Diolchaf am y cyfle i agor y drafodaeth bwysig hon ar y cyfrifiad a’r angen inni gynnwys blwch ticio i alluogi pobl Cymru i fynegi eu Cymreictod. Mae’n drueni bod yn rhaid inni gynnig cynnig o’r fath, ond gofynnaf i bob Aelod ei gefnogi. Onibai am benderfyniad y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol a’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain i wrthod caniatáu cynnwys blwch ticio ar y ffurflen, ni fyddai wedi bod yn angenrheidiol inni godi’r pwnc hwn o gwbl.

Nid mater o hepgor cwestiwn am genedligrwydd yn unig yw hyn, er y byddai hynny’n ddigon, o gofio’r cynnydd sylweddol yn yr ymwybyddiaeth o Gymreictod yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae’r sefyllfa yn waeth na hynny. Caiff y Gwyddelod a’r Albanwyr gyfle i nodi eu cenedligrwydd, a dylid canmol hynny. Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn dymuno nodi eich bod yn Gymro neu’n Gymraes, yn ôl y rheolau presennol, bydd yn rhaid ichi dicio blwch yn dwyn y teitl ‘Arall’, neu ysgrifennu’r geiriau hynny eich hun.

Cafwyd ymgyrch nerthol yng Nghymru ac unoliaeth barn nas gwelwyd ei thebyg ers blynyddoedd lawer. Fodd bynnag, fe’n siomwyd gan ymateb y Llywodraeth yn Llundain. Cafodd Simon Thomas AS ateb annigonol gan y Prif Weinidog yn y Senedd, a chefais innau ateb tebyg gan Tony Blair yr wythnos diwethaf mewn llythyr nad oedd yn cynnig unrhyw beth newydd.

Rhaid datgan yn glir fod pobl wedi codi mater blwch ticio cyn i’r Llywodraeth wneud y penderfyniad terfynol. Honna’r Llywodraeth na fu i unrhyw un dynnu sylw at y diffyg hwn pan wnaethpwyd yr ymarferiad yng Ngwynedd a Cheredigion y llynedd. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym wybodaeth sydd yn groes i hynny. Gwyddom i berson a ddosbarthodd ffurflenni yng Ngwynedd—gŵr o Loegr gyda llaw—ddweud wrth reolwr lleol bod pobl wedi mynegi dymuniad i gael blwch ticio ‘Cymreig’. Yn yr un modd, yng Ngheredigion, gwyddom i bobl gwyno nad oedd modd iddynt fynegi eu Cymreictod, er gwaethaf y dryswch a achosai’r geiriau ‘cenedligrwydd’ a ‘cefndir ethnig’ ar y ffurflen, ac er gwaethaf cyndynrwydd pobl i gwyno wrth gyrff swyddogol. Gwyddom hefyd i ddau gorff fynegi pryder ynglŷn â’r blwch ticio—

Although all of that is interesting, Ieuan, from where do you draw any kind of moral authority to make those comments? You are a Member of Parliament who took part in the debate on the 2001 census in Westminster. You voted with the Tories on an amendment during that debate. However, you did not raise this issue. Your party did not raise it until the Independent Wales Party placed it on the agenda.

That is simply not the case, Huw. As an experienced Assembly Member, you know that, when secondary legislation is discussed in Westminster, not all Members are on the body that discusses it. It was not possible for all Welsh Members of Parliament to contribute to that debate. We should not try to be divisive on this issue today. Wales should speak with a united voice on this. I am surprised that you wish to raise a note of discord in a debate in which we should all agree.

Mae’n bwysig cofnodi bod dau gorff wedi dweud eu bod am weld blwch ticio ar y ffurflen, sef y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol a Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Mae’r ddau gorff yn cadarnhau i hynny ddigwydd cyn i’r Llywodraeth a’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol wneud y penderfyniad terfynol. Gwyddom hefyd nad oedd y ffurflenni wedi eu hargraffu pan gododd Simon Thomas y pwnc am y tro cyntaf yn y Senedd.

Gofynnwn heddiw am gefnogaeth unfrydol y Cynulliad i’r cynnig hwn er mwyn atgyfnerthu’r alwad ar ran pobl Cymru. Dyma brif gorff llywodraethol Cymru, a phe bai’r Cynulliad yn siarad gydag un llais, rhoddid pwysau ychwanegol a fyddai’n dweud wrth y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan ac yn Whitehall fod yn rhaid iddi wrando ar lais Cymru yn y mater hwn. Heb fynegiant o genedligrwydd Cymreig, ni fyddai’r Cynulliad yn bodoli. Mae’n deg inni ddisgwyl i’r corff hwn wneud safiad cryf a chroyw i fynnu’r hawl i’n pobl ddatgan eu hunaniaeth yn glir a diamwys.

