cymru ar hyn o bryd na ffïoedd prifysgol. A yw Tom Middlehurst yn cefnogi’r egwyddor y dylai argymhellion Cubie fod yn rhan ganolog o arolwg y Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 ar addysg uwch yn ddiweddarach eleni? Nid yw’n bosibl inni gael trafodaeth o unrhyw werth ar addysg uwch heb drafod mynediad cydradd i addysg brifysgol i bawb yng Nghymru. Mae adroddiad Cubie yn gyfraniad gwerthfawr i’r drafodaeth hon a dylem ni yng Nghymru fanteisio’n llawn ar y gwaith a gyflawnwyd eisoes yn yr Alban.
I remind the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training that, although we do not have powers in the context of tuition fees, the Assembly has a right to discuss anything that relates to Wales. Nothing is more relevant to Welsh students at the moment than university fees. Does the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training support the principle that Cubie’s recommendations should be a central part of the Post-16 Education and Training Committee’s review of higher education later this year? It is not possible for us to have a discussion of any value on higher education without discussing equal access to university education for everyone in Wales. The Cubie report is a valuable contribution to this discussion and we in Wales should take full advantage of the work that has already been undertaken in Scotland.
I am grateful to you for reminding us that the Post-16 Education and Training Committee will undertake a review of higher education in late summer. That may well form part of the Committee’s considerations and I will be surprised if it does not. I am certain that organisations with an interest in this will make appropriate representations to the Committee, and the Assembly will have an opportunity to consider those representations.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ein hatgoffa y bydd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 yn cynnal arolwg ar addysg uwch ddiwedd yr haf. Mae’n gwbl bosibl y bydd hyn yn rhan o drafodaethau’r Pwyllgor a byddwn yn synnu pe na byddai. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd cyrff sydd â diddordeb yn hyn yn cyflwyno sylwadau priodol i’r Pwyllgor, a chaiff y Cynulliad gyfle i ystyried y sylwadau hynny.
What message does the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training have for Welsh students who, as a result of the Scottish Executive’s decision yesterday, will be treated as second-class citizens in the United Kingdom in terms of state support from September of this year?
Pa neges sydd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 i fyfyrwyr Cymru a fydd, o ganlyniad i benderfyniad Gweithrediaeth yr Alban ddoe, yn cael eu trin fel dinasyddion eilradd yn y Deyrnas Unedig o safbwynt cefnogaeth gan y wladwriaeth o fis Medi eleni ymlaen?
That belies the fact, which is that substantial support is available to students in Wales via many sources, not least a substantial increase in access funds as a consequence of yesterday’s decisions. It is worth reflecting upon the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service’s report, which shows an increase in student numbers. Tuition fees have not had a marked impact on enrolments. That is the key test. Increasingly, tuition fees are seen to be a fair and equitable means of distributing the responsibilities for funding higher education.
Mae hynny yn camliwio’r ffeithiau, sef bod cefnogaeth sylweddol ar gael i fyfyrwyr yng Nghymru o amryw ffynonellau, nid leiaf y cynnydd sylweddol mewn cronfeydd mynediad o ganlyniad i benderfyniadau ddoe. Mae’n werth pwyso a mesur adroddiad Gwasanaeth Derbyn y Prifysgolion a’r Colegau, sydd yn dangos cynnydd yn nifer y myfyrwyr. Nid yw ffïoedd dysgu wedi cael effaith amlwg ar y nifer sydd yn cofrestru. Dyna’r prawf allweddol. Yn gynyddol, mae ffïoedd dysgu’n cael eu gweld fel ffordd deg a chydradd o ledaenu’r cyfrifoldebau am gyllido addysg uwch.
The Cubie report is a serious piece of work. Its 52 recommendations deserve full consideration. Nobody wants tuition fees, but do you accept that those who call for their abolition need to specify how lost revenue will be replaced?
Mae adroddiad Cubie yn ddarn difrifol o waith. Mae’r 52 argymhelliad ynddo yn haeddu ystyriaeth lawn. Nid oes neb am weld ffïoedd dysgu, ond a ydych yn derbyn bod angen i’r rheini sydd yn galw am eu dileu nodi sut y byddid yn ailosod y refeniw a gollid?
The element of university and college funding that is supported by fee income is a crucial element in colleges’ and universities’ financial arrangements. A large amount of money is involved, which enables colleges to deliver on our agenda of widening access and increasing participation.
Mae’r elfen o gyllid prifysgolion a cholegau sydd yn cael ei chynnal gan incwm ffïoedd yn hanfodol bwysig yn nhrefniadau ariannol colegau a phrifysgolion. Yr ydym yn sôn am swm mawr o arian, sydd yn galluogi colegau i gyflawni ein hagenda o ddod ag addysg uwch o fewn cyrraedd mwy o bobl a chael mwy o bobl i gymryd rhan.
Perthnasedd Adroddiad Cubie i Gymru (Adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor)
Relevance of the Cubie Inquiry to Wales (Report to Committee)
Will Tom Middlehurst bring a report to the Committee on the relevance to Wales of the findings of the Cubie inquiry? (OAQ3057)
A wnaiff Tom Middlehurst ddod ag adroddiadau i’r Pwyllgor ynglŷn â pherthnasedd canfyddiadau ymchwiliad Cubie i Gymru? (OAQ3057)
I have no plans to do so. As I said in my answer to Mike German, the Cubie inquiry is a report for the Scottish Executive and policy on tuition fees is not a devolved matter. As I told Elin Jones, there is an opportunity for the Post-16 Education and Training Committee to consider any aspect of higher education in the review that it will conduct in late summer 2000.
Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau i wneud hynny. Fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Michael German, adroddiad i Weithrediaeth yr Alban yw ymchwiliad Cubie ac nid yw’r polisi ar ffïoedd dysgu wedi ei ddatganoli. Fel y dywedais wrth Elin Jones, bydd cyfle i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 ystyried unrhyw agwedd o addysg uwch yn yr arolwg sydd i’w gynnal tua diwedd haf 2000.
I urge you to change your mind on that because, despite the legal constraints under which we work, do you agree that the Cubie analysis of student financial difficulties would be relevant to every student throughout the UK, not least in Wales? There is a great deal of evidence in Wales that concerns about student debt discourage applications, particularly among mature students. Students in Cardiff are campaigning on this, and Lampeter—a university that has seen a big drop in admissions—is particularly concerned about it. We can put pressure on the central Government in Westminster and I urge you do so.
Fe’ch anogaf i newid eich meddwl ar hyn oherwydd, er gwaethaf y cyfyngiadau cyfreithiol y gweithiwn oddi tanynt, a ydych yn cytuno y byddai dadansoddiad Cubie o anawsterau ariannol myfyrwyr yn berthnasol i bob myfyriwr ledled y DU, nid leiaf yng Nghymru? Mae llawer o dystiolaeth yng Nghymru bod pryderon ynglŷn â dyledion myfyrwyr yn llestair rhag ymgeisio, yn enwedig ymysg myfyrwyr aeddfed. Mae myfyrwyr yng Nghaerdydd yn ymgyrchu ar hyn ac mae Llanbedr Pont Steffan—prifysgol sydd wedi gweld gostyngiad mawr yn ei niferoedd derbyn—yn poeni’n arbennig yn ei gylch. Gallwn roi pwysau ar y Llywodraeth ganolog yn San Steffan ac fe’ch anogaf i wneud hynny.
The evidence does not support that contribution. The Scottish Executive’s report relates to circumstances that prevail in Scotland. I would need to be convinced that the circumstances that brought about the Cubie report were relevant to England and Wales.
Nid yw’r dystiolaeth yn ategu’r cyfraniad yna. Mae adroddiad Gweithrediaeth yr Alban yn ymdrin â’r amgylchiadau sydd i’w gweld yn yr Alban. Byddai angen fy argyhoeddi bod yr amgylchiadau a arweiniodd at adroddiad Cubie yn berthnasol hefyd yng Nghymru a Lloegr.
A wnewch chi ystyried cynnal ymchwiliad yng Nghymru i effaith ffioedd dysgu gan fod y Gymuned Ewropeaidd wedi dweud bod polisi arfaethedig Senedd yr Alban yn anghyfreithlon?
Will you consider holding an inquiry in Wales into the effect of tuition fees given that the European Community has stated that the Scottish Parliament’s proposed policy is illegal?
First of all, I congratulate Nick on his Welsh. I feel somewhat ashamed and I regret that I am unable to respond in Welsh. At this stage of my personal development, I am not able to do so.
Yn gyntaf, carwn longyfarch Nick ar ei Gymraeg. Teimlaf dipyn o gywilydd ac mae’n ddrwg gennyf na allaf ymateb yn Gymraeg. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwn o’m datblygiad personol, ni allaf wneud hynny.
These are not devolved issues and they need to be considered by the Government in England. They are matters for the Department for Education and Employment to consider. It is right and proper to allow the Government in Westminster to develop that process.
Nid yw’r rhain yn faterion sydd wedi eu datganoli ac mae’n rhaid iddynt gael eu hystyried gan y Llywodraeth yn Lloegr. Mater ydynt i’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth eu hystyried. Iawn a phriodol yw caniatáu i’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan ddatblygu’r broses honno.
Theatr Iolo (Cynnig i Ddarparu Gwasanaethau)
Theatr Iolo (Bid to Provide Services)
Will Tom Middlehurst allow Members of the Assembly to view the bid by Theatr Iolo to provide theatre in education services in the Gwent area? (OAQ2991)
A wnaiff Tom Middlehurst ganiatáu i Aelodau’r Cynulliad weld cynnig Theatr Iolo i ddarparu gwasanaethau theatr mewn addysg yn ardal Gwent? (OAQ2991)
[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Why not in Welsh?’]
[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Pam nad yn Gymraeg?’]
I ask in English because I know Tom does not understand Welsh. [Laughter.]
Gofynnaf yn Saesneg oherwydd gwn nad yw Tom yn deall Cymraeg. [Chwerthin.]
I am surprised by this question. It is in no-one’s interest to provide information submitted under a bidding process that leads to the rewarding of contracts. I would have thought that you would understand that, David, given your background. There are commercial considerations that require confidentiality, as you are aware. Given the current set of circumstances, it is important that that type of information is not made publicly available.
Mae’r cwestiwn hwn yn fy synnu. Nid yw er budd i neb i roi gwybodaeth a gyflwynwyd o dan broses fidio sydd yn arwain at ddyfarnu contractau. Byddwn wedi disgwyl i chi ddeall hynny, David, gyda’ch cefndir chi. Mae yna ystyriaethau masnachol lle mae’n rhaid parchu cyfrinachedd, fel y gwyddoch. O gofio’r amgylchiadau dan sylw, mae’n bwysig nad yw’r math hwnnw o wybodaeth ar gael yn gyhoeddus.
Does Tom Middlehurst agree that the failure to allow democratically elected Assembly Members to view that bid undermines the principle that we are in place to ensure that quangos like the Arts Council of Wales are accountable to the people of Wales? Does he further agree that, following the welcome decision to suspend the closure of Gwent Theatre, the very least we can do now is to offer them the same three-year contract that was originally offered in a secretive and high-handed fashion to Theatr Iolo? Finally, if he has lingering doubts as to the high quality of Gwent Theatre performances, perhaps he would like to join me at Chapter Arts Centre on 4 February to see how good Gwent Theatre is.
A yw Tom Middlehurst yn cytuno bod y methiant i ganiatáu i Aelodau’r Cynulliad, sydd wedi eu hethol yn ddemocrataidd, weld y cais yn tanseilio’r egwyddor ein bod yma i sicrhau bod cwangos fel Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn atebol i bobl Cymru? A yw’n cytuno ymhellach, yn dilyn y penderfyniad, sydd i’w groesawu, i ohirio cau Theatr Gwent, mai’r lleiaf posibl y gallwn ni ei wneud yn awr yw cynnig iddynt yr un contract tair blynedd ag a gynigiwyd yn wreiddiol mewn modd dirgelaidd a thrahaus i Theatr Iolo? Yn olaf, os oes unrhyw amheuon yn dal i lechu yn ei feddwl ynglŷn â safon uchel perfformiadau Theatr Gwent, efallai yr hoffai ymuno â mi yng Nghanolfan Gelfyddydau Chapter ar 4 Chwefror i weld mor dda yw Theatr Gwent.
The Arts Council of Wales is responsible for artistic and funding decisions. We are not equipped to make judgments and evaluations on artistic merit. I am not equipped to do so and I am sure that that is true of others in this Chamber. We charge the Arts Council of Wales with a responsibility and we engage several people, who serve the Arts Council of Wales because of their expertise and experience, to deliver an artistic policy on behalf of the Assembly. It would be inappropriate for us to intervene in that process.
Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru sydd yn gyfrifol am benderfyniadau artistig a chyllido. Nid ydym mewn sefyllfa i lunio barn a chloriannu haeddiant artistig. Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i wneud hynny ac yr wyf yn siŵr bod hynny’n wir am eraill yn y Siambr hon. Yr ydym yn rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb i Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru ac yr ydym yn penodi sawl person, sydd yn gwasanaethu Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru oherwydd eu harbenigedd a’u profiad, i gyflwyno polisi artistig ar ran y Cynulliad. Byddai’n amhriodol inni ymyrryd yn y broses honno.
The decision to suspend the theatre for young people strategy was a consequence of strong representations from the Welsh Local Government Association. We must acknowledge that the decision was taken because the WLGA is a key partner in the delivery of theatre for young people. Without its financial support, theatre for young people would not be sustainable. Therefore, the Arts Council of Wales acted correctly in those circumstances. It has given itself one-year’s breathing space to try to get this right. It must get it right this time and I will insist that it does.
Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad i atal y strategaeth ar theatr i bobl ifanc yn sgîl cynrychioliaethau cryf o du Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod y penderfyniad wedi ei wneud oherwydd bod CLlLC yn bartner allweddol yn y gwaith o gyflenwi theatr i bobl ifanc. Heb ei chefnogaeth ariannol, ni fyddai theatr i bobl ifanc yn gynaliadwy. Felly, gweithredodd Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn briodol dan yr amgylchiadau. Mae wedi rhoi blwyddyn o saib iddo’i hun i geisio cael hyn yn iawn. Rhaid iddo ei gael yn iawn y tro hwn a byddaf yn mynnu bod hynny’n digwydd.
Given that the Arts Council of Wales has subsequently notified all eight theatre in education companies that their funding for 2000-01 will be based on the 1999-2000 levels and existing patterns of provision, what representations has Tom Middlehurst made to ensure that all costs associated with the agreements and contracts entered into in good faith by Spectacle Theatre, Llwynypia, and other theatre companies, following the franchise awards in October 1999, are underwritten by the Arts Council of Wales?
O gofio bod Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru wedi hysbysu’r wyth cwmni theatr mewn addysg ers hynny y bydd eu nawdd ar gyfer 2000-01 wedi ei seilio ar lefelau 1999-2000 a’r patrymau darparu presennol, pa sylwadau y mae Tom Middlehurst wedi eu cyflwyno i sicrhau y bydd yr holl gostau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r cytundebau a’r contractau yr ymunodd Spectacle Theatre, Llwynypia, a chwmnïau theatr eraill ynddynt gyda phob ewyllys da yn sgîl dyfarnu trwyddedau ym mis Hydref 1999, yn cael eu tanysgrifennu gan Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru?
I share your concerns. The Arts Council of Wales has made a particular decision and it has a responsibility to manage that process. It must respond positively. I am aware that it is proactive inviting organisations to meet with it, for example, the Welsh Local Government Association. We must find a way forward that is acceptable to the current franchisees, both successful and unsuccessful.
Yr wyf yn rhannu eich pryderon. Mae Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru wedi gwneud penderfyniad penodol ac mae’n gyfrifol am reoli’r broses honno. Rhaid iddo ymateb mewn modd cadarnhaol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol ei fod wrthi’n ddiwyd yn gwahodd mudiadau i gwrdd ag ef, er enghraifft Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Rhaid inni ganfod ffordd ymlaen sydd yn dderbyniol i’r rhai sydd â thrwyddedau ar hyn o bryd, boed hwy’n llwyddiannus neu’n aflwyddiannus.
I am not sure that that will give any comfort to Spectacle Theatre and others like it in Wales, who, as Pauline Jarman said, bid, and was successful in its bid because of the quality of its theatre. Do you share my concern that there are no winners in the current situation? The companies that had successful franchises were informed in public, when the Arts Council of Wales came to the Assembly last week, and announced that it had suspended the drama strategy. The companies themselves, like Spectacle Theatre, were not informed until that had happened. Surely, as an Assembly, we have a right to expect that organisations that are accountable to us, use best practice in ensuring that any companies whose future is threatened by a decision of that quango should be the first to know?
Nid wyf yn siŵr a wnaiff hynny roi unrhyw gysur i Spectacle Theatre ac eraill tebyg iddi yng Nghymru a oedd, fel y dywedodd Pauline Jarman, wedi cyflwyno cais a’r cais hwnnw wedi llwyddo oherwydd ansawdd ei theatr. A ydych yn rhannu fy mhryderon i nad oes unrhyw enillwyr yn y sefyllfa fel y mae? Cafodd y cwmnïau oedd â thrwyddedau llwyddiannus wybod yn gyhoeddus, pan ddaeth Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru i’r Cynulliad yr wythnos diwethaf, a chyhoeddi ei fod wedi atal y strategaeth ddrama. Ni roddwyd gwybod i’r cwmnïau eu hunain, fel Spectacle Theatre, tan i hynny ddigwydd. Onid oes gennym, fel Cynulliad, hawl i ddisgwyl bod cyrff sydd yn atebol inni yn defnyddio’r arferion gorau ac yn sicrhau bod unrhyw gwmnïau y tanseilir eu dyfodol gan benderfyniad o eiddo’r cwango hwn yn cael gwybod am y penderfyniad hwnnw cyn neb arall?
I am aware that the Arts Council contacted the five successful bidders of its decision on the day that it made the announcement. I do not know whether that preceded the announcement or came after it. However, I share your concern. It is crucial that we have quality theatre in education. That is essential and it is an issue that we must address.
Yr wyf yn gwybod i Gyngor y Celfyddydau gysylltu â’r pum bidiwr llwyddiannus gyda’i benderfyniad ar y diwrnod y gwnaeth y cyhoeddiad. Ni wn a wnaethpwyd hynny cyn y cyhoeddiad neu ar ei ôl. Fodd bynnag, rhannaf eich pryder. Mae’n holl bwysig bod gennym theatr mewn addysg o safon. Mae hynny’n hanfodol ac mae’n fater y mae’n rhaid inni roi sylw iddo.
In further response to David Davies and other Members here, I have no reason to criticise the standards of service being provided by the existing companies in Wales. I am sure that they do their best with the resources available to them. The principal purpose of the drama strategy review was to put more resources into front line services. That remains an honourable commitment and one that we should share. However, in doing so, we must ensure that organisations that are affected by this decision are given proper regard for the work they have done and the opportunity to continue to contribute to theatre for young people.
Mewn ymateb pellach i David Davies ac Aelodau eraill yma, nid oes gennyf unrhyw reswm i feirniadu’r safonau gwasanaeth a gyflenwir gan y cwmnïau yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn siŵr eu bod yn gwneud eu gorau gyda’r adnoddau sydd ar gael iddynt. Diben pennaf yr arolwg ar y strategaeth ddrama oedd rhoi mwy o adnoddau i mewn i wasanaethau’r rheng flaen. Mae hwnnw yn dal yn ymrwymiad anrhydeddus ac yn un y dylem ei rannu. Fodd bynnag, wrth wneud hynny, rhaid inni sicrhau bod cyrff yr effeithir arnynt gan y penderfyniad hwn yn cael priod gydnabyddiaeth am y gwaith y maent wedi ei wneud a’r cyfle i barhau i gyfrannu at theatr i bobl ifanc.
I understand that the WLGA took a positive view of this position that has resulted from the decision to suspend. It believes it can offer a positive agenda to the Arts Council, which, I hope, will resolve the immediate problems in the short term and deal with the longer term problems concerning the delivery of quality theatre for young people.
Deallaf fod CLlLC wedi edrych mewn modd cadarnhaol ar y sefyllfa sydd wedi deillio o’r penderfyniad i ohirio. Cred y gall gynnig agenda gadarnhaol i Gyngor y Celfyddydau a fydd, gobeithio, yn datrys problemau’r funud yn y tymor byr ac yn delio â’r problemau tymor hwy ynghylch darparu theatr o safon i bobl ifanc.
Poblogaeth Myfyrwyr (Cefnogi a Darparu Newid)
Student Population (Supporting and Accommodating Change)
What is being done to support and accommodate the changing nature of the student population in Wales? (OAQ3018)
Beth a wneir i gefnogi a darparu ar gyfer natur gyfnewidiol poblogaeth myfyrwyr Cymru? (OAQ3018)
We are fully committed to widening access to further and higher education to all those who could benefit from it. This was clearly underlined in the Green Paper for Wales ‘Learning is for Everyone’, and more recently in the Education and Training Action Group’s action plan for Wales. We are committed to removing barriers to post-16 education and training wherever possible.
Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i ehangu mynediad i addysg bellach ac uwch i bawb a allai elwa ohoni. Tanlinellwyd hyn yn glir yn y Papur Gwyrdd i Gymru ‘Rhywbeth i Bawb yw Dysgu’, ac yn fwy diweddar yng nghynllun gweithredu’r Grŵp Gweithredu Addysg a Hyfforddiant i Gymru. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i ddymchwel y rhwystrau rhag gallu manteisio ar addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 pa le bynnag y mae hynny’n bosibl.
Given your answer to my question and the previous question, I am sure that you agree that we should aim to ensure the widest possible participation in higher education by people of all ages and social backgrounds, particularly given the long-term economic advantages of broadening access. What plans do you have to reverse the fall in applications by mature students to higher education institutions and universities?
Yn wyneb eich ateb i’m cwestiwn i a’r cwestiwn blaenorol, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddech yn cytuno y dylem geisio sicrhau bod cynifer â phosibl o bobl o bob oedran a chefndir cymdeithasol yn cymryd rhan mewn addysg uwch, yn enwedig o gofio’r manteision economaidd yn y tymor hir o ehangu mynediad. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i wyrdroi’r gostyngiad yn nifer y ceisiadau gan fyfyrwyr aeddfed i sefydliadau addysg uwch a phrifysgolion a’u denu’n ôl?
I am sure that you welcome the actions taken yesterday by David Blunkett to assist those people. I have a long list of measures here, which I can make available to Members in the Library. The press release yesterday details some of those measures such as additional funding, non-repayable bursaries of £1,000 and support for childcare. Those are important in enabling lone parents in particular to access higher education. I commend David Blunkett’s announcement to you and perhaps that will in some way address your concerns.
Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn croesawu’r camau a gymerwyd gan David Blunkett ddoe i gynorthwyo’r bobl hynny. Mae gennyf restr hir o fesurau yma, a gallaf drefnu ei bod ar gael i’r Aelodau yn y Llyfrgell. Mae’r datganiad i’r wasg ddoe yn manylu ar rai o’r mesurau hynny megis cyllid ychwanegol, bwrsariaethau o hyd at £1,000 na fydd yn rhaid eu had-dalu a chefnogaeth at ofal plant. Mae’r rhain yn bwysig er galluogi rhieni unigol yn enwedig i fanteisio ar addysg uwch. Tynnaf eich sylw at gyhoeddiad David Blunkett ac efallai y bydd yn tawelu eich pryderon mewn rhyw ffordd.
Theatr Powys (Diddymu Cyllid)
Theatr Powys (Withdrawal of Funding)
What discussions has Tom Middlehurst had regarding the withdrawal of theatre in education funding from Theatr Powys? (OAQ3128)
Pa drafodaethau y mae Tom Middlehurst wedi eu cael ynghylch diddymu’r cyllid theatr mewn addysg a roddir i Theatr Powys? (OAQ3128)
If you mean discussions with Theatr Powys, none. It was not appropriate for me to engage in discussion with individual companies in regard to the theatre for young people strategy. That responsibility lies with the Arts Council of Wales. I have not spoken with any company in regard to this matter.
Os ydych yn golygu trafodaethau gyda Theatr Powys, dim. Nid oedd yn briodol imi gynnal trafodaethau gyda chwmnïau unigol ynghylch y strategaeth theatr i bobl ifanc. Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru sydd â’r cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. Nid wyf wedi siarad ag unrhyw gwmni ynglŷn â’r mater hwn.
The Arts Council of Wales handled the episode, which has caused, and continues to cause, much stress and uncertainty for all the theatre companies involved, in a disastrous way. Do you not regret that you, as the Secretary with responsibility for the arts in Wales, did not take action sooner and that it was left to the Welsh Local Government Association’s threatened withdrawal of funding and the continued lobbying of the theatre companies by Assembly Members to make the Arts Council of Wales finally see sense? What guarantees can you give that in the intervening year, when the policy will be reconsidered, that the Arts Council of Wales will truly consult with all those involved? That obviously did not happen in the initial drawing up of the strategy.
Mae Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru wedi ymdrin â’r mater hwn, sydd wedi achosi, ac sydd yn parhau i achosi, llawer o straen ac ansicrwydd i’r holl gwmnïau theatr dan sylw, mewn modd trychinebus. Onid yw’n edifar gennych, fel yr Ysgrifennydd sydd yn gyfrifol am y celfyddydau yng Nghymru, na wnaethoch chi weithredu ynghynt ac na wnaeth Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru weld synnwyr hyd nes i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fygwth tynnu ei chyllid yn ôl ac i Aelodau’r Cynulliad lobïo’n barhaus ar ran y cwmnïau theatr? Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi y bydd Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn ymgynghori o ddifrif â phawb sydd â diddordeb yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf, tra bydd y polisi yn cael ei ail-ystyried o’r newydd? Mae’n amlwg na ddigwyddodd hynny wrth lunio’r strategaeth yn y lle cyntaf.
I do not regret the actions I took. I acknowledged that the Arts Council of Wales should manage its responsibility to deliver arts strategies in Wales. It is delegated with that responsibility under its Royal Charter and its management statement. It is only appropriate for us to intervene on matters of propriety. Artistic judgement must rest with the Arts Council of Wales. That is its key responsibility. However, I welcome its decision not least because of the concerns of its principal partner; the WLGA is a key partner in the delivery of theatre for young people. I have also taken action to review the management structures and processes of the Arts Council of Wales. I am concerned that the management structures of the Arts Council of Wales should be robust enough to deal with the issues that arise. I await that report with considerable interest. I make no comment as regards to the likely outcome of that investigation.
Nid yw’n edifar gennyf am y modd y bu imi weithredu. Cydnabûm y dylai Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru reoli ei gyfrifoldeb i gyflenwi strategaethau celfyddydol yng Nghymru. Mae’r cyfrifoldeb hwnnw wedi ei ddirprwyo iddo dan ei Siarter Frenhinol a’i ddatganiad rheoli. Dim ond ar faterion o briodoldeb y mae’n briodol i ni ymyrryd. Rhaid i’r farn artistig orffwys gyda Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Dyna ei gyfrifoldeb allweddol. Fodd bynnag, croesawaf ei benderfyniad nid leiaf oherwydd pryderon ei brif bartner; mae CLlLC yn bartner allweddol o ran cyflenwi theatr i bobl ifanc. Yr wyf hefyd wedi cymryd camau i adolygu strwythurau a phrosesau rheoli Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Yr wyf am i strwythurau rheoli Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru fod yn ddigon cadarn i ddelio â’r materion sydd yn codi. Yr wyf yn disgwyl am yr adroddiad gyda chryn ddiddordeb. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw sylwadau ynglŷn â chanlyniad tebygol yr ymchwiliad.
Hyrwyddo Defnydd o’r Gymraeg
Promoting Use of the Welsh Language
A wnaiff Tom Middlehurst ystyried neilltuo cyllid arbennig i hyrwyddo defnydd o’r Gymraeg yng ngweinyddiaeth addysg? (OAQ3007)
Will Tom Middlehurst consider allocating special funds to promote the use of the Welsh language in educational administration? (OAQ3007)
No. Parliament enacted the Welsh Language Act 1993 on the understanding that, where public bodies incurred additional costs as a result of implementing their Welsh language schemes, that would be accommodated within mainstream budgets.
Na wnaf. Rhoddodd y Senedd Ddeddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 ar waith ar y ddealltwriaeth y byddai cyrff cyhoeddus, lle maent yn wynebu costau ychwanegol yn sgîl rhoi eu cynlluniau iaith ar waith, yn darparu ar gyfer hynny oddi mewn i’w prif gyllidebau.
Yr wyf yn siomedig â’r ateb. Os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch creu cymdeithas ddwyieithog, mae’n rhaid newid gweinyddiaeth ysgolion a cholegau dwyieithog. Fel rhiant a chyn lywodraethwr, yr wyf wedi mynychu nifer o gyfarfodydd mewn ysgolion dwyieithog. Cynhelir bron pob cyfarfod yn uniaith Saesneg gan fod yn rhaid i’r gost o gyfieithu ar y pryd ddod o gyllid yr ysgolion. I dalu am y cyfieithu, rhaid i’r ysgol gwtogi ar adnoddau eraill. Felly, a fyddai’r Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 yn ystyried darparu grantiau i ysgolion sydd yn awyddus i gynnal eu cyfarfodydd yn ddwyieithog? Byddai hynny yn sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn lledaenu yn ein cymunedau.
I am disappointed with the answer. If we are serious about creating a bilingual society, we must change the administration of bilingual schools and colleges. As a parent and former governor, I have attended a number of meetings in bilingual schools. Almost every meeting is held in English only because the cost of simultaneous translation has to be met from schools’ budgets. To pay for the translation, the school has to cut other resources. Therefore, would the Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training consider providing grants to schools who wish to hold their meetings bilingually? That would ensure that the use of the Welsh language is extended in our communities.
Costs associated with the Welsh language schemes should be met from mainstream budgets. To take a contrary view would suggest that the funding of public services in Wales is intended only to secure the provision of services through the medium of English. That must not be the case. I do not want to send that message. Already 127 public bodies have submitted schemes which have been approved by the Welsh Language Board. The schemes have been prepared and implemented against a background of assurances given to Parliament. It is worth noting that the funding methods of the Further Education Funding Council for Wales include a financial incentive for institutions that provide teaching materials and formal assessments through the medium of Welsh.
Dylid talu’r costau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r cynlluniau o’r prif gyllidebau. Byddai safiad i’r gwrthwyneb yn awgrymu nad yw cyllid at wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ond wedi ei fwriadu i sicrhau y darperir gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Ni allwn ganiatáu hynny. Nid wyf am roi’r neges honno. Eisoes mae 127 o gyrff cyhoeddus wedi cyflwyno cynlluniau a gymeradwywyd gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Paratowyd y cynlluniau a’u rhoi ar waith gyda’r addewidion a roddwyd gan y Senedd yn gefnlen iddynt. Mae’n werth nodi bod dulliau cyllido Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Bellach Cymru yn cynnwys cymhelldal i sefydliadau sydd yn darparu deunyddiau dysgu ac asesiadau ffurfiol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Nid yw’r datblygiadau rheolaethol a’r penodiadau diweddar i swyddi allweddol yn Estyn yn rhoi ystyriaeth deilwng i wybodaeth o’r iaith Gymraeg na’r dimensiwn Cymreig. A ydych yn cytuno bod hyn yn tanseilio defnydd o’r Gymraeg yn y gwasanaeth addysg, yn creu diffyg hyder yn yr arolygaeth ac yn gyrru negeseuon anghywir i’n sefydliadau addysgol yng Nghymru?
The recent regulatory developments and appointments to key posts in Estyn have not given appropriate consideration to knowledge of the Welsh language or the Welsh dimension. Do you agree that this undermines the use of the Welsh language in the education service, creates a lack of confidence in the inspectorate and sends the wrong messages to our educational establishments in Wales?
I do not. People’s calibre and their ability to do a job effectively on behalf of the people of Wales is more important. It is important that the language is developed and that inspections can be conducted through the medium of Welsh, but not to the exclusion of other considerations. We should not place unnecessary constraints on people’s ability to do the job.