All Assembly Members will accept that being classified as ‘Other’ on the census form has led to widespread anger in Wales. We have seen an unprecedented unity on this issue. We all agree that Welshness is not a question of ethnicity. Anyone who lives in Wales and regards themselves as belonging here should be able to mark themselves as ‘Welsh’, if they wish to do so. I can think of many examples of people from Asian or African ethnic origin who may want to describe their cultural background as Welsh. They are entitled to do so. However, the census does not cater for them. There is also a clear implication on the form, as it stands, that to be British is to be white. The dangers of that were highlighted in the recent Runnymede Trust report, ‘The Future of Multi-Ethnic Britain’.

No claims of nationality or identity should be exclusive. Many people can and do have a sense of belonging to more than one group. This should be recognised and encouraged. It is Wales’s cultural diversity that gives it its energy and distinctiveness. It is a matter of fundamental human rights that people can choose how they want to express their identity.

I am also pleased that the discussion about our nationality and identity can transcend party politics. I move the motion in that spirit. It should unite all Assembly Members. The motion has been drafted in a way that gives every Member the opportunity to support it. It does not criticise anyone for past failures. It is a simple expression of fact—that the 2001 census form should contain a Welsh tick box.

Think of the added clout that adopting this motion would give us. The Assembly would have spoken with one voice and we could invite the Assembly’s party leaders to write to Tony Blair together on behalf of the people of Wales to call for the inclusion of an appropriate tick box. That is a simple, clear and reasonable demand. There is no need to pulp the existing forms. All we need to do is either to ask for an additional page including a Welsh tick box or overprint the existing page. There may a requirement to change the software to accommodate that. We might save the Treasury some cash. The cost of preparing a new page, or even overprinting, is estimated at £60,000. We could save the Treasury £940,000 on the cost of advertising, which would be unnecessary.

I am happy to accept the spirit of amendment 1 but, given the assurances on how we propose to progress, I hope that the Welsh Conservative Party will withdraw its amendment.

We do not advocate or support a civil disobedience campaign on this issue. With that in mind, I will deal with the Lib-Lab amendment. I am not happy with how it has been drafted. It states the obvious. It is also defensive, as it seems to acknowledge that the campaign for tick box is almost doomed to failure. We must not let an imaginary threat of non-compliance deflect attention from the real issue, which is that the people of Wales should be allowed to declare their identity. Given the need for the widest possible support for this, we will accept the Lib-Lab amendment, although we are unconvinced of its relevance or value in the context of the debate. The overriding concern for the Assembly is to accept this motion and then to invite party leaders in Wales to write to Tony Blair to express the settled wish of the people of Wales. This body will then have spoken and the people of Wales will have been given a voice. Therefore, I urge all Members to support our motion. It is literally a time for us, as a nation, to stand up and be counted.

We hope to look forward to a new era in the history of Wales and, in particular, in politics in Wales. The Assembly was elected to be the voice of Wales for this generation. The people of Wales look to us today to voice their expectations that they should be given this opportunity to register their national identity. If Wales is truly a nation, its people must have the opportunity to record their nationality.

The Welsh Conservatives have been labelled as not being Welsh at heart, for leading the campaign against establishing the Assembly. We have turned a page and that is not only untrue, but it is history. Today, we are talking about fact. We are seeking to have the census forms overprinted with a Welsh tick box that allows everyone to have the clearest and easiest opportunity to record their national identity. I am grateful to Sarah Dickins of BBC Wales for giving me a copy of the intended form. Members will note that there is a large space on the form. It would be easy to have it overprinted, hence the cost need not be what has been ridiculously claimed in the press. I endorse Ieuan Wyn Jones’s comments in terms of why cannot you be white or black Caribbean, Asian or Asian British, black or black British, Chinese or from another ethnic group and still be a Welshman or a Welshwoman?

The million-pound package announced by Tony Blair in October is worth almost half the amount estimated to be required to have all the census forms reprinted. However, the package will only fund an advertising campaign that cannot guarantee that all those who wish to register as Welsh will be able to do so. If people follow the advice in that campaign and make the extra effort to write ‘Welsh’ within the ‘Other’ option, they may find that their efforts were for nothing. ‘Welsh’ written in on the census form may not be read by the scanning machine. Len Cook, the national statistician and registrar general, has remarked that such entries may not be included in the vitally important digest of census figures.

It is vital that everyone should complete their census forms. The census is the only detailed social survey that includes everyone in the United Kingdom. The information that it provides will be used to ensure that services that future governments provide match the needs of the people. Overprinting the census forms with a Welsh tick box will cost far less than the advertising campaign. That is the clearest and easiest option to allow all those people who wish to register their national identity as Welsh to do so. We ask the Assembly to voice the feelings of the people of Wales by supporting this amendment and allowing them to have the same opportunity as the people of Scotland to register their nationality. If this Assembly stands for anything, it must be for hope for the future, and by declaring Welsh identity on this form we hope for and look forward to a confident future.