Nac ydwyf. Mae ansawdd pobl a’u gallu i fod yn effeithiol mewn swydd ar ran pobl Cymru yn bwysicach. Mae’n bwysig fod yr iaith yn cael ei datblygu ac y gellir cynnal arolygiadau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond ni ddylid ystyried hynny ar draul ystyriaethau eraill yn llwyr. Ni ddylem osod cyfyngiadau dianghenraid ar allu pobl i wneud y gwaith.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. This relates to the Economic Development Committee meeting this morning. During the coffee break a document appeared that contained an announcement on the monitoring committee, on which three of the four political parties in the Assembly are represented, namely the Labour Party, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. The Conservatives are not represented. There is a provision for an alternate for Rhodri Morgan, cited as Christine Gwyther, and a provision for an alternate for Phil Williams, cited as Michael German. The appointments committee was Ann Jones and Michael German.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd y bore yma. Yn ystod yr egwyl goffi, ymddangosodd dogfen a oedd yn cynnwys datganiad am y pwyllgor monitro, y mae tair o’r pedair plaid wleidyddol yn y Cynulliad wedi eu cynrychioli arno, sef y Blaid Lafur, Plaid Cymru a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr wedi eu cynrychioli. Gwnaethpwyd darpariaeth ar gyfer dirprwy i Rhodri Morgan, a enwyd fel Christine Gwyther, a darpariaeth ar gyfer dirprwy i Phil Williams, a enwyd fel Michael German. Y pwyllgor penodi oedd Ann Jones a Michael German.
I am extremely annoyed on behalf of the Welsh Conservative Party that we have been excluded. This is not the sort of inclusive politics that we were promised by the administration. I urge Rhodri Morgan and others who, although not directly responsible for this appointment have power they can bring to bear, to use every means possible to ensure that all political parties are properly represented on this monitoring committee. Otherwise, a message will be sent that we have been excluded, whether intentionally or negligently. I leave it to others to decide.
Yr wyf wedi fy nghythruddo’n fawr ar ran y Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig ein bod ni wedi ein cau allan. Nid dyma’r math o wleidyddiaeth gynhwysol a addawyd inni gan y weinyddiaeth. Anogaf Rhodri Morgan ac eraill sydd, er nad ydynt yn uniongyrchol gyfrifol am y penodiad hwn, â grym y gallant ei arddel, i ddefnyddio pob dull posibl i sicrhau bod pob plaid wleidyddol yn cael ei chynrychioli’n briodol ar y pwyllgor monitro hwn. Fel arall, anfonir neges ein bod ni wedi cael ein cau allan, boed hynny’n fwriadol neu drwy esgeulustra. Gadawaf i eraill benderfynu ar hynny.
Rhodri Morgan The Secretary for Economic Development spoken in English p. 25
Rhodri Morgan Yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25
It is not a matter of having political parties represented on the committee. It was agreed in the Economic Development Committee that there were places for two politicians on the monitoring committee. There are two alternates in case of absence. I will chair the committee and, in my absence, Christine will chair it as the next most relevant member of the Cabinet. To ensure representation from the other political parties would mean including one other representative from the other parties, with an alternate for that person as well. I made the appointments, with advice from the two members of the Economic Development Committee who have the role of deciding or advising on public appointments; not only these ones, but appointments to quangos and so forth. If the implication is that Mike German promoted himself for this position, that is untrue. He did not take part in the decision. Given the obvious conflict of interest, which Nick has spotted, I alone made the decision. There are only two places for politicians, not four. There are two members plus two alternates. If you decide to appoint two members of the Cabinet and two others, all three Opposition parties can not be represented either on the committee or as alternates. It is ridiculous to try to suggest that every political party should be represented, and that the appointments are a terrible insult to the political party that has been omitted. To represent all parties, there would have to be five positions for politicians but there are only two, plus two alternates. You can not divide five into two.
Nid mater o gael pleidiau gwleidyddol wedi eu cynrychioli ar y pwyllgor mohono. Cytunwyd yn y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd fod lle i ddau wleidydd ar y pwyllgor monitro. Mae yna ddau ddirprwy rhag ofn y ceir absenoldebau. Byddaf fi’n cadeirio’r pwyllgor ac, yn fy absenoldeb, bydd Christine yn ei gadeirio fel yr aelod nesaf mwyaf perthnasol o’r Cabinet. Er mwyn sicrhau cynrychiolaeth o’r pleidiau gwleidyddol eraill byddai’n rhaid cynnwys un cynrychiolydd arall o’r pleidiau eraill, gyda dirprwy ar gyfer y person hwnnw hefyd. Myfi a wnaeth y penodiadau, gyda chyngor gan y ddau aelod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd sydd â’r rôl o benderfynu neu gynghori ynghylch penodiadau cyhoeddus; nid yn unig y rhain, ond penodiadau i gwangos ac ati. Os mai’r awgrym yw bod Mike German wedi dyrchafu ei hun i’r swydd hon, nid yw hynny’n wir. Ni fu iddo ran yn y penderfyniad. O ystyried y gwrthdaro amlwg rhwng buddiannau, y mae Nick wedi sylwi arno, myfi yn unig a wnaeth y penderfyniad. Dim ond dau le sydd yna i wleidyddion, nid pedwar. Mae yna ddau aelod ynghyd â dau ddirprwy. Os ydych yn penderfynu penodi dau aelod o’r Cabinet a dau arall, nid yw’n bosibl i’r tair gwrthblaid gael eu cynrychioli naill ai ar y pwyllgor neu fel dirprwyon. Gwiriondeb yw ceisio awgrymu y dylai pob plaid wleidyddol gael ei chynrychioli, a bod y penodiadau yn sen fawr ar y blaid wleidyddol sydd wedi ei gadael allan. Er mwyn cynrychioli pob plaid, byddai’n rhaid cael pum lle i wleidyddion ond nid oes ond dau, ynghyd â dau ddirprwy. Ni ellwch rannu pump i mewn i ddau.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 26
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
Order. I have allowed you to make your point. If there are no further comments, I will make the observation that when Assembly Members represent the Assembly on outside bodies, they represent the Assembly, not political parties. However, we should always maintain political balance, where that is appropriate, on these Committees. I am grateful for the way in which that point was raised.
Trefn. Yr wyf wedi caniatáu ichi wneud eich pwynt. Os nad oes unrhyw sylwadau pellach, hoffwn ddweud bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad, pan fyddont yn cynrychioli’r Cynulliad ar gyrff allanol, yn cynrychioli’r Cynulliad, nid pleidiau gwleidyddol. Fodd bynnag, dylem bob amser gynnal cydbwysedd gwleidyddol, lle bo hynny’n briodol, ar y Pwyllgorau hyn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y ffordd y codwyd y pwynt.
Datganiad ar Raglen Frechu Llid yr Ymennydd C
Statement on the Meningitis C Vaccination Programme
Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 26
Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
I welcome this opportunity to make a statement about the meningitis C vaccination programme. Following the tragic death of a 14-year-old pupil of Cwmcarn High School from meningococcal infection, there has been media interest. Ashley Burnett’s funeral is today and I am sure you will all join me in extending our sympathy to Ashley’s family and all the relatives in this and other cases where this disease has brought tragedy to families in Wales.
Croesawaf y cyfle hwn i wneud datganiad am y rhaglen i frechu rhag llid yr ymennydd C. Yn dilyn marwolaeth drasig disgybl 14 mlwydd oed yn ysgol uwchradd Cwmcarn o haint meningococaidd, bu diddordeb o du’r cyfryngau. Cynhelir angladd Ashley Burnett heddiw ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch oll yn ymuno â mi i ymestyn ein cydymdeimlad â theulu Ashley a’r perthnasau i gyd yn yr achos hwn a phob achos arall lle mae’r clefyd hwn wedi dod ag ing i deuluoedd yng Nghymru.
Last summer, I announced that, earlier than expected, a new vaccine to protect against meningitis C would be available allowing us to launch a new immunisation programme immediately. The programme involves a major exercise by health authorities to immunise different age groups prioritised in line with expert advice.
Yr haf diwethaf, cyhoeddais y byddai brechiad newydd i amddiffyn yn erbyn llid yr ymennydd C ar gael yn gynt na’r disgwyl, gan ganiatáu inni lansio rhaglen imiwneiddio newydd ar unwaith. Mae’r rhaglen yn golygu ymarferiad sylweddol gan yr awdurdodau iechyd i frechu gwahanol grwpiau oedran a flaenoriaethir yn unol â chyngor arbenigol.
Before the new higher education year, students were given protection. Fifteen to 17-year-olds were targeted before Christmas and they were the first to receive the new vaccine. Initial indications are that this part of the campaign is going well and that the uptake rate is 80 to 90 per cent. Health authorities are now in the phase of the campaign that will provide protection to all children under the age of two. Two to 14-year-olds should be immunised before the end of the summer term this year. This rolling out of protection makes the best use of supplies of vaccine as soon as manufacturers make it available. There is no stockpile of the vaccine on which to draw upon to speed up the programme. The vaccine is new and was only licensed to be used last October. Over three years, we estimate that the programme is likely to cost about £16 million.
Cyn y flwyddyn addysg uwch newydd, cafodd myfyrwyr eu brechu. Targedwyd y rhai rhwng 15 ac 17 mlwydd oed cyn y Nadolig a hwy oedd y rhai cyntaf i gael y brechiad newydd. Dengys yr arwyddion cynnar fod y rhan hon o’r ymgyrch yn mynd yn dda a bod y gyfradd fanteisio yn 80 i 90 y cant. Erbyn hyn mae’r awdurdodau iechyd ar y cam o’r ymgyrch a fydd yn rhoi amddiffyniad i bob plentyn dan ddwy oed. Dylai plant dwy i 14 mlwydd oed gael eu brechu cyn diwedd tymor yr haf eleni. Drwy frechu fesul cam fel hyn yr ydym yn gwneud y defnydd gorau o’r cyflenwadau o’r brechiad cyn gynted ag y daw i law oddi wrth y gwneuthurwyr. Nid oes stôr o’r brechiad wrth gefn y gallwn droi ato i gyflymu’r rhaglen. Mae’r brechiad yn newydd a dim ond fis Hydref diwethaf y trwyddedwyd ef i gael ei ddefnyddio. Dros dair blynedd, amcangyfrifwn fod y rhaglen yn debygol o gostio tua £16 miliwn.
The independent expert body that guides us—the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation—advises that while the programme is rolling out, outbreaks should be dealt with in accordance with the established guidelines. These are guidelines that we discussed last summer when Professor Ian Cameron’s report was presented to the Assembly. Under these guidelines, a single case is not regarded as warranting wholesale immunisation, for example, of a school population. When more than a single case occurs, the previously available vaccine is recommended. This provides short-term protection but there would need to be a six-month gap between that immunisation and the subsequent use of the new vaccine. It was against this background that the health authority in Gwent considered how best to deal with the situation that it was facing at Cwmcarn High school where 164 15 to 17-year-olds had received immunisation. This had to be the authority’s decision given that the diversion of vaccine would, potentially, impact on its roll-out programme. Following a meeting with parents on Monday, Gwent Health Authority announced it had decided to use the new vaccine to immunise 510 pupils at Cwmcarn High school who were scheduled for immunisation under the roll-out programme by the end of the summer term. I hope that this action will have allayed parents’ fears.
Dywed y corff arbenigol annibynnol sydd yn ein harwain—y Cyd-Bwyllgor ar Frechu ac Imiwneiddio—wrthym y dylid delio ag achosion o’r haint tra bo’r rhaglen frechu yn mynd rhagddi fesul cam yn unol â’r canllawiau penodedig. Canllawiau yw’r rhain a drafodasom yr haf diwethaf pan gyflwynwyd adroddiad yr Athro Ian Cameron i’r Cynulliad. O dan y canllawiau hyn, nid ystyrir bod un achos yn cyfiawnhau brechu ar raddfa eang, er enghraifft, brechu poblogaeth ysgol. Pan geir mwy nag un achos, argymhellir y brechiad oedd ar gael cynt. Mae hwn yn rhoi amddiffyniad tymor byr ond byddai’n rhaid cael bwlch o chwe mis rhwng y brechiad hwnnw a defnyddio’r brechiad newydd yn ddiweddarach. Yn erbyn y cefndir hwn yr ystyriodd yr awdurdod iechyd yng Ngwent y ffordd orau o ddelio â’r sefyllfa yr oedd yn ei hwynebu yn Ysgol Uwchradd Cwmcarn lle’r oedd 164 o ddisgyblion 15 i 17 mlwydd oed wedi cael eu brechu. Yr oedd yn rhaid i’r awdurdod benderfynu fel hyn o gofio y byddai arallgyfeirio’r brechiad, o bosibl, yn effeithio ar ei raglen frechu fesul-cam. Yn dilyn cyfarfod gyda rhieni ddydd Llun, cyhoeddodd Awdurdod Iechyd Gwent ei fod wedi penderfynu defnyddio’r brechiad newydd i frechu 150 o ddisgyblion yn Ysgol Uwchradd Cwmcarn a oedd wedi eu rhaglennu i gael eu brechu dan y rhaglen frechu fesul-cam erbyn diwedd tymor yr haf. Gobeithiaf y bydd y cam hwn wedi lleddfu ofnau’r rhieni.
Before next winter, all young people will have been offered the new vaccine. We cannot provide it to all young people simultaneously because we must wait for the vaccine to be manufactured. The special circumstances at Cwmcarn led the health authority to review its roll-out programme. That approach at present has the effect of protecting one group rather than another. We are doing all that we can to secure the vaccine as it becomes available and every effort is being made to ensure that the roll-out programme set out by the committee that I mentioned earlier, is complied with fully. Where meningococcal infection points to the need for urgent immunisation, the health authority concerned must consider whether immunisation is best done through its roll-out programme or through the use of the vaccine that was previously available. I hope that Members will accept that, with the finite amount of vaccine that is being produced, pushing the claims of one group will serve only to demote the claims of another group—one which independent advice identifies as being at greater risk. The provision of this new vaccine against meningitis C is a great step forward. It is a positive development. It came before we were expecting it last year and we welcomed it in the Assembly. It is an initiative of which the Assembly can be proud.
Cyn y gaeaf nesaf, bydd pob person ifanc wedi cael cynnig y brechiad newydd. Ni allwn ei gynnig i’r bobl ifanc i gyd ar yr un pryd am fod yn rhaid inni ddisgwyl i’r brechiad gael ei gynhyrchu. Mae’r amgylchiadau arbennig yng Nghwmcarn wedi peri i’r awdurdod iechyd adolygu ei raglen frechu fesul-cam. Effaith gweithredu felly ar hyn o bryd yw amddiffyn un grŵp yn hytrach na grŵp arall. Yr ydym yn gwneud popeth a fedrwn i gael y brechiad cyn gynted ag y mae ar gael a gwneir pob ymdrech i sicrhau cydymffurfiaeth lawn â’r rhaglen frechu fesul-cam a osodwyd gan y pwyllgor y soniais amdano’n gynharach. Lle bo haint meningococaidd yn awgrymu bod angen brechu ar frys, rhaid i’r awdurdod iechyd dan sylw ystyried ai drwy ei raglen fesul-cam yw’r ffordd orau o frechu ynteu drwy ddefnyddio’r brechiad a oedd ar gael cynt. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau yn derbyn, o gofio mai dim ond hyn a hyn o’r brechiad a gynhyrchir, nad yw gwthio galwadau un grŵp ond yn darostwng galwadau grŵp arall—un sydd, yn ôl cyngor annibynnol, yn wynebu mwy o risg. Mae darparu’r brechiad newydd hwn yn erbyn llid yr ymennydd C yn gam mawr ymlaen. Mae’n ddatblygiad cadarnhaol. Daeth yn gynt na’r disgwyl y llynedd ac yr ydym yn ei groesawu yn y Cynulliad. Mae’n gynllun y gall y Cynulliad fod yn falch ohono.
I welcome that announcement and join with you in expressing condolences to everybody in Cwmcarn High School. From the coalface, as it were, I can say that meningitis C appears to be changing. It is becoming more difficult to diagnose because it is similar to flu but, more importantly, it appears that this particular strain is becoming more virulent and more common and that it has an increasing tendency to cause clusters of meningitis cases. Traditionally, we have started immunisation programmes on the basis that most cases of meningitis are sporadic and that we need to wait for a second case within a month before we institute a mass vaccination programme. However, as there is increasing medical evidence at general practitioner level that meningitis C tends to cause clusters rather than sporadic cases, we should immunise after just one case.
Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad hwn ac ymunaf â chi i fynegi cydymdeimlad â phawb yn Ysgol Uwchradd Cwmcarn. O’r talcen glo, fel petai, gallaf ddweud bod llid yr ymennydd C fel petai yn newid. Mae’n mynd yn fwy anodd i’w ddarganfod am ei fod yn debyg i ffliw ond, yn bwysicach, mae’n ymddangos bod y math arbennig hwn yn mynd yn fwy ffyrnig ac yn fwy cyffredin a bod iddo duedd gynyddol i achosi clwstwr o achosion o lid yr ymennydd. Yn draddodiadol, yr ydym wedi cyflwyno rhaglenni imiwneiddio ar y sail mai achlysurol oedd y rhan fwyaf o achosion o lid yr ymennydd a bod angen inni ddisgwyl am ail achos o fewn mis cyn sefydlu rhaglen frechu ar raddfa eang. Fodd bynnag, gan fod tystiolaeth feddygol gynyddol ar lefel meddygon teulu fod llid yr ymennydd C yn tueddu i achosi clystyrau yn hytrach nag achosion achlysurol, dylem imiwneiddio ar ôl un achos yn unig.
I welcome Gwent Health Authority’s actions this week, and feel strongly that the management of meningitis C should not be compromised by difficulties in supplying the meningitis C vaccine. As you rightly pointed out, we have all welcomed the meningitis C programme. It is a significant medical advance. This vaccine successfully immunises 100 per cent against meningitis C. It is a lifelong immunisation. The children who are being immunised now will not need to be immunised again. Therefore, we are not talking about additional immunisations but rather the advancement of the programme for these particular children in Cwmcarn.
Croesawaf y ffordd y mae Awdurdod Iechyd Gwent wedi gweithredu’r wythnos hon, a theimlaf yn gryf na ddylai’r gwaith o reoli llid yr ymennydd C gael ei gyfaddawdu gan anawsterau i gyflenwi’r brechiad rhag llid yr ymennydd C. Fel y dywedoch yn gwbl gywir, mae pawb ohonom wedi croesawu’r rhaglen ar lid yr ymennydd C. Mae’n gam meddygol mawr ymlaen. Mae’r brechiad hwn yn imiwneiddio’n llwyddiannus 100 y cant yn erbyn llid yr ymennydd C. Mae’n imiwneiddiad am oes. Ni fydd raid i’r plant sydd yn cael eu himiwneiddio yn awr gael eu himiwneiddio fyth eto. Felly, nid ydym yn sôn am frechu ychwanegol ond yn hytrach am ddwyn y rhaglen ymlaen ar gyfer y plant arbennig hyn yng Nghwmcarn.
This is a significant medical advance. By keeping a thorough check on the supplies of the vaccine—I have made representations locally, as we have had problems in Swansea, and I have had letters from other parts of Wales about the organisation of this meningitis C programme—I hope that the management of meningitis C will not be at all compromised by problems of the meningitis C vaccine’s availability.
Mae hwn yn gam meddygol mawr ymlaen. Drwy gadw llygad manwl ar y cyflenwadau o’r brechiad—yr wyf wedi gwneud sylwadau yn lleol, gan inni gael problemau yn Abertawe, ac yr wyf wedi cael llythyrau o rannau eraill o Gymru ynglŷn â threfniadaeth y rhaglen hon ar lid yr ymennydd C—gobeithiaf na fydd y gwaith o reoli llid yr ymennydd C yn cael ei gyfaddawdu o gwbl gan broblemau’n ymwneud â sicrhau cyflenwadau o’r brechiad.
I accept those points. We have a vaccine that will provide lifelong protection and, by the end of this year, our children will be protected. As I announced last summer when we realised that the vaccine would be introduced, the fact that we had to prioritise the target age groups was accepted in relation to the supplies of vaccine. Health authorities throughout Wales then came together to agree the prioritisation and how they would arrange the roll-out programme in their communities, making certain that it fitted our guidelines and ensuring equity of access to this important vaccine.
Derbyniaf y pwyntiau yna. Mae gennym frechiad a fydd yn rhoi amddiffyniad am oes ac, erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon, bydd ein plant wedi eu hamddiffyn. Fel y cyhoeddais yr haf diwethaf, pan sylweddolasom y byddai’r brechiad yn cael ei gyflwyno, derbyniwyd y ffaith fod yn rhaid inni flaenoriaethau’r grwpiau oedran targed ar sail y cyflenwadau o’r brechiad. Daeth awdurdodau iechyd o bob rhan o Gymru at ei gilydd wedyn i gytuno ar y blaenoriaethau a sut y byddent yn trefnu’r rhaglen fesul-cam yn eu cymunedau, gan wneud yn siŵr ei bod yn cyd-fynd â’n canllawiau ni a sicrhau bod pawb yn gallu manteisio’n gydradd ar y brechiad pwysig hwn.
This situation in Cwmcarn has served to ensure that we must be vigilant in Wales. I want and expect to hear the concerns of Assembly Members in their local areas. We must accept that the roll-out programme will take a year because of vaccine supply. As far as meningitis C is concerned, we must recognise expert and clinical advice about this new strain that might be developing and about how we can address it in relation to these tragic situations.
Yn sgîl y sefyllfa hon yng Nghwmcarn, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod ar ein gwyliadwriaeth yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn dymuno ac yn disgwyl clywed pryderon Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn eu hardaloedd lleol. Rhaid inni dderbyn y bydd y rhaglen fesul-cam yn cymryd blwyddyn oherwydd cyflenwad y brechiad. Cyn belled ag y mae llid yr ymennydd C yn y cwestiwn, rhaid inni gydnabod cyngor arbenigol a chlinigol am y math newydd hwn a allai fod yn datblygu a sut y gallwn fynd i’r afael ag ef yng nghyd-destun y sefyllfaoedd trasig hyn.
The Conservative group adds its condolences to the family concerned on its tragic loss. Can the Assembly Secretary reassure parents and those vulnerable groups concerned that every effort is being made to produce this vaccine as speedily as possible and that there are no cost implications in its present restricted supply?
Mae’r grŵp Ceidwadol yn ychwanegu ei gydymdeimlad â’r teulu dan sylw ar ei golled enbyd. A all Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad roi sicrwydd i rieni a’r grwpiau hynny sydd yn hawdd i’w niweidio fod pob ymdrech yn cael ei gwneud i gynhyrchu’r brechiad hwn cyn gyflymed â phosibl ac nad oes unrhyw oblygiadau cost yn y prinder cyflenwadau ar hyn o bryd?
Absolutely, David. We had to find £8 million to bring this forward last year. We were not expecting it last year and we managed to secure £8 million. It will cost £16 million over the next three years. The restricted supply has nothing to do with money. As the vaccine comes through from the drug companies—there are three drug companies producing it—it will go into the roll-out programmes which are managed by the health authorities. I hope that that has given clear assurance to everyone in the Assembly.
Yn bendant, David. Bu’n rhaid inni ganfod £8 miliwn i ddod â hyn ymlaen y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Nid oeddem yn ei ddisgwyl y flwyddyn ddiwethaf a llwyddom i sicrhau £8 miliwn. Bydd yn costio £16 miliwn dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Nid oes a wnelo’r prinder cyflenwadau ddim oll ag arian. Fel y bydd y brechiad ar gael oddi wrth y cwmnïau cyffuriau—mae tri chwmni cyffuriau yn ei gynhyrchu—bydd yn mynd i’r rhaglenni fesul-cam sydd yn cael eu rheoli gan yr awdurdodau iechyd. Gobeithiaf fod hyn yn rhoi sicrwydd clir i bawb yn y Cynulliad.
I join my colleagues in expressing the condolence of the Liberal Democrat group to the family concerned at a terrible time for all in that community
Ymunaf â’m cyd-Aelodau i fynegi cydymdeimlad grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol â’r teulu dan sylw ar adeg ddychrynllyd i bawb yn y gymuned honno.
I welcome the early introduction of this vaccine. It is, as you have stated, a year ahead of time. The children that have been able to receive it are getting it a year sooner than envisaged. That is welcome news. However, we should remember that the vaccine only protects against one strain of meningitis. We need to redouble our efforts to educate people about how to identify meningitis in all of its strains. Parents and those caring for young people should be reminded to be vigilant when there are indications of what could possibly be meningitis, especially at a time when flu has been prominent. Meningitis often goes hand in hand with flu outbreaks and we can therefore expect more meningitis cases this winter. This is an opportunity to remind people to be vigilant when caring for young children and to remind students to care for each other. I welcome your assurance that the length of the roll-out programme is not due to lack of financial resources but vaccine shortages. I ask you to redouble your efforts in ensuring that as much vaccine as possible is secured for general practitioners throughout Wales.
Croesawaf y ffaith i’r brechiad hwn gael ei gyflwyno’n gynnar. Fel y dywedasoch, mae flwyddyn o flaen ei amser. Mae’r plant sydd wedi gallu ei gael yn ei gael flwyddyn ynghynt na’r disgwyl. Mae hynny yn newyddion da. Fodd bynnag, dylem gofio nad yw’r brechiad ond yn amddiffyn rhag un math o lid yr ymennydd. Mae angen inni fwrw ati o’r newydd i addysgu pobl am sut mae adnabod llid yr ymennydd yn ei holl ffurfiau. Dylid atgoffa rhieni a’r rhai sydd yn gofalu am bobl ifanc i fod yn wyliadwrus pan fo arwyddion o’r hyn a allai fod yn lid yr ymennydd, yn enwedig ar adeg pan fu llawer o ffliw. Mae llid yr ymennydd yn aml yn mynd law yn llaw ag achosion o’r ffliw ac felly gallwn ddisgwyl mwy o achosion o lid yr ymennydd y gaeaf hwn. Mae hwn yn gyfle i atgoffa pobl i fod yn wyliadwrus wrth ofalu am blant ifanc ac i atgoffa myfyrwyr i ofalu am ei gilydd. Croesawaf y sicrwydd a roddwyd gennych nad yw hyd y rhaglen fesul-cam i’w briodoli i ddiffyg adnoddau ariannol ond i brinder brechiadau. A gaf fi ofyn ichi ymdrechu o’r newydd i sicrhau bod cymaint o’r brechiad â phosibl yn cael ei sicrhau ar gyfer meddygon teulu ledled Cymru.
Your remarks about meningitis B and the necessary research are very appropriate at this time. Our officials are ensuring that enough public information is available and that people are educated about this, as was agreed in the guidelines of the report, published last year, of the group chaired by Professor Ian Cameron. These must be carried through with even more vigilance now because of the concern that has arisen due to media attention. The media can also help us to ensure that the correct facts are relayed to the public.
Mae eich sylwadau am lid yr ymennydd B a’r ymchwil angenrheidiol yn dra phriodol ar yr adeg hon. Mae ein swyddogion yn sicrhau bod digon o wybodaeth gyhoeddus ar gael a bod pobl yn cael eu haddysgu am hyn, fel y cytunwyd yng nghanllawiau adroddiad y grŵp dan gadeiryddiaeth yr Athro Ian Cameron, a gyhoeddwyd y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Rhaid mynd â’r maen i’r wal yn fwy diwyd byth yn awr oherwydd y pryder sydd wedi deillio o’r sylw ar y cyfryngau. Gall y cyfryngau ein helpu hefyd i sicrhau bod y ffeithiau cywir yn cael eu cyfleu i’r cyhoedd.
I acknowledge that this is about the vaccine becoming available. There is a difficulty with availability of the vaccine. The drug companies are producing the vaccine as fast as they can. I assure the Assembly that the health authorities of Wales are receiving their fair share of supplies and that supplies will be made available to ensure that the roll-out can be adhered to.
Yr wyf yn cydnabod mai mater o sicrhau bod y brechiad ar gael yw hwn. Mae anhawster o ran cael cyflenwadau. Mae’r cwmnïau cyffuriau yn cynhyrchu’r brechiad cyn gyflymed ag y medrant. Rhoddaf sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad fod awdurdodau iechyd Cymru yn derbyn eu cyfran deg o’r cyflenwadau ac y darperir cyflenwadau i sicrhau y gellir cadw at y rhaglen fesul-cam.
Cwmcarn is in my constituency, and following the sad death of 14-year-old Ashley Burnett, our thoughts are with the family, who, as you can imagine, must be devastated. A young baby is also ill but is now recovering. The community has therefore been extremely concerned. A meeting was organised by parents on Monday night in the local rugby club. Public health representatives were present along with the local Member of Parliament and myself. The parents learned in the meeting that the programme had been accelerated to ensure that vaccination will start tomorrow for the pupils in years 7, 8, 9 and 10 of Cwmcarn High School. Years 11, 12 and 13 have already been vaccinated. Swapping months has led to an acceleration of the programme. There is no change in the inoculation principle. Swapping months was a suggestion that I made to the director of public health for Gwent, Dr Eddy Coyle, last Friday. In the technical or clinical meeting on Monday it was decided that that was possible and it was then announced to the public. That proves that we are trying to protect young people and to assure parents of our concern about this issue.
Mae Cwmcarn yn fy etholaeth i, ac yn dilyn marwolaeth drist Ashley Burnett, 14-mlwydd-oed, mae ein meddyliau gyda’i deulu sydd, fel y gallwn ddychmygu, mewn trallod. Mae babi ifanc hefyd yn sâl ond mae’n gwella erbyn hyn. Mae’r gymuned felly wedi bod yn bryderus iawn. Trefnwyd cyfarfod gan rieni nos Lun yn y clwb rygbi lleol. Yr oedd cynrychiolwyr iechyd cyhoeddus yn bresennol ynghyd â’r Aelod Seneddol lleol a minnau. Clywodd y rhieni yn y cyfarfod fod y rhaglen wedi cael ei chyflymu i sicrhau y byddir yn dechrau brechu disgyblion ym mlynyddoedd 7, 8, 9 a 10 yn Ysgol Uwchradd Cwmcarn yfory. Mae blynyddoedd 11, 12 a 13 eisoes wedi eu brechu. Drwy gyfnewid misoedd llwyddwyd i gyflymu’r rhaglen. Nid oes unrhyw newid yn yr egwyddor brechu. Yr oedd cyfnewid misoedd yn awgrym a wneuthum i i gyfarwyddwr iechyd cyhoeddus Gwent, Dr Eddy Coyle, ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Yn y cyfarfod technegol neu glinigol ddydd Llun penderfynwyd bod hynny’n bosibl ac fe’i cyhoeddwyd i’r cyhoedd wedyn. Mae hynny’n profi ein bod yn ceisio amddiffyn pobl ifanc a sicrhau rhieni ein bod yn pryderu am y mater hwn.
Could we have a review of what constitutes a public health issue? I am concerned that one instance does not normally constitute a public health issue. That should be reviewed and the effect on the local community and parents considered. Reference has been made to research and development. I know that in November, a large number of batches failed. I was told that 100,000 doses of vaccine failed quality assurance. I am also led to believe that, while three companies manufacture the vaccine, only one is producing it at the moment. I am therefore concerned about the research and development that is being undertaken to produce the conjugated form—the new form—of vaccine that is intended to protect our children from this serious and often fatal illness.
A fedrem gael arolwg o’r hyn sydd yn creu ystyriaeth iechyd cyhoeddus? Yr wyf yn gofidio nad yw un achos fel arfer yn creu ystyriaeth iechyd cyhoeddus. Dylid edrych eto ar hynny ac ystyried yr effaith ar y gymuned leol a rhieni. Cyfeiriwyd at ymchwil a datblygu. Gwn fod nifer helaeth o setiau wedi methu fis Tachwedd diwethaf. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod 100,000 dos o’r brechiad wedi methu’r profion sicrhau ansawdd. Fe’m harweiniwyd i gredu hefyd, er bod tri chwmni yn cynhyrchu’r brechiad, mai dim ond un sydd yn gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf felly yn bryderus ynglŷn â’r ymchwil a’r datblygu sydd yn cael ei wneud i gynhyrchu ffurf gyfunedig—y ffurf newydd—y brechiad a fwriedir i amddiffyn ein plant rhag y salwch difrifol hwn sydd, yn aml, yn angheuol.
Following yesterday’s debate on the Chief Medical Officer’s report, in particular paragraph 4.21 that refers to young people and meningitis, if the upper age group of 16, 17, 18 and 19-year-olds is susceptible to this disease, can you confirm that sufficient vaccine will be available for all young people, be they in school, college, university or in employment? What steps have been taken to ensure that young people in employment will have the opportunity to receive the vaccine? These are people who still retain an association with the young people in their old schools or colleges.
Yn dilyn y ddadl ddoe ar adroddiad y Prif Swyddog Meddygol, yn enwedig baragraff 4.21 sydd yn cyfeirio at bobl ifanc a llid yr ymennydd, os yw’r clefyd hwn yn tueddu i daro’r grŵp oedran hŷn, sef y rhai 16, 17, 18 ac 19 mlwydd-oed, a fedrwch chi gadarnhau y bydd digon o’r brechiad ar gael i bob person ifanc, boed hwy yn yr ysgol, y coleg, y brifysgol neu mewn gwaith? Pa gamau sydd wedi eu cymryd i sicrhau y bydd pobl ifanc mewn gwaith yn cael cyfle i dderbyn y brechiad? Mae’r rhain yn bobl sydd yn dal i gadw cysylltiad gyda’r bobl ifanc yn eu hen ysgolion neu golegau?
I became aware of this at the end of the week and was in close touch with Don Touhig MP during the weekend. I am aware of your concerns and of how the community has approached those concerns by working together in the best interests of parents and children. This returns to the issue of accelerating the whole immunisation campaign knowing that difficulties in licensing the drug may arise. This has happened in advance of our expectations. We thought that the campaign would start in the spring. Difficulties and risks for the whole population become an issue if a campaign is accelerated in such a way. The fact that we had to have priority groups was bound to lead to difficulties in terms of acceleration. Also, when a new drug is introduced, some batches fail.
Deuthum yn ymwybodol o hyn ddiwedd yr wythnos ac yr oeddwn mewn cysylltiad agos â Don Touhig AS dros y penwythnos. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’ch pryderon a’r modd y mae’r gymuned wedi ymdrin â’r pryderon hyn drwy weithio gyda’i gilydd er lles pennaf rhieni a phlant. Daw hyn â ni’n ôl at y cwestiwn o gyflymu’r holl ymgyrch frechu gan wybod y gallai anawsterau godi ynglŷn â thrwyddedu’r cyffur. Mae hyn wedi digwydd yn gynt na’n disgwyliadau. Yr oeddem wedi meddwl y byddai’r ymgyrch yn dechrau yn y gwanwyn. Mae anawsterau a risgiau i’r boblogaeth gyfan yn dod yn fater o bwys os caiff ymgyrch ei chyflymu fel hyn. Yr oedd y ffaith bod yn rhaid inni gael grwpiau blaenoriaeth yn sicr o arwain at anawsterau o ran cyflymu. Hefyd, pan gyflwynir cyffur newydd, mae rhai setiau ohono yn methu.
We must applaud the health authorities, schools, nurses and everyone involved in the delivery of the immunisation campaign. They have done their utmost to ensure that it is implemented and is monitored carefully. Today’s statement serves to ensure that we are extra vigilant during the coming months in dealing with possible concerns. This is a public health issue for the whole of Wales, not only for one community. The health authorities in Wales, including Gwent Health Authority, took the decision in partnership and in consultation with parents and elected representatives, to roll-on and review the way in which they were implementing their immunisation campaign. We must respect their right and views in doing that.
Rhaid inni ganmol yr awdurdodau iechyd, ysgolion, nyrsys a phawb sydd yn ymwneud â chyflawni’r ymgyrch imiwneidido. Maent wedi gwneud eu gorau i sicrhau ei bod yn cael ei rhoi ar waith a’i monitro’n ofalus. Mae’r datganiad hwn heddiw yn fodd i sicrhau ein bod yn neilltuol o wyliadwrus dros y misoedd i ddod wrth ddelio â phryderon posibl. Mae hon yn ystyriaeth iechyd cyhoeddus i Gymru gyfan, nid dim ond i un gymuned. Gwnaeth awdurdodau iechyd Cymru, gan gynnwys Awdurdod Iechyd Gwent, y penderfyniad mewn partneriaeth ac mewn ymgynghoriad â rhieni a chynrychiolwyr etholedig, i fwrw ymlaen ac adolygu’r ffordd yr oeddynt yn rhoi eu hymgyrch frechu ar waith. Rhaid inni barchu eu hawl a’u barn wrth wneud hynny.
We must consider other issues that have been raised, such as the 80 to 90 per cent take-up rate and young people in further education colleges. We must also reach out to communities and access young people via the New Deal or modern apprenticeships. These groups are also at risk and must be encouraged to come forward for vaccination. Dr Ruth Hall’s department and the health authorities are considering how to reach out to the older age group, and there are campaigns that involve this age group. I am grateful to you for bringing this to our attention. The issue has received publicity and there is information available, such as the meningitis C publication, to which all Assembly Members should have access. We must ensure that we reassure people. Some Assembly Members who are also doctors would be able to talk about this. However, I know that the vaccination gives lifelong protection.
Rhaid inni ystyried materion eraill sydd wedi eu codi, fel y gyfradd fanteisio o 80 i 90 y cant a phobl ifanc mewn colegau addysg bellach. Rhaid hefyd inni ymestyn allan i’r cymunedau a chysylltu â phobl ifanc drwy’r Fargen Newydd neu brentisiaethau modern. Mae yna risg i’r grwpiau hyn hefyd a rhaid eu hannog i ddod ymlaen i gael eu brechu. Mae adran Dr Ruth Hall a’r awdurdodau iechyd yn ystyried sut mae ymestyn allan i’r grŵp oedran hŷn, ac mae ymgyrchoedd sydd yn cynnwys y grŵp oedran hwn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ddod â hyn i’m sylw. Mae’r mater wedi cael cyhoeddusrwydd ac mae gwybodaeth ar gael, fel y cyhoeddiad ar lid yr ymennydd C, y dylai holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad allu cael gafael arno. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn tawelu meddyliau pobl. Gallai rhai o Aelodau’r Cynulliad sydd hefyd yn ddoctoriaid siarad am hyn. Fodd bynnag, gwn fod y brechiad yn rhoi amddiffyniad am oes.
We must also consider the contacts that people have and how they are likely to contract meningitis C. This can all be read in the meningitis C publication. It is better for information to be publicised clearly in such a publication and to be read by people who can then be reassured in terms of the risks they may face in their schools and communities.
Rhaid inni ystyried hefyd y cysylltiadau sydd gan bobl a sut y maent yn debygol o gael llid yr ymennydd C. Gellir darllen am hyn oll yn y cyhoeddiad ar lid yr ymennydd C. Mae’n well cyhoeddi gwybodaeth yn glir mewn cyhoeddiad o’r fath, i’w darllen gan bobl a thawelu eu hofnau ynghylch y risgiau y gallent eu hwynebu yn eu hysgolion a’u cymunedau.
I welcome this statement today. In sending my condolences to the family and friends of Ashley Burnett, I remind Assembly Members that Monday will be the anniversary of the death of Gareth Gould, who was a pupil at Coed-y-Lan County School in Pontypridd. We have had frenetic activity for a year with parental concern about meningitis and parents taking their children away from schools. Irrespective of the medical guidelines, which I can understand from a medical perspective, we must consider how to build public confidence in this issue in Wales. That is why I welcome today’s statement.
Croesawaf y datganiad hwn heddiw. Wrth anfon fy nghydymdeimlad at deulu a ffrindiau Ashley Burnett, atgoffaf Aelodau’r Cynulliad y bydd dydd Llun yn ben-blwydd marwolaeth Gareth Gould, a oedd yn ddisgybl yn Ysgol Sirol Coed-y-Lan ym Mhontypridd. Cawsom flwyddyn orffwyll o weithredu gyda rhieni’n poeni am lid yr ymennydd a rhieni’n tynnu eu plant o ysgolion. Ni waeth beth fo’r canllawiau meddygol, y gallaf eu deall o safbwynt meddygol, mae’n rhaid inni ystyried sut mae ennyn hyder y cyhoedd ar y mater hwn yng Nghymru. Dyna pam y croesawaf y datganiad heddiw.
Today’s headline in the Pontypridd Observer states ‘There is no shortage of C vaccine’. A spokesman from the Wyeth factory in Berkshire, which is currently the only producer of the vaccine, said in an interview that it is delivering exactly what it promised in an agreement that was made in October with the Department of Health.
Dywed y pennawd heddiw yn y Pontypridd Observer ‘Nid oes prinder o’r brechiad C’. Dywedodd llefarydd o ffatri Wyeth yn Berkshire, yr unig ffatri sydd yn cynhyrchu’r brechiad ar hyn o bryd, mewn cyfweliad ei bod yn cyflawni yr hyn yn union a addawodd mewn cytundeb a wnaethpwyd fis Hydref gyda’r Adran Iechyd.
Could you, with the Department of Health, review that agreement to ensure that if there is any possibility of extra supplies coming to Wales, they do so? Could the health authorities in Wales have guidance to vaccinate those schools where there has been an identified case, first? We have a particular problem in Pontypridd where there were four further cases of meningitis in January. The vaccination programme was due to start on 14 January in Tonyrefail, but was suspended at the height of parental concern because of a further case in the area. I ask you to write to the Pontypridd Observer to ensure that parents understand that we are jointly, on behalf of the Assembly as a whole, looking after the interests of parents in Wales.
A fedrech chi, ynghyd â’r Adran Iechyd, adolygu’r cytundeb hwnnw i sicrhau, os oes unrhyw bosibilrwydd o gyflenwadau ychwanegol yn dod i Gymru, fod hynny’n digwydd? A fedr yr awdurdodau iechyd yng Nghymru gael canllawiau i frechu’r ysgolion hynny lle cofnodwyd achos, yn gyntaf? Mae gennym broblem arbennig ym Mhontypridd lle cafwyd pedwar achos pellach o lid yr ymennydd fis Ionawr. Yr oedd y rhaglen frechu i fod i ddechrau ar 14 Ionawr yn Nhonyrefail, ond cafodd ei hatal pan oedd pryderon rhieni yn yr ardal, yn sgîl achos pellach yn yr ardal, ar eu hanterth. Gofynnaf ichi ysgrifennu at y Pontypridd Observer i sicrhau bod rhieni yn deall ein bod ni ar y cyd, ar ran y Cynulliad yn ei gyfanrwydd, yn gwarchod buddiannau rhieni yng Nghymru.
I appreciate that. I think we all want to remember that anniversary today and the communities in your constituency who have suffered so much as a result of meningitis. I welcome the fact that the introduction of this new vaccine is welcomed by the people in those communities. We must now ensure confidence by reassuring the public that they will benefit, and that the children in those communities will get access to the vaccine.
Yr wyf yn sylweddoli hynny. Credaf fod pawb ohonom am gofio’r pen blwydd hwn heddiw a’r cymunedau yn eich etholaeth chi sydd wedi dioddef cymaint yn sgîl llid yr ymennydd. Croesawaf y ffaith fod cyflwyno’r brechiad newydd hwn yn cael ei groesawu gan y bobl yn y cymunedau hynny. Rhaid inni yn awr ennyn hyder drwy sicrhau’r cyhoedd y byddant yn elwa, ac y bydd y plant yn y cymunedau hyn yn gallu cael y brechiad.
I will certainly respond to the Pontypridd Observer to ensure that it receives the correct message and knows the situation. There is no stockpile of the vaccine on which to draw to speed up the programme. We must go back to our health officials and guidelines to consider whether some schools can come forward for vaccination before others. Because of the roll-out programme, it is a changed situation to that which we had a year ago when we welcomed the guideline report that was introduced to the Assembly. We must look again at that report. It is the responsibility of each health authority to implement the roll-out programme according to the supplies, which they approved and have been agreed based on population. I am grateful that you have again drawn to our attention the unfortunate and tragic suffering of parents and schools in your community. I will note your points.
Byddaf yn sicr yn ymateb i’r Pontypridd Observer i wneud yn siŵr ei fod yn cael y neges gywir ac yn deall y sefyllfa. Nid oes stôr o’r brechiad i droi ato er mwyn cyflymu’r rhaglen. Rhaid inni fynd yn ôl at ein swyddogion iechyd a’r canllawiau i ystyried a ellir symud rhai ysgolion ymlaen i gael eu brechu cyn eraill. Oherwydd y rhaglen fesul-cam, mae’r sefyllfa’n wahanol i’r hyn a oedd gennym flwyddyn yn ôl pan estynasom groeso i’r adroddiad canllawiau a gyflwynwyd i’r Cynulliad. Rhaid inni edrych eto ar yr adroddiad hwnnw. Cyfrifoldeb pob awdurdod iechyd yw rhoi’r rhaglen fesul-cam ar waith yn unol â’r cyflenwadau, a gymeradwywyd ganddynt hwy ac y cytunwyd arnynt ar sail poblogaeth. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar eich bod wedi tynnu ein sylw unwaith eto at ddioddefaint anffodus ac enbyd rhieni ac ysgolion yn eich cymuned. Byddaf yn nodi eich pwyntiau.
Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad
The New Assembly Building
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Glyn Davies, amendment 2 in the name of Michael German and amendment 3 in the name of Helen Mary Jones.
Yr wyf wedi dewis gwelliant 1 yn enw Glyn Davies, gwelliant 2 yn enw Michael German a gwelliant 3 yn enw Helen Mary Jones.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 35
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
I propose that the Assembly:
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad yn:
Alun Michael The First Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 36
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
This motion will give the go ahead for a landmark building as the home of democracy in Wales. I am happy to support amendments 2 and 3, but I do not support amendment 1.
Bydd y cynnig hwn yn caniatáu dechrau gwaith ar adeilad a fydd yn garreg filltir fel cartref democratiaeth yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi gwelliannau 2 a 3, ond nid wyf yn cefnogi gwelliant 1.
I agree that we should be open and transparent about all aspects of the building, including the costs. We will, as far as we can, make information about costs readily available. However, I am sure Members will appreciate that on occasions, considerations of commercial confidentiality might restrict the level of detail that can be disclosed publicly. That is always the case. Sensitive information will be shared with the other party leaders and with you, Llywydd, through the group that we have established for that purpose.
Cytunaf y dylem fod yn agored ac yn dryloyw ynghylch pob agwedd ar yr adeilad, gan gynnwys y costau. Fe sicrhawn, hyd y gallwn, bod gwybodaeth am y costau ar gael yn rhwydd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Aelodau’n sylweddoli y gallai ystyriaethau cyfrinachedd masnachol weithiau gyfyngu ar lefel y manylion y gellir eu datgelu’n gyhoeddus. Mae hynny bob amser yn wir. Caiff gwybodaeth sensitif ei rhannu gydag arweinyddion y pleidiau eraill a gyda chi, Mr Llywydd, drwy’r grŵp a sefydlwyd gennym i’r diben hwnnw.
We want the new building to be exemplary in terms of environmental standards and practice. The architect’s brief is in line with amendment 3, tabled by Helen Mary. I am happy for the issues in amendments 2 and 3 to be dealt with explicitly by incorporating them into the motion.
Mae arnom eisiau i’r adeilad newydd fod yn batrwm yn nhermau safonau ac arfer amgylcheddol. Mae brîff y pensaer yn unol â gwelliant 3, a gyflwynir gan Helen Mary. Yr wyf yn hapus i ddelio â’r materion yng ngwelliannau 2 a 3 yn benodol drwy eu corffori yn y cynnig.
Amendment 1 in the name of Glyn Davies is not in the best interest of the Assembly, although it may be a predictable response on the part of Conservative Members. This Chamber has got us off to a good start, but it has undesirable limitations in the long term and I am not only referring to the pillars that occasionally hide some Members. On 20 July, the Assembly endorsed the development of a new Assembly building, following an opportunity to express views on the initial design concept. Clear views were given by Assembly Members. Many Members, across different parties, underlined the most important points. The views given by Assembly Members have since been subjected to detailed consideration. That has resulted in the revised design proposals which are summarised in the paper that accompanies this motion and were described to Members in last week’s presentation by the architect and the project team. As a result of those discussions, the Assembly has improved our own building at the design stage.
Nid yw gwelliant 1 yn enw Glyn Davies er lles gorau’r Cynulliad, er efallai ei fod yn ymateb y gallesid ei ragweld ar ran yr Aelodau Ceidwadol. Mae’r Siambr hon wedi rhoi man cychwyn da inni, ond mae iddi ei chyfyngiadau annymunol yn y tymor hir, ac nid dim ond sôn yr ydwyf am y pileri sydd weithiau’n cuddio rhai Aelodau. Ar 20 Gorffennaf, cadarnhaodd y Cynulliad y bwriad i ddatblygu adeilad Cynulliad newydd, yn dilyn cyfle i fynegi barn ar y cysyniad dylunio cychwynnol. Mynegwyd safbwyntiau clir gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Tanlinellodd sawl Aelod, ar draws gwahanol bleidiau, y pwyntiau pwysicaf. Ers hynny rhoddwyd sylw manwl i’r sylwadau a fynegwyd gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Canlyniad hynny yw’r cynigion dylunio diwygiedig a grynhoir yn y papur sydd yn cyd-fynd â’r cynnig hwn ac a ddisgrifiwyd i Aelodau mewn cyflwyniad yr wythnos diwethaf gan y pensaer a thîm y prosiect. O ganlyniad i’r trafodaethau hynny, mae’r Cynulliad wedi gwella’n hadeilad ni ein hun yn y cyfnod dylunio.
The main high level concerns expressed by Members in July were, first, that the design did not live up to our expectations with regards to accessibility, particularly access for people with disabilities. Secondly, that the level of provision for members of the public to be able to witness at first-hand the proceedings in the Committee rooms as well as the debating chamber needed to be improved. Thirdly, that the Committee rooms needed to be designed to take account of our experiences in those used as a temporary facility in this building. Those views were taken seriously and the architect has produced positive and imaginative solutions to address them.
Y prif bryderon lefel uchel a fynegwyd gan Aelodau ym mis Gorffennaf oedd, yn gyntaf, nad oedd y dyluniad yn cwrdd â’n disgwyliadau o ran hygyrchedd, yn enwedig o ran mynediad i bobl ag anableddau. Yn ail, yr oedd angen gwella lefel y ddarpariaeth i aelodau’r cyhoedd allu gweld â’u llygaid eu hunain y trafodaethau yn yr ystafelloedd Pwyllgor yn ogystal ag yn y Siambr. Yn drydydd, yr oedd angen dylunio’r ystafelloedd Pwyllgor gan roi sylw i’n profiadau yn yr ystafelloedd a ddefnyddiwyd fel cyfleuster dros-dro yn yr adeilad hwn. Rhoddwyd ystyriaeth ddifrifol i’r sylwadau hyn a chynhyrchodd y pensaer atebion cadarnhaol a dychmygus i ymateb iddynt.
We now have a design for a building that enables access for all, while retaining the best features of the original design, whose concept was one of of openness and transparency. The point was made in the discussion last week that stairs are an opportunity of access for people without disability but can be a barrier for those with disability. It was therefore important to reconcile those two. Crucially, there is now a drop-off point at the main entrance which gives access to all at the level at which the public will use the Assembly building. There will now also be gently sloping ramps from the waterside level up to the main entrance, providing an alternative to the steps. In addition, an external lift access from the waterside level will provide a further option for anyone who wishes to enter the building from road level.
Yn awr mae gennym gynllun adeilad a fydd yn caniatáu mynediad i bawb, tra’n cadw nodweddion gorau’r cynllun gwreiddiol, a’i gysyniad agored a thryloyw. Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt yn y drafodaeth yr wythnos diwethaf fod grisiau’n gyfle i bobl heb anabledd gael mynediad ond y gallant fod yn rhwystr i rai ag anabledd. Yr oedd yn bwysig cymodi’r ddau begwn felly. Yn allweddol, mae man gollwng wedi’i roi bellach wrth y brif fynedfa sydd yn caniatáu mynediad i bawb ar y lefel lle bydd y cyhoedd yn defnyddio adeilad y Cynulliad. Hefyd bellach ceir rampiau heb fod yn rhy serth o lefel y dŵr i fyny at y brif fynedfa, y gellir eu defnyddio yn lle’r grisiau. At hynny, bydd mynedfa drwy lifft allanol o lefel y dŵr yn darparu dewis arall i unrhyw un sydd yn dymuno mynd i mewn i’r adeilad o lefel y ffordd.
Once visitors are inside the building they will have access to all the major public facilities on a single level. Previously, that was stepped through the building. Taken together, these changes represent an excellent response to the concerns on accessibility raised by Members and others. Disability Wales and the Cardiff and Vale Coalition of Disabled People, the local organisation, have both welcomed the progress that these changes represent. Naturally, they are equally keen to ensure that further detailed design also supports accessibility for all. We will ensure that they have every opportunity to influence the detailed design, and the motion today gives that promise. We will appoint an accessibility consultant to establish objectives on accessibility. Disability Wales will be invited to be involved in that appointment, and we will review the design team’s ongoing work in meeting these objectives.
Unwaith y bydd ymwelwyr y tu mewn i’r adeilad gallant fynd i’r holl brif gyfleusterau i’r cyhoedd ar un llawr. Gynt, yr oedd y rhain ar wahanol lefelau drwy’r adeilad. At ei gilydd, mae’r newidiadau hyn yn ymateb rhagorol i’r pryderon ynghylch hygyrchedd a godwyd gan Aelodau ac eraill. Mae Anabledd Cymru a Chlymblaid Pobl Anabl Caerdydd a’r Fro, y corff lleol, ill dau wedi croesawu’r camau ymlaen a gynrychiolir gan y newidiadau hyn. Yn naturiol, maent yr un mor awyddus i sicrhau bod unrhyw ddylunio manwl pellach yn caniatáu mynediad i bawb. Byddwn yn sicrhau y cânt bob cyfle i ddylanwadu ar y dyluniad manwl, ac mae’r cynnig heddiw yn rhoi’r addewid hwnnw. Byddwn yn penodi ymgynghorydd hygyrchedd i bennu targedau hygyrchedd. Gwahoddir Anabledd Cymru i gael llais yn y penodiad hwnnw, a byddwn yn adolygu gwaith y tîm cynllunio yn gyson i weld eu bod yn cyflawni’r targedau hyn.
Revised plans for the debating chamber allow access for 100 members of the public and 30 members of the media, which doubles the present provision. Galleries have been introduced for each of the three Committee rooms. These will be entered from the public area at the first floor level, as will the Chamber. This greatly improves and simplifies the interface between the public, the media and Assembly Members during the Assembly’s work, and particularly during Committee work. The public and the press will be able to enter and leave as they wish, without affecting the Committee’s proceedings. The changes also improve the working area of the Committee rooms for Members and those presenting evidence, creating a more open working space for the task. This came up in discussion with Members last week: it will make the distinction between Members of the public who are coming to observe and to hear what happens in the Committee and the members of the public or representative organisations who are coming to participate, perhaps by giving evidence. It therefore creates a more practical working environment for all.
Mae cynlluniau diwygiedig ar gyfer y siambr ddadlau yn caniatáu mynediad i 100 o aelodau’r cyhoedd a 30 o aelodau’r cyfryngau, sy’n dyblu’r ddarpariaeth bresennol. Cyflwynwyd orielau i bob un o’r tair ystafell Bwyllgor. Gellir mynd i’r rhain, ac i’r Siambr, o’r man cyhoeddus ar lefel y llawr cyntaf. Dyma gam mawr i wella a symleiddio’r rhyngwyneb rhwng y cyhoedd, y cyfryngau ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ystod gwaith y Cynulliad, ac yn enwedig yn ystod gwaith Pwyllgorau. Bydd y cyhoedd a’r wasg yn gallu mynd a dod fel y mynnont, heb effeithio ar waith y Pwyllgor. Mae’r newidiadau hefyd yn gwella arwynebedd gweithio’r ystafelloedd Pwyllgor i Aelodau a rhai sydd yn cyflwyno tystiolaeth, gan greu lle gweithio mwy agored ar gyfer y gwaith. Codwyd hyn mewn trafodaeth gydag Aelodau yr wythnos diwethaf: bydd yn tynnu’r llinell rhwng aelodau’r cyhoedd sydd yn dod i weld a chlywed beth sydd yn digwydd yn y Pwyllgor ac aelodau’r cyhoedd neu gyrff cynrychioliadol a ddaw i gymryd rhan, efallai drwy roi tystiolaeth. Bydd felly’n creu amgylchedd gweithio mwy ymarferol i bawb.
These changes, along with more detailed consideration of some elements of the plan, have led to some increase in the cost estimates for the scheme. I am confident that we now have full and robust cost estimates. The Finance Secretary and I have sought assurances that the design can be built within the estimates, provided that there are no unforeseen events or design changes. Having examined the cost estimates, I believe that they represent good value for money and that they are not excessive for a major public building of this status.
Mae’r newidiadau hyn, ynghyd ag ystyriaeth fanylach i rai elfennau o’r cynllun, wedi arwain at ryw gymaint o gynnydd yn yr amcangyfrifon cost ar gyfer y cynllun. Yr wyf yn hyderus fod gennym amcangyfrifon cost llawn a chadarn erbyn hyn. Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid a minnau wedi gofyn am sicrwydd y gellir adeiladu’r cynllun o fewn yr amcangyfrifon, os na cheir unrhyw ddigwyddiadau na ragwelwyd na newidiadau dyluniad. Wedi archwilio’r amcangyfrifon cost, credaf eu bod yn cynnig gwerth da am arian ac nad ydynt yn ormodol ar gyfer adeilad cyhoeddus mawr o’r safon hwn.
It was made clear from the start that the cost estimate of £12.5 million for building construction did not include a number of items—external works and landscaping, fitting out, inflation provision and the costs of recent changes. That was made clear when the presentation was made some months ago. It was made clear that these items would take the cost to over £20 million. A full review of all estimates—
Dywedwyd yn glir o’r cychwyn cyntaf nad oedd yr amcangyfrif cost o £12.5 miliwn am waith adeiladu yn cynnwys nifer o eitemau—gwaith allanol a thirlunio, gosod cyfarpar, darpariaeth ar gyfer chwyddiant a chostau newidiadau diweddar. Gwnaethpwyd hynny’n glir pan roddwyd y cyflwyniad rai misoedd yn ôl. Dywedwyd yn glir y byddai’r eitemau hyn yn mynd â’r gost dros £20 miliwn. Byddai adolygiad llawn o’r amcangyfrifon i gyd—
A allwch chi gadarnhau mai elfen gymharol fechan o’r cynnydd yn y gost sydd oherwydd anghenion pobl anabl a bod newidiadau eraill yn gyfrifol am ran sylweddol o’r cynnydd? Gan gymryd mai dyna yw’r sefyllfa, pam yr ydym yn wynebu cymaint o gynnydd yn y gost oherwydd eitemau nad oeddent wedi eu prisio yn llawn yn wreiddiol?
Can you confirm that a comparatively small element of that cost increase is due to the needs of disabled people and that other adaptations are responsible for a substantial amount of that increase? Assuming that that is the case, why do we face such an increase in cost due to items that had not originally been fully costed?
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 39
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh and English p. 39
Nid oes llawer o gynnydd yn y gost. Cost yr adeilad yn unig oedd y ffigur cyntaf. Dyna sydd yn arferol mewn cystadleuaeth fel hon. Nid yw’r cynllun gwreiddiol yn cynnwys llawer o’r eitemau sydd yn ychwanegu’n sylweddol at y cyfanswm terfynol. Bu hynny’n amlwg yn ystod y gystadleuaeth nes i ni dderbyn y wybodaeth oddi wrth y pensaer ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, ac nes inni dderbyn y wybodaeth bresennol.
in Welsh The cost has not increased very much. The first figure was the cost of the building alone. That is the usual practice in a competition such as this. The original design does not include many of the items that substantially add to the final cost. That was evident during the competition until we received the information from the architect a few months ago, and until this current information was received.
I have been involved once or twice with design competitions. It is almost part of their nature that the original design concept includes a tight footprint and costing of the essential building, but that everything else is excluded. The competition guidelines specify whether the cost should include items such as fitting out and environmental costs and so on. Those are normally excluded. That was made clear at the end of the design competition, in the design brief and in our briefing. When Members were briefed last week, a comparison was made so that we could compare like with like from the beginning. That information is on the intranet. The changes include some cost increases in respect of disability. They also take account of the increased numbers for the public gallery so that there is greater public access. They also include improving the interface between the public area, the main Chamber and the Committee rooms. The design is more practical and down to earth.
yn Saesneg Yr wyf wedi ymwneud â chystadlaethau dylunio unwaith neu ddwy. Mae bron yn rhan o’u natur fod y cysyniad dylunio gwreiddiol yn dynn o ran ‘ôl troed’ a chost yr adeilad hanfodol, ond bod popeth arall heb ei gynnwys. Bydd canllawiau’r gystadleuaeth yn pennu a ddylai’r gost gynnwys eitemau megis gosod cyfarpar a chostau amgylcheddol ac yn y blaen. Ni chaiff y rhain eu cynnwys fel arfer. Nodwyd hynny’n glir ar ddiwedd y gystadleuaeth ddylunio, yn y brîff dylunio ac yn ein briffio ni. Pan gafodd Aelodau eu briffio’r wythnos diwethaf, gwnaethpwyd cymhariaeth fel y gallwn gymharu tebyg wrth ei debyg o’r dechrau. Mae’r wybodaeth honno ar y fewnrwyd. Mae’r newidiadau’n cynnwys ychydig o gostau uwch ar gyfer anabledd. Maent hefyd yn cynnwys y niferoedd uwch i’r oriel gyhoeddus er mwyn sicrhau mwy o fynediad i’r cyhoedd, ac yn cynnwys gwella’r rhyngwyneb rhwng y man cyhoeddus, y brif Siambr a’r ystafelloedd Pwyllgor. Mae’r dyluniad yn fwy ymarferol a thraed-ar-y-ddaear.
The change is the result of the full review of all estimated costs. In that information, which was spelt out to Members last week, the full estimated project cost—as opposed to the basic building cost—of the design that we examined and questioned in late autumn to early winter was £20.45 million. Making provision for the recent changes increases the estimated cost to £22.8 million. Therefore, the direct comparison for all aspects of the development is £20.45 to £22.8 million. These figures have been available on the intranet since the presentation last Wednesday so that Members could see the full breakdown and explanation.
yn Saesneg Mae’r newid yn ganlyniad i’r adolygiad llawn o’r holl gostau amcangyfrifedig. Yn y wybodaeth honno, a amlinellwyd i Aelodau yr wythnos diwethaf, yr oedd yr amcangyfrif o gost lawn y prosiect—yn hytrach na chost yr adeiladu sylfaenol—o safbwynt y dyluniad a archwiliwyd ac a gwestiynwyd gennym rhwng yr hydref a’r gaeaf cynnar yn £20.45 miliwn. Wrth ddarparu ar gyfer y newidiadau diweddar, codir yr amcangyfrif cost i £22.8 miliwn. Felly, y gymhariaeth uniongyrchol ar gyfer holl agweddau’r datblygiad yw £20.45 i £22.8 miliwn. Mae’r ffigurau hynny ar gael ar y fewnrwyd ers y cyflwyniad ddydd Mercher diwethaf fel y gallai Aelodau weld y dadansoddiad ac eglurhad llawn.
I am grateful to the First Secretary for clarifying that the cost was not actually £12.4 million and that it was going to be £20 million all the time. Can he confirm that the targeted cost of £22.8 million is the final cost and that there are no other hidden costs of which we are unaware and that the cost will not rise any further?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am egluro nad £12.4 miliwn oedd y gost mewn gwirionedd a’i fod yn £20 miliwn ers y dechrau. A all gadarnhau mai’r gost darged o £22.8 miliwn yw’r gost derfynol ac nad oes unrhyw gostau cudd eraill nad ydym yn gwybod amdanynt ac nad yw’r gost am godi’n uwch eto?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 40
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I hope that that is the case. Everybody who has any experience of building is aware that it is usual practice with projects of this type to build a contingency. Professional advice generally indicates a contingency figure of 15 per cent. We want to ensure that there is strict financial control over this project, therefore we will take that professional advice into account in setting the level of financial provision. There will only be a call against contingency with the express permission of the Finance Secretary. The committee of Members that was mentioned earlier, representing all four parties and the Presiding Officer, will monitor spending against costs carefully throughout the process. In my experience, one has to be careful about costs from the beginning. It is no use waiting until afterwards and doing things retrospectively. The project team understands that.
Yr wyf yn gobeithio hynny. Mae pawb sydd ag unrhyw brofiad o adeiladu’n gwybod mai’r arfer gyda phrosiectau o’r math yma yw cronni swm wrth gefn. Yn gyffredinol bydd cyngor proffesiynol yn nodi ffigur wrth gefn o 15 y cant. Mae arnom eisiau sicrhau rheolaeth ariannol lem dros y prosiect hwn, felly byddwn yn cymryd y cyngor proffesiynol hwnnw i ystyriaeth wrth bennu lefel y ddarpariaeth ariannol. Dim ond gyda chaniatâd penodol yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid y gelwir ar y swm wrth gefn. Bydd y pwyllgor Aelodau a grybwyllwyd yn gynharach, yn cynrychioli’r pedair plaid a’r Llywydd, yn monitro gwariant yn erbyn costau yn ofalus drwy gydol y broses. Yn fy mhrofiad i, mae’n rhaid bod yn ofalus ynghylch costau o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Ni thâl aros tan wedyn a gwneud pethau ar y diwedd. Mae tîm y prosiect yn deall hynny.