I am glad to have the opportunity to debate this matter again in the Assembly and that this time we have an opportunity to vote and, as Ieuan Wyn Jones said, to make our views and therefore the views of the nation clear. When I raised this in the short debate, I received a strong response from members of the public all over Wales saying that they were glad that I had done so. I received a particularly strong response from my own constituency, which gives the lie to the point that some people have been attempting to make that this is a matter of interest to the chattering classes only. Llanelli is an interesting place, but none of us would call it a haunt of the chattering classes. It is not only the cyfryngis—the media-types—who are concerned about this.

I was particularly interested in the response that I had from members of the black and ethnic minority communities. The comments from those communities highlighted for me one further reason that perhaps I did not fully express when I last spoke on this matter, about the importance of needing to be able to register one’s Welshness. It has sometimes been said that some black and ethnic minority members of our communities feel more alienated from Welsh society since the establishment of the Assembly. The comments that I received suggest that for many black and ethnic minority citizens, the reverse is true. They feel strongly about their Welsh identity and they wish to have a way of expressing it. However, for some of those citizens, it may be the case that they do not feel fully part of our nation. That must be a source of great concern to us all.

We need the census data to enable us to measure how our black and ethnic minority fellow citizens identify now. If we find out that a higher percentage of people from, for example, ethnic minority backgrounds do not wish to express themselves as Welsh than the percentage of white citizens, we have a problem. As an equal opportunities body we would need to address that problem. We need to have this information to enable us to measure how people feel about themselves and about the new nation that we are trying to build, so that we can measure the impact of many of our equality measures in 10 years time.

The same is equally true in a different way for non-Welsh born citizens of Wales. Surely we want to find out how they identify with this project and whether they feel that they are part of it. There is no way on the current form for people who were not born here and do not speak Welsh to identify themselves as citizens of Wales. I am sure that we cannot find that acceptable.

The arguments about how all this has come about have been well rehearsed. The reasons why the Office for National Statistics did not accept the warnings that we all know it was given are important. There are lessons that we must learn from this. What matters now is what happens. One of the reasons why Plaid Cymru does not support the Conservative Party’s amendment is that we think that it ties the hands of the Government too much. I would be happy with an additional page. Overprinting is probably the simplest method, but if an additional page would be simpler and cheaper I am happy to live with that, which is why we will not support the Conservative amendment.

This surely must be something that we can all agree that it is possible to change. It is not too late to put this right. I hope that colleagues in the Chamber will support this motion to enable it to be clearly expressed to the Government.

I am pleased to be able to follow on from Helen Mary because I was sitting here wondering whether to intervene. A number of the issues that I wanted to deal with relate directly to the things she was saying. I have no doubt that the issue of our identity is of fundamental importance to us all. We should not pretend that that is not the case. For me, learning about that identity, tackling it and making it visible—not just to ourselves but to people outside Wales—was always going to be a central part of the devolution process. It was a major reason why we needed devolution, because we had lived for so long in a country called ‘and Wales’: ‘England and Wales’ or ‘Scotland and Wales’; it was invisible. Devolution gave us a voice for people in Wales. That is powerful and important and we are only just beginning to come to grips with it. We have only been here for a short time.

I have made my voice heard. I have written to the chief executive of the ONS. I have raised this issue in several places. I have spoken to my local Member of Parliament, we have discussed it in the Labour Party and in the Labour group. I am satisfied that we have made our voice heard. The question is whether we can go any further.

Devolution was also about the fact that the needs of Wales were being ignored. I am satisfied that the noise that we have made so far means that those needs will not be ignored in the past—

In the future.

—in the future. Thank you, Ron. Sorry, I am getting a little carried away.

It is important to consider what is on offer to us. I return to what Helen Mary said: she is absolutely right about Welsh identity and what it means to different people who live in Wales. We do not know enough about that. We do not know how people in north Wales feel or how people in south Wales, black people, white people and people who have come to live in Wales feel. Frankly, we will not get that information from a simple tick box on the census form. We will get it from a proper study of Welsh identity that will enable us to raise a whole range of questions that can tease out some of those complexities and enable us therefore to obtain substantive information to inform our future social and economic policy.

This brings me to the question about whether we have gone far enough. The great danger in going any further than this is that a campaign of disobedience builds up and then people do not complete the form. Then we do not have the critical socio-economic data that we need to plan this Assembly’s activities.