There are still many details to be resolved as the design develops, as with any major building project. As I have said, there is something unusual and exciting in being involved in a project where you see the development and can take part in it. Often, with a major public building, nobody knows about it until the finalised design is unveiled with a fanfare of trumpets. We have a chance to influence this design and ensure that it is right.
Mae llawer o fanylion yn dal i’w datrys wrth i’r dyluniad ddatblygu, fel gydag unrhyw brosiect adeiladu mawr. Fel y dywedais, mae rhywbeth anarferol a chyffrous mewn ymwneud â phrosiect lle gallwch weld y datblygiad a chymryd rhan ynddo. Yn aml, gydag adeilad cyhoeddus mawr, nid oes neb yn gwybod unrhywbeth amdano hyd nes caiff y cynllun terfynol ei ddadorchuddio gyda ffanffer o utgyrn. Mae gennym gyfle i ddylanwadu ar y cynllun hwn a sicrhau ei fod yn iawn.
The architects are keen on matters such as the design of the Chamber. They want a practical debate with those of us who have to work in it. We have already learnt lessons in this Chamber. For a temporary Chamber, it is not bad. It does the job. However, it does not create the positive and relaxed atmosphere for debate to which we all aspire. There are many models around the world; there is experience elsewhere. However, we have our experience to bring to bear, as we do with our experience in the Assembly Committees, to ensure that we get it right.
Mae’r penseiri’n frwd ynghylch materion fel cynllun y Siambr. Mae arnynt eisiau dadl ymarferol gyda’r rheini ohonom sydd yn gorfod gweithio ynddi. Yr ydym eisoes wedi dysgu gwersi yn y Siambr hon. Am Siambr dros-dro, nid yw’n ddrwg. Mae’n cyflawni’i phwrpas. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n creu’r amgylchedd cadarnhaol a braf ar gyfer dadl, sydd yn ddymuniad gennym oll. Mae llawer o fodelau o amgylch y byd; mae profiad ar gael mewn mannau eraill. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym ni’n profiad ein hunain i’w ystyried, fel gyda’n profiad ym Mhwyllgorau’r Cynulliad, i sicrhau ein bod yn ei wneud yn iawn.
Taking Members’ views into account, proposals will consider a wide range of environmental performance concerns—another issue that figured heavily in the discussions—and the use of indigenous materials. I must add the caveat that we must be consistent with procurement legislation. However, the hope is that indigenous materials will be used in the building. That is clearly set out as an aspiration for the project team and is spelt out in the resolution.
Gan roi ystyriaeth i farn Aelodau, bydd cynigion yn ystyried amrediad eang o gwestiynau perfformiad amgylcheddol—mater arall a gododd yn aml yn y trafodaethau—a’r defnydd o ddefnyddiau cynhenid. Rhaid imi ychwanegu’r amod fod yn rhaid inni fod yn gyson â deddfwriaeth brynu. Fodd bynnag, y gobaith yw defnyddio defnyddiau cynhenid yn yr adeilad. Amlinellir hynny’n glir fel dyhead i dîm y prosiect ac mae wedi’i ddatgan yn eglur yn y penderfyniad.
I commend the design to the Assembly with these revised cost estimates. I am confident that, apart from the obvious advantages of having a modern purpose-built building from which to operate and engage the people that we serve, there are many other benefits that will more than outweigh the initial capital costs. Those important benefits include the prestige that Wales as a nation will gain from this landmark building representing us on the world stage—the Sydney Opera House factor if you will. It is interesting when people talk about buildings. Everyone celebrates the success of St. David’s Hall. I was involved in the original decision and was a member of the procurement team right the way through the design, and I remember the opposition and grumbling about that project. Now, everybody looks at that building and what it symbolises with pride rather than doubt.
Cymeradwyaf y dyluniad i’r Cynulliad gyda’r amcangyfrifon cost diwygiedig hyn. Yr wyf yn hyderus fod sawl mantais arall, ar wahân i’r manteision amlwg o gael adeilad modern pwrpasol i weithio ynddo a rhoi lle i’r bobl a wasanaethwn, a fydd uwchlaw’r costau cyfalaf cychwynnol. Mae’r manteision hynny yn cynnwys y bri y bydd Cymru fel cenedl yn ei ennill o gael yr adeilad arbennig hwn i’n cynrychioli ar lwyfan y byd—ffactor Tŷ Opera Sydney os mynnwch. Diddorol yw clywed pobl yn siarad am adeiladau. Mae pawb yn dathlu llwyddiant Neuadd Dewi Sant. Yr oedd gennyf ran yn y penderfyniad gwreiddiol ac yr oeddwn yn aelod o’r tîm caffael yr holl ffordd drwy’r broses ddylunio, a chofiaf y gwrthwynebiad a’r grwgnach ynglŷn â’r prosiect hwnnw. Erbyn hyn, mae pawb yn edrych ar yr adeilad hwnnw a’r hyn y mae’n symbol ohono gyda balchder yn hytrach nag amheuaeth.
Another benefit is the message that the new building will send to the world of commerce and industry, in Wales and outside. That message is that Wales is forward-looking, visionary and keen to embrace the challenges that the new millennium offers. Those who have doubts should consider the positive impact on Welsh business and commerce. There is much support for this project from business in Wales. It will also help the continued encouragement of plans to regenerate Cardiff and the surrounding region.
Mantais arall yw’r neges y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn ei hanfon i’r byd diwydiant a masnach, yng Nghymru a’r tu hwnt. Y neges honno yw fod Cymru’n wlad flaengar, a chanddi weledigaeth ac awydd i gofleidio heriau’r mileniwm newydd. Dylai’r amheuwyr ystyried yr effaith gadarnhaol ar fusnesau a masnach Cymru. Mae llawer o gefnogaeth i’r prosiect hwn gan fyd busnes yng Nghymru. Bydd hefyd yn helpu’r anogaeth barhaus i gynlluniau i adfywio Caerdydd a’r cylch.
It is time to take a positive approach to this exciting development and we should set this above any party political considerations. It is a matter that involves and benefits the Assembly and the people of Wales. We must involve the public and capture their attention.
Mae’n bryd meithrin agwedd gadarnhaol at y datblygiad cyffrous hwn a dylem osod hyn uwchlaw unrhyw ystyriaethau gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol. Mae’n fater y bydd y Cynulliad a’r Cymry’n cael rhan ynddo ac yn elwa ohono. Rhaid inni gynnwys y cyhoedd a mynnu eu sylw.
I am pleased about the First Secretary’s perceived positive comments from the business community and other sectors in Wales. However, do you accept the general public’s negative comments and scepticism about spending £23 million on one building project when our health service is in such desperate need of resources?
Yr wyf yn falch fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gweld sylwadau cadarnhaol gan y gymuned fusnes a sectorau eraill yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn derbyn fod y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol yn cymryd agwedd negyddol a drwgdybus at wario £23 miliwn ar un adeilad tra bo’n gwasanaeth iechyd mewn angen mor ddybryd am adnoddau?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 43
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
I made the point a few moments ago that you need to get the balance right between investment in our public services and investment in things that drive the Welsh economy forward. We would not have a vibrant capital city in Wales had not the decision been taken to build St David’s Hall, for instance. Associated with that was the attempt to bring conferences and tourism to Cardiff. We persuaded Holiday Inn of Canada to build the first four star hotel in the city. If we had not pushed ahead with those matters, we would not have had all the other developments that followed. There would not have been any opportunity to promote the development of Cardiff Bay. It would have been difficult to promote tourism for the whole of Wales on the scale that I think is the ambition of everyone in this Chamber. The balance must be right.
Gwneuthum y pwynt ychydig funudau yn ôl fod angen sicrhau’r cydbwysedd iawn rhwng buddsoddiad yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a buddsoddiad mewn pethau sydd yn gyrru economi Cymru yn ei blaen. Ni fyddai gennym brifddinas fyw yng Nghymru oni bai am y penderfyniad i adeiladu Neuadd Dewi Sant er enghraifft. Yn gysylltiedig â hynny yr oedd yr ymgais i ddenu cynadleddau a thwristiaeth i Gaerdydd. Perswadiwyd cwmni Holiday Inn o Ganada i godi’r gwesty pedair seren cyntaf yn y ddinas. Pe na baem wedi gwthio’r materion hynny yn eu blaen, ni fyddem wedi cael yr holl ddatblygiadau eraill a’u dilynodd. Ni chawsid cyfle i hyrwyddo datblygiad Bae Caerdydd. Buasai’n anodd hyrwyddo twristiaeth i Gymru gyfan ar y raddfa sydd yn uchelgais gan bawb yn y Siambr hon, mi dybiaf. Rhaid i’r cydbwysedd fod yn iawn.
I talked about the Sydney harbour factor a few moments ago. Wales is a small country and we have to punch above our weight on a world stage. We must get this Chamber right so that it is the right place to conduct our democracy and offer leadership to Wales. We must also use it as an opportunity to lead and help drive forward the Welsh economy. These matters are closely related. In my days in local government in Cardiff, the Conservative Party and the Labour Party worked together on those projects. It is sad that the Conservative Party seems to have drifted away from that drive to promote the economy.
Soniais am ffactor harbwr Sydney ychydig funudau yn ôl. Gwlad fechan yw Cymru ac mae’n rhaid inni ddal ein pen i fyny ar lwyfan y byd. Rhaid inni gael y Siambr hon yn iawn fel mai dyma’r lle iawn i gynnal ein democratiaeth a chynnig arweiniad i Gymru. Rhaid inni ei defnyddio hefyd fel cyfle i arwain a helpu i yrru economi Cymru yn ei blaen. Mae perthynas agos rhwng y materion hyn. Yn fy nyddiau mewn llywodraeth leol yng Nghaerdydd, cydweithiodd y Blaid Geidwadol a’r Blaid Lafur ar y prosiectau hynny. Mae’n drist fod y Blaid Geidwadol fel petai wedi symud i ffwrdd yn raddol oddi wrth yr ymgyrch honno i hybu’r economi.
There are three ways in which I propose that we should involve the public and capture their attention. First, information is now available on the internet which will be regularly updated. That ties in with other matters we have discussed—involving young people through Young Voice/Llais Ifanc, consulting with the public more generally as with ‘A Better Wales’, and making ourselves more accessible through the use of information technology. Secondly, a public information road show, which the committee ruled last week should be presented in six locations covering the whole of Wales, and which the architects will attend. Thirdly, real-time development information should be provided through the internet when work starts on site so people can keep up to date with the way the building is progressing.
Cynigiaf y dylem gynnwys y cyhoedd a dal eu sylw mewn tair ffordd benodol. Yn gyntaf, mae gwybodaeth ar gael erbyn hyn ar y rhyngrwyd a gaiff ei diweddaru’n rheolaidd. Mae hynny’n gysylltiedig â materion eraill a drafodwyd gennym—rhoi rhan i bobl ifanc drwy Llais Ifanc/Young Voice, ymgynghori â’r cyhoedd yn fwy cyffredinol fel gyda ‘Gwell Cymru’, a sicrhau ein bod yn fwy hygyrch drwy ddefnyddio technoleg gwybodaeth. Yn ail, penderfynodd y pwyllgor yr wythnos diwethaf y dylai sioe deithiol gael ei chyflwyno mewn chwe lleoliad ledled Cymru i roi gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd, gyda’r penseiri yn bresennol ym mhob un. Yn drydydd, dylid darparu’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf un ar y datblygiad drwy’r rhyngrwyd pan fydd y gwaith wedi dechrau ar y safle fel y gall pobl gael gwybod sut y mae’r adeilad yn dod yn ei flaen.
It has been important to spend time revising the proposals to achieve a close fit between the design and the Assembly’s requirements. I confess that I was a little impatient at one or two stages regarding the time it was taking to get this right. However, given that the design has come out so positively, I am now quite confident that we were right to take that time and deal properly with issues such as access for disabled people rather than with a quick fix.
Bu’n bwysig treulio amser yn adolygu’r cynigion i sicrhau bod y dyluniad yn cyfateb yn agos i ofynion y Cynulliad. Cyfaddefaf y bûm braidd yn ddiamynedd ar un neu ddau achlysur ynghylch yr amser yr oedd yn ei gymryd i wneud hyn yn iawn. Fodd bynnag, gan fod y cynllun wedi datblygu mor gadarnhaol, yr wyf bellach yn berffaith hyderus ein bod yn iawn i gymryd yr amser hwnnw a delio’n iawn â materion fel mynediad i bobl anabl, yn hytrach na mynd am ateb cyflym, byrhoedlog.
Subject to your approval today, the detailed design and construction will commence quickly. We expect preliminary work to commence on site in August this year, with the main construction starting in November 2000. This should be completed in May 2002, with the building operational from August 2002. I hope that the whole Assembly will support the motion, so that we can make progress in delivering this excellent new building for the people of Wales.
Yn amodol ar eich cymeradwyaeth chi heddiw, bydd y gwaith dylunio manwl ac adeiladu yn dechrau’n fuan. Disgwyliwn i waith rhagarweiniol gychwyn ar y safle ym mis Awst eleni, gyda’r prif waith adeiladu’n dechrau ym mis Tachwedd 2000. Dylai gael ei gwblhau ym mis Mai 2002, fel bod yr adeilad yn weithredol o Awst 2002 ymlaen. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Cynulliad cyfan gefnogi’r cynnig, fel y gallwn gamu ymlaen i gyflwyno’r adeilad newydd gwych hwn i bobl Cymru.
I propose amendment 1. In the first clause, insert ‘notes’ in place of ‘welcomes’. Delete clauses 3, 4 and 5 and insert in their place
Cynigiaf welliant 1. Yn y cymal cyntaf, rhodder ‘nodi’r’ yn lle ‘croesawu’r’. Dileer cymalau 3, 4 a 5 a rhodder yn eu lle
It will come as no surprise to you, Llywydd, nor to any other Assembly Member, nor to the wider public, that the Welsh Conservative Party does not support the proposed new Assembly building. We believe that the large sum of money needed to finance this new building project, almost £23 million and rising, could be invested in other ways that would bring greater benefit to the people of Wales. During previous debates on this issue, the Welsh Conservative group has called for the investment to be made in a specific health care project. Today, I ask Assembly Members to ask themselves whether they would prefer to invest £23 million in a new Assembly building or in delivering health care to the people of Wales, whether in a specific project or simply in helping our health authorities cope with the increasing demands we put on them. I readily concede that when Nick Bourne asked me if I would lead for the Conservative group in this debate and when I was considering whether or not to table an amendment, I took some time to decide on my approach. On the one hand, the issue is straightforward in that we oppose, and always have opposed the project. However, if despite our opposition the project is to go ahead, we have views about the sort of building it should be, and I will refer to those views later. We also accept that as development work progresses there will come a time when the cost of abandoning the project will mean that our argument has been irretrievably lost. Significant sums have already been spent and are non-recoverable. Realistically, this debate is the Assembly’s last opportunity to abandon this project. I decided on my amendment after taking account of the intensity of opposition that permeates the Welsh Conservative Party and the scale of opposition that exists amongst the people of Wales.
Ni fydd yn syndod i chi, Llywydd, nac i unrhyw Aelod arall o’r Cynulliad, nac i’r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol, nad yw Plaid Geidwadol Cymru’n cefnogi’r adeilad Cynulliad newydd arfaethedig. Credwn y gallai’r swm mawr o arian sydd ei angen i dalu am y prosiect adeiladu hwn, sef bron i £23 miliwn ac yn dal i godi, gael ei fuddsoddi mewn ffyrdd eraill a fyddai’n rhoi mwy o fudd i bobl Cymru. Yn ystod dadleuon blaenorol ar y mater hwn, galwodd y grŵp Ceidwadol Cymreig am i’r buddsoddiad gael ei wneud mewn prosiect gofal iechyd penodol. Heddiw, gofynnaf i Aelodau’r Cynulliad holi eu hunain a fyddai’n well ganddynt fuddsoddi £23 miliwn mewn adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad neu mewn darparu gofal iechyd i bobl Cymru, boed hynny mewn prosiect penodol neu’n syml drwy helpu’n hawdurdodau iechyd i ymdopi â’r galwadau cynyddol sydd arnynt. Yr wyf yn barod i gyfaddef pan ofynnodd Nick Bourne imi a fyddwn yn arwain ar ran y grŵp Ceidwadol yn y ddadl hon a phan oeddwn yn ystyried a ddylwn gyflwyno gwelliant ai peidio, y cymerais beth amser i benderfynu sut i fynd o’i chwmpas hi. Ar y naill law, mae’r mater yn syml yn yr ystyr ein bod yn gwrthwynebu, ac wastad wedi gwrthwynebu’r prosiect. Fodd bynnag, os yw’r prosiect am fynd ymlaen er gwaethaf ein gwrthwynebiad, y mae gennym syniadau am y math o adeilad y dylai fod, a chyfeiriaf at y syniadau hynny yn y man. Derbyniwn hefyd y daw amser, wrth i’r gwaith datblygu fynd rhagddo, pan fydd cost rhoi’r gorau i’r prosiect yn golygu ein bod wedi colli’r ddadl yn ddi-droi’n-ôl. Eisoes gwariwyd symiau sylweddol ac ni ellir eu hadennill. Yn realistig, y ddadl hon yw cyfle olaf y Cynulliad i roi’r gorau i’r prosiect hwn. Penderfynais ar fy ngwelliant ar ôl ystyried cryfder y gwrthwynebiad sydd yn treiddio drwy’r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig a maint y gwrthwynebiad sydd yn bodoli ymhlith pobl Cymru.
The Conservative Party’s opposition on continuing with the new Assembly building must not be interpreted as a negative attitude towards the Assembly itself. That is an important point. A more accurate interpretation is our determination to make this Assembly a success. Concern about how it is perceived by the people of Wales underpins our position. I have heard it said that one of the great ironies of devolution to Wales, is the manner in which the Welsh Conservative Party is committed to making this Assembly a success. Sometimes, those words come from a surprising source.
Ni ddylid dehongli gwrthwynebiad y Blaid Geidwadol i barhau gydag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad fel agwedd negyddol tuag at y Cynulliad ei hun. Mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig. Dehongliad cywirach yw ein bod yn benderfynol o sicrhau bod y Cynulliad hwn yn llwyddo. Wrth wraidd ein safbwynt mae pryder ynghylch ei ddelwedd yn llygaid pobl Cymru. Clywais ddweud mai un o eironïau mawr datganoli i Gymru yw’r modd y mae’r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau llwyddiant y Cynulliad hwn. Weithiau, daw’r geiriau hynny o ffynhonnell annisgwyl.
Another irony is that if the Labour administration had been prepared to act more independently on Millbank, and had not treated this Assembly as the Cardiff branch of London Labour’s headquarters and if it had focused on satisfying the people of Wales that the Assembly benefit them, there would have been much less antipathy towards a new building project.
Eironi arall yw pe buasai’r weinyddiaeth Lafur wedi bod yn barod i weithredu’n fwy annibynnol ar Millbank, a heb drin y Cynulliad hwn fel cangen Caerdydd o bencadlys Llafur yn Llundain, a phetai wedi canolbwyntio ar fodloni pobl Cymru fod y Cynulliad o fudd iddynt hwy, buasai llawer llai o ddrwgdeimlad tuag at brosiect adeilad newydd.
We welcome the design changes that allow the disabled to enter the building through the front door like everyone else. We welcome design changes that facilitate easy engagement by the media and the public with our activities and we welcome a commitment to source Welsh materials wherever possible. However, like others, we are deeply concerned about cost.
Croesawn y newidiadau yn y cynllun i ganiatáu i’r anabl fynd i mewn i’r adeilad drwy’r drws ffrynt fel pawb arall. Croesawn newidiadau yn y cynllun sydd yn hwyluso’r ffordd i’r cyfryngau a’r cyhoedd gyfranogi’n rhwydd o’n gweithgareddau, a chroesawn ymrwymiad i ganfod defnyddiau Cymreig lle bynnag y bo modd. Fodd bynnag, fel eraill, yr ydym yn bryderus iawn am y gost.
The White Paper, ‘A Voice for Wales’, referred to a cost of £12 million to £17 million. Sometime last summer, the figure grew from £17 million to £20 million. The latest estimate is almost £23 million. I am not sure what the First Secretary meant in his statement by ‘a 15 per cent contingency’. We must consider that later. We can only guess at what the final figure will be.
Cyfeiriodd y Papur Gwyn ‘Llais dros Gymru’ at gost o £12 miliwn i £17 miliwn. Rywbryd yr haf diwethaf, tyfodd y ffigur o £17 miliwn i £20 miliwn. Mae’r amcangyfrif diweddaraf bron yn £23 miliwn. Nid wyf yn siŵr beth a olygai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd pan soniodd yn ei ddatganiad am ‘15 y cant wrth gefn’. Rhaid inni ystyried hynny’n ddiweddarach. Ni allwn ond dyfalu beth fydd y ffigur terfynol.
It is no surprise to read comments by a non-Conservative Assembly Member that we are now saddled by a new building, the costs of which are spiralling out of control. We can only wonder what a free vote would produce. I will ask the First Secretary one small question on cost. We are told that a few extra yards were needed in addition to site 1E to accommodate the new project. That site was leased to the Assembly to a great deal of fanfare, for a peppercorn cost of £1. We were told that the extra yards had also been leased at a peppercorn cost. Therefore, what is the peppercorn cost of the extra yards, and when was it agreed? Was it just £1 or was it more? I would be pleased if it was only £1.
Nid yw’n syndod darllen sylwadau gan Aelod o’r Cynulliad nad yw’n Geidwadwr ein bod bellach yn gorfod derbyn adeilad newydd sydd a’i gostau’n chwyddo y tu hwnt i reolaeth. Ni allwn ond dyfalu beth fyddai canlyniad pleidlais rydd. Gofynnaf un cwestiwn bach i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y gost. Dywedir wrthym y bu angen ychydig o lathenni ychwanegol at safle 1E i wneud lle i’r prosiect newydd. Cafodd y safle hwnnw ei brydlesu i’r Cynulliad yn sŵn utgyrn mawr, am bris rhad o £1. Dywedwyd wrthym fod y llathenni ychwanegol hefyd wedi’u prydlesu am bris rhad. Felly, beth yw cost rad y llathenni ychwanegol, a pha bryd y’i cytunwyd? Ai dim ond £1 ydoedd, neu a oedd yn fwy? Byddwn yn falch petai ddim ond yn £1.
To address the heart of my amendment. Let us consider some of the concerns expressed by Assembly Members over recent weeks. We have all been concerned about the difficulties facing the NHS: cancelled operations, rising waiting lists. We have all been concerned about farmers facing ruin and driven to suicide, young farmers in particular. Thousands of elderly and vulnerable people throughout Wales are wondering how they will pay the huge increases in this year’s council tax. What does the Assembly do? It decides to spend almost £23 million on a new building project that almost nobody in Wales wants. What do you think the people of Wales will think of us? What do you think it will do for the standing of the people of Wales?
I fynd at galon fy ngwelliant. Ystyriwn rai o’r pryderon a fynegwyd gan Aelodau Cynulliad yn yr wythnosau diweddar. Yr ydym i gyd wedi pryderu am yr anawsterau sydd yn wynebu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol: canslo llawdriniaethau, rhestrau aros yn codi. Yr ydym i gyd wedi pryderu am ffermwyr yn wynebu difodiant ac yn troi at hunanladdiad, ffermwyr ifanc yn enwedig. Mae miloedd o bobl oedrannus a bregus ledled Cymru yn methu gwybod sut y maent am dalu’r codiadau enfawr yn y dreth gyngor eleni. Beth mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud? Mae’n penderfynu gwario bron £23 miliwn ar brosiect adeilad newydd nad oes ar bron neb yng Nghymru ei eisiau. Beth dybiwch chi y bydd pobl Cymru yn ei feddwl ohonom? Beth dybiwch chi a wnaiff hyn dros sefyllfa pobl Cymru?
I do not condemn those Members who disagree with me and who are in favour of what they consider a landmark project. I am willing to accept that they genuinely believe that our new democracy justifies a grand new building and that almost £23 million is an acceptable amount of money to spend on enhancing our democratic process. I do not condemn them or their views, but the Welsh Conservative Party disagrees with them.
Nid wyf yn condemnio’r Aelodau hynny sydd yn anghytuno â mi ac sydd o blaid prosiect sydd, yn eu barn hwy, yn garreg filltir. Yr wyf yn fodlon derbyn eu bod yn gwirioneddol gredu fod ein democratiaeth newydd yn teilyngu adeilad newydd crand a bod bron £23 miliwn yn swm derbyniol o arian i’w wario ar gyfoethogi ein proses ddemocrataidd. Nid wyf yn eu condemnio hwy na’u barn, ond mae’r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig yn anghytuno â hwy.
I propose amendment 2. At the end of the motion add:
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwaneger ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Michael German (continued) spoken in English p. 47
Michael German (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
I am moved to respond to Glyn Davies in some way, because, in a sense, if we were starting on this journey now, we would not have chosen to start from here. Many of us would have chosen to start elsewhere and would have been located elsewhere. However, we are here and we must face the reality that we must stay here. The costs to move elsewhere are too high. The Welsh Conservative Party may wish to wake up to the fact that we are in Cardiff Bay and cannot move.
Teimlaf reidrwydd i ymateb i Glyn Davies mewn rhyw fodd, oherwydd, mewn un ystyr, pe baem yn cychwyn ar y daith hon yn awr, ni fyddem wedi dewis cychwyn o’r fan hon. Byddai llawer ohonom wedi dewis cychwyn o rywle arall a buasem wedi’n lleoli yn rhywle arall. Fodd bynnag, yma yr ydym ni a rhaid inni wynebu’r realiti mai yma y bydd yn rhaid inni aros. Mae’r costau o symud i rywle arall yn rhy uchel. Efallai yr hoffai’r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig ddeffro i’r ffaith ein bod ym Mae Caerdydd ac na allwn symud.
New buildings are not popular. No one would expect them to be. When new buildings are in the planning stage they are even less popular than when they are being built. I ask you all to reflect on public feeling towards the national millennium stadium in Cardiff. It received enormous criticism from the public all the way through—some of which was probably justified—yet you would not find many people in Wales criticising it now, especially as it will be the venue for the Welsh team to win the six nations championship. If we want a symbol for our country and a flagship building that will make a statement about Wales, we must make a statement that is better than this building. Many people just drive past the building and do not even know where it is. This week I had to direct somebody who wanted to know whether it was near Eversheds solicitors’ office.
Nid yw adeiladau newydd yn boblogaidd. Ni fyddai neb yn disgwyl iddynt fod. Pan fydd adeiladau newydd yn y cyfnod cynllunio maent hyd yn oed yn llai poblogaidd na thra byddant yn cael eu hadeiladu. Gofynnaf ichi i gyd feddwl yn ôl am deimlad y cyhoedd at stadiwm genedlaethol y mileniwm yng Nghaerdydd. Daeth dan feirniadaeth lem gan y cyhoedd drwy gydol y broses—peth ohoni â chyfiawnhad, mae’n siŵr—ond ni welwch lawer o bobl yng Nghymru yn ei beirniadu erbyn hyn, yn enwedig gan mai dyma lle y bydd tîm Cymru’n ennill pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad. Os oes arnom eisiau symbol i’n gwlad ac adeilad arloesol a fydd yn dweud rhywbeth am Gymru, rhaid inni ddweud rhywbeth sydd yn well na’r hyn a ddywed yr adeilad hwn. Bydd llawer o bobl yn gyrru heibio i’r adeilad heb wybod hyd yn oed ym mhle y mae. Yr wythnos hon bu raid imi roi cyfarwyddiadau i rywun a oedd eisiau gwybod a ydoedd yn agos at swyddfa cyfreithwyr Eversheds.
I must also mention the pressures on space in this building, which obviously the Welsh Conservative Party and Glyn Davies have forgotten. Glyn Davies tried to get into a Liberal Democrat group meeting the other day, simply because they were short of space for a Conservative group meeting. There is enormous pressure on space in this building. You cannot find space for meetings.
Rhaid imi grybwyll hefyd y pwysau ar le yn yr adeilad hwn, sydd wedi mynd yn angof gan y Blaid Geidwadol a Glyn Davies, mae’n amlwg. Ceisiodd Glyn Davies fynd i mewn i gyfarfod grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y diwrnod o’r blaen, am y rheswm syml eu bod yn brin o le ar gyfer cyfarfod o’r grŵp Ceidwadol. Mae pwysau aruthrol ar le yn yr adeilad hwn. Ni ellir cael lle i gynnal cyfarfodydd.
We all know about Helen Mary and her pillar. If you want a dignified Chamber, then it must be better than an old computer room. The problem with this Chamber is that unless you stand in the front, you do not address anybody except the Presiding Officer. I know that he is interested in listening to every single word, but the audience that is being addressed is the other side of you. If you turn around to face the audience, the audio recording system cannot pick up your voice and you are lost to the world and to the official record.
Gwyddom i gyd am Helen Mary a’i philer. Os oes arnoch eisiau Siambr urddasol, rhaid iddi fod yn well na hen ystafell gyfrifiaduron. Y broblem gyda’r Siambr hon yw os na sefwch yn y tu blaen, nid ydych yn annerch neb heblaw’r Llywydd. Gwn fod ganddo ef ddiddordeb mewn gwrando ar bob un gair, ond mae’r gynulleidfa yr ydych yn ei chyfarch y tu ôl i chi. Os trowch i wynebu’r gynulleidfa, ni all y system gofnodi sain godi’ch llais a chewch eich colli i’r byd ac i’r cofnod swyddogol.
However, there are problems in the design of the new building that need to be overcome. I refer to two of them. I share the concerns, expressed by many, about glass buildings and walls. If you have seen the Chep Lap Kok scheme in Hong Kong, the largest airport scheme in the world, you will know that the glass walls there are suffering. Luton Airport suffers the same problem. I want absolute assurance that the glass procedures that we intend to put in this new building will be substantial and withstand the risk of damage.
Fodd bynnag, y mae problemau yng nghynllun yr adeilad newydd y mae angen eu datrys. Cyfeiriaf at ddwy ohonynt. Yr wyf yn rhannu’r pryder, a fynegwyd gan lawer, am adeiladau a waliau gwydr. Os gwelsoch gynllun Chep Lap Kok yn Hong Kong, y cynllun maes awyr mwyaf yn y byd, gwyddoch fod y waliau gwydr yn y fan honno’n dioddef. Mae Maes Awyr Luton yn dioddef yr un broblem. Mae arnaf eisiau sicrwydd absoliwt y bydd y trefniadau gwydr y bwriadwn eu gosod yn yr adeilad newydd hwn yn sylweddol ac yn gwrthsefyll perygl difrod.
I also want to mention flat roofs. The ancient Greeks had a theory that flat roofs leak and we still have not learnt that lesson. I want to be sure that there will be no leakage from the roof structure.
Hoffwn sôn hefyd am doeau gwastad. Yr oedd gan yr hen Roegiaid ddamcaniaeth fod toeau gwastad yn gollwng ac nid ydym hyd heddiw wedi dysgu’r wers honno. Hoffwn gael sicrwydd na fydd unrhyw ddŵr yn gollwng i mewn drwy’r to.
On the glass roof, I have still not received answers to my questions on the seagull population of Cardiff Bay and the three window cleaners that are employed around the clock to clean the glass building of St David’s Hotel and Spa. I wonder if he will broach that subject as well?
Ynglŷn â’r to gwydr, yr wyf yn dal heb gael atebion i’m cwestiynau ynghylch poblogaeth wylanod Bae Caerdydd a’r tri glanhawr ffenestri a gyflogir ddydd a nos i lanhau adeilad gwydr Gwesty a Sba Dewi Sant. Tybed a wnaiff roi sylw i’r pwnc hwnnw hefyd?
It may have escaped your notice, but the roof will not be glass. It will be made of another property, which will be skinned with, we hope, Welsh timbers. My point is that it is flat. Of course, the cleaning of the building is an issue. I am sure that David will spend many hours dealing with that and I hope that we can find him a potted plant to commemorate the project. The Greeks learnt the lesson about flat roofs, but we have not.
Efallai nad ydych wedi sylwi, ond nid gwydr fydd defnydd y to. Bydd wedi’i wneud o sylwedd arall, gyda phren Cymreig yn ei gynnal, gobeithiwn. Fy mhwynt i yw ei fod yn wastad. Wrth gwrs, mae glanhau’r adeilad yn fater trafod. Yr wyf yn siŵr y treulia David oriau lawer yn delio â hynny a gobeithiaf y gallwn ddod o hyd i blanhigyn mewn pot iddo i goffau’r prosiect. Dysgodd y Groegwyr y wers am doeau gwastad, ond nid ydym ni wedi’i dysgu.