There are three standpoints that politicians have taken on the issue of the census form in Wales. First, there is the arrogant and offensive attitude shown by those who insist on decrying and denying the rights of Welsh citizens of various ethnic backgrounds to describe themselves as Welsh. This group seeks to impose upon all Welsh citizens, and the citizens of England, the geo-political term, ‘British’. Secondly, there are those who say, ‘let us put the census form right, print an insert and allow the people of Wales to answer the questions on ethnicity in line with their own instincts’. It appears that the cost of such an exercise, including printing and processing, would not exceed one tenth of the expenditure on the Welsh census. It is a reasonable and practical proposal, and I stress that it is an opportunity for the National Assembly to show that it can act successfully on behalf of Welsh interests. However, there is a third standpoint on this matter. That is where people voice their disapproval of the unfortunately-worded form, but then proceed to trot out a succession of excuses when presented with each means of correcting that mistake. This is by no means the most important issue that this Assembly must address, but it is a litmus test to show whether, as a national institution, we have the determination to tell Westminster to put matters right. Today we heard Rhodri’s reply to my question about making St David’s Day a Welsh bank holiday. He wrote to Mr Murphy, but he has not replied yet. Therefore, we do not know whether he is pressing the Westminster Government—yn pwyso ar y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan. He tells me that he has written twice. That is fine, but it is not good enough. We have been elected to the Assembly. This national institution has been founded to serve the people of Wales and here we are writing to this chap Murphy and he is not responding and doing what we tell him to do. We should demand that he does so. If you show Westminster that you are serious, it might take notice of you. If you keep on knocking on the door with a sponge, it will not even hear you.

I have given much thought to identity recently. To a large extent, we are defined by our upbringing, by our family and by the community in which we live. That community can be defined, in the narrowest of senses, as the street in which we live or, much wider, as the country or even the continent of which we form a part.

I was born and brought up in England, as were both my parents. However, in terms of ancestry, I carry a large portion of Scottish blood, a fair smattering of Irish blood and some Welsh blood. My grandmother was from a Welsh-speaking family based in north Wales. I have lived in Wales for 22 years and I identify most closely with communities in Wales to the extent that I would place a tick in the box that defined me as Welsh, if I were to have the opportunity to do so on next year’s census form. However, it is not that simple, as I also think of myself as being part of the greater community of Britain and as a European. We all belong to several communities, all of which are interrelated and interlinked. Identity lies in part of each of those communities.

I support the need for a Welsh tick box on next year’s census form, as do the other Welsh Liberal Democrats, because it is right that people should be able to record their identity. Although the census is, essentially, an instrument to gather useful statistics to inform public policy, it does so by asking us to define ourselves in terms of family, employment, education and status. Such a definition cannot be complete unless we are also allowed to define ourselves in terms of our community and ethnicity.

However, we must be careful in how we conduct this campaign. The National Assembly does not have the power to raise its own finances through taxation, despite the fact that some of us believe that it should have that ability. Our money comes from the UK Government in accordance with a formula that is based entirely on population. With high levels of poverty and deprivation in many parts of Wales, with severe problems of ill-health, poor housing, educational underachievement and economic inactivity, we need every penny that we can get. We cannot put that at risk. That is why, no matter what the outcome of this campaign, we must urge people to complete the census form. That is why I hope that the Assembly will support the campaign for a Welsh tick box but also support the Labour and Liberal Democrat amendment. Without that amendment, we are in danger of adding our voices to a campaign that will undermine everything that we have tried to achieve since May 1999.

It has been said many times that this issue was brought to the attention of politicians and the Office for National Statistics far too late. I will quote to you from a letter written by John Walter Jones, the chief executive of the Welsh Language Board, to The Western Mail on 7 November:

Therefore, the issue was brought to their attention and a political decision was taken not to include the tick box. Let us be clear about the implications of this. We are not talking about one form. I will quote to you from a letter received by two of my constituents from the Higher Education Statistics Agency:

Every comparative form for the next 10 years will follow the same categories as the census for population. On every form, the people of Wales will not be allowed the opportunity to state their nationhood. We, in cool Cymru, are encouraged to wake up every morning and thank the Lord that we are Welsh, but a political decision has been taken not to allow us to register that fact on the census form and on every other comparative form that will follow for the next 10 years. That is the situation as far as we are concerned. It is a political decision and we, as the political forum of Wales, must state our case clearly. We want that change. We want them to accept that they made a mistake and to change the situation. We want to be allowed to have that right to state our nationhood on this form, and on every other form that will be used as a comparative form against it. It is a simple matter of political fact. The buck stops with the Cabinet on the fifth floor of Crickhowell House. We must have political lead from this administration to take to Westminster and to tell them that this wrong must be righted.

My name is Christine Gwyther, and I make my confession. On 16 August 2000, at the Pembrokeshire County Show, I signed a Plaid Cymru petition deploring the lack of a Welsh tick box on the 2001 census form. I signed it as a proud Welshwoman because I was incensed that the ONS was not listening to the people of Wales. Like my Labour colleagues in Wales, I kept a weather eye on the negotiations that Rhodri Morgan undertook throughout the summer. My good wishes went with him in his efforts to secure an amendment to the form. Ultimately, Rhodri secured a commitment to find out more about the ethnicity of people in Wales in a credible, modern and enlightened manner, which we are told the Scottish form does not include. Well done for that, Rhodri. It was an imperfect conclusion, as I am sure we would all agree. However, that was the conclusion.