However, my amendment today concerns transparency of funding. It is essential that what we say is what we mean. If this is a project in which we believe, and in which we expect the people of Wales to believe, we must ensure that our figures are accurate. I am afraid that there are elements in what we are considering that do not follow this through. Many of you would be forgiven for thinking that the figure for the new building was £12.5 million. It does not pay to disguise your eventual financial commitments because they have a habit of catching up with you in the end.
Fodd bynnag, y mae a wnelo fy ngwelliant heddiw â thryloywder ariannu. Mae’n rhaid inni ddweud yr hyn yr ydym yn ei feddwl. Os yw hwn yn brosiect yr ydym yn credu ynddo, ac yr ydym yn disgwyl i bobl Cymru gredu ynddo, rhaid inni sicrhau bod ein ffigurau’n gywir. Mae arnaf ofn fod elfennau yn yr hyn sydd dan sylw gennym nad ydynt yn cyflawni hyn. Gellid maddau i lawer ohonoch am feddwl mai £12.5 miliwn oedd y ffigur ar gyfer yr adeilad newydd. Nid yw’n talu cuddio’ch ymrwymiadau gwario terfynol gan eu bod yn tueddu i’ch goddiweddyd yn y pen draw.
The figures that we were given on 19 January suggested that the actual original figure was not £12.5 million, but was just under £14 million. That is when you include the corrections to the estimate that were left out and reported, apparently, in March 1999. I would not mind about that if we had been given those figures, but until last Christmas we were still circulating information stating that the estimated cost of the building was £12.5 million when we knew that there were such items as lanterns, cowls, structural fins and generators whose cost had been underestimated or omitted from the Richard Rogers Partnership’s original estimate. Those costs were known in March and were obviously additional to the £12.5 million. We should have included those figures all along and should not have continued to quote £12.5 million. We are now told that the estimate should have been £20.45 million, with everything taken into account. We should have had that figure from the beginning.
Yr oedd y ffigurau a gawsom ar 19 Ionawr yn awgrymu nad £12.5 miliwn oedd y ffigur gwreiddiol mewn gwirionedd, ond ychydig dan £14 miliwn. Mae hynny ar ôl i chi gynnwys y cywiriadau i’r amcangyfrif a hepgorwyd ac a adroddwyd, mae’n debyg, ym mis Mawrth 1999. Ni fyddai hynny’n poeni dim arnaf petai’r ffigurau hynny wedi’u rhoi inni, ond tan y Nadolig diwethaf yr oeddem yn dal i ledaenu gwybodaeth yn dweud mai £12.5 miliwn oedd amcangyfrif cost yr adeilad a ninnau’n gwybod fod eitemau megis llusernau, cyflau, esgyll adeileddol a generaduron yr oedd eu cost wedi’i than-amcangyfrif neu heb ei chynnwys yn amcangyfrif gwreiddiol Partneriaeth Richard Rogers. Yr oedd y costau hynny’n hysbys ym mis Mawrth ac yn amlwg yr oeddent yn ychwanegol at y £12.5 miliwn. Dylem fod wedi cynnwys y ffigurau hynny ar hyd y ffordd yn hytrach na dal i ddyfynnu £12.5 miliwn. Dywedir wrthym yn awr y dylsai’r amcangyfrif fod yn £20.45 miliwn, o gymryd popeth i ystyriaeth. Dylsem fod wedi cael y ffigur hwnnw o’r dechrau.
Dafydd Wigley’s question earlier is valid. We are told that there will be a £1.6 million addition to the cost. The major additions that I can see are to provide disabled access. Is that £1.6 million additional cost really attributable to the provision of disabled access? If not, to what else is it attributable? If it is attributable to design changes and we are satisfied that they provide value for money, I am sure that the Assembly would welcome that.
Yr oedd cwestiwn Dafydd Wigley yn gynharach yn un dilys. Dywedir wrthym y bydd ychwanegiad o £1.6 miliwn at y gost. Y prif ychwanegiadau a welaf yw’r rhai i ddarparu mynediad i’r anabl. A yw’r £1.6 miliwn hwnnw o gost ychwanegol yn wir i’w briodoli i ddarparu mynediad i’r anabl? Os na, i beth arall y mae i’w briodoli? Os ydyw i’w briodoli i newidiadau yn y cynllun, a’n bod yn fodlon eu bod yn rhoi gwerth am arian, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Cynulliad yn croesawu hynny.
In conclusion, we have been told that the financial provision stands up because the figures can be moved around. However, those figures are not the same as the headline figure that we have given to the people of Wales, and I regret that. We have to be clear and honest. More than that, we must be honest with ourselves. If we want a flagship project for Wales, we must stand up and speak about it rather than complain about the building and then move into it to sit comfortably behind potted plants.
I gloi, dywedwyd wrthym fod y ddarpariaeth ariannol yn sefyll ar ei thraed oherwydd y gellir symud y ffigurau o gwmpas. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r ffigurau hynny yr un peth â’r ffigur pennawd yr ydym wedi’i roi i bobl Cymru, ac yr wyf yn gresynu at hynny. Rhaid inni fod yn glir ac yn onest. Yn fwy na hynny, rhaid inni fod yn onest gyda ni’n hunain. Os ydym eisiau prosiect blaengar i Gymru, rhaid inni sefyll a siarad amdano yn hytrach na chwyno am yr adeilad ac wedyn symud i mewn iddo i eistedd yn gysurus y tu ôl i blanhigion mewn potiau.
I propose amendment 3. Add to the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwaneger at ddiwedd y cynnig:
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 50
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate although I am not an architectural expert. I imagine that my group has asked me to speak because I am probably the person who has complained most about the current Chamber. It certainly is good to be here at the lectern out from behind that pillar. Some of my colleagues may feel that I am blessed in being placed behind it, as I cannot see any Liberal Democrats or Conservative Members, but it does make it hard to engage in debate.
Croesawaf y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl er nad wyf yn arbenigwr pensaernïol. Dychmygaf fod fy ngrŵp wedi gofyn i mi siarad am mai fi, mae’n debyg, yw’r person sydd wedi achwyn fwyaf am y Siambr bresennol. Yn sicr, mae’n dda bod yma wrth y ddarllenfa ac allan o’r tu ôl i’r piler acw. Efallai fod rhai o’m cyd-Aelodau’n teimlo imi gael bendith o fod y tu ôl iddo, gan na allaf weld neb o Aelodau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol na’r Ceidwadwyr, ond y mae’n ei gwneud yn anodd cymryd rhan mewn dadl.
Assembly Members rose—
Aelodau Cynulliad yn codi—
I will take an intervention, but one at a time. I am not alone in facing the pillar problem. Huw Lewis has the same difficulty, but has not complained about it as much. That may be because Huw is a more tolerant and patient human being than I or, on the other hand, it may be that he gets less hassle from his constituents than I do for allegedly not being in the Chamber when I am.
Cymeraf ymyriad, ond un ar y tro. Nid fi yw’r unig un sydd yn wynebu problem â philer. Mae Huw Lewis yn cael yr un anhawster, ond nid yw wedi cwyno cymaint amdano. Efallai fod hynny am fod Huw’n unigolyn mwy goddefgar ac amyneddgar na mi neu, ar y llaw arall, efallai ei fod yn cael llai o drafferth gan ei etholwyr nag a gaf i am beidio â bod yn y Siambr, yn ôl pob tebyg, pan oeddwn yno.
As Mike German has outlined, this Chamber poses serious difficulties in terms of engaging in debate and, particularly, in inclusive debate. Much more serious is the problem of public access to our debates in the Chamber and, particularly, Committee rooms. We welcome the aspects of the design that will deal with that.
Fel yr amlinellodd Mike German, mae’r Siambr hon yn achosi anawsterau difrifol yn nhermau cynnal dadl, ac yn enwedig dadl gynhwysol. Llawer mwy difrifol yw problem mynediad i’r cyhoedd i’n dadleuon yn y Siambr ac, yn arbennig, yn yr ystafelloedd Pwyllgor. Croesawn yr agweddau ar y cynllun a fydd yn delio â hynny.
We also welcome the changes that have been made to the building design with regard to disabled access, though we must regret that we got it so badly wrong initially. Disabled groups have told us and the Government that they are pleased with the changes to the external access, especially the getting rid of those monolithic steps. The symbolic importance, as well as the practical importance of that should be stressed and so too should the importance of placing all public areas on one level to ensure easy access. However, on this issue, the devil is in the detail. I seek assurances today that, for example, full wheelchair access will be available to areas other than the public ones. We must take into account the need of future possible disabled Members and members of staff. We must not only consider people with mobility impairment. We must consider deaf people, people with visual impairment and so forth.
Croesawn hefyd y newidiadau a wnaethpwyd i gynllun yr adeilad o safbwynt mynediad i’r anabl, er fod yn rhaid gresynu inni wneud cymaint o gawl i ddechrau. Dywedodd grwpiau’r anabl wrthym ni ac wrth y Llywodraeth eu bod yn hapus gyda’r newidiadau i’r fynedfa allanol, yn enwedig fod y grisiau monolithig hynny wedi mynd. Dylid pwysleisio pwysigrwydd symbolaidd hynny, yn ogystal â’i bwysigrwydd ymarferol, ynghyd â phwysigrwydd gosod yr holl fannau cyhoeddus ar un lefel i sicrhau mynediad rhwydd. Fodd bynnag, ar y cwestiwn hwn, yn y manylder y mae’r diafol. Gofynnaf am sicrwydd heddiw y bydd mynediad llawn i gadeiriau olwyn ar gael, er enghraifft, i fannau ar wahân i’r mannau cyhoeddus. Rhaid inni gymryd i ystyriaeth anghenion staff ac Aelodau’r dyfodol a allai fod yn anabl. Rhaid inni ystyried pobl ag anableddau ar wahân i anabledd symud. Rhaid inni ystyried pobl fyddar, pobl â nam ar y golwg ac ati.
It is vital that we learn from the mistakes that we have already made, particularly the mistakes that were made in the national stadium. Disabled groups made recommendations at an early stage. Those recommendations were ignored and mistakes were made which were costly to rectify at a later stage. In that context, I welcome the First Secretary’s categorical assurance that disabled groups will be consulted throughout the process. I ask him and the Cabinet to add to that assurance that disabled people will not only be consulted but that their opinions will be acted upon.
Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn dysgu oddi wrth y camgymeriadau a wnaethom yn barod, yn enwedig y camgymeriadau a wnaethpwyd yn y stadiwm genedlaethol. Gwnaeth grwpiau anabl argymhellion yn gynnar yn y dydd. Anwybyddwyd yr argymhellion hynny a gwnaethpwyd camgymeriadau a oedd yn gostus i’w cywiro yn ddiweddarach. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, croesawaf sicrwydd diamwys y Prif Ysgrifennydd yr ymgynghorir â grwpiau anabl drwy gydol y broses. Gofynnaf iddo ef a’r Cabinet ychwanegu at y sicrwydd hwnnw yr ymgynghorir nid yn unig â phobl anabl ond y gweithredir ar eu sylwadau.
Turning to amendment 3, this new building provides us with an opportunity to set an example, by insisting on the highest environmental standards in terms of materials and future energy use. I have personal concerns in this context about the amount of glass that will be used. Colleagues would expect this, given what I think about glass ceilings in other contexts. I am particularly concerned, however, about the durability problems. I do not wish to open a technical discussion in this Chamber. I would dread that and be absolutely terrified. However, I seek the Government’s assurance that in supporting our amendment, environmental considerations will be central to the future development of the building and contracts will reflect the need to ensure that the glass that we use is safe and durable. Contractors should face penalty clauses if we face problems later on.
A throi at welliant 3, mae’r adeilad newydd hwn yn rhoi cyfle inni osod esiampl, drwy fynnu’r safonau amgylcheddol uchaf yn nhermau defnyddiau a defnydd ynni i’r dyfodol. Mae gennyf bryderon personol yn y cyd-destun hwn ynghylch yr holl wydr a ddefnyddir. Bydd hyn yn ddisgwyliadwy i’m cyd-Aelodau, o gofio fy marn am nenfydau gwydr mewn cyd-destunau eraill. Yr wyf yn arbennig o bryderus, fodd bynnag, am y problemau hirhoedledd. Nid oes arnaf eisiau agor trafodaeth dechnegol yn y Siambr hon. Byddai hynny’n peri braw ac ofn mawr imi. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf am sicrwydd y Llywodraeth y bydd cefnogi’n gwelliant ni yn golygu y bydd ystyriaethau amgylcheddol yn ganolog i ddatblygiad yr adeilad yn y dyfodol ac y bydd contractau’n adlewyrchu’r angen i sicrhau bod y gwydr a ddefnyddiwn yn ddiogel ac yn barhaol. Dylai contractwyr wynebu cymalau cosb os wynebwn broblemau’n ddiweddarach.
This is an opportunity for us to comply with our responsibilities—set in the Government of Wales Act 1998—towards sustainable development. I trust also that we will bear in mind the local environmental conditions, particularly in relation to the outside design of the building. I am thinking in particular of how exposed and windy the site is. This could cause problems for elderly visitors, disabled visitors and families with children.
Dyma gyfle inni gydymffurfio â’n cyfrifoldebau—a nodwyd yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998—tuag at ddatblygiad cynaliadwy. Hyderaf hefyd y cadwn yr amodau amgylcheddol lleol mewn golwg, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â chynllun allanol yr adeilad. Yr wyf yn meddwl yn arbennig am ba mor agored a gwyntog yw’r safle. Gallai hyn beri problemau i ymwelwyr oedrannus, rhai anabl a theuluoedd gyda phlant.
The rise in the estimated cost is a real concern. However, it is pretty rich for the Conservatives in Wales to oppose the building of a decent home for our Assembly when their colleagues in Westminster have wholeheartedly supported the spending of £380 million pounds over the last five years in upgrading the House of Commons. That includes, £25,000 for upgrading the smoking room. I do not wish to mark you with what your colleagues do on the other side of Offa’s Dyke, but it should be considered in the context of your remarks—
Mae’r cynnydd yn y gost ddisgwyliedig yn wir bryder. Fodd bynnag, mae gan y Ceidwadwyr yng Nghymru dipyn o wyneb i wrthwynebu cartref teilwng i’n Cynulliad pan fo’u cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan wedi rhoi cefnogaeth wresog i wario £380 miliwn dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf ar uwchraddio Tŷ’r Cyffredin. Mae hynny’n cynnwys £25,000 ar uwchraddio’r ystafell ysmygu. Nid oes arnaf eisiau eich pardduo gyda’r hyn y mae eich cyd-Aelodau’n ei wneud y tu hwnt i Glawdd Offa, ond dylid ei ystyried yng nghyd-destun eich sylwadau—
This is not allowed, Presiding Officer. This is not Westminster.
Ni chaniateir hyn, Llywydd. Nid San Steffan yw hwn.
Is that an intervention Glyn, or are you just chatting?
Ai ymyriad yw hyn, Glyn, ynteu ai dim ond sgwrsio yr ydych chi?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
Order. Despite the fact that Helen Mary Jones has invited interventions and speeches, I would be grateful if they were made through the Presiding Officer.
Trefn. Er gwaethaf y ffaith fod Helen Mary Jones wedi gwahodd ymyriadau ac anerchiadau, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe caent eu gwneud drwy’r Llywydd.
Helen Mary Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 53
Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 53
Thank you. It would certainly make my life easier. We seek assurance from the Government today—while fully taking into account the points that have been made about commercial confidentiality—that, when the contracts are let, the expected costs and timescales will be tightly specified. The contracts should include strong penalty clauses if those costs are exceeded or if the timescales are allowed to slip.
yn Saesneg Diolch. Yn sicr byddai hynny’n gwneud fy mywyd i’n haws. Ceisiwn sicrwydd gan y Llywodraeth heddiw—tra’n rhoi ystyriaeth lawn i’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd ynglŷn â chyfrinachedd masnachol—y bydd y costau a’r amserlenni disgwyliedig, pan roddir y contractau, wedi’u pennu’n fanwl. Dylai’r contractau gynnwys cymalau cosbi cryf os eir dros y costau hynny neu os caniateir i’r amserlenni lithro.
We seek assurance that the Assembly, in letting the contract, will only use companies that have fair employment policies and will seek, where possible, to use companies that will provide job opportunities for local people. I raise this to ensure that we as an Assembly meet our statutory equality obligations and, more seriously, because I understand that one company with which we may be negotiating is currently facing a serious race discrimination case. We would not want to be involved with a company of that nature if it was found guilty and we would not want to be responsible for that kind of conduct towards employees.
yn Saesneg Ceisiwn sicrwydd y bydd y Cynulliad, wrth osod y contract, yn defnyddio dim ond cwmnïau sydd â pholisïau cyflogi teg ac y bydd yn ceisio, hyd y bo modd, ddefnyddio cwmnïau a fydd yn darparu cyfleoedd gwaith i bobl leol. Codaf hyn er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni fel Cynulliad yn cwrdd â’n cyfrifoldebau cydraddoldeb statudol ac, yn fwy difrifol, am fy mod yn deall fod un cwmni y gallem fod yn trafod ag ef yn wynebu achos difrifol o wahaniaethu hiliol ar hyn o bryd. Ni fyddem eisiau bod yn gysylltiedig â chwmni o’r natur hwnnw pe ceid hwy’n euog ac ni fyddem eisiau bod yn gyfrifol am y math hwnnw o ymddygiad tuag at weithwyr cyflogedig.
In the context of the above, we invite the Cabinet to assure us—and I welcome what Alun Michael has already said—that the whole Assembly will receive regular reports about the building’s progress.
yn Saesneg Yng nghyd-destun yr uchod, gwahoddwn y Cabinet i roi sicrwydd inni—a chroesawaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun Michael eisoes—y bydd y Cynulliad cyfan yn cael adroddiadau rheolaidd am hynt y gwaith ar yr adeilad.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu’r adeilad newydd. Rhaid inni gael cartref ymarferol, addas ac urddasol i’n Cynulliad. Rhaid i’r cyhoedd gael mynediad llawn er mwyn gweld a chlywed y trafodaethau. Nid yw hynny ar gael ar hyn o bryd. Nid wyf innau, rhaid imi gyfaddef, eisiau treulio’r pedair blynedd nesaf yn cuddio y tu ôl i’r piler. Fodd bynnag, mae materion pwysicach na hynny. Yn bennaf oll, rhaid inni gael adeilad a all fod yn symbol o’n cenedlaetholdeb, adeilad y gall pobl Cymru ymfalchïo ynddo, yn 2002, ymhen 20 mlynedd ac ymhen 100 mlynedd.
in Welsh Plaid Cymru welcomes the new building. We must have a practical, suitable and dignified home for our Assembly. The public must have full access to see and hear the deliberations. That is not available at present. I must admit that I do not wish to spend the next four years hiding behind the pillar. However, there are more important issues than that. Most of all, we must have a building that can be a symbol of our nationhood, a building of which the people of Wales can be proud, in 2002, in 20 years’ time and in 100 years’ time.
It was interesting to hear Mike German speak with a passion on this subject for which the Liberal Democrats are not renowned.
Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed Mike German yn siarad gydag angerdd ar y pwnc hwn, mewn modd nad yw’n nodweddiadol o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.
We have to face people throughout Wales. It is not only the Welsh Conservatives who wish to consider the cost of this new building. If we say that £20 million is fine, that £23 million is fine, where does it stop? Is £30 million fine? We hear that figure bandied about. At what stage do we say that this money is better spent on the health service, on farmers, on minimising the council tax increases that are bearing down so heavily on people throughout Wales?
Rhaid inni wynebu pobl ledled Cymru. Nid y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn unig sydd am ystyried cost yr adeilad newydd hwn. Os dywedwn fod £20 miliwn yn iawn, bod £23 miliwn yn iawn, ym mhle y tynnwn y llinell? Ydi £30 miliwn yn iawn? Clywir sôn am y ffigur hwnnw. Pryd y dywedwn mai arian yw hwn y byddai’n well ei wario ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, ar ffermwyr, ar leihau’r codiadau treth gyngor sydd yn pwyso mor drwm ar bobl drwy Gymru benbaladr?
This is not about the institution. Let us not sell ourselves short. Somebody criticised the quality of debate here. We have had good debates, and when we have had a good topic, we have had extremely decent debates—that is due more to the topics than the nature of this Chamber. Committees work well here. The only room in this building that is criticised—with some justification—is this Chamber. As Assembly Members, should we not be discussing earning ourselves a new Chamber? Let us have some successes here for the people of Wales and revisit this decision. We only have a limited pot of money—the Barnett block—to spend on Wales. The new building must be paid for from somewhere else and it is now exceeding the amount that we were told was the ceiling in ‘A Voice for Wales’.
Nid y sefydliad sydd dan sylw yma. Peidiwn â thanbrisio’n hunain. Beirniadodd rhywun ansawdd y dadlau yma. Yr ydym wedi cael dadleuon da, a phan fu pwnc da gennym, cawsom ddadleuon eithriadol o ddifyr—mae a wnelo hynny fwy â’r testunau nag â natur y Siambr hon. Mae Pwyllgorau’n gweithio’n dda yma. Y Siambr yw’r unig ystafell yn yr adeilad hwn a gaiff ei beirniadu—a hynny gyda chryn gyfiawnhad. Fel Aelodau Cynulliad, oni ddylem fod yn trafod teilyngu Siambr newydd inni’n hunain? Gadewch inni gael ambell lwyddiant yma er mwyn pobl Cymru a dychwelyd at y penderfyniad hwn. Dim ond hyn a hyn o arian sydd gennym—bloc Barnett—i’w wario ar Gymru. Rhaid talu am yr adeilad hwn o rywle arall ac erbyn hyn mae’r gost yn uwch na’r swm a ddisgrifiwyd fel nenfwd yn ‘Llais dros Gymru’.
The figure is creeping upwards. It is extraordinary that it is said that this is in order to ensure proper disabled access. Does that mean that that original figure was put forward on the basis that there would not be proper disabled access? There must be proper access for everybody on an equal footing. I feel strongly that we must look the people of Wales in the eye and tell them that we have earned this new building, this new symbol for Wales. In the meantime, we are able to operate here effectively and efficiently.
Mae’r ffigur yn cropian tuag i fyny. Mae’n anhygoel y dywedir mai er mwyn sicrhau mynediad priodol i’r anabl y mae hyn. A yw hynny’n golygu y cynigiwyd y ffigur gwreiddiol ar y sail na fyddai mynediad priodol i’r anabl? Rhaid i bawb gael mynediad priodol ar sail gyfartal. Teimlaf yn gryf fod yn rhaid inni edrych i fyw llygaid pobl Cymru a dweud wrthynt ein bod wedi haeddu’r adeilad newydd hwn, y symbol newydd hwn i Gymru. Yn y cyfamser, gallwn weithio yma’n effeithiol ac yn effeithlon.
I have written to Alun Michael as First Secretary because I feel strongly about this subject. It has nothing to do with the institution—I am sure that everybody here is committed to making it work. We would not attend Committees and Plenary sessions and work as we do were that not the case. Let us not bandy words and throw accusations around about that. This is a question of whether we spend this money out of valuable resources. We should not be doing this with the figure inevitably climbing ever higher. I would urge that there is support for amendment 1 and that there is at least a postponement of the decision until we can afford this building, because we cannot at the moment.
Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at Alun Michael fel Prif Ysgrifennydd am fy mod yn teimlo’n gryf ar y pwnc hwn. Nid oes a wnelo hyn unrhyw beth â’r sefydliad—yr wyf yn siŵr fod pawb yma wedi ymroi i sicrhau bod hwnnw’n gweithio. Ni fyddem yn mynychu Pwyllgorau a Chyfarfodydd Llawn a gweithio fel y gwnawn pe na bai hynny’n wir. Peidiwn â chroesi cleddyfau a gwneud cyhuddiadau i’r perwyl hwnnw. Cwestiwn yw hyn ynghylch a ddylid gwario’r arian yma allan o’n hadnoddau gwerthfawr. Ni ddylem wneud hyn wrth i’r ffigur godi’n anochel uwch o hyd. Anogaf gefnogaeth i welliant 1 a bod o leiaf ohiriad o’r penderfyniad tan y gallwn fforddio’r adeilad hwn, oherwydd ni allwn ar hyn o bryd.
Until that time, I regret that we will not be able to participate in discussions about the building because we feel strongly about whether or not we should have a new building at this stage. That is nothing to do with the institution, which is here, and we will of course do everything that we can to make it a success. This debate is part of that process, a genuine issue as to how resources should properly be spent.
Tan hynny, gresynaf na fyddwn yn gallu cymryd rhan mewn trafodaethau am yr adeilad oherwydd ein bod yn teimlo’n gryf ynghylch a ddylid cael adeilad newydd ar hyn o bryd ai peidio. Nid oes a wnelo hynny ddim â’r sefydliad, sydd yma, ac wrth reswm gwnawn bopeth a allwn i sicrhau ei fod yn llwyddo. Rhan o’r broses honno yw’r ddadl hon, cwestiwn gwirioneddol ynghylch sut y dylid gwario adnoddau yn briodol.
Caf fy nhemtio i siarad yn Saesneg er mwyn gweld a fyddai chwerthin mawr yn atseinio trwy’r ystafell. Gwrthsafaf y demtasiwn.
I am tempted to speak in English to see whether great laughter would echo through the room. I will withstand the temptation.
Mae gennyf ddau bwynt—crybwyllodd Helen Mary un ohonynt eisoes. Yn gyntaf, safonau dwbl y Torïaid ar y mater hwn. Pa gwestiynau y maent hwy wedi eu gofyn ar wariant ar Balas Westminster? Os ydynt am brotestio ynglŷn â’r gwariant ar adeilad y Cynulliad, a ydynt yn fodlon protestio ynglŷn â’r gwariant ar San Steffan? Er enghraifft, mae’r gwariant ar Portcullis House, dros bum mlynedd, yn £191.4 miliwn. Cost gwaith newydd ac adnewyddu, ar wahân i’r ffigur hwnnw dros yr un cyfnod, yw £153.6 miliwn. Cyfanswm o £345 miliwn.
I have two points—Helen Mary has already mentioned one of them. First, the Tories’ double standards on this matter. What questions have they asked on expenditure on the Palace of Westminster? If they wish to protest about the expenditure on the Assembly building, are they willing to protest about the expenditure on Westminster? For example, the expenditure on Portcullis House, over five years, is £191.4 million. The cost of new works and renovation, apart from that figure over the same period, is £153.6 million. A total of £345 million.
Cymharaf hyn â’r £85 miliwn y gofynnwn amdano oddi wrth y Trysorlys y flwyddyn nesaf ar gyfer Amcan 1—mae dros deirgwaith cymaint. Dyna’r math o gymhariaeth y mae angen ei gwneud.
I compare this to the £85 million for which we ask the Treasury for Objective 1 next year—it is more than three times as much. That is the sort of comparison that needs to be made.
Mae cost cynnal a chadw ar ben hyn, sef £58 miliwn. Cost moderneiddio ceginau Tŷ’r Cyffredin yw £8.7 miliwn dros dair blynedd. Y flwyddyn nesaf byddai’r adnewyddu yn cynnwys:
Maintenance costs are additional to this, namely £58 million. The cost of modernising the House of Commons kitchens is £8.7 million over three years. Next year renovations would include:
‘Refurbishment of Norman Shaw South: £2 million Furniture and Soft Furnishings Replacement: £174,000 Redecoration of the Smoking Room: £25,000 Refurbishment of the Chess Room: £45,000 Restoration of Internal Stone Reveals, Oak and Brass: £80,00 Stone Cleaning of a Picture Corridor at Central Lobby: £85,000’.
Ni ddywedaf lawer am bethau megis:
I will not say much about such matters as:
‘Replacement of Encaustic tiles, Restoration of the Medals Corridor’.
Mae’r holl bethau hyn werth miloedd o bunnoedd. Nid oes unrhyw un yn cyfrif y ceiniogau na’r punnoedd yn San Steffan. Nid yw’r gymhariaeth rhwng y costau hyn a chost adeilad y Cynulliad yn ddim byd llai na grotésg. Gwerir cannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd ar yr adeilad hwn yn Llundain, ac ni chlywais smic gan y Torïaid na Glyn Davies am hyn. Gallwn wneud cymariaethau eraill—beth am Ganolfan y Mileniwm a’r stadiwm cenedlaethol? Mae symiau mawr o arian cyhoeddus ynghlwm wrth y rhain.
All these things are worth thousands of pounds. Nobody counts the pennies or the pounds in Westminster. A comparison between these costs and the cost of the Assembly building is nothing less than grotesque. Hundreds of millions of pounds are spent on this building in London, and I have not heard even a murmur from the Tories or Glyn Davies about this. I could make other comparisons—what about the Millennium Centre and the national stadium? Large sums of public money are involved in these.
Yn ail, gofynnaf i Glyn Davies a yw’n credu bod Cymru’n haeddu senedd-dy? Dywedodd Nick Bourne fod angen inni weithio i ddangos ein bod yn haeddu gwell ystafell na hon. Beth am y genedl? A yw hi’n haeddu senedd-dy urddasol a phrydferth? Os nag yw Glyn Davies yn credu hynny, mae ei honiad ei fod yn Gymro gwlatgar a balch yn hollol wag. Nid yw cenedl nad yw’n chwenychu senedd-dy go iawn yn haeddu bod yn genedl. Nid yw’n haeddu cael ei disgrifio fel gwlad.
Secondly, I ask Glyn Davies whether he believes that Wales deserves a parliament house? Nick Bourne said that we need to work to demonstrate that we deserve a better room than this. What about the nation? Does it not deserve a beautiful and dignified parliament house? If Glyn Davies does not believe that it does, then his boast that he is a patriotic and proud Welshman is completely empty. A nation that does not desire a real parliament house does not deserve to be a nation. It does not deserve to be described as a country.
Os yw Glyn Davies yn honni bod Tŷ Crucywel yn gwneud y tro fel senedd-dy cenedlaethol, mae rhywbeth o’i le gyda’i chwaeth bensaernïol. Byddai bodloni ar y pentwr brics coch hyn yn ein gwneud yn destun sbort i ymwelwyr tramor, gwleidyddion, diplomyddion, pobl fusnes, diwydianwyr, ac yn y blaen. Yr wyf wedi fy siomi yn Glyn yn y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn meddwl tipyn ohono—mae’n cynrychioli’r teip gorau o Dori. Mae’n debyg i lawer o’m teulu i yn siroedd Brycheiniog a Maesyfed.
If Glyn Davies claims that Crickhowell House will make do as a national parliament house, there is something wrong with his architectural taste. Merely accepting this pile of red bricks would make us a laughing stock in the eyes of foreign visitors, politicians, diplomats, business people, industrialists, and so on. I am disappointed in Glyn on this matter. I think quite a lot of him—he represents the best type of Tory. He is similar to many of my family in Brecknockshire and Radnorshire.
Mae Glyn a’i blaid yn chwarae gêm bopiwlistaidd, siêp. Bydd yn ennill rhywfaint o boblogrwydd yn y cyfnod byr, ond pan fydd yr adeilad newydd ar ei draed a’r miloedd yn tyrru i’w weld ac yn ymfalchïo ynddo—o Gymru ac o bob cwr o’r byd—bydd y Torïaid yn talu’r pris am eu diffyg gweledigaeth a bychander eu meddyliau.
Glyn and his party are playing a cheap, populist game. He will gain a modicum of popularity in the short term, but when the new building is up and thousands flocking to see it and taking pride in it—from Wales and from every corner of the world—the Tories will pay the price for their lack of vision and their small-mindedness.
Point of order. I am pleased that Cynog is so well bred. Is it proper for a Member to speak at such length about an issue that does not have any bearing on this Chamber, which is what Cynog Dafis did in the first part of that speech?
Pwynt o drefn. Yr wyf yn falch fod Cynog o dras mor dda. A ydyw’n briodol i Aelod siarad gyhyd am bwnc nad oes a wnelo ddim oll â’r Siambr hon, sef yr hyn a wnaeth Cynog Dafis yn rhan gyntaf yr araith honno?