It has been a funny summer. At about the same time that the census tick box campaign took off, we heard of the brilliant outcome of the comprehensive spending review, which has fed into a Welsh Labour-led policy programme for the next few years, and the first Objective 1 project commitments. A poor comprehensive spending review would have been cataclysmic for Wales. The lack of a Welsh tick box is not. Call me, like the Joneses—Ieuan Wyn and Helen Mary—a timid patriot, but I will not burn, pulp, shred or swallow my 2001 census form. I will spend my energies ensuring that my constituency benefits as it should from the Labour-led policies that we can now push forward as a result of this year’s CSR. However, I have a long memory. This tick box omission was not just a cock-up, it was an insult. It should never happen again, and I will continue working within the Labour party, and within the law, for justice for Wales, because we are worth it.

I have watched this debate about the absence of a Welsh tick box on next year’s census form develop all summer. I have found it difficult to understand the sheer inadequacy of the administration in trying to deal with it. It is a straightforward issue on which we could have all agreed. Our First Minister could have shown some leadership, done himself some good and earned the Assembly a few brownie points. However, we have seen the usual, aimless meandering with a half-hearted acknowledgement that there should have been a Welsh tick box, but no commitment to do anything about it. We needed the First Secretary to stick up for Wales, to knock on the door of his pal at 10 Downing Street and demand that he put it right, or he, Rhodri Morgan, would consider that the Prime Minister had let Wales down, and not for the first time.

This issue is straightforward. We all think that there should be a Welsh tick box. Most Labour AMs agree with that. However, the real issue that we are debating today is the willingness of the administration in this Assembly to stand up to the Labour Government at Westminster and to fight for the interests of the Assembly and for Wales. My impression of the administration since day one, whether led by Alun Michael or Rhodri Morgan, is that it is unwilling to do that. It is almost as if the administration thinks that giving Wales an Assembly was sufficient and the job is done. The job is not done. My party was opposed to setting up the Assembly, but we accepted the referendum result. We sought election, and we are working to make this Assembly work. We need a change of attitude and a determination to stick up for Wales.

I do not know how significant this debate about the tick box is. For some people, it seems trivial. On the other hand, it is significant in that it asks each of us, not so much as politicians, but as individuals, how we see ourselves. This self-observation matters to the Welsh. My first territorial identity was as ‘Glyn the Bank’, not because I am rich, but because of where I was born. My first really powerful identity was with Montgomeryshire, where I became leader of the local council. On a national level, it is, I suppose, politically correct for me to say that I see myself as both Welsh and British and want to tick two boxes. However, whenever I have to choose, I always choose Welsh. To me, there is nothing inherently un-Conservative about that. So, come on, Rhodri, for the sake of Owain Glyndwr, Lloyd George, Aneurin Bevan and Mrs Thatcher, go out and get us our tick box.

Yn anarferol, ceisiaf gefnogi’r cynnig a gwelliant 2, oherwydd fy mod yn siomedig ynghylch diffyg blwch tic Cymreig. Cefnogaf hefyd yr alwad ar i bawb ystyried pwysigrwydd llenwi’r ffurflen er mwyn sicrhau bod Cymru’n cael ei hariannu’n deg. Pe baem yn gwrando’n awr ar y drafodaeth yr wythnos diwethaf ar benderfyniad Sefydliad Addysg, Gwyddoniaeth a Diwylliant y Cenhedloedd Unedig i roi statws treftadaeth byd i Flaenafon, credaf y byddai hynny yn cynnig esboniad o’n teimladau dwfn ynghylch hawl y Cymry i ddewis rhoi tic mewn blwch yn dwyn y disgrifiad ‘Cymreig’.

Soniodd Aelod ar ôl Aelod am bwysigrwydd ein hanes a’n hetifeddiaeth ac am fywydau ein cynfamau a’n cyndadau. Yn wir, yr oedd yn drafodaeth liwgar am yr hyn y mae’n ei olygu i lawer ohonom i fod yn Gymry ac yn Brydeinwyr.

I will support the motion, but not the party political motivation that drives the party of Welsh nationalism. To me, this is an issue as much for the non-politically active as for we politicians. I share the regret on the omission of a Welsh tick box voiced by the First Minister, whose Welshness is a characteristic that has earned him the support and respect of our nation. Indeed, my membership of and belief in the Labour Party, the natural party of Wales, is synonymous with being Welsh. I was brought up within a Welsh socialist family, which is very different to a Welsh nationalist one. My mother and father first met on an unemployed workers’ march. The Labour Party fought to improve our standard of living and to defend our right to a Welsh identity.

Therefore, it is no wonder that I consider myself to be SWS—socialist, Welsh and selective—about what I will support today. I believe passionately that Labour is the party for Wales. However, I believe just as passionately that my constituents and the people of Wales deserve a Welsh tick box.

There are plenty of things to get angry about in this place. You can be angry that the UK is the fourth richest country in the world, but that we educate far too many of our children in buildings that are not fit for purpose. You can get angry about the fact that the richest live seven years longer than the poorest in our society, and you can get justifiably angry about the fact that people are harassed because of the colour of their skin. These things happen every day in Wales, and in my constituency. While our society is disfigured by inequality and injustice, I refuse to get too angry about the lack of a tick box. I will happily write ‘Welsh, British and European’ on my form.