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I am grateful for that point of order, because I am exercised by the question of debating issues in this Chamber that are not relevant to our activities. We are here to debate, in the words of the Government of Wales Act ‘matters affecting Wales’. We are not involved in by-elections to the United Kingdom parliament or general elections to the United Kingdom parliament. However, I took the view that Cynog Dafis was developing a comparison of relative public expenditure on central, as opposed to devolved, institutions in the United Kingdom, and therefore it was a matter affecting Wales. However, I will reflect on this.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y pwynt hwnnw o drefn, gan fod y cwestiwn o drafod materion yn y Siambr hon nad ydynt yn berthnasol i’n gweithgareddau yn fy mlino. Yr ydym yma i drafod, yng ngeiriau Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru, ‘materion sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru’. Nid oes gennym ran mewn is-etholiadau i senedd y Deyrnas Unedig nac etholiadau cyffredinol i senedd y Deyrnas Unedig. Fodd bynnag, cymerais y farn fod Cynog Dafis yn datblygu cymhariaeth o wariant cyhoeddus cymharol ar sefydliadau canolog, yn hytrach na datganoledig, yn y Deyrnas Unedig, a’i fod felly yn fater a effeithiai ar Gymru. Fodd bynnag, meddyliaf eto ynglŷn â hyn.
Please do not, I want to use it in future.
Da chi, peidiwch, fe hoffwn ei ddefnyddio yn y dyfodol.
There are certain decisions that always require courage. I endorse Cynog’s comments about the populist view taken by some Members. I will come to the issues that should be addressed in a moment. However, I emphasise the importance of a party making a decision and taking their seats in that new Chamber and as Cynog says, taking visitors around. You should reflect on your views today and ensure that you are making a decision together.
Y mae rhai penderfyniadau sydd bob amser yn gofyn am ddewrder. Cefnogaf sylwadau Cynog am y safiad popiwlistaidd a wneir gan rai Aelodau. Deuaf at y materion y dylid eu trafod mewn munud. Fodd bynnag, pwysleisiaf bwysigrwydd plaid yn gwneud penderfyniad ac yn cymryd ei seddau yn y Siambr newydd honno ac, fel y dywed Cynog, yn hebrwng ymwelwyr o gwmpas y lle. Dylech ystyried eich sylwadau heddiw a gwneud yn siŵr eich bod yn gwneud penderfyniad gyda’ch gilydd.
Does Mick Bates think that groups like Plaid Cymru, which do not believe in the sovereignty of Westminster, should be entitled to sit there? I believe that if they are elected, they have a right to be there.
A yw Mick Bates yn meddwl y dylai grwpiau fel Plaid Cymru, nad ydynt yn credu yn sofraniaeth San Steffan, gael hawl i eistedd yno? Credaf fod ganddynt hawl i fod yno os cawsant eu hethol.
You should be asking a member of Plaid Cymru.
Dylech ofyn hynny i aelod o Blaid Cymru.
I am asking you.
Yr wyf yn gofyn i chi.
Do you not have the courage to ask them?
Oes gennych chi ddim mo’r dewrder i ofyn iddynt hwy?
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Order. I know there is great interest in our internal affairs but the sovereignty of Westminster, or anywhere else, is not relevant to this debate.
Trefn. Gwn fod diddordeb mawr yn ein materion mewnol ond nid yw sofraniaeth San Steffan, nac unman arall, yn berthnasol i’r ddadl hon.
The building offers us a great opportunity, particularly to use Welsh building material. I endorse the last clause in the motion. Every effort must be made to ensure that the social and economic value of sourcing material in Wales is fully understood. The effect on our business community will be great. What could be better than to use oak from Montgomery, slate from Gwynedd and steel from Llanwern? The building should also be a statement on a future renewable energy industry in Wales. Let us see a wind turbine in the bay, supplying electricity, solar cells and, perhaps, even a red dragon made of photovoltaic cells. We have an opportunity to make this building a model for this century. Solar power is a clean, inexhaustible source of energy. It is this century’s equivalent of a microchip and I would like us to have the courage to make this building an example for the renewable energy industry in Wales.
Mae’r adeilad yn cynnig cyfle mawr inni, yn enwedig i ddefnyddio defnyddiau Cymreig. Ategaf gymal olaf y cynnig. Rhaid gwneud pob ymdrech i sicrhau y deellir yn llawn werth cymdeithasol ac economaidd sicrhau defnyddiau o Gymru. Bydd yr effaith ar ein cymuned fusnes yn fawr. Beth allai fod yn well na defnyddio derw o Faldwyn, llechi o Wynedd a dur o Lanwern? Dylai’r adeilad hefyd fod yn ddatganiad ar ddiwydiant ynni adnewyddol i’r dyfodol yng Nghymru. Gadewch inni weld tyrbin gwynt yn y bae, yn cyflenwi trydan, celloedd solar ac, efallai, hyd yn oed ddraig goch wedi’i gwneud o gelloedd ffotofoltäig. Mae gennym gyfle i sicrhau bod yr adeilad hwn yn batrwm i’r ganrif hon. Mae pwer yr haul yn ffynhonnell ynni glân a dihysbydd. Dyma’r hyn sydd yn cyfateb i’r meicrosglodyn yn y ganrif hon a hoffwn inni fod yn ddigon mentrus i wneud yr adeilad hwn yn esiampl i’r diwydiant ynni adnewyddol yng Nghymru.
To clarify the situation, Mick, the initial figure was nearer £10 million; it escalated to around £15 million. It then increased to £20 million and is now up to £23 million. You are presenting preposterous, impractical and stupid ideas that would have no bearing on the building and would escalate the cost even further. I suspect that we would not have much change from £100 million if you continue.
I egluro’r sefyllfa, Mick, yr oedd y ffigur gwreiddiol yn nes at £10 miliwn; tyfodd i oddeutu £15 miliwn. Wedyn cynyddodd i £20 miliwn ac erbyn hyn mae’n £23 miliwn. Yr ydych yn cynnig syniadau hurt, anymarferol a thwp na fyddai’n cael unrhyw effaith ar yr adeilad ac a fyddai’n chwyddo’r gost ymhellach fyth. Yr wyf yn amau na fyddai llawer o newid gennym o £100 miliwn petaech chi’n mynd yn eich blaen.
As someone who considers himself to be a bit of an economist, I tell you that renewable energy pays for itself. That is the principle of this building. The necessary investment will be returned in that way. Part of our responsibility is to inspire a better future and this building could do that for a renewable energy industry in Wales, if it was built out of local materials, was energy efficient and powered by renewable sources.
Fel un sydd yn ystyried ei hun yn dipyn o economegydd, gallaf ddweud wrthych fod ynni adnewyddol yn talu amdano’i hun. Dyna egwyddor yr adeilad hwn. Ceir y buddsoddiad angenrheidiol yn ôl fel hynny. Rhan o’n cyfrifoldeb ni yw ysbrydoli gwell dyfodol a gallai’r adeilad hwn wneud hynny i ddiwydiant ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru, pe bai wedi’i adeiladu o ddefnyddiau lleol, yn effeithlon o ran defnydd ynni ac yn defnyddio pwer o ffynonellau adnewyddol.
There is a problem with the perception that the people of Wales will have of the building and we must therefore find a creative way to involve people around Wales. Identity is an issue. Consideration should be given to including a large piece of artwork in the building, constructed by people from all over Wales.
Y mae problem gyda’r argraff a gaiff pobl Cymru o’r adeilad, ac felly rhaid inni ganfod ffordd greadigol o gynnwys pobl o bob rhan o Gymru. Mae’n gwestiwn o hunaniaeth. Dylid ystyried cynnwys darn mawr o waith celfyddydol yn yr adeilad, wedi’i adeiladu gan bobl o bob cwr o’r wlad.
Shall we start an auction? [Laughter.]
A ydym am ddechrau ocsiwn? [Chwerthin.]
Do you share the Conservative view that art in Wales is a joke?
A ydych yn rhannu’r farn Geidwadol mai jôc yw’r celfyddydau yng Nghymru?
It is obvious from their reaction to the voluntary sector, renewable energy and art in Wales that they consider most things a joke and only take the populist stance.
Mae’n amlwg o’u hadwaith i’r sector gwirfoddol, ynni adnewyddadwy a chelf yng Nghymru fod y rhan fwyaf o bethau’n jôc iddynt ac mai dim ond cymryd y safbwynt popiwlistaidd a wnânt.
To conclude, I wrote to Tom Middlehurst about such a project and look forward to a positive response. My party and I have the courage to support the new building project and let us hope the nation does too.
I gloi, ysgrifennais at Tom Middlehurst ynghylch prosiect o’r fath ac edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb cadarnhaol. Mae fy mhlaid a minnau’n ddigon dewr i gefnogi prosiect yr adeilad newydd a gobeithio y gwnaiff y genedl yr un modd.
Unlike Glyn Davies, I welcome the revised plans for the new Assembly building. I look forward to the completion of this project in the shortest possible timescale. I agree with Mick Bates that it took a courageous decision but it is the right one. Since May, we have had many discussions, questions and spurious supplementaries to oral questions about the new building and its proposed cost. Today we have the information in front of us and we must realise that the decision to build the new Assembly building, a symbol of the new politics and the new beginning in Wales, was one that was taken with good reason.
Yn wahanol i Glyn Davies, yr wyf i’n croesawu’r cynlluniau diwygiedig ar gyfer adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Edrychaf ymlaen at gwblhad y prosiect hwn yn yr amser byrraf posibl. Cytunaf gyda Mick Bates y bu angen penderfyniad dewr, ond hwn yw’r un iawn. Ers mis Mai, cawsom lawer o drafodaethau, cwestiynau a ffug atodiadau i gwestiynau llafar am yr adeilad newydd a’i gost ddisgwyliedig. Heddiw mae’r wybodaeth gennym o’n blaenau a rhaid inni sylweddoli fod y penderfyniad i adeiladu adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, symbol o’r wleidyddiaeth newydd a’r dechreuad newydd yng Nghymru, yn un a gymerwyd gyda rheswm da.
In a minority party debate in June 1999, if memory serves me, Nick Bourne spoke about the symbolism of a new building and referred to several grand council buildings in town centres. He also referred to Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, which I found curious at the time. The location of this council building has been criticised as inaccessible by many of my constituents. In addition, it is not always easy to accommodate many of the public who want to observe the proceedings. An inaccessible building is not democracy in action. It is not what we should aim for.
Mewn dadl plaid leiafrifol ym Mehefin 1999, os cofiaf yn iawn, siaradodd Nick Bourne am symbolaeth adeilad newydd a chyfeiriodd at nifer o adeiladau cyngor crand yng nghanol trefi. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, a oedd yn rhyfedd i mi ar y pryd. Mae lleoliad adeilad y cyngor hwn wedi’i feirniadu am fod yn anhygyrch gan lawer o f’etholwyr. Yn ogystal, nid yw bob amser yn hawdd gwneud lle i lawer o’r cyhoedd sydd eisiau gwylio’r cyfarfodydd. Nid democratiaeth ar waith yw adeilad anhygyrch. Nid dyna’r hyn y dylem fod yn anelu ato.
The reference to Rhondda Cynon Taff and other local authorities was not an endorsement of the access their buildings provide for disabled people or others. It was to attack the cost of that particular building. That is the point that we come back to in this debate. Could Christine Chapman—taking out some of the passion that Members understandably feel—give an indication of where she thinks that this overshoot on the budget should come from? Will it come from cuts in the hospital services or education? From which budget will you pay for it? It must come out of the existing Barnett block, therefore, it must come from somewhere.
Nid oedd y cyfeiriad at Rondda Cynon Taf ac awdurdodau lleol eraill yn ganmoliaeth i’r modd y mae eu hadeiladau’n caniatáu mynediad i bobl anabl neu eraill. Y bwriad oedd ymosod ar gost yr adeilad arbennig hwnnw. Dyna’r pwynt y down yn ôl ato yn y ddadl hon. Allai Christine Chapman—gan hepgor ychydig o’r angerdd dealladwy a deimlir gan Aelodau—roi rhyw syniad o ble y mae hi’n meddwl y dylai’r gwariant ychwanegol hwn ar y gyllideb ddod? A ddaw o doriadau yng ngwasanaethau ysbytai neu addysg? O ba gyllideb y bwriadwch dalu amdano? Rhaid iddo ddod allan o’r bloc Barnett presennol, felly rhaid iddo ddod o rywle.
I thank Nick Bourne for, at least, agreeing that access to a public building is an important issue. I will refer to some of the other points later. I welcomed Nick Bourne’s speech last year when he said that his Conservative group were committed to making the Assembly work. I was pleased about that. That sentiment was repeated this week in an article in The House Magazine by his colleague Glyn Davies. He said that the Assembly is here to stay and that all 60 Assembly Members have a responsibility to ensure that it functions for the betterment of Wales. I hope that we are all committed to making the Assembly work: that is why we are here. The last message that we want to send to the public is that we concentrate on trivial matters as we have done recently when we have had questions about potted plants and, today, seagulls.
Diolch i Nick Bourne am gytuno o leiaf fod mynediad i adeilad cyhoeddus yn gwestiwn pwysig. Cyfeiriaf at rai o’r pwyntiau eraill yn y man. Croesewais araith Nick Bourne y llynedd pan ddywedodd fod ei grŵp Ceidwadol wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn gweithio. Yr oeddwn yn falch am hynny. Ailadroddwyd yr awydd hwnnw yr wythnos hon mewn erthygl yn The House Magazine gan ei gyd-Aelod Glyn Davies. Dywedodd ef fod y Cynulliad yma i aros a bod gan bawb o’r 60 o Aelodau Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau ei fod yn gweithio er lles Cymru. Gobeithiaf ein bod i gyd yn ymroddedig i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn gweithio: dyna pam yr ydym yma. Y neges olaf y byddem am ei hanfon i’r cyhoedd yw ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar faterion pitw fel y gwnaethom yn ddiweddar pan gawsom gwestiynau am blanhigion a, heddiw, gwylanod.
I am concerned about the point you made about trivial matters. Do you consider the sum of £23 million to be trivial?
Y mae’r pwynt a wnaethoch am faterion pitw yn fy mhoeni. A ydych o’r farn fod £23 miliwn yn swm pitw?
I was referring to the question about potted plants. I had many phone calls from constituents who felt that that brought the Assembly into disrepute.
Yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio at y cwestiwn am blanhigion pot. Cefais lawer o alwadau ffôn gan etholwyr a deimlai fod hynny’n dwyn anfri ar y Cynulliad.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
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Will you give way to David Davies?
A wnewch chi ildio i David Davies?
I will move on. You have had your day, David. Questions about potted plants only make the Assembly a laughing stock.
Bwriaf ymlaen. Yr ydych wedi cael eich dydd, David. Dim ond gwneud y Cynulliad yn destun gwawd a wna cwestiynau am blanhigion pot.
The reason I asked that question about the potted plant was because the answer to a similar question had shown that somebody had spent £32,000 on curtains that do not even close. Do you consider that spending £32,000 on curtains that will not close, instead of on teachers’ salaries, flu jabs, school textbooks and other items was a useful way to spend money?
Y rheswm y gofynnais y cwestiwn hwnnw am y planhigyn oedd am fod yr ateb i gwestiwn tebyg wedi dangos fod rhywun wedi gwario £32,000 ar lenni nad ydynt hyd yn oed yn cau. A ydych o’r farn fod gwario £32,000 ar lenni na wnaiff gau, yn hytrach nag ar gyflogau athrawon, brechiadau ffliw, gwerslyfrau ysgol ac eitemau eraill yn ffordd fuddiol o wario arian?
Every budget decision is important. We must move on and look at the real priorities of the Assembly. As far as the building is concerned, we have set out our stall. We have the guidance issued by the National Assembly Advisory Group. We want the Assembly to be as open, accountable and—particularly—accessible to the public as possible. I do not believe that our present building satisfies these requirements, and I know that many of you agree with me.
Mae pob penderfyniad cyllideb yn bwysig. Rhaid inni symud ymlaen ac edrych ar wir flaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad. O ran yr adeilad hwn, yr ydym wedi gosod ein stondin. Mae gennym y canllawiau a gyhoeddwyd gan Grŵp Ymgynghorol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr ydym eisiau i’r Cynulliad hwn fod mor agored, atebol ac—yn arbennig—hygyrch i’r cyhoedd â phosibl. Nid wyf yn credu fod ein hadeilad presennol yn bodloni’r gofynion hyn, ac yr wyf yn gwybod fod llawer ohonoch yn cytuno â mi.
We have a public gallery that has seats for fewer people than there are Members. That does not allow us the greatest degree of openness. Let us not forget that we are investing for the future in Wales, and the new building is part of that investment. The Conservative group will come out with the old line that the money should be used for hospitals and education. I reiterate what my colleagues Huw Lewis and Ron Davies said last year. It is hard to be lectured about spending money on hospitals and schools by a party that was in power in Wales for the best part of two decades. I must have missed Nick Bourne’s journey to Damascus. When his party was last in power it did as much as it possibly could to run down and under-fund all of the institutions on which it now claims to approve spending money. There is a certain amount of hypocrisy in Glyn Davies’s amendment.
Mae gennym oriel gyhoeddus gyda seddau i lai o bobl na nifer yr Aelodau. Nid yw hynny’n caniatáu inni fod mor agored ag y gellid. Nac anghofiwn ein bod yn buddsoddi i’r dyfodol yng Nghymru, ac mae’r adeilad newydd yn rhan o’r buddsoddiad hwnnw. Bydd y grŵp Ceidwadol yn dod allan â’r hen linell y dylid defnyddio’r arian ar gyfer ysbytai ac addysg. Ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedodd fy nghyd-Aelodau Huw Lewis a Ron Davies y llynedd. Mae’n anodd derbyn darlith ar wario arian ar ysbytai ac ysgolion gan blaid a fu mewn grym yng Nghymru am y rhan orau o ddau ddegawd. Rhaid fy mod wedi colli taith Nick Bourne i Ddamascus. Pan oedd ei blaid ef mewn grym ddiwethaf fe wnaeth bopeth o fewn ei gallu i wanhau a than-ariannu’r holl sefydliadau y mae bellach yn honni cymeradwyo gwario arian arnynt. Y mae rhywfaint o ragrith yng ngwelliant Glyn Davies.
I find that incredible and almost misguided. If you were to examine the local education authority budgets managed by your own party, for example in Cardiff County Council, you would see that it spends £500 per secondary pupil on administrating the LEA budget. That is 20 per cent of the allocation. You should look to your own party to see where it spends money. Perhaps you should write to the local authorities telling them to rein their expenditure back so that you can find some money to build this monstrosity.
Yr wyf yn ystyried hynny’n anhygoel a bron yn gyfeiliornus. Pa baech yn archwilio cyllidebau’r awdurdodau addysg lleol a reolir gan eich plaid eich hun, er enghraifft yng Nghyngor Sir Caerdydd, fe welech ei fod yn gwario £500 am bob disgybl uwchradd ar weinyddu cyllideb yr AALl. Dyna 20 y cant o’r dyraniad. Dylech edrych ar eich plaid eich hun i weld ym mhle y mae’n gwario arian. Efallai y dylech ysgrifennu at yr awdurdodau lleol i ddweud wrthynt ffrwyno’u gwariant er mwyn i chi allu canfod rhywfaint o arian i dalu am adeiladu’r erchyllbeth hwn.
I will discuss this with Jonathan later on. I find it repugnant to call the new Assembly building a monstrosity. [Interruption.]
Trafodaf hyn gyda Jonathan yn ddiweddarach. Gwrthun o beth i mi yw clywed galw adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn erchyllbeth. [Torri ar draws.]
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Order. I have a point of order from Carwyn Jones.
Trefn. Mae gennyf bwynt o drefn gan Carwyn Jones.
Llywydd, I find it extremely disrespectful to this institution and to you as Llywydd that when Members of the Conservative group stand up to speak they turn their backs on you and speak directly to the Member they wish to address. That is wrong. They should speak to the Chair.
Lywydd, credaf ei fod yn eithriadol o amharchus i’r sefydliad hwn ac i chi fel Llywydd fod Aelodau o’r grŵp Ceidwadol, pan godant i siarad, yn troi eu cefnau arnoch ac yn siarad yn uniongyrchol â’r Aelod y maent yn dymuno’i gyfarch. Nid yw hynny’n gywir. Dylent annerch y Gadair.
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If we had a new Chamber in the round, that problem might not arise.
Pe bai gennym Siambr newydd ar ffurf cylch, efallai na fyddai’r broblem honno’n codi.
Point of order. I have put up with this all afternoon. We are all prone to making the odd comment during speeches. However, the level of noise from the Conservative gentlemen to my right has been great during speeches—not just during this debate but throughout this afternoon. Clearly, Members have the right to make interventions, but these are not interventions. The level of noise has made it impossible for me to hear much of what has been said.
Pwynt o drefn. Yr wyf wedi dioddef hyn drwy’r prynhawn. Yr ydym i gyd yn dueddol o wneud sylw neu ddau yn ystod areithiau. Fodd bynnag, mae lefel y sŵn gan y bonheddwyr Ceidwadol ar y dde imi wedi bod yn fawr yn ystod areithiau—nid dim ond yn ystod y ddadl hon ond drwy’r prynhawn. Yn amlwg, mae gan Aelodau hawl i wneud ymyriadau, ond nid ymyriadau yw’r rhain. Mae lefel y sŵn wedi golygu ei bod yn amhosibl i mi glywed llawer o’r hyn a ddywedwyd.
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I am grateful to you for drawing that to my attention. It concerns me that there seems to be more excitement when we debate our own internal matters than when we debate policy.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ddwyn hynny i’m sylw. Mae’n destun pryder i mi fod mwy o gyffro i’w weld wrth drafod ein materion mewnol ein hunain nag wrth drafod polisi.
I thank Jenny for that and agree heartily with her comments. I will not take any more interventions as I know that many more Members want to speak on this.
Diolch i Jenny am hynny a chytunaf yn llwyr â’i sylwadau. Ni chymeraf ragor o ymyriadau gan fy mod yn gwybod fod llawer mwy o Aelodau eisiau siarad ar hyn.
This talk about the health service and education clouds the issue. We have promised to be open, accountable and wholly democratic. The new building will contribute greatly to that. The current building functions well up to a point, but it is not good enough. We want our actions to be transparent to as many people as possible. That is at the heart of devolution, and this building does not serve devolution well.
Mae’r holl sôn am y gwasanaeth iechyd ac addysg yn cymylu’r ddadl. Yr ydym wedi addo bod yn agored, yn atebol ac yn gwbl ddemocrataidd. Bydd yr adeilad newydd hwn yn cyfrannu’n fawr at hynny. Mae’r adeilad presennol yn gweithio’n dda hyd at ryw bwynt, ond nid yw’n ddigon da. Mae arnom eisiau i’n gweithredoedd fod mor dryloyw i gynifer o bobl ag sydd yn bosibl. Dyna sydd wrth galon datganoli, ac nid yw’r adeilad hwn yn gwasanaethu datganoli’n dda.
We are not seeking a new building merely to feather our own nests. This is not about current Assembly Members wanting plush new accommodation, because, in the great scheme of things, we are only passing through. We need a chamber that promotes the best possible debate. It is simply not good enough that people like Huw and Helen Mary are obscured behind pillars in this Chamber due to a design defect.
Nid dim ond er mwyn pluo’n nyth ein hunain yr ydym yn ceisio adeilad newydd. Nid mater bod Aelodau presennol y Cynulliad eisiau lle newydd crand yw hwn, oherwydd, yng nghynllun mawr pethau, dim ond pasio drwodd yr ydym ni. Mae arnom angen siambr sydd yn hyrwyddo’r dadlau gorau posibl. Nid yw’n ddigon da fod pobl fel Huw a Helen Mary wedi’u cuddio y tu ôl i bileri yn y Siambr hon oherwydd diffyg yn y cynllun.
Also, we do not have the facilities here to allow the educational aspect of the Assembly to be fully utilised. Groups of children are unable to come to this Chamber and observe democracy in action easily. They are looking at our backs, cramped into a space at the back of this Chamber and there is no space for them to do any written work or to see what is going on. We want to look out from the Assembly and inspire the people of Wales and, more importantly, the children of Wales who will occupy our seats in the future. We want to engage them in the Assembly process. Several colleagues, including Jonathan, have made this point many times.
Hefyd, nid oes gennym y cyfleusterau yma i ganiatáu defnyddio agwedd addysgol y Cynulliad yn llawn. Mae grwpiau o blant yn methu â dod i’r Siambr hon yn hawdd i weld democratiaeth ar waith. Maent yn edrych ar ein cefnau, wedi’u gwasgu i le yng nghefn y Siambr hon ac nid oes lle iddynt wneud unrhyw waith ysgrifenedig na gweld beth sydd yn mynd ymlaen. Mae arnom eisiau edrych allan o’r Cynulliad ac ysbrydoli pobl Cymru ac, yn bwysicach, plant Cymru a fydd yn cymryd ein seddau yn y dyfodol. Mae arnom eisiau eu cynnwys hwy ym mhroses y Cynulliad. Mae nifer o’m cyd-Aelodau, gan gynnwys Jonathan, wedi gwneud y pwynt hwn lawer gwaith.
The new design and the improvements to the plans to incorporate changes requested by Assembly Members show that the new building will be fully accessible, open to all members of society and will allow greater pubic scrutiny of Committee proceedings. Those are plus points.
Mae’r dyluniad newydd a’r gwelliannau i’r cynlluniau i gynnwys newidiadau y gofynnwyd amdanynt gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn dangos y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn gwbl hygyrch, yn agored i holl aelodau cymdeithas ac yn caniatáu mwy o gyfle i’r cyhoedd weld Pwyllgorau ar waith. Mae’r rheini’n bwyntiau cadarnhaol.
What happened a minute ago in this Chamber illustrates its shortcomings. When I stand up to speak, the first thing that the public see is my back. That applies to all Members. The public do not see their politicians’ faces, they see their backs. The first thing that you do to visitors to this Chamber is turn your back on them. You can try to rectify that, as Jonathan did, by turning around and talking to the person behind you. However, there are two drawbacks to that. First, the camera sees your back and, secondly, the microphone cannot pick up your voice. People come to this gallery and cannot hear what is going on. They have to use the headphones all the time to hear what is being said. Often, they cannot hear what some Conservative speakers are saying, thankfully.
Mae’r hyn a ddigwyddodd funud yn ôl yn y Siambr hon yn dangos ei diffygion. Pan godaf i siarad, y peth cyntaf a wêl y cyhoedd yw fy nghefn. Mae hynny’n wir am yr Aelodau i gyd. Nid yw’r cyhoedd yn gweld wynebau eu gwleidyddion, dim ond eu cefnau. Y peth cyntaf a wnewch i ymwelwyr yn y Siambr hon yw troi’ch cefn arnynt. Gallwch geisio gwneud iawn am hynny, fel y gwnaeth Jonathan, drwy droi a siarad gyda’r person y tu ôl ichi. Fodd bynnag, mae dwy anfantais i hynny. Yn gyntaf, mae’r camera’n gweld eich cefn ac, yn ail, ni all y meicroffon godi’ch llais. Daw pobl i’r oriel hon ac ni allant glywed beth sydd yn mynd ymlaen. Rhaid iddynt ddefnyddio’r clustffonau drwy’r amser er mwyn clywed yr hyn sydd yn cael ei ddweud. Yn aml, ni allant glywed beth y mae rhai siaradwyr Ceidwadol yn ei ddweud, diolch byth.
The new building will cost £23 million. Cynog drew comparisons with Westminster. People say that our new building will be a politician’s palace but, in Westminster, over £300 million was spent on precisely that. It was not a building to which the public would have access or which people off the street could visit. Although this is an office building for us in terms of working space, people can visit it. It is open to all the people of Wales, unlike Westminster.
Bydd yr adeilad newydd yn costio £23 miliwn. Gwnaeth Cynog gymariaethau â San Steffan. Dywedir y bydd ein hadeilad newydd yn balas gwleidyddion, ond yn San Steffan gwariwyd £300 miliwn ar yr union beth hwnnw. Nid oedd yn adeilad y byddai’r cyhoedd yn cael mynd iddo nac y gallai pobl ymweld ag ef oddi ar y stryd. Er mai adeilad swyddfa yw hwn i ni yn nhermau lle gweithio, gall dderbyn ymwelwyr. Mae’n agored i holl bobl Cymru, yn wahanol i San Steffan.
We are not talking about a grandiose building where we are about to put marble in the toilets, granite in the roof and so on. We do not want to spend money unnecessarily. We want a functional building that allows access for all, and which at the same time looks architecturally attractive. For once, we will not have a square block. The new building will bring people into this area and illustrate what our nation is about.
Nid ydym yn sôn am adeilad crand lle’r ydym am roi marmor yn y toiledau, gwenithfaen yn y to ac yn y blaen. Nid oes arnom eisiau gwario arian heb angen. Mae arnom eisiau adeilad ymarferol sydd yn caniatáu mynediad i bawb, ac sydd yn edrych yn bensaernïol ddeniadol ar yr un pryd. Am unwaith, ni chawn floc sgwâr. Bydd yr adeilad newydd yn dod â phobl i mewn i’r ardal ac yn dangos nodweddion ein cenedl.
If everybody believed that we should not look at new buildings such as this and at the architecturally interesting, we would never have had Cathays Park. The people who built it would have left it be. We probably would have had a shopping centre there by now—a tremendous addition to architecture. We referred to the fact that we are passing through. Christine reminded us only too sharply of our mortality here. I thought immortality came with election; unfortunately, we all have to pass on. We must ask ourselves this: when we have left this place, what legacy will we have left the people of Wales? Do we leave this underground car park-like Chamber, an ex-computer room, or a building that is worthy of the new self-confident Wales? We should ask that question and that is why we should all vote for this new building as an illustration of what the new Wales is all about.
Petai pawb yn credu na ddylem edrych ar adeiladau newydd fel hwn ac ar bensaernïaeth ddiddorol, ni fuasem byth wedi cael Parc Cathays. Buasai’r bobl a’i hadeiladodd wedi gadael iddi fod. Mae’n debyg y buasai gennym ganolfan siopa yno erbyn hyn—ychwanegiad aruthrol at bensaernïaeth. Cyfeiriwyd at y ffaith mai dim ond pasio drwodd yr ydym ni. Atgoffodd Christine ni’n ddigon llym o’n meidroldeb yma. Yr oeddwn i’n meddwl y deuai anfeidroldeb gydag etholiad; ysywaeth, mae’n rhaid inni i gyd ymadael. Rhaid inni ofyn hyn i’n hunain: pan fyddwn wedi ymadael â’r lle hwn, pa etifeddiaeth fyddwn ni wedi’i gadael i bobl Cymru? A ydym am adael y Siambr hon, sydd yn debyg i faes parcio tanddaearol, hen ystafell gyfrifiaduron, ynteu adeilad sydd yn deilwng o’r Gymru newydd hunan-hyderus? Dylem ofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw a dyna pam y dylem i gyd bleidleisio dros yr adeilad newydd hwn fel darlun o’r hyn ydyw’r Gymru newydd.
I am being Rod Richards for the afternoon, speaking from his seat because my equipment has failed. We need a new building. That has already been said. It will be a magnificent statement about Wales coming of age and looking after itself. However, the public will accept it more if we are absolutely honest and open. I do not suggest that the First Secretary has not been that. However, why does it seem that so little attention was paid to the need for disability access at the original stage? I am confused about that. A year ago, a Labour women’s forum flagged that up and wrote a letter to somebody in power suggesting that it was right and proper that we should have disabled access and crèches. As not much care was taken at the original stage, I would like assurance that we will not have to pay more to include these facilities later.
Yr wyf yn bod yn Rod Richards am y prynhawn, yn siarad o’i sedd gan fod fy offer i wedi methu. Mae arnom angen adeilad newydd. Dywedwyd hynny’n barod. Bydd yn ddatganiad godidog fod Cymru wedi dod i oed ac yn sefyll ar ei thraed ei hun. Fodd bynnag, bydd y cyhoedd yn barotach i’w dderbyn os ydym yn gwbl onest ac agored. Nid wyf yn awgrymu fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd heb fod felly. Fodd bynnag, pam y mae’n ymddangos y talwyd cyn lleied o sylw i’r angen am fynediad i’r anabl ar y cychwyn? Mae hynny’n peri dryswch imi. Flwyddyn yn ôl, codwyd y pwynt yma gan fforwm merched y Blaid Lafur ac ysgrifennwyd llythyr at rywun mewn grym yn awgrymu mai da a phriodol fyddai sicrhau mynediad i’r anabl a meithrinfeydd. Gan na chymerwyd llawer o ofal yn y cam cyntaf, hoffwn gael sicrwydd na fydd yn rhaid inni dalu mwy i gynnwys y cyfleusterau hyn yn ddiweddarach.
I accept that I do not have the razor sharp memory of colleagues on the front benches. However, unless I am mistaken, during our discussion in the July meeting, I recall us saying that, as we devolved and took on more responsibility—as we would have to and are already doing to some extent—we should consider the need for more seats for Assembly Members. I would like assurance that this issue will be considered, because we do not want to ask the taxpayer—who is, sadly, having fun using this great concept as a political football—to pay again. In the future, we might need more Assembly Members to serve the public in the way that it deserves: the best, most efficient way.
Derbyniaf nad oes gennyf gof miniog fy nghyd-Aelodau ar y meinciau blaen. Fodd bynnag, os nad wyf yn camgymryd, yn ystod ein trafodaeth yn y cyfarfod ym mis Gorffennaf, cofiaf inni ddweud y dylem, wrth ddatganoli ac ymgymryd â mwy o gyfrifoldeb—fel y byddai’n rhaid ac fel yr ydym yn gwneud eisoes i ryw raddau—ystyried yr angen am fwy o seddau i Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Hoffwn sicrwydd y caiff y mater hwn ei ystyried, oherwydd nid oes arnom eisiau gofyn i’r trethdalwr—sydd, yn anffodus, yn cael modd i fyw wrth ddefnyddio’r cysyniad mawr hwn fel pêl-droed wleidyddol—dalu eto. Yn y dyfodol, efallai y bydd arnom angen mwy o Aelodau Cynulliad i wasanaethu’r cyhoedd yn y ffordd y maent yn ei haeddu: y ffordd orau, fwyaf effeithlon.
I will be brief. I warmly welcome the design changes to the new Assembly building and the fact that they are in response to the concerns of Assembly Members about accessibility and openness. These concerns were expressed in presentations and in the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. They are a vindication for the democratising process that devolution represents. Under the old regime, it is unlikely that the design faults of a building of this calibre would be challenged as they are now. I welcome the change to the external space at the front of the building, so that all areas are accessible at one level and, therefore, equally accessible to disabled people.
Byddaf yn gryno. Yr wyf yn croesawu’n gynnes y newidiadau yn nyluniad adeilad newydd y Cynulliad a’r ffaith eu bod yn ymateb i bryderon Aelodau’r Cynulliad ynghylch bod yn hygyrch ac yn agored. Mynegwyd y pryderon hyn mewn cyflwyniadau ac yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. Maent yn cyfiawnhau’r broses ddemocrateiddio a gynrychiolir gan ddatganoli. Dan yr hen drefn, mae’n annhebygol y câi diffygion dyluniad adeilad o’r safon yma eu herio fel y gwneir yn awr. Croesawaf y newid i’r gofod allanol o flaen yr adeilad, fel y gellir mynd i bob man ar un lefel ac, felly, y caniateir mynediad cyfartal i bobl anabl.
The extra cost represents value for money when it means that the seat of Government in Wales will be housed in a wholly accessible public building that embodies and symbolises the overriding concept of inclusivity that most of us strive to promote and integrate into our political culture. I say ‘most of us’ because if the Tories—sorry, the Welsh Conservatives—are so exercised about cost, they should not ask damn silly questions about potted plants.
Mae’r gost ychwanegol yn cynrychioli gwerth am arian pan olyga y bydd sedd Llywodraeth yng Nghymru wedi’i chartrefu mewn adeilad cyhoeddus cwbl hygyrch sydd yn ymgorfforiad ac yn symbol o’r cysyniad holl bwysig o gynhwysedd y mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn ymdrechu i’w hybu a’i gynnwys yn ein diwylliant gwleidyddol. Dywedaf ‘y rhan fwyaf ohonom’ oherwydd os yw’r Torïaid—mae’n ddrwg gennyf, y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig—yn poeni cymaint am y gost, ni ddylent ofyn cwestiynau gwirion ar y diawl am blanhigion pot.
In Pembrokeshire, which is in Wales, so it is relevant—
Yn Sir Benfro, sydd yng Nghymru, felly y mae’n berthnasol—
Point of Order. Does the Llywydd feel that ‘damn silly’ is an acceptable form of words to use when referring to the actions of a fellow Member?
Pwynt o drefn. A ydyw’r Llywydd yn teimlo bod ‘gwirion ar y diawl’ yn ffurf dderbyniol o eiriau i’w defnyddio wrth gyfeirio at yr hyn a wneir gan gyd-Aelod?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
As I have previously indicated, I leave it to the discretion and self-discipline of Members to decide on their use of words in context. I remind Members of the Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber that we have adopted. In other words, we should always be courteous. Perhaps Richard would like to reflect whether ‘damn silly’ is discourteous.
Fel yr wyf wedi nodi o’r blaen, fe’i gadawaf i ddoethineb a hunan-ddisgyblaeth Aelodau i benderfynu ar eu defnydd o eiriau mewn cyd-destun. Atgoffaf Aelodau am y Protocol ar Ymddygiad yn y Siambr a fabwysiadwyd genym. Mewn geiriau eraill, dylem bob amser fod yn gwrtais. Efallai yr hoffai Richard fyfyrio a ydyw ‘gwirion ar y diawl’ yn anghwrtais.
I hope I am a courteous person but, as I said, that was a damn silly question about potted plants.
Gobeithiaf fy mod yn berson cwrtais, ond, fel y dywedais, yr oedd hwnnw’n gwestiwn gwirion ar y diawl am blanhigion pot.
In Pembrokeshire, there is a brand new county hall that did not cost much less than the cost of the new Assembly building. That is just one unitary authority. The Conservatives in Pembrokeshire—those who call themselves Conservatives as well as those who choose to misrepresent themselves as independents—enthusiastically support the new county hall.
Yn Sir Benfro, mae neuadd sir newydd sbon na chostiodd lawer llai na chost adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Dim ond un awdurdod unedol yw hwnnw. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn Sir Benfro—y rhai sydd yn galw’u hunain yn Geidwadwyr yn ogystal â’r rhai sydd yn dewis eu camgyfleu eu hunain fel annibynwyr—yn frwd o blaid y neuadd sir newydd.
I welcome the changes and the continuing involvement of Disability Wales in the project and I look forward to completion of the brand new building in August 2002.
Croesawaf y newidiadau a’r rhan y mae Anabledd Cymru yn dal i’w chwarae yn y prosiect, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld yr adeilad newydd sbon gorffenedig yn Awst 2002.
I will not remind Glyn Davies of Alun Cairns’s comments to Mick Bates earlier, when he accused him of saying stupid things and asking stupid questions. Everyone has got a bit hot under the collar today, particularly on that side of the Chamber.
Nid atgoffaf Glyn Davies o sylwadau Alun Cairns wrth Mick Bates yn gynharach, pan gyhuddodd ef o ddweud pethau dwl a gofyn cwestiynau twp. Mae pawb wedi gwylltio braidd heddiw, yn enwedig yr ochr acw i’r Siambr.
Several Members have made excellent contributions in welcoming the new building, so I will not take up time by repeating those points. I want to concentrate on a small but important issue. I welcome the fact that the First Secretary has ensured, in his discussions with the project team, that the Merchant Seaman’s Memorial can stay in its original place. There was much concern and upset among the Merchant Seaman’s Association when the original design indicated that the memorial might have to be moved. Mr Bill Henke, in particular, made representations to me and the First Secretary, and I know that he, the members of the Merchant Seaman’s Association and their families would want me to pass on their sincere thanks to Alun Michael for ensuring that the memorial that they worked so hard to get placed in the bay, overlooking the sea where so many of them worked for all those years, can now stay where it is.
Gwnaeth sawl Aelod gyfraniadau ardderchog wrth groesawu’r adeilad newydd, felly ni wnaf afradu amser drwy ailadrodd y pwyntiau hynny. Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar fater bach ond pwysig. Croesawaf y ffaith fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi sicrhau, yn ei drafodaethau gyda thîm y prosiect, y gall Cofeb y Masnachlongwr aros yn ei safle gwreiddiol. Yr oedd llawer o bryder a siom ymhlith Cymdeithas y Masnachlongwr pan ddangosodd y dyluniad gwreiddiol y gallai fod angen symud y gofeb. Cyflwynodd Mr Bill Henke, yn arbennig, sylwadau i mi a’r Prif Ysgrifennydd, a gwn y byddai ef, aelodau Cymdeithas y Masnachlongwr a’u teuluoedd yn dymuno imi drosglwyddo’u diolch diffuant i Alun Michael am sicrhau y gall y gofeb, y gweithiwyd mor galed i’w chael yn y bae, yn edrych dros y môr lle gweithiodd cynifer ohonynt am yr holl flynyddoedd, bellach aros lle y mae.
I add my voice to those that have highlighted the Conservatives’ hypocrisy on these matters and I reinforce that message with a few facts. The point repeatedly made about the Thatcher Governments, that they knew the price of everything but the value of nothing, certainly applies to the Assembly Conservatives in this debate. All we have heard is cheap posturing and political point scoring, which is a most unedifying spectacle to witness. It is time that they reflected on their attitude.
Ychwanegaf innau fy llais at y rheini a bwysleisiodd ragrith y Ceidwadwyr yn y materion hyn, ac atgyfnerthaf y neges honno gydag ychydig ffeithiau. Mae’r pwynt a wnaed dro ar ôl tro am Lywodraethau Thatcher, sef eu bod yn gwybod pris popeth ond heb wybod gwerth dim, yn sicr yn wir am Geidwadwyr y Cynulliad yn y ddadl hon. Y cwbl a glywsom yw ymhonni rhad a sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol, sydd yn olygfa ddigon annymunol. Mae’n bryd iddynt feddwl eto ynglŷn â’u hagwedd.
People have said that the new building will be symbolic of the new Wales and will send powerful messages to the world. That is absolutely right. They will be messages about a new self-confidence, a new, young Wales with international standing and will have obvious economic, tourism, social and cultural benefits. It is a great shame that not everybody here can accept and appreciate that. The Conservatives should rise above the cheap opportunities for populist rhetoric which they have indulged in today, and engage in a serious debate about what should be considered to be serious issues.
Dywedwyd y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn symbol o’r Gymru newydd ac yn anfon negeseuon cryf i’r byd. Mae hynny’n berffaith gywir. Negeseuon fyddant am hunan-hyder newydd, am Gymru ifanc, newydd a chanddi statws rhyngwladol, a bydd iddynt fanteision economaidd, twristaidd, cymdeithasol a diwylliannol amlwg. Mae’n resyn mawr na all pawb yma dderbyn a gwerthfawrogi hynny. Dylai’r Ceidwadwyr godi uwchlaw’r cyfleoedd rhad i arfer y rhethreg bopiwlistaidd a arddelwyd ganddynt heddiw, a chyfrannu at drafodaeth ddifrifol ar faterion y dylid eu hystyried yn rhai difrifol.
I add a couple of points to what Cynog very effectively said, by way of comparison with Westminster. The last Conservative Government initiated a new British Embassy building in Moscow at a cost of £81 million, and we all remember that John Redwood tried to send £100 million back to the Treasury. The Conservatives would like to forget that, but it will take an awful long time for the people of Wales to let them forget it.
Ychwanegaf ychydig bwyntiau at yr hyn a ddywedodd Cynog yn effeithiol iawn, o ran cymharu â San Steffan. Cychwynnodd y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf adeilad newydd i Lysgenhadaeth Prydain ym Moscow, ar gost o £81 miliwn, ac mae pawb yn cofio fod John Redwood wedi ceisio anfon £100 miliwn yn ôl i’r Trysorlys. Hoffai’r Ceidwadwyr anghofio hynny, ond fe gymer amser hir iawn i bobl Cymru adael iddynt ei anghofio.
Has John Griffiths discussed this issue of John Redwood sending money back with the Finance Secretary? He needs to be accurate when he makes a statement like that in this Chamber.
A yw John Griffiths wedi trafod mater John Redwood yn anfon arian yn ôl gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid? Mae angen iddo fod yn gywir pan wna ddatganiad fel yna yn y Siambr hon.
I appreciate the need for accuracy, which is why I said ‘tried to send £100 million back to the Treasury’. That is my understanding of the situation. It was widely reported at the time and I did not hear it challenged by John Redwood. In the Assembly, the Conservatives attempt to portray themselves as custodians of the public purse while continuing to waste a great deal of public money by asking ridiculous questions. I reinforce the points made by a few AMs already on this. The Conservatives seem to have lost the plot. They tabled 88 written questions in one day costing the taxpayer around £10,000. By the middle of December, the cost of answering Conservative questions had reached £150,000. No doubt it has moved on substantially since then. We have had examples of ridiculous questions, such as the potty question that David asked about the potted plant.
Sylweddolaf yr angen am gywirdeb, a dyna pam y dywedais ‘wedi ceisio anfon £100 miliwn yn ôl i’r Trysorlys’. Dyna fy nealltwriaeth i o’r sefyllfa. Bu adroddiadau helaeth amdano ar y pryd ac ni chlywais John Redwood yn ei herio. Yn y Cynulliad, mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn ceisio portreadu’u hunain fel ceidwaid y pwrs cyhoeddus tra’u bod yn parhau i wastraffu llawer iawn o arian cyhoeddus drwy ofyn cwestiynau chwerthinllyd. Ategaf y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan sawl AC yn barod ar hyn. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr fel petaent wedi colli’r plot. Cyflwynwyd 88 o gwestiynau ysgrifenedig ganddynt mewn un diwrnod ar gost o ryw £10,000 i’r trethdalwr. Erbyn canol mis Rhagfyr, yr oedd y gost o ateb cwestiynau’r Ceidwadwyr wedi cyrraedd £150,000. Mae’n siŵr ei fod wedi codi’n sylweddol ers hynny. Cawsom enghreifftiau o gwestiynau chwerthinllyd, fel y cwestiwn pitw gan David am y planhigion mewn pot.
I make three simple points. First, as I ascertained when I spoke to Edwina Hart about the cost of questions, it is not possible to determine how much individual questions cost and that particular one would not have cost much money. Secondly, we have asked a lot of questions because we believe that as an opposition we should put the Executive under scrutiny. We are doing our job. Thirdly, we hardly see any questions from the Labour Members, because they do not want to scrutinise their Executive; they are too controlled by the whips. I would far rather ask questions about potted plants than ask planted questions.
Gwnaf dri phwynt syml. Yn gyntaf, fel y cefais wybod pan siaradais ag Edwina Hart ynglŷn â chost cwestiynau, nid yw’n bosibl pennu faint y mae cwestiynau unigol yn eu costio ac ni fyddai’r un penodol hwnnw wedi costio llawer o arian. Yn ail, yr ydym wedi gofyn llawer o gwestiynau am ein bod yn credu y dylem fel gwrthblaid gadw llygad barcud ar yr Adran Weithredol. Gwneud ein dyletswydd yr ydym ni. Yn drydydd, ni welwn nemor ddim cwestiynau gan yr Aelodau Llafur, am nad oes arnynt eisiau archwilio’u Gweithrediaeth; maent ormod dan reolaeth y chwipiaid. Byddai’n llawer iawn gwell gennyf ofyn cwestiynau am blanhigion mewn potiau na gofyn cwestiynau wedi’u plannu.
It is quality, not quantity, that counts, David. You should appreciate that. This is an important issue. We all recognise that Assembly Members must ask questions. That is part of their task in fulfilling their democratic role, but they must do so responsibly, and that is what the Conservatives fail to do. Much of the information that you have garnered from asking questions is readily available via the Library, for example. Glyn Davies has said that being an Assembly Member is not a full-time job; perhaps you could give him some sort of research duty? He could obtain that information for you and save the taxpayers money.
Ansawdd, nid nifer, sydd yn bwysig, David. Dylech sylweddoli hynny. Mae hwn yn fater pwysig. Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod fod yn rhaid i Aelodau Cynulliad ofyn cwestiynau. Mae hynny’n rhan o’u gwaith wrth gyflawni eu rôl ddemocrataidd, ond rhaid iddynt wneud hynny’n gyfrifol, a dyna beth y mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn methu â’i wneud. Mae llawer o’r wybodaeth a gawsoch drwy ofyn cwestiynau ar gael i bawb drwy’r Llyfrgell, er enghraifft. Dywedodd Glyn Davies nad yw bod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn swydd amser llawn; efallai y gallech roi rhyw fath o ddyletswydd ymchwil iddo? Gallai gael y wybodaeth honno ichi ac arbed arian i’r trethdalwyr.
Assembly Members should not say things that are untrue in this Chamber. I most certainly did not say that, and what is more, I explained what I said in the Chamber, so the speaker knows it is not true. It demeans this Chamber when people say things that they know to be untrue.
Ni ddylai Aelodau’r Cynulliad ddweud anwiredd yn y Siambr hon. Yn sicr ddigon, ni ddywedais hynny, ac yn fwy na hynny, eglurais yr hyn a ddywedais yn y Siambr, felly mae’r siaradwr yn gwybod nad yw’n wir. Mae’n iselhau’r Siambr hon pan fydd pobl yn dweud pethau y gwyddant eu bod yn anwir.
I did not say anything that I know to be untrue, Glyn. My recollection is that you considered an Assembly Member’s role not to be a full-time one. That is my understanding of what you said. If I did not think that was the case, I would not have said it. I reinforce the fact that I consider it sheer nauseating hypocrisy that the Conservatives constantly set themselves up as guardians of the public purse and yet they continue to squander public money by asking unnecessary questions.
Ni ddywedais unrhyw beth y gwn ei fod yn anwir, Glyn. Fy nghof i yw eich bod o’r farn nad oedd rôl Aelod Cynulliad yn un lawn-amser. Dyna fy nealltwriaeth i o’r hyn a ddywedasoch. Pe na bawn wedi meddwl hynny, ni fyddwn wedi ei ddweud. Ategaf eto fy mod o’r farn mai rhagrith atgas noeth yw fod y Ceidwadwyr yn gyson yn ymhonni fel gwarcheidwaid y pwrs cyhoeddus ac eto eu bod yn dal i afradu arian cyhoeddus drwy ofyn cwestiynau diangen.
I bring a north Wales perspective to this debate. There is a widely held perception among many people in the north that the Assembly is not for them. There is a perception that this is a Cardiff institution dominated by south Walian Assembly Members. I do not ask for a showpiece £20 million building in the north, nor do I ask for an alternative debating chamber—although it would be nice if we could have a Plenary session in the north—but we need a modest, physical, public presence for the Assembly somewhere in north Wales. It would be an information point and a place where members of the public could use video-conferencing to contact their Assembly Members. It could be a place where Committees rather than Plenary meet; it is important that Subject Committees do not always meet in this building. It could be a place where Members could make contributions from north Wales. If we were imaginative in the use of information and communications technology, it could even be a place from which Members vote.
Dof â safbwynt gogledd Cymru i’r ddadl hon. Mae barn weddol gyffredin ymhlith llawer o ogleddwyr nad rhywbeth iddynt hwy yw’r Cynulliad. Ceir tybiaeth mai sefydliad Caerdydd yw hwn dan reolaeth Aelodau Cynulliad o’r de. Nid wyf yn gofyn am adeilad arbennig £20 miliwn yn y gogledd, nac yn gofyn am siambr ddadlau arall—er y byddai’n braf cael Cyfarfod Llawn yn y gogledd—ond mae arnom angen presenoldeb dirodres, cyhoeddus corfforol i’r Cynulliad yn rhywle yng ngogledd Cymru. Byddai’n fan gwybodaeth ac yn fan lle gallai aelodau’r cyhoedd ddefnyddio fideo-gynadledda i gysylltu â’u Haelodau Cynulliad. Gallai fod yn fan lle byddai Pwyllgorau yn hytrach na’r Cyfarfod llawn yn cyfarfod; mae’n bwysig i Bwyllgorau Pwnc beidio â chyfarfod yn yr adeilad hwn bob tro. Gallai fod yn fan lle gallai Aelodau wneud cyfraniadau o ogledd Cymru. Pe baem yn defnyddio technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu mewn modd dychmygus, gallai hyd yn oed fod yn fan lle gallai Aelodau fwrw pleidlais.
Finally, I will make some points about the new Assembly building. The new building will have an expanded public gallery. I welcome that. However, most people will see the Assembly through the medium of television. The camera angles for television are all wrong in this Chamber. They are even worse for Committee meetings. I suggest that early on in the detailed design stage considerable attention be paid to designing camera angles, rather than simply bolting cameras onto the ceilings.
Yn olaf, gwnaf rai pwyntiau ynglŷn ag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Bydd gan yr adeilad newydd oriel gyhoeddus fwy. Croesawaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn gweld y Cynulliad drwy gyfrwng y teledu. Mae’r onglau camera ar gyfer y teledu i gyd yn anghywir yn y Siambr hon. Maent hyd yn oed yn waeth mewn cyfarfodydd Pwyllgor. Awgrymaf y dylid rhoi cryn sylw yn gynnar yn y broses ddylunio manwl i gynllunio onglau camera, yn hytrach na dim ond bolltio camerâu ar y nenfwd.
I did not plan to speak in this debate. However, because of the way the debate has been conducted, and because of the attacks made against the Conservative Party, I feel it is incumbent upon me to try to correct what has been said in the interests of democracy—and as Glyn Davies has just reminded me—in the interests of truth.
Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd y ffordd y cynhaliwyd y ddadl, ac oherwydd yr ymosodiadau a wnaethpwyd yn erbyn y Blaid Geidwadol, teimlaf ei bod yn rheidrwydd arnaf geisio cywiro’r hyn a ddywedwyd er lles democratiaeth—ac fel y mae Glyn Davies newydd f’atgoffa—er mwyn y gwirionedd.
Last May, we accepted that an enormous amount of responsibility has been placed on us by devolution. We have been allocated a block grant of £8 billion to spend to the best effect in Wales. Many of us were elected on manifestos of reducing waiting lists, reducing class sizes, creating a more efficient health service and a prosperous economy. Therefore, I ask every member in the Chamber whether spending £23 million on a purpose-built palace in the car park next door is an effective use of resources. When you receive letters from constituents saying that the waiting list for their heart operation has been extended or that the operation has been cancelled, when you consider the recent flu virus that caused enormous pressures on the health service and when you receive letters from parents about class sizes getting bigger, ask yourself whether the expenditure of £23 million is effective use of our resources.
Fis Mai diwethaf, derbyniasom fod cyfrifoldeb mawr wedi’i osod arnom gan ddatganoli. Dyrannwyd grant bloc o £8 biliwn inni i’w wario er y budd gorau yng Nghymru. Etholwyd llawer ohonom ar faniffestos o leihau rhestrau aros, lleihau maint dosbarthiadau, creu gwasanaeth iechyd mwy effeithlon ac economi ffyniannus. Felly, gofynnaf i bob aelod yn y Siambr a ydyw gwario £23 miliwn ar balas pwrpasol yn y maes parcio drws nesaf yn ddefnydd effeithlon ar adnoddau. Pan dderbyniwch lythyrau oddi wrth etholwyr yn dweud fod y rhestr aros ar gyfer eu llawdriniaeth ar y galon wedi tyfu neu fod y llawdriniaeth wedi’i gohirio, pan ystyriwch y firws ffliw diweddar a roddodd bwysau anferthol ar y gwasanaeth iechyd a phan dderbyniwch lythyrau oddi wrth rieni ynglŷn â thwf ym maint dosbarthiadau, holwch eich hun a ydyw’r gwariant o £23 miliwn yn ddefnydd effeithlon o’n hadnoddau.
On one hand, John Griffiths accused my colleague of believing that being an Assembly Member is not a full-time job. That is a total misrepresentation of what Glyn is reported in the press to have said. On the other hand, John Griffiths highlighted the fact that a colleague of mine tabled 88 questions in one day. If that is not a full-time job, I do not know what is. There is no coherence in the argument. We have been accused today of being hypocritical and populist. Is it not hypocritical to spend £23 million when we have rising waiting lists? Is it not hypocritical to spend £23 million on a fishbowl—as the new building has been described by many journalists—when we have rising class sizes?
Ar y naill law, cyhuddodd John Griffiths fy nghyd-Aelod o gredu nad yw bod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn swydd amser llawn. Mae hynny’n gamliwio dybryd ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Glyn fel y’i hadroddwyd yn y wasg. Ar y llaw arall, tynnodd John Griffiths sylw at y ffaith fod un o’m cyd-Aelodau wedi cyflwyno 88 o gwestiynau mewn un diwrnod. Os nad yw hynny’n swydd amser llawn, ni wn i beth sydd. Nid oes cysondeb yn y ddadl. Cyhuddwyd ni heddiw o ragrith a phopiwlistiaeth. Onid rhagrith yw gwario £23 miliwn pan fo gennym restrau aros sydd yn tyfu? Onid rhagrith yw gwario £23 miliwn ar bowlen bysgod—fel y disgrifiwyd yr adeilad newydd gan lawer o newyddiadurwyr—tra bod meintiau dosbarthiadau ar gynnydd?
Talking of hypocrisy and double standards, Alun, I invite you to take this opportunity to dissociate yourself from your colleagues in Westminster and their enthusiastic support for the ludicrously extravagant spending that Cynog has outlined for us this afternoon. None of you have done that yet. Gentlemen, you cannot have it both ways.
O sôn am ragrith a safonau dwbl, Alun, fe’ch gwahoddaf i gymryd y cyfle hwn i ddatgysylltu’ch hun oddi wrth eich cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan a’u cefnogaeth frwd i’r gwariant gwrthun o afradlon a amlinellodd Cynog inni y prynhawn yma. Nid oes neb ohonoch wedi gwneud hynny eto. Foneddigion, ni allwch ei chael hi bob ffordd.
I said at the beginning of this speech that we accepted our responsibility to the devolution process as Assembly Members. The Welsh Conservative Party concerns itself with decisions for which it has a mandate in this Chamber, not for things elsewhere. This debate must be about the £23 million that has already been spent on the car park next door even before a brick has been laid or a pane of glass has been fitted. The figure is £23 million now and I would be surprised if we get change from £40 million or £50 million at the end of the project.
Dywedais ar ddechrau’r araith hon ein bod yn derbyn ein cyfrifoldeb i’r broses ddatganoli fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mae’r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig yn ymboeni â phenderfyniadau y mae ganddi fandad ar eu cyfer yn y Siambr hon, nid â phethau mewn mannau eraill. Rhaid i’r ddadl hon fod ynglŷn â’r £23 miliwn a wariwyd eisoes ar y maes parcio drws nesaf hyd yn oed cyn i fricsen na chwarel o wydr gael ei gosod. Mae’r ffigur yn £23 miliwn yn awr a byddaf yn synnu os cawn newid o £40 miliwn neu £50 miliwn erbyn diwedd y prosiect.
John Griffiths made a point about political point scoring and our populist approach. If that is the case, it indicates that the views of the public are firmly behind our argument. If we took a poll outside or asked members of the public who are sitting in the public gallery whether we should spend £23 million on the new building in the car park or on the health service, I am confident that they would support our view. We are debating legroom and additional space. However, this is about spending £23 million on a new building. It is not an advert for a Renault Espace.
Gwnaeth John Griffiths bwynt ynglŷn â sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol a’n bod yn bopiwlistaidd. Os yw hynny’n wir, mae’n dangos fod y farn gyhoeddus yn gadarn y tu cefn i’n dadl ni. Pe baem yn cymryd pleidlais y tu allan neu pe baem yn gofyn i aelodau’r cyhoedd sydd yn eistedd yn yr oriel gyhoeddus a ddylem wario £23 miliwn ar yr adeilad newydd yn y maes parcio ynteu ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, yr wyf yn hyderus y byddent yn cefnogi’n safbwynt ni. Yr ydym yn trafod lle i goesau a mwy o ofod. Fodd bynnag, dadl am wario £23 miliwn ar adeilad newydd yw hon, nid hysbyseb am Renault Espace.
I was glad that Glyn Davies raised the question about the alleged handing back of money to Westminster by the former Secretary of State. That matter has been cleared up. Those accusations have been thrown back and forth time and time again. Let us clear the issue. I have said many times in this speech alone that we accept our responsibility as Assembly Members. If Assembly Members accept that responsibility, they should not throw wild and inaccurate comments back and forth about that genuinely populist attitude.
Yr wyf yn falch fod Glyn Davies wedi codi’r cwestiwn am yr honiad ynglŷn â’r cyn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn rhoi arian yn ôl i San Steffan. Cliriwyd y mater hwnnw. Mae’r cyhuddiadau hynny wedi’u taflu’n ôl a blaen dro ar ôl tro. Gadewch inni glirio’r mater. Yr wyf wedi dweud sawl gwaith yn yr araith hon yn unig ein bod yn derbyn ein cyfrifoldeb fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Os derbynia Aelodau’r Cynulliad y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw, ni ddylent daflu sylwadau gwyllt ac anghywir yn ôl a blaen ynglŷn â’r agwedd wirioneddol bopiwlistaidd honno.
Alun is probably right that if we took a straw poll of people’s opinion on the millennium stadium before it was built and while it was being built, we would have had the same result. If that poll was taken now, you would see the difference between political leadership and responsibility and saloon bar politics.
Mae’n debyg fod Alun yn iawn pe baem yn cynnal pôl gwelltyn o farn pobl ar stadiwm y mileniwm cyn ei hadeiladu a thra’i bod wrthi’n cael ei hadeiladu, y buasem wedi cael yr un canlyniad. Pe cymerid y pôl hwnnw yn awr, fe welech y gwahaniaeth rhwng arweiniad a chyfrifoldeb gwleidyddol a gwleidyddiaeth tŷ tafarn.
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 73
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh and English p. 73
Diolch yn fawr. Yr oedd hwnnw’n bwynt da. Rhaid inni edrych i’r dyfodol yn hytrach nag aros yn y presennol.
in Welsh Thank you. That was a good point. We must look to the future rather than stay in the present.
It is difficult to debate this issue constructively, but we have done so this afternoon. Most speakers mentioned the design and our hopes and aspirations just as they did in constructive exchanges with the architect last week. That was an exciting session. I regret that the Conservatives have gone for a quick headline. They will be condemned by history for a lack of vision. Alun Cairns has not been attacked this afternoon; he has been gently chided by people who are saddened by his attitude.
yn Saesneg Mae’n anodd trafod y mater hwn yn adeiladol, ond yr ydym wedi gwneud hynny y prynhawn yma. Soniodd y rhan fwyaf o siaradwyr am y dyluniad a’n gobeithion a’n dyheadau yn union fel y gwnaethant mewn trafodaeth adeiladol gyda’r pensaer yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd honno’n sesiwn gyffrous. Yr wyf yn gresynu bod y Ceidwadwyr wedi mynd am bennawd cyflym. Cânt eu collfarnu gan hanes am ddiffyg gweledigaeth. Nid ymosod ar Alun Cairns a wnaethpwyd y prynhawn yma; dywedwyd y drefn wrtho’n garedig gan bobl sydd yn tristáu oherwydd ei agwedd.
At 3:02 p.m. today, Nick Bourne e-mailed me to say that the Conservatives would not play a part in the new building project. Now we know where we stand. The rest of us can get on with the job. Our budget allows for this project and the building was envisaged as part of the project as far back as the legislation. Our job is to get value for money, to control costs and, at the same time, to make it a landmark building.
yn Saesneg Am 3:02 p.m. heddiw, cefais e-bost oddi wrth Nick Bourne i ddweud na fyddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn chwarae rhan ym mhrosiect yr adeilad newydd. Bellach dyma ni’n gwybod ym mhle yr ydym yn sefyll. Gall y gweddill ohonom fynd ati gyda’r gwaith. Mae’n cyllideb ni’n caniatáu ar gyfer y prosiect hwn a rhagwelwyd yr adeilad fel rhan o’r prosiect mor bell yn ôl â’r ddeddfwriaeth. Ein gwaith ni yw sicrhau gwerth am arian, rheoli costau ac, ar yr un pryd, ei wneud yn adeilad o bwys.
In response to Alun Cairns’s synthetic anger over questions: asking silly questions or ones where the information is already available, is not just hypocritical and populist; it is a waste of the time of the officials who are here to serve the whole Assembly, and it is downright lazy. The Conservatives’ decision will tell history, our children and grandchildren that today’s Conservative Party has no more confidence in our future and economy than they had in democracy in Wales during the debate on devolution.
yn Saesneg Mewn ymateb i ddicter synthetig Alun Cairns ynghylch cwestiynau: mae gofyn cwestiynau gwirion neu rai lle mae’r wybodaeth eisoes ar gael nid yn unig yn rhagrithiol a phopiwlistaidd; mae’n wastraff ar amser y swyddogion sydd yma i wasanaethu’r Cynulliad cyfan, ac mae’n hollol ddiog. Bydd penderfyniad y Ceidwadwyr yn dweud wrth hanes, wrth ein plant a phlant ein plant nad oes gan y Blaid Geidwadol heddiw ddim mwy o hyder yn ein dyfodol a’n heconomi nag a oedd ganddynt mewn democratiaeth yng Nghymru yn ystod y ddadl ar ddatganoli.