The lack of a tick box is insensitive and I recognise that many will be offended by it. However anyone who thinks that this is the number one problem facing Wales needs to get out more. This is the last time that we will face this problem. I am confident that the Welsh parliament will legislate to correct this in 2011, the time of the next census, and that the next census form will be a model of equal opportunities practice. There is a long and honourable history of civil protest and disobedience in Wales, but a bonfire of census forms could seriously damage every pupil, patient and pensioner in Wales. So, fill it in, write Welsh in, and send it in.

Croesawaf y drafodaeth hon heddiw. Bûm yn gweithio’n galed y tu ôl i’r llenni ynghyd ag eraill yn fy mhlaid—Rhodri yn fwy na neb—i geisio newid y sefyllfa gwbl annerbyniol hon. Mae’n dristwch mawr gennyf nad yw’r Prif Weinidog yn Llundain, un y mae gennyf feddwl uchel ohono, wedi gweld y ffordd yn glir i wrthdroi’r penderfyniad.

Nid oedd dirmyg bwriadol yn y ffordd y lluniwyd y ffurflen hon yn y lle cyntaf, ond unwaith y daeth y cam yn amlwg a’r niwed i nifer o bobl Cymru yn glir, dylid bod wedi darganfod ffordd i newid y sefyllfa yn gynt. Y mae’n anodd deall sut y gall biwrocratiaeth ac anawsterau technegol gael eu rhoi o flaen dyhead naturiol pobl i allu mynegi eu cenedligrwydd ar ffurflen.

Gobeithiaf nad yw’n rhy hwyr ac y bydd llais unedig y Cynulliad yn gallu dylanwadu lle y mae lleisiau unigolion wedi methu hyd yn hyn. Nid wyf yn or-obeithiol ond mae’n bwysig bod y neges glir hon yn cyrraedd Llundain. Dylem annog pobl i gwblhau’r ffurflen, a gallwn fod yn ffyddiog, a chael rhyw fath o gysur o’r ffaith na all hyn ddigwydd eto.

The controversy concerning the Welsh tick box has created a frisson of excitement for at least one Welsh newspaper and for the bulk of the Plaid Cymru membership. However, I think that the rest of the Welsh population looks on fairly bemused. In the course of this so-called national debate, I have not received one letter, phone call nor have I been stopped in the street by a constituent—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘There’s a postal strike’.]

There are no problems at Merthyr post office. I have not been lobbied by anyone on this issue who was not a member of Plaid Cymru or the Independent Wales Party. The much trumpeted, slow-hand-clap at the Millennium Stadium at the Wales versus South Africa rugby match turned out to be a slow, no-way from Welsh rugby fans. For those reasons, I approach this issue with a degree of scepticism as to whether we should be devoting Assembly time to discuss it.

For those reasons, I also look for an alternative motivation for those who seek to raise the profile of this issue in this Chamber. We do not need to look too far for the barely hidden agenda. Instead of being positive about this, what we have once again is an attempt to replace the normal run of political debate about left versus right, progressive versus conservative with the politics of identity—the politics of Plaid Cymru. That kind of politics will hijack any issue, whether of substance or confection, and replace any meaningful debate of its worth with a murder mystery whodunnit entitled ‘Who done Wales down’. This shining example of nationalist politics is just that—a confection. Part of a long series of bandwagons clambered on by Plaid Cymru that all have the same purpose: to build resentment among the people of Wales against the very idea of Britishness. They troop one by one through the television and radio studios of Wales describing the latest snub, today’s insult and the latest outrage to Wales emerging from Westminster. That is set aside from the fact that Labour in Westminster delivered devolution, Objective 1 and the platform, from which the nationalists could, if they wished, make a positive contribution to the progress of Wales.

I despair at their inability to do so and I despair at the contributions of spokespeople from other political parties who join Plaid Cymru on the rocky ground of the politics of identity rather than the politics of real people’s real lives. Listening to them, you would assume that they were some secret Whitehall department operating in the shadows of the department of anti-Welsh affairs, the apex of a great Anglo-saxon conspiracy to down the Welsh nation at every turn.

The politics of identity will make no difference to the lives of people in Wales except to promote resentment.

This may not be the most important or urgent issue facing Wales. However, that does not mean that it is not important or urgent. There are other issues that we could debate, but Plaid Cymru has chosen this as the subject for its minority party debate. I understand that it has every right to do so.

Few issues are black and white. However, this issue seems absolutely clear to me. As we have a National Assembly, it seems patently absurd to have a census in our country where people cannot indicate that they are Welsh. It is as straightforward as that. It is extraordinary that some people are proposing excuses as to why we have not got a Welsh tick box.

We have devolution, which was delivered because we have a Labour Government. However, when we came to the National Assembly, many of us thought that it would be more than a rubber stamp for everything that comes out of Westminster. If it is to be meaningful, we must say, on occasion, that we want to do things differently here. My party had a part to play in making Rhodri Morgan First Secretary, as the post was then called, in February. I was unsure as to whether we were doing our party any good. I thought that Rhodri would be more independent and would stick up for Wales. Even at this eleventh hour, I hope that he will do so.

I agree with Owen John that this is a litmus test. It is not the most important issue facing Wales, but it is a litmus test. Are we going to make a difference? What has happened to the Westminster-Cardiff access? I suspect that there will be little for Wales in the Queen’s Speech. What is happening? Why do we have no impact in Westminster? Why are we not punching in Westminster to ensure that there is a Welsh dimension to the Queen’s Speech and that we have a Welsh tick box? When Rhodri became First Minister there was much goodwill and optimism throughout Wales. I hope that he will address this when he speaks.

I must tell Huw Lewis that it is not only nationalists who feel strongly about this. Before the postal dispute stopped mail getting through, I had a substantial postbag from people of all political parties and those who did not support any political party, who agreed with the need for a separate Welsh tick box—

I believe that people are more grown up about this. I agree that there is a problem regarding the Welsh tick box. I would like to see one on the census form. However, the problem was made in Wales. We did not ask for a tick box. Let us be grown up enough to say that. We did not ask for a tick box during the consultation.

That may be the case. Huw may also like to acknowledge that Denzil Davies and Allan Rogers, who are Members of Parliament for the Labour Party in Westminster, played a dishonourable part in not giving us a tick box.

The Conservative group will support the motion. We will abstain on amendment 2, not because we favour civil disobedience, as we do not, but because it is dismissive. The amendment starts by saying ‘while recognising’, as if that is the end of the story and we are giving up on the battle for a Welsh tick box. We cannot agree to that. We despair at this administration’s lack of impact on Westminster. We hope that that will change and that, even at this eleventh hour, the First Minister will have something constructive to say on this.

I want to press the case for amendment 2 and indicate the Labour Party’s view on Ieuan’s motion. Had the motion been worded ‘there should have been a Welsh tick box’, we would not have amended it and it would have been adopted with united support. I have been advised that it is impractical to claim now that we can still secure changes to meet the widespread demand for a Welsh tick box. Our statisticians advise me that the idea given by many Members that a Welsh tick box can be achieved at this late hour by adding a loose insert page is not practical. This is a household census. One form will be distributed per head of household for households of up to five people. There would be hopeless confusion if there were an addendum for any number of people in a household without any reference to it in the main census form. The results would be liable to a wide and unacceptable margin of error. However, I am a politician, not a statistician. Neither I nor anyone else in the Chamber has any way of testing whether that is true. However, that is the advice that I have received from the statisticians.

I cannot give way, as time is short. I am told that overprinting, which the Conservatives mentioned, is incompatible with machine reading. I am a politician and not a statistician. Overprinting is a nice idea, but our statisticians say that it is not practical or compatible with machine reading.

Let us return to the issue of timing. I accept that I am one of the guilty people, because I am a Member of Parliament as well as being an Assembly Member. I could have raised these issues if I had attended frequently and if I had noticed the problem or it had been drawn to my attention. Ieuan, Dafydd Wigley, Ron Davies and John Marek are also guilty. Cynog might be in the clear, because he had left the House of Commons by then. However, the rest of us had our opportunity, but we did not avail ourselves of it. Peers of the realm also had the opportunity when these regulations were laid, but they did not avail themselves of it either. We are all equally guilty for not having spotted this. We did not spot it until the implications became clear after the debate in the Scottish Parliament, which changed their census form to include a Scottish question. That was on 15 June. Deryk Williams, census manager for Wales, raised this issue in a meeting with our officials in the middle of July, after the new national statistician, Len Cook, had started work. I raised the issue with Len Cook. I wrote to him and met him in early August to press the issue for a Welsh tick box to give us parity with Scotland. Unfortunately, production had already begun on the giant census form sheets and printing was only days away. On 29 July, work had begun on the Welsh language version and the day after my meeting with Len Cook, work began on the English language version. That is how it happened. I do not believe that that was a conspiracy, as many people have alleged today. It was simply a failure to recognise the post-devolution reality in relation to the question about ethnic identity. The forms were designed in 1997 and 1998 when people thought they were asking questions about ethnic origins. That is the issue that we face today. We have received the advice that it is not practical to change the form. However, we can express our regrets and anger that this census, the last of its kind, was designed pre-devolution, but will be implemented post-devolution.

Given that there is overwhelming opposition to the fact that there is no Welsh tick box—and I fully understand your argument—do you agree that the way forward is for the four party leaders in Wales to write to Tony Blair expressing the fact that this Assembly has come to a decision on the issue?

You always try this tactic because you like to pretend that you are more important that you are, Ieuan. [Laughter.] I am sorry about that. If you want to play to the gallery, then you must learn the script. You have not had the advantage of receiving advice from our statisticians, which says that it is not practical to change the form. If you accept that and want to rephrase your motion to say that it should have included a Welsh tick box that is fine. We can all agree on that. However, it is important that we do not lose out on the Barnett formula by condoning or encouraging people not to fill in the census form. It is vital to all of us and vital to public services in Wales.