You could also conclude that our vision of having the Assembly in City Hall was denied to us and the people of Wales because of the failure of senior members of the Labour Party to agree, despite the complete consensus in the political world that if we were to have an Assembly, that is where it should be.
Gallech hefyd ddod i’r casgliad y gwadwyd i ni a phobl Cymru ein gweledigaeth o gael y Cynulliad yn Neuadd y Ddinas oherwydd methiant aelodau uchel yn y Blaid Lafur i gytuno, er gwaethaf y consensws llwyr yn y byd gwleidyddol mai yno y dylai’r Cynulliad fod os oeddem i gael un.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 74
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
That was a nice try, David, but incorrect. The cost of going to City Hall would have been greater. When I became Secretary of State for Wales, one of the first things I did was scrutinise that decision and I am quite satisfied about that.
Ymgais dda, David, ond anghywir. Buasai’r gost o fynd i Neuadd y Ddinas yn uwch. Pan ddeuthum yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, un o’r pethau cyntaf a wneuthum oedd archwilio’r penderfyniad hwnnw ac yr wyf yn gwbl fodlon ynglŷn â hynny.
Alison Halford asked whether too little attention had been paid to disability at an early stage of the process. That is not the case. In a competition, you start with a design concept, so at that point, the design is not fully worked through. The architects said that they were confident that all the envisaged problems relating to disability and access could be overcome and they have justified that by presenting this design. I am satisfied that the problem can be resolved. Alison also referred to the number of seats. The Chamber will be designed to seat 60 but it could be extended to seat 80, if there was a decision on that in the future. The number can stay at 60; there is no pre-emptive decision for the future.
Gofynnodd Alison Halford a oedd prinder sylw wedi’i roi i anabledd yng nghyfnod cynnar y broses. Nid felly y bu. Mewn cystadleuaeth, dechreuir gyda’r cysyniad dylunio, felly ar y pwynt hwnnw, nid yw’r dyluniad wedi’i weithio drwodd yn llawn. Dywedodd y penseiri eu bod yn hyderus y gellid goresgyn yr holl broblemau a ragwelid gydag anabledd a mynediad, ac y maent wedi cyfiawnhau hynny drwy gyflwyno’r dyluniad hwn. Yr wyf yn fodlon y gellir datrys y broblem. Cyfeiriodd Alison hefyd at nifer y seddi. Caiff y Siambr ei dylunio i ddal 60 ond gellid ei ymestyn i fod yn Siambr i 80 pe penderfynid hynny yn y dyfodol. Gall y nifer aros yn 60; nid oes penderfyniad wedi’i wneud ar gyfer y dyfodol.
David Davies returned to one of his favourite topics: seagulls. It is important that people understand the designs. They have been in the building for people to scrutinise and a full briefing was held on the project. The roof, which is not glass, will extend over the glass walls. Therefore, they will be protected. That is an essential element in the design. In answer to Mike German, the building cost corrections resulted from careful work, and the quantity surveyor’s work and the costing details have now been completed. I confirm that that cost is allowed for in the budget.
Aeth David Davies yn ôl at un o’i hoff bynciau: gwylanod. Mae’n bwysig fod pobl yn deall y cynlluniau. Buont yn yr adeilad i bobl eu harchwilio a chynhaliwyd cyfarfod briffio llawn ar y prosiect. Bydd y to, sydd ddim yn wydr, yn ymestyn dros y waliau gwydr. Felly, byddant wedi’u gwarchod. Mae hynny’n elfen hanfodol yn y dyluniad. I ateb Mike German, deilliodd y cywiriadau i’r costau adeiladu o waith gofalus, ac mae gwaith y maintfesurwr a’r manylion costio bellach wedi’u cwblhau. Yr wyf yn cadarnhau y darparwyd ar gyfer y gost honno yn y gyllideb.
Helen Mary and Mick Bates referred to environmental issues and I am pleased that they underlined their importance. The brief to the architect was to make this a landmark building not only in terms of image but also in terms of environmental considerations and costs. As time goes on and people engage with the way the architects develop the design, there is an appropriate element of excitement. It is sad to hear Alun Cairns rubbishing photovoltaic cells as if they were expensive rubbish. It is in fact using modern science within the developing industries in Wales. The Baglan energy park is a good example of the use of that technology, and of saying, ‘here is the future, let us think about it, and make it a part of our industries in Wales’. We should aspire to have that vision as part of this building, and have renewable energy as part of the design.
Cyfeiriodd Helen Mary a Mick Bates at faterion amgylcheddol ac yr wyf yn falch eu bod wedi tanlinellu eu pwysigrwydd. Y brîff i’r pensaer oedd gwneud hwn yn adeilad arloesol nid yn unig yn nhermau delwedd ond hefyd yn nhermau ystyriaethau amgylcheddol a chostau. Gyda threigl amser wrth i bobl ymateb i’r ffordd y mae’r penseiri’n datblygu’r dyluniad, ceir elfen briodol o gynnwrf. Trist yw clywed Alun Cairns yn wfftio celloedd ffotofoltäig fel pe baent yn sbwriel drud. Mewn gwirionedd, dyma enghraifft o ddefnyddio gwyddoniaeth fodern o fewn y diwydiannau sydd yn datblygu yng Nghymru. Mae parc ynni Baglan yn enghraifft dda o ddefnyddio’r dechnoleg honno, ac o ddweud, ‘dyma’r dyfodol, dewch inni feddwl amdano, a’i wneud yn rhan o’n diwydiannau yng Nghymru’. Dylem anelu at gael y weledigaeth honno’n rhan o’r adeilad hwn, a chael ynni adnewyddadwy fel rhan o’r dyluniad.
Mick said that we should involve people throughout Wales and he is right. We can do this not only by means of the six briefings where the architect will be accessible to the public, but by means of the internet through which people can be kept up to date, and can see the progress of the design and building. Helen Mary Jones raised some environmental issues, which I will pick up some other time. However, the environment of Cardiff Bay is such that there will be wind tunnel tests to examine the effects of the wind and the rain, that, as a resident of the area, I have witnessed over the years. The architects have been looking at ensuring that the building is appropriate to its environment, not only when the sun is out, but when the wind is whipping up the waters and sleet is coming around Penarth headland.
Dywedodd Mick y dylem gynnwys pobl o bob cwr o Gymru, ac mae’n iawn. Gallwn wneud hyn nid yn unig drwy gyfrwng y chwe chyfarfod briffio lle y bydd y pensaer ar gael i’r cyhoedd, ond drwy gyfrwng y rhyngrwyd lle gall pobl gael y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf, a gweld hynt y dyluniad a’r gwaith adeiladu. Cododd Helen Mary Jones rai materion amgylcheddol, a atebaf rywbryd eto. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd amgylchedd Bae Caerdydd, cynhelir profion twneli gwynt i archwilio effeithiau’r gwynt a’r glaw a welais i dros y blynyddoedd fel un o drigolion yr ardal. Mae’r penseiri wedi bod yn edrych ar sicrhau bod yr adeilad yn briodol i’w amgylchedd, nid yn unig pan fo’r haul yn tywynnu, ond pan fo’r gwynt yn chwipio’r dyfroedd a’r cesair yn dod o amgylch pentir Penarth.
An element of 1 per cent has been included for artwork. A building should be designed not only to include quality materials, but artwork and, where possible, it should bring art that would not otherwise be on display into a public environment. That is what we have done in our current building. We have asked the architects to consider the display of art in their design.
Cynhwyswyd elfen o 1 y cant ar gyfer gwaith celf. Dylai adeilad gael ei ddylunio nid yn unig i gynnwys defnyddiau o ansawdd da, ond hefyd waith celf a, lle bo modd, dylai ddod â chelf na fyddai’n cael ei arddangos fel arfer i mewn i amgylchedd cyhoeddus. Dyna beth yr ydym wedi’i wneud yn ein hadeilad presennol. Yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r penseiri ystyried arddangosiad celf yn eu dyluniad.
As Alun Pugh commented, this must be a building that is in Cardiff Bay but is for the whole of Wales. It is not necessarily seen that way now, but it is up to us to ensure that it will be. The Assembly, in terms of us as people, and as a building, must be a powerhouse for Wales. I do not think that it is a question of having alternative buildings elsewhere but of having video-conferencing, for example, in each local authority building in Wales and in our own buildings, so that people in every part of Wales have access to us through technology—perhaps through schools, colleges and libraries also. The geography of Wales will always be a problem. As those of us who travel frequently between north and south know, it will always be a difficult journey whatever improvements are made. However, those difficulties can be overcome by the use of new technology and imagination.
Fel y dywedodd Alun Pugh, rhaid i hwn fod yn adeilad sydd ym Mae Caerdydd ond sydd ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. Nid yw’n cael ei weld fel yna o reidrwydd yn awr, ond rhaid i ni sicrhau mai felly y bydd. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad, o’n rhan ni fel pobl, ac fel adeilad, fod yn bwerdy i Gymru. Nid wyf yn meddwl mai cwestiwn ydyw o gael gwahanol adeiladau mewn mannau eraill, ond o gael fideo-gynadledda, er enghraifft, ym mhob adeilad awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru ac yn ein hadeiladau ni, fel y gall pobl ym mhob rhan o Gymru gael mynediad atom drwy gyfrwng technoleg—efallai drwy ysgolion, colegau a llyfrgelloedd hefyd. Bydd daearyddiaeth Cymru bob amser yn broblem. Fel y gŵyr y rheini ohonom sydd yn teithio’n aml rhwng gogledd a de, bydd yn siwrnai anodd o hyd, pa welliannau bynnag a wneir. Fodd bynnag, gellir goresgyn yr anawsterau hynny drwy ddefnyddio technoleg newydd a dychymyg.
I agree that the design of the Chamber should take into account camera angles and such elements early on, so that they are designed in, in a way that is not intrusive but gives access to the outside world without the Chamber feeling like a television studio. This is certainly in the minds of the architects as it was in the minds of our group when we met. The architects are meeting with the host broadcaster and other experts to try to ensure that they get that right.
Cytunaf y dylai cynllun y Siambr gymryd i ystyriaeth onglau camera ac elfennau o’r fath yn gynnar, fel eu bod yn cael eu dylunio i mewn, mewn ffordd anymwthiol sydd yn rhoi mynediad i’r byd oddi allan heb i’r Siambr deimlo fel stiwdio deledu. Mae hyn yn sicr ym meddyliau’r penseiri fel yr oedd ym meddyliau’n grŵp ni pan gyfarfuom. Mae’r penseiri’n cwrdd â’r darlledwr ac arbenigwyr eraill er mwyn ceisio sicrhau y gwneir hyn yn iawn.
We now need to go firm on this outline design, and allow the project team and the architect to reach the milestone of progressing the design to the planning application stage. That is in line with the programme, and at that point, we will be able to fix all the elements in this project. The appropriate management structure is now in place. We have the means at our disposal to keep effective downward pressure on costs—and I refer to the systems as well as to the Finance Secretary—while ensuring that both time and quality are not adversely affected. We need to try not to impose or allow any further changes to the design once we have fixed each element.
Mae angen yn awr inni fynd yn gadarn ar y cynllun amlinellol hwn, a chaniatáu i dîm y prosiect a’r pensaer gyrraedd y garreg filltir o symud y cynllun ymlaen at gam y cais cynllunio. Mae hynny’n unol â’r rhaglen, a bryd hynny byddwn yn gallu sefydlu’r holl elfennau yn y prosiect hwn. Mae’r strwythur rheoli priodol bellach yn ei le. Mae gennym y modd i wasgu i lawr yn effeithiol ar gostau—ac yr wyf yn cyfeirio at y systemau yn ogystal ag at yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid—tra’n sicrhau na cheir effaith andwyol ar amser nac ansawdd. Mae angen inni geisio peidio â gorfodi na chaniatáu unrhyw newidiadau pellach i’r cynllun unwaith y byddwn wedi sefydlu pob elfen.
Much time and effort has already been invested in progressing the design to the point at which I, the policy steering group and the project board feel able to recommend that we proceed with confidence to the next stage, which is the approval of the outline scheme design. I hope that the Assembly will give its wholehearted support to the new building project, and authorise those involved to get on with the task of developing the design and constructing the needed new Assembly building with its improved public facilities, debating chamber and Committee rooms. We must accept our responsibility in the next two years to build an Assembly team of landmark standards. We have to be as good as we want our building to be: we have to be ambitious for the economy, in our architecture, in our own behaviour and actions and for Wales.
Buddsoddwyd llawer o amser ac ymdrech i symud y dyluniad ymlaen i’r pwynt lle gallaf i, y grŵp llywio polisi a bwrdd y prosiect deimlo’n abl i argymell ein bod yn mynd ymlaen gyda hyder i’r cam nesaf, sef cymeradwyo’r dyluniad cynllun amlinellol. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Cynulliad roi ei gefnogaeth galonogol i’r prosiect adeilad newydd, ac awdurdodi’r rhai sydd a wnelont ag ef i fynd ati gyda’r gwaith o ddatblygu’r dyluniad ac adeiladu’r adeilad newydd angenrheidiol i’r Cynulliad gyda’i well cyfleusterau i’r cyhoedd, siambr ddadlau ac ystafelloedd Pwyllgor. Rhaid inni dderbyn ein cyfrifoldeb yn y ddwy flynedd nesaf i adeiladu tîm safonau arloesol yn y Cynulliad. Rhaid i ni fod cystal ag y dymunwn i’n hadeilad fod: rhaid inni fod yn uchelgeisiol o safbwynt yr economi, yn ein pensaernïaeth, yn ein hymddygiad a’n gweithredoedd ein hunain a thros Gymru.
Gwelliant 1 Glyn Davies t. 77
Amendment 1 Glyn Davies p. 77
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 42
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (42)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 Michael German t. 78
Amendment 2 Michael German p. 78
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 3 Helen Mary Jones t. 79
Amendment 3 Helen Mary Jones p. 79
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymgymerwyr Dŵr (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000 a Gorchymyn British Gas ccc (Gwerth Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000 and the British Gas plc (Rateable Value) (Wales) Order 2000
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 81
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 81
Yr wyf wedi cytuno i gymryd cynigion fel un ddadl ynglŷn ag egwyddor y ddau gynnig, ond bydd dwy bleidlais ar wahân ar y Gorchmynion.
I have agreed to take the motions as one debate about the principle of both motions, but there will be separate votes on the Orders.
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 81
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government (continued) spoken in English p. 82
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
I also propose that the Assembly:
Cynigiaf hefyd fod y Cynulliad:
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government (continued) spoken in English p. 82
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
There are two motions before the Assembly this afternoon on the prescription of rateable values. I will speak on both motions together, with each being subject to a separate vote. I am grateful to you for agreeing to proceed on this basis. All business properties in Wales are being revalued as part of the latest five-yearly revaluation which takes effect on 1 April 2000. This provides the rateable values that will be used to calculate the rates businesses should pay. The vast majority of businesses will have their rateable values independently assessed by the Valuation Office Agency. Some, mainly the privatised utilities, will have their rateable values prescribed by the Assembly. Many of them pay their rates to the Assembly rather than to councils.
Mae dau gynnig ger bron y Cynulliad heddiw ar bennu gwerthoedd ardrethol. Siaradaf ar y ddau gynnig gyda’i gilydd, gyda phob un yn destun pleidlais ar wahân. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi am gytuno i weithredu yn y modd hwn. Mae pob eiddo busnes yng Nghymru yn cael eu hailbrisio fel rhan o’r ailbrisiad pum-mlynedd diweddaraf a ddaw i rym ar 1 Ebrill 2000. Mae hyn yn darparu’r gwerthoedd ardrethol a ddefnyddir i gyfrifo faint o drethi y dylai busnesau eu talu. Bydd y mwyafrif llethol o fusnesau’n cael asesu eu gwerthoedd ardrethol yn annibynnol gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio. Bydd rhai, sef y cyfleustodau a breifateiddiwyd yn bennaf, yn cael pennu eu gwerthoedd ardrethol gan y Cynulliad. Bydd llawer ohonynt yn talu eu trethi i’r Cynulliad yn hytrach nag i gynghorau.
When I proposed the motion for the Central Rates and Lists Regulations 1999, which was approved on 14 December, I mentioned that I would be proposing, for the Assembly’s approval, a package of five Orders setting new rateable values for gas, electricity and water companies, the major ports, Railtrack and rail networks in Wales. The draft Orders that I proposed for the Assembly’s approval today prescribe new rateable values for the gas transportation business in Wales—the BG plc, better known as British Gas—and for the four water companies operating in Wales. These figures will be used by the Assembly to calculate each company’s rates bill for 2000-01 and for the following four years. The rates collected are pooled, and the Assembly redistributes them as part of its revenue support for councils and police authorities. The Order should come into force on 1 April. This does not appear in the draft Orders that you have before you today, but it will be clarified in the final text of the audit before they are presented for signature.
Pan roddais y cynnig ger bron ar gyfer Rheoliadau Ardrethi Canolog a Rhestri 1999, a gymeradwywyd ar 14 Rhagfyr, soniais y byddwn yn cynnig, i’w gymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad, becyn o bum Gorchymyn yn gosod gwerthoedd ardrethol newydd ar gyfer cwmnïau nwy, trydan a dŵr, y prif borthladdoedd, Railtrack a’r rhwydweithiau rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Mae’r Gorchmynion drafft a gyflwynaf i’w cymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad heddiw’n pennu gwerthoedd ardrethol newydd ar gyfer y busnes cludo nwy yng Nghymru—BG ccc, a adwaenir yn well fel Nwy Prydain—ac ar gyfer y pedwar cwmni dŵr sydd yn gweithredu yng Nghymru. Defnyddir y ffigurau hyn gan y Cynulliad i gyfrifo bil treth pob cwmni am 2000-01 a’r pedair blynedd dilynol. Caiff y trethi a gesglir eu cronni, a bydd y Cynulliad yn eu hailddosbarthu fel rhan o’i gymorth refeniw i gynghorau ac awdurdodau heddlu. Dylai’r Gorchymyn ddod i rym ar 1 Ebrill. Nid yw hyn yn ymddangos yn y Gorchmynion drafft sydd gennych ger eich bron heddiw, ond fe’i heglurir yn nhestun terfynol yr archwiliad cyn eu cyflwyno i’w llofnodi.
The rateable values contained in the draft orders are based on valuations produced by the Valuation Office Agency. They represent the rental values that the properties could have been expected to fetch on the open market at the valuation date of 1 April 1998. The valuations were carried out on a Great Britain basis for British Gas and on a Wales and England basis for the four water companies. This is because of the cross-border nature of their activities. We had to agree Wales’s share with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the Scottish Executive. Therefore, there is in effect, no scope for the Assembly to fix its own figures on this.
Mae’r gwerthoedd ardrethol a gynhwysir yn y gorchmynion drafft yn seiliedig ar brisiadau a gynhyrchwyd gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio. Maent yn cynrychioli’r gwerthoedd rhent y gallasai’r eiddo ddisgwyl eu cael ar y farchnad agored ar y dyddiad prisio sef 1 Ebrill 1998. Gwnaethpwyd y prisiadau hyn ar sail Prydain Fawr dros Nwy Prydain ac ar sail Cymru a Lloegr ar gyfer y pedwar cwmni dŵr. Natur traws-ffiniol eu gweithgareddau sydd i gyfrif am hyn. Bu raid inni gytuno ar gyfran Cymru gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a Gweithrediaeth yr Alban. Felly, nid oes, mewn effaith, unrhyw gyfle i’r Cynulliad osod ei ffigurau ei hun ar hyn.
Business rate revaluations reflect changes in the property market and have widely different effects in different areas on different types of businesses. Some businesses will see their rateable values and bills rise, while others will see a fall. We can see that the impact of the 2000 revaluation varies considerably between each of the companies. British Gas’s rates bill next year will rise by 11 per cent, whereas Dŵr Cymru, Wales’s largest public water supplier, will enjoy a saving of around 3 per cent on its current rates bill.
Mae ailbrisiadau ardrethi busnes yn adlewyrchu newidiadau yn y farchnad eiddo a chânt effeithiau sydd yn gwahaniaethu’n ddirfawr mewn gwahanol ardaloedd ar wahanol fathau o fusnesau. Bydd rhai busnesau’n gweld eu gwerthoedd ardrethol a’u biliau’n codi, tra bydd eraill yn gweld gostyngiad. Gallwn weld fod effaith ailbrisiad 2000 yn amrywio’n sylweddol rhwng pob cwmni. Bydd bil trethi Nwy Prydain y flwyddyn nesaf yn codi 11 y cant, tra bydd Dŵr Cymru, cyflenwr dŵr cyhoeddus mwyaf Cymru, yn mwynhau arbediad o ryw 3 y cant ar ei fil treth presennol.
All the companies affected by these Orders were consulted extensively about the valuations produced by the Valuation Office Agency. I ask Members to endorse these two items and vote in support of them.
Ymgynghorwyd yn helaeth â’r holl gwmnïau y mae’r Gorchmynion hyn yn effeithio arnynt ynghylch y prisiadau a gynhyrchwyd gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio. Gofynnaf i Aelodau gadarnhau’r ddwy eitem hon a phleidleisio o’u plaid.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 84
Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig cyntaf i gymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymgymerwyr Dŵr (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000.
I call for a vote on the first motion to approve the Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 36 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 84
Galwaf am bleidlais ar y Gorchymyn British Gas ccc (Gwerth Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000.
I call for a vote on the British Gas plc (Rateable Value) (Wales) Order 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 36 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
Cymeradwyo Canllawiau’r Cynulliad
Approval of Assembly Guidance
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 85
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 85
Yr eitem olaf ar yr agenda yw’r cynigion i gymeradwyo canllawiau’r Cynulliad ar gwestiynau llafar ac ysgrifenedig ac ar grwpio dewis a gwrthod gwelliannau. Hoffwn wneud datganiad cryno. Ym mis Mai y llynedd, fe ddywedais wrth y Cynulliad fod y broses o fabwysiadu’r canllawiau drafft ar gwestiynau yn y Cynulliad yn cael ei gohirio nes i’r Aelodau a’r staff gael cyfle i weld a oedd y ddarpariaeth ddrafft yn ddigon cadarn a phriodol. Dywedais y byddai’r drafft yn cael ei ailystyried yng ngoleuni hynny, a gofynnais i’r Aelodau weithio o fewn ysbryd y drafft yn y cyfamser. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am wneud hynny.
The last item on the agenda are the motions to approve the Assembly guidance on both oral and written questions and the grouping of amendments and rejecting amendments. I would like to make a short statement. Last May I advised the Assembly that adoption of the draft guidance on Assembly questions was to be deferred until Members and staff had had the opportunity to test the robustness and appropriateness of the draft provision. I indicated that the draft would be reconsidered in the light of experience, and asked Members to work within the spirit of the draft in the meantime. I am grateful to you for doing so.
Yn dilyn y galw i egluro pa feysydd y mae’r Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdanynt, cytunais y dylid darparu canllawiau ar gyfer Aelodau ym mis Gorffennaf. Mewn ymateb i bwyntiau o drefn ynghylch cyflwyno’r cwestiynau yn benodol i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, cytunwyd i gyhoeddi canllawiau manylach ar gyfer yr Aelodau a staff y Swyddfa Gyflwyno. Dosbarthwyd y canllawiau gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gynharach yr wythnos hon.
As a result of calls for clarification of the areas for which Assembly Secretaries are responsible, I agreed that guidance should be provided for Members in July. In response to points of order about tabling questions specifically to the Finance Secretary, it was agreed that more detailed guidance would be made available for Members and Table Office staff. The First Secretary issued the guidance earlier this week.
Law yn llaw â’r canllawiau drafft, a fydd yn cael eu mabwysiadu heddiw o bosibl, credaf fod gennym fframwaith clir fel Cynulliad ar gyfer sicrhau bod Aelodau yn cael cyfle i ofyn cwestiynau i Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad am y meysydd y maent yn atebol amdanynt, yn unol ag adran 56 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 a Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6. Pwysleisiaf nad wyf yn ystyried hyn yn gyfyngiad ar hawl Aelodau i gael gwybodaeth nac i godi materion sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru. Hoffwn atgoffa Aelodau fod modd cael gwybodaeth drwy ddulliau eraill a bod gwasanaeth briffio y Llyfrgell yn barod bob amser i’n cynorthwyo. Rhan sylfaenol o swyddogaeth Swyddfa’r Llywydd yw darparu cyngor a chanllawiau diduedd ac annibynnol i Aelodau o bob grwp, gan gynnwys cyngor cyfrinachol. Mae Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn arfer y dulliau gorau i geisio cael gwybodaeth yn ogystal â gweithio gydag Aelodau er mwyn sicrhau eu bod hwy, os oes modd, yn cael atebion i’w cwestiynau bob amser.
Together with the draft guidance, that will possibly be adopted today, I believe that as an Assembly we have a clear framework for ensuring that Members are given the opportunity to question Assembly Secretaries on the areas for which they are accountable, in accordance with section 56 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 and Standing Order No. 6. I emphasise that I do not think that this limits Members’ rights to obtain information or raise matters that affect Wales. I would like to remind Members that it is possible to access information in other ways and that the Library’s briefing service is always ready to assist us. A fundamental part of the role of the Office of the Presiding Officer is the provision of impartial and independent advice and guidance to Members of all groups, including confidential advice. The Office of the Presiding Officer uses the best means of obtaining information as well as working with Members to ensure that, wherever possible, they always receive answers to their questions.
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 86
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 86
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
I am mindful, Llywydd, of your earlier comments that Members seem to reserve their excitement for debating internal Assembly business. Nonetheless, I hope they will contain their excitement about this item on the agenda.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol, Lywydd, o’ch sylwadau yn gynharach fod Aelodau fel petaent yn cynhyrfu fwy wrth drafod busnes mewnol y Cynulliad. Serch hynny, gobeithio y gallant ffrwyno’u cyffro ynglŷn â’r eitem hon ar yr agenda.
On 19 May 1999, the Presiding Officer announced that the draft guidance on oral and written questions would be revisited in the light of experience. In consultation with Members, political parties and the Business Committee, we have produced revised Assembly guidance on tabling questions. I hope and expect there to be all-party support for this revised guidance.
Ar 19 Mai 1999, cyhoeddodd y Llywydd yr edrychid eto ar y canllawiau drafft ar gwestiynau llafar ac ysgrifenedig yng ngoleuni profiad. Gan ymgynghori ag Aelodau, pleidiau gwleidyddol a’r Pwyllgor Busnes, yr ydym wedi cynhyrchu canllawiau diwygiedig i’r Cynulliad ar gyflwyno cwestiynau. Gobeithiaf a disgwyliaf gael cefnogaeth gan yr holl bleidiau i’r canllawiau diwygiedig hyn.
This guidance is mainly clarification and expansion of the existing text to make tabling questions easier for Members and their staff. However, three substantive changes have been proposed, to which I want to draw Members’ attention. First, questions should be tabled on matters for which the Assembly and its Secretaries have devolved and delegated responsibilities. Secondly, tabling written questions to the Business Secretary has been added, which was overlooked in the original guidance. Thirdly, a reference to delegated responsibilities has been made, to make it clear that questions for which an Assembly Secretary has day-to-day responsibility should be tabled to the appropriate Secretary.
Mae’r canllawiau hyn yn bennaf yn eglurhau ac yn ehangu ar y testun gwreiddiol i’w gwneud yn haws i Aelodau a’u staff gyflwyno cwestiynau. Fodd bynnag, cynigir tri newid sylweddol, yr hoffwn dynnu sylw Aelodau atynt. Yn gyntaf, dylid cyflwyno cwestiynau ar faterion y mae gan y Cynulliad a’i Ysgrifenyddion gyfrifoldebau datganoledig a dirprwyedig amdanynt. Yn ail, ychwanegwyd cyflwyno cwestiynau i’r Trefnydd, a anghofiwyd yn y canllawiau gwreiddiol. Yn drydydd, cyfeiriwyd at gyfrifoldebau dirprwyedig, er mwyn ei gwneud yn glir y dylai cwestiynau y mae gan Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb dydd-i-ddydd amdanynt gael eu cyflwyno i’r Ysgrifennydd priodol.
I also propose that
Cynigiaf hefyd fod
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 88
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
Early in its history, on 25 May 1999, the Assembly adopted this guidance. Before Christmas, the Business Committee undertook an exercise to review several pieces of guidance to consider whether any amendments were required in the light of experience. Members of the Committee are all agreed on the need for these small amendments to the guidance. The two main proposals are as follows.
Yn gynnar yn ei hanes, ar 25 Mai 1999, mabwysiadodd y Cynulliad y canllawiau hyn. Cyn y Nadolig, ymgymerodd y Pwyllgor Busnes ag ymarferiad i adolygu nifer o ganllawiau er mwyn ystyried a oedd angen unrhyw welliannau yng ngoleuni profiad. Mae aelodau’r Pwyllgor i gyd yn gytûn ar yr angen am y mân newidiadau hyn i’r canllawiau. Mae’r ddau brif gynnig fel a ganlyn:
First, under paragraph 10, the Presiding Officer can decline to select an amendment to a draft Order, where he considers that the proper conduct of the business of the Assembly makes it appropriate to do so. This should also apply to amendments to motions. Secondly, if appropriate, the Presiding Officer should be able to group amendments by political party and call one speaker to speak on his or her party’s amendments. The remaining amendments are to tidy up the guidance and reflect the changes in the way that the Assembly now conducts its votes.
Yn gyntaf, dan baragraff 10, gall y Llywydd wrthod dewis gwelliant i Orchymyn drafft, lle bo o’r farn ei bod yn briodol gwneud hynny er mwyn cynnal busnes y Cynulliad mewn modd priodol. Dylai hyn fod yn wir am welliannau i gynigion hefyd. Yn ail, os yw’n briodol, dylai’r Llywydd allu grwpio gwelliannau fesul plaid wleidyddol a galw ar un siaradwr i siarad ar welliannau ei blaid ef neu ei phlaid hi. Amcan y gwelliannau eraill yw tacluso’r canllawiau ac adlewyrchu’r newidiadau yn y ffordd y mae’r Cynulliad yn pleidleisio erbyn hyn.
The first point of the second motion could be open to misinterpretation. I would prefer ‘proper conduct of the business of the Assembly in Plenary session’ to ‘proper conduct of the business of the Assembly’. Without ‘in Plenary session’, that point is open to interpretation. It could mean proper conduct of the Executive’s business or committee business. However, I do not propose to delay proceedings on this, as it can be revisited if any disputes arise as to the interpretation of ‘proper conduct of the Assembly business’. I am sure, Dafydd, that you will interpret it correctly.
Gallai’r pwynt cyntaf yn yr ail gynnig fod yn agored i’w gamddehongli. Byddai’n well gennyf fi ‘cynnal busnes y Cynulliad yn briodol mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn’ na ‘cynnal busnes y Cynulliad yn briodol’. Heb ‘mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn’, mae’r pwynt yna’n agored i ddehongliad. Gallai olygu cynnal busnes y Weithrediaeth yn briodol, neu fusnes pwyllgorau. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn bwriadu dal y mater hwn yn ôl, gan y gellir dod yn ôl ato os cyfyd unrhyw anghytundeb ynghylch dehongliad ‘cynnal busnes y Cynulliad yn briodol’. Yr wyf yn siŵr, Dafydd, y gwnewch chi ei ddehongli’n gywir.
I have always stated that guidance is not set in stone and can be revised, as we are doing today. If John wants to make representations, we will consider them.
Yr wyf wedi dweud bob amser nad yw’r canllawiau wedi’u gosod mewn carreg ac y gellir eu hadolygu, fel yr ydym ni’n gwneud heddiw. Os hoffai John gyflwyno sylwadau, fe’u hystyriwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 89
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 89
Galwaf am bleidlais i gymeradwyo Canllawiau’r Cynulliad ar Gwestiynau Llafar ac Ysgrifenedig.
I call for a vote to approve the Assembly Guidance on Oral and Written Questions.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 33 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (33)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 89
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 89
Galwaf am bleidlais ar y gwelliannau i Ganllawiau’r Cynulliad ar Grwpio, Dewis a Gwrthod Gwelliannau.
I call for a vote on the amendments to the Assembly Guidance on the Grouping, Selection and Refusal of Amendments.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 34 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (34)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- John Marek
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 90
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 90
Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu bywiogrwydd yn ystod y sesiwn a’r modd ystyriol y trafodwyd y materion iechyd.
I thank Members for their liveliness during the session and the considerate way that health issues were discussed.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.21 p.m.
The session ended at 5.21 p.m.