Croesawaf farn unfrydol y ddadl hon. Croesawaf hefyd gryfder argyhoeddiad nifer o’r Aelodau. Mae hynny’n galonogol. Gwrandewais gyda chryn gydymdeimlad ar eiriau Gwenda Thomas a’r ffordd yr uniaethodd, yn ei hanes teuluol ei hunan, Gymreictod â’r mudiad Llafur. Yr wyf yn rhannu’r un gwreiddiau ac yr wyf innau yr un mor falch â hithau o hanes y mudiad Llafur yng Nghymru yn yr ugeinfed ganrif. Mae gennym dreftadaeth y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddi, treftadaeth yr ydym am ei mynegi drwy arwyddo ein bod yn Gymry yn y cyfrifiad hwn.

Croesawaf yn arbennig eiriau Delyth Evans. Dangosodd Val Feld yn ogystal bwysigrwydd cwestiwn hunaniaeth Gymreig i’r antur yr ydym wedi ymgymryd â hi gyda sefydlu’r Cynulliad hwn. Gwnaeth Peter Black gyfraniad gwerthfawr drwy esbonio cefndiroedd cymhleth y rhai sydd yn eu dynodi eu hunain yn Gymry. Mae hynny’n wych. Gwnaeth Christine Gwyther yr un fath. Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar eiriau William Graham hefyd.

Mae eraill wedi defnyddio’r ddadl hon i greu anghytgord. Ein bwriad oedd osgoi hynny a dyna pam fod geiriad ein cynnig yn cyfeirio at y dyfodol yn hytrach na’r gorffennol. Nid oeddem am ddannod i neb am y gorffennol, dim ond datgan bwriad clir ynglŷn â’r dyfodol. Mae’n drueni i Huw Lewis ddefnyddio’r ddadl hon i ymosod ar Blaid Cymru ac ar genedlaetholdeb Cymreig. Yr oedd yn ymosodiad ar yr egwyddor o hunaniaeth genedlaethol. Mae’n drueni bod hynny wedi sarnu’r ddadl. Trueni arall yw ei bod yn ymddangos fel pe bai Rhodri Morgan, Prif Weinidog Cymru, wedi rhoi’r ffidil yn y to. Gallem fod wedi cael blwch tic mor ddiweddar â Gorffennaf neu Awst. Mater o ewyllys wleidyddol yn unig ydoedd erioed a hynny ydyw yn awr hefyd. Gwrthodaf gredu nad oes modd goresgyn problemau technegol, biwrocrataidd a chyfrifiadurol er mwyn rhoi i bobl Cymru yr hyn y maent yn ei alw amdano. Gobeithiaf y caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn gydag arddeliad.

Yr ydym wedi esbonio pam na allwn gefnogi gwelliant 1 er bod gennyf y parch mwyaf i’r cymhelliad y tu ôl iddo. Teimlwn y byddai’n gorgymhlethu pethau ac y byddai’n anodd ar lawer ystyr i ddeall ei berwyl.

Credwn fod gwelliant 2 yn ddianghenrhaid, gan nad oes neb yn y Cynulliad wedi argymell gwrthod cymryd rhan yn y cyfrifiad. Er hyn, yr ydym yn derbyn eu dadleuon ar hynny a sylweddolwn y gall hyd yn oed 10,000 neu 20,000 o bobl sydd yn gwrthod llenwi ffurflen y cyfrifiad effeithio’n sylweddol ar y gyllideb Gymreig. Yr ydym yn derbyn hynny. Ni theimlwn fod y gwelliant hwn yn angenrheidiol ond fe’i cefnogwn yn ysbryd cytgord a chydweithio yn hytrach na rhoi rheswm i unrhyw un beidio â chefnogi’r cynnig.

Mae hi’n bwysig bod y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio yn cael ei dderbyn gydag arddeliad. Byddai’n werth anfon cofnod o lawer o’r hyn a lefarwyd heddiw i Lundain. Hoffwn hepgor rhai rhannau ond byddai’n rhaid cynnwys y cyfan, mae’n siŵr. Hoffwn anfon y cofnod yn ei gyfanrwydd i Lundain a’i ddehongli fel hyn: mae pobl Cymru drwy’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi llefaru’n gryf o blaid y cyfle i ddatgan eu cenedligrwydd yn y cyfrifiad ac mae hwn yn ddigwyddiad o’r pwys mwyaf o ran hunan-ddiffiniad a chasglu gwybodaeth; mae pobl Cymru wedi llefaru, felly a ydych yn fodlon mynd yn erbyn barn unedig pobl Cymru drwy eu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a thrwy filoedd o ddatganiadau unigol? Rhaid inni ennill y frwydr hon ac mae modd inni ei hennill drwy sefyll gyda’n gilydd a siarad gydag un llais.